Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on January 12, 2019, 01:41:28 pm

Title: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: quixoticgeek on January 12, 2019, 01:41:28 pm

My physio has suggested that my knee pain is coming about from the amount of float I have on my SPD's, coupled with the small contact area, and that for the amount of riding I'm doing, I'd benefit from moving to road clipless.

Before I hit buy on some PD R550, and a rather expensive pair of Gærne shoes (the only comfortable ones in the shop), is there anything I should be aware of?

What's the best way of working out the correct clear position? Is it something I can extrapolate from my existing SPD shoes/cleat setup?

J
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: rafletcher on January 12, 2019, 02:00:37 pm
Carbon soled shoes would be a good move, to spread the load. Cleat position is personal. Generally you can extrapolate from your SPD cleat position, although personally I tend to run my cleats further back from the “ball of foot over axle” position. It really isn’t any harder to get the cleat position / rotation correct with road clipless than with SPD.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: mattc on January 12, 2019, 02:13:30 pm
I VERY much doubt that a "small contact area" could produce knee pain  :hand:


(I'm also VERY sceptical about the bigger road pedals helping with foot pain - assuming one has a stiff sole such as modern carbon-thingies - but public opinion is less clear-cut on that one ... )
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Brucey on January 12, 2019, 02:22:55 pm
it would be worth asking your physio what their logic is, exactly.

  IME knee pain is most often caused by too little float and/or bad cleat positioning. Various combinations of SPD cleat and SPD pedal will give different amounts of float. You may be 'a foot twister' (and need a lot of float) or not. You may have had the cleats set imperfectly regardless.


Similarly IME the 'small contact area' becomes problematic in two main ways;

1) if your shoes are no good and cause increased loading through the shoe sole
2) if the cleat is positioned wrongly (in a lateral sense) and causes your foot to tilt.

on the latter point it is very common on SPDs that the cleat is set too far inboard (to allow the shoe/foot to clear the crank) and this causes the foot to tilt outwards (and this can cause all kinds of pain to manifest itself if you ride far enough).  If you have obvious rub marks outboard of the cleat area (but not so much inboard) this is most likely the case, and the setup then becomes unusually sensitive to minor variations in how the shoe sole bears against the rest of the pedal. Note that some pedal systems with small bindings (eg speedplay) have a choice of spindle length and the shortest of these corresponds with the standard setting for SPD pedals. IIRC this is to have the cleat centreline ~55mm from the crank  (more exactly the shoulder on the pedal spindle). Plenty of SPD users would benefit from longer spindles. 

I don't have wide feet and even so I struggle to get an SPD cleat centred under my foot; to test this I ride for a bit on a set of SPDs that are so worn (worn by someone else) that they don't support the foot if it tilts outboard. With this setup I immediately notice a lateral movement of the cleat that is as small as 2mm. Since pedals can be spaced out (using washers) by about 2mm this is an easy route for giving you more  adjustment if this is necessary.

SPD-SLs have a wider cleat and it is less important if it is exactly centred (laterally) beneath the foot. However there are only three choices for float (none, 2 degrees or 6 degrees),  and setup is just as important as with regular SPDs. Three-bolt cleats very soon wear and if they wear unevenly the foot can also tilt when it is in the pedal. I have seen folk fall over on slippy surfaces when wearing three-bolt cleats and injure themselves. The worst injury caused by walking on three bolt cleats I have seen was a (properly) broken leg.

So I would probably do a bit more research and a bit more experimentation before jumping ship and buying new shoes and new pedals; you are potentially just dialling in a load more variables into a problem that you didn't understand properly to start with.

BTW you can modify SPD cleats to give more or less float without great difficulty; this may allow you to find out what suits you in this regard.

Also note that there is a problem with SPDs; making very small changes in the angle of the cleat is difficult; the cleat tends to settle back into its previous position. To try different angles, it is often easiest if you alter the longitudinal position of the cleat when you change the angle too.

cheers
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: grams on January 12, 2019, 07:55:35 pm
One thing to reiterate is that SPD-SL cleats are a wear item and you will likely end up replacing them more often than anything else on the bike - if your experience is anything like mine was, it'll be a *lot* more often. They're not cheap either, especially if you end up paying RRP!

Other types of cleats last much better - I've heard Speedplays are the best road style cleat in this regard.

(or stick to SPDs)
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Frank9755 on January 12, 2019, 10:25:29 pm
It sounds unlikely based on what you say.  I'd agree with the comments above, in particular Matt's scepticism and Brucey's extremely detailed answer. 

