Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => Arts and Entertainment => Topic started by: Chris S on April 13, 2015, 11:17:47 am

Title: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Chris S on April 13, 2015, 11:17:47 am
There seems to be a sufficient number of us whiners to warrant a whiny thread of our own - a thread where we can point at a screen and mutter "Oh for Fuck's sake" without attracting ridicule and sniggers from those who simply don't understand!

As it happens, I seem to have a higher threshold than, say, fboab for plot holes. She spots things that I simply don't. We were discussing this yesterday, and decided it was probably because I find it easier  to suspend my disbelief.

The one in Gravity that really gets me (aside from the wrong orbits of the various satellites - you see, I can just blah over that) is where George Clooney "has" to cut himself free of Sandra Bullock. Why? Why does he have to? Why is he accelerating away from her?

It just doesn't make sense...
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mrs Pingu on April 13, 2015, 12:03:51 pm
Interstellar. All of it.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Basil on April 13, 2015, 12:24:54 pm
Ahh, Plot Holes.
I thought this was reading a little odd.  :-[
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 13, 2015, 12:29:54 pm
Interstellar. All of it.

I'll see your Interstellar and raise you The Core.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: ian on April 13, 2015, 12:44:32 pm
Well, the Interstellar gripe is because I'm a secret operative of the Guild of Botanists (we have decoder rings and when the triffids come we won't need glyphosate; oh btw, if you read this, you now have to die, sorry, but it is a secret society). It must truly be hell being a physicist, and not just because of the obligatory tank tops (though I'm sure they don't help). I can generally suspend belief high enough that it refuses absolutely to look down. Anyway, the movie had enough bombastic spectacle to make it entertaining, though I wished they'd not bigged up the 'real science' angle since it wouldn't pass a GCSE. That, and I suspect, some creative dodging to avoid whispering global warming (a bit of Googling reveals that the nutty squad have identified 'hidden' global warming references, proof that you can't even hide the truth from the perspicacity of the truly ignorant).

Anyway, Interstellar was a mere pretender to – oh you started this – Prometheus. Weirdly, I have to watch that movie, it's compulsive, like watching people crash expensive sports cars into hard, non-negotiable objects. There's no one plot hole, they merge. The entire movie is a plot hole. A great, dark swirling mass of nonsense from which no sense can escape. It starts with a backward DNA helix and corkscrews itself into fractal incoherence. I dare anyone to describe any one scene in that movie that even vaguely acknowledges common sense in passing. The plot crosses the road to avoid sense, like it's a charity mugger blocking the pavement. As for individual holes, the entire plot might as well have been carpet bombed by an over-enthusiastic squadron of B52s. I think the popular theory is that it's supposed to be confusing so a sequel can come along and knit it all back and we'll go 'ahh, that's clever'. Hah, that'll be like digging a hole upwards.

There's too many favourites in that movie. There's a fantastic Dan Brown pale-eyed silhouette moment when David, our superintelligent android tries to see a hologram better by shining a torch at it. On that basis, I don't think we'll be welcoming our robot overlords any time soon.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on April 13, 2015, 01:17:37 pm
I'll get my camera out and start photographing my favourite Pot Holes. Will there be a poll to pick the fav pictures or will all submissions be included?

Will they be grouped by location, size or type?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: LEE on April 13, 2015, 01:54:08 pm
My Wife has a superb knack of only pointing out the most tiny of plot holes whilst dealing well with the huge ones.

A (made up, but not exaggerated) example would be along the lines of "A woman would never wear shoes like that on a Spaceship" whilst ignoring the fact she is trying to "restart the Sun with a nuclear Bomb" (See. Danny Boyle's "Sunshine").

While we're on the subject, restarting the Sun?  Really?  If you have the power to do that then you can probably get along fine without it in the first place.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 13, 2015, 02:00:51 pm
My Wife has a superb knack of only pointing out the most tiny of plot holes whilst dealing well with the huge ones.

A (made up, but not exaggerated) example would be along the lines of "A woman would never wear shoes like that on a Spaceship" whilst ignoring the fact they are trying to "restart the Sun with a nuclear Bomb" (See. Danny Boyle's "Sunshine").

Wasn't that an xkcd strip?

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_sun.png) (http://xkcd.com/673/)


Anyway, that falls under the science fiction rule of one suspension of disbelief per story:  You're allowed to have a story where the sun requires jump-starting with a macguffin, but if you do, you have to be *damn* sure to get the shoes and the spaceships right.  Otherwise you end up with The Core.

Or you don't do a science fiction story at all, and the spaceships, nuclear bombs and perhaps even the shoes are incidental.  But it's guaranteed to attract an audience of disappointed people who enjoy threads like this.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 13, 2015, 02:10:06 pm
The whole restarting the sun nonse provides a rich seam of comedy gold for Robin Ince on The Infinite Monkey Cage.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: ian on April 13, 2015, 02:55:33 pm
Intentional plot devices are fine. Everyone wants spaceships to go faster than light, cross solar systems in a few hours, clone dinosaurs from DNA, have antigravity, if it's adds the necessary vroom-vroom to the plot. It's when they (a) add stupidity intentionally (as Kim says, was there any reason at all for the implausible agro-geddon plot of Interstellar when they could have blamed Global Warming, el Niño, or just not bothered as a wormhole to another planet is pretty cool regardless) and (b) unintentional stupidity, which merely sets up a stand to exhibit the scientific illiteracy of the world (everything in Prometheus).
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: red marley on April 13, 2015, 03:04:00 pm
The Imitation Game

Turing and Hut 6 spend years trying to break the Enigma code. Only once they've done it, does Turing and his colleagues consider, apparently for the first time, the implication that they cannot act on their information without giving away their success in breaking the code.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Bledlow on April 13, 2015, 04:15:32 pm
Ah. That well-established principle, known to all military commanders at the time & even earlier (& written about extensively in published works). Note that Turing et al didn't have any control of (or even necessarily know) what was done with their data anyway: they handed over the decrypts & it was up to others to decide what to do with them. There were & are, in any case, workarounds.

