Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: FifeingEejit on October 13, 2019, 08:42:47 pm

Title: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 13, 2019, 08:42:47 pm
As mentioned in the RRTY thread I had an idea, how feasible would it be to ride a different route on islands as part of an RRTY and ideally capture an SR in the process.
I had a click around and came up with the following routes almost all only doable with mandatory route...

EDIT: For the purpose of this :
The Islands for consideration are of the group of islands commonly called the "British Isles" but excludes the 2 largest ones named Great Britain and Ireland.


200s:

Arran
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330097

Harder Alternative:
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330118

The Uists
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330117

Isle of Man (Manx Cat has given me some feedback on it but I've still to tweak it)
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330100

Mull
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330115

Islay (Port Ellen start but could tweak for Port Askaig)
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330124

Orkney
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330122

300s
Shetland Mainland - There is something odd going on with the elevation data there
(You can add Yell and Unst to get to 400 but I've not checked ferry times)
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330131

Skye
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330119

Harris and Lewis - Former Calendar Event "Golden Road and Standing Stones"
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330101

Islay and Jura - I've not been past Craighouse... probably best to start at Feolin Ferry after getting the ferry into Port Askaig.
User submissions to GSV indicates a tarred road with grass crown far enough up to get the 300
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330109


400
Shetland - Ferry dependency for Yell and Unst
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330102

600
Western Isles end to end and back (Serious ferry dependency here)
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330099


I also then went to work out which of the islands you could get a Populaire on (I've not bothered with Anglsey or the IoW which might...)

Bute 85km - Includes some spurious distance riding the Serpentine and a few other legs
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330108

Raasay - 52km
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330130

Coll - 50km - Includes some off road between km 22 and 24 and what must be the remotest Dual-Carriageway at the 33 and 43km marks
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330110

Tiree - 54km
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330126

Barra and Vatersay - 54km
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330128

Jura - 100km
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330125

And an almost impossible to do hillclimb
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31330113

So anyone wanting to take on the challenge of an RRTY and/or SR on Islands off the Coast of GB excluding Ireland (catchier title required)?
Title: Re: Island Randonee's
Post by: grams on October 13, 2019, 08:55:23 pm
That 400 km around Shetland is seriously tempting - something very wonky with the 50,000m climbing figure though.

I feel a 200 km around Portsea (Portsmouth and Southsea) without repeating may be possible, if you fancy a real challenge.
Title: Re: Island Randonee's
Post by: fuaran on October 13, 2019, 09:05:38 pm
The NASA SRTM elevation data only goes to 60° north. So no coverage for most of Shetland, probably causing those weird climbing numbers.

Also Arran. A circuit of the island is about 90km. Or could make a figure of 8 going through the string road, about 120km.

Could extend the Islay route with an out and back along Jura. The ferry is quite frequent.
Title: Re: Island Randonee's
Post by: phantasmagoriana on October 13, 2019, 09:06:52 pm

I also then went to work out which of the islands you could get a Populaire on (I've not bothered with Anglsey or the IoW which might...)


Anglesey would definitely work. There's a sportive (https://alwaysaimhighevents.com/tour-de-mon/tour-de-mon-home) that does a 106-mile route, for instance.
Title: Re: Island Randonee's
Post by: telstarbox on October 13, 2019, 10:02:26 pm
Ditto the Isle of Wight Randonnee (held every spring) is around 100km.
Title: Re: Island Randonee's
Post by: Deano on October 13, 2019, 10:07:34 pm

Could extend the Islay route with an out and back along Jura. The ferry is quite frequent.

Ah, I rode that a few years ago: https://www.strava.com/activities/620291549
Title: Re: Island Randonee's
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 14, 2019, 09:31:11 am
The NASA SRTM elevation data only goes to 60° north. So no coverage for most of Shetland, probably causing those weird climbing numbers.

Also Arran. A circuit of the island is about 90km. Or could make a figure of 8 going through the string road, about 120km.

Could extend the Islay route with an out and back along Jura. The ferry is quite frequent.

I have an Arran route somewhere must have missed it... or I've lost it. doh.

Updated list.

Could extend the Islay route with an out and back along Jura. The ferry is quite frequent.

Yeah I tried that, it didn't come out at a very intersting number, IIRC. Though it might if you're willing to take to the unsealed roads at the north of Jura... route added

Edit: Have been able to follow a track in Aerial photos out to Kinuachdrachd; the last wee bit might be grass track, up towards the Corrievreckan looks like it's a grassy yomp.
So the E. A. Blair fans are sorted but the Poe's will have to walk.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: paddyirish on October 14, 2019, 12:46:57 pm
Great idea- thank you!   Will definitely try some of these.

