Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: IanN on October 22, 2019, 01:55:55 pm

Title: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: IanN on October 22, 2019, 01:55:55 pm
Put here rather than Vroom because of the effect on cycling, but move if more appropriate there

So...    what passes for a government proposes that electric cars have green number plates (woo!), get free parking and potentially get access to bus lanes.

In my case, filling up the bus lane into town with electric cars would make my commute significantly more dangerous  ('coz e.g. electric Audis will still be driven by Audi drivers), and probably slower. If you avoid being stuck right behind an older bus, the bus lanes are the next best thing to cycling infrastructure round here.

Perhaps they could encourage electric car use by installing a viable network of charging points (the reason I bought petrol rather than electric).
Sorry. Silly me. They've spent all the money on operation makegovefeeluseful yellowhammer.

Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2019, 02:06:46 pm
It's effectively a measure to remove bus lanes, under cover of greenwash.

The number plate thing is pure bollocks.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: trekker12 on October 22, 2019, 02:21:40 pm
It's to try to hide the fact they took away all of the actual incentives for buying electric cars a few years ago.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: simonp on October 22, 2019, 02:26:37 pm
Stupid perk for rich people.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: hellymedic on October 22, 2019, 02:31:52 pm
Electric cars tend to weigh more than their petrol equivalents and generate more non-exhhaust particulate pollution due to heavy tyre wear. (Non-exhaust particulates are NOT a trivial issue!)

They are no smaller and take up the same space in traffic and parking.

NO, just NO!
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 22, 2019, 03:05:44 pm
Seeing as you can in effect print your own UK number plate, I expect to see all sorts of dubious vehicles sporting green plates.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 22, 2019, 03:12:44 pm

Fuck no.

Sure create roads where dinosaur burners are banned, but call them roads...

J
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2019, 05:39:32 pm
Electric cars tend to weigh more than their petrol equivalents and generate more non-exhhaust particulate pollution due to heavy tyre wear. (Non-exhaust particulates are NOT a trivial issue!)

The jury's still out on that one, the study that everyone points to being funded by a manufacturer of diesel engines and making some distinctly dodgy assumptions.

Yes, EVs tend to be a bit heavier (which means more road wear).  No, they don't necessarily produce *more* particulate pollution, due to the massive reduction in friction braking and the choice of tyre compounds usually being based on efficiency rather than grip.


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They are no smaller and take up the same space in traffic and parking.

Indeed.  They're better than combustion engine motor vehicles, but they're still motor vehicles.

I do think there's some scope for banning combustion engines from certain areas and allowing EVs on local environmental grounds, but we shouldn't be compromising public transport (or active travel) to do it.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 22, 2019, 05:56:45 pm
If we want electric vehicles in bus lanes, we need to get hundreds (tens of thousands, even) of electric buses.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2019, 06:18:30 pm
If we want electric vehicles in bus lanes, we need to get hundreds (tens of thousands, even) of electric buses.

Very much this.

They seem to be making a decent effort in Nottingham and That London.  Birmingham has of course done its bit for the environment by signing up to replace its entire fleet with the mildest of diesel hybrids.  But it really couldn't come fast enough.

Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 22, 2019, 08:30:52 pm
Greenwashing shitbuckets, that's what. Electric cars are made to make middle-class people feel better about themselves.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: hatler on October 22, 2019, 10:14:33 pm
Private, ahead of public convenience.

Was it the Tories perchance who came up with this masterstroke ?

Wankers.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 22, 2019, 10:20:15 pm
Private, ahead of public convenience.

Was it the Tories perchance who came up with this masterstroke ?

Wankers.
It couldn't possibly be designed to appeal to electric car owners in a general election, could it? Why, such a cynical attitude to the green intentions of the government is surely traitorous!
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 22, 2019, 10:36:45 pm
I know no one likes to admit it, but there's nothing even remotely 'green' about an electric car.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Jaded on October 22, 2019, 10:51:28 pm
ian speaks too many truths.

I know no one likes to admit it, but there's nothing even remotely 'green' about an electric car.

Greenwashing shitbuckets, that's what. Electric cars are made to make middle-class people feel better about themselves.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2019, 12:01:04 am
Private, ahead of public convenience.

Was it the Tories perchance who came up with this masterstroke ?

Wankers.
It couldn't possibly be designed to appeal to electric car owners in a general election, could it? Why, such a cynical attitude to the green intentions of the government is surely traitorous!

I thought it was just something to be in the news that wasn't brexit, but that works too.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Polar Bear on October 23, 2019, 07:15:29 am
Electric cars tend to weigh more than their petrol equivalents and generate more non-exhhaust particulate pollution due to heavy tyre wear. (Non-exhaust particulates are NOT a trivial issue!)

They are no smaller and take up the same space in traffic and parking.

NO, just NO!

I'm believe that the non-exhaust particulates bit is not actually true as electric cars tend to use brakes less due to regen and tyre wear seems to be comparable to fossil burners.  I seem to recall seeing a number of articles thoroughly debunking the Clarkson/Daily Hate style claims.

However, I disagree with the green plate gimmick and clogging bus lanes.  Pedestrians on pavements or passengers in buses, tube or trains is still preferrable to wankers in panzers imo regardless of the propulsion system.

If government was genuinely serious it would do something positive rather than seek cheap PR plaudits.  It could try workplace car park charging, park and ride schemes and inner town/city congestion charging.  Oh, but think of the votes of the sadly inconvenienced ...
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: grams on October 23, 2019, 07:38:03 am
I have zero faith in humanity suddenly deciding to walk/cycle/bus everywhere, and I don't think our cities should stink of diesel/petrol fumes, so I'd like everyone to switch to EVs ASAP.

Letting them into bus lanes is a load of old shit though.

If I had my druthers we'd already have stopping making new combustion engine cars - if you want to drive obsolete technology there's plenty of used ones to go around.

(Yeah, I've just puts thousands of out of work. Capitalism ruins everything.)

I'm believe that the non-exhaust particulates bit is not actually true as electric cars tend to use brakes less due to regen and tyre wear seems to be comparable to fossil burners.  I seem to recall seeing a number of articles thoroughly debunking the Clarkson/Daily Hate style claims.

The London Cycle Campaigner Bubble are also huge fans of this study. I do love the overlap.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Polar Bear on October 23, 2019, 07:39:55 am
ian speaks too many truths.

I know no one likes to admit it, but there's nothing even remotely 'green' about an electric car.

Greenwashing shitbuckets, that's what. Electric cars are made to make middle-class people feel better about themselves.

To a degree yes but we are fast approaching that time of year when folk leave their car engines running at 04:30 waking the entire neighbourhood whilst their cars warm and defrost, merrily clogging the air with their nasty tailpipe emissions simply because they need to get to their warehouse jobs in a warm, demisted and thus safer to drive car.  An electric car would of course not make the same amount of noise pollution let alone belch out the noxious exhaust shite.

A street full of EV's instead of fossils would be a far far better place.

EV's naturally appeal to those who can or are willing to afford a conscience but as price parity gets ever closer (estimated for 2025) then running costs will become a significantly bigger factor in the purchase process than any thoughts of environmental conscience. 

PCP affordability will be the turning point and apparently the gap there is closing rapidly due to projected resale values of 2 to 5 year old EVs over their fossil burning brethren. 

Secondhand EV values have been rising for the last 18 months to the extent that you could have kept your car, used it as you normally would and it is worth more now than it was 18 months ago.  Even my climate change sceptic of a sister is considering replacing her ageing heap of a Nissan Almera? with a used 24kwh Leaf as it will do all that she needs and more at a fraction of the day-to-day running costs of the heap.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: essexian on October 23, 2019, 07:54:35 am
You know I used to think this forum was great. Lots of lovely, funny people telling tales about the things we love and other stuff. Yes, it was a good place to be.

Greenwashing shitbuckets, that's what. Electric cars are made to make middle-class people feel better about themselves.

