Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => GPS => Topic started by: GrahamG on November 18, 2010, 12:01:09 pm

Title: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: GrahamG on November 18, 2010, 12:01:09 pm
Right, a lengthy pondering post for feedback from the parish.... what would you do?

I was set on an Oregon based upon the fantastically practical AA battery thing. However, I've started doing more structured actual 'training' on the bike which involved getting a copy of the black book/annual manual, stealing a cadence measuring cateye computer off my brother and getting a basic watch style heart rate monitor to strap to the bars.

I've already run out of space on the bars for audaxes with the HRM going on the wrist and replaced by route sheet holder as the bike computer is the other side of the stem, which got me to thinking of the GPS options:

Edge 705/800 as a 'do everything.
Pro's include:

Con's:


Oregon 450 as a route mapper GPS only

Pro's:
Cheaper
Only needs to come out on the bike when it's actually needed.
AA batteries mega convenient for touring or to thwart forgetfulness (providing there's spares in the bag or a shop nearby!)
Won't have loads of wires up the fork and charger unit cluttering up the place

Cons:


Am I missing anything here in terms of potential ball ache/annoyance? The whole e-werk/dinamo lighting swapping thing really doesn't appeal but mightn't be that bad if I
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Greenbank on November 18, 2010, 12:11:02 pm
I've gone for:-

Edge 705
PowerTap wheel for even more data!
Extra cadence/speed sensors on other bikes (an extra £35 each)

For long Audaxes I use a PortaPow Li-Ion battery pack. That's enough to keep the Edge 705 going over a 600km Audax and keep my iPhone topped up too.

For longer Audaxes (i.e. PBP) I'll just use a cheapo battery pack that allows me to plug in 4 x AA batteries and provides USB out to charge/power the Edge 705 and iPhone. Batteries are easily available, or carry a stock of rechargeables.

For touring I'd take the PortaPow and look to charge it up from the mains every couple of days or so (the charging adapter is very small and light). Battery pack thingy as a backup.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 18, 2010, 12:15:50 pm
I can hardly help since I'm only a GPS-newbie myself - but removing a 705 (or 605 in my case) from the bracket is as easy as easy can be, and popped into any pocket or small bag.  So that point can be struck off the list of worries.

The handlebar stem is the best place for an Edge - so you won't necessarily need more space on the bars.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: dasmoth on November 18, 2010, 12:19:36 pm
Sorry if I'm missing something but if you like the Oregon and want to stick to AA batteries, why not get Oregon + HR + Cadence sensors and use that as a "do everything"?
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: corshamjim on November 18, 2010, 12:22:52 pm
Or even a Dakota 20 and add the HR and Cadence sensors if you want.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Jaded on November 18, 2010, 12:26:52 pm
For long Audaxes I use a PortaPow Li-Ion battery pack. That's enough to keep the Edge 705 going over a 600km Audax and keep my iPhone topped up too.

On a dark 200km it also means yo can have the back-light on continuous, if you are of a nervous disposition.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Greenbank on November 18, 2010, 12:27:28 pm
Quote
Convenience - would need to ensure GPS charged and ready everytime I go out for a ride just for the sake of speed/distance etc.

Won't be a problem.

I left mine fully charged for 2 weeks. When I went to use it was still showing full charge. The charge doesn't drop like NiMH rechargeables.

Quote
also get in the habit of removing it from bars the moment I leave the bike. possible ball ache?

I'd be paranoid about someone snatching it off the bike!

Indeed, so am I, I never leave it on there. As Biggsy says, it takes seconds to unclip. If anything the clip is a little too delicate. I'm a bit nervous about it popping out on a bouncy fast descent. I was going to look at attaching a lanyard of some sort...
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: GrahamG on November 18, 2010, 12:33:02 pm
Sorry if I'm missing something but if you like the Oregon and want to stick to AA batteries, why not get Oregon + HR + Cadence sensors and use that as a "do everything"?

