Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: rdaviesb on July 02, 2009, 06:55:58 pm

Title: Vino back to Astana
Post by: rdaviesb on July 02, 2009, 06:55:58 pm
Someone please stop this travesty. If the Khazaks hold Bruyneel to ransom let's just hope he tells them to get stuffed.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: GruB on July 02, 2009, 07:26:42 pm
I don't like the sound of this news. 
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: SpaceBadger on July 02, 2009, 07:40:03 pm
Me neither.

I also hope Bruneel tells him to get stuffed, Lance buys the team, moves it to another country and changes the kit. Team Livestrong?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Tewdric on July 02, 2009, 08:11:53 pm
Me neither.

I also hope Bruneel tells him to get stuffed, Lance buys the team, moves it to another country and changes the kit. Team Livestrong?

Team Trek when the Astana contract ends.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Hot Flatus on July 02, 2009, 09:04:02 pm
Someone please stop this travesty. If the Khazaks hold Bruyneel to ransom let's just hope he tells them to get stuffed.

Why?

Why is he any worse than David millar?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: GruB on July 02, 2009, 09:10:13 pm
Because he comes from a former Eastern block country, has never, to the best of my knowledge shown any remorse or contrition for his act.  I appreciate it is widespread but when you get caught you have to jump through the right hoops, make the right noises
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Adrian on July 02, 2009, 09:32:05 pm
Because he comes from a former Eastern block country


Could you expand this bit please?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: rdaviesb on July 02, 2009, 09:35:30 pm
1. Vino was caught in 2007, when the anti doping campaigns had really been up and running for some time. He knew all about the testing that he would be subject to, and still chose to dope.
2. Vino was blood doping, a form of cheating which is designed to be considerably harder to detect than the additional of other substances to your body. He was trying to evade controls.
3. Millar admitted his offences before he was caught (but he could hardly do anything else).
4. Vino has never repented.
5. Millar is voiciferously anti doping. Vino has never been, and today, is not.

Bruyneel only took over Astana when a term was inserted into his contract that he would not have to take back Vino and Kashekin. Vino seems to think that he can walk back into the team, and the Khazak federation should be distancing themselves from this viewpoint at a right rate of knots. I hope they have the honour to do so.

On a personal note, Vino tarnishes my memories of the 2007 TdF. I watched the Prologue hanging off the fountain at the top of the Mall, and it was the best days cycling I have ever seen. The fact that I know that Vino was cheating the crowd disgusts me, and try as I might, that thought still hangs around my head and mars the fantastic memory of Cancellara steaming round that final bend to victory (he really was moving considerably faster than anyone else!). The cheer from the crowd when he hit the line was simply magnificent.

Rant off.

Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Hot Flatus on July 02, 2009, 10:12:33 pm

3. Millar admitted his offences before he was caught (but he could hardly do anything else).

Did he?  Didn't know that.  I thought he was arrested unexpectedly whilst having a coffee with David Brailsford.

Quote
5. Millar is voiciferously anti doping.

What else can he be?


Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: GruB on July 02, 2009, 11:06:26 pm
Because he comes from a former Eastern block country


Could you expand this bit please?

My geography is not great outside Australia unless it involves Wiltshire.  I put Kazak itwhateveritcan in the USSR boat of Eastern Block countries from the Cold War era.  I am probably wrong, but in my head it makes sense.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: TheLurker on July 03, 2009, 08:16:09 am
Oh bloody hell.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Adrian on July 03, 2009, 08:20:41 am
Sorry, I what don't understand is how his coming from a former Eastern Bloc country can make him worse than David Milllar. Have I misread this?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 03, 2009, 08:36:42 am
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.

You may not agree with it but I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Frenchie on July 03, 2009, 08:37:58 am
Someone please stop this travesty.

+1
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Hot Flatus on July 03, 2009, 08:42:50 am
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.



T-mobile/Festina/Cofidis/Liberty Seguros etc etc etc.... systematic doping, and not one of them an eastern bloc team
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 03, 2009, 09:52:28 am
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.