Sorry Ian, but I take offence at this comment. I own an electric car and purchased it because my old Smart car needed replacing and not to make myself feel good. I do not need material thing to make me feel better about myself, I know who I am and where I came from. All I have I have worked for, thankfully not very hard as despite having learning difficulties (I cannot spell for toffees and was in remedial classes for most of my school life) I am smart enough to take my chances as they came along. Perhaps I am now middle class but I still remember my roots: 9 of us in a small three bedroom house with my parents working five jobs between them. A week in a Caravan in Canvey were the only holidays we ever had.

Stupid perk for rich people.


Really? I am rich? Goes off to check savings account.... oh, it seems rich is four figures now days (I'll leave you to decide whether that includes or excludes the decimal point).

Yes, I earn more than the national average wage but frankly, it is likely that if you were to take an average of the earnings of people on here, I would earn less the figure calculated. We all make choices on what to spend our money on. I don't smoke, don't drink, don't eat meat, don't go on expensive holidays any more (too many cats!) and the like, so if I want to spend £250 a month on buying a car which should last me five years minimum before I replace it with the last car I am likely to ever need: can't see me doing much driving after 70, then that's what I'll do thank you very much.

Anyway, I have the 20m walk down my garden to my office/shed so please enjoy the day and if we can, can we be a little less judgemental about people and their choices please.

Oh finally, the Governments idea is stupid for more reasons than I can be bothered to outline.



Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: T42 on October 23, 2019, 08:20:23 am
If we want electric vehicles in bus lanes, we need to get hundreds (tens of thousands, even) of electric buses.

When I was a kid in Belfast, electric buses were exactly what we had, powered from overhead lines.  Then the council replaced them with second-hand Routemasters bought from London Transport.

Funny, innit?
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 23, 2019, 08:44:41 am
Were those trolleys or trams, out of historical interest?
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: hatler on October 23, 2019, 08:54:42 am
You know I used to think this forum was great. Lots of lovely, funny people telling tales about the things we love and other stuff. Yes, it was a good place to be.

Greenwashing shitbuckets, that's what. Electric cars are made to make middle-class people feel better about themselves.

Sorry Ian, but I take offence at this comment. I own an electric car and purchased it because my old Smart car needed replacing and not to make myself feel good. I do not need material thing to make me feel better about myself, I know who I am and where I came from. All I have I have worked for, thankfully not very hard as despite having learning difficulties (I cannot spell for toffees and was in remedial classes for most of my school life) I am smart enough to take my chances as they came along. Perhaps I am now middle class but I still remember my roots: 9 of us in a small three bedroom house with my parents working five jobs between them. A week in a Caravan in Canvey were the only holidays we ever had.

Stupid perk for rich people.


Really? I am rich? Goes off to check savings account.... oh, it seems rich is four figures now days (I'll leave you to decide whether that includes or excludes the decimal point).

Yes, I earn more than the national average wage but frankly, it is likely that if you were to take an average of the earnings of people on here, I would earn less the figure calculated. We all make choices on what to spend our money on. I don't smoke, don't drink, don't eat meat, don't go on expensive holidays any more (too many cats!) and the like, so if I want to spend £250 a month on buying a car which should last me five years minimum before I replace it with the last car I am likely to ever need: can't see me doing much driving after 70, then that's what I'll do thank you very much.

Anyway, I have the 20m walk down my garden to my office/shed so please enjoy the day and if we can, can we be a little less judgemental about people and their choices please.

Oh finally, the Governments idea is stupid for more reasons than I can be bothered to outline.




Good post. Thank you.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 23, 2019, 09:24:38 am
If we're not judgemental, you know nothing changes. If no one is ever upset, nothing changes. I'm sorry if that offends people, but if we don't offend people, nothing changes. We have a car, we're part of the problem. But until you admit you're part of the problem, nothing changes.

Electric cars are a huge resource sump, where do you think the lithium comes from, all the other components and their constituents? Even if we pretend all the electricity is made by in a completely renewable fashion by cuddly creatures, the impact is huge. What about end-of-life. I'm sorry, but electric cars are Marlboro Lights of driving. The let us keep our vehicle-dependent lifestyle and the majority of the costs and impacts, while avoiding reflecting on the impacts of that lifestyle.

If that's worthy of a boo-hoo, then fine, I'm the evil fairy Queen.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: essexian on October 23, 2019, 09:37:28 am
No, a bit of a twat.

Could someone please delete my account. I no longer wish to post on here.

Thanks for all the fish but thats me out of here.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 23, 2019, 10:01:16 am
Stupid perk for rich people.


Really? I am rich? Goes off to check savings account.... oh, it seems rich is four figures now days (I'll leave you to decide whether that includes or excludes the decimal point).
Simon has an electric car himself. And he's a rich person. Well, I've no idea the state of his bank account but in terms of earnings. And definitely middle class. Perhaps these barbs aren't really aimed at other people. But hey.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 23, 2019, 10:01:44 am
No, a bit of a twat.

Could someone please delete my account. I no longer wish to post on here.

Thanks for all the fish but thats me out of here.

See this is part of the problem, the moment people's views and prejudices are challenged, they run to their own little, self-defined safe space.

The choices we make have an impact not only on ourselves, but on others, and those of us privileged enough to live in the first world, well our choices are amplified on those less privileged than us. I think we should all at least be willing confront that. Otherwise, we're stuck with relatively meaningless gestures.

If that's worthy of throwing an insult my way (and in no way did I personally single you out, so thanks) and flouncing, then I'm sorry, that wasn't my intent.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Peat on October 23, 2019, 10:27:50 am
Free parking, hmm. yeah ok.

Use of bus lanes? Piss right off! It's only a temporary perk for the early adopters until the increased uptake makes it as slow as the main carriageway. So all you're doing in the end is making bus travel & cycling EVEN MORE unattractive to the masses than it already is.

Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Pedal Castro on October 23, 2019, 11:14:19 am
I like coming here BECAUSE the views I read are often the exact opposite to my own beliefs. Stepping out of your internet filter bubble is important but I do realize that most people don't understand that and do get upset if not everyone agrees absolutely with their opinions.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2019, 11:39:08 am
Electric cars are a huge resource sump, where do you think the lithium comes from

A big hole in Australia, mostly.  And remember there's a lot less lithium in a lithium-ion cell than a lithium cell.  And you can get it from scrapped batteries, if there were any scrapped batteries to recycle[1].  (AIUI there's a company in the Netherlands who have a commercially viable industrial process, but a limited supply of raw materials.)

The rare earths in permanent-magnet motors are as much of an issue.  Those mostly come from China.  But there are other ways to build electric motors.


Quote
all the other components and their constituents?

The same places they do for combustion-engine cars.


Quote
Even if we pretend all the electricity is made by in a completely renewable fashion by cuddly creatures, the impact is huge.

But no huger than the current status quo, and electricity functions as an abstraction layer.  You can power an electric car on petrol, diesel, coal, natural gas, uranium, wind, solar, geothermal heat, pixie farts or quantum foam without modifying the car, and it's approximately five times more energy efficient.  That's an improvement.


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What about end-of-life.

In general the batteries get a retirement in a static application and then recycled.  The car gets a new battery and goes back on the road, until some fuckwit writes it off, then it gets scavved for parts to retrofit a combustion-engine vehicle.  (Currently, a written-off Tesla is almost worth more than a working Tesla.)


Quote
I'm sorry, but electric cars are Marlboro Lights of driving. The let us keep our vehicle-dependent lifestyle and the majority of the costs and impacts, while avoiding reflecting on the impacts of that lifestyle.

Absolutely agreed.  But vehicles, where used, should be powered by something less wasteful and harmful than burning stuff.  We need this technology for buses and vans and fire engines so on, even in a car-free utopia.  And - as the government have been careful to avoid - we need a fuckload of electric-assist cycles.



[1] The current supply of end-of-life lithium-ion cells is mostly lurking in obsolete computing devices in people's drawers-of-shame.  The ones used in cars have barely made it to static applications.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 23, 2019, 11:44:40 am
The problem with allowing electric cars into bus lanes is not that they're electric, it's that they're cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2019, 11:45:52 am
The problem with allowing electric cars into bus lanes is not that they're electric, it's that they're cars.

The problem with electric cars is not that they're electric, it's that they're cars.

