Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => Arts and Entertainment => Topic started by: Feanor on January 20, 2019, 09:16:43 pm

Title: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Feanor on January 20, 2019, 09:16:43 pm
I've had reasonably decent hifi systems since I was a PSO 30 years ago.
This eventually morphed into a Linn-Naim tri amped Sondek Isobarik system.

Over the years,  what with kids and all, it rather fell into disuse.
Recently, we got a SONOS speaker to stream choons from a phone to something a bit better.
I then got a SONOS connect, which plugs into a Line Input on a normal amp.

This has totally transfomed my music experience.
Its the best input device into a trad hifi ever.

It Just Works, and the source quality is excellent.
I've been sat in front of it for hours re-living my youth!

Same choons stream to speakers in other rooms too.
And it is bi-directional, and can stream the Sondek's scratchings to the rest of the system.

Well impressed.
SONOS. Just works.

Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: PeterM on January 20, 2019, 09:20:06 pm
Yep, Sonos is brilliant. It’s so good it’s now spread into five rooms of the house after initially colonising the dining room...
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: rafletcher on January 20, 2019, 09:49:01 pm
Yep another vote. We have a Playbase for TV plus tunes in the lounge, and I have a Play One in the shed/workshop/man cave.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 20, 2019, 10:18:05 pm
I bought a couple of Sonos speakers late last year. Then I bought some more. They've populated every room. I'm tempted by the garage and summer house.

I love them. It's brilliant to just fire up some tunes and have them wherever you are, the bathroom, the bedroom, my remote command centre, the living room, the kitchen.

Probably the best wireless set-up and indeed, it just works and they sound great.

It's probably fortunate I have a detached house. The cats are less impressed as is my wife, who likes to describe my musical preferences as 'miserable girls singing in bathrooms.' Yeah, well, now they can sing in all the rooms.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Feanor on January 21, 2019, 07:03:19 pm
[…] my wife, who likes to describe my musical preferences as 'miserable girls singing in bathrooms.' […]

Likewise, Mrs F describes some of the female Celtic singists as 'Another Waily Wummin'.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: geraldc on January 21, 2019, 08:23:59 pm
We bought a couple of play 5s. We love them. The biggest revelation was realising we didn't miss stereo, when we decided to run them independently.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: pdm on January 21, 2019, 08:51:41 pm
Sonos Play 5s have enough speaker units inside to play stereo as individual units when placed horizontally. The Play 1s & Play 3s do not.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 21, 2019, 09:56:10 pm
I can't say the lack of stereo bothers me either, I did buy a pair originally as a stereo pair for the remote command centre, but after a couple of days decided that I wanted one in the living room. And so on.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Redlight on January 21, 2019, 10:34:32 pm
[…] my wife, who likes to describe my musical preferences as 'miserable girls singing in bathrooms.' […]

Likewise, Mrs F describes some of the female Celtic singists as 'Another Waily Wummin'.

My late wife used to refer to Kate Bush, of whom I was a fan, as "Wailing Winnie"  ::-)
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: sg37409 on January 22, 2019, 11:17:25 pm
Its possibly my router/wifi but I find the app can take time to connect and loses connection sometimes.

I have my turntable connected to an older (single) play5 and I have a play3 in the kitchen/dining room. I really love the sound quality.
I have a NAS drive with my cd's and downloads on it.

