Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: ianrobo on January 25, 2019, 11:36:15 pm

Title: MAF Method
Post by: ianrobo on January 25, 2019, 11:36:15 pm
This really changed my training, if you now the MAF method it is based doing the majority of your training HR at !80-age - that being 136 in my case.

Generally I do 65% at this level and the rest I tend do HIIT once.twice a week. But what I have noticed as a benefit

1. Recovery seems much better
2. On Rides I can go for longer at higher HR
3, Weight, because this is mainly in the fat burning zone, a few who had not seen me for a year said I look much better (but my diet not changed)

The principle about this is that you put less stress on your body and this gives you a much wider base than traditional training methods. I do throughly recommend it to anyone though at times it can ne slow to start with as you get fitter then the speed quickly catches up
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Chris S on January 26, 2019, 09:44:31 am
I've tried it on and off over the last few years. It's not a programme for those who like to get thrills from their workouts.

Some fans of the method are very quick to denounce the 220-age method of determining MHR, only to then swear by the 180-age Max Aerobic Limit - which seems pretty selective to me.

It's a very broad brush - but there are some pretty significant success stories out there, from athletes who've literally turned their careers around using it. It seems very well suited to athletes who have broken themselves with years of chronic over-training - it's very good at resetting your aerobic base; that is, if you have the time and patience to follow it.

My MAF rate is 121. This seems crazy to me - my RHR is 55, and my most recently measured max is 190. I can barely get on a bike and pedal AT ALL for 121.

And yet, I've been able to measure some progression when following the method - in that I've gradually developed more power for the same HR.

It's a long term method, that is utterly, completely and mind-numbingly dull, but if one has the dedication to follow it through, it can work.

Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 26, 2019, 10:13:52 am
Not heard of it before but it sounds a bit like polarised training, e.g. 80% in Seiler zone 1 and 20% in Seiler zone 3.

For me 180-age=122, and Seiler zone 1 is 120-135. A polarised plan could be 3 HIIT sessions per week and 12-15 hours of zone 1 work. Fine if you’re retired, but hard to find the time otherwise.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Chris S on January 26, 2019, 10:18:36 am
That's another point of course - the <Z2 work has to be high volume. For me, that's two hours a day, at <120W on the turbo. I guess I could do it - I too don't have to commute, so I could find the time. I'd have to want to more than I do though!

BTW - the HIIT addition is ianrobo's modification. The method as published by Phil Maffetone is 100% of your training volume at less than your MAF HR. No anaerobic allowed at all.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: FifeingEejit on January 26, 2019, 12:26:17 pm
hm, 143.
Seems I need to ride a bit harder...
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: fboab on January 26, 2019, 07:31:39 pm
It's daft.
How can a straightforward number minus age mean anything when peoples min & max HR are so different?
My resting HR is 45 and my max is about 175, so how is 180-age for me, the same level as it is for old man Smith up there who's older but whose heart rate runs faster?
If he'd said 'zone 2' I'd have more respect for the protocol, but no, it has to be 180-age. Ridiculous.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: ElyDave on January 26, 2019, 07:41:10 pm
I've used it pretty sucessfully in getting my running 5k, 10k times down and preparing for ultras.  I found it very good at either increasing overall endurance capacity or, as per OP reducing the impact of sessions as evidenced by teh recovery.

It's no different overall from most of the endurance methods out there really, even going back to a paper I found on cross country skiing as an example.  What all have in common is that to get really good at enduracne, you need to do lots of endurance stuff, with a pyramid that is a really wide base of loads of low stress, low HR that serves to build capacity. The really high intensity stuff should be short and sharp.  Most studies have shown that the pyramid becomes a diamond with people tending towards the middle and neither doing enough low intensity stuff, and the hard stuff they do is not hard enough. 

MAF is not really much different overall, with the exception of how it periodises things.  I'm not saying other methods don't periodise, but that MAF does it slightly differently.  I'll be interested to see how my HR is next week when I plan my first short run in three months
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Phil W on January 27, 2019, 01:00:38 pm
Sounds just like LISS , LSD, Aerobic Threshold etc.  Improve fat burning etc.  He is a bit religious about the HR bit though as though your age determines your maximum aerobic function as the man calls it. He also says to only do MAF training for the first three months, no HIIT sessions. As Chris says it is so low stress that you need masses of volume of it to have much effect.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: mattc on January 27, 2019, 01:17:34 pm
...

