Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => PBP 2019 => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on August 18, 2019, 06:14:18 pm

Title: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 18, 2019, 06:14:18 pm


For those of us following along from home, is there a list anywhere of where all the controls are, and most importantly, the distances?

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: slugbait on August 18, 2019, 07:27:17 pm
The tracker is here: https://track.rtrt.me/e/PBP-2019#/tracker. It includes distances, controls etc.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 18, 2019, 08:31:49 pm

Is the tracker working? None of the riders I've added to it are showing as having passed the first CP. Which appears to be at about 115km. Given they have been on the road for 5+ hours, I'd have expected them to be well passed there...

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Von Broad on August 18, 2019, 09:06:42 pm

Is the tracker working? None of the riders I've added to it are showing as having passed the first CP. Which appears to be at about 115km. Given they have been on the road for 5+ hours, I'd have expected them to be well passed there...

J

The first recordable control that the tracker will log is Villaines at [roughly] 214km. The Mayor of Mortagne will tell you that passing through Mortagne at 117km on the outbound journey is only a feed/rest/drink stop, and on the inbound it registers as a proper control. So for any riders you're following, Villaines will be the first control that will show up on the tracker. It will be a pretty fast 217km though.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 18, 2019, 09:14:02 pm

One of the riders I'm following has a tracker, and he passed through CP1 after 1 control. They've been on the road for 6 hours already, but not showing as passed CP1 on the official tracker...

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Von Broad on August 18, 2019, 09:23:19 pm

One of the riders I'm following has a tracker, and he passed through CP1 after 1 control. They've been on the road for 6 hours already, but not showing as passed CP1 on the official tracker...

The official PBP tracker page will not be giving any information on any riders before Villaines at 217km.

Here's a a tweet from a rider showing the brevet card.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECRX_4kUIAI_j8G?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

If your rider has passed through Villaines at 217km already then yes, the tracker [or the web site] is not working.
But I'd say it might be a little premature to assume that's the case.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Von Broad on August 18, 2019, 10:20:01 pm
Tracker's working fine.
All the quick souls are pouring through Villaines now.
Zigzag's just flown through in 6.30hrs!!!
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 18, 2019, 10:38:09 pm

Darren Franks and Jasmijn Muller have passed CP1 in 06:37:42 and 07:34:40 respectively.

Looks like it's working.

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Zed43 on August 19, 2019, 06:24:21 am
Wow! That took me 9h15m and only because I could catch a few trains. So far no queues at the controls though I guess I'm ahead of the bulge at the moment (did start at 1730)

At the moment shivering in the restaurant in Fougeres, time to move on!
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: T42 on August 19, 2019, 09:13:55 am
The tracker is here: https://track.rtrt.me/e/PBP-2019#/tracker. It includes distances, controls etc.

It's a right shit map they've got - no road numbers and precious few town names of interest.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 19, 2019, 09:26:11 am

Nothing showing on the hashtag #pbpsecret or #pbp2019secret on twitter.

Either the tweeting bulk have yet to reach a secret control, or people are being quiet about it.

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: lou boutin on August 19, 2019, 09:48:42 am
Hiya,   who is riding from the YACF community?

Thanks Lou.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 19, 2019, 09:51:59 am

This thread is a good overview. Not totally complete, but it has a lot of them.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=112609.0

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: lou boutin on August 19, 2019, 09:59:42 am
Thanks
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Martin on August 19, 2019, 12:48:34 pm
assuming it's the same route as usual; about 80-90k between controls but times between each one will vary as riders try to catch some sleep,

Rambouillet is 23km further West than SQEY not not sure how the first / last section works now

Start:
Rambouillet
0
(Mortagne-au-Perche)   
140
Not a control - food & water available
Villaines-la-Juhel   
221
Fougères   
306
Tinteniac   
364
Loudeac   
449
(Saint-Nicholas-du-Pelem)   
493
32
Not a control - food, water, sleep
Carhaix-Plouguer   
525
Brest   
618
Carhaix-Plouguer   
703
(Saint-Nicholas-du-Pelem)   
736
Not a control - food, water, sleep
Loudeac   
782
Tinteniac   
867
Fougères   
921
Villaines-la-Juhel   
1009
Mortagne-au-Perche   
1090
Dreux   
1165
Finish:
Rambouillet   
1230
-
 
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: telstarbox on August 19, 2019, 01:03:38 pm
You can get a good sample of the 'shape' of the ride by adding random riders from each start time group e.g. A001, B001, C001.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Redlight on August 19, 2019, 03:57:11 pm
Rambouillet is 23km further West than SQEY not not sure how the first / last section works now

I think, from reading other threads over the past few months, that the route has been tweaked slightly so that it is now much closer to 1200km - something that will no doubt be appreciated by full value riders on Thursday morning!
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: hellymedic on August 19, 2019, 04:02:42 pm
Facebook has decided to translate Villaines-La-Juhel to Nasty-LA-Juhel...
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: slugbait on August 19, 2019, 05:54:19 pm
Compared to TCR, it's a bit annoying that we don't get real time information of where the riders are. I'm now left wondering why one of the riders I'm following hasn't arrived in Brest yet. Surely, if you can average well over 25 km/h to Carhaix (incl. rest), then you can do Carhaix-Brest in under 4 hours?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Von Broad on August 19, 2019, 06:21:42 pm
The tracker might be a bits pants on occasions. Another rider I'm following, Eric Norris from the USA, is not logged as passing through Villaines, but a tweet with a photo from him confirms he has arrived.

Nothing showing for phil w OTP either. Hope he's ok.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: αdαmsκι on August 19, 2019, 07:10:29 pm
Phil W packed at Mortagne-au-Perche and is planning a very slow ride back to the ferry
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: drgannet on August 19, 2019, 08:21:19 pm
I'm enjoying the tracker, the way it remembers all the riders you have searched for and found.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Von Broad on August 19, 2019, 08:26:59 pm
Phil W packed at Mortagne-au-Perche and is planning a very slow ride back to the ferry

OK Adam, thanks. What with the WCW 600, things don't seem to have gone his way this time around.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: T42 on August 20, 2019, 08:51:52 am
One of my chums here is out as well. Powerful bloke, too - somewhat surprising.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Redlight on August 20, 2019, 08:57:42 am
Quite a few overnight packs, it seems. Headwind and rain pushed the average speeds down significantly.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Redlight on August 20, 2019, 09:02:54 am
Also, a few people are showing as having passed through Carhaix twice but without visiting Brest in-between  ???
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: telstarbox on August 20, 2019, 09:04:11 am
For those of you who've done it before (or if you're out there reading this now!), do you actually enjoy the second half or is it more a case of gritting your teeth and finishing the job?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Redlight on August 20, 2019, 09:13:21 am
For those of you who've done it before (or if you're out there reading this now!), do you actually enjoy the second half or is it more a case of gritting your teeth and finishing the job?

Depends how much time you have in hand!

In 2003 I was on the rivet all the way back and didn't enjoy it much.  In 2011 and 2015 I paced myself better on the outbound leg so that I could stop off at more of the informal feeding spots along the way and thoroughly enjoy the ride.  The only part I never enjoy is between Fougeres and Villaines, which just seems to drag on and  on and on.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: slugbait on August 20, 2019, 09:15:42 am
Fiona is really taking it easy. She made it to Brest with only 34 minutes to spare (assuming you get 40hrs to reach Brest), seems to have enjoyed a proper night sleep.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 20, 2019, 10:05:05 am

Dunno how it's working, several riders I'm following have either made it to Brest in more than 40 hours, or are over 40 hours and haven't made it yet. Ivo being one of the later.

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Zed43 on August 20, 2019, 10:16:22 am
41 hours 5 minutes official cut-off for Brest.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 20, 2019, 10:18:32 am
41 hours 5 minutes official cut-off for Brest.

Ivo has 4 minutes to get there...

One friend I'm following is showing as 41:17. I hope they let that slide...

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: slugbait on August 20, 2019, 10:22:16 am
41 hours 5 minutes official cut-off for Brest.

That's quite generous. But you should be cycling, not posting stuff on yacf  ;)
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 20, 2019, 10:26:22 am
41 hours 5 minutes official cut-off for Brest.

That's quite generous. But you should be cycling, not posting stuff on yacf  ;)

He made it to Brest in 34:37, and to Carhaix-Plougher in 40:00:50. So He can allow him self 5 mins to update us lot :p

On a semi related note, during the TCR, a number of tweets along the lines of "stop tweeting and get cycling" really fucked with my mental state, it really isn't good form to send such messages to people doing events like this. if you're spending time doing something like posting here, or reading twitter, it's usually to get your mental state back on form ready to get back in the saddle.

Keep going zed43, you're doing amazing!

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Von Broad on August 20, 2019, 10:29:01 am
For those of you who've done it before (or if you're out there reading this now!), do you actually enjoy the second half or is it more a case of gritting your teeth and finishing the job?

Depends how much time you have in hand!

