Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => The Sporting Life => Topic started by: De Sisti on May 23, 2019, 07:12:28 pm

Title: England women's football team standard
Post by: De Sisti on May 23, 2019, 07:12:28 pm
The England women's football team is due to take part in the World Cup in France this year.
I wonder if they are good enough to beat a decent boys under-16 team (from, say, a Saturday,
or Sunday league)?
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: mcshroom on May 23, 2019, 07:19:48 pm
Yes, easily.

More importantly, why do you even need to wonder that? They are one of the best teams in the world at their sport.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: rafletcher on May 23, 2019, 07:36:42 pm
The England women's football team is due to take part in the World Cup in France this year.
I wonder if they are good enough to beat a decent boys under-16 team (from, say, a Saturday,
or Sunday league)?

What an idiotic post  ::-)
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Kim on May 23, 2019, 07:37:37 pm
More importantly, why do you even need to wonder that? They are one of the best teams in the world at their sport.

Presumably as a measure of the obscurity of women's football, given that a lack of women competing in some sports can lead to hilariously low standards (DAHIKT).

But ...it's sportsball.  Hardly obscure!
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: FifeingEejit on May 23, 2019, 07:46:21 pm
Went to some of the matches at Hampden during the 2012 Olympics.
The US and French teams played some of the best football I've seen.
North Korea were bad but I've seen worse in the SPFL so...

Apparently the Scottish team is considerably better than their male counterparts.
But TBH all they need to do is win their first match of the world cup, nothing else matters...
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Jurek on May 23, 2019, 07:46:33 pm
Yes, easily.

More importantly, why do you even need to wonder that? They are one of the best teams in the world at their sport.
This.
If memory serves, England men's came 4th in the last world championship.
England women's came 2nd.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Exit Stage Left on May 23, 2019, 07:55:33 pm
Easier to answer in Women's cricket. England played the RAF men once. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ21w_jGI78

Women have played in the various Lancashire Leagues, which are a decent standard and mixed, while in the national team women's team. Kate Cross was one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Cross
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: farfetched on May 23, 2019, 08:25:47 pm
Well it's not uncommon for ladies to play u15/u16 boys and they often lose.
The USA lost to Dallas u15 last year so I guess the answer is they would struggle.
Despite the diving and play acting it's still a very physical sport, more so than ever IMHO

Not sure why you want to know though...  :(
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Jaded on May 23, 2019, 09:02:34 pm
England Women won the Cricket World Cup.

Something the men haven’t done yet.

The Final was a great match, although it went a bit flat for a while when they had to go off to prepare the tea for themselves.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: DuncanM on May 23, 2019, 09:40:14 pm
Just watch the game - they are really good players. The only way that lower standard (ie Saturday league) male teams could compete if by kicking them off the park and making it all about physicality.
I don't understand the point of the question though - it becomes a different sport when played by people with different attributes. It can actually be a better game to watch - there's a bit more space and time and good players can make good use of that.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Jaded on May 23, 2019, 11:13:52 pm
Also the keepers are smaller in the goals. (The goals in the men’s game haven’t kept up with the changes in the physiology of the players)
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Exit Stage Left on May 24, 2019, 01:45:54 am
If you look at the biographies of sporting folk, you'll often find that the whole family are professionally involved. They might be players, physios, managers or administrators. Just look at the Nevilles.

It's a family business, and they'll fill any available niches. Sibling rivalry is the root of a lot of sport, at some point one sibling outstrips another.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: De Sisti on May 24, 2019, 07:52:36 am
What an idiotic post  ::-)
What a pathetic, insulting respsonse.  :sick: 
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 24, 2019, 09:19:11 am
Also the keepers are smaller in the goals. (The goals in the men’s game haven’t kept up with the changes in the physiology of the players)
Interesting point. It's a well known problem in basketball, but that's a sport which inevitably selects for height. I hadn't considered it applying to football. Presumably also hockey, handball, netball, also tennis, erm, probably anything played on a pitch?
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: FifeingEejit on May 24, 2019, 10:02:03 am
Also the keepers are smaller in the goals. (The goals in the men’s game haven’t kept up with the changes in the physiology of the players)
Interesting point. It's a well known problem in basketball, but that's a sport which inevitably selects for height. I hadn't considered it applying to football. Presumably also hockey, handball, netball, also tennis, erm, probably anything played on a pitch?