Most studies have shown that the pyramid becomes a diamond with people tending towards the middle and neither doing enough low intensity stuff, and the hard stuff they do is not hard enough. 
More of a lozenge, IMO.

Meanwhile, as a data point, the YACF "Base Training" thread is mostly about intervals :P
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93165.msg2363262#msg2363262
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: offcumden on January 27, 2019, 09:29:21 pm
Although I'm prepared to accept the general principle behind MAF, I'd find it extremely difficult to keep my HR down to 180-age on any ride involving even gentle hills. And to ride for hours at such a low level of effort in winter temperatures I'd be risking hypothermia, and probably terminal boredom. Doesn't sound like fun - but I suppose that's not really the object?

I'd be tempted just to lie about my age; I'm 76.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 27, 2019, 09:41:06 pm
I think increasingly we are seeing that equations like this are failing in the older athlete. I suspect 180- age is a good way of getting a 30 year old to work on aerobic base. It for 60-70 year olds with a history of exercise then I think it fails.

I try to keep my outdoor rides to a maximum HR of 130 which has really produced a big improvement in aerobic capability.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 29, 2019, 04:57:27 pm
Its working wonders for my marathon training this time around but I have found I need to add on huge volume - I am doing my 30-40 miles for the running ad then adding on 6-7 hours a week of maf turbo training.  The only time I break out is on my long runs where I am slowly building in some marathon pace.

I am seeing real gains.  My first marathon I was 10 minute mileing at around 160-180bpm.  Last Sunday I did 16 miles at sub 140 bpm and 5 miles at 9 min miles and only just got up to 160.

I am doing a slightly modified version so I will break out if I feel good but all my recovery runs are at Maf and I am not doing any speed work as such - its really feeling good
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: ElyDave on January 29, 2019, 05:16:30 pm
That's similar to my experience, I found my training pace improved at a lower hr, and come race day, there was more left in the tank in the final third to either push harder on the shorter stuff or go the distance on the ultras
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 29, 2019, 05:28:03 pm
That's similar to my experience, I found my training pace improved at a lower hr, and come race day, there was more left in the tank in the final third to either push harder on the shorter stuff or go the distance on the ultras

I guess biggest improvement I can say is that my first marathon i constantly got injured during training.  I never got beyond 35 mpw and 14 mile long run and I felt terrible most of the time.  I was doing speed work on a Saturday then long runs on sunday and just could not recover.  This time around I am u to 40 mpw and 16 mile long run and I feel pretty good.  Maybe I am just a bit more sound as a runner (I was very new to it last time) but I feel moving most of my running into sub 145bpm has just completely changed the consistency.  I am not dreading the runs and that is helping to build up the volume.

I am not scared of breaking out of MAF if it feels right but it really seems to be guiding me towards training that is sustainable and from which I am improving steadily.

My weekly volume is around 14 hours with over half of that on the turbo trainer.  Plan is to slowly start dropping out the turbo work closer to the marathon and build in some more tempo or interval work based on feel.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: simonp on January 30, 2019, 02:08:14 pm
I think increasingly we are seeing that equations like this are failing in the older athlete. I suspect 180- age is a good way of getting a 30 year old to work on aerobic base. It for 60-70 year olds with a history of exercise then I think it fails.

I try to keep my outdoor rides to a maximum HR of 130 which has really produced a big improvement in aerobic capability.

 It belongs in the same bin as 220-age. I’ve had 196 recently and I’m 47. Another guy I row with is also 47 and can get over 200.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Chris S on January 30, 2019, 02:17:54 pm
The 180-age is not intended as some kind of predictor of anything, unlike the 220-age formula. Maffetone's intent is to provide a HR that guarantees everyone will be aerobic.

