Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Planet X Paul on June 04, 2019, 03:19:21 pm

Title: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Planet X Paul on June 04, 2019, 03:19:21 pm
Having read Phil W's account of the Windsor Chester Windsor (which I also did), he mentioned 'Howard was battered and bruised, his face was was swollen and cut, he had properly crashed when he fell asleep on the bike, broken his helmet in four places, bloodied knees, his ribs hurt, ripped his jacket'.  This is a serious concern for me on long audax rides as I can say that it has nearly happened to me on several occasions.  I was OK on WCW as I had 2hr 45min sleep at the appropriate control and I didn't suffer with the dozies at all.

However, the London Wales London (400) was a different matter.  After the last manned control and predawn I suffered terribly and there were certainly 4 or 5 times when I suddenly thought 'I was asleep then', but somehow regained control before the inevitable crash.  Even though it was freezing cold (which you would think would keep you awake), listening to music and standing on the pedals, nothing would stop me drifting off. 

I know people say, 'just have a 15 minute power nap in a ditch', but when it is near zero degrees and everywhere is wet at the same temperature, it is not practical to simply lie down in a field and get some sleep.  So, what are other's recommendations for combating the dozies?  I have tried caffeine tablets and they do not seem to have any effect on me.

Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Deano on June 04, 2019, 03:21:29 pm
I've walked for a couple of miles before when it was too cold to sleep.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Kim on June 04, 2019, 03:27:03 pm
Having fallen asleep on the bike a couple of times (one resulting in a crash) my technique for cycling when sleepy is now much the same as for driving when sleepy: I try not to put myself in that position in the first place, but if it happens, I stop and do something else for a bit.  It just strikes me as a particularly stupid way to acquire a cycling injury, for little benefit.  Racing and off-roading are fun, sleep-deprivation isn't.

I accept that's likely to be an unpopular opinion in these parts...
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: bludger on June 04, 2019, 03:27:38 pm
I had this in my first 400 which I managed to start with an enormous sleep deficit. I was at the point of emptying out a bin bag in a Belgian train station to use as an emergency bivvy so I could sleep for an hour. It was scary. I DEFINITELY fell asleep on the bike at least twice.

Somehow I managed to suffer through until the sun came up whereupon it became warm enough to find a picnic table to crash out at for 90 mins. After this I was fine, but that 0300-0830 patch, brrrrr I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

For my next ride of its kind I will have a bivvy in the saddlebag so that I can sleep.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: GPS on June 04, 2019, 03:27:43 pm
The following has helped me:
- sleeping as much as I can the week leading up to the ride (8 hours a night at least) to prevent the dozies
- no caffeine for 10 days beforehand (so when you do get some on the ride it makes a difference & you'll sleep better leading up to the ride too)
- chew gum
- power nap if poss
- walk (as Deano says) if it's too cold

It won't solve it completely - only proper sleep will do that - but it'll help.

Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Rod Marton on June 04, 2019, 03:45:21 pm
Agreed. There are times when it's so cold that sleeping isn't a good idea - and as I'm sure you know, thermal control is one of those things that goes towards the end of a long ride. The only solution is do to something that keeps you awake, walking makes sense, but my personal solution is to sing. Loudly. This isn't a solution which works when riding in company - with my singing I wouldn't be in company very long anyway - but if there was someone to talk to I'd be keeping myself awake talking to them.

This at least get you through to somewhere warmer, where you can get a proper sleep.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: bludger on June 04, 2019, 03:50:27 pm
I remember that I resorted to putting one haribo in my mouth at a time and trying to make it last as long as I could as a tactic to stave off on the bike slumbering. It did work but it is a last resort only!
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: madamemugwump on June 04, 2019, 03:55:11 pm
This will be my second 'don't do it then' kind of response. Second after the aforementioned dehydration/cycling in the heat. Coincidentally, I think I may have even had a conversation with PW about sleep deprivation (and its dangers) on a previous WCW. I've seen some riders on PBP in a pretty bad way with it and thought it foolishly dangerous. It's only a bike ride after all.

I reckon it's a balancing act, between sleep and speed. If you're slow and need sleep (like me) then you really do need to question whether a long brevet is something you really want to be doing. If you're quick enough and/or can get by on limited zeds then fine, start looking at time/sleep management etc. but otherwise...

FWIW, I'm just about OK on a 600 but I'm aware that I'm going into the danger zone on anything longer -  I probably won't be doing another 400+ brevet again, just not worth the risk. I'll still ride the distance but just not with the time constraints.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Kim on June 04, 2019, 03:58:05 pm
I remember that I resorted to putting one haribo in my mouth at a time and trying to make it last as long as I could as a tactic to stave off on the bike slumbering. It did work but it is a last resort only!

I find eating sugar works to keep me awake for a few minutes longer.  Good for getting to the next junction so you can leave the motorway safely, not so useful on a long bike ride.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Ian H on June 04, 2019, 04:00:31 pm
I'm lucky in that I get plenty of warning of impending sleepiness, culminating in micro-sleeps which are no more than a head-nod in duration.  The only problem then is if it's too cold or wet to find somewhere to sleep for 10 minutes.

A friend told me of his dream that he was travelling along a road with railings either side.  Then he woke up and found he was on his bike.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: psyclist on June 04, 2019, 04:03:50 pm
- no caffeine for 10 days beforehand (so when you do get some on the ride it makes a difference & you'll sleep better leading up to the ride too)

I first tried the no caffeine rule leading up to long rides last year. My intention was to improve the effect of caffeine on the ride, but I observed the much better sleep I was getting and didn't really need caffeine on the rides as a result.

I tend to stop caffeine 4 - 5 days before the ride.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Ben T on June 04, 2019, 04:56:45 pm
I sometimes semi-"sleep" standing up. All you need to do is stop by a gate, rest your head on your folded arms and close your eyes. I (probably) don't actually fully sleep, but it's enough of a mind rest to not feel the urgent need to sleep any more.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 04, 2019, 05:08:22 pm
I know people say, 'just have a 15 minute power nap in a ditch', but when it is near zero degrees and everywhere is wet at the same temperature, it is not practical to simply lie down in a field and get some sleep.  So, what are other's recommendations for combating the dozies?  I have tried caffeine tablets and they do not seem to have any effect on me.