I rarely if ever use the grouping function, but I love the sound quality.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: geraldc on January 22, 2019, 11:25:49 pm
It was my wife who got interested in the Sonos system. I was surprised she was willing to spend so much money, then I found out she'd actually been considering a Devialet wireless speaker, and so a Sonos seemed a positive bargain.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 23, 2019, 08:03:56 am
I think it's lost a connection once and required a reboot, but I think that's better-than-average-for-wifi. I like to wander around the house with the music playing everywhere, which is nice. They only occasional issues I've had are with AirPlay, that might in part be due to the fact that I have a mix of Sonos One and Play:1 (the latter I didn't realise didn't support AirPlay, though you can group them with the Ones), or it might just be AirPlay. Not a big deal, it's once in the blue moon and the only time I used Airplay if I'm playing music from my iMac in the remote command centre. Generally, I'll just use the Sonos app on my phone.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 23, 2019, 10:04:29 am
(Looks at prices, recoils in horror)
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: sg37409 on January 23, 2019, 02:32:04 pm
Does anyone use / like the amazon alexa integrated Sonos speakers ? Mine are from before these were launched, and I've wondered if that could be a better option than relying on the app on my iPhone.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: pdm on January 23, 2019, 03:02:11 pm
Personally, I prefer using the PC and phone app interfaces (usually using playlists and searches on Spotify rather then the Sonos interface - Spotify actually has a nice Linux client....)
Alexa and I often do not seem to understand each other very well....
Using playlists through Alexa is OK, provided they are set up beforehand.
If you get on perfectly with Alexa, your experience may be better!
While music is playing, Alexa often does not hear me very well.
I sometimes use the Alexa interface for occasional ad hoc one off tunes.
Its also cheaper to get the pre-Alexa Sonos stuff and an Echo Dot with the advantage of placing the Dot well away from the speakers.
YMMV
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: rafletcher on January 23, 2019, 03:15:10 pm
Does anyone use / like the amazon alexa integrated Sonos speakers ? Mine are from before these were launched, and I've wondered if that could be a better option than relying on the app on my iPhone.

Yep, they're the "Play One"'s. Link to your streaming account and just ask for your music. I use mine in the shed/man cave so easy to change when I'm fettling or on the turbo.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Feanor on January 23, 2019, 03:15:51 pm
The SONOS systems can't connect to my WiFi due to they type of security setup I use ( WPA2-Enterprise, with Radius servers ), so I have a SONOS Boost, which is like a SONOS-dedicated access point which the devices connect to.  Seems to Just Work.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: pcolbeck on January 23, 2019, 03:36:42 pm
The SONOS systems can't connect to my WiFi due to they type of security setup I use ( WPA2-Enterprise, with Radius servers ), so I have a SONOS Boost, which is like a SONOS-dedicated access point which the devices connect to.  Seems to Just Work.

Cool WPA2 Enterprise at home! Bit of an overkill though unless your work for GCHQ or something.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 23, 2019, 03:57:05 pm
Does anyone use / like the amazon alexa integrated Sonos speakers ? Mine are from before these were launched, and I've wondered if that could be a better option than relying on the app on my iPhone.

You need a streaming service or otherwise you are limited to simply shouting louder, skip etc. You can't select local music. Unless you need handsfree operation, it's mostly a convenience rather than must-have for me, I prefer to jibble things on my iPhone.

I confess I have no idea how they work with wifi, since it didn't require any passwords etc. but work they do.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Feanor on January 23, 2019, 04:12:18 pm
I confess I have no idea how they work with wifi, since it didn't require any passwords etc. but work they do.

How it seems to work on a regular domestic WiFi setup is this:

On the phone app, when you search for a new speaker, it initially connects over bluetooth.
It has to do this, since the speaker doesn't know the passwords to your WiFi.

The App then scrapes the WiFi connection details from the phone, and sends them over to the speaker via Bluetooth.
The speaker then connects to WiFi, and the connection then transfers to WiFi.

When we then moved the system to Feanor Towers, the WiFi connection was no longer found, but the app found the Boost, and set it up.  It then used the Boost to search for speakers, and it found them. So the speakers seemed to magically connect to the Boost's hidden network with no user configuration required.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 23, 2019, 04:40:38 pm
Hmm, I didn't think the Sonos One or Play: 1 had Bluetooth in any format (you certainly can't connect via BT) – but I presume it's getting the details from somewhere and somehow (I did Google, but it's still very mysterious), I don't remember actually authorizing anything. I just pressed the button and waited for the satisfying chime. They don't seem to connect to the local network per se though, they won't for instance span my two SSIDs, they'll only connect to one SSID (fortunately not an issue, it seems to reach them all).

(I guess the Boost just creates its own wireless network using one of the speakers as the base station.)

It's all quite pleasingly mysterious. Not admittedly quite as cool as answering my mobiles on my computer, even when they're in my coat pocket upstairs, but pretty cool nevertheless.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: rafletcher on January 23, 2019, 04:44:35 pm
They can all receive BT from the phone/table for the setup, my Playbase was just the same.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 23, 2019, 04:49:41 pm
Secret radio signals, ahoy.

I assumed a lack of BT on the grounds they don't offer it as a connection mechanism (not that you need it, which probably answers that question).