Well - I don't care about everyone. I care about me, and what's best for me, and as such need to find a different way of expressing my aerobic limit. Maffetone himself offers some suggestions - such as never working out at a level where you can no longer nose-breathe. It's an easy thing to measure - I can do that up to about 135/140; much higher than my 180-age limit.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Phil W on January 30, 2019, 03:36:43 pm
That's similar to my experience, I found my training pace improved at a lower hr, and come race day, there was more left in the tank in the final third to either push harder on the shorter stuff or go the distance on the ultras

I guess biggest improvement I can say is that my first marathon i constantly got injured during training.  I never got beyond 35 mpw and 14 mile long run and I felt terrible most of the time.  I was doing speed work on a Saturday then long runs on sunday and just could not recover.  This time around I am u to 40 mpw and 16 mile long run and I feel pretty good.  Maybe I am just a bit more sound as a runner (I was very new to it last time) but I feel moving most of my running into sub 145bpm has just completely changed the consistency.  I am not dreading the runs and that is helping to build up the volume.

I am not scared of breaking out of MAF if it feels right but it really seems to be guiding me towards training that is sustainable and from which I am improving steadily.

My weekly volume is around 14 hours with over half of that on the turbo trainer.  Plan is to slowly start dropping out the turbo work closer to the marathon and build in some more tempo or interval work based on feel.

Constantly getting injured just sounds like you were overtraining.  Too much stress and not enough recovery. Stress is a combination of intensity times duration.  The lower the intensity the more duration you can endure and vice versa.  It is during the recovery periods you get stronger not during the exercise which is slowly breaking your body down.   Insufficient recovery and you will start breaking down, ignore it, and it may become health threatening.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: mattc on January 30, 2019, 05:14:05 pm
I think this is where running differs from cycling:

Overtrain on a bike and you mainly just get knackered (and stop getting fitter)
vs
Overtrain on foot and you get injured, which sets you back lots in addition to the fatigue of overtraining.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 30, 2019, 07:57:44 pm
MAF isn’t really designed for peak performance - although people have made it to the top using it.

What it does well is build a really strong base for you to work from - on the bike I could follow pretty much any plan and do ok.   I went from 20 stone inactive to 10,000 miles a year on the bike and never really thought too much about pace or heart rate or effort.... if I pushed it too hard I just had tired legs - no injuries and I got quicker consistently 

I think with cycling you can get away with lower volume and very high intensity for a long time ... I can’t do that on my feet and I don’t think many others can either.

When I started running I jumped into a marathon way too quick and followed all the traditional advice and got injured every time I stepped up the volume.  I got more tired and slower and weaker.   All I had to do to improve and stop that cycle was to massively cut back on intensity at the same time.   I’m getting more improvements doing none of the speed work and my body actually feels strong.

Eventually maf will stop being effective and then you add in the intensity butbst my level I do not think I will get to that point any time soon

I can only tell you from my experience it’s a superb way to improve a beginners running ability and all it really requires is a good healthy diet and a lack of ego in seeing slow mile splits pop up for a year or two
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: ElyDave on January 30, 2019, 08:03:46 pm
REmember, MAF does not state anywhere "only do low intensity stuff to build a massive base and nothing else", it periodises just like any other plan, but has the exception of extended periods of JUST low intensity, with a strict control.

It can, as REJ has discovered, make a differene, but as always you do need to know when to step outside it.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 30, 2019, 08:15:24 pm
I think people get annoyed with the perceived rules of MAF.  It’s really very simple old fashioned base building with periodisation built in.   The only bit that’s different is that you are forced to start our way slower than you think you should. 

I was training at around 9 min miles and it felt ok but I couldn’t improve.  Maf took me back to 11 minute plus miles which have now become high 9s.

I’m pretty sure if I wanted to I could go out next week and run a 5k Pb.   I never felt like that when I was actually training to run a 5k Pb.

My numbers are up on maf , I’m running Pb half marathons without trying and I’m fit ... good enough for me .  My aim is a sub 4 marathon so I’m not exactly elite
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Kim on January 31, 2019, 12:11:00 am
This really changed my training, if you now the MAF method it is based doing the majority of your training HR at !80-age - that being 136 in my case.

140BPM?  That sounds like a Bike Ride to me.

I can anecdotally confirm that doing Bike Rides improves my ability to ride bikes...
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: ianrobo on January 31, 2019, 08:06:44 am
I think people get annoyed with the perceived rules of MAF.  It’s really very simple old fashioned base building with periodisation built in.   The only bit that’s different is that you are forced to start our way slower than you think you should. 