It really depends how much time you have in hand  :)

All three times I've done it, it's been a complete and utter stressfest - [which has it's own retrospective reflective kind of enjoyment, but most definitely not at the time!!] - losing a little bit of time between each control and watching the cut-off guillotine get ever nearer means you enter 'gritting teeth' territory. But if you're a slowy like me then that's what happens. Par for the course. The main issue is sleep really. Riders in the mid-range ability - faster than me, but not really quick - can afford to knock off a few hours and drab a kip. This makes such a huge difference, meaning you can relax a tad, stop here and there coming back to Paris and savour the experience a bit more.

Personally for me, saying goodbye to Loudeac for a second time is most welcome. That run up to Tinteniac is a nippy section.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: pangolin on August 20, 2019, 10:29:59 am
41 hours 5 minutes official cut-off for Brest.

That's quite generous. But you should be cycling, not posting stuff on yacf  ;)

He made it to Brest in 34:37, and to Carhaix-Plougher in 40:00:50. So He can allow him self 5 mins to update us lot :p

On a semi related note, during the TCR, a number of tweets along the lines of "stop tweeting and get cycling" really fucked with my mental state, it really isn't good form to send such messages to people doing events like this. if you're spending time doing something like posting here, or reading twitter, it's usually to get your mental state back on form ready to get back in the saddle.

Keep going zed43, you're doing amazing!

J

I'm sure it depends on the rider, it's probably less likely to be harmful than posting that your friend was out of time though!
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Von Broad on August 20, 2019, 10:32:34 am
Quite a few overnight packs, it seems. Headwind and rain pushed the average speeds down significantly.

Is that so? Must admit,  I haven't been paying much attention to the forecast - there was talk of good weather predicted for the whole week. Things can change!
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 20, 2019, 10:34:18 am
I'm sure it depends on the rider, it's probably less likely to be harmful than posting that your friend was out of time though!

a) The friend who was 15 mins over time isn't on yacf, and isn't mentioned by name. They have left Brest, and are moving. By not mentioning any identifying details, I was curious if any previous riders would contribute things like "they aren't that harsh with cut offs" or "they may be more generous cos of the headwinds"

b) Ivo isn't reading yacf while riding.

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: T42 on August 20, 2019, 10:35:49 am
For those of you who've done it before (or if you're out there reading this now!), do you actually enjoy the second half or is it more a case of gritting your teeth and finishing the job?

Half & half.  Some of the climbs, particularly after resting a while in Brest, were painful, others were OK; descents were delightful, particularly from Le Roc'h Trevezel.

In 2007 the last approach to Guyancourt was hilarious, sprinting between traffic lights with a bunch of chortling Dutchmen and complaining bitterly every time the light turned red.

Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: slugbait on August 20, 2019, 10:36:26 am
@QG: I'm quite sure that Zed43's mental state is sufficiently resilient to take my comments on him posting here during PBP.

About Ivo: his tracker still shows him at Loudeac, which seems to imply that there is something wrong with his tracking device or that he's "abandon".
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 20, 2019, 10:47:03 am
@QG: I'm quite sure that Zed43's mental state is sufficiently resilient to take my comments on him posting here during PBP.

Yeah, you and zed43 have known each other long enough for it to probably be ok. It's just a pet hate of mine, and I don't want people who perhaps aren't as familiar with each other to get the idea it's acceptable. Slogging up a mountain, turning on your phone and getting a barrage of messages of "you're too slow" "you're stopping too much" "you're paused time is shocking". All of which seemed to have ignored the previous tweet I'd sent saying "taking an early nap in the hottest part of the day, will push through the night", to explain the high paused time...

I may have an axe to grind here. I've been trying to write a blog post about it since I scratched from the TCR, I've started with "Dear Dotwatchers, be better" and I've deleted everything I've written a couple of times...

Quote
About Ivo: his tracker still shows him at Loudeac, which seems to imply that there is something wrong with his tracking device or that he's "abandon".

Yeah, I've been pondering the merits of a text message asking if he's OK.

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: farfetched on August 20, 2019, 10:49:13 am
I have been following a few people who i know usually complete 400/600km well within time, and i would consider them stronger riders than myself.
But i see that many are on 39+ hrs at Brest, some will even be over the 40hrs.  Is there something about this event that make it extra hard ? Do people faff around too much at the controls... perhaps brutal head winds ?




Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 20, 2019, 10:51:31 am
I have been following a few people who i know usually complete 400/600km well within time, and i would consider them stronger riders than myself.
But i see that many are on 39+ hrs at Brest, some will even be over the 40hrs.  Is there something about this event that make it extra hard ? Do people faff around too much at the controls... perhaps brutal head winds ?

Based on messages I'm seeing on twitter and instagram lots of moaning about the wind, and it would appear to be hillier than expected.

For the full value riders they are going to have a light headwind on the way back too...

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: S2L on August 20, 2019, 11:05:42 am
and it would appear to be hillier than expected.

Surely in this age of ubiquitous geo-topographical information freely available, it is a rider's failure to prepare?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: farfetched on August 20, 2019, 11:06:54 am
I have just gone through the regulations for 90hrs group and its closing at 11.21am in Brest (20/8) for a 17:15 start (18/8) - this equals 42h06min for 610km.

Thats gives some of them a little more time than i thought - Should be interesting to see how they all get on, wouldnt like to cycle 600km with 1 or 2 hours
to play with (after already 600km into head winds and hills)
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: cygnet on August 20, 2019, 12:52:28 pm
I have been following a few people who i know usually complete 400/600km well within time, and i would consider them stronger riders than myself.
But i see that many are on 39+ hrs at Brest, some will even be over the 40hrs.  Is there something about this event that make it extra hard ? Do people faff around too much at the controls... perhaps brutal head winds ?

Looking at the map, the timing point is on the way out of Brest. So they will already have controlled and maybe even slept.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: cygnet on August 20, 2019, 01:04:22 pm
Also, a few people are showing as having passed through Carhaix twice but without visiting Brest in-between  ???

As above, the time check is about 1km after the control according to the map. If they didn't return to the route exactly where they left it they might have missed it.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: slugbait on August 20, 2019, 01:16:29 pm
And the first riders are back in Paris, fastest time I can spot is 44h47 by Robert Coquen. That would be the slowest "winner" since 1971. Or am I missing someone?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: T42 on August 20, 2019, 01:28:53 pm
Also, a few people are showing as having passed through Carhaix twice but without visiting Brest in-between  ???

As above, the time check is about 1km after the control according to the map. If they didn't return to the route exactly where they left it they might have missed it.

I wouldn't rely too much on the map. That horrible school will be the control - it'd be daft to have them a klick further on.  The check-in will be clearly-enough signposted and that's what they'll be looking for as soon as they get there.  In 2015 I was knackered when I got there and I found it, so it has to be easy.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: T42 on August 20, 2019, 01:31:49 pm
And the first riders are back in Paris, fastest time I can spot is 44h47 by Robert Coquen. That would be the slowest "winner" since 1971. Or am I missing someone?

One of those toasted-torpedo things A velomobile did it in 43h49:47
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Zed43 on August 20, 2019, 03:28:44 pm
No harm done, I have a thick skin. Currently very red skin, forgot to apply sunscreen this morning
Currently residing at randonneurs.nl HQ at the camping near Loudeac (spotted the ACME camper as well). Good food, shower, now a nap I think. Arrived with almost 10 hours in hand, but if I arrive on Wednesday I have no place to sleep, so just a relaxed ride back for me. Otherwise I would have pushed for a fast ride back bouncing the controls.

The people cheering you on front the street ar 4am is just an amazing experience, but for all other aspects give me LEL anyway.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: mzjo on August 20, 2019, 03:56:23 pm
I am surprised to hear that the weather might be slowing things; looking at La Chaîne Meteo on the telly I was thinking it looked to be quite good for riding. Just shows what goes on the road can be a bit different to your expectations sitting on the sofa.

Top ride for that velomobile - someone hire him for Battlemountain?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: T42 on August 20, 2019, 04:46:05 pm
On the Earth Wind Map site you can roll the weather back and see what it was like

https://earth.nullschool.net/#2019/08/18/1800Z/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-12.38,49.18,3000/loc=-1.592,48.086

If you click on "Earth" you get a bunch of parameters to play with.  I've found that gust speed is usually the value at 1000 or even 850 hPa.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Martin on August 20, 2019, 05:46:32 pm
How do the control times for 84hr riders work? do you have to reach Brest in the 90hr 42 hrs or the 84hr?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: slugbait on August 20, 2019, 05:48:09 pm
And the first riders are back in Paris, fastest time I can spot is 44h47 by Robert Coquen. That would be the slowest "winner" since 1971. Or am I missing someone?

