Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => PBP 2019 => Topic started by: Graeme on January 31, 2019, 08:14:10 am

Title: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Graeme on January 31, 2019, 08:14:10 am
 :facepalm:

I see a few disgruntled comments about already-booked-plane-tickets etc... shorter queues on the unofficial PBP. I do hope there won't be a problem with freeloaders this August. I remember stamping cards at the end of one of my own events, and handing out complimentary food and drink, when one cyclist said to me, 'Oh no, I don't have a card, I was just riding round'. I'm not sure that freeloaders are aware of how unpopular they are. #NotClever
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Alex B on January 31, 2019, 08:50:52 am
'Oh no, I don't have a card, I was just riding round'

It's a strange parallel world - does it happen much? I've heard there are riders on the Bryan Chapman who are just tagging along. Were there such riders for LEL 2017?

I suppose the answer would be a "no brevet card, no access to facilities" approach - but it seems tough for organizers to be required to police things this way.

I've often thought of planning a DIY to coincide with a local sportive to give the route the added interest of riders to chase down - but of course I wouldn't then use the facilities (such as they are) provided by the sportive organizers.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Tomsk on January 31, 2019, 09:15:54 am
Certainly happens occasionally on our ACME events, usually mates tagging along with an official entry. Not really a problem on 'X' rated pub start/finish events, and otherwise they have the good grace to avoid freeloading on the arrivee food.

On PBP there's usually very strict checking of brevets against riders' frame numbers at the start and finish; along the way at controls I'm not so sure, though I think bike security is the main priority. I've seen club-mates accompanying and encouraging riders on the final kms - no frame numbers, luggage, looking fresh, but careful to not provide shelter. That'll be the law-abiding French for you - not quite the anarchists this side of the ditch.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: markldn on January 31, 2019, 09:47:08 am
To give a voice to the sincere, if I went unofficially on any audax I would not make use of the facilities.  Just the roads and the atmosphere.

Interesting point about DIYing.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Graeme on January 31, 2019, 10:17:46 am
Would the 'roads and the atmosphere' be there if the organiser hadn't gone to the trouble of putting an event on? Would having a 50/50 mix of those taking part and those riding unofficially change that dynamic? What would be the tipping point? Does the organiser's risk assessment mean anything - and for this I'm thinking about the documents I have to provide to the Humber Bridge Authority for permission to run my event over their bridge. If there were similar risk assessments required by French authorities - what could the impact be of free-spirits tagging along - might it jeopardize the whole event in the future? I hope there isn't a groundswell movement to just ride the event anyway... look what happened to Glastonbury to prevent 'people coming along anyway'.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: T42 on January 31, 2019, 10:41:40 am
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on January 31, 2019, 12:46:34 pm
Where do you draw the line between riding your own "event" on what are after all public roads and freeloading? On the Ball Buster 200 last year I got talking to a rider I know a bit and it turned out he hadn't officially entered. The event sells out very early (places open 1st Jan, sold out already, event is 7th April this year) and he hadn't secure a place. I'm not sure what he did at controls but here's the first thing: on this event, the controls are run by local charities. All the money raised by selling food goes to them. There's also a charity box (for a nominated national charity) at the start/arrivee. And I've never known them run out of food, despite being a perennial tail ender. And the second thing: this particular rider is not a big audaxer but is heavily involved in the local cycling community/scene/economy, working in a local cycling charity and used to be on the editorial team of Boneshaker magazine before that closed. I don't think his presence in any detracted from the event and probably raised a few more quid for the various charities.

He's probably not the typical "riding with my mate" non-entrant, who might simply be skimping on a few quid entry fee, and clearly it's different where there are organiser-provided facilities, as on PBP.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 31, 2019, 12:48:40 pm
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.

^ So unlikely to happen that It isn't worth mentioning, I suspect.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: The French Tandem on January 31, 2019, 01:39:36 pm

It's a strange parallel world - does it happen much? I've heard there are riders on the Bryan Chapman who are just tagging along. Were there such riders for LEL 2017?

