Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Pale Rider on January 06, 2016, 05:14:00 am

Title: [HAMR] Why the need for more money?
Post by: Pale Rider on January 06, 2016, 05:14:00 am
Donations to Steve's bid are still being sought and standing order donors are being urged to change their order to a new account.

Why is more money needed?

The team has, in my view, been unacceptably secretive about the finances.

All we really know is information disclosed by Fidgetbuzz, the former keeper of the purse.

My reading of his posts is there is enough money to finish the attempt in August, and still leave a 'five figure' surplus.

Clearly, there has been a parting of the ways between Fidgetbuzz and the team.

The change to a new account will presumably - and deliberately - take him out of the loop completely, meaning donors' access to financial information will go from nearly to absolute zero.

I accept the team - or anyone - can ask for money and not give any details about how it is spent.

But as a matter of financial propriety, that is not good enough.

If I were in charge of the finances, I would want to publish reasonably detailed accounts so everyone could see I was doing the job correctly.

With Steve's bid, we now don't even know who is doing the finances, let alone the numbers.

To reiterate, as donors we are not entitled to anything, but I believe the team should publish where the money's gone/going and justify their request for more.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: bunker on January 06, 2016, 06:23:59 am
The lack of communication to donors, even just a brief monthly email update (we did get 1 on 30/1/15!), has caused me to re-evaluate my ongoing financial support. Changing bank details without contacting donors directly to ask them update their SO details shows a further lack of regard for donors IMO.

For every donation made, someone has had to work some hours 'for free' to earn the money to donate. It is human nature to want to feel that your donation is appreciated. The relevant part of the team have failed to demonstrate that.

I will continue to support Steve morally and via event donations, but I am stopping my SO.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: yanto on January 06, 2016, 07:42:21 am
In one of my past "lives" I was an internal auditor, something like this in a corporate environment would have had the alarm bells more than just jingling.  But as said these are donations to an individual, the individual or his/her nominated representative can use the donation in anyway they feel fit as long as it is clearly used directly in support of the task for which it was asked for.  If it is not then it is misappropriation of funds for personal gain, a very dodgy subject indeed.

To my mind the recipient of the funds or nominated representative should take a stance of "Transparency" in that as the funds were/are appropriated from the public then a full break down of receipts and expenditure should be presented, in public.

If the silence persists then doubts about usage of funds will persist and grow, especially as the ride continues past it's original target date with no definite end in sight, just intimations that progress will be checked at the end of January.

I do hope that whoever is in charge of fund collection and expenditure produces figures, if not I fear all associated with the team could be tarnished with a reputation of deceit, warranted or not.

I am in no way saying any money is being misspent, I just think that people who have or continue to donate have a vested interest in how their money is being spent, and when they can stop paying.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: TimC on January 06, 2016, 09:35:52 am
Fidgetbuzz raised concerns in the 'Thoughts' thread about the idea of Steve conceding control of the funds to other members of the team. I can certainly see that having other people having access to the account would be convenient, but it's essential (and probably required by law) in any exercise like this that the use of donors' money is open, transparent and fully accounted. Part of that transparency is explaining any changes in the financial arrangements and regular updates to donors as to how their money is being used.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Greenbank on January 06, 2016, 09:45:09 am
Changing bank details without contacting donors directly to ask them update their SO details shows a further lack of regard for donors IMO.

I don't think they have contact details for the vast majority of donors as they're just paying directly into a bank account but, yes, it would have been nice to email the people who did contact Roger originally when they set up their SO.

The new account is in Steve's name. I would have had concerns if it was in any other name. AIUI this is just the same account that Roger moves all of the existing donations to anyway.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 06, 2016, 09:59:22 am
I share the concerns above.

I chose to support Steve via a small monthly contribution (although I have only met Steve briefly a couple of times and he wouldn't know me from Adam) because I feel some connection with what he is doing and I can identify to some small extent with the mental and physical enormity of his efforts. I have also followed Steve's exploits and posts via yacf, and I feel that we share something by way of our common membership of this group and the cycling fraternity in general. I have always been struck by his efforts to help less experienced Audaxers with their first 400s / 600s. In short he seems to be a good egg who is giving up a lot to suffer for his dream.

By contributing, I hoped to support him and to feel a part of his effort in some small way. That is all I wanted from my contribution: to give Steve support, to assist with the practicalities of his record attempt, to have a feeling that I am helping and a sense of some slight peripheral involvement. The rest - his plan, what the team do or don't do, whether the record attempt does this or that in 2016, is all entirely up to them and I am committed to supporting them.

The complete lack of any update at all from the team in over a year has made it difficult to feel involved. I don't even know if my / our support is of value at all - perhaps small individual contributions are dwarfed by commercial contributions. Facebook posts do not count as updates and that is that. Not everyone is on Facebook and it is easy to miss posts.

