Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: LEE on February 05, 2015, 08:55:37 am

Title: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LEE on February 05, 2015, 08:55:37 am
My Condor Fratello wheels are worn out, including my dynohub front.

Not surprising I suppose since I've been Audaxing on it since 2009 with the same wheels.

I was contemplating using my battery IXONs this time and buying some "sporty" wheels and tyres rather than the SPA Chrina / Dyno / Schwalbe marathon combination I've used for years.

I reckon a sporty setup would outweigh the disadvantage of carrying a pocketful of AA cells and dynohubs seem to be in a small minority.  A set of Fulcrum Racing 3 with Schwalbe "One" tyres appeals.

Should I break my dependency on dynopower and "bling" the Fratello?  The B&M IXON is a great light and I would be carrying two, the new one plus an old one (as backup/spare battery holder)
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: GrahamG on February 05, 2015, 09:53:20 am
I have a similar bike (Hewitt Alpine), and basically did what you're suggesting by blinging it up a couple of years ago. Went from 8 speed triple set up with Chrina rims, schmidt hub to compact + 10 speed top end kit with hope hubs/velocity A23's and using a hope vision vision 2 light. Was superb, wheels were the last things to be upgraded and definitely made the most difference, made the bike feel far more sprightly, made me want to ride that bit more 'enthusiastically' and basically increased the fun factor.

Life's too short to economise on a bike you'll be spending so much time with - I use the heavy winter fixed with dyno hub for the crappy weather mile eating for the 4-5 months when I can't be arsed to clean anything, but after that I like the fun factor being increased.

However, as a warning, this progressed to an even more fun carbon bling bike that I rewarded myself with after securing a permanent job for the first time in several years of uncertainty... so now I'll be the target of much piss taking as I audax on a cervelo ;D


*Edit - I'm not sure that dropping the dynamo is necessary with the newer/posher/lighter dynamos but on my standard schimdt it was nice to be shot of the weight and (albeit minimal) drag.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LEE on February 05, 2015, 09:59:36 am
I won't be taking the piss.

I'll be testing this on Audax duty at some point, with a view to taking it to PBP instead of the Fratello (it comes down to comfort but the Domane is way more comfortable than I expected and has become a "contender".  I won't be fitting a dynohub to this.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gPJ26P0lujE/U7wHmkd6oII/AAAAAAAADS0/uu52E6sNgdo/s1024/Domane%25201920x1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Somnolent on February 05, 2015, 11:48:53 am
I tend more towards keeping the dyno hub .... but with nice rims (H+Son Archetype) and fairly light tyres, certainly something less sluggish than Marathons.   
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Ivan on February 05, 2015, 12:38:58 pm
Note that if you are looking to reduce weight, you can get low spoke count dynohubs - I've now got a 24hole SONdelux based wheel (tubeless, natch) that comes in around 250g less than my old 32hole setup - time will tell how resilient it is. I hate faffing with batteries on long rides, so it's a no brainer for me which way to go.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: redfalo on February 06, 2015, 10:36:07 am
I hate faffing with batteries on long rides, so it's a no brainer for me which way to go.

+1

Note that if you are looking to reduce weight, you can get low spoke count dynohubs - I've now got a 24hole SONdelux based wheel (tubeless, natch) that comes in around 250g less than my old 32hole setup

Is this a special edition SONdeluxe or are some spoke holes just left unused?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: T42 on February 06, 2015, 10:47:41 am
^^^ says here  (http://www.nabendynamo.de/produkte/sondelux_en.html)you can get them down to 20.

I'm going to need a new front wheel by August...
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: redfalo on February 06, 2015, 11:43:27 am
hm.... I'm currently using a SON classic, which weighs 570g, and have been attracted by the lower weight of the SON delux (390g) for a while. If I can even save more weight by skimping on spokes (and probably using a lighter rim), this whole idea becomes even more tempting..........
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: wilkyboy on February 06, 2015, 11:53:45 am
Shutter Precision also go down to 20-spoke.  The SP-PV8 series is around 390g, the new SP-SV9 series is nearly 100g lighter and "golf-ball sized", apparently.

SP dynamos are very affordable at around £80 and their performance is, apart from minor details, on a par with SON.  I've had my PV8 for 4000km without any issues.  Back on t'other bike I've got a bulky Shimano, but not a lot of (affordable and practicable) choice over that side of the workshop.  Still, that has performed well over 7000km so far.

Having used both batteries and dynamos, I'm a huge dyno fan -- I can keep the Garmin topped up during the day and ride right through the night without worrying about when I last charged the cells.  I also carry a tiny battery front lamp and a backup battery for the GPS and phone on longer rides, just in case I have dyno issues (but none so far).
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: sojournermike on February 06, 2015, 12:01:16 pm
I'd be inclined to build up a wheel withh 24 spokes (CXray, 2 cross) and an SP dynamo. Rims could be variously - Pacenti SL23, Kinlin XC279 or something else that you like.

Then you can charge your garmin and phone from a usbwerk over the duration of PBB and longer rides. Alternative is carrying a big rechargeable battery pack. I've got a little 3200mAh battery for long days only, but the dybamo's good for commuting too.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: P Walsh on February 06, 2015, 12:13:58 pm
If using batteries, for "special " rides it is worth splashing out on the Lithium AAs. Not only do they last well, they are much lighter than regular disposables. And even for PBP you won't be needing a huge number.

For shorter (single night) rides the choice of battery lights is so good now that I think the case for dynamo lighting has been lost. (I have my umbrella up).
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Ivo on February 06, 2015, 12:19:36 pm
If using batteries, for "special " rides it is worth splashing out on the Lithium AAs. Not only do they last well, they are much lighter than regular disposables. And even for PBP you won't be needing a huge number.

For shorter (single night) rides the choice of battery lights is so good now that I think the case for dynamo lighting has been lost. (I have my umbrella up).

It all depends on your preferences and riding style now. I've tried doing a 1200 with battery lights 3 years ago (Vologda-Onega-Ladoga) but I switched back to dynamo's for the next one. While the light output was good enough for northern Europe in july, the hassle obtaining enough batteries was too much of a drawback. I rather prefer trhe simple certainty that the dynamo will keep on working.
What is very important is also the amount of hours you usually spend in darkness. If you're fast and sleep a lot at night, battery lights could be your choice. If you're a slow climber and sleep 1-2 hours a night, you'll need maximum light output (you don't want to  faff in the descents) and absolute certinty that they'll work. So then a dynamo light is the way to go.
I'll be starting with a dynohub again. I bought a new one this winter, I've settled for a rhytm of one new dynohuyb every 2nd PBP. The old one then is used for one of my other bikes.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Ivan on February 06, 2015, 12:41:04 pm
(http://audaxclubhackney.co.uk/ivan/front_wheel.jpg)

I got everything from bike24.com: 24-hole SONdelux, CX-Ray spokes and Stan's A340 rim. First wheel I've built, which is partly why I went for the radial spoking for simplicity - according to the specs the SONdelux supports this, before anyone asks.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jsabine on February 06, 2015, 12:53:55 pm
Isn't the SONdelux the one designed for small wheels? Fewer magnets, so less output on a big wheel: fine for LED lights, but might not be enough for charging too.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Feline on February 06, 2015, 01:14:09 pm
Assuming I can get fit enough to qualify and ride it, it will definitely be with my SON Deluxe hub again, and Edelux light. I've just bought the new Son dynamo rear light which is a truly beautiful and tiny piece of engineering  :D

It isn't just the faffage of swapping batteries. For me it's the ability to keep riding at dusk and the light come on automatically. I find it annoying having to stop and switch on rear lights on longer rides. I often find myself either turning on battery lights before it gets dark to avoid having to stop and wasting the batteries (maybe even annoy other riders), or riding for a few miles thinking 'i really must stop and put my lights on soon'. The dynamo rear light comes on with the front light which is on a daylight sensor, or I can turn on while still riding. And I never have to turn round and try to peer at my rear light just to check it's really working and hasn't gone flat.

Last time I used the hub to charge the garmin and a battery pack during the day, then the power the lights at night. However now it's possible to get very small lightweight battery packs like the Technet, I won't bother with the dynamo charging thing this time around. I used 3 5000mVwhatever Technets on LEL to charge the Garmin and phone, and never needed to use an electricity supply. The dynamo hub charging during the day I consider to be an unnecessary (although tiny) increase in drag and slight faff I don't need to do anymore. I would use it if touring in the middle of nowhere for a month though.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: rabbit on February 06, 2015, 01:29:30 pm
Interesting to hear about the 20 and 24 spoke options.  Didn't even know you can get a SON with less than 32.

I am just having a 32 spoke dynamo built up for PBP/600s etc and some 28 spoke chris king hubs (front and back) for general use.  I personally would have gone for many less spokes - like 20, but the wheel builder pointed out that, if a spoke fails with less than 28 you may not be able to continue to ride on the wheel, but 28 or more and you can at least get to the next control to get it fixed

Hope I have done the right thing, it is a VERY expensive wheelset  :o
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Fab Foodie on February 06, 2015, 01:35:46 pm
I tend more towards keeping the dyno hub .... but with nice rims (H+Son Archetype) and fairly light tyres, certainly something less sluggish than Marathons.
I've done this with Vittoria Open Pave 27c and they're ace and look good too.  Th rear uses a VO Grand Cru touring hub, again a great piece of kit.
This is on my winter/distance/Audax bike.  I've become an overnight dynamo convert.  The light output with the Phillips saferide bargain light is fabulous compared to Magicshine clones and to just grab the bike and go without battery faffage etc is great.

Next year the summer bike needs new wheels ..... maybe  a Son deluxe with low spoke count ....
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Feline on February 06, 2015, 01:43:57 pm
Interesting to hear about the 20 and 24 spoke options.  Didn't even know you can get a SON with less than 32.

I am just having a 32 spoke dynamo built up for PBP/600s etc and some 28 spoke chris king hubs (front and back) for general use.  I personally would have gone for many less spokes - like 20, but the wheel builder pointed out that, if a spoke fails with less than 28 you may not be able to continue to ride on the wheel, but 28 or more and you can at least get to the next control to get it fixed

Hope I have done the right thing, it is a VERY expensive wheelset  :o

You've definitely done the right thing, particularly if your going to ride qualifiers anywhere like the middle of wales where you don't want a bike part failure to be ride-ending! From what I've heard you're fast enough that 32 spokes rather than 20 isn't going to make much difference other than give you reliability  ;D
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 06, 2015, 02:28:22 pm
Feline - you can get battery (rear) lights with daylight/motion sensor. Not too bulky either - remind me next time you're at the Grain Barge and I'll show you!

(The only time I've wished I had a dynamo was actually in daylight. It was an ACB DIY 200 in November, drizzle and mist in the morning, others had their lights on but I knew that, having used some before the start, if I put mine on then I'd not have enough battery left when it got to real night. Of course, this is partly a result of being slow.  :-\ )
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on February 06, 2015, 02:46:53 pm
Interesting to hear about the 20 and 24 spoke options.  Didn't even know you can get a SON with less than 32.

I am just having a 32 spoke dynamo built up for PBP/600s etc and some 28 spoke chris king hubs (front and back) for general use.  I personally would have gone for many less spokes - like 20, but the wheel builder pointed out that, if a spoke fails with less than 28 you may not be able to continue to ride on the wheel, but 28 or more and you can at least get to the next control to get it fixed

Hope I have done the right thing, it is a VERY expensive wheelset  :o

very topical thread all this for me as I`m considering also a dynamo front hub even though have a goodly set of ebay Chinese lights ::-)

Personally @ 85 kg I would not consider less than 28 builds, although built well enough probably OK. Quality of build seems critical--I rode a set 28 CX ray / Tune lightweight wheels around appalling roads in Corsica, including a 10km no better than forest track  and they stayed perfect. Very well built wheels indeed have never gone out (apart from smashing rim on a pothole, even then rideable home)

Who`s building your front dynohub ?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Ivan on February 06, 2015, 02:54:24 pm
Isn't the SONdelux the one designed for small wheels? Fewer magnets, so less output on a big wheel: fine for LED lights, but might not be enough for charging too.

My understanding is that the difference with the SONdelux is the speed at which it reaches the rated output. I find it's fine on the flat at randonneur pace & on climbs they all cut out anyway, so I usually try to disconnect the GPS to preempt it deciding to power itself off.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: rabbit on February 06, 2015, 03:13:18 pm
Interesting to hear about the 20 and 24 spoke options.  Didn't even know you can get a SON with less than 32.

