Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: pumpkin on May 26, 2019, 10:25:55 pm

Title: All Points North
Post by: pumpkin on May 26, 2019, 10:25:55 pm
Anybody follow this? I noticed the first one back did it in 45 hours which given the terrain and controls is some going. A fair few have pulled out and no pairs were back which in theory I would have thought they would be equal or faster (if all goes well)
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: JonBuoy on May 27, 2019, 08:23:30 am
I am sure that it is fun to plan and to ride but I found it very difficult to follow.  The different routes chosen means that you cannot see who is winning until they are into the home straight and even then one of the un-tracked riders might be somewhere in the mix.  The stats on the tracking page were also confused and of no value.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: quixoticgeek on May 27, 2019, 09:15:33 am
I am sure that it is fun to plan and to ride but I found it very difficult to follow.  The different routes chosen means that you cannot see who is winning until they are into the home straight and even then one of the un-tracked riders might be somewhere in the mix.  The stats on the tracking page were also confused and of no value.

Agreed. I tried to follow it, but couldn't work out who was doing what, so closed the tab and concentrated on watching the HT550 instead. Shame really.

J
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Sea of vapours on May 27, 2019, 09:41:57 am
Ignoring the fact that not everyone is tracked, I thought following it was pretty good.

Moving the time slider at the bottom of the tracker page works really well for seeing where people are going and have been, especially if you switch off all but a few dots when doing it. You can combine that with checking who has checked in at each control very easily. Overall, working out where people might have planned to go seems to me to make it really very entertaining to watch. i may be biased by living in the centre of the route of course.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Ajax Bay on May 27, 2019, 10:05:47 pm
Ignoring the fact that not everyone is tracked, I thought following it was pretty good.

Moving the time slider at the bottom of the tracker page works really well for seeing where people are going and have been, especially if you switch off all but a few dots when doing it. You can combine that with checking who has checked in at each control very easily. Overall, working out where people might have planned to go seems to me to make it really very entertaining to watch. i may be biased by living in the centre of the route of course.
http://www.allpointsnorth.cc/control-locations/
"Moving the time slider at the bottom of the tracker page works really well for seeing where people are going and have been."

This ^^^. Gratified to see that the [edited after SoV post] clockwise guy just made it ahead of the 2 [edited] anti-clockwise guys. I don't know whether he was riding faster (ie average speed) though.  When I planned this (for fun, not to ride) - a bike-orienteering 'score' event really - I preferred the anti-clockwise option as, when tired on the final pull home, it's a straight SW run from Flamborough Head back to Sheffield, as opposed to needing to zig-zag collecting Brimham Rocks and Howarth on the way SE from Slaidburn. There were also considerations about which sections were best done (or avoided) during darkness.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Sea of vapours on May 27, 2019, 10:36:32 pm
Do your clocks go in a different direction to mine, I wonder? Those comments seem consistently backwards to me ... Could be me though.

I was hoping he'd make it too,  not least since I liked his approach of getting the fabulously inconvenient control at Brimham Rocks out of the way first, then Howarth, then the natural circuit that the remainder provided. And, as you imply, the homeward leg is much better psychologically down the east coast: more direct and less lumpy.

Selecting small subsets of people and playing their progress through along differing routes is rather good for clearly seeing how route choice affects speed. Several people demonstrated that one bit of routing I often choose is slower than the obvious alternative. Nice to confirm that, but I'll stick with my shorter, prettier, hillier option :-)
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Jack_P on May 29, 2019, 10:02:36 pm
I did this, it was great to see the variation in routes taken, spiced it up seeing fellow riders going all directions throughout the event.
 It really was a weekend of two halves. Those that went North (cw) first had clear Sky's and calm conditions on Dun Fell etc, while those, me included, who hit the East coast first had to fight mad windy conditions in driving rain with no vision on Dun Fell. It was brutal at times. That was a killer amount of climbing, much more than I did on the Mille Pennines last year, but immensely enjoyable.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: pumpkin on May 30, 2019, 02:10:14 pm
That wind on Dun Fell!!! was tan Hill the same?. There was a high attrition rate - was that the weather or the topography or a combination?
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Ivan on May 30, 2019, 04:27:08 pm
I found Tan Hill harder on Sat evening than Great Dun Fell on Sun morning, as for TH I was riding up hill across the moors into the prevailing wind, whereas for GDF I had the wind mostly behind me for the climb at least.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on May 30, 2019, 04:34:59 pm
Weather looked horrific at points. I think it's likely I'd have thrown in the towel. Chapeau to all the riders and supporters
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Ivan on May 30, 2019, 04:39:17 pm
I knew I was unlikely to get round at 13.3km/h min. speed so my tactic of splitting it into two DIYs paid off - rode the first 700km to Arnside in 53 hours and the final 150km on Monday at BP pace for a total of 12.5AAA points. I left around a gap in between to give some flexibility in sleeping, but of course the M6 travelodge was fully booked leaving me on the station platform at Arnside - who would have thought the first train would arrive at 5am on a bank holiday?
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Exit Stage Left on June 07, 2019, 11:22:04 pm
Just back from walking some of the Pennine Way, Heather's doing it all, and I'm doing the interesting bits. We stayed at Langdon Beck, a control on LEL 1997, 2001 and 2005. Visited Dufton, then walked over Great Dun Fell, a control on All Points North, on the way to Alston Youth Hostel, a control on LEL 2005 and 2017. There's a yellow bike with a mannikin in an LEL 2017 shirt over the door at Alston.