I didn't realise you could do this - garmin site just has their info geared to other uses! It presumably wouldn't have the training flexibility bit though and just provide the basic info back. Thanks ever so much for bring that up though, I was totally unawares!
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Ham on November 18, 2010, 01:08:02 pm
I have a 305 and an Oregon 450, I bought the 450 for walking and have now got a bike bracket for the Oregon. The Oregon screen kicks ass, and the battery life is great. I've only used the Oregon for a few rides, no HRM or cadence, but I have been very impressed - I did a ride from London to Coventry mostly through back streets and completely unknown territory without putting a wheel wrong. The large touch screen is great benefit when you need to see what might be happening. I would also say that the 305/705 clip is very flimsy, and the latch is prone to break. I have had the 305 bounce out on occasion, and to its credit it survived the experience. I know the 305 is not the same as the route mapping 705, but I would choose the Oregon every time for its versatility. If that doesn't count, the real advantage of the 705/800 I can see  is the smaller package.  Using the Oregon touch screen with gloves is possible.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: GrahamG on November 18, 2010, 01:37:57 pm
I think it'd probably be the 800 which has solved the flimsy mount issue apparently. I guess it's just a choice as to whether or not I'll use the training features - need to find somewhere to demo that lot when it finds its way into stock.

Thanks all for the replies - I wasn't expecting such a quick succession!
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Greenbank on November 18, 2010, 01:39:21 pm
To be fair to the Edge 705 mount, I've done 5000km+ with mine and it's holding just as well as it did on day 1. Doesn't stop me being nervous about it though.

Stem mounted works best (http://www.greenbank.org/misc/IMG_0909.JPG) and leaves handlebars free for hands...
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: tom_e on November 18, 2010, 01:49:35 pm
Other things that made me go for an Oregon:

* It's convenient for walking or other activities too - you may or may not care about this.

* Think of the battery thing not just now, but in a couple of years time if you intend to use it that long.  Both your LiPoly battery and AA NiMH will have declined greatly by then.  Will you still be able to get a replacement 705 battery?  What will it cost?  AAs will be pretty easy, and probably even improved.

* Oregon has a "picture viewer" with zoom and scroll.  This means you can put a jpeg of notes on it at home and view them in your convenient waterproof GPS when you want to without mucking about looking for the bits of paper.  May or may not be of interest to you.


On tour, I've extended battery time massively by only turning it on as needed anyway.  It's very useful to have on the bars available within 30 seconds even when turned off most of the time.  This applies to either option (provided you're running a separate cycle computer or don't care about distance logged).
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Ham on November 18, 2010, 02:04:58 pm
To be fair to the Edge 705 mount, I've done 5000km+ with mine and it's holding just as well as it did on day 1. Doesn't stop me being nervous about it though.

Stem mounted works best (http://www.greenbank.org/misc/IMG_0909.JPG) and leaves handlebars free for hands...

OK, to be fair, the issue is not holding it in situ or the basic design, it is when you DON'T mount the device in the holder that the clip is most subject to getting caught, bending, weakening and breaking.  I've tried different locations and they all seem to suffer. The Oregon seems to be made of sterner stuff, although when I mentioned it previously someone here said that was also prone to weakening. The Oregon has a larger mass and therefore will stress a bracket more than a 705
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Jaded on November 18, 2010, 02:18:34 pm

* Think of the battery thing not just now, but in a couple of years time if you intend to use it that long.  Both your LiPoly battery and AA NiMH will have declined greatly by then.  Will you still be able to get a replacement 705 battery?  What will it cost?  AAs will be pretty easy, and probably even improved.

You can change them yourself if you are reasonably handy. c £25
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: tom_e on November 18, 2010, 02:28:05 pm
You can change them yourself if you are reasonably handy. c £25

I was assuming you could.
I wasn't asking about what they cost now, but about buying one in a couple of years time.
(no, buying a spare one now and storing it won't work, not unless you keep it in the fridge)
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 18, 2010, 03:55:09 pm
I suspect that the Edge 705 is popular enough that replacement batteries will be around for more than a couple more years - from Chinese independents as well as Garmin.  This is the case with batteries for popular cameras - still available well after the cameras are discontinued.

If that is too optimistic, well, you might want a new model by then anyway.  GPSs are bound to improve spectacularly.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: frankly frankie on November 18, 2010, 06:18:43 pm
Not if the last couple of years is anything to go by - in some respects newer Garmins are nothing like as good as the older ones.  Certainly far less configurable, which is my main complaint.  And there's not really any room for accuracy to improve, on leisure-grade GPS.

