Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: Jaded on May 07, 2015, 03:48:52 pm

Title: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: Jaded on May 07, 2015, 03:48:52 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-32622582

It is still slower than the bicycle record, I think.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: LEE on May 07, 2015, 04:04:50 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-32622582

It is still slower than the bicycle record, I think.

Maybe they weren't pedalling on the back*

Tandemers love it when you shout that so I encourage everyone to do so (just in case they haven't heard it before).
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on May 07, 2015, 04:11:42 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-32622582

It is still slower than the bicycle record, I think.
Correct, Getihn's time was 44 hours, 4 minutes and 20 seconds
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: Jakob W on May 07, 2015, 04:19:44 pm
Any obvious reason why? Is it a lumpy route?
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: Gus on May 07, 2015, 04:21:09 pm
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/tandem-duo-smash-non-stop-lejog-record-169994 (http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/tandem-duo-smash-non-stop-lejog-record-169994)
Maxing out at 58 mph ??? No wonder they didn't break the best ever time.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on May 07, 2015, 04:29:32 pm
I'd imagine that is bloody difficult to produce sustained peak performance for that long on a tandem. Much easier on a solo.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: marcusjb on May 07, 2015, 04:51:08 pm
Astonishing achievement. 

Took Dom 3 goes to get it right, and they certainly did. 

Massive chapeau to them - that's one of the longer standing records out there absolutely smashed.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: Karla on May 07, 2015, 10:11:39 pm
Some of the failures have been pretty good athletes too: James Cracknell, Rebecca Romero and Glenn Longland aren't known for being weak.

Lots of videos on the a3crg facebook group.

Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: Exit Stage Left on May 08, 2015, 12:45:57 am
The mixed tandem is a different proposition, as it's held by Andy Wilkinson and Lynne Taylor.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: mattc on May 08, 2015, 06:54:56 am
I'd imagine that is bloody difficult to produce sustained peak performance for that long on a tandem. Much easier on a solo.
The stats (for this route) support you - but for me I'd love to know "Why?"

They are much much faster over the shorter distances. And pedalling stamina is pedalling stamina. Isn't it?  :-\

/neverriddenone
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 08, 2015, 08:00:46 am
A tandem team's 'bad patches' never coincide. That means more time when the team isn't travelling at full speed.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: fboab on May 08, 2015, 08:50:21 am
What LW&B said.
You can get away, as amateurs on fun rides, where one of you 'carries' the other for some of it (I have better stamina than Mr Smith, I'm almost always pushing harder at the end). Both being on top form for the whole ride is nigh on impossible. And when you're both struggling your team performance is worse than one rider flagging on a solo.

They took a big chunk off the previous record. Awesome.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: mattc on May 08, 2015, 10:30:14 am
From a pure science POV, that makes no sense. A solo rider isn't at full speed for the whole 2 days either.
With 2 of you, the "on it" rider will compensate a little for the grumpy rider, so the bad patches should be faster than a solo's bad patches (
A tandem team's 'bad patches' never coincide.
)

Or in other words; it should all balance out over the 2 days.

What am I missing?!?
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: fboab on May 08, 2015, 10:58:59 am
When the 'on' rider is carrying the 'off' rider they are not faster than a solo.
So for simplicity let's say ++=25mph, +-=18mph and - - =15mph.
A solo rider is +=22mph and -=17mph.
The tandem has more time at +- & - - than the solo does at -.
 


Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: mattc on May 08, 2015, 12:13:00 pm
That assumes that 2 "off" riders are slower on a tandem than on 2 solos.

(hence your examples of 15 vs 17).

I dont see why that would be the case. on flat-ish courses, tandems are a more efficient way of getting 2xhumans around. it shouldn't matter whether its 2xWiggos or 2xfboabs.

Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: fboab on May 08, 2015, 01:33:51 pm
Even on a flat-ish course 2 off riders are slower than on a solo. I think it's because you end up 'fighting' each other- the tiny differences in cadence work against you, and even the slightest up slope means you're both working harder for less benefit.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 08, 2015, 01:36:53 pm
You stick with supposition mattc. I'll stick with experience.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: Exit Stage Left on May 08, 2015, 01:57:06 pm
Are there any instances where the tandem record is faster than the solo?
On the road the frontal area advantages are offset by the sidewind disadvantages.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: rob on May 08, 2015, 02:29:34 pm
Are there any instances where the tandem record is faster than the solo?
On the road the frontal area advantages are offset by the sidewind disadvantages.