It is unlikely you will be able to solve a problem like knee pain just by buying a different piece of kit.  It's much more likely that you will fix it by making a subtle adjustment.  I'd suggest going to a bike fitter and getting a cleat fit before buying new stuff. 

You may decide to change to a different pedal system at some point but plenty of people ride TCR with SPDs.  FWIW I did in 2016 (although I don't currently use them).

Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: DuncanM on January 12, 2019, 10:34:19 pm
What does the physio think that these issues with your pedal system are actually doing to your knee(s)? Do you have some specific muscle imbalance caused by using the outer muscles over your inner ones or something?
As the others have said, the usual suspects for knee issues cause by pedal systems are:

While there has been much debate, I don't think anyone has demonstrated any actual benefit in road pedals vs MTB ones. Also, road pedals mean that any walking you do requires a very strange gait, and wears out your cleats in no time.

If you do decide to buy the road setup stuff, I'd be very wary of trying to extrapolate the cleat position - not only are they really difficult to compare, but it might be that's what's causing the problem in the first place! Either way, Frank's suggestion of a proper bike fit is probably worth it...
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: zigzag on January 12, 2019, 10:43:10 pm
i'm fairly fortunate in this regard as i can ride any system (road/mtb/flat) without incurring any ache or pain anywhere. purely by preference and feel i'd always go for spd-sl with zero float cleats, provided i will not need to be walking on mud, wet sand, snow etc.
all other systems are a compromise for riding/pedaling a bike, but excel (how much - depending on scenarios and circumstances) when off the bike.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Morbihan on January 13, 2019, 02:29:50 am
It appears to be a minefield subject and here is my can of gasoline to throw fire on the confusion of your resolution. ;)

I have, until recently, used SPD-SL extensively including on long distance/ultra rides. I am lucky enough to have found comfortable shoes and there is enough options with cleat movement to work through pretty much all of knee pain issues to date. My personal situation is that I came to cycling as a middle aged ex rugby player/ distance runner who is tending towards clydesdale and had consequently put a fair amount of mileage on cartilage etc. (Several clean ups but no major surgeries)
I managed to ride comfortably (in the cleat/knee department at least) through one and a half TCR's (comfortable being a relative term in those situations of course)  In fact, on previous shorter tests I had binned thoughts of using MTB type cleats ultras due to discomfort from both shoe and cleat after many hours in the saddle and found the road cleats better.
I did get knee pain when racing though, but have concluded that it is from pushing a big gear/mashing with a lot of force. (I use a 53/11 when racing)
I recently experimented with flat pedals for non racing rides, and quite frankly its been a revelation. I had initially tried them after having issues with mounting/dismounting when fatigued on a loaded bike in hilly terrain. I had assumed that they would feel "floppy" and my feet would be uncomfortable after longer day rides. But thus far its been amazing. Sure the power transfer is diminished, but comfort wise, and hopping off the bike is s easy.  I just don't seem to notice knee/tendon issues at all. Aces.
I haven't put any back to back super long rides in, which could of course throw up issues, and I do appreciate that it is a very subjective topic. Different strokes for different folks etc.
I hope you get to the bottom of your issues, you are riding TCR this year right?
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Karla on January 13, 2019, 03:41:49 am
If you want float, Look have more than SPD-SL I think?  Speedplay certainly do.  Beware too much float though: I went through a similar process and after years decided that too much float on my Looks was encouraging me to ride in a bad position and exacerbating the problem.  I quite like Time now: allows for if you need it but provides some gentle encouragement to keep your feet pointing forwards.

Listen to your physio over and above a bunch of randommers on the internet though! the
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 13, 2019, 04:28:17 am
Try with ball of foot just fractionally forward of axle, with cleats set fairly wide on pedals and straight, and then see which way your feet want to float when you ride. The adjust accordingly. Pedal with decent cadence, not pedal mashing.

I use VP cleats rather than Shimano. They are easier to replace as they split in two making it easier to refit in same position. Also really cheap from PX. As said above all wide cleats are a bit slippery when walking (Look are the worst!) especially as they wear. Spd SL tend to have rubber feet which helps. I don't find it a problem....just be aware.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/PEVPARCSL/vp-arc-sl-shimano-spd-sl-compatible-road-cleats-with-exact-replacement
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: rafletcher on January 13, 2019, 11:07:39 am
As an aside, I ride Look on the road. They’re certainly not a compromise option, especially if you use the ones without the anti-slip/squeak rubber inserts. As to off the bike wear, I carry and use (and always have) cleat covers.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Brucey on January 13, 2019, 01:02:58 pm
some additional comments;

