Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 24, 2020, 11:03:52 pm

Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 24, 2020, 11:03:52 pm
I see that a long thread has been deleted today. The questions raised by various AUKs still remain. Is the AUK Board going to give any information regarding how AUK might run brevets, given potentially progressive lockdown relaxations over an extended period and likely regional variations in relaxations?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on May 24, 2020, 11:24:05 pm
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 24, 2020, 11:29:47 pm
Better to have it in both places, to get contributions from more folk. I’ll put it over there tomorrow.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on May 25, 2020, 08:34:31 am
I think a post i did was in the deleted thread. It's theme was

1. I am sure the board is doing a lot of work behind the scenes.
2. If the guidance does not change then what is the point of doing updates, when there is nothing to say?
3. Giving updates risks discussions on pointless things or issues with interpretation.
4. No one knows how this is going to end so putting a plan in place may keep a lot of people busy and require writing, re-drafing, updating wording and having meeting to finalise, not to mention keeping the forums busy with discussions on things like handling cake in a Corvid-19 safe manner, but will be essentially pointless.

Audax UK must limit the amount of pointless information it gives out, otherwise they risk looking like one of the politicians in the current daily updates. Sounding earnest, dividing people into two groups, one who congratulate them on a good working and other that smiles and wonders if any of this will ever happen.

I think the current level of information has been just about right. There is no point in saying anything and getting involved in fringe discussions on the limits of interpreting the rules. Look at the mess around Dominic Cummings.

BB

 

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on May 25, 2020, 08:36:44 am
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on May 25, 2020, 09:09:27 am
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.
That could be because there is little point in having many discussions at the moment.. ???

Just saying....

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on May 25, 2020, 09:29:06 am
I am with you on this BB boy, the future is very unknown and i am sure the board are on the case.
But do we really need a plan in writing etc, everything changes daily so a statement from the board today could be worthless tomorrow.

We should all remember audax uk is run by volunteers and as such people have other things in life to worry about.
To all i would say, relax audaxing will return in time and for now the sun is out go and enjoy your bike , explore and enjoy.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on May 25, 2020, 09:54:19 am
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.

To be fair, that's because no-one has asked them about it specifically. There's only really been your question about what was said to the insurers. I don't see how AUK are supposed to guess from that that people want an update on plans for any kind of validation and whether AUK are even considering that.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on May 25, 2020, 10:15:39 am
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.

To be fair, that's because no-one has asked them about it specifically. There's only really been your question about what was said to the insurers. I don't see how AUK are supposed to guess from that that people want an update on plans for any kind of validation and whether AUK are even considering that.
Audax UK don't need to guess "that that people want an update on plans". It's called leadership and specifically sharing its vision with its membership. The board are all volunteers and of course they have other things to do. But suggesting that they will only consider action and let people know what the cunning plan is if people ask them to is to demean their intellect.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 25, 2020, 10:24:13 am
The deleted thread seems to have been partially reinstated, up to early May only. An interesting approach that wipes out most of what has been posted this month regarding AUK’s intentions for audax in a COVID19 world.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on May 25, 2020, 10:29:47 am
It's a completely different thread @LWaB. At least we can be confident you will not arbitrarily delete this one :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: C-3PO on May 25, 2020, 10:34:44 am
The deleted thread lies still, secure in our storage facility. We allow Masters to delete their threads, as we allow editing and deletion of posts. For this is a forum where we expect members to behave appropriately.

I shall ask the Moderation Masters if this thread should be merged with this one, (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=115080.0) it does appear to be a duplication.

Your shiny servant.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on May 25, 2020, 10:35:56 am
There's really only a very limited number of options for them to consider:
1. No return (for the forseeable)
2. Staged return
3. Full return (from a date to be determined)

and in the case of 2 or 3:
a. With or without modifications to the rules (see golf and tennis)
b. With or without championships (for any affected season(s)
c. With or without a dispensation for RRTY.

(2) is obviously the most attractive, but also the most complicated for volunteers to deliver.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 25, 2020, 10:38:02 am
And
d. With regional variations or uniform across the UK regions

The AUK Board indicating which of those choices was their preferred/ likely option would be sufficient, given the lack of detail provided by the UK/ England government regarding their plans for the un-lockdown process.

Thanks for the correction Ajax Bay. It just confirms my memory limitations.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on May 25, 2020, 10:46:06 am
We should all remember audax uk is run by volunteers and as such people have other things in life to worry about.

I suspect they have rediscovered the delights of leisure time, after many years yoked to the plough.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on May 25, 2020, 10:46:58 am
And
d. with regional variations or uniform across the regions

The AUK Board indicating which of those choices was their preferred/ likely option would be sufficient, given the lack of detail provided by the UK/ England government regarding their plans for the un-lockdown process.
This is the type of thing we want to avoid. What happens if Scotland and Wales have slightly different rules? Are you allowed to use motorway services that are open, but buy food and drink that is only supplied for key workers? If calender events open who monitors the number of people in controls?

It quickly gets very complex and people will have many and varied questions and opinions, and all when the rules are not clear. FFS what would be the point.

BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on May 25, 2020, 11:07:03 am
Everyone is expected to comply with whatever rules are in force per government, country, region, shop etc.  AUK doesn't need to pronounce on any of that.  If the rules are not clear, all the more reason for AUK to not get involved.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on May 25, 2020, 11:10:55 am
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 25, 2020, 11:14:37 am
It affects Options 2 & 3. If AUK says no regional variations for running brevets, the rate of restarting AUK is set by the most restrictive region. Any of England (not likely), Northern Ireland (no AUK calendar brevets, only Audax Ireland brevets), Scotland or Wales could have tighter restrictions than the other regions.

The only preference (in this regard) published by the AUK Secretary was to avoid regional variations.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Danu on May 25, 2020, 11:20:46 am
On this subject I will follow the advice of my club captain,  if  a hard riding audaxer is prepared to wait before riding events, that is good enough for me
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on May 25, 2020, 11:25:57 am
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

In another thread on yacf there was mention of a tennis club applying to the council for permission to restart - the coucil agreed, with some provisos - no ball-handling, oo-er - and no over-70s.  An iniquitous restriction, but it's nothing to do with the club, the rule comes from a (slightly) higher authority.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 25, 2020, 11:29:22 am
On the deleted thread, a poster opined that an asymptomatic solo DIY by GPSer would be a high transmission risk by spreading the virus far and wide by purchases at each refreshment stop. The concept of mitigation measures didn’t seem to be considered.

If AUK takes the same approach, AUK will remain shut down until (if) an effective vaccine is widely distributed (perhaps never). I’d appreciate any such indication as to the medium/longterm future of AUK.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on May 25, 2020, 11:32:11 am
On the deleted thread, a poster opined that an asymptomatic solo DIY by GPSer would be a high transmission risk by spreading the virus far and wide by purchases at each refreshment stop. The concept of mitigation measures didn’t seem to be considered.


Yep, that was me... it's a scenario
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on May 25, 2020, 11:57:06 am
I assume you meant infected and asymptomatic.  Comes to that, you don't even need to be infected - anyone can be a transmitter if they're a bit careless.  We are, in case you've forgotten, exhorted to 'stay alert'.  That is not an AUK thing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on May 25, 2020, 12:15:27 pm
I assume you meant infected and asymptomatic.  Comes to that, you don't even need to be infected - anyone can be a transmitter if they're a bit careless.  We are, in case you've forgotten, exhorted to 'stay alert'.  That is not an AUK thing.

The context was that there is a perception that calendar events are more risky than solo DIY, to which I said "we can't even be sure about that". To some extent, in a calendar event the organiser has scope to make an event "safe"... in a solo DIY it's down to the individual and to the circumstances, which might be beyond control.

Anyway, it's all academic
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on May 25, 2020, 12:23:39 pm
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on May 25, 2020, 12:38:41 pm
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.

To be fair, that's because no-one has asked them about it specifically. There's only really been your question about what was said to the insurers. I don't see how AUK are supposed to guess from that that people want an update on plans for any kind of validation and whether AUK are even considering that.
Audax UK don't need to guess "that that people want an update on plans". It's called leadership and specifically sharing its vision with its membership. The board are all volunteers and of course they have other things to do. But suggesting that they will only consider action and let people know what the cunning plan is if people ask them to is to demean their intellect.

I wasn't suggesting that they will only consider action if people ask them, you misunderstand my point.

My previous points stand:-

1) They've already given an update on the AUK website and in that thread on the AUK forum.
2) They're working on a plan.
3) Some members want more detail (and sooner than AUK are looking to publish it) as they somehow think that a lack of detail = no plan whatsoever
4) The AUK board can't guess this, so either the members who want more detail need to let the board know that, or they can hope that the board guesses it
5) If you want to ask for (3) then the most obvious place to do so is the official AUK forum
6) It's up to the board what they do, they may just say "Yes, we're working on it". That may satisfy quite a few people from (3), but probably not all.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on May 25, 2020, 12:57:47 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on May 25, 2020, 01:11:59 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on May 25, 2020, 02:13:19 pm
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.

That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.

Anyway, again, all academic as I don;t think there will be Audax events until it is safe to operate as per normal
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 25, 2020, 02:34:41 pm
Thread now started on the AUK forum
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1870
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on May 25, 2020, 02:57:40 pm
Audax UK - Update 16 May 2020

"COVID-19 - Suspension of AUK rides: Update

"In the Chair's message to members last month, he said that the current suspension of recognition of AUK events would be reviewed if there were to be any meaningful and relevant change to the current guidance on social distancing and group activities from the government.

"Accordingly, we have studied the Prime Minister's statement of May 10th and the subsequent guidance issued, and have also considered the views and intentions of the devolved nations and the implications of those. We have also taken note of advice issued by other relevant bodies, such as Sport England, British Cycling, and Cycling UK, and consulted with our insurers.

"Our judgement is that it would be premature to make any changes to the suspension at the moment, particularly given that the amended guidance applies only to England, and that different conditions apply in the devolved nations. However, we are working on identifying and working through ways in which we might return to validating AUK events as soon as we conclude that it is both safe and responsible to do so."

AUK Board
May 16th 2020

So a particular (primary?) factor delaying the reintroduction of anything at all (eg DIYs and Pemanents as Phase 1) is that different conditions apply to the various home nations (Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not "devolved nations" btw; some powers have been).
To allow people to look forward and plan, how about hearing what options have been identified and are being worked on so far, with  firm dates neither needed nor necessary.
PS Had a great ride yesterday.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on May 25, 2020, 03:07:03 pm
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.

That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.

Anyway, again, all academic as I don;t think there will be Audax events until it is safe to operate as per normal
Or go digital. Spend some of the quazillions of IT budget (or get some sucker to do it for free) and build an eBrevetCard app. When you reach a control point, you rev up the app and click the stamp button. After collecting all the stamps and when you have internet, press submit button.


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Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on May 25, 2020, 03:37:17 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported, non group, cycle rides entirely outdoors ?

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on May 25, 2020, 03:56:09 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported cycle rides entirely outdoors ?

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.

Audaxing is an outlier. A third of the population putting on half a stone is nothing to do with AUK stopping validating rides. Fewer than 10,000 individuals do a 200km+ ride in a normal year and the vast majority of those will be regular cyclists that will still be doing lots of cycling (which no-one is preventing them from doing).

I gave my opinion in the old thread as to why I think, right now, given the current guidelines/restrictions, Audaxing would not be a socially responsible thing to encourage. But that's just my personal opinion, however it seems to be similar to the view held by the AUK board hence their view that it they should withdraw validation.

You can make it about my personal opinion but I'm not the one setting AUK policy on this. Your beef seems to be with AUK not me. I accept that your opinion differs and I'm not making any attempt to change your mind as it doesn't really matter to me.

As a rough precis of my thoughts in the original thread:-
* Exercise is good and there are no limits on exercise[1]
* Audax is more than just exercise
* One of the primary items in the current guidance is "Stay at home as much as possible" and unnecessary things like Audax would fall under this (in my opinion)
* No-one could guarantee that all riders would be able to stick to social distancing and hygiene standards even if rides were limited to solo DIYs or Perms (every individual will think they can individually but AUK has to think of the average and worst cases)
* Given all of this (and probably some other stuff) AUK has decided that it should not be encouraging people to do unnecessary activities

1. Although I would guess that the "unlimited" part was to stop people getting all judgemental about others if there were limits (e.g. the fact that people believe that there was a "1 hour of exercise per day" limit with the original restrictions).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on May 25, 2020, 04:11:41 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported cycle rides entirely outdoors ?

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.

Audaxing is an outlier. A third of the population putting on half a stone is nothing to do with AUK stopping validating rides. Fewer than 10,000 individuals do a 200km+ ride in a normal year and the vast majority of those will be regular cyclists that will still be doing lots of cycling (which no-one is preventing them from doing).

I gave my opinion in the old thread as to why I think, right now, given the current guidelines/restrictions, Audaxing would not be a socially responsible thing to encourage. But that's just my personal opinion, however it seems to be similar to the view held by the AUK board hence their view that it they should withdraw validation.

You can make it about my personal opinion but I'm not the one setting AUK policy on this. Your beef seems to be with AUK not me. I accept that your opinion differs and I'm not making any attempt to change your mind as it doesn't really matter to me.

As a rough precis of my thoughts in the original thread:-
* Exercise is good and there are no limits on exercise[1]
* Audax is more than just exercise
* One of the primary items in the current guidance is "Stay at home as much as possible" and unnecessary things like Audax would fall under this (in my opinion)
* No-one could guarantee that all riders would be able to stick to social distancing and hygiene standards even if rides were limited to solo DIYs or Perms (every individual will think they can individually but AUK has to think of the average and worst cases)
* Given all of this (and probably some other stuff) AUK has decided that it should not be encouraging people to do unnecessary activities

1. Although I would guess that the "unlimited" part was to stop people getting all judgemental about others if there were limits (e.g. the fact that people believe that there was a "1 hour of exercise per day" limit with the original restrictions).
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on May 25, 2020, 04:50:18 pm
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.

Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)

If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.

If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on May 25, 2020, 05:07:55 pm
I am stopping reading this thread. Having spent too much time with Lawers and Compliance officers I know enough to know this could be argued about for years with no firm conclusions.
Discussions will go along the following lines. Someone sets up a scinareo, it pushes against one of the rules, some people think this is reasonable and others do not. Repeat many times.
There will be no conclusion.
AUK should not get involved and wait for clarity in the rules from the goverment.
Trust the Committee.
BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on May 25, 2020, 05:37:50 pm
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.

Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)

If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.

If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
I think it is very possible that it woukd, currently rrty is suspended with existing part complete efforts able to resume when validation is available.

Wete valudation to be available some members 10 or 11 months into a rrty effort in March will feel pressure to resume,  affirmative members in Scotland and Wales would not be able to,  this is less than ideal.