I was training at around 9 min miles and it felt ok but I couldn’t improve.  Maf took me back to 11 minute plus miles which have now become high 9s.

I’m pretty sure if I wanted to I could go out next week and run a 5k Pb.   I never felt like that when I was actually training to run a 5k Pb.

My numbers are up on maf , I’m running Pb half marathons without trying and I’m fit ... good enough for me .  My aim is a sub 4 marathon so I’m not exactly elite
Spot on and more importantly it does far less damage to your body
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: ElyDave on January 31, 2019, 02:15:32 pm
Absolutely agree. REJ is finding everything i found.  I'm looking to restart running after my injury and I think this will be a good way to make sure I don't overdo it early on.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: ianrobo on January 31, 2019, 05:00:53 pm
If interested I did this podcast and it ties in very well with Keto but is applicable to anyone as it is about fat at higher HR rather than glucose

http://2ketodudes.com/show.aspx?episode=86
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 31, 2019, 05:28:57 pm
I have a low VO2 max and small lungs. My lungs and heart have to work hard to feed my muscles.

130bpm is ticking over for me.

No cycling fitness atm, but kayaking arms are coming back. I'm doing intervals and 800m sprints with people 20-odd years younger than me; and doing better than keeping up. Last night I sat with the div5/6 paddlers, gave the div7/8 paddlers a 100m head start and still caught them.

Steady speed paddling wasn't creating that improvement.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: ElyDave on January 31, 2019, 05:41:01 pm
So youve already built your base, well done.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: ianrobo on January 31, 2019, 06:32:53 pm
So youve already built your base, well done.

And once you have a large aerobic base the next step is what kind of Cu long you do and for most of us I suspect that is more than good enough
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 31, 2019, 07:42:35 pm
Again - it’s not about plodding, steady state exercise at a low heart rate.

MAF is about constant improvement wiithout hurting yourself.   If you follow it to the extreme (as some have) you will end up with a maf mile per minute pace that is very uncomfortable to hold.   You do still break out of maf heart rate when racing or when you are further on in the plan.  I still do strides or down hill running to get the leg speed work in.   Down hill my maf pace is 7.30 min/mile so it’s a good workout

While running I still have to think about staying under maf and slow down a bit but that’s allowing me to up the volume way beyond what I’ve managed before.   On the bike I have to go pretty quick to stay up near my MAF ... the idea is to stay as close to it as possible, not 20-40bpm under it.

If you are just doing steady state, low intensity then you are not doing MAF- you should be testing, improving and then testing again and as soon as the MAF pace starts to plateau you bring in intervals.   

It’s a high volume plan .... if you only have two - four hours a week to train then don’t do MAF, intervals or sweetspot stuff would clearly make more sense

Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: zigzag on February 04, 2019, 08:24:16 pm
i thought i'd give a go and see how it feels running at this pace.

just did 10k at 4:56/k which seemed alright, a normal fairly relaxed run and i felt i could keep going for another few hours at this pace.

perhaps a good way to build a high volume base and adapt to fat burning as the pace increases at the same hr?
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Greenbank on February 04, 2019, 08:58:55 pm
I don't think I can even "run" at 138bpm, it would be so slow as to be horribly dull.

The slowest I can find (part of school running club with a bunch of 10/11 year olds) is ~7:00/km and that's still 10bpm too high. Walking at ~10:00/km is about 100bpm.

(I am ~15kg heavier than I should be for running, which may have something to do with it.)
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 04, 2019, 09:29:16 pm
i thought i'd give a go and see how it feels running at this pace.

just did 10k at 4:56/k which seemed alright, a normal fairly relaxed run and i felt i could keep going for another few hours at this pace.

perhaps a good way to build a high volume base and adapt to fat burning as the pace increases at the same hr?

That is exactly what I am attempting

Ran a Pb half marathon Sunday ... 2 hours 2 secs which was 7 minutes quicker than previous attempts.   Was slightly over MAF averaging 156 bpm but my long run is my weekly quality session so I’m good with that.   Was also fasted as I’m trying to improve fat burning.

More pleasing is that every mile of Sunday’s run was at a lower heart rate than the first half of my 2017 marathon - more pace at less effort ....nice!