clipless pedals vary in how they transition from 'float' to 'release'.  When pedalling normally there isn't much difference in the feel provided your feet are within the 'float' range. However under some circumstances such as riding out of the saddle and/or sprinting, you may find yourself starting to bang into the 'release' part of the movement.    Having been brought up on clips and straps I'd say that for short intense efforts of this type nothing beats the feel of clips and (freshly tightened) straps, even if you are happy running all day with the straps set fairly loose otherwise.  [Not everyone feels the same but I can't be alone in feeling this way because early clipless systems often didn't have float at all and/or they had release tension that the rider could vary using a little lever or something.]   Second best for this would be a three-bolt cleat with a fairly abrupt transition, but if the tension is set so that you feel '100% secure' then the force required to release is usually unacceptably high the rest of the time.

 By contrast I don't feel as secure when sprinting hard using SPDs; the transition into the release is 'soft' and furthermore the width of the pedal usually doesn't offer enough support when you are pushing at all kinds of crazy angles.  This makes me think that I wouldn't get on at all well with pedals that release with angle only.

However most riders don't ever sprint that hard or do so optionally/sufficiently infrequently that it isn't a major consideration; there are higher priorities.  If riding any distance, I'd always put correct cleat setting/float provision first, before any other considerations.

 After many years I worked out that I needed float in the my right foot, not so much my left. I ended up filing new cleats (for clips and straps) so that the slot was an hourglass shape in the right cleat. This gave me enough float even with brand new cleats; before I worked this out, I was only happy on slightly worn cleats. 

For touring it is a toss-up for me between SPDs and clips and straps, even now.  For touring with clips and straps I use twin straps (with the second strap set through the holes in the back of the pedal cage) and shoes which don't have a cleat but do have ridges/wide grooves in the sole which engage slightly with the pedal cage.   This arrangement means I can ride all day with the straps fairly loose in perfect comfort. If I want to get a real shift on I tighten the straps. The rearmost strap goes around a narrower part of the foot and it soon become impossible to pull your foot out accidentally, cleat or no. 'Big deal' I hear you say; a good clipless system will work as well surely?  It might, but there isn't one which will also let you move your foot back and forth in the  pedal; this means that you can choose your pedal action to suit the circumstances; when climbing I quite often slide my foot back in the pedal and use a more exaggerated ankling motion than normal for a while; this gives my main leg muscles a bit of a rest, which is very welcome on a climb that is an hour long or more. I wouldn't choose pedal all day like this, but it is good to have a choice. [I suspect that many flat pedal users do this too, without even knowing BTW]. With standard cleats or any clipless system the longitudinal cleat position is more of a compromise.

cheers
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Giropaul on January 13, 2019, 03:01:26 pm
Are your current spd cleats on a shoe with deep treads ( mountain bike) or a smooth bottom? If the latter, are you using stabilisers ( things that bolt between your sole and the cleat). These are very important if you are using road-type flat sole shoes, otherwise your foot can rock on the pedal, and this can easily cause knee issues.

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Shimano-SH40-SPD-Cleat-Stabilizing-Adapter_31373.htm?sku=71486&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIid7QqIPr3wIVbpPtCh32xgUfEAQYAyABEgJPd_D_BwE
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Frank9755 on January 13, 2019, 05:48:09 pm
. Sure the power transfer is diminished,

That's not what people who have analysed it, such as Andrew Coggan, say. There are good reasons to use clipless systems but better power transfer is not one of them!
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: mattc on January 13, 2019, 06:18:52 pm
. Sure the power transfer is diminished,

That's not what people who have analysed it, such as Andrew Coggan, say. There are good reasons to use couples systems but better power transfer is not one of them!
[I assume the above refers to SPD compared to SPD-SL and similar?!]

Frank, do you have a source for that? I'd be really interested to see an actual study; certainly I have never found evidence that power transfer IS less with SPD!

(and that's despite thousands of people simply stating that it is so, with the same certainty that the earth is round)
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Brucey on January 13, 2019, 06:35:13 pm
I think that comment above was made in relation to flat pedals vs clipless/clipped, not SPD vs SPD-SL

You can pedal all day (in a 'steady state' if you like)  on flat pedals and it will make stuff-all difference. But if you are concentrating more on getting a move on, (or 'less on the steadyness, more on getting into a state' as one wag put it) then you are better of with some kind of retention.

My carrier bike has flats on, and my hack bike has SPD/flats on, and on the latter I sometimes I don't bother to clip in with both feet eg if I am approaching a red light. However if I forget, and the lights change, I pull my feet straight off the pedals. Clearly when I'm clipped in (or think I am)  I pull up more than I imagine, even under non-demanding conditions.