Additionally riders who normally only ride perms may increase the demands on diy organisers, who were already reporting significant increase in workload over previous years.

I would be interested to know,
1) is the board working on the assumption of a one nation approach,  where audax only resumes when it is possible in each of the 4 nations
2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events
3) is the a thought at what stage of the lockdown process audax might resume.  Obviously we cannot commit to dates as everything is moving,  but the government's have set out what the gradual steps will be described in various stages.
4) the original announcement gave a clear no rides until date x and we will review later, i think a statement after each review that all events up to date x are cancelled and this will be reviewed on date y would be helpful  not least because many people have entered events which are not yet officially cancelled,  but which look unlikely to go ahead,  but entrants essentially need to consider the event still live until told otherwise,  which then leads to training requirements
5) does the board have a view on compatability of single day rides (100/200/300) returning before multi days events (400+)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on May 25, 2020, 05:50:02 pm
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.

That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.


Yup, sounds good.
And of course coming up with ideas like this demonstrates why the board should be discussing this WITH MEMBERS!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on May 25, 2020, 06:24:26 pm
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.

Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)

If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.

If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
I see audax as a way of encouraging exercise just like strava, park run, runbritainrankings or veloviewer. The fact you can persuade grown adults to cycle 100km, 200km or more for a rubber stamp is bizarre but true. I don’t see why getting a rubber stamp changes it from being allowed exercise to being an unnecessary irresponsible undertaking. I must admit I am new to this whole business, last year was my first full season - I did some SRs and am now hooked. I view it as a complex and bizarre version of strava.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on May 25, 2020, 06:44:35 pm
Why is there all this talk of the 4 nations aligning,  the only events i have ever heard off/.

 read about in northern Ireland are under audax Ireland ( i could be wrong).

Secondly there are many members abroad. Who ride Auk perms regular in there own country!

All i can say is WHAT FUN :demon:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on May 25, 2020, 07:05:08 pm
Why is there all this talk of the 4 nations aligning,  the only events i have ever heard off/.

 read about in northern Ireland are under audax Ireland ( i could be wrong).

Secondly there are many members abroad. Who ride Auk perms regular in there own country!

Yes - can anyone confirm that the Risk Assessments of these rides are checked against all local regulations?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Zed43 on May 25, 2020, 07:20:29 pm
Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms?
I feel a bit silly and childish about this but yes, DIY validation and SR award would nudge me on riding more than 200km. In the past month I did a few rides around 200km but can't bring myself to go further at the moment.

I'm fairly confident I could do a 400km relying on just the food and drink I bring. Besides, I'm in the Netherlands, and restrictions are a little relaxing here anyway.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on May 25, 2020, 07:22:50 pm
I am stopping reading this thread. Having spent too much time with Lawers and Compliance officers I know enough to know this could be argued about for years with no firm conclusions.
Discussions will go along the following lines. Someone sets up a scinareo, it pushes against one of the rules, some people think this is reasonable and others do not. Repeat many times.
There will be no conclusion.
AUK should not get involved and wait for clarity in the rules from the goverment.
Trust the Committee.
BB

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Me too. 

The zombie thead was mercifully deleted. 

Now we have this one

Its "the jobby that wouldnt flush away". 

 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: hellymedic on May 25, 2020, 07:37:15 pm
I know I'm a girl but I don't see how anyone can ride a 4001 without needing a toilet stop.

Toilet stops mean touching surfaces and possibly disseminating the virus. Hand-washing facilities are often poor, whatever your intentions.

1) Even 100 km without a loo is a challenge to many.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 25, 2020, 08:22:27 pm
A cloverleaf route DIY returning to home addresses a lot of people’s concerns regarding transmission.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on May 25, 2020, 08:36:11 pm
A cloverleaf route DIY returning to home addresses a lot of people’s concerns regarding transmission.

Sounds great. Not everyone lives in the same place as you. How many leaves has your clover?

Unfortunately what seems to be happening here (again) is that a few are trying to skew for the many. The many are accepting the situation, accepting what the board has said.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on May 25, 2020, 09:00:55 pm
Well said jaded!  Just a case of waiting cycling is still allowed so as i see it no problem.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 25, 2020, 09:12:09 pm
And how do you address the possibility that this virus may remain an issue for months or years? I see that some relaxation of restrictions is progressively occurring, allowing other activities to be reintroduced. Is audax likely to be progressively restarted or ‘all or nothing’?

All I’m asking for is an indication of AUK’s likely future direction. Even Randonneurs USA has managed that much.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on May 25, 2020, 09:21:11 pm
I know I'm a girl but I don't see how anyone can ride a 4001 without needing a toilet stop.

Toilet stops mean touching surfaces and possibly disseminating the virus. Hand-washing facilities are often poor, whatever your intentions.

1) Even 100 km without a loo is a challenge to many.

I've ridden a 700 with no toilet stop, you just have to ride hard enough to dehydrate yourself so you don't want to go, and rely on low fibre food like gels. 

Unfortunately the MR24 isn't running this year 😥
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on May 25, 2020, 09:36:30 pm

I don't understand how it can be the socially responsible thing to open up events, even if DIY's unless it's for everyone across the country. So no regionalisation.

My hope is that AUK do not resume stuff until at least September, assuming we don't have a second peak in the mean time. I would not be upset if they didn't do any events, including DIY/Perm, until 2021.

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on May 25, 2020, 09:45:46 pm
Is audax likely to be progressively restarted or ‘all or nothing’?

Yes.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 25, 2020, 09:51:13 pm
Good. Again, which FF option is the Board aiming for?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on May 25, 2020, 10:22:48 pm
The first one.

Or the second one.

It depends.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 25, 2020, 10:28:12 pm
You are not in a position to answer that question, but the Board is.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on May 25, 2020, 10:35:57 pm

I don't understand how it can be the socially responsible thing to open up events, even if DIY's unless it's for everyone across the country.

Why not?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on May 25, 2020, 11:08:49 pm

2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events


When anybody knows
Or policy grows
To burn off the lard
With a brevet card
It is certain to be expressed in prose.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: pangolin on May 26, 2020, 06:58:42 am
You are not in a position to answer that question, but the Board is.

Which begs the question again why do you keep asking on here?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on May 26, 2020, 07:06:43 am

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.

Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on May 26, 2020, 07:27:10 am

2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events


When anybody knows
Or policy grows
To burn off the lard
With a brevet card
It is certain to be expressed in prose.
7/10
Shows definite promise!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on May 26, 2020, 07:33:32 am

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.

Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!

The other 2/3rds have lost it...  ;D

Seriously... there was nothing in the regulations that prevented from doing weight loss activities, but a lot that prevented weight gain activities, with bars, pubs, cafes and restaurants closed...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: marcusjb on May 26, 2020, 07:57:06 am

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.

Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!

The other 2/3rds have lost it...  ;D

Seriously... there was nothing in the regulations that prevented from doing weight loss activities, but a lot that prevented weight gain activities, with bars, pubs, cafes and restaurants closed...

Yep, the whole not living out of hotels and restaurants thing, plus being able to ride my bike more has given me a 5% weight drop since March.

The board is right to take a cautious approach to defining the future direction of AUK. This will be a time of massive change, events will be fundamentally different for the foreseeable future if, indeed, they are viable.

DIY and perms may well be possible sooner of course, but AUK needs to be ready for, potentially, 2 seasons with no significant events and having the capacity (sorry to sound like Hancock) for a potentially large increase in DIY submissions.

My suspicion is that any event with sleeping accommodation will have to be fundamentally changed, and may well be unviable or the preserve of the wealthiest riders (if the BCM (for example) could only accommodate say 50 riders at Kings, entry costs may have to go up considerably)(either because of the limited capacity or the requirement to have two sleep facilities hired).

It will be a challenging time for us all.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on May 26, 2020, 09:11:34 am
Good post.

Yes in practical terms a complete resumptioin of Calendar events just isn't going to happen.  For a start, if and when the current lock on event entries is lifted, I can well imagine half the organisers turning round and saying "oh no, I thought my event was cancelled, I don't want to run it any more".  For the rest, well the whole process of gathering entries has to be gone through before anything can be ridden, and I would guess that entry levels will be well down on what was expected/budgeted for.  By July few people will have the fitness to contemplate anything longer than a 200.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on May 26, 2020, 09:17:21 am


My suspicion is that any event with sleeping accommodation will have to be fundamentally changed, and may well be unviable or the preserve of the wealthiest riders (if the BCM (for example) could only accommodate say 50 riders at Kings, entry costs may have to go up considerably)(either because of the limited capacity or the requirement to have two sleep facilities hired).

It will be a challenging time for us all.

50? They don't even have 50 beds... 20 at a push, one per bunk bed (as opposed to two)... and even then...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on May 26, 2020, 09:18:08 am

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.

Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!

The other 2/3rds have lost it...  ;D

Seriously... there was nothing in the regulations that prevented from doing weight loss activities, but a lot that prevented weight gain activities, with bars, pubs, cafes and restaurants closed...

Yep, the whole not living out of hotels and restaurants thing, plus being able to ride my bike more has given me a 5% weight drop since March.

7.5% down for me, lack of access to food (empty supermarkets early days, no fast food, no popping in to shop for chocolate or fizzy drinks) has me at my lowest weight for many years. Stepped on the scales this morning to find my BMI is now down to 25

Overnight events will be very tricky, I wonder what the restrictions on hotels will be, deep cleaning between guests,? rooms empty for a period between guests? All likely to significantly increase the cost of a single night in a travelodge, making even diy 600s expensive unless run as two loops from home.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on May 26, 2020, 09:33:25 am


Overnight events will be very tricky, I wonder what the restrictions on hotels will be, deep cleaning between guests,? rooms empty for a period between guests? All likely to significantly increase the cost of a single night in a travelodge, making even diy 600s expensive unless run as two loops from home.

Travel in general will become more expensive for quite some time. A combination of fewer customers and increased running costs means budget hotels will struggle.

I'm down to 67.5 kg, from 73 pre-lockdown... BMI now is 22, it's almost a stone and it means trousers don't fit anymore... feels great on the bike though
 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on May 26, 2020, 09:34:09 am
All this hand wringing about social responsibility is a little off key.

I did quite a long ride yesterday (2 shops and hedges for toilets) which went through a few seaside resorts.   Let me tell you the general public does not GAF about social responsibility.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 26, 2020, 09:43:09 am
You are not in a position to answer that question, but the Board is.

Which begs the question again why do you keep asking on here?

Because a larger group of experienced and intelligent folk thinking about the problem are more likely to identify all of the issues and to find better mitigation measures than a small group is.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on May 26, 2020, 09:52:32 am
Because a larger group of experienced and intelligent folk thinking about the problem are more likely to identify all of the issues and to find better mitigation measures than a small group is.

But if none of us are the board, what's the point? Are we asking us to write audax regulation fanfic?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 26, 2020, 09:58:46 am
You are welcome to do so. I’ve played that game before.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on May 26, 2020, 10:06:34 am


Overnight events will be very tricky, I wonder what the restrictions on hotels will be, deep cleaning between guests,? rooms empty for a period between guests? All likely to significantly increase the cost of a single night in a travelodge, making even diy 600s expensive unless run as two loops from home.

Travel in general will become more expensive for quite some time. A combination of fewer customers and increased running costs means budget hotels will struggle.

I'm down to 67.5 kg, from 73 pre-lockdown... BMI now is 22, it's almost a stone and it means trousers don't fit anymore... feels great on the bike though
I am not sure if that will be the case. Many of the budget chains are pestering me with cheap offers of flexible bookings. Even if it does turn out that hotels costs become a barrier to entry, perhaps audax should move towards a more self sufficient model.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: marcusjb on May 26, 2020, 10:21:24 am
Big chains like Travelodge, premier inn etc. Are opening bookings from 4th July currently - with lots of guarantees on flexibility etc. Obviously, they are in the hands of the government being guided by the science.....and July is purely aspirational currently.

Pain in the arse for those of us that do live out of hotels for work (and making billionaire’s lives easier is not viewed as key work surprisingly) as I currently cannot easily travel away this next month or so; so plenty of day dashes to London, Cotswolds etc. this next few weeks.

Anyway, again, that all pushes the pastime into one for the wealthier and I would not really be comfortable with longer events becoming vastly more expensive and out of the reach for many (and increasingly so as the knock on effects of Covid-19, European trade negotiations and climate change slam into each other over the next few years).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Whitedown Man on May 26, 2020, 10:24:29 am
Not because of logic but out of fear or prejudice I suspect some hotels and hotel chains might become more reluctant to allow riders to take bikes into their rooms. Carrying locks of sufficient strength to give me confidence to leave my bike on the street overnight is going to be a real game-changer for me.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on May 26, 2020, 10:32:00 am
All this hand wringing about social responsibility is a little off key.

I did quite a long ride yesterday (2 shops and hedges for toilets) which went through a few seaside resorts.   Let me tell you the general public does not GAF about social responsibility.

The disconnect is really quite stark.  You look online and a bunch of people are all posting from their bedrooms, wondering whether everyone on the planet should stay in their bedrooms for the next ten years to avoid one single person dying of c*****9.  Then you go outside and find that everyone else is living their life as normal.

You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on May 26, 2020, 10:55:17 am

You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

You won't. But while the social distancing and other requirements remain in force - even if they are being flouted by some - it would be grossly irresponsible for AUK to decide to ignore them.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on May 26, 2020, 11:29:51 am


You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

I think you will find it is a matter of insurance and public perception more than anything else
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on May 26, 2020, 11:52:10 am
All this hand wringing about social responsibility is a little off key.

I did quite a long ride yesterday (2 shops and hedges for toilets) which went through a few seaside resorts.   Let me tell you the general public does not GAF about social responsibility.

The disconnect is really quite stark.  You look online and a bunch of people are all posting from their bedrooms, wondering whether everyone on the planet should stay in their bedrooms for the next ten years to avoid one single person dying of c*****9.  Then you go outside and find that everyone else is living their life as normal.

You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

Fallacy by Lemming argument.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on May 26, 2020, 01:31:55 pm

You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

You won't. But while the social distancing and other requirements remain in force - even if they are being flouted by some - it would be grossly irresponsible for AUK to decide to ignore them.

This isn't about flouting anything though.  This is about overcautious private citizens who get a kick out of complying far beyond the required level, and holding everyone else hostage to their evidence-free standards.  They're a destructive influence on society, and the socially responsible course of action is to get them used to having their silly opinions ignored.




You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

I think you will find it is a matter of insurance and public perception more than anything else

ITYF you pulled both of those arguments out of your chamois.  Spuriously blaming lack of insurance is the last recourse of someone with no arguments left.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on May 26, 2020, 01:44:22 pm
Your argument is that we should flout the ban on group sporting events because you have seen people breaking lockdown regulations.

