Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: ian on September 12, 2019, 08:35:29 am

Title: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on September 12, 2019, 08:35:29 am
I was reading the other day about the terrible crash in Berlin where an out-of-control Porsche behemoth killed four and prompted calls to ban these oversized, overpowered cars from German city centres. And at the weekend I saw a woman in tears because she couldn't extract her Range Rover from a parking space. Up the road, someone was doing an 82-point turn trying to get some other variety of SUV into their paved over front garden without taking out the garden wall (that had already lost a chunk from a previously failed attempt). Last night, one passed me doing probably twice the 30 mph speed limit. I would like to say that's unusual. Every commute I seem to see more and more of these vehicles – the growth presumably from easy, low-interest financing. That's a bubble ripe to pop if interest rates rise.

I presume the main urge to buy these things is status and ego-inflation – though given every other car seems to be one and it's not like people are actually paying for them. In the supermarket car park the other week, I had a double-take, some of taken one of those horrid modern swollen Minis and bloated it further into an SUV version. Honestly, you've never seen an uglier vehicle. I'm still not sure I did see it, or whether it was a horrible paroxysm of my imagination. The sort of vehicle you're damned to drive down an endless boulevard in Hell in. With a radio that only tunes to smooth jazz and the inevitable screaming.

But on a serious point, the energy these behemoths impart in a crash is awful. And they have a secondary issue, and that's they make their drivers feel invulnerable, and they're the car of choice for people who think they have something to prove and it empowers them as bullies. And while cars generally may have got more efficient and emissions fallen, that's just been offset by them getting bigger.

I doubt the Germans will be successful in banning them, though I wish them luck. They're completely unsuitable for the road unless you need an actual truck or to drive off-road. I have several friends who have them, it seems a middle-class, middle-age thing. They're not even that comfortable once you've clambered into them, overstuffed as furniture showrooms.

I think in a decade or two, they'll be one of the things people boggle about, really they drive those?

Or I hope. I'd ban them. Or maybe fly around south London in an A10 Warthog and deliver my own justice via an extensive range of ground-to-air munitions and 4000 rounds per minute of sweet, depleted uranium sentiment.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Jaded on September 12, 2019, 09:04:30 am
Saw a used Rancid Rover for sale at an event I was at last weekend. £125,000 used.  :o

And when you look inside these things, it is only the top of the range that can get four adults inside, and none of them have interesting usefully sized boots. (The vehicles, not the people).
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Greenbank on September 12, 2019, 09:24:12 am
...
But on a serious point, the energy these behemoths impart in a crash is awful. And they have a secondary issue, and that's they make their drivers feel invulnerable...

It's the kinetic energy arms race.

A silly trope for sure but if you're driving Tilly and Tarquin to/from their school every day you don't want to be in a flimsy Nissan Micra if you get involved in an accident, you want to be in something that comes off least worst. That proliferates and soon the streets are awash with them.

"Have you seen Jemima's parents' car? Simply awful! How irresponsible to drive her around in a Y-reg Citroen Saxo. I don't think we should let Ptolemy be friends with her otherwise he might end up having to get a lift in that terrible thing!"

It's also a status/prestige thing.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 12, 2019, 09:55:50 am
Thing is, the size/protection thing largely died shortly after euroNCAP came in.
It's why modern small cars are quite a bit wider than they used to be, because you can't get the side impact stars from a flimsy door.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 12, 2019, 10:31:25 am
That might be correct but the psychological feeling is bigger = more protective. I think Greenbank has hit one of if not the biggest reasons for the popularity of this type of car. Though as always in popularity, a lot of it is simply fashion.

And it's not just Tilly and Tarquin nowadays, it's <insert stereotypical working class name here> too.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 12, 2019, 10:38:18 am
They're completely unsuitable for the road unless you need an actual truck or to drive off-road.
They're not trucks, they don't have much load space, as Jaded's pointed out. And most of them only look like off-roaders. In addition to which, what do people drive on dirt roads? My parents-in-law lived on the edge of a village, surrounded by forest, a kilometre from the nearest paved road, with snow settled for several months of the year. In the distant past they had driven a "Big Fiat", then a clapped out Wartburg, then a late-80s Audio 80. All their neighbours drove similar. And, with appropriate tyres in winter, no one had any trouble on churned up dirt roads.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: trekker12 on September 12, 2019, 10:59:45 am
It's not just about perceived safety. The 'mini SUV' or whatever fancy marketing term they want to call it is higher up, it provides a perception of being able to see more - which is part of the massive pillar issue created by the NCAP thing - but also you don't have to stoop down to get into the thing. It's apparently more dignified to step up into your vehicle than it is to bend down into it. The boot is higher so you can lift out the tiny amount of shopping you can fit into it without generating a bad back - because you have never learnt to lift things properly - and the children can be lifted into the massive booster seat the law requires, again without stooping.

None of this was a problem when my parents bought cars and I'll never ever ever buy one but the car manufacturers want to tell you it is.

They are all crap off-road because they have the wrong wheels and tyres fitted and firm suspension because proper off-road suspension makes the children in the back queasy as it wobbles around all the time and it has to be really firm because the centre of gravity that high up creates a pendulum effect and the body wobbles around even more than a sensible height car.

I've never been off-road in a SMBT but have done lots of rallying (and other mucking around) in either standard or highly modified hatchbacks and saloons. With the right tyres fitted most people fail to understand what is actually possible even with the most basic suspension. The number of times I hear 'I needed an off-roader because it snows (one day a year here in Suffolk) and I get stuck in my drive' - no, buy winter tyres and learn proper clutch control!
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on September 12, 2019, 11:12:44 am
I had a Suburu hatchback in the US – in New England where they have actual snow – with snow tyres it was fine. It was traditional on the first snow day to count the SUVs in the roadside ditch as their drivers assumed that, given their vehicle, they could ignore the white stuff.

The problem with the safety angle is that you're likely to crash into another oversized car, and that's more kinetic energy looking for a place to go.

I didn't mention the antisocial angle either, that they're designed to be intimidating to other road users, doubly so for pedestrians and cyclists.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: trekker12 on September 12, 2019, 11:16:38 am

I didn't mention the antisocial angle either, that they're designed to be intimidating to other road users, doubly so for pedestrians and cyclists.

This, in spades!
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: hellymedic on September 12, 2019, 11:35:33 am
Tilly, Tarquin and Jemima may only total 50kg in weight between them but their protective child seats require a HUGE vehicle to accommodate them.

(Tilly is 2 and weighs 12kg, Tarquin is 4 and weighs 16kg, Jemima is 7 and weighs 22kg).

Only the pixies on yacf approximate to 50kg and would occupy around the seat width of a single Small Child as they don't need all the padding of kiddy seats.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: grams on September 12, 2019, 11:50:53 am
Unpopular opinion: These things are only marginally bigger than normal cars, and just about all of the criticisms of them applies equally to any car.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 12, 2019, 11:56:12 am
That might be correct but the psychological feeling is bigger = more protective. I think Greenbank has hit one of if not the biggest reasons for the popularity of this type of car. Though as always in popularity, a lot of it is simply fashion.

And it's not just Tilly and Tarquin nowadays, it's <insert stereotypical working class name here> too.

You know my point then, it's a psychological fallacy, I just didn't say it directly.

They're completely unsuitable for the road unless you need an actual truck or to drive off-road.
They're not trucks, they don't have much load space, as Jaded's pointed out. And most of them only look like off-roaders. In addition to which, what do people drive on dirt roads? My parents-in-law lived on the edge of a village, surrounded by forest, a kilometre from the nearest paved road, with snow settled for several months of the year. In the distant past they had driven a "Big Fiat", then a clapped out Wartburg, then a late-80s Audio 80. All their neighbours drove similar. And, with appropriate tyres in winter, no one had any trouble on churned up dirt roads.

Look at old Volvos and SAABs; built with Swedish forest gravel roads and lots of snow in mind.
You don't need huge ground clearance on those sorts of roads, just a bit more than you need on a motorway.
You only huge ground clearance when you re genuinely going off road, i.e. into fields with a bunch of sheep in a trailer on the back.

I've never been off-road in a SMBT but have done lots of rallying (and other mucking around) in either standard or highly modified hatchbacks and saloons. With the right tyres fitted most people fail to understand what is actually possible even with the most basic suspension. The number of times I hear 'I needed an off-roader because it snows (one day a year here in Suffolk) and I get stuck in my drive' - no, buy winter tyres and learn proper clutch control!

The current FIA homologation list (what you're allowed to race in international competition) is published on their website,

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/toutesvoitures_02.08.2019.pdf

the fact that everything in Groups A and N are normal sized saloon/hatchback/estates and that Group T is Defender/Land Cruiser style off roaders says a lot.

I also hadn't realized the 1.7x multiplier was still applied to forced induction engines.

I had a Suburu hatchback in the US – in New England where they have actual snow – with snow tyres it was fine. It was traditional on the first snow day to count the SUVs in the roadside ditch as their drivers assumed that, given their vehicle, they could ignore the white stuff.