I get sick of this EVs-are-evil rhetoric from people who are fanatically in favour of cargo cycles.  As if they're not going to have a lithium-ion battery and a motor and rubber tyres and brakes.  It's not the technology's fault if people use it inappropriately.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 23, 2019, 11:49:56 am
I'm not really arguing that they're not better than the alternative, which is an ICE. If we buy another car it'll likely be electric. But, tbh, the solution is not to buy another car, because other than the pollution, it'll still do all the bad things vehicles and our dependency on them do. And even recycling has a resource cost and we're talking about massively increasing the number of electric vehicles.

Silly ideas like free parking and access to bus lanes just keep our dependency as is, they don't address any social or environmental issue in a meaningful way, and they allow people to shrug off the problems. Look, I'm driving an electric car and using paper straws, what more do you want? We not talking about how we change our urban and suburban environments to favour other forms of transport. It's just more cars, more roads, and ever more sprawl and dissociation.

And to be honest, it's another transfer of our money to a corporate, all these fillips accrue to the P&L of car manufacturers who get to keep selling us cars (at our expense) while avoiding absorbing any of the associated costs. As a by-the-by, the British car industry is smaller than our video games industry these days.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2019, 11:53:14 am
Quite.

I'd suggest that electric cars are a bit like cycle h*lm*ts.  Useful to a point, but a distraction from the real issues.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: De Sisti on October 23, 2019, 11:53:47 am
I like coming here BECAUSE the views I read are often the exact opposite to my own beliefs. Stepping out of your internet filter bubble is important but I do realize that most people don't understand that and do get upset if not everyone agrees absolutely with their opinions.
:-)
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 23, 2019, 12:05:19 pm
Also, mining all these ores is a hugely ruinous activity, those big holes are very big and they generate massive amounts of pollution, and are usually located in places that have far laxer environment standards. Then they have to be refined. Probably more so than extracting oil which is tubes in the ground and fractional distillation.

On the plus side, all our helium is mostly a byproduct of the oil and gas industry, and everyone needs a floaty birthday balloon. OK, you might also want to cool the magnets in an MRI machine or run a large hadron collider too.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2019, 12:15:22 pm
Also, mining all these ores is a hugely ruinous activity, those big holes are very big and they generate massive amounts of pollution, and are usually located in places that have far laxer environment standards. Then they have to be refined. Probably more so than extracting oil which is tubes in the ground and fractional distillation.

Yeah, but once you've burnt the oil, it's gone.  We need to stop wasting it.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: grams on October 23, 2019, 12:35:15 pm
The “hugely wasteful” critique applies equally to pretty much everything humans do. But it seems to only be wheeled out against electric cars, often as justification for continuing to drive some fossil fuel burning contraption.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: DuncanM on October 23, 2019, 12:38:25 pm
As a by-the-by, the British car industry is smaller than our video games industry these days.
While it makes less money, I bet it employs a huge amount more people. :)

Putting EVs (other than busses) in bus lanes is dumb. I don't even think taxis should be allowed to use them - save them for busses and human propelled vehicles. The green number plate is likewise ridiculous - ANPR means that you can tell what class a vehicle is by asking the DVLA (but they charge per request, so we have to have a stupid bureaucratic inefficient, easily scammed alternative).

EVs in and of themselves are better for the environment than ICE cars, and less good than all other forms of transport (barring flying). As a Zoe owner, this is something I can acknowledge, while accepting that my current circumstances don't permit me to go carless. I'd like to see more EVs, and more varied forms (vans, pickups, trucks etc). Bashing people who have chosen to accept the limitations of EV ownership with the technology in it's current state is counterproductive.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: rafletcher on October 23, 2019, 12:41:38 pm
The “hugely wasteful” critique applies equally to pretty much everything humans do. But it seems to only be wheeled out against electric cars, often as justification for continuing to drive some fossil fuel burning contraption.

No, it's trying to get across the point that EV's are not a universal panacea (is that tautological?).  They're a less bad option for motorised transport.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: simonp on October 23, 2019, 12:44:56 pm
The “hugely wasteful” critique applies equally to pretty much everything humans do. But it seems to only be wheeled out against electric cars, often as justification for continuing to drive some fossil fuel burning contraption.

Mail on Sunday published an article in 2007 claiming the Prius had destroyed the environment around a nickel factory in Canada. They have taken the article down, it was so misleading, and in its place there is now a letter from a reader pointing out some of the mistakes.

https://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-417227/Toyota-factory.html

This stuff isn't accidental. It's all about preserving the status quo.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2019, 01:08:25 pm
Putting EVs (other than busses) in bus lanes is dumb. I don't even think taxis should be allowed to use them - save them for busses and human propelled vehicles.

I'm rather partial to Nottingham's approach of only allowing taxis that are wheelchair-accessible to use bus lanes.  Means the disabled people who might not be able to access a bus aren't disadvantaged, and provides a strong incentive to taxi owners to upgrade their fleet.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: fboab on October 23, 2019, 01:16:20 pm


[1] The current supply of end-of-life lithium-ion cells is mostly lurking in obsolete computing devices in people's drawers-of-shame.  The ones used in cars have barely made it to static applications.
You'll be happy to learn that (lots of) Nissan's UK stocks are coming to a hill just outside Consett to be storage for peaks and troughs of our turbines and photo array.

Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: rob on October 23, 2019, 01:41:12 pm
Probably off on a tangent but I recently saw a presentation on the net zero by 2050 requirements.   We're looking at full electrification or transport and heating.  I suspect this will mean some sort of scrappage scheme for cars and boilers.

Electricity demand will increase but we'll need to retire the gas fired generation fleet (coal will all be well gone by then).  The generation gap will be filled by more nukes but also a whole heap of offshore wind.   Unfortunately though we will have to, fboab points out, manage the peaks and troughs of generation.   The answer to this is grid scale batteries, possibly in conjunction with some other less mature storage technologies.

So, the upshot of more cars with batteries is even more batteries to manage the grid.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Greenbank on October 23, 2019, 01:44:01 pm
I'm not really arguing that they're not better than the alternative, which is an ICE. If we buy another car it'll likely be electric. But, tbh, the solution is not to buy another car, because other than the pollution, it'll still do all the bad things vehicles and our dependency on them do. And even recycling has a resource cost and we're talking about massively increasing the number of electric vehicles.

Indeed, and take the extreme thought experiment of, overnight, replacing every ICE vehicle on the roads with an EV.

Renewable electricity supply can not magically increase to compensate for the increased demand, and so any increased demand on the national grid is going to mostly be met by non-renewable sources, e.g. increased burning of fossil fuels or nuclear. At least until this country (and eventually the world) can move to completely renewable energy generation.

V2G will help mitigate some of this as the non-constant aspects of renewables [solar, wind, hydro, etc] can be evened out thanks to a huge fleet of batteries that don't have to be charged at peak times and that can actively feed back into the grid at peak times. Also helping is the fact that industrial electricity generation at national scale is going to be much more efficient than a generally inefficient petrol/diesel ICE.

Replacing an ICE vehicle with an EV is going to be of some benefit, replacing an ICE vehicle (or to a lesser extent an EV) with nothing is even better.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: HTFB on October 23, 2019, 02:10:18 pm
Electric cars are a 2030-ish solution. They will make sense once the grid is decarbonised. But as Scottish Power (was it? I was half listening) point out today installing the infrastructure to anticipate charging them all, alongside being able to heat our homes without natural gas, is a huge and enormously expensive job that will itself take decades. Coordinating the existence of the cars and existence of the charging infrastructure, so that neither is sitting idle for years, is itself a challenge.

To achieve Net Zero we will all need to adapt our behaviours and prejudices, from learning to sleep in warm bedrooms with the windows closed to being happy with nuclear power plants built close enough to cities that we can use their waste heat. Congestion and parking charges, to reflect the true social cost of vehicles moving and vehicles standing still, will be the least of it. (The big impossibility, though, is knocking down homes in the hope of rebuilding more efficiently and at higher densities. Replacing all the pre-1919 homes in England would cost nigh on half a trillion quid just for the building work, which buys a hell of a lot of electric buses.)