Circular argument. Well done.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on May 26, 2020, 01:50:47 pm
Your argument is that we should flout the ban on group sporting events because you have seen people breaking lockdown regulations.

Circular argument. Well done.
Perhaps Audax U.K. should change its tag line to the “long distance group cyclists association”


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on May 26, 2020, 02:50:50 pm
In Ireland, Cycling Ireland have shared their approach, which they call rather neatly a 'road map'
"Cycling Ireland road map for road cycling: From May 18th to Autumn"
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/when-will-group-rides-races-sportives-return-we-have-the-likely-dates/?fbclid=IwAR0qrQIeRDfB5I4ffJXRrEsUNTzuF36YtC9zwxrxy3jRiChQMKP1E-D4WQA
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on May 26, 2020, 04:41:01 pm
Worth noting the county level restriction at "Phase 5".

That would totally suck if it applied here and you lived in Clackmannanshire or Rutland
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on May 26, 2020, 06:46:13 pm
In Ireland, Cycling Ireland have shared their approach, which they call rather neatly a 'road map'
"Cycling Ireland road map for road cycling: From May 18th to Autumn"
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/when-will-group-rides-races-sportives-return-we-have-the-likely-dates/?fbclid=IwAR0qrQIeRDfB5I4ffJXRrEsUNTzuF36YtC9zwxrxy3jRiChQMKP1E-D4WQA

That's interesting. The big difference between here and there is that the national cycling body appears to be getting specific advice from government. I imagine that's unlikely to happen here but is one reason why the AUK board is monitoring the pronouncements from British Cycling, as that's the body most likely to be viewed as authoritative.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on May 26, 2020, 07:23:01 pm
Worth noting the county level restriction at "Phase 5".

That would totally suck if it applied here and you lived in Clackmannanshire or Rutland

Not sure about Clackmannanshire but Rutland is fine  ;) (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=108934)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on May 26, 2020, 07:39:24 pm
That's interesting. The big difference between here and there is that the national cycling body appears to be getting specific advice from government.

Not quite. The Irish government  have published a detailed five stage roadmap (https://www.gov.ie/en/news/58bc8b-taoiseach-announces-roadmap-for-reopening-society-and-business-and-u/?referrer=http://www.gov.ie/roadmap/) and the national cycling body are working from that.

The British government have only published an MS Paint scribble (https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1262425696275705857) and are making up re-openings as they go along. I don't see how anyone can expect AUK to do anything but shrug.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on May 26, 2020, 11:18:36 pm
Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on May 27, 2020, 06:17:01 am
I notice that despite the 5km from home rule that applies in Ireland they are still organising outdoor, credited solo rides to get points to encourage beginning cyclists. This temporarily replaces their beginners group ride scheme.

https://www.axacommunitybikerides.com/search/rides/eyJyZXN1bHRfcGFnZSI6InNlYXJjaFwvcmlkZXMiLCJzZWFyY2g6Y291bnR5IjoidmlydHVhbCByaWRlcyJ9

I do realise Bike Ireland is the equivalent of British cycling and not audax.

Edit: I notice they are sponsored by AXA insurance. If it is the case that auks insurance is the stumbling block perhaps it is worth talking to AXA.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on May 27, 2020, 07:01:58 am
Point of order:
BC's history/expertise is in racing. They have nothing to do with Audax. Even their GoRide schemes for kids are race-focused.(I've been to a session).

Which national cycling body last ran the National 400?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Giropaul on May 27, 2020, 08:48:30 am
Point of order:
BC's history/expertise is in racing. They have nothing to do with Audax. Even their GoRide schemes for kids are race-focused.(I've been to a session).

Which national cycling body last ran the National 400?

Some of the racing fraternity might contend that BC is Sportive focussed ( alongside elite racing). Funding depends on numbers, and sportives yield numbers.
Grass roots racing is struggling in this funding- driven environment.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on May 27, 2020, 09:16:51 am
Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.

The normal in the two countries is completely different due to the amount of detail their respective governments have set out.

Audax Ireland can look directly towards detailed government papers that explain exactly what will be allowed in future and when. Audax UK is stuck following British Cycling's lead because the UK government hasn't published anything useful to go on.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on May 27, 2020, 11:07:11 am
Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.

The normal in the two countries is completely different due to the amount of detail their respective governments have set out.

Audax Ireland can look directly towards detailed government papers that explain exactly what will be allowed in future and when. Audax UK is stuck following British Cycling's lead because the UK government hasn't published anything useful to go on.
The Irish and Scottish governments have produced documents with no basis. If the virus behaviour is as predicted and the rates of infection as as predicted then it may be reasonable to allow social contact in the following manner.
There are so many variables they are effectively meaningless.

BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on May 27, 2020, 11:51:01 am
Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.

The normal in the two countries is completely different due to the amount of detail their respective governments have set out.

Audax Ireland can look directly towards detailed government papers that explain exactly what will be allowed in future and when. Audax UK is stuck following British Cycling's lead because the UK government hasn't published anything useful to go on.
The Irish and Scottish governments have produced documents with no basis. If the virus behaviour is as predicted and the rates of infection as as predicted then it may be reasonable to allow social contact in the following manner.
There are so many variables they are effectively meaningless.

The Irish one has aspirational dates.
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"
England has a powerpoint slide...

It's really an exercise in trying to provide a clear enough guide, people are taking them as out and out time tables though hence the Yoons scream "WHYS THERE NO DATES?".

I'd suggest the devolved administrations have been overly specific in reaction to Westminsters shambolic rambling.
When I saw the RoI timetable the first thing I thought was "how the feck can you put dates on these?"
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on May 27, 2020, 12:55:34 pm
The Irish one has aspirational dates.
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"
England has a powerpoint slide...

It's really an exercise in trying to provide a clear enough guide, people are taking them as out and out time tables though hence the Yoons scream "WHYS THERE NO DATES?".

I'd suggest the devolved administrations have been overly specific in reaction to Westminsters shambolic rambling.
When I saw the RoI timetable the first thing I thought was "how the feck can you put dates on these?"
When I saw the Cycling Ireland (RoI) timetable the first thing I thought was "well done for having a plan" and noted that the dates were tentative and carefully/sensibly caveated. I also noted the longing envy of the fact that riding in 'the North' was unhindered by irrational (from a risk mitigation PoV) 'no more than 5km/20km from home' limitations.
A plan, any plan, is much better for all parties:
1) those formulating a 'road map' to resumption (the Audax UK Board);
2) the organisers of events (DIY Regional organisers, Permanent organisers and calendar event organisers); and
3) riders looking forward and aspiring to ride in an 'audax' construct.
Reasons (some with more merit than others) like:
  'we don't know enough',
  'lots of things are unclear and may change',
  'we need to see what other bodies decide' (whose activities involve two (mainly) human-powered wheels but have no interest in niche non-competitive, non-money making activities)

are why consideration needs to be analytic, yet nevertheless come to a resolved way ahead, with dates dependent on national progress (eg shops opening), shared with members.
A list of the additional COVID-19 related hazards to organisers, to riders, and/or to Audax UK's reputation would be a useful part of the decision framework. Perhaps we could crowd-generate a list, to allow the Board to feel comfort that their list already contains all the rational items.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 27, 2020, 05:09:20 pm

2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events


When anybody knows
Or policy grows
To burn off the lard
With a brevet card
It is certain to be expressed in prose.
Poetry worthy of Dan Brown!  ;D
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: zigzag on May 27, 2020, 05:10:49 pm
meanwhile some of my friends over in lithuania rode a 300 audax last saturday, i wish i could have been there. good times were had - no hint  of fear, stress or anxiety. terrain is quite flat, so the keen ones in the front group finished with 36kph(!) avg.

https://www.facebook.com/rndnlt/videos/269015547841979/?t=0 (https://www.facebook.com/rndnlt/videos/269015547841979/?t=0)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on May 27, 2020, 06:13:37 pm
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"

All well and good, but from an Audax UK point of view, an approach like that is hugely problematic.  Events have to be entered/paid in advance, then ridden.  Stepping backwards gets people involved in a whole lot of refund pain.  Fiddling round the edges ofa plan involves volunteer effort that simply may not be forthcoming.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on May 27, 2020, 06:56:01 pm
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"

All well and good, but from an Audax UK point of view, an approach like that is hugely problematic.  Events have to be entered/paid in advance, then ridden.  Stepping backwards gets people involved in a whole lot of refund pain.  Fiddling round the edges ofa plan involves volunteer effort that simply may not be forthcoming.
True. It may be something that organisers can assess* for themselves - we did survive cancelling everything once (and I have every sympathy for those lumbered with the extra work).

But that's the 2nd phase - I don't think it affects restarting perms?


*What countries have stepped backwards in the process to date? I'd say it's a large hazard, but with low probability, and would be mitigated by scheduling further out, for example. Actually, events may become cheaper to run with COVID measures in place such as no indoor venue hire, which would help mitigate risk. Organisers would benefit from sharing ideas on this, and riders could  feedback on what measures would be more/less attractive to them.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on May 27, 2020, 07:37:25 pm
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"

All well and good, but from an Audax UK point of view, an approach like that is hugely problematic.  Events have to be entered/paid in advance, then ridden.  Stepping backwards gets people involved in a whole lot of refund pain.  Fiddling round the edges ofa plan involves volunteer effort that simply may not be forthcoming.

Aye, planning for anything else much in advance off that is pretty much hopeless, and now it appears that in England you could find a load of tape and bollards across the road saying "COVID ZONE KEEP OUT".  It seems that even when we get to a state where it's theoretically possible to run events, the chance of them having to be cancelled at short notice is high.

Scottish Cycling  have put out an update to cover the Phase 1 state.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/scotland/article/20200313-Scottish-Cycling-Coronavirus-COVID19-Guidance-0

Can't really see a socially distanced chain gang working too well..

There previous stance of no events until 1st August at earliest remains.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on May 27, 2020, 07:42:31 pm
There previous stance of no events until 1st August at earliest remains.

and Audax LEJOG has not been cancelled that finises in 31st July  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on May 27, 2020, 07:53:55 pm
Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:

https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on May 27, 2020, 08:11:30 pm
BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on May 28, 2020, 12:21:32 am
There previous stance of no events until 1st August at earliest remains.

and Audax LEJOG has not been cancelled that finises in 31st July  :thumbsup:

I'll be amazed if hostel style accommodation is allowed at that time.

Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:

https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html

Their concept of self-sufficient prohibits the use of "Commercial services and buildings in general"
So erm like shops then? 2000km only scavenging... right...

Probably get lynched at Gretna if they try and run it this year anyway.

BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.

Aligning with 2 makes some sense, though not a legal requirement "Social Distancing"* is here for a significant period.
* Amazingly none of the 4 nations rule sets makes the one single major factor in transmission actually illegal, and it's the one contact tracing is based around.

Edit: And as I flicked over to Facebook what appears first, land access issues.
Who's got governmental traction for that? Ramblers, BMC, MCofS etc.

Don't underestimate the advantage of being seen as a "governing body" by government.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on May 28, 2020, 06:45:46 am

Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:

https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html

Their concept of self-sufficient prohibits the use of "Commercial services and buildings in general"
So erm like shops then? 2000km only scavenging... right...

Not scavenging. Setting off at the start carrying sufficient food for the entire event. This is quite feasible. For the marathon des sables running race you have to carry 6 days of food and that is running. When travelling to somewhere uninhabited back in the 80s I had 4 weeks worth of food on a bike. The only resource you would scavenge for is water as that is too heavy to carry.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on May 28, 2020, 07:22:27 am
BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
Sportives of around 50 riders are a very good fit!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on May 28, 2020, 09:27:03 am
BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
Sportives of around 50 riders are a very good fit!

1-9 participants       Social riding
10-99 participants  club runs and majority of audax
100-999 participants   A small number of more popular audaxes
1000-9999 participants   Most sportives
10000+    A small number of more popular sportives
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: fboab on May 28, 2020, 11:11:20 am

Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:

https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html

Their concept of self-sufficient prohibits the use of "Commercial services and buildings in general"
So erm like shops then? 2000km only scavenging... right...

My friend is entered for this and they have hotels booked for the start, finish *and* part way round. She was saying last week they'd almost rather it was cancelled then at least they'd know what to do- postponement won't really help them re-plan, as they don't know what will be open then, either.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on May 29, 2020, 08:13:10 am
...hotels booked ... part way round.

Don't tell anyone - you might get her DQ'd!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: fboab on May 29, 2020, 08:51:18 am
It's entirely possible I had misunderstood
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: IanDG on May 29, 2020, 09:57:20 am
BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.

Conflicting advice from BC or different for Scotland?

The e-mail to the club states Sportives from 1st August but additional information from Scottish Cycling states Sportives from 1st September.

Quote
Suspension of British and Scottish Cycling Sanctioned Activity

All British Cycling sanctioned cycling activity is currently suspended until 30 June 2020.
While many of you have been enjoying the opportunity to ride recreationally, we appreciate
that the cycling community is looking for direction and certainty on when club, group and
competitive activity can resume.
The British Cycling position has been agreed with Scottish Cycling and Welsh Cycling, but we
recognise that devolved government guidance may dictate that adjustments are required,
including the dates we are working towards.
To support the Scottish Cycling clubs, event organisers and riders, the following guidance
will further explain the British Cycling extension to the suspension of activity, in Scotland.

International and British National level races, including British National Series, British
Championships and Sportives


British Cycling are extending the suspension of International and British National Series and
Championship races and all Sportives until 1 September 2020. This will include the British
National Series events which were due to take place in Scotland during that time.
British Cycling will review this on a fortnightly basis in line with UK Government advice and
will give six weeks’ public notice of any extension or curtailment of the suspension. British
Cycling, working with event organisers and stakeholders will lead on the process to
rearrange these events later in the calendar year if possible.
For Sportives in Scotland, these events must follow the Scottish Government advice, and
this will be communicated accordingly if there is any change to this suspension date.

Taking part in an Audax with 30 odd riders is one thing but the Dirty Reiver has been re-scheduled for a mid-September date. Don't think I want to congregate with 1000+ riders so soon. So probably a DNS from me if it goes ahead.



Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Giropaul on May 29, 2020, 02:05:42 pm
All the dates being talked about are possible best guesses. They are entirely conditional on the R number and other factors.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on May 29, 2020, 02:26:37 pm
The e-mail to the club states Sportives from 1st August but additional information from Scottish Cycling states Sportives from 1st September.

Since BC/SC have been in discussion with Scot gov, that suggests they have received the govs thinking on when we might get to phase 3.
We're still working to "end of September" as evidenced by the gov paying for the barriers to be lifted at the 3 PFI car parks.

