Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Wobbly on January 11, 2016, 04:06:17 pm

Title: [HAMR] More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 11, 2016, 04:06:17 pm
A few ill considered posts notwithstanding I don't think the previous thread should have been closed.

Let's carry on discussing Steve's record attempt here shall we?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Basil on January 11, 2016, 04:15:10 pm
 ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: jochta on January 11, 2016, 04:19:52 pm
Are we not allowed to have thoughts on the current record attempt(s)? Or do we have to keep them to ourselves?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: IJL on January 11, 2016, 04:20:41 pm
He's going to try to ride a lot of miles on a lot of days.  He may ride enough miles on enough days or he may not, time will tell.

I wish him all the luck world. I will and offer nothing further as I am reminded of a great philosopher who compared opinions to the final stage of the human digestive tract
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Freya on January 11, 2016, 04:24:09 pm
Which presumably makes discussion boards such as this completely pointless.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 11, 2016, 04:26:02 pm
Personally I found the considered analysis from people who know what they are on about both interesting and useful information for my own riding.  Hopefully there is plenty more of that ...and much less infinite dissection of each others posts.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: JohnR on January 11, 2016, 04:33:57 pm
Can't help thinking my last post was the straw that broke the camel's back - poor choice of words.
Won't post on here in future, sorry guys.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Arry-R on January 11, 2016, 04:40:40 pm
;D

Quote

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: IJL on January 11, 2016, 04:43:48 pm
Quote
Which presumably makes discussion boards such as this completely pointless

Beyond a certain point, yes.  There comes a point when its all been said and said again.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 11, 2016, 04:46:04 pm
It seems that nobody can comment on a person's support team here, other than positively.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Chris S on January 11, 2016, 04:48:24 pm
It seems that nobody can comment on a person's support team here, other than positively.

Probably more a reflection of the number of times the comments were reiterated though - positive and negative.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 11, 2016, 04:55:18 pm
It seems that nobody can comment on a person's support team here, other than positively.

Probably more a reflection of the number of times the comments were reiterated though - positive and negative.

"Excellence to each other, to those riding the HAMR and their teams is the protocol my circuits have been programmed to follow." seems to prevent anything other than positive comments.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 11, 2016, 04:55:59 pm
Can't help thinking my last post was the straw that broke the camel's back - poor choice of words.
Won't post on here in future, sorry guys.

Nah, I'm sure it was because it was due to get far too exciting.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 11, 2016, 04:56:34 pm
There's a cohort of Audax riders who took up riding from the old ACF, and Steve helped them get their first 600. That means a lot to them, and they're loyal.
Others predate and postdate that, and their attitudes are different.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: IJL on January 11, 2016, 04:59:17 pm
Quote
Can't help thinking my last post was the straw that broke the camel's back - poor choice of words.
Won't post on here in future, sorry guys.

Your post summed up the sittuation quite well, your choice of words would have been better if you had a better support team, perhaps with a motor home and a thesaurus
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: fboab on January 11, 2016, 05:03:17 pm
Steve was on/ part of/ an instigator for my first 600, I consider him a bit of a hero. He was the first person I ever met from yacf- I got the train from BSE to Cambridge for a ride, he'd just ridden over from MK. He was sitting outside the station stuffing his face. I gave him cake for breakfast ;D


That doesn't make me completely blind to the enormity of the task facing him at the moment. I just don't see how he can make the numbers work.

'Steve knows what he's doing' has become a mantra. I worry that he doesn't, that he's battling on regardless. I'm worried that when it's all over, he'll have cycled himself into the ground and not have gained the record, and I don't want that to happen.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hatler on January 11, 2016, 05:06:38 pm
It seems that nobody can comment on a person's support team here, other than positively.

Probably more a reflection of the number of times the comments were reiterated though - positive and negative.

"Excellence to each other, to those riding the HAMR and their teams is the protocol my circuits have been programmed to follow." seems to prevent anything other than positive comments.

Not really. I think 'excellence' mostly involves being polite and not being insulting.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 11, 2016, 05:08:40 pm
So we can politely say that somebody is doing it all wrong?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: jochta on January 11, 2016, 05:11:03 pm
So we can politely say that somebody is doing it all wrong?

Like we did with Miles?

Quote
deluded

Quote
out of step with the facts

Just a couple of quickly found quotes from the Miles thread.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 11, 2016, 05:12:38 pm
I think that facts are a sufficient defence against charges of slander, your honour.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Tigerrr on January 11, 2016, 05:25:21 pm
Maybe Mrs Miles will divulge the corridor conversation today that caused her to pull down the shutters.   
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Basil on January 11, 2016, 05:40:29 pm
So we can politely say that somebody is doing it all wrong?

Like we did with Miles?

Quote
deluded

Quote
out of step with the facts

Just a couple of quickly found quotes from the Miles thread.

I think that the point is the rule that we should be excellent to each other.
There is no rule about making negative comments.  Take a look at the "Super Twat" or "Today's Motorised Moron" threads, for instance.
Disagreement is fine, but we should show excellence as we do it.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 11, 2016, 06:21:55 pm
Quote
Which presumably makes discussion boards such as this completely pointless

Beyond a certain point, yes.  There comes a point when its all been said and said again.

Since when was that an issue? You may find it tedious, but it's the nature of conversation. It's certainly not a reason to lock a thread. The level of 'lack of excellence' was trivial; no-one threw the smallest teddy out of their cot. I have to say that it looked suspiciously (to me) like it was locked because there was an uncomfortable degree of lack of faith in Steve's liklihood of making the targetted distance. Silencing an opinion won't change it, and risks reactions which were unintended.

I have to say I am livid that it was closed.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Kim on January 11, 2016, 06:24:15 pm
Can we wait for the moderator(s) to take action before passing judgement on them?  It's only reasonable that they can lock a thread and take time to discuss it before composing and posting (which also takes time) an official ruling on ...whatever.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 11, 2016, 06:29:24 pm
Can we wait for the moderator(s) to take action before passing judgement on them?  It's only reasonable that they can lock a thread and take time to discuss it before composing and posting (which also takes time) an official ruling on ...whatever.

The action has been taken. The opportunity to give at least a holding explanation is offered to a moderator at the point of locking a thread, but in this case it wasn't taken. Frankly, given the interest in that thread, I regard that as plain rude.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Pale Rider on January 11, 2016, 06:30:09 pm
Quote
Which presumably makes discussion boards such as this completely pointless

Beyond a certain point, yes.  There comes a point when its all been said and said again.

Since when was that an issue? You may find it tedious, but it's the nature of conversation. It's certainly not a reason to lock a thread. The level of 'lack of excellence' was trivial; no-one threw the smallest teddy out of their cot. I have to say that it looked suspiciously (to me) like it was locked because there was an uncomfortable degree of lack of faith in Steve's liklihood of making the targetted distance. Silencing an opinion won't change it, and risks reactions which were unintended.

I have to say I am livid that it was closed.

Agreed, particularly as it appears fine by management for a former mod on here to tell us all to eff off.

There does appear to be an inference that only cheerleading posts are to be allowed.

Hopefully I will be proved wrong about that by this discussion thread being allowed to continue.


Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Kim on January 11, 2016, 06:32:25 pm
Can we wait for the moderator(s) to take action before passing judgement on them?  It's only reasonable that they can lock a thread and take time to discuss it before composing and posting (which also takes time) an official ruling on ...whatever.

The action has been taken. The opportunity to give at least a holding explanation is offered to a moderator at the point of locking a thread, but in this case it wasn't taken. Frankly, given the interest in that thread, I regard that as plain rude.

I regard it as the action of someone with other higher-priority commitments, such as a day job, commuting or food to attend to before they can don the asbestos underpants and start dealing with the fall-out.  For all we know, they were halfway through a post when our-favourite-telco cut them off.

It seems unlikely that they're intending to leave it like that for a significant period of time, but this is a web forum, not an IRC channel.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 11, 2016, 06:33:58 pm
I hope you're right, Kim, but the likelihood of significant fallout increases with the delay in explaining the actions.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Kim on January 11, 2016, 06:35:07 pm
I hope you're right, Kim, but the likelihood of significant fallout increases with the delay in explaining the actions.

Perhaps, but if were able to maintain a sufficient standard of excellence, it shouldn't.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 11, 2016, 06:37:37 pm
I hope you're right, Kim, but the likelihood of significant fallout increases with the delay in explaining the actions.

Perhaps, but if were able to maintain a sufficient standard of excellence, it shouldn't.

Are you my mother reincarnated? ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 11, 2016, 06:38:11 pm
Now we've really gone off on a tangent :)

I've been involved in moderating fora (that's forums to you and me) on the internet and company intranets for 20+ years. My strong advice to moderators is never, ever explain the reasons for your actions.

That is all.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 11, 2016, 06:43:09 pm
Now we've really gone off on a tangent :)

I've been involved in moderating fora (that's forums to you and me) on the internet and company intranets for 20+ years. My strong advice to moderators is never, ever explain the reasons for your actions.

That is all.


Yes, we have. And so have I - some of you will know me from PPRuNe. Not explaining actions is fine when you're weeding stuff out or quietly removing trolls, but locking a thread which has a big following needs some explanation when the reason isn't obvious - and, in this case, I don't think it is obvious. As I said above, the level of sub-optimal excellence was trivial. Yes, the thread was going round in circles a bit, but it's a year-long (or, in Steve's case, 20 months) challenge and it will go round in circles.

We'll move on, but my faith in the neutrality of YACF moderation has been severely shaken.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 11, 2016, 07:09:08 pm
I hope you're right, Kim, but the likelihood of significant fallout increases with the delay in explaining the actions.

Don't those that donate to keeping things going deserve to be kept updated?

(Now, am I talking about those that contribute to keeping the yacf servers running or to keep Steve's attempt running?)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 11, 2016, 07:14:14 pm
A reason has been given. Actually, it was some time ago, but I didn't see it as it appears I was seeing a cached version of the content page as my internet was playing up - so I apologise for accusing the mods of not doing so. However, it is indeed apparently 'lack of excellence' and circularity which have upset the mods. I suspect that, without any other action, this or any other thread discussing the HAM'R will repeat the same crimes - and, indeed, the same posts.

So; Steve - is he doing it right, and should he stop now....?!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hellymedic on January 11, 2016, 07:17:48 pm
I think that's for Steve to decide.
I don't know how amenable he is to anyone's advice.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Chris S on January 11, 2016, 07:21:38 pm
Well. At least we're giving Kurt plenty to read while he's got his feet up  ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 11, 2016, 07:31:56 pm
I think that's for Steve to decide.
I don't know how amenable he is to anyone's advice.

That's part of the point, Helly. We are talking about him (and Bruce, Kurt, Miles, Bill and Kajsa), not to him.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 11, 2016, 07:36:27 pm
However, it is indeed apparently 'lack of excellence' and circularity which have upset the mods. I suspect that, without any other action, this or any other thread discussing the HAM'R will repeat the same crimes - and, indeed, the same posts.

So; Steve - is he doing it right, and should he stop now....?!
Someone calmer than me made a post about how we might have more constructive debate:

Post by: Greenbank on January 06, 2016, 01:08:09 pm
Quote from: <some idiot> on January 06, 2016, 12:31:11 pm
...
This is a forum. We discuss stuff. I don't see the point of a "virtual letter box" where people just dump their thoughts, if no one is going to read them. And for me, just reading the stuff is pretty dull - what makes forums fun is the discussion.
...

I'm all for the actual discussions but the biggest problem with this place (forums or even the Internet in general, so it's not specific to yacf) is many people simply can't be arsed to read and digest the recent history of a thread before posting in it.

The leads to the same things being brought up again and again (despite them often being discussed thoroughly at some point before) and just causes frustration for the people that are reading, digesting, discussing, arguing, rebutting, etc. Maybe this is what makes it look like a virtual letter box. Novel ideas/thoughts are welcome, but many of the posts aren't novel or don't further a discussion.

Maybe splitting certain bits off into separate threads "Steve's choice of bike", "Transfers and tailwinds", etc would help those with short attention spans.

[EDIT] Mind you, we'd need to move the old (inactive for more than 7 days maybe) daily update threads to a new sub-sub-forum so that the other threads are visible on the first page.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 11, 2016, 07:48:15 pm
Or alternatively a digest of particularly useful posts in a kind of FAQ thread, unavailable for public posting. But, yes, a good point.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: ElyDave on January 11, 2016, 07:49:22 pm
Now we've really gone off on a tangent :)

I've been involved in moderating fora (that's forums to you and me) on the internet and company intranets for 20+ years. My strong advice to moderators is never, ever explain the reasons for your actions.

That is all.
Same applies to refereeing rugby matches.

I only ever explained one decision on the pitch

In the bar afterwards was open for discussion over a beer
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: saturn on January 11, 2016, 09:28:31 pm
Would it be possible to have one thread to discuss "thoughts on the current record attempt(s)" and another to discuss the rights and wrongs of doing so?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Arry-R on January 11, 2016, 09:38:40 pm
Would it be possible to have one thread to discuss "thoughts on the current record attempt(s)" and another to discuss the rights and wrongs of doing so?


 ;D  ummm
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Pickled Onion on January 11, 2016, 09:44:39 pm
Would it be possible to have one thread to discuss "thoughts on the current record attempt(s)" and another to discuss the rights and wrongs of doing so?

Perhaps we should have threads for "positive thoughts on the current record attempt(s)", "negative thoughts on the current record attempt(s)" and "thoughts on the thoughts on the current record attempt(s) thread".

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: simonp on January 11, 2016, 09:44:50 pm
See 'herding cats'.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 11, 2016, 09:53:09 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc&feature=youtu.be&list=PL4A119B37EDE10A15&t=245

Hmm.. that didn't work. Try this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc&feature=youtu.be&list=PL4A119B37EDE10A15&t=245
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: contango on January 12, 2016, 03:44:06 am
It seems that nobody can comment on a person's support team here, other than positively.

Probably more a reflection of the number of times the comments were reiterated though - positive and negative.

"Excellence to each other, to those riding the HAMR and their teams is the protocol my circuits have been programmed to follow." seems to prevent anything other than positive comments.

Not necessarily, you can say someone's analysis is silly without saying they are silly and indeed without saying Steve is silly.

We can wish someone well in an effort even if we're not sure they are likely to be successful. We can still wish them well while pointing out ways that their effort may not be successful. I think management jargon calls that sort of thing "risk analysis".

I'd hope that the team have done fairly extensive risk analysis and continue to do it but presenting a risk analysis pointing to the conclusion that the effort is unlikely to be successful doesn't seem to fail the excellence test as far as I can see.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: contango on January 12, 2016, 03:48:06 am
Can we wait for the moderator(s) to take action before passing judgement on them?  It's only reasonable that they can lock a thread and take time to discuss it before composing and posting (which also takes time) an official ruling on ...whatever.

It's nice when there's at least a holding post to make it clear the thread was locked intentionally. Even if all they say is "locked pending review" at least we know it wasn't a slip of the mouse somewhere.

I've been on other forums where moderators accidentally locked threads. With the best will in the world, it happens. The post, even if it's just two or three words, just lets people know it was a deliberate moderator intervention.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 12, 2016, 04:43:02 am
Now we've really gone off on a tangent :)

I've been involved in moderating fora (that's forums to you and me) on the internet and company intranets for 20+ years. My strong advice to moderators is never, ever explain the reasons for your actions.

That is all.
Same applies to refereeing rugby matches.

I only ever explained one decision on the pitch

In the bar afterwards was open for discussion over a beer

I always explain every decision when reffing  rugby, usually along the lines of "knock on but no advantage from blue offside here so penalty to red". Explanation is different to discussion.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: ElyDave on January 12, 2016, 07:42:12 am
Now we've really gone off on a tangent :)

I've been involved in moderating fora (that's forums to you and me) on the internet and company intranets for 20+ years. My strong advice to moderators is never, ever explain the reasons for your actions.

That is all.
Same applies to refereeing rugby matches.

I only ever explained one decision on the pitch

In the bar afterwards was open for discussion over a beer

I always explain every decision when reffing  rugby, usually along the lines of "knock on but no advantage from blue offside here so penalty to red". Explanation is different to discussion.

Agreed, I would say that IS the decision, rather than an explanation.

Rather than "you played the ball in touch [because of ensuing explanation of the law on touch.....]" which then becomes explanation/discussion rather than a decision.  Remember "the referee is the sole judge of fact"
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 12, 2016, 08:27:28 am
So this is a time-constrained rugby match? Forgive me, I hadn't noticed.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Arry-R on January 12, 2016, 08:43:22 am
So this is a time-constrained rugby match? Forgive me, I hadn't noticed.


  ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mustgettaller on January 12, 2016, 08:46:53 am
I think this thread is failing to live up to its title. It should be "thoughts on locking rambling maybe circular threads which otherwise are what forums/fora are all about." A bit of a mouthful I admit.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 12, 2016, 09:13:49 am
I think this thread is failing to live up to its title. It should be "thoughts on locking rambling maybe circular threads which otherwise are what forums/fora are all about." A bit of a mouthful I admit.
But a great title, nonetheless! But point taken; I will desist.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: ElyDave on January 12, 2016, 09:19:02 am
So this is a time-constrained rugby match? Forgive me, I hadn't noticed.

well there didn't seem to be many thoughts on the thread title (I don't think we're allowed any more), so I was just rambling until something else came along
 ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 12, 2016, 09:43:29 am
So this is a time-constrained rugby match? Forgive me, I hadn't noticed.

Indeed, let's get back to discussing whether Mods should or should not leave messages in threads that they've locked.

Or, how about anyone posting something novel or otherwise furthering the discussion about the current record attempt(s).
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 12, 2016, 09:52:09 am
Looking at the way Bruce is going about this is quite interesting.    Basically he has a long flat lead out towards the mountains where he is regularly over 20mph.  Then his speed and effort is very steady as he climbs long, steady gradients ....hes then exploding onto the descents and flat at the end.

That is vastly different from what Steve and Kurt are/were up to - Steve just doesn't have the terrain for that kind of thing.

Seems very sensible though.  I heard Bruce talking about getting light and being ready for climbing and that seemed a bit weird compared to what Kurt was doing successfully at the time.   Seems to me that if you are a great climber, and then you find a route with long, steady climbs that you can go up at half effort - then you get a massive pay off once you reach the top and get long, cheap 30-40mph sections in the latter half of your day.

The efforts he is putting in are likely to keep him sharp and fast too - I don't think he is going to suffer from the de-training that I fear Steve has suffered from.   I guess it will come down to how he can sustain these efforts over the course of a year - Kurt seemed to handle it well enough!

The choice of location for Bruce seemed odd on first reading of his elevation stats but when you look at the climbs he has picked it could be a bit of a master stroke.

His distances and speeds to start off with are pretty astonishing
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 12, 2016, 09:57:42 am
Bruce is an ex-pro, I believe (Sigma Sport), and currently either an Elite or 1st Cat rider, and his riding reflects that pedigree. Obviously he's very comfortable with hard riding, and he'd probably regard 30kmh as a relatively low average speed, even though it's beyond most of us. Given the discussions in the old thread about how a pro would fare, I suggest Bruce will go a long way towards answering that.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 12, 2016, 09:59:54 am
Any discussion is essentially window dressing. The progress of the attempt is graphically displayed at the thread at the top of the page. Sports analogies have been made, but it's actually more like the sort of presentation you see on the financial pages.
Kurt and Alicia countered this by humanising their efforts in a series of wobbly videos with wind noise. Steve has no appetite for that, any such videos have come from Idai. Discussion has clustered around the stats, as if we were living in the era when a test match in Australia was reported by telex.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 12, 2016, 10:00:52 am
Bruce's plans will have to change as he's due to come over to the UK for the (Northern Hemisphere) summer months. If he bases himself in SW London again then there's no nice long steady mountain climbs at the end of a flat section.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 12, 2016, 10:02:46 am
Bruce is an ex-pro, I believe (Sigma Sport), and currently either an Elite or 1st Cat rider, and his riding reflects that pedigree. Obviously he's very comfortable with hard riding, and he'd probably regard 30kmh as a relatively low average speed, even though it's beyond most of us. Given the discussions in the old thread about how a pro would fare, I suggest Bruce will go a long way towards answering that.

I think it is great that we have already seen such vastly different approaches to the record.   You have Steve with the low HR, plodders, self supported method .... then Kurt with the closed roads, group laps and the RV supported long wind assisted straights ... and even Miles with the train transfers was interesting.  Now Bruce who seems to be riding the kind of routes you would see during a professional winter training camp - cant wait to see what approach he takes when he comes back to Britain.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Legs on January 12, 2016, 10:07:04 am
The monthly mini-targets are rather misleading since they end up giving Steve 77149.5 - I'll have a stab at pro-rating them down to give a total of 76076

Achieving 77149.5 (given that ~30000 has been achieved already) would require 2.1% more mileage from this point on than 76076.  So I've knocked 2.1% off Steve's schedule for a JIT beating of the record (and it would be Just In Time, since he'd be approaching the Searvogel line from below)  The modified monthly target mileages are

Jan - 200.7
Feb - 217.0
Mar - 220.8
Apr - 232.0
May - 227.2
Jun - 229.6
Jul - 221.9
Aug - 205.6

(ETA - probably not massively different from just knocking 4.7 mpd off the scheduled mileages)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: madcow on January 12, 2016, 10:13:45 am
(http://suchsmallportions.com/sites/default/files/images/father-dougal.jpg)

That's how to start the wrong kind of discussion , my friend.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 12, 2016, 10:15:06 am
Bruce's Garmin, yesterday:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYbUCfLU0AAkMk6.jpg)

Bum, that didn't work - try this:

Clicky (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYbUCfLU0AAkMk6.jpg)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: rafletcher on January 12, 2016, 10:21:16 am


Bum, that didn't work - try this:


Yes, it did  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 12, 2016, 10:32:57 am
I wonder if Chris Hopkinson is going to make an attempt ?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 12, 2016, 10:44:50 am


Bum, that didn't work - try this:


Yes, it did  :thumbsup:

Ah, I can't see it!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: MrDrem on January 12, 2016, 10:51:54 am
Bruce's Garmin, yesterday:

<snip image>

Bum, that didn't work - try this:

Clicky (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYbUCfLU0AAkMk6.jpg)

Good, that seems to suggest that the Strava Mileage is about correct (assuming thats at the end of the ride) 340km = 211.3 miles, and Strava is showing exactly that for the 11th.

I've just updated https://goo.gl/RBHtiS with details from the UMCA Official results page, which now runs to the 4th of Jan, meaning that Steve's original distance has now been verified as 63568.2 miles. Kurt is still missing a few verified days, and oddly there's no mention of Bruce yet.

Bruce's twitter suggests that he's found Katusha today
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 12, 2016, 10:53:06 am
Bruce is an ex-pro, I believe (Sigma Sport), and currently either an Elite or 1st Cat rider, and his riding reflects that pedigree. Obviously he's very comfortable with hard riding, and he'd probably regard 30kmh as a relatively low average speed, even though it's beyond most of us. Given the discussions in the old thread about how a pro would fare, I suggest Bruce will go a long way towards answering that.

I tried to find some results for Bruce. He was 9th in a Surrey League race in 2003.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/UK/2003/sep03/sep14lesingman

That seems to be a Norwood Paragon promotion, Evans seemed to sponsor the series back then. They're more into sportives now.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 12, 2016, 11:23:28 am
Bruce is an ex-pro, I believe (Sigma Sport), and currently either an Elite or 1st Cat rider, and his riding reflects that pedigree. Obviously he's very comfortable with hard riding, and he'd probably regard 30kmh as a relatively low average speed, even though it's beyond most of us. Given the discussions in the old thread about how a pro would fare, I suggest Bruce will go a long way towards answering that.

I tried to find some results for Bruce. He was 9th in a Surrey League race in 2003.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/UK/2003/sep03/sep14lesingman

That seems to be a Norwood Paragon promotion, Evans seemed to sponsor the series back then. They're more into sportives now.

I know he is going to be blogging exclusively with Bikeradar which I suspect will mean he has some fairly professional coverage when back in Blighty and also some serious exposure.

I read quite a bit about him when he broke the month record last year...sounds an interesting story.   Also sounds like he had a promising pro career that got cut short ...that could mean he has much more mileage and desire left in the tank than your average ex pro

If everything goes to plan, Bruce Berkeley will soon hold the Guinness World Record for the greatest distance ever ridden in a month. He already holds the record for the most kilometres cycled in a week — 2,825km which he managed in the UK last year — and in the past three weeks, Berkeley has clocked up 6,615.3km (as of January 22, 2015).

So why exactly is Berkeley putting himself through the challenge of riding more than 300km a day? He simply wants to get the record.

“There’s not an official month record right now. When I applied for the record they [the Guinness Book of World Records] said to me I have to do at least 5,000km,” Berkeley said. “But if you look on Strava there are lots of people who have done that in a single month.”

“So I took it in my head that 10,000 would be a good figure. People don’t do 10,000km and you don’t see that come up on Strava. The most I’ve ever seen is seven [thousand kilometres] so I thought around about 10,000km was good.”

“That’ll be a big push in the last week.”

To really get a sense of why he’s doing this, you need to know Berkeley’s backstory.

Originally from New Zealand but having lived in the UK for 21 years, Berkeley once raced at a high level with Sigma-Sport, a UK Continental team. After his racing career he opened up a bike shop with two business partners whom he didn’t know as well as he thought.

“My two business partners got arrested for a case that was worth £350 million (AUD$655 million) if you can believe it”, Berkeley told CyclingTips. “It sounds like a story you’d hear in a movie. It wasn’t to do with the bike shop, it had to do with previous business dealings.”
And that’s when Berkeley’s life went into a downward spiral.

“I lost everything. My relationship, my business … then I began hitting the bottle and drinking far too much. It went on for a couple years and thought ‘I’m not going to live much longer like this’ so I just woke up one day and decided to change things and I was brought back to cycling.”

Disinterested in competitive racing, Berkeley looked to other challenges to motivate his riding. He began ticking off Strava challenges which gave him an outlet to keep his competitive side satisfied.

“I’m a bit too old now to think about racing now and have already raced at a decent level, so for me I know I’m not going to be good at that side of cycling at my age. This is something I enjoy and I can do on my own time…as much as you can enjoy 315km a day!”

And he has been enjoying it. The combination of Sportful knicks and a Selle Italia SLR saddle on a Canyon Ultimate CF SLX has been keeping him going.

“I’m feeling good now. You have good and bad days. Up until now I’ve been chasing the miles a bit and today I had a really nice ride and didn’t think about the miles and went on some good roads even though it might be a bit slower.”

“It lets you enjoy it more. With the Tour Down Under starting it sure has given me some energy.”
Berkeley spends an average of 11 hours a day on the bike but even then, he says, the pace he must maintain is much higher than most people would imagine.

“I’ve been averaging 18mph a day so far (29km/h). If I get a bit tired I have a stop, toss in some food and then get back going agin. I’m not keeping track of the calories I’m burning every day. I’m just eating every time I’m hungry.”

“With this type of slow burn stuff I’m doing it’s better just to stop and eat properly rather than use all them nutrition products. I always have some stuff in my back pocket so that if I’m hungry I can just snack away in-between.”

So what’s the next challenge for Berkeley? He says he’d like to tick off an “Everesting” in Chang Mai in a few weeks while on his way back to England. Then he’ll return home to continue working on his small business called Cycle Doctor; a mobile repair centre which focuses on high-end bikes.

“It allows me the freedom to ride my bike and have the lifestyle I want and I’m not chasing the dollars”
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wowbagger on January 12, 2016, 11:29:37 am
Kurt and Tommy Godwin will probably have beaten 10000k in a month, and Steve as well, I would guess, as incidentals in their quest for the year record. I reckon Kurt's 15/11/2015-15/12/2015 would be well up there. He was over a Godwin for every day that month.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 12, 2016, 11:34:23 am
In another article about Bruce it mentions Tommy doing more than 13,000km in one month.

Like the UMCA, Guinness don't recognise any past records as they've got no idea whether they were done to the same level of proof required for the new attempts.

Aha: http://road.cc/content/news/141773-bruce-berkeley-rides-nearly-10000km-january-set-new-guinness-world-record

Quote
That’s actually some distance short of the 13,813 kilometres that Tommy Godwin rode in 1939 on his way to establishing a new record for distance ridden in a year, and the likelihood is that Berkeley’s mark will be beaten at some point this year by Steve Abraham and Kurt Searvogel.

Kurt didn't get near that and nor will Steve. It's 276 miles per day over a 31 day month.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 12, 2016, 11:36:35 am
Kurt and Tommy Godwin will probably have beaten 10000k in a month, and Steve as well, I would guess, as incidentals in their quest for the year record. I reckon Kurt's 15/11/2015-15/12/2015 would be well up there. He was over a Godwin for every day that month.

Kurt has since beaten his record that was just under 10000k ...Im not sure if Steve has done that yet?
I think Bruce was done under Guinness though so I guess he still has their record?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 12, 2016, 11:43:42 am
Bruce sounds like the usual 'Redemption' story. He's made some mistakes in his life, and he's come to terms with them through cycling.

It fits with the story arc of the leisure cyclist. Inspired by Cav, then Wiggo, but got dropped doing any sort of competitive cycling, and has now settled with Strava.

This year marks the 60th anniversary of the Guinness Book of Records, clearly anything before that is outside their ambit.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: danridesbikes on January 12, 2016, 11:55:31 am
Quote
I think Bruce was done under Guinness though so I guess he still has their record?
Quote

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month

https://www.strava.com/athletes/1170624#interval?interval=201530&interval_type=week&chart_type=miles&year_offset=0
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 12, 2016, 02:59:04 pm
Bruce would seem to have been called Dave back in the early 2000s.

He seemed to peak in the Surrey League 5 day in 2003. With a good showing on day 3.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/UK/2003/aug03/aug15-19evanssurrey5day033

Quote
The afternoon's stage of 84 miles around the South Downs saw a breakaway group of 13 riders go clear in the opening miles and build a lead that at one time exceeded 4 minutes. Most of the main teams were represented in the break with VC St Raphael, Energy Cycles, Evans RT and Parrot Print RT each having two riders but the greatest beneficiary looked to be Dave Berkeley (Sigma Sport RT) who looked like becoming the new race leader. However, in an exciting finale the main bunch reduced the group's lead to less than two minutes and at the finish Justin Hoy (Evans RT) produced an outstanding sprint to win the stage ahead of Timmy Barry (Ras Mumhan) and Berkeley.

He's a contemporary of Gethin Butler, who won that event in 2000. Bradley Wiggins rode that level of event at the time.

2003 was his big year, there are a few results from 2004, but nothing before. He's not listed as having a category, so may have held an NZ licence.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points?person_id=28236&d=4&year=2003
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: clarion on January 12, 2016, 03:15:08 pm
Is that the same guy, then?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Legs on January 12, 2016, 03:19:20 pm
Bruce is a nickname...
The 2003 Surrey League 5 Day was also the peak of my bro's cycling career - 5th on GC and King of the Mountains  :)  My best only result in the 5 Day (which, at the time, was the longest stage race in the UK), was surviving until the third day...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 12, 2016, 03:26:54 pm
He seems to have been a good rider at a regional level, his team never got any national points, as far as I can see.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 12, 2016, 04:30:09 pm
He seems to have been a good rider at a regional level, his team never got any national points, as far as I can see.

There's also record of him completing the Milk Ras in 2003, roughly mid-pack.

While he didn't set the racing world alight, there's no doubt he was a competent Elite rider. He also did 50,000km last year at an average of 30kmh. I'd guess (just visually) he's somewhere between  Kurt and Steve's ages, but much closer to Kurt in his approach, treating it as an athletic rather than an Audax-style challenge. He's no less likely than Steve or Kurt to steer clear of disaster, so who knows if he'll do it, but he's definitely a very credible challenger.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 12, 2016, 04:49:04 pm
He's a lot nearer to the ideal candidates than the others. Gethin Butler and Andy Wilkinson spring to mind. 'Bruce' was operating just below them in road races in the early 2000s.
His knee is the main question. It might be alright in the warmth of Oz.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 12, 2016, 05:00:50 pm
Kurt and Tommy Godwin will probably have beaten 10000k in a month, and Steve as well, I would guess, as incidentals in their quest for the year record. I reckon Kurt's 15/11/2015-15/12/2015 would be well up there. He was over a Godwin for every day that month.

15/11 to 15/12 for Kurt was 6954.8 miles (11192.7km).

Kurt's best 31 days was 6983.3 miles (11238.5km) at day 165, so that's 25/6 to 25/7 inclusive as June only has 30 days).
Kurt's best calendar month was July 2015 with 6883.1 miles (11077.3km)

Steve's Best 31 days:
Attempt 1: 6866.7 miles (11050.9km) from 10/6 to 10/7 (inclusive)
Attempt 2: 6638.7 miles (10684.0km) from 15/8 to 15/9 (inclusive)

Steve's Best calendar month (it's the best result from either attempt as it is common to both):
6469.6 miles (10411.8km) in October

Tommy's best 31 days was 8773 miles (14118.8km) from 21/6 to 21/7 (inclusive)
Tommy's best calendar month was July 1939 with 8583 miles (13813km)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Von Broad on January 12, 2016, 09:37:03 pm
I'd guess (just visually) he's somewhere between  Kurt and Steve's ages, but much closer to Kurt in his approach, treating it as an athletic rather than an Audax-style challenge.
Given the mind-boggling magnitude of the challenge, is there any other way to see it?  How does a rider get the miles otherwise? Unless you don't need to sleep for a year.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hummers on January 12, 2016, 09:58:17 pm
We've had pretty mild weather the last 2 months. Let's hope it stays like this for a couple more.