I popped into Spar in Alston, and there was cyclist outside drinking coffee, with a tin of coke by his side, and eating a packet of Skittles, sheltering from the rain. Turns out it was Jordan Matthews, Rider 12, and he filled me in on 'All Points North', and his forthcoming TCR. He outlined his aspirations to do LEL and PBP. He was on the way from Chester-Le-Street to Keswick, and I pointed out that Pendle 600 riders would be passing there tomorrow night. All a bit surreal.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on November 12, 2019, 10:35:21 pm
Thread so dead, writhing in pain. Arise, arise, to post again!

APN 2020 registrations are open. Sign up, ye scurvy dogs! http://www.allpointsnorth.cc/enter-apn20/
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: eddum on November 13, 2019, 08:41:09 am
Ah now, I was looking for something stupid to do next year.... with a bit more of a self sufficient route planning bias  O:-)
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Ajax Bay on November 13, 2019, 02:17:53 pm
When @David Lane said he was doing this earlier this year, I sketched out a route, for fun, on RwGPS. I then received a message saying, in effect, please make your route 'private' on RwGPS 'cos riders (ie entrants) have been asked to keep their route planning to themselves.
From: All Points North <ride@allpointsnorth.cc>
Subject: Re: All Points North Route
"An assumption was made on our part that you are taking part in the event, so I must apologise for that.

"If you’re not actually taking part in the event then there’s very little that we can do about it really, apart from ask, in the sprit of the event, that you consider making the route private or alternatively change the title of your ride so that it is a little less explicit.

"The rules of All Points North are created by concensus and anything that is challenged we throw back to the rider group and ask for their opinion. The consensus on this particular aspect was that route planning should be included in that ‘unsupported’ category and kept private, therefore is it is very much a joint decision between us as the organisers and the participants themselves."

I amended my publicly available route to make it non-optimal. I have the Bryan Chapman the week before so best of luck to those who enter. The controls for 2020 are different so I'll enjoy designing the optimum route for 2020. Edit to add: 858km + 8897m is my shot. [The PM button is ^ way.)
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: marcusjb on November 13, 2019, 02:38:37 pm
As I've just relocated back up here and the start is only a few km away down in Sheffield, this seems like the ideal opportunity to explore some of the areas across Northern England that I don't know as well as I'd like.  Mille Pennines and Pendle have given me a decent overview of many areas, but I want to see more.

As such, my entry is in, so we'll see what happens from here.

I'm also considering the Pure Peak Grit as well/instead of - if I don't ride the event, the route goes past my house, so will be out cheerleading and providing snacks and water for riders etc.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on November 13, 2019, 02:44:05 pm
In the application form I read out loud the question about 'what do you do when it starts gusting at 50mph, you're on exposed moorland, and 15km from the nearest village'. My dad responded 'drink alcohol'.... :s
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 13, 2019, 02:45:19 pm
In the application form I read out loud the question about 'what do you do when it starts gusting at 50mph, you're on exposed moorland, and 15km from the nearest village'. My dad responded 'drink alcohol'.... :s

"Question your life choices, fall onto the aero bars, and just keep fucking pedalling..."

J
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Ivan on November 13, 2019, 04:08:29 pm
Much as I would love to do this again, have decided not to apply this year to give someone else a shot at taking part, as it looks like it'll be heavily over-subscribed. Will probably still fire up my custom shortest trip router at some point and see what that chucks out...
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on November 13, 2019, 05:23:42 pm
In the application form I read out loud the question about 'what do you do when it starts gusting at 50mph, you're on exposed moorland, and 15km from the nearest village'. My dad responded 'drink alcohol'.... :s

"Question your life choices, fall onto the aero bars, and just keep fucking pedalling..."