It's amazing how many reconnaissance aircraft found things which had already been located by Bletchley, such as supply convoys for Rommel, & were seen to do so by the other side. Astonishing coincidence. Some of them even survived the experience!

This, of course, explained why the RAF and/or RN knew where to go to sink the supply ships.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: citoyen on April 13, 2015, 05:02:23 pm
The Imitation Game

Turing and Hut 6 spend years trying to break the Enigma code. Only once they've done it, does Turing and his colleagues consider, apparently for the first time, the implication that they cannot act on their information without giving away their success in breaking the code.

I'm not picking on anyone in particular here, but I found it interesting to note in the movies thread that certain people had a go at Interstellar while turning a blind eye to the many faults of The Imitation Game - it is riddled with plot holes and inaccuracies, but people seem more prepared to forgive it... because it's not claiming to be science?

I don't know, I don't care, I enjoyed The Imitation Game despite its flaws. Haven't seen Interstellar yet.

Anyway, to get back to the point...

"Who's driving the boat?"
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 13, 2015, 05:20:35 pm
I specifically didn't see The Imitation Game at the cinema because I expect it would make me angry.

Sci-fi silliness is one thing.  Re-writing history (badly, for reasons that can only assumed to be lazy writing) is another.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 13, 2015, 05:25:32 pm
And as for re-writing history to put USAnia in a better light...
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: ian on April 13, 2015, 05:33:17 pm
Well, I assume the bit in the Imitation Game was for dramatic purpose, so Turing and the other fellow could exhibit some tension, as Turing said: I say old chap, we can't let on to the Kraut that have their decoder ring or they'll jolly well be onto us bally-o. Other chap: oh that dashed crushing, Alan, I hate, hate, hate you all, because my brother must die. I'm going to my rooms to have a jolly good sulk. Cue suitable music.

Liam can, of course, drive a boat and fight off bad guys. At the same time. Probably while doing the crossword. We are not worthy.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on April 13, 2015, 07:59:59 pm
I specifically didn't see The Imitation Game at the cinema because I expect it would make me angry.

Sci-fi silliness is one thing.  Re-writing history (badly, for reasons that can only assumed to be lazy writing) is another.
Ditto
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: clarion on April 13, 2015, 10:21:25 pm
And as for re-writing history to put USAnia in a better light...
Objective, Burma!  Errol Flynn liberates Burma single handed (sort of).
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: asterix on April 14, 2015, 07:45:44 am
Spinning off from the 'Imitation Game', 'U571'  gives it more than a run for its money for pure fact-distortion.

I can do no better than to quote (yes, unfortunately it is) the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/film/2009/feb/25/u-571-reel-history):

Quote
At the time of its release, Tony Blair condemned U-571 in parliament as an insult to the Royal Navy. A far more entertaining response would have been for Britain to fund a big-budget revenge epic, in which a small platoon of foppish yet plucky Brits swans over to Vietnam in 1968, defeats the Viet Cong, and wins the war. Moreover, it would be nearly as accurate as this...   ...Verdict
The only honest thing about U-571 is its tagline: "Nine men are about to change history."
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Bledlow on April 14, 2015, 10:58:52 am
Pearl Harbor!

Apart from aircraft being shown which didn't exist until 10 years after the scenes in which they're portrayed, doing things which weren't done with any aircraft at the time, ships which didn't exist until the 1960s, 1950s motor vehicles, radios transmitting clear speech at tens of times their maximum ranges, a nurse who'd apparently become one aged 14, doing something a nurse has never done in the US military, a US pilot saying that a P-40 couldn't outrun a Zero so it'd have to outfight it, which is the exact opposite of the truth (for a P-40 to get into a turning fight with a Zero just about guaranteed a shot-down P-40, but it was significantly faster), at a time when absolutely nobody in the USA had any idea of the performance of the Zero (except that they thought all Japanese aircraft were rubbish), single-engine fighter pilots being trusted to fly multi-engine bombers in action (never happened, & would never even have been considered) & more similar details than one can shake a stick at, many obviously due to simple carelessness but some apparently deliberate, for 'dramatic' purposes, it's  - er - well - crap.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on April 14, 2015, 11:10:02 am
Minority Report - 1) Women who have been kept unconscious in a pool of water for years would not be able to get up and run about as soon as Tom Cruise wakes them up, and 2) if a police officer has gone rogue and gone on the run, surely his employer would revoke his security clearance so he has no need to keep his own eyeball for the scanner?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: ian on April 14, 2015, 11:22:31 am
Every time travel movie ever. Take Terminator, if they sent the Arniebot-100 back to kill John Connor, then Connor wouldn't exist in the future that Arniebot-100 came from, so there'd be no reason to send him back. In fact, the fact that they're sending him back demonstrates that he's absolutely going to fail. Skynet should know this.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on April 14, 2015, 11:40:45 am
Spinning off from the 'Imitation Game', 'U571'  gives it more than a run for its money for pure fact-distortion.

