Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: mattc on May 17, 2019, 07:17:48 pm

Title: Pavement parking
Post by: mattc on May 17, 2019, 07:17:48 pm
https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/transport-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/pavement-parking-17-19/commons-written-submission-form/?fbclid=IwAR1mCdRAwCXBQI154nVjDVAw5KxQz9y9B65Vu7gUmtwzkRC2hI3yAuMkTTA

Should have closed on the 14th, but extended for some reason.

If you think pavement parking is a growing modern nuisance, have your say.

(here is what oxford cycling group had to say, if you want some inspiration https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zHDkxyMWJlQebga4k8XyjHsVaI3xjh0X/view?fbclid=IwAR2y_Ygt62vuCEZMj4vBgxQkZICjHwApAeRN6e0-5Wlrdo4mw0oQ0mB1--g )

n.b. they ask for a WORD FILE or similar - there isn't a plain text box to type in. Odd, but there it is!
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Danu on May 17, 2019, 07:22:52 pm
GPX ?
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Kim on May 17, 2019, 07:26:09 pm
I responded to that one a while ago.  Another point is that pavement parking often damages the pavement, which is not usually built to support the weight of motor vehicles, creating long-term hazard for disabled people and wheeled pavement users of all kinds.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Chris S on May 17, 2019, 07:30:13 pm
Not having somewhere to put your shit-heap car when you're not using it is a beef of mine.

I'm fully with Japan on this; nowhere off-road to store your car? No car.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: ian on May 17, 2019, 07:38:05 pm
Can I just write because it's a shitty thing to do. It's a blight here and makes walking frankly unpleasant. It's difficult to use a baby buggy and I imagine impossible for wheelchair users. Anyone of limited mobility will struggle, as will the blind or partially sighted, and for the rest of us, it's annoying to have to periodically step out into a road (and it's often difficult to see over tall cars, especially if you're a shortarse like me). Of course, often the gaps between the pavement parked cars are too narrow to even squeeze out into the road without backtracking several cars. This also increases your chances of meeting an unsympathetic speeding driver.

All said though, I can't see any government changing it for the same reason the local council don't bother with council enforcement. Perhaps the way forward is to make sure pavement accessibility is covered under equality legislation and the sue the fuck out of local councils.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: pcolbeck on May 17, 2019, 07:39:10 pm
Not having somewhere to put your shit-heap car when you're not using it is a beef of mine.

I'm fully with Japan on this; nowhere off-road to store your car? No car.

Bit of a problem if you live in a terraced cottage in a village though. We have several here, front door straight on to the path. There is a bus I suppose. It goes at about 11:00am on a Thursday and comes back at abut 2:00pm the same day. The nearest bus stop with a regular service (once an hour) is about three miles away and that includes a going up and down a steep valley 90m down then 90m up and no path for all of the three miles.  Really a car is the only choice.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: mattc on May 17, 2019, 07:47:44 pm
GPX ?
Stop it - this is a serious social issue!

;D
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Jasmine on May 17, 2019, 08:04:52 pm
Not having somewhere to put your shit-heap car when you're not using it is a beef of mine.

I'm fully with Japan on this; nowhere off-road to store your car? No car.

Bit of a problem if you live in a terraced cottage in a village though. We have several here, front door straight on to the path. There is a bus I suppose. It goes at about 11:00am on a Thursday and comes back at abut 2:00pm the same day. The nearest bus stop with a regular service (once an hour) is about three miles away and that includes a going up and down a steep valley 90m down then 90m up and no path for all of the three miles.  Really a car is the only choice.

I appreciate that I'm a bit radical on this, but maybe people could factor that in when they are purchasing houses?  When I bought my current house, a key factor was distance from where I worked, such that houses outside of my cycleable commute distance were off the radar. If having somewhere to park is a priority, don't look at houses with no parking.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: ian on May 17, 2019, 08:48:17 pm
What Jasmine says. We chose a house so we weren't reliant on driving – it ultimately is a choice. The irony is that it's a lot more difficult purely because people always drive and we've re-engineered a society around that.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: rogerzilla on May 17, 2019, 08:53:09 pm
I think kei cars (small dimensions, special low-powered engines) are exempt from the off-road parking requirement in Japan.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 17, 2019, 10:20:11 pm
Not having somewhere to put your shit-heap car when you're not using it is a beef of mine.

I'm fully with Japan on this; nowhere off-road to store your car? No car.

Bit of a problem if you live in a terraced cottage in a village though. We have several here, front door straight on to the path. There is a bus I suppose. It goes at about 11:00am on a Thursday and comes back at abut 2:00pm the same day. The nearest bus stop with a regular service (once an hour) is about three miles away and that includes a going up and down a steep valley 90m down then 90m up and no path for all of the three miles.  Really a car is the only choice.