So that leaves the display as the thing that is most likely to improve - except when you look at this:
newer Garmin on the left, older model on the right
(http://www.aukadia.net/gps/dakota-font.jpg)
you have to wonder if they really are going in the right direction.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Jaded on November 18, 2010, 06:24:55 pm
For me better displays (bigger, clearer, with changeable font sizes - not touch screen as I often cycle with gloves) and significantly faster processors (orders of magnitude, not 50% faster etc) would encourage me to upgrade from my 705 more than having ubiquitous batteries.

Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: dasmoth on November 18, 2010, 06:31:53 pm
I can't help feeling there's an aspect of familiarity when it comes to preferred display style.  Certainly, I'd pick the one on the left.  Nothing says "clunky" to my eyes faster than non-antialiased text rendering.

That said, I've not used a Dakota in anger myself and I get the impression that it's trying to squeeze what's essentially the Oregon firmware into a screen that's smaller than it was originally designed for -- which might create issues.

There's definitely scope for improvement in the software layer.  Routing along tracks would be nice, for instance, and there's lots of scope for improving the map rendering.  Garmin don't seem too interested in opening up development for their devices though (except through the Wherigo system, which has its own limitations).  I have a suspicion that the days of the "leisure GPS" are numbered, though, and by the time I need a new one it'll just be another piece of software for my phone.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Jaded on November 18, 2010, 06:34:45 pm
it'll just be another piece of software for my phone.


Like  this (http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2010/08/apple-introduces-us-to-the-smart-bike.html)?

Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: MattH on November 18, 2010, 06:38:54 pm
To be fair to the Edge 705 mount, I've done 5000km+ with mine and it's holding just as well as it did on day 1. Doesn't stop me being nervous about it though.

I've broken three in about 20000km.

Two have failed with the lever on the clip - but in a "safe" way, where the 705 is still held securely. You need to get in with a small key or screwdriver to remove it.
One failed where the cable ties pass through the mount. It seemed to be vibrating more than usual, then I realised it was only actually held on by one tie.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: dasmoth on November 18, 2010, 06:40:10 pm
it'll just be another piece of software for my phone.


Like  this (http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2010/08/apple-introduces-us-to-the-smart-bike.html)?

Quite.

Although surely there's a fair amount of prior art -- existing wireless sensor networks, smartphone fitness applications, etc.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: dasmoth on November 18, 2010, 06:40:35 pm
Also:

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/05/first-look-at-wahoo-fitness-ant-iphone.html (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/05/first-look-at-wahoo-fitness-ant-iphone.html)
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2010, 06:47:27 pm
I've been building up a spreadsheet full of data on all the available GPS units to help me decide which one to get, and the Oregon certainly seems to have more plus features over the Edge.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Jord on November 18, 2010, 11:06:38 pm
I've owned a 705 for about two years before replacing it with an Oregon earlier this year and in my opinion the Oregon is a lot better unit for. And it is more reliable - I had the 705 freeze, stop navigating, currupt GPX files, and of course the battery problem is always a problem no matter which work around you have.

The 705 is also very bike specific (could be a plus) but as I also use the GPS for walking the Oregon is a better all-round unit.

I also had a Dekota for a weekend - I felt it was just too small on the bike and felt a lot more flimsy than the Oregon - of course the smaller size may be a massive plus for some.

Only my opinion of course - others may see it differently but there is no way I'd go back to a 705 after using the Oregon.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Kim on November 18, 2010, 11:44:31 pm
I can't help feeling there's an aspect of familiarity when it comes to preferred display style.  Certainly, I'd pick the one on the left.  Nothing says "clunky" to my eyes faster than non-antialiased text rendering.

There's a hardware factor too, of course.  Screenshots on your computer won't account for the effect of a lower resolution LCD.  Holding them side by side the text on the eTrex display (the one on the right) looks much much better than that screenshot.  I assume the same is probably true of the one on the left (Oregon?), though to a lesser extent as it's display is probably more similar to a computer monitor.

I also have a previous-generation eTrex here, a Legend, which has a fairly high-res mono LCD (probably about the same DPI as the Vista HCx).  The text on the trip computer is in the same style as the eTrex screenshot above (though the layout differs), but looks much smoother.

Of course familiarity comes into play there too.  I *really* like good quality mono reflective LCDs.  You just can't beat them for visibility in sunlight.  I have trouble discriminating certain colours, so for me the colour display only really serves to make the map screen less cluttered looking - I can't reliably infer anything from the shade of a given line.  YMMV.