What I discovered on the Auld Alliance as I was woken from a snooze in a bus shelter in the pissing rain, was that I was still warm after 5 minutes sleep which was enough to kick me on for the rest of the ride.
Kazoo reckons it was 4c, bus shelter was south facing, made of concrete and had a wooden bench on top of concrete.

I carry a bivvy bag and foil blankets; which if you get wrapped up in and into before you cool down too much should keep you warm enough for a snooze somewhere sheltered.
I didn't use them on the AA though I was just sat there with my autumn kit on.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Diesel on June 04, 2019, 05:37:08 pm
I'd agree with many of the things already stated - lay off caffeine in the run up, don't start with a sleep deficit, etc

One thing I'd add is to try and find some company. On a calendar event you are probably not far from someone else and the chatting may help you stay awake or alert or if you are falling asleep they may be good at ensuring you stop and stay safe (or I guess be around if you crash  :facepalm:)

I also find that the dozies are unpredictable. Some nights I can ride through and some I struggle. And it may not just be overnight. On the Beast from the East some years ago I had to stop about 7 in the morning and slept on the verge for a short while.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Kim on June 04, 2019, 05:41:21 pm
And it may not just be overnight. On the Beast from the East some years ago I had to stop about 7 in the morning and slept on the verge for a short while.

Absolutely.  While I tend to *feel* tired at 4am, the actual dozies tend to happen during my natural lulls around 10am and 5pm.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: iroiromono on June 04, 2019, 05:56:14 pm
For me the best cure to the Dozies where stopping isn't an option is to talk. If riding with someone else try to keep a conversation going, play a game of 20 questions for example.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Chris S on June 04, 2019, 06:42:43 pm
Sleep deprivation could well be one of the contributing factors toward my retirement from rides longer than 300km.

I famously turn into a pumpkin after 1am. We've had to walk the tandem for a few km at 2am, somewhere in Wales when I was too sleepy to be safe. Fboab has also had to try and keep me awake ("Oh look - a bird!") when we were on solos and I was falling asleep - on a fixed for god's sake, so I was still pedalling.

It's a stupid state to get into, and it's the potential to cause others to come to grief, or have to come to my rescue, that makes me think (this is MY opinion of course, other judgements are equally valid) it's actually a monumentally selfish thing to do; like riding in snowy or icy conditions without proper equipment, fully expecting others to put themselves at risk to rescue you, should you crash.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: phil w on June 04, 2019, 06:57:58 pm
If it's likely to be wet and / or maybe cold.

Take a large silver foil emergency blanket
Some gaffa or non rip sellotape. A few strands of bungy cord if tree bivvy looking likely.
Tea light candles
Matches or lighter

Find a suitable bus stop, shop entrance, dry stone wall, church lynch gate or porch or tree etc. You can affix the silver foil to make a fairly weather proof but not completely draft free shelter.  Get yourself inside your shelter. Light candles and place so no danger of being near silver foil. You will get warm and be able to sleep pretty quickly.  Make sure there's enough draft to prevent build up of fumes. Sitting up is warmer than lying down, if you have something to lean against.

If riding as a pair then bothy bags are perfect, if a little bulkier, (and much simpler to setup and get in) for anywhere.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Exit Stage Left on June 04, 2019, 07:08:08 pm
I suppose it's the kind of thing that drivers might discuss. At least lorry drivers have to use a tachograph. Although a GPS fulfils a similar service in recording activity. I have seen data from a GPS quoted in cases where cyclists have come to grief after losing control downhill.

https://www.velonews.com/2012/06/news/family-sues-strava-over-descending-death_224889
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: quixoticgeek on June 04, 2019, 07:56:50 pm
If it's likely to be wet and / or maybe cold.

Take a large silver foil emergency blanket
Some gaffa or non rip sellotape. A few strands of bungy cord if tree bivvy looking likely.
Tea light candles
Matches or lighter

Find a suitable bus stop, shop entrance, dry stone wall, church lynch gate or porch or tree etc. You can affix the silver foil to make a fairly weather proof but not completely draft free shelter.  Get yourself inside your shelter. Light candles and place so no danger of being near silver foil. You will get warm and be able to sleep pretty quickly.  Make sure there's enough draft to prevent build up of fumes. Sitting up is warmer than lying down, if you have something to lean against.

If riding as a pair then bothy bags are perfect, if a little bulkier, (and much simpler to setup and get in) for anywhere.

Sounds very similar to my Staying Alive Cold kit. I carry it in winter, just in case.

I carry a space blanket the rest of the year too (Thermartex blanket).

For the OP's question.

Never underestimate the power of a short power nap. On RatN, I had a major issue on the final day, struggling to stay awake. I found a cafe that was open (amazingly), and shut my eyes for about 10 minutes, I was woken by the waiter bringing my food, tho I had set an alarm. That kept me going for another 8ish hours of cycling, and I finally got to be about 15 hours later.

Even if you just wrap yourself in a space blanket and lean against a tree for ten mins, it can make all the difference. It helps tho to start looking for a spot to stop before you're at the falling off stage. Just remember the first law of bivviing. There's always a better place to bivvi just down the road, you'll only find this place after you've already stopped...

J
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on June 04, 2019, 09:47:38 pm
Not an easy one.  Abstinence from caffeine for one week before (which creates an opposite problem of dozies at work, but at least struggling to keep eyes awake in a meeting is less catastrophic than falling asleep on the bike), as mentioned by various above.  I try to avoid being on the road between 1am and 3am - although that can be difficult with rides that start in the evening like PBP (and the Auld Alliance).

Company is good, but talking is much better.  However, if I'm really tired I can struggle to follow a wheel.  I've also been known to sing, which can drive company away or at least make them rather disconcerted.  Then, if all else fails, I stop and put my head down.  I've never been able to sleep properly but 10 or 15 minutes with my eyes closed can usually get me going again.  I might have to repeat this once or twice if I have to ride right through the night like on a Cambrian Series. 

On the (fortunately rare occasions) I've had an overnight ride in the rain I've not suffered from the dozies.  I suspect that the extra concentration required to navigate wet/slippery roads and rain on the face helps to keep me awake.

