Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Oranj on October 28, 2015, 08:59:49 pm

Title: [HAMR] New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Oranj on October 28, 2015, 08:59:49 pm
Watching the GCN Show this evening, there's a short section about Kurt's marriage, and also an announcement that Bruce Berkeley will start a OYTT on 1 January 2016 [https://youtu.be/M3UHN6HUmcc?t=645 (https://youtu.be/M3UHN6HUmcc?t=645)]. He's otherwise know as Cycle_dr 1 (https://www.strava.com/athletes/389932) on Strava and has got some previous form, having set a "Guinness record" for the number of miles ridden in a month (http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record (http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record)) (It which didn't actually beat Tommy Godwin's best month and was later surpassed by Kurt anyway, but a good effort nevertheless. I'm guessing Tommy didn't bother to register for a Guinness record month  ;) ). He's often near the top of Strava Challenge leaderboards.

Although illness cut short his attempt on the LEJOG-JOGLE record this summer, I would reckon him to be a serious contender if he can build up a decent support network (I got the impression that his month record was largely self-supported, ridden in the heat of an Australian summer).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: tonyh on October 28, 2015, 09:31:08 pm
Here's wishing Bruce very well for his attempt!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on October 29, 2015, 10:14:48 am
Crikey. This is becoming almost as popular as the Hour Record.

Looking forward to following the new contender's progress...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on October 29, 2015, 10:32:55 am
Hope he consulted Jo first to see if he was prepared to extend his services for another 4 months!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on October 29, 2015, 10:46:29 am
A strong contender for sure.  Fast and furious - his big monthly totals often come with average speeds of 28-30kph, so his attempt will probably be more in line with Kurt's than Steve's.  He regularly rides with other strong and fast riders, so he may not be short of pacers.

I remember much if not all of his biggest month was done back in Oz.  I wonder if he will be spending some time over there in (our) winter etc. 

I wonder how many laps of Richmond Park he will do in the year?  (he seems to do quite a number of laps every single day!).

Good luck to him.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on October 29, 2015, 10:50:41 am
I've often seen him mentioned/listed on the monthly mileage logs on Strava.  A big hitter.  I suspect he'll do well, subject to the usual caveats about weather and injury.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Shreds on October 29, 2015, 12:03:41 pm
First noticed his Strava feed at the beginning of the year in the MTS January or February challenge.

Clearly a strong contender.

Strange how TG's record could sit uncontested for so long, yet now it seems to be as popular as it was in the 1930s
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Byronius Maximus on October 29, 2015, 12:33:18 pm
Back when he was attempting the monthly mileage record, I seem to remember reading that he used to be an elite roadie. If that's right then he'll certainly have the fitness to give this a great go (though as we've learnt, this is about much more than fitness)!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on October 29, 2015, 01:15:05 pm
I find it interesting that all of the contenders announced to date all hail from English speaking countries.  This despite the attempts being followed by non-English speaking cyclists (presumably even more niche than in the UK though).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Justin(e) on October 29, 2015, 01:55:22 pm
I find it interesting that all of the contenders announced to date all hail from English speaking countries.  This despite the attempts being followed by non-English speaking cyclists (presumably even more niche than in the UK though).

Different countries have different cycling cultures.  The UK has a strong history of time trialists, whereas the continent was the place where road racers always came from (till recently).

Both Oz and the UK contested this record back in the day.  Maybe our progenitors handed something down in the genes, or maybe it's something in the water.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on October 29, 2015, 03:11:51 pm
best of luck to Bruce! looks like he will be using sensible gear that will make munching miles a tad easier
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: fboab on October 29, 2015, 04:38:48 pm
I'm happy to see he knows the importance of coordinated socks.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/634752222593744896/Nv6F-S0E_400x400.jpg)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LEE on October 29, 2015, 05:14:11 pm
Crikey. This is becoming almost as popular as the Hour Record.

It's really just 8,760 of them, one after the other.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on October 29, 2015, 05:38:53 pm
It looks like Strava want to keep their hamster wheel occupied.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on October 29, 2015, 05:44:07 pm
Best of luck to him!  Anybody here ridden with him?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on October 30, 2015, 09:12:11 am
With Teethginders continuation into 2016, the lady record challenge and now Bruce, the appendix to the year record book might have to wait.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on October 30, 2015, 01:02:10 pm
With Teethginders continuation into 2016, the lady record challenge and now Bruce, the appendix to the year record book might have to wait.

You know those crofter stews that have been continuously added to over many years .....
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rabbit on October 30, 2015, 03:39:57 pm
Now this is exciting!  ;D

Best of luck Bruce!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on October 31, 2015, 06:44:41 am
...
Strange how TG's record could sit uncontested for so long, yet now it seems to be as popular as it was in the 1930s
Whether or not he eventually goes on to break the record (and I sincerely hope he does) it's Steve Abraham who can take the credit for that.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on October 31, 2015, 08:16:08 am
...
Strange how TG's record could sit uncontested for so long, yet now it seems to be as popular as it was in the 1930s
Whether or not he eventually goes on to break the record (and I sincerely hope he does) it's Steve Abraham who can take the credit for that.

Indeedy!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on November 06, 2015, 09:51:14 am
from his Strava ride yesterday

Quote
Another ride = another bloody bike wash! 4 weeks and it'll be dry roads again ;-

to which someone in NSW wrote during with rain here brucey

which would suggest he's off to Aus
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: citoyen on November 30, 2015, 03:53:13 pm
I remember much if not all of his biggest month was done back in Oz.  I wonder if he will be spending some time over there in (our) winter etc. 

According to the press release I received from Canyon today, he'll be starting the year in Australia then coming back to the UK in April.

He's aiming for an average riding speed of 29kmh and the bikes he'll be riding are the Canyon Ultimate CF SLX and Aeroad CF SLX. It's clear that Canyon are right behind him and will be giving him plenty of support - good marketing exercise for them, good backup for him. Looks like he will be a serious contender.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on November 30, 2015, 04:03:56 pm
if he's coming to uk in april it would be good to ride along every now and then, especially if he spends some time in his favourite richmond park.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on November 30, 2015, 04:13:31 pm
He certainly seems to be well plugged into social media - should be fun to watch.  Anyone know the age bracket he'll be riding in?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on November 30, 2015, 05:26:34 pm
Cycling in perpetual summer is a very smart strategy, even though the transitions will presumably lose him a week or so of riding (given he will not just have to fly half way around the world, twice, but also adapt to a new time zone).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: citoyen on November 30, 2015, 05:58:22 pm
if he's coming to uk in april it would be good to ride along every now and then, especially if he spends some time in his favourite richmond park.

Sticking to Richmond Park could be a sensible strategy with Canyon's UK office being in Kingston. He might start craving a bit of variety before he reaches the target of 12,000 laps though.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on November 30, 2015, 06:40:11 pm
The flight is only about 24 hours. Getting over jet lag doesn't take a week, particularly if he can ride any hour of the day instead of fitting into office hours.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on November 30, 2015, 07:24:54 pm
Excellent - he's introduced ANOTHER variable that we'll never be able to evaluate for certain :)

Ridiculous fag-packet sums just to kick-start things:
I guess you have to add all the usual door-to-door faffing to that 24h. And then he'll lose SOME performance over the following few days. So doubling that means something over 550 miles lost? So that's about 3mpd over the 6 months of extra "summer".

Which isnt much - so hopefully he wont lost much more than that 500 miles.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on November 30, 2015, 07:56:31 pm
Sticking to Richmond Park could be a sensible strategy with Canyon's UK office being in Kingston. He might start craving a bit of variety before he reaches the target of 12,000 laps though.

doing it cw and acw could give some variety.. ;D

in any case i suspect he won't be avoiding hills which will provide more choice for routes and add to the excitement
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on November 30, 2015, 08:04:17 pm
Depending which way his plane flies to and from Aus, he could gain a couple of days in the style of Philias Fogg.  O:-)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on November 30, 2015, 08:20:39 pm
I wonder if there's enything in the roolz about drafting a 747 ? ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on November 30, 2015, 08:32:10 pm
Quote
Depending which way his plane flies to and from Aus, he could gain a couple of days in the style of Philias Fogg.  O:-)

id ride from Adelaide (base last year for the month) to Sydney, fly to LA, RAAM, then back to the UK or to Spain and ride north back to the UK

easy if you say it quick
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on November 30, 2015, 08:39:22 pm
I realise that if its within the current UMCA HAMR rules people can do what they want, but if in the future this challenge becomes one that can only be achieved by chasing the good weather around the globe, relies on lots of on the road support and big bucks, it's one that will lose its appeal for me.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on November 30, 2015, 08:53:22 pm
in my view, the optimal way would be to start in southern spain for the winter, then ride north* for summer and go back to southern spain in late autumn.

*use flatish cycle-friendly countries like france, netherlands, sweden, finland..
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: SoreTween on November 30, 2015, 08:56:01 pm
I realise that if its within the current UMCA HAMR rules people can do what they want, but if in the future this challenge becomes one that can only be achieved by chasing the good weather around the globe, relies on lots of on the road support and big bucks, it's one that will lose its appeal for me.
I'm inclined to agree but OTOH the Sun can be chased quite adequately from the UK at the cost of only a 1 hour ferry and those in the smaller portion of the Northern American continent don't even have that impediment.  I do think in the long term it'll be more and more about the Alacia until they are as important as the Kurt meaning future Steves have no hope.  I think there's a few marginal gains to be had yet before it has to be a very pro endevour.  I think this year proves they will be marginal though, Tommy Godwin will forever be the last to put a great gob of miles on the record.

I could, of course, be completely wrong.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ningishzidda on December 01, 2015, 06:58:28 am
The Pan-America Highway by riding a 'three steps forward, two steps back' affair.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on December 01, 2015, 08:05:26 am
I realise that if its within the current UMCA HAMR rules people can do what they want, but if in the future this challenge becomes one that can only be achieved by chasing the good weather around the globe, relies on lots of on the road support and big bucks, it's one that will lose its appeal for me.

I'll reserve judgement until I see what the long-term effects are. That will be the limiting factor in how much money can be thrown at the problem. At some point participants are technically 'at work', and those employing them bear responsibility for their welfare.
What happens to Steve and Kurt after they stop will show how viable a more formal arrangement would be.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on December 09, 2015, 03:43:26 pm
https://youtu.be/UVNj00fyFeQ (https://youtu.be/UVNj00fyFeQ)

Bit more from Bruce.

Still no indication that he's doing this under UMCA HAMR though - anyone know?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on December 09, 2015, 04:55:42 pm
if he's coming to uk in april it would be good to ride along every now and then, especially if he spends some time in his favourite richmond park.

I'll look out for him on my irregular commutes.  See if I can overtake him on my steel bike with panniers  :smug: :smug:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on December 09, 2015, 06:52:50 pm
I thought Guinness said that they would not entertain the record again (as it is too dangerous?).  I thought that was what started Steve out on the route to talking with the UMCA.

I hope that he undertakes it under the same rules as Kurt and Steve, pointless otherwise (sort of like his Guinness monthly/weekly "records" which have clearly been bettered by Kurt and Steve).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on December 09, 2015, 07:24:57 pm
Is he an Aussie who has lost some of his accent or an ossified Aussified Brit?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on December 09, 2015, 07:37:20 pm
A Kiwi.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on December 10, 2015, 11:14:07 am
I thought Guinness said that they would not entertain the record again (as it is too dangerous?).  I thought that was what started Steve out on the route to talking with the UMCA.

I hope that he undertakes it under the same rules as Kurt and Steve, pointless otherwise (sort of like his Guinness monthly/weekly "records" which have clearly been bettered by Kurt and Steve).
Kajsa Tylen, who is attempting to set a woman's record is doing it under the auspices of guiness, not UMCA.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: HK on December 10, 2015, 12:29:14 pm
Guinness limit you to one machine and having to start  from where you finished the night before. Why would anyone attempt either the men's or women's records with these rules?

Modern bikes need to be regularly maintained so that means unlike Billie and Tommy you need a second machine to ride whilst the other one is being serviced.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on December 10, 2015, 02:19:01 pm
I thought Guinness said that they would not entertain the record again (as it is too dangerous?).  I thought that was what started Steve out on the route to talking with the UMCA.

I hope that he undertakes it under the same rules as Kurt and Steve, pointless otherwise (sort of like his Guinness monthly/weekly "records" which have clearly been bettered by Kurt and Steve).
Kajsa Tylen, who is attempting to set a woman's record is doing it under the auspices of guiness, not UMCA.

Well that is odd. And as HK suggests is not really appropriate for a modern attempt (and surely Bruce will fall foul of the starting each day where you finished rule unless his bike has flotation devices attached for the ride back to Britain). 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on December 10, 2015, 05:49:07 pm
Guinness limit you to one machine and having to start  from where you finished the night before. Why would anyone attempt either the men's or women's records with these rules?

Modern bikes need to be regularly maintained so that means unlike Billie and Tommy you need a second machine to ride whilst the other one is being serviced.
Plus no drafting - which makes it hard to ride with other people at all.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on December 12, 2015, 08:52:34 pm
Interesting to see his 2015 mileage is just under 30k miles  :o
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Legs on December 12, 2015, 09:12:53 pm
Maybe he's being sensible and not wasting his effort on miles which won't count towards his record attempt, like Steve did?  If you look at Steve's Strava weekly totals, the only weeks he's managed more than 1540 miles (220 mpd mean) were in late June and early July, when it was already virtually certain that a restart would be necessary to launch a viable attempt. 

Even before he's turned a pedal in anger, Bruce strikes me as much more likely than Steve to take the record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on December 12, 2015, 09:26:13 pm
apart from January 2015 when he did just short of 10,000km ?

he's been doing 30-40 hours a week for at least the last few years he's been on Strava

this link has some good info on his background (apologies if its been posted before)

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/01/10000km-in-a-month-the-story-of-bruce-berkeley/
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: paul851 on December 17, 2015, 04:43:00 pm
It would seem Bruce is going the Kurt Searvogel route for his record attempt bike.
https://twitter.com/cycle_dr1 (https://twitter.com/cycle_dr1)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWY36pQUsAQveyE.jpg:large)

Paul
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: citoyen on December 17, 2015, 05:04:52 pm
His wheels alone are worth more than Steve's whole bike. Interesting choice.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on December 17, 2015, 05:16:31 pm
And it's a faster colour.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on December 17, 2015, 05:34:07 pm
One bike?! :o
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on December 17, 2015, 05:35:50 pm
I've got the same bike stand
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Chris S on December 17, 2015, 07:11:00 pm
One bike?! :o

Maybe.

Bruce: "And, I'll need three more like this."
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on December 17, 2015, 07:15:42 pm
It would seem to have no way of varying the handlebar height.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on December 17, 2015, 07:26:45 pm
It would seem Bruce is going the Kurt Searvogel route for his record attempt bike.
Do you mean bikeS? Kurt regularly uses a recumbent (amongst other beasts!)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: fussballclub on December 17, 2015, 07:28:11 pm
An Aero bike test in the recent Tour magazine gives the Canyon Aeroad 2-3 min depending on wheels over your usual roadbike for 100km 75kg at 200w. So that is 3-5h per 10.000km?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: notlobgp14 on December 17, 2015, 08:51:31 pm
Let's hope it doesn't rain, wet roads on that?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on December 17, 2015, 08:57:09 pm
An Aero bike test in the recent Tour magazine gives the Canyon Aeroad 2-3 min depending on wheels over your usual roadbike for 100km 75kg at 200w. So that is 3-5h per 10.000km?

How much does it give it vs a Raleigh Sojourn with full mudguards and a few kilos of luggage...?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mzjo on December 17, 2015, 09:31:39 pm
Somewhere in the Tarzan/Bruce logic is the unassailable fact that doing the mileage requires adequate rest patterns which in turn require riding at evens or over with minimum energy expenditure. A classic audax/randonneur approach will require a very strong man because the miles aren't going to get any shorter. 16-18mph isn't going to hack it any longer.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on December 17, 2015, 10:21:47 pm
Don't tell Bruce, but the wire to the back Di2 mech seems to have fallen off!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on December 18, 2015, 12:22:18 am
Looks zoom zoom.

Really nice.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on December 23, 2015, 10:50:14 am
I reckon he won't be riding in Richmond Park very much - unless he wants to lose a lot of time and money getting pulled over by the parks police for breaking the 20mph speed limit. He'll want to be averaging almost 20mph so there are bound to be some downhills where he will go a lot faster.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: HK on December 23, 2015, 12:56:52 pm

Interesting to see his 2015 mileage is just under 30k miles  :o

I'd say that's an ideal jumping off point for the record.  He's going into the record with enough fitness and experience but without being too tired as he needs to more than double that number. A tough asked but doable.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on December 23, 2015, 01:01:52 pm

Interesting to see his 2015 mileage is just under 30k miles  :o

I'd say that's an ideal jumping off point for the record.  He's going into the record with enough fitness and experience but without being too tired as he needs to more than double that number. A tough asked but doable.
Indeed, I note by his Strava account he's already in Adelaide knocking out a few rides on the beach front.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: HK on December 23, 2015, 01:18:06 pm
Perhaps he's doing the Rapha Festive 500 as his taper?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on December 23, 2015, 01:40:53 pm
I reckon he won't be riding in Richmond Park very much - unless he wants to lose a lot of time and money getting pulled over by the parks police for breaking the 20mph speed limit. He'll want to be averaging almost 20mph so there are bound to be some downhills where he will go a lot faster.

He manages quite enough laps there already without getting pulled.

I have done several hundred laps of the park and never been pulled (even I can manage laps at over 20mph average).  Anyone that rides there regularly knows where the police are and, in general, they are more concerned with cars than bikes.  As long as you don't come down a hill towards them, on the wrong side of the road, overtaking cars at 40+mph, they will, in general leave you alone.

It's not the ideal place for big miles most of the time, too much traffic in the daytime, 5 roundabouts to negotiate (which is part of the reason why ACW is quicker), and not flat.  But in the early mornings before the gates open and in the evenings once they are locked, then it's a pretty good place if he's happy churning out laps (which he seems to be).  It's near his house I think (not actually sure where he lives, but somewhere local, I feel Barnes maybe). 

He does several other loops around here, mainly along the roads following the river, so pan flat.

We'll see what he does.  I will certainly give him a cheer if he passes me in the park. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on December 23, 2015, 02:25:39 pm
31 laps of RP would be a Godwin, more or less.  That would be akin to what Kurt's been doing in west Florida recently.  RP is significantly more hilly though - there's only actually one proper flat stretch of a few hundred yards - the rest is undulating, and Dark Hill is an out-of-the-saddle job (for me anyway) so that would get the heart pounding every lap!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: HK on December 23, 2015, 02:47:08 pm
He needs to maintain the ability to go fast toontra, so using more than a steady state heart rate is probably good.

Tommy Godwin was using mega intervals in his summer months.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on December 23, 2015, 04:33:28 pm
To improve fitness you need recovery time. Riding at LSD pace leaves a lot less recovery time.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on December 24, 2015, 10:35:04 am
31 laps of RP would be a Godwin, more or less.  That would be akin to what Kurt's been doing in west Florida recently.  RP is significantly more hilly though - there's only actually one proper flat stretch of a few hundred yards - the rest is undulating, and Dark Hill is an out-of-the-saddle job (for me anyway) so that would get the heart pounding every lap!

If you look at his typical usage of the park, he actually does not do Kingston<->Robin Hood Gate much (in comparison to the rest of it, probably still does that section several hundred times a year!).  He uses the 3 roads across the centre a lot to create smaller, flatter, faster loops.

Anyway, we'll see if he stays true to form and continues to use the park from April.  I would guess he will, and certainly outside of the times when the gates are open, it is a great place to add miles.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on December 24, 2015, 10:44:27 am
To improve fitness you need recovery time. Riding at LSD pace leaves a lot less recovery time.

But riding at LSD pace requires a lot less recovery than riding fast.

If you going to do 200 miles the physiological question is whether doing it in 10 hours (20mph) and having 14 hours of recovery a day is better (long term) than doing it in ~14 hours (15mph) and only having 10 hours of recovery a day.

Remember that Steve's current conditioning is such that he's averaging below 90bpm on these rides.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on December 24, 2015, 10:47:29 am
All depends on your power in relation to your FTP. The good Dr has a stages power meter so he is ahead off the game already.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on December 24, 2015, 03:04:39 pm
To improve fitness you need recovery time. Riding at LSD pace leaves a lot less recovery time.

But riding at LSD pace requires a lot less recovery than riding fast.

If you going to do 200 miles the physiological question is whether doing it in 10 hours (20mph) and having 14 hours of recovery a day is better (long term) than doing it in ~14 hours (15mph) and only having 10 hours of recovery a day.


Remember that Steve's current conditioning is such that he's averaging below 90bpm on these rides.
In bold is the key issue here: I dont think there is anywhere near enough science and/or data out there to answer it.

(yet!)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on December 24, 2015, 04:23:51 pm
All depends on your power in relation to your FTP. The good Dr has a stages power meter so he is ahead off the game already.

Sure, a power meter is useful to accurately gauge effort at the time as HR lags behind effort so much to be useless for the unexperienced. But on historical data ride intensity (TSS/Daniels Points) derived from HR data is close enough to ride intensity derived from power (there's a Coggan link somewhere for this), and we've seen Steve is good at keeping his effort low. I'd say that Steve has got quite enough experience at riding on feel that I don't think he'd benefit at all from riding with a power meter, if anything it's just one more thing to worry about when it inevitably stops working.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on December 31, 2015, 01:53:39 pm
Has he started yet?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: SoreTween on December 31, 2015, 02:03:58 pm
Dunno.  He's not mentioned at all on trackleaders or on UMCA, nothing on his twitface either.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: macnark on December 31, 2015, 02:08:56 pm
My guess is he will ride as much daylight as possible as it is faster, and use night time for recovery, similar to Kurt, so praps off around 4-5pm UK time?

6am sunrise, 8:30pm sunset at the mo., and he is 10.5 hours ahead of UK

Latest local info http://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/australia/adelaide
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on December 31, 2015, 02:30:56 pm
Will he be viewable on the trackleaders page too?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Shreds on January 01, 2016, 08:17:27 am
177 km on his Garmin already showing on his Twitter account at his first lunch stop after 5hrs 39 mins
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: falcon on January 01, 2016, 08:51:20 am
207 miles posted on strava with 8000ft of climbing at 18+mph! WOW!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 01, 2016, 08:59:32 am
interesting choice of route  :o
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 01, 2016, 10:16:27 am
That's an impressive start from Bruce. A 500m climb in his first 3 hours. He's going to be one to watch this year.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on January 01, 2016, 10:18:38 am
That's an impressive start from Bruce. A 500m climb in his first 3 hours. He's going to be one to watch this year.

Are you planning to track Bruce as well, Jo?  You could end up with a job for life!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on January 01, 2016, 10:24:17 am
Does anyone know if he is doing this under UMCA validation?

He certainly does not yet appear on their website.

With Kasja doing the women's record under Guinness regs, it does seem they are back in the game of ratifying annual distance records, so maybe he is doing it their way as well?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 01, 2016, 10:37:55 am
My assumption is that he isn't doing it under UMCA. I would have expected an announcement from them if he had joined officially. I note also that there are no heart rate data in his Strava upload, or any live tracking that I am aware of, which are requirements of the UMCA HAM'R.

He may be doing this as an unofficial record attempt only. If he was to do it under Guinness, that would presumably limit him to Australia for the year (starting each new day at the end of the previous one). I seem to recall mention of him doing some of the attempt in the UK. And would that single bike last a 70k+ mile year?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 01, 2016, 11:10:38 am
I've no idea what his plans are but there's no requirement for him to have any supposed 'authority' accredit his achievement.
In the days of GPS, Strava and all, everyone can see what he has done and can either believe it or not - which is also the case if he had UMCA, Guinness or anyone else on board.  Personally, if I thought he had ridden the miles, I would regard it as being the record without any such stamp of approval.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on January 01, 2016, 11:33:29 am
Go Bruce, from what I've seen, that part of Oz has some great cycling roads and a rather large cycling community. I wish him well.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 01, 2016, 12:31:43 pm
Looking forward to an interesting year.  He's clearly a strong and accomplished rider, but there are lots of other factors involved.   I wish him well with his attempt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 01, 2016, 06:17:55 pm
What counts as a "single bike" under Guinness rules?  I can see scope for the proverbial axe of my grandfather here.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on January 01, 2016, 07:35:11 pm
Bruce has registered with UMCA. I have had this confirmed by them. So pleased he made this decision.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 01, 2016, 07:45:04 pm
Is he live-tracking somewhere (Required under rule 7 of the UMCA HAM'R)? I see that the rules require at least one of heart rate or power readings, and as he has submitted power via Strava, that at least is covered.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on January 01, 2016, 07:51:07 pm
Yes. He is initially using a phone app, but moving to SPOT soon. As soon as he does I will get him added to Trackleaders.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on January 01, 2016, 08:35:04 pm
Bruce has registered with UMCA. I have had this confirmed by them. So pleased he made this decision.

That's great news.  Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 01, 2016, 09:43:26 pm
The fascination of seeing how the protagonist(s) have been doing will be a breakfast time pleasure for another year! Splendid!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Polar Bear on January 01, 2016, 09:58:22 pm
What counts as a "single bike" under Guinness rules?  I can see scope for the proverbial axe of my grandfather here.

Trigger's broom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HisD_pqlRHQ) I think you mean.   :D

Or, should that be Granville's broom? 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 01, 2016, 09:59:49 pm
What counts as a "single bike" under Guinness rules?  I can see scope for the proverbial axe of my grandfather here.

Trigger's broom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HisD_pqlRHQ) I think you mean.   :D

Or, should that be Granville's broom?

It's a much older joke than "Only Fools & Horses".
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Psychler on January 01, 2016, 10:26:17 pm
The Ship of Theseus, eh!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ashaman42 on January 01, 2016, 10:33:35 pm
Don't be silly Psychler, a ship isn't a broom!  :facepalm: ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Psychler on January 01, 2016, 10:41:18 pm
Don't be silly Psychler, a ship isn't a broom!  :facepalm: ;D

Sorry, I meant the Broom of Theseus.  Or is it Trigger's ship!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Laid Back Rich on January 01, 2016, 11:11:39 pm
He's not avoiding the hills then: https://www.strava.com/activities/460434163

GO BRUCE!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 01, 2016, 11:23:21 pm
it seems a bit reckless for someone who's twice abandoned a LEJOGLE record attempt with knee trouble.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 01, 2016, 11:30:12 pm
What counts as a "single bike" under Guinness rules?  I can see scope for the proverbial axe of my grandfather here.

Trigger's broom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HisD_pqlRHQ) I think you mean.   :D


No, if I'd meant "Trigger's Broom" i wouldn't have written "the proverbial axe of my grandfather" ::-) ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 02, 2016, 07:30:18 am
Don't be silly Psychler, a ship isn't a broom!  :facepalm: ;D

What if it is a minesweeper?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 02, 2016, 07:35:26 am
it seems a bit reckless for someone who's twice abandoned a LEJOGLE record attempt with knee trouble.

And for someone attempting a distance record.  He will go further if he can find a flatter course.

Solid start for Bruce.  I am looking forward to making many Bruce based puns over the next 12 months.

Keeeeep dancing, on the pedals.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 02, 2016, 09:26:15 am
day 2 up, 340.2km with 2690m of climbing @ 30.2kph average

https://www.strava.com/activities/461106580
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 02, 2016, 09:29:47 am
That's a nice Brucie bonus over a standard Godwin.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: falcon on January 02, 2016, 10:50:46 am
A bit confusing why he insists on so much climbing. Very impressive though!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 02, 2016, 11:18:42 am
I guess he enjoys it - and, looking at the map, it seems there aren't that many options for getting out of the city without climbing. But I suspect tactics will evolve as the year progresses.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: paul851 on January 02, 2016, 11:22:30 am
Maybe he spent all year reading Strava and forum comments and decided to put that argument to bed from the start ?  ;D


Paul
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 02, 2016, 11:50:23 am
A good solid start  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 02, 2016, 11:51:44 am
An impressively strong challenger.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 02, 2016, 11:52:51 am
Crumbs!  If he keeps this up it will be a pretty awesome effort.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Canardly on January 02, 2016, 11:53:14 am
I hope he gets a clear run at it with no incidents.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 02, 2016, 09:09:32 pm
Blimey! That's 212 miles in 11 1/4 hours' moving time. Apart from when he was in Sebring, did Kurt manage a day as fast as that?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 02, 2016, 09:31:33 pm
it's great to be able to see his power output, although would be interesting to know the heart rate too. he's clearly a strong rider and i also wish him great mental strength in this challenge as well as very best of luck.

GO BRUCE!!!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 02, 2016, 10:49:13 pm
Lets hope we havent started off too fast, I'm sure he knows what hes doing.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 02, 2016, 11:44:35 pm
That sounds awfully familiar...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rabbit on January 03, 2016, 09:41:58 am
This is exciting!  ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 03, 2016, 11:13:21 am
Day 3 and another 214.5mile :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 04, 2016, 08:44:11 am
No Strava upload for yesterday  :-\

Edit: I refreshed the page and another 209.5 miles was done on day 4
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 04, 2016, 09:45:16 am
I wonder how long it will be before Bruce has an official HAMR page. Surely that's a big part of your $300 worth at least.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 04, 2016, 03:48:54 pm
That sounds awfully familiar...
I have been looking at some of the posts from this time last year and you are quite right,  :thumbsup: ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 04, 2016, 03:58:11 pm
is Bruce managing his "non-cycling life" himself or there's anyone to assist?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 05, 2016, 09:06:25 am
Another 217.6 miles in the bag  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 05, 2016, 01:25:51 pm
Nice to see it, to see it, nice.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 05, 2016, 01:29:35 pm
Hillbilly – you need to pace yourself – there are  360 days left. And especially don't try two in one day. You get nothing for a pair.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 05, 2016, 03:58:17 pm
We need to wait until stumps on January 9th before we know exactly how many miles are required for a Brucie Bonus.

(http://legslarry.org.uk/BikeStull/coat_48.png)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 06, 2016, 11:04:51 am
There is no Rule 6.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 06, 2016, 12:51:51 pm
Another 211.7 miles done yesterday
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 06, 2016, 12:58:43 pm
In the day we sweat it out on the streets of a runaway Adelaide dream
At night we ride through the mansions of glory on streamlined machines
Sprung from cages out on highway nine,
Aero wheeled, gel injected,and steppin' out over the line
H-Oh, Baby this town rips the bones from your back
It's a glory trap, it's a world record rap
We gotta get out while we're young
`Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to ride
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Arry-R on January 06, 2016, 08:13:32 pm
Great posting as always Hillbilly and keep em coming
 ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 06, 2016, 08:48:32 pm
I think of him as 'Busby', as in the dance routine from 1.37.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZozePxjnvk
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 07, 2016, 09:14:47 am
212 more miles added
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: DaveE128 on January 07, 2016, 01:11:47 pm
I wonder why, if one is to travel across the world to find a good place to ride for the HAM'R attempt, one would go and ride somewhere hilly? :)

Maybe he has some friends/family over there or something?

Or maybe he just loves hills?  ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2016, 01:40:23 pm
Probably lots of reasons but two I can think of is that it's summer there and the variation in intensity will help prevent detraining. If what he is doing is sustainable then why not?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: citoyen on January 07, 2016, 02:47:11 pm
Looking at today's ride, 1,260m ascent over 341km isn't really hilly at all - Mount Lofty is a fair old hike, I guess, but it's not all that steep.

His comments on the wind suggest another reason why he might prefer to head inland to the hills.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 07, 2016, 04:48:38 pm
Perhaps he might get the eptithet the "Fremantle Doctor."
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: citoyen on January 07, 2016, 05:57:22 pm
Perhaps he might get the eptithet the "Fremantle Doctor."

He's a good few miles from Fremantle, isn't he?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 07, 2016, 05:58:15 pm
Quote
Looking at today's ride, 1,260m ascent over 341km isn't really hilly at all - Mount Lofty is a fair old hike, I guess, but it's not all that steep.

he does get the advantage of 30km of gravity assisted riding later in the day when more tired, you could essentially refuel on the go without having to make sure you maintain the momentum that riding on the flat brings
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2016, 08:57:47 pm
Perhaps he might get the eptithet the "Fremantle Doctor."

He's a good few miles from Fremantle, isn't he?

Depends on how strong the wind is. It might be a sea breeze.

(9,6)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on January 08, 2016, 09:12:12 am
Well today's strava has him riding with Astana for 70km as they will be in town for TDU.

I am sure the haters gonna hate ('being paced by pros') etc.

But he sure is racking up the miles.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 08, 2016, 03:27:37 pm
yeah, cause Tommy Godwin was never paced by pros... ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Legs on January 08, 2016, 03:44:19 pm
Bruce is a friend of my brother's.  When I saw him at New Year, Matt was saying how much he was looking forward to riding with Bruce on his return to the UK.  Matt has some pedigree in long-distance riding, having been Audax UK Junior Champion in 1996 - funnily enough, the Champion for the previous two years had been a Mr S Abraham...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 08, 2016, 04:31:14 pm
Who? ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 08, 2016, 05:08:58 pm
Nevererdovim.
[/self]
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on January 08, 2016, 05:42:55 pm
yeah, cause Tommy Godwin was never paced by pros... ;)

correct
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 08, 2016, 11:43:19 pm
There's something a little odd about the Strava figures for Bruce's rides so far (I'm not suggesting anything untoward, just an anomaly I can't make sense of).

When I looked at his total for days 1-7, my calculation based on the GPX data uploaded to Strava was about 49km short of the figure suggested by Strava itself. For only 7 days, this is a much greater discrepancy than I would expect even accounting for home-zone privacy settings etc. I have been working though my calculations looking for possible causes, but was not able to identify anything.

Then I noticed that if you take any ride, say this one on the 4th Jan (https://www.strava.com/activities/462734868), the headline figure on Strava says 337.1km (tallying with Bruce's own comment for the ride), but if you move the mouse over the elevation profile below the map, the distance only goes up to 325.7km. This lower figure matches exactly the one I had also calculated directly from the GPX file.

So which figure is the correct one, and why such a discrepancy? This is too big an error to ignore as ~10km errors for a single day will soon add up.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 09, 2016, 01:33:30 am
Could one be wheel sensor based?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: aoxomoxoa on January 09, 2016, 05:35:33 am
I think simonp's answer may be the right explanation, as a wheel-based sensor measures ground speed distance (i.e. includes vertical distance) whereas the GPS calculated distance assumes a flat surface.  See Strava's explanation: https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/21278088-How-Distance-is-Calculated.

Do we know if Bruce is in fact using a wheel-based sensor?

Likewise, if Kurt and Steve have been relying solely on GPS-calculated distance then have they in fact been under-reporting their distances? I guess this would be a slightly more significant issue for Steve as I think his routes over the year have been hillier. But for Kurt this could mean his mileage is even higher - though how this could be established in the absence of wheel sensor data I dunno.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Legs on January 09, 2016, 06:36:22 am
There's something a little odd about the Strava figures for Bruce's rides so far (I'm not suggesting anything untoward, just an anomaly I can't make sense of).

When I looked at his total for days 1-7, my calculation based on the GPX data uploaded to Strava was about 49km short of the figure suggested by Strava itself. For only 7 days, this is a much greater discrepancy than I would expect even accounting for home-zone privacy settings etc. I have been working though my calculations looking for possible causes, but was not able to identify anything.

Then I noticed that if you take any ride, say this one on the 4th Jan (https://www.strava.com/activities/462734868), the headline figure on Strava says 337.1km (tallying with Bruce's own comment for the ride), but if you move the mouse over the elevation profile below the map, the distance only goes up to 325.7km. This lower figure matches exactly the one I had also calculated directly from the GPX file.

So which figure is the correct one, and why such a discrepancy? This is too big an error to ignore as ~10km errors for a single day will soon add up.

Any ideas?
Is this to do with the privacy zones that Bruce has set up in Strava?  Whenever I go out for a run, whatever portion of my run is done within a certain radius of my home is invisible to other Strava users, and doesn't show up on the elevation profile.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 09, 2016, 07:05:06 am
I think Simon and aoxomoxoa may have it. Bruce's Strava data include cadence and power so he must be using some wheel-based sensor. The discrepancy (about 2.1% on average so far) is too great for this to be solely due to elevation vs flat assumptions of distance, but it could be explained by a combination of elevation, the difference in calibration between wheel sensor and GPS and correction of GPS errors.

The problem becomes which figure should be used? A 2.1% difference would amount to over 1,500 miles for a 75,000 total, so this is significant, and could well be more than the difference between riders by the end of the year.

For the moment, in my visualizations, I will be going with the (lower) figure as stored in the GPX file, not because I necessarily think is the figure that should be officially recorded but because it will be a bit of a faff to rescale the data.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 09, 2016, 07:33:06 am
I have always been of the view that a GPS under-records by about 2% compared to an accurately calibrated wheel sensor, on the basis that it is "joining the dots" with a series of straight lines. Having said that, for a record of this nature it isn't possible to rely in wheel sensor because all competitors' distances have to be recorded in a common manner.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 09, 2016, 08:02:43 am
Bruce's cadence data might come from the stages power meter
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 09, 2016, 09:20:02 am
I think simonp's answer may be the right explanation, as a wheel-based sensor measures ground speed distance (i.e. includes vertical distance) whereas the GPS calculated distance assumes a flat surface.  See Strava's explanation: https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/21278088-How-Distance-is-Calculated.

He didn't climb 49km though (the discrepency can't be any more than the distance climbed by pythagoras).

Do we know if Bruce is in fact using a wheel-based sensor?

Likewise, if Kurt and Steve have been relying solely on GPS-calculated distance then have they in fact been under-reporting their distances? I guess this would be a slightly more significant issue for Steve as I think his routes over the year have been hillier. But for Kurt this could mean his mileage is even higher - though how this could be established in the absence of wheel sensor data I dunno.

Does the GPX file that you can download from Strava contain any <DistanceMeters> tags? That's how the Garmin would be storing the distance from a cadence sensor[1], and what Strava might be using for the distance. Don't have time to check myself right now...

The privacy zones (as suggested by Legs) will also contribute, it just depends how big he defined the zone and how many times he want near it (or them).

1. This is a bit of a simplification, and it's also most likely that Bruce (and Steve) are uploading .fit files which store the data in a different way.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 09, 2016, 09:25:09 am
Not sure what UMCA will do with such a discrepancy as a miscalibrated wheel circumference could make it interesting.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: PAC on January 09, 2016, 10:07:08 am
Bruce's cadence data might come from the stages power meter

Yes, the Stages PM provides cadence data.

I you look closely under the left-hand chainstay in this photo of his bike he tweeted on 8th January, you can see a BBB speed sensor dangling there. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYL0lh-UwAA81oQ.jpg:large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYL0lh-UwAA81oQ.jpg:large)
That's a rapid looking bike ;D :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 09, 2016, 11:10:00 am
Does the GPX file that you can download from Strava contain any <DistanceMeters> tags? That's how the Garmin would be storing the distance from a cadence sensor[1], and what Strava might be using for the distance. Don't have time to check myself right now...

Just checked, no it doesn't, it's just lat/lon/ele. Doesn't rule it out though. To check for sure you'd need to get your hands on the original .fit file, which is unlikely.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Karla on January 09, 2016, 11:16:34 am
I have always been of the view that a GPS under-records by about 2% compared to an accurately calibrated wheel sensor, on the basis that it is "joining the dots" with a series of straight lines. Having said that, for a record of this nature it isn't possible to rely in wheel sensor because all competitors' distances have to be recorded in a common manner.

Not necessarily.  As I think I've recounted before, my GPS over-recorded by about a mile on this year's 12 hour TT - which was highly annoying as I thought I'd broken 260 miles but the results sheet said I was a mile short!

Your GPS uses something called a Kalman filter, which works out a 'best guess' position based on a weighted average of your current measured position and a prediction based on previous measurements.   That means that GPS tracks often overshoot turns, based on their predictions, before being brought into line by new measurements.  That's one reason why tracks can be over- rather than under-distance.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on January 09, 2016, 12:02:24 pm
A Calman filter - what a great idea!

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6Nmps6sCjqE/SWfXvcFFXqI/AAAAAAAABew/NGL7tTgTxMc/s400/Mel+Calman+(cakes+antifat).jpg)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wajcgac on January 09, 2016, 01:52:45 pm
For a 2% discrepancy, he must have the calibration out of whack. I've found the auto-wheel size calculation that the Garmin Edge does rather inaccurate, and you get better results overriding that and entering a manual value. Doing this, and running two Garmins - one off GPS, one off a speed sensor - over 400km and 600km distances I've seen differences of around 0.2%, an order of magnitude better than what Jo's finding from Bruce's tracks.

It would be interesting to manually set the wheel calibration to say double what it really is rather than use the auto-wheel size. Go out for a ride on a bike that also has an old style non GPS computer on it as well (set to the correct wheel size).

Then upload to Strava and see what it actually reports the distance to be compared to the non GPS computer . I'd have thought Strava would calculate your distance on the GPS positioning data and not that recorded by the incorrectly set GPS wheel sensor.

Taking it a step further if it took the speed data as correct from the wheel sensor then it would make getting KOMs much easier but that won't happen as it calculates your speed from the time between GPS coordinates at the start and finish of the segment.

Does this make sense and is it worth trying it?

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 09, 2016, 01:56:17 pm
Using an Edge 1000 with a speed sensor (and cadence from Stages, so very similar to Bruce's set up) and a Vivosmart recording the same rides up to about 100km, I've found the difference to be in the order of 0.5% with the Edge recording a slightly longer distance. It doesn't bother me, but it could be very significant in the context of HAM'R, and it never occurred to me before - I wonder who else it hasn't occurred to?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 09, 2016, 03:58:55 pm
I've always found some discrepancy between GPS tracks and reality. No-one has mentioned WGS84 yet either.

When Kurt broke the record and celebrated I had a little voice at the back of my mind about this. Not to pour water on his achievement, but different methods give different results.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wajcgac on January 09, 2016, 04:04:48 pm
Out of curiosity I've been out an done a little experiment.

Cateye Enduro 8 V Garmin Edge 500 set to use manual wheel circumference.

The Garmin was set for a manually entered wheel circumference of 4192mm - double the Auto wheel circumference it was originally set for which was 2096 mm.

The Cateye was set to the std wheel circumference for a 700/23c wheel of 209 cm.

According to the Cateye I cycled a distance of 1.18 km (on a flat route)

As expected whilst cycling along the Garmin showed my speed and distance travelled to be twice that recorded by the Cateye.

When uploaded to Strava, contrary to my thoughts earlier the reported distance was still twice that of the Cateye at 2.3 km, max speed and average speed were both double as well.

When looking at the analysis of the ride it starts at 0km and finishes as 2.3 km as I don't have privacy zones set (I crop at start and finish of ride instead)

Therefore it would seem that if you took the Strava upload at face value there would be no indication that there was something wrong with it and you could easily believe someone had cycled further than they actually had.

I then exported the GPX file from Strava and uploaded it to Ridgewithgps - where the distance ridden was shown as 1.2 km (I think this is similar to how Jo discovered the initial problem)

When uploaded to Garmin Connect the distance is shown as 1.23 km.

So it would initially seem a problem with Strava as other websites aren't fooled by playing around with the wheel sensor circumference data.

(I know Kurts Garmin connect data was always under distance compared to his Strava data by as much as 1.5km per day but mostly less than this so I'm sure his distance data is as good as you can get with GPS.)

Here is Bruce's Garmin connect page

https://connect.garmin.com/profile/cycle_dr1

Based on what I had seen above I was expecting to see a difference between this and Strava but there isn't any so that would appear to dispel the wrong wheel circumference theory.

I can't seem to be able to look at the Garmin Connect analysis of Bruces ride as the website comes back with a timeout error - may be because I'm not 'connected' with him.

All very confusing.

Jo, how are you able to get the GPX data for Bruces ride on the 4th - are you a Strava Premium Member?

 

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 09, 2016, 06:11:22 pm
I had no problem getting into Bruce's ride analysis on Connect, so I guess it's a local problem for you. The GPX of anyone you're following is certainly available to Strava Premium members, not sure about standard members.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wajcgac on January 09, 2016, 07:24:47 pm
Thanks Tim, as you say it looks like a temporary local problem for me as it's working now

Just had a look at the analysis on Garmin connect for the ride on 9th Jan.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1008396301 (https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1008396301)

https://www.strava.com/activities/466219804 (https://www.strava.com/activities/466219804)

Garmin has no privacy zones so I compared it with the ride shown on Strava.

Garmin shows that he rode about 2.3 km before he emerged from his privacy zone on Strava and he rode nearly 6km at the end of his ride whilst within his Strava privacy zone.

Bruce seems to do a few small loops at the end of the ride - I guess just to get the distance up a bit.

In total about 8.3km extra can be seen on Garmin Connect for this ride.

Looking at the ride on the 4th Jan it's nearly 12km extra seen on Garmin connect as he does small loops around the finish again.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1002922268 (https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1002922268)

https://www.strava.com/activities/462734868

I'm guessing Jo that if you are downloading the GPX file on Strava, even as a Premium Member and somebody following Bruce it is not giving you the full data to observe Bruce's privacy settings.

The Strava privacy setting seems to work in a slightly odd way - in that it seems to crop the ride to the point where you finally leave or enter the zone. You can pass through the zone and an observer will see the track - the bit you can't see is before he leaves the zone at the start and from the last time he enters the zone before the ride finishes.

One thing to learn from this is for those who have rides uploaded to Strava and Garmin is the need to set your privacy settings on Garmin as well. Garmin is done differently in that you can restrict access to your rides to certain people - yourself only, your connections, connections and groups or everyone.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 10, 2016, 10:11:58 am
Thanks wajcgac for your work on investigating this. I think your observation that Bruce, unlike the other riders, is riding significant distances within his Strava privacy zone either at the start or end of the day explains the discrepancy for all days. It doesn't look like there is any observable miscalibration of the bike sensor vs GPS distance measures.

I've updated the data on gicentre.org/oytt to reflect his full distances including the privacy zone riding.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 12, 2016, 03:15:40 pm
Bruce would seem to have been called Dave back in the early 2000s.

He seemed to peak in the Surrey League 5 day in 2003. With a good showing on day 3.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/UK/2003/aug03/aug15-19evanssurrey5day033


Quote
The afternoon's stage of 84 miles around the South Downs saw a breakaway group of 13 riders go clear in the opening miles and build a lead that at one time exceeded 4 minutes. Most of the main teams were represented in the break with VC St Raphael, Energy Cycles, Evans RT and Parrot Print RT each having two riders but the greatest beneficiary looked to be Dave Berkeley (Sigma Sport RT) who looked like becoming the new race leader. However, in an exciting finale the main bunch reduced the group's lead to less than two minutes and at the finish Justin Hoy (Evans RT) produced an outstanding sprint to win the stage ahead of Timmy Barry (Ras Mumhan) and Berkeley.

He's a contemporary of Gethin Butler, who won that event in 2000. Bradley Wiggins rode that level of event at the time.

2003 was his big year, there are a few results from 2004, but nothing before. He's not listed as having a category, so may have held an NZ licence.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points?person_id=28236&d=4&year=2003

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 15, 2016, 01:29:54 pm
Seems like he did a bit of riding with Team Sky yesterday as part of 212 miles at 18.7mph.  Some decent pics of them leading him out on twitter and facebook.   He is also using a go pro on board which could open the possibility for some nice footage being released after his attempt
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 15, 2016, 01:43:10 pm
What sort of support is he using? He says he has 'shredded' a couple of tyres in  three days but is still pumping out the miles in a fantastic fashion.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on January 17, 2016, 09:14:20 am
Hoppo saying on Facebook that Bruce has been disqualified from HAMR.

Would not be a surprise as he has not had the same data transparency as the other contenders (particularly HR).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on January 17, 2016, 09:21:09 am
Could it be "Solo riders only; no teams"?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 17, 2016, 09:24:17 am
Hoppo saying on Facebook that Bruce has been disqualified from HAMR.

Would not be a surprise as he has not had the same data transparency as the other contenders (particularly HR).

Can't be the reason, the power data is proof of his efforts, unless they think he is on an e-bike ? And why does this leak out via Hoppo, the HAMR web pages don't serve the competitors in the challenge very well
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 17, 2016, 09:25:02 am
Oof!  Seems harsh.  I wait to hear the details.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 17, 2016, 09:33:00 am
Maybe the UMCA are upset about entering under a nickname? That reason would make as much sense as anything else. There has never been any UMCA prohibition about riding with others during these attempts. My guess is that he didn't pay his entry fee in time.

It doesn't matter in reality as Strava would give enough recognition anyway. After all, if anybody beats Tommy's 100,000 mile record, there is no means for 'official' recognition.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: SoreTween on January 17, 2016, 09:37:01 am
Rule 7 includes:
Quote
Riders will be required to have an active live tracking device in operation for all mileage to be credited for the attempt
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 17, 2016, 09:41:09 am
Rule 7 includes:
Quote
Riders will be required to have an active live tracking device in operation for all mileage to be credited for the attempt

Oops yes good point, oh boy this is going to get messy
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Andydauddwr on January 17, 2016, 09:45:10 am
From Bruce on FaceAche:
Bruce Berkeley: What a load of rubbish, an admin error at their end!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 17, 2016, 09:49:36 am
Stop. HAMR time.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Andydauddwr on January 17, 2016, 09:50:17 am
and:

Andy Cox: Can it be sorted?

Chris Hopkinson: I believe not. I have just received Official notification of DQ from the UMCA!!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on January 17, 2016, 10:05:36 am
Why is this coming from Hoppo and not the UMCA or Bruce?

The cynic in me says is saying that Hoppo has made a complaint and it has been upheld by the UMCA.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 17, 2016, 10:07:33 am
It doesn't matter in reality as Strava would give enough recognition anyway. After all, if anybody beats Tommy's 100,000 mile record, there is no means for 'official' recognition.

Agree, the accreditation thing is a red herring.  What matters is what people believe, based on the evidence we have.  In the internet / Strava age, with informed scrutiny from thousands of people, it doesn't require a body such as UMCA to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a thing has been done.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Justin(e) on January 17, 2016, 10:11:05 am
The only reason that UMCA has any authority over the record is because Steve decided to do it under their banner.  Kurt followed suit and that added some credibility.

However, the HAMR is something that lives in the minds of the community participating in this event.   For me, I congratulate Kurt on the official record, but deep down I know that TG rode more miles in one 12 month period (and calendar year) than any man ever in history.

If Bruce manages to surpass this number in 365 days, then he will be the holder of the record - I don't care what UMCA says or does not say.  Allez Bruce.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on January 17, 2016, 10:24:49 am
<Snip>
I don't care what UMCA says or does not say.  Allez Bruce.

There has to be some rules though, 365 days of moto-pacing would be a very different record
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 17, 2016, 10:25:40 am
If the UMCA really are going to disqualify someone whose track record and bona fides seem so rock solid, then they need to have a damned good reason and to be very open about it, otherwise it will be them that will be judged, and not the person they are disqualifying.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 17, 2016, 10:35:49 am
I note that he wasn't on the umca leaderboard and isn't now. Did he fail to properly register his attempt with them?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 17, 2016, 10:44:03 am
I note that he wasn't on the umca leaderboard and isn't now. Did he fail to properly register his attempt with them?

I think UMCA are volunteers as well.  The website has always lagged.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 17, 2016, 11:08:10 am
The only reason that UMCA has any authority over the record is because Steve decided to do it under their banner.  Kurt followed suit and that added some credibility.

However, the HAMR is something that lives in the minds of the community participating in this event.   For me, I congratulate Kurt on the official record, but deep down I know that TG rode more miles in one 12 month period (and calendar year) than any man ever in history.

If Bruce manages to surpass this number in 365 days, then he will be the holder of the record - I don't care what UMCA says or does not say.  Allez Bruce.



I'm pretty sure that Tommy didn't claim a retrospective record for the highest mileage in 365 consecutive days, and I don't think anyone else should claim it on his behalf. He stated the dates between which his record attempt would take place, and that is the mileage that counts. And Kurt beat him.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 17, 2016, 11:18:48 am
To be pedantic, Tommy set a year record (1 Jan to 31 Dec). Kurt set a 365 consecutive days record, which isn't exactly the same thing.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 17, 2016, 11:29:36 am
And the UMCA didn't recognise Tommy's record since it wasn't done under their watch.

What generally happens is that someone sets up another entity to ratify records, and accepts records done under the watch of certain other entities (e.g. Guinness, UMCA). That way the record ends up being unified at some point.

Just uploading rides to Strava itself shouldn't be classed as solid proof, I can create convincing GPX files (including power or HR data) that would pass close scrutiny. This is why UMCA and Guinness require some photo/video evidence from the riders too (and UMCA require live tracking).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 17, 2016, 11:49:31 am
However, the HAMR is something that lives in the minds of the community participating in this event.   For me, I congratulate Kurt on the official record, but deep down I know that TG rode more miles in one 12 month period (and calendar year) than any man ever in history.

If Bruce manages to surpass this number in 365 days, then he will be the holder of the record - I don't care what UMCA says or does not say.  Allez Bruce.

Yes, I had been hoping that Kurt would surpass Tommy's highest total in a 365-day period to unify the record.  So I hope that Bruce does too: that should be his real target.
AIUI Tommy's best 365 days was not a pre-set goal but there's no getting away from the fact that it is the furthest ridden by anyone in a non-calendar year so Kurt's record - while a magnificent acheivement - will always have to have an asterisk and a footnote against it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 17, 2016, 11:56:53 am
(Edited to remove rudeness)

Kurt got the record. No qualification needed.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Von Broad on January 17, 2016, 12:00:12 pm
However, the HAMR is something that lives in the minds of the community participating in this event.   For me, I congratulate Kurt on the official record, but deep down I know that TG rode more miles in one 12 month period (and calendar year) than any man ever in history.

If Bruce manages to surpass this number in 365 days, then he will be the holder of the record - I don't care what UMCA says or does not say.  Allez Bruce.

Yes, I had been hoping that Kurt would surpass Tommy's highest total in a 365-day period to unify the record.  So I hope that Bruce does too: that should be his real target.
AIUI Tommy's best 365 days was not a pre-set goal but there's no getting away from the fact that it is the furthest ridden by anyone in a non-calendar year so Kurt's record - while a magnificent acheivement - will always have to have an asterisk and a footnote against it.
Sorry to ask if it's already been posted, but what is that non-calendar 365 total set by TG?
Just out of interest - was Kurt ever aware of that? Has Steve ever mentioned it?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 17, 2016, 12:03:03 pm
I think Jo's research has indicated that it is some way in excess of 76000, but I can't remember exactly where he mentioned this. No doubt Citizen Fish is the person to ask.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 17, 2016, 12:04:38 pm
That would be a great shame if Bruce's efforts are not authenticated by UMCA or another 'official' body. He's got off to a cracking start and shows every sign of possessing the drive and consistency necessary to break the record.

I am a believer in a 'crowdsourced validation' – if we trust the record, it has de facto legitimacy. My only slight reservation, apart from the need to be reassured that the logged miles are legitimate, is that the recording mechanism of previous records does itself have a cost to the riders, so makes comparisons a little more difficult if future record holders were not obliged to follow the same. In Tommy's case, most obviously, was the need for signed witness cards, which over the year must have accumulated a lot of 'wasted' time. In Steve's case, we know of at least one day where problems with the spot satellite tracker cost him some time to sort out. Perhaps this isn't much in the scheme of things, but something to consider.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 17, 2016, 12:08:41 pm
Kurt got the record. No qualification needed.

Absolutely.

An irrelevant distraction to demote a non Jan 1st-Dec 31st record. In an international competition, January has no particular seasonal importance. If people want to create their own internal British January 1st-December 31st league table, they are free to do so, but Kurt completed the record entirely within the rules agreed before he started.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 17, 2016, 12:09:42 pm
Quite.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 17, 2016, 12:26:29 pm
Kurt got the record. No qualification needed.

Absolutely.