I've got a hothatch with stupidly low ratio 6 speed gearbox; while I do have to shift off in 3rd in snow, and 2nd when its wet it still manages to work considerably better than I expected on winter tyres.
Not as well as the SAAB did right enough but...

And it's not just Tilly and Tarquin nowadays, it's <insert stereotypical working class name here> too.

What about Farquhar?
They usually are little Farquhars
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: rafletcher on September 12, 2019, 12:03:00 pm
Unpopular opinion: These things are only marginally bigger than normal cars, and just about all of the criticisms of them applies equally to any car.

And not very accurate. Many many cars have a smaller footprint that a full sized Range Rover - although it's true that a Mondeo/Galaxy covers as much real estate. They'll also accommodate as many, if not more, passengers and luggage, and have a far lower mass in the event of an accident, without offering less protection to the occupants. A marvel of modern engineering is just how mangled a car can be - even down to engines coming out - and the passengers walk away.

Our neighbours have one, it's used to take two small children to school. It used to park in their drive (which is between two houses) until the lady driver stopped as she had difficulty doing so, and kept damaging the (very expensive) wing mirrors.  It's now parked, most of the day, in the road in front of their house. This is a single narrow road through a linear village, and the nett result is that a lot of vehicles (refuse, heating oil delivery, John Lewis etc,) end up putting one set of wheels on the grass verge opposite and ruining that.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on September 12, 2019, 12:10:21 pm
Tilly, Tarquin and Jemima may only total 50kg in weight between them but their protective child seats require a HUGE vehicle to accommodate them.

Exacerbated by car inflation meaning that modern cars are full of plastic, rather than useful space for fitting stuff in like they had up to the early 90s.

I also think there's a psychological factor, particularly amongst female drivers, that's rooted in fear of being lower than the surrounding intimidating vehicles, rather than any actual aggression.  (Some anecdotal correlation with being appalled by the lowness of recumbent bicycles.)


Unpopular opinion: These things are only marginally bigger than normal cars, and just about all of the criticisms of them applies equally to any car.

Being a fan of Fully Charged I've been exposed to rather more wanky Johnny Smith car reviews than I normally would, and have noticed that the terms "SUV" and "Crossover" often get applied to things that I would simply describe as a "Big Car", rather than anything with off-road aspirations.  (Case in point: Tesla Model X.  It looks like a normal modern car in photographs.  When you meet one it's enormous.)  Which isn't to say that they aren't tall enough to be a specific hazard to pedestrians, or have trouble fitting in roads and car parks.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Paul on September 12, 2019, 12:29:42 pm
Unpopular opinion: These things are only marginally bigger than normal cars, and just about all of the criticisms of them applies equally to any car.

And not very accurate. Many many cars have a smaller footprint that a full sized Range Rover - although it's true that a Mondeo/Galaxy covers as much real estate. They'll also accommodate as many, if not more, passengers and luggage...

Quite.

Just discovered (here: https://www.automobiledimension.com/) that my car (which is actually quite long for a saloon) is quite a bit smaller than a range rover but has the same boot space.

Range Rover: https://www.automobiledimension.com/models/land-rover/range-rover-2018

Seat Toledo: https://www.automobiledimension.com/models/seat/toledo-2012
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on September 12, 2019, 12:35:58 pm
Tilly, Tarquin and Jemima may only total 50kg in weight between them but their protective child seats require a HUGE vehicle to accommodate them.

(Tilly is 2 and weighs 12kg, Tarquin is 4 and weighs 16kg, Jemima is 7 and weighs 22kg).

Only the pixies on yacf approximate to 50kg and would occupy around the seat width of a single Small Child as they don't need all the padding of kiddy seats.

Though this often seems to be the claim, I don't think this is true, we've fitted a modern baby seat in a teensy Ford Ka and there was space for another (on the other hand, you can't fit a Brompton in the boot and a faff getting them in, but it's a very small car with no rear doors).

If you've ever been in an Audi Q7 (basically a squashed SUV), there's bugger-all actual room inside.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Basil on September 12, 2019, 12:37:54 pm
There appears to be a reverse Tardis effect with these newer battle ships.
I hired something huge (can't remember what it was called) for the transportation of several aged rellies at my uncle's funeral. I was astonished at how little room there was inside.

Eta.  Hmm. X posted with several people, it would seem.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 12, 2019, 12:38:21 pm
Cars have been getting generally wider and heavier since the early 80s at least but the growth in width seems to be mostly this century. Against that background, SUVs/SMBTs might be only a little wider and no longer than other cars but they are significantly heavier and much taller. Height might not seem important other than for the driver – after all, it doesn't take up more road space and they're not getting stuck under bridges – but in fact it's a detrimental road safety factor. A tall vehicle parked near a junction significantly reduces visibility. Obviously, this is a bigger factor the smaller you are, so children, old people and women (and recumbentists and sports car drivers, I presume) are more disadvantaged by it.

Vehicle height also has a social impact; it creates a barrier, literally, between one side of the street and the other, blocking sight and engagement.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on September 12, 2019, 12:43:20 pm
Some interesting numbers from the US:

https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/passenger-vehicle-occupants

Quote
The likelihood of crash death varies markedly among these vehicle types according to size. Small/light vehicles have less structure and size to absorb crash energy, so crash forces on occupants will be higher. People in lighter vehicles are at a disadvantage in collisions with heavier vehicles. Footnote1 Pickups and SUVs are proportionally more likely than cars to be in fatal single-vehicle crashes, especially rollovers. However, pickups and SUVs generally are heavier than cars, so occupant deaths in SUVs and pickups are less likely to occur in multiple-vehicle crashes.

More SUVs and pickups that roll over too easily = more rollover deaths:

Quote
Rollover crashes accounted for 45 percent of occupant deaths in SUVs and 41 percent in pickups in 2017, compared with 22 percent in cars.

I don't think it is just SUVs that roll over more easily, it seems to be more frequent in modern small cars.

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: rafletcher on September 12, 2019, 12:45:30 pm
If you've ever been in an Audi Q7 (basically a squashed SUV), there's bugger-all actual room inside.

Indeed, my A4 cost considerably less than a Q5, and had more usable space.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on September 12, 2019, 12:52:14 pm
The rollover effect is another reason it was common to see them upturned like metallic tortoises in US roadside ditches.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: grams on September 12, 2019, 12:53:15 pm
And not very accurate. Many many cars have a smaller footprint that a full sized Range Rover

But very few SMBTs are Range Rovers these days. The “behemoth” from the original post was a Porsche Macan, which is not much different in size and weight to a Mondeo/Toledo/whatever.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Ham on September 12, 2019, 01:02:43 pm
The other emperor's clothes factor sitting alongside behemoth bloat is the astounding way manufacturers sell their mass produced output as "exclusive".
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: T42 on September 12, 2019, 01:04:44 pm

I didn't mention the antisocial angle either, that they're designed to be intimidating to other road users, doubly so for pedestrians and cyclists.

This, in spades!

Especially in a convoy of four, all shiny black with darkened windows and Russian CD markings, moving out onto the autoroute in a block.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Paul on September 12, 2019, 01:09:47 pm
And not very accurate. Many many cars have a smaller footprint that a full sized Range Rover

But very few SMBTs are Range Rovers these days. The “behemoth” from the original post was a Porsche Macan, which is not much different in size and weight to a Mondeo/Toledo/whatever.

https://www.automobiledimension.com/models/porsche/macan-2019

20 cm longer and wider than my Toledo. That's a lot in a parking space.

I can't see the weights.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on September 12, 2019, 01:11:43 pm
And not very accurate. Many many cars have a smaller footprint that a full sized Range Rover

But very few SMBTs are Range Rovers these days. The “behemoth” from the original post was a Porsche Macan, which is not much different in size and weight to a Mondeo/Toledo/whatever.

Well, let's say all oversized, overpowered modern cars. SUVs are neither sports nor utility vehicles, after all.

Range Rovers of various flavours seem to be breeding fastest at the moment.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: vorsprung on September 12, 2019, 01:22:10 pm
some car weights

normal cars
vw golf 1211 kg
fiat 500 499
bmw 520 1615

SUVs and chelsea tractors
porsche Cayenne 2060
range rover sport 2144
jeep grand cherokee 2948
toyota land cruiser 3349
mercedes benz gle 2235
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on September 12, 2019, 01:24:46 pm
Does that mean you can't fill a Landcruiser with stuff unless you've got a special licence?  Perhaps that's the endgame, if the lack of parking room isn't?
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 12, 2019, 01:26:20 pm
Compare with the original SUV, the Willys Jeep:
Quote
Wheelbase : 203.2 cm or 80 inches
Length : 332.7 cm or 130.98 inches
Width : 157.5 cm or 62.01 inches
Height : 182.9 cm or 72.01 inches

Curb Weight : 1113 kg OR 2454 lbs
Weight-Power Output Ratio : 20.6 kg/hp
https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Willys-Overland/23043/Willys-Overland-Jeep-MB.html
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on September 12, 2019, 01:29:48 pm
A Range Rover seems to come out, on average, at 2,500 kg. Not including the weight of the driver, which tends to be substantial.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: vorsprung on September 12, 2019, 01:33:43 pm
Presumably the amount of kinetic energy to kill someone would be lower with a big vehicle

Usually the figure quoted is that at 30mph there is quite a high kill rate, but this is reduced as speed goes down: so a 20 mph limit will help a lot

Someone better at maths and physics can work it out properly but when I did various sums I came to the conclusion in a collision that a 1 tonne (1000Kg) car at 50kph is the same as a 2 tonne car at 31 kph

So reducing the speed limit to 20mph won't help if you are unfortunate enough to be hit by one of these
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: grams on September 12, 2019, 01:53:04 pm
That would be the correct maths for if the vehicle was brought to a stop by hitting you, having imparted all of its kinetic energy into your body.