I can do no better than to quote (yes, unfortunately it is) the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/film/2009/feb/25/u-571-reel-history):

Quote
At the time of its release, Tony Blair condemned U-571 in parliament as an insult to the Royal Navy. A far more entertaining response would have been for Britain to fund a big-budget revenge epic, in which a small platoon of foppish yet plucky Brits swans over to Vietnam in 1968, defeats the Viet Cong, and wins the war. Moreover, it would be nearly as accurate as this...   ...Verdict
The only honest thing about U-571 is its tagline: "Nine men are about to change history."
following that link lead me to this, which reads suspiciously like it was written by our Ian: http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2013/feb/06/lisztomania-most-embarrassing-historical-film (http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2013/feb/06/lisztomania-most-embarrassing-historical-film)
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 14, 2015, 12:08:38 pm
Every time travel movie ever. Take Terminator, if they sent the Arniebot-100 back to kill John Connor, then Connor wouldn't exist in the future that Arniebot-100 came from, so there'd be no reason to send him back. In fact, the fact that they're sending him back demonstrates that he's absolutely going to fail. Skynet should know this.

Time travel doesn't exist, so I don't mind stories making up their own rules for it (though that counts as your one suspension of disbelief, so make it count).  They just have to apply them consistently, and dealing with the grandfather paradox is a big part of that.  I don't have a problem with a time traveller effectively creating a parallel universe when they go back in time, so their original timeline remains unaltered.

Terminator works because as far as we know Skynet doesn't yet know if history can be changed, so it seems reasonable enough to try.  The subsequent movies and the excellent Sarah Connor Chronicles show the timeline being altered by various actions without affecting existing time travellers, so it's consistent with the parallel universe model[1].  But the first movie is mostly about Arnie as an unstoppable robot, and time travel is just the macguffin that puts him there.

Back To The Future is worse - that whole thing with Marty's hand disappearing is completely at odds with the alternate timeline of BTTF2 - but the films work because they don't take themselves too seriously.

For time travel stories that attempt to get it right, I recommend Primer.  You'll either love it or hate it.

The less said about Looper the better.  The whole story seems to be a setup for that one shocking re-working of the Marty's hand scene.  The characters do at least hang a lampshade on the fuzzy time travel rules.


[1] The problem becomes one of motivation: Only the actual time traveller can benefit from the new timeline, so Skynet sending soldiers back becomes nonsensical.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 14, 2015, 12:09:58 pm
ISTR the clean-cut All-USAnian hero of Pearl Harbor single-handedly won the Battle of BRITAIN as well.  While it is true that there were three USAnian pilots involved in said conflict I somehow doubt one of them would have gone to all the trouble of getting out of the RAF and crossing the Atlantic to enlist in the US military when there were still plenty of fascists needing wooden overcoats to be found in Europe.  At least one of them was a comsymp and another such a short-arse that he had difficulty seeing out of a fighter unless he was sitting on a parachute.  And I think one of the was KIA, which goes against the Hollywood grain.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: tiermat on April 14, 2015, 12:26:11 pm
I am surprised that The Day After Tomorrow[/b] hasn't made an appearance yet, in this thread.

Firstly the world could NOT cool down that quick, no way.

Secondly how on earth did they get from Chicago to New York (via some other place*) and still approach from the south.  On this topic, how did they manage to walk that distance in THREE days, in arctic conditions?

Thirdly, if you are in New York Central Library, the sea, and harbour, are to the EAST, so jumping on a ship which is passing, coming from the east, and hoping to get to the sea is a bit of a no hoper.

*I can't remember the other place, but it is to the north west of New York)
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 14, 2015, 12:32:45 pm
Independence Day.  Even the most 1337 of h@xx0r5 would have been hard-pressed to unravel Alien-OS to the extent of writing a virus for it in that length of time.  And they probably wouldn't have used a Mac for doing it either.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: spesh on April 14, 2015, 12:38:53 pm
Time travel doesn't exist, so I don't mind stories making up their own rules for it (though that counts as your one suspension of disbelief, so make it count).  They just have to apply them consistently, and dealing with the grandfather paradox is a big part of that.  I don't have a problem with a time traveller effectively creating a parallel universe when they go back in time, so their original timeline remains unaltered.

That was how Deja Vu (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0453467/) tried avoiding falling past the plot hole event horizon:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0453467/faq#.2.1.4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deja_Vu_Timeline.GIF
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: fboab on April 14, 2015, 12:41:06 pm
Minority Report - 1) Women who have been kept unconscious in a pool of water for years would not be able to get up and run about as soon as Tom Cruise wakes them up, and 2) if a police officer has gone rogue and gone on the run, surely his employer would revoke his security clearance so he has no need to keep his own eyeball for the scanner?

This is one of my big ones.
I spent six weeks in traction and had to re-learn how to walk. It really does not take long for all your muscles to atrophy.