Anyway, it's all very clever. Still not clear why they can only use one SSID though, if they're routing through the network, it oughtn't to matter. But I'm a proven ignoramus on such matters.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: mike on January 23, 2019, 04:54:50 pm
I'm also a big fan and have 3 1s and a 5 about the house, their soundbar (from 3 years ago, not the new one) is fab too.  The app has improved beyond recognition in the last few years and is now very useable

Anyone remember the pre-iphone sonos controller?  (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sonos-CR100-Multi-Room-Music-System-Controller-X4/273660130139?hash=item3fb76a335b:g:E~sAAOSwcqxcLgjc) I found mine the other day but even after it claimed to be charged it wouldnt switch on.. 
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Feanor on January 23, 2019, 06:19:06 pm
I guess the Boost just creates its own wireless network using one of the speakers as the base station.

My understanding ( based on random googling ) is that when any one of the Sonos devices has a wired connection, then the entire system goes into a proprietary 'mesh' mode, with the main connection back to the outside world being via the wired unit.

The Boost is essentially doing this function.
It's plugged in, and acts as a bridge between the LAN and the SonosNet.

It's *possible* that even without the Boost, if I connected one of my devices to the wired LAN, then the other devices *might* be able to connect using the mesh system, even though they can't connect to my WiFi.  I've not tested this.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: pdm on January 23, 2019, 07:00:47 pm
I concur.
My system has some units wired and the rest wireless. According to the Router device table, ALL devices are listed as wired, even those that are wireless.
Sniffing Wifi reveals a strong "hidden" network running in parallel with the home WiFi - the Sonos Mesh network is the only possible culprit.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 23, 2019, 07:37:28 pm
None of my Sonos speakers have ever seen an ethernet cable, only the diabolical rays of the wifi access point. All five come up connected via wifi as SonosZPs and have DHCP-issued IPs. I think it only creates a mesh if you use the boost feature with a cable. I guess that works analogous with my Arlo, where the cameras mesh with the base station which is wired into the LAN so it can talk to the internets and then Russian hackers can see me in my pants to my favourite selection of Miserable Girls Singing in Bathrooms.

It's just a bit of a mystery how they got onto a WPA-protected network with just, as far as I remember, the press of a button. It's a dark magic, for sure. Either that or I forgot the bit where the iPhone said 'share your password' when I was setting them up in which case there's probably not a lot of mystery to be solved.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Feanor on January 23, 2019, 08:02:48 pm
None of my Sonos speakers have ever seen an ethernet cable, […] I think it only creates a mesh if you use the boost feature with a cable.

Yes, I *think* that's what I said.

Quote
It's just a bit of a mystery how they got onto a WPA-protected network with just, as far as I remember, the press of a button. It's a dark magic, for sure.

<tweaks ear in the manner of a Maths Teacher>
Review the previous few posts, and write out the answer 100 times.
In ink.
By tomorrow.
And at the same time, Learn It...
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 23, 2019, 08:14:30 pm
Oh, I don't understand. I think we've reached the point where technology is so advanced that it's magic to me.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Vince on January 23, 2019, 08:40:18 pm
Boy Wunja has a Sonos one. I agree with the excellent sound and connectivity functionality.
However, like a lot of IoT stuff the security stinks. I may have downloaded the app on to MY phone and I may have played Val Doonican or Max Bygraves (Spotify doesn't seem to have The Cheeky Girls) in his room when I felt it necessary.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Feanor on January 23, 2019, 09:41:09 pm
Oh, I don't understand. I think we've reached the point where technology is so advanced that it's magic to me.

I think that's exactly as it should be.
Indistinguishable from magic.

But it's also right that there should be wizards who at least understand the magic, even if they have limited power to control it.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: sg37409 on January 23, 2019, 09:44:59 pm
Boy Wunja has a Sonos one. I agree with the excellent sound and connectivity functionality.
However, like a lot of IoT stuff the security stinks. I may have downloaded the app on to MY phone and I may have played Val Doonican or Max Bygraves (Spotify doesn't seem to have The Cheeky Girls) in his room when I felt it necessary.

Thats happened a couple of times here too, "Keeping your poop in a jar"  didn't go down so well as the alarm call for my son.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 23, 2019, 09:53:47 pm
Oh, I don't understand. I think we've reached the point where technology is so advanced that it's magic to me.

