Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Ctrl-Alt-Del => Topic started by: rogerzilla on January 26, 2020, 03:57:07 pm

Title: Windows 10
Post by: rogerzilla on January 26, 2020, 03:57:07 pm
Forced to install this shite because Windows 7 has gone out of support.  ZOMG the installation process is bad.  And it's overwritten my Linux bootloader without so much as a warning.  I only ever use Windows to update satnav devices these days.  Anyone else find it dumbed-down, excessively intrusive and frankly terrible?
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: fuaran on January 26, 2020, 04:11:53 pm
I installed it on my mums PC yesterday, was quite impressed at how quick and easy it was. Aside from the slightly hidden option to create a local account, instead of a Microsoft account. Quite simple to turn off most features that send data to Microsoft. Don't have a microphone to use Cortana etc anyway.

The default interface is a bit annoying, but can disable a lot of stuff to make it more usable.
Generally seems a lot more stable than Windows 7. Not too slow, even on an older PC, I upgraded the RAM anyway.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Kim on January 26, 2020, 04:15:44 pm
Forced to install this shite because Windows 7 has gone out of support.  ZOMG the installation process is bad.  And it's overwritten my Linux bootloader without so much as a warning.  I only ever use Windows to update satnav devices these days.  Anyone else find it dumbed-down, excessively intrusive and frankly terrible?

I have as little to do with it as possible, so can't really say whether it's bad or not, but:

- Frequent, intrusively large updates.
- All the usual Windows stuff is hidden.  I keep failing to find the device manager.
- As mentioned, it likes to shit all over your bootloader.  To be fair, Windows has been doing this since at least 2000, the new development is that it occasionally gets clever and spontaneously tries to repair itself, so you don't get any warning.
- Performance seems decent enough.  Certainly a big improvement on 8.
- Tangential grumbles relating to UEFA bioses, which aren't technically Window's fault.


If you're literally just applying updates to a GPS, you could follow my approach of running an evaluation version of Win10 LTSB[1] edition in VMWare Player, which I use for running Basecamp, the XFP fire panel configuration software, and occasional forays into the CrossMgr suite when I don't have the BHPC laptop to hand.  If you don't have a valid licence, Windows shuts itself down after an hour, but is otherwise fully functional.  For some reason I can't get to the bottom of, giving WVware focus seems to break the shift key in Linux, but that can be cured by running setxkbmap.


[1] Windows 10 Enterprise without Edge, Cortina and most of the bloat, intended for systems where the computer acts as a frontend to expensive industrial/medical hardware that does something rather more important than running Excel and accessing Facebook.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Jurek on January 26, 2020, 04:20:42 pm
I installed it on my mums PC yesterday, was quite impressed at how quick and easy it was. Aside from the slightly hidden option to create a local account, instead of a Microsoft account. Quite simple to turn off most features that send data to Microsoft. Don't have a microphone to use Cortana etc anyway.

The default interface is a bit annoying, but can disable a lot of stuff to make it more usable.
Generally seems a lot more stable than Windows 7. Not too slow, even on an older PC, I upgraded the RAM anyway.

My bold.
This.

Also, is it me, or is there a similarity between the stunning scenery used in the screensaver images of Windows 10 and the Desktop images which Apple have been using in their OS for the last six, maybe seven, maybe more, years?
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: rogerzilla on January 26, 2020, 04:29:24 pm
Yeah, they can FRO if they think I'm going to set up a Microsoft account

Next job is to make a Mint bootable USB so I can get the bootloader back.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: fuaran on January 26, 2020, 05:07:58 pm
- All the usual Windows stuff is hidden.  I keep failing to find the device manager.
Right click on the start button, or press Windows + X.
That has some useful shortcuts to a variety of admin tools. eg Task manager, device manager, powershell.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Kim on January 26, 2020, 05:22:42 pm
Right click on the start button, or press Windows + X.
That has some useful shortcuts to a variety of admin tools. eg Task manager, device manager, powershell.

Barakta taught me that one last week.  It has greatly improved my Windows experience.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Phil W on January 26, 2020, 05:36:40 pm
Or just click the start button and start typing in the name of what you are looking for. Can’t remember last time I navigated to stuff via the menus but defo pre windows 7 (when the search functionality appeared), so pre 2009.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Kim on January 26, 2020, 05:38:27 pm
Or just click the start button and start typing in the name of what you are looking for.

That's fine when you can remember what Windows calls things.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Phil W on January 26, 2020, 05:38:52 pm
Or just click the start button and start typing in the name of what you are looking for. Can’t remember last time I navigated to stuff via the menus but defo pre windows 7 (when the search functionality appeared).