I've heard detected cases are up locally, but likely due to a further availability of testing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 29, 2020, 04:14:32 pm
There has been some discussion on the AUK Forum regarding AUK's next steps.

<SNIP>
It does look increasingly likely that we will be faced with parts of the UK releasing at different speeds (I realise that is happening already but none of them has yet reached the point where we could consider resuming there).  We are also looking at a gradual release with announcements followed sometimes several days later by guidelines that do not always seem to be quite what people were expecting.

On that basis, we will need to consider and decide on the fundamentals around those issues - ie are we willing (or indeed able in some cases) to validate some types or durations of events but not others and to validate rides in some parts of the UK but not others - and make the appropriate announcement (probably too late for this week so more likely next).

At the same time, we await the detail on the next phases of release in each part of the UK with interest.  We are somehow going to have to deal with four different release processes whatever we decide.
<SNIP>
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on May 29, 2020, 10:55:52 pm
It's worth nothing that it has a reminder for  us that the points championships are null and void for the season.

Though nothing on how it affects awards that are time/season based.
Does it mean I have effe ticley half a season less to complete R/Bwotsit?



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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on June 06, 2020, 10:11:47 am
I would simply add a year to the multi-year awards like ACP’s Randonneur 5000 and AUK’s Brevet 5000 (five years instead of four, for awards overlapping 2020), since the 2019/2020 year has effectively been nullified with regards to long brevets.

Things like RRtY are trickier but adding extra months (to the normal 12 months) seems the simplest, rather than allowing riders to do ‘make up’ rides within the 12 month period.

Annual awards like AUK’s Randonneur 5000 just end up as possible or impossible in 2020, given individual circumstances. No ‘adjustments’ made at all. Such is life!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on June 06, 2020, 01:04:51 pm
I'd deal with RRTY by letting people resume on whichever date they do their next ride.

It only gets tricky if lockdown rules tighten again.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 06, 2020, 01:11:41 pm
I offer this for discussion and would value people identifying items which I should have covered. Has to be best to adopt a constructive approach. (On other thread too)

#DRAFTY (NOTAUDAX UK) - COVID19 – Event Guidelines & Risk Assessment - England                  
                  
These guidelines have been based on the advice issued by the UK government guidelines and apply to events wholly in England. There are 3 more sets of guidelines for the other nations.                  
                  
The guidelines will be reviewed and where necessary updated as more information comes to light regarding the restrictions. The complications of 'cross-border routes' will be addressed once the relevant nations guidelines are more closely aligned.                  
                  
Our priorities remain to protect the health of our members and volunteers, and to help to suppress the spread of the COVID-19 virus.                  
                  
Guidance for events                  
Organisers need to ensure people are advised of the following restrictions on who may attend any event. This should be communicated prior to any event (eg website or promotion) and displayed at registration/brevet pick-up/start/finish.                  

People (includes organisers/volunteers) should NOT attend any Audax UK registered cycling event:                  
            
Risk Management During Event                  
Event organisers should identify opportunities to reduce the risk to riders and volunteers (organising and helping) through: taking sensible precautions and implementing practices which reduce the chance of infection and which support social distancing (SDing). These include:                  
Volunteer Plan - A clear volunteer event plan is in place. This is to ensure that all volunteers are comfortable and fully understand their roles and timings for the event, that measures are taken to maintain the welfare and safety of volunteers, and to ensure they can comply with all social distancing requirements.                  
Event Promotion - With event size likely to be limited, events should only be promoted to Audax UK members. This can be through newsletters, social media and emails. Organisers should avoid publicising events externally (eg to clubs not on the Audax UK list).                  
Entry Forms - Pre-entry forms should require entrants to tick a box to acknowledge that they must not attend if they or a member of their household has COVID-19 symptoms.                   
Limited number of Entries - There may be a government limit on the number of people who can safely attend an event. Local restrictions may also apply. You must have measures in place to ensure you comply with these requirements, such as only allowing pre-entries                  
Start times - Giving each entrant an allocated window to arrive at the event and to start may help to spread out riders and avoid large gatherings of people                  
Start time - May need to express this as a 'window' to allow small groups to be set off at intervals, to spread riders out and support social distancing at the start and in any groups early on.                  
Refunds - Organisers should offer a refund to anyone who needs to withdraw their entry for health reason.                  
Registration - default to siting this outside. Consider arrangements where no volunteer is needed and facilitates social distancing during brevet pick-up. If a volunteer manning any desk is necessary, consider their need for access to PPE (glasses and mask) and hand sanitizer.                   
Personal Responsibility - Ensure that all riders are directed to the “Participant Code of Conduct” document.                  
Brevets - Cards can be individually bagged (by the organiser with washed hands) folded to display the rider's name, prior to issue at the event. A number of spare brevets should be prepared as a back-up.                   
Start Area - Starts will need to be chosen to support any social distancing requirements with sufficient space for riders.                  
Arrivee - Location needs to be chosen to support any social distancing requirements with sufficient space for arriving riders. Consider siting location for handing in brevets outside while observing any social distancing requirements. Encourage people to move away from that area.                    
                  
                  
After Event Cleaning - Materials must be cleaned before and after use.                  
                  
                  
Toilets - If, given lack of access to eg community centre or pub 'facilities', mobile toilets are used, the units should be spaced out and the queue structured to comply with any social distancing requirements. Handles should be disinfected frequently.                  
Pre- and Post- Ride Socialising - Organisers should not promote or encourage pre- or post-ride socialising.                  
                  
Hand Cleaning Facilities - If practicable provide hand washing or sanitising facilities at start and finish.                  
Participant Hygiene - Asking all that attend to follow good hygiene practices and maintain physical space between each other.                  

Whoever is leading on producing the Audax UK Risk Assessment is welcome to ask for a copy of this. There'd be a quid pro quo.
[/quote]
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: alfapete on June 06, 2020, 05:17:23 pm
Ajax Bay:

I notice there are three sets of guidelines for the other nations too. I hope you're currently working on those to keep yourself occupied.

When the time is right the Board will produce something like this in an hour or two, they might have something drafted already. Do you think yours will help inform them in any way?

I'm not intending to be mean but I don't 'get' the motivation for posting it....other than to promote even more time discussing hypotheticals.

You need to get out on your bike!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on June 06, 2020, 05:28:29 pm
I look forward to Ajax Bay standing for election to the Auk board. He is clearly itching to get involved.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on June 06, 2020, 05:43:55 pm
alphapete, having been on the Board myself when it approved the IT contract (to my shame), I believe that having extra eyes considering the best way to accommodate this situation would be an advantage. Leaving everything to the Board alone might mean that something important is not considered.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 06, 2020, 07:34:38 pm
Ajax Bay:
I notice there are three sets of guidelines for the other nations too. I hope you're currently working on those to keep yourself occupied.
When the time is right the Board will produce something like this in an hour or two, they might have something drafted already. Do you think yours will help inform them in any way?
I'm not intending to be mean but I don't 'get' the motivation for posting it....other than to promote even more time discussing hypotheticals.
You need to get out on your bike!
Very kind, Pete. Pleased with my level of riding given the limitations, thanks. It was a bit windy down here today. I hope you too are enjoying your ride(s).
I have a draft of the other three sets of guidelines but since, in particular, Wales and Scotland are on a different point on the curve, I'm hoping that getting the set applying to England to a decent standard will inform the others. These took me, as you put it, "an hour or two".
It would have been great if you could suggest improvements or missing items - making a contribution - rather than regurgitating the mindset, shared by others and entirely reasonable, that 'Daddy will know best' and 'Daddy has probably sorted this out already' so your (that is: my) comments are nugatory. Which "hypotheticals" do you think are not worth discussing? Just name one! I suggest that these 'hypotheticals' will suddenly (change in UK government guidelines) become possibilities. How irritating would it be not to have spent time planning for resumption?

I see yacf as a useful, well-frequented forum and my motivation for posting is to offer a risk management framework for the safe and prudent resumption of calendar events (and to avoid/procrastinate mowing the grass). We have been assured upthread that the Board and those helping them read this thread. I also thought others - there are several experienced organisers on here -  might share useful ideas which will help all organisers, when things resume.

I happen to think that whoever in/on the Audax UK Board is leading on this might find what I've constructed useful. I would really like to see the current draft, and said this here a fortnight ago (thread deleted for as yet unrevealed reasons). Perhaps the Audax UK Forum might be the best place for that. The Audax UK Gen Sec said 10 days ago "we have been and will be looking in detail at the risks associated with resuming some or all of our activities." And our Chairman said "we will give organisers and members at least 2 weeks’ notice of any aspect of the suspension being lifted." 4 July is only 4 weeks away but hopefully that will be short calendar events, which is the type of event where the considerations I shared above are mostly relevant.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on June 06, 2020, 08:35:32 pm
As a organizer i have canceled my events for this year and possibly  next year as well.

300km in july
200km in September
400km in October

To much uncertainty about to plan ahead etc

As for next year , i don't plan to run events till things are normal again.

I am perfectly happy to let ajax bray know , staggered starts and allocated starts wouldn't work for me as a organizer ( i start my events and then have to go to work) , then as a rider i ride events with my mates ,riding with other people is what cycling is about.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 06, 2020, 08:57:29 pm
Evening @postie
I envisage staggered starts having merit when there is a large field. Setting off 10 every 5 minutes would achieve a good spread - eg your Wonderful Wessex 300: 0525 0530 0535 with the last off at 0550. And still allow you to be away to work.
This spread of start times should also mean less peak presence (and therefore make it even easier to maintain social distancing) at the first control.
As for riding with friends, a nuanced approach could be adopted which set a stated group off in one start. We just need to manage how we get from now to then.
I do hope you feel able to run your events next year and I'd hope to ride one.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on June 07, 2020, 10:33:17 am
It would have been great if you could suggest improvements or missing items - making a contribution - rather than regurgitating the mindset, shared by others and entirely reasonable, that 'Daddy will know best' and 'Daddy has probably sorted this out already' so your (that is: my) comments are nugatory. Which "hypotheticals" do you think are not worth discussing? Just name one! I suggest that these 'hypotheticals' will suddenly (change in UK government guidelines) become possibilities. How irritating would it be not to have spent time planning for resumption?

It is because the situation seems so fluid - and, frankly, out of 'our' hands - that spending time on planning is futile.

And its not a case of 'Daddy knows best' because events are run by individual organisers, not by Audax UK.  AUK simply provide a framework and individual organisers can choose to operate within that framework, or not.  Over the years some organisers have chosen to go the 'this is not an AUK event' route and some of those events have flourished.  Its a free world.
Organisers choosing to run AUK events operate within AUK's rules (which includes staying within the Law) and they would not welcome a whole additional layer of conditions, as you seem to be proposing upthread.  My guess is that most of them would rather cancel.
Even without the impositiion of extra conditions by AUK it seems clear that there will be a lot of cancellations  AUK seems doomed to dwindle as a result, and may have to re-invent itself in a slimmed-down form in coming years.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Big Saxon on June 07, 2020, 12:37:00 pm
At Team MK we are sticking strictly to BC guidance, to the extent that we do not even want riders to wear team kit for non club rides as the public can easily identify us and have reported groups, possibly from the same family. Drivers are already becoming aggressive on the roads as traffic increases, so we do not want to give them any further encouragement to target cyclists.

We are not trying to interpret the rules or find loopholes, we will just do what we are told until new guidance is given, it is not just the riders on the road, it is all the places we may stop that have to be considered, hopefully many cafes will operate efficiently without compromising safety, my concern is the lack of washing and toilet facilities over long distances, even though we are self sufficient.

Audax will return, we will adapt, and old friendships renewed. I work in the investment field, and time is my best friend if I wait long enough.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on June 07, 2020, 03:37:33 pm
I am perfectly happy to let ajax bray know , staggered starts and allocated starts wouldn't work for me as a organizer ( i start my events and then have to go to work) , then as a rider i ride events with my mates ,riding with other people is what cycling is about.
That's perfectly sensible - we are bound to lose events where organisers can't make their events work under the pandemic laws/guidelines.

This is obviously sad, but it's no reason to throw the other babies out with the bath-water.

Meanwhile, there are perms to be sorted out!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on June 08, 2020, 09:50:59 pm
I received the email from the AUK perms sec; perfectly happy to make all my 100-200k perms (even the overseas one) available as soon as the All UK guidelines suggest they are safe for riders and others
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on June 08, 2020, 10:00:18 pm
I received the email from the AUK perms sec; perfectly happy to make all my 100-200k perms (even the overseas one) available as soon as the All UK guidelines suggest they are safe for riders and others

I entered one of your 200s just before lockdown, given I can start 5 miles from home.  The problem is I’ll have moved out of the area before I can ride it.  Such is life.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 09, 2020, 02:48:38 pm
UPDATE from CTT on 8 June 2020
[My emboldening]
 
"This update relates to CTT events in England only.  It does not relate to events in Wales or Scotland.

"At the beginning of June, the Government relaxed the restrictions on social distancing.  Whereas it is still not considered possible nor indeed appropriate to recommence CTT events as yet, it is anticipated that on or around 04 July the current restrictions may be relaxed further.  In anticipation of that being the case, it is hoped that it may be possible to resume CTT events in July 2020.
 
"Currently all CTT events are suspended up to and including 30 June 2020.  To allow time to properly consider the expected Government guidance, Type B ‘club’ events are further suspended up to and including 05 July 2020 and all Type A events are further suspended up to and including 17 July 2020.

"The safety of competitors and all those involved with the event must be paramount.  It has to be made clear that competition can be resumed only if the Government guidelines are relaxed sufficiently so as to allow for time trials to take place, and it is considered those guidelines can be fully adhered to regarding social distancing.  If this proves to be the case, Type B ‘club’ events can be held from 06 July 2020 and Type A events from 18 July 2020.
In taking this decision it is emphasised that there is no pressure at all on clubs or organisers to hold their events.  Whether to proceed with an event is entirely at the discretion of the relevant CTT district, the individual club and the individual promotor of the event.

"A full coronavirus risk assessment and guidance as to what steps to put in place to mitigate potential risk has been prepared and will be circulated to all CTT districts, CTT affiliated clubs and event organisers shortly."   
 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on June 14, 2020, 08:55:05 am
I guess the AUK Board will be meeting in the next week about possible changes at the beginning of July, given how cycling and other sports are moving. I look forward to a statement regarding a unified or regional approach and some more information regarding a staged resumption of activities.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on June 14, 2020, 05:36:46 pm
Until there is some change in regs/ guidelines from the government,  nothing will change for audax uk.
My advice is simple really, let the board do what it needs to do and in time events etc will return,  till then go ride your bike its great fun even with out a brevet card in your pocket,  trust me :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 14, 2020, 06:24:56 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 14, 2020, 06:58:19 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on June 14, 2020, 07:20:40 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 14, 2020, 07:24:54 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
Something official by government saying 4th July ?