I think that's exactly as it should be.
Indistinguishable from magic.

But it's also right that there should be wizards who at least understand the magic, even if they have limited power to control it.

I have one up on some people. My watch, for instance, automatically logs me into my sleeping MacBook when I sit down in front of it. One of my colleagues was mysterified by this phenomenon, so when she asked how, I told her it read my brain waves and I just had to picture my password in my mind.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 21, 2020, 07:03:33 pm
Re this Sonos sunsetting:

https://www.slashgear.com/these-sonos-devices-lose-software-support-in-2020-21607309/

For those who have older Sonos bits (only 1st gen Play:5 and a Bridge in my case) what sort of things might occur as time goes on? I don’t mind not getting new features as long as I retain all the existing ones. But could some functionality be lost? If so, that’s a bit sh*t. As is some of what I am reading about their “upgrade” methods. Insanely wasteful.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Kim on January 21, 2020, 07:41:17 pm
Oh, I don't understand. I think we've reached the point where technology is so advanced that it's magic to me.

I think that's exactly as it should be.
Indistinguishable from magic.

But it's also right that there should be wizards who at least understand the magic, even if they have limited power to control it.

I have one up on some people. My watch, for instance, automatically logs me into my sleeping MacBook when I sit down in front of it. One of my colleagues was mysterified by this phenomenon, so when she asked how, I told her it read my brain waves and I just had to picture my password in my mind.

It being vitally important not to picture it with capslock on.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: pcolbeck on January 21, 2020, 08:02:51 pm
Re this Sonos sunsetting:

https://www.slashgear.com/these-sonos-devices-lose-software-support-in-2020-21607309/

For those who have older Sonos bits (only 1st gen Play:5 and a Bridge in my case) what sort of things might occur as time goes on? I don’t mind not getting new features as long as I retain all the existing ones. But could some functionality be lost? If so, that’s a bit sh*t. As is some of what I am reading about their “upgrade” methods. Insanely wasteful.

I'm not sure what you expect them to do. They aren't stopping their old kit from working, it continuous to operate the same as when you bought it or even better if they have added more features up the point where support ends. all that's happened is they aren't doing any more updates. Companies can only support older hardware with software updates for so long it just gets uneconomic after a period of time. Alternately we can have more expensive kit with longer software support. Even most Linux distributions that bastion of fee software mostly supported by community effort have dropped support for 386 and 486 processors as it's just not worth the effort.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Kim on January 21, 2020, 08:45:13 pm
AIUI, Sonos needs all devices to be on the same firmware version, so having old devices prevents the newer ones from receiving updates.  I'm not sure that's entirely sensible, compared to the alternative of the old devices simply stopping working.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: pcolbeck on January 21, 2020, 08:56:30 pm
AIUI, Sonos needs all devices to be on the same firmware version, so having old devices prevents the newer ones from receiving updates.  I'm not sure that's entirely sensible, compared to the alternative of the old devices simply stopping working.

Hmm that's a tricky one. People would get annoyed if half their speakers stopped working as well. I guess giving them the option to not update anything or drop the old ones of the network would be an idea.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 21, 2020, 09:05:35 pm
I also think there's a balance (the devices mentioned are all over a decade old), but they should ensure there's always an option to keep old speakers running at the expense of new features. If they want people to upgrade then make it worthwhile rather than wastefully brick old hardware. Yeah, the 'trade-up' thing seems horrible.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 21, 2020, 10:15:23 pm
They aren't stopping their old kit from working, it continuous to operate the same as when you bought it.

As I say, it doesn’t bother me if I miss out on additional features. Wanting to retain the existing features is reasonable. It’s a speaker: obsolescence shouldn’t be necessary because of software updates after 10 years.

Anyway, the reason for my query was that their email today (subject, a somewhat off "Your system requires attention”) says “in May, the following products in your system will be classified as legacy and no longer receive software updates and new features. This will affect your listening experience.” (My italics).

And:

Quote
You have options. Continue using legacy products:
You can continue using legacy products after May, but your system will no longer receive software updates and new features. Over time, this is likely to disrupt access to services and overall functionality.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: pcolbeck on January 22, 2020, 07:23:14 am
Ah that's the same thing that happens to Smart TVs.