Every single year record before Kurt was ridden 1 Jan to 31 Dec. This was at the expense of not having a bike to ride during the first few days for one or two of the record holders.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 17, 2016, 12:59:33 pm
The official results spreadsheet which was last updated on the 11th makes no mention of Bruce Berkeley. That would tend to suggest a problem with his entry.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 17, 2016, 01:03:04 pm
Every single year record before Kurt was ridden 1 Jan to 31 Dec. This was at the expense of not having a bike to ride during the first few days for one or two of the record holders.
Well, that would make 2016 a great year to attempt the record cos that means you would get an extra day to do it in......
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on January 17, 2016, 01:26:22 pm
The official results spreadsheet which was last updated on the 11th makes no mention of Bruce Berkeley. That would tend to suggest a problem with his entry.
Well, that would make 2016 a great year to attempt the record cos that means you would get an extra day to do it in......

You don't, as has been mentioned before.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on January 17, 2016, 01:42:13 pm
I think Jo's research has indicated that it is some way in excess of 76000, but I can't remember exactly where he mentioned this. No doubt Citizen Fish is the person to ask.

The figure is 77201 miles I am pretty confident in this total after a lot of cross checking of his diary numbers. BUT BUT BUT as stated by Jo and others this record has ALWAYS been about miles from a stated start date. The same stands for the month record as well. Godwin rode further than Brice in a month but never stated his intention to do so and hence cannot retrospectively claim the record.

The UMCA officially recognise Godwin's 75,065 figure as a "benchmark" not a record. Kurt has the year record and someone should update Wikipedia etc.. accordingly. I will when I get a moment.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 17, 2016, 01:43:54 pm
Why is this coming from Hoppo and not the UMCA or Bruce?

The cynic in me says is saying that Hoppo has made a complaint and it has been upheld by the UMCA.

from Hoppo on Facebook

In answer to the questions being raised on YACF as to why it is on here first is.....
1. I have my finger on the pulse!
2. I do not and will not use YACF!
3. I have said that if you want to know what is going on 1st you need to be on here!!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on January 17, 2016, 01:54:15 pm
Why is this coming from Hoppo and not the UMCA or Bruce?

The cynic in me says is saying that Hoppo has made a complaint and it has been upheld by the UMCA.

from Hoppo on Facebook

In answer to the questions being raised on YACF as to why it is on here first is.....
1. I have my finger on the pulse!
2. I do not and will not use YACF!
3. I have said that if you want to know what is going on 1st you need to be on here!!

post edited - it does not help anyone - apologies.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 17, 2016, 01:57:48 pm
An unnecessarily confrontational response (by LMT) in the lack of actual information. I feel regret that for whatever reason, the whole of YACF is seen as somewhere Hoppo doesn't respect. Perhaps responses like that above only confirm prejudice about this place.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: drgannet on January 17, 2016, 02:02:18 pm

The figure is 77201 miles I am pretty confident in this total after a lot of cross checking of his diary numbers.
[/quote

Can you remember between which dates this occurred (and does it exclude 29th February)?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 17, 2016, 02:11:45 pm
An unnecessarily confrontational response (by LMT) in the lack of actual information. I feel regret that for whatever reason, the whole of YACF is seen as somewhere Hoppo doesn't respect. Perhaps responses like that above only confirm prejudice about this place.
Another possible UCR:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on January 17, 2016, 02:16:15 pm
I don't know about that, but as we are re-posting facebook comments, here's the latest, with which I have some sympathy:

Quote
Chris, don't you think it's you that should be giving the UMCA a chance to make an official announcement before posting AND tagging Bruce for all to see? It makes the UMCA look disgraceful if this is how they communicate to athletes and followers of the record. Is that really why they tell Crew Chiefs first, so that they can post 'WOW' messages on social media and blame the time difference on not being able to provide a better message? It shows zero respect to Bruce, someone that's dedicating a year of his life to this record and by doing so is also promoting the UMCA. What a slap in the face!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 17, 2016, 02:21:11 pm
That would be a great shame if Bruce's efforts are not authenticated by UMCA or another 'official' body. He's got off to a cracking start and shows every sign of possessing the drive and consistency necessary to break the record.

I am a believer in a 'crowdsourced validation' – if we trust the record, it has de facto legitimacy. My only slight reservation, apart from the need to be reassured that the logged miles are legitimate, is that the recording mechanism of previous records does itself have a cost to the riders, so makes comparisons a little more difficult if future record holders were not obliged to follow the same. In Tommy's case, most obviously, was the need for signed witness cards, which over the year must have accumulated a lot of 'wasted' time. In Steve's case, we know of at least one day where problems with the spot satellite tracker cost him some time to sort out. Perhaps this isn't much in the scheme of things, but something to consider.
Completely agree with your 1st point. We really dont need a 'world boxing champion' type farce :(

But another factor against crowdsourced validation:
Imagine Bruce breaks the record without the UMCA. He might become known as the record-holder if us, Strava and Cycling Weekly believe him. Fine so far ...

Then further UMCA riders come along. Hoppo breaks Bruce's record, then Steve puts another 5000 miles on top etc etc ( :P )
There will then be a list on the UMCA site with no mention of Bruce's ride. A sad situation.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on January 17, 2016, 02:24:55 pm
That would be a great shame if Bruce's efforts are not authenticated by UMCA or another 'official' body. He's got off to a cracking start and shows every sign of possessing the drive and consistency necessary to break the record.

I am a believer in a 'crowdsourced validation' – if we trust the record, it has de facto legitimacy. My only slight reservation, apart from the need to be reassured that the logged miles are legitimate, is that the recording mechanism of previous records does itself have a cost to the riders, so makes comparisons a little more difficult if future record holders were not obliged to follow the same. In Tommy's case, most obviously, was the need for signed witness cards, which over the year must have accumulated a lot of 'wasted' time. In Steve's case, we know of at least one day where problems with the spot satellite tracker cost him some time to sort out. Perhaps this isn't much in the scheme of things, but something to consider.
Completely agree with your 1st point. We really dont need a 'world boxing champion' type farce :(

But another factor against crowdsourced validation:
Imagine Bruce breaks the record without the UMCA. He might become known as the record-holder if us, Strava and Cycling Weekly believe him. Fine so far ...

Then further UMCA riders come along. Hoppo breaks Bruce's record, then Steve puts another 5000 miles on top etc etc ( :P )
There will then be a list on the UMCA site with no mention of Bruce's ride. A sad situation.

I suspect ultimately that will be more UMCA's problem than Bruce's. Given that he is doing it with major sponsorship from some big cycling product manufacturers,  many more people will know about Bruce than will know about UMCA. A great shame if it does start fractioning, though.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: drgannet on January 17, 2016, 02:35:48 pm
A great shame if it does start fractioning, though.

It's already started, because UMCA will not recognise Kajsa's attempt if she succeeds (will be interesting to see if they replace Billie's "target" on their website).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Willesden guy on January 17, 2016, 02:40:15 pm
I emailed Drew Clark of UMCA a few days ago, asking about the missing data on Steve's chart, and the answer was he does not maintain that chart, it relies on Strava data that does not always work well.

I asked why Bruce Berkeley was not on their charts and the answer was "depends on how soon and completely he complies".

So, it seems they haven't logged any of his rides.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 17, 2016, 02:58:28 pm
An unnecessarily confrontational response (by LMT) in the lack of actual information. I feel regret that for whatever reason, the whole of YACF is seen as somewhere Hoppo doesn't respect. Perhaps responses like that above only confirm prejudice about this place.
Another possible UCR:

(click to show/hide)

Truth hurts sometimes.

If we open up Hoppo threads here, mods will be very likely to close them.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: macnark on January 17, 2016, 03:03:23 pm
Did UMCA ever acknowledge Wilko's 541 mile 24 hr record?

If not, does that mean he didn't do it?

I am not a fan of 'members only' records.  We are all just individuals on a small rock
doing our best, whether in USA, UK, Australia etc.

I'd like there to be cross-recognition between competent bodies to make a world record
which was adjudicated by one body be accepted by another, if the rules are common.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 17, 2016, 03:52:08 pm
Did UMCA ever acknowledge Wilko's 541 mile 24 hr record?

If not, does that mean he didn't do it?

I am not a fan of 'members only' records.  We are all just individuals on a small rock
doing our best, whether in USA, UK, Australia etc.

I'd like there to be cross-recognition between competent bodies to make a world record
which was adjudicated by one body be accepted by another, if the rules are common.

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

The Brits are almost as bad though. Wilko set the End to End record on a faired recumbent and the Road Records Association doesn't recognise it, because apparently they don't recognise recumbents at all (same at Cycling Time Trials). This despite Wilko's ride being timed by RRA folk and being held under RRA rules.

The UMCA used to have limited recognition of existing records but that approach seems to have died out.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 17, 2016, 04:21:28 pm

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.


Kind of like every other cycling body. 

Bruce Berkeley signed up to the UMCA rules, so you might imagine he wanted to play by them.  He says it's their administrative error, so perhaps there's a discussion going on (Kurt argued with UMCA and won on one or two occasions).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on January 17, 2016, 04:24:02 pm
The only suggestion (which has no provenance so is little more than tittle tattle) is that he hasn't been using a tracker. I assume this is a tracking service as opposed to a GPX recorder, which he clearly is. It sounds like a frightfully easy thing to fix, if it is.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 17, 2016, 04:31:33 pm
17 days in though, surely they would have flagged him for that sooner?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 17, 2016, 04:36:16 pm


No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

The Brits are almost as bad though. Wilko set the End to End record on a faired recumbent and the Road Records Association doesn't recognise it, because apparently they don't recognise recumbents at all (same at Cycling Time Trials). This despite Wilko's ride being timed by RRA folk and being held under RRA rules.

The UMCA used to have limited recognition of existing records but that approach seems to have died out.


The situation with Wilko's Windcheetah ride would have been annoying if he hadn't been the record holder on a conventional bike at the same time. It was interesting to compare the two results.

I quite like the multiplicity of different bodies, it allows people to judge who they feel has the 'Right Stuff'.

There'll be people who think Guy Martin's 24 hour UMCA tandem record is significant, while others realise that they'd started out trying to beat the Goodfellows' tandem record, and realised that was too challenging.

Ranking these 'records' makes a diverting activity for a cold January evening.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 17, 2016, 05:17:59 pm
Yes, there's no universal authority on things like this.  It's up to each of us to choose who and what we recognise as the record. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jacamo on January 17, 2016, 05:26:50 pm

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.


They even ignore non-UMCA member racers in races that they sanction. You could come in dead last, yet if you were the only UMCA member in that race you'd be listed as finishing #1 and get 1st place points towards UMCA challenges. Hoppo uses this to great benefit. Outside of a handful of races, he only attends those with limited competition, and/or those with a limited UMCA membership taking part. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 17, 2016, 05:29:36 pm
There are different levels of authority. 'Records' occur in different contexts. Sightings of birds are 'Records', as are weather data. We often use 'Records' as shorthand for the highest recorded figure, but that's readily discounted if the recorder has little track record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 17, 2016, 05:30:22 pm
Can a nonmember win an audax uk points championship?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 17, 2016, 05:30:30 pm
I think, given the ease with which GPX/TCX tracks can be edited, the need for an independent tracker is a reasonable precaution for a recognising body to take, whoever they might be. If there's an issue with that (eg it's not working/he didn't get one/it's not recording in the correct format or place), then I hope it's being sorted out behind the scenes. If it means Bruce has to start again - just like Steve and Miles did - then, bummer, but so be it. No matter how much faith you have in Bruce (or anyone else), a series of Strava recordings isn't secure enough to reliably claim a record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 17, 2016, 05:33:22 pm
What is really required is a track recording device that can digitally sign tracks.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 17, 2016, 05:42:07 pm
Can a nonmember win an audax uk points championship?

You could get half those points on a moped though, it's not very intensively recorded.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 17, 2016, 05:58:28 pm
What is really required is a track recording device that can digitally sign tracks.
They can be fiddled as well. Computer security is a war. What works one day does not the next.

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 17, 2016, 06:37:31 pm

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.



Guinness recognise an unpaced 24 Hour record from 2010 on a track in Brescia by Marko Baloh. That was officiated by UMCA. One of the three officials was Hoppo, if I recall correctly. http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/greatest-distance-cycled-in-24-hours-(unpaced)-/

Baloh won the UMCA World TT Championships last November with 502.1 miles. 24 Hour TT results in the USA are starting to approach those in the UK.
http://my2.raceresult.com/39343/results?lang=en#24_322C57
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 17, 2016, 06:42:52 pm
Agree that files uploaded to strava alone are not valid proof, even I could falsify them and I'm a numpty.
With the extra pressure to succeed that sponsors bring a tracker is essential proof.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 17, 2016, 07:03:11 pm
From 1st Jan on this thread...

Is he live-tracking somewhere (Required under rule 7 of the UMCA HAM'R)? I see that the rules require at least one of heart rate or power readings, and as he has submitted power via Strava, that at least is covered.

Yes. He is initially using a phone app, but moving to SPOT soon. As soon as he does I will get him added to Trackleaders.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mcshroom on January 17, 2016, 07:29:09 pm

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.


Kind of like every other cycling body. 

Bruce Berkeley signed up to the UMCA rules, so you might imagine he wanted to play by them.  He says it's their administrative error, so perhaps there's a discussion going on (Kurt argued with UMCA and won on one or two occasions).

It's possible. For whatever reason the UMCA have emailed crew chiefs it seems, but not chosen to make the information public. In which case I would have hoped all people trusted with that information would have sat on it until the UMCA decided to announce what they were doing. Pre-empting on Facebook is pretty disrespectful IMHO.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mustgettaller on January 17, 2016, 07:47:44 pm
It's possible. For whatever reason the UMCA have emailed crew chiefs it seems, but not chosen to make the information public. In which case I would have hoped all people trusted with that information would have sat on it until the UMCA decided to announce what they were doing. Pre-empting on Facebook is pretty disrespectful IMHO.

I agree. Hoppo clearly doesn't, and doesn't see anything wrong with publicising something which by intimation was not for public broadcast. Oh well.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mcshroom on January 17, 2016, 08:31:59 pm
It's possible. For whatever reason the UMCA have emailed crew chiefs it seems, but not chosen to make the information public. In which case I would have hoped all people trusted with that information would have sat on it until the UMCA decided to announce what they were doing. Pre-empting on Facebook is pretty disrespectful IMHO.

I agree. Hoppo clearly doesn't, and doesn't see anything wrong with publicising something which by intimation was not for public broadcast. Oh well.

Lets just hope it doesn't cause problems should Steve need to negotiate something with the UMCA later in the year. :-\
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hippy on January 17, 2016, 08:34:57 pm

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.



Guinness recognise an unpaced 24 Hour record from 2010 on a track in Brescia by Marko Baloh. That was officiated by UMCA. One of the three officials was Hoppo, if I recall correctly. http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/greatest-distance-cycled-in-24-hours-(unpaced)-/

Baloh won the UMCA World TT Championships last November with 502.1 miles. 24 Hour TT results in the USA are starting to approach those in the UK.
http://my2.raceresult.com/39343/results?lang=en#24_322C57

They're somewhat limited because of the pit system the US use - you can't get handups from anywhere on the course.

Also, Marko has ridden a 521mi at the Sebring 24hr in the US and held both the outdoor and indoor track records (UMCA/Guinness).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 17, 2016, 08:37:26 pm
Marko was on the start sheet for the Mersey Roads one year. We were looking forward to see how he might do.

I did wonder if Bruce had fallen foul of the rule about unregistered support cars while riding with pro-teams on training runs.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 17, 2016, 09:01:44 pm
What is really required is a track recording device that can digitally sign tracks.
They can be fiddled as well. Computer security is a war. What works one day does not the next.

No, there's a clear way it could be done so that it is very unlikely to be fiddled. Certain parts of computer security are quite secure. The question is how easily it can be subverted (for this it would be a question of who gets access to the private keys, and it's possible to limit that access quite but not perfectly well, but with little gain from doing so I doubt it would be much of a target, so it would remain quite secure and trustworthy.)

A device that cryptographically signs the trackpoints it logs would be very useful, and very very hard to spoof.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mustgettaller on January 17, 2016, 09:08:00 pm
No, there's a clear way it could be done so that it is very unlikely to be fiddled. Certain parts of computer security are quite secure. The question is how easily it can be subverted (for this it would be a question of who gets access to the private keys, and it's possible to limit that access quite but not perfectly well.)

A device that cryptographically signs the trackpoints it logs would be very useful, and very very hard to spoof.
Agreed - digital signing would be the answer - but needs buy-in from suppliers. In general, GPS devices used by cyclists (and most sportspeople) are for personal performance recording purposes, not validation, so the market for a 'secure' device which signs the output is pretty low.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 17, 2016, 09:18:20 pm
If only this had been discussed years ago. Oh. https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=72887.msg1506127#msg1506127
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: JonBuoy on January 17, 2016, 09:35:02 pm
Do you mean this sort of thing ?  http://www.lxnav.com/products/nano.html

Unfortunately no HR data etc.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 17, 2016, 09:50:45 pm
There were, of course, the two alcohol-related issues about this time last year. There was the bottle of wine on LWaB's sideboard that had UMCA jumping up and down, and then there was Kurt's after-ride beers, which initially seemed to be in breach of the rules and then, subsequently, wasn't.

I don't intend this in any way to be seen to be having a pop at Kurt - it isn't. However, if the UMCa want to be taken seriously as an impartial arbiter of the annual mileage record, the they have to be seen to be impartial. If there is a problem with Bruce's challenge then that problem, in the form of the eqivalent of a first warning, should have been made public, along with any possible sanctions for future infringements. A straight disqualification with no warning is not in the nature of any sport that I am aware of.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 17, 2016, 09:53:09 pm
It's all very well knowing where the device is, but it's the rider we are interested in. Perhaps they should be 'chipped'.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mcshroom on January 17, 2016, 09:59:35 pm
There were, of course, the two alcohol-related issues about this time last year. There was the bottle of wine on LWaB's sideboard that had UMCA jumping up and down, and then there was Kurt's after-ride beers, which initially seemed to be in breach of the rules and then, subsequently, wasn't.

I don't intend this in any way to be seen to be having a pop at Kurt - it isn't. However, if the UMCa want to be taken seriously as an impartial arbiter of the annual mileage record, the they have to be seen to be impartial. If there is a problem with Bruce's challenge then that problem, in the form of the eqivalent of a first warning, should have been made public, along with any possible sanctions for future infringements. A straight disqualification with no warning is not in the nature of any sport that I am aware of.

If that's what has happened. All we have to go on are the not particularly informative posts of Steve's Crew Chief about a fellow competitor saying he's been DQd, and Bruce's team on Strava saying it's an admin error at the UMCA end. That's the problem with leaks, however 'on the pulse' the leaker believes their finger is.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 17, 2016, 10:05:06 pm
Indeed, if that is what has happened. I find it hard to believe that they don't know about Hoppo's leak. If it's true, they need urgently to issue a statement that deals with it and, if not, they need to slap Hoppo down very smartly. Otherwise, they look weak and ineffectual.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 17, 2016, 10:52:21 pm
Did UMCA ever acknowledge Wilko's 541 mile 24 hr record?

If not, does that mean he didn't do it?

I am not a fan of 'members only' records.  We are all just individuals on a small rock
doing our best, whether in USA, UK, Australia etc.

I'd like there to be cross-recognition between competent bodies to make a world record
which was adjudicated by one body be accepted by another, if the rules are common.

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

The Brits are almost as bad though. Wilko set the End to End record on a faired recumbent and the Road Records Association doesn't recognise it, because apparently they don't recognise recumbents at all (same at Cycling Time Trials). This despite Wilko's ride being timed by RRA folk and being held under RRA rules.

The UMCA used to have limited recognition of existing records but that approach seems to have died out.

Some years ago I read that there was a plan to merge existing UMCA, IHPVA and RTTC (as it was then) records, but nothing ever seemed to come of it.  Currently there are issues getting IHPVA records recognised by WHPVA as the latter want details of the course survey and timing equipment certification and the former won't release them ::-)

Didn't some hippie radical come up with the phrase or saying "Politics is pigshit"?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: teamcinzano on January 18, 2016, 03:19:33 am
Here's UMCA's confirmation. It's not exactly forthcoming, and says nothing about what the compliance issue was:

http://www.ultracycling.com/wp_news/?p=967

Quote
Bruce Berkeley has been officially disqualified in his HAM’R attempt.   He was not in compliance with the rules when he started.  The UMCA gave him several chances to become compliant but he did nothing to avail himself of those chances. He never came into full compliance.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on January 18, 2016, 05:31:07 am
As Ham says, can only see it being live tracking, I wonder if he was relying on the Strava active friends thing for premium members and the UMCA have said not good enough

Be interesting to see what he does now.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: ElyDave on January 18, 2016, 08:30:28 am
How many days into the attempt was he, not many I think? 

Surely he has the opportunity now to get compliant, start again and call this a practice run?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: macnark on January 18, 2016, 08:57:53 am
From his Strava comment this morning, looks like he couldn't give a monkey's about UMCA

"In response to all this Rubbish from HAMR (who are not officiating on my record attempt!!) I'll just ride my bike, and hit the numbers again!"
https://www.strava.com/activities/472923073


Isn't Hopkinson on the Board of Directors of UMCA?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 18, 2016, 09:21:43 am
Bruce has got enough exposure and previous track record to show what he is capable of and should not worry about umca validation. if he beats the record (and i wish him all the best) it will be there for the future competitors to aspire to.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rafletcher on January 18, 2016, 09:27:57 am
Quote from: macnark link=topic=93962.msg1975613#msg1975613 date=1453107473

Isn't Hopkinson on the Board of Directors of UMCA?
[/quote

No longer, but continues to function as "northern European liaison" apparently.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 18, 2016, 09:34:33 am
It's very unfortunate how the news has come out, and, for all his other qualities, I feel Chris Hopkinson has acted unprofessionally, and in a very unsporting manner.  I've unfriended him on FaceBook, which I imagine bothers him not a jot.

I am glad to hear Bruce is still riding, and I hope that he can set a mark that we can recognise, though, without the likes of UMCA and Guinness behind him, I imagine that there will be quibbles about the validity that will go round in circles forever, getting more and more heated.

Really not sure how this is going to turn out.  I would have thought UMCA would have checked appropriate systems were in place before the start, otherwise it becomes a farce.  Anyway, I wish him tailwinds and flint-free roads.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: fboab on January 18, 2016, 09:34:56 am
So who is officiating? Guinness?
Because he'll struggle to start each day where he finished the previous if he plans to return from Oz...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 18, 2016, 09:36:12 am
Quite.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on January 18, 2016, 09:37:48 am
It's very unfortunate how the news has come out, and, for all his other qualities, I feel Chris Hopkinson has acted unprofessionally, and in a very unsporting manner.  I've unfriended him on FaceBook, which I imagine bothers him not a jot.

I am glad to hear Bruce is still riding, and I hope that he can set a mark that we can recognise, though, without the likes of UMCA and Guinness behind him, I imagine that there will be quibbles about the validity that will go round in the narrow circles that comprise cycling clubs and online forumsforever, getting more and more heated while the rest of the world will just applaud the feat.

Really not sure how this is going to turn out.  I would have thought UMCA would have checked appropriate systems were in place before the start, otherwise it becomes a farce.  Anyway, I wish him tailwinds and flint-free roads.

FTFY
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 18, 2016, 09:38:46 am
So who is officiating? Guinness?
Because he'll struggle to start each day where he finished the previous if he plans to return from Oz...

No. I suspect he is doing the crowd-sourced thing and just posting each day's total on Strava.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: PeeJay on January 18, 2016, 09:39:37 am
So who is officiating? Guinness?
Because he'll struggle to start each day where he finished the previous if he plans to return from Oz...

He's already fallen foul of the no drafting rule that Guinness insist on.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 18, 2016, 09:40:28 am
It's very unfortunate how the news has come out, and, for all his other qualities, I feel Chris Hopkinson has acted unprofessionally, and in a very unsporting manner.  I've unfriended him on FaceBook, which I imagine bothers him not a jot.

I am glad to hear Bruce is still riding, and I hope that he can set a mark that we can recognise, though, without the likes of UMCA and Guinness behind him, I imagine that there will be quibbles about the validity that will go round in the narrow circles that comprise cycling clubs and online forumsforever, getting more and more heated while the rest of the world will just applaud the feat.

Really not sure how this is going to turn out.  I would have thought UMCA would have checked appropriate systems were in place before the start, otherwise it becomes a farce.  Anyway, I wish him tailwinds and flint-free roads.

FTFY
Normally I object to FTFY... ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rafletcher on January 18, 2016, 09:40:58 am
So who is officiating? Guinness?
Because he'll struggle to start each day where he finished the previous if he plans to return from Oz...

Well Kajsa's planning on cycling in Denmark and Sweden, so there is presumably a mechanism for transport "jumps" in the Guinness protocol?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 18, 2016, 09:41:20 am
With the UMCA no longer recognising Bruce's efforts, I think he really needs someone to do so if he wants a claim on the most miles in a year. I am sure that there is no one on here who doubts his bona fides but suppose he does beat Kurt or, if Steve manages to pull something out of the bag, whatever total he makes? If no-one else makes a challenge for years afterwards, will anyone recognise it? The internet is still too young a tool for its historical significance, in this case based upon a collection of .gpx files, to be clear.

How much will Kurt's tracker files matter in years to come, if that is the sticking point?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on January 18, 2016, 09:42:00 am
There's always Wikipedia to hold records of achievements, irrespective of who has sanctioned them, and the space to add explanatory comment as to the whys and wherefores of the attempt.  That allows the reader to make their own judgement. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 18, 2016, 09:44:01 am
True. "Citation needed" could link to every .gpx file he uploads.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 18, 2016, 09:47:31 am
I see that Wikipedia has not bedn updated since Kurt broke the record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mcshroom on January 18, 2016, 09:49:31 am
Isn't Bruce writing for Bike Radar during the attempt? Could they (or one of their magazines) be the verifier?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: IJL on January 18, 2016, 09:50:14 am
Without the UMCA or some other body it becomes a record validated by Strava, there are rules for a reason, they dont seem to be over complex.

I'm not sure its the UMCA's role to check that people are compliant before they start rather for people to read the rules and be sure they comply.  If this all about a lack of tracker i would wonder why. they are not expensive or complicated. 

If however the DQ is down to some bizzare (UCI style) technical issue the is does not present the UMCA in a good light, neither does the manner in which this has become public
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: fboab on January 18, 2016, 09:51:07 am
Isn't Bruce writing for Bike Radar during the attempt? Could they (or one of their magazines) be the verifier?
That would make it very much in keeping with Tommy Godwin's.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 18, 2016, 09:52:21 am
I'm not sure its the UMCA's role to check that people are compliant before they start rather for people to read the rules and be sure they comply.  If this all about a lack of tracker i would wonder why. they are not expensive or complicated. 

It should also have come to light before he started, the rules state:-

Quote
Tracking/recording devices shall be tested at least two weeks prior to the start of the attempt to ensure that the Records Chairman will be able to access the data.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 18, 2016, 10:06:17 am
I'm not sure its the UMCA's role to check that people are compliant before they start rather for people to read the rules and be sure they comply.  If this all about a lack of tracker i would wonder why. they are not expensive or complicated. 

It should also have come to light before he started, the rules state:-

Quote
Tracking/recording devices shall be tested at least two weeks prior to the start of the attempt to ensure that the Records Chairman will be able to access the data.

The UMCA have been extremely accommodating/helpful to all the participants (the phrase "in the spirit" comes to mind).  Perhaps they should have been more rigorous in this case.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hippy on January 18, 2016, 10:29:40 am
Bruce has got enough exposure and previous track record to show what he is capable of and should not worry about umca validation. if he beats the record (and i wish him all the best) it will be there for the future competitors to aspire to.

Unless people don't believe he has broken the record due to a lack of sufficient validation. Anyone could go out riding for a bit and then doctor their GPS files.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 18, 2016, 10:36:45 am
Or use tracker-faking software.
http://fakegps.com
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Legs on January 18, 2016, 10:49:42 am
Or get someone else to ride their bike for them while they have a quick break.  Or...

Sooner or later there's got to be some trust along the line.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 18, 2016, 10:56:05 am
AIUI the purpose of the tracker is so that they can potentially send someone out at random times to check that you are where you say you are, riding in accordance with their rules.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ivo on January 18, 2016, 11:00:07 am
AIUI the purpose of the tracker is so that they can potentially send someone out at random times to check that you are where you say you are, riding in accordance with their rules.

And not only the UMCA but any member of the public.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 18, 2016, 11:17:57 am
I don't doubt for a second that he is doing the miles, but to claim a record I  think he has to have some form of external authentication. I think it is really short-sighted to think he can effectively go it alone and set a mark which will be universally recognised. It is a shame that he is continuing like this. I think the Bike Radar suggestion is a good one. At least some form of independent scrutiny is needed, and a set of rules for the attempt established.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: macnark on January 18, 2016, 11:23:33 am
Anyone have experience of this?

http://www8.garmin.com/livetrack/

Seems like an easy enough solution and a good alternative to Spot Tracker, or am I beeing thick?
Live data must be preferrable to an end of day summary.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 18, 2016, 11:25:23 am
It requires mobile phone coverage, which SPOT doesn't, as it's a satellite based system.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: velovoice on January 18, 2016, 11:42:04 am
UMCA say Bruce wasn't compliant on day 1, so he had 17 days to bring himself into compliance (presumably with lots of communications back and forth between him and his team with UMCA), until UMCA called it quits. The references on Bruce's part to "administrative errors on UMCA's end" lead me instead to wonder...  Did UMCA simply not receive the fee that Bruce needed to pay to be an official HAMR challenger? Presumably this would have involved a bank transfer from Australia -- maybe there was a problem with that?

Pure speculation on my part of course but it make more sense to me than the tracker theory.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 18, 2016, 11:46:53 am
AIUI the purpose of the tracker is so that they can potentially send someone out at random times to check that you are where you say you are, riding in accordance with their rules.

And not only the UMCA but any member of the public.

I've been in contact with various film-makers who've used trackers to try to rendezvous  with riders they've been following. The time lag makes that difficult.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 18, 2016, 12:27:45 pm
Interestingly Bruce can claim the highest mileage in 1 month "world record" because it was officially recognised
where as we all know that Teethgrinder, Tommy Godwin and Kurt have all ridden further.

He must be careful.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 18, 2016, 12:29:33 pm
I see that Wikipedia has not bedn updated since Kurt broke the record.

That can be very easily remedied, you know.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on January 18, 2016, 12:58:23 pm
Looking at his recent Strava upload comments. It appears that the UMCA from the offset were not in the loop to ratify his record - that's that way I read it anyways.

Much ado about nothing, keep turning those pedals Bruce! :)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 18, 2016, 01:36:43 pm
Interestingly Bruce can claim the highest mileage in 1 month "world record" because it was officially recognised
where as we all know that Teethgrinder, Tommy Godwin and Kurt have all ridden further.

He must be careful.

I agree. GPX/TCX tracks are essentially text files, and are easily manufactured. Bruce doesn't use a heart rate monitor, so there's no way to prove beyond doubt that he rode where he said he rode, and that it was actually him that did it. No-one else is verifying his effort by witnessing the events (which, I believe, is at least in part how Tommy's ride was recorded), so, without the umbrella of a monitoring organisation, his ride will carry little weight and will appear in history as no more than a footnote. That's a pitiful reward for all that effort!

UCMA may be twunts, but they give Kurt and Steve's efforts credibility.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on January 18, 2016, 02:06:36 pm
I see that Wikipedia has not bedn updated since Kurt broke the record.

That can be very easily remedied, you know.

I started doing it at the weekend but the mark-up is so horrendous I backed off until such time as I can put some proper effort into it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 18, 2016, 02:09:29 pm
That is really harsh on UMCA. 
They are doing a reasonable job overseeing the record attempts. 
I don't detect any twuntage.

Bruce's attempt didn't comply for some reason. UMCA appear to have given Bruce a reasonable opportunity to amend the situation.  He didn't. So they are in their rights to DQ Bruce.

Bruce can carry on. He may even tally up enough miles for an unofficial record.  But that's all it will be. Unofficial and anecdotal to "history".

This board bemuses me at the moment.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 18, 2016, 02:18:40 pm
I agree. GPX/TCX tracks are essentially text files, and are easily manufactured. Bruce doesn't use a heart rate monitor, so there's no way to prove beyond doubt that he rode where he said he rode, and that it was actually him that did it.

The HR data wouldn't prove that either, it's just more data in the existing files (even the binary .fit files are easy to fake). Bruce is collecting power data (the UMCA ask for power or HR along with time/location), and power data is harder to fake convincingly than HR data.

Live tracking (via a service like a SPOT tracker rather than a Garmin/Strava App) is the key though as it makes it many orders of magnitude harder to fake, and you risk being found out by random checks.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: nextSibling on January 18, 2016, 02:19:35 pm
UCMA may be twunts

I'm seeing no good evidence to conclude that.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 18, 2016, 03:13:19 pm
I see that Wikipedia has not bedn updated since Kurt broke the record.
Difficult to update Wikipedia when UMCA haven't updated their website.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 18, 2016, 03:46:27 pm
UCMA may be twunts

I'm seeing no good evidence to conclude that.


No, nor me - I'm just allowing for the possibility that the issue may be at their end. I make no judgement either way.

I agree. GPX/TCX tracks are essentially text files, and are easily manufactured. Bruce doesn't use a heart rate monitor, so there's no way to prove beyond doubt that he rode where he said he rode, and that it was actually him that did it.

The HR data wouldn't prove that either, it's just more data in the existing files (even the binary .fit files are easy to fake). Bruce is collecting power data (the UMCA ask for power or HR along with time/location), and power data is harder to fake convincingly than HR data.

Live tracking (via a service like a SPOT tracker rather than a Garmin/Strava App) is the key though as it makes it many orders of magnitude harder to fake, and you risk being found out by random checks.

I agree that live tracking is essential in verifying the attempt. However, I assumed (I don't actually know) that a heart trace would show characteristics unique to the rider, which could if necessary confirm that it was Bruce and not someone else (or a computer) that rode the recorded miles.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 18, 2016, 04:27:15 pm
The HR data wouldn't help, if you had someone ride instead who had a different resting HR and a different HR max it may stick out a bit, but it's easily fixed by transposing each figure into the expected range for Bruce. Also it may have been Bruce himself but under the weather a bit or suffering from a mild virus that caused his HR to be a bit higher than normal for the same effort.

Same with power data as that can be corrected for a heavier/lighter or more/less aerodynamic rider.

Creating fake data from scratch is quite hard, but cobbling it together from existing rides or portions thereof and making new rides that way is quite easy. Strava itself provides a huge corpus of data to base fake rides off.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 18, 2016, 06:37:25 pm
This is the UCMA statement(s):
www.ultracycling.com/wp_news/?p=967
(can't hurt to post twice!)

UCMA may be twunts

I'm seeing no good evidence to conclude that.


No, nor me - I'm just allowing for the possibility that the issue may be at their end. I make no judgement either way.

Tim, I've tried reading your post with every conceivable emphasis, and it still souns like you think they're twunts!

Oh well, you've set the record straight now!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 18, 2016, 07:07:39 pm
Quote
A note from Doug Hoffman, Executive Director of the UMCA:

At this time we are not going to explain further the reason for his disqualification. What we will say is that he was notified of the issues by every means at our disposal and offered support in resolving said issues.

If he were to desire to attempt a record with the UMCA as the regulating body at any time in the future and was willing to comply with published rules, we would welcome his participation.

 :-\
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 18, 2016, 07:13:39 pm
This is the UCMA statement(s):
www.ultracycling.com/wp_news/?p=967
(can't hurt to post twice!)

UCMA may be twunts

I'm seeing no good evidence to conclude that.


No, nor me - I'm just allowing for the possibility that the issue may be at their end. I make no judgement either way.

Tim, I've tried reading your post with every conceivable emphasis, and it still souns like you think they're twunts!

Oh well, you've set the record straight now!  :thumbsup:

Matt, it was simply that quite a few posts made here and elsewhere referred to UCMA disparagingly. Given Miles' similar dissatisfaction with UCMA, and the fact that Steve and Kurt both had slightly bizarre interactions with them about alcohol, I have to allow that UCMA may have screwed this up themselves and hence may be twunts! But of course they may not have screwed it up at all (and I have no evidence either way) in this case.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 18, 2016, 07:42:42 pm
Why are they being so secretive? Top sports people's efforts become public property and the only way the UMCA can command respect as the authority that gives authenticity to the MMIAY record is to be open about their decisions. When Lance Armstrong was stripped of his TdF titles, everyone knew why.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 18, 2016, 07:48:41 pm
Secretive? I'd say the statement is pretty clear.

Not wanting to get into an extended debate is fairly common for governing bodies;
arguably cos it can turn into mudslinging and "he said she said" type sagas, or
because the details may make said body look like "twunts" ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 18, 2016, 07:52:09 pm
It's not clear at all. We haven't been told what the issue is, other than that he hasn't complied with certain rules. It would help if they said which rules.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 18, 2016, 07:55:34 pm
Quote
At this time we are not going to explain further the reason for his disqualification.

Seems very clear to me.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 18, 2016, 07:58:35 pm
Yes, it's clear that they are not going to explain the reason for the disqualification. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 18, 2016, 08:02:04 pm
At this time. Yes.

They've probably been hounded by people asking why, so instead of saying nothing (and leaving people guessing as to what is going on) they've said "Stop asking, we'll explain in due course."
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 18, 2016, 08:09:38 pm
Way to kill the rumours and speculation, UMCA!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 18, 2016, 08:14:59 pm
I'd be surprised if it wasn't related to the lack of live satellite tracking. I imagine via phone is sufficiently unreliable (reception and battery issues) to cause problems.


Oh dear. I've fallen into the trap of filling an information void with speculation. Must. Stop. Now.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 18, 2016, 08:29:39 pm
They haven't explicitly ruled out Bruce being a lizard man from outer space, so I'm going with that for now.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 18, 2016, 08:32:02 pm
Could be. Although without satellite tracking we don't know whether the lizard man is from outer space or not.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Hummers on January 18, 2016, 10:26:56 pm
They haven't explicitly ruled out Bruce being a lizard man from outer space, so I'm going with that for now.

 ;D

H
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: swampthing on January 18, 2016, 11:18:42 pm
It's not clear at all. We haven't been told what the issue is, other than that he hasn't complied with certain rules. It would help if they said which rules.

I am missing much more a comment by Bruce Berkeley on the issue. I noticed he left the "UMCA/ HAMR"-club on Strava some days ago and I wondered why.

His short complaint about "all this Rubbish from HAMR" on Strava is not helpful. Kurt and Steve were and are able to comply with UMCA'S rules (Miles Smith is a different topic). So Bruce should explain why he can't. Poor communication by Bruce in my view.

PS: I gladly noticed that Kurt Searvogel just unfollowed IronOx.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hippy on January 18, 2016, 11:23:52 pm
Interestingly Bruce can claim the highest mileage in 1 month "world record" because it was officially recognised
where as we all know that Teethgrinder, Tommy Godwin and Kurt have all ridden further.

He must be careful.

Does he actually have the one month distance record? Guinness have it as a woman...
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 18, 2016, 11:33:51 pm
It's a shame that there's a lack of clarity about this, and an intimation from the UCMA that Bruce was deliberately non-compliant. None of this does either party any credit and, as I said earlier, the end result will be that Bruce's ride will be a footnote in cycling history, not a headline.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 12:51:24 am
Interestingly Bruce can claim the highest mileage in 1 month "world record" because it was officially recognised
where as we all know that Teethgrinder, Tommy Godwin and Kurt have all ridden further.

He must be careful.

Does he actually have the one month distance record? Guinness have it as a woman...
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month

A heartwarming story.

Quote
Verification has now to be received from Guinness World Records that she has completed all requirements of the endurance task that nobody has presented to them before – the longest distance cycled in a month.


Davison has had to submit thousands of photos, videos, daily logs, signed logbooks and gps files to prove her accomplishment.


The 152 miles cycled on Day 28 was the furthest she has ever ridden.

“Before I started the challenge I didn’t know how far I’d be able to ride in total,” she said.

“I knew that I could reach the target of 5000km (3107 miles) which Guinness World Records set for me.

“I was pleased that I reached over 4000 miles without my body complaining much.

“The best thing though has been how kind, helpful and enthusiastic other people were towards my challenge.

“During my rides I had to ask strangers to sign my logbook, and they were always helpful and a pleasure to meet.”

She is not about to put her feet up though.

“There’s a lot that needs doing in our garden, and I’d like to find some new work contracts. There’s also a cycling holiday to plan,” said Davison.


     
She is also using the challenge to help raise funds for Alzheimer’s Research UK and welcomes donations at http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/JanetDavison.

You can read her 30-day blog at Janet30DayCycle.blogspot.co.uk

http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/13645095.4010_miles_in_30_days_by_bike___that_s_how_Janet_spent_her_summer/

It would seem that Bruce didn't get the Guinness month record he claims, for whatever reason. A good spot by hippy.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 19, 2016, 07:27:44 am
Post on Strava by https://www.strava.com/athletes/2319211 (https://www.strava.com/athletes/2319211) - Sort of explains a few things. Quite how he missed the qualification rules and all that I have no idea. But it sounds like it will be an "unofficial" record attempt.

 Dear all - I know that Bruce doesnt have enough time to read all the posts, but also that he does really value everyones input. It make s ahuge difference to him. Let me expand a bit further - just help complete the picture for you (and I am sorry for those that know him - I dont want to tread on any toes). Bruce is doing this on 'bare bones'. He has literally no 'actual' support. The excellent and generous sponsors (Shimano, Stages, Garmin, Continental, Canyon, Assos, sorry I have forgotten some I am sure) have provided product for him to use, but there is no money here. Further more, he is lucky to have friends who allow him to stay at their houses - in many cases, he is couch surfing. He gets off his bike every day, after 11-13hrs, and has to maintain it himself. He feeds himself, he goes to the shops to buy food for tomorrow, then he gets up and starts again. So he has the tools to do the job. But really almost nothing else. No support. Noone following in a car, no mechanic, no chef, no wife, no-one with a spare set of bidons to grab as he pushes out 11hrs a day. The HAMR business is a real shame - but Bruce pretty much has no energy nor time to attend to it now that he is 'in' the attempt. Crowd-funding is something we (as a group of friends) have discussed. He does need some support. The technology and the cost have been a distraction that he cant afford. None of us have any experience in it to be honest. If anyone really can help - in some capacity - then I am happy to help coordinate this on behalf of Bruce - who (feel free to check my FB, or Bruces) is an old friend of mine. Please email me direct on anthony.shippard@gmail.com if you have any ideas or want to discuss further. Brucey - I know I didnt talk to you about this last night, but I also know you will be cool with it. Keep riding brother. Lets see how we can all help. 8 hours ago
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 19, 2016, 07:49:59 am
It is impressive that Bruce is making up for lack of daily support with athleticism (if his speed was such that he had to ride 18 hour days, he wouldn't succeed without support). All the other competitors have learned on the job, but this does look like poor planning/preparation that could have easily been avoided. If it really is an equipment problem I struggle to see how the cost and faff of using a spot tracker is the unsolvable problem. He's had a year to see how the others have dealt with the logistics of the challenge and the cost of a tracker is minor compared with a year of no income. And given his success with equipment sponsors of expensive bikes, power meter etc. It is a shame that it rests on such a minor detail.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on January 19, 2016, 08:04:52 am
Isn't the "minor" detail that he is riding >200 miles a day and doing all his own stuff?

Things that might seem minor to us may well not turn out that way

(but yes, shame it wasn't noticed/understood before the start)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 19, 2016, 08:13:35 am
Can't see the big deal with the UMCA myself.

It would be very impressive if he told them to "stick it" and went on to clean up completely.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 19, 2016, 08:36:37 am
It's rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

All records are artificial constructs, only existing within an agreed set of rules. Bruce, like Miles, Steve and Kurt, set out under a set of rules.

Miles had technical problems with recording.

Bruce looks to have not made the effort to comply.

He won't hold any sort of 'record', because a 'record' only exists by comparison to someone else doing the same thing. He's being a fool, especially since his riding so far indicates that he has the capability of riding further than Kurt in a 365 day period.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 19, 2016, 08:41:43 am
Can't see the big deal with the UMCA myself.

It would be very impressive if he told them to "stick it" and went on to clean up completely.

Absolutely. If Bruce rides further than Kurt or Tommy in 365 days I know who I will recognise as the record holder.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 19, 2016, 08:58:06 am
This challenge is surely hard enough without having to couch surf and do your own food shopping and maintenance, etc. Can he really keep that up for the whole year?

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Oakhambike on January 19, 2016, 09:04:50 am
No.
I had assumed (clearly wrongly) that Bruce's attempt was much more professional and thought out than Steve's and a more professional set up and more importantly much higher average speed with consequently much more recovery time was the recipe for success. But if he's spending his recovery time queuing in whatever the Aussie equivalent of Tesco's is and/or trying to find somewhere to crash then regardless of technicalities around trackers etc he won't get the record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 09:44:08 am
There's recovery time, rest and sleep.

Recovery is doing light exercise (such as gentle cycling, walking, shopping, etc).
Rest is being awake but doing nothing (sitting on the sofa watching TV, emails, uploading stuff to Strava, etc).
Obvious sleep is obvious.

Riding fast allows you to have enough of all 3 and time spent shopping won't be "wasted", it's part of active recovery and helps wind down from the physical part of the attempt whilst also providing some useful mental stimulation and keeping touch with reality.

The problem with riding slowly is that you lose out on time for some of these and so something is going to give at some point. If you don't get enough recovery then your legs are going to get heavier and heavier, we all know about sleep deprivation and if you don't get enough rest you'll be mentally frazzled soon enough.

Angst about where to sleep certainly won't help though.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 19, 2016, 09:46:44 am
His problem will come when (oh for a 100% reliable Garmin) his recording device fails him one day.
It doesn't look like he has much on his handlebars so no spare, but he could be running a phone app as backup.

Who does he turn to when he wants to claim that he actually did the unrecorded miles on Strava?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 10:00:43 am
Bruce looks to have not made the effort to comply.

I don't think that's true. I believe the story is that he'd provided a form of live tracking (via Strava Active Friends) but the UMCA obviously didn't consider this adequate/suitable (probably because it requires the person wanting to track him to be a Strava Premium member). His gripe will be that the UMCA rules weren't clear enough about what is required, so he thought he was satisfying the requirement.

Of course, this is speculation as there's nothing definitive from either Bruce (or his team) or the UMCA. Until there is we can continue tilting at windmills (on both sides). I only bring it up to counter your suggestion that he many not have made any effort to comply.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hippy on January 19, 2016, 10:10:12 am
Unrecorded means they didn't happen - maybe he should've got that SPOT tracker after all... Good reason to follow someone's set of rules for verification.

Even if he managed to 'break the record', unless it's done following UMCA or Guinness or some other body that goes some way to verifying his attempt, it will not be the record, it'll just be a long time spent on a bike to log a lot of strava rides aka a failed attempt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 10:14:10 am
SPOT tracker is £150 to buy (direct, £100 from an authorised dealer on eBay) and then £100 for the tracking plan for a year. Compared to his other expenses for the year it's not going to be big at all. The trackers have good resale value too, so some of the initial cost can be recouped.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hippy on January 19, 2016, 10:30:05 am
SPOT tracker is £150 to buy (direct, £100 from an authorised dealer on eBay) and then £100 for the tracking plan for a year. Compared to his other expenses for the year it's not going to be big at all. The trackers have good resale value too, so some of the initial cost can be recouped.

Yeah, he had the money to travel to Australia to ride when it's warm but not fit a couple of hundred quid SPOT tracker to comply? Really?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 11:19:12 am
It's pretty clear that Bruce's claims to have the Guinness month record are unsubstantiated. Janet Davison explained her motivation.

Quote
Speaking about why she took on this challenge Janet told wilmslow.co.uk "In December last year I learnt of Steve Abraham's attempt at breaking the record for the most miles cycled in a year. Of course I had to see what the women's record is. In 1938 Billie Fleming rode 29,603.7 miles, an average of 81 miles per day. After some real ale and wine I thought 'I could do that!'. However, after sober thoughts, I decided that committing to a whole year of cycling wasn't fair on my family, and it would require a huge amount of organisation. But what record could I attempt?

"That's when I found out that there is currently not a record for one month's duration. I spent the next few weeks pondering the challenge and finally in February I decided to send the email to Guinness World Records, telling them of my attempt."

http://www.wilmslow.co.uk/news/article/12160/wilmslow-cyclist-sets-new-guinness-world-record

She's a mathematician and physicist, with her own consultancy business. So data-logging shouldn't be too much trouble for her. Likewise Kurt sells management packages for car dealers.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 19, 2016, 11:49:30 am
Assuming Bruce ploughs on on his own, the obvious parallel is with Ken Webb, whose year (and 100,000km) records were de-listed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Webb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Webb)

Will Bruce go the same way?  We definitely have better means of proving to a certain standard (no proof can ever be absolute) that were available in the seventies, and people have better access to the info to form their own views rather than having to rely on an 'authority' such as Guinness, UMCA or whoever to tell us what to believe. 

Clearly the views on here are split.   It feels like about 70% think it would not be a valid ride and about 30% (including me) would recognise it (subject to it passing our own credibility tests.   No point trying to argue people to one side or the other - each are valid points of view.

Perhaps Bruce's link with BikeRadar will  be important.  If they throw their weight behind him, their reach will outrank UMCA for most audiences.  If they disown him, he's could be toast, beyond immediate friends and family.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 11:51:19 am
This board is under the Audax banner. Someone could ride PBP without a card, during the event. Log it with Strava, and claim to have won. That would be perfectly acceptable to the Stravanauts.
So let's have an Adventure Cycling board, and send Bruce there.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on January 19, 2016, 11:59:25 am
It's pretty clear that Bruce's claims to have the Guinness month record are unsubstantiated.

Maybe he's going for 'The Individual with the Most Unsubstantiated Records' record  :demon:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 19, 2016, 12:36:32 pm
Checking the Guinness site, there's no mention of Bruce Berkeley or his claim for farthest distance cycled - either in a week or a month. The month record is held by Janet Davison, set in August 2015 at 6455km. There is no standing week record.

It would seem that Bruce's 'records' have not been ratified by Guinness, and now the UCMA have refused to oversee his year attempt because he 'can't afford' a SPOT tracker (cost £150) - though he can afford to go to Australia to ride.

I suspect that Bruce isn't comfortable with authority and its attendant beauraucracy, and simply can't be arsed to jump through their hoops. It's a shame, as his efforts will go unrecognised.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 12:38:34 pm
It would seem that Bruce's 'records' have not been ratified by Guinness, and now the UCMA have refused to oversee his year attempt because he 'can't afford' a SPOT tracker (cost £150) - though he can afford to go to Australia to ride.

The danger with speculating is that it quickly gets quoted as fact.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 19, 2016, 12:41:56 pm
It would seem that Bruce's 'records' have not been ratified by Guinness, and now the UCMA have refused to oversee his year attempt because he 'can't afford' a SPOT tracker (cost £150) - though he can afford to go to Australia to ride.

The danger with speculating is that it quickly gets quoted as fact.

In which respect am I speculating? His claim to hold two Guinness records is unsubstantiated - and I've checked Guinness' site, and he's not there. His DQ from HAM'R is a matter of fact, and it's been stated on Strava by a friend that he couldn't afford the tracker device (and doesn't have time to bother with the paperwork anyway).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 19, 2016, 12:51:02 pm
I know from Alan Bate, who set the round the world record after Mark Beaumont, that it took a long time for Guinness to validate his attempt. No idea what the case is with Bruce's one. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 12:56:20 pm
It would seem that Bruce's 'records' have not been ratified by Guinness, and now the UCMA have refused to oversee his year attempt because he 'can't afford' a SPOT tracker (cost £150) - though he can afford to go to Australia to ride.

The danger with speculating is that it quickly gets quoted as fact.

In which respect am I speculating? His claim to hold two Guinness records is unsubstantiated - and I've checked Guinness' site, and he's not there. His DQ from HAM'R is a matter of fact, and it's been stated on Strava by a friend that he couldn't afford the tracker device (and doesn't have time to bother with the paperwork anyway).

The reason for his DQ from HAMR is not known.

Can you point me to the Strava comment? The only one I've seen is the vague one posted up-thread which has no specifics.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 19, 2016, 01:02:40 pm
It would seem that Bruce's 'records' have not been ratified by Guinness, and now the UCMA have refused to oversee his year attempt because he 'can't afford' a SPOT tracker (cost £150) - though he can afford to go to Australia to ride.

The danger with speculating is that it quickly gets quoted as fact.

In which respect am I speculating? His claim to hold two Guinness records is unsubstantiated - and I've checked Guinness' site, and he's not there. His DQ from HAM'R is a matter of fact, and it's been stated on Strava by a friend that he couldn't afford the tracker device (and doesn't have time to bother with the paperwork anyway).

The reason for his DQ from HAMR is not known.

Can you point me to the Strava comment? The only one I've seen is the vague one posted up-thread which has no specifics.
Quote
Dear all - I know that Bruce doesnt have enough time to read all the posts, but also that he does really value everyones input. It make s ahuge difference to him. Let me expand a bit further - just help complete the picture for you (and I am sorry for those that know him - I dont want to tread on any toes). Bruce is doing this on 'bare bones'. He has literally no 'actual' support. The excellent and generous sponsors (Shimano, Stages, Garmin, Continental, Canyon, Assos, sorry I have forgotten some I am sure) have provided product for him to use, but there is no money here. Further more, he is lucky to have friends who allow him to stay at their houses - in many cases, he is couch surfing. He gets off his bike every day, after 11-13hrs, and has to maintain it himself. He feeds himself, he goes to the shops to buy food for tomorrow, then he gets up and starts again. So he has the tools to do the job. But really almost nothing else. No support. Noone following in a car, no mechanic, no chef, no wife, no-one with a spare set of bidons to grab as he pushes out 11hrs a day. The HAMR business is a real shame - but Bruce pretty much has no energy nor time to attend to it now that he is 'in' the attempt. Crowd-funding is something we (as a group of friends) have discussed. He does need some support. The technology and the cost have been a distraction that he cant afford. None of us have any experience in it to be honest. If anyone really can help - in some capacity - then I am happy to help coordinate this on behalf of Bruce - who (feel free to check my FB, or Bruces) is an old friend of mine. Please email me direct on anthony.shippard@gmail.com if you have any ideas or want to discuss further. Brucey - I know I didnt talk to you about this last night, but I also know you will be cool with it. Keep riding brother. Lets see how we can all help


my emphasis
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on January 19, 2016, 01:06:53 pm
The normal reading for that would be that he can't afford the distraction,rather than the device  but it isn't conclusive.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 01:10:29 pm
Yes, that's the vague non-specific one I was referring to.

I guess I have a different standard of 'proof' than some others.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 19, 2016, 01:13:44 pm
The fact that the cost is mentioned along with the comments that he's doing the attempt on a 'bare bones' basis and that 'there is no money here' and that crowd funding has been discussed leads me to believe that Bruce has decided he can't afford the Spot tracker, and had hoped that Strava tracking would be sufficient. I don't think it's an unreasonable inference.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 19, 2016, 01:15:13 pm
How hum. I don't have a great deal of sympathy. He announced some time ago that he was going to make the attempt. There was plenty of time to sort all the shit out before he started.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: michaelo on January 19, 2016, 01:20:18 pm
I remember the monthly record attempt last year.  Looking at the various articles, it does specifically refer to a Guinness Record (as well as the weekly record also being a Guinness one).

http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 01:23:54 pm
The fact that the cost is mentioned along with the comments that he's doing the attempt on a 'bare bones' basis and that 'there is no money here' and that crowd funding has been discussed leads me to believe that Bruce has decided he can't afford the Spot tracker, and had hoped that Strava tracking would be sufficient. I don't think it's an unreasonable inference.

Sure, I don't think it's an unreasonable inference, but it's still an inference.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 01:25:05 pm
I remember the monthly record attempt last year.  Looking at the various articles, it does specifically refer to a Guinness Record (as well as the weekly record also being a Guinness one).

http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record

Articles about the actual month record holder emphasise the proof.
Quote
Having satisfied the criteria set, using GPS tracking, video evidence and log book signing, Janet must now submit a lot of evidence to Guinness World Records, which they must verify before the record is official.