H
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 12, 2016, 10:07:36 pm
Apparently I've made an utter oaf of myself on Twitter by confusing some other chap with Steve. I posted this photo...

https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896 (https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hellymedic on January 12, 2016, 10:10:02 pm
I'm still not sure...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Tim Hall on January 12, 2016, 10:12:22 pm
Seeing as Steve did LEL accompanied by a bottle of JD, I reckon it is him. It does look like Olaf though. Will the real redfalo please stand up?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hellymedic on January 12, 2016, 10:14:35 pm
I think it's Steve now.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: PAC on January 12, 2016, 10:22:02 pm
Yes...that's Steve :thumbsup:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 12, 2016, 10:23:48 pm
Hurrah!  I win :)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ian H on January 12, 2016, 10:41:00 pm
Apparently I've made an utter oaf of myself on Twitter by confusing some other chap with Steve. I posted this photo...

https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896 (https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896)

Of course that's Steve.  I'd recognise that bike anywhere (and the bloke sitting on it, of course).
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 12, 2016, 10:43:54 pm
To be fair when a lady questions my judgement I always defer as, in my experience, they are usually right.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hellymedic on January 12, 2016, 10:47:37 pm
[OT] Nephew's friend has just posted pics on Facebook celebrating birthday tomorrow.
Nephew is looking pie-eyed and wearing a black Jack Daniels T-shirt.

Nephew has not lost his hair yet...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: madcow on January 12, 2016, 10:56:05 pm
To be fair when a lady questions my judgement I always defer as, in my experience, they are usually right.

Only implacably true if  the lady is either your wife , mother or  mother-in law. All others can and should be doubted.

(I thought it was Steve and I have only met him once.)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: HK on January 12, 2016, 11:16:08 pm
That was to burry the APB LEL monkey - Steve, the TSR and LEL
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hummers on January 12, 2016, 11:16:47 pm
Seeing as Steve did LEL accompanied by a bottle of JD, I reckon it is him. It does look like Olaf though. Will the real redfalo please stand up?

We cracked that open at the start.  :thumbsup:

H
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 12, 2016, 11:23:25 pm
Fairly conclusive evidence at the end of this film, although he'd changed into an AC/DC top by the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RsTbNodqwQ
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Jaded on January 13, 2016, 11:31:33 pm
Apparently I've made an utter oaf of myself on Twitter by confusing some other chap with Steve. I posted this photo...

https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896 (https://twitter.com/SirWobbly/status/687030659571920896)

Of course that's Steve.  I'd recognise that bike anywhere (and the bloke sitting on it, of course).

You can see him here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-35307332) too, in the first photo.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 14, 2016, 07:10:57 am
January 13th
- Track time 23h 26m moving time 18h 14m distance 225.7m average moving speed 12.4 mph
 :'(
Now is the time to give one of the most valiant and noble record attempts ever up.
Steve is a star, please let let him give himself a change of taking the record by recovering training to get faster and giving it another go.
If anyone can do it Steve can, but he is not maximising his opportunity.

BB

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 14, 2016, 07:15:59 am
Looks like Bruce took a break from the climbing, did laps of the bay and bashed in 220 miles at a smidge under 19mph  with 2,267 ft combing.....  From a very quick look at his figures he's already pushing on towards being 100 miles up on the asking.    I'm going to stick my neck out now and say I reckon  Bruce will beat the record with a daily average of 210.something
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 14, 2016, 07:23:39 am
I'm going to stick my neck out now and say I reckon  Bruce will beat the record with a daily average of 210.something

If he makes the full year, that sounds about right but he might get his average as high as 212.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: toontra on January 14, 2016, 11:42:31 am
I'm assuming his passport is up to date? Why the heck isn't he somewhere warm and flat?

Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.  If Steve were to use the same tactics (which I agree he probably should if at all possible) then I wonder what those people would have to say - not that I'd care!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 14, 2016, 11:54:34 am
Steve has already compromised his original "real" approach.  Transfers and a non-1 January start are two examples.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 14, 2016, 11:55:27 am
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.

Some people don't like to think. Such is life.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Veloman on January 14, 2016, 12:00:05 pm
Will all the details be next to Kurt's record?  Will his helper be mentioned or share the record?

Are pace-makers remembered?

Purity and "real way" are very much subjective.  If rules permit then so be it.  Do we discredit any TDF winners or the Team GB cyclists for not achieving what they did the "real way"?  And what is the "real way" anyway?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LMT on January 14, 2016, 12:05:14 pm
As you say the 'real way' is very subjective.

You go by the rules, and the strategy for the attempt and your approach go on from there.

As for the reason why he does not go abroad, imo the reason for this would be the logistics of it and the support structure that he has at his home. I don't know how much of the day to day things his support does and whether this would increase the burden on Steve, more than likely I'd have thought.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 14, 2016, 12:22:09 pm
Do we discredit any TDF winners or the Team GB cyclists for not achieving what they did the "real way"?  And what is the "real way" anyway?

Starting in the same place each day to where you stopped the previous day for a start, which they don't in the TdF.
it's not really the tour de france, more "a series of rides all most of which happen to be in france".
;)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wowbagger on January 14, 2016, 01:15:55 pm
And they aren't tourists! If they were there would be panniers, tea rooms, pubs and quite possibly, camping gear. :D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Veloman on January 14, 2016, 01:23:09 pm
And they aren't tourists! If they were there would be panniers, tea rooms, pubs and quite possibly, camping gear. :D

Is Steve carrying all that kit?  Did Kurt carry all that kit?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: jochta on January 14, 2016, 01:23:59 pm
And they aren't tourists! If they were there would be panniers, tea rooms, pubs and quite possibly, camping gear. :D

I thought Tour came from the French for circuit or lap.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: jochta on January 14, 2016, 01:35:30 pm
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.

Some people don't like to think. Such is life.

Perhaps Usain Bolt should wear old leather spikes, heavy flannel shorts and run on a cinder track if he wants his 100m world record to be "real".
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on January 14, 2016, 01:56:36 pm
I remember reading Michael Hutchinson's hilarious account of trying to build a bike that complied with the old UCI Hour record standards, because none of the components were manufactured to that spec any more.  Admittedly he is a skilled satirist and was trying to bend the rules as much as possible, but it does indicate a problem with trying to standardise a record. 

Even with that, hour record hunters are looking for the right track and atmospheric conditions.  As mentioned above the rules is the rules.  Use them wisely. 

I've always been impressed with Steve's fortitude, have no intention of coaching him (as I couldn't possibly ride 200 miles a day back to back in this weather) and will keep my thoughs on whether he will succeed or not private.

However, for those advising a 1 January 2017 relaunch there are some practical considerations, which I don't think have got much airtime: what does Steve do for the next 11 months and, if he does, his one year time trial will then have extended (effectively) to 3 years.  That's more than a chunk out of anyone's life.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Legs on January 14, 2016, 02:35:15 pm
Steve has already compromised his original "real" approach.  Transfers and a non-1 January start are two examples.
And his first (finished) attempt was mega-compromised by using a recumbent!  (Admittedly, he was quite heroically pedalling it with one leg, but that's a minor detail...)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Charlie Boy on January 14, 2016, 02:52:16 pm
The record is hard enough even with the most modern of equipment, which Kurt had and he *only* beat it by 1.3%

The Guinness Book of Records won't print what equipment was used. It will give a name and number. Period.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 14, 2016, 02:55:53 pm
However, for those advising a 1 January 2017 relaunch there are some practical considerations, which I don't think have got much airtime: what does Steve do for the next 11 months...

Wind down and get reacquainted with real life for a while. Train to be able to complete the required distances in a shorter elapsed time. Get a part time job to get some grounding in reality back (including regular human contact). Critically review the last 2 years (including the original prep time). Work out the finances. Review all of the decisions made. What worked? What didn't? What could be better/easier/faster/etc? Review equipment choices. Review the approach/plan. Review the numerous suggestions for things he could have done. Research alternatives, try them out. Review the diet during the wind down time, build/train time, and during the future attempt. Staff the new attempt. Come up with the new plan. Communicate it. Etc. Etc.

I don't think this needs all 11 months, so I don't see why he should abandon his current attempt any time soon (barring major/critical problems). He'll make that decision if he decides he's got to the point that it looks like too much. (Obviously I hope it continues to be within his grasp.)

And, as you say, whether he could face another full attempt starting 1st Jan 2017 is something that only Steve knows; whether it will be necessary is something no-one knows with any certainty at the moment.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 14, 2016, 03:05:03 pm
Just out of interest. Kurt was interviewed in this week's comic and gave the following insights:-

Q: Does Steve Abraham have a chance?

A: If he doesn't get out of England, no. If he'd had a different plan for the winter, he definitely have had a chance.

Q: Godwin, is the comparison fair?


..But if I'd had to do it in England I wouldn't have broken the record, there's no way in hell I'd be riding in the cold. I know that will make the Tommy fans happy.

Great humility from Kurt in my view and underpinning the fact that there are no givens when taking on the challenge over here.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Charlie Boy on January 14, 2016, 03:13:30 pm
Steve's schedule has been updated by the team: http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation (http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation) and their overall target reduced to 76,258.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 14, 2016, 03:17:45 pm
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.

Some people don't like to think. Such is life.

Perhaps Usain Bolt should wear old leather spikes, heavy flannel shorts and run on a cinder track if he wants his 100m world record to be "real".
Perhaps the people on the london marathon should get the tube every so often. ;)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 14, 2016, 03:21:35 pm
However, for those advising a 1 January 2017 relaunch there are some practical considerations, which I don't think have got much airtime: what does Steve do for the next 11 months
Go on celeb BB?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Martin on January 14, 2016, 03:22:00 pm
Didn't Tommy get car transport and pacing etc?

There's so much we don't know about his attempt it's hard to compare what's "real"
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 14, 2016, 03:24:19 pm
He'll make that decision if he decides he's got to the point that it looks like too much.
See I don't think that will happen because I don't think he devotes much time at all to evaluating what his remaining chances are. So he's got no idea how far "behind" or not he is. As far as he's concerned all he's going to do is just pedal as far as he thinks he can every day till august and if he gets it, he gets it, if he doesn't, he doesn't. He hasn't got time to sit down and do maths  and work out the numbers for required mpd increase like we have.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Legs on January 14, 2016, 03:30:50 pm
Clearly someone on the team has an eye to what needs to be done - hence the new and slightly more realistic schedule.  A little bit hamstrung, really, into choosing a figure greater than or equal to 76076.   There's only so much longer that you can keep absorbing past losses into re-evaluated schedules, mind.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Freya on January 14, 2016, 03:33:59 pm
Quote
Steve's schedule has been updated by the team: http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation and their overall target reduced to 76,258.

I'm not sure the Team necessarily know either. Some of those dates/distances don't quite match up with Strava. As far as I can see they have confused what happened over last weekend and stuck in a 200 mile ride which didn't happen. (should be a 188 in there somewhere.) According to Strava at any rate.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Morrisette on January 14, 2016, 03:37:23 pm
Well, I got halfway to work and turned around and went home again after twenty minutes riding into the freezing sleet. Currently at the computer working at home with a fleece blanket on. If I could go and do winter in the south of France or Spain or anywhere that is as you say, 'warm and flat', I'd be there, purity and dogged Britishness be damned!! I hate winter, and I always forget how much I hate it until it comes back again.

I really hope that Steve can do it, but I admit that it doesn't look very promising at the moment.

There is a cause for hope however: the Daily Express have predicted the coldest winter in 100 years so it's surely going to be one of the warmest ever?

We can hope so! I reckon ice might just be the last straw.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: jochta on January 14, 2016, 04:05:15 pm
Well, I got halfway to work and turned around and went home again after twenty minutes riding into the freezing sleet. Currently at the computer working at home with a fleece blanket on. If I could go and do winter in the south of France or Spain or anywhere that is as you say, 'warm and flat', I'd be there, purity and dogged Britishness be damned!! I hate winter, and I always forget how much I hate it until it comes back again.

I really hope that Steve can do it, but I admit that it doesn't look very promising at the moment.

There is a cause for hope however: the Daily Express have predicted the coldest winter in 100 years so it's surely going to be one of the warmest ever?

We can hope so! I reckon ice might just be the last straw.

This weekend is likely to see the coldest weather in the UK for a few years. This cold spell will last into next week, after that it's more uncertain. We haven't had an airfrost at my weather station in south Oxfordshire since November. I'm expecting that to change tonight.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 14, 2016, 04:12:39 pm
Just out of interest. Kurt was interviewed in this week's comic and gave the following insights:-

Q: Does Steve Abraham have a chance?

A: If he doesn't get out of England, no. If he'd had a different plan for the winter, he definitely have had a chance.

Q: Godwin, is the comparison fair?


..But if I'd had to do it in England I wouldn't have broken the record, there's no way in hell I'd be riding in the cold. I know that will make the Tommy fans happy.

Great humility from Kurt in my view and underpinning the fact that there are no givens when taking on the challenge over here.



Interesting, CF, I'll look forward to reading the whole thing when I get home.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 14, 2016, 05:07:57 pm
Just out of interest. Kurt was interviewed in this week's comic and gave the following insights:-

Q: Does Steve Abraham have a chance?

A: If he doesn't get out of England, no. If he'd had a different plan for the winter, he definitely have had a chance.

Q: Godwin, is the comparison fair?


..But if I'd had to do it in England I wouldn't have broken the record, there's no way in hell I'd be riding in the cold. I know that will make the Tommy fans happy.

Great humility from Kurt in my view and underpinning the fact that there are no givens when taking on the challenge over here.


+1 to that. And Kurt goes up a notch in my estimation for those answers.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 14, 2016, 05:09:12 pm
This weekend is likely to see the coldest weather in the UK for a few years.

Bloody well hope not. I have this month's DIY 200 inked in for Sunday :(
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: simonp on January 14, 2016, 05:11:53 pm
Velodrome session on Sunday.

Rowing on the Avon on Saturday, though.

 :hand:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: falcon on January 14, 2016, 07:10:50 pm
I thought this was a thread about the current record attempt??

Hats off to Kurt too!A Gentleman.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 14, 2016, 07:26:46 pm
Quote
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.  If Steve were to use the same tactics (which I agree he probably should if at all possible) then I wonder what those people would have to say - not that I'd care!
I dont read 99% of whats on FB, however; the above is far too binary a view, and your presumption is probably wrong.

I think Kurt's approach is perfectly fair under the rules, and was an awesome ride (I even bought him part of a cake over the internet to celebrate). I dont think he cheated at all.

But I can still admire Steve's approach more.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: toontra on January 14, 2016, 08:02:28 pm
Quote
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.  If Steve were to use the same tactics (which I agree he probably should if at all possible) then I wonder what those people would have to say - not that I'd care!
I dont read 99% of whats on FB, however; the above is far too binary a view, and your presumption is probably wrong.

So without reading 99% of it you feel able to say that is "far too binary a view" and my presumption is probably wrong.  Are you a clairvoyant?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Kim on January 14, 2016, 08:11:34 pm
Before Kurt began his attempt, I said it would be interesting to see how the 'RAAM' approach compared to the 'AUK' approach.  I don't think we've been disappointed in that respect, and within the UMCA rules it's fair to say that Kurt's method has left a lot more margin for error than Steve's.

On that basis, I'd rather see if Steve can beat Godwin (if not Kurt) using his current tactics, than take a more pragmatic approach to increase his chances of success.  As it stands, he's used up his margin for bad luck and is now betting against the British weather - succeed or fail, it's going to be heroic.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 14, 2016, 08:13:48 pm
Quote
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.  If Steve were to use the same tactics (which I agree he probably should if at all possible) then I wonder what those people would have to say - not that I'd care!
I dont read 99% of whats on FB, however; the above is far too binary a view, and your presumption is probably wrong.

So without reading 99% of it you feel able to say that is "far too binary a view" and my presumption is probably wrong.  Are you a clairvoyant?
I explained my reasoning - you'll find it in the bit after the first sentence.

Clairvoyance was not involved.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wowbagger on January 14, 2016, 08:57:39 pm
...it's going to be heroic.

It has been heroic for a very long time - probably since his weekend trip to see Hoppo in 6° of frost last January. Everything else has just been piling heroism on top of heroism.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wowbagger on January 14, 2016, 11:18:13 pm
And still he's on the road. 183 miles on the tracker and heading, I reckon, to Great Yarmouth. I hope he can find a damned good nutritious meal and a bed at this time of night. Sever weather warning all over Norfolk for frost and icy roads. Take care, Steve.