The problem isn't Sonas per se its the services that it connects to. For example streaming radio. Sonas stop providing updates for device X and it works fine for a year or so then Streaming radio service X upgrade their streaming service and require an update to clients that use. There is no update for the Sonas so it loses access to that service. Unfortunately that's the reality of a networked world.

I suspect eventually this kind of issue will slow down as standards for streaming and the like settle down. At the moment though we are really at the beginning of this technology and things change rapidly.

Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Kim on January 22, 2020, 01:12:25 pm
Steaming audio/video isn't exactly a new idea.  It's been around in various forms for the best part of 30 years, and there are plenty of open standards.  The future-proofing problem is partly one of newer codecs or protocols, but mostly one of shortsightedness and deliberate lock-in by the content providers.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Redlight on January 22, 2020, 02:39:28 pm
Meanwhile, people express puzzlement at the fact that I still buy records and CDs.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: sg37409 on January 23, 2020, 11:29:56 am
I have 4 components and my sons have 1 each. (Now moved away, so not part of my system). Of my 4, 3 are too old.

Legacy products were introduced between 2005 and 2011 and, given the age of the technology, do not have enough memory or processing power to sustain future innovation.
Please note that because Sonos is a system, all products operate on the same software. If modern products remain connected to legacy products after May, they also will not receive software updates and new features
.”

I have the option to trade up, or
but your system will no longer receive software updates and new features. Over time, this is likely to disrupt access to services and overall functionality
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 23, 2020, 11:38:56 am
That doesn't seem unreasonable (bricking old hardware as part of an upgrade plan, on the other hand...) eventually services will outpace the hardware. You already need a fairly modern mobile phone to operate the things (the Sonos app doesn't work on old versions of iOS – though Airplay still seems to work).
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: sg37409 on January 23, 2020, 12:17:27 pm
That doesn't seem unreasonable (bricking old hardware as part of an upgrade plan, on the other hand...) eventually services will outpace the hardware. You already need a fairly modern mobile phone to operate the things (the Sonos app doesn't work on old versions of iOS – though Airplay still seems to work).

It does to me.  Having my whole system run on out of date software because I have 1 or more aged components seems very limiting. I hope I can still use it to play music from my NAS but can certainly envisage a time when spotify(etc) wont play on it.

Edit to add:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51206604
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 23, 2020, 03:12:08 pm
The thing is, once one speaker stops supporting a feature that the newer ones do, it gets complicated. My basic Play speakers don't support airplay 2, for instance, though it's fine, because you can still pair them with Sonos Ones that do.

It's the same with mobile phones, a suitable old version of iOS or Android won't support music services (my old iPad doesn't support the Spotify app (or Sonos), but still plays from Apple Music).
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: asterix on January 24, 2020, 08:57:43 am
One day my Pioneer A400 (upgraded a few years ago) paired with Lynn speakers using WIRES will highly desirable again.  Altho' I have ditched the CD player and play everything from FLAC files.

Bought Mrs A an Echo Dot.  Ed Sheeran, One Direction, West Life ..   Aaaaarggghh..  Why did I do it?
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Foghat on January 24, 2020, 06:07:55 pm
That doesn't seem unreasonable

It does to me.  Having my whole system run on out of date software because I have 1 or more aged components seems very limiting. I hope I can still use it to play music from my NAS but can certainly envisage a time when spotify(etc) wont play on it.

Quite right.  The apparent casual acceptance on here of Sonos's moronic announcement is bizarre.

Sonos users should be in no doubt that the company has quite possibly just out-Ratnered Ratner.  In the space of one day, and with one e-mail, it has turned its legions of happy tech-and-social-media-savvy owners and recommenders into an army of despisers vowing never to buy Sonos again.  Many are ditching their equipment or exploring alternatives, as the new money-grubbing strategy that's been revealed destroys the whole Sonos stable one-system home multi-room inter-connected  premium audio ethos.

SEE HERE (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969/index78.html) for the enormous backlash underway, and to understand why Sonos has basically shot itself in the head.  Elsewhere, sites such as Trustpilot etc show just how bad the reaction has been.  Owners are flooding review pages on Amazon etc too, warning prospective purchasers off.  National and international news and tech media everywhere are reporting the fiasco - it's been on the front page of BBC News twice.  The share price is plummeting.

