Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: vermooten on December 01, 2019, 10:34:29 am

Title: Arrivee redesign
Post by: vermooten on December 01, 2019, 10:34:29 am
We've had the new swish design for a while now, and I still can't engage with it. The old design was 'by the people, for the people', I felt some connection with it. The new one, although more professional looking, makes it just another magazine. I don't bother with reading Arrivee now, quick flick through then into the recycling.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kev Sp8 on December 01, 2019, 11:53:15 am
That seems a bit 'cut off your nose to spite your face'. Perhaps the aesthetics aren't to everyone's taste, but the content continues to be superb and varied IMHO.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: andyoxon on December 01, 2019, 01:14:03 pm
I like the varied content of /Vvvvee, and the redesign in general.  Tho... IMO some of the image content is unecessarily large  throughout e.g. the double page spread image of a cut pork pie, which doesn't look that appertising - though I'm sure it tastes great...  ;) 
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: MikeFromLFE on December 01, 2019, 04:14:35 pm
The pie doesn't look in the least appetising. Too much magnification.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 01, 2019, 06:21:15 pm
I thought the double page spread 16-17 in the latest issue was great design, using the grey sky as a naturally contrasting background for the text and leaving the landscape visible.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Philip Whiteman on December 02, 2019, 10:24:18 am
The renewed Arrivee format is great improvement and I am less likely to deposit it in the bin.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: frankly frankie on December 03, 2019, 09:47:11 am
I thought the double page spread 16-17 in the latest issue was great design, using the grey sky as a naturally contrasting background for the text and leaving the landscape visible.

You can't be serious !!  (I assume you mean the spread on 14-15, not 16-17)

And what about the over-enlarged image on 22-23 ?
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 03, 2019, 10:26:36 am
Yes, 14-15, sorry.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Paul H on December 03, 2019, 10:39:31 am
using the grey sky as a naturally contrasting background for the text and leaving the landscape visible.
I wish they wouldn't, looks great but I find it difficult to read.  Boring black text on a white background would be my preference, the content needs to be readable not win an art award.
Otherwise, I like the magazine.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Rod Marton on December 04, 2019, 08:45:08 am
I found several pages of this issue almost unreadable due to the lack of visibility of the text. Some of us are colour-blind and need a reasonable contrast between text and background. So, black on white, please, or even white on black, but no more of this grey on grey.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: LiamFitz on December 04, 2019, 05:20:20 pm
I love what has been done with the magazine.

The old one was great and a lot of people invested a great deal of time trying to make a format fly that was very earthbound. I thing Ged has brought it up to date and if it 'looks like another cycling magazine" I'm not going to moan about following modern good practice.

I can't speak for the accessibility/readability issues but I think the breaking up of the copy into small bits (e.g page 28/29) makes the content more attractive and I think the practice of having photos of cyclists from the front is a great improvement.

I'm sure Ged and Redlight welcome constructive comments but overall I would be willing to bet the vast majority of us think it's brill.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 05, 2019, 01:05:16 pm
I found several pages of this issue almost unreadable due to the lack of visibility of the text. Some of us are colour-blind and need a reasonable contrast between text and background. So, black on white, please, or even white on black, but no more of this grey on grey.

+1

Design top tip:  If it's hard to read (or doesn't make sense) when rendered in greyscale, then it's going to be difficult for people with some form of colourblindness.


Apart from that, and 'Awoowoo' jokes aside, I quite like the new format.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: mattc on December 05, 2019, 08:14:49 pm
p14-15 load of text on grey sky background, much of it unreadable
p26-29 really pretty layout, mostly v readable apart from a daft small script font in places
p38-41 photo captions done RIGHT (on plain boxes)  :thumbsup:

p47 text over foliage
p48 Text over a grey road
p52 Gorgeous Llangrannog - tiny caption for the statue, against grainy green background
p56-57 picture huuugely stretched, possibly deliberately to give space to write the caption over it. But 2 very nice pics on this page  :thumbsup:


And what about the over-enlarged image on 22-23 ?
Actually I quite like the old/fuzzy/low-fi look that page has, suiting the subject matter !