I am just having a 32 spoke dynamo built up for PBP/600s etc and some 28 spoke chris king hubs (front and back) for general use.  I personally would have gone for many less spokes - like 20, but the wheel builder pointed out that, if a spoke fails with less than 28 you may not be able to continue to ride on the wheel, but 28 or more and you can at least get to the next control to get it fixed

Hope I have done the right thing, it is a VERY expensive wheelset  :o

very topical thread all this for me as I`m considering also a dynamo front hub even though have a goodly set of ebay Chinese lights ::-)

Personally @ 85 kg I would not consider less than 28 builds, although built well enough probably OK. Quality of build seems critical--I rode a set 28 CX ray / Tune lightweight wheels around appalling roads in Corsica, including a 10km no better than forest track  and they stayed perfect. Very well built wheels indeed have never gone out (apart from smashing rim on a pothole, even then rideable home)

Who`s building your front dynohub ?

Mike at http://wheels.23mm.co.uk/  :thumbsup:

I am only light but Mike was adamant that 28 was the absolute minimum and that the dynamo would be 32.  I have just gone through another factory set (bearings and rear rim) in 8 months.  Although they are still true despite having bugger-all spokes and me bashing them on various off-road routes including bridleways and unsurfaced byways rather too regularly. 

The thing with being light (53kg) is every extra ounce is a much bigger percentage of my bodyweight.  1 spoke for me, is like two for a 106 kg guy! Of course, the odd extra spoke doesn't weigh a lot, but an extra 16+ on rolling weight....well, let just hope it's not significant. 
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Feline on February 06, 2015, 03:45:33 pm
Feline - you can get battery (rear) lights with daylight/motion sensor. Not too bulky either - remind me next time you're at the Grain Barge and I'll show you!

(The only time I've wished I had a dynamo was actually in daylight. It was an ACB DIY 200 in November, drizzle and mist in the morning, others had their lights on but I knew that, having used some before the start, if I put mine on then I'd not have enough battery left when it got to real night. Of course, this is partly a result of being slow.  :-\ )

I've had 2 different brands of those, they are unreliable and you never know whether they have come on or not while you're riding along!
The one I have I use as a backup light now but wouldn't rely on it. Its been known to turn off at traffic lights because it's decided I'm not moving ....
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: sojournermike on February 06, 2015, 03:51:30 pm
Interesting to hear about the 20 and 24 spoke options.  Didn't even know you can get a SON with less than 32.

I am just having a 32 spoke dynamo built up for PBP/600s etc and some 28 spoke chris king hubs (front and back) for general use.  I personally would have gone for many less spokes - like 20, but the wheel builder pointed out that, if a spoke fails with less than 28 you may not be able to continue to ride on the wheel, but 28 or more and you can at least get to the next control to get it fixed

Hope I have done the right thing, it is a VERY expensive wheelset  :o

very topical thread all this for me as I`m considering also a dynamo front hub even though have a goodly set of ebay Chinese lights ::-)

Personally @ 85 kg I would not consider less than 28 builds, although built well enough probably OK. Quality of build seems critical--I rode a set 28 CX ray / Tune lightweight wheels around appalling roads in Corsica, including a 10km no better than forest track  and they stayed perfect. Very well built wheels indeed have never gone out (apart from smashing rim on a pothole, even then rideable home)

Who`s building your front dynohub ?

Mike at http://wheels.23mm.co.uk/  :thumbsup:

I am only light but Mike was adamant that 28 was the absolute minimum and that the dynamo would be 32.  I have just gone through another factory set (bearings and rear rim) in 8 months.  Although they are still true despite having bugger-all spokes and me bashing them on various off-road routes including bridleways and unsurfaced byways rather too regularly. 

The thing with being light (53kg) is every extra ounce is a much bigger percentage of my bodyweight.  1 spoke for me, is like two for a 106 kg guy! Of course, the odd extra spoke doesn't weigh a lot, but an extra 16+ on rolling weight....well, let just hope it's not significant.


Impressed you've been through a set of factory wheels so quickly. Particularly at your lightness.

The extra weight of the spokes may make it feel a bit less spritely, but it will hold speed just as well and probably make littel difference if you don't accelerate all the time. There's theoretically a bit more air resistance as well, but unless you're properly quick it's likely not a big issue.

My 'long' wheels are 32/32 spoke, but I'm considerably more than 53kgs - see weight reports if you really want to know.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 06, 2015, 04:16:39 pm
Feline - you can get battery (rear) lights with daylight/motion sensor. Not too bulky either - remind me next time you're at the Grain Barge and I'll show you!

(The only time I've wished I had a dynamo was actually in daylight. It was an ACB DIY 200 in November, drizzle and mist in the morning, others had their lights on but I knew that, having used some before the start, if I put mine on then I'd not have enough battery left when it got to real night. Of course, this is partly a result of being slow.  :-\ )

I've had 2 different brands of those, they are unreliable and you never know whether they have come on or not while you're riding along!
The one I have I use as a backup light now but wouldn't rely on it. Its been known to turn off at traffic lights because it's decided I'm not moving ....
Are you referring to the Spanninga Pixeo? I've not used that one, but have only had problems with a different model of Spanninga when the batteries were low. The one I have now is a B&M Flat S (sounds like a Schoenberg composition) which is neater looking than it sounds. Only had it since Wednesday so can't comment on reliability.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: rabbit on February 06, 2015, 04:17:21 pm
Interesting to hear about the 20 and 24 spoke options.  Didn't even know you can get a SON with less than 32.

I am just having a 32 spoke dynamo built up for PBP/600s etc and some 28 spoke chris king hubs (front and back) for general use.  I personally would have gone for many less spokes - like 20, but the wheel builder pointed out that, if a spoke fails with less than 28 you may not be able to continue to ride on the wheel, but 28 or more and you can at least get to the next control to get it fixed

Hope I have done the right thing, it is a VERY expensive wheelset  :o

very topical thread all this for me as I`m considering also a dynamo front hub even though have a goodly set of ebay Chinese lights ::-)

Personally @ 85 kg I would not consider less than 28 builds, although built well enough probably OK. Quality of build seems critical--I rode a set 28 CX ray / Tune lightweight wheels around appalling roads in Corsica, including a 10km no better than forest track  and they stayed perfect. Very well built wheels indeed have never gone out (apart from smashing rim on a pothole, even then rideable home)

Who`s building your front dynohub ?

Mike at http://wheels.23mm.co.uk/  :thumbsup:

I am only light but Mike was adamant that 28 was the absolute minimum and that the dynamo would be 32.  I have just gone through another factory set (bearings and rear rim) in 8 months.  Although they are still true despite having bugger-all spokes and me bashing them on various off-road routes including bridleways and unsurfaced byways rather too regularly. 

The thing with being light (53kg) is every extra ounce is a much bigger percentage of my bodyweight.  1 spoke for me, is like two for a 106 kg guy! Of course, the odd extra spoke doesn't weigh a lot, but an extra 16+ on rolling weight....well, let just hope it's not significant.


Impressed you've been through a set of factory wheels so quickly. Particularly at your lightness.

The extra weight of the spokes may make it feel a bit less spritely, but it will hold speed just as well and probably make littel difference if you don't accelerate all the time. There's theoretically a bit more air resistance as well, but unless you're properly quick it's likely not a big issue.

My 'long' wheels are 32/32 spoke, but I'm considerably more than 53kgs - see weight reports if you really want to know.

It's riding the mud covered gritty icy lanes through the winter and the big mileage in the summer that done it, plus I do tend to forget to slow down on off road bits.  I went through some mavic cosmics within 6 months before these. 

I hope they don't lack sprightliness.  I also spend the vast majority of my time climbing steep hills.  I hope they aren't heavy on those either. 

Serious buyers panic now.  It's all my savings on three wheels....if they feel slow compared to a £200 factory set I shall be absolutely gutted. 
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: sojournermike on February 06, 2015, 04:59:29 pm
Interesting to hear about the 20 and 24 spoke options.  Didn't even know you can get a SON with less than 32.

I am just having a 32 spoke dynamo built up for PBP/600s etc and some 28 spoke chris king hubs (front and back) for general use.  I personally would have gone for many less spokes - like 20, but the wheel builder pointed out that, if a spoke fails with less than 28 you may not be able to continue to ride on the wheel, but 28 or more and you can at least get to the next control to get it fixed

Hope I have done the right thing, it is a VERY expensive wheelset  :o

very topical thread all this for me as I`m considering also a dynamo front hub even though have a goodly set of ebay Chinese lights ::-)

Personally @ 85 kg I would not consider less than 28 builds, although built well enough probably OK. Quality of build seems critical--I rode a set 28 CX ray / Tune lightweight wheels around appalling roads in Corsica, including a 10km no better than forest track  and they stayed perfect. Very well built wheels indeed have never gone out (apart from smashing rim on a pothole, even then rideable home)

Who`s building your front dynohub ?

Mike at http://wheels.23mm.co.uk/  :thumbsup:

I am only light but Mike was adamant that 28 was the absolute minimum and that the dynamo would be 32.  I have just gone through another factory set (bearings and rear rim) in 8 months.  Although they are still true despite having bugger-all spokes and me bashing them on various off-road routes including bridleways and unsurfaced byways rather too regularly. 

The thing with being light (53kg) is every extra ounce is a much bigger percentage of my bodyweight.  1 spoke for me, is like two for a 106 kg guy! Of course, the odd extra spoke doesn't weigh a lot, but an extra 16+ on rolling weight....well, let just hope it's not significant.


Impressed you've been through a set of factory wheels so quickly. Particularly at your lightness.

The extra weight of the spokes may make it feel a bit less spritely, but it will hold speed just as well and probably make littel difference if you don't accelerate all the time. There's theoretically a bit more air resistance as well, but unless you're properly quick it's likely not a big issue.

My 'long' wheels are 32/32 spoke, but I'm considerably more than 53kgs - see weight reports if you really want to know.

It's riding the mud covered gritty icy lanes through the winter and the big mileage in the summer that done it, plus I do tend to forget to slow down on off road bits.  I went through some mavic cosmics within 6 months before these. 

I hope they don't lack sprightliness.  I also spend the vast majority of my time climbing steep hills.  I hope they aren't heavy on those either. 

Serious buyers panic now.  It's all my savings on three wheels....if they feel slow compared to a £200 factory set I shall be absolutely gutted.


I suspect you'll be fine. The rim choice will make a bigger difference.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: rabbit on February 06, 2015, 05:12:01 pm
Ok good  :thumbsup:

My friend has been telling me about all the wheel failures he has seen....and how 20-24 spokes is not the way to go if I don't want a catastrophe in the the middle of nowhere.  That also made me panic a little less as I do spend the vast majority of my road riding on my own in the middle of nowhere. 
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Somnolent on February 06, 2015, 05:12:35 pm
Interesting to hear about the 20 and 24 spoke options.  Didn't even know you can get a SON with less than 32.

I am just having a 32 spoke dynamo built up for PBP/600s etc and some 28 spoke chris king hubs (front and back) for general use.  I personally would have gone for many less spokes - like 20, but the wheel builder pointed out that, if a spoke fails with less than 28 you may not be able to continue to ride on the wheel, but 28 or more and you can at least get to the next control to get it fixed

Hope I have done the right thing, it is a VERY expensive wheelset  :o

very topical thread all this for me as I`m considering also a dynamo front hub even though have a goodly set of ebay Chinese lights ::-)

Personally @ 85 kg I would not consider less than 28 builds, although built well enough probably OK. Quality of build seems critical--I rode a set 28 CX ray / Tune lightweight wheels around appalling roads in Corsica, including a 10km no better than forest track  and they stayed perfect. Very well built wheels indeed have never gone out (apart from smashing rim on a pothole, even then rideable home)

Who`s building your front dynohub ?

Mike at http://wheels.23mm.co.uk/  :thumbsup:

I am only light but Mike was adamant that 28 was the absolute minimum and that the dynamo would be 32.  I have just gone through another factory set (bearings and rear rim) in 8 months.  Although they are still true despite having bugger-all spokes and me bashing them on various off-road routes including bridleways and unsurfaced byways rather too regularly. 

The thing with being light (53kg) is every extra ounce is a much bigger percentage of my bodyweight.  1 spoke for me, is like two for a 106 kg guy! Of course, the odd extra spoke doesn't weigh a lot, but an extra 16+ on rolling weight....well, let just hope it's not significant.


Impressed you've been through a set of factory wheels so quickly. Particularly at your lightness.

The extra weight of the spokes may make it feel a bit less spritely, but it will hold speed just as well and probably make littel difference if you don't accelerate all the time. There's theoretically a bit more air resistance as well, but unless you're properly quick it's likely not a big issue.

My 'long' wheels are 32/32 spoke, but I'm considerably more than 53kgs - see weight reports if you really want to know.