Edit: Damn! Wrong thread!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: jochta on January 14, 2016, 11:23:11 pm
And still he's on the road. 183 miles on the tracker and heading, I reckon, to Great Yarmouth. I hope he can find a damned good nutritious meal and a bed at this time of night. Sever weather warning all over Norfolk for frost and icy roads. Take care, Steve.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/observation/u135pr5sv

Raining, 3.4°C, 39mph wind gusting to 53mph currently...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 15, 2016, 06:29:16 am
And still he's on the road. 183 miles on the tracker and heading, I reckon, to Great Yarmouth. I hope he can find a damned good nutritious meal and a bed at this time of night. Sever weather warning all over Norfolk for frost and icy roads. Take care, Steve.

Edit: Damn! Wrong thread!
I think this is called a strategy failure. Cycle a long way from base when it is cold and prone to icing with strong and gusting winds. Does no one offer Steve route advice and forward check the weather? I think this must be a no. I know it is easy after the event but even a loop close to home on well known roads would have been better over the next few days. That way you eliminate at least one risk.
BB

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 15, 2016, 08:08:22 am
I don't see what difference it makes, myself. Whether you cycle loops or go long, the risk of hitting ice is the same and if you are caught out in snow then Steve can hunker down in a B&B or call in a lift. But I might be misunderstanding the risk being bandied around.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wowbagger on January 15, 2016, 09:19:08 am
Calling for a volunteer driver in heavy snow brings with it its own problems.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ningishzidda on January 15, 2016, 09:28:54 am
Well, I got halfway to work and turned around and went home again after twenty minutes riding into the freezing sleet. Currently at the computer working at home with a fleece blanket on. If I could go and do winter in the south of France or Spain or anywhere that is as you say, 'warm and flat', I'd be there, purity and dogged Britishness be damned!! I hate winter, and I always forget how much I hate it until it comes back again.

I really hope that Steve can do it, but I admit that it doesn't look very promising at the moment.

There is a cause for hope however: the Daily Express have predicted the coldest winter in 100 years so it's surely going to be one of the warmest ever?

We can hope so! I reckon ice might just be the last straw.

This weekend is likely to see the coldest weather in the UK for a few years. This cold spell will last into next week, after that it's more uncertain. We haven't had an airfrost at my weather station in south Oxfordshire since November. I'm expecting that to change tonight.

This year's weather will be about 'normal' or a tad warmer.
No significant volcanos have gone off lately, so we're not going to get 1981/2 lows; or 1883 or 1815 freezes either.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 15, 2016, 10:08:34 am
I'm assuming his passport is up to date? Why the heck isn't he somewhere warm and flat?

Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.  If Steve were to use the same tactics (which I agree he probably should if at all possible) then I wonder what those people would have to say - not that I'd care!

The way the 'ideology' of Steve's riding methods has grown up is interesting. It doesn't derive from anything that I've ever heard from Steve. Here's an uncut 11 minute conversation with Steve from shortly after PBP, when he was on his way to Dieppe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwUqJ8sdQc8

That idea of what's 'real' has evolved in the presence of material such as that. So I'm sceptical about views of Tommy Godwin's year. Tommy never spoke about what he did, and there seems to be no extant cine footage of him. If myths can evolve around Steve, in the  face of real information, what does it say about Tommy?

Comments about Kurt are also interesting. The idea that he is at fault for seeking suitable conditions to ride in is just perverse.

I'm not sure what effect the myths have on Steve's chances, it might be that the myths have fund-raising appeal. More money might help, but it would be a quantum leap to a full-time team manager, with a fully-equipped mobile home/workshop/office, which is what has been proven to work.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 15, 2016, 12:47:42 pm
The way the 'ideology' of Steve's riding methods has grown up is interesting. It doesn't derive from anything that I've ever heard from Steve. Here's an uncut 11 minute conversation with Steve from shortly after PBP, when he was on his way to Dieppe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwUqJ8sdQc8

That idea of what's 'real' has evolved in the presence of material such as that. So I'm sceptical about views of Tommy Godwin's year. Tommy never spoke about what he did, and there seems to be no extant cine footage of him. If myths can evolve around Steve, in the  face of real information, what does it say about Tommy?

Comments about Kurt are also interesting. The idea that he is at fault for seeking suitable conditions to ride in is just perverse.

I'm not sure what effect the myths have on Steve's chances, it might be that the myths have fund-raising appeal. More money might help, but it would be a quantum leap to a full-time team manager, with a fully-equipped mobile home/workshop/office, which is what has been proven to work.

I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble". To me, cycling needs to be either useful (transport), competitive (racing, effectively as possible, like Kurt), or enjoyable (leisure). Long distance cycling that doesn't fulfill one of those 3 would still seem to be worthwhile purely for the sake of it to some people as it is deemed 'noble'. I worry that  Steve might be falling into this category.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 15, 2016, 03:43:30 pm

I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".


Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?

You can fit what Steve is doing into your "competitive" category: it is a race against time and it is a race against his own previous achievements, those of Tommy Godwin, and Kurt's recent year in the saddle. To achieve that, he will need to be "as effective as possible". That will take a different form to Kurt's method, of course.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Peter on January 15, 2016, 03:57:46 pm

I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".


Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?



Because it has nothing to do with "noble" by the usual definitions.  Rescuing someone from a fire is noble, riding a bike isn't.  That doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with it, however unusual it might be.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 15, 2016, 04:00:33 pm
People tick all manner of boxes inside their heads while they're doing things. It's when they expect others to be ticking those same boxes that it gets a bit weird.

I'd see Steve's record attempt as a management problem. It was originally envisaged that support would be 'crowd-sourced' and a timetable drawn up of where he would be and when. That seemed to prove unwieldy, and was abandoned after the accident.

The optimum solution would seem to be the Kurt approach, but Steve cycles for longer, so you'd need two Alicias, and it would be on a formal, rather than intimate, basis. That would mean weekend cover, and once you start moving to a warmer place, it becomes unworkable.

 
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ian H on January 15, 2016, 04:02:51 pm


I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble". To me, cycling needs to be either useful (transport), competitive (racing, effectively as possible, like Kurt), or enjoyable (leisure). Long distance cycling that doesn't fulfill one of those 3 would still seem to be worthwhile purely for the sake of it to some people as it is deemed 'noble'. I worry that  Steve might be falling into this category.

Lots of assumptions there, including the idea that Steve isn't enjoying himself.  I'll bet you that, when he finishes this, he'll relax by going for a bike ride.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 15, 2016, 04:07:20 pm


Lots of assumptions there, including the idea that Steve isn't enjoying himself.  I'll bet you that, when he finishes this, he'll relax by going for a bike ride.

I'd agree that that is an assumption... but if it's incorrect, then, certainly in the recent weather, I bet it's the sort of cycling you enjoy more having done it retrospectively than while you're actually doing it...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 15, 2016, 04:09:05 pm

I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".


Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?

You can fit what Steve is doing into your "competitive" category: it is a race against time and it is a race against his own previous achievements, those of Tommy Godwin, and Kurt's recent year in the saddle. To achieve that, he will need to be "as effective as possible". That will take a different form to Kurt's method, of course.

Well I don't worry whether other people want to think that I suppose. But I don't see how long distance cycling , or even any cycling, is a good thing in and of itself - if it isn't enjoyable, and it isn't doing what it set out to achieve. Steve isn't doing it as effectively as possible otherwise he would be doing it in america. He could do it in an audax way on a raleigh, in america.

By 'noble' I mean they assume that because it's cycling, it *must* be good, even though it's neither enjoyable, getting from A to B, or achieving anything.
Do they think cycling gets you fit? Apart from intense, short hill reps/sprints, it doesn't. Audax cycling certainly doesn't get you fit.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 15, 2016, 04:12:10 pm
People tick all manner of boxes inside their heads while they're doing things. It's when they expect others to be ticking those same boxes that it gets a bit weird.

I'd see Steve's record attempt as a management problem. It was originally envisaged that support would be 'crowd-sourced' and a timetable drawn up of where he would be and when. That seemed to prove unwieldy, and was abandoned after the accident.

The optimum solution would seem to be the Kurt approach, but Steve cycles for longer, so you'd need two Alicias, and it would be on a formal, rather than intimate, basis. That would mean weekend cover, and once you start moving to a warmer place, it becomes unworkable.

I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ashaman42 on January 15, 2016, 04:25:13 pm
Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.

It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Chris S on January 15, 2016, 04:33:11 pm


I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble". To me, cycling needs to be either useful (transport), competitive (racing, effectively as possible, like Kurt), or enjoyable (leisure). Long distance cycling that doesn't fulfill one of those 3 would still seem to be worthwhile purely for the sake of it to some people as it is deemed 'noble'. I worry that  Steve might be falling into this category.

Lots of assumptions there, including the idea that Steve isn't enjoying himself.  I'll bet you that, when he finishes this, he'll relax by going for a bike ride.

Indeed. His words just last night: "When I'm done with this, I'd like to do some simple touring."
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 15, 2016, 04:38:30 pm
Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.

It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.

it might get you "good at audax cycling".
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: lahoski on January 15, 2016, 04:39:46 pm
Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.

It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.

it might get you "good at audax cycling".
What's your definition of 'fit'?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Si S on January 15, 2016, 04:45:52 pm
Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.

It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.

it might get you "good at audax cycling".
What's your definition of 'fit'?

fit for nothing?

In my case anyway
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: PAC on January 15, 2016, 04:48:14 pm
Quote from: Ben T link=topic=95268.msg1974165#msg1974165 date=1452862062
[/quote

Do they think cycling gets you fit? Apart from intense, short hill reps/sprints, it doesn't. Audax cycling certainly doesn't get you fit.

Quote of the weeeeeeek ;D.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 15, 2016, 04:49:21 pm
I always found Audax to be excellent training. If you do turns on the flat, and you're heavy enough to find climbing difficult, what's a constant output for the average person becomes intervals, if you weigh more than 14 stone.
I did my best 10s 10 days after 600s.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 15, 2016, 05:14:14 pm
It didn't do much for my performance in short races but keeping up in the longer ones was much less like hard work.  Anecdatally, looking over Mr Setter's shoulder during two hours of pounding round Castle Combe had me revving about 20 bpm less than him, though the bugger still outsprant me in the final furlong, it being slightly uphill if you use the circuit widdershins like we did that year.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: simonp on January 15, 2016, 05:33:06 pm
Base training is traditionally done at a moderate intensity. Spring last year the vast majority of my training was basically riding Audax. My functional threshold increased by 30W and my fat burning percentage doubled.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: red marley on January 15, 2016, 05:38:50 pm
I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.

I can hear CitizenFish gnashing his teeth from here. This appears to be one of those zombie factoids that cannot be killed, however many times it is refuted. My understanding is that there is no evidence or even a hint of evidence that Tommy Godwin had a team that rode with him. He had, for a while, road support in terms of encouragement, but not active drafting nor others riding with him to pace him. Much closer to Alicia in the van shouting at Kurt to get back on the bike when he wanted to have longer rest breaks than, say Bruce riding with Astana, Katusha or Sky or some imagined pace line of 1930s pros.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: ElyDave on January 15, 2016, 05:39:10 pm
Base training is traditionally done at a moderate intensity. Spring last year the vast majority of my training was basically riding Audax. My functional threshold increased by 30W and my fat burning percentage doubled.

was that training at constant HR or constant speed?

The former is of course a progressive method where as you get fitter you go faster.  I've done it for years for both running and cycling, but it takes discipline.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 15, 2016, 05:56:02 pm
I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.

I can hear CitizenFish gnashing his teeth from here. This appears to be one of those zombie factoids that cannot be killed, however many times it is refuted. My understanding is that there is no evidence or even a hint of evidence that Tommy Godwin had a team that rode with him. He had, for a while, road support in terms of encouragement, but not active drafting nor others riding with him to pace him. Much closer to Alicia in the van shouting at Kurt to get back on the bike when he wanted to have longer rest breaks than, say Bruce riding with Astana, Katusha or Sky or some imagined pace line of 1930s pros.

He can gnash his teeth all he likes.

Quote
The final and most enduring (unbeaten to date) record set on an RRA was that by 27-year-old Tommy Godwin who established the all-time total of 75,065 miles ridden in a single year. Setting out on a Ley TG Special (with a Reynolds 531 frame) bicycle with a four-speed Cyclo derailleur on 1 January 1939, the demands of the ride proved too much for Ley, a small independent cycle company and on 27 May Raleigh-Sturmey Archer assumed sponsorship with Godwin being provided with a new 21" RRA in special ivory livery fitted with AF hub, 27" sprint rims and tyres, Brooks B17 Flyer saddle and, at times, with the new GH8 Dynohub. He also rode a conventionally black-painted RRA at times.

In addition to running with the AF hub, Godwin also used the new medium-ratio four-speed FM hub starting in October. It was claimed that his average daily mileage increased by 33½ per cent from 156 to 200 using the four-speed hubs. It should be noted that Godwin used an AF hub from March-May on his Ley as well and went from a 155.7-mile average in February to 178.6 in March with the new gear.

Godwin's RRA was probably heavier than his Reynolds 531 Ley but it was the support that Raleigh provided in terms of a manager (Charlie Davey), pacers and limitless technical and parts assistance that made the difference. Raleigh's promotional assets thrust Godwin's efforts into the media spotlight as they hitherto had not been. He was the best advertisement Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer could wish for and posters, postcards and dealer displays flooded the cycle world. As late as 1955, Raleigh touted that a "prototype of the Super Lenton" (sic) was used in the effort.

http://www.ipernity.com/blog/286349/633421
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: simonp on January 15, 2016, 05:58:01 pm
Base training is traditionally done at a moderate intensity. Spring last year the vast majority of my training was basically riding Audax. My functional threshold increased by 30W and my fat burning percentage doubled.

was that training at constant HR or constant speed?

The former is of course a progressive method where as you get fitter you go faster.  I've done it for years for both running and cycling, but it takes discipline.

Constant HR (within reason). I was trying to keep my HR below 140. I was riding fixed, and sometimes on hilly events it would be in the 180s. I was not stopping for long at controls, generally not eating their food, and instead eating home made rice cakes (as per the recipe used by Team Sky) while riding. This approach kept my rolling average down, around 22kph, rather than the slightly higher average I'd usually aim for. As I tended to spend less time stopped, my time around events was roughly similar to my previous approach which was to ride harder and require more feeding.

I got hold of an electronic trainer in early summer and did an 8-week build programme from then until just before PBP, so adding in a lot of higher intensity work, while still riding longer events. My FTP only increased by an additional 10W over and above what I'd achieved by riding Audax. However, my fat burning at moderate intensity actually got a bit worse, though it was still better than it had been in February.

This winter as I have the trainer, I'm trying something different and using a mixture of sweet-spot and base-level work. It will be building on last year's work. However, I don't think I'm markedly fitter than I was in June having just done virtually nothing but Audax riding.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 15, 2016, 06:12:33 pm
I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.

I can hear CitizenFish gnashing his teeth from here. This appears to be one of those zombie factoids that cannot be killed, however many times it is refuted. My understanding is that there is no evidence or even a hint of evidence that Tommy Godwin had a team that rode with him. He had, for a while, road support in terms of encouragement, but not active drafting nor others riding with him to pace him. Much closer to Alicia in the van shouting at Kurt to get back on the bike when he wanted to have longer rest breaks than, say Bruce riding with Astana, Katusha or Sky or some imagined pace line of 1930s pros.

He can gnash his teeth all he likes.

Quote
The final and most enduring (unbeaten to date) record set on an RRA was that by 27-year-old Tommy Godwin who established the all-time total of 75,065 miles ridden in a single year. Setting out on a Ley TG Special (with a Reynolds 531 frame) bicycle with a four-speed Cyclo derailleur on 1 January 1939, the demands of the ride proved too much for Ley, a small independent cycle company and on 27 May Raleigh-Sturmey Archer assumed sponsorship with Godwin being provided with a new 21" RRA in special ivory livery fitted with AF hub, 27" sprint rims and tyres, Brooks B17 Flyer saddle and, at times, with the new GH8 Dynohub. He also rode a conventionally black-painted RRA at times.

In addition to running with the AF hub, Godwin also used the new medium-ratio four-speed FM hub starting in October. It was claimed that his average daily mileage increased by 33½ per cent from 156 to 200 using the four-speed hubs. It should be noted that Godwin used an AF hub from March-May on his Ley as well and went from a 155.7-mile average in February to 178.6 in March with the new gear.