Sending out a press release that you've done the distance is not the same as satisfying the criteria for the record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 19, 2016, 01:29:22 pm
The fact that the cost is mentioned along with the comments that he's doing the attempt on a 'bare bones' basis and that 'there is no money here' and that crowd funding has been discussed leads me to believe that Bruce has decided he can't afford the Spot tracker, and had hoped that Strava tracking would be sufficient. I don't think it's an unreasonable inference.

Sure, I don't think it's an unreasonable inference, but it's still an inference.

This isn't a court of law, and no-one's died. We are not looking for forensic standards of 'proof'. It is stated in the public domain that Bruce is unfunded and has little or no help. I believe that to infer from his friend's statement that he can't afford a Spot tracker (nor the time to set it up) is reasonable in the context of trying to determine what has gone wrong between Bruce and the UCMA. If you regard that as unfounded speculation, I'm sorry. What would you suggest we do?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 19, 2016, 01:31:06 pm
I've now read Chris Hopkinson's posts on Bruce's facebook page.

Disgracefully unprofessional, rude and childish. Incredibly so.

His connection with UMCA discredits the organisation.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: JohnR on January 19, 2016, 01:32:51 pm
Sorry to but in, but what involvement has bike radar with Bruce?

Are they going to print reports on his progress for possible money?

Couldn't they publish a crowd funding effort for Bruce?

Just thinking.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 19, 2016, 01:47:04 pm
I've now read Chris Hopkinson's posts on Bruce's facebook page.

Disgracefully unprofessional, rude and childish. Incredibly so.

His connection with UMCA discredits the organisation.

What about his connection with Steve!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hippy on January 19, 2016, 01:47:13 pm
I'd be pretty miffed if I was a Guinness record holder and someone came along claiming the same record without having done any of the groundwork to have it verified.
Did road.cc write an article on the current Monthly record holder? I wonder what the current status is of Bruce's Guinness Record? Claiming it without it actually being verified is a bit rich.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 01:51:44 pm
The fact that the cost is mentioned along with the comments that he's doing the attempt on a 'bare bones' basis and that 'there is no money here' and that crowd funding has been discussed leads me to believe that Bruce has decided he can't afford the Spot tracker, and had hoped that Strava tracking would be sufficient. I don't think it's an unreasonable inference.

Sure, I don't think it's an unreasonable inference, but it's still an inference.

This isn't a court of law, and no-one's died. We are not looking for forensic standards of 'proof'. It is stated in the public domain that Bruce is unfunded and has little or no help. I believe that to infer from his friend's statement that he can't afford a Spot tracker (nor the time to set it up) is reasonable in the context of trying to determine what has gone wrong between Bruce and the UCMA. If you regard that as unfounded speculation, I'm sorry. What would you suggest we do?

You could put "I think" or "In my opinion" before the sentence so that someone doesn't read it and think it's fact and go off and quote it elsewhere. It's quite simple.

If a SPOT tracker was required then the rules should state that, rather than "Live Tracking" device that needs to be approved by the UMCA Records Chairman. I think it came down to Bruce trying to argue that Strava Active Friends satisfied the "live tracking" requirement, and the UMCA saying they wouldn't approve that. Neither was willing to budge and so the UMCA had no choice but to do what it did. But, again, this is just my guesswork.

I'm sure you'll agree that this is another way the facts/statements could be read, in which case it's not quite the case of him being DQ'd because he couldn't afford a SPOT tracker.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 19, 2016, 01:58:11 pm
another 7 day record claim
No mention of Guinness there either, is it the modern way that if you get a road website to publish it, that's good enough  ???

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/yorkshireman-richard-nutt-breaks-world-seven-day-distance-record-175854
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 01:59:48 pm
The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 19, 2016, 02:01:37 pm
Sorry to but in, but what involvement has bike radar with Bruce?

Are they going to print reports on his progress for possible money?

Couldn't they publish a crowd funding effort for Bruce?

Just thinking.

i had a feeling he was doing a blog for them, but I can't find any reference to that.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 02:04:49 pm
I'd be pretty miffed if I was a Guinness record holder and someone came along claiming the same record without having done any of the groundwork to have it verified.
Did road.cc write an article on the current Monthly record holder? I wonder what the current status is of Bruce's Guinness Record? Claiming it without it actually being verified is a bit rich.

I wonder what Janet Davison could do in the 24? She looks to have the right build.

(http://www.wilmslow.co.uk/img/w/720/h/480/s/c56abd3c83d50270488ea84e10e004e0.jpg)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 02:05:48 pm
Sorry to but in, but what involvement has bike radar with Bruce?

Are they going to print reports on his progress for possible money?

Couldn't they publish a crowd funding effort for Bruce?

Just thinking.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/bruce-berkeley-cycle-doctor-year-record-attempt-45898/

Quote
Bruce will be blogging exclusively for BikeRadar throughout his record attempt, so stay tuned for more.

Can't find any of his blogs on the site though.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 19, 2016, 02:17:13 pm
The fact that the cost is mentioned along with the comments that he's doing the attempt on a 'bare bones' basis and that 'there is no money here' and that crowd funding has been discussed leads me to believe that Bruce has decided he can't afford the Spot tracker, and had hoped that Strava tracking would be sufficient. I don't think it's an unreasonable inference.

Sure, I don't think it's an unreasonable inference, but it's still an inference.

This isn't a court of law, and no-one's died. We are not looking for forensic standards of 'proof'. It is stated in the public domain that Bruce is unfunded and has little or no help. I believe that to infer from his friend's statement that he can't afford a Spot tracker (nor the time to set it up) is reasonable in the context of trying to determine what has gone wrong between Bruce and the UCMA. If you regard that as unfounded speculation, I'm sorry. What would you suggest we do?

You could put "I think" or "In my opinion" before the sentence so that someone doesn't read it and think it's fact and go off and quote it elsewhere. It's quite simple.

If a SPOT tracker was required then the rules should state that, rather than "Live Tracking" device that needs to be approved by the UMCA Records Chairman. I think it came down to Bruce trying to argue that Strava Active Friends satisfied the "live tracking" requirement, and the UMCA saying they wouldn't approve that. Neither was willing to budge and so the UMCA had no choice but to do what it did. But, again, this is just my guesswork.

I'm sure you'll agree that this is another way the facts/statements have could be read, in which case it's not quite the case of him being DQ'd because he couldn't afford a SPOT tracker.

I'm sorry, but I'm not submitting my posts for prior approval by you or anyone else. You are free to take issue with anything I say, as is anyone else, and I can argue my position - as I have done. If I want help wording my posts, I'll be in touch.

Now, HAM'R Rule 7 also states that the approved tracking and recording devices should be tested two weeks in advance of the start to ensure that the Records Chairman can access the data. So this should have been sorted by 17 December last year. I stand by what I opined about Bruce's attitude to authority - and the mysterious 'Guinness world records' he's supposed to hold.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on January 19, 2016, 02:49:08 pm

You could put "I think" or "In my opinion" before the sentence so that someone doesn't read it and think it's fact and go off and quote it elsewhere. It's quite simple.


Yeah, that's bound to work  ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hippy on January 19, 2016, 04:11:22 pm
I'd be pretty miffed if I was a Guinness record holder and someone came along claiming the same record without having done any of the groundwork to have it verified.
Did road.cc write an article on the current Monthly record holder? I wonder what the current status is of Bruce's Guinness Record? Claiming it without it actually being verified is a bit rich.

I wonder what Janet Davison could do in the 24? She looks to have the right build.

(http://www.wilmslow.co.uk/img/w/720/h/480/s/c56abd3c83d50270488ea84e10e004e0.jpg)

Are you calling me fat?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 04:17:39 pm
She's in the Michael Broadwith mould. He's a mathematician as well, a teacher I think.

(http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/14/michael-broadwith-aug15/Michael-Broadwith-7-615x684.jpg)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hippy on January 19, 2016, 04:23:27 pm
Yep, but you don't need to be a stick to win it :)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 19, 2016, 04:57:31 pm
I've now read Chris Hopkinson's posts on Bruce's facebook page.

Disgracefully unprofessional, rude and childish. Incredibly so.

His connection with UMCA discredits the organisation.

Amazing that anyone could be bothered to read it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aidan on January 19, 2016, 05:04:33 pm
I've now read Chris Hopkinson's posts on Bruce's facebook page.

Disgracefully unprofessional, rude and childish. Incredibly so.

His connection with UMCA discredits the organisation.

Really?  Dont you know who he is? ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aidan on January 19, 2016, 05:08:56 pm
I'd be pretty miffed if I was a Guinness record holder and someone came along claiming the same record without having done any of the groundwork to have it verified.
Did road.cc write an article on the current Monthly record holder? I wonder what the current status is of Bruce's Guinness Record? Claiming it without it actually being verified is a bit rich.


This applies to the year long attempt too.   Bruce seems to not have had a spot tracker and wont have his attempt verified by the UMCA, If he does more without verification and claims the record Kurt or Steve will be justifieably pissed off having spent time effort and money adhering properly to the rules. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 05:16:40 pm
I've now read Chris Hopkinson's posts on Bruce's facebook page.

Got a link? I can't see any on Bruce's page except for one from him saying "Looking good" on the 7th Jan.

Maybe it's because I'm not a FB friend of either of them...or did you mean the posts about Bruce on Hoppo's own FB page?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aidan on January 19, 2016, 05:23:41 pm
I've now read Chris Hopkinson's posts on Bruce's facebook page.

Got a link? I can't see any on Bruce's page except for one from him saying "Looking good" on the 7th Jan.

Maybe it's because I'm not a FB friend of either of them...or did you mean the posts about Bruce on Hoppo's own FB page?

I think its the same posts, They were made on Hoppos page but linked Bruce so appear on his page too. First post was 17th Jan at 19:49
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 05:31:54 pm
Ah, right. I don't see them on Bruce's page but then there are a million FB related reasons why that could be.

As for the posts; some people just like to be the ones to break the news first.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: teamcinzano on January 19, 2016, 06:59:50 pm
Quote
The excellent and generous sponsors (Shimano, Stages, Garmin, Continental, Canyon, Assos, sorry I have forgotten some I am sure) have provided product for him to use, but there is no money here.

Personally, I think that an unwillingness to conform to the rules of the only group out there willing to certify the record shows serious disrespect to this list of sponsors. Cyclists show disrespect to their sponsors here in the US all the time-- category racers wanting free or greatly reduced prices from companies to race with, as if their Cat 4 abilities should be supported by others. In this case, if all those companies gave him kit under the presumption that he would be doing the HAMR, then to make a cock-up of it in the first two weeks over something completely under his own control is childish and unprofessional. Who cares if you think the UMCA is stooopid for having their requirements? If companies gave you thousands of dollars worth of gear because you represented yourself as going for a record, then you conform to the rules even if they're below you. I'd ask for the kit back.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Oakhambike on January 19, 2016, 07:11:12 pm
ABSOLUTELY agree - give me a really expensive bike and I'll do x - oh I've managed to get disqualified just out of the start.....

Personally, I think that an unwillingness to conform to the rules of the only group out there willing to certify the record shows serious disrespect to this list of sponsors. Cyclists show disrespect to their sponsors here in the US all the time-- category racers wanting free or greatly reduced prices from companies to race with, as if their Cat 4 abilities should be supported by others. In this case, if all those companies gave him kit under the presumption that he would be doing the HAMR, then to make a cock-up of it in the first two weeks over something completely under his own control is childish and unprofessional. Who cares if you think the UMCA is stooopid for having their requirements? If companies gave you thousands of dollars worth of gear because you represented yourself as going for a record, then you conform to the rules even if they're below you. I'd ask for the kit back.
[/quote]
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 19, 2016, 09:33:04 pm
Ah, right. I don't see them on Bruce's page but then there are a million FB related reasons why that could be.

As for the posts; some people just like to be the ones to break the news first.
It wasn't just his breaking the news, it was his response to people.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on January 19, 2016, 09:50:49 pm
ABSOLUTELY agree - give me a really expensive bike and I'll do x - oh I've managed to get disqualified just out of the start.....

Personally, I think that an unwillingness to conform to the rules of the only group out there willing to certify the record shows serious disrespect to this list of sponsors. Cyclists show disrespect to their sponsors here in the US all the time-- category racers wanting free or greatly reduced prices from companies to race with, as if their Cat 4 abilities should be supported by others. In this case, if all those companies gave him kit under the presumption that he would be doing the HAMR, then to make a cock-up of it in the first two weeks over something completely under his own control is childish and unprofessional. Who cares if you think the UMCA is stooopid for having their requirements? If companies gave you thousands of dollars worth of gear because you represented yourself as going for a record, then you conform to the rules even if they're below you. I'd ask for the kit back.

My bold

I think it also shows disrespect to those who worked to re-insitute and  re-ignite interest in this massive endeavour and those who have legitimately undertaken it.

Not interested in this challenger anymore, which is a shame
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on January 19, 2016, 09:51:23 pm
Ah, right. I don't see them on Bruce's page but then there are a million FB related reasons why that could be.

As for the posts; some people just like to be the ones to break the news first.
It wasn't just his breaking the news, it was his response to people.

Indeed, he did come across as a bit of a classless knob. I'd expect better from a crew chief TBH.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 19, 2016, 10:22:50 pm
Quote
I'd expect better from a crew chief TBH.

Quote
He served on the UMCA Board of Directors for seven and a half years, then continued service to UMCA as the Northern European Liaison and continues to perform that service to the present day.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 19, 2016, 10:58:04 pm
Re Hoppo: I would have thought that being a UMCA official and Steve's Crew Chief would be a conflict of interest?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 11:06:11 pm
Re Hoppo: I would have thought that being a UMCA official and Steve's Crew Chief would be a conflict of interest?

Were they associated before last year? I'm pretty sure the only time Hoppo rides is actually in competition; he proudly states that all his training is on the turbo (a position with which I can sympathise in this weather!), and I'm not aware of him ever having anything to do with Audax. I know it's a tangent, but how did he come to be associated with Steve's HAM'R attempt?

ISTR from last year that he was appointed by UMCA so that he could be their man on the ground, at quite a late stage in the process, possibly after Steve had started riding.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 19, 2016, 11:15:34 pm
Ah yes, I remember you saying that now. So how can he be both the UMCA Official (which I read as Observer, from the rules) and at the same time be the Crew Chief? As I say, this to me seems like a conflict of interest, and I'm surprised the UMCA allows it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 11:20:43 pm
It wasn't me that said it, but anyway.

UMCA is run by volunteers, Hoppo is just the "Northern European Liaison" (whatever that is), and presumably he has no input on the validation/ratification of the record so no conflict of interest.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 19, 2016, 11:29:40 pm
Ah yes, I remember you saying that now. So how can he be both the UMCA Official (which I read as Observer, from the rules) and at the same time be the Crew Chief? As I say, this to me seems like a conflict of interest, and I'm surprised the UMCA allows it.
He claims to be on the board of directors as well.

Quote
Chris Hopkinson If you didn't know Craig McGregor, Shusanah Pillinger and myself are also on the Board of Directors of the UMCA! And i was also involved in getting the HAM'R started in the first place!!!!
I'm sure you will already know that though, as i'm sure you will have done your homework??!!!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 11:50:55 pm
Hmm, not according to the UMCA themselves, but then it may have changed since this was published.

https://ultracycling.com/sections/awards/ucd/hoppo/

Quote
Even with his full schedule, Hoppo made time to serve ultracycling for many years. He served on the UMCA Board of Directors for seven and a half years, then continued service to UMCA as the Northern European Liaison and continues to perform that service to the present day. Congratulations to Chris Hopkinson, the newest recipient of the Ultra Cyclist of Distinction!

That page says "Updated March 2015" so he may have been on the board whilst HAMR was being set up (which must have happened prior to Jan 1st 2015) but left the board at a point after that.

Elsewhere the website lists him as a non-voting director: https://ultracycling.com/sections/contact/ so nothing is really clear. Does becoming a non-voting directory mean "leaving the board"?. No idea if that page is up to date as neither Craig nor Shusanah are listed as board members. (I recognise one other UK Audaxer's name on that contact page, interesting, didn't know that.)

Regardless, the UMCA themselves are quite aware of his positions (especially if they were involved in his appointment as Steve's Crew Chief) and don't seem to have a problem with it. If you're really concerned you could drop the Records Chairman or the Executive Director an email and see what they think.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 20, 2016, 12:07:35 am
Not interested in Bruce anymore. If he couldn't be bothered to adhere to the rules before he started what's the point? Surely a proportion of any record attempt is in the preparation before you even start? It's just a long bike ride and not a record attempt as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 12:28:50 am
I'm still interested. He's still trying to cycle a very long way in a year, which I find mind boggling. The fact he's doing it with a likelihood of no official record makes it even more audacious.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 20, 2016, 12:40:10 am
I agree. I don't know what is involved in "Strava friends", or whatever the expression was, being used to ratify his distances, but if he is going out on his own, riding 220-ish miles and fixing his own bikes and preparing his own meals, as well as jetting around the world to keep up with the better weather, that's a tremendous achievement. He will have a record of his ride, quite simply because he is recording it, so that, in the literal sense, will be his "record", if his efforts continue to be as successful for the remaining 346 days. He is bound to hit snags though, and I find it hard to believe that he has the bloody-minded attitude that has kept Steve on the road against what most people perceive as being overwhelming odds. He's obviously a terrific cyclist though.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 12:53:24 am
Hmm, not according to the UMCA themselves, but then it may have changed since this was published.

https://ultracycling.com/sections/awards/ucd/hoppo/

Quote
Even with his full schedule, Hoppo made time to serve ultracycling for many years. He served on the UMCA Board of Directors for seven and a half years, then continued service to UMCA as the Northern European Liaison and continues to perform that service to the present day. Congratulations to Chris Hopkinson, the newest recipient of the Ultra Cyclist of Distinction!

That page says "Updated March 2015" so he may have been on the board whilst HAMR was being set up (which must have happened prior to Jan 1st 2015) but left the board at a point after that.

Elsewhere the website lists him as a non-voting director: https://ultracycling.com/sections/contact/ so nothing is really clear. Does becoming a non-voting directory mean "leaving the board"?. No idea if that page is up to date as neither Craig nor Shusanah are listed as board members. (I recognise one other UK Audaxer's name on that contact page, interesting, didn't know that.)

Regardless, the UMCA themselves are quite aware of his positions (especially if they were involved in his appointment as Steve's Crew Chief) and don't seem to have a problem with it. If you're really concerned you could drop the Records Chairman or the Executive Director an email and see what they think.

Interesting stuff. 'Concerned' would be way overstating it; I'm pretty sure I haven't fully understood Hoppo's role in either the UMCA or as Steve's Crew Chief, and how the two overlap (if indeed they do). It was just my first impression that I thought he'd been appointed by the UMCA to observe Steve's attempt and - separately - had been made a part of Steve's team. Pretty obviously, the two roles could conflict - but I guessed it was my inadequate understanding, and not some funny stuff going on!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jacamo on January 20, 2016, 03:31:22 am
A full report on the Disqualification of Bruce Berkeley from the UMCA HAMR attempt started on January 1, 2016

We have been asked by many for the full reasoning behind our disqualification of Bruce Berkely's record attempt. Our records chair has prepared the following complete accounting. Please note that by using the Spot Tracker and GPS with Heart Rate Monitor we have been able to identify errors in reporting and get them corrected. The accounting of mileage for such an endeavor is no small task. It is our records chair's job to make sure he gets what he needs. What follows is the full report, including emails between Bruce and Drew and other members of the UMCA Board of Directors. Email addresses are redacted:

1. Dec 30: Bruce Berkeley was notified that he needed to get Spot tracker; reasons in the following email. Bruce had previously selected a live tracker that was inadequate. Anyone who wanted to track him had to first submit a request and wait for it to be approved before tracking was enabled. Given that Bruce (or any HAM’R rider) might not be able to approve such a request for several days make this entirely unacceptable. Rules do give this authority to the Records Chairman.
From the Rules for Record Attempts:
Riders will be required to have an active live tracking device in operation for all mileage to be credited for the attempt. In addition, riders will have a trip recording device (such as a Garmin) that will record the route taken, speed, elevation/gradient and at least one of heart rate or power. Riders will be responsible for carrying backup batteries to power whatever device/app we decide upon. The devices used will be subject to the approval of the Records Chairman.

Dear Bruce,

You definitely need to get the Spot tracker for the following reasons.
1. Spot will allow open access. Any neutral observer can go to the Spot website and track your rides, as opposed to the Find My Friends app which requires a friend request to be approved. Spot will serve the fan base of ultracycling as well as serve you better; once your attempt begins, you do not need to spend any time approving friend requests for the live tracker, nor should the ultracycling fan base need to wait for approval. Even as simple as the process may be, we do not want to deter observers in the least.

2. Spot leaves a trail. I do not know if Find My Friends does or not; I think not. What I mean is this: I can go to Spot for days AFTER one of your rides and see where you were at any selected time. On occasion during the past year, I was able to use this feature to reconstruct a ride for which Strava/Garmin had a glitch.

3. Use of Find My Friends virtually guarantees your will lose miles when Strava has a glitch (because it is a near certainty that Strava will have one or more glitches during your year of riding).

As soon as you sign up for Spot, please see me a link to one of your rides. Thanks.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

2. Jan 2: Bruce is notified that he has not become member of UMCA, as is required by the rules. At this point, I was willing to treat this as a misunderstanding (no penalty or warning) but only if prompt corrective action were taken.
On 2 Jan 2016, at 13:58, Drew Clark wrote:

Dear Bruce,

It has been brought to my attention that you have not yet enrolled as a member of UMCA. You must do so immediately.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

3. Jan 2: Bruce promises prompt action.
On Jan 2, 2016, at 2:43 AM, Bruce Berkeley wrote:

Drew

Was this not included? This is the first I have know about this! I'm 2 days in and pretty tired tonight, so probably won't get it sorted this evening.

I will sort as soon as I get a chance.

Been getting some serious interest on Strava, nearly 1000 likes on yesterday's ride! Massive

Bruce

4. Jan 2: Drew Clark affirms membership requirement.
January 2, 2016
Dear Bruce,

The rules clearly require UMCA membership for a record attempt.
An application for a record attempt is entirely separate from membership.
You do need to do this immediately. It takes about 5 minutes.
If not, adherents to Steven Abraham and Kurt Searvogel may well challenge your mileage.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

5. Jan 4: Drew Clark again affirms membership requirement.
January 4, 2015
Dear Bruce,

I have not heard back from you yet regarding membership in UMCA.

I understand that you thought membership was part of the application fee; it is not.
I am willing to allow for the misunderstanding, but only up to the point where you were notified of the problem.

I wrote on January 2:
The rules clearly require UMCA membership for a record attempt.
An application for a record attempt is entirely separate from membership.
You do need to do this immediately. It takes about 5 minutes.
If not, adherents to Steven Abraham and Kurt Searvogel may well challenge your mileage.

Paul Carpenter (who is copied on this email) handles membership and can help you with any issue on that front and he will notify me as soon as you join.

UMCA will not post any official data for your attempt until this is accomplished.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

6. Jan 4: Paul Carpenter, President of UMCA, offers to help Bruce complete his membership process. This email was also sent to Bruce.
January 4, 2016

Please let me know if I can help Bruce. Basic membership is $35 and can be paid through the on line store.

http://ultracycling.com/store/index.php…

Paul.

7. Jan 5: Paul Carpenter, President of UMCA, again offers to help Bruce complete his membership process. This email was also sent to Bruce.
January 5, 2016
Paul Carpenter again offered help to Bruce
Hi Bruce,

If you use the link I included in the email you can use PayPal to pay when you checkout of the store.

Paul.

8. Jan 5: Bruce replied, promising to complete the membership process “in the morning."
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:06 AM, Bruce Berkeley wrote:
Hi Drew/Paul

I will sort the payment for the membership in the morning. Can I pay it with PayPal? Just a quick one though Drew, this was an error at your end not informing me that I had to pay the membership fee as well, so I was under the impression it was all sorted! So apologies for this, but would appreciate if you could work with me here! I have started the attempt and I do not have a lot of time at the end of the day.

Thanks and I'll send the payment in the morning

Bruce

9. Jan 5: Drew Clark replied on the same day. Please note that Bruce was strongly urged (again) to enlist crew to help prevent exactly the kind of situation that ultimately resulted. Bruce declined to utilize ANY crew.(Note: Because HAM’R riders are not required to use a follow vehicle, no crew was required in the past. This will be rectified by a new HAM’R rule that will require a HAM’R rider to have at least one crew designated to handle communication in the future.)
January 5, 2016
Dear Bruce,

Great! I look forward to getting you fully into HAM’R.

Please be aware that you still also need to sign up for Spot tracker, per my previous email, pasted here for reference:
You definitely need to get the Spot tracker for the following reasons.
1. Spot will allow open access. Any neutral observer can go to the Spot website and track your rides, as opposed to the Find My Friends app which requires a friend request to be approved. Spot will serve the fan base of ultracycling better as well as serve you better; once your attempt begins, you do not need to spend any time approving friend requests for the live tracker, nor should the ultracycling fan base need to wait for approval. Even as simple as the process may be, we do not want to deter observers in the least.

2. Spot leaves trail. I do not know if Find My Friends does or not; I think not. What I mean is this: I can go to Spot for days AFTER one of your rides and see where you were at any selected time. On occasion during the past year, I was able to use this feature to reconstruct a ride for which Strava/Garmin had a glitch.

3. Use of Find My Friends virtually guarantees your will lose miles when Strava has a glitch (because it is a near certainty that Strava will have one or more glitches during your year of riding).

As soon as you sign up for Spot, please send me a link to one of your rides. Thanks.

You wrote: "but would appreciate if you could work with me here!"
I will be delighted to work with you. Per the rules, the Records Chairman (me) is your official-of-record for your HAM’R attempt. I will spend many hours this year compiling documentation for your attempt. I will even spend more out-of-pocket to create and preserve this documentation than your membership will cost. I am not paid for my work for UMCA; this is purely voluntary. As your official, I am rooting for you to succeed. But a big part of the role of the official is to build a "defensible wall” around your attempt so that your efforts can survive a challenge. I have already received queries about your live tracker (or absence thereof).

If anyone files an actual complaint or challenge, your attempt may be subject to penalties as prescribed in the rules, which could range from warning to a loss or miles.

So, please complete the membership application ASAP and also the Spot tracker.

I will again urge you to enlist crew persons to assist you. I know you prefer to go it alone, but this approach will likely cost you time and maybe miles. Crew persons can perform many time-saving tasks for you such as: answering communications, fetching bicycle parts in case of unexpected breakdowns, and many other tasks. I know Steven Abraham and Kurt Searvogel did effectively use support crew for many such things. Enlisting crew will not be required of you, but it it s certainly recommended.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

10. Jan 9: Drew Clark notified Paul Carpenter and Doug Hoffman of noncompliance by Bruce, though both were previously aware of the situation.
January 9, 2016
Dear Paul and Doug,

We have a problem with Bruce Berkely. After promising on Jan 5 to make membership payment on Jan 6, I have received no confirmation of his having done so.
Have either of you seen anything from him?

Nor is he complaint with his live tracker.

But he is riding and has thousands of followers.

I have to issue a warning, a penalty, or a DQ. I have some latitude, but in my opinion, he has gone past a mere warning already.
I am thinking along these lines: a) A penalty of loss of miles, or b) no miles count until he is compliant (essentially a restart on new date), or c) DQ

Any thoughts before I do so?

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

11. Jan 10: Official warning issued to Bruce.
January 10, 2016
Dear Bruce,

The purpose is twofold:
1. We do encourage you to continue your effort and want to work with you.

2. This is an official warning that you’re out of compliance with UMCA rules for a HAM’R attempt, specifically a) No UMCA membership and b ) No Spot tracker
This is serious enough that if you need to take time off from riding, you should do so.

If you need help to attain either of these, please let us know immediately. Paul can help with membership. I can re-send info for the Spot tracker.

More severe consequences will follow very rapidly. These include loss of miles or a restart or DQ.

Notes: You were first notified on Jan 2 about the membership issue. Your response was: "I will sort as soon as I get a chance.”
You were reminded again on January 5. You promised: "Thanks and I'll send the payment in the morning.”

It is now January 10, and no action has been taken.
Please respond immediately with action.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

12. Jan 16: After six more days of no action by Bruce and no communication from Bruce, he is disqualified.
January 16, 2016
Dear Bruce,

This is official notice that your HAM’R attempt is officially over.
You are not in compliance with UMCA rules for your HAM’R attempt.
Despite repeated chances and repeated warnings, you were not in compliance when you started and never accepted our offer to become compliant.

Best wishes if you continue riding, but none of your mileage will be certified by UMCA.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

13. Jan 17: Bruce finally replies, with two emails in succession
January 17, 2016
Hi Drew

Thanks for the email, pretty shocked with the content. To give me an official warning seems pretty over the top. Surely that should relate to some form of bending the rules, this is not something I have done.

1. I am sorry I have been riding every day as you can no doubt see, and forgot to make the payment.
2. I looked into the spot tracking and simply do not have the funds to spend more money on this option. I sent you a option that does provide live tracking and it would do the job required. It does not say on your website that I have to use a specific brand of live tracking, simply that I must have live tracking. I think I have not breached any rules here either.

As a result of the email and the issues we are having I have left the group and I no longer want you to officiate on my record attempt, as a result of this can you please refund my payment, less an Admin fee, as I will now use Guinness to verify my attempt.

I can do without the extra agro that I am getting at the end of very long and hard days in the saddle. I would have thought you guys would understand this better than anyone as you officiate on these distance records. I expected to work with you guys, not be treated like I am doing something wrong.

Please advise me when the refund has been processed.

Bruce

Drew

I hope you got my last email! This is not on!! You have tarnished my reputation and not done anything to help me out here! I now hear I have been disqualified!? I do not want your organisation involved in my record attempt! You are overly officious and did nothing to understand or help me out!

I expect a full refund and have raised a claim with PayPal regards the fee!

I am annoyed that I ever got you involved with this challenge!

Please advise about the refund

Bruce

14. Jan 17: Bruce files a “buyer complaint” with Paypal. It is interesting that he did not have time to pay for his membership, but did have time to file a buyer complaint.
January 17, 2016
From Mark Newsome:
FYI -- Seems that Bruce (David?) Berkeley is seeking a refund of his record attempt fees. (The site receives notifications of PayPal activity.) Looks like he's filed a "buyer complaint" (see text below).

Whomever manages our PayPal account should see the message from PayPal...

--Mark

15. Jan 17: Decision regarding a refund to Bruce
From the Rules of Record Attempts:
"Fees are non-refundable, non-transferable, and cannot be applied toward other future record attempts. In other words, once you submit your fee, you are indicating your intention to make the attempt."

As Records Chairman, my job is to uphold the rules. The Rules state that the application fee is not refundable, so I cannot authorize that. But the Board does have authority to freely male whatever decision they wish regarding a refund.

Drew Clark, UMCA Records

16. Jan19, 2016: UMCA Board approves a full refund (no admin fee taken) to Bruce Berkeley even though the rules clearly state that the application fee is non-refundable, as a gesture of good will towards Bruce. The UMCA Board wishes Bruce Berkeley well in his attempt, but UMCA will not certify the attempt and will not verify mileage for the attempt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 20, 2016, 03:55:58 am
Thanks for the full disclosure. It seems quite clear which party has been trying to resolve rule compliance discrepancies and which has not.

Unfortunately this won't stop some folk from taking a contrary view but it won't be backed by logic or common sense.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 20, 2016, 06:24:19 am
Oh dear. Bruce has hardly covered himself in glory there. Drew and UMCA have been remarkably patient and accommodating.

I assume it is just bravado when Bruce claims he will get Guinness to officiate because if so, he'd have to restart and change his tactics (no peloton riding and possibly no trip to the UK).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on January 20, 2016, 06:53:07 am
The only thing I could think in Bruce's defence would be tiredness and irritability on his part after a long day in the saddle. Apart from that he's been a bit of a plonker sadly. It certainly shows a potential HAMR challenger needs at least *some* support at hand during the attempt.

Glad UMCA did the noble thing and refunded his fee in full, that's classy.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 07:30:00 am
So, it would seem our interpretation was correct. I note he intends to get Guinness to ratify his efforts; apart from the fact that they've refused to do so in the past because the Year record is 'too dangerous', there's no evidence that his past claimed 'Guinness records' were ever ratified.

This effort is now a complete waste of his time.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 20, 2016, 07:38:32 am
Not really, he can still ride further than anyone else.

So what if he doesn't tick the imaginary record box, it's all made up after all.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 20, 2016, 07:42:56 am
Ken Webb claimed to have ridden further than anybody else and proved to his own satisfaction that he did so. Independent evidence suggested he didn't.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 20, 2016, 07:46:01 am
I guess we'll see what's what at the end of the day.

If he puts it on Strava, there's enough anoraks out there to verify it for him, or not.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 07:50:23 am
The problem is it'll never have official ratification, so will never appear in any record books. Like his claimed 'Guinness' records - there is no record for a week's riding, and the month record is held by Janet Davison, not Bruce Berkeley, despite his claim to have ridden 3500km more than her (but still less than Kurt or Steve). The best he'll get is a footnote. What's the point?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: PAC on January 20, 2016, 08:05:09 am
Having read the UCMA version, in my opinion Bruce has been disrespectful and allowed himself to be a complete idiot.  That is all :facepalm:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on January 20, 2016, 08:17:03 am
I am pleased that UMCA have released that information (is there a link to that? Edit - I see it on their facebook page). It strikes me that they possibly did not release it earlier out of respect for Bruce. Now they have, he does appear to be the twuntish one.

Such a shame to see an attempt go to waste over such minor issues as paying a $35 membership fee and buying a £200-250 (including the annual fee) tracker.

No matter what he does now, he will only ever be a footnote in the second edition of Citizenfish's book.

It is very sad.  The guy clearly has the contacts to get hold of £5k+ bikes from canyon etc., but can't/won't pay out modest sums to become compliant with the requirements.

What a mess.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 20, 2016, 08:20:08 am
Oh dear. Bruce has hardly covered himself in glory there. Drew and UMCA have been remarkably patient and accommodating.
Exactly my thoughts.

They gave him days to sort things out, offered help. I think their reasons why his live tracking system was not acceptable are entirely understandable. A real shame he didn't appeal for funds to get a SPOT tracker; I would have dibbed in a few quid for him.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 20, 2016, 08:38:52 am
UMCA has played it pretty straight.  It's good that they have given the full explanation, and sensible of them to give him the full refund.

Bruce came across as disorganised, inconsistent and slightly aggressive.

But, this is not some kind of Pop Idol-type challenge, for airbrushed, perfect people! 

As I'm sure Steve would admit, you've got to be a little bit unusual to take something like this on.  The year round record (deliberately not HAMR) is not an agreeable personality contest, a test of obedience to rules, or of general amiability.  It's only about riding the miles.  If Bruce can do that to the satisfaction of enough people watching him on Strava or elsewhere, and hold it all together on his own for a year, I am certain he will be far more than a footnote. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ivo on January 20, 2016, 08:40:07 am
I already clicked the 'unfollow' button on Strava yesterday. The UMCA info I can see here now confirms that my gut feeling was right. No reason to give him kudos on Strava anymore. It looks like that's the only way of communication Bruce understands.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 20, 2016, 08:40:48 am
No sympathy with Bruce at all. All of this should have been sorted before he started. This is why the rules say the tracking device needs to have been tested two weeks before the attempt starts. His "record" counts for nought if he achieves it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on January 20, 2016, 08:51:01 am
The UMCA have come out of this really well, restored some faith after what seemed to be some bizarre stuff early last year.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 09:07:59 am
The UMCA could certainly do with clarifying their requirements about live tracking. Something along the lines of "Must be visible to the public without individual access approvals, and must maintain a log of positions recorded." That would at least stop someone in the future making the mistake.

Either that or make the fee higher to include the rental of a SPOT tracker and year long tracking subscription with a deposit refunded upon return (with the appropriate discount for riders that provide their own).

No-one predicted the membership issue though, that's an interesting one.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 09:18:03 am
Reading the post upthread detailing the UMCA's responses to Bruce, it would seem they made it abundantly clear that he needed a Spot tracker. And, as was pointed out yesterday, their rules require that this stuff is sorted at least two weeks before the attempt begins. Why didn't Bruce do that? He paid the money, so why not jump through the hoops? It all seems so futile.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 20, 2016, 09:28:55 am
meanwhile, Bruce just posted 343.1km
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 20, 2016, 09:38:39 am
Reading the post upthread detailing the UMCA's responses to Bruce, it would seem they made it abundantly clear that he needed a Spot tracker. And, as was pointed out yesterday, their rules require that this stuff is sorted at least two weeks before the attempt begins. Why didn't Bruce do that? He paid the money, so why not jump through the hoops? It all seems so futile.

Because he is good at cycling. And maybe not a lot else, like admin, building a team, communications, etc.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 09:42:10 am
Reading the post upthread detailing the UMCA's responses to Bruce, it would seem they made it abundantly clear that he needed a Spot tracker. And, as was pointed out yesterday, their rules require that this stuff is sorted at least two weeks before the attempt begins. Why didn't Bruce do that? He paid the money, so why not jump through the hoops? It all seems so futile.

Because he is good at cycling. And maybe not a lot else, like admin, building a team, communications, etc.

Yes, you're probably right - but he runs his own mobile bike mechanic business, so you would have thought he has some basic grasp of admin paperwork. Anyway, it seems such a shame. I assume his Week and Month Guinness claims lapsed for the same reason; the paperwork was never done.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 20, 2016, 09:44:35 am
This UMCA HAMR thing is flawed anyway, as it's skewed towards attempts like Kurts' with mild weather and a follow car. You can't compare Steves' ride to Kurts' because they're not done under the same conditions, despite having the same tracker and following the same rule book.

If Bruce wants to ride further than anyone else, that's his choice how he does it, surely.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 09:57:02 am
Indeed. And he chose to ride under the UMCA rules, then threw his teddies out of the cot because they'd rather he completed the preliminaries before he started riding - and then gave him two weeks after he started to get it sorted out. Pathetic, really.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rafletcher on January 20, 2016, 10:01:04 am
This UMCA HAMR thing is flawed anyway, as it's skewed towards attempts like Kurts' with mild weather and a follow car.

How so? Certainly mild weather, flat terrain and a support vehicle are a great help, but that's obvious to anyone.  And TG decided to go with them, rather than run independently for a British record.

And "Bruce" can do what he likes of course, if he wants to do it for his own satisfaction, and his sponsors don't mind/care, then let him. Proving he's done it will be another matter. The original Tommy Godwin record is that only because it was verified independently I assume.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on January 20, 2016, 10:08:38 am
This UMCA HAMR thing is flawed anyway, as it's skewed towards attempts like Kurts' with mild weather and a follow car. You can't compare Steves' ride to Kurts' because they're not done under the same conditions, despite having the same tracker and following the same rule book.

If Bruce wants to ride further than anyone else, that's his choice how he does it, surely.

As in all competition, the competitors have to take the interpretation of the rules and apply them as they see fit (getting as much advantage as they can whilst staying on the very edge of the rules).

Steve has chosen one way to execute an attempt under the rules, whilst kurt chose another.

Same rules, same competition. Their attempts are absolutely comparable in that respect.

Bruce has chosen not to work within those rules and whatever he does, it will never be comparable to Steve or Kurt.

I will not say he is wasting his time because if I could find a way to be given some nice bikes and ride them for a year, then I would love to (maybe not 200 odd miles a day though!). So I hope he enjoys his year of riding a bike, I really do. But, he is now not attempting to ride a bike further than anyone in a year, because even if he does, the standard of proof will always be subject to question and lack of independent validation (it appears that strava is not enough, people have already noted some discrepancies in his distances due to use/lack of use of a wheel sensor (I can not remember which way it was!).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 10:12:10 am
(it appears that strava is not enough, people have already noted some discrepancies in his distances due to use/lack of use of a wheel sensor (I can not remember which way it was!).

No, that was just down to amount of riding he had been doing within the Strava privacy zones. Looking at the rides on Garmin Connect confirmed this.

Here's the post that cleared that up: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93962.msg1971214#msg1971214
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 10:15:42 am
(it appears that strava is not enough, people have already noted some discrepancies in his distances due to use/lack of use of a wheel sensor (I can not remember which way it was!).

No, that was just down to amount of riding he had been doing within the Strava privacy zones. Looking at the rides on Garmin Connect confirmed this.

But it does illustrate the point that relying on Strava as proof of a 'record breaking' ride completed is, at best, unsatisfactory, and needs verification by some other method (and not simply a different interpretation of the same GPS trace).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on January 20, 2016, 10:19:32 am
Indeed. He could end up 'breaking the record' on Garmin connect but not on strava.

He's being a stubborn fool which I know is essential in long distance riding (the stubborn bit anyway, the fool helps sometimes), but really he will not be seen in the same light as Steve or kurt whatever happens.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 20, 2016, 10:20:48 am
(it appears that strava is not enough, people have already noted some discrepancies in his distances due to use/lack of use of a wheel sensor (I can not remember which way it was!).

No, that was just down to amount of riding he had been doing within the Strava privacy zones. Looking at the rides on Garmin Connect confirmed this.

Here's the post that cleared that up: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93962.msg1971214#msg1971214

Strava distances are often slightly below Garmin Connect distances as Strava is more aggressive about stopped time for segment comparison reasons. It reprocesses the GC data...

An admin explains this on this thread IIRC https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/21629956-Why-is-Strava-showing-different-times-than-my-Garmin-
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 20, 2016, 10:22:05 am
I always thought the difference between Florida, the Southern States and The eastern side of The UK was blindingly obvious. Maybe I'm wrong and my geography skills are completely crap and The UK is just like Florida, only different.

Just because the rules are the same, doesn't mean the miles are the same.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 20, 2016, 10:24:42 am
The UMCA could certainly do with clarifying their requirements about live tracking. Something along the lines of "Must be visible to the public without individual access approvals, and must maintain a log of positions recorded." That would at least stop someone in the future making the mistake.

Either that or make the fee higher to include the rental of a SPOT tracker and year long tracking subscription with a deposit refunded upon return (with the appropriate discount for riders that provide their own).

No-one predicted the membership issue though, that's an interesting one.

But they clarified that in subsequent correspondence. They required a SPOT tracker. I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept Find My Friends as what are the chances his phone would keep charge throughout and it's reliant on a mobile signal. Like Miles it sounds like Bruce might be "technologically challenged".
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 20, 2016, 10:25:31 am
he will not be seen in the same light as Steve or kurt whatever happens.

It's hard to predict the future!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 20, 2016, 10:26:03 am
I always thought the difference between Florida, the Southern States and The eastern side of The UK was blindingly obvious. Maybe I'm wrong and my geography skills are completely crap and The UK is just like Florida, only different.

Just because the rules are the same, doesn't mean the miles are the same.

It's a mileage record. How you do them within the rules doesn't matter. Whether you do them in the UK, Florida, Antarctica or Timbucktu a mile is a mile.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: MacB on January 20, 2016, 10:29:26 am
From the other angle, assume Bruce completes a year, exceeds all previous mileage records and Strava et al are happy. We'll have even more to argue about. It would just add another but to the equation:-

but Tommy did it on prehistoric stone wheels
but Steve s doing it pure audax UK style
but Kurt had too much weather advantage
but Kurt used a recumbent
but Bruce wasn't UMCA/Guiness verified
but Bruce still did more miles and we believe him
but Tommy didn't have live trackers
but.....but........but......the buts are endless

and it'll go round and round

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Justin(e) on January 20, 2016, 10:31:13 am
1. I am sorry I have been riding every day as you can no doubt see, and forgot to make the payment.

2. I looked into the spot tracking and simply do not have the funds to spend more money on this option. I sent you a option that does provide live tracking and it would do the job required. It does not say on your website that I have to use a specific brand of live tracking, simply that I must have live tracking. I think I have not breached any rules here either.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Membership of UMCA was overlooked for pretty valid reasons.  There was no philosophical objection to this.  It would have been sorted out in the end.

And the response to live tracking was also valid.  He obeyed the letter and the spirit of the laws.  250 quid is no trivial amount, and kudos for Bruce doing this attempt without support.

I understand that officials are likely to be officious, but totally surprised that bystanders on here resort to calling this magnificent audacious rider a "twunt".  If you think he is cheating, say so.  This disagreement is not about dodgey mileages, it is about petty compliance with buying one particular brand of data logger.  Absolutely pathetic.

Allez Bruce.  Ride far and take the 'real' record of the greatest ever annual mileage.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 10:36:35 am
Strava itself is not proof, it's just a handy public place to store the logs of what riding was done (and in the case of the UMCA riders, a log of what they believe is accurate/fact).

The proof was several fold:-
a) The live (well, position updates every 15 minutes) tracker was visible to everyone in real time
b) The uploaded GPX/FIT files to Strava could be matched against the log from the live tracker
c) People looked at the live tracker and went out looking for Steve/Kurt/whoever and bumped into them, frequent mentions of "I was there when he was supposed to go past but didn't see him" would have made themselves obvious and they didn't (not including the people that simply can't read a tracker properly, or the fact that it's sometimes hard to guess where he is going to go since you need to be ahead of him!). Maybe even some local representatives of the UMCA did this unannounced to confirm they were riding, they may have just sat on a bench in Flatwood or Marsh Gibbon and waited and not even acknowledged him...
d) The riders had to upload daily photos/videos to the UMCA, this helps confirm the rider was in various places at specified times that tally with the GPX logs. You can also get cues from the weather in the background, etc.

(a) shows that something was moving around at the time it was and helps confirm that the more granular GPX/FIT files (b) are representative of that thing moving around. The cadence/HR/power data in the GPX/FIT files help show it was most likely someone cycling and then (c) and (d) help show that it was actually Kurt/Steve being the thing that was cycling (it being too risky to have a random person find someone else instead of Kurt/Steve riding a bike along the road at that time.)

Without a live tracker that keeps a log of where it had gone you lose the (b) confirmation that the GPX/FIT files uploaded are a fair representation of a day's ride as you can't do a side by side comaprison at the end of each day.

Without public access to the live tracker you make it hard for (c) to happen.

I've no idea whether Bruce was complying with (d) or not.

What Steve/Kurt log on Strava/Bikejournal (or whatever Kurt used) isn't proof, but by following the other requirements it gets blessed by the UMCA (or other validating authority) as being an accepted/accurate record of the day.

Likewise what Bruce uploads isn't proof, and he lacks the actions of the UMCA (or someone else currently) to promote them to 'accepted' status.

I can imagine Bruce's Strava uploads alone will be enough to convince some people, and he may get people to come along to witness him (every day is doubtful), but without the daily proof requirements being checked by a separate authority it's not going to be enough to satisfy (by my guess) the vast majority of people.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 20, 2016, 10:37:21 am
@ Justin(e) Agreed, he deserves some respect.

Calling him a _unt is a sad reflection on the name callers.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Justin(e) on January 20, 2016, 10:45:05 am
but Kurt used a recumbent

This seems to me to be one of the key ingredients as to why we should give UMCA such little credibility.

The rule of being able to ride a recumbent bicycle was introduced after Steve had his 'off'.  The fact that Hoppo seems to have had a controversial role in both Steve's camp and the UMCA camp points to the rules being amended on the fly to suit one particular rider.  Of course this does not even scratch the surface when in 2014 Steve helped draft all the rules in the first place.

Kurt then used this rule change to his full advantage.  In my opinion, this was most unfortunate - as it questioned the legitimacy of his putative record.

Compare this to Bruce's attempt.  Instead of rules being changed to assist his attempt (recumbent), rules are being changed (prescribed manufacturer's kit) to hinder his attempt. 

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 10:46:44 am
The UMCA could certainly do with clarifying their requirements about live tracking. Something along the lines of "Must be visible to the public without individual access approvals, and must maintain a log of positions recorded." That would at least stop someone in the future making the mistake.

Either that or make the fee higher to include the rental of a SPOT tracker and year long tracking subscription with a deposit refunded upon return (with the appropriate discount for riders that provide their own).

No-one predicted the membership issue though, that's an interesting one.

But they clarified that in subsequent correspondence. They required a SPOT tracker. I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept Find My Friends as what are the chances his phone would keep charge throughout and it's reliant on a mobile signal. Like Miles it sounds like Bruce might be "technologically challenged".

Then why not put in the rules that a SPOT tracker is explicitly required? They asked for "Live Tracking" without specifics of what was required, they also said it must be in place at least two weeks before the record attempt was due to start but the correspondence released suggests Bruce was first told to get a SPOT tracker on December 30th.

(Obviously there must have been correspondence before 30th December as Bruce would have needed to apply in the first place, so it might have been covered there.)

Is it Bruce's fault for not ensuring the live tracking was acceptable before starting, or the UMCA's fault for not enforcing its rules early enough to give him fair warning? (Probably a combination of both...)

[EDIT]

Keeping things charged isn't a technology problem, it's a logisitical problem, and it applies to the recording device (Garmin) too, so no difference there. There are rules in place to deal with what happens when the tracking is lost, which ultimately ends up in a DQ if it proves too unreliable.

SPOT trackers aren't 100% reliable either, there are plenty of times where Steve and Kurt's trackers have missed a few updates (not just because they've turned them off at a stop!). Mobile coverage looks fine in Adelaide (and the roads he was using) and isn't really a problem in the UK, depending on your mobile network you're rarely out of signal for more than 10 minutes if you're cycling, which isn't much different from SPOT updates every 15 minutes. The lack of public access to the data, and the lack of logging, looked to be the problem and I'm surprised that couldn't be addressed with a different app, surely there is one out there that does both of those for cheap.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 20, 2016, 10:52:23 am
so now we have two male riders riding a year's highest mileage for their own pleasure? :)

i've ridden an audax in the past where i forgot to send the card with receipts to the organiser after finishing it. did i do that ride? i have the card, receipts and gps track to prove! ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 10:54:01 am
Strava themselves will not ratify or in any way guarantee that the statistics stored on their site are accurate or even genuine - their terms and conditions state such. Neither will they take on the oversight of any efforts which require independent verification. So, when anyone asks Strava if Bruce actually rode what he says he rode, they'll say something along the lines of "no comment". That's not how he wants it, I'm sure, and it's not going to garner him the credit which he will probably deserve. There's also the point (raised upthread) that he's secured equipment sponsorship, presumably on the basis that he's attempting some kind of official record. The sponsors may regard the Strava exposure as sufficient return, but equally they may not. I doubt any will demand the return of their equipment, but they may refuse to allow him to mention them in any publicity he secures - which I suspect will now be less than it could have been.


As for the cost of the Spot tracker, as many have said on here and on Strava, crowdfunding would have sorted that instantly. It's not a valid excuse. Especially in view of the airfares and other expenses incurred in going from the UK to Australia.

I'm not about to call him names, but I feel his behaviour has been foolish at best.
 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: andyoxon on January 20, 2016, 10:56:18 am
Shame that Bruce seems to have burnt his bridges with the UMCA.  As for all the effort required for a year long record,  like others I really doubt, in the absence of independent official scrutiny, that Strava alone will be enough in the way of 'validation'.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: The Seldom Killer on January 20, 2016, 10:56:35 am
The year round record (deliberately not HAMR) is not an agreeable personality contest, a test of obedience to rules, or of general amiability.  It's only about riding the miles.

That rather depends on who you want to recognise and respect your claim of holding the record. If it's just your mates down the pub and some randoms on Strava then you're right. However, if you want broader recognition then it absolutely a test of following a rule set of some description and it's going to need someone with the personality that can do that. It's more than about riding the miles, its about recording them and doing so in a fashion that the people you seek the recognition of will trust.

Now, I'm not able to speak for Bruce. However, if you make public claims and initially register with an organisation that the UMCA and/or Guiness, it seems likely that you're interested in recognition from more than just your mates.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 10:56:45 am


I'm inclined to let Bruce get on with it. He's clearly incapable of falsifying his data, as he lacks the competence.

We can examine his data to see if it conforms to the trends seen in other record attempts, which is a dataset that has grown enormously in the last year. It will be easy to see any 'blips' that indicate cheating or changes in methodology. Riding with pros comes to mind, or motor-pacing. Those won't disqualify him in my mind, but he might need to explain those variations.

UMCA need to defend their existence. The rise of unsupported 'Transcontinental' rides is putting them out of a job. Audax is feeling some of that, look at the two parallel 'Wild Atlantic Way' rides in Ireland. But there is no monopoly in Audacity, one meaning of which is 'bare faced cheek'.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: aoxomoxoa on January 20, 2016, 10:57:20 am
but Kurt used a recumbent

....  Of course this does not even scratch the surface when in 2014 Steve helped draft all the rules in the first place.


Aha, so drafting is allowed after all  8)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 20, 2016, 10:57:41 am
Thanks to Drew Clark & UMCA for clarifying the situation.  Lack of transparency was not helping.

I was keeping an open mind till we had confirmation.  Now we have that, it does seem like Bruce, phenomenal rider though he is, is cutting off his nose to spite his face, and, to mix my metaphors, spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar (well, £150 worth).

It's a massive shame, as he has/had a strong chance of beating Kurt and Steve, given decent support.  Carrying on riding, cause it's what he is good at, could yet provide a headscratcher for record keepers. 

I still wish him good luck and tailwinds.  And the very best of luck getting Guinness to ratify an attempt retrospectively, which has  proposed relocation across the globe planned! :\
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 20, 2016, 10:58:34 am
The UMCA could certainly do with clarifying their requirements about live tracking. Something along the lines of "Must be visible to the public without individual access approvals, and must maintain a log of positions recorded." That would at least stop someone in the future making the mistake.

Either that or make the fee higher to include the rental of a SPOT tracker and year long tracking subscription with a deposit refunded upon return (with the appropriate discount for riders that provide their own).

No-one predicted the membership issue though, that's an interesting one.

But they clarified that in subsequent correspondence. They required a SPOT tracker. I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept Find My Friends as what are the chances his phone would keep charge throughout and it's reliant on a mobile signal. Like Miles it sounds like Bruce might be "technologically challenged".

Then why not put in the rules that a SPOT tracker is explicitly required? They asked for "Live Tracking" without specifics of what was required, they also said it must be in place at least two weeks before the record attempt was due to start but the correspondence released suggests Bruce was first told to get a SPOT tracker on December 30th.

(Obviously there must have been correspondence before 30th December as Bruce would have needed to apply in the first place, so it might have been covered there.)

Is it Bruce's fault for not ensuring the live tracking was acceptable before starting, or the UMCA's fault for not enforcing its rules early enough to give him fair warning? (Probably a combination of both...)

Reading between the lines there must have been correspondence about the tracker before the 30th December. It sounds like Bruce's method had already been discounted by the UCMA. They gave him the opportunity to get a SPOT tracker after he had started, that might have put into question any mileage he acquired before it was activated though.

The membership fee was unfortunate and could have been sorted in a few minutes.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 20, 2016, 10:59:33 am
but Kurt used a recumbent

This seems to me to be one of the key ingredients as to why we should give UMCA such little credibility.

The rule of being able to ride a recumbent bicycle was introduced after Steve had his 'off'.  The fact that Hoppo seems to have had a controversial role in both Steve's camp and the UMCA camp points to the rules being amended on the fly to suit one particular rider.  Of course this does not even scratch the surface when in 2014 Steve helped draft all the rules in the first place.

Kurt then used this rule change to his full advantage.  In my opinion, this was most unfortunate - as it questioned the legitimacy of his putative record.

Compare this to Bruce's attempt.  Instead of rules being changed to assist his attempt (recumbent), rules are being changed (prescribed manufacturer's kit) to hinder his attempt.

Citation needed!

Kurt was riding his 'bent in January, long before Steve's off. https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=87329.msg1797566#msg1797566

I don't think this was a rule change during the course of the challenge and couldn't have been in response to Steve's use of one.

And following the correspondence between UMCA and Bruce, it looks to me that there would have been space for an alternative to Spot that satisfied the requirements of open access and a log of previous positions should Bruce have proposed one. I see the mention of Spot as a helpful suggestion that was known to be practical and affordable.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 11:04:05 am
Shame that Bruce seems to have burnt his bridges with the UMCA.