It's riding the mud covered gritty icy lanes through the winter and the big mileage in the summer that done it, plus I do tend to forget to slow down on off road bits.  I went through some mavic cosmics within 6 months before these. 

I hope they don't lack sprightliness.  I also spend the vast majority of my time climbing steep hills.  I hope they aren't heavy on those either. 

Serious buyers panic now.  It's all my savings on three wheels....if they feel slow compared to a £200 factory set I shall be absolutely gutted.


I suspect you'll be fine. The rim choice will make a bigger difference.

And the extra spokage may give you a little more stiffness (theoretically)  not that you'll notice at 53 kg

Even though it is rotating weight the difference will be less significant than that from a full bidon as against an empty one.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on February 06, 2015, 05:49:31 pm
Ok good  :thumbsup:

My friend has been telling me about all the wheel failures he has seen....and how 20-24 spokes is not the way to go if I don't want a catastrophe in the the middle of nowhere.  That also made me panic a little less as I do spend the vast majority of my road riding on my own in the middle of nowhere.

I abandoned factory low spoke count wheels when a front spoke in a 16 spoke radial EC90 wheel broke---wheel went so out of true it wouldn`t rotate in front forks, let alone brake clearance.  :o  They were a great fast lively set of wheels BUT not worth risking `out in wilds` so from then on have used handbuilt 28 or 32. Probably a little less lively feeling but so so much more reliable and if have breakage spoke will still get me home  :thumbsup:

My `best` Tune / CXP 33 wheels feel very lively tightly laced on 28 CX rays (Harry Rowland built) and as good as EC90 without worries; so yes you`ve done right thing  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: wilkyboy on February 06, 2015, 06:32:24 pm
Feline - you can get battery (rear) lights with daylight/motion sensor. Not too bulky either - remind me next time you're at the Grain Barge and I'll show you!

(The only time I've wished I had a dynamo was actually in daylight. It was an ACB DIY 200 in November, drizzle and mist in the morning, others had their lights on but I knew that, having used some before the start, if I put mine on then I'd not have enough battery left when it got to real night. Of course, this is partly a result of being slow.  :-\ )

I've had 2 different brands of those, they are unreliable and you never know whether they have come on or not while you're riding along!
The one I have I use as a backup light now but wouldn't rely on it. Its been known to turn off at traffic lights because it's decided I'm not moving ....

I use a Cateye motion-sensing battery light up high and I've blocked the light sensor, so it thinks it's always dark -- it's on when I'm moving; 30secs to switch off.  I have a dyno rear too with standlight functionality of about four minutes or something silly.  And a little pulsing thingy between them, because I have quite a long seat post -- that's on when I switch it on.  The Cateye does tend to switch itself off when the batteries are low, but it does take a month or more of riding to get to this point.

The neat thing about both the Cateye and the B&M dyno rear is that both of them are Euro-legal reflectors, as well as large and just bright enough to be seen without blinding anyone, although now that I think about it I did have to cover over the centre LED with some tape, because that centre LEDs just too darned bright compared to the two LEDs on each side; it's a nice even light now. </nerd-alert>
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Carlosfandango on February 06, 2015, 06:36:46 pm
Ok good  :thumbsup:

My friend has been telling me about all the wheel failures he has seen....and how 20-24 spokes is not the way to go if I don't want a catastrophe in the the middle of nowhere.  That also made me panic a little less as I do spend the vast majority of my road riding on my own in the middle of nowhere.

I wouldn't worry too much, I've been banging about on 20/24 spoke wheels from Spring until Christmas and they're still true.

The wheels weigh 1260g and unfortunately I weigh 86Kg.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Feline on February 06, 2015, 09:17:48 pm
Feline - you can get battery (rear) lights with daylight/motion sensor. Not too bulky either - remind me next time you're at the Grain Barge and I'll show you!

(The only time I've wished I had a dynamo was actually in daylight. It was an ACB DIY 200 in November, drizzle and mist in the morning, others had their lights on but I knew that, having used some before the start, if I put mine on then I'd not have enough battery left when it got to real night. Of course, this is partly a result of being slow.  :-\ )

I've had 2 different brands of those, they are unreliable and you never know whether they have come on or not while you're riding along!
The one I have I use as a backup light now but wouldn't rely on it. Its been known to turn off at traffic lights because it's decided I'm not moving ....
Are you referring to the Spanninga Pixeo? I've not used that one, but have only had problems with a different model of Spanninga when the batteries were low. The one I have now is a B&M Flat S (sounds like a Schoenberg composition) which is neater looking than it sounds. Only had it since Wednesday so can't comment on reliability.

I've had 2 Pixeos, another mudguarded mounted brand, and a cateye that were all supposedly 'senso' when light levels fell. Not one of them proved reliable, especially in the wet. Given, I have pushed them beyond what a normal commuting light might be expected to withstand ....

Believe me, I have an entire storage container at home full of not fit for purpose and discarded lights. I have come back to the reliable dynamo solution .... and I am vehemently against cables on my Ti frame  ;D
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Frank9755 on February 07, 2015, 06:49:31 pm
hm.... I'm currently using a SON classic, which weighs 570g, and have been attracted by the lower weight of the SON delux (390g) for a while. If I can even save more weight by skimping on spokes (and probably using a lighter rim), this whole idea becomes even more tempting..........

Be careful!  A broken spoke on a low spoke-count wheel could end your ride. 
It's a big risk for a tiny speed gain which also involves sacrificing some comfort with a stiffer wheel.  After PBP you hear an awful lot of people complaining about numb hands but I've yet to hear anyone say they wish they'd got round 10 minutes quicker by skimping on half a dozen spokes!

I guess dynamos is a bit of a religious thing - people either believe in them or don't - but I'd be very surprised if it really would be faster to cut back on spokes whilst having a dynamo nibbling away at your power output the whole time. 

I'll be using the same wheels as last time: Ultegra hubs / 32h.  I'll also most likely use the same lights as last time: two Hope Vision 1s.  In 2011 I rode through two complete nights, plus a few hours on a third.  I took one spare set of batteries with me and changed them half way, because I had them, but all three sets had power left when I finished.   
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LMT on February 08, 2015, 11:50:27 am
Batteries for me. Have a Fenix BC30 which throws out more then enough light to ride at speed on any road. Battery life on low power is 20hrs, and low power is more then sufficient for riding at night. I think that dyno hubs are a bit of a faff and can restrict you on what you want out of a wheel.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: falcon on February 08, 2015, 02:49:38 pm
I'll be using battery lights x 4 along with a separate charging pack. As for wheels,  I weigh 90 kg and used to break spokes all the time using standard 36's. I switched to straight pull mavic ksyriums which have a lot fewer spokes and have been 100% reliable.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Delph Cyclist on February 08, 2015, 08:26:29 pm
I'll be using a rechargable Exposure light which ought to be enough for the whole of PBP (it was plenty for LEL) but once it's flat could be a ride-stopper.  I would like to take a battery light as a backup, empty but buying batteries along the way as required.  The Fenix BC30 looks good but how easy can CR123A batteries be purchased in France?  Would an AA or AAA light be a better bet?

Just looking at the Fenix site, I see that their Fenix E41 uses 4 x AA for 400 lumens at 4 hours 45 mins so that might be the way to go.  It would be handy to compare it with the Hope One which uses 4 x AA at about 3 hours.

I've already learnt "Je voudrais quatre piles d'AA s'il vous plait"

Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: simonp on February 08, 2015, 08:41:53 pm
I took delivery of an Edelux II and was all set to try it out on the Tewkesbury 200k but it has an annoying fault  - there is too much sealant around the rear light connector to make a reliable connection that will be secure against vibration so I had to put the old light back on and it will have to go back.

The advent of this light puts me firmly back in the Dynamo camp as long as I get one that works!
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jsabine on February 08, 2015, 11:16:04 pm
how easy can CR123A batteries be purchased in France?  Would an AA or AAA light be a better bet?

Not sure I'd like to track down CR123As in a hurry in this country ...

I mean, the Maplin at the bottom of my road probably sells them, and maybe Boots or Asda, but a village shop in Essex or an all-night garage? I'd stick to AAs, carry a set of lithiums which would mean I didn't have to actually buy some when I realised I needed them NOW, and use on-the-road purchases to restock.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: zigzag on February 08, 2015, 11:26:50 pm
i remember when riding at night i was cought up by several groups where most riders had proper lights. i switched off my main light and only used a backup "be seen" light as the road was well lit anyway. one set (of 4) of aa's saw me through the ride. keep it simple - always works!
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: The Seldom Killer on February 09, 2015, 01:11:40 pm
I'm going with my usual setup. 2x Smart 1/2 rear lights and the fibre flare if it still works as the rear light option. 1 set of fresh batteries in these should last the whole event. On the front I'll have a small CatEye for group, dusk, streetlight riding and the Hope Vision 1 for anything darker.

France isn't a difficult place to track down AA or AAA batteries. As I don't have a dynohub at the moment it's the option that makes the most sense in my current financial situation. As long as I make an effort to sleep when it's dark the CatEye will definitely see me through and will be enough to be legal all the time. As long as I remain disciplined then I should be able to get through the first two nights on one set for the Hope and then I just need to remember to pick up spares before the thrid night. As a back up I'll carry a pair of AA and a pair of AAA. The Cateye only takes one AA battery so realistically I should never be without sufficient light.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: SR Steve on February 09, 2015, 11:45:03 pm
I bought two second hand Specialized Roubaix Elite bikes recently and have set the first one up with mudguards and dynamo lights, whilst the second is left as a pure road bike. I have hardly ridden the first one as it is like new and I am saving it for the better weather. I built the front wheel using a Mavic Open Pro rim on a Shimano 3N80 hub dynamo with 32 DT Swiss spokes built 2 cross. I have a similar wheel on my usual Dawes Audax Supreme, but with a Mavic CXP33 rim and this has been excellent. I also have the same Luxos U front light with USB outlet, but on the rear I have one of these http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sport-DirectTM-Bicycle-Reflector-Mudguard/dp/B009HSJXYU/ref=sr_1_49? rather than the B&M Seculite on the Dawes. Instead of fitting the rear light to the mudguard, I made an aluminium bracket to fix it to the brake bolt.

I rode the second Roubaix back to Leicester from Surrey as a DIY 200, mostly on a lanes and mostly in the dark using the Smart battery lights that I usually use as back up lights. I found these to be adequate and better than any lights that I have used on previous PBPs, although nowhere near as good as the Luxos front lights.

It would seem sensible to use the dynamo Roubaix for the PBP as the Luxos front light is brilliant and I can run my GPS and charge my phone off it. I'm so used to riding a heavy steel bike with a hub dynamo, rack and big bag that I can't feel the drag from the dynamo on the Roubaix. I'll try both bikes out on the qualifiers though and if the battery Roubaix seems more spritely I might be tempted to use it for the PBP instead of the more sensible dynamo option :demon:
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: citoyen on February 17, 2015, 02:20:46 pm
I'm in a similar position to LEE - my SON wheel needs a new rim and I'm debating whether or not to rebuild it in time for PBP. Also I'm not generally very happy with the IQ Cyo I've been using - very temperamental, possibly faulty, so I'd be looking at replacing that too (would be a good excuse to upgrade to something like an Edelux, I guess).

Anyway, I got to wondering how to quantify lighting needs for PBP. Looking at sunrise/sunset times and doing some back-of-a-fag-packet sums factoring in sleep time, I reckon I'll need around 25 hours of light. Does that sound right?

Also, how much light do you actually need? The possible alternative to the dynamo setup that I'm considering is a Cateye Volt 700. If I can get away with using it on the low power setting (100 lumens) most of the time and keep it topped up using a USB power pack, it may well be sufficient.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Ivo on February 17, 2015, 05:07:19 pm
Especially during PBP I'd go for maximum lighting. There are a lot of fast twisty descents in wooded area's. The kind of descent where your lights limit your descending speed. You can save a lot of time/gain valuable sleeping time if your lights are good enough for your usual descending speed.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: SR Steve on February 18, 2015, 12:03:06 am
It's worth having at least 2 front and 2 rear lights in case 1 fails. I use a Smart Lunar 25 as a back up light as it has a 14 hour run time on 2 AA batteries (longer on lithiums) and it gives a good enough light for 90% of the PBP night riding. (I have managed the whole thing on much worse lights.) They are currently only £6.99 at http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/smart-lunar-25-lux-front-light-white-id64040.html?gclid=COnRrcuO6sMCFcsBwwod4wYAlA or £9.99 for a black one.

You could have a brighter front light as well and only switch it on for fast descents or use a good quality head torch. I used a cheap Cree light as a main beam last time.

