Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: Tewdric on September 03, 2011, 07:41:39 am

Title: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Tewdric on September 03, 2011, 07:41:39 am
Bradley W has retained the leader's jersey in the Vuelta after the first serious mountain stage.  He's in with a chance of winning the overall, which would make him the first British rider to win a  Grand Tour since when? 

Perhaps we should be wibbling about it more than we are!
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Justin(e) on September 03, 2011, 08:07:49 am
Bradley W has retained the leader's jersey in the Vuelta after the first serious mountain stage.  He's in with a chance of winning the overall, which would make him the first British rider to win a  Grand Tour since when? 

Perhaps we should be wibbling about it more than we are!

It'll never happen.  The title of this thread gives it away - if you have to number the days in red that he has so far from the finish, it means that each day is a surprise.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: cyclone on September 03, 2011, 08:43:46 am
I'd love to see it happen for Brad but Nibali is nibbling away.......
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Biff on September 03, 2011, 04:15:19 pm
I'll bet Sky are rueing that dreadfull TTT  :-\
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: JohnP on September 03, 2011, 04:44:45 pm
My fingers are crossed for Wiggins.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Justin(e) on September 03, 2011, 04:45:40 pm
Froome is really impressing.  He does heaps of work as a domestique and yet is still in a very good second.

Nibaldi had a poor day today so ....   just maybe Brad might do it.  How would he have gone at the tour, we will never know.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 03, 2011, 04:48:35 pm
Tomorrow will be interesting.
(click to show/hide)

Brad looked a wee bit weary when he crossed the line today.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 03, 2011, 04:59:08 pm
Tomorrow will be interesting.
(click to show/hide)

Brad looked a wee bit weary when he crossed the line today.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on September 03, 2011, 09:26:26 pm
Brad has not been the strongest on the really steep hills and it is the Angliru tomorrow.  Doubt he will still be in red tomorrow night - and shame that Eurosport can't find it in their hearts to provide live coverage....
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: andrew_s on September 03, 2011, 10:06:03 pm
ITV are streaming live coverage, but that seems the only option.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 03, 2011, 10:08:52 pm
Brad has not been the strongest on the really steep hills and it is the Angliru tomorrow.  Doubt he will still be in red tomorrow night - and shame that Eurosport can't find it in their hearts to provide live coverage....

Did you watch today's stage? All the "real climbers" left struggling when Wiggins and Froome just stepped up the pressure a bit?

In the words of Matt Rendell (who I'm beginning to like in spite of those glasses),the Angliru is a circus trick. If they have any energy left (which seems not to be the case) the "real climbers" might be a worry - but they're all a long way behind overall.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 03, 2011, 10:09:30 pm
ITV are streaming live coverage, but that seems the only option.
I knew that. Pathetic, isn't it? And even Eurosport isn't showing it live. Idiots. I'm going for a ride instead (unless BBC Weather's promise of liquid Armageddon happens).
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 03, 2011, 10:16:02 pm
Brad has not been the strongest on the really steep hills and it is the Angliru tomorrow.  Doubt he will still be in red tomorrow night - and shame that Eurosport can't find it in their hearts to provide live coverage....

Brad does not cope with the change of pace that a bunch of climbers will usually race with - attack, ease, attack, ease until someone breaks. Brad and Froome rode instead to their strengths, riding at threshold which is harder than the pure climbers can sustain. Very few can attack when the pace is that high as they know that the group will just ride back to them when they ease off. Very much an Indurain style - set an intense pace and keep it constant. And ride everybody else off your wheel.

This is why he doesn't do as well on the short steep climbs. The angliru however is a long steep climb. The longer the better for Brad.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Steve Kish on September 03, 2011, 11:11:36 pm
Quote
I'll bet Sky are rueing that dreadfull TTT 


Perhaps they should have picked Alex Dowsett. :smug:
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 03, 2011, 11:41:16 pm
I think David M has it spot on. Let's not forget how well Wiggins rode up the Ventoux in 2009 - he lost only 25 seconds to Contador and Schleck that day. And only five seconds to Nibali. And he's an even stronger rider now than he was then...