Quite astounding that Sonos thought it was going to get this dumb strategy past hundreds of thousands of people who have invested very large sums in Sonos equipment but are not prepared to pay those sums all over again just to keep their current set-up doing what it already does but with some minor extra bells and whistles most of them don't want.  The environmental lunacy of its trade-up scheme is the icing on this sh1tcake.

An extraordinary masterclass in corporate idiocy that will be subject to many a business management course case study for years to come.

Sonos might just be able to rescue this and get the bullet surgically removed from its brain in time, but the follow-up faux-apology stroke reiteration of dumb strategy from the CEO (who I understand coincidentally had a major hand in the demise of BlackBerry too) ain't gonna do it.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: DaveJ on January 25, 2020, 01:02:58 pm
Its very easy to slag off Sonos.  Its not so easy to see what else they could do.

I'm sure everyone wants their ancient underpowered devices to keep up with the latest gadgets, but dream on.  Expecting enhancements for old devices to continue indefinitely isn't realistic.

There are other (worse) examples of this.  iPlayer stopped working on my TV and many others when the BBC changed the way it worked a couple of years back.  Its a problem that will become more widespread as computing spreads into more and more devices.  Sonos are at the sharp end of this, as people come to terms with having bought a complex IT system when they half thought they were buying something not too dissimilar to a old fashioned amplifier and speakers.

Its not as if Sonos will stop anything working.  The problems will come when Apple/Tidal/Spotify change their systems.

And in case anyone thinks this is easy, just look at the problems Bose have had with updates breaking their devices.  Actually breaking a working device, not ceasing to provide enhancements at some point in the future. 
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Foghat on January 25, 2020, 01:47:56 pm
I'm sure everyone wants their ancient underpowered devices to keep up with the latest gadgets, but dream on.  Expecting enhancements for old devices to continue indefinitely isn't realistic.

People aren't asking for that.  That is not the cause of the current outrage.  If you'd read and understood the background to this, you'd realise that.  Look at the thread I linked to and it will become clear after just a few minutes' reading.

Ancient?  Sonos's new plan is forced obsolescence (and holding owners to ransom) every few years - on premium audio devices and entire home networks costing a fortune, and ones whose USP and principal reason for most people's purchase was the multi-room synchronised+differentiated capability (with the inherent multi-buy implication).  This isn't like changing your smartphone every three years.  And even if it was, Sonos's proposed hobbling of all components on a network just because of one legacy device being present means the comparisons of Sonos development with phones or similar tech that some people make are irrelevant and useless.

Sonos is royally attempting to screw current users over and will do the same again in a few years under the new strategy if the Sonos community allows it by not standing up and fighting now.

Its very easy to slag off Sonos.  Its not so easy to see what else they could do.

What?  There are a lot of well-informed people - expert tech developers, software/hardware vendors and Sonos users/proponents/aficionados - on the various Sonos discussion threads who have made it clear this is straightforward for Sonos to solve technically.  It just doesn't suit the new ultra-greedy business model, which is backfiring spectacularly.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: rafletcher on January 25, 2020, 01:55:43 pm
Not dissimilar to Apple or Android where older devices can’t be updated to the latest OS. And?  And I speak as a Sonos owner, albeit only since 2017. Maybe I’ll be able to pick up some bargains from disaffected owners  ;)
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Foghat on January 25, 2020, 02:03:33 pm
Not dissimilar to Apple or Android where older devices can’t be updated to the latest OS. And?

As I said:

This isn't like changing smartphones every three years.  And even if it was, Sonos's proposed hobbling of all components on a network just because of one legacy device being present means the comparisons of Sonos development with phones or similar tech that some people make are irrelevant and useless.

Just a few minutes on the thread I linked to makes everything clear - there's hundreds of well-informed people on that forum all explaining why this is an incredibly dumb move by Sonos.  There is no one defending Sonos's actions, other than Sonos execs and one or two Sonos tech support guys instructed to trot out (rather reluctantly) the current party line.....as those actions and the strategy are indefensible and incredibly poorly thought out.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 25, 2020, 07:26:43 pm
So, people are angry on the internet. Oh my.