One of those toasted-torpedo things A velomobile did it in 43h49:47

A velomobile doesn't count. They always tell you have comfortable those things are, but they don't seem to understand that suffering is an essential part of cycling :P
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: slugbait on August 20, 2019, 05:50:00 pm
No harm done, I have a thick skin. Currently very red skin, forgot to apply sunscreen this morning
Currently residing at randonneurs.nl HQ at the camping near Loudeac (spotted the ACME camper as well). Good food, shower, now a nap I think. Arrived with almost 10 hours in hand, but if I arrive on Wednesday I have no place to sleep, so just a relaxed ride back for me. Otherwise I would have pushed for a fast ride back bouncing the controls.

The people cheering you on front the street ar 4am is just an amazing experience, but for all other aspects give me LEL anyway.

Good to hear that you're cruising back to Paris. Since you're in Loudueac: Any news on Ivo?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: dod on August 20, 2019, 06:27:53 pm
Ivo has been posting on the PBP Facebook group - he packed (at Loudeac I think) and is on a train back to Paris along with lots of others who abandoned.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Martin on August 20, 2019, 07:37:02 pm
I have been following a few people who i know usually complete 400/600km well within time, and i would consider them stronger riders than myself.
But i see that many are on 39+ hrs at Brest, some will even be over the 40hrs.  Is there something about this event that make it extra hard ? Do people faff around too much at the controls... perhaps brutal head winds ?
A big difference to 4/6 is that riders are out 4 nights not 1 so all the 90hr riders will have gone through 2
nights when they reach Brest. Most will have tried to sleep at Loudieac or beyond so those 42 hours soon go. There is more faff compared to UK events, the brevet control is not next to the food stop at any controls, and the queues for (not very good)food can be quite long so you end up finding somewhere else. Then you get these kids who sit out in their front gardens all day and night handing out free stuff which is hard to resist!

and it gets hilly!

I really enjoyed it after the second stop at Loudieac as I'd broken the back of the ride. It all went pear shaped for me at 1000k just when everyone else was beginning to enjoy it
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 20, 2019, 08:24:24 pm

Darren Franks seems to have gone off route in the final 100km or so.

Either that, or the route loaded in isn't the correct route:

http://pbp-2019.legendstracking.com/#

The official tracker has him as having past the last control... he just needs to finish.

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Redlight on August 20, 2019, 08:29:12 pm
Looks like the route may have been changed from whichever one was used to create the dot watching site. In past years we've used main roads (with escorts) for the first part of the ride but sometimes returned on quieter roads, which are safer for tired riders.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Jack_P on August 20, 2019, 08:39:11 pm
Marko Baloh at 44:48:47 (tracker time) with 2 others is what I heard about first finishers, all third hand though.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 20, 2019, 08:44:50 pm
Darren Franks seems to have gone off route in the final 100km or so.

Looks like he's following the proper route (which was changed with a day or so to go). From the other thread:-

They just changed the return route after Dreux because of road works at Marsauceux:

https://scontent-frx5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67966825_10156914349113780_8061419813752274944_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQmvc8CPhCCNuO4OpzkalPuu1n3ExEjmVnH0r5RP4UqBLRg3Z5shN6Vnl2YR6KKnGQU&_nc_ht=scontent-frx5-1.xx&oh=0bb9bf1b19eec3a11df6c3050d5314f5&oe=5DD005AE

https://www.openrunner.com/r/9220697

As Redlight says, that legendstracking site doesn't have the updated route.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 20, 2019, 08:47:28 pm

Phew. Thanks for the info

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: TigaSefi on August 20, 2019, 09:49:07 pm
Marko Baloh at 44:48:47 (tracker time) with 2 others is what I heard about first finishers, all third hand though.

He is a machine and he’s over 50! Insane rider...his RAAM exploits are legendary...
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: grams on August 20, 2019, 11:41:36 pm
So... we have 42 hours out and 48 hours back. Can someone whose brain is still workable figure out where the extra 6 are distributed?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: dod on August 20, 2019, 11:56:26 pm
So... we have 42 hours out and 48 hours back. Can someone whose brain is still workable figure out where the extra 6 are distributed?

Extra 6? The time limits are 84 hours for the fast guys and 90 (42+48) for the rest.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 21, 2019, 12:56:43 am
So... we have 42 hours out and 48 hours back. Can someone whose brain is still workable figure out where the extra 6 are distributed?

You can't work it out. At least the details of how it is worked out are not written down anywhere.

If you can find a scan of someone's Brevet card then you'll be able to work it out from there.

Here's one from 2015: https://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c204/cvserina/88_zpsh5dm56ly.jpg but, of course, the times/distances will be different in 2019.

Finding mine from 2011 (can't be 100% accurate with these as photos are blurred or timestamps obscured by stamps):

Start 0km 21/8 18:00
Mortagne 140km 21/8 22:27 au 22/8 03:20
Villaines-La-Juhel 221km 22/8 0:52 au 22/8 08:44
Fougeres 310km 22/8 3:57 au 22/8 14:40
Tinteniac 364km 22/8 5:45 au 22/8 18:38
Loudeac 449km 22/8 8:49 au 23/8 01:08
St Nicolas Du Pelem 493km 22/8 10:23 au 23:08 04:31
Carhaix-Plouguer 525km 22/8 11:32 au 23/8 06:59
Brest 618km 22/8 15:08 au 23/8 13:19
Carhaix-Plouguer 703km 22/8 18:24 au 23/8 19:51
St-N-d-P 736km 22/8 19:47 au 23/8 22:24
Loudeac 782km 22/8 21:42 au 24/8 01:56
Quedillac 841km 23/8 00:23 au 24/8 06:37
Tinteniac 867km 23/8 01:34 au 24/8 08:47
Fougeres 921km 23/8 04:01 au 24/8 13:04
Villaines-La-Juhel 1009km 23/8 08:01 au 24/8 20:12
Mortagne-Au-Perche 1090km 23/8 12:00 au 25/8 01:56
Dreux 1165km 23/8 1645 au 25/8 07:12
Finish 1230km 23/8 19:00 au 25/8 12:00
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 21, 2019, 01:22:48 am
So in 2011 it was 43h19 to Brest and 46h41h home.

The first 300km was at 15kph minimum (Fougeres was 310km at exactly 20h40m) but then it is seemingly random. The average speeds for subsequent sections are all over the place:-

15.00, 15.00, 15.00, 13.58, 13.04, 13.00, 12.96, 14.67, 13.00, 12.92, 13.00, 12.58, 12.00, 12.58, 12.33, 14.13, 14.21, 13.54
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: grams on August 21, 2019, 01:51:01 am
Just to be clear I’m riding the 90 right now and am trapped on a bicycle for the next 30 or so hours.

After various mishaps on the first half I’m up against control closing times. I was hoping it might get easier in the second half...

2019 control closing times are in the participants dossier. If someone wants to work out current minimum speeds.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: LateStarter on August 21, 2019, 03:29:01 am
I haven't seen any mention of secret controls?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Zed43 on August 21, 2019, 03:34:43 am
Well, I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you

Rest assured, they're real and impossible to miss.


Now at Fougeres where it is pleasantly warm in the control hall and they have tasty croissants. I'll lay down here to make further travel safer and wait for the cold outside to dissipate.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: farfetched on August 21, 2019, 08:26:49 am
Just to be clear I’m riding the 90 right now and am trapped on a bicycle for the next 30 or so hours.

After various mishaps on the first half I’m up against control closing times. I was hoping it might get easier in the second half...

2019 control closing times are in the participants dossier. If someone wants to work out current minimum speeds.

Thanks.

According to the tracker you checked in at Tinteniac with 3 mins to spare ...

I have had a go for you - hope its correct.
The dossier is based on 17.15 departure times for 90hrs - i see that you were 17.45 so i have added 30min to the times listed....
Below times are the closing times - stay above 13.5 and you will be fine (easier said than done i assume)

TINTENIAC   869                 07.17
FOUGERES    923                11.26  (54km)  13.17kmh
VILLAINES   1012                18.31  (89km)  12.41kmh
MORT. AU PERCHE  1097       01.33  (85km) 12.23kmh
DREUX   1174                     08.01  (77km)  11.9kmh
RAMBOUILLET   1219           11.45  (45km)  12.05kmh

Good luck ...
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Redlight on August 21, 2019, 08:33:18 am
Well, I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you

Rest assured, they're real and impossible to miss.


Isn't the secret control always in the same place?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 21, 2019, 08:57:35 am
Isn't the secret control always in the same place?

No. There were two in 2011 (Quedillac on the way out, Illifaut on the way back).

2015 used St Nicholas Du Pelem as a secret control I believe. https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=112973.0

Haven't bothered trawling twitter to work out where they are this year.

[EDIT] Looks like StNdP again on the way out: https://twitter.com/mealybar/status/1163464441595334659
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on August 21, 2019, 09:04:47 am
Most will have tried to sleep at Loudieac or beyond so
Grant Farm (I think that's his YACF moniker) has finished in 52 hours with no sleep at all!  :o Last seen trying to remember his name to check in to the hotel he'd booked at the end – possibly now sleeping standing up at reception!
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 21, 2019, 09:31:10 am
So... we have 42 hours out and 48 hours back. Can someone whose brain is still workable figure out where the extra 6 are distributed?