That's fine when you can remember what Windows calls things.

That’s true of any operating system.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Kim on January 26, 2020, 05:41:29 pm
Or just click the start button and start typing in the name of what you are looking for. Can’t remember last time I navigated to stuff via the menus but defo pre windows 7 (when the search functionality appeared).

That's fine when you can remember what Windows calls things.

That’s true of any operating system.

Of course.  But I'm fluent in *nix, rusty in Windows and computer literate, so poking around a hierachy of utilities and settings is more likely to lead me to the right place quickly than trying to remember the names for things.

(Credit where it's due:  This is the good way round.  It's generally much harder for a Microsoft person to find what they're looking for on a Linux system, not least because most of the GUI tools are a trap.)
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: FifeingEejit on January 26, 2020, 05:42:43 pm
Or just click the start button and start typing in the name of what you are looking for. Can’t remember last time I navigated to stuff via the menus but defo pre windows 7 (when the search functionality appeared), so pre 2009.

Aye, been doing that since Windows Vista.
Going back to the XP image for legacy support is "interesting".
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Phil W on January 26, 2020, 05:46:59 pm
Or just click the start button and start typing in the name of what you are looking for. Can’t remember last time I navigated to stuff via the menus but defo pre windows 7 (when the search functionality appeared).

That's fine when you can remember what Windows calls things.

That’s true of any operating system.

Of course.  But I'm fluent in *nix, rusty in Windows and computer literate, so poking around a hierachy of utilities and settings is more likely to lead me to the right place quickly than trying to remember the names for things.

(Credit where it's due:  This is the good way round.  It's generally much harder for a Microsoft person to find what they're looking for on a Linux system.)

Oh there’s a hierarchy in Windows as well but you still need to know how that is organised and what the thing you are looking for is likely called. It’s just a case of better the devil you know with all this stuff. Familiarity and frequency of use and all that...
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Phil W on January 26, 2020, 05:53:57 pm
Windows 10 also has a Linux subsystem for Windows as well if you want to do Linux command line stuff directly (in Windows).  It's an optional component so you need to add it in Windows features under add / remove programs.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Feanor on January 26, 2020, 06:01:38 pm
Control Panelly stuff is now a totally fragmented nightmare.

There are new shiny interfaces which present some but not all of the configuration options, and try to be smart and hide stuff from you.

It takes a bit of digging to find the 'proper' UI which exposes all the stuff like it always did.
They are still there, it's just harder to find them
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: rogerzilla on January 26, 2020, 07:35:27 pm
Back into dual boot after loading Mint onto a USB stick and running a boot repair application.

When did applications in Windows become "apps"?  It's like hearing your dad saying something is "sick" or "dench"  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 27, 2020, 03:57:03 am
Control Panelly stuff is now a totally fragmented nightmare.

This ^^^^.  I want the person who decided randomly to distribute Stuffs between Control Panel and Settings tracked down, I want them shot, and I want it done yesterday.

OTOH my keyboard, which celebrates its thirtieth birthday in a few weeks time, still works.  Take that, Sonos!
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: ElyDave on January 27, 2020, 07:03:29 am
teh one that really pissed me off was removal of the photo editor, that was immensely useful when puling together my closing meeting presentations, now made far more tedious and longwinded, and powerpoint seems to have developed an aversion to actually compressing photos when asked to do so.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: ian on January 27, 2020, 09:28:40 am
I did hear a horrible rumour that the mothership wasn't supplying Macs to suitably enabled subdeck minions. I don't think I can handle any fate that involves Windows 10. I think my Macbook Pro is going to be in service for a long, long time...
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: T42 on January 27, 2020, 10:14:42 am
I heard from a couple of places that W7 and a decent antivirus should be safe enough, so I just turned off W7 updates.  I have stuff I wrote under VB6 that I don't want to lose, and my development environment runs under W7's XP emulation.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: ian on January 27, 2020, 11:30:25 am
Hamid, who has the privilege of sitting next to me aboard the mothership and has the standard-issue Win 10, seems to spend half of every day on the phone to IT support for some reason or other, but mostly pleas to 'make it work.'
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: ian on January 27, 2020, 12:16:33 pm
Ironically, I let IT get their claws into my Macbook, and now Safari quits randomly and it takes twice as long to start up (still about six weeks faster than Windows, mind), and there's no longer any opportunity to defer any system update to a sensible time. You have five minutes to reach a minimum safe distance. I discovered this 'feature' while presenting to 450 people via Webex. And yup, it was a 5GB complete OS incremental update.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: quixoticgeek on January 27, 2020, 12:42:27 pm
(Credit where it's due:  This is the good way round.  It's generally much harder for a Microsoft person to find what they're looking for on a Linux system, not least because most of the GUI tools are a trap.)