What more likely happens is you go flying and the vehicle's speed is barely affected. It only imparts a tiny proportion of its KE into you, so it kind of doesn't matter if it's 1 ton or 2 tons behind it.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: DuncanM on September 12, 2019, 01:58:11 pm
I suspect the fairest way to compare vehicles, would be comparing small car with small "crossover", and so on. I would bet money that the sizes are comparable because they are basically the same car eg a Nissan Juke is a Micra on stilts. On that basis, the correct comparison for a Range Rover (5m x 1.99m) would be a BMW 7 series (5.12m x 1.90m).

The only argument I can make for a "crossover" is that a higher seat is useful for people with limited mobility. My mother in law would not be able to get into our car as she has bad hips, but she can get into their quashquai.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Diver300 on September 12, 2019, 02:28:50 pm
some car weights

normal cars
vw golf 1211 kg
fiat 500 499
bmw 520 1615

SUVs and chelsea tractors
porsche Cayenne 2060
range rover sport 2144
jeep grand cherokee 2948
toyota land cruiser 3349
mercedes benz gle 2235

The current Fiat 500 is about 1000 kg kerb weight, which is about the norm for small cars now.
The 1957 - 1975 Fiat 500 had a kerb weight of 499 kg.

I would't describe a 44+ year old car with a 2-cylinder engine of less than 600 cc as "normal".


Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Beardy on September 12, 2019, 02:53:21 pm
I have a ‘Biggy’ (as #1 son refers to my Mini Paceman). I bought it because I like the look and coming from a series of people carries, which I no longer need, I couldn’t face being low down. I’m a big chap in any case, and many cars, not just small ones, are awkward to get in and out of and damned uncomfortable to drive. I also like the extra shoulder room it affords without the need to go for a much larger car. It’s our only car so it has to fill the long journeys on motorways role as well as the local runabout role. So all in all, it’s just about perfect for our needs.
I’m really not sure what I’ll get next because Mini have stopped manufacturing them, and there’s not really much I fancy in my price range. Given how often I change my cars though, I don’t think, it’s going to be an issue for a while yet. 
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: rafletcher on September 12, 2019, 02:59:05 pm
That would be the correct maths for if the vehicle was brought to a stop by hitting you, having imparted all of its kinetic energy into your body.

What more likely happens is you go flying and the vehicle's speed is barely affected. It only imparts a tiny proportion of its KE into you, so it kind of doesn't matter if it's 1 ton or 2 tons behind it.

I think I'd be better off rolling over the low bonnet of a conventional saloon / hatchback, that being clouted by the slab front of a Range Rover.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Paul on September 12, 2019, 03:00:11 pm
That would be the correct maths for if the vehicle was brought to a stop by hitting you, having imparted all of its kinetic energy into your body.

What more likely happens is you go flying and the vehicle's speed is barely affected. It only imparts a tiny proportion of its KE into you, so it kind of doesn't matter if it's 1 ton or 2 tons behind it.
Well, I find that hard to believe (but admit to no expertise) and I know which one I’d rather be hit by.

The other factor for targets in this comparison is the height of the vehicle. The higher up the impact the more damaging it can be, I understand.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: matthew on September 12, 2019, 03:01:59 pm
I refer you back to the issues with Marlow bridge and the HGV induced damage. This resulted in stricter enforcement of the 3.5 tonne weight limit and some very irate X5 drivers who got turned back or fined.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63751.msg2225555#msg2225555 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63751.msg2225555#msg2225555)

And more recently:

https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/17637098.56-drivers-slapped-with-fines-for-driving-overweight-vehicles-across-marlow-bridge/ (https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/17637098.56-drivers-slapped-with-fines-for-driving-overweight-vehicles-across-marlow-bridge/)

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on September 12, 2019, 03:03:31 pm
Another thing, of course, is that while they may be safer for the occupants, they're not so for other road users – and given their intimidating nature, discourage other users from the roads and pavements. Which might, for the wrong reasons, keep the death and injury rates down.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on September 12, 2019, 03:14:44 pm
Another thing, of course, is that while they may be safer for the occupants, they're not so for other road users – and given their intimidating nature, discourage other users from the roads and pavements. Which might, for the wrong reasons, keep the death and injury rates down.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/28/pedestrian-safety-crisis-deaths-ghsa/2993321002/

Quote
Pedestrian deaths are up 51.5 percent since hitting a low of 4,109 in 2009, according to GHSA. They now make up 16 percent of all road deaths, up from 12 percent in 2009.

Quote
The GHSA reported that the number of pedestrian deaths involving SUVs increased by 50 percent from 2013 through 2017, while the number of pedestrian deaths caused by passenger cars increased by 30 percent over that same period. That reflects booming sales of SUVs and the fact that pedestrians are much less likely to survive the impact of an SUV.

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: rafletcher on September 12, 2019, 03:19:52 pm

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.

They also exceed the weight limits as stated in all the car parks in our local town - intended to prevent commercial vehicles parking there. No-one is enforcing that at present
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on September 12, 2019, 03:23:51 pm
some car weights

normal cars
vw golf 1211 kg
fiat 500 499
bmw 520 1615

SUVs and chelsea tractors
porsche Cayenne 2060
range rover sport 2144
jeep grand cherokee 2948
toyota land cruiser 3349
mercedes benz gle 2235

That is bonkers.
We have a citroen xsara picasso. It is 'large inside'; we have moved sofas with it. Last sunday I observed that the 5.2m kayak on the roof rack barely overhung the ends.

Kerb weight 1300kg
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: mike on September 12, 2019, 04:50:07 pm
I've spent some time driving a friends volvo xc90 and it's terrifying until you get used to the momentum - 2.5 tonnes, a big engine and an automatic gearbox means almost no engine braking. It's also stupidly wide and almost impossible to park. She bought it because 'nobody has died in an XC90'

It did take 2 adults & 4 big teenagers and a weeks worth of surfing gear to cornwall with almost no complaints though.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 12, 2019, 05:47:14 pm

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.

They also exceed the weight limits as stated in all the car parks in our local town - intended to prevent commercial vehicles parking there. No-one is enforcing that at present

What is the signage? There are signs for
All vehicle weight restriction
(https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/55b9ffe8e5274a151e00002c/sign-giving-order-no-vehicles-max-gross-weight.jpg)

All vehicle Vehicle Maximum Axle mass restriction
(https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/images/1/19/Axle_weight_limit_sign_-_Coppermine_-_18481.jpg)

Commercial vehicle weight restriction.
(http://safetybox.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x650/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/r/2r119_1.jpg)

For the later the vehicles class is important.
i.e. A motorhome or an SUV are not normally registered as commercial vehicles
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 12, 2019, 06:16:40 pm
My sole 4 wheeled vehicle is a 1989 Land Rover 127 Tipper. It weighs 2.4 tonnes unladen. It's about 2 metres wide. Like all proper Land Rovers, it's sheer misery to drive, but kids love them for some weird reason.

It's surprising that there are very few proper working 4WD vehicles on general sale. The basic chassis of many of the vehicles would seem to be suitable, but they aren't offered. The big Toyota Hi Luxes are better than many, as they have more room in the back of the double cab versions.

Most of the one ton pickups in the world are made in Thailand, and the rear legroom reflects that. The big Ford Rangers are from South Africa too, and they've taken the utility market, now that Land Rover don't do the Defender.

The weight for the Land Cruiser upthread is fully laden, The kerb weight is lower. Land Cruisers are pretty capable, and are ideal if you've got a digger to deliver across a field, as they can tow 3 tonnes with ease. My Land Rover is rated to tow 3.5 tonnes, but it is a light truck. I will always choose to park it next to the most 'macho' 4WD I can find in the supermarket car park.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: nicknack on September 12, 2019, 06:25:10 pm
I may have a mini SUV. It's a Fiat 500L. It's a vehicle. It's quite useful but not remotely sporty (1400cc). It is considerably larger than the old 500s but it ain’t exactly huge. It's the same length and width as the car it replaced - a Peugeot 307 - but has a higher roof. It also manages to have more room inside.
I don't think it's very intimidating.
I quite like it.
So there.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: rafletcher on September 12, 2019, 08:19:29 pm

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.

They also exceed the weight limits as stated in all the car parks in our local town - intended to prevent commercial vehicles parking there. No-one is enforcing that at present

What is the signage? There are signs for


It’s just in the text t’s & c’s on the signs listing the charges.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: matthew on September 13, 2019, 11:03:06 am

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.