There was at least one famous case on LEL 2017

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104426.0

The two of us were volunteers at Barnanrd Castle, and I have to admit, I never noticed him!
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: The French Tandem on January 31, 2019, 01:50:09 pm
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.

Yes, you are right, but it seems to become a standard practice here that no matter how carefully you plan your event, a growing number of freeloaders will come, and in some cases, might completely ruin your event. Think about some recent gilets jaunes events. At the beginning, it was just about cheering/honking others at roundabout before it turned into serious clashes between heavily armed freeloaders and riot  police...  Anyway I think you should expect serious police checks before/during the next PBP.

Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: T42 on January 31, 2019, 03:15:21 pm
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.

^ So unlikely to happen that It isn't worth mentioning, I suspect.

I've had to cancel events declared two months in advance because a vintage-car tour suddenly wanted to use the same roads: they pay, we don't.

The préfecture clobbered a good few events in our area by demanding marshals at all intersections. OK, not because of freeloaders but simply because the prefect took a scunner against cyclists, citing the European Parliament as an excuse: he didn't want accidents cluttering up the roads.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: vorsprung on January 31, 2019, 08:46:49 pm
I used to think that this was very rare and basically it didn't happen

However, since running my own 400km (Avalon Sunrise 400) event I've found that it does happen

On my event, the extra people are insignificant for eating extra pie at the controls and I've never had trouble with an accident involving uninsured riders
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 31, 2019, 10:45:45 pm
Yes but the point here is that you should not be a t***t. Would you just go into someones house and make a cup of tea and say. Oh well just passing and you have plenty of tea bags left? Where does this end?

 :-\

BB
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: markldn on February 01, 2019, 12:26:52 pm

It's a strange parallel world - does it happen much? I've heard there are riders on the Bryan Chapman who are just tagging along. Were there such riders for LEL 2017?

There was at least one famous case on LEL 2017

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104426.0

The two of us were volunteers at Barnanrd Castle, and I have to admit, I never noticed him!

Sounds like rogue motorhomes were the real problem rather than rogue riders.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: mzjo on February 08, 2019, 09:43:40 pm
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.

^ So unlikely to happen that It isn't worth mentioning, I suspect.

I've had to cancel events declared two months in advance because a vintage-car tour suddenly wanted to use the same roads: they pay, we don't.

The préfecture clobbered a good few events in our area by demanding marshals at all intersections. OK, not because of freeloaders but simply because the prefect took a scunner against cyclists, citing the European Parliament as an excuse: he didn't want accidents cluttering up the roads.

A few events (sportives) in our area got hit like that and had to cancel because they didn't have enough bodies available as marshals. We almost suffered the same fate with one of our randonnées, initially having a demand for marshals to control all the junctions and having to explain at length that we weren't a race and that our riders rode as individuals and were bound to obey the Code de la Route. The préfecture doesn't understand the differences between racing and touring (not helped by UFOLEP sportives being described as cyclotouriste events)

Back to the OP there was a PBP DIY route. There was a ride report on the Randonneur Longue Distance forum a few years ago. I will have to trawl and see if I can find it to link (all in french I'm sorry)
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: rogerzilla on February 08, 2019, 10:01:55 pm
Is the moral argument any different if the event is fully subscribed?  Is it freeloading if they were willing to pay, but couldn't?  I appreciate they're still unwelcome but they presumably pay their taxes too and have the same right to use the roads.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Ivo on February 08, 2019, 10:40:21 pm
Is the moral argument any different if the event is fully subscribed?  Is it freeloading if they were willing to pay, but couldn't?  I appreciate they're still unwelcome but they presumably pay their taxes too and have the same right to use the roads.

Well, it depends if you take a legalistic or a moral view.
Riding the route in any of the other 51 weeks is ok.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: mzjo on February 08, 2019, 11:02:09 pm
Is the moral argument any different if the event is fully subscribed?  Is it freeloading if they were willing to pay, but couldn't?  I appreciate they're still unwelcome but they presumably pay their taxes too and have the same right to use the roads.