I appreciate that I'm a bit radical on this, but maybe people could factor that in when they are purchasing houses?  When I bought my current house, a key factor was distance from where I worked, such that houses outside of my cycleable commute distance were off the radar. If having somewhere to park is a priority, don't look at houses with no parking.
Or be prepared to park at the other end of the village. Perhaps in a car park or something. Parking doesn't have to be in your street or even a neighbouring street, just within walking distance (for most people).
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: MikeFromLFE on May 18, 2019, 07:32:41 am


Or be prepared to park at the other end of the village. Perhaps in a car park or something. Parking doesn't have to be in your street or even a neighbouring street, just within walking distance (for most people).
This idea of having to park directly outside your house is something that seems to have developed slowly over a number of years
When my father got his first car in 1964 he rented a garages street away - this was in Harringay in London - it seemed quite common for the new car owning class to do this. Yes, there were cars parked in the street, but I don't recall many.
Locally (suburban Leicester) I've seen rows of garages / lock-ups demolished to make way for tiny houses - presumably with barely adequate parking spaces.
We have too many cars, too little space, and inadequate alternatives to private car use.



Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: andyoxon on May 18, 2019, 08:24:31 am
Have a look at the situation in this Oxford gmaps streetview (2017) (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7447161,-1.2348017,3a,75y,313.93h,82.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk4ifmQi5VqQXCT6yNndC6g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)...those white lines!?  Wheely bin slalom?
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Jasmine on May 18, 2019, 09:03:05 am
Have a look at the situation in this Oxford gmaps streetview (2017) (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7447161,-1.2348017,3a,75y,313.93h,82.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk4ifmQi5VqQXCT6yNndC6g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)...those white lines!?  Wheely bin slalom?

The council ought to be taken to task for that. Painting a parking box on a pavement doesn't make it legal to park there, so they are encouraging people to park illegally, and like total dicks. It's clear that precisely no thought has been made for anyone who isn't in a vehicle.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: quixoticgeek on May 18, 2019, 10:06:52 am

Bit of a problem if you live in a terraced cottage in a village though. We have several here, front door straight on to the path. There is a bus I suppose. It goes at about 11:00am on a Thursday and comes back at abut 2:00pm the same day. The nearest bus stop with a regular service (once an hour) is about three miles away and that includes a going up and down a steep valley 90m down then 90m up and no path for all of the three miles.  Really a car is the only choice.

The problem here isn't the lack of parking for the car, but the lack of appropriate bus services. The bus should run every 15 mins, the bus stop should be 100m or so walk tops.

While people insist that buses have to be run at a profit, this won't happen. Once people realise the purpose of public transport is to transport the public, then perhaps we can move away from the private car.

OOI, how much bike parking is there at the bus stop with the hourly service?

J
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 18, 2019, 01:32:46 pm
Depends what you mean by "run at a profit". Very few UK bus services make a profit from passengers. Most are subsidised. This is part of the problem.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Basil on May 18, 2019, 01:53:21 pm
Depends what you mean by "run at a profit". Very few UK bus services make a profit from passengers. Most are subsidised. This is part of the problem.

Bus services being subsidised is not part of the problem.  Bus services not being subsidised enough is part of the problem.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 18, 2019, 01:58:20 pm
Depends what you mean by "run at a profit". Very few UK bus services make a profit from passengers. Most are subsidised. This is part of the problem.

Bus services being subsidised is not part of the problem.  Bus services not being subsidised enough is part of the problem.
Well, yes, that's kind of what I meant. Because they require subsidies from local councils, who are all skint, they don't get money so they don't run. Though arguably our reluctance to pay the full cost of travel is also part of the bigger problem (and more so with private transport than public).
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 18, 2019, 02:05:47 pm
Have a look at the situation in this Oxford gmaps streetview (2017) (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7447161,-1.2348017,3a,75y,313.93h,82.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk4ifmQi5VqQXCT6yNndC6g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)...those white lines!?  Wheely bin slalom?

The council ought to be taken to task for that. Painting a parking box on a pavement doesn't make it legal to park there, so they are encouraging people to park illegally, and like total dicks. It's clear that precisely no thought has been made for anyone who isn't in a vehicle.
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure there's no general law against parking on a pavement. It's only illegal where a local law prohibits it, which most places don't have. But maybe there's grounds to challenge this scheme under an access law? It really doesn't look as if there's room to get a wheelchair, pushchair or similar along what remains of that pavement. But you can't see why they've done this, as with cars parked both sides there wouldn't otherwise be room for a vehicle to get down the road. There was a case last summer on a road near me where an ambulance couldn't get to the scene of a heart attack, and fire engines face this problem very commonly.

I'd say the root problem is exactly as you say, no thought having been made for anyone who isn't in a vehicle (including those having heart attacks), compounded with too much rather than too little parking.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: tatanab on May 18, 2019, 02:30:14 pm
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure there's no general law against parking on a pavement. It's only illegal where a local law prohibits it.
True, but driving on the footway is illegal being precisely the same article of law that forbids cycling.  So how do these vehicles get there?  Are they lifted on by forklift?   I used to ask this in conversation with work colleagues to see the puzzled faces.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: mattc on May 18, 2019, 02:32:52 pm
Pavement parking fines? If the laws about parking on/by junctions were enforced on my estate, they could raise the funds to pay for a few hospitals!
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: orienteer on May 18, 2019, 04:47:53 pm
Pavement parking is illegal in London. I thought consideration was being given to making this countrywide, but no sign yet.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Kim on May 18, 2019, 10:03:52 pm
Pavement parking is illegal in London. I thought consideration was being given to making this countrywide, but no sign yet.