Godwin's RRA was probably heavier than his Reynolds 531 Ley but it was the support that Raleigh provided in terms of a manager (Charlie Davey), pacers and limitless technical and parts assistance that made the difference. Raleigh's promotional assets thrust Godwin's efforts into the media spotlight as they hitherto had not been. He was the best advertisement Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer could wish for and posters, postcards and dealer displays flooded the cycle world. As late as 1955, Raleigh touted that a "prototype of the Super Lenton" (sic) was used in the effort.

http://www.ipernity.com/blog/286349/633421

That just looks like a repetition of the zombie factoid, not a contemporary report or even a quote.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 15, 2016, 06:16:26 pm
There are contemporary reports of the agreement with the rival team to withdraw pacing, in view of the expense. The article predates any record attempt, with its attendant propoganda.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 15, 2016, 06:25:21 pm

I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".


Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?

You can fit what Steve is doing into your "competitive" category: it is a race against time and it is a race against his own previous achievements, those of Tommy Godwin, and Kurt's recent year in the saddle. To achieve that, he will need to be "as effective as possible". That will take a different form to Kurt's method, of course.

Well I don't worry whether other people want to think that I suppose. But I don't see how long distance cycling , or even any cycling, is a good thing in and of itself - if it isn't enjoyable, and it isn't doing what it set out to achieve. Steve isn't doing it as effectively as possible otherwise he would be doing it in america. He could do it in an audax way on a raleigh, in america.

By 'noble' I mean they assume that because it's cycling, it *must* be good, even though it's neither enjoyable, getting from A to B, or achieving anything.
Do they think cycling gets you fit? Apart from intense, short hill reps/sprints, it doesn't. Audax cycling certainly doesn't get you fit.
[my bold]
Sergeant Plcuk seems to have it right.

"Steve isn't doing it as effectively as possible "
Neither did Kurt.

He rode in America cos he lived there!

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 15, 2016, 06:27:53 pm
Kurt did it effectively enough to succeed.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 15, 2016, 06:34:10 pm
I dont see "effectively enough" anywhere in the discussion so far.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LMT on January 15, 2016, 06:55:59 pm
Currently at 114 miles, will this see vehicle transfers knocked on the head or is there a better way?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 15, 2016, 06:57:30 pm
I give up Jo. Let the googlers convince themselves Godwin was accompanied by a team of chariots with a special vacuum creating machine in front of him. If that is what they believe pacing means......

There were not reports of withdrawing pacing due to expense. It was entirely due to the arms race of miles that ensued between Bennett and Godwin. But they will know that having read through the archives and cross referencing quotes/facts won't they?

But, for once and for all, the pacers were:-

Rene Menzies, on a motorbike shouting at Bennett to go faster and do more miles.
Charley Davey in a car shouting at Godwin to go faster and do more miles.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 15, 2016, 07:07:08 pm
I dont see "effectively enough" anywhere in the discussion so far.

The facts speak for themselves.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LMT on January 15, 2016, 07:07:38 pm
I give up Jo. Let the googlers convince themselves Godwin was accompanied by a team of chariots with a special vacuum creating machine in front of him. If that is what they believe pacing means......

There were not reports of withdrawing pacing due to expense. It was entirely due to the arms race of miles that ensued between Bennett and Godwin. But they will know that having read through the archives and cross referencing quotes/facts won't they?

But, for once and for all, the pacers were:-

Rene Menzies, on a motorbike shouting at Bennett to go faster and do more miles.
Charley Davey in a car shouting at Godwin to go faster and do more miles.

Wow, I must confess to being one of the those who thought that Godwin drafted. If this is not the case (of which I admit I'm ignorant of) then those miles and days that he done during the summer were and are truly mind boggling.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 15, 2016, 07:12:21 pm
Some think that Tommy's ride invalidates Kurt's ride by reason of its purity. I think that Kurt's ride validates Tommy's ride, which in the absence of any explanation looks very suspect. If there were no pacers I find it dubious that there is a sudden 20% jump. Raleigh must have thought so, or they wouldn't have come up with their ludicrous assertion that a four-speed gear makes you go a third further than a three-speed one.

(http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/images/photos/pic-659.jpg)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 15, 2016, 07:16:07 pm
I have never seen an advert that lied before  8)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 15, 2016, 07:16:51 pm
There were pacers. But these pacers were two men doing everything to make sure their guys rode more miles for more hours. This is different from a team of riders that the two men drafted behind. This is what people fail to understand.

Godwin's pacing is totally explainable. You like Google, look up Charlie Davey. The man was an animal on the bike and an unbelievable task master off it. He goaded Godwin on following him around in a car, sorting his food and lodgings and fixing his bikes.  He would drive him to exhaustion whilst keeping an eye on his rival. THAT is pacing. And it was that which stopped after mutual agreement.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LMT on January 15, 2016, 07:20:29 pm
Cool, that rings a bell when reading about the modern day cyclists who do RAAM. That cyclists do exactly this, cycle. Whilst the team around them sorts everything else out and motivates them to ride harder and harder.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Canardly on January 15, 2016, 07:21:18 pm
Ah good old 'commercial puff'.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Legs on January 15, 2016, 07:48:24 pm
The most extraordinary thing about Godwin's performance is really that, if he was capable of the kind of effort that gave him 300m+ days for a week at a time in the summer, he did such short mileage in the winter months.  Surely in a good year he'd have been capable of 90k+ (and if he'd used that Sturmey Archer all year, maybe a few k more? ::-))
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 15, 2016, 07:53:09 pm
Wow, I must confess to being one of the those who thought that Godwin was drafted.

He was, but not until 1940 when he joined the RAF

(http://legslarry.org.uk/BikeStull/coat_48.png)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 15, 2016, 08:17:08 pm

I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".


Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?



Because it has nothing to do with "noble" by the usual definitions.  Rescuing someone from a fire is noble, riding a bike isn't.  That doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with it, however unusual it might be.

The usual definitions of noble include many that I think apply to what Steve is doing. When BenT used the term earlier I thought of it in terms of excellence, extremes of endurance, rather in a moral way.

I digress.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 15, 2016, 08:25:37 pm
Don Quixote was a noble night.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hellymedic on January 15, 2016, 08:44:36 pm
I have never seen an advert that lied before  8)

Especially not before the Trades Descriptions Act...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Arry-R on January 15, 2016, 08:52:15 pm
I have never seen an advert that lied before  8)

Especially not before the Trades Descriptions Act...




 ;D  ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Whitedown Man on January 15, 2016, 08:52:48 pm
Don Quixote was a noble night.

Can't work out whether that's a typo or a joke so subtle it's going over my head  ;)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Peter on January 15, 2016, 09:06:11 pm

I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".


Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?



Because it has nothing to do with "noble" by the usual definitions.  Rescuing someone from a fire is noble, riding a bike isn't.  That doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with it, however unusual it might be.

The usual definitions of noble include many that I think apply to what Steve is doing. When BenT used the term earlier I thought of it in terms of excellence, extremes of endurance, rather in a moral way.

I digress.

I suppose it depends on which dickers you are looking at.  No matter, what Steve is doing is certainly remarkable.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 15, 2016, 10:11:54 pm
Lots of assumptions there, including the idea that Steve isn't enjoying himself.  I'll bet you that, when he finishes this, he'll relax by going for a bike ride.

"When he finishes this"?

I have no idea what "this" is. Every day that passes "this" is less and less like a realistic attempt at HAMR/Tommy Godwin's/Tarzan's record.

What is Steve trying to achieve?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: zigzag on January 15, 2016, 10:38:18 pm
"When he finishes this"?

I have no idea what "this" is. Every day that passes "this" is less and less like a realistic attempt at HAMR/Tommy Godwin's/Tarzan's record.

What is Steve trying to achieve?

he is riding the highest number of miles he can using his chosen strategy. this will help contributing towards other goals, if he has them, e.g. riding 1,000,000 miles in his lifetime. it would be interesting to hear from Steve "my thoughts on my record attempts"...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: toontra on January 15, 2016, 10:43:33 pm
it would be interesting to hear from Steve "my thoughts on my record attempts"...

I would hope that after the review at the end of January (promised by the team) any ongoing goals would be made public so everyone, particularly the donors, know precisely what's being attempted.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: yanto on January 15, 2016, 10:44:56 pm
"When he finishes this"?

I have no idea what "this" is. Every day that passes "this" is less and less like a realistic attempt at HAMR/Tommy Godwin's/Tarzan's record.

What is Steve trying to achieve?

he is riding the highest number of miles he can using his chosen strategy. this will help contributing towards other goals, if he has them, e.g. riding 1,000,000 miles in his lifetime. it would be interesting to hear from Steve "my thoughts on my record attempts"...

I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?

It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him.  So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 15, 2016, 10:47:24 pm
There were pacers. But these pacers were two men doing everything to make sure their guys rode more miles for more hours. This is different from a team of riders that the two men drafted behind. This is what people fail to understand.

Godwin's pacing is totally explainable. You like Google, look up Charlie Davey. The man was an animal on the bike and an unbelievable task master off it. He goaded Godwin on following him around in a car, sorting his food and lodgings and fixing his bikes.  He would drive him to exhaustion whilst keeping an eye on his rival. THAT is pacing. And it was that which stopped after mutual agreement.

I can commend the book, 'The 24 Hour Story', by John Taylor. Chapter 1, on the 'paced' era of the 24 Hours up to about 1900 is interesting. The history of Paris Brest Paris, and other long distance continental events is also instructive, especially the inaugural Bordeaux-Paris.

Quote
Everything had been prepared to receive the riders properly [recevoir dignement]: full meals, baths, hot showers, nothing was forgotten, and there were good beds to welcome our heroes, because there was no doubt among the excellent people of Angoulème that it was impossible to ride 127km on a bicycle without immediately needing several hours' rest. To the great stupefaction of the spectators, not one of the riders took advantage of what had been provided. The eventual winner, G.P. Mills, stopped for several moments at best. He had a plan: he let Holbein eat peacefully at the control because he knew that a real champion, Lewis Stroud, was waiting to show him the way out of town and that, with him as a precious, fast and durable pacer he could build up the lead he needed to win the race.[4]
Mills reached Tours after 215 miles and more than 12 hours on the road. He rested for five minutes, ate raw meat "and a specially prepared stimulant",[3] and set off an hour ahead of the other British riders. "By now," said Head, "the Frenchmen were hopelessly out of the running."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux–Paris

The term 'pacer' in long distance cycling has a specific meaning of someone not riding the whole route, and upping the pace, and would have been well understood as meaning that in the 1930s.

That notion still lives on in Audax UK, where taking pace off someone not in the event will invalidate the ride, in theory at least. As the year record was open to all 'Cycling' readers, it was inconceivable that they couldn't count club runs, there was no reason you could not be paced. It was not an unpaced one year time trial.

That perception of the nature of the record is based on a knowledge of the nature of long-distance cycling in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, which was within living memory in 1939. Pacing is not problematic in the year record, it's expected.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 15, 2016, 10:55:52 pm
I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?

It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him.  So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
Its not clear from your post,  so may I ask;
are you a supporter? With how much cash?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Von Broad on January 15, 2016, 11:05:44 pm
"When he finishes this"?

I have no idea what "this" is. Every day that passes "this" is less and less like a realistic attempt at HAMR/Tommy Godwin's/Tarzan's record.

What is Steve trying to achieve?

he is riding the highest number of miles he can using his chosen strategy. this will help contributing towards other goals, if he has them, e.g. riding 1,000,000 miles in his lifetime. it would be interesting to hear from Steve "my thoughts on my record attempts"...

I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?

It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him.  So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?

"8 more months of fun" I think you'll find is how he described his endeavours at the beginning of the year.
I'm sure his choice of words was not intentionally ambiguous....but his choice of words was kind of interesting nevertheless.

For me....I'd never be out there cycling in this weather, not even for 20 miles, never mind 200, so when a person does the very opposite of what you'd never ever do in your wildest dreams their endeavours look heroic. Maybe they are, maybe not....but for Steve....it's enjoyable. It's how he enjoys life.

Initially I was, but I'm not a financial supporter any more, so actually, I really don't care what he does [other than being concerned about how tired he might get out there....and for that I do have genuine concerns - but Steve would probably laugh at all that], but I do wonder what his support team in MK are starting to think. They're the nerve centre of it all. Maybe their lives are so barren and empty that they're glad to give their precious time day in day out ad infinitum just to be doing something useful. But somehow......I very much doubt that's the case. If they're happy, and everybody else is happy to support, either hands on or with hard earned cash, then so bit it, everybody's happy.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: yanto on January 15, 2016, 11:08:56 pm
I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?

It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him.  So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
Its not clear from your post,  so may I ask;
are you a supporter? With how much cash?

 ::-)

You're hilarious.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 15, 2016, 11:11:07 pm
gosh, isnt this new thread going well? :)

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: toontra on January 15, 2016, 11:12:32 pm
I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?

It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him.  So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
Its not clear from your post,  so may I ask;
are you a supporter? With how much cash?

And I would say that's none of your damn business. 

Please try and desist from shit-stirring at every possible opportunity.  You were already instrumental in closing the last thread.  If you cant tolerate views other than your own being expressed  then keep away.  But you can't can you - like a dog returning to it's own vomit, day after day.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Polar Bear on January 15, 2016, 11:19:01 pm
"this", as people keep alluding to is Steve's second attempt at breaking Tommy Godwin's annual 365 consecutive days mileage record.   He made it clear enough in August that this was his aim and has not stated at any point that this aim has changes afaik.

Why so much obfuscation on the matter is beyond me.    ???

</edit>

Minor correction applied. 
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 16, 2016, 02:44:27 am
I am quite clear in my own mind that Steve is still aiming for the HAM'R, and the latest schedule confirms that. Whether that schedule is achievable is another matter, however Idai clearly said in the interview which we all enjoyed that a review would be held at the end of this (and any subsequent) month and an assessment made of whether or not the target was achievable. So I'm quite happy, so long as Steve remains healthy and motivated, to wait until then before I state my views on it again - if, indeed, I feel the need. I may well not!

I do believe that if Steve makes any acknowledgement that the records (HAM'R and 100k) are out of reach, but decides to carry on riding anyway to try and exceed his 2015 total, that it would be wrong to continue to solicit donations to support that, but of course it's every individual's choice as to whether they donate or not.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: yanto on January 16, 2016, 06:58:40 am
gosh, isnt this new thread going well? :)

It and other threads go so much better with free speech, lack of insinuation as to worthyness in comment and constructive criticism.

Why don't you discuss this current record attempt as the thread title says, stop doing the old "passive aggressive" bollocks, eh? Now there's a good chap!

I will repeat, what is he doing, it is to beat the 76076 miles, is as mentioned ^^^^^^^ to beat Tommy's consecutive 365 day record?  I need educating here as my memory fails me with old age, what is that record?

Also for the record I fully support Steve, I have followed his ups and downs from day 1, read every thread on here about it, followed faceache, been stunned by Jo's graphics and been amazed by a lot of mantra and pig headed view points on here from people who appear to be unable to accept what is happening to Steve re: "the record attempt".

I don't know Steve, I don't know;

What's driving him,
What his aims are,
Whether he's enjoying this,
Whether he thinks this is a rather nice long bike ride paid for by others?

If i met him I would have so many questions.

What I do know is:

I am in awe of what he has achieved.

I'm also afraid that what he is doing this now is an attempt to "save face", which from my view point he doesn't have to.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 16, 2016, 07:04:22 am
I agree with Wobbly, what is THIS he's doing?

It certainly can't be the HAMR, going over 76076 miles in the time left is impossible for him.  So, all the people who have, and continue to support in kind and with their hard cash, what are they supporting?
Its not clear from your post,  so may I ask;
are you a supporter? With how much cash?

That comment surprised even me and is not worthy of a reply.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 16, 2016, 07:52:31 am
gosh, isnt this new thread going well? :)

It and other threads go so much better with free speech, lack of insinuation as to worthyness in comment and constructive criticism.

Why don't you discuss this current record attempt as the thread title says, stop doing the old "passive aggressive" bollocks, eh? Now there's a good chap!

I will repeat, what is he doing, it is to beat the 76076 miles, is as mentioned ^^^^^^^ to beat Tommy's consecutive 365 day record?  I need educating here as my memory fails me with old age, what is that record?

Also for the record I fully support Steve, I have followed his ups and downs from day 1, read every thread on here about it, followed faceache, been stunned by Jo's graphics and been amazed by a lot of mantra and pig headed view points on here from people who appear to be unable to accept what is happening to Steve re: "the record attempt".

I don't know Steve, I don't know;

What's driving him,
What his aims are,
Whether he's enjoying this,
Whether he thinks this is a rather nice long bike ride paid for by others?


If i met him I would have so many questions.

What I do know is:

I am in awe of what he has achieved.

I'm also afraid that what he is doing this now is an attempt to "save face", which from my view point he doesn't have to.