Initially my SO was set up to Roger Cortis. That carried on for all of last year until recently, when my pre-set 12 months had expired. I then emailed Roger, who very kindly responded in detail even though he is no longer directly involved. At no stage was there an email to say that my SO was going to the account of someone no longer involved in the team. I am not for one moment suggesting anything untoward and I do not have any worries on that score - the money was simply transferred from Roger C's account on a monthly basis. However, would it not be the norm to inform donors of such a change via an email? In any case I restarted my SO, this time to the account detailed on Steve's page.

Now I see via a post on yacf that donors are being asked - via a bloody Facebook post! - to change the target of their SOs. 

It's all a mess and I have emailed Idai to that effect.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: red marley on January 06, 2016, 10:06:28 am
I agree with the sentiments of Sgt Pluck's post. Unlike riding strategy, which the team have every right to disclose or not as they see fit, I do think the communication over financial support has been very poor. I'm not sure this is Idai's responsibility though. http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/team suggests IanH and PhilW, both regulars here, have the social media responsibility. Perhaps they could comment?
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Ian H on January 06, 2016, 10:30:52 am
I agree with the sentiments of Sgt Pluck's post. Unlike riding strategy, which the team have every right to disclose or not as they see fit, I do think the communication over financial support has been very poor. I'm not sure this is Idai's responsibility though. http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/team suggests IanH and PhilW, both regulars here, have the social media responsibility. Perhaps they could comment?

We have a list of names but few contact details – these weren't handed over or perhaps not retained (who knows?).  The requests to alter details went out on various platforms, including here and on the website news page.  Phil handles the newsletter, but he's been otherwise engaged for a while. 
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 06, 2016, 10:41:11 am
I'd assumed that Steve is essentially a sole trader for tax purposes. 'One Year Time Trial' doesn't seem to be a charity or a limited company. I'd not expect to see anything from a sole trader. The only time I've ever had to provide formal accounts has been to join tender lists.
Kurt looks like he was financed through his business, so his expenses might constitute a promotional expense.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Wowbagger on January 06, 2016, 10:59:48 am
I agree with the sentiments of Sgt Pluck's post. Unlike riding strategy, which the team have every right to disclose or not as they see fit, I do think the communication over financial support has been very poor. I'm not sure this is Idai's responsibility though. http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/team suggests IanH and PhilW, both regulars here, have the social media responsibility. Perhaps they could comment?

We have a list of names but few contact details – these weren't handed over or perhaps not retained (who knows?).  The requests to alter details went out on various platforms, including here and on the website news page.  Phil handles the newsletter, but he's been otherwise engaged for a while.

In answer to the question "Who knows?" I would suggest "Roger Cortis."

I too share the above concerns. My SO expired in December and, again, after correspondence with Roger, I gained the impression that Steve has enough in the bank to keep him going until August. I therefore didn't renew it. That does not mean that I've stopped wishing Steve all the best in his attempt.

I don't see Steve quite so much as a sole trader. I think he's more like royalty, paid for by the public purse, but more deserving. There's precious little accountability with them and the main difference is that I don't get the choice whether or not I contribute (cont. p 94 of POBI).
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: bunker on January 06, 2016, 11:11:29 am

We have a list of names but few contact details – these weren't handed over or perhaps not retained (who knows?).

Why not ask?

   Phil handles the newsletter, but he's been otherwise engaged for a while.

Why not ask if  someone else would do it temporarily?
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: red marley on January 06, 2016, 11:38:27 am
The requests to alter details went out on various platforms, including here and on the website news page.  Phil handles the newsletter, but he's been otherwise engaged for a while.

It's not so much the request to alter bank details, but the info on how the finances are going, what they're being used for etc. This doesn't have to be a full financial audit, but at least some friendly newsletter type copy on where the money is being spent, whether it is valuable to the effort, how it's looking for the future etc.

A terse, "please amend your SO to xxx" feels a little like donors are being taken for granted.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Ian H on January 06, 2016, 11:44:35 am
The requests to alter details went out on various platforms, including here and on the website news page.  Phil handles the newsletter, but he's been otherwise engaged for a while.

It's not so much the request to alter bank details, but the info on how the finances are going, what they're being used for etc. This doesn't have to be a full financial audit, but at least some friendly newsletter type copy on where the money is being spent, whether it is valuable to the effort, how its looking in the future etc.

A terse, "please amend your SO to xxx" feels a little like donors are being taken for granted.

Agreed.  We are discussing ways of being more transparent now that we are able to do so.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Greenbank on January 06, 2016, 11:57:26 am
Agreed.  We are discussing ways of being more transparent now that we are able to do so.

(My emphasis). Interesting choice of words, care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 06, 2016, 12:59:06 pm
I'm not sure this is Idai's responsibility though. http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/team suggests IanH and PhilW, both regulars here, have the social media responsibility.

I see this has been removed now, but up until a few days ago, in the Donations tab on Steve's webpage, there was a box with Steve's account details. Also in that box was a clickable link labelled "Let us know" or similar. When one clicked on the link, it opened your mail app with a blank mail addressed to the Team. Informing the Team of your SO or donation resulted in an email of thanks from Idai. That's the only reason I mention Idai.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Wobbly on January 06, 2016, 10:07:33 pm
Agreed.  We are discussing ways of being more transparent now that we are able to do so.