See the OP of this thread.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: mattc on May 19, 2019, 08:12:26 am
Pavement parking is illegal in London. I thought consideration was being given to making this countrywide, but no sign yet.

See the OP of this thread.
And sign-up, please!
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Ham on May 19, 2019, 08:52:41 am
Have a look at the situation in this Oxford gmaps streetview (2017) (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7447161,-1.2348017,3a,75y,313.93h,82.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk4ifmQi5VqQXCT6yNndC6g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)...those white lines!?  Wheely bin slalom?

The council ought to be taken to task for that. Painting a parking box on a pavement doesn't make it legal to park there, so they are encouraging people to park illegally, and like total dicks. It's clear that precisely no thought has been made for anyone who isn't in a vehicle.
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure there's no general law against parking on a pavement. It's only illegal where a local law prohibits it, which most places don't have. But maybe there's grounds to challenge this scheme under an access law? It really doesn't look as if there's room to get a wheelchair, pushchair or similar along what remains of that pavement. But you can't see why they've done this, as with cars parked both sides there wouldn't otherwise be room for a vehicle to get down the road. There was a case last summer on a road near me where an ambulance couldn't get to the scene of a heart attack, and fire engines face this problem very commonly.

I'd say the root problem is exactly as you say, no thought having been made for anyone who isn't in a vehicle (including those having heart attacks), compounded with too much rather than too little parking.

AFAIK, it is slightly different. The default is no parking on pavements, but that can and is overridden at a local level by the councils who have responsibility for the roads. No roads (?) operated by TfL allow pavement parking. The rationale is not pavement use but pavement damage.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Mr Larrington on May 19, 2019, 12:37:54 pm
Pavement parking is illegal in London. I thought consideration was being given to making this countrywide, but no sign yet.

FSVO "London" and "illegal".  Within two minutes' walk of Larrington Towers there are places where parking is 100% on the pavement, places where signs order you to park with two wheels on the pavement and places where a single wheel raised an inch above normal road level will net you a ticket.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Kim on May 19, 2019, 12:44:02 pm
Perhaps we could learn from the Dutch:  Parking banned by default unless there's a marked bay, rather than allowed by default unless there's a prohibition.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 19, 2019, 02:48:30 pm
Perhaps we could learn from the Dutch:  Parking banned by default unless there's a marked bay, rather than allowed by default unless there's a prohibition.
I first came across that proposal in the 1980s, when it was suggested that the meaning of yellow lines should be reversed, so you're only allowed to park on them. The motives were as much aesthetic as congestion back then.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 19, 2019, 02:51:11 pm
Parking partly on the pavement in a marked area is pretty standard in Poland and can work quite well. It needs a wide enough area of pavement left outside the parking area and some means of preventing drivers going beyond it; either rigorous ticketing or bollards, trees or similar.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: citoyen on May 19, 2019, 03:00:24 pm
Depends what you mean by "run at a profit".

Presumably the owners and shareholders of bus operating companies are not in it for purely altruistic reasons.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 19, 2019, 07:15:58 pm
And effectively public money has to pay for the bus services and their dividends but with little or no say in how the buses are run.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: spindrift on May 19, 2019, 09:10:59 pm
And council tax payers who may not even have a car end up paying for pavement repairs.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: DuncanM on May 19, 2019, 09:20:20 pm
Have a look at the situation in this Oxford gmaps streetview (2017) (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7447161,-1.2348017,3a,75y,313.93h,82.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk4ifmQi5VqQXCT6yNndC6g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)...those white lines!?  Wheely bin slalom?

The council ought to be taken to task for that. Painting a parking box on a pavement doesn't make it legal to park there, so they are encouraging people to park illegally, and like total dicks. It's clear that precisely no thought has been made for anyone who isn't in a vehicle.
There are road markings like that all over Oxford. I was driving up Divinity Road the other day, and someone pushing their bike up the pavement had to push it onto the road and around a parked car because there wasn't enough space on the pavement. The car was entirely inside the parking white lines.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: ian on May 20, 2019, 10:03:57 am
Pavement parking is illegal in London. I thought consideration was being given to making this countrywide, but no sign yet.

FSVO "London" and "illegal".  Within two minutes' walk of Larrington Towers there are places where parking is 100% on the pavement, places where signs order you to park with two wheels on the pavement and places where a single wheel raised an inch above normal road level will net you a ticket.

Across the road from our mothership on Blackfriars Road there's always cars and vans on the pavement – deliveries and facilities for the buildings opposite. Unlike the peril of pavement cycling, I can't imagine the Met being too troubled about someone driving a couple of tonnes for motor vehicle on the pavement. Southwark, I suppose, might be enticed to ticket them.