They also exceed the weight limits as stated in all the car parks in our local town - intended to prevent commercial vehicles parking there. No-one is enforcing that at present

What is the signage? There are signs for
All vehicle weight restriction
(https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/55b9ffe8e5274a151e00002c/sign-giving-order-no-vehicles-max-gross-weight.jpg)


Marlow bridge is one of these 3T limit
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 13, 2019, 11:27:30 am
What I actually want is a 130 inch wheelbase version of the Troller T4. That's a proper off roader made in Brazil, based on the Ford Ranger, so parts would be easy.
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-ford-troller-t4-is-a-tough-and-plucky-brazilian-4x4-we-need-in-the-uk/
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 13, 2019, 11:44:14 am
It’s just in the text t’s & c’s on the signs listing the charges.

Ah so illegal to park but not drive through!
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: trekker12 on September 13, 2019, 12:54:13 pm
I may have a mini SUV. It's a Fiat 500L. It's a vehicle. It's quite useful but not remotely sporty (1400cc). It is considerably larger than the old 500s but it ain’t exactly huge. It's the same length and width as the car it replaced - a Peugeot 307 - but has a higher roof. It also manages to have more room inside.
I don't think it's very intimidating.
I quite like it.
So there.

To be fair, a car like that is certainly not intimidating. I'd rather have you behind me than a BMW, Mercedes or Audi saloon, all of which will be bigger and heavier. It's a bit taller and longer than a normal Fiat 500 and the large Mini is similar. The main thread which has drifted slightly referred to the giant tanks that seem to be required by some. I'm looking outside the office window at the huge Volvo X70 with a slab of a grill my boss drives. I think it's more that type of vehicle the OP was concerned with.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Randy_Butternubs on September 14, 2019, 09:46:25 pm
...
But on a serious point, the energy these behemoths impart in a crash is awful. And they have a secondary issue, and that's they make their drivers feel invulnerable...

It's the kinetic energy arms race.

A silly trope for sure but if you're driving Tilly and Tarquin to/from their school every day you don't want to be in a flimsy Nissan Micra if you get involved in an accident, you want to be in something that comes off least worst. That proliferates and soon the streets are awash with them.

"Have you seen Jemima's parents' car? Simply awful! How irresponsible to drive her around in a Y-reg Citroen Saxo. I don't think we should let Ptolemy be friends with her otherwise he might end up having to get a lift in that terrible thing!"

It's also a status/prestige thing.

This exactly. Someone I know made some backhanded comment to a friend for driving his family around in a Toyota Yaris; something about not putting the safety of his family first. This guy drives his family around in some massive Volvo tank or other.

Unfortunately, due to the extremely high price of these vehicles he can't afford a good one and he can't afford to maintain it properly. They are constantly having major failures, including brake failure on the motorway. You can't put a price on safety though  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 16, 2019, 12:28:39 pm
Quote
A reported 25,000 people turned up to protest Frankfurt's IAA car show yesterday, with cyclists blocking the entrance


Sand im Getriebe, an environmental protest group, say an estimated 25,000 people turned out to protest against the German car industry at the International Motor Show in Frankfurt at the weekend, with protestors on bikes blocking the entrance on masse. With sales of large cars such as SUVs on the rise in Germany, Sand im Getriebe say on their website(link is external) they are demonstrating against the damage caused to the environment by motor vehicles, and are campaigning for "car-free cities, more space for walking and cycling as well as developed and free public transport."


MonkeyWrenchGang
@M_WrenchGang
The German branch #SandImGetriebe (Sand in the engine) seems inspired by Edward Abbey.

25.000 people took over the roads and blocked the entrances of the Frankfurter Car Show.

Yeah! #Monkeywrenching the machine!


111
7:32 PM - Sep 15, 2019
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49 people are talking about this
The Frankfurt car show blockage was the latest in a number of protests that have taken place in Germany recently against pollution and the damage to the environment/danger posed by large vehicles such as SUVs. Berlin mayor Stephan von Dassel recently tweeted(link is external) that "such tank-like vehicles (SUVs) have no place on our streets" after a driver ploughed into a crowd of pedestrians, killing four. It's also been reported that anarchists have been burning luxury SUVs around Berlin in protest.
https://road.cc/content/news/266597-live-blog-australian-cyclist-dies-trying-escape-attack-swooping-magpie-driver

I haven't seen this reported anywhere else, but maybe I haven't been looking. As a titchy side point, I don't think this is really Edward Abbey-style; if that were the case, they would literally be putting Sand im Getriebe (sand in the works), or cutting things down and blowing them up.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: phil w on September 16, 2019, 01:41:42 pm


This guy drives his family around in some massive Volvo tank or other.


In other words sticking two fingers up at the safety of others.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Redlight on September 16, 2019, 03:26:33 pm


This guy drives his family around in some massive Volvo tank or other.


In other words sticking two fingers up at the safety of others.

Not if he is driving safely. The ones sticking two fingers up are the ones who drive their huge cars as if they were auditioning for an oversized remake of The Italian Job. Setting aside the enivronmental impacts, of which we are all aware, there's nothing inherently unsafe about driving an oversized vehicle. 
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: perpetual dan on September 16, 2019, 06:13:01 pm
Although as soon as they fail to be perfect, or have to respond to the unexpected a wider, heavier, higher car leaves less space to work with, more energy in the impact and poorer handling. Or was that your point?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 16, 2019, 07:29:10 pm
We've got lots these big powerful SUVs in the Ribble Valley. That's a big centre for little complexes of barn conversion/ farmhouses. So at the end of each long approach drive there will be three of them. They do get real weather, and the owners have high-powered jobs in nearby cities and towns, so there's an argument for them. They are seen as vulgar though, anyone with taste has an Audi Allroad, or a Subaru. But they are good for towing horse boxes.

As it's also the real countryside, there are also milk lorries, and they really do take no prisoners.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on September 16, 2019, 08:01:42 pm
an oversized remake of The Italian Job

They did that in 2003.  It was shit.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: mattc on September 16, 2019, 08:30:16 pm
We've got lots these big powerful SUVs in the Ribble Valley. That's a big centre for little complexes of barn conversion/ farmhouses. So at the end of each long approach drive there will be three of them. They do get real weather, and the owners have high-powered jobs in nearby cities and towns, so there's an argument for them. They are seen as vulgar though, anyone with taste has an Audi Allroad, or a Subaru. But they are good for towing horse boxes.

Sounds exactly like the Henley-on-Thames area. real weather? yup, usually several frosty mornings every winter.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Redlight on September 16, 2019, 10:02:43 pm
Although as soon as they fail to be perfect, or have to respond to the unexpected a wider, heavier, higher car leaves less space to work with, more energy in the impact and poorer handling. Or was that your point?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

It was. They have to be driven with care - but so does a tractor  ;)
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on September 16, 2019, 10:28:25 pm
Yes, but there's no emphasis on care because there's no need to be, these vehicles are designed to encourage the perception (real or not) of invulnerability. That's, in part, how they are marketed.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on September 16, 2019, 11:01:43 pm
Most of my off-road driving was done in youthful driving days New South Wales, whenever I ventured beyond the Black Stump, where even the main highways were gravel roads.  All done in a Datsun 120Y (Nissan Sunny) with 110 (4 1/4inch) tyres and rear wheel drive.  If I recall correctly it weighed about 800Kg or 1/3 of the typical Chelsea Behemoth. 

There was one particular occasion where I crested a rise and hit a patch of soft gravel at speed and ended up going sideways.  The vehicle's light weight and fortunate reflexes had me back on a straight line after an impressive fishtail.  I suspect a larger, heavier, and taller vehicle would have used its extra momentum to send me rolling into the hefty gum trees on the left or right. 
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 17, 2019, 12:25:28 am
We've got lots these big powerful SUVs in the Ribble Valley. That's a big centre for little complexes of barn conversion/ farmhouses. So at the end of each long approach drive there will be three of them. They do get real weather, and the owners have high-powered jobs in nearby cities and towns, so there's an argument for them. They are seen as vulgar though, anyone with taste has an Audi Allroad, or a Subaru. But they are good for towing horse boxes.

Sounds exactly like the Henley-on-Thames area. real weather? yup, usually several frosty mornings every winter.

Admittedly we are in the Ribble Valley constituency, rather than the district, until the next election at least. But Ribble Valley tops out at about 1,400 feet in terms of mountain passes. There'll be some idiot with a job in Lancaster who bought a house in Summer the wrong side of one of those. We live in the bit that's about 75 feet above sea-level, a mile from the M6/M65/M61, so we have little sympathy, although we are deeply empathic, obviously.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ElyDave on September 24, 2019, 08:59:21 am
I've spent some time driving a friends volvo xc90 and it's terrifying until you get used to the momentum - 2.5 tonnes, a big engine and an automatic gearbox means almost no engine braking. It's also stupidly wide and almost impossible to park. She bought it because 'nobody has died in an XC90'

It did take 2 adults & 4 big teenagers and a weeks worth of surfing gear to cornwall with almost no complaints though.