London's congestion charging is already moving to stop exempting low-emission vehicles (electric only from October 2021, no vehicles by 2025). I don't think they're going to gain special bus-lane status now.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: rafletcher on October 23, 2019, 03:31:02 pm
The big impossibility, though, is knocking down homes in the hope of rebuilding more efficiently and at higher densities.

And by extension stopping households of two people living in properties with more than one bedroom. And controlling / limiting the size of families.

EV's are the tip of a very big iceberg.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: trekker12 on October 23, 2019, 03:52:01 pm
All very utopian and in the finest traditions of YACF somewhat off topic.

I'm a bad person, in fact I'm murdering the planet for future generations.

Why you may ask?

Well, I personally have three cars. They all pollute, the most efficient manages about 30 mpg and my classic car does nearer to 20 mpg. I drove to work this morning in my newest car (2004) and bought fossil fuel to do so. I own three cars but can only drive one at a time - my dad has four, three of which were built before 1971.

I'm a motoring enthusiast. Yes that's right I like cars. I actually drive them for fun on racing circuits and I am a passenger in what some would consider a pointless sport called rallying in which we drive very fast for fun. The calculation I make for our fuel figures is 1 litre for every competitive mile - yes 4.54 miles per gallon although in a modern UK national rally the competitive mileage is about 45-60 miles depending on the event, some are longer.

Except to me none of that is pointless. My sport is something my friends and I have have passion for, I could argue it's brought safety, reliability and high end development to the masses and in the old days it did just that but really even then people did it to prove they were better (faster) drivers than others.

I don't however, rely on my cars, yes I drove to work this morning but I do have the means to cycle and will continue to do so. I'd like an electric car but our funds aren't sufficient to buy a new-ish car of any sort at the moment. I see my colleagues buying/leasing the latest model every three years and wonder why. Our main car has 145,000 miles on the clock. I've tasked myself with extending it's life for as long as actually possible - mostly out of fun because I'm interested in the mechanics of the whole process. I don't need to impress my colleagues or neighbours with what's parked on the drive.

Others think it's their only option, which is wrong. I hate commuting by car, there's too many cars to actually enjoy 'motoring'.

I do my best to do what I can for the environment elsewhere in my own small way but my love of cars is not going to change. Hopefully one day I'll have the means to 'operate' an EV or something but it's not driving.

Sorry.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: geraldc on October 23, 2019, 04:08:08 pm
For us who live in tiny flats in the city, once electric cars come in that are self driving, everyone will give up uber/mini cabs and switch to whatever version of car sharing (zip etc) is available then*.  All the cars that are currently parked on my street are a wasted resource. Cars on my street might move for 2 hrs a week. The rest of the time they're just sat there. Car sharing and driverless cars will change things, and it's coming.

*Thinking about it, car deodorising and self cleaning car interiors will be when everyone will make the switch to driverless car share schemes.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 23, 2019, 04:32:38 pm
Electric cars are a huge resource sump, where do you think the lithium comes from

A big hole in Australia, mostly.  And remember there's a lot less lithium in a lithium-ion cell than a lithium cell.  And you can get it from scrapped batteries, if there were any scrapped batteries to recycle[1].  (AIUI there's a company in the Netherlands who have a commercially viable industrial process, but a limited supply of raw materials.)

The rare earths in permanent-magnet motors are as much of an issue.  Those mostly come from China.  But there are other ways to build electric motors.

I thought most came from south america these days?

There's not actually that much in an electric car. Google suggests:

"A 70kWh Tesla battery uses 63kg of Lithium Carbonate Li2CO3, of which 19% or 12kg is Lithium. That's about 0.17kg/kWh in Tesla Batteries"

And because mass is a stupid way of describing it[²], that works out as approximately 22.4l in volume (just under half the typical volume of a Kitchen bin).

The big issue with your battery isn't the lithium, it's the cobalt. Cobalt is added to increase the durability of the battery and improve performance, it's about 5% (I can't find out if that's by weight or by volume). Only Cobalt is almost exclusively found in the DRC. Which gives rise to all sorts of ethical issues wrt conflict minerals etc...

How much aluminium do you think is in your average car engine? Where do you think that comes from?

In theory a car should be nearly fully recyclable. The most difficult items being the tyres and the plastics.

Lithium ion battery recycling exists, and there is some evidence suggesting that the materials recovered from a used battery are of better quality and performance than the first time round. A proper case of upcycling. The problem Lithium battery recycling is having currently is one of supply. Lithium ion batteries in cars are lasting considerably longer than anyone expected, and once they have had their life in a car, they are often used as static batteries in homes and grid scale storage.

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all the other components and their constituents?

The same places they do for combustion-engine cars.

The latest Renault Zoe has tried to do something about this, all the plastic in the Zoe is recycled, and even the fabric of the made from recycled fibre.

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Even if we pretend all the electricity is made by in a completely renewable fashion by cuddly creatures, the impact is huge.

But no huger than the current status quo, and electricity functions as an abstraction layer.  You can power an electric car on petrol, diesel, coal, natural gas, uranium, wind, solar, geothermal heat, pixie farts or quantum foam without modifying the car, and it's approximately five times more energy efficient.  That's an improvement.

It's that energy efficiency that is the key point here. It may be that you replace 200 diesel cars with 200 teslas, and you charge the teslas by burning coal, but it's a lot more plausible to put filtering equipment into the output of the 1 coal plant, than it is into the output of 200 cars. If CCS ever takes off, this will be even more useful until we have completely divested our grid of the burning of coal. What is more in some places the CO² from some power plants is being used, along with the waste heat to improve the growing of food crops to help feed people. Which reduces the CO² emmisions of the power plant.

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What about end-of-life.

In general the batteries get a retirement in a static application and then recycled.  The car gets a new battery and goes back on the road, until some fuckwit writes it off, then it gets scavved for parts to retrofit a combustion-engine vehicle.  (Currently, a written-off Tesla is almost worth more than a working Tesla.)

Yep, the amount of moving parts in a modern EV are so few, that if the frame of the vehicle is intact, then swapping the battery is a worth while path, esp when that battery can be used in static applications.

This is actually going to make for interesting issues. An EV in theory has a lot longer life before it wears out, meaning that manufacturers don't have the expected obsolescence keeping their business going.

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I'm sorry, but electric cars are Marlboro Lights of driving. The let us keep our vehicle-dependent lifestyle and the majority of the costs and impacts, while avoiding reflecting on the impacts of that lifestyle.

Absolutely agreed.  But vehicles, where used, should be powered by something less wasteful and harmful than burning stuff.  We need this technology for buses and vans and fire engines so on, even in a car-free utopia.  And - as the government have been careful to avoid - we need a fuckload of electric-assist cycles.

There is also the major improvement that the emissions are moved to outside the city. This greatly improves the health of the population at large, even if it isn't making a massive difference in total amount of CO² going into the atmosphere.

To go back to the previously mentioned point regarding non-tailpipe particulate emissions, even your bike has these. Sure it's a lot less than on a 2t death box, but my tyres still lose weight over their life, and it's going somewhere. Everything has an impact.

It's easy to be sceptical, it's easy to say that electric cars are feel good green washing for the middle classes. But as long as each new EV is removing a dinosaur burner from the road, it does make things better. Sure it doesn't solve the problem of entitled wankers misusing public space, sure it doesn't help with inactivity related illness. But if we replaced every single dinosaur burner with an EV in the same phyiscal envelope, it would make a noticeable difference to the world. And that is a step on the way towards replacing those EV's with cargo bikes and public transport.

Now if we could just solve the chicken and egg problem of pubic transport, we'd be onto a winner in actually improving out world...

J

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[1] The current supply of end-of-life lithium-ion cells is mostly lurking in obsolete computing devices in people's drawers-of-shame.  The ones used in cars have barely made it to static applications.

The problem with the computing device cells is they are so varied and small, making it more expensive to recycle. If you have 100t of leaf batteries, it's a lot more cost effective to recycle than 100t of nokia batteries, and increasingly, integrated into the rest of the device.