Wiggins won't win the stage tomorrow, that much is obvious. The question is whether or not he can limit his losses. Maybe Mollema - or possibly Cobo or Fuglsang - could take enough out of him to snatch the lead by a few seconds, but not Nibali, surely.

But I confidently predict he'll do enough to stay in red tomorrow. If a non-climber like Cadel Evans can win the TdF, there's no reason Wiggins can't win the Vuelta.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 04, 2011, 12:28:53 am
Oh, and if anyone in London wants to see live coverage, it'll be on the big screen at Look Mum No Hands.

I'd so love to go up for that. Can't see my wife being too keen on the idea though. Dang it.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Tewdric on September 04, 2011, 04:21:56 pm
Wiggins is riding strongly up the Angliru at the front of the field.  Nibali is dropping back..  Justa  handful of Km to go.

Juan Jose Cobo is attacking but needs to get 40 secs on Wiggo to take the red.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Tewdric on September 04, 2011, 04:36:15 pm
Nooo!  Wiggins has been dropped by the lead group. 

Looks like he's lost the overall lead to Cobo, although Chris Froome will be very close behind him with wiggo a few seconds behind that. 
Title: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 04, 2011, 04:59:32 pm
Oh well, it was a brave effort by Brad but it wasn't to be. Still, he actually increased the gap over Mollema, Nibali et al, which is quite an achievement in itself. Great ride by Cobo, to be fair. Would like to think it's not yet race over for Brad but can't see where he'll pull that much time back. Shame.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 04, 2011, 05:11:23 pm
How big a disaster does that TTT performance look now? Intermediate bonuses and one more mountain stage to go - is Cobo beatable?

Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Billy Weir on September 04, 2011, 05:12:56 pm
Fingers crossed he at least makes it to the podium along with Chris Froome.  It's been a good show for Team Sky so far, the opening day's team TT aside (without which, the current standings would have been different...)
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 04, 2011, 08:07:06 pm
How big a disaster does that TTT performance look now? Intermediate bonuses and one more mountain stage to go - is Cobo beatable?

Yes, that was a costly disaster. But now... Just how strong are Geox? They seem now to have three leaders (Cobo+Menchov+Sastre) and one other climber (de la Fuente) and that's about it. There's only one serious mountain stage to come. Will they be able to keep Cobo up there?
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Chris S on September 04, 2011, 08:17:19 pm
It's a shame this is such a non-story in the media.

I had to drill three layers deep into the BBC-News website to see any mention of Wiggins. There it was as a small one liner link at the bottom of the page. Just above "Walliams tackles the Thames". Sigh...
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 04, 2011, 08:57:56 pm
It's a shame this is such a non-story in the media.

I had to drill three layers deep into the BBC-News website to see any mention of Wiggins. There it was as a small one liner link at the bottom of the page. Just above "Walliams tackles the Thames". Sigh...

Whatever you do, don't look at BBC teletext or whatever they call it.

The Vuelta (and all cycling - they didn't have even a TdF section this year) is in "Other sport" if they mention it at all and didn't even make the "Sport headlines" when Wiggo got red.

At other times I turn to "Regional sport" and expect to read about Germaine Burton or the Herne Hill Good Friday International and what is there? Bugger all.

Apparently overpaid prats kicking balls about and losing (and that's just Leyton Orient) are more important. And apparently, golf, snooker and darts are sport. Weird!

Mind you, the BBC has never used its digital facilites properly. No feedback on Any Questions, no update for last-minute programme changes, no real interactivity at all.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Steve Kish on September 04, 2011, 09:17:11 pm
Quote
And apparently, golf, snooker and darts are sport.

Golf, maybe but the others .... ?  Their popularity is linked to the ease in which any Joe Public can dive down the pub and get stuck into them.  Once in a blue moon, just like the blokes on TV, they get treble 20 or a fluke shot.  Surprised the BBC don't televise the Embassy World Shove Halfpenny Tournament.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 05, 2011, 01:05:12 pm
Interesting comments from Jonathan Vaughters on Twitter about the power output required to ride up the Angliru as fast as Cobo did.