Twice I've abandoned, where I've just not felt safe/right to continue.  Both times I was struggling in any case, the dozies were the last straw.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: SR Steve on June 04, 2019, 11:31:03 pm
I sometimes semi-"sleep" standing up. All you need to do is stop by a gate, rest your head on your folded arms and close your eyes. I (probably) don't actually fully sleep, but it's enough of a mind rest to not feel the urgent need to sleep any more.
This is exactly what I’ve done several times over the years when it’s not been possible to lie down to rest for whatever reason. Good thing is that there are plenty of gates around and it doesn’t matter how cold or wet it is, as you’re only stopping for a short while. It is often enough to help you momentarily switch off and reset your brain which can enable you continue safely a lot further. In the absence of gates I’ve also slept standing up, leaning on trees.
Always avoiding caffeine in normal life when not cycling through the night helps me too, as it then works when I need it. Just one coffee can keep me awake all night, but I always carry a few caffeine gels just in case. The sugar boost helps as much as the caffeine. Sleeping well between bike rides is also helped by avoiding caffeine and that in turn means you are better rested for your next bike ride.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Kim on June 04, 2019, 11:37:10 pm
Sleeping well before a big event, especially one with an audax o'clock start, is a skill I've yet to master.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Ben T on June 05, 2019, 09:13:42 am
Not an easy one.  Abstinence from caffeine for one week before (which creates an opposite problem of dozies at work, but at least struggling to keep eyes awake in a meeting is less catastrophic than falling asleep on the bike), as mentioned by various above.  I try to avoid being on the road between 1am and 3am - although that can be difficult with rides that start in the evening like PBP (and the Auld Alliance).

Company is good, but talking is much better.  However, if I'm really tired I can struggle to follow a wheel.  I've also been known to sing, which can drive company away

What can also work the brain a little harder is if you try singing 'I'm sorry I haven't a clue' style - i.e. one song to the tune of another ;D
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: markcjagar on June 05, 2019, 05:41:58 pm
On my last 400 I filled my bidon with a litre of something called Blue Bear I purchased at a petrol station. Every time I felt remotely sleepy I took a big glug. Doesn't taste great but boy does it keep you awake.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: toontra on June 05, 2019, 05:47:36 pm
On my last 400 I filled my bidon with a litre of something called Blue Bear I purchased at a petrol station. Every time I felt remotely sleepy I took a big glug. Doesn't taste great but boy does it keep you awake.

Likewise on my last 400. A litre of garage Tesco Blue Spark.  As a caffeine abstainer the stuff is like rocket fuel.  Nasty but effective.

On multi-day rides I try and ration the stuff so it will still have an impact, and avoid for a couple of hours before trying to sleep.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: grams on June 05, 2019, 06:19:13 pm
You can buy little cans of Starbucks Espresso that are somewhat more respectable version of the same thing.

I cocked up my BCM attempt by trying to wear contact lenses through the night and convincing myself I had serious dozies and needed to sleep every 5 minutes, when really I just had dry eyes. The feeling of your eyes closing involuntarily was indistinguishable.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: halhorner on June 05, 2019, 07:08:37 pm
On my last 400 I filled my bidon with a litre of something called Blue Bear I purchased at a petrol station. Every time I felt remotely sleepy I took a big glug. Doesn't taste great but boy does it keep you awake.
Are you sure it wasn't screenwash?
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: halhorner on June 05, 2019, 07:11:29 pm
On my last 400 I filled my bidon with a litre of something called Blue Bear I purchased at a petrol station. Every time I felt remotely sleepy I took a big glug. Doesn't taste great but boy does it keep you awake.
Are you sure it wasn't screenwash?
Oh I see what you did there  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: JennyB on June 05, 2019, 08:29:15 pm
I sometimes semi-"sleep" standing up. All you need to do is stop by a gate, rest your head on your folded arms and close your eyes. I (probably) don't actually fully sleep, but it's enough of a mind rest to not feel the urgent need to sleep any more.


Has anyone tried the method Samuel Beckett describes - resting astride the bike, feet on the ground, arms and head on the bars?
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: phil w on June 05, 2019, 08:52:01 pm
I sometimes semi-"sleep" standing up. All you need to do is stop by a gate, rest your head on your folded arms and close your eyes. I (probably) don't actually fully sleep, but it's enough of a mind rest to not feel the urgent need to sleep any more.


Has anyone tried the method Samuel Beckett describes - resting astride the bike, feet on the ground, arms and head on the bars?

See the end of https://hertsaudax.uk/the-call-of-the-wild-day-1/

It works ok as long as you don't really fall asleep. If you fall asleep your legs will buckle. See day 6 for when that happens.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Ben T on June 05, 2019, 09:18:12 pm
I sometimes semi-"sleep" standing up. All you need to do is stop by a gate, rest your head on your folded arms and close your eyes. I (probably) don't actually fully sleep, but it's enough of a mind rest to not feel the urgent need to sleep any more.


Has anyone tried the method Samuel Beckett describes - resting astride the bike, feet on the ground, arms and head on the bars?

I would have thought probably not quite as good as a gate as you have to support yourself laterally (side to side) with your feet as the bike doesn't do it for you whereas a gate sort of does. You also have to lean over more I guess?
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on June 05, 2019, 09:21:46 pm
On the flip side I tried Red Bull once.  I was really alert for an hour and then had the caffeine equivalent of a sugar crash.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: hellymedic on June 05, 2019, 09:43:01 pm
Wiki...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_drinks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_drinks)

I hadn't heard of most of these.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: bludger on June 05, 2019, 09:50:50 pm
How about some chili peppers? I was mooting this just now with some buds. Some hot fiery peppers as stimulants to keep you awake? 🤔
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 07:14:27 am
If sleeping is a concern, the idea is that you should build enough contingency to have a 5-6 hour sleep on a 600. If you don't, it's one of two reasons:
either you don't cycle fast enough, in which case you have to wonder whether BRM are for you and you'd be better off doing BR where you get a bit more time (on something like WCW you might get an extra couple of hours if not more as a BR) or, more likely, you spend too much time at controls.

At WCW some riders spent well in excess of an hour at a mid afternoon control, typically on their phone or generally "faffing" with their bag and clothes... multiply that for the number of controls, and you run out of contingency for the night.