[²] It's actually a big problem when it comes to discussing things like nuclear waste. People say a nuclear plant is generating lots of waste, you can even find numbers like a 1GW nuclear plant will generate 27t of waste in a year. But if you ask people to visualise that, it's about 52l, or about the same as your Kitchen bin. If you empty your kitchen bin once a year, you're generating a greater volume of waste than a 1GW nuclear plant does. Sure the nuclear waste is pretty damn dangerous, but we are coming to realise that the plastic waste we generate isn't all that great either. When you consider that the full stock pile of 100t of plutonium the UK has, would fit in a transit van. Sure that would be a bad idea on so many levels. But people are just crap at visualising stuff if you use mass to describe it. It's even worse when you think about CO². A flight across Europe will produce 2t of CO² per passenger. Just how much is that? How much does all the air in the room you're in weigh? Using mass is great from a science point of view, but we really can't visualise it as normal humans.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: DuncanM on October 23, 2019, 04:42:38 pm
For us who live in tiny flats in the city, once electric cars come in that are self driving, everyone will give up uber/mini cabs and switch to whatever version of car sharing (zip etc) is available then*.  All the cars that are currently parked on my street are a wasted resource. Cars on my street might move for 2 hrs a week. The rest of the time they're just sat there. Car sharing and driverless cars will change things, and it's coming.

*Thinking about it, car deodorising and self cleaning car interiors will be when everyone will make the switch to driverless car share schemes.
Driverless cars are just around the corner. Just like fusion power. :P
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: trekker12 on October 23, 2019, 04:45:25 pm
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An EV in theory has a lot longer life before it wears out, meaning that manufacturers don't have the expected obsolescence keeping their business going.

And this is entirely subjective. Car manufacturers stick 7 year or longer warranty on cars and life them for 100,000 miles yet and see my post above I am capable of operating a 2003 Peugeot with 145,000 miles on the clock. It had some suspension repairs and the brakes replaced this year and there are some interesting electrical 'features' but it's not worn out.

A more extreme example, I have a 1976 MGBGT with unknown miles on it (it's been round the clock once in my ownership but may have done so before then). It's got a different engine and most of the other parts have been replaced but the bodyshell is the same one. The engine was second hand and that went in some time in the 90s. I don't consider any of my car worn out and it's been very reliable. If it does have a fault I am also capable of fixing it.

Parts wear out, cars don't. The aftermarket upsell of servicing and later on the additional warranties based on the human reliance of a car is a major part of the whole problem.

The expected obsolesence is entirely down to the car manufacturers wanting us to replace the car every three years. Get rid of that idiotic mindset and it's a big hurdle. It's like people expect the car to disintegrate on the way to it's first MOT.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 23, 2019, 04:50:41 pm
How much aluminium do you think is in your average car engine? Where do you think that comes from?
Dug outta da ground by reggae-loving, cricket-mad, spliffed-up Rastas.  :D
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 23, 2019, 05:35:53 pm
Quote
An EV in theory has a lot longer life before it wears out, meaning that manufacturers don't have the expected obsolescence keeping their business going.

And this is entirely subjective. Car manufacturers stick 7 year or longer warranty on cars and life them for 100,000 miles yet and see my post above I am capable of operating a 2003 Peugeot with 145,000 miles on the clock. It had some suspension repairs and the brakes replaced this year and there are some interesting electrical 'features' but it's not worn out.

A more extreme example, I have a 1976 MGBGT with unknown miles on it (it's been round the clock once in my ownership but may have done so before then). It's got a different engine and most of the other parts have been replaced but the bodyshell is the same one. The engine was second hand and that went in some time in the 90s. I don't consider any of my car worn out and it's been very reliable. If it does have a fault I am also capable of fixing it.

Parts wear out, cars don't. The aftermarket upsell of servicing and later on the additional warranties based on the human reliance of a car is a major part of the whole problem.

The expected obsolesence is entirely down to the car manufacturers wanting us to replace the car every three years. Get rid of that idiotic mindset and it's a big hurdle. It's like people expect the car to disintegrate on the way to it's first MOT.

It is subjective. But for most motorists they get to the point where the amount of work required to fix the car is more than the car is worth, because the engine is so expensive etc...

How this changes when it's a case of swap the battery rather than swap the engine, will be an interesting one...

J
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Greenbank on October 23, 2019, 05:36:12 pm
[²] It's actually a big problem when it comes to discussing things like nuclear waste. People say a nuclear plant is generating lots of waste, you can even find numbers like a 1GW nuclear plant will generate 27t of waste in a year. But if you ask people to visualise that, it's about 52l, or about the same as your Kitchen bin.

Are you sure those figures are correct?

27 metric tons of water would be roughly 27,000 litres.

If 27t (assuming metric tons) of waste is only 52 liters then nuclear waste is 519 times more dense than water?

Depleted uranium is only ~19 times as dense as water.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 23, 2019, 05:50:46 pm

Are you sure those figures are correct?

27 metric tons of water would be roughly 27,000 litres.

If 27t (assuming metric tons) of waste is only 52 liters then nuclear waste is 519 times more dense than water?

Depleted uranium is only ~19 times as dense as water.

Oh bollocks. Decimal point issue.

515.7l not ~52l. Factor 10 out.

Thanks for spotting that.

So ten weeks of emptying the kitchen bin, not 1 week.

It's a cube 802mm on each side. As opposed to a cube of 372mm on each side.

Apparently the average wheelie bin is 240l, so it's a little over 2 wheelie bins worth...

Still not a lot when you think about it. Esp as it's enough to drive a nissan leaf approximately 4,716,981,132km, or to the sun and back almost 16 times...

J
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 24, 2019, 11:17:06 am
Nuclear waste isn't a one-ness though, that's high-level waste, the end-product of fission and reprocessing. Long half-life daughter nuclides. There's lots of other stuff, low-and-mid level for instance which can anything from a pair of gloves to filing cabinets. Anything that's been potentially contaminated with radioactive materials generally falls into this category, even if it's sub-kBq and short half-life like 32-P (which is better stored for a couple of months and then disposed of in a normal bin). That kind of stuff could and should be better categorized. There's also big stuff, reactor vessel walls etc. which are generally very radioactive and difficult to manage. I do often see it stated that the fabled fusion doesn't produce radioactive waste, which isn't really true, since most forms of fusion will kick out high eV neutrons into the reactor walls and other equipment (only 3-He fusion won't, but that has a massive Coulomb barrier to clamber over, far, far higher than our current tentative attempts with 2-H and 4-He).

Anyway, we're a ways away from fusion-powered cars, that's right back to the future. But anyway, a society with fewer cars would be better in my opinion, and electric cars simple perpetuate the unsatisfactory current situation (no one seems able to state any genuine benefits to our current dependency on cars), as would nuclear-powered cars. Admittedly nuclear-powered cars would be cooler, if not literally.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 24, 2019, 11:30:57 am
Nuclear waste isn't a one-ness though, that's high-level waste, the end-product of fission and reprocessing. Long half-life daughter nuclides. There's lots of other stuff, low-and-mid level for instance which can anything from a pair of gloves to filing cabinets. Anything that's been potentially contaminated with radioactive materials generally falls into this category, even if it's sub-kBq and short half-life like 32-P (which is better stored for a couple of months and then disposed of in a normal bin). That kind of stuff could and should be better categorized. There's also big stuff, reactor vessel walls etc. which are generally very radioactive and difficult to manage. I do often see it stated that the fabled fusion doesn't produce radioactive waste, which isn't really true, since most forms of fusion will kick out high eV neutrons into the reactor walls and other equipment (only 3-He fusion won't, but that has a massive Coulomb barrier to clamber over, far, far higher than our current tentative attempts with 2-H and 4-He).

Anyway, we're a ways away from fusion-powered cars, that's right back to the future. But anyway, a society with fewer cars would be better in my opinion, and electric cars simple perpetuate the unsatisfactory current situation (no one seems able to state any genuine benefits to our current dependency on cars), as would nuclear-powered cars. Admittedly nuclear-powered cars would be cooler, if not literally.

Interesting.

Do you have any data on the volumes of the above? I only seem to be able to find info on the actual fuel side of things.