I smell a subtext, but I can't for the life of me work out what he might be trying to hint at.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 05, 2011, 01:23:09 pm
Interesting comment on Twitter from Charlie Wegelius.
Quote
Cobo?
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 05, 2011, 01:47:19 pm
Interesting comment on Twitter from Charlie Wegelius.
Quote
Cobo?

To be fair, he did win the stage to Hautacam in the TdF a few years ago. OK, so it was only after his team-mate, Piepoli, who actually crossed the line first, was disqualified, but a win's a win. The pair finished 28 seconds ahead of Frank Schleck in third. Bernhard Kohl finished 4th and Riccardo Ricco finished 6th...

Anyway, innuendo aside, it was a fantastic race from the spectator's point of view yesterday, very exciting.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: mattc on September 05, 2011, 01:50:05 pm
My feeling about Wiggins is that the TdeF may well be beyond him. Contador, Evans, Schkeck(s) all seem a little stronger, and it only takes one of them to be on form in any given year.(There's probably some younger riders, too, that I've forgotten about, who will get in the way over the next few years.)

He's probably less suited to the hillier Giro/Vuelta, but a podium on either might well be his natural 'level' in road cycling. A win would be a bonus.

Anyway:
There are officially 3 "mountain stages" this week. 46s doesn't sound a lot in that context <goes off to find detailed profiles ... > Wiggo could do with a nice 50k ITT thrown in :D
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: mattc on September 05, 2011, 02:05:06 pm
Only looked at Wednesday's profile, but this looks a tough day to defend:


The second half is more complicated with two mountain passes, Sía and Alisa. In addition the Peña Cabarga finish will force cyclists to save some energy, since the final climb is about six kilometres and has an average gradient of nearly 10%, with ramps that reach as high as 18%.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 05, 2011, 02:10:33 pm
My feeling about Wiggins is that the TdeF may well be beyond him. Contador, Evans, Schkeck(s) all seem a little stronger, and it only takes one of them to be on form in any given year.

He definitely could have won it this year. With the form he was in going into the race, and a strong team behind him, he would have matched Evans in the mountains, as he showed in the Dauphiné. And he'd already outperformed Evans over the same TT course in that race. The Schlecks killed their own chances with indecision, Contador was knackered after the Giro and most of the other big names failed to show up.

Though admittedly a few of the other contenders could say the same thing - Brajkovic would probably have been up there competing for a podium spot if he hadn't also crashed out.

And I suspect Wiggo won't ever get as good an opportunity to win the TdF as that again.

Quote
(There's probably some younger riders, too, that I've forgotten about, who will get in the way over the next few years.)

Geraint Thomas, perhaps? Seriously, I reckon G would be a better bet for Sky in the long run.

There's also the likes of Tom Danielson, Rein Taaramae and Pierre Rolland coming up fast. And others, I'm sure, but they're just the first names that come to mind.

Quote
There are officially 3 "mountain stages" this week. 46s doesn't sound a lot in that context <goes off to find detailed profiles ... > Wiggo could do with a nice 50k ITT thrown in :D

In the previous mountain stages where Froome and Wiggo destroyed the field with their threshold riding, Cobo is the one rider who never lost any time to them. I can't see them closing the gap unless they can pick up a few time bonuses with a finish place. Maybe if the gap was just a little bit smaller, it might be possible to overhaul Cobo...

That team TT really was a disaster.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 05, 2011, 02:53:08 pm
They need to ride threshold for longer..
Easy to say :)

Is it me or was Brad slightly overgeared and that contributed to the time loss? He was the heaviest geared (38/32) of the top finishers - Cobo the easiest geared (34/28)
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: eeymsmo on September 05, 2011, 02:59:00 pm
Is it me or was Brad slightly overgeared and that contributed to the time loss? He was the heaviest geared (38/32) of the top finishers - Cobo the easiest geared (34/28)

other way round isn't it?