See also: loads of other films where people run away super speedily without any training whatsover.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: spesh on April 14, 2015, 12:45:55 pm
I am surprised that The Day After Tomorrow[/b] hasn't made an appearance yet, in this thread.

Well it's probably due to everyone who wasted a small, but significant, part of their lives watching it having their memories thereof deleted and then over-written to NSA-approved standards.   ;)
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: T42 on April 14, 2015, 01:01:16 pm
Independence Day.  Even the most 1337 of h@xx0r5 would have been hard-pressed to unravel Alien-OS to the extent of writing a virus for it in that length of time.  And they probably wouldn't have used a Mac for doing it either.

Yeah, but it was nice when his laptop said "Good morning, Dave".
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 14, 2015, 01:11:49 pm
My Windows desktop box used to say "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that" and "Just what do you think you are doing, Dave?" at (in)appropriate times, but the best piece of moving-picture spoddery in recent years was in Aussie conspiracy thriller "The Code"; the chest-cam footage of one copper during a police raid identified him as "Sgt. L. Torvalds" :D
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 14, 2015, 01:14:58 pm
I am surprised that The Day After Tomorrow[/b] hasn't made an appearance yet, in this thread.

Firstly the world could NOT cool down that quick, no way.

Do cheesy disaster movie premises count as plot holes?

If so, I nominate Volcano.  Positively brilliant in its implausibility.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: LEE on April 14, 2015, 11:10:16 pm
Do cheesy disaster movie premises count as plot holes?

Cheesy movies with plot holes?

Emmental Movies.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on April 15, 2015, 01:05:17 pm
Are there any movies with an accurate depiction of hacking?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 15, 2015, 01:22:38 pm
Are there any movies with an accurate depiction of hacking?

Unlikely, but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51lGCTgqE_w

Clear and Present Danger has that scene where the 1337 CIA analyst, instead of using some MovieOS super cracking program, starts manually trying passwords based on birth dates in the villain's file, Jack Ryan eyerolls and walks off, and he arrives at the right combination before Jack leaves the room.  This is unfortunately cancelled out by the later scene with the race to the <Print Screen> button.

I'll also nominate Sneakers, which has a standard implausible code-breaking macguffin driving the plot, but gets an uncharacteristic number of the smaller details right, particularly with regard to social engineering.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Wascally Weasel on April 15, 2015, 01:25:12 pm
Are there any movies with an accurate depiction of hacking?

Considering how old it is Wargames isn't bad - although I think it's technically cracking rather than hacking in that case?

It's got mentions of back doors and shows Lightman logging in to his school admin computer by simply finding out where they write down the password.  I think the 'current' one in the film is pencil.

One thing they didn't have when it was made was voice synthesisers as good as the one in the movie, they got the same actor who played Professor Falken to read all of the words individually and then processed them a bit and stuck them into meaningful sentences.

The dvd commentary is pretty good on all this stuff, I loved the bit where the makers said that the real NORAD people claimed that the movie set of their Cheyenne Mountain base was way better than the real thing and that they would have loved a base that size.

Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: essexian on April 15, 2015, 01:32:38 pm
I forget the name of the film…it was out about 10 years ago and concerned an asteroid hitting the Earth (somewhere over the USA of course) before killing us all to “DETH”…….

I got told off for shouting at the part where the asteroid flies in at about 10mph…well it seems that slow as people have the time to get to the hills to try and avoid it. Problem with that being that the Asteroid is likely to be as large as the atmosphere is deep and is likely to travel at many thousands of miles an hour. Thus, unlike the recent Russian meteorite explosion, there won’t be any time to take a nice photo. Finally, even if there was, the shockwave the rock would produce would wipe anything in the way out as it arrived.

Shocking film…almost as bad as Jumpers!   
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 15, 2015, 01:43:26 pm
Are there any movies with an accurate depiction of hacking?

Considering how old it is Wargames isn't bad - although I think it's technically cracking rather than hacking in that case?

Good call.  The main blooper is war-dialling with an acoustic coupler modem (which as any fule know can't take the phone on/off hook), but I'll forgive that as, quite reasonably, the acoustic coupler served to illustrate what a modem was to an audience who wouldn't have been familiar with the concept.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 15, 2015, 01:46:07 pm
The dvd commentary is pretty good on all this stuff, I loved the bit where the makers said that the real NORAD people claimed that the movie set of their Cheyenne Mountain base was way better than the real thing and that they would have loved a base that size.

(Boggles)

It take about twenty minutes to drive past the place though to be scrupulously fair that's more a reflection on the traffic in Colorado Springs.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 15, 2015, 01:47:15 pm
I forget the name of the film…it was out about 10 years ago and concerned an asteroid hitting the Earth (somewhere over the USA of course) before killing us all to “DETH”…….

I got told off for shouting at the part where the asteroid flies in at about 10mph…well it seems that slow as people have the time to get to the hills to try and avoid it.

Deep Impact.

That was the credible one (I'll forgive it the high hobbit content, on the basis that the spaceship used an Orion drive and they had Morgan Freeman as president).  Armageddon - the Bruce Willis one - came out at around the same time, and was orders of magnitude worse.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Wascally Weasel on April 15, 2015, 02:24:27 pm
Are there any movies with an accurate depiction of hacking?

Considering how old it is Wargames isn't bad - although I think it's technically cracking rather than hacking in that case?