As part of the wider story, it's interesting how people have been manipulated into car-reliance and still quite often see be entirely dependent on their car as 'freedom' whereas under every measure it's the opposite. It's a huge limit on what we can do, everything is defined by driving and parking, and it's killed much of the idea of locality – if your local high street is a dying scroll of booze-for-kids convenience stores, charity shops, kebabs and junk food, and a betting shop, it's not Amazon that's killed it, it's the car.

I have a fairly modest dream of being able to walk to the train station or town centre, side by side and in conversation with my wife, not having to step out into the road or squeeze through gaps between walls, street furniture and cars. If you've got kids or a buggy, you pretty much have to drive the 5-10 minutes. And once people are in their car, they don't drive to the local high street.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: arabella on May 21, 2019, 11:01:50 am
I have a fairly modest dream of being able to walk to the train station or town centre, side by side and in conversation with my wife, not having to step out into the road or squeeze through gaps between walls, street furniture and cars. If you've got kids or a buggy, you pretty much have to drive the 5-10 minutes. And once people are in their car, they don't drive to the local high street.
Me too.
Though I'd disagree with the 'have to drive' (emboldened by me) - you only HAVE to drive if you make yourself (and if you don't have a car you can't drive, regardless).  We either walked or get the bus but mainly walk - it's only 30 mins to the station which is the other side of the centre.
Where you massively lose by not having a car is all these 'events' that assume you are going to have a car and drive to them - they're pretty much all 100% inaccessible (there was a local even that used to run a bus on some evenings.  Then they moved the event (to be fair nearer, but still not walkable, probably on a bus route if you got yourself to the bus station) and stopped the bus. 
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: PeteB99 on May 21, 2019, 12:26:28 pm
Perhaps we could learn from the Dutch:  Parking banned by default unless there's a marked bay, rather than allowed by default unless there's a prohibition.
I first came across that proposal in the 1980s, when it was suggested that the meaning of yellow lines should be reversed, so you're only allowed to park on them. The motives were as much aesthetic as congestion back then.

The reversal of the meaning of yellow lines is a Monster Raving Loony party manifesto pledge.

https://www.loonyparty.com/proposals/policies-a-z/ (https://www.loonyparty.com/proposals/policies-a-z/)

"Y. YELLOW lines will be painted where you can park instead of where you can’t to save money."
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 21, 2019, 12:29:39 pm
Perhaps we could learn from the Dutch:  Parking banned by default unless there's a marked bay, rather than allowed by default unless there's a prohibition.
I first came across that proposal in the 1980s, when it was suggested that the meaning of yellow lines should be reversed, so you're only allowed to park on them. The motives were as much aesthetic as congestion back then.

The reversal of the meaning of yellow lines is a Monster Raving Loony party manifesto pledge.

https://www.loonyparty.com/proposals/policies-a-z/ (https://www.loonyparty.com/proposals/policies-a-z/)

"Y. YELLOW lines will be painted where you can park instead of where you can’t to save money."
It has been said elsewhere that many of the things the Raving Loonies proposed as jokes have in time become serious law.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Jaded on May 21, 2019, 12:39:33 pm
Buses work fine until you introduce private transport. Then people live and work wherever, and no public transport system can provide a wherever service.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Ham on May 21, 2019, 01:48:38 pm
Buses work fine until you introduce private transport. Then people live and work wherever, and no public transport system can provide a wherever service.

No they don't.

Integrated transport works fine with government support to recognise the value of the system. Buses work well for a local leg of a journey, but will always work past capacity at some times and uneconomically at others. So, again, needing some form of recognition of the value of moving people around. But without an integrated public transport, including private transport, you get nowhere. Fast.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Mr Larrington on May 22, 2019, 12:17:48 pm
Perhaps we could learn from the Dutch:  Parking banned by default unless there's a marked bay, rather than allowed by default unless there's a prohibition.
I first came across that proposal in the 1980s, when it was suggested that the meaning of yellow lines should be reversed, so you're only allowed to park on them. The motives were as much aesthetic as congestion back then.

The reversal of the meaning of yellow lines is a Monster Raving Loony party manifesto pledge.

https://www.loonyparty.com/proposals/policies-a-z/ (https://www.loonyparty.com/proposals/policies-a-z/)

"Y. YELLOW lines will be painted where you can park instead of where you can’t to save money."
It has been said elsewhere that many of the things the Raving Loonies proposed as jokes have in time become serious law.

Back when Sutch was still leading the National Teenage Party he even proposed lowering the voting age to 18 :o
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: caerau on May 22, 2019, 12:36:51 pm
The consideration your average person has for the pedestrian/pushchair/wheelchair/mobility scooter user was writ large in our residential area last year when Cardiff was at the epicentre of that April snow-dump.
After a day or two it melted enough for the vast majority of the ignoramuses residents in our area to shovel all the snow out of their driveways and dump it straight on the pavement in huge piles making the pavement impassable without a chieftain tank.  All the roads near us resembled a groined beach - instead of wooden groins you had snow groins instead.  >:(
These people had front yards (I would say gardens but they're nearly all slabbed over of course) to shovel their snow into, but no - not a thought clearly entered their heads about actually traveling by foot (or wheelchair/mobility scooter).  It is no wonder they park on the pavement - its existence barely registers in their grey-matter - any big-enough space that does not already have a car plonked on it is fair game.