I reckon there's merit in an GPS with an e-ink display.  That probably won't happen until colour e-ink is an option, but it could well be the Next Big Thing that keeps dedicated GPS units separate from phones.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 19, 2010, 05:17:24 am
And so the Oregon should be better-performing than the Edge considering it's 1.7 times larger and 1.8 times heavier.  A laptop would be even more powerful, but the Edge is as big a bicycle accessory as I want at the moment.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Jaded on November 19, 2010, 08:16:49 am
I've used the Edge walking, in the Scottish Highlands. It performed fine.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Jord on November 19, 2010, 09:58:59 am
Code: [Select]
I've used the Edge walking, in the Scottish Highlands. It performed fine.
I found my 705 does perform fine in the hills but the are quite a few features you would expect from a walking GPS missing - things like listing the way points in the nearest to order, go to features ect and the joy stick is always getting caught on something in your pocket. And on a multi day trip the battery problem.
Great unit the 705 is but it is a limited walking computer - the same as the Oregon is a limited training device. Both are aimed at a different market and the 705 is a very bike specific unit - which is wonderful if that is what you want but for me I want an all around GPS. The Oregon is also a good SatNav.

Both are great bits of kit and it just depends on your use.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: GrahamG on November 19, 2010, 11:13:26 am
SOme interesting pointers. I've no doubt that whatever I end up getting it will most definitely be purely for bike use - for the very occasional car journey, we've both got HTC smart phones with GPS for getting lost with.

Adam - I haven't got that far yet as I simply don't understand the pros and cons of the technical specs! Would be interested to know what affects your choice.

I think I'll have to wait for the Edge 800 to hit the shops and get some useful feedback once the hysteria has died down
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: frankly frankie on November 19, 2010, 11:25:54 am
There's a hardware factor too, of course.  Screenshots on your computer won't account for the effect of a lower resolution LCD.  Holding them side by side the text on the eTrex display (the one on the right) looks much much better than that screenshot.  I assume the same is probably true of the one on the left (Oregon?), though to a lesser extent as it's display is probably more similar to a computer monitor.
(http://www.aukadia.net/gps/dakota-font.jpg)
I should point out that while the left-hand image (Dakota) is a straight screen dump, the right-hand one (Etrex C) has been downsized by an awkward amount, to make the relative sizes of the two match the real world.  In other words, the Etrex C is actually higher-res than the Dakota, and a straight screen dump would make it look bigger than it actually is.  So some (not all) of the jagginess on the right-hand image is due to this.

The Oregon screen is obviously out on its own - both much bigger and much higher resolution than either of the others.  Personally I think the package is just a bit big, and anyway it's not just about the display, there are loads of reasons why I prefer the old Etrex C.
(From the very useful Oregon Wiki (http://garminoregon.wikispaces.com/) - not exactly to scale, I'm guessing)
(http://garminoregon.wikispaces.com/file/view/Trip1.jpg/85243937/Trip1.jpg)
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Ham on November 19, 2010, 11:46:38 am
The Oregon screen is good - don't forget that you can't specify the physical size on screen.  Personally, I would rather have a high definition mono, but the Oregon is good enough under most situations, plus with the easy scale up / scale down combined with the size, I find myself looking ahead to understand the next turn. That means that somewhere along the way before the turn you normally get a good shufty at what to do. Riding in the dark, the display lights up about 10 m before a waypoint.

On the negative side, occasionally the pointer occasionally gets "lost" in a bottom corner of the screen when you have "orient in the track direction" (normal route more), which typically happens turning at a complex junction. Normally easy to see beforehand, but I have had to stop and look at it once or twice to make sure I went the right way. I think it's a feature of the way the Oregon works as a compass (however you hold it) and so ends up turning the screen much faster than most other units.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 20, 2010, 03:50:00 pm
A big point against the Edge 605/705 (dunno about 800) is the lack of manual route planning ability.  Even doing it via your PC as a "course" is rubbish, as I found in practice today.

On the unit, the pink line indicating the course disappears from the screen when you go into the menus to alter the map detail level, or anything like that, meaning you have to push a load of buttons to get it back again, then a load more to get it at the right position and zoom.   I quickly gave up on that.  A shame, because it's purely a firmware issue.