Good call.  The main blooper is war-dialling with an acoustic coupler modem (which as any fule know can't take the phone on/off hook), but I'll forgive that as, quite reasonably, the acoustic coupler served to illustrate what a modem was to an audience who wouldn't have been familiar with the concept.

It seemed to have been written by someone with some knowledge of the subject (as it was by that date).  I think there was more detail that was edited out, as there are references to the Phone Phreakers and other things in the (quite good) novelised version – he refers to Jim Sting, the guy he goes to for advice as ‘Cap’n Crunch’ for e.g.

In the book version he was playing Missile Command in the arcade at the start instead of Galaga which was a more apposite choice of game I thought – was probably considered dated at the time.

I think I could probably give the Flicksynch game of Wargames from ‘Ready Player One’ a damn good go!
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Wascally Weasel on April 15, 2015, 02:31:00 pm
I forget the name of the film…it was out about 10 years ago and concerned an asteroid hitting the Earth (somewhere over the USA of course) before killing us all to “DETH”…….

I got told off for shouting at the part where the asteroid flies in at about 10mph…well it seems that slow as people have the time to get to the hills to try and avoid it.

Deep Impact.

That was the credible one (I'll forgive it the high hobbit content, on the basis that the spaceship used an Orion drive and they had Morgan Freeman as president).  Armageddon - the Bruce Willis one - came out at around the same time, and was orders of magnitude worse.

Deep Impact or Armageddon?  HAL or WOPR? Those are the sort of questions I should have asked at cycle speed dating!
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 15, 2015, 02:35:16 pm
Deep Impact or Armageddon?  HAL or WOPR? Those are the sort of questions I should have asked at cycle speed dating!

I vaguely recall a "Cats or dogs?  12 or 24 hour clock?" conversation soon after I met barakta.  "Star Trek or Babylon 5?" wasn't even a question.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on April 15, 2015, 03:16:34 pm
Deep Impact or Armageddon?  HAL or WOPR? Those are the sort of questions I should have asked at cycle speed dating!

I vaguely recall a "Cats or dogs?  12 or 24 hour clock?" conversation soon after I met barakta.  "Star Trek or Babylon 5?" wasn't even a question.
Probably cats. They are smart enough to use mole-hill holes as toilets.

24, of course.

Never watched babylon 5, sorry.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mattc on April 15, 2015, 08:06:09 pm
Deep Impact or Armageddon?  HAL or WOPR? Those are the sort of questions I should have asked at cycle speed dating!

I vaguely recall a "Cats or dogs?  12 or 24 hour clock?" conversation soon after I met barakta.  "Star Trek or Babylon 5?" wasn't even a question.
Just when this thread was starting to bore me s**tless ...

:D
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: LEE on April 17, 2015, 09:07:28 am
Independence Day.  Even the most 1337 of h@xx0r5 would have been hard-pressed to unravel Alien-OS to the extent of writing a virus for it in that length of time.  And they probably wouldn't have used a Mac for doing it either.

For future reference.  All alien craft have now moved on to a USB 2.0 interface in order to slow down any attempt to install a virus while the hacker tries to figure out which way round the damn plug goes.

They tried RJ45 but got sick of the little release tab snagging on all the other cables like an annoying bastard grappling-hook (and didn't want to pay extra for the little rubber anti-snag jackets).

Edit. Surely any redesign of the Grappling-Hook should look not unlike an RJ45 plug.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 17, 2015, 09:35:04 am
It's a good job they didn't have USB in "Star Wars" coz R2-D2 would still have been trying to plug himself into Luke's fighter when Darth Vader rocked up and blew them all utterly to DETH and what a good idea that would have been.

(Flees the Wrath of the forum's Spod Hordes)
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on April 17, 2015, 10:10:03 am
Just imagine if the ports had been designed by Apple. Every 6 months a totally new incompatible port would be created. R2D2 would have been converted to an umbrella stand.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Wascally Weasel on April 17, 2015, 10:17:33 am
It's a good job they didn't have USB in "Star Wars" coz R2-D2 would still have been trying to plug himself into Luke's fighter when Darth Vader rocked up and blew them all utterly to DETH and what a good idea that would have been.

(Flees the Wrath of the forum's Spod Hordes)

It's a big tough galaxy out there and sometimes the Emperor has to be brutal firm.  I think the bit in ROTJ where the rebel scum sided with a bunch of aboriginal fucking teddy bears marked the beginning of my personal journey to the Dark Side.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: fboab on April 17, 2015, 07:00:17 pm
Here in pedants' corner Volvo someone has just pointed out that  Lions Don't live in the jungle.  (http://youtu.be/0cD9cBEaNBc)

Sigh.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 17, 2015, 09:58:18 pm
Perhaps they go there on holibobs...
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 17, 2015, 10:04:22 pm
Nahh, they only *sleep* in the jungle, commuting to the savanna for the day job.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 17, 2015, 10:19:04 pm
I vaguely recall a "Cats or dogs?  12 or 24 hour clock?" conversation soon after I met barakta.  "Star Trek or Babylon 5?" wasn't even a question.

Tim: Derek? Babylon 5's a big pile of shit!
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on April 17, 2015, 10:24:26 pm
Get out!
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 18, 2015, 08:59:21 am
Hooray!
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Steph on April 19, 2015, 09:05:22 am
And as for re-writing history to put USAnia in a better light...
Objective, Burma!  Errol Flynn liberates Burma single handed (sort of).