I don't think that at all. I'm sure they'd welcome a subsequent application for HAM'R as long as he complied with the rules and got his membership sorted.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 20, 2016, 11:04:27 am
And following the correspondence between UMCA and Bruce, it looks to me that there would have been space for an alternative to Spot that satisfied the requirements of open access and a log of previous positions should Bruce have proposed one. I see the the mention of Spot as a helpful suggestion that was known to be practical and affordable.
The solution Bruce wanted to use wasn't open.

I find this debacle really sad, as Bruce is obviously a very capable rider who has planned his riding schedule very thoroughly.

He has blinkers when dealing with organisations. He's said he'll go under Guiness; well they don't allow drafting and he's using that a lot.

At this stage he would be much better asking for funds for a SPOT tracker, going back to UMCA and restarting. He isn't long into his 365 days.

As I've already said, I'd put a few pennies towards him getting a tracker.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 11:06:02 am
And the very best of luck getting Guinness to ratify an attempt retrospectively, which has  proposed relocation across the globe planned! :\

I'm sure this will be covered by their rules. Especially as Kajsa has similar plans.

Guinness don't allow drafting, so he may have to throw away the rides to date and promise not to take anyone's wheel in the future.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 20, 2016, 11:07:47 am
The UMCA could certainly do with clarifying their requirements about live tracking. Something along the lines of "Must be visible to the public without individual access approvals, and must maintain a log of positions recorded." That would at least stop someone in the future making the mistake.

Either that or make the fee higher to include the rental of a SPOT tracker and year long tracking subscription with a deposit refunded upon return (with the appropriate discount for riders that provide their own).

No-one predicted the membership issue though, that's an interesting one.

But they clarified that in subsequent correspondence. They required a SPOT tracker. I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept Find My Friends as what are the chances his phone would keep charge throughout and it's reliant on a mobile signal. Like Miles it sounds like Bruce might be "technologically challenged".

Then why not put in the rules that a SPOT tracker is explicitly required? They asked for "Live Tracking" without specifics of what was required, they also said it must be in place at least two weeks before the record attempt was due to start but the correspondence released suggests Bruce was first told to get a SPOT tracker on December 30th.

(Obviously there must have been correspondence before 30th December as Bruce would have needed to apply in the first place, so it might have been covered there.)

Is it Bruce's fault for not ensuring the live tracking was acceptable before starting, or the UMCA's fault for not enforcing its rules early enough to give him fair warning? (Probably a combination of both...)

[EDIT]

Keeping things charged isn't a technology problem, it's a logisitical problem, and it applies to the recording device (Garmin) too, so no difference there. There are rules in place to deal with what happens when the tracking is lost, which ultimately ends up in a DQ if it proves too unreliable.

SPOT trackers aren't 100% reliable either, there are plenty of times where Steve and Kurt's trackers have missed a few updates (not just because they've turned them off at a stop!). Mobile coverage looks fine in Adelaide (and the roads he was using) and isn't really a problem in the UK, depending on your mobile network you're rarely out of signal for more than 10 minutes if you're cycling, which isn't much different from SPOT updates every 15 minutes. The lack of public access to the data, and the lack of logging, looked to be the problem and I'm surprised that couldn't be addressed with a different app, surely there is one out there that does both of those for cheap.

Good points. 
The Spot thing is starting to feel like an application of a US requirement (as their mobile networks don't cover much of the country between cities) to other countries where there is not the same need. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 11:11:27 am


I'm inclined to let Bruce get on with it. He's clearly incapable of falsifying his data, as he lacks the competence.

We can examine his data to see if it conforms to the trends seen in other record attempts, which is a dataset that has grown enormously in the last year. It will be easy to see any 'blips' that indicate cheating or changes in methodology. Riding with pros comes to mind, or motor-pacing. Those won't disqualify him in my mind, but he might need to explain those variations.

UMCA need to defend their existence. The rise of unsupported 'Transcontinental' rides is putting them out of a job. Audax is feeling some of that, look at the two parallel 'Wild Atlantic Way' rides in Ireland. But there is no monopoly in Audacity, one meaning of which is 'bare faced cheek'.

I was unaware you had the choice of whether Bruce got on with it or not? I imagine he'll do as he wishes. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Bruce has or would falsify any of his riding; that's not the point. It's that the riding is not verified by other means. I very much doubt whether anyone will ever bother going through a year's worth of .fit files looking for anomalies. They'll either believe him or they won't, but he will never be able to claim a record.

Clarion, Guinness have previously stated they would have nothing to do with the Tommy Godwin record (I believe Steve raised it with them). Are you aware that there's been any change in that position? If not, I'm afraid Bruce would have no chance of applying for retrospective ratification in any case - even less so without the independent verifications such as those the UMCA have asked for - and Kajsa is also having to provide.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on January 20, 2016, 11:13:29 am
but Kurt used a recumbent

This seems to me to be one of the key ingredients as to why we should give UMCA such little credibility.

The rule of being able to ride a recumbent bicycle was introduced after Steve had his 'off'.  The fact that Hoppo seems to have had a controversial role in both Steve's camp and the UMCA camp points to the rules being amended on the fly to suit one particular rider.  Of course this does not even scratch the surface when in 2014 Steve helped draft all the rules in the first place.

Kurt then used this rule change to his full advantage.  In my opinion, this was most unfortunate - as it questioned the legitimacy of his putative record.

Compare this to Bruce's attempt.  Instead of rules being changed to assist his attempt (recumbent), rules are being changed (prescribed manufacturer's kit) to hinder his attempt.

I believe this is absolutely untrue.

Bents were allowed from day 1.

Kurt used a bent, that was in the rules.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 20, 2016, 11:14:19 am
Guinness have previously stated they would have nothing to do with the Tommy Godwin record (I believe Steve raised it with them). Are you aware that there's been any change in that position?

Surely the fact that they are interested in ratifying Kajsa is a significant change in position.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: SoreTween on January 20, 2016, 11:15:46 am
Quote from: Justin(e)
... it is about petty compliance with buying one particular brand of data logger.
No it isn't, it is about the "defensible wall" around the evidence. Anybody can without alerting Steve  intercept him and verify it is he riding and he's not drafting a motorbike (just examples,not accusations).  This is not the case with Bruce, his evidence is too easy to fake and he has proven he is unwilling to adhere to rules other than his own.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 11:16:51 am

Good points. 
The Spot thing is starting to feel like an application of a US requirement (as their mobile networks don't cover much of the country between cities) to other countries where there is not the same need. 

The UMCA stated that their objection to the tracking solutions Bruce offered was that they needed a subscription of some sort to be viewed, and weren't available for anyone to view. Those seem like reasonable objections to me. Reliability may have been an issue, but I'm sure there are other solutions acceptable to UMCA. It's just that SPOT is a proven system which both the UMCA and the other participants have learned to use - and to accommodate its idiosyncrasies - and to which we have all had access if we wished.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 11:19:19 am
Guinness have previously stated they would have nothing to do with the Tommy Godwin record (I believe Steve raised it with them). Are you aware that there's been any change in that position?

Surely the fact that they are interested in ratifying Kajsa is a significant change in position.

It's been stated that Guinness believe that the Tommy Godwin record is too dangerous to attempt to break.

Maybe they don't think the female version is too dangerous as it does not require riding so much per day.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 11:19:48 am
We've got graphical evidence of what a well-monitored record looks like, in Kurt. That's plotted against Tommy Godwin here. TG's fortunes changed when the largest cycle manufacturer in the world started helping him, hence the change from a very steep downward slope, to an even steeper upward one.

We just need to monitor Bruce and explain wild swings in performance, if he crashed in a remote Himalayan valley and received a secret potion from a 300 year old Lama, that sort of thing.

(http://gicentre.org/oytt/images/oyttDay374.png)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 20, 2016, 11:21:18 am
Guinness have previously stated they would have nothing to do with the Tommy Godwin record (I believe Steve raised it with them). Are you aware that there's been any change in that position?

Surely the fact that they are interested in ratifying Kajsa is a significant change in position.

It's been stated that Guinness believe that the Tommy Godwin record is too dangerous to attempt to break.

Maybe they don't think the female version is too dangerous as it does not require riding so much per day.

Yes, but that was years ago (back in the seventies?).  The fact that Kurt has done it and survived must change that view.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 11:22:02 am
Guinness have previously stated they would have nothing to do with the Tommy Godwin record (I believe Steve raised it with them). Are you aware that there's been any change in that position?

Surely the fact that they are interested in ratifying Kajsa is a significant change in position.

I'm not sure it is, as I believe their objection was the extreme physical stress Tommy's record represented. As the thread about Kajsa has shown, there is something of a feeling that her attempt needs determination and grit, but is less an athletic effort than a perseverance effort. I'm not arguing that point, but Guinness may well have felt something similar. In any case, I got the impression that the preliminaries and rules with Guinness were rather more onerous than with UMCA, and most definitely needed sorting in advance.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 20, 2016, 11:22:56 am
I got the impression that the preliminaries and rules with Guinness were rather more onerous than with UMCA, and most definitely needed sorting in advance.

I also got that impression, but Kajsa stated the opposite.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 11:24:28 am
I got the impression that the preliminaries and rules with Guinness were rather more onerous than with UMCA, and most definitely needed sorting in advance.

I also got that impression, but Kajsa stated the opposite.

Really? It was from Kajsa's blog (I think!) that I got that impression!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 20, 2016, 11:28:28 am
so now we have two male riders riding a year's highest mileage for their own pleasure? :)

i've ridden an audax in the past where i forgot to send the card with receipts to the organiser after finishing it. did i do that ride? i have the card, receipts and gps track to prove! ;D

Ooooh, errr, hmmm.

Let me just stick my head up my arse for a while, and I'll get back to you on that.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on January 20, 2016, 11:32:09 am
but Kurt used a recumbent

This seems to me to be one of the key ingredients as to why we should give UMCA such little credibility.

The rule of being able to ride a recumbent bicycle was introduced after Steve had his 'off'.  The fact that Hoppo seems to have had a controversial role in both Steve's camp and the UMCA camp points to the rules being amended on the fly to suit one particular rider.  Of course this does not even scratch the surface when in 2014 Steve helped draft all the rules in the first place.

Kurt then used this rule change to his full advantage.  In my opinion, this was most unfortunate - as it questioned the legitimacy of his putative record.

Compare this to Bruce's attempt.  Instead of rules being changed to assist his attempt (recumbent), rules are being changed (prescribed manufacturer's kit) to hinder his attempt.

IIRC I don't think it was. The rule of using a bent has always been there. Kurt logged many miles on a bent before Steve had his off. He even had John S fit it for him at Vite Bikes when he first drove out to Florida. :)





Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Sea of vapours on January 20, 2016, 11:34:00 am
Guinness have previously stated they would have nothing to do with the Tommy Godwin record (I believe Steve raised it with them). Are you aware that there's been any change in that position?

Surely the fact that they are interested in ratifying Kajsa is a significant change in position.


It's been stated that Guinness believe that the Tommy Godwin record is too dangerous to attempt to break.

Maybe they don't think the female version is too dangerous as it does not require riding so much per day.

If that is Guinness' view now (that the female record is 'safer' than the 'male' one then) there's a non-trivial, logical flaw in their thinking. Whilst the supposed target for women is 'only' about 50,000km, there's nothing whatsoever stopping someone signing up to Guinness' adjudication and then trying to do a great deal more than that, thus taking the attempt into what Guinnness', speculatively, consider to be unsafe. I suppose they may have put an upper limit on what they'll ratify.... Seems improbable though.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Frank9755 on January 20, 2016, 11:38:27 am
I got the impression that the preliminaries and rules with Guinness were rather more onerous than with UMCA, and most definitely needed sorting in advance.

I also got that impression, but Kajsa stated the opposite.

Really? It was from Kajsa's blog (I think!) that I got that impression!

See this comment from Burlycross on her thread:

As I saw Steve off last year, I thought it would be fun to ride out and see Kajsa off on her year yesterday.
...
Had a nice long chat with her
...
It was interesting to hear the reasons behind the choice of Guinness as the body for authentication rather than the UMCA.  In a nutshell its down to the global recognition that Guinness brings to the process, along with the fact that they were nicer to deal with than the UMCA apparently, oh and free!

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 11:41:36 am
Ok, fair enough. I still don't believe they'll entertain a retrospective ratification of Bruce's ride, especially without the independent verification that both they and the UMCA demand.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aidan on January 20, 2016, 12:40:05 pm

Good points. 
The Spot thing is starting to feel like an application of a US requirement (as their mobile networks don't cover much of the country between cities) to other countries where there is not the same need. 

The UMCA stated that their objection to the tracking solutions Bruce offered was that they needed a subscription of some sort to be viewed, and weren't available for anyone to view. Those seem like reasonable objections to me. Reliability may have been an issue, but I'm sure there are other solutions acceptable to UMCA. It's just that SPOT is a proven system which both the UMCA and the other participants have learned to use - and to accommodate its idiosyncrasies - and to which we have all had access if we wished.

The other objection was Find my Friends (or similar) does not record a trail, so rides can be verified against the garmin track.
To me, the requirement is sensible, I think the UMCA rules look sensible, and they seem , from the announcement, to have tried to work with Bruce.   He knew the rules, he hasnt complied, and when warned then DQd he's  called it unfair.   Kurt and Steve had no problem complying, Bruces attempt without a verification process, as has been stated above somewhere, is just a blooming long bike ride, not a record attempt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 20, 2016, 12:50:46 pm
Kajsa also came up with a question when I talked to her, she asked "if anyone had actually asked Guinness?"

She said she talked to them and they were very nice  :D

There appears so much hearsay about this record, as is evidence in these threads, and I believe citizenfish has mentioned of no account of Guinness stating the record is too dangerous.

Interesting to hear (if this is the case) that Steve asked them, but again was that so, or did he just not like their regulations, being against the original record which allowed multiple bikes, start places and drafting to not entertain them.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 12:53:24 pm
UMCA strike me as self-serving in their restrictions.

Quote
Please be aware that you still also need to sign up for Spot tracker, per my previous email, pasted here for reference:
You definitely need to get the Spot tracker for the following reasons.
1. Spot will allow open access. Any neutral observer can go to the Spot website and track your rides, as opposed to the Find My Friends app which requires a friend request to be approved. Spot will serve the fan base of ultracycling better as well as serve you better; once your attempt begins, you do not need to spend any time approving friend requests for the live tracker, nor should the ultracycling fan base need to wait for approval. Even as simple as the process may be, we do not want to deter observers in the least.


I certainly don't need UMCA to mediate my interest in long distance cycling. Obviously there's a tendency to see anyone posting Strava data as a show-off. But interposing the judgement of UMCA, or any other body, doesn't suddenly make them a shining beacon of modesty. They're still showing off, or trying to at least.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 20, 2016, 01:06:45 pm
I think that misses the point.  Fanbase = observers = verification.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 20, 2016, 01:15:19 pm
What are the alternatives to SPOT trackers?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on January 20, 2016, 01:17:39 pm
There appears so much hearsay about this record, as is evidence in these threads, and I believe citizenfish has mentioned of no account of Guinness stating the record is too dangerous.

I was guilty of believing this in the early days of my research as it was told to me by an *old timer*. I found out that the Guinness problem stemmed from them adding Ken Webb's record into the book with no verification on their part at all. I have a series of letters that went to and fro with them concerning this and they eventually removed it and replaced it with Godwin's. They then removed this as well, a few years back myself and his daughter asked "Why?" and they said they would put it back in.

A few years back another guy approached me having decided to take the record on. I was extremely cynical as he had done about zero riding before, but he approached Guinness for some terms and here is an excerpt. Have a good laugh at this and then ask yourself "do you really want these people involved in the year record verification"?

******************************************************************************

1.A log book detailing the laps/routes, date, location and distance must be submitted.

2. The event must be made on a pre-measured course that is perfectly level. Ideally, this should be an official athletics track. Where such a track is not used, the course must be measured and marked out by someone suitably qualified, such as a professional surveyor. This person should also confirm that the average gradient over the entire course is no greater than 1:1000. If the gradient is steeper than this, the record attempt must be made “uphill”.

3. The attempt should take place on a measured course such as an indoor cycling track or a stadium athletics track. Where the length of the course is not known exactly (i.e. where the track being used is not an approved cycling or athletics track), the circuit length must be measured by a professional qualified surveyor, and a report on letterhead paper must be provided detailing the circuit length and how it was measured. The distance will be taken as the average length of the track (i.e. the length down the middle).

4. The number of laps completed should be noted in a logbook by the witnesses present, to enable the overall distance cycled to be calculated. Note that cycle or vehicle odometers are not acceptable means of measuring the distance covered.

5. The cycle used should be standard, complying with UCI regulations in every way. A road or track cycle may be used. The bicycle must be inspected by an appropriately qualified official from a cycling club or federation, and this person should provide a witness statement testifying to the fact that the bicycle complies with UCI specifications.

The name of the organisation, company or person(s) making the attempt must be given, along with the date and place.

The event must take place in a public place or in a venue open to public inspection.

The event is continuous. The clock does not stop. One year means a complete 12-month cycle including rest breaks. For example, if the event starts at 12 noon on January 1st, it must finish at 12 noon the following January 1st.

The participant may take as many breaks as he/she wishes, but the clock must not stop at any time for any reason.

A loud start and finish signal recognized by all participants must be used.

Two experienced timekeepers (e.g. from a local athletics club) must time the attempt with stopwatches accurate to 0.01 seconds.

The activity you are attempting MUST BE CLEARLY VISIBLE on the video footage as we will not be able to accept your claim. This comes from problems we have encountered when trying to count legitimate push-ups.

The entire attempt must be filmed in case further evidence is required.

For times up to one hour, we expect the entire attempt to be submitted on video. For events longer than this, a ‘highlights package’ will be acceptable but must include the following points:
o Footage of the start of the attempt
o Two minutes footage every hour
o Any points where the claimant takes a break – a clock or timer must be
visible on screen, but not the camcorder’s own time display o The point at which the record is broken
o The end of the attempt.

The camera must be focused on the attempt at all times and preferably be static.
  Failure to include the required documentation will ultimately delay the outcome of your claim or lead to its rejection.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: andyoxon on January 20, 2016, 01:21:36 pm
Shame that Bruce seems to have burnt his bridges with the UMCA.

I don't think that at all. I'm sure they'd welcome a subsequent application for HAM'R as long as he complied with the rules and got his membership sorted.

Yes perhaps it would be OK for a 'reboot'...

I was just looking at this:
Quote
The UMCA Board wishes Bruce Berkeley well in his attempt, but UMCA will not certify the attempt and will not verify mileage for the attempt.

At least his fee has been refunded - so I guess that might be a bit of an 'open door' to a restart.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jacamo on January 20, 2016, 01:26:53 pm
What are the alternatives to SPOT trackers?

The DeLorme inReach is one. It's costs a lot more, though.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 20, 2016, 01:28:43 pm
but Kurt used a recumbent

This seems to me to be one of the key ingredients as to why we should give UMCA such little credibility.

The rule of being able to ride a recumbent bicycle was introduced after Steve had his 'off'.  The fact that Hoppo seems to have had a controversial role in both Steve's camp and the UMCA camp points to the rules being amended on the fly to suit one particular rider.  Of course this does not even scratch the surface when in 2014 Steve helped draft all the rules in the first place.

Kurt then used this rule change to his full advantage.  In my opinion, this was most unfortunate - as it questioned the legitimacy of his putative record.

Compare this to Bruce's attempt.  Instead of rules being changed to assist his attempt (recumbent), rules are being changed (prescribed manufacturer's kit) to hinder his attempt.

HAMR rules always permitted the use of unfaired recumbents; USAnian cycling organisations have a refreshingly unstuffy attitude to the use of recumbents.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 20, 2016, 01:31:11 pm
A few years back another guy approached me having decided to take the record on. I was extremely cynical as he had done about zero riding before, but he approached Guinness for some terms and here is an excerpt. Have a good laugh at this and then ask yourself "do you really want these people involved in the year record verification"?

[...]

That's great. I can picture the scene:

~~~~~~~~

A few years back...

Support team chief: Mr McWhirter, McWhirter! We've finished our record attempt!
N.McW: Ah good. How's your rider?
STC: A little dizzy.
STC: Anyway, here's the filmed evidence of the attempt for you to verify. *Hands over a large box of video tapes*. The other 6 lorries of video tapes are parked outside.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rafletcher on January 20, 2016, 01:35:29 pm

 Have a good laugh at this and then ask yourself "do you really want these people involved in the year record verification"?

Snip


Well I guess whoever sent that out saw "cycle" and "record" and banged out the standard rubric. Obviously things have moved on for Kajsa's attempt
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 20, 2016, 01:36:34 pm
It talked about counting push ups!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 01:39:11 pm
Ha!

365 days of 12 hours riding = 4380 hours.

2 minutes per hour of 4380 hours = 146 hours.

That's 4 weeks of a 9-5 job to watch it all to verify it. Almost worth doing it just to make them have to watch it.

An hour of 720p video footage is ~6GB, so 146 hours would easily fit on a 2TB HDD. No lorries required sadly. Of course, you could burn the videos on to ~1200 CDs for a similar (modern) effect.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 20, 2016, 01:39:51 pm
It mentions nothing about leap years.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 01:41:33 pm
It mentions nothing about leap years.

Or leap seconds.

Kurt benefited from an extra second added at June 30, 2015 at 23:59:60 UTC.

Tommy didn't have this, etc, etc, etc.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 20, 2016, 01:44:02 pm
Well, having seen the transcript, and had a look at Bruce's Fb page, it all seems a bit of a storm in a teacup that could have been avoided.

It does come across a little bit like Bruce's ego is getting in the way of making a 'serious' attempt at the record. He's all caught up in his 'fame' on Strava (look, over 1,000 followers, wowza!), riding with 'the boys' from Team Sky, etc. In contrast it appears that UMCA were trying to help and advise but apparently this rubbed Bruce up the wrong way.

Good luck to him, he's clearly a strong rider. I do wonder though just how long he can keep this up with the current low budget solo approach, with no support, couch surfing, etc. I shall be interested to find out in the months to come.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on January 20, 2016, 01:52:05 pm

Good luck to him, he's clearly a strong rider. I do wonder though just how long he can keep this up with the current low budget solo approach, with no support, coach surfing, etc. I shall be interested to find out in the months to come.

Yeah, can't see that helping

(https://expatbrazil.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/rj-bus-surfing.jpg)

 ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 20, 2016, 02:01:56 pm
Autocorrect: damn you Apple!  ;)

Now adjusted.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 20, 2016, 02:47:27 pm
A few years back another guy approached me having decided to take the record on. I was extremely cynical as he had done about zero riding before, but he approached Guinness for some terms and here is an excerpt. Have a good laugh at this and then ask yourself "do you really want these people involved in the year record verification"?

[...]

That's great. I can picture the scene:

~~~~~~~~

A few years back...

Support team chief: Mr McWhirter, McWhirter! We've finished our record attempt!
N.McW: Ah good. How's your rider?
STC: A little dizzy.
STC: Anyway, here's the filmed evidence of the attempt for you to verify. *Hands over a large box of video tapes*. The other 6 lorries of video tapes are parked outside.

;D

Actually, those rules (or something very like them) are up on the Guinness website.

When Steve was researching this a couple of years ago, he made the following statements here on YACF:

Quote from: teethginder 6 Jun 2013
TG 6 June 2013
Guinness pretty much refuse to reckognise any attempt at the record. The only way they would validate it would be if someone did it on a velodrome while being watched by someone in person.

TG 7 June 2013
Guinness are corrupt because they charge about £1000 per claim, which rules out anyone from poor countries making a claim. The LEJOG record is still held by Andy Wilkinson (1991) according to Guinness. Gethin Butler took almost an hour off it in 2001. It was all observed and checked by the same people (RRA) so the RRA records are correct.
It's not just having someone there as witness to satisfy them either, they have their own critria about altitude gain and stuff which would instantly rule out riding on the open road.
If I do it I'll do it because it's something I want to do.

Kajsa showed the Guinness rules pack up on her FB feed at the end of December - it looked pretty daunting!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Tim Hall on January 20, 2016, 02:54:20 pm
I am pleased that UMCA have released that information (is there a link to that? Edit - I see it on their facebook page). It strikes me that they possibly did not release it earlier out of respect for Bruce. Now they have, he does appear to be the twuntish one.

Such a shame to see an attempt go to waste over such minor issues as paying a $35 membership fee and buying a £200-250 (including the annual fee) tracker.

No matter what he does now, he will only ever be a footnote in the second edition of Citizenfish's book.

It is very sad.  The guy clearly has the contacts to get hold of £5k+ bikes from canyon etc., but can't/won't pay out modest sums to become compliant with the requirements.

What a mess.

<not entirely serious> From what I read elsewhere, if he can get any sort of bike out of Canyon, he's got superhuman powers</not entirely serious>
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on January 20, 2016, 03:16:30 pm
<not entirely serious> From what I read elsewhere, if he can get any sort of bike out of Canyon, he's got superhuman powers</not entirely serious>

Indeed.  I was toying with the idea of buying a new piece of bling but was put off Canyon by the stories of 6-month waits or longer.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jurek on January 20, 2016, 03:30:16 pm
<not entirely serious> From what I read elsewhere, if he can get any sort of bike out of Canyon, he's got superhuman powers</not entirely serious>

Indeed.  I was toying with the idea of buying a new piece of bling but was put off Canyon by the stories of 6-month waits or longer.
Anecdata time.....
My manager's company credit card (which 6 of us in this office avail ourselves of for the purchase of flights, hotels etc) was compromised last year to the tune of several £K on a spending spree at Canyon. All eyes in the office turned to me at that point.....  ::-)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on January 20, 2016, 03:31:32 pm
<not entirely serious> From what I read elsewhere, if he can get any sort of bike out of Canyon, he's got superhuman powers</not entirely serious>

Indeed.  I was toying with the idea of buying a new piece of bling but was put off Canyon by the stories of 6-month waits or longer.
Anecdata time.....
My manager's company credit card (which 6 of us in this office avail ourselves of for the purchase of flights, hotels etc) was compromised last year to the tune of several £K on a spending spree at Canyon. All eyes in the office turned to me at that point.....

 ;D  With good cause presumably?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jurek on January 20, 2016, 03:36:36 pm
<not entirely serious> From what I read elsewhere, if he can get any sort of bike out of Canyon, he's got superhuman powers</not entirely serious>

Indeed.  I was toying with the idea of buying a new piece of bling but was put off Canyon by the stories of 6-month waits or longer.
Anecdata time.....
My manager's company credit card (which 6 of us in this office avail ourselves of for the purchase of flights, hotels etc) was compromised last year to the tune of several £K on a spending spree at Canyon. All eyes in the office turned to me at that point.....

 ;D  With good cause presumably?

Wholly unjustified IMHO - that's what you get when you're a minority cyclist amongst a workforce whose choice of transport is almost entirely planet-slaying.  ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: teamcinzano on January 20, 2016, 04:03:12 pm
Find My Friends is in no way a tracker or a solution to the validation needs of such a record. Yes, you can locate a person who has shared their location with you (which requires you to share back), and yes it will locate the phone as long as there is cell coverage. Every person following your location has to have an iphone and be in your contacts list. It's ponderous, and it's also not tracking.

That said, the Garmin Connect app has a LiveTrack feature that allows anyone with the link to follow the day's ride, and that track can be shared via twitter. Publicize it at the start of every ride? It's dependent on cell coverage for data, and is pretty data intensive. I would imagine it would end up being more expensive than spot tracking because of the amount of data you'd need every day to broadcast (not to mention battery power you'd need).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 20, 2016, 04:47:55 pm
@ Clarion: I don't think the record keepers will have any problem ignoring Bruce's ride.

The kibitzers are another matter. Should he complete a year's riding in the way that he is, with no support, not even for meals and mechanicals, and come close to Kurt/Tommy/Steve's achievements, it will stand alone as a testament to something or other, and for that it will be remembered.

Edit: 41 new replies have been posted.

PS. It as been said above that it would be "easy" to falsify a .gpx file. That's true, but I think it would be quite hard to falsify one convincingly.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2016, 05:16:27 pm
PS. It as been said above that it would be "easy" to falsify a .gpx file. That's true, but I think it would be quite hard to falsify one convincingly.

Easy is relative.  I guarantee that I have more chance of convincingly falsifying the GPX tracks than I would of riding 29000 miles in a year.

Think about it:  You cook up some software to generate pseudorandom tracks (complete with HR data that mimics your own under similar conditions) on pre-determined routes.  Then spend a while hand-crafting some routes, complete with weather fudge-factor, random stoppages, deviations for hedge inspections and so on.  Probably day-by day to allow for real-world conditions.

It's work, but a couple of orders of magnitude less work than going out and riding it all would be.

Of course for authenticity you want to be seen to do some actual riding.  So your algorithm needs to be reasonably consistent with the real data generated by that (or your riding needs to be consistent with the fake data generated by your software).  Which means you need plenty of testing, and a database of equivalent style rides to work with.  It's not something you'd hack up the week before the attempt and expect to work.

Live tracking is harder.  To fake it convincingly you need to use a commercial system like SPOT that won't arouse suspicion, which probably means reverse-engineering their hardware to inject your fake GPS signal.  Doable, I'm sure, but that means more dev time.

And you need to not be caught out by being provably somewhere else when you're supposed to be slogging into the fenland hair-drier or depleting the Marsh Gibbon Premier Inn of CAKE reserves.  That's not trivial, and combined with the above probably represents a similar level of commitment to actually going out and riding the thing.


The question is: Why bother?  As a hacking exercise, to show that it can be done, sure.  But it's effort that would better be put into, say, developing a more secure tracking system.  To convince the world that you've beaten a record, and then keep schtum?  Where's the glory in that?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 20, 2016, 05:24:47 pm
Began
Record
Until
Clerical
Error

But
Every
Rider
Knows
Entering
Late
Excludes
You

AKA

Crumbs,
You
Cocky
Late
Entering

Device
Refusing

1
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: SoreTween on January 20, 2016, 05:30:08 pm
Further to Kim post with which I entirely agree it ought to be easier to fake power readings than HR. OTOH fake power might be easier to spot.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 06:02:10 pm
PS. It as been said above that it would be "easy" to falsify a .gpx file. That's true, but I think it would be quite hard to falsify one convincingly.

Easy is relative.  I guarantee that I have more chance of convincingly falsifying the GPX tracks than I would of riding 29000 miles in a year.

Think about it:  You cook up some software to generate pseudorandom tracks (complete with HR data that mimics your own under similar conditions) on pre-determined routes.  Then spend a while hand-crafting some routes, complete with weather fudge-factor, random stoppages, deviations for hedge inspections and so on.  Probably day-by day to allow for real-world conditions.

It's work, but a couple of orders of magnitude less work than going out and riding it all would be.

I love the theory of this (faking rides) and it's something I've thought about quite a bit in the past.

It's a lot easier if you ride, say, 5000 miles at your leisure, and use that as the basis for the subsequent forgeries. Just need to chop and change sections of the routes in and out to vary things, move the random stops about as you say (and adjust HR accordingly), add in small bits of randomness to each lat/lon point, run sections/segments slightly faster (interpolating new intermediate trackpoints to maintain the 1 second recording interval aspect), adjusting for headwinds, etc, etc.

Of course for authenticity you want to be seen to do some actual riding.  So your algorithm needs to be reasonably consistent with the real data generated by that (or your riding needs to be consistent with the fake data generated by your software).  Which means you need plenty of testing, and a database of equivalent style rides to work with.  It's not something you'd hack up the week before the attempt and expect to work.

Indeed, but Strava contains an enormous database of equivalent style rides you can steal from, many including power, cadence and HR data. And the data can be extracted from the "Analysis" page for any individual ride (but it's not per second any more). You just have to rebase the figures against a riders HRmin/HRmax and Wmax and interpolate the bits in the middle (which isn't so easy).

Live tracking is harder.  To fake it convincingly you need to use a commercial system like SPOT that won't arouse suspicion, which probably means reverse-engineering their hardware to inject your fake GPS signal.  Doable, I'm sure, but that means more dev time.

Someone somewhere demonstrated a relatively cheap (I think it was <$500) hack to fake the GPS signals from the satellites themselves (you just need to send something at a higher power to override them, it's still milliwatts) to a localised device (both SPOT tracker and a Garmin) to do that job for you. Come up with the GPX file and use that to drive the live trackers for the day whilst you work on tomorrow's forgeries (and your ever accruing guilt and hatred for yourself).

And you need to not be caught out by being provably somewhere else when you're supposed to be slogging into the fenland hair-drier or depleting the Marsh Gibbon Premier Inn of CAKE reserves.  That's not trivial, and combined with the above probably represents a similar level of commitment to actually going out and riding the thing.

Which is why they also required video/photo evidence from each day. That's an annoyance to have to fake. And not being spotted where you should have been is a big problem. But if you were riding one out of every 2 days (and faking the other day) you might get away with it I suppose if you were lucky.

The question is: Why bother?  As a hacking exercise, to show that it can be done, sure.  But it's effort that would better be put into, say, developing a more secure tracking system.  To convince the world that you've beaten a record, and then keep schtum?  Where's the glory in that?

The Spark Nano device (pointed out by someone else here) provides cryptographically signed GPS tracklogs, but if you're faking the GPS signals themselves it might be easily duped (depends on whether they log details of the inbound satellite signals in which case they could be compared to what was broadcast and received elsewhere).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 06:06:13 pm
Further to Kim post with which I entirely agree it ought to be easier to fake power readings than HR. OTOH fake power might be easier to spot.

If something is easier to spot then it's easier to fake, you just have to try lots of different fake values until you get something that doesn't look fake.

Having looked at all of this in the past I can say it's much easier to fake HR data than power data, but you'd not want to do either of them.

Taking a GPX file (of a route) with no timing, power, HR or cadence data and trying to add that data convincingly is hard. Time (hence speed) is easiest, then cadence, then HR, with power most difficult.

But you wouldn't do that, you'd work from a corpus of real data files and chop/change those around to create new and unique files.

Anyway, maybe this sub-discussion needs to be split off from Bruce's thread. I wouldn't want anyone to get any suggestion that Bruce could be involved in anything like this.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2016, 06:08:55 pm
Anyway, maybe this sub-discussion needs to be split off from Bruce's thread. I wouldn't want anyone to get any suggestion that Bruce could be involved in anything like this.

Agreed.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 20, 2016, 06:45:36 pm
Anyway, maybe this sub-discussion needs to be split off from Bruce's thread. I wouldn't want anyone to get any suggestion that Bruce could be involved in anything like this.

Agreed.

Absolutely, discussions exactly like this one have caused "issues" in the past. Fingers have been pointed and threats have been made.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rafletcher on January 20, 2016, 06:47:30 pm
But "issues" with ratifying bodies I assume.  Which isn't an issue here.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 07:14:21 pm
I think that misses the point.  Fanbase = observers = verification.

My point was that he refers to the ultracycling fanbase. The UMCA is a bit of a latecomer to the field of long-distance cycling. There's no reason for it to be seen as the sole arbiter.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 20, 2016, 07:22:52 pm
I think that misses the point.  Fanbase = observers = verification.

My point was that he refers to the ultracycling fanbase. The UMCA is a bit of a latecomer to the field of long-distance cycling. There's no reason for it to be seen as the sole arbiter.
Who do you suggest as an alternative?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 07:52:14 pm
I think that misses the point.  Fanbase = observers = verification.

My point was that he refers to the ultracycling fanbase. The UMCA is a bit of a latecomer to the field of long-distance cycling. There's no reason for it to be seen as the sole arbiter.
Who do you suggest as an alternative?


I'm not sure there needs to be one. Steve's Audax record was accepted with the usual proof, which is essentially the same as Tommy Godwin's.

Although there's some overlap between the UMCA and RUSA, as there's a crossover between AUK, CTT and RRA, the HAMR's position under the Audax board becomes moot at some point.

Perhaps someone would like to stick their neck out and start a records board where Strava tracks can be debated and pronounced on.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 08:04:49 pm
I think that misses the point.  Fanbase = observers = verification.

My point was that he refers to the ultracycling fanbase. The UMCA is a bit of a latecomer to the field of long-distance cycling. There's no reason for it to be seen as the sole arbiter.
Who do you suggest as an alternative?


I'm not sure there needs to be one. Steve's Audax record was accepted with the usual proof, which is essentially the same as Tommy Godwin's.

Hmm. For the Audax record Steve would have ridden at least half of the distance with many others on calendar events. For the rest he was collecting a wide variety of receipts.

I'm not sure how often Tommy's witnesses were written to to ask for verification but I'm sure Cycling did a fair bit of checking.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 20, 2016, 08:09:13 pm
Steve's 405 point year was virtually all from perms, deliberately so as he was making a point about the 50% rule. Somebody else (Peter T?) won the championship that year.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 08:14:51 pm
Ah yes, I'll try and claim I was talking about his record in '96 then.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 08:17:41 pm
Cycling ran a list of Mileaters every year. Tommy's record was part of that. It's difficult to know how much proof was presented all these years later. Cycling would have been fairly accommodating to their principal advertiser, in terms of special validation, and the details would have made good copy.
The Mileater lives on in AUK. Hoppo was the champion in 2005. http://audax.dotadmin.com/mileater
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 20, 2016, 10:09:19 pm
More Bruce

http://road.cc/content/news/175956-bruce-berkeley-says-guinness-world-records-certifying-his-year-record-attempt
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 10:29:27 pm
Thanks danridesbikes, some interesting bits:-

Quote
There is a widespread misconception – and we will hold our hands up and acknowledge that it is one that we at road.cc have on occasion repeated – that Guinness World Records would not recognise a fresh attempt on Godwin’s record because of the physical demands involved.

But as Abraham says in this post [http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/tommy-godwin] on his website, that is a “myth.”

And...

Quote
Berkeley is already a holder of two Guinness World Records – for the greatest distances cycled in a week and in a month, set respectively in 2014 and 2015.

And...

Quote
We have spoken to Guinness World Records to seek confirmation that they are indeed certifying Berkeley’s record attempt with effect from 1 January 2016, and will update this story once we have their response.

Hopefully they'll also ask for confirmation of his week and month world records since Guinness don't seem to list them.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 20, 2016, 10:47:16 pm
I think he's living in fantasy land if he thinks Guinness will ratify his first three weeks.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on January 20, 2016, 10:57:17 pm
They only need to ratify his next fifty two that's all.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 20, 2016, 11:00:53 pm
Guinness recognise Godwin's effort: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/greatest-distance-cycled-in-a-year and that certainly had some drafting.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Deano on January 20, 2016, 11:08:41 pm
ridiculous set of rules from Guinness

That is quite wonderful. Is that the set of rules Bruce will now be riding to? ;D

I wish him well, and regardless of who ratifies his rides (if anyone does), he has enlivened this whole challenge.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 11:15:46 pm
Janet Davison rode through July last year, announced to the press that she was awaiting ratification in September, and now she's listed as the month record holder. It doesn't seem to be that onerous.
Bruce rode his month last January to lots of Strava kudos.

Road cc should be talking to Janet Davison.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 12:02:52 am
Yes, according to Guinness it's Davidson that's the record holder.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month

Maybe someone would like to comment on the road.cc article to that effect?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 12:08:35 am
Bruce rode his month last January to lots of Strava kudos.

He does seem overly fixated on "Strava kudos".

How can he claim to hold the Guinness Records for the week and month when there is no evidence this is the case? Is it just pure bluster? Or is this another case of "admin problems" at the certifying organisation?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on January 21, 2016, 12:21:27 am
Cannot see no mention of this elsewhere here, apologies if already posted:-

A full report on the Disqualification of Bruce Berkeley from the UMCA HAMR attempt started on January 1, 2016

We have been asked by many for the full reasoning behind our disqualification of Bruce Berkely's record attempt. Our records chair has prepared the following complete accounting. Please note that by using the Spot Tracker and GPS with Heart Rate Monitor we have been able to identify errors in reporting and get them corrected. The accounting of mileage for such an endeavor is no small task. It is our records chair's job to make sure he gets what he needs. What follows is the full report, including emails between Bruce and Drew and other members of the UMCA Board of Directors. Email addresses are redacted:

1. Dec 30: Bruce Berkeley was notified that he needed to get Spot tracker; reasons in the following email. Bruce had previously selected a live tracker that was inadequate. Anyone who wanted to track him had to first submit a request and wait for it to be approved before tracking was enabled. Given that Bruce (or any HAM’R rider) might not be able to approve such a request for several days make this entirely unacceptable. Rules do give this authority to the Records Chairman.
From the Rules for Record Attempts:
Riders will be required to have an active live tracking device in operation for all mileage to be credited for the attempt. In addition, riders will have a trip recording device (such as a Garmin) that will record the route taken, speed, elevation/gradient and at least one of heart rate or power. Riders will be responsible for carrying backup batteries to power whatever device/app we decide upon. The devices used will be subject to the approval of the Records Chairman.

Dear Bruce,

You definitely need to get the Spot tracker for the following reasons.
1. Spot will allow open access. Any neutral observer can go to the Spot website and track your rides, as opposed to the Find My Friends app which requires a friend request to be approved. Spot will serve the fan base of ultracycling as well as serve you better; once your attempt begins, you do not need to spend any time approving friend requests for the live tracker, nor should the ultracycling fan base need to wait for approval. Even as simple as the process may be, we do not want to deter observers in the least.

2. Spot leaves a trail. I do not know if Find My Friends does or not; I think not. What I mean is this: I can go to Spot for days AFTER one of your rides and see where you were at any selected time. On occasion during the past year, I was able to use this feature to reconstruct a ride for which Strava/Garmin had a glitch.

3. Use of Find My Friends virtually guarantees your will lose miles when Strava has a glitch (because it is a near certainty that Strava will have one or more glitches during your year of riding).

As soon as you sign up for Spot, please see me a link to one of your rides. Thanks.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

2. Jan 2: Bruce is notified that he has not become member of UMCA, as is required by the rules. At this point, I was willing to treat this as a misunderstanding (no penalty or warning) but only if prompt corrective action were taken.
On 2 Jan 2016, at 13:58, Drew Clark wrote:

Dear Bruce,

It has been brought to my attention that you have not yet enrolled as a member of UMCA. You must do so immediately.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

3. Jan 2: Bruce promises prompt action.
On Jan 2, 2016, at 2:43 AM, Bruce Berkeley wrote:

Drew

Was this not included? This is the first I have know about this! I'm 2 days in and pretty tired tonight, so probably won't get it sorted this evening.

I will sort as soon as I get a chance.

Been getting some serious interest on Strava, nearly 1000 likes on yesterday's ride! Massive

Bruce

4. Jan 2: Drew Clark affirms membership requirement.
January 2, 2016
Dear Bruce,

The rules clearly require UMCA membership for a record attempt.
An application for a record attempt is entirely separate from membership.
You do need to do this immediately. It takes about 5 minutes.
If not, adherents to Steven Abraham and Kurt Searvogel may well challenge your mileage.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

5. Jan 4: Drew Clark again affirms membership requirement.
January 4, 2015
Dear Bruce,

I have not heard back from you yet regarding membership in UMCA.

I understand that you thought membership was part of the application fee; it is not.
I am willing to allow for the misunderstanding, but only up to the point where you were notified of the problem.

I wrote on January 2:
The rules clearly require UMCA membership for a record attempt.
An application for a record attempt is entirely separate from membership.
You do need to do this immediately. It takes about 5 minutes.
If not, adherents to Steven Abraham and Kurt Searvogel may well challenge your mileage.

Paul Carpenter (who is copied on this email) handles membership and can help you with any issue on that front and he will notify me as soon as you join.

UMCA will not post any official data for your attempt until this is accomplished.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

6. Jan 4: Paul Carpenter, President of UMCA, offers to help Bruce complete his membership process. This email was also sent to Bruce.
January 4, 2016

Please let me know if I can help Bruce. Basic membership is $35 and can be paid through the on line store.

http://ultracycling.com/store/index.php…

Paul.

7. Jan 5: Paul Carpenter, President of UMCA, again offers to help Bruce complete his membership process. This email was also sent to Bruce.
January 5, 2016
Paul Carpenter again offered help to Bruce
Hi Bruce,

If you use the link I included in the email you can use PayPal to pay when you checkout of the store.

Paul.

8. Jan 5: Bruce replied, promising to complete the membership process “in the morning."
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:06 AM, Bruce Berkeley wrote:
Hi Drew/Paul

I will sort the payment for the membership in the morning. Can I pay it with PayPal? Just a quick one though Drew, this was an error at your end not informing me that I had to pay the membership fee as well, so I was under the impression it was all sorted! So apologies for this, but would appreciate if you could work with me here! I have started the attempt and I do not have a lot of time at the end of the day.

Thanks and I'll send the payment in the morning

Bruce

9. Jan 5: Drew Clark replied on the same day. Please note that Bruce was strongly urged (again) to enlist crew to help prevent exactly the kind of situation that ultimately resulted. Bruce declined to utilize ANY crew.(Note: Because HAM’R riders are not required to use a follow vehicle, no crew was required in the past. This will be rectified by a new HAM’R rule that will require a HAM’R rider to have at least one crew designated to handle communication in the future.)
January 5, 2016
Dear Bruce,

Great! I look forward to getting you fully into HAM’R.

Please be aware that you still also need to sign up for Spot tracker, per my previous email, pasted here for reference:
You definitely need to get the Spot tracker for the following reasons.
1. Spot will allow open access. Any neutral observer can go to the Spot website and track your rides, as opposed to the Find My Friends app which requires a friend request to be approved. Spot will serve the fan base of ultracycling better as well as serve you better; once your attempt begins, you do not need to spend any time approving friend requests for the live tracker, nor should the ultracycling fan base need to wait for approval. Even as simple as the process may be, we do not want to deter observers in the least.

2. Spot leaves trail. I do not know if Find My Friends does or not; I think not. What I mean is this: I can go to Spot for days AFTER one of your rides and see where you were at any selected time. On occasion during the past year, I was able to use this feature to reconstruct a ride for which Strava/Garmin had a glitch.

3. Use of Find My Friends virtually guarantees your will lose miles when Strava has a glitch (because it is a near certainty that Strava will have one or more glitches during your year of riding).

As soon as you sign up for Spot, please send me a link to one of your rides. Thanks.

You wrote: "but would appreciate if you could work with me here!"
I will be delighted to work with you. Per the rules, the Records Chairman (me) is your official-of-record for your HAM’R attempt. I will spend many hours this year compiling documentation for your attempt. I will even spend more out-of-pocket to create and preserve this documentation than your membership will cost. I am not paid for my work for UMCA; this is purely voluntary. As your official, I am rooting for you to succeed. But a big part of the role of the official is to build a "defensible wall” around your attempt so that your efforts can survive a challenge. I have already received queries about your live tracker (or absence thereof).

If anyone files an actual complaint or challenge, your attempt may be subject to penalties as prescribed in the rules, which could range from warning to a loss or miles.

So, please complete the membership application ASAP and also the Spot tracker.

I will again urge you to enlist crew persons to assist you. I know you prefer to go it alone, but this approach will likely cost you time and maybe miles. Crew persons can perform many time-saving tasks for you such as: answering communications, fetching bicycle parts in case of unexpected breakdowns, and many other tasks. I know Steven Abraham and Kurt Searvogel did effectively use support crew for many such things. Enlisting crew will not be required of you, but it it s certainly recommended.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

10. Jan 9: Drew Clark notified Paul Carpenter and Doug Hoffman of noncompliance by Bruce, though both were previously aware of the situation.
January 9, 2016
Dear Paul and Doug,

We have a problem with Bruce Berkely. After promising on Jan 5 to make membership payment on Jan 6, I have received no confirmation of his having done so.
Have either of you seen anything from him?

Nor is he complaint with his live tracker.

But he is riding and has thousands of followers.

I have to issue a warning, a penalty, or a DQ. I have some latitude, but in my opinion, he has gone past a mere warning already.
I am thinking along these lines: a) A penalty of loss of miles, or b) no miles count until he is compliant (essentially a restart on new date), or c) DQ

Any thoughts before I do so?

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

11. Jan 10: Official warning issued to Bruce.
January 10, 2016
Dear Bruce,

The purpose is twofold:
1. We do encourage you to continue your effort and want to work with you.

2. This is an official warning that you’re out of compliance with UMCA rules for a HAM’R attempt, specifically a) No UMCA membership and b ) No Spot tracker
This is serious enough that if you need to take time off from riding, you should do so.

If you need help to attain either of these, please let us know immediately. Paul can help with membership. I can re-send info for the Spot tracker.

More severe consequences will follow very rapidly. These include loss of miles or a restart or DQ.

Notes: You were first notified on Jan 2 about the membership issue. Your response was: "I will sort as soon as I get a chance.”
You were reminded again on January 5. You promised: "Thanks and I'll send the payment in the morning.”

It is now January 10, and no action has been taken.
Please respond immediately with action.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

12. Jan 16: After six more days of no action by Bruce and no communication from Bruce, he is disqualified.
January 16, 2016
Dear Bruce,

This is official notice that your HAM’R attempt is officially over.
You are not in compliance with UMCA rules for your HAM’R attempt.
Despite repeated chances and repeated warnings, you were not in compliance when you started and never accepted our offer to become compliant.

Best wishes if you continue riding, but none of your mileage will be certified by UMCA.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

13. Jan 17: Bruce finally replies, with two emails in succession
January 17, 2016
Hi Drew

Thanks for the email, pretty shocked with the content. To give me an official warning seems pretty over the top. Surely that should relate to some form of bending the rules, this is not something I have done.

1. I am sorry I have been riding every day as you can no doubt see, and forgot to make the payment.
2. I looked into the spot tracking and simply do not have the funds to spend more money on this option. I sent you a option that does provide live tracking and it would do the job required. It does not say on your website that I have to use a specific brand of live tracking, simply that I must have live tracking. I think I have not breached any rules here either.

As a result of the email and the issues we are having I have left the group and I no longer want you to officiate on my record attempt, as a result of this can you please refund my payment, less an Admin fee, as I will now use Guinness to verify my attempt.

I can do without the extra agro that I am getting at the end of very long and hard days in the saddle. I would have thought you guys would understand this better than anyone as you officiate on these distance records. I expected to work with you guys, not be treated like I am doing something wrong.

Please advise me when the refund has been processed.

Bruce

Drew

I hope you got my last email! This is not on!! You have tarnished my reputation and not done anything to help me out here! I now hear I have been disqualified!? I do not want your organisation involved in my record attempt! You are overly officious and did nothing to understand or help me out!

I expect a full refund and have raised a claim with PayPal regards the fee!

I am annoyed that I ever got you involved with this challenge!

Please advise about the refund

Bruce

14. Jan 17: Bruce files a “buyer complaint” with Paypal. It is interesting that he did not have time to pay for his membership, but did have time to file a buyer complaint.
January 17, 2016
From Mark Newsome:
FYI -- Seems that Bruce (David?) Berkeley is seeking a refund of his record attempt fees. (The site receives notifications of PayPal activity.) Looks like he's filed a "buyer complaint" (see text below).

Whomever manages our PayPal account should see the message from PayPal...

--Mark

15. Jan 17: Decision regarding a refund to Bruce
From the Rules of Record Attempts:
"Fees are non-refundable, non-transferable, and cannot be applied toward other future record attempts. In other words, once you submit your fee, you are indicating your intention to make the attempt."

As Records Chairman, my job is to uphold the rules. The Rules state that the application fee is not refundable, so I cannot authorize that. But the Board does have authority to freely male whatever decision they wish regarding a refund.

Drew Clark, UMCA Records

16. Jan19, 2016: UMCA Board approves a full refund (no admin fee taken) to Bruce Berkeley even though the rules clearly state that the application fee is non-refundable, as a gesture of good will towards Bruce. The UMCA Board wishes Bruce Berkeley well in his attempt, but UMCA will not certify the attempt and will not verify mileage for the attempt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Oaky on January 21, 2016, 12:22:18 am
Yes, according to Guinness it's Davidson that's the record holder.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month

Maybe someone would like to comment on the road.cc article to that effect?

It's stuff like the image below (not the record mentioned above, but "static cycling"  ??? ) that make me respect the Guinness records verification mechanism so much (especially the panel of images of other records that take up most of the screen space)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 12:26:50 am
No-one knows how volatile internet media are. Strava kudos may evaporate at some point, and the record books will live on.
I'm surprised that there's no Pathe News footage of Tommy Godwin. They seemed fixated on women professionals, so Eileen Sheridan puts in a couple of appearances, most memorably in this piece. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/housewife-cyclist/query/Eileen+Sheridan
Place to Place records became unfashionable for most. I still like them, and Eileen still has a few, 60 years later.

http://www.rra.org.uk/records%20place%20to%20place.html
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Oaky on January 21, 2016, 12:27:35 am
Cannot see no mention of this elsewhere here, apologies if already posted:-

<snip>.

Haven't read all of the above to see if it's new, but most of it would seem to be here on this very thread (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93962.msg1976792#msg1976792)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 01:55:16 am
Yes, according to Guinness it's Davidson that's the record holder.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month

Maybe someone would like to comment on the road.cc article to that effect?

It's Davison, and it was done yesterday.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 21, 2016, 06:57:45 am
No-one knows how volatile internet media are. Strava kudos may evaporate at some point, and the record books will live on.
I'm surprised that there's no Pathe News footage of Tommy Godwin. They seemed fixated on women professionals, so Eileen Sheridan puts in a couple of appearances, most memorably in this piece. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/housewife-cyclist/query/Eileen+Sheridan
Place to Place records became unfashionable for most. I still like them, and Eileen still has a few, 60 years later.

http://www.rra.org.uk/records%20place%20to%20place.html
I love the voice over on the news reel "No wonder she wins races, she has to get back and catch up with the house work."

Ah the past was a different country. They did things differently there.

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 07:16:52 am
Yes, according to Guinness it's Davidson that's the record holder.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month

Maybe someone would like to comment on the road.cc article to that effect?

It's Davison, and it was done yesterday.

I didn't mean on here, I meant on road.cc - just in case its readership is under the illusion that Bruce officially holds any records (even if, unofficially, unverified, he would appear to do so). I'm not registered there or I'd have done it myself...  ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 09:44:32 am
Yes, it was done on Road.cc yesterday by both me and Aidan on different threads.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 09:44:42 am
No-one knows how volatile internet media are. Strava kudos may evaporate at some point, and the record books will live on.
I'm surprised that there's no Pathe News footage of Tommy Godwin. They seemed fixated on women professionals, so Eileen Sheridan puts in a couple of appearances, most memorably in this piece. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/housewife-cyclist/query/Eileen+Sheridan
Place to Place records became unfashionable for most. I still like them, and Eileen still has a few, 60 years later.

http://www.rra.org.uk/records%20place%20to%20place.html

Yes, these records, while they may seem 'parochial' in comparison to the globe trotting antics celebrated in the media nowadays, are still impressive. Plenty of scope for female riders to take on some challenges I would think... Maybe some fast audaxers or triathletes who would take on the male solo records too? (Don't look at me BTW  ;D)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 09:45:50 am
Yes, it was done on Road.cc yesterday by both me and Aidan on different threads.

Aidan's has only just appeared: heavy comment moderation?

Which thread does yours appear in? Can't see any sign of it...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 09:47:37 am
Aidan's was visible to me at 2 am this morning. Mine was on the thread that reported Bruce's DQ by UMCA.

Edit: 2 posts on this thread (http://road.cc/content/news/175539-bruce-berkeley-disqualified-year-record-attempt)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 09:51:20 am
Aidan's appears under that article, posted 2 hours ago apparently. If yours is there too, it doesn't mention Davison nor Bruce's lack of any public verification of "his" records...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: PeeJay on January 21, 2016, 09:55:14 am
Guinness are now certifying Bruce's year record attempt

http://road.cc/content/news/175956-bruce-berkeley-says-guinness-world-records-certifying-his-year-record-attempt

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 09:55:22 am
Aidan's appears under that article, posted 2 hours ago apparently. If yours is there too, it doesn't mention Davison nor Bruce's lack of any public verification of "his" records...