Just need to lose the two stone I have spare and I might have cracked this! (Plus stay injury free until May)
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: ianrobo on February 05, 2019, 09:51:07 pm
i thought i'd give a go and see how it feels running at this pace.

just did 10k at 4:56/k which seemed alright, a normal fairly relaxed run and i felt i could keep going for another few hours at this pace.

perhaps a good way to build a high volume base and adapt to fat burning as the pace increases at the same hr?

That is exactly what I am attempting

Ran a Pb half marathon Sunday ... 2 hours 2 secs which was 7 minutes quicker than previous attempts.   Was slightly over MAF averaging 156 bpm but my long run is my weekly quality session so I’m good with that.   Was also fasted as I’m trying to improve fat burning.

More pleasing is that every mile of Sunday’s run was at a lower heart rate than the first half of my 2017 marathon - more pace at less effort ....nice!

Just need to lose the two stone I have spare and I might have cracked this! (Plus stay injury free until May)

For an event do not run/cycle at MAF as that is about building up to the target event.

The quicker you are at NAF you burn more fat and then when you go higher you use far less glycogen ... since being fat adapted and MAF I have not bonked or been anywhere near it even on 200 rides which I start fasted but may have a sausage roll after 6 hours or so 
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 10, 2019, 10:10:16 pm
I have given this a try for the last two weeks. First thing is to read the book!

180 is just a number and unrelated to max HR or anything else. In an equation it is just a const, experimentally derived.  Now it is “time after time” research and therefor not an RCT.

For me, aged 60, the equation gives me 120 and I gave myself the 5bpm boost for training without injury.

So all my training has to be in a range of 115-125. The first couple of rides seemed very easy but very slow. Outside it was a very enjoyable audax pace on flattish terrain.

I do an hour this morning and could feel the work really building at that HR. Yesterday I did 3 hours on the bike with 90% in the range and maximum of 135 for a few minutes. Average of 122bpm for the whole ride.

What I would like to find is something to relate beats per watt per duration.  This would give a true measure of aerobic ability. You could do it easily enough for an hour as average watts/average HR. But I can’t work out how I would model the effects of long duration fade.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 12, 2019, 06:31:15 am
Personally I’m not sure I would follow strict MAF at 60  unless you are very new to exercise.   There is a huge amount of research that shows lifting heavy weights combined with intensity and more rest would be more effective as we age.   I think you might have more to lose than to gain from MAF.  I am of course no expert.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 12, 2019, 07:21:25 am
Personally I’m not sure I would follow strict MAF at 60  unless you are very new to exercise.   There is a huge amount of research that shows lifting heavy weights combined with intensity and more rest would be more effective as we age.   I think you might have more to lose than to gain from MAF.  I am of course no expert.

Hi, Thank you for your response and I do appreciate it. I am a somewhat counter cultural person and read a lot of "research" with both an experienced and a jaundiced eye.  I do agree that muscle loss is a reality in the elderly but the evidence on which it is based tends not to be physically active people.  I quite like the difference between aerobic and anaerobic pathways and training them separately as a concept which is really what MAF is saying in my view.  I have not given up my weight lifting although I have parked it for a few weeks whilst I focus on this.

Thank you again and please do not take this as a rude dismissal of your views.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 12, 2019, 07:37:44 am

What I would like to find is something to relate beats per watt per duration.  This would give a true measure of aerobic ability. You could do it easily enough for an hour as average watts/average HR. But I can’t work out how I would model the effects of long duration fade.

That is a very interesting idea, I think I'll analyse my recent Seiler zone 1 rides (similar to MAF) and see what I can come up with. I don't think it could be called a "true" measure though but a useful personal indication.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Phil W on February 12, 2019, 09:07:36 am
What I would like to find is something to relate beats per watt per duration.  This would give a true measure of aerobic ability. You could do it easily enough for an hour as average watts/average HR. But I can’t work out how I would model the effects of long duration fade.

I do not know whether you have read Joe Friel's Fast after Fifty - he covers the above.

The watts / HR he calls efficiency factor and it is one of things he suggests you measure for a repeatable steady state effort. He suggests the intensity should be at 30+/-2bpm below your lactate threshold heart rate.   He calls it Aerobic Threshold (not to be confused with Aerobic Capacity) So lower than what MAF would predict for me, but sure that 180 - age thing is is based on some sort of bell curve analysis so is only making a good guess. As you get aerobically fitter you should see your efficiency factor improving. If you do not have access to power then you can take your average speed and HR to calculate an efficiency factor.  Just keep it consistent, whatever you are measuring / calculating.