Well, it depends if you take a legalistic or a moral view.
Riding the route in any of the other 51 weeks is ok.

The road is available to all (unless it's been closed, eg Etape du Tour, certain other sportives).
Eating the food provided by the controls when you are not entered in an event is theft, pure and simple (just like not paying in a bar or restaurant). It doesn't matter that you might have liked to pay up and ride; you are not in, it is theft.
The moral problem comes when you follow waymarking or a GPS track done by others for a paying event. Someone marks the public highway, legally there is nothing to stop you following it. But morally you are profiting from some one else's work without paying for it.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: mzjo on February 08, 2019, 11:21:06 pm
PBP perm   http://pbpaujourlejour.over-blog.com/

Apparently there is an official FFCT PBP permanent. I will find it
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 09, 2019, 07:58:13 am
Potential participants shouldn't get the impression that there is any food other than at the finish included in the price of PBP.

You pay as you go along, and the prices at controls aren't too far out of line with commercial offers. However, they are open overnight.

The web has changed the perception of PBP. It makes it seem accessible to all, a sort of right. Before the 1990s you would only have heard of PBP through riding Audax, or in magazines, which you would have paid for. Knowledge came at a price. You also would have had no means of demonstrating that you'd done the route. Making up your own Brevet card would have looked a bit sad. But on Strava your followers could be giving you kudos.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Kim on February 09, 2019, 08:00:36 am
Kudos on Strava doesn't mean anything, thobut.

Well, that's not quite true.  It seems to be a function of the time of day you upload the ride:  I tend to get more kudos for 5km trips to the shops than I do for proper rides.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 09, 2019, 08:01:44 am
Kudos on Strava doesn't mean anything, thobut.

Well, that's not quite true.  It seems to be a function of the time of day you upload the ride:  I tend to get more kudos for 5km trips to the shops than I do for proper rides.

How did they react when you did PBP?

It's a similar story to those who decide they'll have a go at the LEJOG record on their own, using Strava as proof. The average punter can't see the distinction between that and the RRA record.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Ivo on February 09, 2019, 08:24:02 am
The moral issue is also that a certain amount of non official riders on the road will cause issues for the organisation. Issues with the authorities who place a maximum amount of riders.
This is not only the case with PBP but also with other big events. So if you wish to destroy an event, go ahead, ride with your mates on the official day on the official course and cause the authorities to withdraw permission for the next edition, ruining a participation next time for yourself and for others.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 09, 2019, 08:33:59 am
Of course that only stands for events which require permission from the authorities.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Bianchi Boy on February 09, 2019, 08:54:26 am
People keep confusing the legal and moral aspects. Yes it is legal to ride PBP at the same time as the official ride, and when I tode it there was a group of riders who were joined by friends for part of the route. But it is not good practice and it makes you a t**t and a thief if you use any of the controls.

Sent from my H8216 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Von Broad on February 09, 2019, 09:03:04 am
Yes it is legal to ride PBP at the same time as the official ride

Especially the French who may live along the 760 mile route and fancy taking a spin on their own roads at that particular time.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Ivo on February 09, 2019, 09:55:16 am
Of course that only stands for events which require permission from the authorities.

Which is for example PBP
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 09, 2019, 11:28:50 am
No, I'm not confusing the two. If, as on all UK Audax events (with the possible exception of LEL) there is no rider limit placed on rider numbers by authorities then there can be no moral impediment in the sense that unofficial riders will threaten the future of the event by swelling the event numbers beyond the limit imposed by authorities.

Unofficial riders using paid-for controls is immoral. Riders using tarmac and cafes isn't as it implies that for a given moment public resources are only to be used by entrants to a private fee paying event.