Well I do know Steve, and I did contribute.  I think that does give me more right to comment on what Steve does with the funds that somebody who hasn't contributed. I also found that your comment to which mattc objected could be construed as containing a rather unpleasant insinuation about Steve. I don't know you, and I don't know whether that was what you intended.

For you, perhaps, this thread is the opportunity to sound off about something. But there is somebody out there at this very moment trudging on in sub-zero temperatures whilst you give the world the benefit of your opinion from the comfort of your home. It is highly likely that that person reads (or read) these pages so it behoves you, as somebody who doesn't know Steve and hasnt put anything into this, to think very carefully about how you word your comments.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 16, 2016, 07:59:59 am
gosh, isnt this new thread going well? :)

It and other threads go so much better with free speech, lack of insinuation as to worthyness in comment and constructive criticism.

Why don't you discuss this current record attempt as the thread title says, stop doing the old "passive aggressive" bollocks, eh? Now there's a good chap!

I will repeat, what is he doing, it is to beat the 76076 miles, is as mentioned ^^^^^^^ to beat Tommy's consecutive 365 day record?  I need educating here as my memory fails me with old age, what is that record?

Also for the record I fully support Steve, I have followed his ups and downs from day 1, read every thread on here about it, followed faceache, been stunned by Jo's graphics and been amazed by a lot of mantra and pig headed view points on here from people who appear to be unable to accept what is happening to Steve re: "the record attempt".

I don't know Steve, I don't know;

What's driving him,
What his aims are,
Whether he's enjoying this,
Whether he thinks this is a rather nice long bike ride paid for by others?


If i met him I would have so many questions.

What I do know is:

I am in awe of what he has achieved.

I'm also afraid that what he is doing this now is an attempt to "save face", which from my view point he doesn't have to.

Well I do know Steve, and I did contribute.  I think that does give me more right to comment on what Steve does with the funds that somebody who hasn't contributed. I also found that your comment to which mattc objected could be construed as containing a rather unpleasant insinuation about Steve. I don't know you, and I don't know whether that was what you intended.

For you, perhaps, this thread is the opportunity to sound off about something. But there is somebody out there at this very moment trudging on in sub-zero temperatures whilst you give the world the benefit of your opinion from the comfort of your home. It is highly likely that that person reads (or read) these pages so it behoves you, as somebody who doesn't know Steve and hasnt put anything into this, to think very carefully about how you word your comments.
Well put,  thankyou.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: yanto on January 16, 2016, 08:17:04 am
gosh, isnt this new thread going well? :)

It and other threads go so much better with free speech, lack of insinuation as to worthyness in comment and constructive criticism.

Why don't you discuss this current record attempt as the thread title says, stop doing the old "passive aggressive" bollocks, eh? Now there's a good chap!

I will repeat, what is he doing, it is to beat the 76076 miles, is as mentioned ^^^^^^^ to beat Tommy's consecutive 365 day record?  I need educating here as my memory fails me with old age, what is that record?

Also for the record I fully support Steve, I have followed his ups and downs from day 1, read every thread on here about it, followed faceache, been stunned by Jo's graphics and been amazed by a lot of mantra and pig headed view points on here from people who appear to be unable to accept what is happening to Steve re: "the record attempt".

I don't know Steve, I don't know;

What's driving him,
What his aims are,
Whether he's enjoying this,
Whether he thinks this is a rather nice long bike ride paid for by others?


If i met him I would have so many questions.

What I do know is:

I am in awe of what he has achieved.

I'm also afraid that what he is doing this now is an attempt to "save face", which from my view point he doesn't have to.

Well I do know Steve, and I did contribute.  I think that does give me more right to comment on what Steve does with the funds that somebody who hasn't contributed. I also found that your comment to which mattc objected could be construed as containing a rather unpleasant insinuation about Steve. I don't know you, and I don't know whether that was what you intended.

For you, perhaps, this thread is the opportunity to sound off about something. But there is somebody out there at this very moment trudging on in sub-zero temperatures whilst you give the world the benefit of your opinion from the comfort of your home. It is highly likely that that person reads (or read) these pages so it behoves you, as somebody who doesn't know Steve and hasnt put anything into this, to think very carefully about how you word your comments.

Righto BOSS ! :thumbsup:

You assume that I haven't contributed therefore have no right to have a view - pull your head out of your pompous arse, please, and i refuse to be bullied into saying whether I have, or continue to fund, so you can stop that line of attack now......

I can have my view as well as you or Mattc, you don't own Steve, he's not YOUR precious child to be protected, he's a big lad, if he reads this, i say great.

My view is that he will not succeed in beating 76076 miles in 365 consecutive days, nor will he beat Tommy's record, but that doesn't mean that I don't WANT him to.

You might not like MY view, but grow up and accept that people with views other you and your brother in arms' do have an equal right to comment.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 16, 2016, 08:21:34 am
OK. First impression confirmed. You won't hear from me again.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: yanto on January 16, 2016, 08:31:14 am
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Polar Bear on January 16, 2016, 08:34:36 am
I see that the bullies are back in the playground.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 16, 2016, 08:36:39 am
We're better than this.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Polar Bear on January 16, 2016, 08:43:31 am
Clearly not.  Once is careless ...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: ElyDave on January 16, 2016, 08:46:18 am
Seems to be descending into the usual "you can have any opinion you like, as long as you agree with me" kind of free speech.

And here's me thinking we were in the 21st century.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 16, 2016, 08:48:39 am
I would suggest going for a bike ride, but it's icy and surely nobody would venture out in this. Oh....
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Jaded on January 16, 2016, 08:53:10 am
Many of his supporters (certainly on FaceBook) are regularly praising him for doing it the "real" way - i.e. as opposed to how Kurt broke the record, which they presumably think was cheating in some way.

Some people don't like to think. Such is life.

The rot started with this. Not a nice post at all.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Polar Bear on January 16, 2016, 08:55:16 am
I may be wrong but I think that Katie Hopkins has infiltrated YACF and is trying to get thst bloody cyclist off the roads!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: toontra on January 16, 2016, 08:56:35 am
I see that the bullies are back in the playground.

Indeed - you need to ask MattH to stop posting.  He's been chief bully and instigator of all nastiness on these threads for the past year.  If you don't believe me then I suggest you review the two threads and see where the unpleasantness starts and who is responsible.

Or perhaps you will make an exception for him because his views concur with yours?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Jaded on January 16, 2016, 09:06:18 am
I see that the bullies are back in the playground.

Indeed - you need to ask MattH to stop posting.  He's been chief bully and instigator of all nastiness on these threads for the past year.  If you don't believe me then I suggest you review the two threads and see where the unpleasantness starts and who is responsible.

Or perhaps you will make an exception for him because his views concur with yours?
Yeah, mattH is a runt!! Kill him with sticks!

Oops, wrong Matt.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: ElyDave on January 16, 2016, 09:08:46 am
I see that the bullies are back in the playground.

Indeed - you need to ask MattH to stop posting.  He's been chief bully and instigator of all nastiness on these threads for the past year.  If you don't believe me then I suggest you review the two threads and see where the unpleasantness starts and who is responsible.

Or perhaps you will make an exception for him because his views concur with yours?

I think that's a bit uncalled for, PB whilst not agreeing with other opinions, to me has respected the right of others to disagree. 

Others have gone down the route of I know Steve better than you, or if you're not funding you can't have a view
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 16, 2016, 09:20:58 am
Soo ..any thoughts on the record attempts?

Does anyone know what Bruce is carrying with him...I can see he mentions wrecked tyres...anyone know if he or a fellow rider is carrying spares ect or if he has a replacement bike available at short notice?   

Another 212 miles from him at 18.7 again...seems to be his comfort zone at the mo.  Again his strava data shows explosive efforts on the flat with pretty modest speeds up what he says are very gradual climbs.   Again he gets a hugs number of free, downhill, very fast miles later in the day.   
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Polar Bear on January 16, 2016, 09:23:08 am
There are aggressive snd passive aggressive posters on both sides.   

You don't actually know my view because I don't wear it like a badge of honour, puff out my chest and tell all those with an opposing view to fuck off and get a life.

I have read both tbreads and I find the lack of excellence disturbing.  It seems to me that there is a band of posters who are determined to undermine Steve and his team no matter what Steve and the team does.   Nothing is good, nothing is right, Steve will fail, why should he have all this time to ride his bike on the back of his sponsors, etc., etc., etc.    The most ridiculous and farcical bit is when these posters damm Steve with faint praise and profess to support him.

These people do not like to have their view challenged and make this place something it is not and should not become.    They will trot out the usual freedom of speech cobblers to justify their right to remain nasty.   Very tory tabloid, very Katie Hopkins, very vulgar.

Before the mods decide to lock this thread too, might I suggest that ALL concerned reconsider why and how they post in here.   After all, this is not POBI.   It is possible to express opinions with considered reason rather than with contemptuous malice.

Personally I don't think that I will post in here again, rather leave it to the nasty crew.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 16, 2016, 09:26:37 am


Personally I don't think that I will post in here again, rather leave it to the nasty crew.

That would be nice...not because you are nasty, or that I am nasty....more that you never actually post anything interesting about any of the record attempts ...  and personally that's all I am here for.

If a few more could take your lead and stick to it that would be lovely
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 16, 2016, 09:27:16 am
I see that the bullies are back in the playground.

Indeed - you need to ask MattH to stop posting.  He's been chief bully and instigator of all nastiness on these threads for the past year.  If you don't believe me then I suggest you review the two threads and see where the unpleasantness starts and who is responsible.

Or perhaps you will make an exception for him because his views concur with yours?

I think that's a bit uncalled for, PB whilst not agreeing with other opinions, to me has respected the right of others to disagree. 

Others have gone down the route of I know Steve better than you, or if you're not funding you can't have a view

Err no....if that is my post you are commenting on I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that expressing a view is not without effect on others, including Steve, and if the expression of that view has negative consequences then it needs to be considered carefully, especially if the person expressing that view is an uninvolved observer.

Talk is cheap.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mustgettaller on January 16, 2016, 09:28:15 am
Oh FFS people.

Given the title of this thread, people are allowed to give their thoughts. Guess what, some people's opinions don't match yours. Some may even think what Steve is doing is wrong, or he's doing it wrong. They're allowed to think that and say it.

Steve has a login to this forum, and if he wants can look here and respond himself.

Get off your high horses and let people have opinions without taking moral high grounds and managing to take offense (often on behalf of others).

It's like listening to a playground conversation between a bunch of 10 year old girls sometimes.

How about people posting about the record attempt, and taking inter-member bitching somewhere else?

[Edit - correcting a typo.]
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Arry-R on January 16, 2016, 09:32:11 am
Soo ..any thoughts on the record attempts?




Plus one.
It would be nice to have more pleasant postings and refrain from quite a lot of bitterness to each other.  If all that surplus energy were directed more towards Steve's goal I think this forum would be all the better!  The other thread was locked by the LOCKERARATOR  (I mean Moderator) and this one be could suffer the same fate.  So fellow cyclists more kindliness and respect for the views of others  'Have a nice day '!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Pale Rider on January 16, 2016, 09:53:10 am

A handful of members are determined to post about anything other than the record attempt.

Banning them from the thread for a few weeks would prove my point.

As regards the attempt, I make it Steve needs about 209 miles a day for the rest of the month to make his (revised downwards) target for January.

At some point he is going to have to start banging in 200+ days, day after day after day.

He's shown little sign of being able to do that, the weather will inevitably continue to be crappish for a while, so I see him falling further and further behind schedule.

Viewed another way, he needs about 225 miles a day, every day, for 200+ days.

He managed that one day this week, but his elapsed time was 23+ hours.

However you play with the numbers, the record is out of reach.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: rafletcher on January 16, 2016, 10:06:32 am
It's so very hard to judge in this weather and at this time of year. Our bodies naturally want more sleep during the longer nights of winter, no matter we try and force them into a rigid regime. Riding in the cold is harder work, trying to keep warm, concentrating more on road conditions etc etc. It's such a shame the first attempt was derailed just as the warmer weather approached - though it wasn't much of a summer. I'm not sure Steve will be able to beat Godwin, let alone Kurt, but I think using the coldest month of the year as a yardstick to judge the attempt on is maybe premature. Or perhaps the restart was premature and could have waited to Jan 1st this year. Whatever, I think the attempt deserves a bit of leeway yet.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 16, 2016, 10:06:51 am
Does anyone know what Bruce is carrying with him...I can see he mentions wrecked tyres...anyone know if he or a fellow rider is carrying spares ect or if he has a replacement bike available at short notice?   

I guess he just means he changed the tyres at the end of the day as he noticed they were wrecked. Or he stopped in at a bike shop to do it. I don't think he's carrying spare tyres with him just in case.

I've had similar on long rides. Start off and the tyres look fine, by the end there are big patches of carcass visible:-

http://www.greenbank.org/misc/reartyre1.jpg

I rode on the above for 200 miles on LEL09 until I got to my Dalkeith bagdrop that had a spare tyre in it.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: PaulF on January 16, 2016, 10:07:57 am
We really need two separate threads on this: one to discuss the record attempt and another to discuss the discussion about the record attempt :-D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LMT on January 16, 2016, 10:09:17 am
193 miles yesterday and Steve mentioned something about some busted tri bars. He left a hotel in Kings Lynn around 0940hrs and is on the road, hope he managed to do some sort of botch job with the bars to make life a little easier.

I think it's a fairly calmer day today weather wise, albeit cold so it'd be interesting to see if he can hit target.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: andyoxon on January 16, 2016, 10:11:47 am
A reminder:

ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person (or presumably group of people) rather than the position they are maintaining.

just leave it out...

Back to Steve, or others.

edit
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 16, 2016, 10:14:13 am
193 miles yesterday and Steve mentioned something about some busted tri bars.

That was the day before. The Strava upload for yesterday hasn't been uploaded yet, the rides appear a day later than they should as they usually contain a trackpoint past midnight so they are dated according to the latest date in the file.

Yesterday (15th Jan) he rode from Tadcaster to York and down to King's Lynn. No idea of the proper mileage yet.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LMT on January 16, 2016, 10:14:33 am
Soo ..any thoughts on the record attempts?




Plus one.
It would be nice to have more pleasant postings and refrain from quite a lot of bitterness to each other.  If all that surplus energy were directed more towards Steve's goal I think this forum would be all the better!  The other thread was locked by the LOCKERARATOR  (I mean Moderator) and this one be could suffer the same fate.  So fellow cyclists more kindliness and respect for the views of others  'Have a nice day '!

I would not mind if this thread was locked TBH. You have the views of various people, there's nothing more really to add until a couple of weeks time when Steve's team said themselves that they'll review the attempt at the end of the month.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LMT on January 16, 2016, 10:17:30 am
193 miles yesterday and Steve mentioned something about some busted tri bars.

That was the day before. The Strava upload for yesterday hasn't been uploaded yet, the rides appear a day later than they should as they usually contain a trackpoint past midnight so they are dated according to the latest date in the file.

Yesterday (15th Jan) he rode from Tadcaster to York and down to King's Lynn. No idea of the proper mileage yet.

 :facepalm:So it was, lol. He's on the road now, I'd have thought he would have uploaded his ride befre hand. Anyways enjoy a fine winters day riding Steve.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 16, 2016, 10:21:59 am
I'd have thought he would have uploaded his ride befre hand.

If he wants to optimise his time I'd hope he's emailing the GPS files and photos (that UMCA require as part of the proof-of-passage) off to someone else to spend the time organising, trimming off the stops that add unridden distance and then submitting. If time is tight he shouldn't be wasting his own time doing this.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 16, 2016, 10:25:20 am
A reminder:

ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

just leave it out...

Back to Steve.
My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.

(As well as an enormous irony to Andy's post!)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Arry-R on January 16, 2016, 10:27:32 am
As regards the attempt, I make it Steve needs about 209 miles a day for the rest of the month to make his (revised downwards) target for January.

At some point he is going to have to start banging in 200+ days, day after day after day.

He's shown little sign of being able to do that, the weather will inevitably continue to be crappish for a while, so I see him falling further and further behind schedule.

Viewed another way, he needs about 225 miles a day,
[/quote]




Please can you add this month's daily average based on his 185 mls per day  (of last year ) from 1st Feb what would the daily average needed then be. Although 205 a day for Jan and 220 per day is most unlikely to happen. Let us hope when the weather improves  (Spring +) he will churn out the proposed mileages of last year's schedule.

U

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 16, 2016, 10:27:47 am
Soo ..any thoughts on the record attempts?




Plus one.
It would be nice to have more pleasant postings and refrain from quite a lot of bitterness to each other.  If all that surplus energy were directed more towards Steve's goal I think this forum would be all the better!  The other thread was locked by the LOCKERARATOR  (I mean Moderator) and this one be could suffer the same fate.  So fellow cyclists more kindliness and respect for the views of others  'Have a nice day '!