For 11/10ths efforts, you just need to be clipped in, period.

cheers
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: bludger on January 13, 2019, 08:59:03 pm
I recently sorted out some knee pain on my own, which had only come about since getting a new bike in November. To begin with I suspected the cleat position, but since I'd had the same cleats for ages before the new bike I knew this was baloney.

Basically I'd been running too long a stem, which had made me pitch my weight on my knees in an odd way. took a week off the bike, fitted a short and flipped stem, pain's a goner.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Frank9755 on January 13, 2019, 09:51:22 pm

That's not what people who have analysed it, such as Andrew Coggan, say. There are good reasons to use couples systems but better power transfer is not one of them!
[I assume the above refers to SPD compared to SPD-SL and similar?!]

Frank, do you have a source for that? I'd be really interested to see an actual study; certainly I have never found evidence that power transfer IS less with SPD!

(and that's despite thousands of people simply stating that it is so, with the same certainty that the earth is round)

Brucey is right, it is for flat pedals vs clipless in general.  I expect it is even less likely that there would be a measureable difference between different types of clipless systems (if someone asserts that there is, ask them where the energy is going)

Andrew Coggan did the original work.  I can't find links to his presentation but here are a couple of references:
http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/64627-aero-data-on-brakes/&do=findComment&comment=1000212 (http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/64627-aero-data-on-brakes/&do=findComment&comment=1000212)
https://www.bikejames.com/strength/why-pedaling-efficiency-has-nothing-to-do-with-your-pedals/ (https://www.bikejames.com/strength/why-pedaling-efficiency-has-nothing-to-do-with-your-pedals/)
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Anybody_here_cycle_in_straps_vs._clip_in_P5429441/ (https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Anybody_here_cycle_in_straps_vs._clip_in_P5429441/)

GCN did something on it more recently:
https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535 (https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535)
It's a video but the punchline is 'Flat pedals seem to be a tiny bit more efficient than your clipless ones...'

Clipless (or clips and straps) are definitely needed for road racing.  Any situation where your foot is likely to come off the pedal, such as sprinting, or making an attack involving changing gear under load, they reduce the risk of a costly mistake.  But for steady state efforts, even at high power, that doesn't apply.  It's a question of what your knees, ankles, feet, cope best with, and what you find most pleasing to use. 
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: quixoticgeek on January 13, 2019, 10:10:21 pm
Brucey is right, it is for flat pedals vs clipless in general.  I expect it is even less likely that there would be a measureable difference between different types of clipless systems (if someone asserts that there is, ask them where the energy is going)

Andrew Coggan did the original work.  I can't find links to his presentation but here are a couple of references:
http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/64627-aero-data-on-brakes/&do=findComment&comment=1000212 (http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/64627-aero-data-on-brakes/&do=findComment&comment=1000212)
https://www.bikejames.com/strength/why-pedaling-efficiency-has-nothing-to-do-with-your-pedals/ (https://www.bikejames.com/strength/why-pedaling-efficiency-has-nothing-to-do-with-your-pedals/)
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Anybody_here_cycle_in_straps_vs._clip_in_P5429441/ (https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Anybody_here_cycle_in_straps_vs._clip_in_P5429441/)

GCN did something on it more recently:
https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535 (https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535)
It's a video but the punchline is 'Flat pedals seem to be a tiny bit more efficient than your clipless ones...'

Clipless (or clips and straps) are definitely needed for road racing.  Any situation where your foot is likely to come off the pedal, such as sprinting, or making an attack involving changing gear under load, they reduce the risk of a costly mistake.  But for steady state efforts, even at high power, that doesn't apply.  It's a question of what your knees, ankles, feet, cope best with, and what you find most pleasing to use.

I take it this is talking about bunched racing? The sort of racing I'm doing is unlikely to have any attacking, bursting, sprinting (except maybe from a dog)?

I've been riding on flats for the last few months as my SPD shoes just aren't comfortable for more than a couple of hours at a time (ah the lessons you only learn expensively, and after a long period...). I started with SPD rather than SPD-SL, as the shoes tend to allow easier walking, and when I started out, I was walking a lot of hills. Now I'm getting fitter, I'm walking fewer hills.

It sounds unlikely based on what you say.  I'd agree with the comments above, in particular Matt's scepticism and Brucey's extremely detailed answer. 

It is unlikely you will be able to solve a problem like knee pain just by buying a different piece of kit.  It's much more likely that you will fix it by making a subtle adjustment.  I'd suggest going to a bike fitter and getting a cleat fit before buying new stuff. 

You may decide to change to a different pedal system at some point but plenty of people ride TCR with SPDs.  FWIW I did in 2016 (although I don't currently use them).