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on June 14, 2020, 08:00:27 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
Something official by government saying 4th July ?


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Yes

Have a read of their strategy document Covid 19 plan to rebuild.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 14, 2020, 08:18:05 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
Something official by government saying 4th July ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes

Have a read of their strategy document Covid 19 plan to rebuild.
This - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/our-plan-to-rebuild-the-uk-governments-covid-19-recovery-strategy/our-plan-to-rebuild-the-uk-governments-covid-19-recovery-strategy#our-roadmap-to-lift-restrictions-step-by-step

Doesn’t mention camping, just “accommodation” unless I have missed something. It makes sense to do camping before hotels, but I haven’t seen anything official.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on June 15, 2020, 07:19:25 am
There was some "official muttering" from Westminster about allowing self-catering accomodation to open before hotels - because the occupants are separated from other folk - but I don't recall it ever reaching an official document.

Don't recall anything about camping; I guess it's just not on a govt adviser's radar!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 15, 2020, 11:55:04 am
I wonder if they have inside info.

Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.

Accommodation covers site based camping...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 15, 2020, 01:20:39 pm
I wonder if they have inside info.

Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.

Accommodation covers site based camping...

No Audax sleeping, feeding toilet facilities i have ever used meet the criteria. I use dormitory sleeping facilities in hostels with shared showers and toilets. These tend to operate on a shoestring budget and now they need to deep clean twice a day and apply distance rules in shared kitchens and dining facilities.

Forget 2020. Plan for 2021.

BB 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 15, 2020, 02:47:07 pm
I wonder if they have inside info.

Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.

Accommodation covers site based camping...

No Audax sleeping, feeding toilet facilities i have ever used meet the criteria. I use dormitory sleeping facilities in hostels with shared showers and toilets. These tend to operate on a shoestring budget and now they need to deep clean twice a day and apply distance rules in shared kitchens and dining facilities.

Forget 2020. Plan for 2021.

BB
Cross off the events with mandatory sleeping, feeding and toilet facilities off for 2020.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 15, 2020, 03:08:29 pm
I wonder if they have inside info.

Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.

Accommodation covers site based camping...

No Audax sleeping, feeding toilet facilities i have ever used meet the criteria. I use dormitory sleeping facilities in hostels with shared showers and toilets. These tend to operate on a shoestring budget and now they need to deep clean twice a day and apply distance rules in shared kitchens and dining facilities.

Forget 2020. Plan for 2021.

BB

Same, I've been specifically thinking about how Hostels can operate shared spaces, and the follow up to that for hiking clubs using huts and hostels.
I came to the conclusion that it's likely to be "phase 4" in Scottish parlance; and that's nae gonae be this year.
Ach weel at least we can sit oot in the pairk an enjoy the haar fae thirsday....
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Genosse Brymbo on June 15, 2020, 04:54:26 pm
Until there is some change in regs/ guidelines from the government,  nothing will change for audax uk.
My advice is simple really, let the board do what it needs to do and in time events etc will return,  till then go ride your bike its great fun even with out a brevet card in your pocket,  trust me :thumbsup:
Wot he said^^^  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on June 15, 2020, 05:07:03 pm
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.

Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.

All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on June 15, 2020, 07:20:19 pm
...
Same, I've been specifically thinking about how Hostels can operate shared spaces, and the follow up to that for hiking clubs using huts and hostels.
I came to the conclusion that it's likely to be "phase 4" in Scottish parlance; and that's nae gonae be this year.
Ach weel at least we can sit oot in the pairk an enjoy the haar fae thirsday....
Nothing to do with Audax; but given how much dosh our YHA (& SYHA?) make from group bookings, they would seem nae trouble quite feasible for family groups. Same with bothys or small club huts. [Just leave a week between bookings, basically.]
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 15, 2020, 07:47:55 pm
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.

Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.

All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.

Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on June 15, 2020, 07:58:43 pm
As it stands at the moment it is not definite that TTs are coming back.  It looks like club TTs could be first as they have limited numbers and are light on facilities.  Open events should follow afterwards but it is down to the organiser and district.  2 districts have already cancelled all their remaining 2020 events.  I think it will be 50:50.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 15, 2020, 08:15:32 pm
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.

Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.

All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.

Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.

BB
1.7 Are there restrictions on how far I can travel for my exercise or outdoor activity?
No. You can travel to outdoor open space irrespective of distance, as long as you can return the same night and do not put others at risk because of services you may need in the time you are away. You should continue to avoid using public transport and should cycle, walk or drive wherever possible.

If visiting other parts of the UK – Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – you must adhere to the laws and guidance of the devolved administrations at all times.

You shouldn’t travel with someone from outside your household or, from 13 June, your support bubble unless you can practise social distancing - for example by cycling.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on June 15, 2020, 08:20:04 pm
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.

Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.

All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.

Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.

BB

Point of order: TTs do not require police approval, they have an automatic right to happen as long as the police are informed with a legal minimum notice period.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on June 15, 2020, 09:13:19 pm
Currently all tt are suspended till at least the 5th of july, it seeme like half the country ( England)  they are expecting some big change to happen on the 4th of july!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on June 15, 2020, 09:30:52 pm
Currently all tt are suspended till at least the 5th of july, it seeme like half the country ( England)  they are expecting some big change to happen on the 4th of july!

Club TTs to 5th July.  Opens for an extra couple of weeks.  Both dates to be reviewed after 4th July.

CTT have issued detailed guidance and risk assessments that explain how they expect TTs to be run should they be able to and if the organiser is willing.

This is what you might call a roadmap for a return to racing, albeit with some caveats. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 15, 2020, 10:15:23 pm
...
Same, I've been specifically thinking about how Hostels can operate shared spaces, and the follow up to that for hiking clubs using huts and hostels.
I came to the conclusion that it's likely to be "phase 4" in Scottish parlance; and that's nae gonae be this year.
Ach weel at least we can sit oot in the pairk an enjoy the haar fae thirsday....
Nothing to do with Audax; but given how much dosh our YHA (& SYHA?) make from group bookings, they would seem nae trouble quite feasible for family groups. Same with bothys or small club huts. [Just leave a week between bookings, basically.]

Hostels with Ensuite private room capacity should be able to operate to some level; problem is, that's not a lot of them and not very many rooms.
There's still then the problem of shared kitchens and dining areas which potentially cuts things down to one group at a time.

The problem with larger groups is they tend to be multi-household and therefore the 2m rule and needing to deep clean everything...
Same goes for club huts although running them as private lets for families is possibly feasible they're not necessarily covered for that by regs and insurance.

It's bad enough having to wipe down the office every evening to meet teh rulez.

Bothies are potentially fucked, land owners are pissed off enough at people wandering through working areas, fly camping is making things worse and when it comes to using the bothies, they're starting to get locked by the owners.
This all sets back land access rights which has been a delicate balance in some places already...

But aye way off audax now; was really just to highlight the feasibility of longer distance rides with shared facilities at controls.

I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.

Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.

"Stay Local" disappears at Phase 3 in Scotland (there would be feck all point accommodation providers opening if that stayed in place); in England you can go as far in England as you want as long as you can get home and don't need to stop for the bog.

"Glen Coe" ski centre have halved the number of lodges and camping pitches they'll have open.
This also indicates that shared ablutions will be open, or Scot Loo* are getting a big order for installing extra facilities..

* Other purveyors of temporary cludgie facilities are available.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 15, 2020, 10:48:38 pm
All this been said the rate in the UK population is now (according to the latest figures) down to 1 in 1600 people and if you are fit and healthy and do not have any of the risk factors like diabetes then risk of death from infection does not rise until you are over 70. There have been rare and highly publicised cases of young people been made very ill with Corvid-19, but more under 21s have died with electrical accidents since the lock down than with Corvid-19.

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.

To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.

BB 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 15, 2020, 10:54:55 pm
Point of order: TTs do not require police approval, they have an automatic right to happen as long as the police are informed with a legal minimum notice period.

Unless things have changed since I was involved in TTs all courses are risk assessed and the routes are submitted to the police. Some busy roads had to to car counted and this would be considered and the course withdrawn or only allowed to run at certain times. So if the course is approved and the risk assessment accepted and the police have no objection because of perceived danger to riders or the public or the time or date, then yes they will be allowed to run.

BB   
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 15, 2020, 10:58:52 pm
There's 2 elements to the travel
1) is not spreading it about the island which is where your argument about most demographic groups having v. Low risk of death fails a bit as we still don't fully understand asymptomatic transmission or length of contact required to transmit.
The later is why we're still encouraged to minimize how often we shop

2) is about how health care is provisioned and funded.
If you were to come off your bike on oh say the Berriedale braes, there's a provisioning problem because you have to be got to Inverness, normally that's not too bad, either an ambulance appears from wick and takes you south or one of the 4 helicopters turns up.
Problem is, the crews are socially distancing and ppe'ed to the hilt, whys this a problem? It slows response time down.
People will die and will have died because of slower emergency response due to infection control.
The funding is a bit more interesting. (this isn't 100% but is my understanding of it), it's based on population with some uplift for tourists, sort of. Its not a direct problem because of you turn up at raigmore with an NHS number, you get a Chi and a bill gets sent to the appropriate Trust, if I turn up, some sort of jigger poker goes on and Fife somehow pay for it.
The problem is there's only enough beds for locals and a handful of tourists based on a balance of acceptable care and affordable care, then there's the elephant in the room.
Theaters, wards and recovery rooms have been turned into sub-hospitals to cover for patients turning up with covid, that's not just patients with breathing problems etc, that's patients turning up with sprained ankles, broken legs etc.
And for as long as we care about trying to avoid hospital acquired sars-cov-2 that's going to have to remain the case.

Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on June 16, 2020, 01:07:49 am
Point of order: TTs do not require police approval, they have an automatic right to happen as long as the police are informed with a legal minimum notice period.

Unless things have changed since I was involved in TTs all courses are risk assessed and the routes are submitted to the police. Some busy roads had to to car counted and this would be considered and the course withdrawn or only allowed to run at certain times. So if the course is approved and the risk assessment accepted and the police have no objection because of perceived danger to riders or the public or the time or date, then yes they will be allowed to run.

BB

You're misremembering.  Risk assessments and traffic counts are purely internal measures; the latter were introduced for sporting rather than safety reasons, though they're now regarded as having a safety element.  Police do not need to give permission for a TT to be run on a road, they only need to be notified that it will run whether they like it or not.  This has been the case since well before your racing time - unless you happen to date back to the 19th century.  If you remember the police giving permission, you remember wrong. 
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 16, 2020, 05:08:27 am

Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.

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16,000 x 40,500 = 648,000,000

You either have an extra zero somewhere or illegal immigration was higher than reported.

Edit: on reading the previous post I see it was meant to be 1 in 1600.

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Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 16, 2020, 05:23:43 am
There's 2 elements to the travel
1) is not spreading it about the island which is where your argument about most demographic groups having v. Low risk of death fails a bit as we still don't fully understand asymptomatic transmission or length of contact required to transmit.
The later is why we're still encouraged to minimize how often we shop

2) is about how health care is provisioned and funded.
If you were to come off your bike on oh say the Berriedale braes, there's a provisioning problem because you have to be got to Inverness, normally that's not too bad, either an ambulance appears from wick and takes you south or one of the 4 helicopters turns up.
Problem is, the crews are socially distancing and ppe'ed to the hilt, whys this a problem? It slows response time down.
People will die and will have died because of slower emergency response due to infection control.
The funding is a bit more interesting. (this isn't 100% but is my understanding of it), it's based on population with some uplift for tourists, sort of. Its not a direct problem because of you turn up at raigmore with an NHS number, you get a Chi and a bill gets sent to the appropriate Trust, if I turn up, some sort of jigger poker goes on and Fife somehow pay for it.
The problem is there's only enough beds for locals and a handful of tourists based on a balance of acceptable care and affordable care, then there's the elephant in the room.
Theaters, wards and recovery rooms have been turned into sub-hospitals to cover for patients turning up with covid, that's not just patients with breathing problems etc, that's patients turning up with sprained ankles, broken legs etc.
And for as long as we care about trying to avoid hospital acquired sars-cov-2 that's going to have to remain the case.

Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.

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Those are all good arguments against tourism but not specifically about tourism by bike. If authorities decide tourism is ok and the benefits outweigh the risks, then I would have thought that would apply to bicycle travel too.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 16, 2020, 08:42:20 am
Yes hence why "the travel"

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on June 16, 2020, 01:40:55 pm

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.


We will be able to afford the NHS.  We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.

This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 16, 2020, 08:35:48 pm

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.


We will be able to afford the NHS.  We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.

This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
The economy will shrink by about 10% this year (but who knows) and the costs of ferloughing are not yet known. The rest of the world is doing this as well. Who knows what will happen?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 16, 2020, 08:59:09 pm

Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.

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16,000 x 40,500 = 648,000,000

You either have an extra zero somewhere or illegal immigration was higher than reported.

Edit: on reading the previous post I see it was meant to be 1 in 1600.

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The error is 1,600 x 40,500 = 64,800,000

Some where the 1:1600 became 16,000 in requote.

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Giropaul on June 16, 2020, 09:15:04 pm

To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.

BB

The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 16, 2020, 09:32:43 pm

To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.

BB
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 16, 2020, 09:43:58 pm

To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.

BB

The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).
In the same way as visiting the supermarket (or zoo or vendor of soft furnishings) you could pick up an infection and”seed” a new cluster. I will assess risks nearer the time and decide whether to use provided accommodation or food (if either is still offered) and decide whether to isolate on return (something I would not bother with after a trip to the supermarket). The cycling part of audax must be one of the most risk free activities in existence from a covid point of view. It is how and to what extent you engage in the non cycling parts that could pose a risk.

People will continue to get covid-19 for months or even years to come. The infrastructure (testing, contact tracing,isolation) needs to be in place to stop infected people causing an outbreak.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on June 16, 2020, 09:47:14 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

The article supposedly[1] discusses the Caravan and Motorhome Club (formerly the Caravan Club), which is a different organisation to the Camping and Caravanning Club.  This is a bit People's Front of Judea, I know, but it's important if you want to use a members-only site or camp in a tent.

C&CC have a statement detailing their COVID-19 measures here: https://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/travelplanning/coronavirus/


[1] The quoted statements look suspiciously like those on the above page, so it's possible the author was confused, or they've heavily borrowed from each other's wording (I can't tell, the Caravan and Motorhome Club website isn't working).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 16, 2020, 09:51:27 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

The article discusses the Caravan and Motorhome Club (formerly the Caravan Club), which is a different organisation to the Camping and Caravanning Club.  This is a bit People's Front of Judea, I know, but it's important if you want to use a members-only site or camp in a tent.