Design top tip:  If it's hard to read (or doesn't make sense) when rendered in greyscale, then it's going to be difficult for people with some form of colourblindness.


Apart from that, and 'Awoowoo' jokes aside, I quite like the new format.
+1

And I'm only slightly red-green colour-blind.

There's just no need for this, and we've been pointing it out since the first redesign issue :(
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 05, 2019, 08:55:49 pm

Design top tip:  If it's hard to read (or doesn't make sense) when rendered in greyscale, then it's going to be difficult for people with some form of colourblindness.


Apart from that, and 'Awoowoo' jokes aside, I quite like the new format.
+1

And I'm only slightly red-green colour-blind.

I think these sort of things are less about colour discrimination, and more that people with colourblindness learn to focus on (sometimes quite small) differences in contrast over differences in colour.  So when people make a colour-only distinction in some design, we're often lost, even if we can discriminate it once we know what to look for.  (See also: The 'small objects don't have colour' phenomenon.)

Looking for hmm-I-think-that's-a-different-batch-of-blue-dye level colour differences is one thing when you're pairing socks or decoding wiring looms, but well into the realm of Type 2 Fun when it comes to reading bodies of text.  Especially if you've swamped out the colour difference with contrast-based camouflage (eg. text over foliage).
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Chris S on December 05, 2019, 09:00:10 pm
I'm (like a lot of people) somewhat, but not debilitatingly colour blind. I couldn't be a pilot, but I can function from day to day.

Generally speaking, if something interests me enough, I'll make an effort to read it - even if it's hard work.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: hellymedic on December 05, 2019, 09:07:04 pm
I could just read pages 14 & 15 with both eyes. (My right eye is 'normal' and my left is damaged by optic neuritis and has poor colour vision & reduced acuity.)

White on pale does create a lack of contrast, which is suboptimal.

It's kind of handy to have eyes I can use to test some things...
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 05, 2019, 09:20:12 pm
Generally speaking, if something interests me enough, I'll make an effort to read it - even if it's hard work.

+1

The lesson is therefore to either write interesting articles, or make your designs easily accessible to your readers.  Given that the average Awoowoo article is a variation on the same "We went for a long bike ride.  There was Weather.   We sheltered in a fuel station eating Frijj and Ginsters.  Someone had a puncture, then their pump fell apart.  There was a bastard hill.  My knees hurt.  The organisers laid on a fantastic spread of CAKE.  Stopped for a snooze in a ditch and was molested by a sheep.  There was headwind.  Finished with an hour in hand.  Still got neuropathy 6 weeks later." theme, it seems extra important to make an effort with the design.  I'd say the more interesting use of photographs[1] in the new format is doing just that, occasionally to the detriment of the text.



[1] I, for one, mostly read Arivee to look at the pictures.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Manotea on December 05, 2019, 11:17:35 pm
I'm not missing the 5 or 6 pages of text giving the blow by blow - or should that be gingster by gingster - account of a fortnight tour. The new design and editorial style might feel a bit more - for want of a better term - tabloid/graphic comic -  but the end result is - for me at least - much more accessible and engaging.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Jaded on December 06, 2019, 12:04:17 am
I've not much liked the blow by blow accounts either - except mine, of course  ;)
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Karla on December 06, 2019, 12:16:32 am
I've always liked your blows too.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Jaded on December 06, 2019, 12:18:11 am
 :-*
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 06, 2019, 09:28:28 am
I could just read pages 14 & 15 with both eyes. (My right eye is 'normal' and my left is damaged by optic neuritis and has poor colour vision & reduced acuity.)

White on pale does create a lack of contrast, which is suboptimal.

It's kind of handy to have eyes I can use to test some things...
Whereas to me, those pages are white text on dark, but varying shades of dark.