I had a bike fit and cleat fit, for my SPD's, in September 2017, 13000km ago. But if I swap from SPD to SPD-SL, then I'm not sure how that transfers. That said, I've been struggling to get on with the SPD's I have. Whether that is the shoes, or the pedals, or the combination, I'm not sure. Physio who's a triathlete suggests that not being clipped in a lot, and the amount of float on the SPD's is at the very least not helping my knees.

Even if I stick with SPD, rather than SPD-SL, I'm gonna need new shoes, but if I'm going to get new shoes anyway, why not swap to SPD-SL?

I'm not certain my reasoning here is strong for any one setup. I could just get a better set of totally flat pedals, and not worry about being clipped in.

Current setup is Specialized Rime Expert MTB shoes, Specialized blue insoles, and Shimano M-324 pedals, Or the other side of the pedals, and my normal walking shoes.

J
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: grams on January 13, 2019, 10:21:30 pm
I started with SPD rather than SPD-SL, as the shoes tend to allow easier walking, and when I started out, I was walking a lot of hills. Now I'm getting fitter, I'm walking fewer hills.

Possibly the problem is your shoes rather than your cleats? My walkable touring shoes put pressure in all sorts of funny places my road shoes don't.

Quote
Even if I stick with SPD, rather than SPD-SL, I'm gonna need new shoes, but if I'm going to get new shoes anyway, why not swap to SPD-SL?

So my post above about the endless ongoing expense...

Also they clog with mud and won't clip in (requiring much scraping) at the slightest opportunity. I hope you don't do much sneaking behind bushes for a wee...
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: quixoticgeek on January 13, 2019, 10:40:36 pm
I started with SPD rather than SPD-SL, as the shoes tend to allow easier walking, and when I started out, I was walking a lot of hills. Now I'm getting fitter, I'm walking fewer hills.

Possibly the problem is your shoes rather than your cleats? My walkable touring shoes put pressure in all sorts of funny places my road shoes don't.

So if I'm replacing the shoes anyway, why not replace the pedals at the same time?

Quote

Quote
Even if I stick with SPD, rather than SPD-SL, I'm gonna need new shoes, but if I'm going to get new shoes anyway, why not swap to SPD-SL?

So my post above about the endless ongoing expense...

Also they clog with mud and won't clip in (requiring much scraping) at the slightest opportunity. I hope you don't do much sneaking behind bushes for a wee...

Wait, which ones clog with mud?

As for nipping behind a bush to pee, in .nl? Not really, as the other side of the bush just means you're visible to different group of people, as you can see for quite a distance in the polder landscape.

J
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: grams on January 13, 2019, 11:14:56 pm
[So if I'm replacing the shoes anyway, why not replace the pedals at the same time?

Because SPD-SLs have a lot of downsides vs SPDs.

Quote
Wait, which ones clog with mud?

The slot along the rear edge of SPD-SL cleats is a mud and stone trap.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Brucey on January 14, 2019, 01:07:40 am
Quote from: quixoticgeek
…..Whether that is the shoes, or the pedals, or the combination, I'm not sure. Physio who's a triathlete suggests that not being clipped in a lot, and the amount of float on the SPD's is at the very least not helping my knees.....

I'm still curious as to what is meant by this; too much, too little, transition into release is wrong...  what???? :o.

  If you don't know find out. Get a second opinion. Understand what exactly is painful and understand the mechanism this is thought to be the cause of this knee pain.

 Knee pain is a serious business and (apparently randomly) buying different pedals and shoes without understanding the true nature of your problem is unlikely to fix it except by accident. A large number of fellow cyclists I have known have had battles with knee pain and in order of causation it has been

1) cleats set wrongly

2) cleats without enough float

3) saddle set too low

4) saddle set too high or other fault in riding position

The third of these above is a tricky one; in its most common form  it only starts to manifest itself as you start to do lots of miles.  As I understand it the vastus medialis is liable to end up underdeveloped if you ride with the saddle too low (it sees most action as the leg come close to being straight), and this tends to pull the kneecap to the outside, and wears the cartilage away. Very painful, and it can ultimately result in you not being able to ride a bike any more.

cheers
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Karla on January 14, 2019, 01:54:56 am
Get the road pedals, it will wind up the crusty touring crowd if nothing else  :demon:
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Frank9755 on January 14, 2019, 05:26:54 am
Yes, road racing means bunch start racing. Same would apply to any group ride with sudden changes of pace. TCR is a time trial. No need to change pace suddenly or sprint.  The issue is shifting under load, not high cadence. I can spin up to 180 with flat pedals but my feet are very likely to slip or come out of I shift while I'm doing it!