I think the point I was trying to make was that if an organised site is imposing such strict rule how can an event that has no controls or structure happen?

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on June 16, 2020, 09:55:18 pm
I think the point I was trying to make was that if an organised site is imposing such strict rule how can an event that has no controls or structure happen?

Sure, I just thought it was prudent to flag up that there are two organisations with similar names, since their policies may differ and one of them is basically useless for cycle-campers.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 16, 2020, 10:03:09 pm
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).

I was trying to avoid saying it outright, but... I don't think it's particularly feasible.

This is why professional sports that don't socially distance by default are coming back before amateur.
At work we've been told that any reason to quarantine will need to be taken as annual leave and to discuss with line managers.
Although that's aimed at holidays, the same applies for the sports people amongst us.

Scottish Football (yes yes I know) are postponing the start of next season and shortening it by 9 games for all but the "Premier" league in the hope of avoiding restrictions on players, many are part time and have better paying jobs to go to.

In the same way as visiting the supermarket (or zoo or vendor of soft furnishings) you could pick up an infection and”seed” a new cluster. I will assess risks nearer the time and decide whether to use provided accommodation or food (if either is still offered) and decide whether to isolate on return (something I would not bother with after a trip to the supermarket). The cycling part of audax must be one of the most risk free activities in existence from a covid point of view. It is how and to what extent you engage in the non cycling parts that could pose a risk.

People will continue to get covid-19 for months or even years to come. The infrastructure (testing, contact tracing,isolation) needs to be in place to stop infected people causing an outbreak.

Viral load from brief encounters is likely to be minimal, so the supermarket etc, not too bad.
It's one of the reasons with lockdown the shift from community spread to care home and hospital wards was so noticeable.
But then patients are getting pre-screened before electives and outpatient attendances and testing positive with no symptoms so there's transmission in the wilds too.

Cycling in isloation is indeed one of the most risk free you can get, and if it does go wrong,  you can probably walk home, or if it's bad bad and need to be carted off to a nearby hospital at least there's no firemen needed to cut you out or (usually) MRT to recover you, just a paramedic and a driver needed before the ED take over.
Obviously aimed at walk ins but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVMCvbqngpA gives an idea of what extra is involved.

It's just the split of capacity that's a problem if everyone goes nuts and demand goes back to normal.
Could be worse... could be Ne'ers...



Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 16, 2020, 10:09:21 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

The article supposedly[1] discusses the Caravan and Motorhome Club (formerly the Caravan Club), which is a different organisation to the Camping and Caravanning Club.  This is a bit People's Front of Judea, I know, but it's important if you want to use a members-only site or camp in a tent.

C&CC have a statement detailing their COVID-19 measures here: https://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/travelplanning/coronavirus/


[1] The quoted statements look suspiciously like those on the above page, so it's possible the author was confused, or they've heavily borrowed from each other's wording (I can't tell, the Caravan and Motorhome Club website isn't working).

I'm sure it said CCC* when I posted it, I jsut spotted

Quote
They will not be opening Ready Camp Safari Tents, Pods or Self-Catering units this season
That's interesting as Pods and Self-Catering units is something a lot of places are opening in lieu of anything else; guess it must be partly down to staffing as most CCC and CC sites are staffed by an old couple living in a caravan next to reception and if they're lucky, some assistants.

* This is how their membership fee appears on my Direct Debits, I'm always slightly disapointed that it's not a revival of Cars and Car Conversions
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 17, 2020, 10:28:23 am
The cycling part of audax must be one of the most risk free activities in existence from a covid point of view. It is how and to what extent you engage in the non cycling parts that could pose a risk.
People will continue to get covid-19 for months or even years to come. The infrastructure (testing, contact tracing,isolation) needs to be in place to stop infected people causing an outbreak.
Cycling in isloation is indeed one of the most risk free you can get
I wonder what the risk of virus transmission would have been in this Tyneside Vagabonds CC Reliability Ride in '62?
https://youtu.be/6DNUIxubdGg
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on June 17, 2020, 10:55:49 am
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Solocle on June 17, 2020, 11:23:07 am
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on June 17, 2020, 11:34:59 am
  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)

Some of us have no choice  :-[
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 17, 2020, 11:54:51 am
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?). As for overnighting still been an issue it will be interesting to see how hotels start to open up as this will dictate the rules for overnight stays and will be done before hostels and communal sleeping areas. I do not think people biveing solo in fields has crossed the policy makers minds.

I will comment on the support car topic, that will open another can or worms.

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 17, 2020, 01:01:21 pm
Let's stop knashing teeth about the challenges of overnight stops not on the road. All rides up to 300 can be ridden without the organiser providing a place to stop (and x-rated 400s plus likewise). So let's get the 'up-to-300' calendar events back on the road, or at least have a road map (aka plan without specific dates) for so doing.
For calendar events, it would be great to enjoy some sociability at the start, at controls and at the finish. For me this is a major attraction and why most of my rides are calendar ones.
But for a while that will be an aspect that it's likely will have to be very limited and subject to control measures to mitigate the perceived or actual risk  with an inevitable reduction in that aspect of our rides. I suggested some possible ways of doing that (control measures) in my post a while ago and I see that PW has outlined a not dissimilar set on the AudaxUK forum. So let's get on with that.
For those for whom the social interactions are a key aspect of audaxing, the option exists now to arrange adhoc and non-validated group rides themselves with others of no more than 6 (current England rules) and down in Devon we have been doing this. Individuals and small groups around the UK can be encouraged in this with the reauthorisation of Perms (incl DIY type). Would this not be a 'good thing' in the current relevant guidance and legislation framework?
Worth keeping in mind that Audax UK's first-listed principal objective is "to encourage, promote, develop and control the sport and pastime of non competitive long distance cycling . . ."
Chairman AudaxUK (4 June): "we have agreed that we may validate events of shorter duration or individual/small group events such as Permanents and DIYs prior to re-commencing all events, but this will be entirely dependent on any further changes to the relevant guidance and legislation . . . . Organisers will have total discretion over whether events that can go ahead will go ahead."
"the current suspension of all events will remain in place until July 4th at the earliest and that we will give organisers and members at least 2 weeks’ notice . .    The Board will be meeting again in mid-June"
"2 week's notice" before 4 July is 20 June - not long. I hope the Board take a positive approach to the reintroduction of its support (encouragement, promotion) for long distance cycling, within the bounds of national laws and guidelines (control) applying to the roads being ridden.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on June 17, 2020, 01:06:03 pm
Indeed. Given CTT’s recent announcements, I expect that the Board has met or is meeting this week to decide whether AUK will restart in a unified fashion or regionally (I expect the second) and to set out how it will happen.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on June 17, 2020, 01:07:48 pm
national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 
Not only that but interest rates paid by governments are now lower than ever before and some governments are achieving borrowing at negative interest rates which means they're making a (small) profit on the borrowing. So let's be unworried by the cost to the future taxpayer. It still has to be paid back, but the burden to the future taxpayer is lower than it has been in the past.

In a nutshell: if we have to have a pandemic, now is the time.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 17, 2020, 01:44:59 pm
Where is the soap and water to wash your hands?
The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 17, 2020, 02:25:58 pm
Where is the soap and water to wash your hands?
The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


High5 makes terrible hand wash, believe me I tried it by mistake once.  :P

It definitely looks like we should be able to restart DIYs in July in some form here with the forecast lifting of travel restrictions for leisure.
Wales may be an ongoing sticking point.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on June 17, 2020, 04:36:47 pm
national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 
Not only that but interest rates paid by governments are now lower than ever before and some governments are achieving borrowing at negative interest rates which means they're making a (small) profit on the borrowing. So let's be unworried by the cost to the future taxpayer. It still has to be paid back, but the burden to the future taxpayer is lower than it has been in the past.

In a nutshell: if we have to have a pandemic, now is the time.

As readers of the FT will know, it doesn't even have to be paid back - just rolled over / refinanced at some point.  Paying it back would be unhelpfully deflationary.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on June 17, 2020, 07:04:45 pm
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?).
Yup, jobsa good'un. Or do this:

The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


So that's the sleeping issues and the hygiene issues sorted. We'll have to wait a long time for events with 50 mats laid-out in a village hall or school, but so be-it. (there will probably be an intermediate period where the more extravagant riders on an X-600+ can book hotel rooms!)

And of course perms can be started pretty much ASAP, the board just need to show willing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 17, 2020, 07:23:44 pm
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?).
Yup, jobsa good'un. Or do this:

The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


So that's the sleeping issues and the hygiene issues sorted. We'll have to wait a long time for events with 50 mats laid-out in a village hall or school, but so be-it. (there will probably be an intermediate period where the more extravagant riders on an X-600+ can book hotel rooms!)

And of course perms can be started pretty much ASAP, the board just need to show willing.
I must admit I am fairly new to audax with only 1 full season to my name; my only sleeping in a control was for about 2 hours in fougères on pbp last summer. Otherwise I have slept in hotels or a bivvy bag on the half dozen occasions overnight was involved.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 17, 2020, 10:00:02 pm
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?).
Yup, jobsa good'un. Or do this:

The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


So that's the sleeping issues and the hygiene issues sorted. We'll have to wait a long time for events with 50 mats laid-out in a village hall or school, but so be-it. (there will probably be an intermediate period where the more extravagant riders on an X-600+ can book hotel rooms!)

And of course perms can be started pretty much ASAP, the board just need to show willing.
I must admit I am fairly new to audax with only 1 full season to my name; my only sleeping in a control was for about 2 hours in fougères on pbp last summer. Otherwise I have slept in hotels or a bivvy bag on the half dozen occasions overnight was involved.


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Only 2 hours sleeping on pbp. How fast were you?

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on June 17, 2020, 10:03:07 pm
Where is the soap and water to wash your hands?
The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


High5 makes terrible hand wash, believe me I tried it by mistake once.  :P

It definitely looks like we should be able to restart DIYs in July in some form here with the forecast lifting of travel restrictions for leisure.
Wales may be an ongoing sticking point.


All my permanents are in Wales  :demon: :facepalm:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on June 17, 2020, 10:04:20 pm
BB, I think you missed the “in a control”. He may well have snoozed elsewhere along the PBP route.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 17, 2020, 10:04:22 pm
Only two hours sleep in a control. I slept in various other places to a total of 9 hours.

Edit: including a surprise half hour. I was quite happily cycling along counting down to 200km to go when I woke up snuggled in a doorway.

Edit edit: 52 hours of cycling, 9 hours of sleeping, 7 hours fritterage. It is the last number that still surprises me. I felt I was jogging through the controls grabbing food on the run most of the time.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on June 17, 2020, 11:12:53 pm
This is rather my point.  Considering long-distance cycling in terms of "where/how do I sleep" is rather bizarre.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 17, 2020, 11:19:43 pm
Rather nice e-mail recieved.
1st August for distances up to 200km as DIY/Perm unless there's a spanner thrown at the works.

Awards to restart at same time, championships still suspended though.
And 6 months grace to restart RRTYs in.

Amongst other things.

Sensible
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on June 17, 2020, 11:33:01 pm
Rather nice e-mail recieved.
1st August for distances up to 200km as DIY/Perm unless there's a spanner thrown at the works.

Awards to restart at same time, championships still suspended though.
And 6 months grace to restart RRTYs in.

Amongst other things.

Sensible

Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on June 17, 2020, 11:33:39 pm
Yes, agreed. Hit just the right note, I thought.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on June 17, 2020, 11:34:25 pm
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on June 17, 2020, 11:38:13 pm
Rather nice e-mail recieved.
1st August for distances up to 200km as DIY/Perm unless there's a spanner thrown at the works.

Awards to restart at same time, championships still suspended though.
And 6 months grace to restart RRTYs in.

Not got the mail yet, but saw a tweet. The 6 months Grace on the RRTY start makes me very happy.

Now I just need to get my fitness back...

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grimpeur du sudocrem on June 18, 2020, 07:02:58 am
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)

Great news  :thumbsup: - will you be taking the same approach to GdS RtY claims as AUK is for other RtYs?

I need another 4 months for GdS (and AAA) RtY so hopefully get it done by November and avoid covering 2 winters for the same RtY (although no doubt I'll carry on through winter).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 18, 2020, 07:12:39 am
This is rather my point.  Considering long-distance cycling in terms of "where/how do I sleep" is rather bizarre.
I suppose it is because the current rules with regard to long distance cycling in England are that you can cycle as far as you like as long as you return to your home at night. Speculation on how this might change is natural. Outside of England there is the added requirement to start and finish the ride locally.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on June 18, 2020, 07:23:36 am
For anyone who hasn't seen it, here's the message from the Chair regrind re-stating DIYs and Perms up to 200km:

I am very pleased to be able to let you know that, following an AUK Board meeting earlier this week, we plan to recommence validating Permanent and DIY AUK rides of up to 200km from August 1st.

As I mentioned in my letter to you earlier this month, we were very keen that AUK should act on a " whole nation" basis, with any resumption of validation taking effect in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man at the same time.

Members of the Board have spent a lot of time and effort following the pronouncements of politicians, considering the guidelines issued subsequently, and examining the legislation that is supposed to underpin it all. Not all items of this information have proved to be compatible with each other. When multiplied by several administrations, this has caused us multiple problems in working out a way forward.

Fortunately, it seems reasonable to expect that we will see the different sets of regulations and guidance - at least as directly relevant to randonneur cycling - converging towards alignment in the next few weeks, which should mean that we will be in a position to restart validation for all of our members, including those overseas, at the same time. It may be that a particular region or part of the UK is still (or becomes) subject to local restrictions that would prevent either re-commencement on the 1st of August or the continuation of events at some later point. In that instance our intention would be to, in effect, "quarantine" that region, while still allowing events elsewhere. Permanents ridden on foreign soil (PROFs) should only take place where they are explicitly permitted in the areas in which they take place.

There may still be some differences in the rules covering the number of people who may gather or ride together and I would remind all members that they must comply fully with any requirements specific to the region in which they are riding.

I also strongly encourage riders to minimise travel to and from events.

Organisers will have total discretion over whether to offer any, or all, of their usual events. Those that are available will be open for entry on the audax.uk web site and/or by post from August 1st. DIY riders will be able to enter their events at the same time. Please bear with organisers if they take a little longer than usual to respond to enquiries or validate rides as, like many of us, they may have other more pressing demands on their time at the moment.

Completed events will qualify for distance points, altitude points, fixed wheel points etc., as usual, although all championships will remain suspended. Distances covered will be eligible for Brevet and Randonneur awards if appropriate, including annual and multi-year awards. For multi-year awards such as Brevet 5000 and Brevet 25,000 we will be looking at ways in which the time period may be extended to take into account the break in validations.