I find the fastest way of finding how to do something on any OS, is to declare loudly on twitter that it is impossible to do what I want to do on the platform I want to do it. A man appears within seconds to tell me how to do it. It's faster than google every single time...

J
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Kim on January 27, 2020, 12:46:03 pm
(Credit where it's due:  This is the good way round.  It's generally much harder for a Microsoft person to find what they're looking for on a Linux system, not least because most of the GUI tools are a trap.)

I find the fastest way of finding how to do something on any OS, is to declare loudly on twitter that it is impossible to do what I want to do on the platform I want to do it. A man appears within seconds to tell me how to do it. It's faster than google every single time...

Of course, you've still got to filter through all the messages from people telling you you should be using $other_platform...
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: ian on January 27, 2020, 12:50:32 pm
I confess that I can never find anything on Linux (and adding something to a menu seems impressively tortuous) – I can usually dig through my memory midden to remember where something is on Windows, but yes, just changing screen size seems a nightmare, settings are splattered all over the place. On a Mac I just bang cmd-space and start typing which seems to the way it ought to work (and if you want to add something to the dock, just drag it there).
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: quixoticgeek on January 27, 2020, 12:55:55 pm
I confess that I can never find anything on Linux (and adding something to a menu seems impressively tortuous) – I can usually dig through my memory midden to remember where something is on Windows, but yes, just changing screen size seems a nightmare, settings are splattered all over the place. On a Mac I just bang cmd-space and start typing which seems to the way it ought to work (and if you want to add something to the dock, just drag it there).

With Linux there is no One True Way™, after booting my laptop and logging in, you are presented with a completely black screen. As an experiment, I once got a friend who was paid a high 5 figures as a linux sys admin and challenged them to open a terminal on my system. I gave him 15 minutes. He couldn't work it out.

I've been using the same window mangler since early this millennium, and so the short cuts are all just muscle memory. I know it's bloody obscure, they didn't call it evilwm for no reason. But because I know how to use it, it's incredibly efficient for screen real estate, and I can get a lot more on my screen than many, meaning I can get away with a smaller screen than most.

In your example, add something to a menu? On my laptop, what menu?

J
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: ian on January 27, 2020, 12:59:54 pm
I did find a Mac-alike desktop manager for Ubuntu, but it was still painful. I don't use Linux often, most of the statistical shenanigans I can now do on a Mac. The only time I use Windows is when presenting on the 'official' laptop because some people find swapping an HDMI plug challenging.

As ever, much of it is familiarity. Windows users get trained by its idiosyncrasies. Sometimes this happens before the inevitable madness.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: CommuteTooFar on January 27, 2020, 01:39:45 pm
One of the problem with Macs is the price. Take a look at the recent Mac Pro. Want a video card,  On the PC an AMD Radeon RX 380 can be found for around £180.  The cost of a Radeon Pro RX 380 (slightly better) for your Mac Pro will set you back ten times that amount.   In design terms its better than the waste basket and is very nicely built. The price of the system is insane. You can have castors for the case but would you pay that much (£580)?  The 'old' technology can be forgiven they probably specified the Intel Xeon processor before the Epyc / Threadripper emerged to make that a very stupid choice. What can not be forgiven is the insistence that you must use Apple parts.  The hardware or operating system does not mandate this. Take storage an Apple storage device must be fitted to the machine or it will not boot.  Connect your favourite Chinese/Taiwanese/Korean usb stick copy MacOs to it boot off it with a Mac storage device in the machine.  Will not boot if the unused Mac device is not there.  Why do this?

To be fair you can probably find some very expensive absurdly idiosyncratic Windows boxes.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: ian on January 27, 2020, 01:48:01 pm
Well, that's the Apple business model. People like me don't care what the video card is, we just care that it works and does whatever it does in a spritely fashion and honestly, I'm happy to pay more for simplicity. That's not for everyone, of course, but there are other computers.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: rogerzilla on January 27, 2020, 04:21:18 pm
All working fine except that the slightly dubious licence key I got from the Bay of Thieves doesn't work.  Waiting for a new one.  Does anyone actually pay £120 for it?  If push comes to shove, I'll update my satnavs on someone else's machine.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: rogerzilla on January 27, 2020, 04:36:36 pm
Oh well.  The old Win7 key activated it!
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Ben T on January 27, 2020, 05:05:01 pm
Would it not be cheaper to just get a garmin that you can just copy gpx files to via USB from any OS, like an eTrex 30, than get a whole new computer / OS   ;D ::-)
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: pdm on January 27, 2020, 05:38:34 pm
I now use Windo$e for very little - occasionally for Mapsource to send stuff to an Etrex.
All other stuff is doable under my Linux systems more quickly and efficiently.
What I do is run a Win10 image under VirtualBox when I need it. This has the advantage that I can keep a vanilla backup of if unused in case of 1) silly infestations from the internet - not had any yet being a low users but here's hoping! - and 2) easy to copy it to another machine if needed without reinstalling everything.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: rogerzilla on January 27, 2020, 05:39:01 pm
It's the car satnavs, too.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: TheLurker on January 27, 2020, 08:45:27 pm
I shall be given a new work W10 laptop tomorrow.  I am not looking forward to it.  I've been using the NT UI since the early 90s* and I am well and truly habituated if not indoctrinated.  I think know this is going to be painful.