T-mobile/Festina/Cofidis/Liberty Seguros etc etc etc.... systematic doping, and not one of them an eastern bloc team

And your point would be ?

Marion Jones, Balco, Ben Johnson... they weren't from the eastern bloc either.  It's not mutually exclusive.

 "... and state-backed" - that's the difference, and that's also what made it systematic.

Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Seineseeker on July 03, 2009, 10:03:13 am
Vino would be perfect for Astana ;)
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Moloko on July 03, 2009, 10:09:12 am
I thought Vino was wine, not whine. ;D
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: vorsprung on July 03, 2009, 10:11:41 am
Armstrong is going to set up his own team anyway
Bruyneel might run Armstrongs team or could get a job elsewhere, I'm sure

I'm not so certain that Contador would want to stay with Astana.   Because

a) they have had funding problems
b) Vino would want to be the team leader
c) no Bruyneel
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Hot Flatus on July 03, 2009, 10:24:38 am
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.



T-mobile/Festina/Cofidis/Liberty Seguros etc etc etc.... systematic doping, and not one of them an eastern bloc team

And your point would be ?

Marion Jones, Balco, Ben Johnson... they weren't from the eastern bloc either.  It's not mutually exclusive.

 "... and state-backed" - that's the difference, and that's also what made it systematic.



The point being that where Vino comes from is irrelevant.  It may have been during the soviet era, but that ended two decades ago. 

I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Seineseeker on July 03, 2009, 10:43:48 am
I agree with M.Pumpé! Plus Vino is too old to be team leader now. Astana is the obvious choice for him to return to, I don't imagine he can ever ride in the Tour again though.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: gonzo on July 03, 2009, 11:10:37 am
5. Millar is voiciferously anti doping.
What else can he be?

There are a lot of riders who've returned after doping sanctions who aren't.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 03, 2009, 11:27:25 am
]

The point being that where Vino comes from is irrelevant.  It may have been during the soviet era, but that ended two decades ago. 

I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.

errr... not in Kazakhstan.

Nazarbayev, is the former Communist leader and still runs the place in Soviet style as President-for-life with unfair and less-than-free elections where he wins 90% of the vote.

And Vinokourov as a teenager was part of the Kazakh sports school training system which was then part of the Soviet Union. He is a direct product of that state-backed systematic doping regime.

Clearly most people associated with cycling in Kazakhstan would also have been products, or indeed proponents, of that system. Which probably helps to also explain why they got involved with Liberty Seguros after the doping scandals when nobody wanted to touch them, and why their two best  riders have both been caught doping.

Sorry if that's not obvious enough for you.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Hot Flatus on July 03, 2009, 11:41:42 am
Great.....

.....but in the context of cycling and all the other positive tests, completely and utterly irrelevant.

Some of the earliest proponants of blood doping were the riders of the USA national team.  State sponsored too, or maybe that doesn't fit into your prejudices?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Seineseeker on July 03, 2009, 12:09:24 pm
Come on, the fact that Vino is from Kazakhstan is irrelevant. Doping takes place in countries with all kinds of political systems. And apart from East Germany, the US is probably the greatest exponent of drug taking in sport. What's the difference between state backed doping and endemic doping in a "free" country?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: gonzo on July 03, 2009, 12:16:51 pm
Just a quick question, but how many Kazakh riders have there been?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 03, 2009, 12:41:04 pm
Great.....

.....but in the context of cycling and all the other positive tests, completely and utterly irrelevant.

Some of the earliest proponants of blood doping were the riders of the USA national team.  State sponsored too, or maybe that doesn't fit into your prejudices?

Do you have some evidence of US government involvement and sanctioning of doping ? Even a rumour ? National-level athletes doping is not the same as a national system of doping.

And that's the difference Seineseeker - in a state-backed system it is virtually impossible to avoid doping. It is part of the system. Endemic doping in a free country is an individual choice, and generally done despite authorities rather than with their support.

The point is that the background of any rider (or other athlete) is relevant, that's all. In Vino's case it is relevant that he is a product of the Soviet sport system as is Kazakh cycling.