Oh, Ian. What a choice of words!   :demon:
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: TimC on January 06, 2016, 10:43:51 pm
While I have absolutely no reason to believe there's anything whatsoever untoward about the way donations to Steve's attempt are being used, I will not be taken for granted as a donor. I donated a fair bit of dosh at the beginning of the campaign, and was one of those who (unsuccesfully) attempted to set up a regular donation via PayPal. Other than the initial acknowledgement, and my name appearing on the list of donors, I have received absolutely no information from the team during the last 12 months.

I don't own the venture, or even part of it, and I don't presume to have any say in how it's run (other than expressing an opinion here). But I have given my hard-earned money to the cause and I really would like to know a bit more about how it was used. But we had this conversation before, with no satisfactory result. Now we have the change of account, with no explanation of why or what advantages it conveys to the team, so yet again we are left to speculate - and into the information vacuum, conjecture will flourish and perhaps be uncomplimentary. There's no need for this. Please talk to us.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: contango on January 06, 2016, 11:35:44 pm
I'd assumed that Steve is essentially a sole trader for tax purposes. 'One Year Time Trial' doesn't seem to be a charity or a limited company. I'd not expect to see anything from a sole trader. The only time I've ever had to provide formal accounts has been to join tender lists.
Kurt looks like he was financed through his business, so his expenses might constitute a promotional expense.

I'm not even sure that it's relevant to consider him a sole trader. If he's just an individual and a number of other individuals have freely chosen to give him small amounts of money periodically, is it even relevant what he calls himself? I wouldn't have thought any tax would be due unless he's receiving huge amounts of money from specific individuals. I'm not an accountant but my understanding is that if someone decided they just wanted to chuck a few quid my way the nice men at HMRC take no interest until "a few quid" starts to mean a fair chunk of change. The money has presumably already been taxed once and is being handed over as a gift rather than a payment for goods or services.

If people are merely making donations to a cause they consider worthy I don't imagine that creates any specific obligation to provide updates as to what is being done with the money - if you give money to a charity you won't necessarily get much detail as to what they are doing with it - but the nature of this particular venture does seem like the sort of thing where it's not so much to ask to keep donors in the loop. I've stopped regular donations to charities if I got the impression they were taking me for granted, so if communications are as bad as people have made out here I don't know that I'd have remained a donor for very long.

Disclosure: I am not a donor to Steve's venture. I wish him all the best but my good wishes are my only contribution to date.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Mileater on January 06, 2016, 11:56:41 pm
I highly doubt there is anything nefarious going on here. But it is fair to note that Steve's team leader has a long history of begging money and crew online for his own races, but not acknowledging their contributions. The British cycling community is littered with unhappy ex donors and crew. Many crew have quit his races in the middle of the events. Whether this is because of bad manners, poor leadership  or just the type of extreme and off-putting self-involvement one sometimes finds amongst ultra distance athletes, I do not know. But given the history it is not surprising to see TG's donors being treated in the same callous and disorganized way. Which is a shame because he is by all accounts a really decent person and worthy of support.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Hummers on January 06, 2016, 11:56:51 pm
I am happy to continue my support for Steve. Please can someone PM me the changed details?

H
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Ham on January 06, 2016, 11:57:18 pm

I'm not even sure that it's relevant to consider him a sole trader. If he's just an individual and a number of other individuals have freely chosen to give him small amounts of money periodically, is it even relevant what he calls himself? I wouldn't have thought any tax would be due unless he's receiving huge amounts of money from specific individuals. I'm not an accountant but my understanding is that if someone decided they just wanted to chuck a few quid my way the nice men at HMRC take no interest until "a few quid" starts to mean a fair chunk of change. The money has presumably already been taxed once and is being handed over as a gift rather than a payment for goods or services.


You would be wrong, entirely.

All the money given to Steve either in cash or benefit may be considered his income, and taxable, no matter that it was paid over by taxpayers. All the sponsorship may be considered benefit in kind, and taxable. Of course the first £10K would be covered by allowances. Technically whatever account it is paid into, if it is "his" money it is his income to declare. Conceivably if held at arm's length (as in, a third party's account) it should be easier not to have to recognise the revenue stream as it appeared. In addition to that, Steve will need to consider the status of his national insurance contributions or risk a penalty to his pension in later years.





Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: LMT on January 07, 2016, 12:01:17 am
I highly doubt there is anything nefarious going on here. But it is fair to note that Steve's team leader has a long history of begging money and crew online for his own races. The British cycling community is littered with unhappy ex donors and crew. Many crew have quit his races in the middle of the events. Whether this is because of bad manners, poor leadership  or just the type of extreme and off-putting self-involvement one sometimes finds amongst ultra distance athletes, I do not know. But given the history it is not surprising to see TG's donors being treated in the same callous way. Which is a shame because he is by all accounts a really decent person.