J
Ah, the question specified that 'you no longer feel it is safe', so obviously we would all stop in these circumstances.....  ;)
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 13, 2019, 06:07:44 pm
Ah, the question specified that 'you no longer feel it is safe', so obviously we would all stop in these circumstances.....  ;)

Only if stopping is safer than going on... It's a tough one depending on where you are.

J
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Karla on November 13, 2019, 07:34:41 pm
I've entered.  I'm pining for northern hills already so I'll be in desperate need of a fix by next May.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: longflaps on November 26, 2019, 11:38:21 am
I've also entered, inspired by watching Katie Butler's two episode videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FFQtMKeJ7o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FFQtMKeJ7o) of her attempt last year. It would be great to get a place, but it sounds like lots of people have entered so may have a better chance on the lottery
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Jack_P on November 27, 2019, 08:40:38 pm
400 entrants for the 80 places mentioned😜 good luck
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: eddum on November 28, 2019, 11:02:00 am
Sadly a date clash for me on this... ::-)
Looks to be turning into an ultra running year anyways hey ho.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: marcusjb on November 28, 2019, 02:21:50 pm
400 entrants for the 80 places mentioned😜 good luck

I thought it might by worse odds.

We shall see - I'll be thrilled to get a place!
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on November 28, 2019, 02:26:46 pm
I put down 'super randonneur 2018' as the main item of my 'work experience' on my application, which I thought would be enough to be fairly sure of a place, but now I don't know what to think!

It will be interesting to see how many SRs get a place.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Revolution9 on November 28, 2019, 04:07:41 pm
I never bothered to enter in the end. 

It would have been the main event of my cycling year, but with such a high chance of not getting a place, I couldn't take that risk, and I've entered something else instead.

Good to see it continuing to be a successful event.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Lee K on November 28, 2019, 07:05:25 pm
400 entrants for the 80 places mentioned😜 good luck

I’ve made my application but with those odds I’m not sure it’ll go any further than that. We shall see though!
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: pumpkin on November 29, 2019, 10:55:51 am
wonder if they will rule out those who DNF'd last year. With a 5 x subscription I'm guessing they can but then would you let the winner back or let the road decide?. Really since there are no prizes you could just ride it anyway as a DIY.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on November 29, 2019, 12:46:06 pm
I don't think they will - especially as many of the DNFers last year dropped out on safety grounds. They can't be seen to be punishing people for risk assessing their ride.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on December 02, 2019, 04:33:59 pm
Allegedly places will be announced "this afternoon."

It's now 1633..... :)
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: thatotherjamie on December 02, 2019, 04:37:47 pm
My rejection email has just arrived!
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on December 02, 2019, 04:51:56 pm
Same.

Thank goodness for that ;D
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: marcusjb on December 02, 2019, 04:53:18 pm
Me too!

I have a place for Pure Peak Grit a couple of weeks later which is even more of a ride around my new 'hood, so that's a good goal for the summer.  Both may have been a big ask.

I will offer any help I can down in Sheffield if needed.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: mattc on December 02, 2019, 08:02:26 pm

I have a place for Pure Peak Grit ...

I believe PPG and APN require helmets. And neither are Audaxes. Just saying ...
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: pumpkin on December 03, 2019, 11:17:23 am
I don't think they will - especially as many of the DNFers last year dropped out on safety grounds. They can't be seen to be punishing people for risk assessing their ride.

Surely you would think of that beforehand given the terrain. It's up a big hill, will it be wind/rain/ice or all 3? Anyone who has been up Tan Hill can see 3 seasons in about 10km.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: thisisgrace on December 03, 2019, 02:32:19 pm
I'm in for APN in 2020 with my sidekick Lorna. Looking forward to seeing the full line up if/when it's published. Very excited and already started plotting my route ⛰⛰⛰
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: quixoticgeek on December 03, 2019, 11:40:50 pm
I'm in for APN in 2020 with my sidekick Lorna. Looking forward to seeing the full line up if/when it's published. Very excited and already started plotting my route ⛰⛰⛰

"Out the start, and Up!"

J
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: FifeingEejit on December 04, 2019, 01:17:06 am
I don't think they will - especially as many of the DNFers last year dropped out on safety grounds. They can't be seen to be punishing people for risk assessing their ride.