The latter he calls decoupling - where you get heart rate drift for a long steady state effort.   He suggests you monitor this during your base phases and when heart rate decoupling becomes low, your aerobic base is built,  you are ready to move onto your next stage of training.

Interestingly my resting heart rate is dropping, and my maximum heart rate (for the bike) is increasing as I get fitter through my training.  This is only my second year of structured training and these are not things I was really monitoring on a regular basis last year. 

It is all fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Phil W on February 12, 2019, 09:45:25 am
Personally I’m not sure I would follow strict MAF at 60  unless you are very new to exercise.   There is a huge amount of research that shows lifting heavy weights combined with intensity and more rest would be more effective as we age.   I think you might have more to lose than to gain from MAF.  I am of course no expert.

Indeed Vo2Max shows the biggest decline (about 1.5% a year from your 30's) as we age, most other markers of fitness do not see so much of a decline.  But since most of us have never reached the V02max our genetics would enable us to reach, it can be slowed, halted, or even reversed (not the genetic decline but how close our realised Vo2max is to its ceiling) for a period.   Of course if you were an Olympics athlete when younger then your best years are probably past. 

Most of the research is of course with sedentary adults with not much study of life long athletes / active people.  So how much of the the decline is inevitable, at what ages, and to what extent, is now being questioned.

But the research is pointing to including regular intense exercise throughout your life.  As you say you just need more recovery, which again will vary by person.  But as it is during recovery that your body makes the improvements, that is not such a bad thing.  Younger folk just get away with bad habits when it comes to lack of recovery.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 12, 2019, 09:46:02 am
Chris isn't taking about aerobic decoupling I don't think, my analysis software does that automatically for the whole session and each individual interval.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Phil W on February 12, 2019, 09:49:10 am
Chris isn't taking about aerobic decoupling I don't think, my analysis software does that automatically for the whole session and each individual interval.

Well, it sounded like it to me, but we will need to see what he meant when he replies.   Maybe he is not sure himself. If he means audax durations then that is a whole different ball park with about zero research ;D
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 12, 2019, 11:03:53 am
Chris isn't taking about aerobic decoupling I don't think, my analysis software does that automatically for the whole session and each individual interval.

Not that I take any notice of it any more as it's a pointless metric and possibly just cardiac drift repackaged. Certainly I get less decoupling with a fan on than not for otherwise identical sessions.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: LMT on February 12, 2019, 12:18:41 pm
Chris isn't taking about aerobic decoupling I don't think, my analysis software does that automatically for the whole session and each individual interval.

He was, HTH.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 12, 2019, 12:39:44 pm
Chris isn't taking about aerobic decoupling I don't think, my analysis software does that automatically for the whole session and each individual interval.

He was, HTH.
;D
You don't actually know what aerobic decoupling is do you?

This might help you https://sporttracks.mobi/blog/what-is-aerobic-decoupling (https://sporttracks.mobi/blog/what-is-aerobic-decoupling)
GC calculate it as a %

He may be thinking that but it's not beats/watt per duration.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: LMT on February 12, 2019, 12:51:03 pm
Chris isn't taking about aerobic decoupling I don't think, my analysis software does that automatically for the whole session and each individual interval.

He was, HTH.
;D
You don't actually know what aerobic decoupling is do you?

This might help you https://sporttracks.mobi/blog/what-is-aerobic-decoupling (https://sporttracks.mobi/blog/what-is-aerobic-decoupling)
GC calculate it as a %

He may be thinking that but it's not beats/watt per duration.

Chris is after a way to measure his aerobic endurance - this can be done via a decoupling test.

Trevor
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 12, 2019, 03:31:10 pm

What I would like to find is something to relate beats per watt per duration.  This would give a true measure of aerobic ability. You could do it easily enough for an hour as average watts/average HR. But I can’t work out how I would model the effects of long duration fade.

That is a very interesting idea, I think I'll analyse my recent Seiler zone 1 rides (similar to MAF) and see what I can come up with. I don't think it could be called a "true" measure though but a useful personal indication.