If you have been working towards a RRtY award, you will have a six month 'grace' period in which to restart the calendar and recommence your monthly rides. Once restarted, you will still need to complete your 12 rides in consecutive calendar months.

All of this is, of course, based on our current understanding of the various regulations and guidance in place to limit the spread of the COVID-19 virus and we may have to revise this should there be a significant change of circumstances, such as a second spike in infections leading to lockdown measures being reintroduced. However, I am optimistic that we will be able to re-start as planned and, over time, be able to start re-introducing longer DIYs and Perms as well as, eventually, calendar events.

On behalf of the Board I'd like to thank all members for their patience and understanding during these uncertain times and for the many messages of support we have received. Some of those messages included queries, which I hope to respond to as soon as I can.

I look forward to seeing at least some of you on the road again soon.

With best wishes,

Chris Crossland

Chair, Audax UK
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on June 18, 2020, 08:44:33 am
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)

Great news  :thumbsup: - will you be taking the same approach to GdS RtY claims as AUK is for other RtYs?


Yes  :) although the actual GdS award for 2020 will still need to be completed by 31.12.20

Mid Sussex Hilly / Hillier looking unlikely as I've had no entries although the hall is pencilled it should it go ahead
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on June 18, 2020, 03:55:35 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 18, 2020, 04:00:10 pm
.... and breeze guided rides for up to 100 participants from 4th July.

 Edit: though split into multiple groups of 6 riders.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on June 18, 2020, 04:29:09 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 18, 2020, 04:30:54 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: davocon on June 18, 2020, 04:32:28 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0

I believe it say that in the other regions (than England) will be decoded by the devolved bodies. AUK is trying to take a national approach so my reading is that they are setting a date by which they hope guidance across the regions will be aligned.

Also BC have said that these things are suspended UNTIL those dates and will be reviewed in advance of those dates. It does not say that these events WILL be recommencing ion those dates.

That’s my reading anyway.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 18, 2020, 04:34:25 pm
BC are saying “Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing. “ i.e. today, 18th June.
 


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: davocon on June 18, 2020, 04:37:29 pm
BC are saying “Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing. “ i.e. today, 18th June.
 


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Yes, sorry I was meaning the references that were made to large breeze rides and sportives..
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 18, 2020, 04:48:11 pm
BC are saying “Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing. “ i.e. today, 18th June.
 


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Yes, sorry I was meaning the references that were made to large breeze rides and sportives..
They seem to be saying in the detail that from today, stage 3, multiple groups of 6 riders are allowed. The breeze rides are starting under stage 3 (which starts today) but because stage 3 has been brought forward nobody is ready (all the bookings are from 4th July). So in summary they have brought stage 3 forward from 4th July to today.

Sportives would be stage 4 which is still unchanged as 1st aug.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 18, 2020, 05:47:15 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 18, 2020, 05:50:54 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
I am avoiding meat processing plants on all my rides.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/us-coronavirus-meat-packing-plants-food


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on June 18, 2020, 06:39:29 pm
Good move by the board in my opinion and in line with what is currently allowed by government ( in England) .
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 18, 2020, 06:55:55 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
I am avoiding meat processing plants on all my rides.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/us-coronavirus-meat-packing-plants-food


yes, although the Wrescam is claiming it's due to an increase in community cases

"Whilst we are seeing a number of cases on site, Public Health Wales support our view that there is no clear evidence to suggest that there is a spread of the virus within the site, we are seeing a reflection on site of the increases in cases within the locality," it said.

Angelsey seems to be isolated.

Still it's 100 new cases detected so far.
And Wales R rate is stubbornly high despite them having the strictest lockdown of the UK nations.

Will find out what they decide to do next tomorrow.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grimpeur du sudocrem on June 18, 2020, 09:09:31 pm
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)

Great news  :thumbsup: - will you be taking the same approach to GdS RtY claims as AUK is for other RtYs?


Yes  :) although the actual GdS award for 2020 will still need to be completed by 31.12.20

Mid Sussex Hilly / Hillier looking unlikely as I've had no entries although the hall is pencilled it should it go ahead

That's fine, I've got 3 GdS for 2020 and need 4 more for GdSRtY (and AAARtY) which I intend to resume in August, so should tie in nicely.

If you do run MSH I'll be there - I guess everyone gave up entering things ages ago (I did) and obviously no-one knows yet when calendar events can restart, but once they do I would imagine pent-up demand will be high!

If not - drop me a line and I'll ride it with you as a DIY with some cafes and a pub  :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 18, 2020, 11:37:18 pm
British Cycling (18 June) - a positive, encouraging, timely yet controlled approach (and England focused).
Sanctions (ie immediately lifts the suspension on club and group activity, so authorises under BC auspices) club and group rides - limitation on group size and SD to be observed.
I wonder what additional risks Audax UK consider that individuals (and small groups) create or hazard when riding Permanents, including the DIY type? Presumably there is the judgement of additional risk to determine a delay till 1 Aug for such rides. Or is British Cycling being reckless allowing the types of activity listed? I suppose that Audax UK's reticence to restart validation of Perms/DIY till 1 Aug is driven by an overiding wish to be United, based on the (very reasonable) expectation that the home nations will align to sufficient extent (by 1 Aug), or that the long distance aspect of our rides risk 'spreading' the virus from one part of the country to another, or that validation of rides by Audax UK is really not important so what's the problem with waiting 4 weeks longer (than early July), or a combination of those factors
But we just don't know what the rationale is - I think it would be good to understand.

"British Cycling has today announced the next step in its plan to resume all sanctioned cycling activities in England, with coaching and group activity beginning to return from today (18 June). The national governing body has also announced that planning is underway to resume certain competitive events – such as time trials and downhill mountain biking – at the next stage of the process.

"The current suspension of sanctioned club and coaching activity was due to lift on 4 July, however with the support of new guidance published today on safe delivery, certain activities are now permitted to return with immediate effect.

"Details in the ‘British Cycling: The Way Forward’ update include that:

    Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing.
    The suspension of recreation programmes – such as HSBC UK Breeze and Guided Rides – will remain in place until 4 July, to enable Breeze Champions and Ride Leaders to access new training materials on safely leading group rides at the end of this month.
    While it is still not yet possible to reintroduce racing, the organisation, with its seven Discipline Commissions, is currently working on plans to reintroduce certain racing formats at the next stage of the process.
    Today’s (18 June) announcement moves us to Stage 3 of a six-stage plan, with Stage 6 being a return of all sanctioned activity."
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/The_Way_Forward_18-06-20_FINAL.pdf
The Way Forward - Planning a safe return to sanctioned cycling activity and facility use
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 18, 2020, 11:48:32 pm
Hm actually that's interesting because someone I know said they were restarting their training sessions as we went to "phase 1" here since it was compatible with him offering 1 socially distanced session a day.

I Guess his capacity doubles in 12 minutes!

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 19, 2020, 05:09:12 am
Hm actually that's interesting because someone I know said they were restarting their training sessions as we went to "phase 1" here since it was compatible with him offering 1 socially distanced session a day.

I Guess his capacity doubles in 12 minutes!

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1:1 coaching was already allowed by BC


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 19, 2020, 07:49:51 am
Hm actually that's interesting because someone I know said they were restarting their training sessions as we went to "phase 1" here since it was compatible with him offering 1 socially distanced session a day.

I Guess his capacity doubles in 12 minutes!

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1:1 coaching was already allowed by BC


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Ah!

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on June 19, 2020, 12:05:26 pm
Wales looks to be reducing travel and tourism restrictions in July.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53090890

Does this bring the different countries into closer alignment when riding brevets?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 19, 2020, 12:39:45 pm

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.


We will be able to afford the NHS.  We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.

This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
Please see link to BBC news
BBC News - UK debt now larger than size of whole economy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53104734

To compare debt to historic times like WW2 does not make sence to me. We are not out of this yet, we still have to pay for 3 months of ferloughing and we do not yet the impact on many businesses.

What will be able to afford next year?

BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on June 19, 2020, 12:55:44 pm
What will be able to afford next year?

I dunno but it's not going to be Audax UK's problem is it?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 19, 2020, 03:04:59 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
Looks like unrestricted travel in Wales from the 6th July, overnight stays from 13th July but only in self contained accommodation (ie self catering no shared bathroom)


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 19, 2020, 04:13:49 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
Looks like unrestricted travel in Wales from the 6th July, overnight stays from 13th July but only in self contained accommodation (ie self catering no shared bathroom)


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This point came up before about, its not the traveling but the stopping that is the problem. Quite when we will be able to have crowded controls with shared loos, communal sleeping and eating I have no idea. The reason self catering is opening before hotels is because the accomodation will be cleaned between visits by staff in protective clothes. There is still no indication that I can see of general hotels will open and nothing on any of the chains about booking.

Good news about the traveling, but apart from audax hotels there is nowhere to stay. This is the primary reason why I found it so hard to understand why Lejog was not cancelled. How can you offer a 5 day ride with no offer of accomodation that complies with the law? Never mind been able to feed people in one place.

BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on June 19, 2020, 04:45:54 pm
Primer inn have been taking bookings for awhile, currently plan to open in july.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 19, 2020, 05:00:02 pm
Perhaps we will have to have audaxes without the communal sleeping and eating for some time, for example like x rated events. From my inbox most hotels seem to expect to be opening in England from the 4th July. With regard to the welsh “self contained definition” this appears to mean no shared toilet or dining facilities. I would have thought budget hotels like travelodge would fall into that category. Other non audax events with overnight stops that I have done have had a bag drop to a campsite for the overnight accommodation/food. Other sports seem to be finding solutions to the challenges presented to them.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Flâneur on June 19, 2020, 05:08:14 pm

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.


We will be able to afford the NHS.  We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.

This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
Please see link to BBC news
BBC News - UK debt now larger than size of whole economy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53104734

To compare debt to historic times like WW2 does not make sence to me. We are not out of this yet, we still have to pay for 3 months of ferloughing and we do not yet the impact on many businesses.

What will be able to afford next year?

BB

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UK National Debt went over 100% of GDP today, so that chart is well out of date. And that is without factoring in the denominator effect of the large GDP drops to come
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 19, 2020, 05:15:14 pm
Maybe there needs to be a separate thread on solving the U.K. economic problems leaving this one to the more complex problem of how to cycle a long way legally.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on June 19, 2020, 05:40:25 pm
It's probably a good time to start a new thread about what rides people have planned come August.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on June 19, 2020, 06:56:46 pm
Perhaps we will have to have audaxes without the communal sleeping and eating for some time, for example like x rated events. From my inbox most hotels seem to expect to be opening in England from the 4th July. With regard to the welsh “self contained definition” this appears to mean no shared toilet or dining facilities. I would have thought budget hotels like travelodge would fall into that category. Other non audax events with overnight stops that I have done have had a bag drop to a campsite for the overnight accommodation/food. Other sports seem to be finding solutions to the challenges presented to them.
The challenges around accommodation and travel seem to be very easily solved by any UK citizen (even cyclists), but AUK seem to take the view that their naughty children  - oh I'm sorry, I mean "members"- might still find a way to misbehave, and are acting in great fear of That Sort Of Thing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on June 19, 2020, 08:02:02 pm
This is what Randonneurs NL sent me today (apologies for the Google Translate but it mostly makes sense)

As of July 1, a number of rules surrounding the corona will be relaxed. We do not yet know the exact details, but we believe that we can organize licenses again from 1 July 2020. This will have to be done under a number of strict conditions.
Health and safety will remain our priority even after this relaxation and driving a BRM will require more discipline than before. To facilitate this, we have the following conditions:

The number of participants of a BRM will be limited in consultation with the organizer, but will now be a maximum of 100.
Participation in a BRM is only possible by pre-registration via our website, up to 48 hours before the start of the license. Day registration is therefore not possible.

The first 7 days of opening are only for members of Randonneurs Netherlands, after these 7 days everyone can register.
Registration is done via the event / certification on our website.

Do not use Internet Explorer or Microsoft Edge for registration, preferably use Google Chrome or Opera
Payment must be made in advance and online. Without correct payment, there is no pre-registration.

The start is spread over a maximum of two hours.

Permanent checks (in catering, etc) are temporarily abolished and replaced by free checks.

The starting formalities are handled outdoors as much as possible to avoid too many people being together in a confined space. The control cards are prepared for the participant.

In addition to the normal acceptance of the BRM rules, each participant will receive a form to sign with a health declaration and rules of conduct as described here when registering.

Control cards are checked at an appropriate distance by the organization after application and validated for homologation.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 19, 2020, 08:17:13 pm
On the organized overnighting front, SYHA seem to think my hiking club can make use of the Rent-a-Hostels we have booked despite having booked 16 beds in 2 8 bed rooms and almost everyone being from different houses, so they possibly have a plan that fits the social distancing bill.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 19, 2020, 09:07:49 pm
On the organized overnighting front, SYHA seem to think my hiking club can make use of the Rent-a-Hostels we have booked despite having booked 16 beds in 2 8 bed rooms and almost everyone being from different houses, so they possibly have a plan that fits the social distancing bill.
Sounds like they are assuming you are all one bubble. I would not tell them you are all from different houses.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 19, 2020, 09:33:30 pm
On the organized overnighting front, SYHA seem to think my hiking club can make use of the Rent-a-Hostels we have booked despite having booked 16 beds in 2 8 bed rooms and almost everyone being from different houses, so they possibly have a plan that fits the social distancing bill.
Sounds like they are assuming you are all one bubble. I would not tell them you are all from different houses.

Possibly, or they (as is possibly the case) have a better idea of what will be allowed in "Phase 3" in terms of different bubbles meeting up.
Current estimate is 1900 people in Scotland likely to have it, which is 15% of the estimate 3 weeks ago, repeat that over the next 3 weeks and it's below 500 which would give much bigger scope on reopening.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on June 19, 2020, 11:16:51 pm
This is what Randonneurs NL sent me today (apologies for the Google Translate but it mostly makes sense)

Quite good that -  one of the best 'official pronouncements' I've seen.

Good news about the traveling, but apart from audax hotels there is nowhere to stay. This is the primary reason why I found it so hard to understand why Lejog was not cancelled. How can you offer a 5 day ride with no offer of accomodation that complies with the law? Never mind been able to feed people in one place.

It's been cancelled for a while.
LeJog (the July event) hs not been enterable since mid-March and will remain not enterable.  Yes it could still run for entrants from before that date but AUK have clearly stated they won't validate those July rides (though I suppose there is still time for that to change).
So I suppose it's right to say LeJog isn't cancelled because, well, things could change.  But in reality it has been cancelled for the last 3 months.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on June 19, 2020, 11:28:01 pm
This is what Randonneurs NL sent me today (apologies for the Google Translate but it mostly makes sense)

Quite good that -  one of the best 'official pronouncements' I've seen.