Surely you would think of that beforehand given the terrain. It's up a big hill, will it be wind/rain/ice or all 3? Anyone who has been up Tan Hill can see 3 seasons in about 10km.
You need to think about what you wrote there...

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: pumpkin on December 04, 2019, 03:03:50 pm
I'm in for APN in 2020 with my sidekick Lorna. Looking forward to seeing the full line up if/when it's published. Very excited and already started plotting my route ⛰⛰⛰

prob the only time apart from the start when you will see the full line up. Be interested to see how people do this - Go generally clockwise or anti clockwise? Main roads through the borders or a more convoluted route.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Ajax Bay on December 05, 2019, 10:39:35 am
Sheffield, Ripon, Arncliffe, Keld, Kirkstone Pass, Silloth, Berwick, Rosedale Abbey (NYM), Castle Howard, and back to Sheffield.
#848km + 8724m
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: thatotherjamie on December 05, 2019, 11:00:55 am
You've missed Blanchland.

My route would've been the same though I couldn't get it below 1000k & 10000m.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Ajax Bay on December 05, 2019, 11:41:14 am
You've missed Blanchland.
My route would've been the same though I couldn't get it below 1000k & 10000m.
Thank you, Jamie. I've added in Blanchland on the way south from Berwick - much nicer ride/route - and now have 876.8km +9,781m (RwGPS).
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: thisisgrace on December 05, 2019, 02:17:24 pm
You've missed Blanchland.
My route would've been the same though I couldn't get it below 1000k & 10000m.
Thank you, Jamie. I've added in Blanchland on the way south from Berwick - much nicer ride/route - and now have 876.8km +9,781m (RwGPS).

To be a pedant, I wonder if this counts as outside support. Sure you'd have noticed eventually but I think discussion of your route is frowned upon by some other race's groups.

Edit: I'm not bothered either way but it's interesting to define what unsupported actually means. What unsupported means to one person might mean supported to another.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: quixoticgeek on December 06, 2019, 12:36:13 am

To be a pedant, I wonder if this counts as outside support. Sure you'd have noticed eventually but I think discussion of your route is frowned upon by some other race's groups.

Edit: I'm not bothered either way but it's interesting to define what unsupported actually means. What unsupported means to one person might mean supported to another.

If only there was some kind of central site for all things ultra racing, where an article discussing the various takes on what counts as support could be published... ;p

J
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: thisisgrace on December 06, 2019, 09:54:35 am

To be a pedant, I wonder if this counts as outside support. Sure you'd have noticed eventually but I think discussion of your route is frowned upon by some other race's groups.

Edit: I'm not bothered either way but it's interesting to define what unsupported actually means. What unsupported means to one person might mean supported to another.

If only there was some kind of central site for all things ultra racing, where an article discussing the various takes on what counts as support could be published... ;p

J

Haha it's on my radar, don't worry!
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on December 06, 2019, 10:19:59 am
You've missed Blanchland.
My route would've been the same though I couldn't get it below 1000k & 10000m.
Thank you, Jamie. I've added in Blanchland on the way south from Berwick - much nicer ride/route - and now have 876.8km +9,781m (RwGPS).

To be a pedant, I wonder if this counts as outside support. Sure you'd have noticed eventually but I think discussion of your route is frowned upon by some other race's groups.

AFAIK outsider support is fine if it's support everyone else is entitled to.

So if you got a secret gratis consultation with some route boffin then that might be questionable, but since you're asking on a public forum everyone can use then I think that's OK.

According to the letter of the rules, if someone opened a LLC route making consultancy firm and charged a nominal 50p rate for a consultation, this would amount to a 'commercially available service' and then would be 100% kosher... In these circumstances we just have to make a judgement on whether the activity is within the spirit of the event.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Ajax Bay on December 06, 2019, 11:50:36 am
You've missed Blanchland.
My route would've been the same though I couldn't get it below 1000k & 10000m.
Thank you, Jamie. I've added in Blanchland on the way south from Berwick - much nicer ride/route - and now have 876.8km +9,781m (RwGPS).
To be a pedant, I wonder if this counts as outside support. Sure you'd have noticed eventually but I think discussion of your route is frowned upon by some other race's groups.
Edit: I'm not bothered either way but it's interesting to define what unsupported actually means. What unsupported means to one person might mean supported to another.
Grace - I wish you well on APN. I got grumbled at by drafting a route last year for fun - I wasn't 'racing'. So this year I'm not sharing 'my' route (and have not called the route 'All Points North' and have not started at the Race HQ). I think 900km and 10,000m of climb (as per @theotherjamie) is a good benchmark for riders to aim at. I think that no reasonable rider/planner would judge offering a quantative benchmark for distance and climb as crossing the inarticulate 'outside support' threshold.
APN website (my emboldening): "Please keep your planned routes private prior to the event." "The ride is completely unsupported, so once the riders are out on the road they’re looking after themselves completely."
In the spirit of 'unsupported' I rather like the idea of this style of event where participants are given some of the controls but not all, told that the distance will be (say) less than 1000km, and given the full set of controls at Sheffield at the start time. Full disclosure: long orienteering background.
For example: Sheffield, Silloth, Berwick, Sheffield.
My opinion is that last year's controls offered several route choice options but this year there's a binary choice: riders will either go clockwise, or anti-clockwise, or, I suppose, ride a longer route with more climb, for extra fun.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: quixoticgeek on December 06, 2019, 11:56:16 am
AFAIK outsider support is fine if it's support everyone else is entitled to.