First analysis based on my Seiler Zone 1 rides (similar to MAF in that they are targeted to be below 80%HRmax) during January (before it got cold) show no correlation between average W/bpm and duration.

Data here:
(http://www.nrtoone.com/allowhotlinking/cyc_eff.png)

Three rides were completely in Z1, of durations 90, 184 and 206 minutes, from these it would seem that the efficiency is increasing with time, i.e. more power/HR, but another 3 rides were only 11% or less above Z1 and if you consider these as well then the P/bpm is not showing a trend.

I have including the Aerobic coupling value as calculated by the Golden Cheetah algorithm for Trevor if he finds it useful.

Everyone is different so if someone else were to do this intervention (n=1) then the results could of course be different.

PS it was a rough and ready exercise so I missed off units from the table, I'd have marked my students down for that obviously!  O:-)

PPS If you spot anything I didn't please let me know, as well as any other things worth looking at and/or evaluating.

Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 14, 2019, 11:41:50 am
Is it necessary to get some sort of hrm to do this type of training?

Been wondering about getting a smart watch device thingy for kayaking.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 14, 2019, 01:00:50 pm
I think you could do this training without a heart rate monitor if you really knew your body.  However a HRM with audible alerts for too high and too low is probably essential for all but the most elite sports people.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: offcumden on February 14, 2019, 08:14:32 pm
Is it necessary to get some sort of hrm to do this type of training?
As MAF training is at the 'bottom end' of effort level, it wouldn't be difficult just to work on perceived effort. Thus, the old maxim of 'if you can talk in long sentences, you are just about right'. Where a HRM with audible alerts would be more useful is to target intermediate zones (say, sweetspot).
Once you've used a HRM you do get to know what the levels feel like. I was out today for a MAF type ride, with a HRM watch on my 'bars. I found that I could predict my HR within a couple of beats, even as the road went up and down.  Mind you, I have had a bit of practice at pace judgement - Something like 60 years  ::-)
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 14, 2019, 08:30:06 pm
Is it necessary to get some sort of hrm to do this type of training?
As MAF training is at the 'bottom end' of effort level, it wouldn't be difficult just to work on perceived effort. Thus, the old maxim of 'if you can talk in long sentences, you are just about right'. Where a HRM with audible alerts would be more useful is to target intermediate zones (say, sweetspot).
Once you've used a HRM you do get to know what the levels feel like. I was out today for a MAF type ride, with a HRM watch on my 'bars. I found that I could predict my HR within a couple of beats, even as the road went up and down.  Mind you, I have had a bit of practice at pace judgement - Something like 60 years  ::-)

There was a 4 level system I used for coaching in the '80s;
L1: can speak in complete sentences without pausing for breath.
L2: can speak in complete sentences but need pause after each one.
L3: can speak only ~3 words at a time.
L4: had to catch your breath after every word.

Not sure where I got it from  but I think it was fairly standard as HRMs only just became common.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: offcumden on February 14, 2019, 08:44:13 pm
Yes, and if you find yourself alongside someone whose incessant chatter is driving you barmy, the remedy is simple, if not always easy to carry out.
Title: Re: MAF Method
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 15, 2019, 07:43:56 am
Is it necessary to get some sort of hrm to do this type of training?
As MAF training is at the 'bottom end' of effort level, it wouldn't be difficult just to work on perceived effort. Thus, the old maxim of 'if you can talk in long sentences, you are just about right'. Where a HRM with audible alerts would be more useful is to target intermediate zones (say, sweetspot).
Once you've used a HRM you do get to know what the levels feel like. I was out today for a MAF type ride, with a HRM watch on my 'bars. I found that I could predict my HR within a couple of beats, even as the road went up and down.  Mind you, I have had a bit of practice at pace judgement - Something like 60 years  ::-)

There was a 4 level system I used for coaching in the '80s;
L1: can speak in complete sentences without pausing for breath.
L2: can speak in complete sentences but need pause after each one.
L3: can speak only ~3 words at a time.
L4: had to catch your breath after every word.

Not sure where I got it from  but I think it was fairly standard as HRMs only just became common.
I think that is missing L5

Feeling you are about to die, lungs are burning, vision is going dark and when you stop you can't actually move and possibly vomit.