Get a new cleat fit. Your legs and back will have changed massively after 13000km. What was right then is unlikely to be right now.

Most people will have road cleats so that would be the conservative choice. If you really want to annoy both the crustys and the conservative wannabe racers (and the actual (or ex-?) racers like Karla), skip the cleat fit, go for flat pedals, put your feet wherever it is comfortable and revel in the cognitive dissonance you encounter!

Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Frank9755 on January 14, 2019, 06:01:47 am
Quote from: quixoticgeek
…..Whether that is the shoes, or the pedals, or the combination, I'm not sure. Physio who's a triathlete suggests that not being clipped in a lot, and the amount of float on the SPD's is at the very least not helping my knees.....

I'm still curious as to what is meant by this; too much, too little, transition into release is wrong...  what???? :o.

  If you don't know find out. Get a second opinion. Understand what exactly is painful and understand the mechanism this is thought to be the cause of this knee pain.

 Knee pain is a serious business and (apparently randomly) buying different pedals and shoes without understanding the true nature of your problem is unlikely to fix it except by accident. A large number of fellow cyclists I have known have had battles with knee pain and in order of causation it has been

1) cleats set wrongly

2) cleats without enough float

3) saddle set too low

4) saddle set too high or other fault in riding position

The third of these above is a tricky one; in its most common form  it only starts to manifest itself as you start to do lots of miles.  As I understand it the vastus medialis is liable to end up underdeveloped if you ride with the saddle too low (it sees most action as the leg come close to being straight), and this tends to pull the kneecap to the outside, and wears the cartilage away. Very painful, and it can ultimately result in you not being able to ride a bike any more.

cheers

This is spot on. 

I've had knee pain from saddle too high, from saddle too low and from saddle too far forward and from cleats misaglined.  I've also had shin pain from cleats too far forward and achilles pain from saddle too high. 

The pain is in different places in your knee, or elsewhere, depending on the cause.  So, the solutions are different.  There's loads of stuff written about this if you search for 'cycling knee pain'.  Loads of people have it and the solutions are simple once you have diagnosed it right.  But for no types of pain is 'buy new kit and expect it to go away' the solution!   

NB for TCR this is really important.  Many people develop pains of some sort round about day 3 that require some sort of adjustment.  When you have ridden a really long distance in just three days, your legs change.  They might get tighter or more flexible.  People who can't work out what to do if they get a pain are very likely to end up scratching.  I had to make significant adjustments 3-4 days in on both TCR and IndyPac to setups that were comfortable at the start and that I had previously used with no problems on other, less-long rides. 

Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Giropaul on January 14, 2019, 09:47:54 am
Another thing to consider, that goes back to my comments on stabilisers, is wear to the sole of your existing shoes.
With mountain-bike type shoes the the thick sole treads form the stabiliser function. Wear from walking etc and minor damage from stones etc can alter the shape, meaning that the foot can either be less stable (rocking left side to right side of the shoe), or even alter the angle of the foot in these directions.
Quite a few attendees at Wattbike sessions I see use road shoes with the spd( two bolt) cleat. Several experienced some issues before we showed them the Shimano stabilisers I mentioned further up this thread. Adrian Timmis who, if you don’t recognise his name, is one of the most respected bike fitters and especially shoe plate/ custom insole fitters, is very much of this view.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: bobb on January 14, 2019, 10:10:35 am
Another thing to consider (other than the saddle height, cleat position stuff) is an even pedalling style. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I've noticed lots of people who maybe naturally bend one knee out, or maybe have a heel out on every stroke. I have no idea if that's fixable (or even a problem) but it's worth considering...
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Brucey on January 14, 2019, 04:23:08 pm
re the stabilising function mentioned by Giropaul; yes you shouldn't use two-bolt cleats on shoes without a sole recess unless you also have 'pontoon' like stabilisers or similar. Shimano (and others) don't make this adequately clear when they say some shoes are both SPD SL and SPD compatible, but they definitely mean them to be used, not just for SPD cleats to be screwed on directly to the sole so they stick out.

However it is very much the best idea if you are able to set up the cleat so that it is laterally positioned in such a way as (for steady state efforts) you don't really need stabilisers; hence my comment earlier about being very careful about this setting and even doing test rides on pedals which don't offer any support outside the cleat area.

 If you have the support but don't really need it, such things as wear will both be reduced and of less significant effect.