Extra 6? The time limits are 84 hours for the fast guys and 90 (42+48) for the rest.

I think this is based on the confusion many have over how ACP do cut off times for controls. Ignoring the special cases for controls in the first 60km, a control from 60-600km has a speed of 15kph. Meaning that if the Brest control was on the dot of 600. Then the cut off would be exactly 40 hours after starting. This would leave 50 hours to do the remaining 600km, meaning 12kph, for an average overall of 13.3kph.

*BUT* it gets very confusing with how the times for the controls after the 600 mark are calculated, and I've yet to fully grasp the algorithm. What is more it gets even weirder for things like the final control. That is at 1175km (near enough to make the maths easy), so at 13.3kph, it should close at 88:04, *BUT* the route is over distance, at closer to 1220, meaning that you have 45km to do after the last control. So if the control closes at 88:04, you'd have to average over 22.5kph to finish in 90 hours.

This makes Grams' question regarding times very much valid, and understandable. Because the route is over distance, because the min speed is not uniform, and because the ACP is the ACP. Unless you look at the official documents from the ACP, then it's very hard to work out closing times for an of the controls...

Does that make sense?

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 21, 2019, 09:51:56 am
So... we have 42 hours out and 48 hours back. Can someone whose brain is still workable figure out where the extra 6 are distributed?

Extra 6? The time limits are 84 hours for the fast guys and 90 (42+48) for the rest.

I think this is based on the confusion many have over how ACP do cut off times for controls. Ignoring the special cases for controls in the first 60km, a control from 60-600km has a speed of 15kph. Meaning that if the Brest control was on the dot of 600. Then the cut off would be exactly 40 hours after starting.

That's the point, they don't apply this rule like this. For 2011 it was on the dot of 15kph for just the first 310km (to Fougeres) and then it drops slowly until Brest where it goes up again and then is up/down for each leg on the way back (but still less than 15kph).

(control, distance, open time close time, cumulative min average speed, leg min average speed)

Start   0   0:00:00   0:00:00      
Mort   140   4:27:00   9:20:00   15.00   15.00
Vil   221   6:52:00   14:44:00   15.00   15.00
Foug   310   9:57:00   20:40:00   15.00   15.00
Tint   364   11:45:00   24:38:00   14.75   13.58
Loud   449   14:49:00   31:08:00   14.42   13.04
StNdP   493   16:23:00   34:31:00   14.25   13.00
Carhaix   525   17:32:00   36:59:00   14.17   12.96
Brest   618   21:08:00   43:19:00   14.25   14.67
Carhaix   703   24:24:00   49:51:00   14.08   13.00
StNdP   736   25:47:00   52:24:00   14.04   12.92
Loud   782   27:42:00   55:56:00   13.96   13.00
Qued   841   30:23:00   60:37:00   13.83   12.58
Tint   867   31:34:00   62:47:00   13.79   12.00
Foug   921   34:01:00   67:04:00   13.71   12.58
Vil   1009   38:01:00   74:12:00   13.58   12.33
Mort   1090   42:00:00   79:56:00   13.63   14.13
Dreux   1165   46:45:00   85:12:00   13.67   14.21
Fin   1230   49:00:00   90:00:00   13.67   13.54

(You'll see the overall average speed doesn't drop steadily and it also increased a tiny bit in the last few stages).

All one can do is keep an eye on the brevet card for when the next control closes (adjusting for your own start time) and make sure you arrive with enough time in hand (especially if you want/need a sleep there). If you've got multiple days to go then you need to build up a time buffer each day so that you can get whatever sleep you need (everyone is individual).
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 21, 2019, 10:04:32 am
*BUT* it gets very confusing with how the times for the controls after the 600 mark are calculated, and I've yet to fully grasp the algorithm. What is more it gets even weirder for things like the final control. That is at 1175km (near enough to make the maths easy), so at 13.3kph, it should close at 88:04, *BUT* the route is over distance, at closer to 1220, meaning that you have 45km to do after the last control. So if the control closes at 88:04, you'd have to average over 22.5kph to finish in 90 hours.

Having looked at it before what I believe they do is do 15kph until a certain point (much less than 600km as even the 364km control from 2011 is below 15kph) and then the rest of the controls times are designed to absorb the over distance portion of the ride so that you don't get into this situation. I'm not sure there's an exact algorithm to do this, but my guess is it is something along the lines of this:-

For example, a control at 1165km of a 1230km ride with the first 310km taken at 15kph would be:-

310/15 = 20h40m leaves 855km of 920km to be done in 69h20m.

855 * 69h20 / 920 = 64h26 and add on the 20h40 to give 85h06 for 1165km. (It was actually 85h12 according to my 2011 brevet card so this is pretty close)

That means that the final 65km (1165km to 1230km) has a much fairer 4h54 time limit (which gives a much fairer minimum average speed for that leg of 13.27kph).

[EDIT] The above is accurate to within 20 minutes for the majority of the controls for 2011 timings.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: grams on August 21, 2019, 10:43:25 am
Thanks far fetched, that’s what I was after.

AIUI it’s rhe brevet card time that matters*. At Villhaines the mat is at the exit!

(* does it? Does anyone know how strictly enforced their policy on refusing validation if intermediate controls are out of time?)
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 21, 2019, 10:45:17 am
Thanks far fetched, that’s what I was after.

AIUI it’s rhe brevet card time that matters*. At Villhaines the mat is at the exit!

(* does it? Does anyone know how strictly enforced their policy on refusing validation if intermediate controls are out of time?)

My understanding is they are strict on it, unless you've got a really good excuse. Best to try to keep within the timing where possible.

Keep faff down, keep forward up. Just. Keep. Pedalling!

J
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Martin on August 21, 2019, 10:53:46 am
Thanks far fetched, that’s what I was after.

AIUI it’s rhe brevet card time that matters*. At Villhaines the mat is at the exit!

(* does it? Does anyone know how strictly enforced their policy on refusing validation if intermediate controls are out of time?)

My understanding is they are strict on it, unless you've got a really good excuse. Best to try to keep within the timing where possible.


that's correct. In 2007 the awful weather produced bulges at the middle controls with riders all seeking shelter overnight so they allowed a 2 hr extension at all intermediate controls EXCEPT the finish (this was advertised on printed sheets at each)
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: farfetched on August 21, 2019, 11:01:13 am

@Grams : you are really cutting it close - 1 min at the last control in Fougeres.
Dossier document states that "closing times must be honoured or homologation will be denied"

Its all quite addictive viewing - pity i will be out tomorrow and not be able to keep an eye on this.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 21, 2019, 11:02:37 am
(* does it? Does anyone know how strictly enforced their policy on refusing validation if intermediate controls are out of time?)

I can only speak for 2011 and the people stamping the cards did not care. Given people start at different times and the Brevet Cards don't account for this they're not inclined to check. The only problem would be if you were so far behind it was obvious you were out of time.

I was an hour or two beyond the time limit printed in the card for almost every control in the latter half as I started 2 hours after the time printed in the card (and my actual starting time was never written in the card, they relied on the chip timing at the start to record that) and was right on the time limit. Not once did anyone say anything. I rode through the last night and romped home in the sunshine to finish with 2 hours to spare.

2011 had different starting arrangements though (you didn't get given a specific wave and starting time).
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Martin on August 21, 2019, 11:04:38 am
I was in the very last 90h group out in 2007 and they wrote my actual start time (2300) in the card, this was what I worked to, even then it took 20 mins to get from the control to actually roling along
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: T42 on August 21, 2019, 11:09:39 am
In 2007 they allowed everyone (in the 21:00 group at least) an extra hour. Just as well: I took my last photo before the start at 22:10.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: JBB on August 21, 2019, 11:39:03 am
I just added an offset for my start time to the times in the brochure, which of course does not match the brevet card times....
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Martin on August 21, 2019, 11:40:51 am
I do know of one rider who was an hour late at the finish and quietly stamped and waved on; from what I've heard they were in a bit of a state
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 21, 2019, 05:05:03 pm
TINTENIAC   869                 07.17
FOUGERES    923                11.26  (54km)  13.17kmh
VILLAINES   1012                18.31  (89km)  12.41kmh
MORT. AU PERCHE  1097       01.33  (85km) 12.23kmh
DREUX   1174                     08.01  (77km)  11.9kmh
RAMBOUILLET   1219           11.45  (45km)  12.05kmh

grams to Villaines-La-Juhel at 17:57 so with 35 minutes in hand (upon arrival).
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Hofnar on August 21, 2019, 10:01:34 pm
I haven't seen any mention of secret controls?

As by now everyone should be well past them the secret can be lifted they where a bit lazy and just turned their table around ;) both at St Nicolas Du Pelem
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: grams on August 21, 2019, 11:30:34 pm
The table was inside the first time and out in the street the second, requiring cyclocross skillz to get from there to the bike parking.