If we were talking about someone who had ridden for Festina or one of the drug-ridden teams, that would be relevant too. I find Armstrong's association with Michele Ferrari very dubious, and I find it hard to give much credit to Riis as an anti-doping DS or David Millar, though at least they say the right things. If an athlete had been associated with Balco and Victor Fuentes that would be relevant.

I don't know why but there appears to be a mistaken assumption that saying the eastern bloc connection is relevant is somehow ignoring or excusing other connections. Nobody is saying that.



 

Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 03, 2009, 12:42:02 pm
Just a quick question, but how many Kazakh riders have there been?

I can think of four, of whom two have been busted.

Vino
Kasechkin
Asabayev
Iglinsky

Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Seineseeker on July 03, 2009, 12:49:04 pm
Except its virtually endemic in cycling, so you either dope or you don't become a pro. But I realise that's another argument. So I won't pursue that one, even if it gets some peoples hackles up.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: vorsprung on July 03, 2009, 12:55:44 pm
Except its virtually endemic in cycling, so you either dope or you don't become a pro. But I realise that's another argument. So I won't pursue that one, even if it gets some peoples hackles up.

It's interesting that Brad Wiggins ( who wouldn't dope, read his biog ) was placing well in mountain top finishes in the Giro this year
I wonder if less doping is happening
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Seineseeker on July 03, 2009, 01:00:41 pm
Well yes, and I should have said endemic up until very recently. Last years TdF was slow (apparently) and Evans was second, and he is widely thought to be clean (I'm not saying Sastre isn't clean either)!
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Hot Flatus on July 03, 2009, 01:41:24 pm
Except its virtually endemic in cycling,.

Precisely.  The whole sport is submerged in doping and has been since its inception.  As far as we know there have been no state sponsored doping schemes in western countries, but that doesn't seem to have resulted in less liklihood of western athletes doping.... which is really the crux of the argument.

Trying to claim that an eastern european is more likely to cheat is ridiculous and prejudiced, especially considering that professional cycling is not a nation based sport.  That is why the Kazahk funded team of Astana is run by a Belgian.

(FWIW I think the fact that that particular belgian runs the team has far more bearing on the honesty or otherwise of the team)
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: gonzo on July 03, 2009, 01:47:43 pm
Just a quick question, but how many Kazakh riders have there been?

I can think of four, of whom two have been busted.

Vino
Kasechkin
Asabayev
Iglinsky



Thanks for the list. I could only think of the first two hence my curiosity!
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 03, 2009, 01:49:44 pm

Do you have some evidence of US government involvement and sanctioning of doping ? Even a rumour ? National-level athletes doping is not the same as a national system of doping.


The 1984 Olympic cyclist blood doping came via Eddy B, the national coach, and their associated support team.

Do you need to see the USA-ian President actually putting the needles in?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Tewdric on July 03, 2009, 01:50:52 pm
Kazakh Coup To Oust Armstrong And Bruyneel From Team Astana? | Cyclingnews.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kazakh-coup-to-oust-armstrong-and-bruyneel-from-team-astana)

I'm sure a deal has been cut behind the scenes.  Armstrong wants an American-ish team, doesn't want to be associated with Kazakhstan, but wants to be with Bruyneel.  Cue a new team any time now, and Astana going back to how things were with Vino leading.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 03, 2009, 01:52:03 pm
Except its virtually endemic in cycling,.


Trying to claim that an eastern european is more likely to cheat is ridiculous and prejudiced,

Well if anybody does that, you be sure to let us know. Along with the evidence of US government doping.

A bit more tinfoil in the hat might help.

Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: gonzo on July 03, 2009, 01:54:15 pm
Well yes, and I should have said endemic up until very recently. Last years TdF was slow (apparently) and Evans was second, and he is widely thought to be clean (I'm not saying Sastre isn't clean either)!

Interestingly, there were 4 saxo-bank/CSC guys from last years our squad with questionable blood values ( I won't name names) it was only a rumour, but publicised rumours from the peloton have a habit of being true.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Hot Flatus on July 03, 2009, 01:59:53 pm
A bit more tinfoil in the hat might help.