But Arran without the Ross?  West to East is a gentler way.  Will look to see if there is a better route that can include it
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 14, 2019, 01:00:02 pm
Great idea- thank you!   Will definitely try some of these.

But Arran without the Ross?  West to East is a gentler way.  Will look to see if there is a better route that can include it

I created that one a while back, making it flow is the hardest part.
Edit: Also ideally get Lagg bang on lunch time too...

This might do it:
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31304485
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: Pingu on October 14, 2019, 01:07:18 pm

Harris and Lewis
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/30818348


As devised by IanDG otp: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/5249584
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 14, 2019, 01:13:54 pm

Harris and Lewis
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/30818348


As devised by IanDG otp: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/5249584

I'd seen that before, but a while ago may have been sub-concious or it's the only sensibly structured 300 on that island
I had originally tried the whole of the golden road but it was too long... (See the 600 for that)

Appropriate Credit given?
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: mattc on October 14, 2019, 02:19:58 pm
As mentioned in the RRTY thread I had an idea, how feasible would it be to ride a different route on islands as part of an RRTY and ideally capture an SR in the process.
I had a click around and came up with the following routes almost all only doable with mandatory route...

EDIT: For the purpose of this :
The Islands for consideration are of the group of islands commonly called the "British Isles" but excludes the 2 largest ones named Great Britain and Ireland.

...
This is a nice idea  :thumbsup:

If you setup them up as "proper" perms, remember to create a badge for them as well - the whole world will want to ride then!
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: Pingu on October 15, 2019, 12:52:54 pm
The first Arran 200 falls foul of the "riding the same road in the same direction more than once" rule.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: iroiromono on October 15, 2019, 01:35:02 pm
The first Arran 200 falls foul of the "riding the same road in the same direction more than once" rule.

Believe it or not, no such rule exists. YACF folk-law.

Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: cygnet on October 15, 2019, 02:01:50 pm
I also then went to work out which of the islands you could get a Populaire on (I've not bothered with Anglsey or the IoW which might...)

I reckon you could get a 100 on Sheppey  ;D
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: Feanor on October 15, 2019, 05:54:03 pm
The first Arran 200 falls foul of the "riding the same road in the same direction more than once" rule.

Believe it or not, no such rule exists. YACF folk-law.

I think it's an over-interpretation of Regulation 9.8.2 (b).

https://www.audax.uk/media/1806/auk_regulations_050418.pdf

"A route may visit a control more than once, but routes consisting of repeated passes over the
same circuit will not normally be approved."

It's possible the wording of that regulation was different in the past, and the wording may have previously been more along the lines of the accepted lore, but has now been simplified / clarified to make the intention of the regulation more plain.


Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 15, 2019, 06:06:42 pm

This got me thinking about if this would be possible on a Dutch island.

Texel is the biggest of the Waden Islands, best I can come up with is a 100km:

https://www.strava.com/routes/22238153

I'm wondering if it would be possible to do it as a 200 by basically doing it in one direction, then doing it in the reverse...

J
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: fuaran on October 15, 2019, 06:28:52 pm
Need a fatbike for some beach and machair riding. Could do the length of the Uists.
Or the route of the Tiree ultra, about 55km. http://www.tireefitness.co.uk/ultramarathon-course/
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: Feanor on October 15, 2019, 06:30:47 pm
Or the route of the Tiree ultra, about 55km. http://www.tireefitness.co.uk/ultramarathon-course/

<Fingers in ears>
LaLaLaLa.......
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 15, 2019, 11:06:51 pm
The first Arran 200 falls foul of the "riding the same road in the same direction more than once" rule.

Believe it or not, no such rule exists. YACF folk-law.

I think it's an over-interpretation of Regulation 9.8.2 (b).

https://www.audax.uk/media/1806/auk_regulations_050418.pdf

"A route may visit a control more than once, but routes consisting of repeated passes over the
same circuit will not normally be approved."

It's possible the wording of that regulation was different in the past, and the wording may have previously been more along the lines of the accepted lore, but has now been simplified / clarified to make the intention of the regulation more plain.

When I rode the Mull one I had a mini panic about the middle road and went the long way round to avoid double passing. when I mentioned it to the DIY orgaqnizer I got an e-mail back which included "You are allowed to ride the same road twice in the same direction, it’s continuous loops, ie. multiple laps, that’s banned.".


If you setup them up as "proper" perms, remember to create a badge for them as well - the whole world will want to ride then!