Yes, it does. See the link above. Aidan's is in the thread that reports Bruce's attempt being under Guinness mine is, as I said, on the thread that reports his DQ by UMCA. They are different threads
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 10:07:12 am
Aidan's appears under that article, posted 2 hours ago apparently. If yours is there too, it doesn't mention Davison nor Bruce's lack of any public verification of "his" records...

Yes, it does. See the link above. Aidan's is in the thread that reports Bruce's attempt being under Guinness mine is, as I said, on the thread that reports his DQ by UMCA. They are different threads

Okay, gotcha. Good that some are attempting to set "the record" straight!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on January 21, 2016, 10:12:38 am
Guinness are now certifying Bruce's year record attempt

http://road.cc/content/news/175956-bruce-berkeley-says-guinness-world-records-certifying-his-year-record-attempt

I think I might wait to see what Guinness say
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: DaveE128 on January 21, 2016, 10:14:04 am
Indeed. I am a bit baffled about how Guinness could be verifying his attempt given that for Kajsa's attempt, no drafting is allowed. (I think?) Bruce has posted plenty of pictures of drafting pro teams. Surely this means a restart then? I wonder whether he has looked into the Guinness rules any better than he did the UMCA rules?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rafletcher on January 21, 2016, 10:17:58 am
no drafting is allowed. (I think?)

Correct.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aidan on January 21, 2016, 10:22:44 am
I commented under the article because it states specifically that Bruce holds two records.  But that doesnt seem to be the case, although happy to be shown it is. 
I believe quite strongly (surprisingly so!)  that any record needs to be properly ratified.   In the schem of things it doesnt affect me as I am somewhat unlikely to be a challenger here  ;D

But I've supported Steve, and was rooting for Kurt, certainly in the second half of his record breaking ride. I think it unfair that just because the rules dont suit Bruce it looks like he will ride and claim a record anyway.  If I was Kurt or Steve or anyone else doing it "properly"  I'd be mighty pissed off with that.

As I said elsewhere, Bruces current riding is no more than a long bike ride its not a record attempt.  Strava Kudos and followers count for nothing much.

Will be interesting to see what Guinness actually say, only word I can see so far is Bruce saying they are ratifying, but if he cant adhere to UMCA  rules I cant see he'll stick to Guinnesss either.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 10:33:23 am
The suggested rules posted above from Guinness were clearly just a rehash of what they use for people doing records such as the fastest 250m, 400m and other "short" records (including up to the hour or even the recent female 24 hour record) and unless done on a velodrome track they're prohibitively insane. Hence all the guff about being videod (preferably from a static place), perfectly flat or anything more than 1:1000 must be done uphill, witnesses, timekeepers, etc. Someone really didn't think when they sent those out (including the leap year issue as pointed out by mrcharly) for a year long record.

There's no way that those were the stipulations used for, say, Beaumont's Round the World record. So I'd expect there to be something a little more sane.

Someone said that Kasja may have posted the Guinness info pack on her site or blog somewhere, haven't had a chance to check. That may contain the answers to some of the questions here rather than constant speculation.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 10:47:25 am
Indeed. I am a bit baffled about how Guinness could be verifying his attempt given that for Kajsa's attempt, no drafting is allowed. (I think?) Bruce has posted plenty of pictures of drafting pro teams. Surely this means a restart then? I wonder whether he has looked into the Guinness rules any better than he did the UMCA rules?

If Bruce has indeed secured oversight from Guinness - and given the non-appearance of his other Guinness 'records', I'm dubious - I imagine he will have to start again as nothing he's done so far will count under their rules. If he's prepared to do it for Guinness, why not UMCA?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 10:48:47 am
Someone said that Kasja may have posted the Guinness info pack on her site or blog somewhere, haven't had a chance to check. That may contain the answers to some of the questions here rather than constant speculation.

She posted a picture of the pack, not its contents (I think it was 36 pages long!). However, I'm quite sure she negotiated a far more practical system of oversight than the rules we've seen on this thread.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 10:50:50 am
No-one knows how volatile internet media are. Strava kudos may evaporate at some point, and the record books will live on.
I'm surprised that there's no Pathe News footage of Tommy Godwin. They seemed fixated on women professionals, so Eileen Sheridan puts in a couple of appearances, most memorably in this piece. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/housewife-cyclist/query/Eileen+Sheridan
Place to Place records became unfashionable for most. I still like them, and Eileen still has a few, 60 years later.

http://www.rra.org.uk/records%20place%20to%20place.html

Yes, these records, while they may seem 'parochial' in comparison to the globe trotting antics celebrated in the media nowadays, are still impressive. Plenty of scope for female riders to take on some challenges I would think... Maybe some fast audaxers or triathletes who would take on the male solo records too? (Don't look at me BTW  ;D)


These are the records that get reported in the papers, as when James Cracknell had a couple of attempts at the LEJOG. The Daily Mirror reported the new tandem record last year, under 'Weird News', which is the heading Steve was under. It seems to be where they put world records.  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/british-pair-smash-tandem-world-5654858

Bruce had a couple of attempts at the LEJOGLE, which lacks RRA status and is a bit of a 'Look at Me' record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 11:22:05 am
We have actually debated many of these points before, in a thread about Hoppo's LEJOGLE attempts. Reading the whole thread is interesting in the light of what's happened. It's only three pages.

It's been pointed out that he'd have done rather better to start at JOG!  If this were an RRA record, he'd have been allowed to start at any point on the route.  I don't know what Guinness say about doing that.   

Thinking about it, I think Ben Rockett just turned up, rode and then claimed to have the record, rather than getting it validated by Guinness.  Does this mean that Hoppo could claim to be the Guinness record holder even if he finishes in over 5 days 21 hours?

Possibly.
I have heard that Guinness now charge £1000 per record claim.
I did check the LE-JOG record in a Guinness Book of Records after Gethin Butler's record ride in 2001. It was talking about that ride with people who were involved when I heard of the £1000 fee. When I checked the book, it still had Wilko's ride as the record.
Hoppo seems to be very good at gaining sponsorship.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=70176.25

The Ben Rockett record is listed on Wikipedia. Does anyone know how it was validated? There's a book, which is inspiring, apparently. http://www.rockettrides.com/?page_id=1270

Hoppo made it known that his attempts were officially sanctioned.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 11:58:29 am
No-one knows how volatile internet media are. Strava kudos may evaporate at some point, and the record books will live on.
I'm surprised that there's no Pathe News footage of Tommy Godwin. They seemed fixated on women professionals, so Eileen Sheridan puts in a couple of appearances, most memorably in this piece. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/housewife-cyclist/query/Eileen+Sheridan
Place to Place records became unfashionable for most. I still like them, and Eileen still has a few, 60 years later.

http://www.rra.org.uk/records%20place%20to%20place.html

Yes, these records, while they may seem 'parochial' in comparison to the globe trotting antics celebrated in the media nowadays, are still impressive. Plenty of scope for female riders to take on some challenges I would think... Maybe some fast audaxers or triathletes who would take on the male solo records too? (Don't look at me BTW  ;D)


These are the records that get reported in the papers, as when James Cracknell had a couple of attempts at the LEJOG. The Daily Mirror reported the new tandem record last year, under 'Weird News', which is the heading Steve was under. It seems to be where they put world records.  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/british-pair-smash-tandem-world-5654858

Bruce had a couple of attempts at the LEJOGLE, which lacks RRA status and is a bit of a 'Look at Me' record.

Bruce's records all seem to have an element of that. Maybe he thinks that in today's "attention economy", getting eyeballs on cycling web site reports / Strava is all that matters?

It is rather curious his attitude towards bodies who would verify his attempts so they become actual records rather than just alleged world beating triumphs (according to Bruce and a few poorly researched articles).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Andydauddwr on January 21, 2016, 12:06:04 pm
From Bruce's FB:

Hi everyone – I felt that you were all due an explanation of the issues I have had with HAMR and the ‘official’ record status.
Firstly, I would like to thank all of you for your on-going support. It really gives me energy to keep pushing. Thank you. Thanks also to my sponsors who have been great in helping me with this record attempt.

Prior to starting the record attempt, I was contacted by a number of people who recommended HAMR but I would need to register with them in order for them to officiate. I wondered as to how that would benefit me as a rider – as I am already being ‘officiated’ by Guinness – who are World renowned with record attempts and validation. However, after some thought, I conceded and explained to HAMR that I would like to join them and appear on their league tables.
At this stage, I was informed that there was a $300 registration fee. It seemed steep, but I paid.
I commenced the record attempt on January 1st. Since then I was contacted by HAMR to explain that I also needed to pay my annual membership fee – another $30. I had assumed this would be covered in the previous payment of $300 – it wasn’t. I was also informed that in addition to my Garmin, I would need to provide a live tracking device. I offered a iPhone based app (Find my Friend) which would enable the organisation to verifiy my Garmin records.
I was informed that this would not be acceptable as they required me to provide a tracking device that ALL MEMBERS of the group could follow. Real time. I was also told that a single piece of technology would acceptable – a further $200
From a personal security perspective, I have a major issue with every single member of the public able to know exactly where I am (more importantly – where I am not) at any time of the day. My living space will be compromised, and there is no ‘Privacy Zone’ setting. I have no issue in any single member of the HAMR organisation using a tracking device for me – but not the general public.
Further to this – I provided an excellent means of doing this, but it was found to be unacceptable. I don’t have the money or the desire to purchase an additional device. I also feel that my $300 should have been sufficient to cover all fees for a self-appointed organisation.
Please also bear in mind that all of this is going on WHILE I am trying to ride 340km a day, with no support. 11-13hrs in the saddle leaves little time for admin or discussion.

As such, I was informed that I had been disqualified by HAMR – ironically, given I had not paid the $30 membership fee, I assume I was never actually registered to be disqualified anyway.

It is a shame – but it takes nothing away from my attempt. I feel that HAMR should be encouraging me, not providing road-blocks.

Thank you for understanding. And for taking the time to read this and also supporting me. It means a lot to me. The attempt will continue with Guinness providing validation.
Tommy Goodwin probably owes HAMR $300 too
wink emoticon


Not saying he's right, but I think there is a rationale there.  Wait and see what Guiness say, I think...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 12:08:11 pm
No-one knows how volatile internet media are. Strava kudos may evaporate at some point, and the record books will live on.
I'm surprised that there's no Pathe News footage of Tommy Godwin. They seemed fixated on women professionals, so Eileen Sheridan puts in a couple of appearances, most memorably in this piece. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/housewife-cyclist/query/Eileen+Sheridan
Place to Place records became unfashionable for most. I still like them, and Eileen still has a few, 60 years later.

http://www.rra.org.uk/records%20place%20to%20place.html

Yes, these records, while they may seem 'parochial' in comparison to the globe trotting antics celebrated in the media nowadays, are still impressive. Plenty of scope for female riders to take on some challenges I would think... Maybe some fast audaxers or triathletes who would take on the male solo records too? (Don't look at me BTW  ;D)


These are the records that get reported in the papers, as when James Cracknell had a couple of attempts at the LEJOG. The Daily Mirror reported the new tandem record last year, under 'Weird News', which is the heading Steve was under. It seems to be where they put world records.  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/british-pair-smash-tandem-world-5654858

Bruce had a couple of attempts at the LEJOGLE, which lacks RRA status and is a bit of a 'Look at Me' record.

Bruce's records all seem to have an element of that. Maybe he thinks that in today's "attention economy", getting eyeballs on cycling web site reports / Strava is all that matters?

It is rather curious his attitude towards bodies who would verify his attempts so they become actual records rather than just alleged world beating triumphs (according to Bruce and a few poorly researched articles).

Yes, all websites are transient. Does anyone remember or care how many likes they had on MySpace, for example? Strava is great - for now, but it'll be supplanted by someone else eventually. Even Guinness won't last for ever, but the credibility of the records held under their name is irrefutable (even if some of the records are bloody silly!). I do hope Bruce does actually get Guinness accreditation, even if it means starting again. He's obviously a very, very strong contender.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 12:15:20 pm
I don't disbelieve Bruce, and I don't disbelieve Ben Rockett's LEJOGLE. The Wiki entry on LEJOG is instructive.

It starts with corporate 'cycling as the new golf'.

Quote
There are several annual mass participation cycle rides that go from Land's End to John O'Groats, the biggest of which is the Deloitte Ride Across Britain,[5] run by Threshold Sports. The Ride Across Britain takes over 800 riders the full length of Britain, taking 9 days and covering 969 miles (1,559 km), with each rider covering an average of 107 miles (172 km) per day. Overnight accommodation is provided in large, tented base camps, and all aspects of the ride are fully supported. Previous celebrity participants include GB rower and Olympic gold medallist James Cracknell and former England Rugby captain Lewis Moody.

The middle section is the real thing, properly observed.

Quote
The official Road Records Association record for rider on a conventional bicycle is 44 hours, 4 minutes and 20 seconds, set by Gethin Butler in 2001.[6] The record for cycling from Land's End to John o' Groats is held by Andy Wilkinson, who completed the journey in 41 hours, 4 minutes and 22 seconds on a Windcheetah recumbent tricycle.[7] A typical cycling time when not attempting shortest time is ten to fourteen days.

Ben Rockett represents the Strava approach.

Quote
Ben Rockett, a postgraduate student from the University of Bath became on 27 August 2010 the record holder for cycling from Land's End to John o' Groats and back again in 5 days, 21 hours and 8 minutes.

Then there's a charity 'Strictly Come Cycling' at the end.

[
Quote
8] From 1 to 4 March 2010, David Walliams, Jimmy Carr, Fearne Cotton, Miranda Hart, Patrick Kielty, Davina McCall and Russell Howard cycled in a team relay from John o' Groats to Land's End to raise money for Sport Relief.[9]

You can take you pick which is your kind of 'End to End'. It's interesting to consider which celebrity you'd sentence to doing the year. Jimmy Saville would have been ideal in his prime. John Bishop today perhaps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land%27s_End_to_John_o%27_Groats#Cycling
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: IanDG on January 21, 2016, 12:17:36 pm
No-one knows how volatile internet media are. Strava kudos may evaporate at some point, and the record books will live on.
I'm surprised that there's no Pathe News footage of Tommy Godwin. They seemed fixated on women professionals, so Eileen Sheridan puts in a couple of appearances, most memorably in this piece. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/housewife-cyclist/query/Eileen+Sheridan
Place to Place records became unfashionable for most. I still like them, and Eileen still has a few, 60 years later.

http://www.rra.org.uk/records%20place%20to%20place.html

Yes, these records, while they may seem 'parochial' in comparison to the globe trotting antics celebrated in the media nowadays, are still impressive. Plenty of scope for female riders to take on some challenges I would think... Maybe some fast audaxers or triathletes who would take on the male solo records too? (Don't look at me BTW  ;D)


These are the records that get reported in the papers, as when James Cracknell had a couple of attempts at the LEJOG. The Daily Mirror reported the new tandem record last year, under 'Weird News', which is the heading Steve was under. It seems to be where they put world records.  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/british-pair-smash-tandem-world-5654858

Bruce had a couple of attempts at the LEJOGLE, which lacks RRA status and is a bit of a 'Look at Me' record.

Or maybe we just go out and ride for a personal challenge? The idea of a DIY audax is relatively new to me (first was in 2013) and getting from Lewis to an event is a rare undertaking, but I've been churning out 200km plus rides around the island since I moved here in 1998 - just for my own enjoyment.

(that attitude for the year record would be 'stretching' it tho')
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 12:21:53 pm
From Bruce's FB:

[...]

Not saying he's right, but I think there is a rationale there.  Wait and see what Guiness say, I think...

FindMyFriends will not provide a retrievable track, just a current position for those who are connected via the Apple infrastructure and individually approved. It's a good system, but unsuitable as an independent verification of a GPS track, I believe. Strava Live Tracking applies to any Premium member, and can be seen by anyone following that athlete, so the security aspect is, at best, debatable (Bruce's Strava account is open to anyone to follow) - and, of course, it uses the same source as the recorded Strava track, so again is probably unacceptable.

I'm still intrigued by the Guinness reference; it would now appear that he already had Guinness validating the attempt before he approached UMCA. Assuming that's for real (and, as his Week and Month 'records' have still not appeared on the Guinness site, I have my doubts), why bother with UMCA?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 12:29:44 pm
FindMyFriends will not provide a retrievable track, just a current position for those who are connected via the Apple infrastructure and individually approved. It's a good system, but unsuitable as an independent verification of a GPS track, I believe. Strava Live Tracking applies to any Premium member, and can be seen by anyone following that athlete, so the security aspect is, at best, debatable (Bruce's Strava account is open to anyone to follow) - and, of course, it uses the same source as the recorded Strava track, so again is probably unacceptable.

The Strava's Active Friends feature should respect his privacy zones though, but it doesn't provide a log, and it's public (hmm, may not be, I can't find it and I'm not a Premium member). I don't think the source being Strava (the same as the recording tool) is a problem. It's the lack of the log that is the main problem (to UMCA) and the lack of privacy (for Bruce).

Bruce also seems unaware that he could turn the SPOT tracker off when not riding, and/or only turn it on when far enough away from his home. It's a bit of a faff though I agree and easily forgotten.

His rides on Garmin Connect are giving away his base location anyway (as he has no privacy zones setup there), but not in real time.

Regardless of the technology used Bruce doesn't want the public to be able to see where is in (near) real time, and I think the UMCA require that. So unless one budges they'll never be able to work it out.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 12:37:20 pm
I'm still intrigued by the Guinness reference; it would now appear that he already had Guinness validating the attempt before he approached UMCA. Assuming that's for real (and, as his Week and Month 'records' have still not appeared on the Guinness site, I have my doubts), why bother with UMCA?

Yeah, interesting that. Maybe he assumed he would beat Kurt and Steve too and thus become the über world record holder?

As to Guinness, until we see some evidence they've verified his prior efforts I remain sceptical. It would however explain his apparent dismissal of UMCA in the correspondence that's been made public.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on January 21, 2016, 12:41:19 pm
As to Guinness, until we see some evidence they've verified his prior efforts I remain sceptical. It would however explain his apparent dismissal of UMCA in the correspondence that's been made public.

Yes, that's the only rational explanation of his current status.  I guess we'll soon find out how rational a person Bruce is!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 21, 2016, 01:02:59 pm
FindMyFriends will not provide a retrievable track, just a current position for those who are connected via the Apple infrastructure and individually approved. It's a good system, but unsuitable as an independent verification of a GPS track, I believe. Strava Live Tracking applies to any Premium member, and can be seen by anyone following that athlete, so the security aspect is, at best, debatable (Bruce's Strava account is open to anyone to follow) - and, of course, it uses the same source as the recorded Strava track, so again is probably unacceptable.

The Strava's Active Friends feature should respect his privacy zones though, but it doesn't provide a log, and it's public (hmm, may not be, I can't find it and I'm not a Premium member). I don't think the source being Strava (the same as the recording tool) is a problem. It's the lack of the log that is the main problem (to UMCA) and the lack of privacy (for Bruce).

Bruce also seems unaware that he could turn the SPOT tracker off when not riding, and/or only turn it on when far enough away from his home. It's a bit of a faff though I agree and easily forgotten.

His rides on Garmin Connect are giving away his base location anyway (as he has no privacy zones setup there), but not in real time.

Regardless of the technology used Bruce doesn't want the public to be able to see where is in (near) real time, and I think the UMCA require that. So unless one budges they'll never be able to work it out.

I have a spot tracker on permanently, it turns off automatically once stationary for 30 mins and auto starts on the next movement. You can set privacy zones on tracking pages you set up, there is no need to involve Trackleaders. The batteries last for up to 2 weeks at 16 hrs a day activity. It's not that difficult.

I'm thinking why not just claim a Guinness world record without any proof it exists except Strava. The on line cycling press are willing to jump in and print it, the general public believe this as gospel and you claim you'r a world record holder.
Like this one http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/yorkshireman-richard-nutt-breaks-world-seven-day-distance-record-175854
Guinness don't seem to contest anyone's claims and their website is not the easiest to navigate to search for lists of record holders.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 01:14:24 pm
The way to test this would be to concoct a 'record' and send out a press release.

Perhaps we could reverse-engineer the whole process by starting with the book and working backwards. We'll need a fightback from alcoholism, and a marital breakdown. Is a recovery from a near-fatal episode going too far?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: fboab on January 21, 2016, 01:18:36 pm
Perhaps we could reverse-engineer the whole process by starting with the book and working backwards. We'll need a fightback from alcoholism, and a marital breakdown. Is a recovery from a near-fatal episode going too far?

Shall we ask Mr Smith?

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 01:25:18 pm
There's always Bikey-Mikey. <non-excellence redacted>

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 03:38:47 pm
Mikey would make a pretty good candidate for some of these shorter records that Bruce has claimed. Seeing if the Audax community could get him through the week or month record would make a good story.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 03:52:22 pm
I have a spot tracker on permanently, it turns off automatically once stationary for 30 mins and auto starts on the next movement. You can set privacy zones on tracking pages you set up, there is no need to involve Trackleaders. The batteries last for up to 2 weeks at 16 hrs a day activity. It's not that difficult.

I'm thinking why not just claim a Guinness world record without any proof it exists except Strava. The on line cycling press are willing to jump in and print it, the general public believe this as gospel and you claim you'r a world record holder.
Like this one http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/yorkshireman-richard-nutt-breaks-world-seven-day-distance-record-175854
Guinness don't seem to contest anyone's claims and their website is not the easiest to navigate to search for lists of record holders.

Strangely there's some bloke called Dave Berkeley mentioned in another Strava-obsessed "challenge" story here. Apparently he's a "former elite racer": sounds spookily similar to "Bruce" Berkeley, don't you think? Are they by any chance related?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/strava-long-distance-struggle-ends-richard-nutt-129002

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 03:53:18 pm
Bruce is Dave's nickname.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93962.msg1972726;topicseen#msg1972726
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: ramchip on January 21, 2016, 04:00:10 pm
Kurt Searvogel replied on Bruce's Facebook Comment.

Keep going with your attempt! I'm sorry that you couldn't work it out with UMCA as I was the person that asked you to do this and you tried. Thank you. As stated in the UMCA announcement the phone app was a problem since it doesn't provide a history to compare against your garmin which is used to verify your route. Your explanation of fear for safety or property is not really valid, both Steven Abraham and I did it without a problem. People will watch out for you if you let them. BTW how are you able to keep up with all of Guiness's reporting requirements, or were you able to get them to modify them for the month record. Also you should see if you can concurrently do a new month record because you will be averaging 1000K more each month than your current record, no reason not to put the miles to work twice. I do fear that if you felt these costs were high and didn't have time to handle these tasks or have someone to help you do these things that you neither have the funds nor support necessary to complete this challenge. I believe there are enough people out there who would support you and help you raise funds. At some point you need to let go of your pride and let people help you. It may have been the hardest part of HAMR for me.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 04:06:12 pm
Kurt Searvogel replied on Bruce's Facebook Comment.

Keep going with your attempt! I'm sorry that you couldn't work it out with UMCA as I was the person that asked you to do this and you tried. Thank you. As stated in the UMCA announcement the phone app was a problem since it doesn't provide a history to compare against your garmin which is used to verify your route. Your explanation of fear for safety or property is not really valid, both Steven Abraham and I did it without a problem. People will watch out for you if you let them. BTW how are you able to keep up with all of Guiness's reporting requirements, or were you able to get them to modify them for the month record. Also you should see if you can concurrently do a new month record because you will be averaging 1000K more each month than your current record, no reason not to put the miles to work twice. I do fear that if you felt these costs were high and didn't have time to handle these tasks or have someone to help you do these things that you neither have the funds nor support necessary to complete this challenge. I believe there are enough people out there who would support you and help you raise funds. At some point you need to let go of your pride and let people help you. It may have been the hardest part of HAMR for me.

Well said Kurt!   :)

If nothing else, Mr. Berkeley needs to get his verification process sorted to avoid public speculation about cheating*, or just failing to get an official record...

* - Not that I believe he is, but he's not the only cyclist posting incredible mileages on Strava, it's just not a credible form of verification.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 21, 2016, 04:24:15 pm
The more I hear of Kurt the more I'm pleased he got the record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 21, 2016, 04:24:58 pm
I agree with Kurt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: nextSibling on January 21, 2016, 04:30:17 pm
Kurt Searvogel replied on Bruce's Facebook Comment.

Excellent comment by Kurt. Highlighting the problem while remaining supportive. The more I read here and elsewhere, the more it seems his was the attempt approaching the record with the highest level of organization and professionalism (much credit deserved by Alicia for that), and the result speaks for itself.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 21, 2016, 04:43:24 pm
Kurt is a good egg. As he is the current expert, he should be listened to!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mileater on January 21, 2016, 04:58:50 pm
Forgive me for arriving late to the party... but I am completely mystified.

Berkeley claims to have the one-month Guinness distance record. But Janet Davison holds it. She did her record last summer, six months or so AFTER Berkeley claims to have done it... and Guiness appears to have verified her record in a timely fashion, but not Berkeley's.

So... he DOES NOT have the Guinness one-month record, contrary to what both he and some cycling blogs have claimed. If he did, Guinness would have certified it, no?

And if they did not certify his one-month record, how can he possibly get his year record certified if he is only verifying it with Strava uploads and FindMe?

Can anyone list the exact requirements for Guinness certification? There seems to be lots of conjecture re: what they require. What were the rules on Janet Davison?

But this is all quite mad. Berkeley appears to be riding off in all directions without getting his house in order first and I'm wondering what the point is in even following him.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 21, 2016, 05:04:13 pm
He claims to have the Guinness one month and one week records, pours scorn on certification records, but it happy to claim he has a record when he knows perfectly well that his one week and one month distances have been exceeded by others (RAAM riders and Kurt, for example).

I'm rapidly losing respect for him. As you've pointed out, there is no evidence on the Guinness records of bruce holding any records. Bruce is now stating on his fb page that he's doing this as a Guinness record attempt - but there is no evidence that he has the rules or is following them. As we know from Kasja, one of Guinness's rules is 'no drafting'; bruce is making full use of drafting.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 05:10:11 pm
I wondered who would have ratified Ossie Nicholson's record in Australia. I turned up a story of a young woman who got the 7 day record in 1940, which she still holds.

Quote
On Sunday 17 March 1940 Hawkins, only 12 months into her cycling career, set the 'World Seven Days record' in Perth, having ridden 1,546.8 miles (2,489.3 km) to surpass the previous best (1,438.4 miles (2,314.9 km)) set by Unthank. Hawkins also broke the West Australian records for one, two, three, four, five, six and seven days, plus surpassing the Australian professional men's record of Ossie Nicholson. Hawkins completed the ride in front of a huge crowd outside the Malvern Star headquarters in Hay Street and was greeted by H. Millington, Minister for Works. Unthank sent her public messages of congratulations.

She went on to ride for a year record.

Quote
In February 1942 Hawkins completed a 45,402.8 miles (73,068.7 km) ride in Perth, despite having missed seven weeks' riding because of injury, illness, and her mother's death. The press had reported throughout her 12-month campaign, comparing her milestones to those of the world record set by L.I. Billie Dovey, the English Keep Fit Girl. To wit, "after ten weeks [Hawkins] had recorded 7,302.8 miles (11,752.7 km) compared to Mrs Dovey's 5,238 miles (8,430 km)." Hawkins surpassed Dovey's record 29,899 miles (48,118 km) after 36 weeks, three days, one hour and 20 minutes and then raised the record by another 15,503 miles (24,950 km) over the final 16 weeks. The endeavour was sponsored by Bruce Small Pty Ltd. [3] [6] [7] [8]

Dénouement[edit]
One week after Hawkins completed her ride, the officials refused to recognise the record due to 'irregularities in the log sheets'.[9]

Marion Stell wrote in her book Half the Race, A history of Australian women in sport of the anonymous reality that followed the excitement of the record.

One woman oblivious to part of the war was cyclist Pat Hawkins of Perth. From February 1941 to February 1942 Hawkins made an attempt on the year's cycling world record of 29 603 miles held by Mrs Bill Dovey of England. Hawkins was only off the road for seven weeks of the twelve-month period and claimed a distance of 45,402 miles. But one week later supervising officials found what they called 'certain irregularities in Miss Hawkin's log sheets' and refused to recognise the record. One wonders if she ever rode a bicycle again.[10]
Australia did not appear to dwell on the loss of the record, nor even mention it; only a couple of newspapers appear to have referred to it: a single paragraph in the Army News of Darwin[9] while The Cairns Post stated that A signed statement admitting the irregularities has been handed to the committee and sponsors of the effort by Miss Hawkins.[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Hawkins_(cyclist)

There's a ready made story there for somebody.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 05:20:15 pm
Bruce should suck it up, accept some donations, buy a SPOT tracker, go back to the UMCA and get back in to HAMR. I can't see a reason why the UMCA wouldn't have him back as long as he follows the rules, they want him to comply. They might even agree to accepting his current January rides on the basis that all future rides can be confirmed against the live tracking log, you never know.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 05:25:08 pm
Bruce is in a fairly strong position, I assume the UMCA and Kurt would like the media interest to continue. That means either Steve or Bruce have to carry on. Steve is already within the fold, and whatever happens, will finish by August.
That leaves Bruce carrying the banner, and keeping the interest warm for Alicia's book.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 21, 2016, 05:29:44 pm
Can anyone list the exact requirements for Guinness certification? There seems to be lots of conjecture re: what they require. What were the rules on Janet Davison?

I'm not aware of the current conditions required by Guinness being published by them anywhere.  But here are a couple of excerpts from Janet Davison's blog in July last year (http://janet30daycycle.blogspot.co.uk/2015_07_01_archive.html):

Quote from: Janet Davison
In some ways it isn’t so surprising that Guinness who administer the world records take this seriously.  After all, the whole world record concept would lose credibility if it was possible to cheat.  The main evidence I have to provide is a file containing my route downloaded from my Garmin (cycling GPS) and converted into a standard file format.  This is absolutely essential, so to ensure I can comply with this I take with me a second Garmin and have access to a third at home if one of the two Garmins fail.  This proves where the GPS has been, but this could be me being driven round in a car!  To be certain I am cycling I provide video and photographic evidence of me with my bike from various points on the route such as town signs.  I also have to keep an old fashioned paper log in which people I meet on the way sign to confirm they have seen me cycling.  This is why you will see from previous blogs I am referencing various bike shops and other businesses I have visited.  I video all of these encounters, to provide confirmatory evidence.  I have also got kind neighbours who are videoing/photographing me setting off and returning every day.
I have to compile my own log of where I have been and who I have met so that if questioned I can personally substantiate where I have been and who I have met on every day.  This needs to be absolutely consistent with all my other records.
It all takes me about an hour every night to compile the daily evidence and load it onto Dropbox, then do another backup.  This allows my two independent scrutineers to check the evidence.  At the end of the ride they will need to confirm the authenticity of my record claim.  Everything then gets submitted to Guinness who will conduct their own review of the evidence for the record, checking that I have complied with the rules (more on that in a later blog) and the evidence backs up the record claim.  This review is likely to take a few months, and no doubt they will contact some of the people who have signed my logbook.
Whilst compiling the evidence is a chore, especially when I would prefer to be cycling or sleeping, I am pleased this is taken seriously.  I must admit to a little paranoia about failing to collect sufficient evidence or forgetting to switch on my Garmin when I set off.  I think the greatest risk of me having an accident at the moment is when I'm videoing myself whilst I'm cycling.

Quote from: Janet Davison
Apart from the need to collect evidence to authenticate my record that I described in a previous blog, there are a few rules that Guinness require me to comply with.  Some are obvious others less so.
I am not allowed to slipstream or get any other physical aid from anyone else.  This is pretty obvious when you think about it.  I could simply have a team of ‘lead cyclists’ and sit on their back wheel all day.  Slipstreaming requires about 20% less effort than being the lead cyclist.  It is the reason breakaways in bike races such as the Tour succeed so rarely.  So when I am riding with my super domestique he is hardly putting in any effort and I am doing all the work.
I have to start and finish the event at the same height.  In other words I can’t go to the top of a mountain every morning and coast down for 20km or so, and repeat this numerous times in the day and every day.  For me this really means I have to start and end the ride at home to avoid getting caught out with an overall net downhill ride.
I have to use the same bike throughout the attempt.  I can only change bikes if I provide photographic and video evidence that the bike is not rideable.  I can replace components on the bike at any stage, so this really means using the same frame.  I must admit I am not too sure of the reason for this, but who am I to argue?
I have to get the written authority from Guinness in advance if I intend to get sponsorship or provide advertising for any other alcoholic brand.  Obvious really!

These seem consistent with what Kajsa has to do to comply with Guinness and the assumptions made here on their requirements.  Note also the requirement to start each segment at the same elevation as the end of the previous day, not necessarily the same location, so that does at least allow some hops between (some) countries.

It seems clear that Bruce currently falls foul of at least a couple of the requirements:

Not drafting
Written authority in advance in order to use sponsors

And possibly others in relation to extra documentation of his daily progress.

If he thinks its a faff to pay the $30 UMCA entry fee or use a Spot, he's going to have fun with the Guinness requirements.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: tomh on January 21, 2016, 05:44:42 pm
The message from Janet implied it was only written permission for sponsorship from alcohol brands, so it's probably only the drafting and extra documentation that are a problem.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 21, 2016, 05:47:59 pm
Ah, you're probably right. I parsed that sentence as meaning 'get sponsorship' or 'advertising for an alcoholic brand'. But your interpretation makes more sense.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 21, 2016, 05:48:40 pm
Bruce is an ex-Elite racer, as he keeps telling us. Bluffing is a big part of the job description. He's no more ratified by Guinness than he is Eddy Merckx
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 05:51:01 pm
That's really interesting, Jo. So, presumably, Berkeley has all this evidence of his Week and Month record efforts, too...? It'd be interesting to see that. Anyone seen any evidence that he got these verification videos, photos and witness signatures?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 05:56:45 pm
Bruce is an ex-Elite racer, as he keeps telling us. Bluffing is a big part of the job description. He's no more ratified by Guinness than he is Eddy Merckx

Indeed.

Is this the same David Berkeley from 2003? Are these "elite" races? I haven't the foggiest, but I don't see le Tour, la Vuelta, la Giro, the Tour of Britain, or owt like that.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points?person_id=28236&d=4&year=2003
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: tomh on January 21, 2016, 05:57:48 pm
I think I'm firmly in the skeptical camp about both his current attempt and past "records" the fact that they don't seem to have been ratified a year later is not encouraging.

I suspect from the demeanor of his previous communication that he is probably relying on twitter posts/pictures for his documentary evidence.  He doesn't seem to be the type to keep an accurate and meticulous log.

EDIT: Just read this back and realised I should point out that I do think he's doing the miles... I'm skeptical that he'll get the Guinness validation.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 06:06:35 pm
Bruce is an ex-Elite racer, as he keeps telling us. Bluffing is a big part of the job description. He's no more ratified by Guinness than he is Eddy Merckx

Indeed.

Is this the same David Berkeley from 2003? Are these "elite" races? I haven't the foggiest, but I don't see le Tour, la Vuelta, la Giro, the Tour of Britain, or owt like that.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points?person_id=28236&d=4&year=2003

'Elite' is a racing category, isn't it? I've no idea what it takes to achieve that, but I'm prepared to believe he qualified for it - I understand he raced as a professional for Sigma Sport, which I guess would have required an Elite cat. He may not have set the world alight as a racer, but he did do it!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 06:10:29 pm

'Elite' is a racing category, isn't it? I've no idea what it takes to achieve that, but I'm prepared to believe he qualified for it - I understand he raced as a professional for Sigma Sport, which I guess would have required an Elite cat. He may not have set the world alight as a racer, but he did do it!

Fairy nuff!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 21, 2016, 06:24:02 pm
Anyone familiar with power data goes by this spreadsheet

http://cyclingtips.com/2009/07/just-how-good-are-these-guys/
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 21, 2016, 06:53:59 pm
Anyone familiar with power data goes by this spreadsheet

http://cyclingtips.com/2009/07/just-how-good-are-these-guys/

Yeah, so maybe it's been mentioned upthread or somewhere else, but what is Mr. Berkeley's power output?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 07:45:11 pm
Anyone familiar with power data goes by this spreadsheet

http://cyclingtips.com/2009/07/just-how-good-are-these-guys/

Yeah, so maybe it's been mentioned upthread or somewhere else, but what is Mr. Berkeley's power output?

he's averaging 150-180w, and peaking at around 900w.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 10:34:27 pm
Then he is, quite rightly, riding well within himself.

I can, and have, managed those figures (and more!) over a 300km audax but...

I'm not even a Cat 4 rider
Power is relative to weight (for climbing)
Power is relative to CdA for TT-ing (mostly on the flat)
I can't maintain those figures for more than a few days

All of which makes comparisons about power numbers next to useless.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 10:38:11 pm
Yes, those figures are, AIUI, consistent with an efficient, slim but not small rider averaging around 19-20mph on lumpy territory. I'm sure he's quite capable of keeping it up in the long term. Just needs to sort out the record-keeping!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: IanDG on January 21, 2016, 10:45:26 pm
How was Tommy Godwins record ratified?Who was the 'governing' body that monitored it?

If someone wants to ride 200+ miles a day and log it on Strava for 12 months, then I'm interested in following them and seeing what they churn out over the year. If they want to stick 2 fingers up to all the organisations that say you need to do this in our way then I'm even more interested.

I like the mavericks in sport. I preferred Obree to Boardman (but it is good to look back at RTTC/CTT records and see my name along with Boardman's on a National Champions list) and Ovett to Coe

Keep on trucking Bruce and don't let the bastards grind you down.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Oakhambike on January 21, 2016, 10:50:10 pm
So he can organise sponsorship with a flash bike and nice kit
But not a tracker
Or a support crew
Or even membership to UMCA...

The correspondence with UMCA is quite illuminating - an attitude of 'the rules don't apply to me, come on guys give me a break, poor me, I'm on my own, no-one to help etc' will fuel a certain amount of inner rage to keep him going but ultimately its a toxic brew and just means he self sabotages his own attempt.
I mean come on how hard is it get a tracker as required by UMCA or click on paypal to pay membership fee...

However , best of luck on his long and now meaningless bike ride ; hopefully he'll find himself somewhere en route.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 21, 2016, 10:51:35 pm
The way he tells it you'd think he'd only found out about the UMCA and HAMR a week before the off when anyone with the slightest interest in Steve's and Kurt's progress would have known about it practically from the moment those two august gentlemen threw their helmets into the ring.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 11:05:50 pm
How was Tommy Godwins record ratified?Who was the 'governing' body that monitored it?

Cycling magazine. Not sure what the implication is but it'd be a lot easier to fake daily Strava uploads for 12 months than it would be to fake the evidence that Tommy had to provide for his rides.

By having a proper 'governing body' it provides some authenticity to the attempt. Strava, on its own, does not.

If someone wants to ride 200+ miles a day and log it on Strava for 12 months, then I'm interested in following them and seeing what they churn out over the year. If they want to stick 2 fingers up to all the organisations that say you need to do this in our way then I'm even more interested.

Similar to what I feel (about watching him and willing him on to do it), but for a small amount of effort (and money that he could easily collect via donations) he could ride his bike and get the record ratified by someone 'meaningful' along the way.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 21, 2016, 11:07:36 pm
He can ride for as long as he likes. If it is just some bloke trying to see how far he can ride in a year then that  is entirely up to him. But when you are talking about setting a record or beating somebody else's then you have to get it verified in some way. I don't believe he would falsify his miles, but what process is there to ensure there are not errors in the recording? I just get the sense that he has a massive ego and is just doing this to massage it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how it comes across to me.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on January 21, 2016, 11:26:28 pm
My point was how high the level of an elite/cat 1 racer is - which he is/was as there's results to prove it

You don't bluff yourself to over 5w/kg
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 21, 2016, 11:35:51 pm
He's no more being 'officiated' by Guinness than I am IMHO. If he says it often enough he might actually start to believe it as some of the cycling press appear to be.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 22, 2016, 07:33:12 am
Young man, there's a place you can go.
I said, young man, when a record's in flow.
You can sign up, and I'm sure you will find
Many ways to have a good time.

It's fun to ride with the u-m-c-a.
It's fun to ride with the u-m-c-a.

They have everything for you men to enjoy,
You can keep your pram filled with toys...

It's fun to stick with the u-m-c-a.
It's fun to stick with the u-m-c-a.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: tonyh on January 22, 2016, 08:01:14 am
 ;D :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 09:32:27 am
;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 22, 2016, 09:38:22 am
How was Tommy Godwins record ratified?Who was the 'governing' body that monitored it?

If someone wants to ride 200+ miles a day and log it on Strava for 12 months, then I'm interested in following them and seeing what they churn out over the year. If they want to stick 2 fingers up to all the organisations that say you need to do this in our way then I'm even more interested.
That approach doesn't mesh very well with claiming you have two world records when you know damn well that other people have (under documented conditions) beaten them.

I'm ok with recognising individual achievement, but Bruce has said and been quoted multiple time as holding 'two Guinness world records' (with distances less than achieved by other people).
I'm fine with someone claiming a Guinness record if they are the one to have made the claim and had it ratified. But that isn't the case with Bruce. He's neither got a claim ratified nor has he actually been a lone individual who has gone further than anyone else.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 22, 2016, 12:29:44 pm
Now he seems to be wheelbuilding in his offthebike time.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 22, 2016, 12:52:52 pm
let's say Bruce carries on independently and breaks the record with 78,000 miles. let's say another rider decides to have a go in the future with either guiness or umca and manages 77,000 miles - would he be considered a record holder? in the official books - yes, but it's not a true highest mileage record as Bruce would have done more miles, even if without the "official" approval.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Polar Bear on January 22, 2016, 12:55:33 pm
How was Tommy Godwins record ratified?Who was the 'governing' body that monitored it?

If someone wants to ride 200+ miles a day and log it on Strava for 12 months, then I'm interested in following them and seeing what they churn out over the year. If they want to stick 2 fingers up to all the organisations that say you need to do this in our way then I'm even more interested.

I preferred Obree to Boardman and Ovett to Coe

Keep on trucking Bruce and don't let the bastards grind you down.

Absolutely spot on.   Especially about Coe!   :D

I would not be surprised if there are many many superhuman feats not officially recorded as records simply because people go and do things like climbing mountains and kayaking across oceans simply because they can.   Whoever made Guinness the defacto records recorders and ratifiers?   Guinness did, I presume.

let's say Bruce carries on independently and breaks the record with 78,000 miles. let's say another rider decides to have a go in the future with either guiness or umca and manages 77,000 miles - would he be considered a record holder? in the official books - yes, but it's not a true highest mileage record as Bruce would have done more miles, even if without the "official" approval.

Yup.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Whip on January 22, 2016, 01:09:31 pm
How can one win a race if they are not entered?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 22, 2016, 01:24:22 pm
let's say Bruce ...

We can all play the "let's say" game.

Let's say that due to misfortune, Bruce loses his GPS and we have a week of rides where we rely on his self-reported daily distances.

Let's say another rider decides to enter the challenge on the same basis of uploads to Strava but decides on a bit of 'digital EPO' on a couple of days when the weather was foul, gets found out but continues with the unaltered GPS data.

Let's say that another rider enters the challenge using a faired recumbent.

Let's say another rider enters and uses motorised drafting.

Let's say there's a dispute over the veracity of a Strava upload with two groups of people taking different views...

etc. etc.

I think there are significant benefits to be gained in having some form of neutral party setting out the rules over such matters to avoid unnecessary doubt about the achievements of the riders. That's not to say we can't 'crowdsource' our record holders, but as a member of that crowd, I'd like to have some confidence in the fairness and consistency of the record attempts.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 22, 2016, 01:46:33 pm
yes, there are many ways to cheat, but the way Bruce rides at the moment i have full respect and admiration of his physical and mental ability. he's not using (afaik) tri-bars, which makes riding such distances so much harder - due to aero disadvantage and increased pressure on hands - this is how Tommy did the record too. plus, he currently rides almost self-sufficiently without a support team around. too early to forecast, but i wish him all the best and looking forward to sharing some miles when he's back in the uk.

the above is not to say that i agree with Bruce's decision to do it his own independent way; i'd prefer he's gone through "agency" for the sake of "official" approval.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 22, 2016, 01:47:51 pm
How can one win a race if they are not entered?

By repeating, loudly, that you not only entered, but won.

Bruce is doing exactly this with his claims to hold two Guinness records (which, bizarrely, people are accepting without any proof) and claiming to be being 'officiated' (his quote marks) by Guinness in a highest annual mileage attempt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 22, 2016, 01:51:43 pm
I was interested to note the comments in the forum someone linked to about Guinness planning to adopt UMCA records.  That might be an interesting move, though it could just cause confusion, and the monopoly position may make it prohibitive.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 22, 2016, 02:36:35 pm
Guinness list lots of records that aren't valued by them, all the Olympic and Athletic records for instance. Armstrong would have been credited with a record number of wins of the Tour de France.
The UMCA 24 hour unpaced record is the 'official' Guinness one. If the record is from a credible source, they acknowledge it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 02:45:15 pm
yes, there are many ways to cheat, but the way Bruce rides at the moment i have full respect and admiration of his physical and mental ability. he's not using (afaik) tri-bars, which makes riding such distances so much harder - due to aero disadvantage and increased pressure on hands - this is how Tommy did the record too. plus, he currently rides almost self-sufficiently without a support team around. too early to forecast, but i wish him all the best and looking forward to sharing some miles when he's back in the uk.

the above is not to say that i agree with Bruce's decision to do it his own independent way; i'd prefer he's gone through "agency" for the sake of "official" approval.

Are you suggesting that in some way Steve took the easy way out by using tri-bars? Or Kurt did by being in the US? Or that Bruce is by being (for now) in Australia and avoiding the UK winter?

Bruce is being a fool for not getting his riding independently verified, and he's undermined faith in him by claiming records which have not been ratified.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 22, 2016, 02:57:41 pm
not suggesting anything, i have my personal opinion about things. use of tribars is one of the quick-wins and i'm surprised Bruce isn't taking this advantage. the attempts will be always difficult to compare unless they are done under the exact same conditions and circumstances. if Bruce does the highest mileage (without taking a mick!!) any subsequent attempt will have to look up to that mileage.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Tigerrr on January 22, 2016, 03:06:25 pm
I was really worried with Steve gone, and the outpouring of unanimous goodwill that has provoked, that the level of rancour on YACF might drop to blandness. What a relief to find it hasn't. Go Bruce!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 22, 2016, 03:11:19 pm
Tribars aren't something you can just put on your bike and ride faster.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 22, 2016, 03:14:31 pm
Tribars aren't something you can just put on your bike and ride faster.
I guess you are thinking of the level of adaption required when using them for long periods.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 22, 2016, 03:19:26 pm
Tribars aren't something you can just put on your bike and ride faster.
I guess you are thinking of the level of adaption required when using them for long periods.

That, plus it requires other position changes. I tried just putting tri bars on my audax fixie for riding a 12h TT and it caused big comfort issues when I tried it out. Solved by a set forward seat post but this resulted in a very odd position when on the hoods or drops.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 03:21:20 pm
not suggesting anything, i have my personal opinion about things. use of tribars is one of the quick-wins and i'm surprised Bruce isn't taking this advantage. the attempts will be always difficult to compare unless they are done under the exact same conditions and circumstances. if Bruce does the highest mileage (without taking a mick!!) any subsequent attempt will have to look up to that mileage.

As Bruce has trumpeted the fact of riding with Team Sky and others already (and I'll bet he wasn't on the front), I doubt he feels the need for any other aerodynamic assistance - and you can't ride tri-bars in a group.

Each rider has taken steps within the rules (for a certain value of rules, in Bruce's case) to adapt their bikes and riding to the conditions they face and the way they wish to ride. Of the three, Steve has given himself the hardest task by choosing to ride in UK through the winter, as Kurt acknowledged directly, and as Bruce is acknowledging by being in Australia and avoiding the problem altogether. The fact that Steve used tri-bars is neither here nor there.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on January 22, 2016, 03:30:34 pm
Tribars aren't something you can just put on your bike and ride faster.

I did think about sticking some on the Pashley.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 22, 2016, 03:38:26 pm
not suggesting anything, i have my personal opinion about things. use of tribars is one of the quick-wins and i'm surprised Bruce isn't taking this advantage. the attempts will be always difficult to compare unless they are done under the exact same conditions and circumstances. if Bruce does the highest mileage (without taking a mick!!) any subsequent attempt will have to look up to that mileage.

As Bruce has trumpeted the fact of riding with Team Sky and others already (and I'll bet he wasn't on the front), I doubt he feels the need for any other aerodynamic assistance - and you can't ride tri-bars in a group.

Each rider has taken steps within the rules (for a certain value of rules, in Bruce's case) to adapt their bikes and riding to the conditions they face and the way they wish to ride. Of the three, Steve has given himself the hardest task by choosing to ride in UK through the winter, as Kurt acknowledged directly, and as Bruce is acknowledging by being in Australia and avoiding the problem altogether. The fact that Steve used tri-bars is neither here nor there.

tough winter conditions is the most significant factor preventing higher mileage, that's why i have my utmost respect for Steve. other factors also have substantial impact, especially with the compound effect over a year. any competitor is leaving potential miles on the table if they don't use the rules to their advantage.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 03:42:51 pm
Indeed. But what are the rules Bruce is working to?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 22, 2016, 03:54:11 pm
for me one rule that trumps them all is to ride your bike as far as possible in 365 days with honesty and integrity. it is ambiguous, but sufficient.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mustgettaller on January 22, 2016, 03:56:11 pm
Oh dear, CTC have managed to not read the road.cc article properly! This is what they say in their 'cycleclips' email sent out a few minutes ago.

Year-record contender disqualified as feat brandished 'too dangerous'

Bruce Berkley is trying to take on the year record that others like Steve Abraham have also been gunning for this year (but Steve has now sadly withdrawn his attempt). The fly in the ointment is that his verification body, the Ultramarathon Cycling Association thinks the challenge is too dangerous, breaks their rules and is therefore disqualifying his attempt. With a name like the UCA, you'd think this challenge is right up their street! Maybe Berkley should set up a rival 'Ubermarathon Cycling Association'?


My bold where they link to http://road.cc/content/news/175539-bruce-berkeley-disqualified-year-record-attempt (http://road.cc/content/news/175539-bruce-berkeley-disqualified-year-record-attempt) where there is mention of Guinness thinking it's too dangerous (as has been discussed upthread).

This will nicely muddy (or stir) the waters for CTC members.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: madcow on January 22, 2016, 03:58:45 pm
The CTC has a history of muddying the waters for  its members .
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mustgettaller on January 22, 2016, 04:02:43 pm
The CTC has a history of muddying the waters for  its members .

Suffice to say I'm only a member for the insurance.  ::-)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: DaveE128 on January 22, 2016, 04:04:27 pm
Tribars aren't something you can just put on your bike and ride faster.
I guess you are thinking of the level of adaption required when using them for long periods.

That, plus it requires other position changes. I tried just putting tri bars on my audax fixie for riding a 12h TT and it caused big comfort issues when I tried it out. Solved by a set forward seat post but this resulted in a very odd position when on the hoods or drops.

Indeed. I note that Kajsa is using an interesting dual-position seatpost, presumably to allow her to switch on and off the tri-bars in comfort.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 22, 2016, 04:04:59 pm
That's exactly why.  She demonstrated that in a video.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 22, 2016, 04:10:26 pm
for me one rule that trumps them all is to ride your bike as far as possible in 365 days with honesty and integrity. it is ambiguous, but sufficient.
Difficult to verify, there is a history of people faking it, and (more recently) a history of people making mistakes and recording the wrong distances (this happened to both Miles and Kurt).

FFS, what is so hard about getting a SPOT tracker and using it?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Grandad on January 22, 2016, 04:38:35 pm
Quote
Oh dear, CTC have managed to not read the road.cc article properly!

I had already e-mailed them to point this out.  Not the usual person doing the weekly post today.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 22, 2016, 04:54:11 pm
I had done the same. I suspect we won't have been the only ones correcting them today.  ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 22, 2016, 04:59:09 pm
for me one rule that trumps them all is to ride your bike as far as possible in 365 days with honesty and integrity. it is ambiguous, but sufficient.
Difficult to verify, there is a history of people faking it, and (more recently) a history of people making mistakes and recording the wrong distances (this happened to both Miles and Kurt).

FFS, what is so hard about getting a SPOT tracker and using it?

regarding faking - i don't see Bruce as someone who would be doing it (unless i'm proven otherwise)*. yes, i would prefer he used a spot tracker, but he gave his reasons for not willing to use it (unfounded, imo, but that's his excuse, valid or not). he stated that he will be going for this challenge before, in 2015, and now walking(cycling) his talk. wishing him all the best!

*if it was Kim or Greenbank going for the record i'd want all the possible proof ;) (joking!!!)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 22, 2016, 05:11:21 pm
regarding faking - i don't see Bruce as someone who would be doing it (unless i'm proven otherwise)

I don't think anyone has ever suggested he would fake his results. But having a different set of validation rules depending on whether the competitor is seen as trustworthy or not clearly wouldn't work. As with almost all records, relying on a third party to remove (or at least reduce) doubts about the authenticity of an achievement seems a better solution.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 22, 2016, 05:22:43 pm
Records are funny things. There are plenty of stories of TT records being broken in club events. Chris Boardman was reported breaking the 10 record prior to his 1994 TdF debut. But those aren't records, they're training runs for events that are properly recorded.

The club event records are anecdotal, and to me Strava is a digital anecdote.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 05:25:58 pm
I don't for a minute think Bruce is likely to cheat in any way, but if his riding isn't accredited at the time (i.e. from day 1), it can't be done after the event. Therefore there will always be doubt over his claims, and no record book will carry his name. Surely to only point in breaking a record is to have your name recorded as the new record holder? That ain't going to happen. So what is the point?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 22, 2016, 05:26:39 pm
regarding faking - i don't see Bruce as someone who would be doing it (unless i'm proven otherwise)

I don't think anyone has ever suggested he would fake his results. But having a different set of validation rules depending on whether the competitor is seen as trustworthy or not clearly wouldn't work. As with almost all records, relying on a third party to remove (or at least reduce) doubts about the authenticity of an achievement seems a better solution.

it definitely is a better solution. what i am trying to say is that in Bruce's case, if he succeeds, the absence of umca or guinness validation will not negate the miles he'll have ridden. a very long way to go still..
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 05:31:44 pm
Records are funny things. There are plenty of stories of TT records being broken in club events. Chris Boardman was reported breaking the 10 record prior to his 1994 TdF debut. But those aren't records, they're training runs for events that are properly recorded.

The club event records are anecdotal, and to me Strava is a digital anecdote.

A record 'broken' outside the rules and visibility of the accredited organisation isn't a record. Never has been. Training runs don't count, howsoever recorded. They needn't be anecdotal, as such - they can be accurately recorded - but if they're not under the purview of the relevant organisation, they won't count. The thing is, they'll never get mentioned in any subsequent list of who did what. I'm sure, for instance, that the British men's 4-man pursuit team have broken the World Record many times in training, but it's worthless because it doesn't satisfy the qualifying rules for breaking World Records. It undoubtedly has happened, and been accurately measured, but it'll never be in the history books. Nor will Bruce.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 22, 2016, 06:12:42 pm
No matter how much you trust him to genuinely record what he believes he has ridden (& I do find the Guinness claims a bit disturbing). How can you be sure that he isn't making a genuine error. Miles seemed convinced that he'd done a month of 400k days when he had actually done nothing of the sort.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: notlobgp14 on January 22, 2016, 06:31:51 pm
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/archive/it-is-the-mercy-donald-crowhursts-log-17852&ved=0ahUKEwiLk5eO-r3KAhVIPxQKHTW1DfYQFggoMAQ&usg=AFQjCNHA94wgklRxfnLV5quDvxzVgQmcVQ

I'm not sure if the above will work, Google 'Donald Crowhurst'

If there's room for fakery......
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 22, 2016, 06:57:52 pm
The CTC has a history of muddying the waters for  its members .

Suffice to say I'm only a member for the insurance.  ::-)
Oh dear, another CTC-bashing outbreak ...