FWIW I shall have a look at the link in the OP and put my support that way. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: arabella on May 22, 2019, 01:04:27 pm
Similarly, as I was reminded this morning:
it's bin day.  if I put my bin on the pavement then together with the cars already parked thereon it's pretty much impassable.  I can't put on the road as there isn't any room between the parked cars.  Or if there is space and I put my bin at the edge of the road to leave the pavement clear, then I find that (either a driver of the bin people) the bin is back on the pavement when I return.
Thus again those with cars having no thought to people using the pavement.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 22, 2019, 01:09:37 pm
Also hedges. People let them grow until they take up half or more the width of the pavement.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: arabella on May 22, 2019, 01:18:51 pm
Yes
and at the same time the verges are mown down before the wildflower seeds are set and propagated
it should be the other way around.  better visibility means risk compensation methinks
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 22, 2019, 01:25:16 pm
Quite a lot of verges have signs on them "Do not mow from <month> to <month>" but they always get mown regardless.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Kim on May 22, 2019, 05:22:39 pm
Similarly, as I was reminded this morning:
it's bin day.  if I put my bin on the pavement then together with the cars already parked thereon it's pretty much impassable.  I can't put on the road as there isn't any room between the parked cars.  Or if there is space and I put my bin at the edge of the road to leave the pavement clear, then I find that (either a driver of the bin people) the bin is back on the pavement when I return.
Thus again those with cars having no thought to people using the pavement.

Nor the people organising the bin rules.  A pavement full of wheeliebins is only marginally more passable than a pavement full of cars.

The proper solution is to specify/pay the refuse collectors appropriately so they can collect the bins from wherever they're stored, rather than rendering the pavement impassable for a day and a half every week (plus the duration of missed collections and any industrial action).  Or do the European thing of having large public bins at regular intervals, possibly with more frequent collections.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: caerau on May 22, 2019, 05:25:52 pm
After my earlier post I now have an urge to get hold of a chieftain tank - though my usage of it might vary from navigating a snow-bound pavement.  :demon: :-D
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: hellymedic on May 22, 2019, 05:38:30 pm
Similarly, as I was reminded this morning:
it's bin day.  if I put my bin on the pavement then together with the cars already parked thereon it's pretty much impassable.  I can't put on the road as there isn't any room between the parked cars.  Or if there is space and I put my bin at the edge of the road to leave the pavement clear, then I find that (either a driver of the bin people) the bin is back on the pavement when I return.
Thus again those with cars having no thought to people using the pavement.

Nor the people organising the bin rules.  A pavement full of wheeliebins is only marginally more passable than a pavement full of cars.

The proper solution is to specify/pay the refuse collectors appropriately so they can collect the bins from wherever they're stored, rather than rendering the pavement impassable for a day and a half every week (plus the duration of missed collections and any industrial action).  Or do the European thing of having large public bins at regular intervals, possibly with more frequent collections.
Our neighbourhood is blessed with generous front gardens and council expects bins within property boundaries but close to pavement. So our pavements don't become a Thursday binfest.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 22, 2019, 08:13:40 pm
Bin parking is a problem. Not every neighbourhood has gardens. The large public bin system works okay where everyone has access to the appropriate bin, but IME that's not always the case. It also reduces the efficiency of recycling, as communal bin, communal recycling tends to equal no one's responsibility. Those obviously are waste disposal and collection problems though, rather than pavement blocks. Bin bags, where they're still used, can be just as cloggy of pavements; although they're usually smaller, they're more untidy and can take up more pavement area. Plus: foxes.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: ian on May 22, 2019, 09:07:50 pm
Apropos of nothing, cycling home tonight, I passed a row of houses. Front gardens used for parking multiple cars. Tick. Cars double parked on (at least a wide) pavement outside? Tick. Even more cars right by the pavement parked cars on the road itself? Tick.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: grams on May 22, 2019, 11:15:03 pm
Cars are a gas that expands to fill all available space.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Greenbank on May 22, 2019, 11:19:06 pm
How about this? (I think he likes cars...) [Note that some of the pavement parking there is legal as it is in signed marked bays on the pavement, but not all of those cars are in marked bays.]

https://goo.gl/maps/WEgjaLbNbrrR92gT8

and my other favourite (on my run that goes the other way) is the half on pavement half on road disabled parking spot with a useful pole all but stopping its use:-

https://goo.gl/maps/gZmLyAQqvXhzdff49
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: ian on May 23, 2019, 09:19:55 am
There's another batch of houses near ours where they have garages, but they park their cars halfway in and out (presumably because the end of the garage is filled with other stuff). So the rear end of the car blocks the pavement to the road. Now you could, of course, walk out into the road, and make a small detail around them. Or rather you can't, because that's where the park their other cars.