Clearly this is something that needs thinking about but I expect it's difficult to design with colour in a way that it is visually appealing to colour-viewers and legible to colour-non-viewers without having some relevant input. Maybe a colour blind audaxer needs to volunteer to give the pages a once-over before they go to print.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: frankly frankie on December 06, 2019, 09:50:23 am
It doesn't need thinking about at all - publishers and designers have known and understood the issues with text and backgrounds forever.
It's just a question of whether you go safe (criticised above as 'earthbound') or edgy, and how much.  Personally I think the designer is reaching out to an audience that doesn't quite match AUK's ackowledged demographic.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: hellymedic on December 06, 2019, 12:40:14 pm
I think frankie has it. Black on white has maximal contrast (why do you think this is used for eye tests?) but seems stuffy and BORING.

At least there are few fancy fonts...
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: quixoticgeek on December 06, 2019, 12:51:38 pm
I think frankie has it. Black on white has maximal contrast (why do you think this is used for eye tests?) but seems stuffy and BORING.

At least there are few fancy fonts...

But white on black is easier for some people to read.

J
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: bludger on December 06, 2019, 01:00:16 pm
I think the YACF desktop interface is a nice compromise. I receive the contrast as good, but don't feel I've bright white laser beams being fired into my eyes.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: frankly frankie on December 06, 2019, 01:06:26 pm
But white on black is easier for some people to read.

It was the preferred choice for car number plates, back in the day.  In absolute terms it may be more legible.   But in general white text on black is frowned upon.  For example in website design it's pretty poor form.  (see my website link << for example  ::-) )
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: De Sisti on December 06, 2019, 01:13:49 pm
I found several pages of this issue almost unreadable due to the lack of visibility of the text.
Which pages?
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: FifeingEejit on December 06, 2019, 01:28:28 pm
But white on black is easier for some people to read.

It was the preferred choice for car number plates, back in the day. 

That was partly to do with the developments in retroreflectives that had advantages beyond just the polis' ability to read plates in the dark.
It's also sort of in the Venice convention, many of the convention signatory countries ignore either the white front plate or the yellow back plate rules...
Arguably the german and belgian white rear plates are the worst offenders as they also fail the rules against showing a white light to the rear while in forward motion.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Rod Marton on December 06, 2019, 02:18:08 pm
I found several pages of this issue almost unreadable due to the lack of visibility of the text.
Which pages?
Pages 14, 15 and 26 were the worst offenders, with the text almost invisible in places, but pages 10, 11, 21, 22 and 23 were not easy to read. Admittedly I have a rare and unusually severe form of colourblindness (technically I have two of the common forms simultaneously), but it seems clear from this thread that other people have had problems with this issue too.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: trekker12 on December 06, 2019, 04:19:59 pm
I think the YACF desktop interface is a nice compromise. I receive the contrast as good, but don't feel I've bright white laser beams being fired into my eyes.

It's also more subtle when reading at work!
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: De Sisti on December 06, 2019, 04:38:59 pm
I found several pages of this issue almost unreadable due to the lack of visibility of the text.
Which pages?
Pages 14, 15 and 26 were the worst offenders, with the text almost invisible in places, but pages 10, 11, 21, 22 and 23 were not easy to read. Admittedly I have a rare and unusually severe form of colourblindness (technically I have two of the common forms simultaneously), but it seems clear from this thread that other people have had problems with this issue too.
Your eyesight is probably waining? I wear glassess for reading and didn't have any problems
reading the articles on the pages you mentioned. Consider getting your eyes tested to make
sure it catches any degeneration.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: hellymedic on December 06, 2019, 05:01:02 pm
I don't think you understand colour-blindness.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 06, 2019, 05:08:01 pm
I could just read pages 14 & 15 with both eyes. (My right eye is 'normal' and my left is damaged by optic neuritis and has poor colour vision & reduced acuity.)

White on pale does create a lack of contrast, which is suboptimal.

It's kind of handy to have eyes I can use to test some things...
Whereas to me, those pages are white text on dark, but varying shades of dark.

Clearly this is something that needs thinking about but I expect it's difficult to design with colour in a way that it is visually appealing to colour-viewers and legible to colour-non-viewers without having some relevant input. Maybe a colour blind audaxer needs to volunteer to give the pages a once-over before they go to print.