I would not mind if this thread was locked TBH. You have the views of various people, there's nothing more really to add until a couple of weeks time when Steve's team said themselves that they'll review the attempt at the end of the month.

Unless you make Steve and the HAM'R a banned topic altogether (good luck with that!), you're not going to stop conversation about it by locking this or any other thread. The fact is that people have strong opinions and will state them. There's a group who feel that Steve is already past the point where the record is out of reach, and a group who feel that the record isn't out of reach until Steve says it is. It's the science (or, in this case, maths) versus faith thing; the two will never be reconciled. However, it would be rather better if the protagonists on each side would respect the other's right to hold their opinion and to state it. Repeatedly, if they wish.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 16, 2016, 10:29:36 am
Soo ..any thoughts on the record attempts?




Plus one.
It would be nice to have more pleasant postings and refrain from quite a lot of bitterness to each other.  If all that surplus energy were directed more towards Steve's goal I think this forum would be all the better!  The other thread was locked by the LOCKERARATOR  (I mean Moderator) and this one be could suffer the same fate.  So fellow cyclists more kindliness and respect for the views of others  'Have a nice day '!

I would not mind if this thread was locked TBH. You have the views of various people, there's nothing more really to add until a couple of weeks time when Steve's team said themselves that they'll review the attempt at the end of the month.

Apart from the fact that this thread is about the current "attempts" ..not just Steve.

So as far as we know - Bruce is getting some drafting help on the road from some pretty serious riders...but other than he is doing everything himself?

That makes what he is doing pretty damn impressive if so ...although I do wonder what happens when kit suffers a critical failure?  I guess he has quite a bit of time spare in his day with how quick he gets the miles in!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 16, 2016, 10:30:44 am
The record is within reach if he can cycle with a moving time of 12h, that will allow him enough sleep to avoid burn out and have enough time to eat and stop at traffic lights. This needs a moving speed of close to 18mph and will require an increase in power output of about 50%.

This can be done but is very hard and Steve will have to increase the amount he eats by about 25%, which will take more time. He started at 9:41 today so at his current speed he will have to be going until midnight again to do 200 miles.

The schedule http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation (http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation) shows May as been the highest planned daily mileage at 230 miles a day. This will require a moving speed of over 19mph.

As for January up to the 11th he averaged 187 miles a day and is about 149 miles behind his latest plan and about 13 miles a day down. To catch this up he needs 210 miles a day between now and the end of January.

Speeding up is harder than riding more hours, Steve is riding more hours and this makes speeding up harder. It looks like the attempt will fail, but I want Steve to do it and a supporter. Some things will have to change and the first one is an attempt to speed up. I see no sign of this.

BB
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 16, 2016, 10:34:05 am
So as far as we know - Bruce is getting some drafting help on the road from some pretty serious riders...but other than he is doing everything himself?

That makes what he is doing pretty damn impressive if so ...although I do wonder what happens when kit suffers a critical failure?  I guess he has quite a bit of time spare in his day with how quick he gets the miles in!


Bruce does appear to be on his own, but I guess he's in Adelaide because he has connections there and he didn't just pick it at random. As a bike mechanic, I'm sure he's well capable of doing whatever maintenance is needed. I had the impression that his bike was provided by Canyon, so there may be some support there, and the fact that he's been riding with the pro teams suggests that he has significant numbers of useful contacts in the sport!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 16, 2016, 10:39:56 am
He (Bruce) has so far only gone as far as ~50km from home. Even a catastrophic failure is a relatively cheap taxi ride and maybe even only an hour lost.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Polar Bear on January 16, 2016, 10:40:31 am
... or those who just think that at present the record is not out of reach notwithstanding whether Steve says that it is, or otherwise.    This is a crucial position ignored by almost all of those who insist that the record IS out of reach and get angry at those who have not yet succumbed to this point of view.

Whilst there remains a possibility, I feel that Steve deserves support and encouragement for his efforts.   

The record is within reach if he can cycle with a moving time of 12h, that will allow him enough sleep to avoid burn out and have enough time to eat and stop at traffic lights. This needs a moving speed of close to 18mph and will require an increase in power output of about 50%.

This can be done but is very hard and Steve will have to increase the amount he eats by about 25%, which will take more time. He started at 9:41 today so at his current speed he will have to be going until midnight again to do 200 miles.

The schedule http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation (http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/the-preparation) shows May as been the highest planned daily mileage at 230 miles a day. This will require a moving speed of over 19mph.

As for January up to the 11th he averaged 187 miles a day and is about 149 miles behind his latest plan and about 13 miles a day down. To catch this up he needs 210 miles a day between now and the end of January.

Speeding up is harder than riding more hours, Steve is riding more hours and this makes speeding up harder. It looks like the attempt will fail, but I want Steve to do it and a supporter. Some things will have to change and the first one is an attempt to speed up. I see no sign of this.

BB

A sensible post which is entirely usual for BB.   However, in my opinion, and no offence intended BB, this reiterates what has been said again and again and again.   I also "see no sign of this" yet also know not what the future brings, and nor does anybody else.

We will know what Steve and the team think in just over two weeks as to whether they feel that Steve should continue as is, whether there will be further strategic changes, or whether the record is out of reach, and, whether he should stop. or not.   Until then, roll on Steve and the best of luck on your travels. 

I trust that I have not failed to bore a certain few here.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: red marley on January 16, 2016, 10:49:33 am
Looking at Steve's revised 2016 schedule (v.2.0), should he manage to stick to it, there will be a few nail biting days in August. He will only overtake Kurt during those days after Kurt had taken the record from Tommy and had eased off a little. Now that would by a story worthy of Hollywood treatment...

(http://gicentre.org/oytt/images/scheduleEnd.png)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 16, 2016, 10:54:48 am
Steves team published a revised plan and schedule for the Aug-Aug attempt earlier this month. It was declared that a reassessment would occur after a month.

(We dont know the criteria that will guide this review, and we dont know if this publication was due to social media pressure).

So I cant see the point of making any demands on Steve or team in the middle of January. Let them get on with it.

Currently opinions vary on how likely success is at this stage. But as PB says, how can anyone caterogically condemn the optimists? Did anyone here make a concrete statement, back in January, of what run-rate makes the attempt unfeasible? If they did, and they've stuck to that, they will earn some respect from me.
In the meantime, the figures are there for everyone to read, supporters, sponsors, donors, everyone; if raleigh or PB still want to support Steve, who has the rihjt to stop them?

If Joe Bloggs wants to stop donating, fair enough; but please dont demand that others fall in line.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Chris S on January 16, 2016, 10:58:31 am
I can confirm that Steve is riding with a broken tri-bar; just means the left one is shorter than the right  :D.

The bike's drive train is also looking in dire need of some TLC. Several days of riding on wet (and now salted) roads is taking its toll. I presume he'll return to base soon to get all this sorted.

Weather looks calmer, but chilly, for the next 48 hours or so. All things being equal (which they're not), he needs to put in some big days this weekend.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 16, 2016, 11:07:45 am
I can confirm that Steve is riding with a broken tri-bar; just means the left one is shorter than the right  :D.

The bike's drive train is also looking in dire need of some TLC. Several days of riding on wet (and now salted) roads is taking its toll. I presume he'll return to base soon to get all this sorted.

Weather looks calmer, but chilly, for the next 48 hours or so. All things being equal (which they're not), he needs to put in some big days this weekend.

At his current speed he will need big nights as well as big days because his start time v average speed does not add up to what he needs before midnight.

Chris - you have recent contact ...Has a fast, flat circuit close to home been ruled out?  If it just isn't what Steve wants to do then I respect that - but it seems odd to cycle so far from help with deteriorating kit and dodgy weather?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 16, 2016, 11:25:42 am
Chris - you have recent contact ...Has a fast, flat circuit close to home been ruled out?  If it just isn't what Steve wants to do then I respect that - but it seems odd to cycle so far from help with deteriorating kit and dodgy weather?
My thoughts - he could get some bike fettling by some soul in MK. This is just adding more risk without apparent payback. If he wants to stay away and get a full cooked breakfast he need not stay at home. There are a number of Premier Inns close to MK. Also if the weather deteriorates he will be on known roads and could just go up and down part of the A5 that will be one of the better gritted roads in the area. Not fun but we are talking about function.

One thing that has surprised me is how hilly MK and the surrounding area is. I have been looking for loops near MK (must not have enough to do) and they all come out at about 10m  per km average.

BB
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 16, 2016, 11:26:15 am
I can confirm that Steve is riding with a broken tri-bar; just means the left one is shorter than the right  :D.

I demand to be told if anyone one in The Team advised him to do an anti-clockwise loop today and thereby take advantage of that!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 16, 2016, 11:33:34 am
Steves team published a revised plan and schedule for the Aug-Aug attempt earlier this month. It was declared that a reassessment would occur after a month.

(We dont know the criteria that will guide this review, and we dont know if this publication was due to social media pressure).

So I cant see the point of making any demands on Steve or team in the middle of January. Let them get on with it.

Currently opinions vary on how likely success is at this stage. But as PB says, how can anyone caterogically condemn the optimists? Did anyone here make a concrete statement, back in January, of what run-rate makes the attempt unfeasible? If they did, and they've stuck to that, they will earn some respect from me.
In the meantime, the figures are there for everyone to read, supporters, sponsors, donors, everyone; if raleigh or PB still want to support Steve, who has the rihjt to stop them?

If Joe Bloggs wants to stop donating, fair enough; but please dont demand that others fall in line.



Actually, I believe the revised plan has already been re-revised to account for a mistake in the calculation of the miles achieved in the days before the revised plan was announced, and the weather-induced mileage shortfall in the subsequent days, so - whether or not the promise of a review was in response to discussions here and elsewhere - some kind of reassessment is going on constantly.

The discussion as to whether the attempt is doomed essentially comes from a study of the daily mileages Steve has put in over the last year compared to the daily mileages required to achieve the record, and the observation that the gap between the two is now rather larger than is comfortable. Whether you believe that the difference is insurmountable, or you believe that it's well within Steve's capabilities, no-one will actually know until the attempt has either got back on track or has capitulated. In the meantime, discussion will go on...

The donations thing is - or should be - less contentious. It's up to individuals whether they donate or not (but donation does not bring with it a greater right to comment). If Steve decides - and announces - that the record attempt is over but he wishes to keep riding, then people will have to reassess whether and why they donate. Until then, the record attempt is alive and the donations are in direct support of it, which is as it should be.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 16, 2016, 11:43:01 am
Did anyone here make a concrete statement, back in January, of what run-rate makes the attempt unfeasible?

I said a while ago that any schedule that requires Steve to average 220+ miles per day till the end to take the record is beyond his reach. Or did you mean January 2015?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hummers on January 16, 2016, 11:53:03 am
It's freezing daaan Sarff. One of our Wednesday night chums came a cropper on black ice this morning, currently in hospital awaiting the x-ray results but suspects a busted collar bone. Postie and me went out a year ago in freezing conditions and both thought "I don't envy Steve riding 14+ hours in this".

Then again, he has been riding (almost) every day for over a year so barring an ice related disaster, he is probably used to the cold temperatures.

Either way, rather him than me,

Allez Steve!

H
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 16, 2016, 12:04:40 pm
Quite so Mr Hummers. I'm thinking of a 200 DIY tomorrow but I deffinitely *won't* if there's any chance of ice.

I have my fingers firmly crossed Steve's ice detectors are working.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Chris S on January 16, 2016, 12:34:55 pm
Chris - you have recent contact ...Has a fast, flat circuit close to home been ruled out?  If it just isn't what Steve wants to do then I respect that - but it seems odd to cycle so far from help with deteriorating kit and dodgy weather?

To be fair, although we had 5 hours "contact", of that, he was asleep for 4.5 hours, and eating for 20 minutes, so there wasn't much time for talking  :D.

He spends a great deal of time weighing pros and cons of different strategies. We talked about the perceived efficacy of vehicle transfers (he'll put up with compromised sleep if the tailwind the following day is at least 15mph) and why he considered Thursday night the best night (it was also the best night for me, so it just kinda worked).

I asked him about going to the South of France, but he was already asleep  ;D.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 16, 2016, 12:38:53 pm
Chris - you have recent contact ...Has a fast, flat circuit close to home been ruled out?  If it just isn't what Steve wants to do then I respect that - but it seems odd to cycle so far from help with deteriorating kit and dodgy weather?

To be fair, although we had 5 hours "contact", of that, he was asleep for 4.5 hours, and eating for 20 minutes, so there wasn't much time for talking  :D.

He spends a great deal of time weighing pros and cons of different strategies. We talked about the perceived efficacy of vehicle transfers (he'll put up with compromised sleep if the tailwind the following day is at least 15mph) and why he considered Thursday night the best night (it was also the best night for me, so it just kinda worked).

I asked him about going to the South of France, but he was already asleep  ;D.


Thanks for the reply...you missed an opportunity to turn the car around and drive him to the south of France.. "Wakey wakey- we are here!"
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 16, 2016, 12:39:43 pm
Chris - you have recent contact ...Has a fast, flat circuit close to home been ruled out?  If it just isn't what Steve wants to do then I respect that - but it seems odd to cycle so far from help with deteriorating kit and dodgy weather?
My thoughts - he could get some bike fettling by some soul in MK. ...

He already has this. When he gets home he can swap to one of the spare bikes and one of the MK team will get round to servicing the bike he just brought back.

For Steve though (on the mini 5 day trips he seems to do), with a quick wipe down each night and some oil each day a bike should handle the 1000 winter miles between bike swaps and these mini-services.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 16, 2016, 01:40:24 pm
Has there been any word on the effectiveness of Steve’s plan to keep his HR down? I know he used this in his first months on the road, but is he still deliberately avoiding faster HR? Or did it serve its purpose in those early stages?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Kim on January 16, 2016, 02:07:04 pm
Has there been any word on the effectiveness of Steve’s plan to keep his HR down? I know he used this in his first months on the road, but is he still deliberately avoiding faster HR? Or did it serve its purpose in those early stages?

Last time I brought this up, the man himself came along shortly afterwards and said he wasn't riding to a heartrate.  Presumably he's been on the bike for long enough that he knows what level of effort he can maintain.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 16, 2016, 02:23:31 pm
Has there been any word on the effectiveness of Steve’s plan to keep his HR down? I know he used this in his first months on the road, but is he still deliberately avoiding faster HR? Or did it serve its purpose in those early stages?

Last time I brought this up, the man himself came along shortly afterwards and said he wasn't riding to a heartrate.  Presumably he's been on the bike for long enough that he knows what level of effort he can maintain.

Thanks Kim - missed that.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 16, 2016, 02:33:57 pm
Did anyone here make a concrete statement, back in January, of what run-rate makes the attempt unfeasible?

I said a while ago that any schedule that requires Steve to average 220+ miles per day till the end to take the record is beyond his reach. Or did you mean January 2015?
Yep, Jan 2015.

(but you can bank that statement above, in case we're still having this discussion in June! )
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 16, 2016, 02:48:47 pm
<SNIP> in case we're still having this discussion in June! )

If this is still going on in April, (regardless of the average daily mileage required to take the record) Steve's position is highly likely to be "It is so close to August now, I might as well keep going."
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Von Broad on January 16, 2016, 03:34:39 pm
Whilst there remains a possibility, I feel that Steve deserves support and encouragement for his efforts.   

But he's getting good consistent support and always has done right from the outset.
Financially he's in a sound position, but more importantly he is getting the hands on home-support in MK - and it's unselfish, generous, loyal support carried out by people that have their own lives to run at the same time, without which Steve goes nowhere fast. That's the real essential, necessary support. And it goes largely unacknowledged on here as well. Kurt would have been nothing without Alicia and the van and Steve likewise.

As for encouragement, I have a bit more of a problem with that. Henceforth, it doesn't sit easy with me to encourage him further into prolonged periods of extreme physical exertion, and make no mistake, they will be extreme states if he is going to get anywhere near the target he desires. Sorry, but I'm just not comfortable encouraging him into that, not now, not at this stage.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: andyoxon on January 16, 2016, 04:11:56 pm
A reminder:

ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

just leave it out...

Back to Steve.
My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.

...

Well not quite, as Steve is not really engaging in discussion and posting about the record attempt(s) on this thread.

Anyway...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 16, 2016, 04:59:52 pm
A reminder:

ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

just leave it out...

Back to Steve.
My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.

...

Well not quite, as Steve is not really engaging in discussion and posting about the record attempt(s) on this thread.

Anyway...
How absurd. He's been a regular and frequent poster on YACF for years until Jan 2015 when he became a bit busy. Even in 2015 he posted here occasionally.