Which of course ignores reprocessing, I've seen figures ([citation needed]) suggesting that 97% of the fuel can be recycled and thus reused. Meaning of the 27t, only 810kg would need to be stored, which is 15.5l in volume (a large waste paper bin under an office desk). But I don't have any data on how this is done, how often it is done, etc...

Fusion powered cars do exist, they are just rather inefficient (if you include the full cycle including the fusion bit, tho they tend to be very efficient in most other respects)... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car_racing#World_Solar_Challenge)

J
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 24, 2019, 12:01:52 pm
There's an interesting article which answers those questions here (https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/nuclear-wastes/radioactive-waste-management.aspx).

Radioactivity is difficult, since there's a wide range of decay modes and outcomes. Many isotopes of uranium, for instance, while having long half-lives, are primarily modest alpha sources (as such, wrapping them in aluminium foil will render them innocent). The isotopes I used to work with were generally weak and primary beta-emitters, so a couple of millimeters of perspex was sufficient protection, but they were biologically labile and you generally don't want a highish energy beta source, even with a short half-life, in your DNA. So biological activity has to be considered. 131-I, for instance, is very dangerous because it concentrates in the thyroid and is reasonably energetic (mostly beta and modest amounts of gamma, but the half-life is only 8 days, which is why it can be competitively displaced with a course of iodine tablets).

Comparatively, nuclear energy produces less waste than, for instance, coal-fired power stations, by at least an order of magnitude and much of the radioactive waste is ironically less radioactive than the ash from those power stations, but of course, we have a unique relationship with nuclear power and radioactive waste.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Greenbank on October 24, 2019, 12:22:18 pm
Meaning of the 27t, only 810kg would need to be stored, which is 15.5l in volume (a large waste paper bin under an office desk). But I don't have any data on how this is done, how often it is done, etc...

I think your figures are still out although only by a factor of 2 and a bit. The densest material on Earth is Osmium at 22g per cubic centimetre (i.e. 22kg per litre).

You're quoting a density of 810kg / 15.5 = 52.26 (2dp) kg/L which is more than twice this.

Depleted uranium has a density of about 19. So 810kg of that would be ~42L, so we're still talking about a bin but just a bit larger.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 24, 2019, 12:46:48 pm
According to the IAEA in 2018, there's 22,000 m3 of high-level waste in storage (there's actually no sense in immediate disposal, it has to be cooled, and 99% of the radioactivity will have decayed in under a century, high energy isotopes generally have short half-lives, for obvious reasons). That's about 10ish Olympic swimming pools. Bigger than my office bin, anyway, but compared to other industries, very little.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: geraldc on October 24, 2019, 12:50:04 pm
This news article is quite relevant
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50167812
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 24, 2019, 01:22:20 pm

I think your figures are still out although only by a factor of 2 and a bit. The densest material on Earth is Osmium at 22g per cubic centimetre (i.e. 22kg per litre).

You're quoting a density of 810kg / 15.5 = 52.26 (2dp) kg/L which is more than twice this.

Depleted uranium has a density of about 19. So 810kg of that would be ~42L, so we're still talking about a bin but just a bit larger.

I did:
!calc 27000*0.03
810.0
!calc 810*0.0191
15.470999999999998

I've had very little sleep and am juggling too many things so my numbers may be well off. I would like to have correct numbers.

J

Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Greenbank on October 24, 2019, 01:29:32 pm
Units of mass = kg
Units of density = mass/volume = kg/L

If you multiply mass by density you get mass^2 / volume.

You need to divide mass by density to get volume.

810kg
Density is 19.1 kg/L

To get L you need to do 810 kg / 19.1 kg/L = 42.4 L (1dp).

[EDIT] Multipliying by 0.0191 is the same as dividing by 52.36 (2dp). For a density of 19.1kg/L you need to multiply by 0.052 (2dp).
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: iscunonove on October 24, 2019, 01:36:11 pm
Some interesting information there, but to bring the issue back to everyday life. I'd be interested to know what effect electric cars are going to have on the numbers of vehicles on the road. If they really are incredibly cheap to run, won't people be tempted to use them more resulting in even busier roads? Also, when I drive I use a very light right foot to maximise fuel economy. If the range issue is sorted then what?.. pedal to the metal?

The fact is, if we really wanted to maximise economy and/or reduce CO2 emissions there's been loads of things that could have been done. That they haven't is down to people's desire for comfort, self esteem, convenience etc etc. These 'drivers' are not going to change.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 24, 2019, 03:46:13 pm
This news article is quite relevant
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50167812
Braking seems to be the hardest skill for them. But then we're not told they actually have brakes.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 24, 2019, 03:47:23 pm
Some interesting information there, but to bring the issue back to everyday life. I'd be interested to know what effect electric cars are going to have on the numbers of vehicles on the road. If they really are incredibly cheap to run, won't people be tempted to use them more resulting in even busier roads? Also, when I drive I use a very light right foot to maximise fuel economy. If the range issue is sorted then what?.. pedal to the metal?

The fact is, if we really wanted to maximise economy and/or reduce CO2 emissions there's been loads of things that could have been done. That they haven't is down to people's desire for comfort, self esteem, convenience etc etc. These 'drivers' are not going to change.
Pretty much a certainty, I'd say. (And autonomous vehicles even more, but they're still some way off.)
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: simonp on October 24, 2019, 03:57:03 pm
Rebound effect - energy efficiency leads to more usage, offsetting the benefit.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Wycombewheeler on October 24, 2019, 04:34:01 pm
There is also the question of true efficiency.  Electric motors are very efficient at turning electricity into circular motion, but is the power station significantly more efficient than a car engine when burning fuel?

What about when it is cold and you need to heat the car? An internal combustion engine is a convenient source of free heat, replace that with an electric motor and you may now need a heater if using the car in a uk winter.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: simonp on October 24, 2019, 04:51:33 pm
There is also the question of true efficiency.  Electric motors are very efficient at turning electricity into circular motion, but is the power station significantly more efficient than a car engine when burning fuel?

What about when it is cold and you need to heat the car? An internal combustion engine is a convenient source of free heat, replace that with an electric motor and you may now need a heater if using the car in a uk winter.

The efficiency of an electric motor in a car is around 95-97% under typical loads. A Diesel car manages peak efficiency around 40%. The efficiency of a combined cycle gas turbine power station is around 65%. It’s burning a fuel (methane) with a much lower carbon content than Diesel.

The true carbon dioxide impact of a diesel car is typically 111g/km or more, due to combination of exhaust  CO2 emissions and the oil extraction and refinery process (golf diesel; source: Volkswagen).

For electricity sourced from gas it’s 490 gCO2eq/kWh (Source: IPCC 2014)

I’m currently getting around 4 miles/kWh in EV mode. 490/4/1.6 => 76.5g/km

When I charged overnight the grid was running at about 227g/kWh. => ~35g/km. 3x win for EV vs Diesel

Heating a car by running the engine is extremely wasteful. Using an air source heat pump is far more efficient.

Edit: picked wrong figure for Diesel golf.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 24, 2019, 06:11:43 pm
Heating a car by running the engine is extremely wasteful.

Not to mention inconvenient.  Any hybrid or reasonably efficient diesel does a terrible job at providing heat in a timely manner, which leads to further waste as people sit around with the engine idling waiting for the windscreen to demist.

At least a heat-pump starts to work immediately, even if you don't set it to pre-heat the car by remote control or timer.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Denis99 on October 25, 2019, 10:51:53 am
We have had a Nissan Leaf for about 4 years.

Driving in a bus lane, simply NO. The bus lane should be used for buses and to encourage more, quicker, cheaper public transport.

Green number plates, no. Spend any of that money on improving the EV car charging infrastructure to encourage more people out of their diesels and petrol cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Wycombewheeler on October 25, 2019, 12:57:44 pm
There is also the question of true efficiency.  Electric motors are very efficient at turning electricity into circular motion, but is the power station significantly more efficient than a car engine when burning fuel?

What about when it is cold and you need to heat the car? An internal combustion engine is a convenient source of free heat, replace that with an electric motor and you may now need a heater if using the car in a uk winter.