Unlike that comment.  You don't seem to be able to discuss issues without launching into personal attacks.  Perhaps you should stay away from internet fora.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Thor on July 03, 2009, 02:03:24 pm
Kazakh Coup To Oust Armstrong And Bruyneel From Team Astana? | Cyclingnews.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kazakh-coup-to-oust-armstrong-and-bruyneel-from-team-astana)

I'm sure a deal has been cut behind the scenes.  Armstrong wants an American-ish team, doesn't want to be associated with Kazakhstan, but wants to be with Bruyneel.  Cue a new team any time now, and Astana going back to how things were with Vino leading.

I'm surprised they didn't get this sorted out before the Tour - it would have solved the Contador vs Armstrong problem.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 03, 2009, 02:04:38 pm
A bit more tinfoil in the hat might help.

Unlike that comment.  You don't seem to be able to discuss issues without launching into personal attacks.  Perhaps you should stay away from internet fora.

Whatever you say... Coming from the person who introduced "my prejudices" to this thread I accept that you are an expert on personal attacks.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Hot Flatus on July 03, 2009, 02:07:03 pm
That's a bit lame for you. Normally you're on the insults by now  ;)
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: inc on July 03, 2009, 02:38:28 pm

Do you have some evidence of US government involvement and sanctioning of doping ? Even a rumour ? National-level athletes doping is not the same as a national system of doping.


The 1984 Olympic cyclist blood doping came via Eddy B, the national coach, and their associated support team.

Do you need to see the USA-ian President actually putting the needles in?

The major difference here is that it was perfectly legal then, so the USA national team were not doing anything illegal. I don't recall any illegal substances being used it was simply  blood transfusion of their own blood from altitude training. Illegal now of course.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 03, 2009, 02:56:05 pm
The difference is also that eastern bloc (Soviet, East German, Bulgarian etc) authorities officially approved and provided funding for scientific research, manufacture and supply related to the enhancement of performance by illegal doping as well as the avoidance of detection.

It was applied in a systematic manner to athletes in state-funded sports programmes and institutions.

This has been documented and reported by records and the testimony of people involved.

Nothing like that or on that scale has gone on in the US or other western nations. Though I say again I don't hold teams or sports blameless or think they are ethically superior. Clearly cycling authorities turned a blind eye to doping for years, as did managers and directors. However we were discussing Vinokourov.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Seineseeker on July 03, 2009, 04:41:06 pm
Let's forget the whole eastern european thing, even if it was relevant, who cares?

The point of the thread after all.....

So Bruyneel leaves with Armstrong, and he gets back his American team with Lance there for say 1 more year to get it off the ground, and everyone has forgotten Contador's questionable (in terms of doping) TdF win that led to the breakup of Discovery, as they couldn't find new sponsors. In the meantime Astana gets back it's Kazakh team and their captain in Vino, and maybe get to keep Contador too. It's kind of a win all round situation for the main players isn't it?

Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: gonzo on July 03, 2009, 05:45:05 pm
Is Armstrong definitely racing next year?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: GruB on July 03, 2009, 07:48:25 pm
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.

You may not agree with it but I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.

Yep, what he said  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Adrian on July 03, 2009, 08:38:25 pm
So why worse than Millar?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: GruB on July 03, 2009, 08:54:27 pm
I reckon I see Vino worse than Millar for two reasons:

1. I was brought up by a dominant mother that had an opinion on everything and at my tender ages, she seemed honest and knowledgeable.  The USSR and East Germany and Bulgaria, Romania etc, were all cheats.  Mainly for the above reason as explained by Chris.  This 'view' was indoctrinated into me.

2. I was a real fan of Vino.  I liked his riding style, his grit and determination.  He was my favourite rider.  The he went and got caught cheating.  I believe deep down I despise him for popping my little naive balloon about doping.  Of course this is silly, but my psyche is to blame  ;D

So Pumpe is probably right, my views are coloured, prejudiced, biased.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Adrian on July 03, 2009, 09:12:36 pm
By that reckoning Millar is the more badly behaved of the two. Vino was indoctrinated from an early age. Millar doped of his ow volition as an insurance for an event where he felt he was going to do well anyway
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: bobb on July 03, 2009, 09:15:21 pm
Millar is possibly just as bad as Vino. I do like Millar though, as he does seem genuinely repentant. He could of course just be making it all up to get people to like him. However, he's a professional cyclist, not a professional actor.