Interesting you mention the engine braking.  we have a 30mph limit in our village, reduced last year from 40.  In my aging LR Disco 2, I know that if I'm at 50 coming up the road, adn take my foot of the loud pedal at a particular point on the road I'll be at 30mph at the sign. In my wife's new Seat Alhambra MPV, also automatic, that just doesn't happen.  Seems to me to be more aerodynamics than engine braking.

I know I'm not necessarily in the mainstream here, but I want a large car with large loadspace and am extremely conscious of the scale and momentum of the thing when I drive it, i'd say that I've become much more cautious since I've had this due to that. I'm now contemplating replacing it, but also considering a larger vehicle, not necesarily quite this big, but still big enough for a camping load with a bike on a towbar-rack.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: MattH on September 28, 2019, 04:05:37 pm
At the risk of being ostracised from yacf, nowadays my four wheeled vehicle is a full fat range rover (L322), which is shorter and only an inch or so wider than our other four wheel vehicle, MrsH's LWB T5 Transporter. The T5 is WAV converted with tail lift and capable of taking two chairs in line in the back plus three other seats alongside them - she bought this as she is a teacher in a SLD/PMLD school. It is easier if she can use her own vehicle sometimes as the high top school minibuses won't fit into many car parks and the school car only takes one chair. Bizarrely the RR is the more fuel efficient of the two on a run.

Mine does spend more time with mud or grass under the wheels than tarmac. Within a couple of days of buying it it was pulling a loaded trailer weighing about 3000kg across a field. There's not much else that can do that, other than Land Rover. Air suspension makes hitching things up effortless, without needing to crank on a jockey wheel. Drop the RR low, back up, raise the suspension to full to engage the hitch, drop it to normal and drive off.

The 150kg nose weight limit on the tow hitch means I can carry a small motorbike on a rack on the hitch rather than using a trailer - so I can use the RR to cross the country then use it for what it does best (carrying loads in the back and pulling things off road), leaving it where I'm working and using the bike as a runaround if I'm too far from anywhere to manage with a pushbike thrown inside.

Used for what they designed to do in the 70s, they are a very practical vehicle and older ones aren't massively expensive to buy or run if you are happy with spanners. For commuting, the school run or trips to the supermarket, not so much - even with 360 degree cameras they are a bit of a handful to park in small spaces if you aren't used to driving a van (which is pretty much what they are). I'm struggling to find any reason to own a Velar or Evoque, as even the badge snobbery doesn't exist now anyone can own one on PCP. I still prefer to use the right tool for the job, so the vast majority (>90%) of my annual mileage is on two wheels powered or unpowered as I don't need people, load carrying or off-road capability. The RR only comes out when I need to pull or carry.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Jurek on September 28, 2019, 04:27:08 pm
FWIW, for some time, many years ago, I used a RR for work.
It is something that they do remarkably well.
Work.
ETA - Mostly towing.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: DuncanM on October 02, 2019, 04:51:17 pm
This thread is generally about the inability of the populace to choose the right vehicle for the job. Sounds to me like you have MattH.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 02, 2019, 05:25:34 pm
I spent a period of around 10 minutes last night sitting in an autotest spec Toyota Starlet with a dead alternator being dragged along the road by a Mitsibushi L200.
The lack of big bumpered SAABs was then keenly felt as I had to shove the thing up the drive way where once we would just have shunted it.

Sometimes it's handy to be the neighbour with the ridiculous vehicles...
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Zipperhead on October 03, 2019, 02:25:05 pm
From this article in the Grauniad -
Collision course: why are cars killing more and more pedestrians? (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/03/collision-course-pedestrian-deaths-rising-driverless-cars)

And more Americans than ever are zipping around in SUVs and pickup trucks, which, thanks to their height, weight and shape are between two and three times more likely to kill people they hit.

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Mr Larrington on October 03, 2019, 03:21:00 pm
No great surprise there.  Fnord are stopping sales of "cars" over there altogether, barring the Mustang, to concentrate on SUVs, pickups and "crossovers".
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Johnny Faro on October 03, 2019, 04:41:33 pm
When I was on holiday in America last year we got a 4.6 or similar size engine pick up. It was classed as a mid sized vehicle
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on October 03, 2019, 09:23:23 pm
From this article in the Grauniad -
Collision course: why are cars killing more and more pedestrians? (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/03/collision-course-pedestrian-deaths-rising-driverless-cars)

And more Americans than ever are zipping around in SUVs and pickup trucks, which, thanks to their height, weight and shape are between two and three times more likely to kill people they hit.

Yes, but soon there will be no pedestrians, so all will be good. We'll all be greasing up and levering our wheezing, wobbling, ventripotent bulks into our wheeled behemoths so we can struggle to megastores surrounded by an airport-sized car park to buy tortilla chips in bags big enough to sleep in.

But to be serious, any decline in road deaths and injuries these days seems to come about from scaring off more vulnerable road users. Or killing them. They'll learn one way or the other.

Frankly, unless you've a genuine need to tow an elephant or something, I think the average urban owner of one of these massive vehicles is probably being a bit of a cunt. And if it's a marque of Range Rover, definitely a cunt.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Exit Stage Left on October 03, 2019, 09:58:34 pm
The genesis of SUVs in the US and EU is actually fairly complex. SUVs were a replacement for the 'full size' US cars following the Corporate Average Fuel Economy legislation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy#SUVs_and_minivans_created_due_to_original_mandate

In the UK a four door pickup with a capacity of one tonne has 'Benefit in Kind' advantages for the self-employed, hence lots of high-spec trucks of that type.

Those two factors have made vehicles of the type widely available, and 'style conscious' buyers have found them widely available, and affordable. I'm in a tiny segment of buyers who go for ex-utility 4x4s. Those used to be Land Rovers, but are now Fords or Toyotas, the ones made in South Africa, not Thailand.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Steph on October 04, 2019, 07:40:37 am
Two minor points.

My former brother in law has a Toyota Hilux Surf. Usable interior space is zero.

The Graun used to do a Saturday 'random statistic' map. Once, the stat was "Likelihood your first car was 4WD"

High probability in rural Scotlandland, Powys, Northumberland, etc. And Chelsea.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on October 04, 2019, 10:41:15 am
My theory is that you're planning to, say, invade the Crimea, you need a tank. If you're planning to go shopping at Sainsbury's, you don't.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: perpetual dan on October 04, 2019, 02:39:35 pm
And if you're only invading the Crimea occssionally, then you retain the element of surprise by not manoeuvring your tank every time you go to the shops.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ElyDave on October 04, 2019, 02:50:32 pm
From this article in the Grauniad -
Collision course: why are cars killing more and more pedestrians? (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/03/collision-course-pedestrian-deaths-rising-driverless-cars)

And more Americans than ever are zipping around in SUVs and pickup trucks, which, thanks to their height, weight and shape are between two and three times more likely to kill people they hit.

Yes, but soon there will be no pedestrians, so all will be good. We'll all be greasing up and levering our wheezing, wobbling, ventripotent bulks into our wheeled behemoths so we can struggle to megastores surrounded by an airport-sized car park to buy tortilla chips in bags big enough to sleep in.

But to be serious, any decline in road deaths and injuries these days seems to come about from scaring off more vulnerable road users. Or killing them. They'll learn one way or the other.

Frankly, unless you've a genuine need to tow an elephant or something, I think the average urban owner of one of these massive vehicles is probably being a bit of a cunt. And if it's a marque of Range Rover, definitely a cunt.

As I have a marque of Land Rover, I must just be a bit of a cunt
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 04, 2019, 03:13:26 pm
And if you're only invading the Crimea occssionally, then you retain the element of surprise by not manoeuvring your tank every time you go to the shops.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Or you could call your tank Florence and hide it under a sign 'Beware of the Lampart'.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Exit Stage Left on October 04, 2019, 03:26:14 pm


As I have a marque of Land Rover, I must just be a bit of a cunt

Like anyone else I count myself as the product of a cunt and a dick, with the cunt being the more important part. I can't see how that relates to the vehicle you drive.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: hellymedic on October 05, 2019, 12:56:53 pm
My theory is that you're planning to, say, invade the Crimea, you need a tank. If you're planning to go shopping at Sainsbury's, you don't.

If the main reason you have a car is your weekly trip to Sainsbury's you are wasting loadsmoney! A year's Anytime Delivery Pass is £60 a year for online shopping but if you prefer to do your own shoppnig cabs are MUCH more economical.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: handcyclist on October 05, 2019, 02:17:10 pm
I have a SMBT and a bike.

I shop by bike  ;D
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on October 05, 2019, 02:56:09 pm
Bike has the distinct advantage for shopping of being bike-rack-to-door, rather than middle-of-car-park to halfway-up-the-hill-on-the-other-side-of-the-street.  Which is what I tend to point out to non-cyclists when they comment on how much stuff I'm loading onto the bike.

You can't car your way out of parking problems.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: fuzzy (retd.) AAGE on October 05, 2019, 11:54:58 pm
In the vein of never take a knife to a gunfight- never take a Micra to a car crash.....
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Pickled Onion on October 06, 2019, 09:11:33 am
Bike has the distinct advantage for shopping of being bike-rack-to-door, rather than middle-of-car-park to halfway-up-the-hill-on-the-other-side-of-the-street.  Which is what I tend to point out to non-cyclists when they comment on how much stuff I'm loading onto the bike.