38/32 = 1.1875
34/28 = 1.214285714285714

(I'm assuming easiest means lowest which is how I've always taken it)
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Biff on September 05, 2011, 03:05:06 pm
Apparently at the start of the Vuelta Chris Froome was without a contract for 2012. What with Cav going to Sky I wonder if he has upped his worth so much that Sky can no longer afford him? Hope not. Wiggo needs him. But then Cav is going to have a new train for 2012 so who will Wiggo have as his lieutenant if Froome is tempted by megabucks elsewhere? Interesting times.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 05, 2011, 03:27:34 pm
Interesting comment on Twitter from Charlie Wegelius.
Quote
Cobo?

To be fair, he did win the stage to Hautacam in the TdF a few years ago. OK, so it was only after his team-mate, Piepoli, who actually crossed the line first, was disqualified, but a win's a win. The pair finished 28 seconds ahead of Frank Schleck in third. Bernhard Kohl finished 4th and Riccardo Ricco finished 6th...

Anyway, innuendo aside, it was a fantastic race from the spectator's point of view yesterday, very exciting.

d.

I've heard mutterings about Cobo before, but that didn't stop it being very exciting yesterday (albeit a tad depressing).
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: mattc on September 05, 2011, 03:28:16 pm
Is it me or was Brad slightly overgeared and that contributed to the time loss? He was the heaviest geared (38/32) of the top finishers - Cobo the easiest geared (34/28)
What caught my eye is that they all seemed to be  at comfortably high cadences*.
Whereas on Le Tour riders often seem to be labouring, and/or spending many kms out of the saddle. it's as if the officially more extreme gradients in Spain persuade them that an efficient cadence is more important than macho choice of chainset.

*at least until my 30min recording from ITV4 ended with 6km to go ...
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 05, 2011, 03:33:15 pm
Cobo's last stage win was by default when his teammmate Piepoli (of the infamous Saunier Duval team) was DQ'd from the win for doping.

Gearing - my memory was faulty

Cobo - 34 x 32 - 27.9
Froome - 36 x 28 - 33.8
Wiggins - 38 x 32 - 31.2
Mollema 36 x 28 - 33.8
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 05, 2011, 03:42:52 pm
his teammmate ... of the infamous Saunier Duval team

Ricco was part of the same team, of course.

Cobo's last stage win in a Grand Tour was in the 2009 Vuelta, by the way. Hautacam was 2008. (According to Wikipedia)

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 05, 2011, 04:03:43 pm
Is it me or was Brad slightly overgeared and that contributed to the time loss? He was the heaviest geared (38/32) of the top finishers - Cobo the easiest geared (34/28)
What caught my eye is that they all seemed to be  at comfortably high cadences*.
Whereas on Le Tour riders often seem to be labouring, and/or spending many kms out of the saddle. it's as if the officially more extreme gradients in Spain persuade them that an efficient cadence is more important than macho choice of chainset.

I'm always puzzled by the high gears and low cadences most GT riders usually use. Hasn't anyone ever told them mashing is inefficient and bad for the knees? Or is it some sort of macho thing ("My ratio's bigger than your ratio").

It is a pleasure to watch riders like Wiggo and Froome twiddling away so smoothly.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Tewdric on September 05, 2011, 09:28:55 pm
Let's wait to see if Cobo gets caught by a doping control.  It would be a shame if it happened after next weekend.  Brailsford must be fuming.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: parkysouthlondon on September 05, 2011, 09:47:24 pm
I think Wiggo is riding cleaver. He has such a smoooooooooth pedal action, embarrassing the other riders who must look at him and see class. Yes Class, and he does have belief in his abilities, if some of you don't. I mean he's Olympic and world champion unless you have forgotten.
You win a grand tour by being consistent and not worrying too much about loosing a few seconds here or there. He's just allowing the pressure to be taken off him, until he want to reclaim the leaders jersey.