If the above is true why did Hoppo get the job?
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Pale Rider on January 07, 2016, 12:08:27 am
I highly doubt there is anything nefarious going on here. But it is fair to note that Steve's team leader has a long history of begging money and crew online for his own races. The British cycling community is littered with unhappy ex donors and crew. Many crew have quit his races in the middle of the events. Whether this is because of bad manners, poor leadership  or just the type of extreme and off-putting self-involvement one sometimes finds amongst ultra distance athletes, I do not know. But given the history it is not surprising to see TG's donors being treated in the same callous way. Which is a shame because he is by all accounts a really decent person.

If the above is true why did Hoppo get the job?

I've never met Hoppo, but he does appear to polarise opinions.

Mileater's post is no doubt an accurate reflection of the views of some people who have been involved with Hoppo.

But I imagine there will also be those who find him a focussed, driven individual who can be relied upon to make a determined attempt to get the job done.

As a separate point, judging from some posts on here, he doesn't appear to have had a great deal of hands-on involvement with the bid.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 07, 2016, 12:29:25 am

I'm not even sure that it's relevant to consider him a sole trader. If he's just an individual and a number of other individuals have freely chosen to give him small amounts of money periodically, is it even relevant what he calls himself? I wouldn't have thought any tax would be due unless he's receiving huge amounts of money from specific individuals. I'm not an accountant but my understanding is that if someone decided they just wanted to chuck a few quid my way the nice men at HMRC take no interest until "a few quid" starts to mean a fair chunk of change. The money has presumably already been taxed once and is being handed over as a gift rather than a payment for goods or services.


You would be wrong, entirely.

All the money given to Steve either in cash or benefit may be considered his income, and taxable, no matter that it was paid over by taxpayers. All the sponsorship may be considered benefit in kind, and taxable. Of course the first £10K would be covered by allowances. Technically whatever account it is paid into, if it is "his" money it is his income to declare. Conceivably if held at arm's length (as in, a third party's account) it should be easier not to have to recognise the revenue stream as it appeared. In addition to that, Steve will need to consider the status of his national insurance contributions or risk a penalty to his pension in later years.

I'd say that the sponsored items were tools of the trade or consumables, and I'd be claiming subsistence above that normally required, so most of the food. But I'm used to having a wallet full of receipts. Roger must have sorted all that stuff out, as the team accountant.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Jaded on January 07, 2016, 12:34:32 am
I am happy to continue my support for Steve. Please can someone PM me the changed details?

H

+1
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 07, 2016, 06:31:21 am
I highly doubt there is anything nefarious going on here. But it is fair to note that Steve's team leader has a long history of begging money and crew online for his own races. The British cycling community is littered with unhappy ex donors and crew. Many crew have quit his races in the middle of the events. Whether this is because of bad manners, poor leadership  or just the type of extreme and off-putting self-involvement one sometimes finds amongst ultra distance athletes, I do not know. But given the history it is not surprising to see TG's donors being treated in the same callous way. Which is a shame because he is by all accounts a really decent person.

If the above is true why did Hoppo get the job?

You would have to ask Steve.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Jaded on January 07, 2016, 06:55:40 am
I highly doubt there is anything nefarious going on here. But it is fair to note that Steve's team leader has a long history of begging money and crew online for his own races. The British cycling community is littered with unhappy ex donors and crew. Many crew have quit his races in the middle of the events. Whether this is because of bad manners, poor leadership  or just the type of extreme and off-putting self-involvement one sometimes finds amongst ultra distance athletes, I do not know. But given the history it is not surprising to see TG's donors being treated in the same callous way. Which is a shame because he is by all accounts a really decent person.

If the above is true why did Hoppo get the job?

You would have to ask Steve.

So, do you think it is true?
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 07, 2016, 06:59:44 am
As a former member of the team, I found his "management" style to be dysfunctional, but I was lead to believe by another member of this forum that he got the job because he put in many hours negotiating with The UMCA.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 07, 2016, 07:04:00 am
Jaded, does it matter what I think?

Despite the long-standing glaring need for changes to Steve's attempt and potential improvements being suggested, all in simple words for the hard of thinking, Steve's team is not changing their approach. The results will speak for themselves and will reflect appropriately on those making the decisions.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Jaded on January 07, 2016, 07:11:54 am
Jaded, does it matter what I think?

Despite the long-standing glaring need for changes to Steve's attempt and potential improvements being suggested, all in simple words for the hard of thinking, Steve's team is not changing their approach. The results will speak for themselves and will reflect appropriately on those making the decisions.

Well, you think it matters enough for you to comment on the thread. So yes, it matters. You appear to be on a mission - would be good to know why.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 07, 2016, 07:14:52 am
I want Steve to get the year record but he isn't going to, because of a heap of reasons. His team has not taken measures to reduce or eliminate those reasons. That's it, pure and simple.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: flashpeddler on January 07, 2016, 07:53:50 am
I've altered my SO to the new account.  I have every faith that my donation will be used to support Steve or will be donated to the named charities.  Go Steve!!
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Hummers on January 07, 2016, 08:23:37 am

I am happy to continue my support for Steve. Please can someone PM me the changed details?