There have been suggestions that people even riding routes that coincide with routes used by an audax, regardless of when they are ridden, is "intellectual theft". This is clearly bollocks, and serves to demonstrate how out of touch with reality some audaxes are.

It's worth remembering that although audaxers get jolly excited about PBP, it is only about as big an event in terms of rider numbers as the average sportive. In the cycling world, audax is largely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: SPB on February 09, 2019, 03:48:42 pm
No, I'm not confusing the two....

Unofficial riders using paid-for controls is immoral.

Surely that'd be illegal, not just immoral.   There are laws against it.  Like obtaining services and goods by deception.

Using a gpx that someone has been created for the exclusive use of paying participants wouldn't be illegal.  There are no laws against it.  But it would be considered immoral.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 09, 2019, 05:03:56 pm
I suppose that would come down to what you would consider 'use'.  Are there laws against using a toilet in McDonald's if you have no intention of purchasing food? It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Ajax Bay on February 09, 2019, 05:23:22 pm
Using a gpx that someone has been created for the exclusive use of paying participants wouldn't be illegal.  There are no laws against it.  But it would be considered immoral.
Sorry. I don't think following a route described by a gpx file is immoral, whoever has created the file. It's a route description; no more, no less; and as has been said, the roads are free to ride, without the handicap of moral conflict.
I'm pleased to see all and every cyclist out on the roads. Confess I was not so pleased to see some LEL riders joined by a strong rider from St Ives who shamelessly (well the blokes showed no shame) offered her wheel to all and sundry (so I rode away from them  O:-) and got lost in Cambridge). On the plus side it would have been nice for the well built dad to have support and the riding companionship of his daughter (assumed :) ) on that last day after the 'winds'.
"9.9.3   Participants may ride singly or in groups and may pace each other but may not be paced by
any other cyclist [ie non-participant] or motor vehicle."
If I wish to use a loo in a pub or even a McDonalds (without being a customer), I will always ask permission. To use it without permission is impolite (but not immoral imo).
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: SPB on February 09, 2019, 06:53:42 pm
Immoral isn't the word I'd use either for that scenario, but the distinction between illegal and immoral was under discussion so I stuck with the wording.

Personally, I'd say it's not the done thing to use a gpx file that was created exclusively for paying people.  I'd say if you coincidentally chose to ride the same roads at the same time that'd be nobody's business but your own.  But if you used something prepared for paying participants then you'd be taking the Mick.

WRT services at controls I was thinking more of any food that might be laid on.  But, since toilets have come up, if an organiser has paid to hire a village hall for use by the participants and you just waltz in and use the loo without asking then I see that as no different to someone walking into your house and using your loo without asking.  It'd be a tort not a crime, but I still wouldn't do it. 
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: grams on February 09, 2019, 08:17:33 pm
Using a gpx that someone has been created for the exclusive use of paying participants wouldn't be illegal.  There are no laws against it.  But it would be considered immoral.

Are we talking about riding the route the same day as the ride (i.e. as if on the event), or riding the route some other day? Because you'd be hard pressed to find many people who consider the latter immoral.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: mzjo on February 09, 2019, 09:15:57 pm
Yes it is legal to ride PBP at the same time as the official ride

Especially the French who may live along the 760 mile route and fancy taking a spin on their own roads at that particular time.

This is the case for PBP.  Don't try it with L,Etape du Tour unless you particularly enjoy arguing the point with the gendarmes who are closing the route. I think the final day of the Ardechoise may be a similar case, although the only people I know who have ridden the final day of the Ardechoise were in the event. It doesn't matter who you are or where you live, when the gendarmes close the road for an event, any event, they close it and that's that. (This happens to me one afternoon of the year for the final of the Tour du Limousin, every year).

No, I'm not confusing the two. If, as on all UK Audax events (with the possible exception of LEL) there is no rider limit placed on rider numbers by authorities then there can be no moral impediment in the sense that unofficial riders will threaten the future of the event by swelling the event numbers beyond the limit imposed by authorities.