It's pretty straightforward: Just render your design as greyscale and check if it still works.  If not, go and pick some different colours.  No actual understanding of colourblindnesses required, and you've just made your design compatible with mono printing, too.

If you get to the point where none of the colours you want to use will work, then you need to re-evaluate your priorities regarding the relative importance of design wank and accessibility, and possibly consider a career in architecture.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 06, 2019, 05:31:39 pm
It being straightforward doesn't really help if no one's doing it though.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Jaded on December 06, 2019, 05:52:24 pm
I could just read pages 14 & 15 with both eyes. (My right eye is 'normal' and my left is damaged by optic neuritis and has poor colour vision & reduced acuity.)

White on pale does create a lack of contrast, which is suboptimal.

It's kind of handy to have eyes I can use to test some things...
Whereas to me, those pages are white text on dark, but varying shades of dark.

Clearly this is something that needs thinking about but I expect it's difficult to design with colour in a way that it is visually appealing to colour-viewers and legible to colour-non-viewers without having some relevant input. Maybe a colour blind audaxer needs to volunteer to give the pages a once-over before they go to print.

It's pretty straightforward: Just render your design as greyscale and check if it still works.  If not, go and pick some different colours.  No actual understanding of colourblindnesses required, and you've just made your design compatible with mono printing, too.

If you get to the point where none of the colours you want to use will work, then you need to re-evaluate your priorities regarding the relative importance of design wank and accessibility, and possibly consider a career in architecture.

Get an app for your phone that mimics colourblindness
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 06, 2019, 06:39:13 pm
I could just read pages 14 & 15 with both eyes. (My right eye is 'normal' and my left is damaged by optic neuritis and has poor colour vision & reduced acuity.)

White on pale does create a lack of contrast, which is suboptimal.

It's kind of handy to have eyes I can use to test some things...
Whereas to me, those pages are white text on dark, but varying shades of dark.

Clearly this is something that needs thinking about but I expect it's difficult to design with colour in a way that it is visually appealing to colour-viewers and legible to colour-non-viewers without having some relevant input. Maybe a colour blind audaxer needs to volunteer to give the pages a once-over before they go to print.

It's pretty straightforward: Just render your design as greyscale and check if it still works.  If not, go and pick some different colours.  No actual understanding of colourblindnesses required, and you've just made your design compatible with mono printing, too.

If you get to the point where none of the colours you want to use will work, then you need to re-evaluate your priorities regarding the relative importance of design wank and accessibility, and possibly consider a career in architecture.

Get an app for your phone that mimics colourblindness

Now (if you're doing it right) you're iteratively testing for maybe the 5 main types of colourblindness.  And faffing around with getting your design into a phone, presumably by doing something nasty like pointing the phone camera at a computer screen, which isn't exactly conducive to consistent colour calibration.

Obviously there's a time and a place for this sort of simulation (though it's much simpler if you do it on the same computer you're doing your graphic design in), but we're talking about laying out a magazine for Audax enthusiasts, not designing a GUI for the next version of Outlook.  The "does it work in greyscale" heuristic is usually good enough to get most people with normal colour vision to stop thinking in colour, and has obvious real-world advantages where laser printers and photocopiers are involved.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Rod Marton on December 06, 2019, 06:56:14 pm
I found several pages of this issue almost unreadable due to the lack of visibility of the text.
Which pages?
Pages 14, 15 and 26 were the worst offenders, with the text almost invisible in places, but pages 10, 11, 21, 22 and 23 were not easy to read. Admittedly I have a rare and unusually severe form of colourblindness (technically I have two of the common forms simultaneously), but it seems clear from this thread that other people have had problems with this issue too.
Your eyesight is probably waining? I wear glassess for reading and didn't have any problems
reading the articles on the pages you mentioned. Consider getting your eyes tested to make
sure it catches any degeneration.
Colourblindness is genetic, so doesn't change over your lifetime.

There are a number of ways in which vision can degenerate with age, presbyopia being best known, but also relevant is the reduction in the transmission of the lens due to the buildup of advanced glycolated end products. I'm quite old enough to suffer from the former, but being shortsighted it isn't really a problem for reading. For the latter, AGE level is dependent on lifestyle, so being a cyclist means that mine is unusually low for my age.