I would have gone for something more functional if not so bothered about the size factor.  That's not to say I'm not delighted to have a map on my bike with indicator of where I am, and the auto-route facility.  That's 90% of what I want, and all of what I need.


EDIT:  Please ignore the above.  The problem doesn't happen with the route as a .gpx rather than a Course.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: MattH on November 20, 2010, 04:47:35 pm
I tend to use routes, rather than courses. If I've been into menus, then pressing the mode button repeatedly is all I need to do to bring the map with the pink line back up.

I'm not sure what you mean by the right position and zoom; altering map detail doesn't change what your zoom level is when you back out to the map display using the mode button. The position is always centred on you. When you get back to the map display, your line should just be there.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 20, 2010, 05:06:35 pm
I'll look into it again, but I thought a Course was the only way to see a manually plotted route in my Edge 605.

Trying it today, it wasn't centred on me, and the zoom level is altered, when I set it back to Course mode after the Course disappeared after I altered some settings.  It went back to a position in the middle of the course, and zoomed well out.

Repeatedly pressing the Mode button did not get me back to the Course after I altererd the map detail level.  I had to select the Course mode all over again, which reset the displayed position and zoom.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 20, 2010, 06:37:18 pm
Matt, what folder and file names on the unit or memory card do you use for your routes, and what format are they in (.gpx?)?  Thanks.

EDIT:  OK, I'm now suspecting folder "GPX" and you access it via Saved Rides (?) - but the route I made today has more than 100 points, so doesn't work.  I'll try another.  Then if I'm wrong and it's any good, I'll cross out my comments above.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Wowbagger on November 20, 2010, 11:31:25 pm
What would I do? I'd forget all the gadgetry and just go for a bike ride!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: MattH on November 20, 2010, 11:34:27 pm
That's correct - save as GPX and access via saved rides.

I didn't think that more than 100 points is a problem - though I normally break rides into smaller sections (separate routes within the same gpx). Typically on an Audax that'll be two or three stages per route, then I'll manually name them as "1 name_of_ride", "2 name_of_ride" etc.

The reason for that is to decrease route calculation time rather than to decrease points. If you really need more than 100 route points then either you have an incredibly tortuous ride or you'll have somewhere where you intend to stop and eat - that's a good place to break the route up. For reference, my route for the Bryan Chapman 600k took 146 points, plus another 12 for the 160k ride there and 7 for the 145k ride back. That was split up into 8 routes for the BCM and one each there and back - so 10 routes in the same GPX.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 21, 2010, 12:52:26 am
Thanks Matt.  I'll give it another go.  I thought it had to be better!

The >100 points thing is because I created the route with BikeHike, and it wasn't taking the way I wanted unless clicking a great number of points.  There was an option to reduce the number of points afterwards - but I didn't try that.

(I don't do Audax, by the way, just my own rides).      (Apologies for the thread-hijack).

What would I do? I'd forget all the gadgetry and just go for a bike ride!  :thumbsup:

That's all I did until very recently - and loved not needing to plan - until getting a Brompton, using public transport and going more to areas I'm not familiar with and wanting to do fewer miles than usual (because it's harder work on this thing), yet still see interesting or different stuff.  The GPS is enabling that and adding another dimension to my bike rides after all these years.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Wowbagger on November 21, 2010, 04:53:25 am
What would I do? I'd forget all the gadgetry and just go for a bike ride!  :thumbsup:

That's all I did until very recently - and loved not needing to plan - until getting a Brompton, using public transport and going more to areas I'm not familiar with and wanting to do fewer miles than usual (because it's harder work on this thing), yet still see interesting or different stuff.  The GPS is enabling that and adding another dimension to my bike rides after all these years.

I know, I use a GPS too and it's great - I generally carry OS maps as well but having the track in front of me available for a quick glance means that I don't have to stop at junctions and get the map out of the front bag. For long tours the Garmin is massively helpful and I reckon probably takes half an hour off a day's cycling with all the stops I would otherwise make.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: MattH on November 21, 2010, 09:41:51 am
The >100 points thing is because I created the route with BikeHike, and it wasn't taking the way I wanted unless clicking a great number of points.  There was an option to reduce the number of points afterwards - but I didn't try that.