Moral, plan your stops, 20-30 minutes should be plenty
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: GPS on June 06, 2019, 08:33:10 am
Yes - any time you're not moving, you should be sleeping, eating with a knife and fork or going to the lav !

The most efficient of us, might try and combine these perhaps ;-)
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: JennyB on June 06, 2019, 08:57:17 am
Yes - any time you're not moving, you should be sleeping, eating with a knife and fork or going to the lav !

The most efficient of us, might try and combine these perhaps ;-)


Eat on the lavvy, wake up with your face on the plate?
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: grams on June 06, 2019, 09:03:09 am
Excessive time at controls can be a sign something else is wrong - either your mind is no long on the ride or you're suffering physically one way or another. The fiddling with bag/phone/etc is just something to do with your hands.

I can't imagine many riders get anything like 5-6 hours sleep on a typical BRM 600.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 09:21:37 am
Excessive time at controls can be a sign something else is wrong - either your mind is no long on the ride or you're suffering physically one way or another. The fiddling with bag/phone/etc is just something to do with your hands.

I can't imagine many riders get anything like 5-6 hours sleep on a typical BRM 600.

A couple of models

Rider A moves at 25 km/h and spends 30 minutes at each of the 8 controls, it will take him/her 24 hours moving + 4 hours at controls, so in a BRM that's 12 hours to play with, obviously not 12 hours sleep, because he/she would probably be out of time at the following control, but still a lot of time.
Should the same rider spend 1 hours at each control, then it's "only" 8 hours to play with

Rider B moves at 20 km/h, using the same model, it's 30 hours on the road + 4 at controls, still a 6 hours contingency, which means possibly up to 4 hours sleep at the night contro, not bad.
With 1 hour at each control, then it's 38 hours, which means only 2 hours contingency, a lot less at the time of the night control, and basically zero time to sleep or he/she will be out of time at the following control.

If moving at less than 20km/h in a non AAA event, one should question whether BRM is suitable.

Ultimately, an Audax is a "race" against time, faffing with smart phones and taking 15 minutes from wanting to leave the control to actually leaving the control needs to be fixed
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: eddum on June 06, 2019, 10:25:13 am
Sleeping well before a big event, especially one with an audax o'clock start, is a skill I've yet to master.

As I've learnt for a variety of silly o'clock endurance event starts.. it's the night before the night before that really counts !
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: eddum on June 06, 2019, 10:32:23 am
On my last 400 I filled my bidon with a litre of something called Blue Bear I purchased at a petrol station. Every time I felt remotely sleepy I took a big glug. Doesn't taste great but boy does it keep you awake.

Likewise on my last 400. A litre of garage Tesco Blue Spark.  As a caffeine abstainer the stuff is like rocket fuel.  Nasty but effective.

On multi-day rides I try and ration the stuff so it will still have an impact, and avoid for a couple of hours before trying to sleep.

I picked up these from my regular outdoor shop to try on a (10pm start) 600 last year:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Caffeine-Bullet-Electrolyte-Chews-High-Intensity/dp/B07F14M8FH
They pretty much saved my ride on two occasions... early doors on the first night staring at the lights in a motorway underpass, had one and then just kept looking over shoulder for the sun to rise. Second night again before dawn having set out at 2am knowing I needed to be alert for the descent off shap.
I bought some more for steam express last weekend and made use of, also helps if you don't want a caffeinated gel, or to stop for coffee and they're soft, chewy and minty.. likely a change of flavour and texture from anything else :-)
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: grams on June 06, 2019, 10:48:34 am
My point is it's very hard for an outside observer to tell if someone is wasting time *because* they're faffing, or if they're "faffing" because their mind/body is not yet ready to get back on the bike for another 3 hour stint. There's no point in getting in and out of a control in 20 minutes if it means they'll be stopping a little up the road for whatever reason.

Rider B moves at 20 km/h, using the same model, it's 30 hours on the road + 4 at controls, still a 6 hours contingency, which means possibly up to 4 hours sleep at the night contro, not bad.
With 1 hour at each control, then it's 38 hours, which means only 2 hours contingency, a lot less at the time of the night control, and basically zero time to sleep or he/she will be out of time at the following control.

If this rider sleeps for four hours they'll have no contingency for the next day, which will inevitably be ridden slower and they don't know how their legs will feel, how the headwinds will be, what mechanicals/biomechanicals they'll face, etc. Not a good strategy.

Quote
If moving at less than 20km/h in a non AAA event, one should question whether BRM is suitable.

You've probably just excluded half the field!

My average on-the-road speed for this was 19 km/h and I finished comfortably on an hour-ish sleep.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: toontra on June 06, 2019, 10:54:42 am
I picked up these from my regular outdoor shop to try on a (10pm start) 600 last year:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Caffeine-Bullet-Electrolyte-Chews-High-Intensity/dp/B07F14M8FH

Interesting.  There's also this stuff (which saw a few of us through the latter stages of LEL 2013):

https://www.edcgear.co.uk/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=STAYALRTC (https://www.edcgear.co.uk/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=STAYALRTC)

Actually tastes quite nice.  Not sure of the military connection or the claim to "save lives"  ;D
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 11:25:31 am
I don't think it's right to take caffeine pills to finish an audax to be honest.
It doesn't strike me as much different from the early days of doping, when riders were taking amphetamines to cope with exhaustion. And I am not questioning the morality, of which I don't give a monkey, but rather the cost/benefit balance

If the demand is too much on the body, one should question whether they are doing the right thing. Long term, there is a price to pay in pushing your body beyond the limit

Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: toontra on June 06, 2019, 11:28:31 am
I don't think it's right to take caffeine pills to finish an audax to be honest.
It doesn't strike me as much different from the early days of doping, when riders were taking amphetamines to cope with exhaustion. And I am not questioning the morality, of which I don't give a monkey, but rather the cost/benefit balance

If the demand is too much on the body, one should question whether they are doing the right thing. Long term, there is a price to pay in pushing your body beyond the limit

Nothing whatever to do with "riding beyond my limit". I finished 18 hours inside the time limit for LEL 2013.  I just wanted to ride through some of the last night without putting myself or others at risk.