As you can probably guess from the above, I work in ophthalmic instrumentation and am very familiar with the performance of the eye.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 06, 2019, 07:12:22 pm
The "does it work in greyscale" heuristic is usually good enough to get most people with normal colour vision to stop thinking in colour, and has obvious real-world advantages where laser printers and photocopiers are involved.
But you don't want them to stop thinking in colour. If they do that, the magazine will look crap to the vast majority of its readers, who have full colour vision. Unless of course you're actually going to print it in black and white, which might be worth considering for other reasons. But barring that, surely what you want them to do is stop thinking only in colour, and produce a magazine which works well in both colour and colour-blind vision? If designing it in colour and looking at it in greyscale works to produce that, then all good. Probably.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Jaded on December 06, 2019, 07:15:46 pm
The "does it work in greyscale" heuristic is usually good enough to get most people with normal colour vision to stop thinking in colour, and has obvious real-world advantages where laser printers and photocopiers are involved.
But you don't want them to stop thinking in colour. If they do that, the magazine will look crap to the vast majority of its readers, who have full colour vision. Unless of course you're actually going to print it in black and white, which might be worth considering for other reasons. But barring that, surely what you want them to do is stop thinking only in colour, and produce a magazine which works well in both colour and colour-blind vision? If designing it in colour and looking at it in greyscale works to produce that, then all good. Probably.

Quite.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 06, 2019, 07:27:15 pm
The "does it work in greyscale" heuristic is usually good enough to get most people with normal colour vision to stop thinking in colour, and has obvious real-world advantages where laser printers and photocopiers are involved.
But you don't want them to stop thinking in colour.

Only for long enough to see if they've made an insufficient contrast error.  IME people with normal colour vision seem to find it hard to ignore colour differences for long enough to pay much attention[1] to contrast.  It's obviously going to be an iterative process if you're designing for more than one use case like that.


[1] Indeed, it often seems to override the presence of text or pictograms - just ask a colour vision person what the blinkenlights on some gadget are doing, and see how they reply.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 06, 2019, 07:34:51 pm
Seems to me that what we need is not for designers to stop thinking in colour but to start thinking in shade contrast too. (I've called this "shade contrast" because colour is also a contrast; there might well be a better term than "shade".)
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: hellymedic on December 06, 2019, 08:07:45 pm
With some forms of reduced colour perception, some things that seem midway down the grey scale seem nearly 'black' and some seem nearly 'white'.

It's not ALWAYS just a matter of rendering into greyscale.

I frequently play my right eye off against my left. For ME (only really) blue is good, yellow is poor and red is very, very variable.

Style vs substance will always be an issue as soon as there are readers whose vision isn't A1
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: grams on December 06, 2019, 09:24:30 pm
The areas that have been flagged all seem equally problematic to non-colourblind readers, so really they just need to raise their threshold for minimum acceptable legible contrast.

OTOH we are load of idjits on the internet demanding volunteers trying their best in their spare time do better, which is a bit rubbish.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Jaded on December 06, 2019, 10:27:31 pm
The areas that have been flagged all seem equally problematic to non-colourblind readers, so really they just need to raise their threshold for minimum acceptable legible contrast.

OTOH we are load of idjits on the internet demanding volunteers trying their best in their spare time do better, which is a bit rubbish.

Somewhat agreed. I think that if there are vision experts available, they can:

volunteer their expertise at the point that it can make a difference
or
sort of do something else after the fact
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: hellymedic on December 06, 2019, 10:47:14 pm
I think the Arrivée editorial team are doing a great job. I don't want to decry/disparage their efforts.

I think the lot of visually challenged readers could be improved if a .txt file for the articles were downloadable. File size of .txt is TINY.

Readers can then manipulate fonts, sizes and colours on their own screens and/or printers.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Jaded on December 06, 2019, 10:51:43 pm
I agree. The team of volunteers does very well.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Redlight on December 07, 2019, 10:47:48 am
I've passed all the constructive comments here on to Ged and I know he will take them into account when working on the designs for the next edition.  That doesn't mean that we will revert to everything being in black 12pt on a white background but, hopefully, we should avoid anything being unreadable by the majority of readers.