I've still not decided whether to use my hub dynamo or not yet :-\  I'll try it out on the qualifiers to make sure that the light quality is worth the drag.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: wilkyboy on February 18, 2015, 12:57:01 am
I've still not decided whether to use my hub dynamo or not yet :-\  I'll try it out on the qualifiers to make sure that the light quality is worth the drag.

Is the drag worth worrying about?  http://mccraw.co.uk/hub-dynamo-friction/
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: mattc on February 18, 2015, 07:03:05 am
Especially during PBP I'd go for maximum lighting. There are a lot of fast twisty descents in wooded area's. The kind of descent where your lights limit your descending speed. You can save a lot of time/gain valuable sleeping time if your lights are good enough for your usual descending speed.
I know lighting requirements are very personal, so it's pointless arguing about these things ....

HOWEVER I cannot agree that PBP has roads that require better lighting than most UK rides. Actually the exact opposite.

There are no steep descents (hardly surprising -  as there is no steep climbing either  :D )

The surfaces are immaculate compared to the UK. And the Chevron signs are ultra-reliable for sharp corners on rural roads.

(The small towns DO have some issues - but even then, the UK's are far worse. And the towns are well-lit. Watch for the cobbles - they are mainly down the middle of the road!)

SO: any lighting that gets you through a UK night-ride is adequate. You just need to be sure of 3x the time requirement (or maybe 4x for many of us?).
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on February 18, 2015, 07:05:40 am
I've still not decided whether to use my hub dynamo or not yet :-\  I'll try it out on the qualifiers to make sure that the light quality is worth the drag.

Is the drag worth worrying about?  http://mccraw.co.uk/hub-dynamo-friction/

I suppose whether drag and minute / hour time loss importance depends upon whether you`re a full value rider also !!

Still undecided....but one issue I`d like feedback on is the very close flange / flange distance with some small hub dynamos, eg the SP types. I would definitely have  a disc dynohub  wheel and having seen the torsional forces deflecting a normal disc front wheel---ie I can see it being pulled over in the forks when brakes applied---wonder about the strength of a `flat` dished wheel. Indeed I note that Harry Rowland, who  IMO is a very good builder will not use these close flange hubs . End of!

So I`d probably have a 100gm + extra weight penalty on the hub which I think would need to be a SON Klassik or 28 as Shimano, AFAIK, don`t do 3W disc dynohubs.

Which then puts the dynohub / battery equation back in favour batteries using 2 x battery lights and back up batteries (ebay 1000lmn light used on medium + 2 x 4400mAh packs and a Fluxient `1000` lmn 18650 powered back up with 3 x 18650 batteries would (with luck) give me 20 hours useable lights)
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Somnolent on February 18, 2015, 12:08:20 pm
as Shimano, AFAIK, don`t do 3W disc dynohubs.

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-deore-lx-dh-t675-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:591997
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LEE on February 18, 2015, 12:13:57 pm
Especially during PBP I'd go for maximum lighting. There are a lot of fast twisty descents in wooded area's. The kind of descent where your lights limit your descending speed. You can save a lot of time/gain valuable sleeping time if your lights are good enough for your usual descending speed.
I know lighting requirements are very personal, so it's pointless arguing about these things ....

HOWEVER I cannot agree that PBP has roads that require better lighting than most UK rides. Actually the exact opposite.

There are no steep descents (hardly surprising -  as there is no steep climbing either  :D )

The surfaces are immaculate compared to the UK. And the Chevron signs are ultra-reliable for sharp corners on rural roads.

(The small towns DO have some issues - but even then, the UK's are far worse. And the towns are well-lit. Watch for the cobbles - they are mainly down the middle of the road!)

SO: any lighting that gets you through a UK night-ride is adequate. You just need to be sure of 3x the time requirement (or maybe 4x for many of us?).

Agreed, I don't remember any particularly demanding descents, certainly not as demanding as my local Hampshire/Wiltshire pot-hole and gravel-strewn slalom courses.

I think my mind is made up to go with battery IXONs. Last night I was out riding when my single IXON dropped onto low beam (I'd been negligent in my charging regime).  It's normally OK for a few hours on low power but I was able to drop into the garage at Sutton Scotney and buy some Duracels. 

A set of 4 AAs is enough to ride through the night with an IXON and they don't weigh much in the grand scheme of things so I think I'll make a mental note to carry 4 spares at all times, replacing them if required.

Note. Re. 2 front lights. I think the scrutineers check you have 2 working front lights so it's more than just a nice-to-have.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on February 18, 2015, 12:14:32 pm
as Shimano, AFAIK, don`t do 3W disc dynohubs.

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-deore-lx-dh-t675-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:591997

thanks, but not as 32H it seems but for price maybe 36H OK  ???
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: marcusjb on February 18, 2015, 12:22:51 pm

Note. Re. 2 front lights. I think the scrutineers check you have 2 working front lights so it's more than just a nice-to-have.

Not quite (from regulation 8 of the rules) - recommendation, not requirement:

Bikes must possess a lighting system powerful enough to be seen at a distance of 100 m from the front and 150 m from the rear. It must be securely and permanently fixed on the bike, even during daytime, and in working order at all times. Flashing LEDs at the rear are forbidden. Backup lighting systems are strongly recommended.
Lights must be turned on at all times during hours of darkness or other low-light conditions, whether the participant rides alone or in a group.
If the controllers stop a rider because of no lighting or insufficient lighting, they will not allow him or her to continue until the lighting failure has been repaired, unless he or she has emergency lighting. In this case he or she may ride to the next checkpoint.


I really don't remember anything where you needed really powerful lights.  It's all big roads, decent surfaces, and little in the way of steep and twisty. 

Certainly having bright lights is hardly going to gain you that much extra sleeping time.  You'd probably lose any time made up by descending 5-10kph quicker when you have to change the batteries.

As mattc (and some other bloke with glasses) says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNNxeovdN5U&list=RDHNNxeovdN5U#t=18

will do you just fine.  Nothing particularly special needed.  Dynamo or battery.  Both work. 
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: chris n on February 18, 2015, 12:25:48 pm
as Shimano, AFAIK, don`t do 3W disc dynohubs.

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-deore-lx-dh-t675-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:591997

thanks, but not as 32H it seems but for price maybe 36H OK  ???

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-deore-xt-dh-t785-1d-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:742795
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on February 18, 2015, 12:50:36 pm
as Shimano, AFAIK, don`t do 3W disc dynohubs.

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-deore-lx-dh-t675-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:591997

thanks, but not as 32H it seems but for price maybe 36H OK  ???

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-deore-xt-dh-t785-1d-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:742795

mucho gracias senor  :thumbsup:

Rose Bikes look a good thing indeed
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: fuaran on February 18, 2015, 12:59:02 pm
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-deore-xt-dh-t785-1d-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:742795
That's the 1.5W version. So its lighter weight/less drag, but your lights won't be as bright. Probably best avoided for audax.

Better to get something like the DH-3D80 / DH-T785:
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-dh-3d80-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:520202
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-hub-dynamo-deore-xt-dh-t785/aid:515917
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Kim on February 18, 2015, 12:59:40 pm
Quote
Bikes must possess a lighting system powerful enough to be seen at a distance of 100 m from the front and 150 m from the rear. It must be securely and permanently fixed on the bike, even during daytime, and in working order at all times.

Is this a translation issue?  I can't think of many battery-powered front lights that are *permanently* fixed on the bike, by any reasonable definition of the term (eg. "something you need tools to remove").

Perhaps they're trying to say "lights must be in place for the duration of the event"?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Aunt Maud on February 18, 2015, 01:37:00 pm


I hope they don't lack sprightliness.  I also spend the vast majority of my time climbing steep hills.  I hope they aren't heavy on those either. 

Serious buyers panic now.  It's all my savings on three wheels....if they feel slow compared to a £200 factory set I shall be absolutely gutted.

You gonna be sooooo sloooowww, you'll have to give yourself an extra week  :P
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: frankly frankie on February 18, 2015, 01:47:12 pm
SO: any lighting that gets you through a UK night-ride is adequate. You just need to be sure of 3x the time requirement (or maybe 4x for many of us?).

I think there's a far higher proportion of unlit road on PBP, than on the typical UK night ride.  And the roads often lack any white lines, again more so than in the UK.  And of course PBP nights are 10 hours long, which is longer than on UK qualifying 400s and 600s.  This all contributes to a general impression of blackness.

And the 3x requirement is significant because it makes use of rechargables much more problematic - and for many people the words 'battery' and 'rechargable' seem to go together like ham and eggs.

There's no difficulty with buying AAs en route but I wouldn't do this - because alkaline cells (which is what you would be buying) are simply completely useless in high-power lights.  I would set out carrying sufficient lithium AAs to last the whole event - say 20 unlit night hours but YMMV - that would weigh no more, and probably less, than any rechargable solution to cover the same duration.  I think last time Sheila rode she set off with 24 AAs and brought 8 back unused.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Feline on February 18, 2015, 02:57:56 pm
Quote
Bikes must possess a lighting system powerful enough to be seen at a distance of 100 m from the front and 150 m from the rear. It must be securely and permanently fixed on the bike, even during daytime, and in working order at all times.

Is this a translation issue?  I can't think of many battery-powered front lights that are *permanently* fixed on the bike, by any reasonable definition of the term (eg. "something you need tools to remove").

Perhaps they're trying to say "lights must be in place for the duration of the event"?

They just mean the light is fixed to the bike and not to yourself or a bag I think.
They were perfectly happy with the velcro bracket on my backup Fenix pen torch front light at the bike check last time.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jsabine on February 19, 2015, 01:10:06 am
Quote
Bikes must possess a lighting system powerful enough to be seen at a distance of 100 m from the front and 150 m from the rear. It must be securely and permanently fixed on the bike, even during daytime, and in working order at all times.

Is this a translation issue?  I can't think of many battery-powered front lights that are *permanently* fixed on the bike, by any reasonable definition of the term (eg. "something you need tools to remove").

Perhaps they're trying to say "lights must be in place for the duration of the event"?

They just mean the light is fixed to the bike and not to yourself or a bag I think.
They were perfectly happy with the velcro bracket on my backup Fenix pen torch front light at the bike check last time.

Aye, looking at the French text, I'd go for wording something like "it must be securely attached, and permanently on the cycle, even during daylight" - as Feline says, they want it on the bike, not flopping around on your luggage, and it needs to be ready for use at all times so in poor visibility you can just switch it on rather than (not) stopping to root around in your bag to dig it out.

Quote
Les cycles doivent être munis d'un éclairage à l’avant et à l’arrière, suffisamment puissant pour être visible à 100 mètres devant et à 150 mètres derrière. Cet éclairage doit être solidement fixé et en permanence sur le cycle, même le jour, en constant état de fonctionnement. A l’arrière, la diode rouge en fonction clignotante est interdite.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Kim on February 19, 2015, 02:44:37 pm
Thought so.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: marcusjb on February 19, 2015, 02:53:25 pm
A french man shakes your bike.

Nothing falls off (and you wave a reflective gilet at him) ----> here's a sticker

Stuff falls off ----> here's an expensive bike shop that sells stuff that doesn't fall off, come back poorer and I will shake your bike again
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: citoyen on February 19, 2015, 02:56:34 pm
I would set out carrying sufficient lithium AAs to last the whole event - say 20 unlit night hours but YMMV - that would weigh no more, and probably less, than any rechargable solution to cover the same duration.  I think last time Sheila rode she set off with 24 AAs and brought 8 back unused.

Thanks, that puts it in quantifiable terms I can understand.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Kim on February 19, 2015, 03:06:03 pm
A french man shakes your bike.

Nothing falls off (and you wave a reflective gilet at him) ----> here's a sticker

Stuff falls off ----> here's an expensive bike shop that sells stuff that doesn't fall off, come back poorer and I will shake your bike again

Ah, the cycleman test.   ;D
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Frank9755 on February 20, 2015, 10:36:14 am

Note. Re. 2 front lights. I think the scrutineers check you have 2 working front lights so it's more than just a nice-to-have.

Not quite (from regulation 8 of the rules) - recommendation, not requirement:

Bikes must possess a lighting system powerful enough to be seen at a distance of 100 m from the front and 150 m from the rear. It must be securely and permanently fixed on the bike, even during daytime, and in working order at all times. Flashing LEDs at the rear are forbidden. Backup lighting systems are strongly recommended.
Lights must be turned on at all times during hours of darkness or other low-light conditions, whether the participant rides alone or in a group.
If the controllers stop a rider because of no lighting or insufficient lighting, they will not allow him or her to continue until the lighting failure has been repaired, unless he or she has emergency lighting. In this case he or she may ride to the next checkpoint.


I really don't remember anything where you needed really powerful lights.  It's all big roads, decent surfaces, and little in the way of steep and twisty. 