The concept of the taller the better is being challenged in Basketball
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Jaded on May 24, 2019, 10:39:11 am
Also the keepers are smaller in the goals. (The goals in the men’s game haven’t kept up with the changes in the physiology of the players)
Interesting point. It's a well known problem in basketball, but that's a sport which inevitably selects for height. I hadn't considered it applying to football. Presumably also hockey, handball, netball, also tennis, erm, probably anything played on a pitch?

It may just be a perception, but I think I see more goals where the keeper can’t reach the shot than in men’s football.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Basil on May 24, 2019, 12:07:58 pm
I used to wonder how the England men's footie team would get on in the English premier league.  Obviously a theoretical question as sometimes the same player would appear for both sides.
I reckon they'd have trouble finishing in the top six.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: rafletcher on May 24, 2019, 08:57:24 pm
What an idiotic post  ::-)
What a pathetic, insulting respsonse.  :sick:
Your original question was insulting to women footballers. You’ll be the first person on this forum I’ve put on ignore.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: PaulF on May 24, 2019, 10:43:01 pm
I used to wonder how the England men's footie team would get on in the English premier league.  Obviously a theoretical question as sometimes the same player would appear for both sides.
I reckon they'd have trouble finishing in the top six.

I’ve always thought that the top club side, in any sport, would beat the respective national team simply because they play and train together week in week out. The Saracens/Leinster match the other weekend was a perfect example of this; a better game than most of the internationals. 
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: De Sisti on May 25, 2019, 10:09:41 am
https://www.google.com/search?q=could+a+women%27s+international+football+team+beat+an+boys+under-16+team%3F&oq=could+a+women%27s+international+football+team+beat+an+boys+under-16+team%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57.38930j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=could+a+women%27s+international+football+team+beat+an+boys+under-16+team%3F&oq=could+a+women%27s+international+football+team+beat+an+boys+under-16+team%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57.38930j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Jaded on May 25, 2019, 10:16:19 am
https://www.google.com/search?q=could+a+women%27s+international+football+team+beat+an+boys+under-16+team%3F&oq=could+a+women%27s+international+football+team+beat+an+boys+under-16+team%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57.38930j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=could+a+women%27s+international+football+team+beat+an+boys+under-16+team%3F&oq=could+a+women%27s+international+football+team+beat+an+boys+under-16+team%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57.38930j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

A quote from the first article returned:

"The only thing that needs reporting here is that some young hopeful footballers were able to meet and 'jam' with some very famous other footballers. If you find the alleged score-line funny, try learning the facts, step into the 21st century and just plain grow up."
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: pcolbeck on June 04, 2019, 02:45:25 pm
I really don't see why there has to be women's football. It's not a contact sport and doesn't rely on absolute strength. It's not like say weight lifting or running where the top athletes are complete physical outliers in the general population. It's a game of skill where you have to have good general fitness as well. Should be a mixed sport. Anything that relies on strength or pushing the body to its limits should be segregated but anything thats skill and general fitness should be mixed.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: DuncanM on June 04, 2019, 03:16:53 pm
I really don't see why there has to be women's football. It's not a contact sport and doesn't rely on absolute strength. It's not like say weight lifting or running where the top athletes are complete physical outliers in the general population. It's a game of skill where you have to have good general fitness as well. Should be a mixed sport. Anything that relies on strength or pushing the body to its limits should be segregated but anything thats skill and general fitness should be mixed.
Seriously?
Football is absolutely a physical sport, with a certain level of contact. It requires some combination of speed, power, and aerobic fitness (varying by position). Aside from the distance they run (at the top flight some players routinely run > 11km a game), every challenge for a ball requires physical power and strength. And especially when the ball is in the air - to be effective as a CB in England you need to be about 6ft2 and be able to jump >30 inches straight up (yes there are exceptions who make up the difference with leaping ability, or who just struggle in the air, but the people who are top of the aerial duel charts are this size or bigger). Hell, look at the Champions League semi final - Ajax were technically superior but couldn't handle Fernando Llorente. He picked on Daley Blind mercilessly, and Spurs imposed themselves on the game in a way that they couldn't prior to his introduction.