I think a lot of people might have missed it the first time. I only spotted they were stamping cards when I was looking for somewhere to buy coffee.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 22, 2019, 08:57:46 am
TINTENIAC   869                 07.17
FOUGERES    923                11.26  (54km)  13.17kmh
VILLAINES   1012                18.31  (89km)  12.41kmh
MORT. AU PERCHE  1097       01.33  (85km) 12.23kmh
DREUX   1174                     08.01  (77km)  11.9kmh
RAMBOUILLET   1219           11.45  (45km)  12.05kmh

grams to Villaines-La-Juhel at 17:57 so with 35 minutes in hand (upon arrival).

grams had 1h22 in hand at Mortagne and 16 minutes in hand at Dreux.

Just over 3 hours to do the last 44km (I think, not sure with the recent route change) to Rambouillet. He should be well into that by now as he's got just under 2 hours on the clock to go.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Zed43 on August 22, 2019, 09:04:30 am
He should be good, the last 44km is gentle riding and the sun is shining at the moment.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Redlight on August 22, 2019, 09:21:32 am
Has the new route still got that stingy little climb in the forest? I remember seeing people walking up it on past PBPs, even though they probably wouldn't even have noticed it 1100 km earlier!
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on August 22, 2019, 09:45:21 am
No pretty but tough climb now.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on August 22, 2019, 10:40:38 am
Well he finished just over an hour ago. 88h43. Too quick for Adrian Hands membership.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: grams on August 22, 2019, 11:14:29 am
They didn’t look at the other control times at all before stamping my card and handing over the medal. Might still be checked later...

Has the new route still got that stingy little climb in the forest? I remember seeing people walking up it on past PBPs, even though they probably wouldn't even have noticed it 1100 km earlier!

PBP finish course described as “but wait, there’s more!”
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Wycombewheeler on August 22, 2019, 09:38:45 pm
The table was inside the first time and out in the street the second, requiring cyclocross skillz to get from there to the bike parking.

I think a lot of people might have missed it the first time. I only spotted they were stamping cards when I was looking for somewhere to buy coffee.
When I was there the marshals were very vocal about a control.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: grams on August 23, 2019, 02:17:07 am
These were the numbers I was trying to figure out earlier in the thread. This is how much extra time you get for each leg vs the average speed out to Brest (14.49 km/h).

to Mortagne-au-Perche (-17 minutes)
To VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL (-14 minutes)
to FOUGERES (-13 minutes)
To TINTENIAC (+7 minutes)
to Quédillac (+3 minutes)
To LOUDEAC (+9 minutes)
To Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem (+9 minutes)
To CARHAIX-PLOUGUER (+2 minutes)
To BREST (+12 minutes)

To CARHAIX-PLOUGUER (+14 minutes)
To Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem (+17 minutes)
To LOUDEAC (+20 minutes)
to Quédillac (+28 minutes)
To TINTENIAC (+15 minutes)
to FOUGERES (+25 minutes)
To VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL (+56 minutes)
to Mortagne-au-Perche (+70 minutes)
to Dreux (+69 minutes)
to Rambouillet (+38 minutes)
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: grams on August 23, 2019, 02:39:45 am
According to the numbers on my brevet, I was 2 minutes late to Brest and 1 minute late to Tinteniac*. I was 3 minutes late over the start line (Not my fault, congestion before card stamping) so my relative tracking times are under the limits. Should I email them or leave it to fait?

(* there were two controllers and a digital clock on the wall that was two minutes fast. One of the guys said "Dix-sept" out loud while the other was stamping my brevet. Then while he was admiring his handiwork the clock changed. The guy looked at my pointedly and said "Dix-huit" and that's what I got. I think they enjoyed it...)
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: T42 on August 23, 2019, 08:21:32 am
From what I've seen in the past they'll probably round down small discrepancies.  They knocked six minutes off my time in 2015, and in 2007 I noticed that quite a few people were credited with 90 hours dead on.

Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: marcusjb on August 23, 2019, 09:24:28 am
^ plenty of jiggery-pokery goes on it seems - as above, many people seem to finish at 90:00 exactly....

I honestly would not worry Grams - you were well in time at the end; you will be homolowhatsitted no problem.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: grams on September 24, 2019, 10:33:56 pm
I've just managed to get the data into a processable format, and my first attempt at analysis says that of the 4102 riders with both a complete set of scans and who finished under the time limit, only 3085 actually made it to every control on time.

There are 702 people who were at least an hour behind at least once, and 458 of them were at least two hours behind! I even found a couple of riders who were 9 hours behind at one point, and somehow finished on time. Tinteniac on the way back seems to the worst place.

It's entirely possible I cocked something up, or the data's wonky, but if these numbers are right then they can't enforce intermediate controls without disqualifying rather a lot of riders.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Tillapaw on September 25, 2019, 07:39:50 am
At some of the controls you rolled over the timing mat on the way in as well as on the way out.  I'd bet that if the timing mat didn't register their visit on the way in then the time registered might be for the way out.  Just after the ride I noticed that one of the times in my tracking data was registered on the way out of the control but looking at it now I couldn't tell you which one it was.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: LateStarter on September 25, 2019, 09:57:08 am
When the tracking site first came up but before the start there was a note saying it would use riders average speed to estimate location between controls, to do this they would have to time going out as well as going in. When the ride started the note was changed to say it would only show location of last control entered, perhaps they didn't have enough mats for all controls for in & out. 2023 is a long time away in technology so perhaps there will be a magic app that will track and tell each rider individually their personal time in hand etc.

Ps I actually kept a copy of the note
https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/3423227588?profile=original
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 25, 2019, 10:15:51 am
I find all this analysis fascinating. You might expect that more data, and more investigation of that data, would result in better performance, with more people finishing. The opposite seems to be happening, with more HDs, and more DNFs.

I'd see it as a cybernetic problem. The basic control language for a French event should be French. But the field contains fewer French speakers in each successive edition. The next default is English, but there are a large number of dialects being used. That means that mathematics becomes an important feedback path.

But if you've got the legs, French is more important than maths, as it it makes sense of the controls, and of the shops. Tablets and smartphones carry the promise of a single world culture, but you are still in France.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: phil w on September 25, 2019, 05:37:29 pm
I find all this analysis fascinating. You might expect that more data, and more investigation of that data, would result in better performance, with more people finishing. The opposite seems to be happening, with more HDs, and more DNFs.

I doubt that many of the 6000-7000 riders are analysing data from previous PBPs at all.  There's little if any official analysis and publication I'm aware of. Nothing in the dossier that I'm aware of. What would be interesting (to me) is to see if the amount of time stopped is increasing and if so, by how much each edition? How much does your start affect time stopped? PBP really does suck time at controls like no other.  Are on the road speeds dropping or are controls just leeching away time?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: zigzag on September 25, 2019, 05:50:03 pm
controls are what they were in previous two editions - i haven't noticed any big changes. some are better, some less good, but for their basic function (stamp, snack, drink) they were all pretty good and efficient (tip: avoid paying with contactless card).
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 25, 2019, 05:59:01 pm
I was thinking more of the analysis by the organisers. LEL attempted to draw lessons from previous editions. In the end there were more DNFs following the analysis than before.

I'd say it's because the net is being thrown wider than before. Fewer of the participants belong to clubs with PBP experience, and fewer have experience of riding in groups, and of riding TTs. They think that can be offset by spreadsheets, consumer electronics, novel frame materials, electric gears and 1x chain sets. In addition, fewer speak French.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: phil w on September 25, 2019, 06:24:48 pm
I was thinking more of the analysis by the organisers. LEL attempted to draw lessons from previous editions. In the end there were more DNFs following the analysis than before.


But the analysis of the 13 data wasn't of DNFs not was it in order to reduce DNFs. That was more about trying to help smooth the peaks of riders in controls. But there's many factors, including who has entered, the weather, (human physcology you can nudge but no more) you can't control, which may render the efforts null and void. then add in changes in numbers and more hills.  You can see that the rider start time in 17 did not have a significant impact on finish rates. The last start did have the best finish rate but then you start asking who is more likely to opt for a late start.

I'd be wary of expecting an outcome of an analysis which was never intended to achieve it.

I'm not sure that PBP changed much in their format from 15 other than the forced move to Rambouillet.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 25, 2019, 06:51:13 pm
I'm surprised that analysis isn't aimed at reducing DNFs. I suppose that might accord with a desire to make the event 'tougher'.

The main change to the format from 2015 for PBP was the way the entry panned out. Initially it was the same as 2015, but the dramatic fall in the proportion of French pre-qualifiers caused an increase in the overall allocation. As it turned out, there wasn't an increase in the field beyond the envisaged 6,000, and certainly no increase in validations. Meanwhile, French participation fell below 25%.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: phil w on September 25, 2019, 07:17:57 pm
I'm surprised that analysis isn't aimed at reducing DNFs. I suppose that might accord with a desire to make the event 'tougher'.

I think it's just a recognition that's there's only so much an organiser can do, and there are many factors outside their control which impact DNF rates much more.