Certainly having bright lights is hardly going to gain you that much extra sleeping time.  You'd probably lose any time made up by descending 5-10kph quicker when you have to change the batteries.

As mattc (and some other bloke with glasses) says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNNxeovdN5U&list=RDHNNxeovdN5U#t=18

will do you just fine.  Nothing particularly special needed.  Dynamo or battery.  Both work.

Last time, Andy, who I had started with, told me at the end that, on the last night, his dynamo had packed up and his back-up front light had run down its battery.  So he had to resort to using a little keyring with an LED in it that they had given us at one of the controls.  He managed to ride ok with that until the sun came up!
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Somnolent on February 20, 2015, 12:57:05 pm
Just got one of these http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/LISMLU60/smart-lunar-60-lux-front-light
On first look last night it seems not dissimilar to the Hope Vision 1 (both on high setting) in terms of brightness and beam shape
Claimed run time of 3 hours on high is also about the same but with just 2 AAs rather than 4.

A pair of them running Lithiums would be a cheap, lightweight, battery option.  Or just one as back-up to another system, with the option of buying more AAs along the way if you things go pear-shaped with your primary light.

My only fear would be that Smarts have less than stellar reputation if it gets very wet.


Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: wilkyboy on February 20, 2015, 01:59:05 pm
Just got one of these http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/LISMLU60/smart-lunar-60-lux-front-light
On first look last night it seems not dissimilar to the Hope Vision 1 (both on high setting) in terms of brightness and beam shape
Claimed run time of 3 hours on high is also about the same but with just 2 AAs rather than 4.

A pair of them running Lithiums would be a cheap, lightweight, battery option.  Or just one as back-up to another system, with the option of buying more AAs along the way if you things go pear-shaped with your primary light.

My only fear would be that Smarts have less than stellar reputation if it gets very wet.

I use one of these as my backup:  http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cateye-hl-el130-led-front-light/. 

I often have it on at the same time as the dyno light to look more like a bike to motorists.  A pair of AAs lasts several day/night outings (so probably most of the darkness on PBP).  I keep a pair of AAs in the bag for when they die -- I tested a new pair of AAs the other day, but couldn't tell if they were any brighter, so put the old ones back in, and they've been there since November -- I am not expecting to run out, even if the dyno quits on me.  The light-output isn't anywhere near as good (=bright & shapely) as my dyno, but I think it's better than Mrs W's old Smart front light and it's bright enough to ride by (not super-speed, though).  It's also smaller and easier to pack away than a Smart, which is a bit bulbous (although I tend to just leave it mounted, as it weighs the same wherever it's stashed).  As a cheap, useable backup, it ticks the boxes for me.

As a bonus, additional brackets are cheap and available from my LBS, so it also serves as the main light on my town bike:  although that has a Raleigh DynoHub (that is actually embossed into its chrome fascia), the bulb's piss-poor and the lens is yellow with age  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LEE on February 20, 2015, 03:14:34 pm
In summary, anyone who is concerned about riding through the night on PBP roads must have better local lanes than I do.

Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: simonp on February 20, 2015, 03:26:50 pm
In 2007 in the wet I fequently got caught behind riders being cautious on descents and being unable to get past due to the twisty roads. Maybe if they had better lights they'd be more confident. I had two lights and the brightest was only used when I was in front and with no oncoming traffic which added to the difficulty of getting past cautious riders.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: mattc on February 20, 2015, 04:34:20 pm
In 2007 in the wet I fequently got caught behind riders being cautious on descents and being unable to get past due to the twisty roads. Maybe if they had better lights they'd be more confident.
Maybe; but probably not.

 even in dry daylight, there is a big range in descending confidence on your average audax.

When its wet, people vary even more.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: dasmi on February 20, 2015, 10:33:54 pm
If you are using batteries take spares with you..........I found only one source of batteries...lidl ( don't now where )

If I do this edition I have dynamo lights which are way better than my battery lights.

cheers

dave
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: huggy on March 02, 2015, 08:45:06 am
I empathise with some of the angst being expressed by some in this thread as I have just emerged from the same, the better for it I believe.  Having been vetoed an n+1 this year and with PBP on the horizon I decided to upgrade my Salsa Vaya with a new set of dynohub disc brake wheels. I was encouraged to contact Harry Rowland for hand built wheels to spec for my needs of Audax and light touring - Harry told me what I needed once I'd selected the dynohub (you don't contradict Harry if you want him to build wheels for you).  My equipment list is:
I also fitted new disc rotors, pads, 11-34 cassette & chain and Conti GP4000 IIs 28c tyres, all sourced from various vendors.

So far the longest ride has been a 30 mile MEMWNS (look it up in the Rides & Touring board) evening trip with a first 200k Audax this coming weekend - The Horsepower.  With my limited experience on my new set up so far all I can say is that I don't expect to regret anything, especially not the ability to power my GPS and have the backlight on all night!
I feel my ride was smoother and quicker than on previous factory built wheels, that may have something to do with the new chain & cassette and cleaned jockey wheels & crank of course.
Looking forward to not looking back  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: wilkyboy on March 02, 2015, 11:09:06 am
  • Shimano 32H DH-3D80 disc hub dynamo, purchased from Rose and sent to Harry.
  • B + M Lumotec IQ2 Luxos U senso plus front headlamp with USB connection, from Rose.
  • B + M Toplight View Brake Plus dynamo back light, from Rose.
  • Light cable - twin-core, from Rose (you'll need this to connect the rear light to front light).
...
Looking forward to not looking back  :thumbsup:

I've been running this setup (on slightly different hubs) ever since the IQ2 was available over here back in 2013: it has been tested in some rough conditions and it hasn't let me down.  The beam shape is an acquired taste apparently, but I have always liked it; a small trade-off for USB power, as it's more than bright enough for fast night riding.  The Toplight series of rear lights are nice: bright enough to be seen, not so bright they blind, standlight, and integrated reflector.

Just remember that USB's not waterproof, so you can only charge when it's not raining -- get this wrong and your lights might start behaving strangely (I have a Mk I and I have to be careful when washing the bike -- this may be fixed in the Mk IIs, which don't have a removable remote switch).  You shouldn't need to charge on a 200 anyway, at least not unless you're ECE'ing it; and you might find one of these short cables usefully uncluttering for when you do: mini-USB for Garmin 800/810 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004A9JJ3G?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00) (or something a bit more cluttery if you use the Out-Front mount (http://www.amazon.co.uk/StarTech-feet-Mini-USB-Cable/dp/B004YD6LW0/ref=pd_bxgy_computers_img_y) -- if you're good with a soldering iron, this can be shortened), or micro-USB for Garmin 1000 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/StarTech-inch-Micro-USB-Cable/dp/B003YKX6WM/ref=pd_bxgy_ce_text_y).

Also, you probably want to charge during the day, as charging with the light on dims the light noticeably.  I find my Garmin 800 lasts right through the darkened hours from a full-ish charge on a dimmed/off screen.

For the length of PBP I intend to use the USB during the day to recharge a 10,000mAh battery pack, which I will use to charge my phone (for toonz) and the Garmin.  The Garmin is really just a glorified speedo-cum-ride-recorder on PBP, so if I have to charge in the rain then I will drop it into the pack to charge in the dry and follow the arrows for an hour or two.  I reckon it takes ~20 hours to recharge the battery pack from flat from the IQ2's USB port -- but one full charge should give me enough to recharge the phone five times (I should only need it recharging twice, perhaps three times on PBP), or the Garmin about eight times (I should need six, I think).  If the battery pack fails then I will charge directly from USB; if I lose USB then I will use the battery pack for the GPS-only; if I lose both then I will just ride my bike.  I might even reassess and use a smaller and lighter battery pack closer to the time (it's a bit weighty at ~260g).
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: huggy on March 02, 2015, 12:02:45 pm
Agree with everything, Wilky, good to hear about the reliability of the IQ2 considering your extensive punishment testing of it :)
What isn't shown on the current IQ2 is that there is an additional wire coming out of the switch with somewhat weatherproofed inline connector that has a female USB tail to plug in to it - that tail is just about long enough to reach my handlebar bag to keep it out of the rain, although some additional rain protection is planned.  When not in use the USB inline connector has a rubber cap to keep it protected.  I may get round to posting a few pics if interested.

Re the beam pattern - yes, it's a bit different to the Hope Vision 1 with the more spread field of beam which may incorrectly be considered as providing a less bright illumination of the road.  When I tried turning on the Hope in addition to IQ2 the general illumination of what's ahead did not significantly improve - I'll be carrying a Hope as my backup light but not expecting to use it to supplement the IQ2.

I have an eTrex 30 so I'm powering it rather than charging it, the main advantage being for the night time always on backlight and not depleting the AA batteries until needed.  I also have a 9000mAh battery pack that I will charge and use similar to your description, its main use will be for topping up mobile phone and backup to other power sources should it be required.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: postrestant on March 02, 2015, 09:30:19 pm
Is the IQ2 Luxos always 'on' -- i.e., when the light isn't switched on, is it still charging the internal battery? And if so, does that mean the 'drag' is several times that of, say, a not switched on Cyo (or any light without an internal battery)?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Kim on March 02, 2015, 09:48:04 pm
Is the IQ2 Luxos always 'on' -- i.e., when the light isn't switched on, is it still charging the internal battery? And if so, does that mean the 'drag' is several times that of, say, a not switched on Cyo (or any light without an internal battery)?

The battery charge controller won't draw current indefinitely (otherwise the battery would suffer a magic smoke release).  I've no idea about the switching behaviour, but once the battery is full I'm sure the current draw drops to half a percent of bugger all.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jsabine on March 02, 2015, 10:30:00 pm
Is the IQ2 Luxos always 'on' -- i.e., when the light isn't switched on, is it still charging the internal battery? And if so, does that mean the 'drag' is several times that of, say, a not switched on Cyo (or any light without an internal battery)?

The battery charge controller won't draw current indefinitely (otherwise the battery would suffer a magic smoke release).  I've no idea about the switching behaviour, but once the battery is full I'm sure the current draw drops to half a percent of bugger all.

While true, it's also got DRL - and I'm fairly sure I've read that the draw for them is not far off that for the main beam. Not that I notice it in use, mind.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Kim on March 02, 2015, 10:41:00 pm
While true, it's also got DRL - and I'm fairly sure I've read that the draw for them is not far off that for the main beam. Not that I notice it in use, mind.

I haven't got a Luxos, but I have got a Cyo T Senso Premium.  The DRL mode draws about three times as much current as the night time beam mode (assuming the dynamo is turning fast enough to supply that much).  Not sure if you can extrapolate to the Luxos...
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: huggy on March 02, 2015, 11:00:41 pm
The battery charge controller won't draw current indefinitely (otherwise the battery would suffer a magic smoke release).  I've no idea about the switching behaviour, but once the battery is full I'm sure the current draw drops to half a percent of bugger all.

Quote from: b+m manual
If the cache battery is empty it takes about ten minutes of cycling at 15km/h to charge it completely if the headlight is switched off and no USB devices are connected to the handlebar button.

Quote from: b+m manual
DRL in Day mode
The headlamp shines dimmed onto the road, the additional daytime running LEDs shine with full intensity, maximum visibility for oncoming traffic!
No mention of respective load on the dynamo though, just switch it off entirely during daylight if you don't need the auto switch on at dusk or have to warn on coming traffic of your presence.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Somnolent on March 02, 2015, 11:40:15 pm
The battery charge controller won't draw current indefinitely (otherwise the battery would suffer a magic smoke release).  I've no idea about the switching behaviour, but once the battery is full I'm sure the current draw drops to half a percent of bugger all.

Quote from: b+m manual
If the cache battery is empty it takes about ten minutes of cycling at 15km/h to charge it completely if the headlight is switched off and no USB devices are connected to the handlebar button.

Quote from: b+m manual
DRL in Day mode
The headlamp shines dimmed onto the road, the additional daytime running LEDs shine with full intensity, maximum visibility for oncoming traffic!
No mention of respective load on the dynamo though, just switch it off entirely during daylight if you don't need the auto switch on at dusk or have to warn on coming traffic of your presence.

You can turn the Luxos 'off' so no DRL or headlight (or auto-switching between them) and still take power from the USB thingy.
In this condition I've consistently failed to take enough off it, either charging a cache battery, or a hungry smartphone, to discharge the internal battery.
Lights on and it's a different ball game: The red LED in the switch is on-again off-again every few minutes with either smartphone or cache battery.

With lights on (front dipped and rear) Luxos will still give the 100 mW r so needed by the Etrex Vista running nav and low % backlit screen. 