It's worth remembering that although audaxers get jolly excited about PBP, it is only about as big an event in terms of rider numbers as the average sportive. In the cycling world, audax is largely irrelevant.

I think you need to justify that last bit. I have been googling for cyclosportive rider numbers without much success but the biggest would appear to be L'Etape with 15000 participants being quoted. The Ardechoise used to be 14000 and probably still is since that was the limit that the organisers reckoned to be safe for the roads and organisation. The Marmotte would appear to be about 6000. All these events are one day events and don't get much publicity (won't make national news for example) so the average public don't even know what they are, let alone where (difficult with L'Etape which changes venue every year). PBP for all it's amateurism does get it's bit on the national news.
In size how do you want to make the calculation? Riders x distance? Riders x time? Budget?

I think the "average" sportive in France is probably about 1000 riders over one day and 200kms. VéloPassion used to produce a hit list with rider numbers but so far I have not found anything (perhaps because I am asking in french).
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Bianchi Boy on February 09, 2019, 09:23:14 pm
I suppose that would come down to what you would consider 'use'.  Are there laws against using a toilet in McDonald's if you have no intention of purchasing food? It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?
Pushing the limits of t**t to the limit.

Do you want to make people join in what you and make a good thing happen or do or have everything going to anarchy?

BB
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: SPB on February 09, 2019, 09:23:57 pm
Using a gpx that someone has been created for the exclusive use of paying participants wouldn't be illegal.  There are no laws against it.  But it would be considered immoral.

Are we talking about riding the route the same day as the ride (i.e. as if on the event), or riding the route some other day? Because you'd be hard pressed to find many people who consider the latter immoral.

I think the discussion is on the former: doing it on the same day, at the same time as the organised event.  At least that's the assumption what I've based my comments on.

I was replying to a poster who'd said that would be illegal.  My point was only that it wouldn't be illegal, though it would be considered (by most) to be wrong.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 09, 2019, 10:43:07 pm

Unofficial riders using paid-for controls is immoral. Riders using tarmac and cafes isn't as it implies that for a given moment public resources are only to be used by entrants to a private fee paying event.


I'd disagree. Many an Audax organiser will limit their ride numbers based on things like the cafe at CP3 can't cope of 300 riders turn up, so let's limit it to 200. If you start using all the same controls, at all the same times, you're just being an arse. It may be legal, but imagine if someone ends up over time, as you slowed down how fast they could get through that cafe control that the organisers put so much effort in to making sure matched ride capacity? I'd say riding the same route, using the same controls, at the same time makes someone an arse, plain and simple.

Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 09, 2019, 10:55:06 pm
I'd never cause somebody to be out of time because I was in front of them in a cafe queue, because I never get anywhere near a time limit, and if the putative rider could get anywhere near me neither would they.

Thus I could, should I wish so to do, ride the route of an audax on the same day and at the same time without fear of moral turpitude. O:-)
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: FifeingEejit on February 09, 2019, 11:09:07 pm
Immoral isn't the word I'd use either for that scenario, but the distinction between illegal and immoral was under discussion so I stuck with the wording.

Personally, I'd say it's not the done thing to use a gpx file that was created exclusively for paying people.


When it comes to a GPX file or Routesheet (or any other way of publishing a route), it may be both Illegal and Immoral through the protections of copyright law (which protects the moral rights of the author by making unauthorised copying illegal) applying to it and the method of its release may apply distribution restrictions to further make it a breach of contract to possess if you don't have an entry.

When it comes to UK sportives, the situation depends on the form of road closure applied for, if it's only a traffic class restriction then the road is open to the classes of traffic not stated as restricted; you could ride to the shops without breeching the restriction. Though doing the full route and going through the start/finish is rather dickish.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: grams on February 09, 2019, 11:16:37 pm
I'd never cause somebody to be out of time because I was in front of them in a cafe queue, because I never get anywhere near a time limit, and if the putative rider could get anywhere near me neither would they.