H





Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Tim Hall on January 07, 2016, 09:06:38 am

I am happy to continue my support for Steve. Please can someone PM me the changed details?

H

PM sent
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2016, 09:16:27 am
I've altered my SO to the new account.  I have every faith that my donation will be used to support Steve or will be donated to the named charities. Go Steve!!

Same here.

It would be nice to have a general overview of how the money is being spent at some point, what surplus there is and what plans there are at the end of the attempt (tricky given that we don't know when this will be), but I don't have any concerns about how it seems to be run. From the looks of it the change is just to make the money go directly to Steve's account rather than via Roger as it did before. With hindsight I'm sure they would have set up the original donations differently but no-one has a time machine to go back and fix that.

I'm more than happy for my money to be used in anything connected to his attempt; whether it's wasted on a train ticket or hotel booking than ends up not being used, for buying endless amounts of toilet roll, for part paying any income tax or to cover missed NI contributions he may or may not end up having to pay, anything really. I'm donating it to be used as he sees best and I trust him to do that. I also trust anyone else with access to the money not to take the piss with it, and they wouldn't be taking the piss with my money at this point, they'd be taking the piss with Steve's money as (by that point) it's his not mine.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Hummers on January 07, 2016, 09:27:45 am

I am happy to continue my support for Steve. Please can someone PM me the changed details?

H

PM sent

 :thumbsup:

Cheers m'dears

H
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Jaded on January 07, 2016, 11:36:27 am
I want Steve to get the year record but he isn't going to, because of a heap of reasons. His team has not taken measures to reduce or eliminate those reasons. That's it, pure and simple.

There again is "I want". There a delightful post on another thread with "I want" in it several times.

This is actually about Steve, not any of the "I"s on here. You obviously have a problem with the team, but articulate this in a series of repetitive and negative posts on the forum, that dig at Steve.

I note there is also a post by you in the women's record thread saying she isn't riding fast enough. Kind of a meme. It's a bit tiring.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 07, 2016, 11:51:28 am
I want Steve to get the year record but he isn't going to, because of a heap of reasons. His team has not taken measures to reduce or eliminate those reasons. That's it, pure and simple.

There again is "I want". There a delightful post on another thread with "I want" in it several times.

This is actually about Steve, not any of the "I"s on here. You obviously have a problem with the team, but articulate this in a series of repetitive and negative posts on the forum, that dig at Steve.

I note there is also a post by you in the women's record thread saying she isn't riding fast enough. Kind of a meme. It's a bit tiring.

I am definitely having a dig at Steve's team and particularly the decision-makers, which is obvious in the highlighted text.

I don't understand why my wanting Steve to get the year record is a bad thing. Doesn't just about everybody reading this thread want Steve to get the record?
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Frank9755 on January 07, 2016, 11:52:43 am
I want Steve to get the year record but he isn't going to, because of a heap of reasons. His team has not taken measures to reduce or eliminate those reasons. That's it, pure and simple.

There again is "I want". There a delightful post on another thread with "I want" in it several times.

This is actually about Steve, not any of the "I"s on here. You obviously have a problem with the team, but articulate this in a series of repetitive and negative posts on the forum, that dig at Steve.

I note there is also a post by you in the women's record thread saying she isn't riding fast enough. Kind of a meme. It's a bit tiring.

Given that he stated what he wanted in answer to a direct question from you, your response seems, at best, contrived. I don't think this kind of thing is helping to advance the thread
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Jaded on January 07, 2016, 12:44:57 pm
I want Steve to get the year record but he isn't going to, because of a heap of reasons. His team has not taken measures to reduce or eliminate those reasons. That's it, pure and simple.

There again is "I want". There a delightful post on another thread with "I want" in it several times.

This is actually about Steve, not any of the "I"s on here. You obviously have a problem with the team, but articulate this in a series of repetitive and negative posts on the forum, that dig at Steve.

I note there is also a post by you in the women's record thread saying she isn't riding fast enough. Kind of a meme. It's a bit tiring.

Given that he stated what he wanted in answer to a direct question from you, your response seems, at best, contrived. I don't think this kind of thing is helping to advance the thread
I agree. I think you should stop replying to other's posts.  :P

It would be good for the relentless negativity to be toned down We know LWaB's position and probably don't need reminding of it again, again and again. The point has been made.

As for the money - it is an individual decision. There are already enough posts on this thread to let people make their own minds up.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 07, 2016, 01:03:36 pm
It would be good for the relentless negativity to be toned down We know LWaB's position and probably don't need reminding of it again, again and again. The point has been made.

As for the money - it is an individual decision. There are already enough posts on this thread to let people make their own minds up.

I prefer the term 'reality'.

I had already stopped explaining the 'lots of reasons' and stopped the 'Steve needs to ride 220-ish miles every single day till the finish' posts. It is blatantly obvious that the team isn't changing their approach, that Steve is not achieving the daily distances he requires and also obvious that a large number of people don't want to hear that. Jaded, I'll answer direct questions but otherwise I am leaving the train to continue to crash in slow motion. Does that make you happier?
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Nuncio on January 07, 2016, 01:17:22 pm
I am happy to continue my support for Steve. Please can someone PM me the changed details?