The most interesting factor that can be influenced is human physcology.  So the don't worry about control times northbound meant a number were taking it easy going north. A number didn't take advantage of the tailwind in the fens and didn't think about headwinds on their return etc.  Riders who reached Louth after dark were increasingly reluctant to push on to Pocklington. So 2021 provide a shelter control midway by Humber bridge can influence that desire to ride into the night etc.  In fact there was a distinct drop off in riders on the road once it got dark. But then in 13 the problem was Pocklington not Market Rasen the equivalent of Louth in that edition.

It is  easy to think an organiser can control the DNF rate, but I think that's an illusion unless they massage those out of time into the finishers, to match some kind of idealised figure. Changing the rules after the fact. That get increasingly hard for them to do with online tracking.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 25, 2019, 07:39:00 pm
So the current lot of audaxers/ randonneurs aren’t a patch on those of a generation or two ago, because the current lot DNF more?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 25, 2019, 08:33:27 pm

It is  easy to think an organiser can control the DNF rate, but I think that's an illusion unless they massage those out of time into the finishers, to match some kind of idealised figure. Changing the rules after the fact. That get increasingly hard for them to do with online tracking.

We had electronic tracking in 1999. It wasn't online, except via Minitel in France. It was done with magnetic-strip cards. By 2003 it was available in real time online. 1999 and 2007 had two hour time extensions, as did LEL 2009. There's always a bit of confusion with those, ensuring that participants are aware of the changes at the time they happen.

There's possibly a case for a short extension due to the roadworks diversion this year, but a bit unfair retrospectively.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: SR Steve on September 26, 2019, 01:40:00 am
So the current lot of audaxers/ randonneurs aren’t a patch on those of a generation or two ago, because the current lot DNF more?

LOL! To be fair I think 2019 was one of the tougher PBPs with headwinds both ways and cold nights. By contrast I found 2015 the easiest that I’ve completed with hardly any wind and milder nights. 2015 was also dry for me as I finished before it started raining.

Anyone not finishing the last PBP or LEL shouldn’t be too hard on themselves as they were both very tough rides. They should just learn from their experiences and have another go next time. The main advice I would give would be to not squander any time in hand they build up as it is more precious than gold.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Chrisheg on September 26, 2019, 05:14:49 am

...but the dramatic fall in the proportion of French pre-qualifiers caused an increase in the overall allocation. As it turned out, there wasn't an increase in the field beyond the envisaged 6,000, and certainly no increase in validations. Meanwhile, French participation fell below 25%.

I wondered why they didn't let the attrition after the initial full registration stand to reduce crowding - not enough French riders on long brevets last year? I also wonder if DNF/Abandon rates correlate to registration date.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Pip on September 26, 2019, 07:23:15 am
So the current lot of audaxers/ randonneurs aren’t a patch on those of a generation or two ago, because the current lot DNF more?

LOL! To be fair I think 2019 was one of the tougher PBPs with headwinds both ways and cold nights. By contrast I found 2015 the easiest that I’ve completed with hardly any wind and milder nights. 2015 was also dry for me as I finished before it started raining.

Anyone not finishing the last PBP or LEL shouldn’t be too hard on themselves as they were both very tough rides. They should just learn from their experiences and have another go next time. The main advice I would give would be to not squander any time in hand they build up as it is more precious than gold.

^^^
Wisdom without hyperbole
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: York_Badger on September 26, 2019, 08:00:20 am
At the end of my blog (only a few pages of guff to get to the bottom) I added a table of the number of starters and finishers for every country based on the PBP results unofficial website.  It maybe of interest to those with a bent for getting to the bottom of the stats.

With the possible exception of Brazil the closer a country is to the equator the lower the rate of finishing on time. Doubtless its more complicated than that!

https://yorkbadger.wordpress.com/2019/09/07/pbp-2019/

Stephen

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 26, 2019, 09:16:26 am

...but the dramatic fall in the proportion of French pre-qualifiers caused an increase in the overall allocation. As it turned out, there wasn't an increase in the field beyond the envisaged 6,000, and certainly no increase in validations. Meanwhile, French participation fell below 25%.

I wondered why they didn't let the attrition after the initial full registration stand to reduce crowding - not enough French riders on long brevets last year? I also wonder if DNF/Abandon rates correlate to registration date.

In 2015, we ended up supplying photographs for an article in Cycling Plus, the largest circulation cycling magazine in the  UK. I was approached to approve re-use of that material in mid-December 2014. I assume that most magazines and websites were working to that sort of schedule. Previously, they might have sent a staff writer to tick off PBP, but the pre-qualification seemed to rule that out.

French riders in the Randonnee heartlands in the North seemed to have done the pre-qualifiers. Perhaps we lost those who would have been inspired by 'bucket-list' articles in the media. There are other 'bucket list' events after all, centred on nostalgia or climbing.

We might then expect that the 'successful' applicants would have more time to research aspects such as controls and distances, or likely weather, given their earlier commitment to participation.

So it's interesting to consider if number-crunching can do much to explain the DNF rate, and once explained, do anything to lower it next time. Or whether that is even an aim, given a preference for 'diversity'.

I'd tend to focus on the 'cultural' factors. The main one being a reduction in the number of French-speakers in the field. That will have a bearing on communication between riders and control staff.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Ivo on September 26, 2019, 09:29:17 am
There are two kinds of France nowadays in regard to PBP.
You have the randonneuring heartlands, Bretagne, North and Ile de France. Riders there are aware of the changes in PBP, they do their brevets every year and keep on top of things. They know that PBP is an international event.
Rides from rural France outside of the 3 mentioned area's. They still think that PBP is as 25 years ago, start their preparations in march of the PBP year and were awakened very rude shortly after that. Many of them don't ride brevets in between PBP years.
Their reactions on the French forum are wildly different. The first group completely agrees with the pre-qualification rules and has prepared for them. The 2nd group feels that French riders are entitled to a start spot and complain because they 'couldn't' do BRM's in 2018. When I suggested that they could also organise themselves I was met with a digital blank stare.

in contrast, the crowds in Bretagne react according to their area. They are fully aware that PBP is an international event and enjoy it.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 26, 2019, 10:16:06 am
It maybe of interest to those with a bent for getting to the bottom of the stats.
Why only the supine?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 26, 2019, 12:26:17 pm
There are two kinds of France nowadays in regard to PBP.
You have the randonneuring heartlands, Bretagne, North and Ile de France. Riders there are aware of the changes in PBP, they do their brevets every year and keep on top of things. They know that PBP is an international event.


I have been mistaken for a Norman or a Fleming at Semaine Federale, those being the biggest and tallest of the French. There are cultural links with the area I'm from, so it's understandable. So the Norman controls, Mortagne and Villaines are my favourites. Villaines is actually very badly laid out. But they provide a map of the site, and a couple of children to guide you through the maze.

I do like Brittany, and the great virtue from an organisational point of view is that there are good, non-toll, roads. There is a mobile volunteer element. The guy with the microphone, who the French term an 'animateur', turns up at various points on the route. It's interesting to disentangle the core functions from the control-based ones.

The electronic timing is a core function, connected to HQ. The stamping of the cards is a local function, carried out by local volunteers, and there isn't actually a link between them. I arrived at Loudeac wanting to know when the first group would arrive back from Carhaix. That information wasn't available, and I cobbled together an estimate from the tracking, and a knowledge that Zigzag had been doing well.

The obvious answer to the appetite for feedback is to put the time in hand on the tracking. Those with a smartphone can then use that. Those who want to use other methods can.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 26, 2019, 01:10:07 pm
There's quite a lot that could be done with the electronic tracking the problem is, a lot of that would only be used once every 4 years (unless LEL and other organizers got behind it).
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 26, 2019, 01:19:52 pm
LEL had barcodes being scanned at the same point as the signing. So a display of time-in-hand could be entered in a dedicated box on the card, if that is thought to be a good idea. A similar system could be used at PBP to provide a bit more management information for the control.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: alotronic on September 26, 2019, 07:22:49 pm


I'd say it's because the net is being thrown wider than before. Fewer of the participants belong to clubs with PBP experience, and fewer have experience of riding in groups, and of riding TTs. They think that can be offset by spreadsheets, consumer electronics, novel frame materials, electric gears and 1x chain sets. In addition, fewer speak French.

I believe there was a time when even UK riders were new on the PBP scene, had to learn the ropes etc. Once one or two have experience there is a snowball effect and off you go. Look at ACME, a few in 2015 being led by Tomsk and then a whole heap more (12ish) this time round, many relatively new riders (under two years) < this is the difference and it relates to participation; the more participations you can bank, or be around those who have experience, the better off you are. Or indeed watching films about previous editions. I would say that counts vastly more than the spreadsheets, electrics etc which don't make much of a difference either way. As for knowing French it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. I didn't speak a word of it beyond please and thank you. I am all for a wider net - next time more of those people will come back and finish and educate those around them. Was this not how Audax UK started? In that sense I don't think the DNF rate is particularly important, or rather that it might fluctuate with the experience gained by that country over the years. Corollary is that you shouldn't try to make flagship events 'easier'. PBP and LEL are direct experiences that you can't fake, that's what makes them valuable, I don't think anyone really beleives they can be offset with technology do they?