You can't car your way out of parking problems.

To door? When your shopping has wheels on it can carry on to the kitchen. If shopping for more than can fit on a bike, the same applies if you get it delivered and ask the delivery person to bring it in.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ian on October 06, 2019, 06:46:09 pm
From this article in the Grauniad -
Collision course: why are cars killing more and more pedestrians? (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/03/collision-course-pedestrian-deaths-rising-driverless-cars)

And more Americans than ever are zipping around in SUVs and pickup trucks, which, thanks to their height, weight and shape are between two and three times more likely to kill people they hit.

Yes, but soon there will be no pedestrians, so all will be good. We'll all be greasing up and levering our wheezing, wobbling, ventripotent bulks into our wheeled behemoths so we can struggle to megastores surrounded by an airport-sized car park to buy tortilla chips in bags big enough to sleep in.

But to be serious, any decline in road deaths and injuries these days seems to come about from scaring off more vulnerable road users. Or killing them. They'll learn one way or the other.

Frankly, unless you've a genuine need to tow an elephant or something, I think the average urban owner of one of these massive vehicles is probably being a bit of a cunt. And if it's a marque of Range Rover, definitely a cunt.

As I have a marque of Land Rover, I must just be a bit of a cunt

I dunno. Are you towing elephants or planning to invade a neighbouring country? Those are your get-out clauses.

We do the shopping by car, though it's a Ka, so about the size of the trolley. I suppose we could get it delivered but it's a pain in the arse since I'm a random shopper and I don't know what I want until I see it.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Torslanda on October 06, 2019, 08:57:07 pm
Quote
I'm looking outside the office window at the huge Volvo X70 with a slab of a grill my boss drives.

The X(C?)70 is a medium sized estate car with AWD and about a 30mm lift over the vanilla version. It's the same size as a Mondeo (07 on) estate and shares a lot of that car's underpinnings.

Not a SMBT at all.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on October 06, 2019, 10:18:53 pm
Bike has the distinct advantage for shopping of being bike-rack-to-door, rather than middle-of-car-park to halfway-up-the-hill-on-the-other-side-of-the-street.  Which is what I tend to point out to non-cyclists when they comment on how much stuff I'm loading onto the bike.

You can't car your way out of parking problems.

To door? When your shopping has wheels on it can carry on to the kitchen.

We live in the world's least wheelchair accessible house, and a Y-frame large won't fit through a standard door frame unless you unload it and turn it sideways.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 07, 2019, 07:43:33 am
You can't car your way out of parking problems.

No, but you can time your way out of parking problems, shopping at 2am when even the shelf stacking activity is reduced is much less stressful.

The down side is you have to use self service between midnight and 6am.

Edit: Alcomahol drinkers may see it otherways.


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Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: DuncanM on October 07, 2019, 09:31:38 am
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/07/a-deadly-problem-should-we-ban-suvs-from-our-cities
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: trekker12 on October 07, 2019, 10:02:26 am
Quote
I'm looking outside the office window at the huge Volvo X70 with a slab of a grill my boss drives.

The X(C?)70 is a medium sized estate car with AWD and about a 30mm lift over the vanilla version. It's the same size as a Mondeo (07 on) estate and shares a lot of that car's underpinnings.

Not a SMBT at all.

Alright it's an XC90, which shows how much interest I have in the thing
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: trekker12 on October 07, 2019, 10:12:18 am
You can't car your way out of parking problems.

No, but you can time your way out of parking problems, shopping at 2am when even the shelf stacking activity is reduced is much less stressful.

The down side is you have to use self service between midnight and 6am.

Edit: Alcomahol drinkers may see it otherways.


Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Sainsbury's was quiet at 9 o clock on Saturday evening. It was quite a depressing experience though. Better that than trying at 10 o clock on a wet Sunday morning which is why we did it (and yes we drove)
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 07, 2019, 10:56:12 am
You can't car your way out of parking problems.

No, but you can time your way out of parking problems, shopping at 2am when even the shelf stacking activity is reduced is much less stressful.

The down side is you have to use self service between midnight and 6am.

Edit: Alcomahol drinkers may see it otherways.


Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Sainsbury's was quiet at 9 o clock on Saturday evening. It was quite a depressing experience though. Better that than trying at 10 o clock on a wet Sunday morning which is why we did it (and yes we drove)
I possibly see shopping as an important survival function and therefore don't care about the enjoyment factor.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on October 07, 2019, 11:26:18 am
You can't car your way out of parking problems.

No, but you can time your way out of parking problems, shopping at 2am when even the shelf stacking activity is reduced is much less stressful.

During term time, our road's just as clogged with parked cars at 2am as it is during the day.  I've rarely had trouble parking at a supermarket, you just have to walk a little further (which is fine when you've got a trolley to carry all the stuff in one go).
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Johnny Faro on October 07, 2019, 01:41:42 pm
I loved a Mercedes wank panzer yesterday. Absolutely shattered and 2km left to finish of the event and got tucked in behind one for a while to shield from the hideous headwind that genuinely had swung  around to be a headwind all day
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: grams on October 07, 2019, 01:48:20 pm
During term time, our road's just as clogged with parked cars at 2am as it is during the day.  I've rarely had trouble parking at a supermarket, you just have to walk a little further (which is fine when you've got a trolley to carry all the stuff in one go).

You could surely double park for a bit to unload at 2 am.

Or you could just go by bike in the daytime.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 07, 2019, 01:49:37 pm
You can't car your way out of parking problems.

No, but you can time your way out of parking problems, shopping at 2am when even the shelf stacking activity is reduced is much less stressful.

During term time, our road's just as clogged with parked cars at 2am as it is during the day.  I've rarely had trouble parking at a supermarket, you just have to walk a little further (which is fine when you've got a trolley to carry all the stuff in one go).

Ah I forget, not everyone has the advantage of off street parking at home.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on October 07, 2019, 04:13:17 pm
During term time, our road's just as clogged with parked cars at 2am as it is during the day.  I've rarely had trouble parking at a supermarket, you just have to walk a little further (which is fine when you've got a trolley to carry all the stuff in one go).

You could surely double park for a bit to unload at 2 am.

There are some double-yellow lines I tend to use for that sort of thing (well, things that are more unwieldy than shopping), but usually I just...

Quote
just go by bike in the daytime.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: sojournermike on October 07, 2019, 06:10:44 pm
Sorry not to be in touch, but what is an SMBT?

In terms of weight, some of my past vehicles have included:


TVR 1600M          850kgs?
Nissan 200SX    1,249kgs
Nissan Primera  1,300kgs
MG ZT260         1,770kgs (ouch!)
Peugeot 107         850kgs
Peugeot 309         900kgs
Volvo XC70 (P2) 1,714kgs  - currently sitting outside looking unloved
Tesla Model 3     1,847kgs (ouch, but it does carry c.500kgs of batteries everywhere)

I was quite taken aback to find an e-tron weighs over 2.5 tonnes and an i-pace 2.2 tonnes...


Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on October 07, 2019, 06:43:22 pm
Sorry not to be in touch, but what is an SMBT?

Suburban Main Battle Tank, presumably.  Not to be confused with an SMGT, which is a marginally heavier (and much more fun to ride) touring bike.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: The French Tandem on October 07, 2019, 07:37:43 pm
Unpopular opinion: These things are only marginally bigger than normal cars, and just about all of the criticisms of them applies equally to any car.

Indeed, all cars are getting bigger, heavier, partly due to crash regulations, partly due to, errr, other reasons.
Volkswagen Golf MK1, 1974: 790 to 970 kg
Volkswagen Golf Mk7,  2015: 1400 to 1500 kg
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Tim Hall on October 07, 2019, 07:46:23 pm
For various new job related reasons, I'm,  temporarily,  driving a Nissan Navara pickup. It's huge, too big for some parking spaces, drinks diesel like me downing a pint on a Friday night. I'll be pleased when my Proper Car gets here.

I do keep a Bendy Bike in the pick up bit, so I  can cycle to the pie shop though.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: madcow on October 08, 2019, 09:57:31 am
There are numerous advantages to double cabs like the Navara.
You get 4WD for  half or two thirds the price of an equivalent estate type vehicle.
 If you are VAT registered (I'm not ) then you can claim 20% VAT back and despite being a bit heavier on fuel than the average car , if you drive sensibly then they are not wallet emptiers either.
VED is half that of an equivalent car 4WD
I can average 40 mpg on long runs and yes , sometimes I do tow a BFO trailer , go off road legitimately and carry a lot of tools in the back.
Because I occasionally have to carry hazardous goods, the separate load compartment is a must.

You can also get a lot of camping gear and bikes on board as well after a bit of practice.

Parking is sometimes a pain but is a lot easier if you get into the habit of reversing into parking spaces.
 

 
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Exit Stage Left on October 08, 2019, 11:19:12 am
Vehicles such as the Mercedes Vito fulfil the same function as double cabs. They're just as big, and can be had as a 4x4. They don't carry the same connotations as SUVs, but are the same at heart.