 
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jsabine on March 03, 2015, 01:02:26 am
My problem (in this regard at any rate) is at least two-fold. I'm bone idle, and much prefer to let the light do the thinking required as to when it should be on rather than, perish the thought, have to actually operate the switch. Second, I'm not at all confident I've got the Luxos' switching modes sussed: it appears to have a mind of its own, so after a few episodes of randomly stabbing at the button, now that it's on permanently (well, with DRL during the day) I just leave it that way.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: wilkyboy on March 03, 2015, 08:50:32 am
My problem (in this regard at any rate) is at least two-fold. I'm bone idle, and much prefer to let the light do the thinking required as to when it should be on rather than, perish the thought, have to actually operate the switch. Second, I'm not at all confident I've got the Luxos' switching modes sussed: it appears to have a mind of its own, so after a few episodes of randomly stabbing at the button, now that it's on permanently (well, with DRL during the day) I just leave it that way.

Personally, I find the trick with the Luxos IQ2 is this (I have a mk I):
I don't notice the drag from the hub any more than any other bit of the bike, so I leave the light running.  Wind resistance, rolling resistance and weight all have far, far greater effects than the measly few Watts from the dynamo ... and that's why I'll be finishing PBP at least 50km behind everyone else, m'lud  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Von Broad on March 03, 2015, 09:10:09 am
I don't notice the drag from the hub any more than any other bit of the bike, so I leave the light running.  Wind resistance, rolling resistance and weight all have far, far greater effects than the measly few Watts from the dynamo ...

Which is how I see it too.
Preparation and fitness are obviously important [and it would be very unwise to ignore them], and not wishing to drag the tread away from the subject, but it feels like a fitting place to repeat a quote I read the other day by Han Wessels. To be honest, I'm not sure of the context, but it made a lot of sense and worth remembering,IMO.

"Stop worrying about bike weights and so on. Most important aspect of a PBP bike is it being comfortable. You will ride on it for a long, long time. Your daily commute bike might be a very good PBP bike. You ride a lot on it, it is dependable and you know the bike by heart."
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Somnolent on March 03, 2015, 10:32:41 am
I'm bone idle, and much prefer to let the light do the thinking required as to when it should be on rather than, perish the thought, have to actually operate the switch.
;D   You'll be wanting it to turn the pedals for you next  ;D
Second, I'm not at all confident I've got the Luxos' switching modes sussed: it appears to have a mind of its own, so after a few episodes of randomly stabbing at the button, now that it's on permanently (well, with DRL during the day) I just leave it that way.
I found I actually had to read the instructions  :o  before I was confident I knew what I was doing with it.
Nick's post is a good substitute if you've lost yours ! 
That said - I'm not infrequently peering around my stem to check I have light on (by reference to the LEDs on the rear mounted switch) ... and occasionally craning around further to check the LEDs are not lying and the light is really really on at both front and back.   Paranoid? Moi?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LEE on March 03, 2015, 11:46:32 am
"Stop worrying about bike weights and so on. Most important aspect of a PBP bike is it being comfortable.
You will ride on it for a long, long time. Your daily commute bike might be a very good PBP bike.
You ride a lot on it, it is dependable and you know the bike by heart."

If you remember just one piece of advice then remember this.

Between now and August I will be concentrating on getting my bike comfy.  I'll start a separate thread "PBP Comfort Issues" where we can document all potential pitfalls and tips how to avoid them.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Salvatore on March 03, 2015, 11:54:40 am
I don't notice the drag from the hub any more than any other bit of the bike, so I leave the light running.  Wind resistance, rolling resistance and weight all have far, far greater effects than the measly few Watts from the dynamo ...

Which is how I see it too.
Preparation and fitness are obviously important [and it would be very unwise to ignore them], and not wishing to drag the tread away from the subject, but it feels like a fitting place to repeat a quote I read the other day by Han Wessels. To be honest, I'm not sure of the context, but it made a lot of sense and worth remembering,IMO.

"<b>Stop worrying about bike weights and so on.</b> Most important aspect of a PBP bike is it being comfortable. You will ride on it for a long, long time. Your daily commute bike might be a very good PBP bike. You ride a lot on it, it is dependable and you know the bike by heart."

All well and good, Mr Von Broad, but isn't it best to worry about weight and so on now, rather than 50 km from the finish of PBP?

Otherwise you might find yourself having to get rid of all extraneous luggage, hide it behind a hedge, finish the ride with 5 minutes to spare, and go back the following day to retrieve it.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on March 03, 2015, 04:38:25 pm
I don't notice the drag from the hub any more than any other bit of the bike, so I leave the light running.  Wind resistance, rolling resistance and weight all have far, far greater effects than the measly few Watts from the dynamo ...

Which is how I see it too.
Preparation and fitness are obviously important [and it would be very unwise to ignore them], and not wishing to drag the tread away from the subject, but it feels like a fitting place to repeat a quote I read the other day by Han Wessels. To be honest, I'm not sure of the context, but it made a lot of sense and worth remembering,IMO.

"<b>Stop worrying about bike weights and so on.</b> Most important aspect of a PBP bike is it being comfortable. You will ride on it for a long, long time. Your daily commute bike might be a very good PBP bike. You ride a lot on it, it is dependable and you know the bike by heart."

All well and good, Mr Von Broad, but isn't it best to worry about weight and so on now, rather than 50 km from the finish of PBP?

Otherwise you might find yourself having to get rid of all extraneous luggage, hide it behind a hedge, finish the ride with 5 minutes to spare, and go back the following day to retrieve it.

to a point---however for my speed / rate ascent (which is where weight does matter most) I reckon, from my observations, that each extra kg (bike, luggage or me) I`ll spend an extra minute per 700m ascent. So PBP each extra kg >> 15minutes extra; so in the end it depends on how close a call to cut off time it all becomes as to whether reduced weight is more critical than comfort 
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Von Broad on March 03, 2015, 05:41:11 pm
All well and good, Mr Von Broad, but isn't it best to worry about weight and so on now, rather than 50 km from the finish of PBP?
Otherwise you might find yourself having to get rid of all extraneous luggage, hide it behind a hedge, finish the ride with 5 minutes to spare, and go back the following day to retrieve it.


Mr Salvatore, you are of course right to remind me of this, but, more importantly, you are also very wrong.  :)
There wasn't anything wrong with the weight of my bike, and it was the the bike that Hans was referring too, it was the kitchen sink I was carrying that was the issue. After I dumped all the gear, I was flying in turbo mode.

Amusing, when I went to retrieve all the luggage I'd dumped in the hedge, I couldn't believe the state of the recumbent - the axis of the BB was about 10degrees off horizontal. The whole thing had twisted over the course of the ride. It got pensioned off after that. Got to love the flexibility of mild steel - natural cushioning!

Ironically, if I ride this year, I'll be on an even heavier recumbent - it's the best bike I've built [2008] and has a nice robust feel to it :-) I had ambitions to make a soot version, but if I spent less time drinking beer and talking about it, It would be finished and ready by now. I've started, but progress is slow. Anyway, can't beat a bit of weight.

Now......back on topic

And in all seriousness, I'm even thinking of trying out a bottle dynamo this weekend on the KV200, mainly because I don't have decent battery lights [I can't really justify the expense right now], and I don't have time to build a new 20" hub for the recumbent. Crazy as that might does sound, if it's acceptable with a new Cyo, then I might even go with that. Apart from performance, what's not like? Weighs nothing, no drag during the day - it's a no-brainer. I will then be [the only one] advocating a return to the use of bottle dynamos.  :)
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Polar Bear on March 03, 2015, 05:57:50 pm
A battery lighting bargain IMO (http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/LISMLU60/smart-lunar-60-lux-front-light)
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on March 03, 2015, 06:00:56 pm
A battery lighting bargain IMO (http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/LISMLU60/smart-lunar-60-lux-front-light)

Planet X are also doing some dual coloured Eleganza bar tape @ £2.99 a pack---the red and blue could be pleasing to the French PBP bike checkers eye ;D
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Somnolent on March 04, 2015, 10:47:43 pm
A battery lighting bargain IMO (http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/LISMLU60/smart-lunar-60-lux-front-light)

Ahem - reviewed upthread:   http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=88025.msg1816713#msg1816713 (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=88025.msg1816713#msg1816713)
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: SR Steve on April 06, 2015, 11:25:02 pm
I've still not decided whether to use my hub dynamo or not yet :-\  I'll try it out on the qualifiers to make sure that the light quality is worth the drag.

Is the drag worth worrying about?  http://mccraw.co.uk/hub-dynamo-friction/

I have now tried out my Roubaix with the hub dynamo system and mudguards on its first audax ride, BlackSheep's recent 300 from near Tewkesbury to Llandovery and back and I can't tell the difference in performance compared to my otherwise identical Roubaix without dynamo or mudguards that I have used on a few 200s.

So "No" I don't think the drag is worth worrying about and I'll hopefully be using my Shimano DH-3N80, B&M Luxos U, B&M Seculite system on the PBP with cheap Smart LED battery lights as back up. I have been using a Garmin Edge 200 since the beginning of 2015 and found that it lasted throughout my 300 with the backlight on the lowest setting. On longer rides I'll probably connect it to the USB port of the Luxos after about 300km so it carries on working, or could just start with it connected to save faffing later. I doubt I'll go fast enough to blow it up.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on April 13, 2015, 01:44:24 pm
Definitely going a dynamo route with a back up Cree torch 1 x 18650 ----having got well behind on time @ w/e on elenydd very glad I had dynamo for 4 hours riding in dark rather than worrying about spare batteries packs  for a  LED setup
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: simonp on April 13, 2015, 02:58:21 pm
Tried out new EDelux II on the Elenydd and it's very, very good. Also used IQ Premium alongside - 5h run time on full power. Like driving with really good car headlights.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: fussballclub on June 09, 2015, 12:06:39 pm
It's worth having at least 2 front and 2 rear lights in case 1 fails. I use a Smart Lunar 25 as a back up light as it has a 14 hour run time on 2 AA batteries (longer on lithiums) and it gives a good enough light for 90% of the PBP night riding. (I have managed the whole thing on much worse lights.) They are currently only £6.99 at http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/smart-lunar-25-lux-front-light-white-id64040.html?gclid=COnRrcuO6sMCFcsBwwod4wYAlA or £9.99 for a black one.

You could have a brighter front light as well and only switch it on for fast descents or use a good quality head torch. I used a cheap Cree light as a main beam last time.

I've still not decided whether to use my hub dynamo or not yet :-\  I'll try it out on the qualifiers to make sure that the light quality is worth the drag.

Thought my Smart35 was only good for town? You have done PBP on less light? That would make it cheap and cheerful. While a dynamo is probably the most sophisticated solution this would help if works.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: rob on June 09, 2015, 12:33:27 pm
I ride with 2*Cateye EL520s.   Don't think you can get them any more but they're perfectly bright enough for PBP, even on normal setting.   They need a battery changeover half way through.

The last time I went over the Roc at night in damp/misty conditions.   The riders coming the other way had such bright lights that I could barely see - had glasses on and a cap pulled down.    I do think a lot of riders go over the top with lighting solutions.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: citoyen on June 09, 2015, 01:29:32 pm
The riders coming the other way had such bright lights that I could barely see

This was noticeable on the WCW a couple of weeks ago - in the final 30km to Chester, as I started to encounter riders coming back the other way.

I'm not sure if the problem is the lights being too bright so much as not being positioned properly - I suspect it would be mostly solved just by pointing them downwards a bit more.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Veloman on June 09, 2015, 01:43:11 pm
I'm not sure if the problem is the lights being too bright so much as not being positioned properly - I suspect it would be mostly solved just by pointing them downwards a bit more.

I agree.  Car headlights blind you when they are on full beam and are OK when dipped.  If you consider the light from an Edelux II (scroll down at http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/headlights.asp ) (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/headlights.asp )) you can imagine what that would be like if it was not adjusted to an appropriate angle.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on June 09, 2015, 01:49:08 pm
They do need to be pointed down a bit, but it's also a design fault, I'd say. The trouble is there is often too much beam above the bright spot. You want that bright spot pointed fairly high up so as to illuminate the road a decent distance ahead of you and avoid making everything else look dark in contrast, but that leaves too much of the beam going up into oncomers' eyes. Insufficient or bad beam shaping. As well as not pointing the things down a bit.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Jacques on June 09, 2015, 02:35:02 pm
My lights are a legacy from doing SR series over several years on events that did lots of small lanes. They are Lumicycle battery powered lights and 2 batteries last me a PBP easily. They are totally over the top for PBP but were necessary for the kind of events I did in the UK. They are still trouble free & going strong so I still use them.