Hang on, that doesn't work! Arriving early means you delay *more* people, assuming they're running flat out, and means you get first dibs the best cake and someone who entered might not get any...

(Clearly there's moral purity to being Lanterne Rouge)
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: mzjo on February 09, 2019, 11:19:23 pm
So is it immoral to select a section of the PBP route 1200kms long, ride it to get the most benefit of the other riders and claim a DIY 1200? Using the PBP waymarking of course.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 09, 2019, 11:20:37 pm
It's hardly unusual for two groups of cyclists to be in the same cafe at the same time by coincidence. If one group is doing an audax and the other is out for a less structured leisure ride or on tour, does that give the audaxers priority? It is unusual for there to be no non-cyclists in the cafe at the same time. Same question applies.

GPX files don't just come from organisers. If your mate rode an audax (or a sportive, same would apply) last year and has been enthusing about so that you fancy following the same route but without the hassle of time limits and tying yourself down to a particular day in advance, is it in any way wrong for you to use your mate's gpx to do so?
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 10, 2019, 07:16:31 am
I suppose that would come down to what you would consider 'use'.  Are there laws against using a toilet in McDonald's if you have no intention of purchasing food? It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?
Pushing the limits of t**t to the limit.

Do you want to make people join in what you and make a good thing happen or do or have everything going to anarchy?

BB

Have you sat in a packed McDonald's? It's the very definition of anarchy.

The last time I used a toilet in one during an audax I found it had a calming influence on everyone.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 10, 2019, 08:19:58 am
I suppose one group that might be tempted to do an 'unofficial' PBP are those who've failed to finish in previous events.

They paid for the use of controls in their year of failure, so they could argue to themselves the they're just swapping their use of the course and controls for those who are dropping out in the current event.

Perhaps that could work if they used McDonalds' up to the point where they packed in the past.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 10, 2019, 08:38:39 am

When it comes to a GPX file or Routesheet (or any other way of publishing a route), it may be both Illegal and Immoral through the protections of copyright law (which protects the moral rights of the author by making unauthorised copying illegal) applying to it and the method of its release may apply distribution restrictions to further make it a breach of contract to possess if you don't have an entry.

I think the copyright issue would be if you copied and redistributed, particularly for profit. If you just came across a gpx file and followed the route yourself is that more like finding a book a deciding to pick it up a read it? my

Quote
When it comes to UK sportives, the situation depends on the form of road closure applied for, if it's only a traffic class restriction then the road is open to the classes of traffic not stated as restricted; you could ride to the shops without breeching the restriction. Though doing the full route and going through the start/finish is rather dickish.

Sometimes I see sportive direction signs, quite common for sportives to go through my home town, and I'll decide to follow the signs for no other reason than it'll be a bit of a mystery tour on roads I know well. I may chat to other riders who are doing the sportive but I chat to almost every cyclist I pass anyway.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 10, 2019, 10:21:48 am
I suppose one group that might be tempted to do an 'unofficial' PBP are those who've failed to finish in previous events.

They paid for the use of controls in their year of failure, so they could argue to themselves the they're just swapping their use of the course and controls for those who are dropping out in the current event.

Perhaps that could work if they used McDonalds' up to the point where they packed in the past.

That would be a sub-set of previously non-homologated  riders. Amongst those riders who have packed for various reasons, such as illness or a failure to meet time limits (not something of which I can claim even the remotest experience), will be those who packed out of sheer mindnumbing boredom.

They are unlikely to return as either official or unofficial riders.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Ben T on February 10, 2019, 11:02:25 am
I suppose that would come down to what you would consider 'use'.  Are there laws against using a toilet in McDonald's if you have no intention of purchasing food? It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?

I think I would consider using a toilet in McDonalds less immoral than joining an audax without paying. The analogy only really works if the whole point of going to McDonalds was to gather there with other likeminded individuals for an organised, fun, communal shitting event.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 10, 2019, 11:15:05 am

 ;D

How many audaxers would it take to qualify? I'm saying two.

Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 10, 2019, 11:17:29 am
That would be a hazardous event. Second only to eating the burgers.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: FifeingEejit on February 10, 2019, 01:31:16 pm

When it comes to a GPX file or Routesheet (or any other way of publishing a route), it may be both Illegal and Immoral through the protections of copyright law (which protects the moral rights of the author by making unauthorised copying illegal) applying to it and the method of its release may apply distribution restrictions to further make it a breach of contract to possess if you don't have an entry.

I think the copyright issue would be if you copied and redistributed, particularly for profit. If you just came across a gpx file and followed the route yourself is that more like finding a book a deciding to pick it up a read it? my

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When it comes to UK sportives, the situation depends on the form of road closure applied for, if it's only a traffic class restriction then the road is open to the classes of traffic not stated as restricted; you could ride to the shops without breeching the restriction. Though doing the full route and going through the start/finish is rather dickish.

Sometimes I see sportive direction signs, quite common for sportives to go through my home town, and I'll decide to follow the signs for no other reason than it'll be a bit of a mystery tour on roads I know well. I may chat to other riders who are doing the sportive but I chat to almost every cyclist I pass anyway.

In order to use a route sheet you must print it, in order to use a GPX file you must copy it or produce a derivative work.
The picking up a book is analogous to the organizer leaving printed copies of the route sheet lying around for everyone to pick up.

Sportive signs are a tad different, they're up there, "published" for people to follow, in order to control who can follow them, they'd need to have the road closed to all non-entrants.
Legally as they aren't prescribed by the TSRGD rules they are illegal obstructions of the highway...

This is of course hair splitting on the subject.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 10, 2019, 06:09:43 pm
I suppose one group that might be tempted to do an 'unofficial' PBP are those who've failed to finish in previous events.

They paid for the use of controls in their year of failure, so they could argue to themselves the they're just swapping their use of the course and controls for those who are dropping out in the current event.

Perhaps that could work if they used McDonalds' up to the point where they packed in the past.

That would be a sub-set of previously non-homologated  riders. Amongst those riders who have packed for various reasons, such as illness or a failure to meet time limits (not something of which I can claim even the remotest experience), will be those who packed out of sheer mindnumbing boredom.

They are unlikely to return as either official or unofficial riders.

I've got a 2015 Brevet card with just the Depart stamp on it. I'd had cataract surgery a month or so before, and wasn't supposed to exert myself. So I rode the first bit to Mortagne, in order to film, and then rode a motorbike for the rest of the event, filming.

That card does feel like unfinished business. I know I wouldn't have got round due to the interruption in training, but the double vision from the cataract was a bit annoying, and I don't like to muck the NHS about.

There's a temptation to do something with the card, perhaps riding the course over a number of days, coinciding with some of the key points. I've finished four times, so it's just a case of there being an itch to scratch. I can understand the disappointment of someone who had their heart set on a finish, but wasn't aware of the impending demand, and can't get a place.
Title: Re: Unofficial PBP
Post by: Graeme on February 10, 2019, 09:45:14 pm
The PBP website:

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We might be led to restrict the number of registrations in order to ensure the safety and quality of this event

An unofficial PBP does increase the difficulty the organisers have in achieving their goals of a safe/quality event. In this thread, a quick review of the adjectives describing those who "ride anyway" includes immoral (or at least impolite), a failure, an arse, a freeloader, a twat, a Kudos seeker, a bit sad, a thief*, an anarchist, dickish, swampists... and I'm not sure but maybe even shittists (?).

On the positive side, at least one person riding an event they hadn't officially entered was a charitable fundraiser.

The consensus here - even among those offering riders the benefit of the doubt - doesn't sound hugely positive. If anyone is searching Google for 'unofficial PBP' I hope they find this resource informative and that, should someone choose to go ahead anyway, they'll have accepted an appropriate adjective for the duration.

*debatable and debated