Mistakes happen. Ive just read a UMCA statement about a Phil WhiteHORSE on Steves team, and the HAND-cycle that Steve used whilst setting his 2015 record!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 22, 2016, 07:06:15 pm

Oh dear, another CTC-bashing outbreak ...

Off-topic, but there are many people who mourn the passing of the Cyclists' Touring Club.  Including Mr Bedstead.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Phil W on January 22, 2016, 07:50:30 pm
The CTC has a history of muddying the waters for  its members .

Suffice to say I'm only a member for the insurance.  ::-)
Oh dear, another CTC-bashing outbreak ...

Mistakes happen. Ive just read a UMCA statement about a Phil WhiteHORSE on Steves team, and the HAND-cycle that Steve used whilst setting his 2015 record!

I know, going to have to get my name changed by deedpoll.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 22, 2016, 08:21:45 pm
Bruce's surname also misspelt in the Cycleclips snippet. Just how many errors can you pack in to 4 sentences.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mustgettaller on January 22, 2016, 08:28:02 pm
The CTC has a history of muddying the waters for  its members .

Suffice to say I'm only a member for the insurance.  ::-)
Oh dear, another CTC-bashing outbreak ...

Mistakes happen. Ive just read a UMCA statement about a Phil WhiteHORSE on Steves team, and the HAND-cycle that Steve used whilst setting his 2015 record!

Ha ha! I agree. I'm stopping there with my CTC criticism. Oh dear...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mustgettaller on January 22, 2016, 08:33:46 pm
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/archive/it-is-the-mercy-donald-crowhursts-log-17852&ved=0ahUKEwiLk5eO-r3KAhVIPxQKHTW1DfYQFggoMAQ&usg=AFQjCNHA94wgklRxfnLV5quDvxzVgQmcVQ

I'm not sure if the above will work, Google 'Donald Crowhurst'

If there's room for fakery......

I wondered, with the discussion on this thread, when Donald Crowhurst would make an appearance. A very sad story - shows what happens when the event/pressure take over, underpinned by mental illness. Robin Knox-Johnston donated his prize money to Donald's widow. Quite moving.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 22, 2016, 10:53:03 pm
Bruce's surname also misspelt in the Cycleclips snippet. Just how many errors can you pack in to 4 sentences.
And your comment on the UMCA statement?

(is it CTC or UMCA that are validating these rides?!? )
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 22, 2016, 10:54:34 pm
Bruce's surname also misspelt in the Cycleclips snippet. Just how many errors can you pack in to 4 sentences.
And your comment on the UMCA statement?

Already covered by other people, no need to repeat them.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: redfalo on January 22, 2016, 11:45:48 pm
I have to say, I find the explanation Bruce gave on Facebook really weird. https://www.facebook.com/bruce.berkeley.1/posts/938139236274121?pnref=story

All this moaning about the cost ($300 HAM'R fee, $30 UMCA memebership fee, $200 for the tracker)  - given we are talking about a 12 month endeavour with no income earned and the need to feed yourself, these sums should really be small change. If someone finds it hard to finance these outlays, it may be worth rethinking the whole project.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 23, 2016, 10:50:34 am
I have to say, I find the explanation Bruce gave on Facebook really weird. https://www.facebook.com/bruce.berkeley.1/posts/938139236274121?pnref=story

All this moaning about the cost ($300 HAM'R fee, $30 UMCA memebership fee, $200 for the tracker)  - given we are talking about a 12 month endeavour with no income earned and the need to feed yourself, these sums should really be small change. If someone finds it hard to finance these outlays, it may be worth rethinking the whole project.

There are some staggeringly ill-informed comments on that post.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 23, 2016, 11:36:41 am
I have to say, I find the explanation Bruce gave on Facebook really weird. https://www.facebook.com/bruce.berkeley.1/posts/938139236274121?pnref=story

All this moaning about the cost ($300 HAM'R fee, $30 UMCA memebership fee, $200 for the tracker)  - given we are talking about a 12 month endeavour with no income earned and the need to feed yourself, these sums should really be small change. If someone finds it hard to finance these outlays, it may be worth rethinking the whole project.

There are some staggeringly ill-informed comments on that post.
..... and he says he is getting verification from Guiness ? Really is he? I have read about these rules and if the UCMA was hard they are even harder. Like no drafting?
 
Is there some place with the rules for Guiness verification?

At the moment it looks like just a nice long bike ride.

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 23, 2016, 12:00:08 pm
Let's face it, Mr. Berkeley is bullshitting.

He's clearly a very strong rider, but compared to Kurt and Steve he is disorganised. No team, no support, and now no independent verification.

Still, the Strava massive, and it seems the cycling zines, will lap it up, presumably because of his former racing pedigree. He's the kind of cyclist the sportive riders dream about being.

If he manages to keep going with his "wing and a prayer" approach (who can tell?) then I imagine in a year's time there will be articles in the main sportive riders' zines waxing lyrical about Berkeley's "triple whammy":

- the week "record"
- the month "record"
- the year "record"

Then, a year after that, everyone will have forgotten about Mr. Berkeley and will have moved on to the Next Big Thing seeking its 15 minutes of fame.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 23, 2016, 12:01:20 pm
AIUI he's going to present his evidence (Strava uploads and a few photos a day mostly) to Guinness after the ride and ask them to recognise it as a record.

In much the same way that he did this for the week and month records which he has claimed but which aren't listed on Guinness' website at all.

Good luck to him if this is his plan.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 23, 2016, 12:37:08 pm
AIUI he's going to present his evidence (Strava uploads and a few photos a day mostly) to Guinness after the ride and ask them to recognise it as a record.

In much the same way that he did this for the week and month records which he has claimed but which aren't listed on Guinness' website at all.

Good luck to him if this is his plan.

Yeah, it's weird this rather delusional blind spot in his approach.

As others have said, it must take a certain, highly unusual, degree of downright stubbornness to take on this momentous challenge. In Mr. Berkeley this appears to manifest itself as a rather ego driven cussedness, a bombast that is ultimately self defeating. He clearly wants to be recognised as the record holder, but can't be bothered with following rules or doing the necessary admin in order to gain "official" recognition. As such, despite heroic efforts, if he does exceed Kurt's mileage his "record" will remain unofficial, even if it is "recognised" in the popular cycling press, and amongst Strava users.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wajcgac on January 23, 2016, 01:38:58 pm
Bruce has made a couple of comments that suggest that he is aiming at some distance bizarrely lower than Kurt's new record.

Todays Strava upload, 333.5km stated 'And got the number done + extras' - Kurt averaged 335.4 km so how did he get the number done + extras ?

From his Twitter account he stated '3 weeks down - 301km up on target'

Compared to Kurt's final daily average of 335.4km for 21 days Bruce has averaged 342.3 km resulting in him being 144.9 km up on Kurt after 21 days.
Compared to Tommy's  final daily average of 331 km for 21 days Bruce has averaged 342.3 km resulting in him being 237.3 km up on Tommy after 21 days.

He could have course set a slightly different personal daily target (the number he refers to) for the first few weeks but it would be so close to the required daily average anyway that I can't see why he'd bother.

However, if he carries on the way he is by averaging over 212 miles (342.3 km) a day, lack of distance won't be the problem - just the small matter of making it official.

(edited for typo - Bruce is currently averaging over 212 miles a day not 221 miles)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 23, 2016, 01:56:51 pm
I'm sensing another Miles TBH, albeit one who is very good at riding a bike
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 23, 2016, 02:04:19 pm
That would be even more tragic.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: teethgrinder on January 23, 2016, 02:10:26 pm
If he wants his record to be recognised by Guinness, it is my understanding that Guinness will only accept claims via the UMCA, which is a very recent thing (as in less than a week), hence Kurt now also being the Guinness World Record holder.


Oooops.


Bruce said hello to me on PBP. He never mentioned he was going for the year record. He did look like a very strong rider though and I do wish him luck, regardless of his ride being official or not.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: SoreTween on January 23, 2016, 02:50:35 pm
From his Twitter account he stated '3 weeks down - 301km up on target'

Compared to Kurt's final daily average of 335.4km for 21 days Bruce has averaged 342.3 km resulting in him being 144.9 km up on Kurt after 21 days.
Compared to Tommy's  final daily average of 331 km for 21 days Bruce has averaged 342.3 km resulting in him being 237.3 km up on Tommy after 21 days.
[pedant]
If Bruce sticks to his published plan he's riding a 363 day year at best.  Probably only makes a knats difference to the numbers this early but...
[/pedant]
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 23, 2016, 04:08:23 pm
I'm sensing another Miles TBH, albeit one who is very good at riding a bike

I was going to post the same! Miles v2

At least Miles managed to get his attempt logged with the UCMA. Three times.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: MikeH on January 23, 2016, 05:06:56 pm
I really do hope this sorts its self out.  Would be a desperate shame if this becomes a "not quite verified" attempt.  Pat Hawkins almost certainly beat Billie Dovey's record, but history does not recognise her because verification of every last mile did not stand.

Good luck Bruce. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 23, 2016, 05:57:42 pm



Bruce said hello to me on PBP. He never mentioned he was going for the year record. He did look like a very strong rider though and I do wish him luck, regardless of his ride being official or not.

What was he doing at PBP? I can't find him in the results.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 23, 2016, 06:19:40 pm
AIUI he's going to present his evidence (Strava uploads and a few photos a day mostly) to Guinness after the ride and ask them to recognise it as a record.

In much the same way that he did this for the week and month records which he has claimed but which aren't listed on Guinness' website at all.

Good luck to him if this is his plan.

Yeah, it's weird this rather delusional blind spot in his approach.

As others have said, it must take a certain, highly unusual, degree of downright stubbornness to take on this momentous challenge. In Mr. Berkeley this appears to manifest itself as a rather ego driven cussedness, a bombast that is ultimately self defeating. He clearly wants to be recognised as the record holder, but can't be bothered with following rules or doing the necessary admin in order to gain "official" recognition. As such, despite heroic efforts, if he does exceed Kurt's mileage his "record" will remain unofficial, even if it is "recognised" in the popular cycling press, and amongst Strava users.

The psychologist in me wonders whether this is a "best of both worlds" situation.

Going for this record is a massively daunting challenge - Steve alluded to this in his television interview just before he started on 1/1/15. Bruce is, or would be, a strong candidate for the record with just a little organisation about him. If he succeeds in riding further than Kurt did in a 12 month period, he can point at his achievement on Strava and claim the record (in his view). If he doesn't succeed (and we have seen what a monumentally difficult challenge this is with the two magnificent riders we have been following for 12 months, so there is a very good chance that he won't) then he can quietly forget all about it - it will never have happened.




Bruce said hello to me on PBP. He never mentioned he was going for the year record. He did look like a very strong rider though and I do wish him luck, regardless of his ride being official or not.

What was he doing at PBP? I can't find him in the results.

Perhaps he didn't officially enter that either, but just "went along for the ride"?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 23, 2016, 06:20:49 pm



Bruce said hello to me on PBP. He never mentioned he was going for the year record. He did look like a very strong rider though and I do wish him luck, regardless of his ride being official or not.

What was he doing at PBP?

Riding a bike ?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 23, 2016, 06:29:44 pm



Bruce said hello to me on PBP. He never mentioned he was going for the year record. He did look like a very strong rider though and I do wish him luck, regardless of his ride being official or not.

What was he doing at PBP?

Riding a bike ?

It's a public road of course, maybe we can see his Strava track for that period. That will prove that he's just as good as any of the participants.

Anyone ride along, although obviously you might be attracted by the prestige of an event that others have spent a lot of time setting up, qualifying for, or both.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 23, 2016, 06:38:05 pm
Maybe you should send him an email and ask him ?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 23, 2016, 06:41:54 pm
I was thinking he could send a Strava track to ACP, and claim the medal retrospectively.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 23, 2016, 06:43:26 pm
He can have my medal if Wobbly doesn't want it to throw darts at.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 23, 2016, 06:45:36 pm
According to his Strava he was having a go at the record for the 7 day lejogle record but his knee blew up and he abandoned.

Now we know his secret - he must have a twin brother.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 23, 2016, 06:50:49 pm
Maybe it's a franchise. You can send out for any unverified record you feel like.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: SoreTween on January 23, 2016, 06:55:54 pm
That's a bit harsh, he hasn't tried to claim the 7 day lejogle record.  Just a simple case of mistaken identity which is why he didn't mention the year attempt to Steve.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 23, 2016, 06:58:13 pm
This is a lot more fun than watching Norwegian telly.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 23, 2016, 07:03:42 pm
Maybe there's twins, Bruce and Dave.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 23, 2016, 07:09:31 pm
Maybe there's twins, Bruce and Dave.

Bruce recently emigrated to Australia. Dave is currently in training for the UK leg, and did an "unofficial" PBP last year.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: velovoice on January 24, 2016, 05:42:27 pm
So which one is the ex-Elite Sigma Sport racer, Bruce or Dave?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 24, 2016, 05:47:09 pm
So which one is the ex-Elite Sigma Sport racer, Bruce or Dave?

British Cycling lists David...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on January 24, 2016, 05:53:08 pm
He can have my medal if Wobbly doesn't want it to throw darts at.

You'll have to prise that SR medal from my cold, dead hands.

Apart from my first PBP SR hunk of metal that one's my most treasured.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 24, 2016, 06:04:24 pm
You can have my PBP 2015 medal to throw darts at, is what I meant.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 24, 2016, 06:10:21 pm
So which one is the ex-Elite Sigma Sport racer, Bruce or Dave?

British Cycling lists David...
Could simply be like my Dad. James Raymond Ferry, Always known as Ray, appears as James on all official forms.

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 25, 2016, 09:31:47 am
road.cc have caught up with the news. Buried in the congratulations article for Kurt (http://road.cc/content/news/176223-kurt-searvogel-awarded-guinness-world-record-distance-cycled-year (http://road.cc/content/news/176223-kurt-searvogel-awarded-guinness-world-record-distance-cycled-year)) is this:
Quote
Berkeley set off on his attempt on 1 January this year, and Guinness World Records  confirmed to road.cc on Thursday that it will monitor his efforts.

A spokesman told us: “Guinness World Records can confirm that they have received a record application from Bruce Berkeley for the greatest distance cycled in a year.

“We wish him the best of luck throughout his record attempt and look forward to receiving his evidence so we can verify his evidence in the near future.”
and
Quote
It had been reported here on road.cc and elsewhere that Berkeley already held Guinness World Records for the greatest distances cycled in a week and in a month.

That turns out to be incorrect
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 25, 2016, 10:07:19 am
I'm beginning to think he's another Steve Coogan creation.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 25, 2016, 11:22:50 am
Bruce is coming across as a conceited fantasist, who feels his talent gives him certain entitlements.  Not my type of chap, really.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: SoreTween on January 25, 2016, 12:08:26 pm
Some interesting comments on that article including this reiteration of the Guinness rules:

Quote
I registered this category with Guinness World Records early last year and have provided the guidelines below. I hope this answers everybody's queries.

Greatest distance cycled in a year (male)

Record definition

This record is for the greatest distance cycled within one year (365 days).
This is to be attempted by a male individual.
This record is measured in kilometres to the nearest 0.01 km, with the equivalent imperial measurement also given in miles.

Rules for Greatest distance cycled in a year

1. This record is for the greatest distance cycled within one year (365 days).
2. The same commercially available, unmodified bicycle must be used throughout the attempt. Repairs, such as tire replacement and chain replacement, etc. can be made but the frame must remain the same. If the bicycle is damaged beyond repair, video and photo evidence and an explanation of what happened must be submitted. It is up to Guinness World Records to decide if the reason is accepted.
3. Any route can be taken during the attempt.
4. There is no minimum daily distance but participant must cycle unaided.
5. The rider must ride for the complete year (365 days) from start to finish - i.e. should a rider not be able to go on for whatever reason, he/she may not be replaced.
6. The cyclist may be followed by a support vehicle but at no time between the start and finish of the journey may the participant or his/her bicycle be transported by this vehicle. If any of the support vehicles must travel in front of the cyclist they must be at least three vehicle lengths in front.
7. The entire journey must be tracked by an accurate, professional GPS device carried by the rider. As part of the evidence submitted, a printout of the GPS tracking data must be submitted. This must show the route taken, daily start and finish times, daily start and finish locations, and daily distances covered. .kml files must also be submitted.
8. Drafting: During the attempt, the challenger is not allowed the aid of drafting. If the challenger is travelling with a support vehicle or other rider(s), the challenger MUST remain a minimum distance of 5 bicycle lengths from the support vehicle or any other rider(s). The challenger must not travel next to the support vehicle or any other rider(s) throughout the attempt. If this rule is not followed, the challenger’s attempt will be disqualified.
9. A witness log book must be made available for independent witnesses to sign. The book should be set up so that each witness includes their name, the location, the date and time, their signature and their email address or phone number. For an attempt which is supported by a backup team, we would expect it to be possible to gain sufficient numbers of independent witnesses to enable verification for the entire duration of the attempt.
10. A log book should also be kept by the challenger. This is essentially a diary, and should include a) daily start and stop points; b) daily distance covered; c) any rest days taken; d) any notable occurrences during the attempt.
Bruce can challenge the drafting rule, I wonder if he is keeping a witness log? If not he's going to be down to just the GPS and the fact he doesn't have the week & month suggest that is not sufficient on their own.
A printout of the GPS tracking data will be a tad weighty.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 25, 2016, 12:17:05 pm
People are being harsh on Bruce. Calling him a conceited fantasist? Really? I feel the more everyone speculates on this forum the more nasty the tone becomes. We saw this with Steve attempt up until he called it off.

Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?


Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 25, 2016, 12:21:32 pm
People are being harsh on Bruce. Calling him a conceited fantasist? Really? I feel the more everyone speculates on this forum the more nasty the tone becomes. We saw this with Steve attempt up until he called it off.

Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?

Without the verification required how can anyone trust he is putting in legitimate miles?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 25, 2016, 12:29:36 pm
People are being harsh on Bruce. Calling him a conceited fantasist? Really? I feel the more everyone speculates on this forum the more nasty the tone becomes. We saw this with Steve attempt up until he called it off.

Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?

Without the verification required how can anyone trust he is putting in legitimate miles?

Verification to one means something else to another. Who is to what is ideal verification. He's using a garmin and must hold onto every single ride file from that garmin to be sent to Guinness.

I trust his rides until I have reason to believe otherwise. It his job to prove to Guinness at the end of the year, we don't know what records he's keeping other than he doesn't have a spot tracker.

You and any other who believe it is simple to make believable 200+ mile fake rides, with power data, go for it. Show us how easy it is, submit those rides to strava.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 25, 2016, 12:37:54 pm
Remember to take a year off work or you'll be found out pretty quickly.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 25, 2016, 12:39:02 pm
Remember to take a year off work or you'll be found out pretty quickly.

I know what you've been reading.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 25, 2016, 12:42:58 pm
One person called bruce something rude. That's not all of us.

I think Bruce is a heck of a rider, but he is being very stubborn, he's had advice (even from Kurt) and offer of financial help. He's rejected both.  That's a damn shame, because I think he's demonstrated the ability to have a realistic chance of upping the 76, 076 annual mileage figure.

He's claimed, multiple times, to be the holder of 2 records. We know those claims to be untrue. I'm really unsure why he's made these claims; I'm pretty certain he did the rides, but the officiating body is saying 'no record'. That could be that they didn't accept his evidence, it could some other reason.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 25, 2016, 12:47:21 pm
ure.

He's claimed, multiple times, to be the holder of 2 records. We know those claims to be untrue. I'm really unsure why he's made these claims; I'm pretty certain he did the rides, but the officiating body is saying 'no record'. That could be that they didn't accept his evidence, it could some other reason.

My suspicion is that he has, or believes he has, beaten the records, but hasn't done any of the tedious paperwork.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: IanDG on January 25, 2016, 12:52:10 pm
2 things from the quote from Sore Tween:

Rule number 2: The same bike must be used throughout the attempt - Kurt switched from upright to recumbent regularly

Rule number 8: Drafting - plenty of video coverage of Kurt drafting

So if Kurt's record has been accepted by Guinness then those 2 rules are null and void
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 25, 2016, 12:52:38 pm
Rule 8 in SoreTween's post looks a bit of a showstopper if he's been hanging out with Sky and the Beanie Babies Astana.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 25, 2016, 01:15:02 pm
People are being harsh on Bruce. Calling him a conceited fantasist? Really? I feel the more everyone speculates on this forum the more nasty the tone becomes. We saw this with Steve attempt up until he called it off.

Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?

Without the verification required how can anyone trust he is putting in legitimate miles?

Verification to one means something else to another. Who is to what is ideal verification. He's using a garmin and must hold onto every single ride file from that garmin to be sent to Guinness.

I trust his rides until I have reason to believe otherwise. It his job to prove to Guinness at the end of the year, we don't know what records he's keeping other than he doesn't have a spot tracker.

You and any other who believe it is simple to make believable 200+ mile fake rides, with power data, go for it. Show us how easy it is, submit those rides to strava.

I don't think Bruce is faking Strava rides but it would be possible for him (or a mate) to fake a ride for an odd day or two he misses if he wanted. The point is if he doesn't meet all of the verification processes required by the officiating body then he has no claim on a legitimate world record from that body. His claims for the week and month record are already being held against him, he's either never officially claimed them or Guinness have rejected his claims due a lake of verifying evidence. The only thing he can claim is he went on a long bike ride and rode more than the person listed in the record books, he won't however be ever listed in those books.

It's disrespectful of the people who legitimately hold the records (and dishonest) to claim records for which you have no claim.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 25, 2016, 01:15:55 pm
2 things from the quote from Sore Tween:

Rule number 2: The same bike must be used throughout the attempt - Kurt switched from upright to recumbent regularly

Rule number 8: Drafting - plenty of video coverage of Kurt drafting

So if Kurt's record has been accepted by Guinness then those 2 rules are null and void

But Kurt didn't ride under Guinness rules, he rode under UMCA. If Guinness retrospectively decide to accredit UMCA records, that's up to them. I've no doubt that if there's a close tie between Bruce and Kurt, Guinness will somehow differentiate the rides to allow for the fact they were ridden under different criteria. That's assuming Guinness do ratify Bruce's ride - as we know, he's already transgressed on the 'drafting' thing, and he's going to have to somehow explain how he got from Australia to UK starting each day where he finished the last!!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Sea of vapours on January 25, 2016, 01:16:07 pm
My suspicion is that he has, or believes he has, beaten the records, but hasn't done any of the tedious paperwork.

There's a logical inconsistency with Bruce's apparent approach to validation and his approach to claiming [Guinness] records, even if leaving aside the trust issues around not having a live tracker, etc.

His approach seems to be that he'll provide distance/power files (and perhaps witness logs and photographs). If we allow, for the sake of argument and as appears to be his view, that this is sufficient to claim a Guinness Record, then simply looking at Kurt/Steve's publicly available Strava data should show him that each of them has exceeded his own, self-asserted Guinness Month Record. In other words, it's inconsistent to simultaneously a) claim to hold the Guinness Month Record whilst apparently b) thinking that all that's needed for certification for the Guinness Year Record is distance/power on Strava: if (b) is true then (a) is not viable.

I do presume that he's doing the distance, but I also think the paradigm where asserting "I have record X", often enough and publicly enough, leads to a de facto position where he is thought to really have record X is quite ..... unfortunate.

(The above points have all been made previously on the thread, but the key thing I wanted to express was the internal inconsistency in his apparent approach to the various records he's claiming and may claim in future.)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: IanDG on January 25, 2016, 01:42:02 pm
2 things from the quote from Sore Tween:

Rule number 2: The same bike must be used throughout the attempt - Kurt switched from upright to recumbent regularly

Rule number 8: Drafting - plenty of video coverage of Kurt drafting

So if Kurt's record has been accepted by Guinness then those 2 rules are null and void

But Kurt didn't ride under Guinness rules, he rode under UMCA. If Guinness retrospectively decide to accredit UMCA records, that's up to them. I've no doubt that if there's a close tie between Bruce and Kurt, Guinness will somehow differentiate the rides to allow for the fact they were ridden under different criteria. That's assuming Guinness do ratify Bruce's ride - as we know, he's already transgressed on the 'drafting' thing, and he's going to have to somehow explain how he got from Australia to UK starting each day where he finished the last!!

But to accept Kurt's ride as the Guinness record and then assert rules of no pacing and one bike for the year would be unfair to future challengers.

It also doesn't say that you can't have different start/finish locations for each days ride - you just have to log where you start and where you finish a day's ride. 'Journey' in rule 6 appears to relate to the day's ride (again Kurt jumped into the van and drove to different locations where riding conditions were more favourableon a few occasions). Rule 10c states rest days need to be logged so a flight to another country could be recorded as such.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 25, 2016, 01:46:26 pm
But to accept Kurt's ride as the Guinness record and then assert rules of no pacing and one bike for the year would be unfair to future challengers.

Guinness have a long history of changing their minds on the rules and just disallowing previous record holders. They've done this several times over for the round the world record.

It has been suggested (but I've seen nothing official) that Guinness want UMCA to do the rule-setting for the hamr. That makes sense.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 25, 2016, 01:50:57 pm
But Kurt didn't ride under Guinness rules, he rode under UMCA. If Guinness retrospectively decide to accredit UMCA records, that's up to them. I've no doubt that if there's a close tie between Bruce and Kurt, Guinness will somehow differentiate the rides to allow for the fact they were ridden under different criteria. That's assuming Guinness do ratify Bruce's ride - as we know, he's already transgressed on the 'drafting' thing, and he's going to have to somehow explain how he got from Australia to UK starting each day where he finished the last!!

Ride onto the plane and off again at LHR?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 25, 2016, 01:59:34 pm
The Guinness rules posted above do not prevent you relocating by aeroplane. It only talks about getting lifts from a support vehicle that is following you. To me that doesn't even preclude getting a lift to somewhere else at the end of the day from someone (as long as they haven't been following you as a support vehicle during the day).

And, again, Kajsa (who has been meticulous about following the Guinness rules) plans on riding in Sweden and Denmark during her year so I doubt Bruce's planned relocations will be a problem.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Laid Back Rich on January 25, 2016, 02:55:41 pm
Bruce is coming across as a conceited fantasist

IMV this was not rude, it was a statement of fact borne out by ample evidence.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 25, 2016, 02:58:23 pm
The Guinness rules posted above do not prevent you relocating by aeroplane. It only talks about getting lifts from a support vehicle that is following you. To me that doesn't even preclude getting a lift to somewhere else at the end of the day from someone (as long as they haven't been following you as a support vehicle during the day).

And, again, Kajsa (who has been meticulous about following the Guinness rules) plans on riding in Sweden and Denmark during her year so I doubt Bruce's planned relocations will be a problem.

No, I'm sure they won't be. And nor will the drafting he took from Team Sky and some other World Tour team - and I've no doubt he'll ride with other people through the year. If Guinness ratify his ride as a record, no doubt some caveat will be attached to say it was under some variation of the rules. Guinness (and UCMA) are quite good at having various records for essentially the same thing, either through age or some other criteria. None of that really matters a jot. If the ride is ratified, and he goes further than Kurt, he'll have the record. If he doesn't, he won't. And if he can't be arsed to do the paperwork properly, he'll not deserve to have any record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 25, 2016, 03:18:24 pm
Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt

Not quite.  Guinness Records have said that they will consider the evidence when submitted.  That's a very bland statement on their part.  What is missing is any statement that relying on Strava alone is adequate for them to accept his personal claim.  This is entirely different to officiating his "record" attempt.

Quote
, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?

It matters because any record attempt has to have adequate oversight to carry authority and validity.  To be undisputed.  It remains to be seen whether simply posting to Strava is adequate.  I would like to trust Bruce, but fundamentally I don't know him from Adam.  Most of us have an innate faith and hope for the decency of sportspeople, particularly in the amateur arena.  But that trust is littered with broken promises and sharp practice, which is why governing bodies are important.

As others have pointed out, there is also the question of where the line is drawn if the attempt is not continually overseen by an official body throughout the year, but is instead retro-fitted to evidence that Guinness may not understand can be tampered with relatively easily.

Just because Bruce wants something to be so, does not mean it is right or that it should be accepted.  A record attempt is carried out by individuals, but the record itself belongs to a wider community.

YMMV.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 25, 2016, 03:22:10 pm
Did Bruce actually say he is the guinness record holder? I've seen him say he beat the Guinness records, which is true, but have not seen him say he holds the Guinness record.

All I see is a guy riding huge miles daily with the intention of riding more than has ever been ridden before. Why so much hate towards the man. If he's happy to do so with the possibility neither Guinness nor umca will officiate it, so what? Why does it irk people so much. He still rode those miles.

I would of thought Bruce's style would appear to many. A man who simply gets on his bike and rides, no team, no camper van, no rules (potentially).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 25, 2016, 03:30:21 pm
Where is the hate? If he does the necessary riding and complies with the rules, he gets the record. If he doesn't, he just rides a long way for his own amusement. Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 25, 2016, 03:31:32 pm
I could understand if Bruce had asked for peoples investment either through money or time. Rather he's just riding his bike and posting on his social media accounts. I just can't understand why people would waste their time with so much negativity over the guy.

Why not just give him the benefit of the doubt, and if his mileage never gets officiated, then judge. Unless I'm mistaken, Godwin's mileage was only officiated by a cycling magazine? Hardly fair to tar Bruce with potential fake data on strava but accept the record of a guy who's attempt had far more possibilities for corruption.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 25, 2016, 03:32:05 pm
Where is the hate? If he does the necessary riding and complies with the rules, he gets the record. If he doesn't, he just rides a long way for his own amusement. Nothing wrong with that.

There's a lot of snidey comments throughout the thread.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 25, 2016, 03:35:03 pm
His approach does appeal.  Greatly.  But it makes his efforts a praiseworthy and audacious year on his bike(s).

Many people on this forum are members of AUK (me included) for which the codification, validation and registration of rides is an important aspect that distinguishes our type of cycling (audax) from simply being a bike ride.  I don't pretend to speak for audax riders, or for there to be a homogeneous consensus for such things, but I'd be surprised if I were the only member to be concerned that something so unimportant, and yet so important, as recording who has officially ridden the most in a 365 day period is left to the demands of someone who is choosing their own rules (in effect).

I suspect Bruce is a great guy.  Probably a bit of a pain in the arse from time to time, like most competitive atheletes, but fundamentally a good guy that you'd want to share a beer with.  But in my opinion the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or some other cliché!)

I can see this one rumbling on.  A storm in the tea cup of endurance cycling.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 25, 2016, 03:35:52 pm
I think that riding that far and not getting the record is a waste of time but he can suit himself. Any time you measure yourself against an existing record, you are implicitly opening yourself to comparisons. There is no way around that fact.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 25, 2016, 03:40:33 pm
I think that riding that far and not getting the record is a waste of time but he can suit himself. Any time you measure yourself against an existing record, you are implicitly opening yourself to comparisons. There is no way around that fact.

He's a guy who I believed suffered/suffers with depression, maybe personal sense of achievement is enough for him. I'm sure he would love an official record, but he seems content enough without it as well.

If its a waste of time to you, that's fair enough. I'm sure you'll continue to follow him and post your opinion often enough however.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 25, 2016, 03:47:59 pm
Did Bruce actually say he is the guinness record holder? I've seen him say he beat the Guinness records, which is true, but have not seen him say he holds the Guinness record.

All I see is a guy riding huge miles daily with the intention of riding more than has ever been ridden before. Why so much hate towards the man. If he's happy to do so with the possibility neither Guinness nor umca will officiate it, so what? Why does it irk people so much. He still rode those miles.

I would of thought Bruce's style would appear to many. A man who simply gets on his bike and rides, no team, no camper van, no rules (potentially).
I was pretty sure Bruce had said (on fb) that he held the week and month record - but that post seems to have disappeared.  A little google found an interview where he claimed to have both records.

That was a lie. His claims hadn't been ratified by Guinness, nor had he actually exceeded miles achieved by other riders in events.

Bruce isn't exactly the lone guy who is riding. He rides with professional teams when they are out training.

I've done one Audax. If I hadn't had to keep stopping for proof-of-location/time receipts etc, it would have been easier.
The requirements for umca hamr are pretty low. Bruce just refuses to meet them. That's just petty.

Bruce has already shown himself to be willing to be willing to ignore facts and figures when making claims. If he wants to actually go for the 365 day record, he needs to meet the verification requirements from an outside body.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 25, 2016, 04:20:32 pm
in my view, Bruce is doing the ride in a way that i can relate to most, no support, self sufficiently. current rules by umca were drafted only by few people whereby everybody else has to adhere to them. for example, i strongly believe that a bicycle is an eco-friendly mode of transport and any race or record attempt should exclude any fossil fuel burning vehicles. now, would umca or guinness care about my opinion on doing things? do i have to respect the organisations that set the rules against my values?
at least i can choose my pov and give credit irrespective of other's opinions. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 25, 2016, 04:26:34 pm
for example, i strongly believe that a bicycle is an eco-friendly mode of transport and any race or record attempt should exclude any fossil fuel burning vehicles.
So how do you feel about flying from one side of the world to the other, solely to gain an advantage with weather conditions?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 25, 2016, 04:37:17 pm
for example, i strongly believe that a bicycle is an eco-friendly mode of transport and any race or record attempt should exclude any fossil fuel burning vehicles.
So how do you feel about flying from one side of the world to the other, solely to gain an advantage with weather conditions?

yes, i'm against that and would not allow it in my rulebook, but public transportation is lesser "evil" - the plane would be flying to/from oz anyway

my hierarchy is:
no support
support by public eco friendly transport (el.trains etc)
support by private eco friendly transport
support by public non eco transport
support by private non eco transport
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 25, 2016, 04:51:04 pm
in my view, Bruce is doing the ride in a way that i can relate to most, no support, self sufficiently. current rules by umca were drafted only by few people whereby everybody else has to adhere to them.

For a competition that is defined by comparison with others' performance, having rules that everyone has to adhere to seems pretty fundamental to me. I think Guinness are creating all sorts of problems by simultaneously creating a rather restrictive set of rules for some people (exclusively women as it happens) and also ratifying other records that have more relaxed rules and leaving the possibility open that they may ratify future claims with yet different rules. It's not helped by having at least one competitor who doesn't seem to be keen on following rules set down by others.

In my view, both Guinness and Bruce are (unintentionally) devaluing the efforts made by those who went to the effort of drafting, validating and complying with the year record process.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 25, 2016, 05:00:58 pm
in my view, Bruce is doing the ride in a way that i can relate to most, no support, self sufficiently. current rules by umca were drafted only by few people whereby everybody else has to adhere to them. for example, i strongly believe that a bicycle is an eco-friendly mode of transport and any race or record attempt should exclude any fossil fuel burning vehicles. now, would umca or guinness care about my opinion on doing things? do i have to respect the organisations that set the rules against my values?
at least i can choose my pov and give credit irrespective of other's opinions. :thumbsup:

I like your POV.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 25, 2016, 05:06:58 pm
A bicycle is only actually environmentally friendly when it replaces motorised transport for an essential journey, otherwise it is just an athletic leisure activity that requires more resources than walking or running. Cycle racing isn't eco-friendly.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Arry-R on January 25, 2016, 05:16:47 pm
;D :thumbsup:


Plus one
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 25, 2016, 05:23:20 pm
in my view, Bruce is doing the ride in a way that i can relate to most, no support, self sufficiently. current rules by umca were drafted only by few people whereby everybody else has to adhere to them.

For a competition that is defined by comparison with others' performance, having rules that everyone has to adhere to seems pretty fundamental to me. I think Guinness are creating all sorts of problems by simultaneously creating a rather restrictive set of rules for some people (exclusively women as it happens) and also ratifying other records that have more relaxed rules and leaving the possibility open that they may ratify future claims with yet different rules. It's not helped by having at least one competitor who doesn't seem to be keen on following rules set down by others.

In my view, both Guinness and Bruce are (unintentionally) devaluing the efforts made by those who went to the effort of drafting, validating and complying with the year record process.

hence my opinion if the validating bodies keep moving goalposts when they feel so, why can't a competitor amend the "rules" slightly especially as it doesn't make the challenge any easier.
has everyone forgot umca's rule of abstinence for the whole team? i have no doubt about the qualification and experience of people at umca or guinness (or any other similar organisation). however even the most reasonable people are not excepted from making unreasonable decisions.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 25, 2016, 05:36:38 pm
Some call it "refining the rules", others call it "making it up as you go along".

Allez Bruce.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on January 25, 2016, 05:50:00 pm
There's a lot of snidey comments throughout the thread.

Hmmm... "snowandale" account registered three days ago, has only posted in this thread and is posting snidey comments. I smell a troll.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 25, 2016, 05:52:49 pm
The rule of abstinence for the whole team was, I believe, written with RAAM in mind, where there are no breaks, driving is an integral part of the event, everyone is involved with the ride 24/7, and alcohol would be not just inappropriate but potentially illegal and dangerous. That rule was not appropriate for HAMR, so was set aside - quite rightly.

All event rules adapt with time and experience, and most events have different categories. There are already, in Guinness, categories of drafting and non-drafting cycling records. The basic criterion is that the attempt is recorded in a way that is able to be examined and ratified after the event, and that I suspect is where Bruce has fallen short in the past and will again.

Reading Citizenfish's "The Year" will show you several examples of rides which apparently broke the record standing at the time, but for which the records were inadequate and questionable and so they weren't ratified. Most of those rides took considerable research to find out about, whereas the ones that were ratified are in the history books and there to be seen. Bruce risks being one of the riders who misses out on being recorded by history, just for being lax with the paperwork. If so, more fool him.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 25, 2016, 05:53:53 pm
hence my opinion if the validating bodies keep moving goalposts when they feel so, why can't a competitor amend the "rules" slightly especially as it doesn't make the challenge any easier.

If we have any influence at all (and let's face it, us armchair pundits have almost no influence), I'd rather see pressure on UMCA, Guinness etc. to apply their rules consistently and fairly than I would encourage competitors to shape the rules as they see fit.

I think some of the amendments made by Bruce wrt the Guinness rules definitely do make things easier for him, such as drafting in a peloton. Likewise, not dealing with live tracking also makes things easier for him compared to the other competitors. Allowing competitors to pick and choose is a recipe for chaos and a general muddying of the year record's status.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 25, 2016, 06:27:57 pm
that's the thing, there is no one to oversee their decisions and rules they create. i doubt, for example, that if a recumbent maker wasn't on umca's board, the recumbent and df bike would have ended up in the same category. it's a different topic altogether, but my point is that the rules are only as good as the people (with their own interests) who create them.

a proud member of auk 8)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 25, 2016, 07:07:53 pm
If you're implying that all the volunteers at UMCA are just in it for self-interest (and/or financial/business reasons), i think you're almost certainly wrong.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on January 25, 2016, 07:17:16 pm
If you're implying that all the volunteers at UMCA are just in it for self-interest (and/or financial/business reasons), i think you're almost certainly wrong.

i'm not implying anything like that, just saying that the decisions depend on the individuals in the group; a different board would have created different rules.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 25, 2016, 07:20:20 pm
I won't have any problem with Bruce being acclaimed as the record holder should he do more miles than Kurt. I won't mind if he doesn't get into the Guinness Book of Records.

I'll be doubly impressed if he does it without support. I'll be disappointed if he kowtows to any authorities to secure the sponsorship that might make his life easier. It's a record that demands a lot of suffering, and it will be all the more inspiring if he suffers alone.

I'm looking forward to see how he's done by the end of December.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Phil W on January 25, 2016, 08:20:12 pm
I'm beginning to think he's another Steve Coogan creation.

Youth Hostelling with Chris Eubank followed by Record Breaking with Bruce Berkeley
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on January 25, 2016, 08:47:05 pm
Quote
Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?

Really? All I can find is them saying:
Quote
We have spoken to Guinness World Records to seek confirmation that they are indeed certifying Berkeley’s record attempt with effect from 1 January 2016, and will update this story once we have their response. - See more at: http://road.cc/content/news/175956-bruce-berkeley-says-guinness-world-records-certifying-his-year-record-

Has there been an update or is this just a bit of Bruce inspired misinformation?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 25, 2016, 08:53:55 pm
http://road.cc/content/news/176223-kurt-searvogel-awarded-guinness-world-record-distance-cycled-year

Quote
Berkeley set off on his attempt on 1 January this year, and Guinness World Records  confirmed to road.cc on Thursday that it will monitor his efforts.

A spokesman told us: “Guinness World Records can confirm that they have received a record application from Bruce Berkeley for the greatest distance cycled in a year.

“We wish him the best of luck throughout his record attempt and look forward to receiving his evidence so we can verify his evidence in the near future.”

and from the same link:-

Quote
One other issue remains to be clarified.

It had been reported here on road.cc and elsewhere that Berkeley already held Guinness World Records for the greatest distances cycled in a week and in a month.

That turns out to be incorrect and most likely results from road.cc and other sites picking uo on reports that the records had been broken at the time subject to certification by Guinness World Records.

So we asked them to clarify the current status of the week and month cycling records.

“They told us: “We have recently opened a record category for one week (minimum of 2,800 km to beat).”

 “The farthest distance cycled in one month is 6,455 km (4,010 miles) and was achieved by Janet Davison (UK) from 24 July to 22 August 2015.”
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 25, 2016, 11:47:57 pm
I’m totally confused now.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 26, 2016, 12:01:09 am
I’m totally confused now.

In what way? As we suspected (rather, as we discovered by checking the website), Bruce does not hold any Guinness records, despite claiming two. Guinness have confirmed only that they will ratify his current ride subject to acceptable data being submitted. They are NOT monitoring Bruce's ride in real time.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 12:12:12 am
I think that YACF is essentially crowd-sourcing the reports. The Janet Davison story having originated from Hippy.
The interaction between ratifying bodies, the media and Strava is interesting, but at the heart I assume Bruce is still churning out the miles.

I also assume that he's happy to appear at the head of the Strava ratings. Does that satisfy his followers? That clearly counts for something. A bit of controversy will also help Road. CCs traffic count.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 26, 2016, 07:23:32 am
It is telling that the discussion is no longer about "how far has he ridden today".
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 26, 2016, 07:26:22 am
Road.cc is becoming the Daily Mail of cycling sites!

I'm sure Bruce will carry on, and good luck to him. I hope he manages to collate his data in a way which will satisfy Guinness. He does in a way represent the Strava generation, in that if it doesn't appear there, it didn't happen (but much that didn't happen does appear there!).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 26, 2016, 08:40:42 am
Road.cc is becoming the Daily Mail of cycling sites!
It's there already
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 26, 2016, 09:19:32 am
Road.cc is becoming the Daily Mail of cycling sites!
It's there already

It's been there for a while.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 09:36:24 am
The story has become about 'due diligence'. Journalists shouldn't just accept what they're told in press releases.

Strava is a good primary source, and there's nothing wrong with reporting what's happening there. We can also accept that records are going to take a while to ratify. So when we're told that Bruce has gone for records, has been seen to do them on Strava, and has applied for ratification, it all seems to add up.

The unusual thing here is that Janet Davison did her ride after Bruce, and was ratified. YACF's role in this is interesting. Jo's graphics were the best way of monitoring the rolling progress of the participants. But there's no point in doing that work if the record fails due to lack of due diligence.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 26, 2016, 09:49:09 am
You may notice in every upload Bruce mentions names of people he rode with, I guess these are the witness's Guinness requires. In the recent guinness rules someone posted here it didn't mention spot tracker, just GPS.

So far we know he is keeping gps data files, power data, taking pictures and potentially witness log. Yet 99% of posters assume he is just winging it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 10:06:11 am
We're just waiting for his 'record' from January last year to appear on the Guinness site.

http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record

Janet Davison is listed as holding the record for her ride in July last year, which has been ratified. So Bruce had a six months start in getting listed as the record holder, which was a new one. It's not that we don't believe that he's doing the miles, but that he'll never appear in the book.

That doesn't really matter that much to me, but it clearly matters to a lot of people, because it's even in the title of the road.cc link.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 26, 2016, 10:13:43 am
We're just waiting for his 'record' from January last year to appear on the Guinness site.

http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record

Janet Davison is listed as holding the record for her ride in July last year, which has been ratified. So Bruce had a six months start in getting listed as the record holder, which was a new one. It's not that we don't believe that he's doing the miles, but that he'll never appear in the book.

I still have not seen where Bruce claims to hold the records, he just claims to have beaten the guinness records.

Regardless even if he did claim to hold them and it later turned out his log keeping wasn't sufficient, we all make mistakes. He doesn't claim to hold any Guinness records on his social media profiles, he simply claims to have ridden certain mileage.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 26, 2016, 10:14:07 am
You may notice in every upload Bruce mentions names of people he rode with

Every one? I see he's named people he's ridden with just 3 times in the last two weeks.

The scant few photographs that are uploaded to Strava don't offer much in the way of proof, there are no obvious locations or dates/clocks visible to help corroborate things. But, of course, he could be keeping the bulk of his evidence separate (which would be a good idea anyway).

Ah, I see he's got a bit more stuff on Facebook each day.

He'll need to be keeping the .fit files from the Garmin separately. You can't get the original files out of Strava, only ones that have been downsampled and much of the useful (in terms of aiding validation) detail is lost.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 10:21:34 am

I still have not seen where Bruce claims to hold the records, he just claims to have beaten the guinness records.

Regardless even if he did claim to hold them and it later turned out his log keeping wasn't sufficient, we all make mistakes. He doesn't claim to hold any Guinness records on his social media profiles, he simply claims to have ridden certain mileage.

If you read the relevant articles you'll find that the month record was a new one. He approached Guinness, and they suggested a minimum standard of 5,000km. They told Janet Davison the same.

Quote
As was the case when he set the Guinness World Record for distance ridden in a week last year, there was no existing record ratified by the organisation for Berkeley to aim at.

He told Wade Wallace of Australian website Cycling Tips (link is external) that Guinness World Records had suggested he ride at least 5,000 kilometres, but he was aware other people on Strava were posting greater monthly distances so decided to aim for 10,000 instead.
- See more at: http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record#sthash.wY2PQzr4.dpuf

But he's not listed as the record holder.

These things go round and round these days because reading skills are getting worse. People see what they want to see. Is Bruce listed as the week record holder?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 26, 2016, 10:34:44 am

I still have not seen where Bruce claims to hold the records, he just claims to have beaten the guinness records.

Regardless even if he did claim to hold them and it later turned out his log keeping wasn't sufficient, we all make mistakes. He doesn't claim to hold any Guinness records on his social media profiles, he simply claims to have ridden certain mileage.

If you read the relevant articles you'll find that the month record was a new one. He approached Guinness, and they suggested a minimum standard of 5,000km. They told Janet Davison the same.

Quote
As was the case when he set the Guinness World Record for distance ridden in a week last year, there was no existing record ratified by the organisation for Berkeley to aim at.

He told Wade Wallace of Australian website Cycling Tips (link is external) that Guinness World Records had suggested he ride at least 5,000 kilometres, but he was aware other people on Strava were posting greater monthly distances so decided to aim for 10,000 instead.
- See more at: http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record#sthash.wY2PQzr4.dpuf

But he's not listed as the record holder.

These things go round and round these days because reading skills are getting worse. People see what they want to see. Is Bruce listed as the week record holder?

Again, where had Bruce claimed to be a holder of any Guinness record. Please enlighten me with the exact quotes.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 10:48:54 am
He can't claim to be a Guinness record holder, because he isn't. On two separate occasions he has set out to establish a new cycling record, in consultation with Guinness. Neither record is listed. Do you see a pattern?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 26, 2016, 10:56:07 am
Again, where had Bruce claimed to be a holder of any Guinness record. Please enlighten me with the exact quotes.

First one I've found on google (I'm still looking as I'm sure I saw something else...):-

http://www.noble-wheels.com/about-me/

Quote
// Bruce Berkeley

I have set two world records riding wheels built by Jonny – in June 2014 I managed 2,825km in 7 days and in January 2015 I rode 9,751km in one month. The next goal starts on January 1st 2016 with my attempt to break Tommy Godwin’s year record of 122,000km in 12 months. Jonny has teamed up with Boyd Cycling and Chris King to give me the best set of wheels for my journey. Cheers guys!!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 11:01:34 am
A Guinness record would be a tangible achievement. As it is, Bruce has not ridden the furthest distance in a month, or a week. If he doesn't have the Guinness record, he has nothing, as the article I linked to notes. This is why informed observers have doubts.

Quote
He told Wade Wallace of Australian website Cycling Tips (link is external) that Guinness World Records had suggested he ride at least 5,000 kilometres, but he was aware other people on Strava were posting greater monthly distances so decided to aim for 10,000 instead.

That’s actually some distance short of the 13,813 kilometres that Tommy Godwin rode in 1939 on his way to establishing a new record for distance ridden in a year, and the likelihood is that Berkeley’s mark will be beaten at some point this year by Steve Abraham and Kurt Searvogel.

Both of those riders are aiming to break the 'unbreakable' Year record – but their attempts aren’t recognised by Guinness World Records, which considers the feat too dangerous to attempt.

While they covered less distance than Berkeley last month, as the days lenghten in the Northern Hemisphere over the coming months, so too will the distances they put in.

Likewise, the 2,825 kilometres Berkeley rode to establish that weekly record last year is less than the distance covered in the Race Across America (RAAM), though Guinness World Records doesn’t tend to recognise events where sleep deprivation may be an issue.

AdTech Ad
We’re aware of other examples of riders putting in more than 3,000 kilometres in a week – Mike Hall during the first seven days of last year’s inaugural Trans Am Bike Race for instance.

None of that is to disparage Berkeley’s achievements – almost 10,000 kilometres is something many cyclists would be happy to be able to ride in a year let alone a month, and being able to put in a daily distance greater than that of the longest one-day pro race, Milan-San Remo is beyond all but a handful.
- See more at: http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record#sthash.FKZOQiOv.dpuf
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 26, 2016, 11:04:26 am
In this interview:-

http://www.bicycling.com/racing/record/bruce-berkeley-talks-month-record-motivation-and-what-s-next

he really doesn't go out of his way to explain he doesn't hold the record.

Quote
What had you done before this?
Last year, I did the week record in June—I rode 2,825 kilometers in a week and beat the Guinness week record. That was physically harder than the month record!

...

Quote
But you weren’t far off of 10,000! Were you tempted to not stop riding until midnight of that last day to try to get it?
I really wanted to enjoy the experience on the last day. I wanted to have some fun, be off the bike a bit. I knew I’d gotten the record, and once I achieved that marker, it was hard to push past that marker. I think if someone beat the record, I’d be motivated to come back and try again!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 26, 2016, 11:08:55 am
He can't claim to be a Guinness record holder, because he isn't. On two separate occasions he has set out to establish a new cycling record, in consultation with Guinness. Neither record is listed. Do you see a pattern?

I hate to be pedantic* but you can't see a pattern from just two examples.

*lie
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 11:17:01 am
He can't claim to be a Guinness record holder, because he isn't. On two separate occasions he has set out to establish a new cycling record, in consultation with Guinness. Neither record is listed. Do you see a pattern?

I hate to be pedantic* but you can't see a pattern from just two examples.

*lie

That's part of the problem, Bruce isn't a long distance TTer, so all we've got to go on are these two instances where he fails to go further than others have done in a week and a month, and then fails to follow up with the paperwork to get a Guinness listing.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 26, 2016, 11:22:58 am
If you want to be really picky he doesn't say he holds the Guinness record, just that he exceeded the Guinness-approved week record and the 5000 km in a month target set by Guinness.  Neither of which are actual records as most people would understand them anyway.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 26, 2016, 11:43:25 am
If you want to be really picky he doesn't say he holds the Guinness record, just that he exceeded the Guinness-approved week record and the 5000 km in a month target set by Guinness.  Neither of which are actual records as most people would understand them anyway.

I don't think there is a holder of a week record yet. So what exactly does he think he beat?

From the Road.cc article...
Quote
“They told us: “We have recently opened a record category for one week (minimum of 2,800 km to beat).”
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Revolution9 on January 26, 2016, 11:45:29 am
Who's "Fake Doctor HAMR MyArse" ?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 11:47:07 am
If you want to be really picky he doesn't say he holds the Guinness record, just that he exceeded the Guinness-approved week record and the 5000 km in a month target set by Guinness.  Neither of which are actual records as most people would understand them anyway.

I don't think there is a holder of a week record yet. So what exactly does he think he beat?

From the Road.cc article...
Quote
“They told us: “We have recently opened a record category for one week (minimum of 2,800 km to beat).”

Wiki has some entries.

Quote
Seven days[edit]
On Sunday 17 March 1940 Pat Hawkins, an 18-year-old female from Western Australia, set the 'World Seven Days record' in Perth, having ridden 1,546.8 miles (2,489.3 km) to surpass the previous best (1,438.4 miles (2,314.9 km)) set by Mrs Valda [or Ada Vera] Unthank of Hastings, Victoria. Hawkins also broke the West Australian records for one, two, three, four, five, six and seven days, plus surpassing the Australian professional men's record of Ossie Nicholson.[40] No authority appears to maintain this record, however notable distances ridden in seven days include:

Tommy Godwin rode 2,084 miles (3,354 km) between 16 and 22 July 1939.[43]
Bruce Berkeley rode 2,825 kilometres (1,755 mi) between 23 and 29 June 2014.[44][n 1]
Richard Nutt rode 2,830 kilometres (1,760 mi) between 1 and 7 June 2015. [45]
One month[edit]
There have been numerous claims about the most distance ridden in one month. The only authority currently recognising this record appears to be Guinness World Records where the record is held by Janet Davison (UK) who rode 6,455 kilometres (4,011 mi) between 24 July and 22 August 2015.[46] Notable distances ridden in one month include:

Tommy Godwin rode 8,583 miles (13,813 km) in July 1939.[43]
Bruce Berkeley rode 9,750 kilometres (6,060 mi) in January 2015.[44][n 1]
Steve Abraham rode 6,469 miles (10,411 km) in October 2015.[48]
Kurt Searvogel rode 6,828 miles (10,989 km) in December 2015.[48]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_records#Seven_days
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 26, 2016, 11:53:01 am
If you want to be really picky he doesn't say he holds the Guinness record, just that he exceeded the Guinness-approved week record and the 5000 km in a month target set by Guinness.  Neither of which are actual records as most people would understand them anyway.

I don't think there is a holder of a week record yet. So what exactly does he think he beat?

From the Road.cc article...
Quote
“They told us: “We have recently opened a record category for one week (minimum of 2,800 km to beat).”

Wiki has some entries.

Quote
Seven days[edit]
On Sunday 17 March 1940 Pat Hawkins, an 18-year-old female from Western Australia, set the 'World Seven Days record' in Perth, having ridden 1,546.8 miles (2,489.3 km) to surpass the previous best (1,438.4 miles (2,314.9 km)) set by Mrs Valda [or Ada Vera] Unthank of Hastings, Victoria. Hawkins also broke the West Australian records for one, two, three, four, five, six and seven days, plus surpassing the Australian professional men's record of Ossie Nicholson.[40] No authority appears to maintain this record, however notable distances ridden in seven days include:

Tommy Godwin rode 2,084 miles (3,354 km) between 16 and 22 July 1939.[43]
Bruce Berkeley rode 2,825 kilometres (1,755 mi) between 23 and 29 June 2014.[44][n 1]
Richard Nutt rode 2,830 kilometres (1,760 mi) between 1 and 7 June 2015. [45]
One month[edit]
There have been numerous claims about the most distance ridden in one month. The only authority currently recognising this record appears to be Guinness World Records where the record is held by Janet Davison (UK) who rode 6,455 kilometres (4,011 mi) between 24 July and 22 August 2015.[46] Notable distances ridden in one month include:

Tommy Godwin rode 8,583 miles (13,813 km) in July 1939.[43]
Bruce Berkeley rode 9,750 kilometres (6,060 mi) in January 2015.[44][n 1]
Steve Abraham rode 6,469 miles (10,411 km) in October 2015.[48]
Kurt Searvogel rode 6,828 miles (10,989 km) in December 2015.[48]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_records#Seven_days

But no Guinness record holder for a week which is what AFICT he is claiming or being accredited to having beaten.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 11:57:06 am
It doesn't augur well for Bruce, when his claimed mileage in a month is less than a month's distance within both Kurt and Steve's year rides.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on January 26, 2016, 12:22:50 pm
Who's "Fake Doctor HAMR MyArse" ?