H

+1

And me please.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2016, 01:37:17 pm
It would be good for the relentless negativity to be toned down We know LWaB's position and probably don't need reminding of it again, again and again. The point has been made.

And you've made that point again and again before. But here you asked him for his opinion and then get annoyed when he gives you an answer! It's no great surprise it hasn't changed from the previous time he stated his opinion. Amazing.

I may disagree with LWaB on several points, but many (not all) of LWaB's posts further the discussion in some way.

Endless posts about how you believe they're too negative are not furthering any discussion and just seem like an attempt to stifle debate. [EDIT] Feel free to keep making them though if you must, don't want to be hypocritical.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Jaded on January 07, 2016, 02:05:12 pm
Stifling debate by criticising posts either way...  ;)

Anyway, LWaB has said that he intends to reduce his outflow, with a nice personally directed metaphor. Chapeau.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Ben T on January 07, 2016, 02:15:49 pm
As far as it looks to me personally the financial situation looks fine - they don't appear to have made any particular promises so none to break.
But then again I may be viewing it with the rose tinted specs of not having given any money in the first place, so haven't got any bad money to throw good money after.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: jsabine on January 07, 2016, 03:55:11 pm
I am happy to continue my support for Steve. Please can someone PM me the changed details?

H

+1

And me please.


The details are, AFAIA, available on the donations page of Steve's website - http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/donate

(In fact, they're there as an image, so embedding it here might work ...)

(http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/images/sortac.png)
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 07, 2016, 04:27:27 pm
Stifling debate by criticising posts either way...  ;)

Anyway, LWaB has said that he intends to reduce his outflow, with a nice personally directed metaphor. Chapeau.

EDIT
My apologies, Jaded.  I'm told that a car crash in slow motion would have been a better turn of phrase.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Frank9755 on January 07, 2016, 04:55:00 pm
I want Steve to get the year record but he isn't going to, because of a heap of reasons. His team has not taken measures to reduce or eliminate those reasons. That's it, pure and simple.

There again is "I want". There a delightful post on another thread with "I want" in it several times.

This is actually about Steve, not any of the "I"s on here. You obviously have a problem with the team, but articulate this in a series of repetitive and negative posts on the forum, that dig at Steve.

I note there is also a post by you in the women's record thread saying she isn't riding fast enough. Kind of a meme. It's a bit tiring.

Given that he stated what he wanted in answer to a direct question from you, your response seems, at best, contrived. I don't think this kind of thing is helping to advance the thread
I agree. I think you should stop replying to other's posts.  :P

It would be good for the relentless negativity to be toned down We know LWaB's position and probably don't need reminding of it again, again and again. The point has been made.

As for the money - it is an individual decision. There are already enough posts on this thread to let people make their own minds up.

I'm sure there is some pearl of wisdom in there that led you to make this post but I can't find it!
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2016, 05:08:37 pm
Anyway, LWaB has said that he intends to reduce his outflow, with a nice personally directed metaphor. Chapeau.

Oof, missed that first time round. That's low.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 07, 2016, 05:42:57 pm
I very much doubt it was deliberate. Nobody here would be that much of an utter c**t.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Wobbly on January 07, 2016, 07:35:08 pm
Stifling debate by criticising posts either way...

You'd know all about that wouldn't you. Personally I wish you'd STFU unless you have anything to contribute rather than your almost continual stream of nasty, sniping comments.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Legs on January 07, 2016, 07:46:32 pm
Blimey, I think this thread needs some of this:
(http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/b1581f3e-858f-4209-a112-5b919b0b2247/174433d6-0f1e-4f3b-ba7a-1ddb843c38b9.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBuCuA3F4BeXu2LSRWZyuwpJEuVLwNTDIydEMgE22KyRgABQQa)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5K2Ucyl2tZ00Ndqpn042XjICGZxeZqIkvGR49-u_ssSoRL8wyAg)
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Pale Rider on January 07, 2016, 07:50:13 pm
I think the thread needs to get back on track.

Perhaps it will with a meaningful financial update from the team.

Cue: a picture of flying pigs.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: toontra on January 07, 2016, 08:22:48 pm
Fidgetbuzz's tenure as head of finance was marked by his desire to keep donors informed about the state of the accounts.  He was the only one of the original team that seemed to feel any need to be accountable (pun intended), possibly against the will of others (which is presumably why things broke down).

Whoever is doing the finances now obviously feels no similar obligation.  Back to the bunker.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 07, 2016, 08:38:44 pm
As a sort of addendum to my earlier post https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=95167.msg1969242#msg1969242 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=95167.msg1969242#msg1969242) I think it is worth mentioning again that the earlier version of Steve’s donation page had a link beside the bank details that allowed one to let the team know that you had donated, thereby providing them with contact details. For those who did not take that option, the team have no way of contacting them, which I think mitigates the lack of updates to a degree.