I plot routes in Mapsource, and after a while you get the hang of how the units do their autorouting - so you can see that a particular road may only need a single route point a short way into the road to force the routing that way, then nothing for the next 10km as there is only one way it will go. Sometimes it'll surprise me and take me the wrong way (e.g. I've had it when riding with another rider using the same GPX file but on a different model of Garmin, mine has taken me one way around a block whilst his the other way).

It's generally best to put route points on the junction of roads, otherwise it'll warn you that you are coming up to a waypoint on a straight section (though I sometimes do that). I'll drop a point at the junction where I turn off a road, then possibly one at a side road junction a way up the road I want to go on to make sure it really does take me that way rather than up a parallel road.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 21, 2010, 10:29:57 am
Thanks again Matt for the GPX tips, and sorry for reply #32 above - a load of irrelevance.  So I'm now even more pleased with my Edge 605.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: hbunnet on November 21, 2010, 10:44:36 am
And the Garmin Topo maps don't have such fine contours as the free ones..

Can't speak for the Edge, but on the Oregon the UK 1:50000 maps are identical to the paper ones, which means the contours are 10m interval and better than the "free" ones. 

Nothing wrong with the "free" ones, I'm an enthusiastic OSM mapper.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 21, 2010, 11:18:11 am
And the Garmin Topo maps don't have such fine contours as the free ones..

Can't speak for the Edge, but on the Oregon the UK 1:50000 maps are identical to the paper ones, which means the contours are 10m interval and better than the "free" ones.

Ah, thanks.  I think I might not have the best/proper version of Topo then.  The intervals are only 50m - in Mapsource as well as on the Edge.  I can't complain because I didn't pay for it!  (I did pay lots for City Navigator).
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 21, 2010, 11:20:23 am
ps.  I deleted my comment above about not being able to see fine contours at the same time as another map in Mapsource - because I remembered I can actually with one of the OSM ones (although it has some holes in it).
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: MattH on November 21, 2010, 11:56:11 am
Thanks again Matt for the GPX tips, and sorry for reply #32 above - a load of irrelevance.  So I'm now even more pleased with my Edge 605.

That's OK. The thing with these GPS units is they are not really ready for "prime time" consumer use yet. There are lots of little things that don't work quite as you'd expect, but once you know how to get the result you want they are pretty good. Even with the foibles, I'd be lost without mine!
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Greenbank on November 22, 2010, 07:03:15 pm
That's correct - save as GPX and access via saved rides.

I didn't think that more than 100 points is a problem

I use bikehike and save as GPXX (which is an extended version of GPX that 605/705s understand).

A few GPX points (one per control) but thousands of GPXX extension points for the actual route.

http://www.greenbank.org/misc/sc400a.gpx

Of course you still want to split out and back routes up, to avoid it trying to route you to the end, but there's simply no such thing as a 100 point limit any more.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Manotea on November 22, 2010, 10:58:32 pm
Tll now I've been using courses on my 705 but I really miss the pop up instructions for junctions you get with follow road routes.

So, can I load a route gpx prepared in mapsource into bikehike then save it as a GPXX 'Route'?

Are there any utilities to do this on the PC without involving Bikehike et al?
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: frankly frankie on November 23, 2010, 09:30:04 am
If you plan with autorouting turned on in Mapsource and save out as a GPX, you get a file that looks very similar to the one Greenbank has - that is, a few Routepoints with loads of 'gpxx' points.  I'm just speculating - that Mapsource can do this on its own.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: MattH on November 23, 2010, 10:36:30 am
I certainly always use routes, and never go anywhere near bikehike. Mapsource just works for me.

For peace of mind, why not try both methods on your next long ride? Save the route out as you'd normally do with one name (so you know you have a working course you can follow), but then just save it out of mapsource as a gpx route with a different name (so you know which is which). Then on the road try following the route, and if it does give you problems then you can fall back on your old method.

Mapsource may not be pretty, but it really is all that you need (plus, of course, a reasonable mapset like City Navigator). I couldn't be doing with all this back-and-forth converting between different formats using various programs and sites. I can see the point if you haven't got mapsource and a full matching garmin mapset on your PC and device.

If somebody else provides a gps track for a ride, then I normally load that into Mapsource, then retrace it as a route myself in conjuction with the route sheet - so I've read the sheet and know any warnings, plus I can check the track.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 23, 2010, 11:00:40 am
BikeHike has an advantage over Mapsource + City Navigator in showing contour lines at the same time as everything else.  You can send the route straight to the memory card; you don't have to swap back and forth between programs.