PMSL

Someone (possibly otp?) proving a point methinks and I suspect using Bruce's own tracks to do it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on January 26, 2016, 12:43:02 pm
Who's "Fake Doctor HAMR MyArse" ?

PMSL

Someone (possibly otp?) proving a point methinks and I suspect using Bruce's own tracks to do it.

Ummm... would someone be so kind as to enlighten me what on Earth you're both on about? :)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 26, 2016, 12:46:01 pm
The cyclist currently second in the January distance challenge on Strava:-

https://www.strava.com/challenges/January-2016-ride-distance-challenge

(It's nothing to do with me before anyone gets any ideas.)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 26, 2016, 01:24:46 pm
Who's "Fake Doctor HAMR MyArse" ?

PMSL

Someone (possibly otp?) proving a point methinks and I suspect using Bruce's own tracks to do it.

Ummm... would someone be so kind as to enlighten me what on Earth you're both on about? :)
It is someone proving that you can fake things on strava.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 26, 2016, 01:30:33 pm
If they can fake the moon landings, then they can sure as hell fake Strava tracks.

 ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 26, 2016, 01:35:09 pm
Who's "Fake Doctor HAMR MyArse" ?

PMSL

Someone (possibly otp?) proving a point methinks and I suspect using Bruce's own tracks to do it.

Ummm... would someone be so kind as to enlighten me what on Earth you're both on about? :)
It is someone proving that you can fake things on strava.

Which is quite interesting. I wonder if road.cc et al will pick up on this? If they do, I wonder how many seconds it will take before that Strava account is suspended?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: DaveE128 on January 26, 2016, 01:43:43 pm
Oh that's hilarious!

However, I note that the rides are not public, so he/she isn't really showing how convincingly they can fake the rides. I also wonder whether they are simply downloading Bruce's rides, and re-uploading them? Maybe a little cropping to avoid taking the leaderboard top spot?

Still an interesting point.

Edit: I notice that the recent achievements shows Bruce's recent achievements so I'm pretty sure Bruce's rides are just being re-used.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 26, 2016, 01:48:16 pm
The idea of of being able to ride from your front door, keep going, and eventually hold the world record has a lot of appeal. But I'm beyond that phase of mid-life crisis, so it reminds of that line in W.O.L.D.

Quote
Sometimes I get this crazy dream
That I just take off in my car
When you can travel on ten thousand miles
And still stay where you are

 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 26, 2016, 09:12:41 pm
I mentioned in another thread that will be in na na land if Bruce is within about 1% of Kurt's total. The real problem that I see is that the distances are not confirmed. When I rode LEJOG plus back to Inverness and totalled about 1,700km with a friend all the way I rode 17km further. Well I did not but you get the point. So 76,076 miles is the target. What if Bruce records 76,800 miles. That is less than 1% over or the error rate commonly seen between riders on the same road doing the same ride. All records based on distance or time have a level of accuracy. What is the accuracy of a set of distances only recorded on Strava? What rounding, if any should we use?

Just a thought  ???

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on January 26, 2016, 09:41:59 pm
Quite an interesting thought too, BB.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wajcgac on January 26, 2016, 10:10:44 pm

If you use a wheel sensor with a Garmin 500 to measure distance, rather than rely solely on the GPS, then set the wheel circumference to 10% greater than the actual wheel circumference and then upload the ride to Strava, you will find that Strava over reports your distance by 10%

This would be difficult to spot with Bruce's back and forth, twisty turns routes.

Another reason not to rely on Strava for the distance ridden.

This does not happen with Garmin Connect and RidewithGPS. I've checked Bruce's Garmin Connect pages and the distance is the same as that on Strava so he does currently have a correctly calibrated wheel sensor, if his Garmin is set to use it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on January 26, 2016, 11:02:27 pm
Here (http://www.bicycling.com/racing/record/bruce-berkeley-talks-month-record-motivation-and-what-s-next) is an article where the week and month records are claimed, though not specifically as Guinness records. However there are - or were - several places on t'web that Bruce claimed his riding for both those 'records' was being ratified by Guinness. As we all know, neither has appeared in Guinness' records and a fair few people have demonstrably ridden further in both periods. Some much further.

If it wasn't for the fact that Guinness is again being invoked for the year record, it wouldn't really matter a jot. But Bruce would appear to have form in claiming that Guinness is overseeing his riding yet not producing a Guinness-ratified result. I don't think anyone doubts his week and month ride distances, but, without ratification, they are simply rides which are well down the league table of distance cyclists' achievements.

I note that on Strava he's been offered free GPS tracking, compatible with Trackleaders, by a British company. It will be interesting to learn of his response..
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 27, 2016, 07:15:15 am

If you use a wheel sensor with a Garmin 500 to measure distance, rather than rely solely on the GPS, then set the wheel circumference to 10% greater than the actual wheel circumference and then upload the ride to Strava, you will find that Strava over reports your distance by 10%

This would be difficult to spot with Bruce's back and forth, twisty turns routes.

Another reason not to rely on Strava for the distance ridden.

This does not happen with Garmin Connect and RidewithGPS. I've checked Bruce's Garmin Connect pages and the distance is the same as that on Strava so he does currently have a correctly calibrated wheel sensor, if his Garmin is set to use it.
Interesting, but I was not suggesting that there was an attempt to deceive in any way, just that there is a natural variation in the distance measured. From a very unscientific observation this appears to be about 1% and the eTrex is longer than the Edge 500. If Bruce is using a wheel sensor - which he does not appear to be doing then I hope he is better at measuring wheel circumference than I am.

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 27, 2016, 12:10:47 pm
224 miles yesterday  :o
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on January 27, 2016, 12:46:10 pm
That's good going, worth noting a NP of 178w would be a recovery ride for Bruce as well. That's assuming his FTP is around the 330w mark.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 27, 2016, 12:48:18 pm

If you use a wheel sensor with a Garmin 500 to measure distance, rather than rely solely on the GPS, then set the wheel circumference to 10% greater than the actual wheel circumference and then upload the ride to Strava, you will find that Strava over reports your distance by 10%

This would be difficult to spot with Bruce's back and forth, twisty turns routes.

Another reason not to rely on Strava for the distance ridden.

This does not happen with Garmin Connect and RidewithGPS. I've checked Bruce's Garmin Connect pages and the distance is the same as that on Strava so he does currently have a correctly calibrated wheel sensor, if his Garmin is set to use it.
Interesting, but I was not suggesting that there was an attempt to deceive in any way, just that there is a natural variation in the distance measured. From a very unscientific observation this appears to be about 1% and the eTrex is longer than the Edge 500. If Bruce is using a wheel sensor - which he does not appear to be doing then I hope he is better at measuring wheel circumference than I am.

BB

Strava trusts the "DistanceMeters" attribute in a GPX/TCX file[1] implicitly, rather than working from the distance between the trackpoints (which Garmin Connect and others do). That makes Strava easy to fool with things like incorrect wheel circumference.

One of the jobs of a validation authority (UMCA, Guinness, etc) will be to work from the raw fit/tcx/gpx files and not trust one particular interpretation of them (i.e. Strava's).

1. Not sure what the corresponding thing is in a .fit file, only recently started writing some utils to pick apart .fit files.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 27, 2016, 02:04:35 pm
.fit are easy to change and fiddle with and will produce a convincing forged .gpx track, as for the power output, I'm not sure, as I never use any of that.

I'm not going into any more detail than that, as it opens the door to those who can't get over it and wish to snipe.

But until someone proves that Bruce is doing so, this is all hot air and handbags a dawn.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wilkyboy on January 27, 2016, 02:28:20 pm
If you use a wheel sensor with a Garmin 500 to measure distance, rather than rely solely on the GPS, then set the wheel circumference to 10% greater than the actual wheel circumference and then upload the ride to Strava, you will find that Strava over reports your distance by 10%

I don't know what he's using, but Garmin dropped the option to set wheel size manually on the Edge 1000 (or at least I've not found it).  It's set automagically from GPS data.  What happens when you use it on a turbo I've no idea, but in theory it will think your wheel's tiny!

What I can tell you is that if you use the wheel sensor and the battery goes flat mid-ride then you lose speed and distance, even though you're still tracking on the map.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aidan on January 27, 2016, 02:46:22 pm
If you use a wheel sensor with a Garmin 500 to measure distance, rather than rely solely on the GPS, then set the wheel circumference to 10% greater than the actual wheel circumference and then upload the ride to Strava, you will find that Strava over reports your distance by 10%

I don't know what he's using, but Garmin dropped the option to set wheel size manually on the Edge 1000 (or at least I've not found it).  It's set automagically from GPS data.  What happens when you use it on a turbo I've no idea, but in theory it will think your wheel's tiny!

What I can tell you is that if you use the wheel sensor and the battery goes flat mid-ride then you lose speed and distance, even though you're still tracking on the map.

It is possible to set the wheel size manually on a 1000.  its in the menu for the wheel sensor when the head unit is connected to the sensor.  Not surprised you haven't found it actually!   And it has found the size of the wheel on my turbo bike accurately.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on January 27, 2016, 02:53:47 pm
Any significant discrepancy between wheel sensor and track length would show up, though. It's not as if you can't check this.

Really the only way to fake this is to generate and/or splice tracks. Sticking to similar routes each day would make that much easier.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Justin(e) on January 27, 2016, 03:00:14 pm
The continued debate on this thread is over cheating.  It does not belong here. I think that it is hugely disrespectful to Bruce.

If you have some evidence that he is falsifying his data, then fair enough.  But the only "evidence" available is that he did not buy one particular brand of tracker.  AIUI, he is being tracked, he is logging his data, and there is nary a hint of impropriety.  ENOUGH!!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 27, 2016, 03:24:20 pm
I don't believe Bruce is cheating, or will cheat. For Bruce, being who he is, it would be easier for him to ride the miles than to falsify the evidence.

I do believe that one method of recording isn't enough - just because of errors that can creep into the system. I also think that Bruce is a fool not to get his attempt validated by UMCA.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 27, 2016, 03:26:54 pm
Erm.

It's about the verifiability of a ride if done outside of a regulated body, and what this means for the validity of a record attempt.  Which is very relevant to Bruce's attempt. 

I don't think anyone has suggested Bruce either has or intends to cheat. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Auntie Helen on January 27, 2016, 03:34:55 pm
Yes, I agree with MrCharly. I don't think Bruce is cheating at all, but in five years time when someone questions his record it will be hard to provide solid proof if he doesn't jump through the hoops that the various accreditation organisations require (for a reason)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 27, 2016, 03:52:20 pm
The continued debate on this thread is over cheating.  It does not belong here. I think that it is hugely disrespectful to Bruce.

I asked [the moderators] for the thread to be split a while back but nothing happened. It'd be quite a job to split the thread in two now, but still possible, but the "Strava isn't a great standard of proof" and "why Strava isn't a great standard of proof" discussions are too intertwined now.

I have no doubts that Bruce is out there riding every single mile he is uploading to Strava. But convincing the majority of people he is/has at a later date is another matter.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 27, 2016, 04:58:03 pm
The continued debate on this thread is over cheating.  It does not belong here. I think that it is hugely disrespectful to Bruce.

I asked [the moderators] for the thread to be split a while back but nothing happened. It'd be quite a job to split the thread in two now, but still possible, but the "Strava isn't a great standard of proof" and "why Strava isn't a great standard of proof" discussions are too intertwined now.

I have no doubts that Bruce is out there riding every single mile he is uploading to Strava. But convincing the majority of people he is/has at a later date is another matter.

Who are the majority of people? You may notice that for all Kurt, Steve, and bruce, on all their social media pages the highest following is on strava. If the strava users are convinced, the majority is already convinced.

These record attempts have hardly set the world a light with publicity. I don't think he needs to convince anyone other than the small section of cyclists who seem to be interested. And in this day and age, his strava rides will be enough.

In 10, 20 years time, I'm sure strava will still be around.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 27, 2016, 05:18:43 pm
In 10, 20 years time, I'm sure strava will still be around.

Yeah.

Just like Atari, Aldus, Ericsson, Blackberry, MySpace, and Geocities. All thriving.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: IanDG on January 27, 2016, 05:19:49 pm
Steve, Kurt - (edit: I thought) their distance was taken from what was uploaded to Strava - the only difference was carrying a logger.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on January 27, 2016, 05:32:04 pm
In 10, 20 years time, I'm sure strava will still be around.

Yeah.

Just like Atari, Aldus, Ericsson, Blackberry, MySpace, and Geocities. All thriving.

Not sure how naming those companies is in any way relevant. Even if strava is not around, another sharing your activity based on gps website will be. I think Bruce using a gsrmin and uploading his rides online will be enough to convince people for the forseable future. Perhaps in 100 years people will look back and say well that method was wildly innacurate we can't trust those details, but we will never know.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 27, 2016, 05:35:30 pm
Steve, Kurt - their distance was taken from what was uploaded to Strava - the only difference was carrying a logger.

On several occasions, those Strava distances were not the ones that formed the official record. They were changed when discrepancies were spotted (such as inadvertent recording of car transfers, GPS errors, duplicated segments etc.). There was more going on behind the scenes than simply taking the headline Strava figures at face value.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wajcgac on January 27, 2016, 05:38:54 pm
Steve, Kurt - their distance was taken from what was uploaded to Strava - the only difference was carrying a logger.

I don't think that's true either as there was no requirement in the HAMR rules to upload to Strava.
 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 27, 2016, 05:44:58 pm
If the Strava community are the sole arbiters, then Snowandale is wasting his time here. If the approbation of 'followers' is all he needs, then there's no reason to bother with people who ask questions like 'Does he really hold any of the records he claims?'

Strava is social media, and a sort of mutual support network. This is part of the Audax world, where people cross t's and dot i's. Bruce doesn't need our approval, and we don't need to approve of him. He may even get a psychological boost from the disapproval of a bunch of old farts. But the main barriers are physiological, and the place with the highest percentage of those experienced in riding successive 200 mile days is here. So there'll continue to be an interest in what Bruce is doing, as the identification with the actual task is highest here.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 27, 2016, 05:46:19 pm
In 10, 20 years time, I'm sure strava will still be around.

Yeah.

Just like Atari, Aldus, Ericsson, Blackberry, MySpace, and Geocities. All thriving.

Not sure how naming those companies is in any way relevant. Even if strava is not around, another sharing your activity based on gps website will be.

It's relevant in the context of your assertion, quoted above.

Technology changes. In 10 years, let alone 20, the standard for positioning and navigation may have changed, and GPS may be obsolete, as Betamax video recorders, floppy discs, SCSI connectors and PS/2 peripherals are today.

Technology companies change even more quickly. If you hoped to stay in touch with those old classmates on Friends Reunited, tough. Similarly athletes and cyclists may have moved on from Strava to a different platform in 5 years, never mind 10.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wajcgac on January 27, 2016, 05:49:50 pm
Any significant discrepancy between wheel sensor and track length would show up, though. It's not as if you can't check this..

The vast majority of people will take what's posted up on Strava as gospel though without any further check.

And to check it properly you'd need access to the actual GPX file that Bruce uploaded, which Strava users don't have.

Jo OTP who does all the great data analysis and charts has already found that when you download the GPX from Strava it still does not contain the data for the part of the ride from the time Bruce entered or left his privacy zone although it does report the distance that was cycled within that zone. You need to refer to his Garmin Connect page for this which shows the correct distance for the reasons described by Greenbank.

You could of course plot parts of his route out on Google maps and compare to the same part of his Strava upload but if it the wheel sensor was only 2% over reading then it's not so obvious.

2% of 75,000 miles is 1500 miles or just over a weeks riding - or looking at it another way, a distance greater than that by which Kurt beat Tommy.

The continued debate on this thread is over cheating.  It does not belong here. I think that it is hugely disrespectful to Bruce.

I'm not calling Bruce a cheat either, I also believe he is doing this for real and I'm seriously impressed by his start to the challenge. My initial post and this one are in response to this

All records based on distance or time have a level of accuracy. What is the accuracy of a set of distances only recorded on Strava. What rounding, if any should we use?

Just a thought  ???

BB

I was highlighting a quirk of Strava and one way errors could be introduced in to the distance reported.



Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: IanDG on January 27, 2016, 05:57:18 pm
Steve, Kurt - their distance was taken from what was uploaded to Strava - the only difference was carrying a logger.

On several occasions, those Strava distances were not the ones that formed the official record. They were changed when discrepancies were spotted (such as inadvertent recording of car transfers, GPS errors, duplicated segments etc.). There was more going on behind the scenes than simply taking the headline Strava figures at face value.





I don't think that's true either as there was no requirement in the HAMR rules to upload to Strava.
 

Thanks for correction - I mis-understood, thought that there was a requirement to upload to Strava within a given time and that this was then used for the distance total.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 27, 2016, 06:42:30 pm
Technology changes. In 10 years, let alone 20, the standard for positioning and navigation may have changed, and GPS may be obsolete, as Betamax video recorders, floppy discs, SCSI connectors and PS/2 peripherals are today.

The obsolescence of the GPS system may be forced rather than chosen. If the human race doesn't sort itself out then there's a chance that there will be no satellites left functioning and no way to safely get a new one up through low earth orbit. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 27, 2016, 06:50:15 pm
Today is quite unusual; there have been _2_ posts about how far he rode!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 27, 2016, 06:57:21 pm
*Diverted cyclist*

The obsolescence of the GPS system may be forced rather than chosen. If the human race doesn't sort itself out then there's a chance that there will be no satellites left functioning and no way to safely get a new one up through low earth orbit.

As GPS are in Medium Earth Orbit, we should be OK (I think it's just hanging around in LEO that would be the problem, not travelling though it).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 27, 2016, 07:05:42 pm
Thare are other threats; today I built a (small but vital) component that will go into a GPS satellite. Just sayin ...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on January 27, 2016, 07:44:43 pm
Today is quite unusual; there have been _2_ posts about how far he rode!

But do we know with any certainty how far he rode?  ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 27, 2016, 07:54:58 pm
The continued debate on this thread is over cheating.  It does not belong here. I think that it is hugely disrespectful to Bruce.

I asked [the moderators] for the thread to be split a while back but nothing happened. It'd be quite a job to split the thread in two now, but still possible, but the "Strava isn't a great standard of proof" and "why Strava isn't a great standard of proof" discussions are too intertwined now.

I have no doubts that Bruce is out there riding every single mile he is uploading to Strava. But convincing the majority of people he is/has at a later date is another matter.

Who are the majority of people? You may notice that for all Kurt, Steve, and bruce, on all their social media pages the highest following is on strava. If the strava users are convinced, the majority is already convinced.
"social media" isnt the internet. There are plenty of people following Kurt/Steve/Bruce who dont even have social media accounts.

(plus a few without internet connection - but I'll admit they're a *very* small number!)
If the Strava community are the sole arbiters, then Snowandale is wasting his time here. If the approbation of 'followers' is all he needs, then there's no reason to bother with people who ask questions like 'Does he really hold any of the records he claims?'

Strava is social media, and a sort of mutual support network. This is part of the Audax world, where people cross t's and dot i's. Bruce doesn't need our approval, and we don't need to approve of him. He may even get a psychological boost from the disapproval of a bunch of old farts. But the main barriers are physiological, and the place with the highest percentage of those experienced in riding successive 200 mile days is here. So there'll continue to be an interest in what Bruce is doing, as the identification with the actual task is highest here.
I agree with all that.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 27, 2016, 08:12:30 pm
(I think it's just hanging around in LEO that would be the problem, not travelling though it).

Ah, yes, misread the page.

Still, it got my brain working on a more localised GPS 'mesh' using ground based transmitters (I know some form of these exist already with DGPS) and line-of-sight and all the rest.

Quite what this has to do with Bruce's attempt I don't know, so I'll stop.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 27, 2016, 08:38:18 pm
(I think it's just hanging around in LEO that would be the problem, not travelling though it).

Ah, yes, misread the page.

Still, it got my brain working on a more localised GPS 'mesh' using ground based transmitters (I know some form of these exist already with DGPS) and line-of-sight and all the rest.

Quite what this has to do with Bruce's attempt I don't know, so I'll stop.

A ground based system already exists and trials ongoing with clients, including US military apparently

http://www.locata.com
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wilkyboy on January 27, 2016, 09:06:55 pm
It is possible to set the wheel size manually on a 1000.  its in the menu for the wheel sensor when the head unit is connected to the sensor.  Not surprised you haven't found it actually!   And it has found the size of the wheel on my turbo bike accurately.

Genius, Aidan, many thanks for the info!  :thumbsup: 

My 1000 thought my wheel was very small the other day and it gradually "grew" over the course of several kilometres to the correct size.  I'm running an 800 side-by-side with it on GPS-speed mode, so I can compare figures in some sort of pseudo long-term nerd-fest test, just because I happen to have kept my old one when I upgraded for PBP, and it would've been useful to have overridden the auto setting  ::-)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Justin(e) on January 28, 2016, 12:16:04 pm
Bruce doesn't need our approval, and we don't need to approve of him. He may even get a psychological boost from the disapproval of a bunch of old farts. But the main barriers are physiological, and the place with the highest percentage of those experienced in riding successive 200 mile days is here.

Recall that Alicia had some really dark days.  I assumed they were to do with comments emanating from here.

The small chips at psychological aspects of a competitors attempt may make a large difference.  Constant questioning of Bruce is likely to make it harder for him.  When all is said and done, this forum is the epicentre of the HAMR. Convincing this community counts for quite a lot.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 28, 2016, 12:38:19 pm
If so, perhaps he should try following the accepted rules, rather than making up his own?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on January 28, 2016, 12:59:54 pm
I assumed they were to do with comments emanating from here.

Possibly (only Alicia can answer that), but some of the comments I saw posted on Kurt's Facebook page were orders of magnitude worse than the comments on here.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 28, 2016, 01:09:17 pm
Alicia didn't ride, and she said they liked to have a laugh at YACF.
If you follow PBP you have access to a very large sample of why people can't ride 200 miles a day for multiple days. Failure of will is one reason certainly, but it's mainly contact points, knees, achilles and Shermer's Neck.

The average Strava or Facebook poster won't know this.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 28, 2016, 01:23:08 pm
I assumed they were to do with comments emanating from here.

Possibly (only Alicia can answer that), but some of the comments I saw posted on Kurt's Facebook page were orders of magnitude worse than the comments on here.

And in the Strava feed.  There were a few spiteful attention seekers who revelled in rattling The Beast's cage bars, taunting him about being a hill dodger, or a wheel sucker, or an all-round charlatan whose HRM reading defied the laws of nature.  The internet brings out the worst in some people.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 28, 2016, 02:26:57 pm
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 28, 2016, 02:40:43 pm
Quiet everyone! Aunt Maud's fallen asleep. Let's draw a comedy moustache on his face!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Whip on January 28, 2016, 04:08:38 pm
Alicia here ;D

Was I asked to comment? ::-)
It would be easy to assume that derogatory postings anywhere would "rattled the beast's cage," but for the most part, he never had time to read the comments and if he did he was not phased. If anything he laughed, he knows what is truth (and he's an Alpha male). So, psychologically this was the least of his problems and a nonissue for him. I was very in tune to his mental and physical state. It was how I recognized what approach in motivational support he needed. Now, on the other hand, rivalry was just rivalry, although, I would get a bit bent when I read anything that was not true or a false accusation. It would only last for a few minutes and I would have to hold back and not respond. :-X "Forgive them for they do not know..." would play in my head. I realize nobody knows what we are really doing or going through. Any experienced cyclist could theorize, but that's all it is - an experiential guess.

I don't know Bruce Berkley personally. We have chatted only a few times. From what I can tell so far, he has what it takes to do this. My concern for him is that things almost never always go wrong. Garmin has glitches and Strava has glitches, it's not enough. Does he have a backup and backup proof? Does he have a qualified official verifying body to check and cross check for discrepancys or a failure? If it is Guinness, we will not know until he is finished. I do wish him well, but if he doesn't get his ducks in order it appears to be playing out as stubborn self sabotage. I say, kiss and make-up with UMCA and get on with it! IMHO

Of course, my bias thoughts on anyone attempting this challenge that neglects to recruit 100% support or immediate available support at a phone call away is overlooking the fact that SHIT HAPPENS! It just does. I know from a fairly recent memoir that "a dame with a van" works... I suppose a dude with any vehicle would too, but...





Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on January 28, 2016, 04:10:27 pm
Quiet everyone! Aunt Maud's fallen asleep. Let's draw a comedy moustache on his face!

Dirty Sanchez...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hatler on January 28, 2016, 04:14:59 pm
Alicia here ;D

Was I asked to comment? ::-)


Sheesh !!  You never need to be asked to comment here.  Just look at 99% of the other postings.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 28, 2016, 04:19:16 pm
Useful contribution there, Whip!  I wish I knew what the position was with Bruce.  He's clearly an outstanding rider, but that is nowhere near enough to maintain a full year challenge, as you & Kurt proved.  Shit certainly does happen, and you got over Kurt being knocked off, bikes being damaged falling off the original rack, Kurt's heart and breathing problems etc etc.  I can't see how Kurt, capable though he is, could have managed those difficulties without you.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Whip on January 28, 2016, 04:19:50 pm
I have to say that I am thoroughly enjoying Dave Barter's book The Year! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 28, 2016, 04:22:13 pm
You say that, but you've made the poor lad have to write a new chapter! ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 28, 2016, 05:10:37 pm
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/bbc-2_colour_test_card_0_zpsqz6dlkqh.jpg)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 28, 2016, 06:52:28 pm
I have to say that I am thoroughly enjoying Dave Barter's book The Year! :thumbsup:

Likewise.  Reading about Godwin, especially after the record, makes me understand why his daughter calls him her hero.  There are other very engaging characters in there too.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on January 28, 2016, 09:21:58 pm
You say that, but you've made the poor lad have to write a new chapter! ;)

And get a new cover drawing done...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on January 28, 2016, 09:35:16 pm
Sorry, I've been driving all day and want to go back a page or so to comment on record recognition.

A record is what people want to believe it is. Some 40-50 years ago, when I was a callow yoof and did quite a lot of fishing, the British Record Fish Committee put their heads together and decided that a lot of British records were so long ago and the circumstances surrounding the capture of said fish were so doubtful that they would scrap a lot of records and start again. One record which was sacrosanct was Dick Walker's 44lb carp. He caught it in 1952 in Herefordshire and transported it in a van to London Zoo, where it lived until 1971. Walker was a very well respected angler, writer and journalist and he had photographic evidence of the fish when freshly caught. However, no evidence existed that he caught it legally on rod & line. Everyone trusted him.

The irony was that the BRFC stated that for certain species the record was "open" to claims over a certain weight. Walker had well-documented evidence of having caught a number of fish above the so-called "record" but none of his previous captures were recognised - I don't think he wanted them to be.

One of the most ridiculous records to be discarded was John Garvin's 53lb pike, caught in an Irish lough in the early 20th century, along with the fact that it regurgitated a 10lb salmon before it was weighed. There is no question that pike of this size exist (the largest pike with strong evidence was a 72lber caught in Loch Ken some time in the 19th century).I think most pike anglers still accept Garvin's as the record, and also the "modern" record which is in the low 40s. I don't know what the "modern" record is now, although one holder was That Gareth Edwards.

I think it is unfortunate that Bruce has chosen not to fit in with the standards set by Steve & Kurt, but I do not doubt for one moment that he is doing the miles he claims. If he does beat Kurt's record with his very solo attempt without raising suspicions about his bona fides, then I think in years to come people will recognise his efforts, even though it is outside the auspices of any organisation other than Strava. However, we are only 4 weeks in. I would be very surprised, and even more impressed than I have already been by Steve and Kurt, if he can pull this off.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 28, 2016, 09:41:29 pm
You say that, but you've made the poor lad have to write a new chapter! ;)

And get a new cover drawing done...

And I have just finished it: a thoroughly good read.  People who wish to comment on the authenticity of the various attempts might do well to read the final paragraphs of Dave's book. 

I found just one small, technical error.  ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on January 28, 2016, 11:46:01 pm
You say that, but you've made the poor lad have to write a new chapter! ;)

And get a new cover drawing done...

And I have just finished it: a thoroughly good read.  People who wish to comment on the authenticity of the various attempts might do well to read the final paragraphs of Dave's book. 

I found just one small, technical error.  ;)

PBP frequency?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 29, 2016, 10:05:12 am

PBP frequency?

Ah, that might have been another.  No, the relative size of 27" and 700C.  It's complicated by the fact that you could be said to be right in a technical sense.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 29, 2016, 10:10:15 am
It's interesting to compare RAAM with the Transamerica Race. I was under the impression that RAAM was promoted by the UMCA, and that the Transamerica Race was a free-standing event. It turns out that the opposite is true. RAAM has been sold off as a separate entity, and the Transamerica Race is promoted by the Adventure Cycling Association. That organisation predates RAAM, and is more of a touring organisation. https://www.adventurecycling.org/about-us/

We went to see the film about the Transamerica when it was premiered at Sheffield in June. It was good, but it seemed to be mainly a comedy about one of the participants and a couple of Italian blokes. The presence of the film crew also made us wonder about the purity of the 'self-supporting' aspect. That's because of the positive impact of observation on performance, rather than any cheating.

I'm all in favour of making cycling as accessible as possible, and RAAM seems to erect a big capital barrier to entry. I can't see any reason to extend that barrier to other endeavours, so Bruce is doing something laudable in my book.

Perversely, I'd be even more impressed if I happened upon a report of someone who'd already beaten the record last year, but hadn't wanted to be seen as a show-off. I don't think that's possible in terms of motivation, you have to tell people you're doing something like this to tie yourself into it.

Technology has made it possible to observe these events in real time, and through video diaries, visible around the world, without apparent mediation. I say apparent, because obviously Strava and Youtube are the media involved.
I like that because there isn't a anyone to interpret what we're seeing, as things get altered for a mass audience.

How's Bruce doing by the way?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on January 29, 2016, 10:42:22 am
Sore legs, I believe from FB.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on January 29, 2016, 10:46:54 am
sore knee comment on twitter (could be repeated on FB)
Picture of remedial cream, hasn't knee problems dogged him before
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 29, 2016, 10:52:20 am
Both his LEJOGLE record attempts ended due to knee problems.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: tom_e on January 29, 2016, 12:17:07 pm
We went to see the film about the Transamerica when it was premiered at Sheffield in June. It was good, but it seemed to be mainly a comedy about one of the participants and a couple of Italian blokes. The presence of the film crew also made us wonder about the purity of the 'self-supporting' aspect. That's because of the positive impact of observation on performance, rather than any cheating.

I kind of like this.  Taken to it's logical extreme, to be purely self supported one would have to maintain motivation despite not telling anyone of your endeavour.  At the end, your achievement is all your own and you keep it that way.  Hardcore rather than Web 2.0, certainly.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on January 29, 2016, 01:06:31 pm

PBP frequency?

Ah, that might have been another.  No, the relative size of 27" and 700C.  It's complicated by the fact that you could be said to be right in a technical sense.

Yes another fella contacted me about that one. I think I need to reword it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 29, 2016, 01:39:21 pm
There was a lad in our club who would ride up to Carlisle and back on his own. That's about 200 miles, I saw him just South Of Lancaster one day, I was doing a hedgelaying competition on the A6 verge and he was on his way back.

He'd had adult meningitis, and it made him a bit mercurial, and poor with detail. The club secretary despaired of him, as he was good at club 10s but couldn't be persuaded to enter open events.

He rode a local 200 Audax, that allowed entries on the line, with Bill Nickson. Bill thought it was weird that people were flogging themselves in February if they had no races lined up. Bill's a noted pro from the 80s, but likes to take off with a saddlebag for a Youth Hostel tour.

I need a definite date in my diary to do long rides, because I'm innately lazy. So I admire those with the 'get up and go' to just get up and go.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 29, 2016, 01:42:27 pm

PBP frequency?

Ah, that might have been another.  No, the relative size of 27" and 700C.  It's complicated by the fact that you could be said to be right in a technical sense.



Yes another fella contacted me about that one. I think I need to reword it.

But that's mere detail.  It's a compulsive read.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 29, 2016, 02:18:32 pm
It's a complicated area, 27' sprint rims and tubs are the same diameter as 700c sprints and tubs. 27x1 1/4s wire-ons are bigger diameter, that's why the brakes of Record Ace's of that period have such long slots, to allow the use of either.

(http://oldspokeshome.com/sites/default/files/7-rra-1939-fbrake.jpg)



That's from a 1939 RRA with a 4 speed hub and a cyclometer in a museum in Vermont. Godwin mainly rode an Ivory model, but there's mention of a black one, which would have been like that, apart from the post-war brakes.

http://www.oldspokeshome.com/raleigh-record-ace-1939
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 29, 2016, 04:28:20 pm
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on January 29, 2016, 05:01:04 pm
Quiet everyone! Now Matt's fallen asleep too! Let's put his hand in a bowl of lukewarm water and see if he wees himself.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: andyoxon on January 29, 2016, 05:25:02 pm
You say that, but you've made the poor lad have to write a new chapter! ;)

And get a new cover drawing done...

...could turn into an annual.    ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 29, 2016, 06:12:45 pm
27' rims?  The mind boggles...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on January 29, 2016, 06:17:19 pm
27' rims?  The mind boggles...

Pedant!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 29, 2016, 06:21:16 pm
27' rims?  The mind boggles...

These rims go to 11!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ImNhPSVeFUW8HLiqG7e8AJ_FRO0_MgaEoOR1V78BDRYxuIiL0SVMaKiT_CsQ-QKmFkvtt_8E9SgogFz64w2x9m9LXpy_vKHzXHq9I3vF-2BJWCmNOjUIwzyDpmcXHINUiKlhpE5HX7A3i8juqVe0mU4TRAvp-mndgIbjWQKmN9E1It5L93pzElHZjGJvGtKsVhlA4Fd24pvat1eyMYzcfDjb0c9iyejFN2v-0XtMhGxAaHK-TiYi6624t_xIKzAzZHdopS7Re9zvDnNKCb120pxDbMdCMWo-Y1EaIGXhHGtt4123alIp7p8i6nIwapBYce5O1aLBB2RVlpA-NKOx8TA7L9Ocb37-GUwv74WoDniVpLS-o3EcCOcp9oklY7UKD5jbDwai3XSpARqFBEcYcikxiC46JaUd3lfjh0UbZLkYUstmVnfvd873MK7s0H7mAxnFrUMWBsR0d5VdChp74sxmlQwqyup4gSxGQz_xsCb1dXPZEPqZfqQLIk_cf_AnvwPUJriHxqGEOetSQbFYiJv-B02aneuQePUfI8olFntjjWNENpEdUQmRu77npKv7meEJ=w710-h538-no)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 29, 2016, 06:48:45 pm
Quiet everyone! Now Matt's fallen asleep too! Let's put his hand in a bowl of lukewarm water and see if he wees himself.
<yawns>

Did it work? I've always wondered!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 29, 2016, 06:51:59 pm
What do you think woke you up?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on January 30, 2016, 08:26:28 am
I'd be more concerned that Matt doesn't know if he wee'd himself or not.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on January 30, 2016, 09:27:23 am
I'd be more concerned that Matt doesn't know if he wee'd himself or not.
If I'm asleep, I dont know if its mine or jo's.

(How's Bruce getting on?!? )
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 30, 2016, 09:46:29 am
no more news about the knee
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Clemo on January 30, 2016, 10:18:34 am
According to Strava 197.6 miles yesterday, yearly total so far 6,324.2 miles so far! and the knee is still playing up.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on January 30, 2016, 11:56:29 am
no more news about the knee

Two hours ago Bruce tweeted a photo of a tube of Voltaren and "Had to use more of this and a whole lot of MTFU, leg still a bit off".
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on January 30, 2016, 12:00:54 pm
so far 6,324.2 miles so far!

Granted it's rather a long way but no need for hyperbole old chap.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 30, 2016, 04:54:01 pm
In my experience knees that cause problems need rest. The bad knees and twitter posts are not a good sign. You can push through the pain for a while, but eventually rest is required.

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 30, 2016, 06:01:14 pm
no more news about the knee

Two hours ago Bruce tweeted a photo of a tube of Voltaren and "Had to use more of this and a whole lot of MTFU, leg still a bit off".
Ugh, I hope it sorts soon, not a lot of accommodation for mtfu in hamr
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: ElyDave on January 31, 2016, 09:27:30 pm
Wot's appenin'? I haven't read this to days - is he still going? Got a tracker yet?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: MrDrem on January 31, 2016, 09:36:32 pm
I've just updated https://goo.gl/RBHtiS with the latest rides from Bruce.

Currently he's 297.7 miles up on where Kurt was at this point, but is only 50.3 miles up on his average pace, having dropped back from a high of 127.5 miles up on average pace 3 days ago.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 01, 2016, 09:01:07 am
Wot's appenin'? I haven't read this to days - is he still going? Got a tracker yet?
Nope

No tracker, getting sore knees, spirits seem to be good. gave himself a rest day of 171km
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 01, 2016, 07:58:58 pm
from bruce, when asked if he was " going to try to get the official bit of it on track or is that just an unresonable bunch that run that side of the record attempt ?"

Quote
Just going to continue riding the bike mate, don't have the time for all that bollocks and if I do it, its there for everyone to see anyway!

Bruce is the unreasonable one, IMO
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on February 01, 2016, 08:04:30 pm
I hope he enjoys his riding this year. It won't be a record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rafletcher on February 01, 2016, 09:41:26 pm
It will be as far as he's concerned, and that's all he cares about it seems.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on February 01, 2016, 09:43:49 pm
It will be as far as he's concerned, and that's all he cares about it seems.

So it seems ... but history won't care about that.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jacamo on February 02, 2016, 12:36:56 am
My gut tells me that he'll throw in the towel before 4 months is out and none of this will matter anyway.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: tonyh on February 02, 2016, 09:39:14 am
Whatever happens, go Bruce, best wishes to you!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Mr Larrington on February 02, 2016, 10:43:37 am
My gut tells me that he'll throw in the towel before 4 months is out and none of this will matter anyway.

I recall at the tail end of 2014 some commentators opining that Kurt would blow up by Easter 2015 and that'd be the last anyone would ever hear of him.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on February 02, 2016, 10:46:52 am
I thought Kurt would have head problems perhaps 1/4 or 1/3 through the year. He wobbled around that time but Alicia changed things around enough to keep him going.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 02, 2016, 10:51:40 am
I think it's good that someone is carrying the torch for the new generation of Strava riders. It's a very accessible form of cycle sport. I don't think I would have got deeper into cycling if I hadn't had access to 'enter on the line' 10 and 25 mile club TTs  in the mid 1990s.

Strava seems to conform to some of that ethos, but with more flexibility. Bruce will get enough of a following to encourage him on, but the physical demands remain the same.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: zigzag on February 02, 2016, 11:08:11 am
I hope he enjoys his riding this year. It won't be a record.

for some people it will, for some it won't. everyone of us have different perspectives of how we see things and the meanings we give. Bruce seems to be a free spirit enjoying (i hope!..) what he's doing and best of luck to him in this challenge.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 02, 2016, 11:12:59 am
My gut tells me that he'll throw in the towel before 4 months is out and none of this will matter anyway.

I recall at the tail end of 2014 some commentators opining that Kurt would blow up by Easter 2015 and that'd be the last anyone would ever hear of him.
I might have been one of those people.

Kurt, and the dear Whip won me round.
Good humour, good sportsmanship, being respectful; they both have it in droves.

Bruce and his supporters; nope. They don't. Even rude stuff said about Kurt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 02, 2016, 11:18:40 am
I used to belong to a distinctly low-key club, the Central Lancs RC. All our club records were within reach. Then Joe Pinon-Shaw joined, and put them all on the shelf. That took some of the fun out of it, and the club folded a couple of years later.
I foresee a similar process with Strava, all the KOMs etc. will fall to Elite riders, and Strava will fragment into clubs.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on February 02, 2016, 11:49:55 am
Strava have new "yearly" KOM/QOM's now, probably for this very reason.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 02, 2016, 11:53:27 am
That's what will make Strava a dubious medium for records. Its function is to motivate the current users, not to intimidate them.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TigaSefi on February 02, 2016, 12:53:43 pm
bit off topic but i don't use strava for seeing how fast I went on a ride. I use it to record my rides and see what i have been doing for the last couple of years because apparently it rather easy to forget that you actually did a ride that you have forgotten all about!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on February 02, 2016, 12:56:18 pm
That's what will make Strava a dubious medium for records. Its function is to motivate the current users, not to intimidate them.
And it will evolve to meet that need over time. It might be utterly different 5 years from now (they might make a deal with a particular gadget company and tie the whole thing into that).

records are fiddled with a bit, but basically the concept is fixed!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on February 02, 2016, 12:58:00 pm
That's what will make Strava a dubious medium for records. Its function is to motivate the current users, not to intimidate them.

Stava is social media. Its user base is quite specific, composed primarily of runners and cyclists. It's still social media though, whose primary function is basically "Everyone look at me! Aren't I great?"

Instagram: social media for camera phone users who post selfies or pics of the great places they've been, people they've met, even stuff they've eaten, etc.
Strava: social media for Garmin* users who post GPX tracks of the places they've been, speeds and distances they've achieved, altitudes climbed, etc.

* - Other GPS devices are available.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 02, 2016, 01:02:17 pm
I foresee Strava evolving into something like the Veteran Time Trials Association, with standards for age groups. An interesting point about VTTA standards is that they've become more stringent at most distances, but the 12 and 24 hour standards have become easier, as more Audaxers ride them, and they've been revised in line with actual performances.
http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=70426
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on February 02, 2016, 01:16:38 pm
I foresee Strava evolving into something like the Veteran Time Trials Association, with standards for age groups.

If you're a premium member you can already filter results by age or weight
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 02, 2016, 03:07:32 pm
Age and weight are self-reported stats. There are people who will happily mislead others to move up the rankings.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on February 02, 2016, 03:19:38 pm
...There are people who will happily mislead others to move up the rankings.

Yes, that's Strava all over.

Cycling segment records with average speeds >50kph, running segment records with average speeds >25kph, etc.

(They tend to only last a few days before they get removed, but they appear again pretty soon, so it's a constant battle that Strava face to keep the data even vaguely clean.)

Some stay for longer, for example: https://www.strava.com/segments/1306535/leaderboard?filter=overall

66.5kph round part of a roundabout and then over the bridge. Uh-hu. (One of the #7s in that list is legitimate though.)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TigaSefi on February 02, 2016, 03:36:22 pm
...There are people who will happily mislead others to move up the rankings.

Yes, that's Strava all over.

Cycling segment records with average speeds >50kph, running segment records with average speeds >25kph, etc.

(They tend to only last a few days before they get removed, but they appear again pretty soon, so it's a constant battle that Strava face to keep the data even vaguely clean.)

Some stay for longer, for example: https://www.strava.com/segments/1306535/leaderboard?filter=overall

66.5kph round part of a roundabout and then over the bridge. Uh-hu. (One of the #7s in that list is legitimate though.)

Well..... if it is dry and you got tailwind across the bridge and if you take a massive wide line into the apex, you might be able to do it..... And oh yeah no cars, no ambulances, no rickshaws etc....
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on February 02, 2016, 04:16:17 pm
...There are people who will happily mislead others to move up the rankings.

Yes, that's Strava all over.

Cycling segment records with average speeds >50kph, running segment records with average speeds >25kph, etc.

(They tend to only last a few days before they get removed, but they appear again pretty soon, so it's a constant battle that Strava face to keep the data even vaguely clean.)

Some stay for longer, for example: https://www.strava.com/segments/1306535/leaderboard?filter=overall

66.5kph round part of a roundabout and then over the bridge. Uh-hu. (One of the #7s in that list is legitimate though.)

Segments of 200m are utterly pointless, especially in urban areas, as the start/end points are hugely influenced by the vagaries of the GPS location accuracy, especially if a mobile device is being used. I wish Strava would just delete anything <1km and prevent their creation.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: teethgrinder on February 02, 2016, 04:26:57 pm
That's what will make Strava a dubious medium for records. Its function is to motivate the current users, not to intimidate them.

Stava is social media. Its user base is quite specific, composed primarily of runners and cyclists. It's still social media though, whose primary function is basically "Everyone look at me! Aren't I great?"

Instagram: social media for camera phone users who post selfies or pics of the great places they've been, people they've met, even stuff they've eaten, etc.
Strava: social media for Garmin* users who post GPX tracks of the places they've been, speeds and distances they've achieved, altitudes climbed, etc.

* - Other GPS devices are available.

Strava isn't just for Garmin, it's just that Garmin are probably the most dominant for GPSs.
Garmin are trying to promote their Garmin Connect, presumably to pull the rug out from Strava, but I think Strava probably has too much of a stronghold now. KOMing is now common terminology.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: menthel on February 02, 2016, 04:29:52 pm
That's what will make Strava a dubious medium for records. Its function is to motivate the current users, not to intimidate them.

Stava is social media. Its user base is quite specific, composed primarily of runners and cyclists. It's still social media though, whose primary function is basically "Everyone look at me! Aren't I great?"

Instagram: social media for camera phone users who post selfies or pics of the great places they've been, people they've met, even stuff they've eaten, etc.
Strava: social media for Garmin* users who post GPX tracks of the places they've been, speeds and distances they've achieved, altitudes climbed, etc.

* - Other GPS devices are available.

Strava isn't just for Garmin, it's just that Garmin are probably the most dominant for GPSs.
Garmin are trying to promote their Garmin Connect, presumably to pull the rug out from Strava, but I think Strava probably has too much of a stronghold now. KOMing is now common terminology.

They tried and failed- Garmin had their own segments but then just caved in and allowed strava integration into the edge range. They knew they did too little, too late. I gave up on the "competitive" element of Strava a long time ago. The recording of cycling and effort side is very good, though as can be the social side.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wajcgac on February 02, 2016, 05:04:19 pm
Strava have new "yearly" KOM/QOM's now, probably for this very reason.

They did this from Jan 1st 2015 but surprisingly didn't repeat it for 2016
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on February 02, 2016, 05:56:21 pm
Strava have new "yearly" KOM/QOM's now, probably for this very reason.

They did this from Jan 1st 2015 but surprisingly didn't repeat it for 2016

Probably because after the first few weeks of the year it was utterly pointless? And in those first few weeks you got hundreds of meaningless top 10 for 2015 awards as you were amongst the first few to cycle that segment in that year.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Somnolent on February 02, 2016, 06:04:53 pm
Age and weight are self-reported stats. There are people who will happily mislead others to move up the rankings.

Not the only self-reported information:
One of Mrs Somnolent's QOMs was stolen by somebody who thought to move up the rankings by misleading others about his gender !  :o
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on February 02, 2016, 07:30:42 pm
I don't think Strava has much of a clue of what to do with itself now. It's been successful for the founders and early employees (which is part of the problem with SV startups, there's little longevity).

It seems to be following a rather typical Silicon Valley startup trajectory:-
1) Come up with a novel idea and build a site for it, plus an app, etc
2) Get some funding and grow as fast as you can
3) Get quite big, get more funding, founders and early employees are pretty much now set for life
4) Try and work out where to get more income from as membership alone isn't going to meet expectations. Adverts? (boo), Selling data? (boo), etc.
5) Panic add more and more Social Media related features
6) Await buyout from large SM company (Facebook/Google/etc) or, if that doesn't come, a smaller buyout from a tech company (Garmin, etc) for a much cheaper price

The SM companies buy companies for their user numbers. The tech companies buy them for easier integrations. One of these is good for the end users.

It's said that you know when an app/site/etc has 'jumped the shark' when it implements some form of 'chat' or 'messenger' feature.

Other than the 'fly-bys' stuff, I haven't seen anything innovative from Strava for ages. It's Garmin integration is very poor and shows hardly any of the useful stats for running or swimming (compared to Garmin Connect at least). Their response to suggestions from their userbase is almost non-existent.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 02, 2016, 07:50:22 pm
Not sure what any of this has to do with Bruce, but, in the expectation that the Strava tangent will get moved...

Strava is actually doing rather well. It has captured the imagination of cyclists and runners worldwide, though it's most prevalent in the English-speaking world just now. It is, as Greenbank says, a social medium and it does need to earn a living from its efforts, but it has no significant competitors having seen off Garmin's pathetic attempt, and wiped the floor with anything Under Armour can come up with. Like Hoover, it's become ubiquitous in its field and it continues to develop. Those YACF members still flogging along with manually updating MCL might care to note that Strava now includes annual goals and progress charts, and the analysis modes continue to increase.

Strava does have to monetise its business, and it's been a bit shy about that, but I put that down to the fact that its owners are actually exercise enthusiasts who aren't out to screw their customers. Compare and contrast with Facebook... However, the fact that almost every other online exercise platform now interfaces with Strava, and that the company is now sponsoring cycle racing (such as The Women's Tour), means that the Pro subscription-based service is becoming more attractive. I anticipate that it will get more features, and more separation from the free service, though I think that will always be a useful offering. Advertising will come - on the free service, as is common on phone apps - and it won't be long before other exercise data gatherers (such as Garmin) will pay for Strava to provide their data engines.

As for Bruce, how's he doing?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on February 02, 2016, 08:34:35 pm
As for Bruce, how's he doing?

I've posted an update on the OYTT visualization thread (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=87407.msg1984531#msg1984531).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: jochta on February 02, 2016, 10:28:59 pm
BTW VeloViewer and StravistiX make Strava data much more useful and interesting IMO.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 02, 2016, 10:33:57 pm
BTW VeloViewer and StravistiX make Strava data much more useful and interesting IMO.

I've not used Stravistics, but I'm a pro member of Veloviewer, which is a stats-nerd's nirvana!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on February 02, 2016, 10:40:39 pm

Strava does have to monetise its business, and it's been a bit shy about that, but I put that down to the fact that its owners are actually exercise enthusiasts who aren't out to screw their customers. Compare and contrast with Facebook... However, the fact that almost every other online exercise platform now interfaces with Strava, and that the company is now sponsoring cycle racing (such as The Women's Tour), means that the Pro subscription-based service is becoming more attractive. I anticipate that it will get more features, and more separation from the free service, though I think that will always be a useful offering. Advertising will come - on the free service, as is common on phone apps - and it won't be long before other exercise data gatherers (such as Garmin) will pay for Strava to provide their data engines.


They are already. They are selling their data to local authorities and transport bodies who are interested in recreational/commuting traffic patterns. They probably now have a superb elevation data set as well as they can process all of the barometric data they receive from GPS units against DEM data to arrive at close to true heights for roads and trails. Finally they will start selling your personal data to advertisers who want to know more about you. I suspect we will not see intrusive ads on Strava as your data is worth more to them than your ad clicks.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 02, 2016, 10:43:52 pm
Indeed - the Strava Labs collective commuter heatmaps have featured here before, and I'm aware that more than a couple of cities are starting to frame their cycling policy discussions with them in mind.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 02, 2016, 11:10:16 pm
There's a guy in the Woodland Trust who's a keen Strava user, and he's now in charge of a large tract of land behind Rivington Pike near Bolton, and he's using Strava to assess MTB use.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ivo on February 03, 2016, 09:14:07 am
I do 'blame' Strava partially for the recent increase in brevet entries in the Netherlands. Last year there was only a handful of riders doing a 200 in mid winter. This year we offered a brevet in january and immediately 76 entries, about half of them new. Quite a lot of them are on Strava. I think that the Strava influence is twofold:
-People have seen that it is possible to do a 200 in january even if you're not a pro;
-It keeps you nicely towards to top of the charts on one of the Strava classifications.
I'd rate this as a positive influence.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 03, 2016, 09:30:13 am
We get elite racers doing club time trials around here. They also ride 200s as training in the winter, in the same way as they ride 'reliabilities'. The documentation aspect of Strava enables coaches to assess their performance.
Bruce is an extreme example of an exemplar, showing what is possible.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on February 03, 2016, 09:48:15 am
Age and weight are self-reported stats. There are people who will happily mislead others to move up the rankings.

Not the only self-reported information:
One of Mrs Somnolent's QOMs was stolen by somebody who thought to move up the rankings by misleading others about his gender !  :o

I really don't understand this, the competition thing is a total red herring for example: https://www.strava.com/segments/8343695 I know a number on that list and am far and away the weakest rider, but on one day wind and traffic came together perfectly. Strava segments are primarily about wearing grooves in the road. The daily thing is entertaining in places when the usual suspects are leaving work a few mins apart, other than that its a nice logging tool that just works, unlike Garmin's software IME where for some reason it logs every ride 3 times and Garmin give their usual level of support.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on February 03, 2016, 09:56:17 am
I'd expect the vast majority of cyclists that have coaches to be using TrainingPeaks (non-free) rather than Strava.

Even Garmin Connect (free) is way way better than Strava's Premium technical analysis.

On the Social front, nothing comes close to Strava but many people only post to Strava because they use something like Tapiriik to sync their data across multiple sites.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 03, 2016, 10:16:22 am
Training Peaks complements Strava quite well, though I'm not sure it's worth paying for both (I do, because I can and I'm a nerd, but I also pay for Trainer Roads, Zwift and have only just given up on BKool!!). I don't get on with Connect and find it unreliably accessible, particularly if you have a less than stellar broadband facility, but when it's working it does provide reasonable analysis tools, though I wouldn't claim they're better than Strava Premium - you do need to get 'under the hood' a bit with Strava to discover the full range of analysis available.

I just need the ability to make it worthwhile. Which might possibly involve riding a bike rather more often than I do!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ivo on February 03, 2016, 10:42:33 am
Age and weight are self-reported stats. There are people who will happily mislead others to move up the rankings.

Not the only self-reported information:
One of Mrs Somnolent's QOMs was stolen by somebody who thought to move up the rankings by misleading others about his gender !  :o

There's more about Strava as only segments. The various monthly competitions regarding longest total distance, longest daily distance and most altitude gained are far more interesting for audaxers as chasing KOM's.
I really don't understand this, the competition thing is a total red herring for example: https://www.strava.com/segments/8343695 I know a number on that list and am far and away the weakest rider, but on one day wind and traffic came together perfectly. Strava segments are primarily about wearing grooves in the road. The daily thing is entertaining in places when the usual suspects are leaving work a few mins apart, other than that its a nice logging tool that just works, unlike Garmin's software IME where for some reason it logs every ride 3 times and Garmin give their usual level of support.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on February 03, 2016, 10:43:02 am
9pm and nothing posted for Bruce today. Usually posts around 7...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Greenbank on February 03, 2016, 11:32:13 am
Training Peaks complements Strava quite well, though I'm not sure it's worth paying for both (I do, because I can and I'm a nerd, but I also pay for Trainer Roads, Zwift and have only just given up on BKool!!). I don't get on with Connect and find it unreliably accessible, particularly if you have a less than stellar broadband facility, but when it's working it does provide reasonable analysis tools, though I wouldn't claim they're better than Strava Premium - you do need to get 'under the hood' a bit with Strava to discover the full range of analysis available.

It's more the accuracy of Strava that is the problem, it's slated on various different forums by good (e.g. Cat 1/2) cyclists. It's interpretation of power data (and specifically how it calculates the weighted averages) is seemingly random which is why many people prefer TrainingPeaks. The weighted average is key to calculating TSS and thence form/fitness (CTL/ATL). It's also hard to get out the key metrics such as 5s/1m/5m/20m peak power from a single ride, and impossible to plot these over time (which is where something like TP or even Golden Cheetah comes in).

Put simply: if you want a tool to help you make measurable improvements then Strava isn't the one. I guess most people don't realise what they are seeing isn't quite accurate, or they're happy with just seeing a bunch of numbers without the bits that are needed to help them improve.

The 'fitness and freshness' graph (Strava's take on TSS/CTL/ATL/etc) is rendered completely useless if you combine cycling with running as it doesn't take into account the running at all. It can't be used for planning either (unlike TP). I've got a far better CTL/ATL model in a simple google spreadsheet. Given Strava's graph is based on dodgy calculations of cycling training impact it's of dubious use to begin with, even if you're just using it for cycling. Other than this graph there's no other inter-activity graphing available. Want to plot average speed over time? Nope. Want to plot HRavg over time? Nope.