Filmed in Australia with Chinese extras, who speak Japanese with Chinese accents. The birdsong is Australian; I could hear golden whistlers, honeyeaters and trillers, and, several times, a kookaburra.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on April 24, 2015, 02:01:59 pm
We have been given cause to wonder why, in the first-born of the "Star Wars" franchise, those in command of the DETH Star did not simply blow the planet Yavin into little tiny pieces and take out Yavin 4, and the rebel scum on it, in the process.

Oh, wait, that may contain SCIENCE or traces of SCIENCE.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Chris S on April 24, 2015, 02:11:55 pm
Probably for the same or similar reasons Frodo didn't just ride a feckin' Eagle to Mount Doom and lob the wretched ring in.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: spesh on April 24, 2015, 02:38:12 pm
We have been given cause to wonder why, in the first-born of the "Star Wars" franchise, those in command of the DETH Star did not simply blow the planet Yavin into little tiny pieces and take out Yavin 4, and the rebel scum on it, in the process.

Oh, wait, that may contain SCIENCE or traces of SCIENCE.

<geek_ON>

IIRC, the whilst the moon on which the Rebel Scum had set up base was made of rock, the planet it was orbiting was a gas giant, which might have required more than one shot from the DETH Star's giant frikkin'... <hand gesture> lazr to go KABOOM with enough alacrity to reduce property values on Yavin 4 down to those typical for Moss Side.

So with Grand Moff Tarkin Marvin going, "Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to be a Yavin-shattering KABOOM!", and the giant frikkin'... <hand gesture> lazr's power supply needing a day to recharge, there's still time for a farm-boy to make the million-to-one shot that occurs nine times out of ten.

Might as well go for accelerating Yavin 4's crust and mantle to escape velocity from the start.

<geek_OFF>
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: LEE on April 24, 2015, 03:02:55 pm
<geek_OFF>

Really?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: spesh on April 24, 2015, 03:13:05 pm
Yes, really.

FWIW, Mr Larrington asked a question, I chose to answer it, though there should be enough textual clues in that post as to how seriously I was taking said exercise.

Got a problem with that?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Chris S on June 11, 2015, 06:43:37 pm
In the battle scene, right at the start of Lord of The Rings Pt 1 (Fellowship of the Ring): Why doesn't wearing the one ring make Sauron invisible?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: redshift on June 11, 2015, 08:54:27 pm
Actually, that's partly explained in the books.  The rings of power confer said power with relevance to ability or inherent power of the user, plus in the First and Second Ages Sauron had no reason to be invisible - indeed early on his appearance was described as 'fair'.  That's why the White Council are so afraid of it (apart from Saruman, who wants to wield it and thinks he'll get away with it) - they'd be able to actually use it rather than it use them, only gradually their power would be turned to evil.  Hobbits and the like only get the superficial stuff as the ring makes its way up the chain back to Sauron.  Incidentally in the book Tom Bombadil, for whom power is irrelevant, shows himself to be impervious to the ring, but equally can't be entrusted with it because he'd forget the relevance, and eventually the ring would work its way back to its master.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Vince on June 11, 2015, 09:17:56 pm
Independence Day.  Even the most 1337 of h@xx0r5 would have been hard-pressed to unravel Alien-OS to the extent of writing a virus for it in that length of time.  And they probably wouldn't have used a Mac for doing it either.
Its a proof of galactic standards when every alien space craft has a USB socket on the bridge console and that Bill Gates stole the original version of Windows from the Roswell crash.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: spesh on June 11, 2015, 09:38:55 pm
I forget the name of the film…it was out about 10 years ago and concerned an asteroid hitting the Earth (somewhere over the USA of course) before killing us all to “DETH”…….

I got told off for shouting at the part where the asteroid flies in at about 10mph…well it seems that slow as people have the time to get to the hills to try and avoid it.

Deep Impact.

That was the credible one (I'll forgive it the high hobbit content, on the basis that the spaceship used an Orion drive and they had Morgan Freeman as president).  Armageddon - the Bruce Willis one - came out at around the same time, and was orders of magnitude worse.

For a given value of credible.

http://io9.com/a-scientist-responds-to-deep-impact-1709206458
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on June 11, 2015, 09:53:01 pm
For a given value of credible.

http://io9.com/a-scientist-responds-to-deep-impact-1709206458

Well yes.  It's only credible when considered alongside Armageddon.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Wascally Weasel on June 12, 2015, 11:56:25 am
For a given value of credible.

http://io9.com/a-scientist-responds-to-deep-impact-1709206458

Well yes.  It's only credible when considered alongside Armageddon.

And all of these are better than Meteor
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Bledlow on June 14, 2015, 12:33:22 pm
One of the problems with long-running soaps is keeping the story straight -
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/kevin-webster-forgets-babys-death-5876231#rlabs=1 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/kevin-webster-forgets-babys-death-5876231#rlabs=1).
Character forgets the death of his own child & subsequent suicide of his wife.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Legs on June 18, 2015, 03:32:43 pm
That was how Deja Vu (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0453467/) tried avoiding falling past the plot hole event horizon:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0453467/faq#.2.1.4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deja_Vu_Timeline.GIF
Someone put some serious effort into analysing that one.  Me, I just enjoyed the fillum.