The efficiency of an electric motor in a car is around 95-97% under typical loads. A Diesel car manages peak efficiency around 40%. The efficiency of a combined cycle gas turbine power station is around 65%. It’s burning a fuel (methane) with a much lower carbon content than Diesel.

The true carbon dioxide impact of a diesel car is typically 111g/km or more, due to combination of exhaust  CO2 emissions and the oil extraction and refinery process (golf diesel; source: Volkswagen).

For electricity sourced from gas it’s 490 gCO2eq/kWh (Source: IPCC 2014)

I’m currently getting around 4 miles/kWh in EV mode. 490/4/1.6 => 76.5g/km

When I charged overnight the grid was running at about 227g/kWh. => ~35g/km. 3x win for EV vs Diesel

Heating a car by running the engine is extremely wasteful. Using an air source heat pump is far more efficient.

Edit: picked wrong figure for Diesel golf.
I'm not running an engine to heat the car, I'm driving normally and waste heat is heating the car. Are you suggesting that the engine works harder when I turn the heating on? I always understood putting the heating on diverted the airflow which the car needs going over the radiator to provide warmth to the occupants.

I have never once left the engine running when idling to warm thr car/clear the windows, just give them a wipe.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: iscunonove on October 25, 2019, 12:59:35 pm
Rebound effect - energy efficiency leads to more usage, offsetting the benefit.
So side effects of moving to electric cars could well be: more congestion, less active travel, more danger to vulnerable road users, worsening obesity rates, less space for people (especially for children), increased social isolation.... any others?

Once the bus lanes are full of electric cars (which won't be long), where are all the buses going to go?

I'm glad this has all been thought through by our betters.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 25, 2019, 01:03:25 pm
Are you suggesting that the engine works harder when I turn the heating on?

Only when you turn on the rear window demister (and similar electrical loads).  The effect is marginal compared to the overhead of simply idling the engine.

This is more true in hybrids, which will run the combustion engine when it wouldn't otherwise purely in order to generate heat/power for the climate control.  In the interests of efficiency they generally try to dump energy into the battery while they're doing it.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 25, 2019, 01:05:39 pm
Once the bus lanes are full of electric cars (which won't be long), where are all the buses going to go?

The buses will be stuck in traffic like everyone else, become less reliable, and get less use.  They can then be de-funded.  Job done.


Quote
I'm glad this has all been thought through by our betters.

Quite.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: iscunonove on October 25, 2019, 01:07:15 pm

I'm not running an engine to heat the car, I'm driving normally and waste heat is heating the car. Are you suggesting that the engine works harder when I turn the heating on? I always understood putting the heating on diverted the airflow which the car needs going over the radiator to provide warmth to the occupants.

I have never once left the engine running when idling to warm thr car/clear the windows, just give them a wipe.
Yep 'free' heat in an ICE vehicle due to thermal inefficiency. (Engine needs to be cooled). But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

This is true in hybrids, which will run the combustion engine when it wouldn't otherwise purely in order to generate heat/power for the climate control.  They generally try to dump energy into the battery while they're doing it.
An engineering compromise it seems.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: iscunonove on October 25, 2019, 01:12:53 pm

The buses will be stuck in traffic like everyone else, become less reliable, and get less use.  They can then be de-funded.  Job done.

Yes, buses won't be needed when everyone has an electric powered personal transport box. Will be great for the economy, and that's the main thing. There's not much money to be made from bikes.... even cf ones with 12 speed electric gears.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Kim on October 25, 2019, 01:14:59 pm

The buses will be stuck in traffic like everyone else, become less reliable, and get less use.  They can then be de-funded.  Job done.

Yes, buses won't be needed when everyone has an electric powered personal transport box. Will be great for the economy, and that's the main thing.

Exactly.  Standard Thatcherism.  The electricity aspect just makes it easier to sell to un-critical greenies.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: simonp on October 25, 2019, 02:42:46 pm
But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

Every car in the queue outside my office at rush hour.

Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: simonp on October 25, 2019, 02:55:20 pm
Rebound effect - energy efficiency leads to more usage, offsetting the benefit.
So side effects of moving to electric cars could well be: more congestion, less active travel, more danger to vulnerable road users, worsening obesity rates, less space for people (especially for children), increased social isolation.... any others?

Once the bus lanes are full of electric cars (which won't be long), where are all the buses going to go?

I'm glad this has all been thought through by our betters.

Congestion charges, low emission zones, road pricing.

London's congestion charge started out allowing hybrids in for free. Then that was stopped. Next it will be plug-in hybrids, next year IIRC. The goalposts will need to keep shifting. The ULEZ has already had a significant effect on London's air quality, and doing nothing about that isn't an option.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Pickled Onion on October 25, 2019, 06:25:19 pm
Yep 'free' heat in an ICE vehicle due to thermal inefficiency. (Engine needs to be cooled). But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

Given the figure above: 40% efficient at producing motion, so the other 60% produces heat and noise. Noise doesn't contain much energy, so clearly using a stationary ICE vehicle to produce heat is *more* efficient than using it to get somewhere.

QED.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: cycleman on October 25, 2019, 06:58:33 pm
I reckon that only cycles should be allowed in the bus lanes. All the other vehicles should be powered by power lines like the  old trolleybus.. Even lorries could be powered that way for urban delivery at least.. Meanwhile back in the real world no cars should be allowed in the bus lanes  :)
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 25, 2019, 07:58:28 pm
I reckon that only cycles should be allowed in the bus lanes. All the other vehicles should be powered by power lines like the  old trolleybus.. Even lorries could be powered that way for urban delivery at least.. Meanwhile back in the real world no cars should be allowed in the bus lanes  :)
You going to replace your flag pole with copper cable?  :D
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: cycleman on October 26, 2019, 07:50:36 am
 ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: sojournermike on October 26, 2019, 11:28:09 am
Greenwashing shitbuckets, that's what. Electric cars are made to make middle-class people feel better about themselves.

Thanks Ian;)
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: sojournermike on October 26, 2019, 11:54:58 am
As a by-the-by, the British car industry is smaller than our video games industry these days.
While it makes less money, I bet it employs a huge amount more people. :)

Putting EVs (other than busses) in bus lanes is dumb. I don't even think taxis should be allowed to use them - save them for busses and human propelled vehicles. The green number plate is likewise ridiculous - ANPR means that you can tell what class a vehicle is by asking the DVLA (but they charge per request, so we have to have a stupid bureaucratic inefficient, easily scammed alternative).

EVs in and of themselves are better for the environment than ICE cars, and less good than all other forms of transport (barring flying). As a Zoe owner, this is something I can acknowledge, while accepting that my current circumstances don't permit me to go carless. I'd like to see more EVs, and more varied forms (vans, pickups, trucks etc). Bashing people who have chosen to accept the limitations of EV ownership with the technology in it's current state is counterproductive.


Sensible view Duncan, thanks
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on October 26, 2019, 09:40:03 pm
Like everybody on here, I am a cyclist.  Over the last 10 years i have probably cycled to work 2-3 days per week for >50% of weeks.  2 days i can generally walk to work.

Over the summer I drove as unable to cycle due to injury.  I have averaged 4500 per year for last few years

I have irregular trips to court which are generally by train if feasible but i cannot get to manchester by train in any reasonable fashion.  I also have irregular trips much further afield.  This leads to a requirement for a car.  i have a Golf GTE which replaced a fairly old car which i detested.  If i use it for commute then I can do the whole day on electric with regenerative braking.  I spend 90% of the commute on dual carriageway in cruise mode and barely touch the brakes or steering wheel in the 5 miles (lane recognition).

I charge overnight when i believe renewables are most efficient.

My wife has a 7 year old diesel Volvo with 67000 on the clock.  We have taken the decision to run this into the ground as it passes the MOT without any work every year and is meticulously serviced.  I think we are now probably at the stage where replacing it would be negative overall for the environment but open to correction.  My wife does not cycle but now walks and regularly will walk 10km per day to meetings, etc rather than the car.