Go Wiggo. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Biff on September 06, 2011, 12:01:24 am
Let's wait to see if Cobo gets caught by a doping control.  It would be a shame if it happened after next weekend.  Brailsford must be fuming.

Upon what do you base this putative outcome?  Why should Cobo get caught rather than Wiggo or Froome?
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 06, 2011, 12:13:46 am
It is suspicion based upon previous associations and utstanding preformances when in a team that was not known for a dislike of needles. He was the only rider to stay with Piepoli (banned for EPO) at the Hautaam in 2008, and a then teammate of Ricco (banned for EPO as well)

Cobo had split with the then trainer, had a bad year and is now back with him and producing outstanding results again. The finger of suspicion havers heavily in his direction as he shoots up the 'dodgy ones to watch' list at the UCI.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Biff on September 06, 2011, 12:24:13 am
Sorry David, I find your 'guilt by association' argument hard to stomach. Presumably you condemn performances by another Saunier Duval rider (a Mr Millar) equally irredeemable?
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 06, 2011, 08:38:14 am
I was not claiming he had doped, I was pointing out the reasons why some might find his performance to be a little suspicious. AFAIK he has found his best form for this race, and the physiological stats support it not being somthing extraordinary (exceptional, yes but not off the scale).
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 06, 2011, 08:48:00 am
I was not claiming he had doped, I was pointing out the reasons why some might find his performance to be a little suspicious. AFAIK he has found his best form for this race, and the physiological stats support it not being somthing extraordinary (exceptional, yes but not off the scale).

The problem with doping in sport is that the athlete is guilty until proved innocent once an allegation is made. Alleging doping is not the same as finding a performance anomalous or unexpected.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 06, 2011, 11:01:03 am
Alleging doping is not the same as finding a performance anomalous or unexpected.

"Anomalous" and "unexpected" are different things. Anomalies require explanations. Wiggo's performance in the 2009 TdF was unexpected but there was nothing anomalous about it (plus he was riding for an avowedly anti-doping team so it would be unbelievable hubris if it turned out he was doping). Voeckler's performance in the TdF this year was unexpected. Cobo's performance on Sunday was borderline anomalous but if, as David M says, the physiological stats back him up, then I'm happy to accept that it was merely unexpected.

Anyway, I watched highlights of the stage again last night. It was fantastic viewing, completely gripping even when you knew the outcome in advance. Taken at face value, it was a magnificent ride by Cobo.

As for Millar, he rode for Saunier Duval for one year - 2007, his comeback year - when they were the only team that would have him. I think it's quite telling that he didn't feel like sticking around. And given what happened in 2008, I bet he's glad he got out when he did.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 06, 2011, 12:01:41 pm
There are those who work out an atheletes power output over the course of the climb. Knowing the profile of the climb and the time you can get a reasonable estimate.

Because of the way that Brad&co ride the climbs, they are more steady state threshold efforts than pure climbers trying to knock spots off each other with accelerations. So the power output appears higher (as overall they go up faster).

Cobo produced a very high but not off the scale of believability performance. I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think the thing that won it for him was that fractionally lower gearing at the second really steep ramp. That was where Wiggins et al really lost time (and did anyone else catch the report of Wiggo having a spectators flag wrap round his bars - fortunately didn't knock him off).


Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 06, 2011, 12:23:35 pm
There are those who work out an atheletes power output over the course of the climb. Knowing the profile of the climb and the time you can get a reasonable estimate.
...
Cobo produced a very high but not off the scale of believability performance. I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt.

The not too subtle hints Vaughters was dropping were that his estimates made Cobo's performance look suspicious. Still, he's not exactly impartial, so perhaps he was choosing to interpret the figures in a certain way.

I didn't hear about the flag incident, but it might be regarded as a bit suspicious that they lost the camera following Brad at a crucial part of the climb! Sean Kelly also suggested that Cobo was getting a helpful push from some of the spectators...