As for novel frame materials you mean the minority on steel?  ::-)
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 26, 2019, 07:51:58 pm
The early AUKs were mostly long-distance TTers (24hr Fellowship) or hard-riding tourists and had a DNF rate around 10% or below. That certainly isn’t how most newer PBP countries start nowadays, though the Russians and some Eastern European contingents hew close to that model.

ACP historically was very interested in DNF rates, using the PBP plaquette to praise countries with low DNF rates and encouraging other countries to improve.

It is quite noticeable that many French randonneurs and audaxers get ever lighter and more expensive bikes while making jokes about compensation for progressive dilapidation.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: alotronic on September 26, 2019, 09:18:05 pm
The early AUKs were mostly long-distance TTers (24hr Fellowship) or hard-riding tourists and had a DNF rate around 10% or below. That certainly isn’t how most newer PBP countries start nowadays, though the Russians and some Eastern European contingents hew close to that model.


Don't get me wrong, I can see how the 24hr TT and hard-rider ethos is a solid base for a low DNF rate. Indeed those of us who used to be fast but are now just old and slow are still benefiting from early, youthful experiences of pushing very hard! However there are more and more who are just normal riders who are intrgiued and looking for something which is most definetely not racing, or 24tts or hard riding. For these people (and again ACME is a good example) having experienced people around them, PBP pubinars and so on, makes it *relatively* easy to adapt to Audax and they can learn the full-value-way quickly and well. My point is that these riders are onramped through participation and slowly gathering experience and good guides around them and that experience can only come from.... someone in a far away land looking at PBP or LEL (or TCR, whatever) and being audacious enough to have a go... 
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Greenbank on September 26, 2019, 09:25:25 pm
The early AUKs were mostly long-distance TTers (24hr Fellowship) or hard-riding tourists and had a DNF rate around 10% or below.

Not surprising it was a low DNF rate if riders had to do at least 600km in the 24 to qualify for PBP.

In the year I completed PBP (with just a couple of hours to spare) there would have been no chance of me doing 600km in a 24.

The year I did LEL (again with 2 hours to spare) I may have been able to scrape 600km as I had done a lot more riding (that LEL year was part of a 50 point season).
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 26, 2019, 09:54:18 pm
The new wave of Audax clubs are similar in conception to the French cylotouriste clubs. Those French clubs have an over-arching federation, which is now called FF Velo, whose name is on the shirt, as a sponsor. The new town that St Quentin is a part of used to feature heavily, as it put money into PBP, and provided support services.

The intermediate controls are generally run by a federated club, much as the CTC district might take a leading role in an LEL control. So everything ACME does in getting its club members around PBP is replicated around France. As Ivo pointed out upthread, some areas of France took the pre-qualification seriously. But in 2011 the quotas that were envisaged never came to fruition, and in 2015 the pre-qualification didn't bite.

Those countries who had experience of LEL 2013 and 2017 got their ducks in a row, and did 600s and 1,000s. There were French riders at LEL 2017, but not many, as they hadn't got to grips with the entry procedure.

I've done an event called 'Semaine Federale' a number of times. That's a week of Audax-Like rides run by FF Velo in different parts of France every year. It's about twice the size of PBP, and features many familiar faces. It kicks off with a bit of very French ceremonial featuring local dignitaries and the President of FF Velo. The health of the event can be judged by who is on the podium. If the region, the department, the city and the local communes are represented, all is well.

PBP in the past has had ambassadors, and at one point Jacques Chirac, when he was Mayor of Paris, on the podium. This time there was the Mayor of Rambouillet, and the President of FF Velo. So at the same time PBP is becoming international, it is becoming more dependent on a federation of local French cyclotouriste clubs.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: alotronic on September 27, 2019, 08:52:09 am
The new wave of Audax clubs are similar in conception to the French cylotouriste clubs. Those French clubs have an over-arching federation, which is now called FF Velo, whose name is on the shirt, as a sponsor. The new town that St Quentin is a part of used to feature heavily, as it put money into PBP, and provided support services.

The intermediate controls are generally run by a federated club, much as the CTC district might take a leading role in an LEL control. So everything ACME does in getting its club members around PBP is replicated around France. As Ivo pointed out upthread, some areas of France took the pre-qualification seriously. But in 2011 the quotas that were envisaged never came to fruition, and in 2015 the pre-qualification didn't bite.

Those countries who had experience of LEL 2013 and 2017 got their ducks in a row, and did 600s and 1,000s. There were French riders at LEL 2017, but not many, as they hadn't got to grips with the entry procedure.

I've done an event called 'Semaine Federale' a number of times. That's a week of Audax-Like rides run by FF Velo in different parts of France every year. It's about twice the size of PBP, and features many familiar faces. It kicks off with a bit of very French ceremonial featuring local dignitaries and the President of FF Velo. The health of the event can be judged by who is on the podium. If the region, the department, the city and the local communes are represented, all is well.

PBP in the past has had ambassadors, and at one point Jacques Chirac, when he was Mayor of Paris, on the podium. This time there was the Mayor of Rambouillet, and the President of FF Velo. So at the same time PBP is becoming international, it is becoming more dependent on a federation of local French cyclotouriste clubs.

Ah, ok, I see what you are saying. Perhaps eventually PBP will be run by AUK  :P Looked up the Semaine Federal and it looks terrific, however you really would want a bit of french to navigate that one!
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 27, 2019, 10:16:59 am
PBP has become more like LEL in the last two editions. The start was altered to a lettered configuration, and the pre-registration brought in some seed-money, which must have offset some of the sponsorship money.

The remaining major difference is in paying for catering. The all-in payment for LEL means that DNFs have no impact on income. At PBP the DNFs are no longer going through the control cafes, which impacts on income.
The French are more likely to have support, and to use external catering, as they can emphasise that they want quick service, and can judge the possibility of that.

So a larger proportion of non-French increases the load on controls, and if they then DNF at a higher rate, there is less income and more waste. PBP is an interesting exercise for a management accountant, I'd love to see the figures.

The answer probably lies in a combination of LEL and Semaine Federale. SF has introduced a system of pre-paid electronic armbands for payment at what are essentially controls. At Sem Fed there's no compulsion to use  the welcome points, but they are easier to use for foreigners than living off the land. You might possibly link PBP pre-payment to not having a support vehicle, so that locals could still cater for themselves.

One sign of the convergence was the accordionist at the finish, who is a Sem Fed fixture.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Wycombewheeler on September 27, 2019, 06:38:49 pm
I'd be interested to know how many ends still go through controls. After all these people still need to get back to the start.

I've heard accounts of riders turning at Carhaix and riding back to remain within the event, and also if riders realising they are out of time and taking a leisurely ride back finishing hd.

What I would most like to see though is data giving numbers of arrivals at each control per hour to see when the bulge was and how much it differed from my arrival time.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: JonBuoy on September 27, 2019, 07:00:37 pm
...
What I would most like to see though is data giving numbers of arrivals at each control per hour to see when the bulge was and how much it differed from my arrival time.

How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgJQ7KSSkwo
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 29, 2019, 08:37:06 pm
...
What I would most like to see though is data giving numbers of arrivals at each control per hour to see when the bulge was and how much it differed from my arrival time.

How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgJQ7KSSkwo

I hadn't thought to compare that with my times before;
I managed to drop behind the bulge, then overtake it, then drop behind, then overtake it again and repeat until finishing just ahead of it.
Which explains why there was only 2 controls I thought were absolutely carnage, Carhaix on the way out and Mortagne on the return, I appear to have ridden in the bulge between Villaines and Mortagne but slept less.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: SR Steve on September 30, 2019, 12:18:13 am
...
What I would most like to see though is data giving numbers of arrivals at each control per hour to see when the bulge was and how much it differed from my arrival time.

How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgJQ7KSSkwo

I hadn't thought to compare that with my times before;
I managed to drop behind the bulge, then overtake it, then drop behind, then overtake it again and repeat until finishing just ahead of it.
Which explains why there was only 2 controls I thought were absolutely carnage, Carhaix on the way out and Mortagne on the return, I appear to have ridden in the bulge between Villaines and Mortagne but slept less.