So you would ban coffee, tea, etc?  That's all we're talking about here.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: rob on June 06, 2019, 11:39:31 am
I don't think it's right to take caffeine pills to finish an audax to be honest.
It doesn't strike me as much different from the early days of doping, when riders were taking amphetamines to cope with exhaustion. And I am not questioning the morality, of which I don't give a monkey, but rather the cost/benefit balance

If the demand is too much on the body, one should question whether they are doing the right thing. Long term, there is a price to pay in pushing your body beyond the limit

There's a massive difference between taking speed and having some caffeine in whatever form.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Wycombewheeler on June 06, 2019, 11:49:15 am
I don't think it's right to take caffeine pills to finish an audax to be honest.
It doesn't strike me as much different from the early days of doping, when riders were taking amphetamines to cope with exhaustion. And I am not questioning the morality, of which I don't give a monkey, but rather the cost/benefit balance

If the demand is too much on the body, one should question whether they are doing the right thing. Long term, there is a price to pay in pushing your body beyond the limit
Better to use in the case of need rather than falling asleep though. But I wouldn't plan on using it to ride straight through without sleeping. Like I generally carry a survival blanket on long rides but dont plan on using it.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 11:55:26 am
As I said,

if your body is tired enough that you fall asleep while doing intense activity, probably you need to sleep rather than popping pills.
Obviously do what you like...



Related (to fatigue) and unrelated (it's not about sleep)... this doesn't explain how something like the year mileage record is even possible

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48527798
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: rob on June 06, 2019, 11:57:55 am
As I said,

if your body is tired enough that you fall asleep while doing intense activity, probably you need to sleep rather than popping pills.
Obviously do what you like...


I don't class Audax as intense activity.   Zone 1/Zone 2  at best.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: bludger on June 06, 2019, 12:03:01 pm
I would have no problems using pills for Audax. I'd draw the line at panzer chocolate but caffeine pills are very useful. I used to use them when I'd go rowing at 0600. Alarm goes off, take two, snooze for another 10 minutes and then leap out of bed. It's no different to drinking coffee.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 12:17:35 pm

I don't class Audax as intense activity.   Zone 1/Zone 2  at best.

Do you normally fall asleep when you are doing zone 2 activities?  ::-)
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 12:20:10 pm
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

I don't think the "extreme" label is one we want to wear
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: rob on June 06, 2019, 12:25:48 pm

I don't class Audax as intense activity.   Zone 1/Zone 2  at best.

Do you normally fall asleep when you are doing zone 2 activities?  ::-)

I've had the dozies during a 24hr time trial, so yes.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: rob on June 06, 2019, 12:30:58 pm
I used to always pack some pro-plus tablets in case of issues, but I've just realised I haven't carried them at all this year.   A couple of pro plus is still less caffeine than an espresso and I would always rather have the coffee.   It's just that sometimes you can't find a coffee when you really want one.

I've not been near to falling asleep on any audaxes this year but some of the benefit is down to improved pace, allowing me to grab some sleep during the event.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: eddum on June 06, 2019, 01:09:06 pm
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

I don't think the "extreme" label is one we want to wear

How about bold and daring ?  :)
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Karla on June 06, 2019, 01:14:45 pm
Caffeine is quite slow acting.  Some sugar is good to get you through the first few minutes until our kicks in. 

Crystal meth also helps.

Intense exercise can be good too.  I got the dozies riding into Brest on PBP but didn't want to nap so closer to a proper stop, so jumped off the front of my group and nailed it into the town to keep myself awake.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: bludger on June 06, 2019, 01:24:39 pm
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

The stigma around 'pills' is ridiculous. I can afford a pack of Tesco caffeine pills - they are cheap and easily stored. What is more expensive and time consuming is drinking coffee. There is no difference between caffeine in pill form and in roasted-bean-in-water form except the misplaced stigmatisation of pills. The way we shame people for using a pill product is absurd. It was particularly painful for me to have to convince a close relative that using the anti depressant pills his doctor prescribed him was OK, this whole stupid anti pill sentiment probably has origins in some ghastly tradition we are best rid of.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-people-mental-health-disorders-stop-taking-their-medications
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Wycombewheeler on June 06, 2019, 02:18:37 pm
Excessive time at controls can be a sign something else is wrong - either your mind is no long on the ride or you're suffering physically one way or another. The fiddling with bag/phone/etc is just something to do with your hands.

I can't imagine many riders get anything like 5-6 hours sleep on a typical BRM 600.

A couple of models

Rider A moves at 25 km/h and spends 30 minutes at each of the 8 controls, it will take him/her 24 hours moving + 4 hours at controls, so in a BRM that's 12 hours to play with, obviously not 12 hours sleep, because he/she would probably be out of time at the following control, but still a lot of time.
Should the same rider spend 1 hours at each control, then it's "only" 8 hours to play with

Rider B moves at 20 km/h, using the same model, it's 30 hours on the road + 4 at controls, still a 6 hours contingency, which means possibly up to 4 hours sleep at the night contro, not bad.
With 1 hour at each control, then it's 38 hours, which means only 2 hours contingency, a lot less at the time of the night control, and basically zero time to sleep or he/she will be out of time at the following control.

If moving at less than 20km/h in a non AAA event, one should question whether BRM is suitable.

Ultimately, an Audax is a "race" against time, faffing with smart phones and taking 15 minutes from wanting to leave the control to actually leaving the control needs to be fixed
expaning on the 25kmh model, assuming sleeping at 350km then it takes 14 hours riding to get there, + 2 hours at the 4 controls along the way, so 16 hours, starting at 6 that means arrival at 10pm. the 400km control will be open until 9am so a prudent rider would want to leave by 6, giving an hour to eat etc and a generous 7 hours of sleep.

reducing moving speed to 22.2kmh increases travelling time to 18 hours to reach the 400km mark, 3 hours for the controls allows 6 hours sleep, although 5 hours to allow contingency when heading for the first control on day 2 is probably wiser. Things get easier if you reach 400km before stopping, but then its getting a bit late to be stopping possibly 3am, OK with a sleep control but much harder if booking in somewhere.

Yes its possible to push on with less sleep and finish earlier, but its not a race and no one cares weather you finish 5 minutes before the deadline or 5 hours. So why not enjoy the ride as much as possible by not being sleep deprived.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: hellymedic on June 06, 2019, 02:38:10 pm
Yes - any time you're not moving, you should be sleeping, eating with a knife and fork or going to the lav !