But none of this speculation matters. All's fair in love and bike racing.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 06, 2011, 01:23:15 pm
The spectators were a bit more mental than usual on the steep bits. I think I saw several of the riders get a bit of crowd assistance at times.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 06, 2011, 02:01:01 pm
The spectators were a bit more mental than usual on the steep bits. I think I saw several of the riders get a bit of crowd assistance at times.

There used to be a lot of nationalism around the Vuelta in Fascist days, since Franco used it as a demonstration of his people's and system's superiority (which is why there were some very strange results and tactics until 1978, not to mention routine shoving of home riders - the book Viva la Vuelta that Ned and Matt were plugging gives chapter and verse on this).

Nowadays it's regionalism, with the Basques in particular and, it seems, the Asturians, going bananas when their local heroes go by, in the Vuelta and, in the case of the Basques, the TdF.

Compare the empty roads further south (but then would you stand around all day in 40C in the middle of nowhere to watch a bike race take 20 mins to go by, especially after an excess of aguardiente?
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 07, 2011, 09:22:36 am
On Twitter..
Quote
@bradwiggins
How do you play it? Conserve 3rd or throw everything at winning at the risk of loosing all? stupid or brave? What would you do?
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: JT on September 07, 2011, 10:01:01 am
On Twitter..
Quote
@bradwiggins
How do you play it? Conserve 3rd or throw everything at winning at the risk of loosing all? stupid or brave? What would you do?

He's 31 and of his few top level road wins the biggest so far is the Dauphine. He should definitely go for it.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 07, 2011, 11:43:21 am
Asking 100000 armchair DS's theor tactics for the vuelta... Methinks he likes a reaction rather than the content.

Froome: "I wouldn't want to be defending the red jersey on a stage finish like today" - Yeah, right. Given the option I'm sure he'd take first over second.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 07, 2011, 11:45:19 am
I'm assuming both Wiggo and Froome's comments were rhetorical, a thinly veiled statement of intent. Looks like it could be an exciting day's racing...

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 07, 2011, 11:56:21 am
The thing Team Sky have done really, really well is to build up a great relationship with the public. Through the Sky rides (and TV adverts featuring people just enjoying riding their bike, many helmetless) and the openness of the race team, it has built a strong following. I'd reckon their 'interactiveness' probably eclipses the majority of the rest of the world tour put together.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 07, 2011, 12:03:23 pm
True. It's great that much of what Wiggo posts on Twitter isn't cycling related, makes him seem more human, like "one of us".

Especially when it's things like getting rumbled by Cath for buying a scooter without telling her and trying to hide it.  ;D

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Justin(e) on September 08, 2011, 01:51:41 am
Sorry David, I find your 'guilt by association' argument hard to stomach. Presumably you condemn performances by another Saunier Duval rider (a Mr Millar) equally irredeemable?

The guilt by association works especially well for Millar.  He rode with dopers and therefore there was suspicion that he doped.  Lo and behold - he actually did!

Just because he is a Brit, most Brits seem to have this blind spot for him. Admirable loyalty, but he is still a doper.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 08, 2011, 09:49:54 am
Sorry David, I find your 'guilt by association' argument hard to stomach. Presumably you condemn performances by another Saunier Duval rider (a Mr Millar) equally irredeemable?

The guilt by association works especially well for Millar.  He rode with dopers and therefore there was suspicion that he doped.  Lo and behold - he actually did!



... and since then he's become a fierce anti-doping campaigner, put lots of his money into an anti-doping team and, so far as anyone can tell, ridden clean.

Nothing to do with blind spots - as far as anyone (including WADA and the UCI) can tell he's a changed man. Have you seen his TV interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013pkwf/HARDtalk_David_Millar_cyclist/#)?
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: mattc on September 08, 2011, 10:51:55 am
Just in from our GlassHalfFull correspondent:

We got through 2 weeks of this race before the topic was taken over by doping talk. Well done everyone!