Cars will indeed expand to fill all available space be it road or parking. And given a clear lack of parking, it strangely doesn't stop people buying even bigger cars and then complaining they're nowhere to park and someone needs to do something. That someone not being them. The main regulator of parking at the narrow overparked street at the bottom of ours is the bin lorry/wing mirror removal machine.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: caerau on May 23, 2019, 09:41:09 am

https://goo.gl/maps/gZmLyAQqvXhzdff49 (https://goo.gl/maps/gZmLyAQqvXhzdff49)


They must have seconded the supremo of Bike Lane design to come up with that one  :-D
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: caerau on May 23, 2019, 09:42:55 am
There's another batch of houses near ours where they have garages, but they park their cars halfway in and out (presumably because the end of the garage is filled with other stuff). So the rear end of the car blocks the pavement to the road. Now you could, of course, walk out into the road, and make a small detail around them. Or rather you can't, because that's where the park their other cars.

Cars will indeed expand to fill all available space be it road or parking. And given a clear lack of parking, it strangely doesn't stop people buying even bigger cars and then complaining they're nowhere to park and someone needs to do something. That someone not being them. The main regulator of parking at the narrow overparked street at the bottom of ours is the bin lorry/wing mirror removal machine.


Cars actually *in* garages?   :jurek:   On my street it is de-rigeur to convert the garage into another living room - or perhaps a play-den for the kids.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Tim Hall on May 23, 2019, 09:51:03 am
There's another batch of houses near ours where they have garages, but they park their cars halfway in and out (presumably because the end of the garage is filled with other stuff). So the rear end of the car blocks the pavement to the road. Now you could, of course, walk out into the road, and make a small detail around them. Or rather you can't, because that's where the park their other cars.

Cars will indeed expand to fill all available space be it road or parking. And given a clear lack of parking, it strangely doesn't stop people buying even bigger cars and then complaining they're nowhere to park and someone needs to do something. That someone not being them. The main regulator of parking at the narrow overparked street at the bottom of ours is the bin lorry/wing mirror removal machine.


Cars actually *in* garages?   :jurek:   On my street it is de-rigeur to convert the garage into another living room - or perhaps a play-den for the kids.

A couple of years ago I was perusing, for work purposes, the planning application for a small (dozen or so) housing developments. One of the planning conditions was that garages were to be used for cars. I presume they meant "so don't think about converting into another room" rather than "don't fill with bicycles".
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: caerau on May 23, 2019, 10:01:55 am
One thing I do rather like about the new housing developments around us in Cardiff is that they seem to deliberately build them with nowhere near enough space for cars.  My road being an example, we've all got garages (or did at least in most cases) and a driveway with space for 1 car but the road itself is far too narrow for parking - really even with the car almost fully on the pavement.


Doesn't stop a few people still trying to fit 4 wankpanzers around the area per-household but mostly it really does limit the number of cars they can physically possess.  I approve.


I even saw one resident on facebook complaining to my old landlord (a local councillor and Welsh assembly member of some notoriety).  His response was a terse - 'do you really think we need more cars on the road?'   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Pingu on May 23, 2019, 10:08:18 am
Bin parking is a problem. Not every neighbourhood has gardens. The large public bin system works okay where everyone has access to the appropriate bin, but IME that's not always the case. It also reduces the efficiency of recycling, as communal bin, communal recycling tends to equal no one's responsibility. Those obviously are waste disposal and collection problems though, rather than pavement blocks. Bin bags, where they're still used, can be just as cloggy of pavements; although they're usually smaller, they're more untidy and can take up more pavement area. Plus: foxes.

I well remember the state of the streets here on bin day before the introduction of wheelie bins and large communal bins. Only it was seagulls rather than foxes that made most of the mess.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Regulator on May 23, 2019, 10:27:04 am
There's another batch of houses near ours where they have garages, but they park their cars halfway in and out (presumably because the end of the garage is filled with other stuff). So the rear end of the car blocks the pavement to the road. Now you could, of course, walk out into the road, and make a small detail around them. Or rather you can't, because that's where the park their other cars.

Cars will indeed expand to fill all available space be it road or parking. And given a clear lack of parking, it strangely doesn't stop people buying even bigger cars and then complaining they're nowhere to park and someone needs to do something. That someone not being them. The main regulator of parking at the narrow overparked street at the bottom of ours is the bin lorry/wing mirror removal machine.


Cars actually *in* garages?   :jurek:   On my street it is de-rigeur to convert the garage into another living room - or perhaps a play-den for the kids.

A couple of years ago I was perusing, for work purposes, the planning application for a small (dozen or so) housing developments. One of the planning conditions was that garages were to be used for cars. I presume they meant "so don't think about converting into another room" rather than "don't fill with bicycles".

Major developments around here normally carry a requirement for off road parking - and cycle parking.