In CTT records up to 100 miles (only looked at mens), but there's not a huge amount in it -roughly 4mins on the 100.   The solo 12hr and 24hr distances are further.

*EDIT* Tandem 10 record is 1s slower than Dowsett's record of last year. 
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on May 08, 2015, 02:39:53 pm
I reckon a lot of it will be due to the rider's being coupled by the timing chain. It's like a fixed gear bike where the rider doesn't have an even pedal stroke - they are fighting each other.

For a short period, two well trained people could pedal in sync. Over a longer period they will (to a small degree) be fighting one-another, particularly when trying to sustain high output.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: mattc on May 08, 2015, 03:37:40 pm
Are there any instances where the tandem record is faster than the solo?
On the road the frontal area advantages are offset by the sidewind disadvantages.

In CTT records up to 100 miles (only looked at mens), but there's not a huge amount in it -roughly 4mins on the 100.   The solo 12hr and 24hr distances are further.

*EDIT* Tandem 10 record is 1s slower than Dowsett's record of last year.
And if you look at year-on-year, until a few years ago I think the 10 tandem was faster.

Dowsett is certainly in a different class to the tandem riders he has beaten. I'm pretty certain that Dowsett+Wiggo+practice could knock any short-distance solo record for 6.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: rob on May 08, 2015, 03:47:26 pm
I don't really doubt it.  When Taylor/Carr did a lot of tandem TTs they buddied up and trained specifically.   The Yates/Carr (12hr) and Yates/Hutchinson (25) records were put together quite late, or so I read in the comic at the time.

What the stats do show, though is that the solos start to have the advantage as the distances go up with the 12hr record being 12 miles further and the 24hr record 40 miles further.   I do think a trained and practiced pairing could manage way more than 501 miles in a 24hr.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: mattc on May 08, 2015, 06:58:41 pm
Even on a flat-ish course 2 off riders are slower than on a solo. I think it's because you end up 'fighting' each other- the tiny differences in cadence work against you, and even the slightest up slope means you're both working harder for less benefit.

I reckon a lot of it will be due to the rider's being coupled by the timing chain. It's like a fixed gear bike where the rider doesn't have an even pedal stroke - they are fighting each other.

For a short period, two well trained people could pedal in sync. Over a longer period they will (to a small degree) be fighting one-another, particularly when trying to sustain high output.
OK, that sounds perfectly feasible.  :thumbsup:

I doubt its the whole answer - we need Dowsett/Wiggo to put serious training into an attempt to get that :)
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: Exit Stage Left on May 08, 2015, 07:55:12 pm
I don't really doubt it.  When Taylor/Carr did a lot of tandem TTs they buddied up and trained specifically.   The Yates/Carr (12hr) and Yates/Hutchinson (25) records were put together quite late, or so I read in the comic at the time.

What the stats do show, though is that the solos start to have the advantage as the distances go up with the 12hr record being 12 miles further and the 24hr record 40 miles further.   I do think a trained and practiced pairing could manage way more than 501 miles in a 24hr.

That's what the Guy Martin team thought initially, before they moved on to their recumbent idea.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: Mr Larrington on May 08, 2015, 08:00:43 pm
I'd like to see someone applying some proper SCIENCE to multi-rider HPV records; they've been lagging behind the solos since forever.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: Karla on May 08, 2015, 09:46:27 pm
In one of the articles/interviews surrounding this attempt, I heard it explained as "there's twice as much to go wrong in a tandem attempt".  That makes sense: ISTR a lot of the recent attempts have ended with one rider feeling seriously sub-par (or at least being explained that way). 

Personally, based on extremely limited tandem experience, I'd hate to ride hard for any extended period of time on a tandem.  Having to ride in tune with the other rider would probably make it hurt a lot more as it would be harder to ride in a style to favour whichever part of my body was hurting at any given moment.
Title: Re: Tandem LEJoG record broken
Post by: sg37409 on May 11, 2015, 05:36:45 pm
To really get the best time, the tandem team would need to have ridden as a team for a very long time, (a good few years likely) and trained for this for a long time.
Theres a lot of factors which count towards setting the record.   I'm not surprised its slower than a solo time. Reading the background behind this record ride, its clear a ton of effort went into it. Great ride !