The most efficient of us, might try and combine these perhaps ;-)

Restocking supplies of food and drink, as well as adjusting clothing and fettling mechanicals are best NOT done on the move IMHO!

I'm afraid these thing take TIME but should be done efficiently.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 02:45:48 pm

Restocking supplies of food and drink, as well as adjusting clothing and fettling mechanicals are best NOT done on the move IMHO!

I'm afraid these thing take TIME but should be done efficiently.

I tend to do long events with a friend, we are well matched in terms of moving speed and needs. However, he tends to spend 5 minutes faffing with things in the seat pack, whilst I am ready to go.
Sometimes it's just the order one does things or how things are packed... it's pointless to have a spare inner tube ready available and and the battery charger hidden at the bottom... you might need the former on rare occasions, when you will waste time anyway, but you will need the latter more than once in a 600.

5 minutes at each control is almost an hour of just faffing... and then of course there are smart phones... I wonder how much time people waste at controls checking their phone with respect to 20-30 years ago when these things didn't exist
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Kim on June 06, 2019, 02:48:39 pm
Restocking supplies of food and drink, as well as adjusting clothing and fettling mechanicals are best NOT done on the move IMHO!

I'm afraid these thing take TIME but should be done efficiently.

I generally do this stuff in parallel with digesting things, regulating my body temperature and resting my knees.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on June 06, 2019, 02:55:41 pm
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

The stigma around 'pills' is ridiculous. I can afford a pack of Tesco caffeine pills - they are cheap and easily stored. What is more expensive and time consuming is drinking coffee. There is no difference between caffeine in pill form and in roasted-bean-in-water form except the misplaced stigmatisation of pills. The way we shame people for using a pill product is absurd. It was particularly painful for me to have to convince a close relative that using the anti depressant pills his doctor prescribed him was OK, this whole stupid anti pill sentiment probably has origins in some ghastly tradition we are best rid of.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-people-mental-health-disorders-stop-taking-their-medications
I don't think it's pills the stigma is being attached to, whether caffeine, sugar or amphetamine. It's the forcing yourself to ride when very sleepy.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 03:04:27 pm
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

The stigma around 'pills' is ridiculous. I can afford a pack of Tesco caffeine pills - they are cheap and easily stored. What is more expensive and time consuming is drinking coffee. There is no difference between caffeine in pill form and in roasted-bean-in-water form except the misplaced stigmatisation of pills. The way we shame people for using a pill product is absurd. It was particularly painful for me to have to convince a close relative that using the anti depressant pills his doctor prescribed him was OK, this whole stupid anti pill sentiment probably has origins in some ghastly tradition we are best rid of.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-people-mental-health-disorders-stop-taking-their-medications
I don't think it's pills the stigma is being attached to, whether caffeine, sugar or amphetamine. It's the forcing yourself to ride when very sleepy.

That...

If I was a driver, I'd be terrified at the idea of having someone falling off his bike and ending up under my wheels as a result of lack of sleep.
If you are too tired to stay awake, you should sleep. If sleeping means you won't make the validation time, then you shouldn't be there.
I don't think there is anything to brag about in sleep deprivation and personally I don't think it portraits a positive image of Audax.

There you go, I've said it... :-)
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Kim on June 06, 2019, 03:06:49 pm
I don't think it's pills the stigma is being attached to, whether caffeine, sugar or amphetamine. It's the forcing yourself to ride when very sleepy.

Pills are certainly stigmatised by society, "maybe you'd be healthier if you didn't take so much medication" is a real thing people say.  But I agree that's not really the context here.

I'd say it was a combination of the expectation that it's reasonable to push your body to the point where it needs chemical assistance (in whatever form) to function, and stigmatisation of people who then do so.  No, that doesn't really make sense, but that's audax for you.

Yes, there are probably some people who look down on energy gels, caffeine pills and screenwash, while considering the repeated consumption of extra-strong WTFucinos and McNastyBurgers to be normal and ordinary.  But that's just random snobbery, like looking down on people for riding carbon-fibre bikes and navigating by GPS.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: bludger on June 06, 2019, 03:26:13 pm
I use all kinds of chemical assistance in audax. I use synthetic hydrocarbons to lubricate my bike and make up my technical fabrics. I smear chemicals all over myself to prevent sunburn and skin cancer. God help me I even cushion my groin with synthetic foam. I am also on prescribed medication for a long term problem. Using stuff like caffeine to be more alert and increase the time I can spend in the saddle is a complete non issue to me.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: GPS on June 06, 2019, 03:45:03 pm

I don't think there is anything to brag about in sleep deprivation and personally I don't think it portraits a positive image of Audax.


Don't think I noticed anyone bragging about sleep deprivation ... perhaps I nodded off for a bit  ;)
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on June 06, 2019, 03:50:11 pm
I'd say it was a combination of the expectation that it's reasonable to push your body to the point where it needs chemical assistance (in whatever form) to function, and stigmatisation of people who then do so.  No, that doesn't really make sense, but that's audax for you.
That's not (only) audax, that's society at large. Think of all the other contexts in which people take amphetamines, energy drinks, special pills which allegedly make your brain function better, etc: everything from all-night dancing to exams.

As a tangent, I know a bloke who, since the age of 3 (and he's two months younger than me... ) has been on medication to control epilepsy. I can't remember the name of it but a side effect is it makes him really drowsy in the mornings. At 10am he is still only semi-awake, seems drugged, woozy. He drinks a couple or more coffees and starts to function normally. But he says that every now and again he forgets to take his medication and wakes up feeling sharp; and doesn't like it. Presumably simply because he isn't used to the unemediated sensations, though it's not just sensations, what he says he really doesn't like is the feeling his brain is sharper.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 04:47:00 pm
I use all kinds of chemical assistance in audax. I use synthetic hydrocarbons to lubricate my bike and make up my technical fabrics. I smear chemicals all over myself to prevent sunburn and skin cancer. God help me I even cushion my groin with synthetic foam. I am also on prescribed medication for a long term problem. Using stuff like caffeine to be more alert and increase the time I can spend in the saddle is a complete non issue to me.

If you think that you can replace sleep with caffeine and be safe, then good for you. It's a gamble I am not prepared to take.