In 2015 I remember seeing a similar graphical representation where you could put your rider number in and see how you fared compared to the bulge.
I was in Group Z in 2015 and 2019 and went through the bulge both times, but because the weather conditions made it harder in 2019, I caught some Group U riders before Villaines and saw a lot of riders who had packed coming back the other way before Fougeres. I wasn't going any where near as well as in the Mersey 24 hour or recent 200km rides and couldn't keep up with lots of other 84 hour riders, but I was only off the bike for a total of less than two hours from the start up to leaving Brest so I was still making good steady progress. All the controls were very busy for me from Fougeres outbound to Loudeac inbound, so I bounced them until Tinteniac on the return where I had my first sit down meal. By this time most of the riders around me were 80 hour starters close to the limit and faster 90 hour starters who had slept. There were very few 84 hour starters around and I didn't see any others from Group Z. I had already passed a few struggling Group A starters and I stayed ahead of the Group A control closing times from Tinteniac to the finish. I ended up knocking 25 minutes off my previous best time set in 2015, but was on the bike about 3 hours more in 2019.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Nebulous on September 30, 2019, 07:43:41 am

I hadn't thought to compare that with my times before;
I managed to drop behind the bulge, then overtake it, then drop behind, then overtake it again and repeat until finishing just ahead of it.
Which explains why there was only 2 controls I thought were absolutely carnage, Carhaix on the way out and Mortagne on the return, I appear to have ridden in the bulge between Villaines and Mortagne but slept less.

I really like that graphic. It would be good to see it based on the time of day, rather than time on the road, to give the numbers at each control at any one point in time. It looks like I spent pretty much my whole ride in the bulge, varying slightly but usually just ahead of the biggest peak.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 30, 2019, 08:04:43 am
I really like that graphic. It would be good to see it based on the time of day, rather than time on the road, to give the numbers at each control at any one point in time. It looks like I spent pretty much my whole ride in the bulge, varying slightly but usually just ahead of the biggest peak.
Graphic was interesting, but to get an insight into the bulge (ie the time and its breadth as it 'passed' through each control) the data used needs to be moderated by the time of start, to give the bulge 'real time' data/presentation. The bulge's peak (numbers) unsurprisingly reduces as the ride goes on, so I surmise has less significant after Fougeres (eastbound).
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 30, 2019, 09:18:02 am
I believe there was a time when even UK riders were new on the PBP scene, had to learn the ropes etc. Once one or two have experience there is a snowball effect and off you go. Look at ACME, a few in 2015 being led by Tomsk and then a whole heap more (12ish) this time round, many relatively new riders (under two years) < this is the difference and it relates to participation; the more participations you can bank, or be around those who have experience, the better off you are. Or indeed watching films about previous editions. I would say that counts vastly more than the spreadsheets, electrics etc which don't make much of a difference either way. As for knowing French it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. I didn't speak a word of it beyond please and thank you. I am all for a wider net - next time more of those people will come back and finish and educate those around them. Was this not how Audax UK started? In that sense I don't think the DNF rate is particularly important, or rather that it might fluctuate with the experience gained by that country over the years. Corollary is that you shouldn't try to make flagship events 'easier'. PBP and LEL are direct experiences that you can't fake, that's what makes them valuable, I don't think anyone really beleives they can be offset with technology do they?

New PBP countries seem to go one of two ways regarding DNFs as time goes on. Audax UK and Audax Australia started off amongst of the lowest DNF rates for sizeable national groups, which gradually increased over time as each country’s numbers have increased. Increased experience doesn't seem to reduce DNF rates as the net widens for these countries; probably the case for the majority of countries with fairly large contingents at PBP. The DNF rate overall for PBP seems to be increasing over time.

The converse has been true for Audax India Randonneurs and Audax Japan, with high initial DNF rates that might be staying about the same or dropping somewhat over time.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Jack on September 30, 2019, 10:06:01 am
How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgJQ7KSSkwo

What date/time was 00:00:00 in the real world?

I don't think I can figure out where I would feature in that representation without knowing that.

Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: yanto on September 30, 2019, 10:14:46 am
Looks like it's normalised (correct term?) so in effect it shows everybody setting off at the same time.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Wycombewheeler on September 30, 2019, 10:22:42 am

I hadn't thought to compare that with my times before;
I managed to drop behind the bulge, then overtake it, then drop behind, then overtake it again and repeat until finishing just ahead of it.
Which explains why there was only 2 controls I thought were absolutely carnage, Carhaix on the way out and Mortagne on the return, I appear to have ridden in the bulge between Villaines and Mortagne but slept less.

I really like that graphic. It would be good to see it based on the time of day, rather than time on the road, to give the numbers at each control at any one point in time. It looks like I spent pretty much my whole ride in the bulge, varying slightly but usually just ahead of the biggest peak.
That's what I was referring to. Checking average performance is fine but it doesn't tell me what to expect at controls. I know when I got to Carhaix at 20.30 on monday it was fine, but when I woke up at 03.00 it was carnage with bodies everywhere.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Ernsth on September 30, 2019, 10:29:38 am
This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TV6Qkq5brk
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 30, 2019, 10:41:23 am
Oddly enough it tells exactly the same story.
I must have been sleeping on a different schedule...

Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Jack on September 30, 2019, 11:51:14 am
Looks like it's normalised (correct term?) so in effect it shows everybody setting off at the same time.

Thanks yanto. That makes sense of it.

This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TV6Qkq5brk

Fab. So with the first video I can work out how fast I was relative to everyone else and with this second when I was at controls with the most other riders.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: mzjo on September 30, 2019, 01:36:38 pm
There are two kinds of France nowadays in regard to PBP.
You have the randonneuring heartlands, Bretagne, North and Ile de France. Riders there are aware of the changes in PBP, they do their brevets every year and keep on top of things. They know that PBP is an international event.
Rides from rural France outside of the 3 mentioned area's. They still think that PBP is as 25 years ago, start their preparations in march of the PBP year and were awakened very rude shortly after that. Many of them don't ride brevets in between PBP years.
Their reactions on the French forum are wildly different. The first group completely agrees with the pre-qualification rules and has prepared for them. The 2nd group feels that French riders are entitled to a start spot and complain because they 'couldn't' do BRM's in 2018. When I suggested that they could also organise themselves I was met with a digital blank stare.

in contrast, the crowds in Bretagne react according to their area. They are fully aware that PBP is an international event and enjoy it.

I will have to speak for the non-randoneering rest a bit. To put things in context the Haute Vienne is the smallest (or at least one of the smallest) Codeps in the FFCT (yes we still believe in the FFCT and the Ligue de Limousin even though to many outsiders neither still exists, a bit like the village of Asterix!) Currently the Codep87 probably counts a total of one experienced (past PBP finisher, currently still at about that level) member in its clubs, and he isn't interested in doing BRMs. The rider actually riding (and organising) long distance BRMs is not a member of a Codep87 club! There are riders who did PBP 20 years ago; they don't feel inclined to get involved any longer with the justification that things have changed and they no longer have the level necessary to offer advice. I would think that this is a situation quite common in the France Profonde outside the randoneering heartland. Since there is no experience in BRMs there are very few BRMs. A rider wanting to do PBP qualification has a choice of perhaps 2 SR series (because there are more organised during PBP years) before needing to do ridiculous mileages (not ridiculous is a round trip of 300-400kms sometimes). There is usually a limited choice of week-ends during march/april for doing a 200 to start with. Outside PBP years the choice is even more limited. This means that in my part of the world at least the pool of riders likely to do long distance BRMs will more usually come from the UFOLEP sportive clubs (who have a younger age structure and harder riders). FFCT clubs in this part of the world typically organise randonnées of 60-100kms to be finished in time for apéros at lunchtime or evening. Not very conducive to success at PBP! I think probably the falling french participation at PBP (and the DNF rate) could easily be explained by the aging structure of the clubs (and the Fédération) and the shortage of experienced riders, a lot of PBP riders in this part of the world seem to want to do it once to tick the box in their lifeplans. It is a cyclical thing which may well get reversed in the next decade (when the old school have all died off!).

To be honest, since Ivo's visit here in june I have had more contact with Jérome (who organises his SR series through a UFOLEP club!) and we may feel inspired to try to offer a bit more. I am of the opinion that a first step is to offer 200s more regularly throughout the year to keep the interest going and between us this may well happen (although convincing my club will undoubtedly not be possible; they are reducing activity, not increasing it.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Nebulous on September 30, 2019, 05:27:29 pm
This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TV6Qkq5brk

Thanks very much for that. It looks like I'm Mr average. I spent my whole time just about at the peak of the bulge. So when other people are speaking about 'carnage' I don't have a comparison, because that was the whole event for me. It probably explains why I spent two hours queuing for toilets and five queuing for food.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Jack on October 01, 2019, 12:26:15 pm
... It looks like I'm Mr average ...

I also was very close to the global peak for the whole ride. Sometimes a touch ahead, sometimes a touch behind. For both the relative and absolute representations.

I'm actually pretty happy with that performance!
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Hofnar on October 01, 2019, 06:57:23 pm
... It looks like I'm Mr average ...

I also was very close to the global peak for the whole ride. Sometimes a touch ahead, sometimes a touch behind. For both the relative and absolute representations.

I'm actually pretty happy with that performance!

My goal was to avoid the bulge. Didn't have a correct idea as to my position though. But seems I managed very well, graph explains why I felt lonely at times and didn't see another cyclist for at least half an hour.
Title: Re: Controls + Distances
Post by: Exit Stage Left on October 01, 2019, 09:55:32 pm
The best thing about being supported is that you get to be in the bulge without being affected by it.