I'm now sitting on the local planning committee.  We've just rejected a new major redevelopment of a brownfield site as there would be insufficient parking provided, which would adversely impact on surrounding residential areas... and there was insufficient cycle parking.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: ian on May 23, 2019, 11:36:50 am
That's the constant planning fight where I live, there's rarely enough off-street parking but the default would be to stop every development. Realistically any development puts more pressure on the already exhausted on-street parking. I don't think anyone in Surrey has heard of cycling (to be fair, we're on the North Downs, so you've pretty much got to have legs of steel if you plan to cycle, but I hear there are flat bits of Surrey).

I've told the story of the last place we lived, small gated private development of 12 four-bed houses, one parking space each plus a half-dozen guest spaces. The only way we could stop constant stupid parking was to physically block it with large planters with trees in. I mean, you've got four cars so you buy a house with one parking space? If you had four kids, you'd probably think twice about buying a one-bedroom house.

Cars actually *in* garages?   :jurek:   On my street it is de-rigeur to convert the garage into another living room - or perhaps a play-den for the kids.

Actually, thinking again of the houses in question, only one does this, the others have garages set back enough that they use the space in front plus the pavement as a 'driveway.'

Our garage is full of bicycles and Ikea furniture – my wife has hatched a grand plan to turn it into a gym, which I'll leave to her. But we have two (ish), there's a 'tunnel' under the house where the car lives.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: caerau on May 23, 2019, 12:30:13 pm
I think those of us in this forum with garages have a mutually common garage-use policy ;)
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: JonJo on May 23, 2019, 02:25:03 pm
There's another batch of houses near ours where they have garages, but they park their cars halfway in and out (presumably because the end of the garage is filled with other stuff). So the rear end of the car blocks the pavement to the road. Now you could, of course, walk out into the road, and make a small detail around them. Or rather you can't, because that's where the park their other cars.


Cars actually *in* garages?   :jurek:   On my street it is de-rigeur to convert the garage into another living room - or perhaps a play-den for the kids.

Seems that people around here leave £30,000 - £50,000 cars out in the street all the time and use their garages to store a few hundred quids worth of junk. Don't know anyone in our street who uses their garage to store their car. Us included but we have the excuse of having a garage full of bikes
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: PeteB99 on May 23, 2019, 02:42:15 pm
It's been pointed out before that with the increase in size of modern cars they no longer fit into an oldish garage. My garage is late 60s vintage and while I could probably just get the Honda Civic in there I wouldn't be able to open the doors far enough to get out of it. Hence car on driveway and garage contains bikes lawn mower and a kayak. I think there is only one garage in the street that contains a car and that is the guy who owns a WW2 Jeep. A rather smaller vehicle than it's current namesake.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Johnny Faro on May 23, 2019, 03:03:20 pm
There is also the planning not being entirely truthful. A few years ago they demolished all the garages behind my mums house and built more houses. The garages were not much used but this was because they hadn't been allowing hire for a few years ahead of the plans being submitted. Objections were raised and rejected on parking. The new houses get one dedicated space with a bollard but they all have several cars and obviously the previous spaces and garage are gone so every bit of path or grass that can have a car on does. The whole estate is like that with open areas either tarmaced or just allowing parking on grass
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 23, 2019, 03:16:52 pm
... or just allowing parking on grass
Something I first noticed way back in the 90s was in some estates, all the grass is actually concrete. That is, it's grass but it's growing through a concrete grid. Presumably to stop it getting churned up by car wheels, but it also makes it very difficult to walk on.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Johnny Faro on May 23, 2019, 03:46:58 pm
Nah its proper old skool grass, well it was is mostly mud these days.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: hellymedic on May 23, 2019, 05:00:05 pm
... or just allowing parking on grass
Something I first noticed way back in the 90s was in some estates, all the grass is actually concrete. That is, it's grass but it's growing through a concrete grid. Presumably to stop it getting churned up by car wheels, but it also makes it very difficult to walk on.

I think that's called Grasscrete. I suppose it's more robust than ordinary turf. I think it's also used on camping sites, which is a pain if you're using tent pegs.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: ian on May 23, 2019, 06:45:41 pm
It stops the ground turning into a muddy morass when it's wet, though I suspect it's more intended for drivers' convenience in ensuring they don't get stuck.

It's depressing that every vacant space is considered as little more than potential car parking. First we let people concrete or tarmac their front garden, then we let them park in front, then we let them use any available pavement, and still hand over road space. And if that isn't enough, they'll take any available green space too. Of course, drivers' rights trump everything else. We couldn't possibly inconvenience them in any way.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Kim on May 23, 2019, 07:23:03 pm
... or just allowing parking on grass
Something I first noticed way back in the 90s was in some estates, all the grass is actually concrete. That is, it's grass but it's growing through a concrete grid. Presumably to stop it getting churned up by car wheels, but it also makes it very difficult to walk on.

I think that's called Grasscrete. I suppose it's more robust than ordinary turf. I think it's also used on camping sites, which is a pain if you're using tent pegs.