It's hard to find a full breakdown of the running, but this shows the distances covered by the top guys: https://www.90min.com/posts/6299626-the-10-players-who-have-covered-the-most-distance-during-the-2018-19-premier-league-season. Bear in mind a lot of that is at high speed as well. If speed wasn't important then players wouldn't be finished by the time they are 35 (if they are lucky). Just watch some games and you can see the differences in the physical ability of the players. Especially if you watch FA Cup games - the lower league teams are usually knackered by about 70 minutes because the top players are just fitter.

Even at a low level you see this.  I could compete at a certain level, then I tore ligaments in my knee. I couldn't run until a certain time after the surgery - I worked hard on my skills (and I still have most of them 15 years on), but I lost a yard of pace and a certain amount of aerobic fitness and I couldn't get back to the level I was at before the injury. All about physicality. Believe it or not, the fitness issue wasn't so much of a problem in American football, and I could disguise the lack of pace with technique, so I was able to compete in that sport for quite a few years after the injury!

In many ways, womens football can be more entertaining because there's more space and that allows the better players the opportunity to play a bit more, but it's still a physical game, just a different one.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Mr Larrington on June 05, 2019, 10:20:17 am
The Army Apprentices' College (as was) foopball team used sometimes to play against lower-echelon Foopball League opposition.  The squaddies were noticeably fitter than the foopballers according to Lt. Col. Larrington (retd.)’s chum Brigadier W.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: DuncanM on June 05, 2019, 10:51:57 am
Modern footballers are a lot fitter than they were in the olden days. You don't see many Jan Molby shaped professional footballers any more.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: caerau on June 05, 2019, 11:44:31 am
A mate of mine commented recently that why would he want to watch wimmin's footie - the standard was not great.


I pointed out that he's had no problem watching Crystal Palace ALL his life, so since when did the quality concern him  :-D
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on June 06, 2019, 10:05:05 am
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jun/05/toni-duggan-equality-footballl-england-barcelona-womens-world-cup
Passion in Spain but not in England.

(and yes that url really does say "footballll")
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: DuncanM on June 06, 2019, 12:56:01 pm
She's right about the crowds at womens games in England - if they are large they are made up of a lot of kids.
One possible reason why they might be larger in Spain is that they aren't just football clubs - they have all sorts of other sports under the same banner (eg basketball). As a result, fans get used to supporting their club in many different endeavours, and bring that passion with them to the womens game. It's only recently that the big mens clubs in England have had womens teams at all (with the honourable exception of Arsenal, who have had one for ages). I know people who go to womens football and who go to mens football, but I don't know anyone who goes to both.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on June 06, 2019, 01:54:21 pm
So Spanish fans will see women's football as a new sport for their club, alongside (men's) football, basketball, volleyball, whatever? In that case it might be seen as new rather than alternative, a new sport in its own right rather than a version of the established men's game. I suppose.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: DuncanM on June 06, 2019, 03:42:07 pm
So Spanish fans will see women's football as a new sport for their club, alongside (men's) football, basketball, volleyball, whatever? In that case it might be seen as new rather than alternative, a new sport in its own right rather than a version of the established men's game. I suppose.
It's just a theory. ;)
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: fd3 on June 25, 2019, 01:33:28 pm
For the sports that I follow I wouldn't care RE gender of players - but then I follow a small amount of sport on Free-to-view-TV.  I could see that if someone has reached capacity viewing on (say) Football, they might not be interested in moar (women's) football.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Peter on July 01, 2019, 10:22:37 am
Don't the professionals play on the same full-size pitches as men?  If so, you would expect their game to be slower and with more space.  If you compare women's athletic records to men's, the women's records are roughly ten percent slower/shorter than the men's.  That's 10 metres in a 100 metre race or, possibly an easier example, Paula Radcliffe's superb World marathon record would see her finish THREE MILES behind the top man.  None of this diminishes the women's prowess in their sports.  I like to watch women's football BECAUSE it is slower.  I enjoy it for its own sake.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: LEE on July 10, 2019, 05:12:37 pm
To the OP.
The England women's elite would most like beat most U16 "Sunday League" male teams.
They would however be severely drubbed by an U16 Elite boys team.
Under 16 "boys" are knocking on the door of the Premier League.  Wayne Rooney was scoring goals against Arsenal at 16.