There's been lots of stuff written about Millar and bearing in mind his nationality, we (or most of us) having English as our first language are more likely to read those things. I don't recall reading much said by Vino since he got busted (apart from his excuses), but he may have given his side of the story, but I've just never seen it.

Also, the English speaking (particularly British) cycling press were very hard on Millar and never had a good word to say about him after he got busted. Now they seem to love him and completely forgotten about it all.

I don't think Vino's nationality should have anything to do with it, but can understand why it may be raised.

I despise cheating of any sort - I can't stand it, but if the rules say he can ride again, then he can ride again.....
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: SpaceBadger on July 03, 2009, 09:49:12 pm
I despise cheating of any sort - I can't stand it, but if the rules say he can ride again, then he can ride again.....

Good point. I hate cheats too, whether it's footballers' appealing for a throw-in when they know they touched the ball last or those taking performance enhancing drugs. The rules penalise cheats and permit them to return after sanction, whether we like it or not, but we don't have to like them. How I feel about riders who have served a ban (Miller: ok, but admitedly a bit uncomfortably; Vino: don't like) depends on how they conduct themselves after the event.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: alexb on July 03, 2009, 10:25:44 pm
A team composed of Kazaks and Spanish...I'd love to see how they pitch that to the Tour organisers.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: SpaceBadger on July 03, 2009, 10:28:42 pm
Imagine how bad the jersey would be!  ;D
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 04, 2009, 01:07:53 am

The major difference here is that it was perfectly legal then, so the USA national team were not doing anything illegal. I don't recall any illegal substances being used it was simply  blood transfusion of their own blood from altitude training. Illegal now of course.


It involved blood transfusions from other people, not their own (not sufficient time available).  It was arguably illegal at the time and was specifically banned shortly afterwards, despite no test being available for many years.

I was using it as an example of USA athletes being coerced into dubious practices by their national team, despite their own misgivings about the morality and legality of the method.  The team's approach was 'any method that would help them win, unless specifically banned and tested for'.  This outlook obviously encourages Balco-type situations.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 04, 2009, 09:48:20 am
This must be the only thread in the history of the internet where Australians have been accused of showing irrational bias and favouritism towards an English athlete.

No doubt the apocalypse will follow shortly.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: bobb on July 04, 2009, 09:56:25 am
I don't recall any English athletes being mentioned in this thread  :P
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: ChrisO on July 04, 2009, 10:04:11 am
Ah of course, he's Scottish isn't he.

That's alright then. Dirty cheating Russkies.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 04, 2009, 05:05:51 pm
English, Scottish, the countries are so close together that from halfway round the world they look the same.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: finch on July 05, 2009, 08:48:41 am
Apparently the boy has a Scottish parent , was born in Malta and grew up in Hong Kong . As a proud Scot I won't be claiming him any time soon . We don't need Millar we have Chris Hoy et al . The English can keep him  ;)
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: bobb on July 05, 2009, 02:47:56 pm
Apparently the boy has a Scottish parent , was born in Malta and grew up in Hong Kong . As a proud Scot I won't be claiming him any time soon . We don't need Millar we have Chris Hoy et al . The English can keep him  ;)

Chris Hoy has said on a number of occasions that he first and foremost considers himself British. Sure, it could just be for the cameras, but seeing as Britannia didn't ever include what is now Scotland - we'll keep him! Cheers  :P
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: citoyen on July 06, 2009, 09:56:38 am
So why worse than Millar?

The way Millar tells it is that he never really wanted to dope, he was just caught up in the systemic doping that was still part of cycling at the time. He was largely left to his own devices by his team, but they still put immense pressure on him to win races. Eventually the pressure got to the point where he caved in.