The good thing about cycling, especially at night outside of cities, as opposed to driving, is that if you take risks, generally you are the one paying the price, as opposed to passing the risk to others :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Wycombewheeler on June 06, 2019, 06:44:50 pm
If I was a driver, I'd be terrified at the idea of having someone falling off his bike and ending up under my wheels as a result of lack of sleep.
If you are too tired to stay awake, you should sleep. If sleeping means you won't make the validation time, then you shouldn't be there.
I don't think there is anything to brag about in sleep deprivation and personally I don't think it portraits a positive image of Audax.

There you go, I've said it... :-)

overtaking too close?
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: bludger on June 06, 2019, 06:49:43 pm
I use all kinds of chemical assistance in audax. I use synthetic hydrocarbons to lubricate my bike and make up my technical fabrics. I smear chemicals all over myself to prevent sunburn and skin cancer. God help me I even cushion my groin with synthetic foam. I am also on prescribed medication for a long term problem. Using stuff like caffeine to be more alert and increase the time I can spend in the saddle is a complete non issue to me.

If you think that you can replace sleep with caffeine and be safe, then good for you. It's a gamble I am not prepared to take.

The good thing about cycling, especially at night outside of cities, as opposed to driving, is that if you take risks, generally you are the one paying the price, as opposed to passing the risk to others :thumbsup:

We are all taking risks. If you don't want to take risks stay at home and do zwift. We are adults who can judge whether caffeine products are enough to make the balance of risk suitable for ourselves.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 06, 2019, 06:53:43 pm

We are all taking risks. If you don't want to take risks stay at home and do zwift.

There is no need, I am one of those who can get 8 hours of sleep...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 06, 2019, 10:40:18 pm
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

The stigma around 'pills' is ridiculous. I can afford a pack of Tesco caffeine pills - they are cheap and easily stored. What is more expensive and time consuming is drinking coffee. There is no difference between caffeine in pill form and in roasted-bean-in-water form except the misplaced stigmatisation of pills.

Or for that matter in fizzy juice form, which includes Diet Coke at 42mg per 330ml can and Coke at 32mg per 330ml can.
And Tea though that varies by steeping time.
And chocolate too
And....

You really have to deliberately buy caffeine free products to avoid it fully.


The idea of needing 8 hours sleep is hokum too, invented at some point following the electric light, natural sleep patterns are much more complex and very personal too.
Something that was very obvious when Iroromono and I rode the "Kingdom Come" and "Snow Roads" perms this winter.
I cope fine with the long periods of darkness (and in the case of Kingdom Come until I sat down on the train); though give me a chance to sleep as on "Over the Hill and Back" and I have to get a time that matches by sleep cycle and rarely sleep "just anywhere".
Iroromono needed a snooze on the Snow Roads at 1am and similar on our abandoned attempt at the "Central Scotland 300" as that's his sleep pattern.

Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: phil w on June 06, 2019, 10:49:39 pm
Dozies for me tends to be a certain time of night. It is usually somewhere between 3am and 5am.  A natural dip driven by body clock. So aim to be able to be off the bike at that time and if not poss I just watch for the signs then take a break finding somewhere to shut my eyes. Once daylight arrives my body clock resets and I'm good to go.  Only used caffeine on a ride once and that was three cans of coke to get me to a sleep control on the Wild Atlantic Way Audax.  Normally I just go with the body and sleep as necessary.

On the PBP night start I didn't get the dozies on the first night last time. I find riding through the night when fresh often means I don't get the dozies. On the third night I got the dozies mid control, so pulled off the road and got my head down behind some trees away from bike lights. That did the trick and I was fine when I woke and set off again. But at the next control I opted for another longer sleep.

Later on PBP I did watch a rider in front of me fall asleep and veer across the road straight into a deep ditch. I had to climb down into the ditch to get him out and some other riders stopped to help get his bike out. Luckily a soft ditch. The rider abandoned at the next control.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: rob on June 07, 2019, 03:18:06 pm
How have people found coming off caffeine ?   Is cold turkey the best way ?

I've dropped down to one double espresso, post commute in and then a can of diet coke lunchtime.

I'm wondering whether to withdraw one of these next week as a steady bleed out.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Rod Marton on June 07, 2019, 04:34:10 pm
How have people found coming off caffeine ?   Is cold turkey the best way ?

I've dropped down to one double espresso, post commute in and then a can of diet coke lunchtime.

I'm wondering whether to withdraw one of these next week as a steady bleed out.

I went cold turkey once in preparation for an event: it wasn't fun. And I don't think it benefitted me very much either: I didn't feel caffeine giving me an especial buzz whilst I was taking part.

I've found the best strategy is to ensure that you are well-rested before the event and not in sleep debt. The one event I did in which I wasn't was the last PBP, and I ended up with the dozies at all sorts of strange times and taking short naps throughout the event. Although caffeine can stave off the dozies for a while, but sooner or later you are going to need some sleep. It's better to do what your body is telling you to do.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: JonB on June 07, 2019, 04:43:44 pm
How have people found coming off caffeine ?   Is cold turkey the best way ?

I've dropped down to one double espresso, post commute in and then a can of diet coke lunchtime.

I'm wondering whether to withdraw one of these next week as a steady bleed out.

I tried it once but to little effect. The thing that struck me was that it was hard to get a decent cup of coffee when I most needed it during the night on a 600 or longer rides. I haven't bothered since but maybe I should give it another go, I have found the final 20km-30km of the return from Kings on the BCM particularly difficult on the last two outings especially the long downhill section. 
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: toontra on June 07, 2019, 04:57:56 pm
How have people found coming off caffeine ?   Is cold turkey the best way ?

I've dropped down to one double espresso, post commute in and then a can of diet coke lunchtime.

I'm wondering whether to withdraw one of these next week as a steady bleed out.

I went cold turkey about 12 years ago and wouldn't recommend it.  I had all sorts of unpleasant symptoms including a spitting migraine (which I'd never had before or had since) for 2 days and both stomach and (strangely) thigh cramps. I didn't touch caffeine for years after to make the suffering worthwhile!
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: S2L on June 07, 2019, 05:04:32 pm
I tried a week without coffee with no side effects... that proves that I am not an addict like you bunch of dopers...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: phil w on June 07, 2019, 05:09:19 pm
I'm a green tea drinker and don't really have much caffeine to withdraw from.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: hellymedic on June 07, 2019, 06:48:55 pm
There's  around 30mg caffeine in a cup of green tea.