Good news about the traveling, but apart from audax hotels there is nowhere to stay. This is the primary reason why I found it so hard to understand why Lejog was not cancelled. How can you offer a 5 day ride with no offer of accomodation that complies with the law? Never mind been able to feed people in one place.

It's been cancelled for a while.
LeJog (the July event) hs not been enterable since mid-March and will remain not enterable.  Yes it could still run for entrants from before that date but AUK have clearly stated they won't validate those July rides (though I suppose there is still time for that to change).
So I suppose it's right to say LeJog isn't cancelled because, well, things could change.  But in reality it has been cancelled for the last 3 months.
No it hasn't. Cancelled eoukx mean there had been communication from the organiser to the entrants stating it was off, rather t han leaving everyone in limbo, still committed to a ride that probably won't happen. Unable to cancel booking related to the event and having to continue to commit annual leave go ty hat week, because even though it probably won't happen, it still might happen.

As far as I am concerned that only changed this week when thd board announced they would not validate anything before 1st August, and even then it would only be 200km perms.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: fboab on June 20, 2020, 06:44:59 pm
I guess for all you blokes the world is your urinal, but for others of us audaxing without toilets is going to be unpleasant/awkward.

I was out today for 6 hours. Much longer and I'd want a flushing facility and somewhere to wash my hands- and not just soap sheets and a rinse from my water bottle.

Is there any guidance on when we can expect to see public toilets opening? Or do I need to plan routes with dense woodland, thick hedges, or reliably erected dry stone walls?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Tomsk on June 20, 2020, 07:26:25 pm
The public loos in Dunmow have been open for about a month now - I reckon the Town Council thought they didn't need the extra watering all over the extensive and lovely Downs and Commons, [which has been very busy with picnics and meet-ups]. Especially as the Angel and Harp conveniently nearby now has an outdoor bar.

On my travels I've not come across any other open facilities. Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on June 20, 2020, 07:52:28 pm


Is there any guidance on when we can expect to see public toilets opening?
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/shop/official-and-only-genuine-radar-key
this any good for you?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: fboab on June 20, 2020, 08:02:54 pm
"Important - We only sell the Genuine Radar NKS Key to people who require use of the toilet facilities due to their disability or health condition."

I wasn't aware being female was a disability.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on June 20, 2020, 08:20:53 pm
I wasn't aware being female was a disability.

It is when they close all the loos.  Social model, innit.

But yes, while I have a legitimate Radar key and occasionally put it to good use accessing toilets at antisocial hours (and opening Silly Sustrans Gates™) on bike rides, this isn't a scaleable solution to lack of toilet provision.

Also, this:

Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.

Currently I've been managing with hedge inspections on longer rides.  But that only works in areas with suitable hedges, and - again - isn't a scaleable solution.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on June 20, 2020, 08:42:16 pm
Public toilets closed due to Covid? In Bristol they were all closed a couple of years ago due to austerity. Not that you're likely to be audaxing through a city centre, but just for context.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 20, 2020, 09:21:32 pm
Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.

Bogs seem to be one the largest areas of concern for transmission; although there are plenty of other reasons for avoiding public lavvies.


Guidance on Hospitality is published
https://www.ukhospitality.org.uk/page/ScotlandGuidance

So it looks like the approach for Scotland at least is that sharing a room is fine... you're just going to be getting a phone call if anyone you share the room with is found to have it.

Quote
If a guest-presents themselves with symptoms of COVID-19 in either a private room or shared dormitory or is asymptomatic but declares the need to self-isolate, they should be advised to self-isolate according to current government guidance.
This will apply to all guests that were present in the room.

There's also stuff about not opening self-catering kitchens and controlling who uses what bogs.
All a bit impractical when your 2 club trips planned are to Tongue and Ratagan and therefore miles away from anywhere you can eat.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on June 20, 2020, 11:38:10 pm
Toilets??  Is this some parallel universe I know nothing about?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on June 21, 2020, 08:26:44 am
Our District council has opened its toilets.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on June 21, 2020, 09:33:58 am
Temporary toilets installed on Blackheath Common - handy if you're on your way back from West Kent to central-ish or east London
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 21, 2020, 09:51:39 am
Quote
Raymond Martin, managing director of the British Toilet Association (BTA), said there would need to be a "complete rethink" of public toilets for the post-Covid age.
It could ultimately spell the end of the urinal, he says, as operators switch to individual cubicles with wash basins and baby changing facilities inside them. Work is underway on a “dig your own pit loo” guide.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on June 21, 2020, 10:15:21 am
Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.

Bogs seem to be one the largest areas of concern for transmission; although there are plenty of other reasons for avoiding public lavvies.


Is this legitimate though? surely everyone wasbes their hands before leaving and doesn't touch their face while in there.

People tend not to be in close proximity in the toilets and the response in denying access to hand washing facilities which is much better than using alcohol gel anyway.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 21, 2020, 10:21:29 am
Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.

Bogs seem to be one the largest areas of concern for transmission; although there are plenty of other reasons for avoiding public lavvies.


Is this legitimate though? surely everyone wasbes their hands before leaving and doesn't touch their face while in there.

People tend not to be in close proximity in the toilets and the response in denying access to hand washing facilities which is much better than using alcohol gel anyway.
... and there are often compelling reasons to hold your breath


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on June 21, 2020, 11:42:59 am
Quote
It could ultimately spell the end of the urinal, he says, as operators switch to individual cubicles with wash basins and baby changing facilities inside them. Work is underway on a “dig your own pit loo” guide.

I would have thought a urinal (Brit-style, ie all ranged along one wall - as opposed to classic French-style, facing each other in a circle) was one of the most covid-safe of institutions.  No touching of anything, to speak of.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: 3peaker on June 21, 2020, 12:00:29 pm


Is there any guidance on when we can expect to see public toilets opening?
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/shop/official-and-only-genuine-radar-key
this any good for you?
Quote from Link:
Important - We only sell the Genuine Radar NKS Key to people who require use of the toilet facilities due to their disability or health condition. By purchasing a key VAT free you are declaring yourself eligible to claim VAT relief and that the key is for your domestic and personal use only.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 21, 2020, 01:47:05 pm
Is this legitimate though? surely everyone wasbes their hands before leaving and doesn't touch their face while in there.

The 2 concerns seem to be virus being expelled into the bowl from the user and then made airborne by flushing (whne did you last see a public lavy with a lid?)
And people washing hands after touching all the surfaces in a public lavvy? you're taking the piss right you're lucky if 1/3 of users wash their hands properly in them, or are even able to wash their hands properly in them.

I would have thought a urinal (Brit-style, ie all ranged along one wall - as opposed to classic French-style, facing each other in a circle) was one of the most covid-safe of institutions.  No touching of anything, to speak of.

And of course the "rules" of using them enforce social distancing anyway.
Until someone breaks the rules and you're bursting of course.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 23, 2020, 01:30:49 pm
"When circumstances change, I change my decision."
I hope that the Audax UK board will revise forwards (to 18 July) the resumption date for encouraging and validating rides, given the revision to the guidelines in England announced just now (Tuesday 23 June). We can surely rely on the prudence and self-discipline of riders to minimise the risk to themselves and others. Any risk to the reputation of Audax UK and to cycling in general is surely illusory.
The various home nations will be most likely to make similar judgements and take similar decisions in the next fortnight so the argument that Audax UK has to wait, wait, wait for all home nations to align before resuming is surely weakened. Of course local laws and guidelines varied with time/date would remain to be adhered to.
Individuals will have different approaches to the minimal risk that outdoor activity - specifically long distance cycling - incurs (to themselves and others). And they will choose to ride: at all, short distances, long (day) distances, alone, in pairs, in groups of 'x' - or not: individual decision.
Given Audax UK's objective of encouraging long distance riding, it does not need to apply additional, cautious restrictions on such activity.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 23, 2020, 02:16:31 pm
We all have to adapt to the new normal. I am doing long solo day rides (along with a bit of tennis and swimming). When it is legal to do so (4th July in England) I will occasionally stay overnight. In line with government guidance I minimise social interaction - despite feeling guilty about the economic impact I am avoiding shops. I may however in due course even go as far as having a beer in a pub garden.  It is all about balance so I am mitigating these risks by not carrying a brevet card. After a LEJOG I will change over to running ready for the London marathon in October with 40,000 others - apparently this is likely to go ahead as outdoor infections are vanishingly rare.  After that I will take a break until the first auk calendar ride is likely scheduled.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 23, 2020, 03:11:05 pm
Good to see you're taking a responsible attitude, Dave, and mitigating the additional risks you're incurring/creating by making sure there's nothing stiff in your pocket which might exacerbate things and avoiding the reputational damage that AUK might suffer if people discover that it has been encouraging long distance cycling when the rest of the country is getting back some way towards normal.
Is your 7x200k LEJOG still on in late July? I take it hotels have been content to take your bookings?
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 23, 2020, 07:45:55 pm
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.

Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 23, 2020, 08:40:25 pm
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.

Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.


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If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Tomsk on June 23, 2020, 08:48:14 pm
"When circumstances change, I change my decision."
I hope that the Audax UK board will revise forwards (to 18 July) the resumption date for encouraging and validating rides, given the revision to the guidelines in England announced just now (Tuesday 23 June). We can surely rely on the prudence and self-discipline of riders to minimise the risk to themselves and others. Any risk to the reputation of Audax UK and to cycling in general is surely illusory.
The various home nations will be most likely to make similar judgements and take similar decisions in the next fortnight so the argument that Audax UK has to wait, wait, wait for all home nations to align before resuming is surely weakened. Of course local laws and guidelines varied with time/date would remain to be adhered to.
Individuals will have different approaches to the minimal risk that outdoor activity - specifically long distance cycling - incurs (to themselves and others). And they will choose to ride: at all, short distances, long (day) distances, alone, in pairs, in groups of 'x' - or not: individual decision.
Given Audax UK's objective of encouraging long distance riding, it does not need to apply additional, cautious restrictions on such activity.

I understand the AUK Board's decision to take a whole UK approach, given that Scotland and Wales are taking their time in lockdown easing [with justification I'm sure], but a tad frustrating for us in England. However, I can wait until 1st August for perms to start and will take the opportunity of overnight stays for a little touring in July. If there are local Covid-19 outbreaks later in the year then they'll maybe have to suspend Audax events on a case-by-case basis?

Tentative plans for some multi-day DIY 200s going a Long Way, too ... My scuppered 2020 plans were for Andy C's LEJOG, my own ACME Grand [as a route check/helpers' ride] and possibly the East-West, Lowestoft-Ardnamurchan perm too. There's a whole world of choice there!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: 3peaker on June 23, 2020, 09:17:35 pm
My plans for a double E-E have been scuppered by the 1 Aug announcement. So, it will be a 4 Corners tour, entering Scotland when the border opens for tourists, with a couple DIY 200s in the South just to remind me what event pressure is all about.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on June 23, 2020, 11:28:27 pm
If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.

When I rode LeJoG in 4 days (96h) the hotel at JoG was most unwelcoming (with good reason I'm sure) so I rode straight back to Wick Polis Station where they made me a Full Scottish Breakfast  :thumbsup:
Those were the days.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 24, 2020, 05:35:49 am
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.

Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.


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If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.
I have booked 4 nights en route. My accommodation at the end is back in Wick. As I am going when I would have been doing Andy’s one it is too early for registering any of it.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: marcusjb on June 29, 2020, 07:23:40 am
RUSA resumption postponed. :(

https://rusa.org/node/558 (https://rusa.org/node/558)

Whilst the US is on a very different trajectory, AUK’s decision to not rush things may hopefully avoid this situation here and shorter DIYs and perms can resume as planned.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on June 29, 2020, 09:38:30 am
Thing is, Marcus, RUSA were planning to allow calendar events up to 200 to go ahead, if the organiser chose, from 1 July. Noone here has suggested that that would be a prudent way ahead in the circumstances prevailing in UK.
Audax UK have decided that solo/very small group permanents can be sanctioned. The additional risk of such rides, compared to unsanctioned individual or group (<7) rides is nil. And the risk during such outdoor exercise (of increased infection) already very small, is vanishingly small compared to risks incurred during the many other activities millions of entirely sensible cautious UK citizens are engaged in.
I believe that what the long distance cycling community want to see is a vision (Audax UK's vision) for how calendar events can be resumed (if organisers want to) and a tentative, prudent date that they hope that circumstances (in various spectra) will allow that resumption.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 29, 2020, 01:01:48 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095)

For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.

So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel  across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.

I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 29, 2020, 01:20:28 pm
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideas
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970

Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.

But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 29, 2020, 02:41:12 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095)

For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.

So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel  across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.

I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.

BB
I appreciate you keep saying something similar and I keep repeating my response, if the issue is the sign on or finishing in a village hall afterwards, which is currently illegal, then organise the event without this. If it is impossible to have online or outdoor sign in then cancel that event, not all events. This is the approach in NL. This is all irrelevant as auk have decided no calendar events for the time being.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 29, 2020, 06:36:32 pm
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideas
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970

Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.

But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
Kyle Bridge not too far away  :thumbsup:The difference is just the difference between the Shiel Bridge split?

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on June 29, 2020, 08:43:33 pm
https://www.facebook.com/cheddar/videos/230702384268416/


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 29, 2020, 10:54:53 pm
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideas
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970

Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.

But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
Kyle Bridge not too far away  :thumbsup:The difference is just the difference between the Shiel Bridge split?

BB

Considerably less climbing and considerably more motor vehicles on the A87 route.

Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on June 30, 2020, 06:07:30 am
Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.

I assume you mean Skye not SKAT? Do you have a source for the "tourists kept out" position?

Hostels look like they are booking only private rooms and no shared accommodation.

 :'(

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on June 30, 2020, 11:33:48 am
Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.

I assume you mean Skye not SKAT? Do you have a source for the "tourists kept out" position?

Hostels look like they are booking only private rooms and no shared accommodation.

 :'(

SKAT
Skye and Kyle Against Tolls.

1/3rd of businesses polled in the western isles say they won't be reopening this year becasue they don't want to be responsible for bringing death to the islands; seems could be similar in Skye and Lochaber.

Ratagan probably won't be going ahead for the the club anyway, without self-catering and car sharing it's just not possible.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: slugbait on June 30, 2020, 05:51:10 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095)

For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.

So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel  across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.

I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.

BB

In the Netherlands, audax will resume in July. We have altered the rules of conduct to make sure that we don't huddle together at start and finish (outside, collect card and go; plus no socializing at the finish). The controls are up to the rider. It could be a photo control or a receipt at a petrol station. We will be very flexible as long as the riders disperse as much as possible at controls. As an organizer, I'm fine with this. I don't think cycling in small groups or travel to the start currently is a risky activity.