A large fraction of SPD users would benefit from more space between the pedal centreline and the crank. I mentioned packing washers before but for larger changes (thus converting a standard SPD pedal to about the same spacing as the longest speedplay pedal spindle more or less) pedal extenders are a good idea. They cost about £15 and can be used with any 9/16" threaded spindle. Unfortunately the minimum length of the extender is about 14mm or something, so no good for small changes.

It is also worth just mentioning that when shimano were pushing two-bolt SPD for road racing (circa ~1993 ?) they produced two pedals Dura-Ace  PD-7410 and Ultegra PD-6500 which are different from any SPD before or since; they were designed for cleats SM-SH70 and SM-SH71 (although they will work with SM-SH51 etc) and they have ~53mm offset of the pedal centreline from the spindle shoulder. This gives ~4mm narrower Q, if you have narrow enough feet to be able to use the reduced offset.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-x3dUS1N6oRI/T7VF00PySgI/AAAAAAAADV4/Y41rCsTXnnA/s520/IMG_0668.JPG)
PD-6500 ultegra SPD

(http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-1rmgckn/products/4606/images/49853/TSR_Watermark_-_9609__11781.1470706422.1280.1280.JPG?c=2)
PD-7410 complete with cleats

(http://www.veloruf.de/bild2cache/velozenbit_katalog_cat_50000040_50000040_1_jpg-3000-2880.jpg)
2002 vintage shimano 'road' cleat application table, including SPD-R cleats (remember them?) but also showing SPD cleats

One of the big differences in SM-SH70/71 is that the lateral adjustment available for the cleat is very much greater than with SM-SH51/56 cleats; however you can only take advantage of this (and fit the stabilisers of course) if you have non-recess type shoe sole.

It is also worth mentioning that in ~1997 shimano revised their SPD pedals; they retained the part numbers SM-SH51 and SM-SH56 for the standard SPD cleats but before and after this date the cleats themselves are different as are the pedals themselves. New cleats in older pedals means less float. Old style cleats in newer pedals means more float than normal. The revised claw design is the big difference between (say) PD-M323 and PD-M324.

cheers
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: mattc on January 14, 2019, 05:56:35 pm
Compressed for neatness:
(click to show/hide)
... but here's the highlight:
GCN did something on it more recently:
https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535 (https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535)
It's a video but the punchline is 'Flat pedals seem to be a tiny bit more efficient than your clipless ones...'
Good googling - thanks!

(Now I wonder what %age of roadies can actually be convinced of this. My success so far is a very round number ... )
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: GrahamG on January 14, 2019, 06:10:20 pm




I use VP cleats rather than Shimano. They are easier to replace as they split in two making it easier to refit in same position. Also really cheap from PX. As said above all wide cleats are a bit slippery when walking (Look are the worst!) especially as they wear. Spd SL tend to have rubber feet which helps. I don't find it a problem....just be aware.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/PEVPARCSL/vp-arc-sl-shimano-spd-sl-compatible-road-cleats-with-exact-replacement

Thanks for the tip, was totally unaware of these

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Brucey on January 14, 2019, 06:27:22 pm
Compressed for neatness:
(click to show/hide)
... but here's the highlight:
GCN did something on it more recently:
https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535 (https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535)
It's a video but the punchline is 'Flat pedals seem to be a tiny bit more efficient than your clipless ones...'
Good googling - thanks!

(Now I wonder what %age of roadies can actually be convinced of this. My success so far is a very round number ... )

for many years I was a stick-in the mud and didn't change from clips and straps. It is possible that I did the right thing; with the straps loose, I seemed to pedal very comfortably and efficiently, at least for 'steady state' efforts.

Hypothesis; if you feel as if your foot might slip lengthwise, does this somehow encourage you not to make (worthless) radially directed effort on the pedal?  Pushing on the pedal tangentially is what propels you down the road; pushing any other direction is essentially wasted effort.

cheers
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: mattc on January 14, 2019, 06:41:30 pm
...

Hypothesis; if you feel as if your foot might slip lengthwise, does this somehow encourage you not to make (worthless) radially directed effort on the pedal?  Pushing on the pedal tangentially is what propels you down the road; pushing any other direction is essentially wasted effort.

The trouble with your hypothesis is that I doubt anyone has a clue how much radial force riders do apply! It sounds feasible but very difficult to measure properly.

(There must be a PhD in this stuff somewhere. Although funding got a lot scarcer a few weeks back ... )
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: bludger on January 14, 2019, 06:49:51 pm
I have been interested in mid foot pedalling for a little while, on an injury prevention basis. Apparently that helps keep the knee Gremlins away 🤔
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: DuncanM on January 14, 2019, 07:16:31 pm
...