And call me a credulous fool, but I believe him. I believe that he is truly repentant and I believe that he is strongly opposed to doping. He is now part of a team that has a strong anti-doping ethic and makes a point of providing proper pastoral care for its riders so they are far less likely to succumb to the temptation to cheat.

That is why he is different to Vinokourov.

But I don't think Vinokourov is by any means the worst offender - I'd give that honour to Tyler Hamilton, mainly for his arrogance and his apparent desire to see the sport of cycling dragged through the mud. Another of my credulous beliefs is that the majority of cyclists and people involved in pro cycling really do want to clean up the sport, and Hamilton's behaviour suggests that he doesn't want to allow that to happen. IIRC, he's American, isn't he? (Dwain Chambers has had a similarly damaging effect on British running, and he's not from the Eastern Bloc either.)

d.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: gonzo on July 06, 2009, 03:07:08 pm
I'd give that honour to Tyler Hamilton, mainly for his arrogance and his apparent desire to see the sport of cycling dragged through the mud. Another of my credulous beliefs is that the majority of cyclists and people involved in pro cycling really do want to clean up the sport, and Hamilton's behaviour suggests that he doesn't want to allow that to happen. IIRC, he's American, isn't he? (Dwain Chambers has had a similarly damaging effect on British running, and he's not from the Eastern Bloc either.)

I can't help but feel a little sorry for Tyler the second time - he was caught on anti-depressants. Cycling is known as a good way to alleviate depression and now he can't do that either.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 06, 2009, 08:08:39 pm

I can't help but feel a little sorry for Tyler the second time - he was caught on anti-depressants. Cycling is known as a good way to alleviate depression and now he can't do that either.

He can, he just can't get paid for it.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: rdaviesb on July 07, 2009, 10:10:49 pm
Quote
But I don't think Vinokourov is by any means the worst offender - I'd give that honour to Tyler Hamilton

+1
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: alexb on July 08, 2009, 12:51:28 pm
I know he has been expunged from memory, but as bad as Tyler was, how can you say he's worse than Floyd Landis?

Let's face it, Landis had lost the tour, cheated, made a spectacular and unbelievable comeback (much like Vino) and then proceeded to not only drage cycling and UCI through the mud but blew the lid on Greg LeMond's very private past and personal life.

If that is not pond scum, then I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: citoyen on July 08, 2009, 01:06:57 pm
I know he has been expunged from memory, but as bad as Tyler was, how can you say he's worse than Floyd Landis?

Yeah, fair point. Landis is probably as bad as Hamilton, maybe worse.

d.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: Seineseeker on July 08, 2009, 01:24:55 pm
Hamilton and Landis both had these "he's innocent" campaigns too. And there was a lot of chat on forums defending the pair of them, but none really for Vino.

So what is Landis up to these days?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: gonzo on July 08, 2009, 05:57:17 pm
Hamilton and Landis both had these "he's innocent" campaigns too. And there was a lot of chat on forums defending the pair of them, but none really for Vino.

So what is Landis up to these days?

Racing for a team called, I think; 'Ouch!'

The difference between Tyler and Floyd is that the people who understood the science tended to agree with Floyd, but not Tyler.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: alexb on July 08, 2009, 06:33:22 pm
Hamilton and Landis both had these "he's innocent" campaigns too. And there was a lot of chat on forums defending the pair of them, but none really for Vino.

So what is Landis up to these days?

Racing for a team called, I think; 'Ouch!'

The difference between Tyler and Floyd is that the people who understood the science tended to agree with Floyd, but not Tyler.

I'd agree that Tyler's excuses were pathetically unbelievable, but Floyd's defences mostly suggested a series of errors had conspired to produce a posititve result. We have the same instrumentation here and a keen cyclist who was working in the labs (I've got to be careful what i say because she sometimes haunts these fora), but my recollection was that she thought the data that convicted him were reasonably sound.

So I'd say that Floyd's lawyers put up the usual smokescreen to try and suggest that some terrible conspiracy was at work, but in all probability I'd suggest otherwise.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: citoyen on July 08, 2009, 06:46:25 pm
people who understood the science tended to agree with Floyd

Really? I thought the people who backed him mostly consisted of: a) his highly paid lawyers and b) his good buddy Lance Armstrong.