Strava's also dreadful at interpreting non-moving time when running (I've had a bug open with them for over a year that they've done nothing on and is just building up a huge list of other frustrated members who are not also renewing). Strava doesn't handle any of the modern metrics that are coming from the latest running devices, not that every single one of them is useful to the average runner but they should at least be able to display them. The pace graph for a run on Strava is horrible to read (due to the auto scaling) to the point that it's unusable. It's graphs, in general, aren't fine grained enough at all.

I'd do some side-by-side shots of individual activities but I didn't renew my Strava Premium membership.

The key is that if the tool is to be useful then either interpret the data correctly (which Garmin Connect seems to do fine) or allow a way to edit the data (which TP and Golden Cheetah do). Strava does neither and so you end up with the worst of both worlds.

Don't get me started on Strava's interpretation of swimming data, it's beyond laughable:-

Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/465613915
GC: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1007469059

Anyway, this is beyond a digression now.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: DaveE128 on February 03, 2016, 01:50:03 pm
Put simply: if you want a tool to help you make measurable improvements then Strava isn't the one. I guess most people don't realise what they are seeing isn't quite accurate, or they're happy with just seeing a bunch of numbers without the bits that are needed to help them improve.

The 'fitness and freshness' graph (Strava's take on TSS/CTL/ATL/etc) is rendered completely useless if you combine cycling with running as it doesn't take into account the running at all. It can't be used for planning either (unlike TP). I've got a far better CTL/ATL model in a simple google spreadsheet. Given Strava's graph is based on dodgy calculations of cycling training impact it's of dubious use to begin with, even if you're just using it for cycling. Other than this graph there's no other inter-activity graphing available. Want to plot average speed over time? Nope. Want to plot HRavg over time? Nope.

Have you tried http://veloviewer.com/ ?

Does provide some of the things you mention from your Strava data and it's only £10 a year I think. It's fun for data geekery and good for comparing your mileage progress through the year with previous years too.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 03, 2016, 01:58:40 pm
Anyway, this is beyond a digression now.

It is, but it's interesting and no-one's objected (yet) or moved it, so...

I've never used any online analysis for swimming, but I can understand why you'd find Strava inadequate for that. However, Strava is primarily a cyclist's tool - and, at that, really an amateur or clubman's tool. It certainly could be better at some things than it is, but I'd guess that the budget isn't, or hasn't been, there for much beyond the process of recording progress over the ground and collating that data for comparison with others. As I said, it works well in conjunction with TP, and I would certainly expect anyone with a coach to use TP, among other tools, and not simply rely on Strava. But many people can't afford to pay monthly fees for these sites and so have to settle for one; for most people, most of the time, Strava is fun, interesting and accurate enough on a casual level, and it succinctly enables you to compare stuff with your mates.

I could certainly see Strava developing a more professional product for competitive athletes (I'm amazed they haven't bought out Veloviewer yet), and they do need to better integrate running - and maybe swimming - into the current offering. If I were working on the software side for Garmin or TP, I'd be very concerned about what Strava might do next...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 03, 2016, 02:00:17 pm
Put simply: if you want a tool to help you make measurable improvements then Strava isn't the one. I guess most people don't realise what they are seeing isn't quite accurate, or they're happy with just seeing a bunch of numbers without the bits that are needed to help them improve.

The 'fitness and freshness' graph (Strava's take on TSS/CTL/ATL/etc) is rendered completely useless if you combine cycling with running as it doesn't take into account the running at all. It can't be used for planning either (unlike TP). I've got a far better CTL/ATL model in a simple google spreadsheet. Given Strava's graph is based on dodgy calculations of cycling training impact it's of dubious use to begin with, even if you're just using it for cycling. Other than this graph there's no other inter-activity graphing available. Want to plot average speed over time? Nope. Want to plot HRavg over time? Nope.

Have you tried http://veloviewer.com/ ?

Does provide some of the things you mention from your Strava data and it's only £10 a year I think. It's fun for data geekery and good for comparing your mileage progress through the year with previous years too.
BTW VeloViewer and StravistiX make Strava data much more useful and interesting IMO.

I've not used Stravistics, but I'm a pro member of Veloviewer, which is a stats-nerd's nirvana!

Covered above...
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on February 03, 2016, 02:37:48 pm
The lack of a combined ATL/CTL score is a nuisance. Maybe I should look at TrainingPeaks again. It would be useful to be able to represent the rowing club training sessions.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on February 03, 2016, 04:17:16 pm
Given that I had to Google ATL/CTL, I reckon I'll stick with Strava  :)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: simonp on February 03, 2016, 04:22:32 pm
The TrainerRoad podcast explained a lot of the concepts. Particularly how IF is derived (it's basically NP divided by FTP) and TSS which is IF times duration in hours times 100.

ATL is basically how much short term fatigue you have and CTL how much accumulated training effect. The fitness and freshness scores on Strava are similar in concept.

All I really need is to know roughly what the TSS of my rowing sessions is.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on February 03, 2016, 04:41:03 pm
9pm and nothing posted for Bruce today. Usually posts around 7...

Seriously, does anyone know what happened to Bruce yesterday?

It is one of the ironies of his Strava only approach that without live tracking or body to submit alternative data to, there is going to be little evidence of the ride for the record if it turns out to be a GPS problem.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 03, 2016, 04:53:03 pm
IIRC, he was only carrying a single Edge 1000. That leaves him very vulnerable to any gremlins.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TigaSefi on February 03, 2016, 04:56:08 pm
I remember Shu Pillinger had 3-4 garmins for her RAAM ride and she had LOADS of problems which is why so many bits of her rides were missing. (I know she had the time limit on her mind first and foremost)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on February 03, 2016, 06:24:03 pm
The TrainerRoad podcast explained a lot of the concepts. Particularly how IF is derived (it's basically NP divided by FTP) and TSS which is IF times duration in hours times 100.

ATL is basically how much short term fatigue you have and CTL how much accumulated training effect. The fitness and freshness scores on Strava are similar in concept.

All I really need is to know roughly what the TSS of my rowing sessions is.

WTF, OMG. LOL.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: slope on February 03, 2016, 06:47:16 pm
The TrainerRoad podcast explained a lot of the concepts. Particularly how IF is derived (it's basically NP divided by FTP) and TSS which is IF times duration in hours times 100.

ATL is basically how much short term fatigue you have and CTL how much accumulated training effect. The fitness and freshness scores on Strava are similar in concept.

All I really need is to know roughly what the TSS of my rowing sessions is.

WTF, OMG. LOL.

 :thumbsup: And back to Bruce's efforts regardless of how we judge another

AND the SUBJECT of the THREAD TITLE

PLEASE?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on February 03, 2016, 07:14:14 pm
IIRC, he was only carrying a single Edge 1000. That leaves him very vulnerable to any gremlins.

Bruce is clearly a man with a very large flock of laying hens and only one basket.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on February 03, 2016, 08:36:30 pm
Last cycle_dr1 twitter post Jan 31st - hope he is OK.

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on February 03, 2016, 11:22:25 pm
IIRC, he was only carrying a single Edge 1000. That leaves him very vulnerable to any gremlins.

(http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/gremlins-2-the-new-batch-woman-gremlin-female.jpg)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aidan on February 04, 2016, 06:37:48 am
Last cycle_dr1 twitter post Jan 31st - hope he is OK.

BB

At least he's got the month record again :demon:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 04, 2016, 06:45:48 am
I dont see a ride for wednesday on strava. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on February 04, 2016, 12:53:18 pm
I dont see a ride for wednesday on strava. Am I missing something?

No uploads for 2 days now. Wonder what's up.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 04, 2016, 02:25:53 pm
His tweets haven't been making the Canyon Bikes page, which tends to suggest that he's not garnering enough interest. https://twitter.com/canyon_bikes
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on February 04, 2016, 02:28:17 pm
His tweets haven't been making the Canyon Bikes page, which tends to suggest that he's not garnering enough interest. https://twitter.com/canyon_bikes

Or that they are keeping their powder dry. If he succeeds, they've bought a lot of promo for their £3K or whatever. If he fails, nobody needs to know about it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on February 04, 2016, 02:34:04 pm
Bruce's bike is £5k+ worth, one of the top of line aeroads isn't it?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 04, 2016, 02:35:34 pm
His tweets haven't been making the Canyon Bikes page, which tends to suggest that he's not garnering enough interest. https://twitter.com/canyon_bikes

Or that they are keeping their powder dry. If he succeeds, they've bought a lot of promo for their £3K or whatever. If he fails, nobody needs to know about it.


Or they've twigged that most of the discussion is about the way he's being recorded, rather than the ride itself.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on February 04, 2016, 02:48:49 pm
Bruce's bike is £5k+ worth, one of the top of line aeroads isn't it?

...not cost to the manufacturer
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on February 04, 2016, 02:57:22 pm
Well I hope he's okay, and this is just a technical hitch.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on February 04, 2016, 04:31:35 pm
Bruce's bike is £5k+ worth, one of the top of line aeroads isn't it?

...not cost to the manufacturer

No but its a bike that could have been sold so whatever the cost was to build + the profit from sale is what they have invested.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on February 04, 2016, 08:56:04 pm
No sign of Bruce on Twitter still :(
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on February 04, 2016, 10:59:03 pm
A simple Tweet saying "GPS problems" or similar would put people's minds at ease, surely.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on February 04, 2016, 11:17:36 pm
Well, this is turning out a bit like the speculation regarding Steve last month.

I suppose the longer this goes on, the more likely it is that Bruce has packed it in.
For his sake I hope not, but whatever the issue is I hope it's not a serious health problem.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on February 05, 2016, 04:57:26 am
He posted yesterday. His Feb challenge now shows 625k in 4 days this month. Last comment "Still on the pedals, not right though."

Whatever the whys and wherefores of the validity of his record attempt, achieving only one-third of your target mileage only 5 weeks into the challenge does not augur well. I would suggest that any cyclist who has a record of injury to key body parts will suffer a recurrence sooner rather than later when attempting >300k every day, and Bruce hasn't hung around, either in terms of speed or hilly terrain.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on February 05, 2016, 05:15:08 am
102.7km posted for the 3/2/16 - Morning Ride, Knee issues again :-(
105.6km posted for the 4/2/16 - Morning Ride, on the pedals still not right though
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on February 05, 2016, 07:57:28 am
I think the uploads may have changed slightly as I now see no ride on the 4th Feb, but a couple on the 5th.

A few low milage days really illustrates the merciless cruelty of the challenge. All that effort climbing above the Searvogel line with a month of impressive riding is wiped out and more.

"Time trials are won, not by riding fast, but by not riding slow"

(http://gicentre.org/oytt/images/oytt2016_02_05a.png)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 05, 2016, 08:15:51 am
Comment from someone on strava next to his ride...

" Craig Northam - buckitbelts.com
Just to put something straight here guys - Guinness has always been officiating Bruce's records. They ratified his one-week record (recently broken, but only by 5km!) and his one-month record (here in Adelaide last year); and they continue to be his official record overseers. They are much more world recognized than the UMCA and are the gold standard for world records - just ask the average person in the street which one they've heard of - Guinness or UMCA! :)
 45 minutes ago "

Im not really interested in a debate on UMCA or Guinness ...but I am interested in if this statement is true or not?

Has it been proven if Guinness are ratifying his record attempt (if so where are the rules or confirmation of this)
Have Guinness now ratified his previous attempts?

Nothing against Bruce but im interested in the year record, not just watching someone eat miles on Strava (as hugely impressive as this is)  It would be nice to know if this is a record attempt, or just a very long ride with sponsorship?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 05, 2016, 09:11:23 am
I think that statement is complete bollocks.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: paul851 on February 05, 2016, 09:19:08 am
He's posted on Facebook this morning that
Quote
Hard start morning, shorter day on the pedals fixed the head
@lazerhelmets @LakeCycling @assos_com @boydcycling https://t.co/f0ceJJcxSy


Paul
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on February 05, 2016, 09:52:15 am
Comment from someone on strava next to his ride...

" Craig Northam - buckitbelts.com
Just to put something straight here guys - Guinness has always been officiating Bruce's records. They ratified his one-week record (recently broken, but only by 5km!) and his one-month record (here in Adelaide last year); and they continue to be his official record overseers. They are much more world recognized than the UMCA and are the gold standard for world records - just ask the average person in the street which one they've heard of - Guinness or UMCA! :)
 45 minutes ago "
Janet Davidson is down as the month record holder on their website.
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month
Im not really interested in a debate on UMCA or Guinness ...but I am interested in if this statement is true or not?

Has it been proven if Guinness are ratifying his record attempt (if so where are the rules or confirmation of this)
Have Guinness now ratified his previous attempts?

Nothing against Bruce but im interested in the year record, not just watching someone eat miles on Strava (as hugely impressive as this is)  It would be nice to know if this is a record attempt, or just a very long ride with sponsorship?
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month
Guinness only recognise Janet Davidson
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on February 05, 2016, 10:30:19 am
I sent an email to the GBR website enquiring whether a challenge had been lodged by Bruce Berkeley. I received a form response which gives the impression that they will only respond if I set up an account and log in, which ICBA to do.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mcshroom on February 05, 2016, 10:38:38 am
Glad to see he's back posting rides again, even if they are well below what is required at least it shows he hasn't been knocked off or similar :)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: NeilH on February 05, 2016, 11:14:43 am
Have Guinness now ratified his previous attempts?

I don't think so. As already pointed out by Freya, Janet Davidson is still listed by Guinness World Records as the Month Record holder. Guinness don't appear to list a "distance cycled in one week" record at all, that I can see, and David (aka Bruce) Berkeley doesn't appear to hold any Guinness recognised records ...

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/search?term=berkeley

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on February 05, 2016, 12:08:17 pm
I think the uploads may have changed slightly as I now see no ride on the 4th Feb, but a couple on the 5th.

A few low milage days really illustrates the merciless cruelty of the challenge. All that effort climbing above the Searvogel line with a month of impressive riding is wiped out and more.

"Time trials are won, not by riding fast, but by not riding slow"

(http://gicentre.org/oytt/images/oytt2016_02_05a.png)

+1 - the numbers are almost as merciless as the challenge.  Every day in which only 100 miles is ridden adds approximately 0.3 miles a day to the every other day in the year, and a blank day 0.57 miles per day.  So a half dozen bad days can mean the average for the rest going up to 210, 211....
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on February 05, 2016, 01:06:26 pm
couple of pics of Bruce from Beardy McBeard pulled from Instagram

looks like a Black/Orange Canyon Ultimate as opposed to the murdered out Canyon Aeroad from earlier in January

(http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y394/dansipods2/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-05%20at%2013.00.59_zpseygrwc50.png) (http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/dansipods2/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-05%20at%2013.00.59_zpseygrwc50.png.html)(http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y394/dansipods2/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-05%20at%2013.00.37_zpsf7igecrk.png) (http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/dansipods2/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-05%20at%2013.00.37_zpsf7igecrk.png.html)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on February 05, 2016, 01:27:40 pm
<Channels Skyrim>
I used to be a record contender like you, then I took an arrow to the knee.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on February 05, 2016, 06:49:51 pm
couple of pics of Bruce from Beardy McBeard pulled from Instagram
(http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y394/dansipods2/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-05%20at%2013.00.59_zpseygrwc50.png) (http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/dansipods2/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-05%20at%2013.00.59_zpseygrwc50.png.html)

I'm damn well impressed with the doughnuts he's been leaving on the tarmac. That is some power!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on February 05, 2016, 09:52:12 pm
Is it just me or is this attempt just looking dooooooooomed!

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wobbly on February 05, 2016, 10:20:18 pm
I think all attempts must look doomed at some point or other. That's the nature of the Massive Challenge involved.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 05, 2016, 11:27:27 pm
Is it just me or is this attempt just looking dooooooooomed!

BB
based on history, your statement heralds a bruce resurgence
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on February 06, 2016, 06:42:05 am
We're all dooooooooooomed.

There, I said it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 06, 2016, 09:34:16 am
He has gone from saying he was the official Guinness week and month record holder to saying he holds these records 'unofficially' but could claim them if he wants.   How can you claim any record unofficially?   How can you be sure you have already not been beaten by someone else's 'unofficial' attempt.   In the case of his week records all the evidence I can find shows that multiple RAAM competitors have beaten his unofficial record.

It would be really sad if he got very close to the record unofficially and then there was some debate over ratification that cast a shadow on 'The Year' or the previous competitors.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on February 06, 2016, 10:03:46 am
I have just "joined" the February distance challenge on Strava, just to see how many kilometres Bruce has ridden so far. In 5 days he has ridden "only" 976k, which is 2 whole days behind, in my book. There are two others ahead of him this month.

Curiously, there are two Essex riders in the top 6, one of whom is from Great Leighs, and therefore eligible for membership of the MEMWNS rides. I suggest that OD tries to recruit him.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on February 06, 2016, 09:03:17 pm
(http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y394/dansipods2/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-06%20at%2021.00.42_zpse0dnerby.png) (http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/dansipods2/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-06%20at%2021.00.42_zpse0dnerby.png.html)

(http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y394/dansipods2/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-06%20at%2021.00.16_zps5pnnkw1a.png) (http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/dansipods2/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-06%20at%2021.00.16_zps5pnnkw1a.png.html)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on February 06, 2016, 09:09:20 pm
That looks like a stock response to anyone who writes enquiring about a record attempt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 06, 2016, 09:16:14 pm
I think that strava title was aimed at me.... I feel quite proud!  I was really supportive of him on there in previous comments and then got into a discussion about his claimed records and the ratification of this attempt...and then his friends started sending me fairly threatening messages!    Strava hardmen - Ive heard it all now! A least if it comes down to a fight my 17 stone body will be a strava advantage at long last!

Apparently its fine that he is claiming two world records that belong to someone else and anyone who questions this should either 'fuck off' or 'go ride more miles'.   I saw Hoppo had backed up what I had said as true and also asked him to clarify his position on Guinness too but I dont know what was said because he then blocked me on Strava!

Its going to be very difficult for him to claim a Year record purely based on Strava miles if he blocks anyone on there who questions him!

Presumably if Guinness do not ratify his year record then he will just slag them off because they dont ride as far as him on strava, and then claim the record anyway. 

What a very strange individual.  I personally can not understand why you would continue to allow media to say you have world records that you clearly do not have?  It seems such a dodgy thing to do when you are relying on that organisation and the public to trust in your current record attempt
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Phil W on February 06, 2016, 09:26:25 pm
That looks like a stock response to anyone who writes enquiring about a record attempt.

Yes, it's a stock response, the proof will be in the pudding.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 06, 2016, 09:34:05 pm
So 6 weeks to process. He's had 12 months to sort out the Month record. So assuming he goes the distance, we can expect to be still waiting for the Year Record in 2029.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 06, 2016, 09:37:52 pm
I personally can not understand why you would continue to allow media to say you have world records that you clearly do not have?
I don't think that is the case; road.cc have retracted the oft-repeated statement about the month and week records.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on February 06, 2016, 09:39:39 pm
Probably because of the discussions here and elsewhere.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 06, 2016, 09:46:09 pm
I personally can not understand why you would continue to allow media to say you have world records that you clearly do not have?
I don't think that is the case; road.cc have retracted the oft-repeated statement about the month and week records.

Well there was multiple people still claiming he owns the records on his facebook and strava posts...and he has not once distanced himself from them.  He obviously reads it all because he soon blocked me for what I had said!  I wish him all the best... but calling out anyone who criticizes him in his ride descriptions seems to lack a bit of class.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 06, 2016, 09:48:46 pm
I personally can not understand why you would continue to allow media to say you have world records that you clearly do not have?
I don't think that is the case; road.cc have retracted the oft-repeated statement about the month and week records.

Well there was multiple people still claiming he owns the records on his facebook and strava posts...and he has not once distanced himself from them.  He obviously reads it all because he soon blocked me for what I had said!  I wish him all the best... but calling out anyone who criticizes him in his ride descriptions seems to lack a bit of class.
I lost all respect for him when he blanked Kurt.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on February 06, 2016, 09:51:44 pm
That looks like a stock response to anyone who writes enquiring about a record attempt.

Yes, it's a stock response, the proof will be in the pudding.

The mere fact that he thinks posting a stock letter will prove anything to anyone suggests he isn't quite on the ball (so to speak).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on February 06, 2016, 10:01:30 pm
I find the discussions on the Bruce's Strava posts really quite depressing. I guess it comes with the social media territory, but the comments seem to be  80% inane flattery ("You da monster dude!"), 10% genuine attempts, like Shaun's (is that you RedEye?), to find out what's going on with his validation, and 10% vitriolic putdowns of anyone who is not in the 80% category. Hoppo's somewhat blunt exclamation ridden prose comes across as considered and tactful in comparison. And Bruce's post title today doesn't really help matters.

I can't work out if Bruce is deluding himself with his stated belief that he has Guinness ratification of his past and current rides, or whether he has simply backed himself into a corner and finds it difficult to admit that he needs to take a different approach to have any credible recognition of a future record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 06, 2016, 10:17:48 pm
I had an email from a friend of Bruce's.

From what he said, Burce is extremely stubborn and utterly resistant to acquiescing to anything he views as 'authority'. 

The discussion on strava is mostly from australians. That's how a lot of them speak. Its a fact that immigrants were offered courses in understanding vernacular so they could tell whether they were being insulted or not.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 06, 2016, 10:20:32 pm
I find the discussions on the Bruce's Strava posts really quite depressing. I guess it comes with the social media territory, but the comments seem to be  80% inane flattery ("You da monster dude!"), 10% genuine attempts, like Shaun's (is that you RedEye?), to find out what's going on with his validation, and 10% vitriolic putdowns of anyone who is not in the 80% category. Hoppo's somewhat blunt exclamation ridden prose comes across as considered and tactful in comparison. And Bruce's post title today doesn't really help matters.

I can't work out if Bruce is deluding himself with his stated belief that he has Guinness ratification of his past and current rides, or wether he has simply backed himself into a corner and finds it difficult to admit that he needs to take a different approach to have any credible recognition of a future record.


Yeah - that's me! 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 06, 2016, 10:21:09 pm
It was notable that the last tweet referred to on here lacked a Canyon Bikes #. The media attention has died down after Steve stopped, and Bruce's validation had become an issue. Canyon might be avoiding being linked to that, and Bruce is feeling isolated.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Bianchi Boy on February 07, 2016, 06:16:53 pm
From what he said, Burce is extremely stubborn and utterly resistant to acquiescing to anything he views as 'authority'. 

Sooner or later Bruce will realise that all records are controlled by people with 'authority'. He should try ridding an open TT and then getting DQ'd because you do a U turn to get to the start line! Or now we have an unofficial 100 mile record in the UK because a course was measured 200m short. Who can remember the Australian female swimming team been DQ'd in an Olympic final after winning by 30m beacuse one of their team dived in before the last swimmer had completed the swim - some 30s after they had.

Please Bruce grow up. We do not all agree or like the way some things are ran, but that is the way of the world. Some things just have to be complied with.

BB
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on February 07, 2016, 06:57:20 pm
If he isn't interested in acquiescing to anything he views as 'authority' he really shouldn't be attempting ratified world records. Seems he wants it both ways - getting attention and sponsorship for attempting (and even claiming) records but not going through the hoops that others have had to put up with (at some cost both in terms of money/effort/time). 

Personally I'm not interested what he does with this attempt any longer - for me he is treating the record with disrespect.  I'm sure that wouldn't bother him a jot!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 07, 2016, 08:53:48 pm
Nobody gets their name up on the honours boards at school for cycling. That's for the 'classic' sporting events, the 100 metres, 400 metres, the mile at a push.

The shorter cycling events get some notice from the public, Chris Hoy and Bradley Wiggins are known for their Gold medals. The Tour de France is a big deal, but generally the further you go the less notice is taken, and the competition thins out. By the time you get to Audax, any pretence at pleasing the school sports teacher is long forgotten. The type of people riding them weren't generally "Good at Sports'.

That's why I'm not keen on the arena of stupidly long distance cycling being colonised by the kind of authority figures who put names up on boards on the wall. I can see how Bruce has had to embrace that idea of 'authority' to garner sponsorship, but claiming records but not doing the paperwork weakens the appeal of his ride to me. But it's not a deal-breaker. However I doubt that anyone can get through the year with so little support. If he did I'd be full of admiration.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: toontra on February 07, 2016, 09:11:58 pm
But there's the dichotomy.  He's obviously fairly adept at doing the paperwork to get commercial sponsorship.  He mentions several large companies that are supporting him.  The cynic in me says that he's perfectly capable of administration when he perceives it directly benefits him, so why not when it comes to Guinness or UMCA?  It's not as if this was a sudden decision - he was talking up the attempt many months ago
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: yossarian22 on February 08, 2016, 12:50:55 am
New to YACF and fantastic to find this forum for Bruce Berkley cycling endeavors. His first month was very strong but recently his kilometerage seems to have dropped.  Reading between the lines, he may be going through a tough patch. I'm sure he appreciates the gracious support and encouragement that flows from here. Does anybody know what's going on?  mrcharly: does your friend have any news about Bruce's knee?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Heinrich on February 08, 2016, 08:11:28 am


I think the uploads may have changed slightly as I now see no ride on the 4th Feb, but a couple on the 5th.

A few low milage days really illustrates the merciless cruelty of the challenge. All that effort climbing above the Searvogel line with a month of impressive riding is wiped out and more.

"Time trials are won, not by riding fast, but by not riding slow"

(http://gicentre.org/oytt/images/oytt2016_02_05a.png)

+1 - the numbers are almost as merciless as the challenge.  Every day in which only 100 miles is ridden adds approximately 0.3 miles a day to the every other day in the year, and a blank day 0.57 miles per day.  So a half dozen bad days can mean the average for the rest going up to 210, 211....

This chart is very interesting ---- wher can we find it?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on February 08, 2016, 08:31:33 am
The link is inthe first message of this thread https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=87407.0 - Jo has been running for over a year, with commentary. Definitely a thread to follow if you are interested in the attempts

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: MrDrem on February 08, 2016, 08:56:54 am
I've just brought https://goo.gl/RBHtiS bang up to date again, but am hearing elsewhere (although I can't find a source for it yet) that Bruce has decided to knock it on it's head.

If true, I can't say that I'm shocked.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 08, 2016, 09:03:20 am
Does anybody know what's going on?  mrcharly: does your friend have any news about Bruce's knee?
He's not my friend, he's Bruce's friend.

No news of abandonment on facebook, twitter or strava.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Whip on February 08, 2016, 04:40:58 pm
I can't work out if Bruce is deluding himself with his stated belief that he has Guinness ratification of his past and current rides, or whether he has simply backed himself into a corner and finds it difficult to admit that he needs to take a different approach to have any credible recognition of a future record.

I think most wish him well. I know we did. Although, from our camp and experience, one red flag after another kept popping up. We all know the definition of insanity. The tactics and strategy of this challenge calls for constant change and to listen.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 08, 2016, 04:55:39 pm
Bruce seems to have had bad luck with the knee issue causing a DNF before, IIRC. While I find his attitude to the record ratifying authorities perplexing, I don't wish the man ill and I'm sad for him that things aren't now going so well. I hope that if he indeed abandons he can get the knee problems sorted out permanently, and in the meantime take note of the criticism and get the ride sorted out properly in all respects before having another go. He's obviously a strong competitor, and deserves to have a proper go at this.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on February 09, 2016, 08:00:24 am
Adelaide looks like a nice part of the world to cycle in, judging by some of the photos he is posting to his Strava feed.

That said, I don't quite understand why someone with knee niggles would choose to do several rides with hills in them. Yes it mixes things up, but they don't quite class as recovery rides in my book (despite the shorter distance).

It's a strange vibe on his Strava feed. I can't tell whether he has packed or not.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Freya on February 09, 2016, 08:54:47 am
Well, if he hasn't jacked it in, he is going is funny way about trying to break the record. It is difficult to judge people just from social  media but he comes across as far too indisciplined and too much of a maverick to give this a proper go. Despite being a very strong rider.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on February 09, 2016, 09:03:54 am
It is a great shame that his attempt appears to be over.  I originally really liked him, but frankly lost interest and respect for him with all the toys out of the pram stuff. But if he wanted to ride and become the strava world champion or whatever he was trying to do, then good on him, so long as he inspired others. 

Good luck Bruce, whatever you choose to do.  Get those knees sorted!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 09, 2016, 09:30:03 am
I think he has packed. threads on facebook discussing his rides and progress have been deleted.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on February 09, 2016, 09:40:33 am
It is a shame for anyone to give up, but each strong rider that tries and fails increases the respect I have for those who did go the whole year for a record attempt and highlights the difficulty of the HAMR and the astonishing achievement of riding more than 50,000 miles in a year, let alone getting close to Kurt's record.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Laid Back Rich on February 09, 2016, 12:46:19 pm
quoting an eddington number in furlongs is the most interesting thing I read on this thread at this visit, thanks CET  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on February 09, 2016, 01:01:53 pm
He remains an excellent rider, whatever else.  And I think it is a great shame if his attempt has been terminated (I won't say failed), but it did seem to be heading that way for a while.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: crowriver on February 09, 2016, 02:19:39 pm
He remains an excellent rider, whatever else.  And I think it is a great shame if his attempt has been terminated (I won't say failed), but it did seem to be heading that way for a while.

+1
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: DrMekon on February 09, 2016, 08:03:22 pm
Do his Strava rides have HR or power data?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on February 09, 2016, 08:14:14 pm
Power.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Whip on February 09, 2016, 08:33:08 pm
Pacing himself was a big part of Kurt's strategy. He didn't push himself. He could ride faster if he wanted to, but getting burned out and the risk of injury wasn't worth it to get up and do it again. That's why he rides in the big rings with a slow cadence. He stands up and climbs slowly up hills in the same gear. Small but significant when it comes to saving energy. Most who ride with him race up hills and quickly exhaust themselves until they get it.
How can we not be in awe of anyone who tries to go for the record? It takes more than being a strong rider. Seems we're all hooked, though.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on February 09, 2016, 08:53:24 pm
The mental endurance is what I find most remarkable.  That's what marks out the record-breaker for me.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Whip on February 09, 2016, 08:56:35 pm
"Kurt's the only one I know who can stay with himself in his head that long." ~ a friend named Joe
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on February 09, 2016, 09:02:03 pm
Kurt's pacing was excellent
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 10, 2016, 11:18:47 am
There are some real nobbish comments appearing on Bruce's strava page. :facepalm:

Bruce himself is still silent
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: LMT on February 10, 2016, 01:03:11 pm
There are some real nobbish comments appearing on Bruce's strava page. :facepalm:

Bruce himself is still silent

Indeed, whilst I have enjoyed some of Durianriders videos on youtube about diet and cycling. His unfounded comments regarding Kurt taking steroids and cheating by drafting and riding a recumbent is a new level of stupidity.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on February 10, 2016, 01:04:43 pm
That's really crass.  And stupid.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on February 10, 2016, 01:06:42 pm
There are some real nobbish comments appearing on Bruce's strava page. :facepalm:

Bruce himself is still silent

Indeed, whilst I have enjoyed some of Durianriders videos on youtube about diet and cycling. His unfounded comments regarding Kurt taking steroids and cheating by drafting and riding a recumbent is a new level of stupidity.

my bold

Which just goes to prove that no matter how unlikely all things are possible
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on February 10, 2016, 02:04:10 pm
Quote
That's really crass.  And stupid.

his income is seemingly generated from YouTube, he needs content and clicks, a lot of his and Freelees stuff is essentially clickbait, and very successful they are to,

theres a lot of really good info on his pages (CTFU Cycling being the best of his Channels) if you manage to ignore all the other stuff
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Whip on February 10, 2016, 02:20:45 pm
Just to set the record straight: Kurt does not and never has used steroids. He is naturally a big person (and getting bigger now that he is not riding much, lol).

Anyone who says he does has no honest credibility in such a remark and is fooling his own ego - pitiful.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on February 10, 2016, 02:27:12 pm
I imagine that he finds the suggestion offensive.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ham on February 10, 2016, 02:27:50 pm
....and lots of others do on his behalf, too ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 10, 2016, 02:50:03 pm
Just to set the record straight: Kurt does not and never has used steroids. He is naturally a big person (and getting bigger now that he is not riding much, lol).

Anyone who says he does has no honest credibility in such a remark and is fooling his own ego - pitiful.
well, quite.

The suggestion was 'justified' by saying kurt was too big after the year. Yeah, a muscular guy nicknamed Tarzan has muscles, whodathoughtit?

I don't think bruce will appreciate such utter sh!te being put on his strava page.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 10, 2016, 03:00:55 pm
I made a resolution this year not to read the bottom half of the internet (ie the comments section) because it makes me too angry.

Unfortunately you actually find a lot of the good info is in comments .... Its just so sad that you have to wade through a sea of retards offering up entirely uneducated and ignorant opinions as facts.

Those comments on Kurt would be laughable - if they were not libelous!



Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Whip on February 10, 2016, 03:28:03 pm
Reading Strava comments can be addicting entertainment. I know I've been easily sucked in like it's some guilty pleasure. This is awful, but I almost look for the tool of the day and who will get the "banana award" for the most ridiculous comment.

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Canardly on February 10, 2016, 03:48:59 pm
Kurt can just grin and polish his world record.  :-D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aidan on February 10, 2016, 05:40:16 pm
Reading Strava comments can be addicting entertainment. I know I've been easily sucked in like it's some guilty pleasure. This is awful, but I almost look for the tool of the day and who will get the "banana award" for the most ridiculous comment.

 ;D

VEGAN POWER!!!!!!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on February 10, 2016, 07:17:50 pm
...
 who will get the "banana award" for the most ridiculous comment.
Is this a real thing?!? I may have to dig out my Strava login details.  :P
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Phil W on February 10, 2016, 07:35:21 pm
...
 who will get the "banana award" for the most ridiculous comment.
Is this a real thing?!? I may have to dig out my Strava login details.  :P

On Strava someone commentated "keep peddling your machine". Is he selling it already?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on February 10, 2016, 07:37:10 pm
...
 who will get the "banana award" for the most ridiculous comment.
Is this a real thing?!? I may have to dig out my Strava login details.  :P

Yes, but on Eurostrava it's straight.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: macnark on February 10, 2016, 09:22:02 pm
Is that actually THE durianrider?

Any oik can register on Strava with whatever similar name and cause a stink - and there are quite a few  who have snuck out from under rocks just to piss people off with their negativity and destructive attitudes.

If it is the better-known durianrider, (and I suspect it is, looking at his strava stats) then bad on you, you old roo-scrote.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Snowandale on February 11, 2016, 09:41:46 am
Is that actually THE durianrider?

Any oik can register on Strava with whatever similar name and cause a stink - and there are quite a few  who have snuck out from under rocks just to piss people off with their negativity and destructive attitudes.

If it is the better-known durianrider, (and I suspect it is, looking at his strava stats) then bad on you, you old roo-scrote.

Why did you bother with the bold bit? Your second paragraph shows you clicked his profile, so obviously it is the durian rider. How many oiks amass 20,000 followers and rides on the back of Chris froomes wheel.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rafletcher on February 11, 2016, 10:03:37 am
...durianrider

...cause a stink.

 ;D
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: rafletcher on February 11, 2016, 10:06:33 am
Is that actually THE durianrider?

Any oik can register on Strava with whatever similar name and cause a stink - and there are quite a few  who have snuck out from under rocks just to piss people off with their negativity and destructive attitudes.

If it is the better-known durianrider, (and I suspect it is, looking at his strava stats) then bad on you, you old roo-scrote.


Why did you bother with the bold bit? Your second paragraph shows you clicked his profile, so obviously it is the durian rider. How many oiks amass 20,000 followers and rides on the back of Chris froomes wheel.

Why did you bother to post at all? ;)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: macnark on February 11, 2016, 10:56:19 am
Is that actually THE durianrider?

Any oik can register on Strava with whatever similar name and cause a stink - and there are quite a few  who have snuck out from under rocks just to piss people off with their negativity and destructive attitudes.

If it is the better-known durianrider, (and I suspect it is, looking at his strava stats) then bad on you, you old roo-scrote.

Why did you bother with the bold bit? Your second paragraph shows you clicked his profile, so obviously it is the durian rider. How many oiks amass 20,000 followers and rides on the back of Chris froomes wheel.


I didn't bother with the bold bit, you did that. Didn't bother me at all :-)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on February 11, 2016, 11:01:54 am
Returning momentarily to Bruce and his ride, he is currently lying 11th in the Strava rankings for February with scarcely more than 120k per day to his name.

That's somewhere in the region of 1500 miles to make up.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: SoreTween on February 11, 2016, 12:31:05 pm
It is possible that he's still riding and just gone totally stealth due to the trolling and incessant queries about adherence to rules. He could still be gathering .fit files to submit to Guiness next Jan.

Personally, I don't think that's the way Mr Occam would be leaning.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: teethgrinder on February 11, 2016, 12:42:03 pm
I think it's definitely possible that he's keeping his own records to himself and still going as well as he was a month ago, but I somehow doubt it very much.

In any case, even if he is and does succeed and claim the record from Guinness (which I very much doubt that they will accept anyway, though I don't actually know) who is going to believe him if he's keeping his data to himself? Especially when he already claims to have a non existent record and another record that has been proven to be invalid as well as bettered by several others and credited to someone else by Guinness?

Sadly, I think that this thread will merge into the "Fading away" thread in "The Pub" section of this forum... :(
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jacamo on February 11, 2016, 01:04:52 pm
He hasn't really lost any speed, just riding shorter distances. Could it be that he has smartened up and is planning a restart under UMCA rules?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on February 11, 2016, 01:33:04 pm
He hasn't really lost any speed, just riding shorter distances. Could it be that he has smartened up and is planning a restart under UMCA rules?

I doubt it. If he were planning to do this, then surely it would be in his interests to tell people. After starting the year with a great deal of goodwill, he has allowed much of that to evaporate.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on February 11, 2016, 02:38:56 pm
The way to convince people your record is valid is not to squirrel away the data from public scrutiny.  With this in mind, and anticipating that Bruce isn't daft, and that a big part of his "play" was public scrutiny through social media, I strongly suspect he isn't hiding data and that the simplest explanation (that he's either on haitus or packed) is probably the right one.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 11, 2016, 02:59:47 pm
Not only is he being coy about the record attempt, he seems to be thouroughly enjoying his current rides of 40-80km. I'd say it's all over.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on February 12, 2016, 10:11:58 am
Holy crap.  I don't follow him on Strava these days, but just looked in to see if he was still rolling (and it looks like he is not currently).  Some of the shit in the comments is pretty unreal!  I know, I know, don't read the bottom half and all that and I am largely shielded from the crazies by only being in (relatively!) sensible fora such as this, but bloody hell!  It's made me reconsider my attempt on the year record, and I have reluctantly decided not to move forward with the idea.... ;D

Properly amazing.  I've always found the long-distance world to be largely full of optimistic people who encourage and congratulate others.  When it opens itself up to comment from those outside that world, shit goes wild it seems.

I might have to go and lie down a while. 
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on February 12, 2016, 11:28:05 am
Holy crap.

These seem to be people who are too dim to read and comment on the Daily Ma!l.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 12, 2016, 12:06:11 pm
A certain mystique built up over the 75 years of the Godwin record. But The Year has now been demystified, and broken down into its constituent parts. The technical, physiological, psychological and validatory components have all been subject to minute inspection.

There's bound to be a desire for a hero to come along and put the mystique back into the record, probably through some sort of 'purity'. A similar process has been at work in 'The Hour'. Moser put the cat among the pigeons there, by gaining the record at altitude with an aerodynamic bike. Boardman's 'Superman' record is an outlier, and a record with footnotes is a bit naff.

I don't think there will ever be an unequivocal answer to the 'purity problem'. A closed circuit or velodrome record makes a prisoner of the candidate, and the public seem to like at least the illusion of the 'Freedom of the Open Road'. That romantic idea of 'liberty' has been relentlessly sucked out of Bruce's attempt by critics of his validation strategy. However, there was a paradox in the way that Bruce needed shackle himself to the Guinness idea, and to Strava to gain profile.

I still idealise a round-the world-trip that would transform my understanding in some way, a redemptive journey, and I think there are a lot of people who project that sort of notion onto the Year riders. I'm old enough to realise that I can't just 'bivvy' my way around the world, but there are enough folk out there with the 'perfect trip', only in their heads, who like to find fault, and to express themselves over bile-flecked keyboards.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on February 12, 2016, 02:54:30 pm
Wasn't Obree the 'Superman'?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 12, 2016, 03:23:24 pm
Obree came up with the 'Superman' position after his initial tuck was banned by the UCI.
http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/superpos.htm

Boardman used that position in 1996 to set a new hour record.
http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/boardman2.htm

The UCI then banned that position, and eventually negated the previous Boardman record when they introduced the "Athlete's Hour' specification. That was dropped in 2014, previous records were acknowledged and a new specification was introduced.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/hour-record-rule-change-athletes-hour-scrapped-123397

The purest exponent of the 'Superman' position was Antonella Bellutti.

(http://images2.gazzettaobjects.it/methode_image/2014/02/01/Ciclismo/Foto%20Gallery%20-%20Trattate/CD67-kT6E--606x458@Gazzetta-Web_mediagallery-page.jpg)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 12, 2016, 03:35:47 pm
My back is hurting just looking at that...must be historical sympathy pain!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 12, 2016, 03:43:28 pm
Andy Wilkinson used a slightly less radical position for his 1997 24 hour record.


(http://www.clochette.co.uk/TTF/Scanned%20Articles/1997/97nat24p2.jpg)
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on February 12, 2016, 07:36:20 pm
I'm old enough to realise that I can't just 'bivvy' my way around the world

I'm sure you could. My 80 year old mate Dennis rode LeJog a few years back hoping to be the oldest. I'm not sure if such a record exists. He asked me to find out so that if it does exist he can set off again when he is a year older than the holder.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Phil W on February 12, 2016, 08:02:49 pm
I'm old enough to realise that I can't just 'bivvy' my way around the world

I'm sure you could. My 80 year old mate Dennis rode LeJog a few years back hoping to be the oldest. I'm not sure if such a record exists. He asked me to find out so that if it does exist he can set off again when he is a year older than the holder.

Here you go, he needs to wait a year or two

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/oldest-person-to-cycle-from-lands-end-to-john-o-groats

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Wowbagger on February 12, 2016, 08:25:03 pm
And he only took a fortnight! Mrs. Wow and I took 3 weeks, and we were almost 30 years younger.

Did you see the BTL comment from the guy's sister, who said he did a JOGLE last year?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on February 12, 2016, 08:29:32 pm
So no formal announcement from Bruce about whether his attempt is ongoing or not?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on February 13, 2016, 08:31:24 am
I'm old enough to realise that I can't just 'bivvy' my way around the world

I'm sure you could. My 80 year old mate Dennis rode LeJog a few years back hoping to be the oldest. I'm not sure if such a record exists. He asked me to find out so that if it does exist he can set off again when he is a year older than the holder.

Here you go, he needs to wait a year or two

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/oldest-person-to-cycle-from-lands-end-to-john-o-groats

No he doesn't. This was 2 years back.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Phil W on February 13, 2016, 11:24:18 am
I'm old enough to realise that I can't just 'bivvy' my way around the world

I'm sure you could. My 80 year old mate Dennis rode LeJog a few years back hoping to be the oldest. I'm not sure if such a record exists. He asked me to find out so that if it does exist he can set off again when he is a year older than the holder.

Here you go, he needs to wait a year or two

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/oldest-person-to-cycle-from-lands-end-to-john-o-groats

No he doesn't. This was 2 years back.

Excellent, now is his year then.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 15, 2016, 04:25:23 pm
No news from Bruce


Just to counterbalance the thicko commentators on strava, one person has taken to quoting Waiting for Godot.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: wajcgac on February 15, 2016, 05:52:34 pm
He's still riding but not doing anywhere near the miles required - I guess he's just riding for the enjoyment now.

https://connect.garmin.com/profile/cycle_dr1 (https://connect.garmin.com/profile/cycle_dr1)

Funny that he's not posting to Strava though as he's posted regularly to it for several years.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Phil W on February 15, 2016, 06:09:29 pm
He's still riding but not doing anywhere near the miles required - I guess he's just riding for the enjoyment now.

https://connect.garmin.com/profile/cycle_dr1 (https://connect.garmin.com/profile/cycle_dr1)

Funny that he's not posting to Strava though as he's posted regularly to it for several years.

I guess he's feeling embarrassed at having stopped so soon, and wants to avoid the negativity of the comments on Strava.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: marcusjb on February 15, 2016, 06:11:53 pm
Could it be he has just set the recent rides to private on Strava?  He's just riding for himself now and needs to avoid the heat a little (maybe make an announcement about his intentions, that would help!) 

It is a shame whatever happens.  He has the legs (but maybe not the knees), but needs some assistance with the admin. 

I hope he can put something together in the future and have a proper go at this, but with some help to keep him on the straight and narrow.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on February 15, 2016, 06:15:37 pm
Sure. It must be difficult dealing with such a public challenge as this. However Bruce more than any other challenger has been asserting that a log on Strava is all that is needed to be given the credit for being a record holder, specifically dismissing the need for other forms of scrutiny. To sort of slip away from Strava with no explicit acknowledgement seems self-defeating if you are going to follow that approach.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 16, 2016, 08:10:30 am
He's confirmed that he's abandoned (for now).
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Phil W on February 17, 2016, 12:15:21 am
Tap on his message and it'll expand to the full text he has written,
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Justin(e) on February 17, 2016, 02:49:45 am
Please post full message here.

Bad luck Bruce.  Everybody that attempts this record adds to the allure.  Even early failures like Bruce and miles demonstrate the epic nature of the undertaking.

Allez Bruce.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: red marley on February 17, 2016, 06:34:10 am
That was almost all of the message. I think it may also have been edited slightly since originally posted. It currently says:

"Hi everyone, I just wanted to give you all an update as to my year record attempt. I have had a few personal and Physical issues to deal with in the last 10 days. Due to the nature of the issues I have decided to postpone the record attempt! I will look at restarting later in the year."
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Aidan on February 17, 2016, 06:43:29 am
That was almost all of the message. I think it may also have been edited slightly since originally posted. It currently says:

"Hi everyone, I just wanted to give you all an update as to my year record attempt. I have had a few personal and Physical issues to deal with in the last 10 days. Due to the nature of the issues I have decided to postpone the record attempt! I will look at restarting later in the year."

And it continues under the drop down:

Quote
I want to thank everyone for the support, and I’m sorry that these issues not allowed me to continue. Pretty gutted at this stage, but will put it down to experience, move forward and get back on with some projects later in the year.

Once again thanks so much for the support.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Phil W on February 17, 2016, 11:49:27 am
Here's the message

"Hi everyone, I just wanted to give you all an update as to my year record attempt. I have had a few personal and Physical issues to deal with in the last 10 days. Due to the nature of the issues I have decided to postpone the record attempt!

I will look at restarting later in the year.

I want to thank everyone for the support, and I’m sorry that these issues not allowed me to continue. Pretty gutted at this stage, but will put it down to experience, move forward and get back on with some projects later in the year.

Once again thanks so much for the support"
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: hillbilly on February 17, 2016, 01:11:26 pm
Hopefully he will show the record more respect next time, instead of indulging in a personal challenge and claiming some sort of wider significance for it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Si S on February 17, 2016, 01:24:23 pm
Hopefully he will show the record more respect next time, instead of indulging in a personal challenge and claiming some sort of wider significance for it.

<like>

I wonder how his sponsors feel about it all, though as an exercise in promotion* I suppose you'd consider it a success. I do hope he does make a legitimised attempt as it makes fascinating watching.

particularly the self variety
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 17, 2016, 02:07:46 pm
I don't think we'll see bruce on this again.  Knee issues that appear in less than a month are not going to go away, particularly as Bruce isn't a youth.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Citizenfish on February 18, 2016, 08:00:12 am
This may seem harsh, but I think Bruce's attempt has underlined what is needed to get this record. He is not the first to have physical issues during the attempt. Almost all of those before him suffered from something, including Kurt and Steve, those capable (and mad enough) have ridden through them. Think Jens Voigt.

He appears to have abandoned after a combination of mental AND physical issues, but the physical ones are those that are usually made public. In the nicest possible way I think this shows he is not up to it. And it shows that Kurt and Steve were. He has done us a great service though by evidencing that this is not just a year of gentle pedalling.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 18, 2016, 08:41:43 am
This may seem harsh, but I think Bruce's attempt has underlined what is needed to get this record. He is not the first to have physical issues during the attempt. Almost all of those before him suffered from something, including Kurt and Steve, those capable (and mad enough) have ridden through them. Think Jens Voigt.

He appears to have abandoned after a combination of mental AND physical issues, but the physical ones are those that are usually made public. In the nicest possible way I think this shows he is not up to it. And it shows that Kurt and Steve were. He has done us a great service though by evidencing that this is not just a year of gentle pedalling.
Not harsh, realistic
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: MacB on February 18, 2016, 11:33:24 am
Yep the physical challenge is staggering and needs a bit of luck in avoiding bugs etc when you are running your body that near the limit. But I still think the mental challenge is even greater.

I'm still surprised that 2 of the 5 efforts actually succeeded on the mental side.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 18, 2016, 12:31:41 pm
Yep the physical challenge is staggering and needs a bit of luck in avoiding bugs etc when you are running your body that near the limit. But I still think the mental challenge is even greater.

I'm still surprised that 2 of the 5 efforts actually succeeded on the mental side.

I still think back to a few late nights in December time (I think)...... When we had gale force winds around here that were strong enough to have me seriously worrying about our building and the surrounding trees ....I live deep in a valley so its fairly sheltered.... at that same time, Steve was less than 20 miles away in a much higher, much more exposed and remote area.  I felt genuinely scared looking at the tracker and knowing what that bit of road would have been like at that time of night, in those conditions.

Its a bit like when you watch Formula 1 live, trackside, for the first time...and you suddenly realize why these are the only 20 people on the planet that actually do this...because it requires a set of mental and physical skills that only a handful of people on the planet actually have.

Im not sure there are many people on the planet who have the state of mind and strength of character needed to complete a proper attempt at the year.... to then actually beat the record you also need to combine those mental attributes with the ability to time trial at 18-20mph day in day out while remaining in a comfort zone....madness!

Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Hummers on February 26, 2016, 07:34:00 pm

Im not sure there are many people on the planet who have the state of mind and strength of character needed to complete a proper attempt at the year.... to then actually beat the record you also need to combine those mental attributes with the ability to time trial at 18-20mph day in day out while remaining in a comfort zone....madness!


....when you are knackered every day.

H
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: ElyDave on February 27, 2016, 01:25:18 pm
So no news is, no news then?

Not restarted or given any idea when he will?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: TimC on February 27, 2016, 02:46:40 pm
I suspect it will take a while to diagnose, treat and assess the recovery of Bruce's knee - which has let him down before. I wouldn't expect any substantive news (as opposed to statements of ambition) for some months. Any sooner, and I'd expect the same pattern to repeat itself.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: danridesbikes on December 20, 2016, 09:34:53 pm
whats bruce planning for January? a month attempt?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: teethgrinder on December 21, 2016, 11:18:17 pm
I don't think so.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Jack_P on February 24, 2017, 01:17:11 pm
whats bruce planning for January? a month attempt?

Bruce is off again. 200 plus days, looks like a seven day distance attempt. There's a cycling weekly story on a Richard Nutt claiming a world record for this, what's the most you or Amanda have done in 7 days Teeth grinder?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 24, 2017, 01:30:55 pm
That's a very impressive 7 day total

Is there any confirmation that he did this under the auspices of any official body?

Bruce didn't, I seem to recall.  Just declared he'd done it.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 24, 2017, 01:49:52 pm
He seems to be one of those 'Stravanauts'. It's a harmless enough hobby. I tend to the view that anyone serious will have a crack at the LEJOG record. That doesn't happen very often, but there are still column inches to be filled.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Karla on February 25, 2017, 12:02:25 am
whats bruce planning for January? a month attempt?

Bruce is off again. 200 plus days, looks like a seven day distance attempt. There's a cycling weekly story on a Richard Nutt claiming a world record for this, what's the most you or Amanda have done in 7 days Teeth grinder?

When Christoph Strasser did his 7d22h RAAM in 2013, he will have done about 2600 miles in 7 days.  The data will probably still be on the UMCA site to show the last time station he passed before the week was up.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: teethgrinder on February 25, 2017, 08:22:33 am
Strasser also rode across Australia in record time a few weeks ago.


Bruce is off again. 200 plus days, looks like a seven day distance attempt. There's a cycling weekly story on a Richard Nutt claiming a world record for this, what's the most you or Amanda have done in 7 days Teeth grinder?

I rode 1728 on the first 7 days of my month record. Amanda will be a bit less (at least, for now) but it wouldn't be by much.
Tommy Godwin would have got over 2000 miles at least 4 weeks with his super summer riding.
A year record rider probably wouldn't get near a week record, but you never know. It'd be a bit like trying to get the 10 mile record during a 24 hour as a year record is 52 times longer than a week. You'd need a full support crew to do a week record and really hammer the sleep restricition. That's far too intense for a year record, unless you can recover from it while still doing enough miles. Recovery from anything seems to take 4 times as long during a year record attempt, as a rough guess, as far as I can tell.
Strasser could probably ride even further in a week if he set out to do so and chose routes that give him best use of tailwinds.
Still a very good ride from Bruce though. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: clarion on February 27, 2017, 03:59:09 pm
What was Bruce's total?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Karla on February 27, 2017, 04:20:14 pm
Another one: Ben Rockett claimed 1880 miles for his LEJOGLE ride, which he did in 5 days 21 hours.

Oh and FYI

Quote
It'd be a bit like trying to get the 10 mile record during a 24 hour

My fastest 10 miles were during a 50 mile TT!
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: mattc on February 27, 2017, 06:01:11 pm
Oh and FYI

Quote from: teefgrinder
It'd be a bit like trying to get the 10 mile record during a 24 hour

My fastest 10 miles were during a 50 mile TT!
I think my fastest 10 were near the end of a 5AAA 200km.*

But that is also irrelevant to Steve's comment. <pushes glasses up nose>


*[probably a bit more altitude lost than during yours]
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Ian H on February 27, 2017, 06:14:39 pm


My fastest 10 miles were during a 50 mile TT!

One way and a following wind?
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Karla on February 27, 2017, 08:13:49 pm
Yup.  I think a lot of people did 10 mile PBs that day.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: teethgrinder on February 28, 2017, 09:56:17 am
A 50 is significantly higher intensity than riding a 24 hour.
My fastest 40km on my Garmin is only about 3 minutes slower than my 25 mile PB and I think that was done during my month record. So it does seem possible that I could score a 25 mile PB with a tailwind in the Fens during the year record (It's only 1:03 something, done in 1993 on a windy day on a road bike with no tri bars, so pretty helpful to have the bar set so low)

You do make a good point though For a week record with the same rules as the UMCA year record, you could ride across a large land mass with a tailwind all the way and full support crew. Austarlia or USA might be a good place.
I thought about that for the year record but the logistics aren't easy and it would be extremely expensive even without a follow car. You'd need to be sure of a good enough tailwind to iron out any hills or mountains or find a flat enough route. Then, you need to get back to the start ASAP once you run out of land, into slow going conditions or run out of tailwind. That would mean a flight really, preferably by private jet which can carry your bike safely. With charter flights, you'd really want a bike waiting at the beginning of the route and have it arranged for them to be relayed back to the start of the route.

I do have it in mind to use my 3 free goes at the month record during the year. But I do have to give at least 21 days notice for each attempt, which I'd have to do for an official week record (if it existed)
Month record pace is pretty much year record pace. At least I hope it is because I was doing 236 mpd when I did the month and that would probably get me the HAMR by about 1500 miles. :)

I think that Gethin Butler matched or got very close to his PB for a 24 hour when he got the LEJOG record. Very hard terrain but he had a very good tailwind.
Title: Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
Post by: Karla on February 28, 2017, 10:21:52 am
The RRA site says he did 505 during his LEJOG ride, as compared to his time trial PB of 509.