* It was so long ago that my first ever NT installation was from 31 floppy disks and there was prob. with the drive which meant every single disk had to inserted, ejected and then re-inserted to carry on.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Ham on January 27, 2020, 09:27:46 pm
In which case you might be interested to know that Quicklaunch toolbar is still available (and available inside W10), as compared to the standard w10 method of "pinning" stuff  that shifts around and may be an open window or may be an application to launch. It's far more efficient on screen real estate than anything else, win or mac, squeezing four single click launches in the space of one.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: ian on January 28, 2020, 08:48:57 am
I shall be given a new work W10 laptop tomorrow.  I am not looking forward to it.  I've been using the NT UI since the early 90s* and I am well and truly habituated if not indoctrinated.  I think know this is going to be painful.



* It was so long ago that my first ever NT installation was from 31 floppy disks and there was prob. with the drive which meant every single disk had to inserted, ejected and then re-inserted to carry on.

Oh god, I remember installing things via the 'insert disk 28 now' route. Which is disk 28? you'd panic, scrabbling through an unruly pile of disks you'd tipped out of a box.

In other news, since IT thrust their grubby fingers into my Macbook pie, I'm also impressed they've inserted proxy settings into Safari that mean I can't access any of our own products. Basically they send traffic by a third system which is supposed to protect us from nasties and, erm, inadvertently downloading pictures of ladies/gentlemen [delete as appropriate] who have misplaced many items of their clothing. I'm pretty sure none of our products deliver this experience. It seems to mung the URL path which our servers don't like. Cannot find server, bleats Safari. All a bit pointless, since they don't seem to have fudged Chrome.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Ham on January 28, 2020, 04:23:21 pm
... inadvertently downloading pictures of ladies/gentlemen [delete as appropriate] ...

A bit narrow minded aren't you?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: rogerzilla on February 01, 2020, 04:39:39 pm
Win10 is touchscreen-friendly until you turn off all that stuff.  Touchscreens are the same as light pens in the 1980s - they seem like a great idea until you actually use one for more than 2 minutes and realise how tired your hands get, just hanging in the air.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: neilrj on February 01, 2020, 06:22:01 pm
Win10 is touchscreen-friendly until you turn off all that stuff.  Touchscreens are the same as light pens in the 1980s - they seem like a great idea until you actually use one for more than 2 minutes and realise how tired your hands get, just hanging in the air.

And the damned fingerprints, who thought of using a high resolution screen as a sweat/grease repository was a good idea anyway?
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Kim on February 01, 2020, 11:21:05 pm
Touchscreens have their uses, but I wouldn't want to operate a desktop OS with one.  I suppose it's useful on Surface type devices.  (I also note that my Android tablet lives in a bag with a bluetooth keyboard, capacitive stylus and a microfibre cloth...)

The best thing I ever did with a light pen was combine it with a genlock to allow live video to be scribbled on, back in the days of the Amiga when that was impressive.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Mr Larrington on February 02, 2020, 12:11:49 pm
I was idly golfing laptops on ebuyer the other day and noted that touchscreens seem to have fallen out of favour since I bought my current clockwork one in 2014.  The screen of which has a gert big crack in it from a failed attempt at cleaning it.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: ian on February 02, 2020, 05:08:40 pm
Touchscreen computers is one of those cases of solving a problem that doesn't exist. Existing mice, trackpads etc. are both more practical and ergonomic. Touchscreen works were those aren't feasible, i.e. for tablets and phones.
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: rafletcher on February 02, 2020, 05:35:31 pm
I have a habit of pointing at things on-screen. Not great with touch-screen laptops!
Title: Re: Windows 10
Post by: Jurek on February 02, 2020, 05:51:37 pm
My grate frend Jane has a Dell touch screen desktop PC.
No matter how sexy the designers have made it look ( a privilege for which Jane, doubtless, has paid) it looks skanky when covered in her greasy dab prints.