As an aside, it's worth bearing in mind that (a) from what people have said on here, colour blindness is a complex condition and what is clear to one sufferer may be a challenge for another. It's hard to be certain that every reader will be able to read everything easily, so please don't think that it's intentional; and (b) sometimes things don't look exactly as they did on the screen when they are printed.

I will also look into the idea of making the text files of articles available on line, possibly as part of an AUK Archive.

That aside, submissions are invited for the next issue....
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Jaded on December 07, 2019, 01:23:12 pm
For accessibility: For a local magazine produced in InDesign we make sure the stories are tagged, then output as a pdf. I then open it in Acrobat and save as accessible text, then make the text file available online. It isn’t perfect, but pdfs do not work in text readers.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 07, 2019, 04:22:48 pm
I think the Arrivée editorial team are doing a great job. I don't want to decry/disparage their efforts.

I think the lot of visually challenged readers could be improved if a .txt file for the articles were downloadable. File size of .txt is TINY.

Readers can then manipulate fonts, sizes and colours on their own screens and/or printers.
Neat idea! Or at least it seems so to me.

For those who also have Cycle magazine (my copy always arrives a day after or before Arrivee: spooky!), how legible do you find the black-on-clouds text in the top right corner of p45? And the blue on blue eg p14?
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: mattc on December 07, 2019, 05:43:52 pm
P14 fine (although the ad on 15 is pretty poor!)
P45 is passable (the author name in Orange is not)
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 07, 2019, 06:43:48 pm
(although the ad on 15 is pretty poor!)
I don't think the magazine design team have any say over ads! But in fact the positioning of the white text over the yellow road line is a bit unclear for me too, though it's fine on the grey road surface.
Quote
P45 is passable (the author name in Orange is not)
Hadn't even thought about the orange text! Now you've pointed it out, I can see that if your eyes don't respond well to orange, it's dark on dark. (And how does that make ACB jerseys look?!!!)
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 07, 2019, 07:19:27 pm
but pdfs do not work in text readers.

Not strictly true.  It's possible to craft a PDF that's accessible given sufficient fucking about in Acrobat (especially where forms are involved), but they still tend to be a pain for the user to navigate compared to plain text or simple HTML.  Irritatingly, the pragmatic gold standard for screenreader accessibility appears to be MS Word (assuming proper use of styles for headings), and it's also reasonably friendly for non-expert users with specific font/colour requirements.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: mattc on December 07, 2019, 08:03:59 pm
(although the ad on 15 is pretty poor!)
I don't think the magazine design team have any say over ads! But in fact the positioning of the white text over the yellow road line is a bit unclear for me too, though it's fine on the grey road surface.
You see?!? This is exactly the issue!!! :)

Quote
Quote
P45 is passable (the author name in Orange is not)
Hadn't even thought about the orange text! Now you've pointed it out, I can see that if your eyes don't respond well to orange, it's dark on dark. (And how does that make ACB jerseys look?!!!)
Well, I can see orange* - it's just a lot less distinct in that example than the monochrome text under it.

*Other flavours of colour-blind peeps may have issues, I don't know.
I'm not an expert on rods-and-cones and all that. But generally I'd say coulour-blindness doesn't affect the amount of response  or "brightness" or whatever. It's just that I cannot easily tell a very dark green from black, say - whereas you "Norms" might quite easily. Same with orange-y reds.

I have the coloured-dot pattern books at home if you want to come round and play with them :)  Bear in mind that I will see certain patterns that you CANT, so prepare to feel inferior  :smug:
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 07, 2019, 08:26:47 pm
Bear in mind that I will see certain patterns that you CANT, so prepare to feel inferior  :smug:
We're all accustomed to that by now.  :P
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 07, 2019, 09:55:28 pm
But generally I'd say coulour-blindness doesn't affect the amount of response  or "brightness" or whatever.