[About Millar:
branding him a 'a doper' for life is rather like not letting Australians come back to england.]
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Justin(e) on September 08, 2011, 01:01:09 pm
Have you seen his TV interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013pkwf/HARDtalk_David_Millar_cyclist/#)?

I watched that and I thought it should have been called SOFTtalk.

All he did was blame others for his moral failures (he was angry at other people for allowing him to make a choice to cheat)

At no stage did he accept responsibility for his actions.

I remember cheering for him when he stages in the Vuelta and believed in him when he said that he was clean.  It was people like him who have done the most damage to cycling.  I hope he is clean now, but I also wish we had seen the back of him.  I applaud sky for not touching tainted riders like Millar.  Those teams that rush to sign cheaters when they come off their ban are bottom feeders.

My view extends to DS's as well.  Get rid of all the smelly ones like Riis, including Anderson who has a whiff about him as well.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 08, 2011, 05:16:34 pm
Have you seen his TV interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013pkwf/HARDtalk_David_Millar_cyclist/#)?

I watched that and I thought it should have been called SOFTtalk.

All he did was blame others for his moral failures (he was angry at other people for allowing him to make a choice to cheat)

At no stage did he accept responsibility for his actions.

Eh? Did you watch the same programme as me?

He gave himself up to TPTB and admitted doping - years ago. He did his time. He's back with an anti-doping team he half owns.

In the interview he repeated his admission of doping. He described the pressures to dope and admitted to succumbing to those pressures. He did not blame anyone else.

And the reason Shy aren't interested is perhaps because he owns half a rival team? And if they did it'd hardly be a "rush to sign cheaters when they come off their bans" since he was reinstated five years ago.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 08, 2011, 05:46:00 pm
Sorry, mattc - my fault for mentioning the Vaughters innuendo. But I'm assuming innuendo is all it is and just enjoying some fantastic bike racing, including some great performances by Cobo that have been a joy to watch.

Let's move on, shall we?

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 08, 2011, 06:15:25 pm
Sorry, mattc - my fault for mentioning the Vaughters innuendo. But I'm assuming innuendo is all it is and just enjoying some fantastic bike racing, including some great performances by Cobo that have been a joy to watch.

Let's move on, shall we?

d.

Yep.

Today's stage should have been a bit dull, but got very interesting.

What can anyone do to beat Cobo at this point? I've tried to think of something but come up with no answers.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: bobb on September 08, 2011, 09:52:21 pm
What can anyone do to beat Cobo at this point?

Well, I hope Sky at least try and go on the attack rather than just giving in. Chase down any breaks and keep Froome at the front so he at least has a chance of getting some bonus seconds in the sprints/climbs/stage finishes. It's unlikely, but there are still over a minutes worth of bonus seconds up for grabs!
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 08, 2011, 11:17:22 pm
What can anyone do to beat Cobo at this point?

Well, I hope Sky at least try and go on the attack rather than just giving in. Chase down any breaks and keep Froome at the front so he at least has a chance of getting some bonus seconds in the sprints/climbs/stage finishes. It's unlikely, but there are still over a minutes worth of bonus seconds up for grabs!

There's no point in attacking unless there's an opportunity to split the peloton in the wind. The remaining hills aren't hard enough to cause much damage (I've ridden up some of them without too much trouble!) and are all too far from the finish.

Much though I'd love to see a Sky team time trial from 10km out, it wouldn't work.

Just zooming off the front, even as a team, is pointless because most of the field (especially Geox, Rabobank, Leopard-Trek, Liquigas) will chase and catch you because your success would disadvantage their top riders.

And you won't get any help chasing down breaks unless one of the top five in GC are in them.

Like I said, i've thought about this.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: bobb on September 08, 2011, 11:20:25 pm
I know, but it will be more fun to watch if they try to do at least something, regardless of how futile it might be....
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 09, 2011, 12:04:46 am
Well, the run in to Bilbao might be hard enough to allow something. It is really the last realistic chance.
Title: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 09, 2011, 12:15:30 am
A split in the peloton is always possible if you keep the tempo high enough, especially if it's windy. Question is whether Geox are daft enough to allow themselves to get on the wrong side of a split...