All the macho considerations are ramped up to the next level in the world where people actually use 4x4s in the way they are intended. Ford Rangers and Toyota Hi Luxes look a bit wimpish next to a Unimog. Acquiring a Unimog is a rite of passage for many contractors, and is often the first step to bankruptcy. The Dacia Duster is generally seen as the most sensible buy.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 08, 2019, 11:24:57 am
Back in ooh maybe 1990, John Peel told of buying a Unimog and then having problems insuring it because it was classed as a commercial vehicle and he wasn't using it for any of its approved commercial purposes. The National Farmers Union gave him a quote but then wanted to know what he farmed. Baked beanz, obvz, pace ian.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 08, 2019, 01:04:51 pm
Unpopular opinion: These things are only marginally bigger than normal cars, and just about all of the criticisms of them applies equally to any car.

Indeed, all cars are getting bigger, heavier, partly due to crash regulations, partly due to, errr, other reasons.
Volkswagen Golf MK1, 1974: 790 to 970 kg
Volkswagen Golf Mk7,  2015: 1400 to 1500 kg

So a C Segment car in the 1970s now weighs similar to what a D segement car did in the 1970s.

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: iscunonove on October 08, 2019, 01:21:39 pm
Some time ago I did do some research on car weights. I think these were mostly published 'curb' weights of the basic models.

Top ten best selling cars in 1979 were:

Ford Cortina:         1110kg
Ford Escort:          767kg
Mini:                     675kg
Morris Marina:        885kg
Austin Allegro:        869kg
Ford Fiesta:            771kg
Ford Granada:         1190kg
Ford Capri:             1010kg
Vauxhall Cavalier:   895kg
Vauxhall Chevette: 845kg

In 2013:

Ford Fiesta:          1150kg
Ford Focus:          1270kg
Vauxhall Corsa:    1086kg
Vauxhall: Astra:   1200kg (my est.)
VW Golf:              1346kg
Nissan Qashqai:   1297kg
BMW 3 series:      1495kg
VW Polo:             1212kg
BMW 1 Series:    1360kg
Peugeot 208:      1168kg

So between 1979 and 2013 an overall increase in weight of 39.6%. Presumably they've only got even heavier in the last 6 years.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Mr Larrington on October 08, 2019, 01:29:01 pm
Presumably they've only got even heavier in the last 6 years.

More
than ever before, so almost certainly.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: iscunonove on October 08, 2019, 01:36:02 pm
Presumably they've only got even heavier in the last 6 years.

More
  • safety features, and
  • electric motors
than ever before, so almost certainly.

I did try to bring it up to date with the 2017 top ten but there are now so many different engine options and trim levels it make picking a 'typical' weight quite difficult. But yes, probably heavier. Also the rise of 4x4s isn't totally captured in the 'top ten'. Certainly in my part of Hampshire it seems every other car I meet on country lanes is a two tonne tank.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ElyDave on October 08, 2019, 03:36:22 pm
From this article in the Grauniad -
Collision course: why are cars killing more and more pedestrians? (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/03/collision-course-pedestrian-deaths-rising-driverless-cars)

And more Americans than ever are zipping around in SUVs and pickup trucks, which, thanks to their height, weight and shape are between two and three times more likely to kill people they hit.

Yes, but soon there will be no pedestrians, so all will be good. We'll all be greasing up and levering our wheezing, wobbling, ventripotent bulks into our wheeled behemoths so we can struggle to megastores surrounded by an airport-sized car park to buy tortilla chips in bags big enough to sleep in.

But to be serious, any decline in road deaths and injuries these days seems to come about from scaring off more vulnerable road users. Or killing them. They'll learn one way or the other.

Frankly, unless you've a genuine need to tow an elephant or something, I think the average urban owner of one of these massive vehicles is probably being a bit of a cunt. And if it's a marque of Range Rover, definitely a cunt.

As I have a marque of Land Rover, I must just be a bit of a cunt

I dunno. Are you towing elephants or planning to invade a neighbouring country? Those are your get-out clauses.

We do the shopping by car, though it's a Ka, so about the size of the trolley. I suppose we could get it delivered but it's a pain in the arse since I'm a random shopper and I don't know what I want until I see it.

Only Norfolk, but I'll give it back afterwards, no reason to keep it after all.

But Seriously, I do about 3k miles a year in it, either getting bike to Audaxes or just general run about and tip duties. I can tetris a recumbent into the back at risk of ripping interiors to shreds, or your rotator cuff. So use of towbar bike rack is ideal. Also camping out of it is no bother either.

Yes I could do all that with a large estate, but that's just a SST rather than a SMBT
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 08, 2019, 04:37:39 pm
Yes I could do all that with a large estate, but that's just a SST rather than a SMBT
Suburban Small Tank? Suburban Super Tanker?
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: ElyDave on October 08, 2019, 04:42:03 pm
Suburban Scout Tank

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 08, 2019, 05:12:57 pm
Some time ago I did do some research on car weights. I think these were mostly published 'curb' weights of the basic models.

Top ten best selling cars in 1979 were:

Ford Cortina:         1110kg
Ford Escort:          767kg
Mini:                     675kg
Morris Marina:        885kg
Austin Allegro:        869kg
Ford Fiesta:            771kg
Ford Granada:         1190kg
Ford Capri:             1010kg
Vauxhall Cavalier:   895kg
Vauxhall Chevette: 845kg

In 2013:

Ford Fiesta:          1150kg
Ford Focus:          1270kg
Vauxhall Corsa:    1086kg
Vauxhall: Astra:   1200kg (my est.)
VW Golf:              1346kg
Nissan Qashqai:   1297kg
BMW 3 series:      1495kg
VW Polo:             1212kg
BMW 1 Series:    1360kg
Peugeot 208:      1168kg

So between 1979 and 2013 an overall increase in weight of 39.6%. Presumably they've only got even heavier in the last 6 years.

The direct comparisons there are:
Ford Escort:          767kg - Ford Focus:          1270kg
Ford Fiesta:            771kg - Ford Fiesta:          1150kg
Vauxhall Chevette: 845kg - Vauxhall: Astra:   1200kg (my est.)

Part of the problem here is that they are cars which had to put it mildly, diabolical safety considerations.
An ideal comparison would be to take the 1970s SAAB or Volvo and compare it to now... Since SAAB no longer exist we're left with comparing Volvos

But ok a quick look at SAABs
IIRC the late model SAAB 99s had a plate weight of 1200kg and the mid-80s 900s were around 1400kg
The weights listed for the final 2014 NEVS 9-3 are 1410 to 1690kg
Not such a big increase in weight where the old side of the comparison had similarly thick doors with Side Impact Bars in them (SAAB introduced them mid-70s IIRC along with dashboards that offered some padding, A-pillars that were padded and pretty strong and weren't creating huge blind spots thanks to the front window having an epic curve in them to allow it).

Wikipaedia is helping with the Volvos giving a timeline of direct replacements
1970/80s 200 Series - 1270kg - 1465kg
1990s 850 Series - 1385kg - 1570kg
Late 90s to 2016 V70 - 1410kg to 1518Kg (FWD, 4WD adds ~300kg)

The V90 is given as the successor but it's clearly not a direct replacement

So while Safety features aren't the only cause of weight increase, they are clearly the significant portion of it, and when manufacturers who previously thought it fit to sell cheap death traps made of tin were forced to stop doing that of course the average weight increased.

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: DuncanM on October 08, 2019, 07:31:11 pm
I also think that the size comparisons mean you can't compare a 1970s Escort to a 2015 Focus. The segments have blown up so much that a current Polo is bigger than a Mk2 Golf (which was significantly bigger than a Mk1).
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 08, 2019, 07:37:22 pm
They might be comparable in terms of internal size?
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Andrew Br on October 08, 2019, 08:42:31 pm


In terms of weight, some of my past vehicles have included:



MG ZT260         1,770kgs (ouch!)


1000kg for the engine and 770kg for the rest of the car ?


Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: hellymedic on October 08, 2019, 08:43:17 pm
I think the internal dimensions of cars have expanded to fit larger car occupants BICBW.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on October 08, 2019, 08:50:57 pm
I think the internal dimensions of cars have expanded to fit larger car occupants BICBW.

That would make them better at carrying Stuff, which they clearly aren't.

Which isn't to say that the occupants aren't consuming more space, at least in the under 12s age group.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: IanN on October 08, 2019, 09:10:48 pm
My (unsubstantiated) observation is that rear seat room has increased, and boot size has shunk.
So if you want load space you end up with an estate
Estate versions of smaller cars are rare. e.g. Skoda Fabia.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 08, 2019, 09:47:14 pm
I also think that the size comparisons mean you can't compare a 1970s Escort to a 2015 Focus. The segments have blown up so much that a current Polo is bigger than a Mk2 Golf (which was significantly bigger than a Mk1).

The Escort and the Focus are both Considered C-Segment (Small Family/Compact) Cars; a car needs to be considered on purpose not size.
So with the Escort and Focus still targeted at the same market purpose they are a direct comparison.