As IanDG pointed out when I wondered aloud about the lack of a perm on the Western Isles chain for his end to end, theres no where on Vatersay to control.
Some of these may be possible to define with real controls however in reality unless Perms are changed so that validation by GPS is available without it also having to be validatable by paper proof of passage... basically perms in much of Scotland are fucked,
What's more a significant portion of Teuchterland ATMs don't print the location on receipts either as Notemachine run the machines stationed in Scotmid Co-Ops.

However a badge is not a bad idea and one I've already been ponderiung
Provided I could get some form of computer based proof of what a DIY was and tie it up with the DIY on a riders result list it's doable.


This got me thinking about if this would be possible on a Dutch island.

Texel is the biggest of the Waden Islands, best I can come up with is a 100km:

https://www.strava.com/routes/22238153

I'm wondering if it would be possible to do it as a 200 by basically doing it in one direction, then doing it in the reverse...

J

You may notice on interrogating some of the routes above that I have essentially done a loop in one direction then used a bit more of the road network to reverse it.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 15, 2019, 11:16:38 pm
There will soon be a legal definition of Island in Scotland at least for the purposes of the "Islands (Scotland) Act 2018"

Code: [Select]
1Meaning of “island” and of “inhabited island”
(1)In this Act, “island” means a naturally formed area of land which is—
(a)surrounded on all sides by the sea (ignoring artificial structures such as bridges), and
(b)above water at high tide.
(2)In this Act, “inhabited island” means an island permanently inhabited by at least one individual.

So Kintyrites can "shut up" about Magnus' scam that tricked Malcolm into letting him have the island for the Kingdom of the Isles.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: Jaded on October 15, 2019, 11:22:53 pm
Have we had the IoW?

Only 100km but possibly AAA?
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 15, 2019, 11:34:21 pm
I suppose the ultimate island cycle would be the Mullach Mór Hill Climb on Hirta.
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31313687
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 15, 2019, 11:37:18 pm
Have we had the IoW?

Only 100km but possibly AAA?

I had a look but not knowing the roads didn't really come up with anything.
Have a crack!
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: telstarbox on October 16, 2019, 08:18:27 am
From the Grimpeurs du Sud website:

Quote
The "Isle of Wight Randonnée" is not an AUK ride but has been measured as having the required amount of climbing and distance and is therefore included [for the GdS] as a discretionary qualifying ride only for the first time the Brevet is claimed by a rider, as it often encourages riders to participate in hilly AUK events which is the main purpose of the award.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: bairn again on October 16, 2019, 09:37:08 am
[EDIT - clearly not an "Island randonnee in the strictest sense" but related......]

A number of years ago a Calmac employee, a keen cyclist, came up with "The Five Ferry fandango". 

Here was his broad schedule.  I think that its just within 14.3km if the finish line is at Fishnish at 219km (Oban is also over 200km). 

The bit that appears the tightest on time is the 27km from Tobermory to Fishnish where the ferry arrives in Tobermory 0835 and you've got to get to Fishnish in time for the ferry at 1000.   
   
Lochaline 0km 0345

Kilchoan 78km 0730

Ferry Kilchoan 0800 Arr Tobermory 0835      

Tobermory   78km 0835

Fishnish 105km 0945

Ferry Fishnish 1000 arr Lochaline 1018   
   
Ardgour 150km 1250

Ferry Ardgour 1300 arr Nether Lochaber 1305
      
Oban 209km 1600

Ferry Oban 1710 arr Craignure 1755
      
Fishnish 219km [official finish line] then
    
Ferry Fishnish 1853 to Lochaline.        


Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 16, 2019, 12:03:38 pm
"The Five Ferry fandango" . . .   broad schedule . . .  if the finish line is at Fishnish at 219km (Oban is also over 200km). 
Here's a RwGPS route for that: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31315624?beta=false
Looks great. I think that a finish in Oban is probably more practical - well over 200 once the ferry distances are taken off.
Ferry from Oban the evening before and across to Mull and off it to Lochaline overnight for an excellent meal in the Hotel [http://www.lochalinehotel.co.uk/], bed and a silly o'clock start (ferry Oban 1710 arr Craignure 1755; 10km to Fishnish; then ferry Fishnish 1853 to Lochaline.)
The Tobermory > Fishnish ride is perfectly doable: 27.4km + 337m in 75 minutes to arrive 10 minutes before scheduled sailing, provided a rider gets off the ferry promptly. Last time the Fishnish ferrymen seemed pretty relaxed about cyclists arriving close to sailing time.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: sg37409 on October 16, 2019, 12:30:21 pm
"The Five Ferry fandango" . . .   broad schedule . . .  if the finish line is at Fishnish at 219km (Oban is also over 200km). 
Here's a RwGPS route for that: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/31315624?beta=false
Looks great. ... <snip>

It does indeed.  I'm pencilling this in for next summer.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 16, 2019, 12:57:44 pm
[EDIT - clearly not an "Island randonnee in the strictest sense" but related......]