Hypothesis; if you feel as if your foot might slip lengthwise, does this somehow encourage you not to make (worthless) radially directed effort on the pedal?  Pushing on the pedal tangentially is what propels you down the road; pushing any other direction is essentially wasted effort.

The trouble with your hypothesis is that I doubt anyone has a clue how much radial force riders do apply! It sounds feasible but very difficult to measure properly.

(There must be a PhD in this stuff somewhere. Although funding got a lot scarcer a few weeks back ... )
The direct force pedal power meters like Garmin Vectors and Powertap P1s should be able to work this stuff out. I don't know if "Garmin Cycling Dynamics" can show you this stuff though.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Brucey on January 14, 2019, 07:57:41 pm
I see what your mean but it occurs to me there are passively generated (eg inertial) forces that exist anyway and discriminating those from intentional forces might be difficult, and sometimes some passive effort might be worthwhile.

So for example a radial force with the cranks horizontal might usually be mostly wasted effort. However at the bottom of the pedal stroke the downwards going  leg has inertia but this is only efficiently converted to rotation provided various joints (eg the ankle) are at least held steady; if you suddenly let your ankle joint go floppy near the bottom of the pedal stroke it is quite possible that the leg's downwards inertia would be wasted and  the pedalling action would become inefficient. 

Like Matt says there might be a PhD in this; it certainly ain't going to be simple....

cheers
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: rogerzilla on January 14, 2019, 08:24:24 pm
SPD-SL is nicer to pedal but a complete PITA in most other respects - walking, clipping in, durability of cleats.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Karla on January 15, 2019, 03:28:50 am
...

Hypothesis; if you feel as if your foot might slip lengthwise, does this somehow encourage you not to make (worthless) radially directed effort on the pedal?  Pushing on the pedal tangentially is what propels you down the road; pushing any other direction is essentially wasted effort.

The trouble with your hypothesis is that I doubt anyone has a clue how much radial force riders do apply! It sounds feasible but very difficult to measure properly.

(There must be a PhD in this stuff somewhere. Although funding got a lot scarcer a few weeks back ... )

I think Xavier Disley (Aerocoach)'s PhD was on pedalling Q factor, so you should ring him up and ask where to get funding for this one  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: mattc on January 15, 2019, 10:24:12 am
I think this could really go somewhere, with the right backing. I shall call it "Marginal Gains" (which I think is a catchy label).
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: Brucey on January 15, 2019, 11:28:22 am
in winter it could be 'marginal chilblains'…..?


{IGMC.....}
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: whosatthewheel on January 15, 2019, 11:40:14 am

My physio has suggested that my knee pain is coming about from the amount of float I have on my SPD's, coupled with the small contact area, and that for the amount of riding I'm doing, I'd benefit from moving to road clipless.

Before I hit buy on some PD R550, and a rather expensive pair of Gærne shoes (the only comfortable ones in the shop), is there anything I should be aware of?

What's the best way of working out the correct clear position? Is it something I can extrapolate from my existing SPD shoes/cleat setup?

J

I think your physio is talking nonsense.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: rogerzilla on January 15, 2019, 05:39:12 pm
Has your physio suggested lower leg raises to wake up the VMO muscle?  If you've recently started riding more, the quadriceps often develop in an unbalanced way and pull the kneecap outwards as you pedal.  The VMO pulls the other way and keeps it in line.  Generally, you only need to do the exercise for a couple of weeks and then it behaves itself for ever (or as long as you keep riding).

What is your saddle height from BB spindle to saddle top, as a percentage of inside leg?  If it's below 85%, you're asking for trouble as you're trying to put power through a very bent knee.  Mine's at 95%, which is admittedly at the upper end of the scale, but I never get knee problems.

As bobb with the cool hair points out, you should check your pedalling style.  Racers used to be taught to brush the top tube with their knees, in the days of horizontal top tubes.  You shouldn't ride with your knees stuck out.

Float is generally a good thing.  if you have rotational AND lateral float*, even better.

*I don't know what modern pedal system has lateral float, but the original Time system, as used by Indurain et al, used it a a USP when it came out.
Title: Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
Post by: mattc on January 20, 2019, 02:30:37 pm
Compressed for neatness:
(click to show/hide)
... but here's the highlight:
GCN did something on it more recently:
https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535 (https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535)
It's a video but the punchline is 'Flat pedals seem to be a tiny bit more efficient than your clipless ones...'
Good googling - thanks!

(Now I wonder what %age of roadies can actually be convinced of this. My success so far is a very round number ... )

I also found this reference to it:

https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40013&t=12890212&sid=6109a7aa24f0a87e8a3b0a4a4987c705&start=20#p17992497