It depends. At the route planning stage, asking locals for advice is accepted. James sort advice from local riders for his route on one of the TCR rides.

Asking other riders in the same event tho goes against self sufficiency.

Publicly requesting it on a forum or social media I would suggest is against the spirit of the rules, if not also the letter.

There's also the question of receiving unsolicited advice. What happens if someone moans on social media "Ugh, can't find a nice route between a and b, that doesn't involve this section of horrible road"

To which someone replies unsolicited "try going via x, and then take the y road up to z".

It's also like if you are in the middle of a race, have a mechanical and tweet out "bugger, need to find a bike shop. This is all I need" and someone you don't know replies "There's a bike shop in the next village at $place"

Are we supposed to ignore this? What if we'd found that bike shop already and were heading there when we saw the message. Or if we didn't see the message but were going there? Where is the line drawn?

It's the same with how trail magic is accepted, as long as you haven't summoned it. If some dot watcher wants to stand by the side of the road and give out water and mars bars to a few riders going past, that is generally accepted as long as you don't know them, and as long as you haven't summoned it.

Tho if you listen to the panel at Look Mum No Hands on the wheel suckers podcast, there is some discussion that those at the front tend to be a lot stricter about this than those at the back.

Quote
So if you got a secret gratis consultation with some route boffin then that might be questionable, but since you're asking on a public forum everyone can use then I think that's OK.

According to the letter of the rules, if someone opened a LLC route making consultancy firm and charged a nominal 50p rate for a consultation, this would amount to a 'commercially available service' and then would be 100% kosher... In these circumstances we just have to make a judgement on whether the activity is within the spirit of the event.

There's companies specialising in training for ultra races, how long until we get route consultancy companies too...

My opinion is that last year's controls offered several route choice options but this year there's a binary choice: riders will either go clockwise, or anti-clockwise, or, I suppose, ride a longer route with more climb, for extra fun.

I wonder if this reflects general consensus from the dotwatching community that the event was hard to follow in terms of who was in the lead and who wasn't due to no easy to see route.

J
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Ajax Bay on December 06, 2019, 12:09:54 pm

I have a place for Pure Peak Grit ...

I believe PPG and APN require helmets. And neither are Audaxes. Just saying ...
Can find no mention of the 'h' word in the APN Rulz.
http://www.allpointsnorth.cc/event-rules/
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Deano on December 06, 2019, 12:31:21 pm
No, no helmets required - I checked when it looked as though I"d be riding.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on December 06, 2019, 01:07:32 pm
Unfortunately I don't think those links are exhaustive - when I applied I am pretty sure I ticked a box accepting that I was going to wear a hi visibility fluoro vest (supplied with the entry pass....) and a helmet at all times. I hope I'm wrong but that's what I recall. Real shame.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: pumpkin on December 08, 2019, 09:48:24 pm
For those who didn't get in, what is to stop you going to Sheffield, sit round the corner from the start and then set off and do the ride. There are no prizes/medals, no infrastructure to speak of , just a set of controls that arent manned so you aren't stealing anyones  glory/supplies, Its 'just a 1000km audax with a nice website. Do it and fail, that would have happened. Do it and succeed you get the same prize as anyone else.
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: Karla on December 08, 2019, 10:00:13 pm
Because that is called "being a dicκ".
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: bludger on December 08, 2019, 10:04:08 pm
Well it isn't an audax because there is no route!
Title: Re: All Points North
Post by: quixoticgeek on December 08, 2019, 10:04:58 pm
Well it isn't an audax because there is no route!

Or maximum speed.

J