I think the original idea behind that stuff was to avoid the need for a proper tarmac/concrete/gravel surface on an infrequently-used access road.  So you can have grass around the back of your building but still get a fire engine through, or not have to maintain a proper road just to get a lorry to your transmitter site every few years, or whatever.

I've seen it used to good effect on campsites near the entrance to a field, to stop it turning into a quagmire from people driving vehicles over the same patch.  It's not exactly brilliant to ride a bike over.  Not yet had to pitch a tent on it, thobut.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: arabella on May 23, 2019, 09:35:12 pm
... Of course, drivers' rights trump everything else. We couldn't possibly inconvenience them in any way.
I mused on this as I ambled along to vote this evening - once upon a time pedestrians going 'straight on' had right of way over cars turning across them into the side road.  Nowadays they just hurry in 'cos they couldn't possibly inconvenience any diver that might be behind.  It's OK to force the pedestrian to jump back onto the pavement though, you only get rights once you're in a motorcar.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Johnny Faro on May 23, 2019, 09:52:43 pm
I belive pedestrians still do have row across side roads. My driving instructor said no one knew that and pretty much planned on getting run over and using the compensation as a pension.... I don't think he really meant it.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: ian on May 23, 2019, 10:39:18 pm
They do. Though you wouldn't know from the way most people drive. For some reason even basic courtesy evaporates once you move at a speed beyond that of walking pace.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: caerau on May 24, 2019, 07:39:24 am
It stops the ground turning into a muddy morass when it's wet, though I suspect it's more intended for drivers' convenience in ensuring they don't get stuck.



When I was at school, I'm pretty sure they'd have made us play rugby on it if we'd had some.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 24, 2019, 07:57:11 am
... or just allowing parking on grass
Something I first noticed way back in the 90s was in some estates, all the grass is actually concrete. That is, it's grass but it's growing through a concrete grid. Presumably to stop it getting churned up by car wheels, but it also makes it very difficult to walk on.

I think that's called Grasscrete. I suppose it's more robust than ordinary turf. I think it's also used on camping sites, which is a pain if you're using tent pegs.
I didn't know the name but google shows that's what it is. It would be a pain in the arse, literally, along with all other body parts, to camp on, never mind tent pegs.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 24, 2019, 07:59:53 am
They do. Though you wouldn't know from the way most people drive. For some reason even basic courtesy evaporates once you move at a speed beyond that of walking pace.
Rule 170, at least in my copy.
Quote
Take extra care at junctions. You should watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way.
Weak rule even if it were acknowledged.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Jurek on May 24, 2019, 08:47:05 am
... or just allowing parking on grass
Something I first noticed way back in the 90s was in some estates, all the grass is actually concrete. That is, it's grass but it's growing through a concrete grid. Presumably to stop it getting churned up by car wheels, but it also makes it very difficult to walk on.

I think that's called Grasscrete. I suppose it's more robust than ordinary turf. I think it's also used on camping sites, which is a pain if you're using tent pegs.

It works quite well on the Saxon Shore Way between Beltinge and Reculver in Kent - a popular walking (and cycling) route which, in wet weather, would become a marsh.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: hatler on May 24, 2019, 09:04:32 am
They do. Though you wouldn't know from the way most people drive. For some reason even basic courtesy evaporates once you move at a speed beyond that of walking pace.
Rule 170, at least in my copy.
Quote
Take extra care at junctions. You should watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way.
Weak rule even if it were acknowledged.
London cabbies almost universally ignore this one and typically issue a pre-emptive parp parp before turning into a side road where there is a pedestrian already crossing.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: caerau on May 24, 2019, 09:50:05 am
They do. Though you wouldn't know from the way most people drive. For some reason even basic courtesy evaporates once you move at a speed beyond that of walking pace.
Rule 170, at least in my copy.
Quote
Take extra care at junctions. You should watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way.
Weak rule even if it were acknowledged.


True enough - I think you do need to be considerate and careful as a pedestrian also - there are scenarios were a militant and/or inconsiderate pedestrian does not even consider what is going on on the main road and condemns the polite motorist, allowing them to cross, to be rammed from behind my a motorist of the dickhead variety.

Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: ian on June 04, 2019, 02:22:57 pm
Glanced out the window to see the cycle police handing out a ticket to an errant Santander bike rider. I presume for riding on the pavement. While I don't have a lot of sympathy for that, the pavement is, after all, right next to the superhighway that runs up Blackfriars Road.

But right behind them a van, parked completely on the pavement outside the building opposite.
Title: Re: Pavement parking
Post by: Regulator on June 05, 2019, 09:38:56 am
Glanced out the window to see the cycle police handing out a ticket to an errant Santander bike rider. I presume for riding on the pavement. While I don't have a lot of sympathy for that, the pavement is, after all, right next to the superhighway that runs up Blackfriars Road.

But right behind them a van, parked completely on the pavement outside the building opposite.

Yebbut... everyone knows that motor vehicles magically elevate themselves on to pavements without any intervention from the meatsack behind the wheel... innit.