I've just completed my qualification series in France and I never saw a dynamo set up or anything else from the French riders except off the shelf lights. A good 90% of them I talked to about lighting say why bother with something they only ever do every 4 years. Most of them don't bother with long night rides outside PBP years. So my advice is if you are only doing this for the one PBP and won't continue afterwards don't fret about your lights.

Like Rob said up thread. Most set ups are way over the top, even for the UK.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: zigzag on June 09, 2015, 03:50:26 pm
i'll be using smart 60 lux light, 2aa batteries enough for the night in high mode, brighter beam than b&m luxos (not as wide though). i like the luxos light in "boost" mode if it was always on, it would make me seriously consider the dynamo option.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Frank9755 on June 09, 2015, 05:39:06 pm
Anyone got any comments on the Exposure Flare rear light for PBP

It would be anti-social behaviour: you don't need a bright light like that!
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: fussballclub on June 09, 2015, 05:47:45 pm
^^ Yep even thinking that back to the start. Please don't.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on June 09, 2015, 05:54:22 pm
Anyone got any comments on the Exposure Flare rear light for PBP

It would be anti-social behaviour: you don't need a bright light like that!

don`t know how bright Flare is but if it`s anything like a couple of bright tail lights I`ve encountered please avoid---can be blinding (although it could be a good deterrent to wheelsuckers ;) Maybe there`s a need for such in city traffic situations but otherwise don`t think so

Re dynamos though---convenience factor is high; and weight also ? the Shimano dynohub adds about 350gm to bike weight; by comparison for the battery lights I would use---1000 lumen Cree---I`d be taking at least 1 x 6600mAh and 1 x 4400mAh battery packs which weigh in at 600gm + Maybe my lighting could be too bright but it`s what I feel I require to avoid UK road hazards ie potholes ::-)
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: citoyen on June 09, 2015, 06:23:24 pm
They do need to be pointed down a bit, but it's also a design fault, I'd say... Insufficient or bad beam shaping.

True. Probably because most of the really powerful bike lights are designed more for singletrack riders, where you actually want a good all round spread of light to avoid overhead obstacles such as low-hanging branches - in fact, the Cateye Volt 1200 explicitly says in the instructions "not for road use".

One of the best high-powered lights for road use in this respect is the Lezyne Mega Drive. It's damn heavy but it has a better shaped beam than most - the slight peak over the top probably helps a bit.

I've been using the Gemini Duo, which claims to produce 1500 lumens - massive overkill for road use but it has three user-definable settings and most of the time on the WCW I was riding with it on the lowest setting (10%, I think). I boosted it to medium or high for some of the lanes, when the extra light was useful for avoiding potholes - and when there was no oncoming traffic to annoy. It has no beam shaping though, so potentially very annoying for riders coming the other way, but I tried to have it pointing right down at the road in front of my bike so I hope that did the trick. It also has a bit of lateral adjustability, so I try to point it slightly towards the nearside of the road (another useful feature of car headlights - which is of course why you need to put the stickers on them when driving abroad).
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Veloman on June 09, 2015, 06:38:04 pm
Anyone got any comments on the Exposure Flare rear light for PBP

It would be anti-social behaviour: you don't need a bright light like that!

^^ Yep even thinking that back to the start. Please don't.

^^^^ Agree with the above and very grateful flashing LEDs are banned in France and on PBP. (Oh wait, spot the UK rider with flashing LEDs!)

These will last a long time and can be distributed over the bike and worn on helmets:

http://www.7dayshop.com/products/7dayshop-bike-light-super-bright-led-bicycle-lights-front-rear-7DAY-S-CA-1024 (http://www.7dayshop.com/products/7dayshop-bike-light-super-bright-led-bicycle-lights-front-rear-7DAY-S-CA-1024)
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Aunt Maud on June 09, 2015, 08:15:20 pm
Can't stand those flashing rear LED's.

Please stop using the bloody things.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: simonp on June 09, 2015, 08:16:54 pm
They do need to be pointed down a bit, but it's also a design fault, I'd say. The trouble is there is often too much beam above the bright spot. You want that bright spot pointed fairly high up so as to illuminate the road a decent distance ahead of you and avoid making everything else look dark in contrast, but that leaves too much of the beam going up into oncomers' eyes. Insufficient or bad beam shaping. As well as not pointing the things down a bit.

The trouble this is that the person riding with the light is not the person experiencing the light face-on. However, the Edelux II, Edelux, and all the IQ lights meet
 the German lighting regulations and this specifically includes how much light is above the bright spot. As for any dipped beam light, including a car headlight, if it's incorrectly set-up, the light will dazzle oncoming road users.

I have ridden with a lot of people who have these lights with sharp cut-off, but they clearly have aimed the light so that the cut-off is above the horizontal.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Veloman on June 09, 2015, 08:22:51 pm
Can't stand those flashing rear LED's.

Please stop using the bloody things.

Agreed.

Fortunately these have non-flashing mode too:

http://www.7dayshop.com/products/7dayshop-bike-light-super-bright-led-bicycle-lights-front-rear-7DAY-S-CA-1024 (http://www.7dayshop.com/products/7dayshop-bike-light-super-bright-led-bicycle-lights-front-rear-7DAY-S-CA-1024)[/quote]
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Aunt Maud on June 10, 2015, 06:56:03 am
They do need to be pointed down a bit, but it's also a design fault, I'd say... Insufficient or bad beam shaping.

True. Probably because most of the really powerful bike lights are designed more for singletrack riders, where you actually want a good all round spread of light to avoid overhead obstacles such as low-hanging branches - in fact, the Cateye Volt 1200 explicitly says in the instructions "not for road use".

One of the best high-powered lights for road use in this respect is the Lezyne Mega Drive. It's damn heavy but it has a better shaped beam than most - the slight peak over the top probably helps a bit.


I have a pair of Lezyne Deca Drive front lights. Usually one on low beam (250lm/6hrs burn time) is enough, but I take pleasure in doing the double up on high beam as a special treat to either Motons who refuse to do the dip lights thing or cycle fucktards who use those daft circular MTB spots or cheap Ebay Cree spots on the road.

A retina searing blast of 1800 lumens usually produces a satisfactory result.  :demon:

As they're on my bars I can place my hand over the top of the lens to create a dip beam effect for other oncoming road users and I'll only use high beam on both when I'm alone on an unlit fast decent at night, with no other traffic on the road.

I've got a pair of 7 lumen rear lights, usually one is enough.

http://www.lezyne.com/product-led-sport-femtorear.php#.VXfUkV49LZs
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: citoyen on June 10, 2015, 08:27:06 am
For the rear, I've been trialling a Bontrager Flare R - it's designed for daytime visibility and has a pretty obnoxious flashing setting for that purpose, with 65 lumen bursts. On the low, non-flashing setting, it's plenty bright enough for night time use and still had lots of juice left after being on all night - hard to quantify but maybe as much as 50%. If I were doing PBP, I'd take a couple of those and have one charging while the other is in use.

There's also a version with a remote ANT+ switch to mount on your handlebars. IWOOT.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on June 10, 2015, 09:16:33 am
They do need to be pointed down a bit, but it's also a design fault, I'd say. The trouble is there is often too much beam above the bright spot. You want that bright spot pointed fairly high up so as to illuminate the road a decent distance ahead of you and avoid making everything else look dark in contrast, but that leaves too much of the beam going up into oncomers' eyes. Insufficient or bad beam shaping. As well as not pointing the things down a bit.

The trouble this is that the person riding with the light is not the person experiencing the light face-on. However, the Edelux II, Edelux, and all the IQ lights meet
 the German lighting regulations and this specifically includes how much light is above the bright spot. As for any dipped beam light, including a car headlight, if it's incorrectly set-up, the light will dazzle oncoming road users.

I have ridden with a lot of people who have these lights with sharp cut-off, but they clearly have aimed the light so that the cut-off is above the horizontal.
That's another problem as well. The regulations tend to favour dazzle-restriction over illumination, but the people using the lights tend to prefer the opposite. Not restricted to bike lights, either. It's conceivable that a more gentle cut-off would result in less dazzle in practice. And then there's the variation in sensitivity of our eyes.

Anyway, a bit OT cos clearly these problems are found in both battery and dynamo lights.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Exit Stage Left on June 10, 2015, 09:24:50 am
Fighting the lighting arms race is a lost cause. You've just got to factor in exposure to blinding lights, and decide whether it's worth putting up with or not.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: citoyen on June 10, 2015, 11:07:16 am
These will last a long time and can be distributed over the bike and worn on helmets:

Fortunately these have non-flashing mode too:

Are you on a commission?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: citoyen on June 10, 2015, 11:11:03 am
I have a pair of Lezyne Deca Drive front lights. Usually one on low beam (250lm/6hrs burn time) is enough...

A retina searing blast of 1800 lumens usually produces a satisfactory result.  :demon:

That looks like a good setup - two Decas is probably a better choice than one Mega. I presume the 1800 lumen blast thing means the Deca has the same "overdrive race" mode as the Mega that allows you to toggle between "economy" and "overdrive" settings. :thumbsup:

Will you carry spare battery packs for PBP?

Quote
As they're on my bars I can place my hand over the top of the lens to create a dip beam effect for other oncoming road users

iirc the Lezyne light bracket also allows a good degree of offset, so you could just as easily twist the light to point more towards the side of the road.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Aunt Maud on June 10, 2015, 11:32:01 am
It's just a push of the button to go between high and low beam, but you need to set it up when you first get the lights with I think its a five second press of the on button, although I can't quite remember exactly. The lights are pointed down a tad, so they don't shine into other peoples eyes too much. They've saved me from hitting Badgers and an Elk, so I'm happy using them despite the extra bit of weight.

I changed the thumb screw on the bracket to an allen head screw and as the lights are mounted either side of the stem with the Garmin in-between I can't really move them to one side. I do the hand over the light thing as a gesture to oncoming vehicles to show that I've dipped my light and expect them to do the same. It's no big deal to do with one hand.

I'll be using both at the weekend on The Pendle, as there are some late night descents, but I might just take one on PBP with a couple of extra batteries. I've got a power bank too if I need more charge and as I'm in the 84 hr group on PBP, I'll try and do all my night riding at just before dawn, so I shouldn't need to use it too much. I certainly don't plan on riding through the night at all, but you never know.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: citoyen on June 10, 2015, 12:22:55 pm
It's just a push of the button to go between high and low beam, but you need to set it up when you first get the lights with I think its a five second press of the on button, although I can't quite remember exactly.

Yep, that's what they call the "overdrive race" mode. It's a useful feature. Otherwise pressing the button cycles between all the different settings.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LEE on August 05, 2015, 01:16:27 pm
I decided to ruin the looks of my Trek Domane and fit a Dynamo touring wheel for PBP.

The convenience of Dynamo lighting outweighing the performance benefits of a non-dynohub wheel for me.

So I did a comparison during the wheel swap.

Bontrager Bladed Spoke wheel - 25mm Conti 4 seasons tyre + B&M IXON battery light + 3 sets of AA batteries(12 in total)

Now

Rigida Chrina, same tyre + Shimano Dynohub + B&M CYO light

The difference is 188grams or 6 ounces heavier.

I can certainly live with that because that's not much more than another set of AAs.

I assume most of the additional weight is at the hub.  Add to that a bit of drag from the dyno through the night of course and it will slow me down.

The question is whether it will slow me down more than stopping to change batteries or/and shop for extra batteries.  i don't really care, it's one less admin task to take care of.

My Mantra is currently "Comfort and Convenience".
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: zigzag on August 05, 2015, 01:32:11 pm
in my case swapping out two aa batteries takes less than 30s; i'll need to do that once or twice. hardly an inconveniece, plus other benefits of seperate lighting and rolling systems.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: simonp on August 05, 2015, 01:46:57 pm
Such as when your front wheel needs to be replaced.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Veloman on August 05, 2015, 01:50:38 pm
Such as when your front wheel needs to be replaced.

Might we assume that unless the 'team car' is following you with a spare for a TdF style quick change, then a wheel would be procured from somewhere that could also supply a light using batteries?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Frank9755 on August 05, 2015, 01:52:15 pm
I agree that the impact of the weight is not likely to be significant, but the power loss with a hub dynamo is far from negligible. 

If it's 5W, given that many riders will ride PBP - at least on the way back - at less than 100W average power, they would be sacrificing > 5% of their available power.  Given a cube relationship, speed will still be >1.6% less, which at 20km/h, equates to 0.32km/h.

Multiply that up by 90 hours and it suggests it is the equivalent of riding an extra 28km.  Unless I've got the maths wrong somewhere, that's not negligible: Zigzag could change a good few batteries in the time it would take you to do that!
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LEE on August 05, 2015, 01:58:47 pm
I won't have the light running for 90 hours, more like 24 hours.