Generally true for the most common green receptor anomalies.  Some of the rarer ones do: eg. my defective red receptor means I perceive red as less intense than an equivalent green or blue.  When that's not mucking up my ability to differentiate green from yellow, and blue from purple, it's causing darker reds to appear black (and giving me immunity to 'blinding' brake lights).

Fortunately dark red on black (or vice-versa) is a relatively uncommon typesetting mistake, at least for body text.  It's more of a GUI thing (where designers like to 'light up' black elements by turning them red).
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: hellymedic on December 08, 2019, 12:07:22 am
I think the Arrivée editorial team are doing a great job. I don't want to decry/disparage their efforts.

I think the lot of visually challenged readers could be improved if a .txt file for the articles were downloadable. File size of .txt is TINY.

Readers can then manipulate fonts, sizes and colours on their own screens and/or printers.
Neat idea! Or at least it seems so to me.

For those who also have Cycle magazine (my copy always arrives a day after or before Arrivee: spooky!), how legible do you find the black-on-clouds text in the top right corner of p45? And the blue on blue eg p14?

Arrivée is 4 copies per year, Cycle is 6. They will only coincide about twice per year.

I was fine with black on clouds BUT the orange text almost disappeared.
Blue on blue was fine FOR ME but I speak only for ME with MY individual issues.

I have just returned from the British Astronomical Association's Christmas Lecture.

I was well-impressed by the font one speaker used (of mostly white text) on a variety of coloured backgrounds; it had a very subtle black shadowing to the right and base, enhancing contrast.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: frankly frankie on December 08, 2019, 10:41:16 am
(although the ad on 15 is pretty poor!)
I don't think the magazine design team have any say over ads! But in fact the positioning of the white text over the yellow road line is a bit unclear for me too, though it's fine on the grey road surface.
You see?!? This is exactly the issue!!! :)

Do you care, if you can't read an ad ??
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: mattc on December 08, 2019, 02:51:22 pm
No.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: hellymedic on December 08, 2019, 03:46:35 pm
Any advertiser whose announcement is illegible or repellent won't get my custom.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 08, 2019, 04:52:44 pm
Any advertiser whose announcement is illegible or repellent won't get my custom.

This was why, until regulation forced the issue, television adverts had a much higher rate and better quality of subtitling than the programmes.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: dogtrousers on December 09, 2019, 01:50:28 pm
Note from a not-super-keen audaxer.  I've been a member for maybe 4 or 5 years.  My initial impression when I first joined was that Arivee was dull as ditchwater to me, but probably of interest to more serious Audaxers, who would recognise themselves or their friends/acquaintances  (This is entirely fair enough and not a complaint at all. I don't expect AUK to pander to my whims).   Of late it's been much more engaging, and I actually spent a bit of time reading the most recent issues.

My colour vision is pretty bad/weird.  I don't remember running into any problems with the latest one, but I may well have stopped reading and just looked at the pictures, which I tend to do.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: pangolin on December 10, 2019, 09:39:05 am
There are tools for checking whether contrast is good enough without reducing things to grayscale.

https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/ (https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/)
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: roger on December 15, 2019, 03:41:08 pm
The Times contains many examples of this technique every day. I find that I can read all. FWIW it is printed on a "matt" background.
I have no knowledge of the printing techniques involved and believe the editorial team should investigate and trial future techniques. Perhaps we should have a production team.
One of my family had/has red green difficulty, but could identify football team colours on our black and white set. Perhaps he had a good memory.
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Kim on December 16, 2019, 12:41:11 pm
One of my family had/has red green difficulty, but could identify football team colours on our black and white set. Perhaps he had a good memory.

Or could spot the dot crawl...
Title: Re: Arrivee redesign
Post by: Redlight on December 17, 2019, 09:15:33 pm
I believe the editorial team should investigate and trial future techniques. Perhaps we should have a production team.

Fair points, but bear in mind that the editorial and production team comprises one volunteer editor and one volunteer designer/production manager/ advertising co-ordinator. Both are paid for their work but at well, well below normal market rate.  Like event organisers, they do it for the love, in between their day jobs.