If you enjoy mindbendingly confuddling timetravel DONE WELL, Los Cronocrímenes (Timecrimes) is really superb (and a little bit scary).
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on June 18, 2015, 03:49:21 pm
One of the problems with long-running soaps is keeping the story straight -
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/kevin-webster-forgets-babys-death-5876231#rlabs=1 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/kevin-webster-forgets-babys-death-5876231#rlabs=1).
Character forgets the death of his own child & subsequent suicide of his wife.  :facepalm:
To be fair, he hadn't had the baby long when it died, and his wife was a drip.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mrs Pingu on June 23, 2015, 09:54:23 pm
Interstellar. All of it.

So on BBC "news" tonight there was an article about how said film should be shown in schools because it has generated a new discovery in science.
Allegedly the design company who did the graphics for the singularity used "physics" in their computer model and therefore it is the first real image of what one actually looks like.


Oh RLY?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on June 23, 2015, 10:01:11 pm
I eagerly await a low-budget science fiction film where someone works out how to use quantum handwaving to make the guff that university PR departments write actually real.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mrs Pingu on June 23, 2015, 10:30:02 pm
I initially read that as quantum handwriting and wondered what that was.. ;D
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on June 23, 2015, 10:33:41 pm
I initially read that as quantum handwriting and wondered what that was.. ;D

I've no idea, but I'm sure there's a film script or two in it...
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mrs Pingu on June 23, 2015, 10:39:10 pm
Interstellar. All of it.

So on BBC "news" tonight there was an article about how said film should be shown in schools because it has generated a new discovery in science.
Allegedly the design company who did the graphics for the singularity used "physics" in their computer model and therefore it is the first real image of what one actually looks like.


Oh RLY?

Hmm OK, having read this article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-33173197, it does sound like there might actually have been some actual real live scientists involved, although that doesn't rule out large helpings of sexing up.
Shame the original TV article I saw basically just said "woo, science, bitches!"
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Kim on June 23, 2015, 11:04:27 pm
it does sound like there might actually have been some actual real live scientists involved, although that doesn't rule out large helpings of sexing up.

Sunshine.  Brain Cox.  'nuff said.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 25, 2015, 10:09:42 am
I eagerly await a low-budget science fiction film where someone works out how to use quantum handwaving to make the guff that university PR departments write actually real.
Isn't that the infinite improbability drive?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Oaky on June 25, 2015, 10:33:28 am
...

Hmm OK, having read this article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-33173197, it does sound like there might actually have been some actual real live scientists involved,

Notably, Kip Thorne, one of the co-authors of one of the canonical books on General Relativity.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gravitation-Physics-Series-Charles-Misner/dp/0716703440

A book so large it generates its own interesting gravitational effects.  I soooo wanted to own a copy when I was a penniless student oaf.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: tiermat on June 25, 2015, 10:33:50 am
I initially read that as quantum handwriting and wondered what that was.. ;D

Surely that is just very very very small writing?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Si_Co on June 25, 2015, 10:51:09 am
I initially read that as quantum handwriting and wondered what that was.. ;D

Surely that is just very very very small writing?

Quantum.....as in discrete, not continuous....so not joined up...printing yes?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Guy on June 25, 2015, 11:07:39 am
Back to Plot Holes.

Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter, in which they make thaasands and thaasands of silver bullets for the Union soldiers to fire at the Confederate vampires at Gettysburg.

Er. Silver bullets don't work on vampires. They're for werewolves you dolts :facepalm:
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 25, 2015, 11:12:01 am
Hemlock Grove. A werewolf is tortured by having quicksilver dripped into his wounds.

I bet there were a few people on set ranting about that.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Guy on June 25, 2015, 11:31:32 am
Yebbut, quicksilver is mercury what is an nasty stuffs, and poissonous to most (all?) living things. Even imaginary ones.

'Tis not such a blatant FAIL as silver bullets for vampires. (Though screenplay writer mistaking Hg for Ag is pretty dumb.)
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 25, 2015, 12:20:51 pm
Yebbut, quicksilver is mercury what is an nasty stuffs, and poissonous to most (all?) living things. Even imaginary ones.

'Tis not such a blatant FAIL as silver bullets for vampires. (Though screenplay writer mistaking Hg for Ag is pretty dumb.)
yebbut the scene includes the villain explaining that this is the only substance toxic to werewolves.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Guy on June 25, 2015, 12:39:38 pm
yebbut the scene includes the villain explaining that this is the only substance toxic to werewolves.
:facepalm: :facepalm:

Wasn't the same hignoramus wot wrote Abe Lincoln was it?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on June 25, 2015, 04:25:30 pm
Notably, Kip Thorne, one of the co-authors of one of the canonical books on General Relativity.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gravitation-Physics-Series-Charles-Misner/dp/0716703440

A book so large it generates its own interesting gravitational effects.  I soooo wanted to own a copy when I was a penniless student oaf.

(Goes to the Mega-Global Sounds Like A Big River Corporation of Seattle, USAnia's webby SCIENCE)

That's not large.  This is large:

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/473/19123167716_652fec59cf_z_d.jpg)

The Group B one, obv.  About the same size as an mATX PC case but a lot heavier.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: red marley on June 25, 2015, 06:53:37 pm
That's not large. This is large (http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/06/19/meet-print-wikipedia/).
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Feanor on June 27, 2015, 10:28:20 pm
Junior has just been watching 'Interstellar', and I've been dipping in and out of it.
It's like a movie-dude got stoned, and tried to make a film of Neil Young's 'After the Gold Rush'.