Football is extremely physical.  Pace counts for a lot.  Physical strength counts for a lot.

The women's team draws on a small base, the "boys" team draws on a huge base.  The 11 elite "boys" would probably all be quicker, taller, stronger and (yes) more naturally talented*

*A large participant base will produce more highly talented people.

But the women would beat a Sunday League team of U16 boys, possibly a fair few over 16 male teams.

I like watching the women's game precisely because they are slower and smaller.  It results in a much more open, flowing game.

The men's game is so breathtakingly fast that nobody has any time to do anything, Lionel Messi aside.

Also I do not think de Sisti's question is insulting if it was genuinely about assessing the level of the Women's game.

What amazes me is how good the English women are considering I have never seen any women playing the game on my local parks in 57 years.

Am I the only person who has never seen this?

In America the parks are full of women's games, have been for 26 years I'm aware of.  No surprise they are the best.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Wowbagger on July 10, 2019, 05:30:24 pm
I may have posted this elsewhere in these pages.

Some time between 1981 and 1986 I was, for my sins, in charge of a junior school football team. It had always been made up entirely of boys. However, there was one particular top year girl who was big, strong and skilled. I selected her for the school team and she played on several occasions. Her name was Simone and that was usefully androgynous when the kids shouted out to each other. I heard the opposing parents asking one another "Is that a girl?" and so far as I am aware they never received a conclusive answer to their question.

The head teacher was a terribly fossilised old git, even by 1980s standards. He brought the matter up with me and I defended my decision strongly. I don't think he had any interest whatever in sport or football, he was just sexist or "traditionalist" as he would have put it. However, he knew me well enough that if he decided to overrule me in this matter, he would have had to find some other mug to run his school football team.

Maybe people who know better than I do (and that is pretty much anyone) can tell me what the FA rules were in the 1980s regarding girls and football. I seem to remember, since leaving full-time teaching, of incidents which, to my mind, have been blown up out of all proportion because somewhere in the rules of football it states that girls were not allowed to play and someone dared contravene that rule. It never came to that in the case I mention above. So far as I know, no-one complained and the issue was never raised.

Edit: I've found this https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/03/playing-with-the-boys-womens-football-fa which indicates that even as recenty as 2016 there were major issues with girls and boys playing together.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Jurek on July 10, 2019, 06:04:18 pm
From my friend Julie, who coaches Whitstable Town Girls team, in the 80s the FA didn't not allow girls to play footy. 
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Basil on July 10, 2019, 06:58:31 pm
I have very limited experience with football.  The  only teams I've ever been to see are Hartlepool Utd and Llandysul.  From what I saw of the England women they'd have had no trouble against either of them.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 10, 2019, 07:01:39 pm
But are school games under FA jurisdiction?
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: Wowbagger on July 10, 2019, 10:00:08 pm
But are school games under FA jurisdiction?

I understood that they are. Schools' football leagues, ultimately, subscribe to the FA.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: DuncanM on July 11, 2019, 09:42:29 am
What amazes me is how good the English women are considering I have never seen any women playing the game on my local parks in 57 years.

Am I the only person who has never seen this?

In America the parks are full of women's games, have been for 26 years I'm aware of.  No surprise they are the best.

There are a couple of girls teams affiliated to the local club. They are always adverting for players, so I think that recruitment is more of a problem than with the boys. This is a recent innovation though - when I was looking a few years ago there were no girls teams.

In the US, the huge driver was a rule called Title IX. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX
Essentially, if an educational institution spends money on the boys, it has to spend equal amount on the girls. This meant a massive increase in athletic scholarships for women (so as to not impact on the giant cash cow that is college football), and a significant number of these were in soccer. This cascaded down the pyramid as clubs sprang up to fill the need for scholarship level soccer players, and so now in the US soccer is played by many more girls than boys.
Title: Re: England women's football team standard
Post by: fd3 on July 13, 2019, 11:32:09 am
In the US, the huge driver was a rule called Title IX. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX
Essentially, if an educational institution spends money on the boys, it has to spend equal amount on the girls.
In case anyone missed the context, in the US you have the top tier league (akin to the Premiere league) and below that you have college level.  So that ruling would be akin to saying that in the UK all clubs outside of the premiere league would have to spend as much on women's teams as on men's teams.