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: LEE on September 09, 2011, 01:32:55 pm
Watching Cobo & Froome "man it out" on the final 19% ramp to the finish was superb, I was pedalling the sofa at one point.

I thought Froome had broken Cobo but Chapeau to him for grinding his way back to Froome's wheel and double Chapeau to Froome for honking past Cobo in the final 20 metres.

I'm surprised neither of them puked-up.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 09, 2011, 01:49:26 pm
Here's a vid so you can watch it again and again and again...

Vuelta stage 17 video (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7179624/christopher_froome_wins_vuelta_stage_17_from_universal_sports/)

Love the mental commentary.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: De Sisti on September 09, 2011, 02:15:29 pm
Watching Cobo & Froome "man it out" on the final 19% ramp to the finish was superb, I was pedalling the sofa at one point.

I thought Froome had broken Cobo but Chapeau to him for grinding his way back to Froome's wheel and double Chapeau to Froome for honking past Cobo in the final 20 metres.

I'm surprised neither of them puked-up.

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6184/6129618745_a82d18842d_m.jpg)
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Nuncio on September 09, 2011, 11:35:19 pm
Lovely.

Great video Citoyen and commentary, except they seemed to have expended their excitement before the final overtake.  That final overtake by Froome was quite risky wasn't it?  Or maybe he called out to Cobo: 'Coming through on the left'.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 09, 2011, 11:48:22 pm
Shame that Sky haven't managed to get Froome into red but it is fantastic that we have (barring accidents etc. ) two british riders on the podium of a Grand Tour.

Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Honest John on September 10, 2011, 10:24:55 am
Shame that Sky haven't managed to get Froome into red but it is fantastic that we have (barring accidents etc. ) two british riders on the podium of a Grand Tour.

+1. Bodes well for next season.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: citoyen on September 10, 2011, 10:09:36 pm
Itym a Belgian and a Kenyan. ;)

d.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 11, 2011, 12:14:38 am
Well, aren't we all ancient africans, and most are European immigrants. What is 20,000 years between friends?
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Tewdric on September 11, 2011, 08:49:45 pm
Second and third in a grand tour for UK riders.  This is a phenomenal achievement and one which would have been beyond belief a few short years ago.  The significance of this result is considerable.  Sky, as a team, are in the ascendancy and next season should be very interesting indeed.

Chris Froome and Bradley Wiggins have done this country proud.  Chapeau to both.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 11, 2011, 09:07:57 pm
Here's a vid so you can watch it again and again and again...

Vuelta stage 17 video (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7179624/christopher_froome_wins_vuelta_stage_17_from_universal_sports/)

Love the mental commentary.

d.
I've just watched this. Wow! And oof! for Cobo - he looks absolutely knackered at the end, he can barely crawl over the line.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: cuddy duck on September 16, 2011, 11:47:55 pm
Second and third in a grand tour for UK riders.  This is a phenomenal achievement and one which would have been beyond belief a few short years ago...
Except that a few short years ago Nicole Cooke won the Tour de France Féminin, twice, and the Giro d'Italia Femminile. The UK's best stage and one day racing cyclist ever.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: David Martin on September 17, 2011, 08:46:37 am
Whilst Nicole Cooke is an excellent cyclist, she has never won a Grand Tour (3 week race).
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Rhys W on September 17, 2011, 08:51:06 am
Because the UCI won't let women do a 3-week race, maybe?
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 18, 2011, 01:21:49 am
I'm sure I remember that the TdF feminin used to be a 3-week race back in the late 80s or early 90s. Could be wrong, but I seem to remember that.
Title: Re: Wiggins - third day in red!
Post by: cuddy duck on September 18, 2011, 01:42:25 pm
Whilst Nicole Cooke is an excellent cyclist, she has never won a Grand Tour (3 week race).
That's akin to saying Martina Navratilova isn't the best tennis player of all time and never won a Major tournament, because women's tennis is played over three sets.