I have somewhere a picture of my old Corolla E110 and current E120 next to each other.
Toyota didn't target them at different markets, all they did was made a new design to deal with the new safety standards; this has had a significant impact on the width of cars because before then side impact wasn't considered as important as head on, rear end or roll over.

Edit: What's also very clear is the higher driving position and higher suspension, however I wouldn't say the E120s ride height and sitting height is any different from the SAABs I had though they were D-Segment not C.

Found it... the Venison is erm... well the picture was taken in reference to the fact both of them have had front end rebuilds...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191008/7671c59a388f04659c175eac1393754b.jpg)
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 09, 2019, 09:04:17 am
I think the internal dimensions of cars have expanded to fit larger car occupants BICBW.

That would make them better at carrying Stuff, which they clearly aren't.

Which isn't to say that the occupants aren't consuming more space, at least in the under 12s age group.
The under 12s are clearly occupying more space even when they themselves are the same size as kids of the 2nd millennium, due to Special Seats. Which might also explain IanN's observation of more space in the rear seats; now that U12s are forbidden from front seats, manufacturers might be designing more width into back seats in order to hold the same number of kids. It might be interesting to compare with cars made for Asia and Africa, where such considerations don't necessarily apply.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 09, 2019, 11:24:27 am
Africa is usually combined with the  European and Middle Eastern market (EMEA)

Asia Pacific includes Australia and Japan

Americas is the other market.

In reality its 3 different body shells and option sets on the same chassis.



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Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: DuncanM on October 09, 2019, 11:28:39 am
I also think that the size comparisons mean you can't compare a 1970s Escort to a 2015 Focus. The segments have blown up so much that a current Polo is bigger than a Mk2 Golf (which was significantly bigger than a Mk1).

The Escort and the Focus are both Considered C-Segment (Small Family/Compact) Cars; a car needs to be considered on purpose not size.
So with the Escort and Focus still targeted at the same market purpose they are a direct comparison.
Sure. I just think that the definition of a C segment car has changed. The Polo/Fiesta size car has grown so much that they were able to put a new base model in below it (Lupo/Ka), but they never changed the segmentation.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 09, 2019, 11:42:47 am
The original ka was a "city car" or a-segment iirc at the time ford's smallest  car was the b segment fiesta,oddly the Ka is now a competitor for the fiesta.
It was more a case of filling a gap in ford's range.

The Lupo was similar, though the info Round also indicates the unsuitability of the Polo due to size increases for the standard "city car" market.

Although the a segment has cars in it from way back (mini and original fiat 500), the "need" for cars to appear in that market more recently does seem to relate to in increase in external size of b/sub-compacts



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Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 09, 2019, 11:44:13 am
Africa is usually combined with the  European and Middle Eastern market (EMEA)

Asia Pacific includes Australia and Japan

Americas is the other market.

In reality its 3 different body shells and option sets on the same chassis.



Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
So what I'm wondering about is the body shells. Plus, this is true for the global manufacturers but there are plenty of models which never make it out of local markets (Mahindra, Tata, Bajaj, etc).
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 09, 2019, 12:07:05 pm
Africa is usually combined with the  European and Middle Eastern market (EMEA)

Asia Pacific includes Australia and Japan

Americas is the other market.

In reality its 3 different body shells and option sets on the same chassis.



Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
So what I'm wondering about is the body shells. Plus, this is true for the global manufacturers but there are plenty of models which never make it out of local markets (Mahindra, Tata, Bajaj, etc).

Some buy in a "platform" and do the rest others make their own

Mahindra and Tata have their own plarform.
Better info on the Tata, their A-Segment car the Tiago is 3.7m long and 1.6m wide
The current Ford Ka is 3.8m long and 1.6m wide and B Segment

So the sizing appears to be comparable even for a car only really sold in South Asia

The much smaller Tata Nano is no longer produced or sold...
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Mr Larrington on October 09, 2019, 12:51:39 pm
Mahindra did try flogging their Jeep knockoff to BRITONS for a while, to general derision from press and public alike.

The Fnord that puzzled me most was the Ka+.  You take a sub-Fiesta-sized Ka and expand it into something the same size as a Fiesta ???  And it remains the only vehicle I've ever driven in which you could operate all three pedals simultaneously with the same foot.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 09, 2019, 01:08:10 pm
The Ka has always been a derivative of the Fiesta platform, does anyone by the KA because they prefer its styling over the fiesta? hm...
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: grams on October 09, 2019, 01:17:08 pm
Moderns Kas are Fiat 500s.

The Ka+ seems to be a cheapified Fiesta for lower income markets, and not derived from the normal Ka.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 09, 2019, 01:29:57 pm
Moderns Kas are Fiat 500s.

The Ka+ seems to be a cheapified Fiesta for lower income markets, and not derived from the normal Ka.

I'd missed that, the 2nd Generation was on the Fiat Mini platform,

The current one seems to be KA+ (From 2016 onwards) appears to be on the Ford B platform
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_B3_platform

So yeah unrelated, any new KA's must be NOS...
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 09, 2019, 08:08:10 pm
Another use for an SUV. (https://road.cc/content/forum/267461-suv-squirrel-nut-store)
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on October 09, 2019, 08:50:08 pm
Another use for an SUV. (https://road.cc/content/forum/267461-suv-squirrel-nut-store)

Alternatively, you can microwave them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZkAP-CQlhA
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 09, 2019, 09:36:43 pm
Another use for an SUV. (https://road.cc/content/forum/267461-suv-squirrel-nut-store)

Alternatively, you can microwave them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZkAP-CQlhA

Disappointing, was expecting that to be an SUV in a microwave.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on October 09, 2019, 09:48:27 pm
At some point, SUVs are going to come with built-in microwave ovens...
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 09, 2019, 09:50:47 pm
At some point, SUVs are going to come with built-in microwave ovens...

Wouldn't that make it an RV?
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Kim on October 09, 2019, 10:04:26 pm
At some point, SUVs are going to come with built-in microwave ovens...

Wouldn't that make it an RV?

It's not recreational if you're using it on the school run.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 09, 2019, 11:38:50 pm
At some point, SUVs are going to come with built-in microwave ovens...

Wouldn't that make it an RV?

It's not recreational if you're using it on the school run.

Nor is that Sports Utility though...

Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: jsabine on October 10, 2019, 01:20:54 am
At some point, SUVs are going to come with built-in microwave ovens...

Wouldn't that make it an RV?

It's not recreational if you're using it on the school run.

Nor is that Sports Utility though...

Though possibly Sports fUtility if it's the kids' games day.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: fuzzy (retd.) AAGE on October 10, 2019, 11:41:44 am
Shouldn't turning it into a mobile kitchen reneder it liable for commercial VED?
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 10, 2019, 11:47:57 am
You can't car your way out of parking problems.

No, but you can time your way out of parking problems, shopping at 2am when even the shelf stacking activity is reduced is much less stressful.

During term time, our road's just as clogged with parked cars at 2am as it is during the day. I've rarely had trouble parking at a supermarket, you just have to walk a little further (which is fine when you've got a trolley to carry all the stuff in one go).
Our road's more clogged at 2am, cos all the residents have parked their cars and gone to bed. But it used to be more clogged during the day, cos people who lived further out but worked centrally parked here. That was stopped by the previous mayor (retired architect, ex-Tory, posh boy, Green leanings, green implementations, red trousers) introducing residents parking zones, which were going to spread and cover the whole city but the current mayor (Labour, grey suits, tarmac leanings, apparently first black directly elected mayor in Europe, evangelical Christian) reversed that (as he did the 20mph zones extensions). But the current zones are intact and still keeping the streets a bit less crowded.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 10, 2019, 01:43:42 pm
Shouldn't turning it into a mobile kitchen reneder it liable for commercial VED?
2 burner hob, sink, sleeping area convertible into seats = Motorhome for classification purposes hence RV.
The advantage of that is it also changes your vans speed limits.

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Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: Ginger Cat on October 13, 2019, 05:49:10 pm
Surely the "van" speed limits should be applied to these behemoth SUVs?

And the M6 Toll should charge then the van rate?

After all, they are bigger and heavier than some vans.

When I am plodding along gently in Big Van (my sleep-over van, registered as a motorhome, slept in when working away on client sites) it does shock me rather to see the speed those things go at. Move Over White Van Man- you have competition!

GC
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 13, 2019, 07:01:29 pm
The van limits seem to be a hang over from when vans were still ladder chassis with coachwork put on them and didn't handle anything like a car...
Which of course these days still applies to coachworked motorhomes but not your average transit which seems to be as nimble as a focus and driven like it's a Focus ST.
Title: Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
Post by: pumpkin on October 18, 2019, 12:45:52 pm
Surely the "van" speed limits should be applied to these behemoth SUVs?

And the M6 Toll should charge then the van rate?

After all, they are bigger and heavier than some vans.

When I am plodding along gently in Big Van (my sleep-over van, registered as a motorhome, slept in when working away on client sites) it does shock me rather to see the speed those things go at. Move Over White Van Man- you have competition!

GC

Those Audi Q7 (Other brands available) are available in 5.0ltr format so certainly bigger than a lot of vans. Porsche cayenne esp the Turbo versions are just plain fast.