A number of years ago a Calmac employee, a keen cyclist, came up with "The Five Ferry fandango". 

Here was his broad schedule.  I think that its just within 14.3km if the finish line is at Fishnish at 219km (Oban is also over 200km). 

The bit that appears the tightest on time is the 27km from Tobermory to Fishnish where the ferry arrives in Tobermory 0835 and you've got to get to Fishnish in time for the ferry at 1000.   
   
Lochaline 0km 0345

Kilchoan 78km 0730

Ferry Kilchoan 0800 Arr Tobermory 0835      

Tobermory   78km 0835

Fishnish 105km 0945

Ferry Fishnish 1000 arr Lochaline 1018   
   
Ardgour 150km 1250

Ferry Ardgour 1300 arr Nether Lochaber 1305
      
Oban 209km 1600

Ferry Oban 1710 arr Craignure 1755
      
Fishnish 219km [official finish line] then
    
Ferry Fishnish 1853 to Lochaline.

Aye, sadly like the other Mull based classic the Port Navigation doesn't meet the requirements of concept as it touches the "mainland".
Mulling it over would also sadly be excluded.

Good route though... Tough route though...
It's also more appealing than the more traditional Five Ferries by
a) being long enough
b) not risking being stuck on Bute for the night.


Talking of Ferries:
Longest day you can get on mull in summer without staying over is a Friday, 0730 from Oban arriving at 0820 and leaving from Craignure at 2245, best of all, they're both MV Isle of Mull so you can have both your breakfast and your tea.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: mattc on October 16, 2019, 08:42:23 pm

If you setup them up as "proper" perms, remember to create a badge for them as well - the whole world will want to ride then!

As IanDG pointed out when I wondered aloud about the lack of a perm on the Western Isles chain for his end to end, theres no where on Vatersay to control.
Some of these may be possible to define with real controls however in reality unless Perms are changed so that validation by GPS is available without it also having to be validatable by paper proof of passage... basically perms in much of Scotland are fucked,
What's more a significant portion of Teuchterland ATMs don't print the location on receipts either as Notemachine run the machines stationed in Scotmid Co-Ops.

However a badge is not a bad idea and one I've already been ponderiung
Provided I could get some form of computer based proof of what a DIY was and tie it up with the DIY on a riders result list it's doable.

Ah OK. I don't know how perms work in your region but the SEEngland DIY guy (Paul Stewart) allows riders to "re-use" DIY routes already used by other riders. That system might allow this to work a little more easily? (I don't think they appear specially in the results, but I suspect anything is possible ... )
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: telstarbox on October 16, 2019, 08:50:15 pm
The current regs say you have to offer receipt/paper PoP for Perms - GPS validation can be an option, but not "instead of".
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 16, 2019, 11:32:36 pm
The current regs say you have to offer receipt/paper PoP for Perms - GPS validation can be an option, but not "instead of".

Indeed and that is the problem for Perms.

To do the 600 as a Perm you would need a control here:
https://goo.gl/maps/VxzNd8n2KQ14zs7i9


DIY's isn't a problem for AUK points, just a bit trickier to validate for a badge.
But all I'd really need is an appropriate link to track log and someones AUK membership number to compare the dates of DIY validations with.
It's doable.

Wonder if I can come up with a design basic enough for a low order size..
Feck price is nearly 4 quid a unit for 25, gets below a quid for 100 which bit much for a niché.

I've also got some DIYs that are hopefully suitable for perms and in an area where there's not much on offer just now,
I just don't necessarily have the space right now for the admin paper work etc.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: mattc on October 17, 2019, 07:39:40 pm
The current regs say you have to offer receipt/paper PoP for Perms - GPS validation can be an option, but not "instead of".
... and they wonder why "trad" perms are dying out, whilst DIYs rocket in numbers.  ::-)
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 18, 2019, 10:38:46 pm
I've decided to split the routes I share with others in RWGPS from my own account, really just to stop me going mad when trying to find routes.