The option to let the team know has disappeared now but there is the option of signing up to a planned newsletter:

http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/newsletter

Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Arry-R on January 07, 2016, 08:42:40 pm
Fidgetbuzz's tenure as head of finance was marked by his desire to keep donors informed about the state of the accounts.  He was the only one of the original team that seemed to feel any need to be accountable (pun intended), possibly against the will of others (which is presumably why things broke down).

Whoever is doing the finances now obviously feels no similar obligation.  Back to the bunker.



Could not agree more. He was the only one who acknowledged donations.  My thanks to him for his email updates.  As the fund is still very healthy until August why is there the wish  (at the moment ) to increase it?  If Steve would accept more support and more money was needed then a cry for help would be all that were needed
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Ben T on January 07, 2016, 09:15:42 pm
Stifling debate by criticising posts either way...  ;)

Anyway, LWaB has said that he intends to reduce his outflow, with a nice personally directed metaphor. Chapeau.

EDIT
My apologies, Jaded.  I'm told that a car crash in slow motion would have been a better turn of phrase.

I once had a car crash. I find that personally directed metaphor highly offensive to such an extent that I'm actively traumatized.  ::-)
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Ivo on January 07, 2016, 09:50:30 pm
I am happy to continue my support for Steve. Please can someone PM me the changed details?

H

+1

And me please.


The details are, AFAIA, available on the donations page of Steve's website - http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/donate

(In fact, they're there as an image, so embedding it here might work ...)

(http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/images/sortac.png)

That wont help for international payments.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Von Broad on January 07, 2016, 10:02:42 pm
I am happy to continue my support for Steve. Please can someone PM me the changed details?

H

+1

And me please.


The details are, AFAIA, available on the donations page of Steve's website - http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/donate

(In fact, they're there as an image, so embedding it here might work ...)

(http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/images/sortac.png)

That wont help for international payments.

That's irrelevant it's an exclusively British record  :)
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2016, 10:51:31 pm
That wont help for international payments.

The previous account details wouldn't have either. It was a change from one UK bank account to another.

The donation page also contains a link to donate via PayPal. Those details haven't changed and that should work for international donations (assuming you don't boycott Paypal). There's no need to have a PayPal account to make a donation through them, they'll take the money from a debit or credit card.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: jsabine on January 08, 2016, 12:57:35 am
That wont help for international payments.

It's entirely possible that members of Steve's team would be able to provide IBAN details (or whatever you need) if you (or any other putative international donor) asked them directly, while, as GB notes, there's also a paypal link on the donation page.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: contango on January 08, 2016, 04:32:07 am

I'm not even sure that it's relevant to consider him a sole trader. If he's just an individual and a number of other individuals have freely chosen to give him small amounts of money periodically, is it even relevant what he calls himself? I wouldn't have thought any tax would be due unless he's receiving huge amounts of money from specific individuals. I'm not an accountant but my understanding is that if someone decided they just wanted to chuck a few quid my way the nice men at HMRC take no interest until "a few quid" starts to mean a fair chunk of change. The money has presumably already been taxed once and is being handed over as a gift rather than a payment for goods or services.


You would be wrong, entirely.

All the money given to Steve either in cash or benefit may be considered his income, and taxable, no matter that it was paid over by taxpayers. All the sponsorship may be considered benefit in kind, and taxable. Of course the first £10K would be covered by allowances. Technically whatever account it is paid into, if it is "his" money it is his income to declare. Conceivably if held at arm's length (as in, a third party's account) it should be easier not to have to recognise the revenue stream as it appeared. In addition to that, Steve will need to consider the status of his national insurance contributions or risk a penalty to his pension in later years.

I'm surprised by that, I'd have thought that money freely given in exchange for nothing would count as a gift and therefore not income unless any one individual gave enough to make it liable for what always used to be called capital transfer tax.

The national insurance issue where pensions are concerned is obviously a potentially valid concern, although if donations are considered income and subject to income tax they would probably also be subject to NIC as well? If that's the case maybe the pension issue isn't a problem.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on January 08, 2016, 04:34:00 am
Arrived in OZ 12 hours ago -- not able to find time to read all of this thread  -- but some quickies -- Steve is not a sole trader -- you are making donations, gifts or presents to him .. it is not taxable income in his hands and for a donor falls foul of inheritance tax rules if you a) donate more than £3000 a year in slugs of £250 - and b) also die within 7 years . Do remember I was never a personal tax specialist -- so this might be a slightly incorrect summary -- but the gist is right.

As regards  the change of bank details -- the logic is straight forward -- when I stood down mid Sept - rather than ask all existing standing order donors to cancel the payment to my Steve account and reissue a new instruction to their bank -- when there might well have been quite a few who  were stopping at Dec anyway ..   so scope to ignore forget cock up etc   -- we decided to let things lie -- and each 1st of the month I transfer to Steves own personal account the balance and inform Idai of the detail. This involves me in about 10 minutes work a month -- and I am happy to continue to do this.  Now in 2016 the sums coming into my Steve account will diminish as those who were in for 12 months will stop -- and later on April / May -- I ( or we) might have a go at getting those that are still continuing to transfer across.