Not the scientists.

I can understand him being persistent in his claims if he really does believe he's innocent, but he's certainly not done much to help the image of the sport.

At least Vino has had the grace to "retire" and disappear into obscurity. Oh, hang on...

d.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: citoyen on July 08, 2009, 06:51:49 pm
I'd agree that Tyler's excuses were pathetically unbelievable

And of course there's the small matter of the positive test for steroids earlier this year, which just makes his protests of innocence the first time around seem even less believable.

It would be really unfair to class Millar as "just as bad" as Hamilton.

d.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: gonzo on July 08, 2009, 06:54:14 pm
I should make my position clear before we go any further - I believe that Floyd was convicted of the wrong thing; I think that he was on something, but that the labs screwed up.

Interesting post on the previous topic here: The end of the road for Landis. (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4736.msg82981#msg82981)
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: citoyen on July 08, 2009, 07:03:17 pm
Interesting post on the previous topic here: The end of the road for Landis. (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4736.msg82981#msg82981)

That is very interesting. My gut feeling (for what it's worth) is that the detection of synthetic steroids is pretty damning evidence of some kind of foul play, regardless of the other anomalies in the test results - the dopers are always one step ahead of the testers, so who knows what it was that the tests detected? But I believe they did detect something that shouldn't have been there.

d.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: gonzo on July 09, 2009, 04:11:43 pm
Interesting post on the previous topic here: The end of the road for Landis. (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4736.msg82981#msg82981)

That is very interesting. My gut feeling (for what it's worth) is that the detection of synthetic steroids is pretty damning evidence of some kind of foul play, regardless of the other anomalies in the test results - the dopers are always one step ahead of the testers, so who knows what it was that the tests detected? But I believe they did detect something that shouldn't have been there.

I should point out that my mental image is of those labs being full of a load of monkeys in white coats being slipped bananas by l'equipe to allow them access!
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: IanDG on July 11, 2009, 11:10:54 pm
Because he comes from a former Eastern block country


Could you expand this bit please?

My geography is not great outside Australia unless it involves Wiltshire.  I put Kazak itwhateveritcan in the USSR boat of Eastern Block countries from the Cold War era.  I am probably wrong, but in my head it makes sense.

I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.

You may not agree with it but I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.

Isn't drug taking part of the American sport culture too (i.e. American football)?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: simonp on July 12, 2009, 12:34:17 am
And baseball.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: αdαmsκι on August 03, 2009, 02:23:12 pm
Whatever people think about Vino, he's served his required two year ban* and his first race back will be tomorrow. (http://www.velonews.com/article/96263/vinokourov-will-ride-this-week)

* I'm not saying that I agree with this, but those are the rules.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: rdaviesb on August 24, 2009, 11:38:39 pm
Whatever people think about Vino, he's served his required two year ban* and his first race back will be tomorrow. (http://www.velonews.com/article/96263/vinokourov-will-ride-this-week)

* I'm not saying that I agree with this, but those are the rules.

You are right, but I still do not like this. He's not even got the honour to admit what he did (and there is not a shred of doubt....)

The bad boy is back.  (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8219372.stm)


Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: citoyen on August 25, 2009, 09:45:05 am
He's not even got the honour to admit what he did (and there is not a shred of doubt....)

This is, of course, the biggest difference between him and Millar, and why the two should be treated differently.

d.
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on August 25, 2009, 01:03:41 pm
So if Vino had cried crocodile tears, that would be better?
Title: Re: Vino back to Astana
Post by: citoyen on August 25, 2009, 06:43:37 pm
So if Vino had cried crocodile tears, that would be better?

Of course not. But genuine contrition and reform are a different matter.

I suppose it comes down to notions of justice and the purpose of punishment. You've stated your position before and I don't expect to be able to change your mind, but I stand firm in my belief that Millar is a reformed character and for me that's good enough reason to welcome him back into the sport.

The rules say Vino has served his punishment and is therefore entitled to compete again, but I don't believe he is a reformed character, so I don't feel so welcoming towards him.

d.