That's less than a cup of coffee but enough to keep my partner awake...
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: andyp on June 07, 2019, 09:21:58 pm
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.
what, and posts about people falling off their bikes when they've fallen asleep with no following discussion of strategies to avoid it is? I think being open, honest and helpful is more important than being an advert.

I don't think the "extreme" label is one we want to wear
I think it's safe to say that that ship has long sailed: audax, especially 300km+ falls well within the definition of extreme for almost everyone except us.

Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Frank9755 on June 07, 2019, 11:51:13 pm
I stopped having caffeine (to the extent that I could avoid it) about five years ago.  I did it to help me sleep better in normal life, not to do with cycling.  I don't remember stopping being much of an issue. But now that I have far less of it I am much more conscious of its addictive nature.  If I have chocolate then I crave more in a way I don't recall doing when I freely consumed caffeine.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: mattc on June 08, 2019, 08:04:51 am
I think it's safe to say that that ship has long sailed: audax, especially 300km+ falls well within the definition of extreme for almost everyone except us.
As someone on Audax Ecosse said:
"It's the most badass thing you can do that noone has ever heard of."
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: vorsprung on June 08, 2019, 09:33:29 am
Never mind caffeine tablets, what about Phenylpiracetam, vitamin B5 and alpha gcp?
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: phil w on June 08, 2019, 10:38:50 am
There's  around 30mg caffeine in a cup of green tea.

That's less than a cup of coffee but enough to keep my partner awake...

Well well well.  I don't do tricks with caffeine on Audax, preferring to have a nap,  so it's kind of mute. But interesting to know.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: phil w on June 08, 2019, 10:44:45 am
I wonder whether having some blue LEDs turned on, at night, on the handlebars would be an effective remedy against the dozies?

"Researchers at Boston’s Brigham and Women’s Hospital and Philadelphia’s Thomas Jefferson University investigated the effects on alertness and cognitive performance from prolonged daytime exposure to blue light. They also compared the daytime effects of blue light exposure to the effects of evening exposure to the same degree of light. Their findings confirm that blue light at night stimulates alertness and diminishes feelings of drowsiness, interfering with sleep."

Quote from Psychology Today



Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Kim on June 08, 2019, 01:10:26 pm
I wonder whether having some blue LEDs turned on, at night, on the handlebars would be an effective remedy against the dozies?

In that you'll wake up when you ride into something because you can't see?
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Planet X Paul on June 08, 2019, 01:34:39 pm
How have people found coming off caffeine ?   Is cold turkey the best way ?

I've dropped down to one double espresso, post commute in and then a can of diet coke lunchtime.

I'm wondering whether to withdraw one of these next week as a steady bleed out.

I stopped having 'normal' tea and coffee about 3 weeks before WCW as an experiment.  The one thing I did notice was that I had a headache all day following the day I started, but otherwise did not notice any effects.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on June 08, 2019, 08:40:16 pm
How have people found coming off caffeine ?   Is cold turkey the best way ?

I've dropped down to one double espresso, post commute in and then a can of diet coke lunchtime.

I'm wondering whether to withdraw one of these next week as a steady bleed out.

Cold turkey for me is hard, but I'd rather do it than abandon an Audax because I can't keep my eyes open.  I have tried cutting down progressively over a couple of weeks, sometimes that gives less suffering that going cold turkey, sometimes not.  Probably depends on other factors such as work stress, travel, home, family, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: rob on June 08, 2019, 08:53:30 pm
Only one single espresso today.

I do feel really sluggish but I suspect this is down to the large amount of miles in the last 6 weeks.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: veloboy on June 08, 2019, 10:44:10 pm
I am not sure going 'cold turkey' works for me. There has got to be some balance in life between pleasure, determination and outcome. We all suffer from the 'dozies' from time to time (which could be any number of factors, really). Personal experience agrees with the above posts - best  outcome is to start without sleep dept - - trouble with that, is it can be difficult to really know your own circumstances.

Apart from that, I find chewing gum helps and recently found on the Brimstone that 'Japanese rice crackers' found at one of the controls (Beaminster Coop) did a good job of being me awake.

Caffiene?? - Well, obviously we would all like to see one of those Vespa tri-scooter-van Barristers on the side of every lane:

(https://media.fundedbyme.com/cache/aa/12/aa12588fbd3a4a391f6d7575c9da8450.jpg)
 
However, short of that non-reality on the road, I have tried caffeinated chewing gum:

https://www.blockheadenergy.com/energy-gum-peppermint (https://www.blockheadenergy.com/energy-gum-peppermint)

50mg caffeine per gum (they say about one single espresso). I find 2-3 takes the edge off the night an gets me through. And the argument foes that most of the caffeine is absorbed through the gums, so no upset stomach.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: Ben T on June 08, 2019, 11:13:09 pm
I once tried giving up caffeine in preparation for an audax but soon came to the conclusion it wasn't worth it. About 5 minutes after the first missed coffee  ;D
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: yanto on June 09, 2019, 07:00:51 am
I've been caffeine free for nearly 2 years now, I felt urgh for a few weeks, maybe because i take my coffee strong with 3 heaped teaspoons per mug!

When I do have a strong (with caffeine) coffee it certainly has an effect.
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: mattc on June 09, 2019, 04:06:46 pm
How have people found coming off caffeine ?   Is cold turkey the best way ?

I've dropped down to one double espresso, post commute in and then a can of diet coke lunchtime.

I'm wondering whether to withdraw one of these next week as a steady bleed out.

I stopped having 'normal' tea and coffee about 3 weeks before WCW as an experiment.  The one thing I did notice was that I had a headache all day following the day I started, but otherwise did not notice any effects.
I've only done cold turkey once - I thinkI had a couple of days of headaches (I was forced to by medical circs)
Title: Re: Coping with the Dozies
Post by: vorsprung on June 10, 2019, 03:14:29 am

I've only done cold turkey once...

(https://www.financeandfat.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/low-calorie-subway-sandwich.jpg)