At one time there was discussion amongst the team that several people should have access to Steves personal account -- I advised Steve against this -- as the scope for misunderstandings, an dlack of accountability was too great .. whether he took my advice I do not know. The need to actually PAY things was tiny --, Steve carried a debit card on my Steve account and  the MK crew had  a float advance which they accounted to me on a monthly basis and were then reimbursed, and as I discovered when I stepped away the debit card for Steves personal account was already held by one of the MK crew anyway. Any other payments were extremely unusual ( entry to 24 hour TT etc and all the PBP organisation , ferries, hotels , support vehicle)) -- so the need for multiple access to the account seemed inappropriate to me. And without in any way casting aspersions -- there are many cases of trusted officials and treasurers borrowing cash which they always intend to pay back -- but actually fail to do so. I am afraid I bring 40 years of cynicism with me .. so my mantra would be "" Minimise the risk"" so in this case .. reduce the number of people with access to the cash.. 

As regards total funds -- when I stepped down -- as far as I could judge, given the cash balance and even assuming that no standing orders continued into 2016 - there would have been sufficient funds for Steve to have continued in the same sort of way thru to Aug 2016.. but if he started using vehicle transfers a lot , or decided that 3 months at a gite in Southern France was needed or serious professional advice on nutrition and diet then these would have been factors that I would not have considered as they were and are "" Unknowns "" .

I will read this thread more carefully when I hav etime -- but if you do have a specific query that I can fairly reply to ( and exact detail of the cash balance I handed over etc is inappropriate ) -- please pm me
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: postie on January 08, 2016, 08:28:23 am
Fidgetbuzz, Thanks for the info :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Arry-R on January 08, 2016, 10:33:07 am
Fidgetbuzz, Thanks for the info :thumbsup:



PLUS ONE  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Ivo on January 08, 2016, 10:59:52 am
That wont help for international payments.

The previous account details wouldn't have either. It was a change from one UK bank account to another.

The donation page also contains a link to donate via PayPal. Those details haven't changed and that should work for international donations (assuming you don't boycott Paypal). There's no need to have a PayPal account to make a donation through them, they'll take the money from a debit or credit card.

The previous details did since there was an IBAN number mentioned at least here on YACF.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Greenbank on January 08, 2016, 11:07:57 am
That wont help for international payments.

The previous account details wouldn't have either. It was a change from one UK bank account to another.

The donation page also contains a link to donate via PayPal. Those details haven't changed and that should work for international donations (assuming you don't boycott Paypal). There's no need to have a PayPal account to make a donation through them, they'll take the money from a debit or credit card.

The previous details did since there was an IBAN number mentioned at least here on YACF.

You can calculate the IBAN from the sort code and account number given.

http://www.ibancalculator.com/bic_und_iban.html

Gives this for that sort code and account number: IBAN: GB79MIDL40231111386093

Caveat donator. You donation may be at risk if you do not get this checked before using it, etc, etc. It looks legit to me as the last 14 digits are just the original sort code and account number, the first bit is the two letter country code and I guess Steve banks with what was Midland Bank, now HSBC (and the sort code confirms that), and the 79 are check digits which pass the various IBAN checkers I can find.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: marcusjb on January 08, 2016, 11:10:12 am
Or just email the team?

I know they're not great communicators, but I am sure they can provide that information.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 08, 2016, 12:10:29 pm
-- Steve is not a sole trader -- you are making donations, gifts or presents to him .. it is not taxable income in his hands and for a donor falls foul of inheritance tax rules if you a) donate more than £3000 a year in slugs of £250 - and b) also die within 7 years . Do remember I was never a personal tax specialist -- so this might be a slightly incorrect summary -- but the gist is right.



Thanks for that FB. I've no idea what sort of sums we are talking about, I assume around the taxable threshold. But I had visions of the project running away with itself, and Steve left with an unforeseen liability at the end. The notion of gifts and inheritance tax fits well with the idea of Steve being supported by a family of donors.

I've got footage of a discussion between Heather and yourself about the catering and payment facilities at PBP, there are a number of discussions about that in fact. It's possible to be analytical and critical about an event you love. In fact if you have any insight, it's important that you do analyse and criticise.

It's something that we Brits find difficult to do, except in hindsight. I asked a German at the Semaine Federale if they could organise something on that scale in Germany. She felt that any detailed analysis would show that the event would fail, so no-one would take it on. Everyone assumes that the British will make a virtue of muddling through in the first instance, tighten things up as they go along, and finally win out. Mainly because they don't know when they are beaten, due to a lack of management information.
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Wowbagger on January 08, 2016, 12:12:51 pm
That's how we won the war!
[/captain mainwaring]
Title: Re: Why the need for more money?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 08, 2016, 12:21:33 pm
PBP and LEL have their project management tourists. Once you've project managed your own participation a few times, you look round and wonder how the event is put on. Heather DNF'd once, finished in time once, supported and filmed twice, and filmed once. This edition she was timing the cashiers in the cafeteria at Brest to determine if that was the main bottleneck. If you've managed a control on LEL since 2001 it interests you.