The account with the routes has more than just the Island routes on it too so have a nosey if you want.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: IanDG on October 19, 2019, 06:51:10 pm
I have a spreadsheet for a Barra-Butt-Barra 600km - https://ridewithgps.com/routes/6061292

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48925269196_663146b46e_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hxmN15)WI600 (https://flic.kr/p/2hxmN15) by ian (https://www.flickr.com/photos/acf_windy/), on Flickr

Achievable as shown by my Barra to Butt in 16hrs -
https://www.strava.com/activities/1558870063
https://www.strava.com/activities/1559453807
https://www.strava.com/activities/1559453973

just never found the time to do it as logistically you need to start from Barra (if anyone wants a go please let me know how you get on - or if you want a companion).

I've also done an SR series on Lewis and Harris

https://ridewithgps.com/trips/2678728
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/2866167
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/3068140
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/3481046



and have a number of different GPS DIYs 200 - 600km  - happy to share files (and will add to the new fb group when I get chance.

Perms are difficult on the island.
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: IanDG on October 19, 2019, 08:04:48 pm

Harris and Lewis
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/30818348


As devised by IanDG otp: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/5249584

I'd seen that before, but a while ago may have been sub-concious or it's the only sensibly structured 300 on that island
I had originally tried the whole of the golden road but it was too long... (See the 600 for that)

Appropriate Credit given?

I'm cool.

Although I first rode the route with Pingu (as a non-audax) heading to Harris first, when I first planned to run it as an event I tried a variation in the opposite direction to get the 'Butt' out of the way first, less Golden Road and a trip to the cafe at Ravenspoint.

https://www.strava.com/activities/85421115

But it just works better in the original direction - it's a long slog into a prevailing wind from the Butt to Rodel, you arrive too early for facilities on the west side and there's not much open on the return from Leverburgh. There are also more options of shops that are open early evening on the Barvas/Ness stretch.

Majority of my planned routes are on ride with GPS (I haven't ridden all and the list includes some routes from other organisers events where I've either entered or considered entering). Only back to 2014, think I may have used google maps prior to then. Don't know if someone browsing my routes has the option but I can filter for routes >200km

https://ridewithgps.com/users/208596

Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 19, 2019, 08:52:30 pm
The way I set up the version I put on is:
Ness before the locals wake up
Calanais for lunch
Butty Bus for tea
Golden Road once all the Motorhomes have fought over the Aires, parking spots and passing places for the night (even though you'd miss the Skoon Café unless they're on a late night)

The wind must be a killer for any trip south on the long isle; don't think I've ever ridden Southwards for any length of time out there.
Grovelling at 5kmh on the Clisham descent to Ardvourlie sticks with me as much as sitting up hardly pedalling at 65kmh from there to Ravenspoint.

I really should be attempting my own challenge though...
Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: IanDG on October 19, 2019, 08:59:50 pm
The way I set up the version I put on is:
Ness before the locals wake up
Calanais for lunch
Butty Bus for tea
Golden Road once all the Motorhomes have fought over the Aires, parking spots and passing places for the night (even though you'd miss the Skoon Café unless they're on a late night)

The wind must be a killer for any trip south on the long isle; don't think I've ever ridden Southwards for any length of time out there.
Grovelling at 5kmh on the Clisham descent to Ardvourlie sticks with me as much as sitting up hardly pedalling at 65kmh from there to Ravenspoint.

I really should be attempting my own challenge though...


I used the butty bus first year of the event but he was too slow. Made a special arrangement for early opening with the Temple Cafe in Northton for the following events.

There's a shop in Leverburgh, I think Rodel Hotel is re-opening, there are hotels in Tarbert and I think the Airdashaig filling station re-opens for a short period in the evenings.

Title: Re: Island randonnées
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 09, 2019, 06:50:46 pm
Just reviewing the post as I'm turning it into a blog post in lieu of bothering to have a "page".

https://islandrandonees.blogspot.com

I'll consider actual badges or something if anyone ever claims... I've got a nice picture of "MV Lord of the Isles" that'll do nicely.

I think the Airdashaig filling station re-opens for a short period in the evenings.

Yeah open 8am to 9pm but shut for Tea during the week 6 to 8, but on Saturday it appears to be open 9 to 9.
Anyone attempting the 600 on a Sunday will need to stock up before they pass "Our lady of the isles".

Looking at your SR series... You must have covered almost every road.

For Barra-Butt-Barra, I'm thinking it might work better if you start very early doors at Ardmohr and ride down to Vatersay and back rather than from Castlebay, that way you can probably finish at Am Politician rather than have the return on MV Loch Alain in the time limit.