Actually I'm not questioning the efficiency of battery lights, I know there's a downside to dynamos, this is a personal decision, based on what makes me feel most comfortable.

Until this year I rode every Audax with a Dynohub, including PBP 2011.

There's also plenty of time for me to have yet another total lights/Luggage strategy rethink.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Veloman on August 05, 2015, 02:19:24 pm
As a recent user of a dynamo hub (SON Deluxe) and light (Edelux II) I have not noticed a difference regards additional power requirement to maintain my average speed.  I even use it on fast club runs and do not appear to find it anymore difficult to keep-up than when I put the non-dynamo wheel in (same tyres/spokes/rims).  When asked what was the hub, I said it was a Barnes Wallis special design as it resembled a bouncing bomb; I had to point out the light!  It could be I have suddenly got fitter, as the hub undoubtedly generates some drag, but I yet to notice any tangible difference.  Far more effort required to carry kit that is not required or just refill the bidon more often rather than carry unnecessary weight.

What is nice is forgetting about batteries and having more space on the handlebars, or being able to use a small bar bag (Decathlon Velcro strap-on) without it getting in the way oof the light.  Having the light lower down is also better IMO.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: The Wheeler on August 05, 2015, 02:32:31 pm
I use a battery light its more than powerful enough .
But I have it on my helmet so I can use it to read routesheet etc..
I never have it fixed on my bike ,will this be a problem with the bike checkers?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Frank9755 on August 05, 2015, 02:52:16 pm
Yes. 
It also doesn't meet (UK) legal requirements, and is not a very efficient place to have a light as it flattens all the bumps (search for parallax error if you want the physics).
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: marcusjb on August 05, 2015, 03:03:37 pm
I use a battery light its more than powerful enough .
But I have it on my helmet so I can use it to read routesheet etc..
I never have it fixed on my bike ,will this be a problem with the bike checkers?

I suspect that falls foul of the "It must be securely and permanently fixed on the bike," part of regulation 8 I am afraid. 
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Somnolent on August 05, 2015, 03:07:11 pm
And if it's powerful enough to light the road ahead it is way too bright for the routesheet?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: simonp on August 05, 2015, 03:11:56 pm
I've been in the dynohub camp for virtually every audax I've ever ridden (and was using one before I rode my first 200k).

I'm also going to try new shorts out on this ride.

On LEL I tried a new saddle.

Living live on the edge.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LEE on August 05, 2015, 03:27:36 pm
I use a battery light its more than powerful enough .
But I have it on my helmet so I can use it to read routesheet etc..
I never have it fixed on my bike ,will this be a problem with the bike checkers?

I suspect that falls foul of the "It must be securely and permanently fixed on the bike," part of regulation 8 I am afraid.

It will fall foul of the "Stop f***ing looking directly at me with that spotlight on your helmet" Rule.

Though that may just be my rule.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: mmmmartin on August 05, 2015, 03:33:38 pm
It will fall foul of the "Stop f***ing looking directly at me with that spotlight on your helmet" Rule.
Though that may just be my rule.
Not just you rule, it's mine as well. Hint: if you shut one eye you'll find night vision returns very quickly.*


*coppers used to use it when looking at cars in the dark
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Somnolent on August 05, 2015, 04:03:19 pm
OTOH fist/nose interface can be gauged more accurately with both eyes open  :demon:
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Veloman on August 05, 2015, 05:03:06 pm
It will fall foul of the "Stop f***ing looking directly at me with that spotlight on your helmet" Rule.

Though that may just be my rule.

That is a very sensible rule which should be a 'Universal Rule' IMO.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Frank9755 on August 05, 2015, 05:24:52 pm
As a recent user of a dynamo hub (SON Deluxe) and light (Edelux II) I have not noticed a difference regards additional power requirement to maintain my average speed.  I even use it on fast club runs and do not appear to find it anymore difficult to keep-up than when I put the non-dynamo wheel in (same tyres/spokes/rims)...

Having the light lower down is also better IMO.

Agree with having the light lower down.  I do that with a battery one (skewer mount) and it is much more effective at pothole / bump spotting.

That 5W loss (or whatever it is without the lights on) willl be far less significant on a fast club run when you are probably running at over 200W, but when you are struggling along in the middle of the night after 100km and 70 hours, it will be a far higher percentage of your leg power!
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on August 05, 2015, 05:29:18 pm
I don't find lack of leg power to be the problem, more a case of lack of motivation to pedal hard (and hurt a bit).
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Von Broad on August 05, 2015, 06:27:30 pm
I've been in the dynohub camp for virtually every audax I've ever ridden (and was using one before I rode my first 200k).

I'm also going to try new shorts out on this ride.

On LEL I tried a new saddle.

Living live on the edge.

I'm fabricating some carbon fiber stem/handle bars for my recumbent as we speak [so I can use bar end shifters..just].
By the time they're done and I'm ready, I'll probably be trying them for the first time when I roll off the ferry in Dieppe.

This is something I was looking to do after 2007.
If I'm still of this world, the whole project will all be finished by 2019.
If I get a move on.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: marcusjb on August 05, 2015, 06:33:34 pm
^ I now feel supremely organised and ready for PBP as I am not spending the weekend making new components for my bike! 

Good luck VB and see you in Franceland!
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Von Broad on August 05, 2015, 06:36:54 pm
^ I now feel supremely organised and ready for PBP

You most certainly are sir, I've just read the print out in Arrivee. What more does a person need as a check list?
Wow! All bases covered or what. Must take a few pages of an atlas too  :facepalm:  :)
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Kim on August 05, 2015, 06:42:10 pm
The drag of a high-end dynamo hub is small but measurable in real-world situations.  But the effect on performance is roughly equivalent to the aerodynamic advantage of moving your hands from the tops to the hoods.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jsabine on August 05, 2015, 06:50:41 pm
I use a battery light its more than powerful enough .
But I have it on my helmet so I can use it to read routesheet etc..
I never have it fixed on my bike ,will this be a problem with the bike checkers?

As others have said, it'll be a problem with the bike checkers, it's not actually legal here or in France, and it will really, really piss off anyone you end up riding with at night. You'll be a lot more popular if you stick it on the bars or fork crown, and adjust it down so it doesn't dazzle folk. (No flashing rear lights in France either - they must be solid red.)

Dynamo light and a low(ish) powered headtorch for me.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Frank9755 on August 05, 2015, 07:54:22 pm
I consider myself a fairly strong long distance rider and yet on both the 600s I've ridden where I've logged power I've averaged 130-135W for the last 100km. I'm curious to see how much further this drops off over twice the distance, and the only way to do that conveniently is by recording it with a dynohub-powered (  :facepalm: ) Edge 810.

I'm interested to see that, too. 
I don't have any data beyond 450km from my 600 this year (only one I've done with a power meter) as my Garmin got waterlogged at that point, but I was already down to about 130W by then.  I might have just hung on above 100W to the end.  It may well plateau at some point.  I actually just ordered a second battery pack this morning so that I can run my Garmin all the way - without sacrificing an increasing % of my diminishing power!

Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Lars on August 05, 2015, 08:18:09 pm
I'll use my good 'ol bought in 2010 internal battery Exposure MaXx-D LED light plus an external
3-cell battery pack for it.

Worked fine in the two beyond 600 rides I've done to date. And a cheap backup small compact AAA
battery light. And two LED rear lights attached to the bike from the start. And a backup one in the
bag. Not much weight penalty.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: jamesld8 on August 05, 2015, 08:45:36 pm
The drag of a high-end dynamo hub is small but measurable in real-world situations.  But the effect on performance is roughly equivalent to the aerodynamic advantage of moving your hands from the tops to the hoods.

I decided to go with a dynohub setup earlier this year and really have not regretted it one bit---I don`t notice any drag with it off or on. I find it immensely useful to have a front light at disposal at all times with no worry about checking / charging batteries. So in addition to its obvious use at night I`m finding increasingly I`ll just flick it on when riding thro` a local town, on shaded lanes or on a dull day just to give that added bit of visibility as a safety measure.

I thought that I`d end up keeping the dynohub wheel just for winter riding on my winter / disc setup bike and use a standard wheel during mid summer but this has not been the case---in fact I`ve now invested in a SP -PV8 for my lighter / faster bike and this is in place all the time too.  having weighed  ::-) front wheels there` s less than 300gm , ie half a bidon , in it.

So in IMHO it`s a no choice issue  ;D
 Anyone want to buy a set of Fluxient 1000lumen battery lights  ??? ??? ;D Going (fairly) cheap !
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: simonp on August 05, 2015, 09:59:20 pm
I agree that the impact of the weight is not likely to be significant, but the power loss with a hub dynamo is far from negligible. 

If it's 5W, given that many riders will ride PBP - at least on the way back - at less than 100W average power...

I consider myself a fairly strong long distance rider and yet on both the 600s I've ridden where I've logged power I've averaged 130-135W for the last 100km. I'm curious to see how much further this drops off over twice the distance, and the only way to do that conveniently is by recording it with a dynohub-powered (  :facepalm: ) Edge 810.

I’ll be doing it via the use of an iPhone and an external battery pack (or two). Garmin will be reserved for navigational uses, it can’t record power, only HR, and I’ll probably power it off Lithium cells to save on weight and bulk and time spent changing cells.

I doubt very much I’ll be doing 130W average by the end.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: zacklaws on August 05, 2015, 10:47:43 pm
I use a battery light its more than powerful enough .
But I have it on my helmet so I can use it to read routesheet etc..
I never have it fixed on my bike ,will this be a problem with the bike checkers?

I suspect that falls foul of the "It must be securely and permanently fixed on the bike," part of regulation 8 I am afraid.

Just zip tie yourself to your bike then it will be securely and permanently fixed on your bike and if they question it, just say your the mount.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: SR Steve on August 05, 2015, 11:19:47 pm
I used battery lights for the 24 hour TT and powered my Garmin with a Power bank. This was quite successful and I could do the same for the PBP, but the Luxos U gives a great light and I can run my GPS from the USB port. I'm a relatively new convert to hub dynamos and can't actually notice any drag from mine whilst riding.

Being able to see better helps me go faster at night. I have managed with the very worst battery lights in the past and still don't have any really good ones. The ones I used for the 24 were adequate for main roads, but not good enough for laney descents. As for power output dropping off towards the end of the ride, I was 8 hours quicker on the second half of the last PBP so I guess my power output was higher. I just need to work on getting to Brest a lot quicker this year and staying upright would help.

I will have out and back routes in my Garmin, but will have speed, average speed, distance showing most of the time. It will still beep if I go off course. I won't take my phone, but might take a small camera that could be charged via the USB port if needed.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Veloman on August 05, 2015, 11:22:41 pm
.... I won't take my phone, but might take a small camera that could be charged via the USB port if needed.

Does your phone have a camera?  Could it be charged from the USB port if needed?
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: SR Steve on August 06, 2015, 12:13:02 am
.... I won't take my phone, but might take a small camera that could be charged via the USB port if needed.

Does your phone have a camera?  Could it be charged from the USB port if needed?

Yes, but it's bigger than the camera and it reminds me of work so I'll be happy to do without it for a few days. My family will be able to follow my progress on the rider tracking.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Ivo on August 06, 2015, 07:07:31 am
No way a phone can substitute a decent camera. I'll certainly take my DSLR along, just as I did the previous two times. During my first rides I took a disposable or a compact camera but the quality of this is far too low.
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Aunt Maud on August 06, 2015, 08:25:00 am
I might take a camera along. It'll be the first time ever on a ride and I'm hoping to record some of the human wreckage for future character assassination attempts.  :P
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: vorsprung on August 06, 2015, 08:47:48 pm
I've been in the dynohub camp for virtually every audax I've ever ridden (and was using one before I rode my first 200k).

I'm also going to try new shorts out on this ride.

On LEL I tried a new saddle.

Living live on the edge.

I remember in 2007 catching you up because part of your drive train had to be rebuilt in Northern France during the event
Happy days
TBF to you you waited for me while I had a 10 minute kip on a haystack in the rain
Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: simonp on August 07, 2015, 01:41:58 am
You'll note I've not ridden PBP with gears since.  :hand: Cable snapped inside the shifter.

You were really suffering with the dozies. I recall a moto marshall stopping to see if you were ok. You weren't very coherent, I tried to explain you were tired and we'd get some kip. Of course I probably was not coherent either but he left us to get on with it. I lay on the verge but couldn't sleep. I could hear snoring from the haystack. I didn't sleep at all that night (the last).

Title: Re: Lights - Dynamo vs Battery
Post by: Veloman on August 07, 2015, 09:04:35 pm
It is, in many terms a race after all, finish times are recorded...

And you get issued with a number!