I believe they're working on a reasonable compromise which is to preserve the existing functionality of legacy devices without affecting non-legacy devices. Yeah, they could have thought through things better in the first place. Same with the trade-up programme that bricked old devices.

Fact is, all these devices will be superseded at some point. I have a couple of basic speakers that don't meet the hardware specs for Airplay 2, for instance. The acceptable compromise is to pair them up with speakers that can, which is fine, and should really have been the suggested way forward for legacy devices. They remain a functional part of the network, but nope, I can't zing them direct from my iPhone.

This is the way we live now, all vendors of similar wireless systems will have the same issues. The alternative is to use old fashioned wires.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Foghat on January 25, 2020, 08:39:28 pm
So, people are angry on the internet. Oh my.

And check what it's done to the value of the company, in just a few days.....oh my indeed.

I believe they're working on a reasonable compromise which is to preserve the existing functionality of legacy devices without affecting non-legacy devices. Yeah, they could have thought through things better in the first place.

Not reasonable at all considering the basis on which Sonos has marketed and sold its expensive goods hitherto.  And you've conveniently missed out identifying the problems of this 'compromise' associated with having mixed networks, as probably the majority of owners have installed.....as well as with having a legacy network that one wishes to expand or replace dead devices on, or replace a controller on, after May 2020.

This is the way we live now, all vendors of similar wireless systems will have the same issues. The alternative is to use old fashioned wires.

People only want Sonos for streaming audio simply and multi-room, which works perfectly well wireless already with legacy and mixed networks.  Most don't want all the other crap, and the uprising is making this clear to Sonos.  If Sonos absolutely has to push the other crap, solve it by designing a new device that can handle it and down-sample as necessary to legacy kit, preserving all the full network grouping operability.  It's quite straightforward to solve, and persisting with all devices on a network needing the grunt to handle whatever hi-res or other features may be coming, otherwise they can't group, is ridiculous.  If owners persevere with the pressure, for example by creating a fuss that also happens to wipe hundreds of millions off the shares value of those who direct/support the organisation’s new path, Sonos may cave in.

But I suppose if one likes bending over to get rogered in the backside by corporate/shareholder greed, even though a much more sensible and sustainable (but less lucrative for the greedy) alternative is available, yours is the right attitude to have.

As it happens, I will be hardly affected by this round of being held to ransom.....but if Sonos succeeds at this one, there'll be another round the corner as the current crop is rendered 'non-groupable except with itself' by the next need to increase memory by a whole, what, 512MB.

Anyway, why so keen to blithely accept being shat on...….and the disgraceful generation of completely unnecessary and avoidable e-waste it encourages?

Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 25, 2020, 09:17:17 pm
I dunno, how do you make old hardware support a modern service that's beyond its capabilities. There's an inherent compromise in these things.

But yeah, it's speakers, and we have climate change, the rise of the right, and little things like that to trouble us. Honestly, when the cannibal zombies come (space virus, probs), you'll find bashing them with a Sonos speaker wanting.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Foghat on January 25, 2020, 09:43:42 pm
Grow up.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: ian on January 25, 2020, 09:46:54 pm
Stop it, I may cry.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Foghat on January 25, 2020, 11:32:34 pm
No need to cry - the forum's quite forgiving when people post foolishly or without thinking things through first, which I know is a fashionable and cool thing to do.
Title: Re: SONOS - a revelation
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 26, 2020, 02:18:12 pm
And in case anyone thinks this is easy, just look at the problems Bose have had with updates breaking their devices.  Actually breaking a working device, not ceasing to provide enhancements at some point in the future. 

I can see the difficulties. Much more to come, I’m sure, in the world of “smart homes”:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/sonos-outrage-legacy-speakers

It’s true that I accept that after a few years I’ll need to upgrade my £700 phone but I think of things like speakers differently.

https://www.pocket-lint.com/speakers/news/sonos/150858-sonos-ceo-we-didn-t-get-this-right-says-legacy-devices-will-work-after-may

Quote
Spence reaffirmed that older Sonos devices - including the first-gen Sonos Play:5, Zone Players, Connect and Connect:Amp products made between 2011 and 2015 - will "continue to work as they do today".

... which I’m perfectly happy with.

Speaking of Bose, their latest update has left my QC35s much less capable than when I bought them, having almost eliminated the headphones’ main feature, noise cancellation.