Anyways, the premise is the Earth is doomed, so we need to fly mother nature's silver seed to a new home in the sun.
So off we go house-hunting, via a convenient worm-hole just off the Saturn by-pass.

So we need a 1960 style Saturn-V with thousands of tons of fuel to leave earth, and dock our dinky lander module to the mothership which is waiting in Earth orbit.
We then drive to Saturn, get on the by-pass, and hang a right at the wormhole intersection.
When we get off at the wormhole exit, there are several planets we need to visit, using the dinky lander module.
All of them have earth-like gravity, and yet we don't need a Saturn-V to return to the mothership.
Just the dinky lander module's Movie-Thrusters which need no fuel.

One of the worlds we visit is close to a black hole.
This means that the time dilation effect between the mothership and the lander is something like 1 hour on the planet's surface is 7 years on the orbiting mothership.
WTF?
To put this in context...
We need a Saturn-V rocket and thousand of tons of fuel to escape from the gravitational gradient created by the Earth, which creates a time dilation effect which requires *atomic clocks* to measure, because it's so tiny.
A time dilation as required by this movie would require such a gravity gradient, that no number of Saturn-Vs could bring you back from the depths of the gravity-well you were in; but Movie-Thrusters seem up to the challenge.

Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mrs Pingu on June 28, 2015, 05:54:56 pm
^ refers the right honourable member to page 1 of this thread.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Jakob W on June 28, 2015, 09:20:32 pm
What is that Group B set? It's not a very Googleable title...
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: simonp on June 29, 2015, 01:02:00 am
Interstellar. All of it.

http://www.iflscience.com/space/interstellar-should-be-shown-school-classrooms

Edit: I see we did that.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: simonp on June 29, 2015, 01:20:50 am
Manon des Sources. Great film. The scene with the blind woman in particular.

However, I don't think you can dam a subterranean river that easily.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on June 29, 2015, 07:55:34 pm
What is that Group B set? It's not a very Googleable title...

Group B owners Exition (http://www.thegroupbbook.com/site.php?c=1&l=1).  Pretty sure it's sold out.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Jakob W on June 30, 2015, 10:02:50 am
That looks very shiny, expensive, and somewhat, er, specialist.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on December 17, 2015, 06:57:24 pm
I have just used SCIENCE to uncover a massive1 plot hole in popular television series "Life On Mars", this being that the only Manchester derby in 1973 was played in April so how come Hawkwind's "Urban Guerilla" was being played in the pub two nights before the game when it was only on sale for three weeks in July and August of that year ???

1: FSVO "massive", obv.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Chris S on December 17, 2015, 07:01:29 pm
I have just used SCIENCE to uncover a massive1 plot hole in popular television series "Life On Mars", this being that the only Manchester derby in 1973 was played in April so how come Hawkwind's "Urban Guerilla" was being played in the pub two nights before the game when it was only on sale for three weeks in July and August of that year ???

1: FSVO "massive", obv.

You have way too much time on your hands, for one so talented. Written That Book (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=77660.0) yet?  :demon:

I have ££s waiting!
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on December 17, 2015, 08:52:53 pm
I'm not convinced Sam Tyler could have had a Casio analogue quartz watch in 1973 either ;D
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: mattc on January 03, 2016, 05:43:28 pm
https://m.facebook.com/TheOriginalBestOfTumblr/photos/a.252727674878437.1073741825.252714998213038/1284890794995448/?type=3&source=48&refid=28&_ft_=qid.6235616160958987789%3Amf_story_key.6428719584208480769&__tn__=E

(if that fails, i'll post the tumblr link ... )
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: T42 on January 04, 2016, 01:19:19 pm
Peaky Blinders: the age of majority was 21 until 1970, which *cks up a chunk of series 2.  Filter-tipped fags didn't become common in the UK until after WW2; and the head thug would never have struck a match away from himself.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: T42 on January 06, 2016, 06:54:01 am
Mr. S. King's opus Under the Dome: when all the O2 has been exhausted by the combustion of Big Jim's propane (butane?) hoard, a plucky band of suffocating survivors pile into a van and drive off.  But if no O2 is available outside the passenger compartment, how does the engine run?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Jakob W on January 07, 2016, 02:48:10 pm
Peaky Blinders: [...] and the head thug would never have struck a match away from himself.

Forgive my ignorance, but how come?
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: T42 on January 07, 2016, 05:40:21 pm
^^^ It was held to be the way a woman struck a match, away from her dress, whereas a man had the courage to strike it towards himself.  That was still common in the 60s.
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Tim Hall on May 19, 2016, 01:15:04 pm
Just finished Chris Brookmyre's "When The Devil Drives".

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: Mr Larrington on May 19, 2016, 01:21:16 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The YACF Bumper book of Plot Holes
Post by: rogerzilla on May 20, 2016, 09:48:05 pm
Could be Bluetooth?

When I proofread the MS for All Fun And Games Until Someone Loses An Eye (yes, really, check the credits page) I had to explain to Chris how car airbags worked, and he rewrote the scene in question.  You can't be pinned in your seat by an airbag, because they are already deflating when you faceplant into them.