I accept that all of these are make do and stopgaps.  If I had waited a couple of years I would possibly have joined a car club and only used it when necessary.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Jaded on October 26, 2019, 11:17:40 pm
Isn’t the point that in order to get to the 50% chance of less then 2 degrees of change we need radical change in lifestyles.

EVs don’t do that. Walking, cycling, veggieness might do.

EVs continue the lifestyle hegemony, but salve consciences.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: grams on October 27, 2019, 06:44:23 am
We don’t really *need* to change our lifestyles; we need to stop releasing greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, which pretty much means stopping burning fossil fuels.

Hypothetically at least, EVs can do that. But only if you can produce, ship, power and scrap them in a way that doesn’t release CO2 (etc) - which is a big if.

There are plenty of other reasons for changing our lifestyles, but climate change per se isn’t one of them.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: sojournermike on October 27, 2019, 10:46:03 am
Absolutely correct about stopping burning fossil fuels. That is the only solution, and is required on a global scale. To all the deniers who say that the UK contribution is so small as to not matter while China continues to burn coal there are two key answers:

1. As a rich nation we have to be taking a lead, or no other nation will follow. This also applies to Europe.

2. The UK is amongst the biggest historic emitters - something like 5th overall in time - and this is why we are a rich nation. Therefore, we have a duty to lead the change and support poorer nations in their development.

There is no if as to whether the UK can be carbon neutral, actually long before 2050. The key question is whether we have the will. We are actually well placed to generate plenty of electricity with wind and (even!) solar, supported by increased nuclear capacity. If we generate a surplus that opens the door to using hydrogen for energy storage and we can also use biomethane for generation. This before we consider lithium for grid scale storage, although it clearly has its place for fast frequency response contracts.

For various reasons, Sue and I needed new cars. The reasons are, unfortunately, not practically negotiable. I wasn’t about to go and buy a gas guzzler. Actually, given my mileage and local grid carbon intensity, my ev will ‘pay’ for itself in co2 terms inside 4 years. Sue’s will probably take a couple of years longer, but it will get there and both are encouraging everyone we meet to think this stuff through. Does it make me feel better - hell yes it’ll hit 60 in under 3,5 seconds, but in terms of being smug, no it’s irrelevant.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: iscunonove on October 27, 2019, 08:17:30 pm
Yep 'free' heat in an ICE vehicle due to thermal inefficiency. (Engine needs to be cooled). But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

Given the figure above: 40% efficient at producing motion, so the other 60% produces heat and noise. Noise doesn't contain much energy, so clearly using a stationary ICE vehicle to produce heat is *more* efficient than using it to get somewhere.

QED.
Far too much heat just for the interior of the car.

We don’t really *need* to change our lifestyles; we need to stop releasing greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, which pretty much means stopping burning fossil fuels.

Hypothetically at least, EVs can do that. But only if you can produce, ship, power and scrap them in a way that doesn’t release CO2 (etc) - which is a big if.

There are plenty of other reasons for changing our lifestyles, but climate change per se isn’t one of them.
Hmmm as you say, possibly easier said than done. Does technology exist or is it going to be developed in the next few years to make/recycle steel without releasing CO2? There's also methane to worry about, a more powerful green house gas than CO2 I understand, and currently on the increase due to flesh manufacture..... and the melting of the tundra.
A change in lifestyle can have a big impact now. Waiting for governments and technology to solve the problem is rather risky don't you think?

On a broader level I'm not sure the entire population of the world can have the lifestyle we all want and expect the natural world to survive, regardless of climate change. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/21/human-race-just-001-of-all-life-but-has-destroyed-over-80-of-wild-mammals-study
Some pretty astonishing 'highlights' :
"Of all the mammals on Earth, 96% are livestock and humans, only 4% are wild mammals."
"Since the rise of human civilisation 83% of wild mammals have been lost (Absolute numbers not species thank goodness!)"
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 27, 2019, 08:28:18 pm
I don't think we're going to get out of this without a big change in lifestyle, be it voluntary and controlled, through lack of option or in response to something (at least ostensibly) unrelated, such as war. "This" being not only climate change etc but the whole world as it now is.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: sojournermike on October 27, 2019, 09:46:22 pm
I don't think we're going to get out of this without a big change in lifestyle, be it voluntary and controlled, through lack of option or in response to something (at least ostensibly) unrelated, such as war. "This" being not only climate change etc but the whole world as it now is.

Yep. That pretty well sums it up.

However, the need to live now doesn’t stop, even if we are headed somewhere else of course.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: sojournermike on October 27, 2019, 09:48:10 pm
Yep 'free' heat in an ICE vehicle due to thermal inefficiency. (Engine needs to be cooled). But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

Given the figure above: 40% efficient at producing motion, so the other 60% produces heat and noise. Noise doesn't contain much energy, so clearly using a stationary ICE vehicle to produce heat is *more* efficient than using it to get somewhere.

QED.
Far too much heat just for the interior of the car.

We don’t really *need* to change our lifestyles; we need to stop releasing greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, which pretty much means stopping burning fossil fuels.

Hypothetically at least, EVs can do that. But only if you can produce, ship, power and scrap them in a way that doesn’t release CO2 (etc) - which is a big if.

There are plenty of other reasons for changing our lifestyles, but climate change per se isn’t one of them.
Hmmm as you say, possibly easier said than done. Does technology exist or is it going to be developed in the next few years to make/recycle steel without releasing CO2? There's also methane to worry about, a more powerful green house gas than CO2 I understand, and currently on the increase due to flesh manufacture..... and the melting of the tundra.
A change in lifestyle can have a big impact now. Waiting for governments and technology to solve the problem is rather risky don't you think?

On a broader level I'm not sure the entire population of the world can have the lifestyle we all want and expect the natural world to survive, regardless of climate change. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/21/human-race-just-001-of-all-life-but-has-destroyed-over-80-of-wild-mammals-study
Some pretty astonishing 'highlights' :
"Of all the mammals on Earth, 96% are livestock and humans, only 4% are wild mammals."
"Since the rise of human civilisation 83% of wild mammals have been lost (Absolute numbers not species thank goodness!)"


Methane is interesting. I do wonder if the focus on agricultural methane is a bit of a smokescreen for the very significant releases from the oil and gas industry, which Trump decided shouldn’t be measured any more...

Whatever, Cusco is right.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: sojournermike on October 27, 2019, 09:51:23 pm
I don't think we're going to get out of this without a big change in lifestyle, be it voluntary and controlled, through lack of option or in response to something (at least ostensibly) unrelated, such as war. "This" being not only climate change etc but the whole world as it now is.

Yep. That pretty well sums it up.

However, the need to live now doesn’t stop, even if we are headed somewhere else of course.

An interesting parallel is that I don’t really believe in land ownership, but necessity means that I own a house. The alternative doesn’t resolve the ownership problem, just means I’d have to pay someone else rent to use what they ‘own’.

We need some very material change, but we need to be practical and we need to recognise that making the change will damage the interests/wealth of some very influential and amoral groups and organisations. They won’t make it easy.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: iscunonove on October 28, 2019, 10:12:03 am
They aren't making it easy. But from a bottom up perspective, how do you persuade people they don't need a big new car to feel fulfilled? Much better to ride a bike all day long and sleep in a bus stop.
Title: Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
Post by: ian on October 28, 2019, 10:28:22 am
I think there's a lot of 'they made me do it.' No one really made us dependent on cars, we volunteered. Sure, people were manipulated, but it wasn't subtle. I know loads of people who've moved out to the country and they'll tell anyone that they have no public transport and they need a fleet of large cars to survive. Undoubtedly they are reliant on having two cars but then they did choose to move to the places they live. No one made them do it, the same way no one made them buy huge cars (the most challenging driving conditions they'll typically face is the gravel driveway).

Sticks and carrots really, the cost of driving needs to reflect the actual costs of driving. There needs to be investment in alternatives (remember, driving is massively subsidised and no one expects it to make a 'profit'), and we need to reduce the inherent convenience of driving. We also need to be clear what the risks of driving are and there should be concomitant responsibilities in operating large, powerful machines. We have done everything in our power to make cars the only travel option while running down the alternatives. That can change but we have to want it to and we have to be willing to make the choices that reduce our dependency.