(The OSM map combined with contours I tried in Mapsource had holes in it, just where I didn't need them as well).
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Greenbank on November 23, 2010, 12:46:08 pm
If you plan with autorouting turned on in Mapsource and save out as a GPX, you get a file that looks very similar to the one Greenbank has - that is, a few Routepoints with loads of 'gpxx' points.  I'm just speculating - that Mapsource can do this on its own.

It's on my list of things to do to check out what can and can't be done with each programme/website (Mapsource and bikehike). I've not done too many routes myself, and usually they've been done in a hurry, and never with Mapsource.

I have some time over the next few evenings so I'll begin to take a look and report back.

Needless to say, a couple of GPX files (to solve the out/back routing problems) for a long ride, all created on one website/program with minimal faffage is just fantastic for me.

The only thing you have to make sure of is that the GPS has been setup for the right kind of routing settings. I ran into trouble on the Snowdon & Coast 400 as it didn't like the look of some very small roads (the single lane road through Cwm Penmachno between the B4391/B4407 and the A5) that it wanted to keep me on the B4391, down through Ffestiniog and up the A470 to Betws-Y-Coed. I think I needed to set it to 'off-road' routing, but I've promptly forgotten what it was set to...
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: frankly frankie on November 23, 2010, 01:00:41 pm
The only thing you have to make sure of is that the GPS has been setup for the right kind of routing settings.

So doesn't that suggest that the gpxx points don't actually do anything?  If the GPS is happy to go its own way anyway?
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Jord on November 23, 2010, 01:32:27 pm
I used to use a 705 with GPX files (saved rides folder) and it worked fine up to a point but would often jam on longer rides and took for ever to calculate the route. So checking how the GPX works on a short ride may not show up the problem the 705 has with GPX files. Gpxx is the way to go inho for the 705/605.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Greenbank on November 23, 2010, 02:02:14 pm
The only thing you have to make sure of is that the GPS has been setup for the right kind of routing settings.

So doesn't that suggest that the gpxx points don't actually do anything?  If the GPS is happy to go its own way anyway?

As I understand it (which is far from 100%) is that it'll find a route through all of the GPX points, but the GPXX points are just a suggestion (and what is displayed on the map as a track). If the routing algorithm decides to take you on a route other than the GPXX route then the routing settings need tweaking.

The S&C400 was all my fault that I didn't check (by zooming out) that the two were the same. Nor did I have it setup to have both the suggested route (by routing algorithm) and the track (by gpxx) on the screen at the same time, otherwise I would have noticed them diverge and known to correct it.

The problem is that to get the screens that pop-up and say "left in 300m onto B4401" requires routing (and for the routing to be correct). The alternative is a route with route points placed at each junction and named appropriately, which takes much more time.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 25, 2010, 06:38:49 pm
To be fair to the Edge 705 mount, I've done 5000km+ with mine and it's holding just as well as it did on day 1. Doesn't stop me being nervous about it though.

Stem mounted works best (http://www.greenbank.org/misc/IMG_0909.JPG) and leaves handlebars free for hands...

OK, to be fair, the issue is not holding it in situ or the basic design, it is when you DON'T mount the device in the holder that the clip is most subject to getting caught, bending, weakening and breaking.  I've tried different locations and they all seem to suffer. The Oregon seems to be made of sterner stuff, although when I mentioned it previously someone here said that was also prone to weakening. The Oregon has a larger mass and therefore will stress a bracket more than a 705

How old is your 705?

Apparently, the current Edge bracket is an improvement on the older one, with a thicker clip: MTBR.com - New Edge Mount (http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=5796983&postcount=1).

And this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320617777518&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT) for those who also want the unit to fit a bit more tightly.  (I just got two and compared to the recently-purchased original).
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Jaded on November 26, 2010, 11:32:55 am
Registered people only to view those images, unfortunately
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: Biggsy on November 26, 2010, 11:40:04 am
I signed up just to see the images!

The text of the post is interesting anyway.
Title: Re: Garmin Edge vs. Oregon (and the battery thing!) WWYD?
Post by: GrahamG on January 04, 2011, 10:33:50 am
Well, wedding costs mean that I've not any room for GPS indulgence but that's probably for the best. Going to see how I get on doing an SR and then maybe treat myself if I'm still in a job come the autumn.