It's well known that he dips in and reads threads from time to time.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 16, 2016, 05:09:34 pm
Matt, nothing that's said here - no matter how negative on the chances of Steve's success - is an attack on Steve. It's a comment on what he's doing, which is a public, and publicly-funded, enterprise. It is therefore open for comment, and there's no assumption that any comment should be positive. No-one on here has expressed any antipathy toward Steve himself. They are as entitled as anyone to express their thoughts on the likelihood of success. It really isn't for you to assume offence on Steve's behalf if those thoughts are not optimistic.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Pale Rider on January 16, 2016, 05:12:26 pm
A reminder:

ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

just leave it out...

Back to Steve.
My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.

...

Well not quite, as Steve is not really engaging in discussion and posting about the record attempt(s) on this thread.

Anyway...
How absurd. He's been a regular and frequent poster on YACF for years until Jan 2015 when he became a bit busy. Even in 2015 he posted here occasionally.

It's well known that he dips in and reads threads from time to time.

Not as absurd as thinking anything posted on here is an attack on Steve.

I expect you know that, but you keep on posting irrelevant nonsense in a bid to stop reasonable assessment and criticism of the record attempt.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Polar Bear on January 16, 2016, 05:21:24 pm
Whilst there remains a possibility, I feel that Steve deserves support and encouragement for his efforts.   

But he's getting good consistent support and always has done right from the outset.
Financially he's in a sound position, but more importantly he is getting the hands on home-support in MK - and it's unselfish, generous, loyal support carried out by people that have their own lives to run at the same time, without which Steve goes nowhere fast. That's the real essential, necessary support. And it goes largely unacknowledged on here as well. Kurt would have been nothing without Alicia and the van and Steve likewise.

As for encouragement, I have a bit more of a problem with that. Henceforth, it doesn't sit easy with me to encourage him further into prolonged periods of extreme physical exertion, and make no mistake, they will be extreme states if he is going to get anywhere near the target he desires. Sorry, but I'm just not comfortable encouraging him into that, not now, not at this stage.

So am I missing something here or is your point and that of many posters here that Steve should stop now simply because you all believe that it's not in his best interests to try?   

It's a 365 day attempt requiring Steve, of which he was fully aware at the outset, to ride on through the worst of winter as well as the best of summer.   His schedule requires it, to get anywhere near the record requires it, to simply complete the challenge whether ultimately successful or otherwise requires it.   Didn't you all think that this would be the case?   I'm pretty certain that Steve as a prolific mile eater before this challenge started had a pretty good idea of what might lay ahead of him and he's attacking it with commendable commitment and tenacity. 

The very fact that you and others think that it's too tough out there is exactly why he deserves support, encourangement and ultimately, some bloody respect.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 16, 2016, 05:31:30 pm
Matt, nothing that's said here - no matter how negative on the chances of Steve's success - is an attack on Steve. It's a comment on what he's doing, which is a public, and publicly-funded, enterprise. It is therefore open for comment, and there's no assumption that any comment should be positive. No-one on here has expressed any antipathy toward Steve himself. They are as entitled as anyone to express their thoughts on the likelihood of success. It really isn't for you to assume offence on Steve's behalf if those thoughts are not optimistic.
"attacks on Steve"? That seems a bit of a straw man - or at least putting words in my mouth. Odd.

Anyway, i feel free to post my views, and sometimes my views/thoughts relate to daft comments already made here (and some of those comments are indeed critical of Steve).

Its clear that several other members - whose views I have mostly found quite sound in the past - think along similar lines to me (on this topic, anyway!). So I'm clearly not some deranged fantasist.

(To be honest, several of today's posts feel like attempts to shut me up. We can't have that in this Temple to Free Speech, can we? :P )
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 16, 2016, 05:47:17 pm
To be honest, several of today's posts feel like attempts to shut me up

Matt, this thread. It's not about you.

Trust me.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Von Broad on January 16, 2016, 05:57:32 pm
So am I missing something here or is your point and that of many posters here that Steve should stop now simply because you all believe that it's not in his best interests to try?   

Ok sorry for the misunderstanding - I'll try and clarify and be as clear as I can: I'm not comfortable [me, personally] with encouraging him any further. I'm not prepared to pretend otherwise. I'm not talking for anybody else but myself and I'm not saying Steve should do anything differently than he is doing. He will do as he sees fit regardless. That is all.

It's a 365 day attempt requiring Steve, of which he was fully aware at the outset, to ride on through the worst of winter as well as the best of summer.   His schedule requires it, to get anywhere near the record requires it, to simply complete the challenge whether ultimately successful or otherwise requires it.   Didn't you all think that this would be the case?   I'm pretty certain that Steve as a prolific mile eater before this challenge started had a pretty good idea of what might lay ahead of him and he's attacking it with commendable commitment and tenacity. 

I thought exactly the same on day one of the challenge too.

The very fact that you and others think that it's too tough out there is exactly why he deserves support, encourangement and ultimately, some bloody respect.

I can only repeat what I've just said: I'm not telling anybody else what to say, think or do.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: fboab on January 16, 2016, 06:00:11 pm
The very fact that you and others think that it's too tough out there is exactly why he deserves support, encourangement and ultimately, some bloody respect.

I don't think 'it's too tough out there'. If he was bashing out 200 miles day after day in it, I would, awe-struck, tell him to carry on. I'd probably be working much harder to help, too, with both practical and cheerleading support.

I think trying to do what he's doing, here and now, is doomed to failure, and for his long (and short!) term health, he should stop this attempt.
It would appear from his actions that his thoughts on it are that this is the chance he's got, and he has to go for it here & now. As he's the one riding, that's ultimately his choice, but in exactly the same way I think it's stupid to (for example) ride The Dean in snow, I think it's shortsighted to ride ever decreasing ever slowing daily distances in deteriorating weather for a record you aren't going to break.
If we've learnt anything over the last 13 months, it must surely include:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: yanto on January 16, 2016, 06:11:52 pm
The very fact that you and others think that it's too tough out there is exactly why he deserves support, encourangement and ultimately, some bloody respect.

I don't think 'it's too tough out there'. If he was bashing out 200 miles day after day in it, I would, awe-struck, tell him to carry on. I'd probably be working much harder to help, too, with both practical and cheerleading support.

I think trying to do what he's doing, here and now, is doomed to failure, and for his long (and short!) term health, he should stop this attempt.
It would appear from his actions that his thoughts on it are that this is the chance he's got, and he has to go for it here & now. As he's the one riding, that's ultimately his choice, but in exactly the same way I think it's stupid to (for example) ride The Dean in snow, I think it's shortsighted to ride ever decreasing ever slowing daily distances in deteriorating weather for a record you aren't going to break.
If we've learnt anything over the last 13 months, it must surely include:
  • Steve is every bit as hardcore as we thought
  • Kurt is hardier than we thought
  • Full time mobile support makes it a lot easier
  • Riding further is easier if you ride faster
  • Warm weather and riding companions can help
  • There are a finite number of hours in the day and even the mighty teethgrinder needs sleep

Thank you for that, you have captured the essence of what i've so inadequately been trying to say;  this isn't being disloyal or disrespectful to Steve, it's about being concerned for him.

There are times when NO and STOP are the correct words.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mustgettaller on January 16, 2016, 06:28:59 pm

"attacks on Steve"? That seems a bit of a straw man...

Anyway,...

Its clear that several other members ...

(To be honest, ...

Yawn.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 16, 2016, 06:29:27 pm
Matt, nothing that's said here - no matter how negative on the chances of Steve's success - is an attack on Steve. It's a comment on what he's doing, which is a public, and publicly-funded, enterprise. It is therefore open for comment, and there's no assumption that any comment should be positive. No-one on here has expressed any antipathy toward Steve himself. They are as entitled as anyone to express their thoughts on the likelihood of success. It really isn't for you to assume offence on Steve's behalf if those thoughts are not optimistic.
"attacks on Steve"? That seems a bit of a straw man - or at least putting words in my mouth. Odd.

Anyway, i feel free to post my views, and sometimes my views/thoughts relate to daft comments already made here (and some of those comments are indeed critical of Steve).

Its clear that several other members - whose views I have mostly found quite sound in the past - think along similar lines to me (on this topic, anyway!). So I'm clearly not some deranged fantasist.

(To be honest, several of today's posts feel like attempts to shut me up. We can't have that in this Temple to Free Speech, can we? :P )

If you didn't believe that some posts were an attack on Steve, what was all this about then? I'm not putting words in your mouth; simply responding to what you have implied - that some posts are an ad hominem attack on Steve. And I think that is a mistaken impression.


A reminder:

ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

just leave it out...

Back to Steve.
My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.

...

Well not quite, as Steve is not really engaging in discussion and posting about the record attempt(s) on this thread.

Anyway...
How absurd. He's been a regular and frequent poster on YACF for years until Jan 2015 when he became a bit busy. Even in 2015 he posted here occasionally.

It's well known that he dips in and reads threads from time to time.


Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 16, 2016, 06:31:10 pm
To be honest, several of today's posts feel like attempts to shut me up

Matt, this thread. It's not about you.

Trust me.
No shit Sherlock :)

But I'm pretty sure that when you et al quote me, and then tell me stop <whatever>ing, then yup, it probably is about me. It seems certain people make a lot of these posts; hopefully it keeps them happy ...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 16, 2016, 06:37:29 pm
Yeah, just stop <whatever>ing. And <whateverelse>ing. Does my head in! ;)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 16, 2016, 07:21:29 pm
I love this thread. No, seriously. I really do.   :)

I'm not being sarcastic either.

Can't say the same for some of the actual comments, mind.  :sick:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wowbagger on January 16, 2016, 07:22:37 pm
*has visions of Wobbly looking at the thread title but not actually clicking on it*
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 16, 2016, 08:36:03 pm
A reminder:

ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

just leave it out...

Back to Steve.
My bold - to hopefully demonstrate one of the main problems here.

...

Well not quite, as Steve is not really engaging in discussion and posting about the record attempt(s) on this thread.

Anyway...
How absurd. He's been a regular and frequent poster on YACF for years until Jan 2015 when he became a bit busy. Even in 2015 he posted here occasionally.

It's well known that he dips in and reads threads from time to time.

You're missing the point quite considerably:-

1) There are plenty of ad hominem attacks on people other than Steve in these threads, by both sides. That's one of the big problems.

2) If you want to bring Steve into it then, yes, the specific comments against Steve's plan/attempt/etc are also an attack against Steve but that doesn't make those ad hominem because Steve himself represents his plan/attempt/etc. They're not just an attack against Steve the person for the sake of it.

Unless, of course, someone can point out an example of an ad hominem attack against Steve. I can't spot one.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Jack_P on January 16, 2016, 08:43:07 pm
I didn't want to go out today, but inner chimp shouted "teethgrinder is planning double your ride man up"
Having ridden with Steve, dare I say I think we are of similar ability physically.
So I headed out Easterly, got bored on the fen roads after 2 hrs, checked the average at 15.7 mph and headed back West.
The meagre breeze was biting cold and the average dropped to below 15.

I then dropped onto the old A1 between Alconbury and Norman Cross (a TT course I believe) going North South out and back. I stuck to my usual little pressure on the pedals style and speed rose to 17.5 mph for 2 hours. It was bliss, safe road, totally dry and sheltered, OK the A1 noise is a pain, the gradients are steady, I didn't get bored.
Rode home Westerly afterwards at 15.2 mph for 2 hours, much harder effort.

Seeing Steve wander round the fens lately struggling to average 15mph dare I put forward this 18mile out and back as a viable "mile grabber" for inclement East/West wind days.
The Premier Inn café at Norman cross is a Teethgrinder haunt, he could get a room there (maybe even free after recent problems) for a couple of nights. Have spare bikes and clothing delivered there; local riders and supporters would find him easily, easy A1 access, and I'm sure some nice sheltered groups of riders would form.   :thumbsup:

Sorry for rambling, but If I was going for the record right now, rather than a long bike ride, that's what I'd be considering, dull as it sounds.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: PAC on January 16, 2016, 09:16:52 pm
Crikey...a huge amount of posts today whilst I've been out enjoying (no joke) the cold and icy conditions on the Willy Warmer ;D .  My thoughts on the record attempt...I think it's an attempt at a record which Steve might or might not succeed in achieving (naturally, like everyone on here, I hope he does), not an attempt for creating war on YACF ::-)

Cheers,

Peter.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: MacB on January 17, 2016, 07:20:50 am
The records and the attempts at them are astonishing, I'm in awe at what both Kurt and Steve have achieved. For me they've both crossed the largest hurdle which is the mental fortitude to actually ride 365 days of serious distances. This is a hurdle that remains for both Bruce and Kajsa and one that I hope doesn't prove too high for either of them. I do understand that the two records are very different in terms of distance but they still share that constant 365 day hurdle. It surprises me how many comments I have seen that are dismissive of the effort by Kajsa due to the lesser distance.

If we assume the mental fortitude then we are left with the physical and the time on/off bike. For Kajsa and Bruce this seems to be fairly balanced. For Kurt it was balanced and for Steve it's not looking so balanced. The physical side also has the luck element, not getting hit by another vehicle(moped), not getting sick and not having too much in the way of serious mechanicals.

I lack both the mental and physical ability for either record but my gut instinct, assuming all else, is that the defining calculation is on/off bike time. For the mens record this only computes either via long hours or higher speeds, there isn't much wiggle room there.

If you could cycle non-stop, at 8.8mph, for a year then you would be around the mens record....that is staggering. Any time off the bike is created by going faster than that.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 17, 2016, 07:45:58 am
That is an excellent idea Jack, certainly for windy weekends there could be quite a group of riders helping out.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 17, 2016, 08:18:41 am
Hasn't Steve said he doesn't want to be paced by groups, due to the additional risks it involves?  I'd imagine this is doubly so in periods of shitty weather.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: falcon on January 17, 2016, 11:04:11 am
A 16.1mph average by Steve yesterday, very good going in these conditions.  Keep it up fella!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 17, 2016, 11:17:52 am
That's a huge leap in Steve's average and, given the weather yesterday, gives a spark of hope that he can lift the daily mileage back toward where it needs to be. Today in East Anglia, it's a bright, sunny, cool and almost windless day. Conditions don't get much better than this at this time of year. Fingers crossed for more progress in the right direction.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 17, 2016, 11:18:06 am
No Strava upload for the 15th (the Tadcaster/York/King's Lynn day).

Anyone in contact with Steve to let him know?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: andyoxon on January 17, 2016, 12:46:35 pm
Can someone clarify the actual highest year mileage ridden by Tommy Godwin?  I gather of course that he set a calendar year record of 75065 miles, but then went on to get a 12mth greater record of 77001 mls(?) from later in the year during the calendar year record attempt to the following year 1940 (when riding towards 100Kmiles)...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: red marley on January 17, 2016, 12:50:39 pm
There is no retrospective 'find the 365 days in which you rode the most' record. To bring it up now and compare it with all the previous records that required those 365 days to be nominated in advance may have the side effect of diminishing Kurt's record.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: drgannet on January 17, 2016, 12:52:28 pm
But if you are asking the question who has ridden the furthest in any 365 day period that we know of...

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=87730.msg1800498#msg1800498 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=87730.msg1800498#msg1800498)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: andyoxon on January 17, 2016, 01:05:41 pm
Ah yes, fair enough - record for 'year nominated in advance'... had not fully appreciated this. 

Thanks drg hadn't seen that thread.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 17, 2016, 01:48:30 pm
A 16.1mph average by Steve yesterday, very good going in these conditions.  Keep it up fella!
Does Strava just list moving average?

And does the IvanScience give overall average e.g. about 13mph for yesterday shown here:
http://www.soretween.altervista.org/TeethGrinder/tg381.jpg

(I rarely look at Strava. One reason is that whenever I look at the 1YTT site it is missing several of the last week's Strava days. )
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Mikes on January 17, 2016, 02:17:04 pm
At the risk of duplicating earlier threads my understanding of the Godwin year record is that he was riding to Cycling (now Cycling Weekly)'s rules and verification. The Year was specified by Cycling as a calendar year. The reason for specifying the year in advance was presumably so that a verification process could be put in place in advance. In Godwin's case that process appears to have continued throughout his 100,000 mile record.  So he was not riding to UMCA rules but he does appear, if the Cycling verification is accepted, to have ridden more than 77,000 miles in a period of 365 consecutive days. Whether you describe that as a 'record' obviously depends on how you define that term but, and this is a matter of opinion, it seems just as appropriate (or perhaps just as inappropriate....) to compare a UMCA HAMR with Godwin's higher number as it is to compare it with his 1939 total.

I have no wish to 'diminish' Kurt's ride, which I would interpret as the initial UMCA HAMR, nor would I wish to diminish Godwin's records, all of which seem extraordinary.

As for the current record attempts, setting aside the definition of the most relevant record, it seems that a dedicated supporting vehicle and crew is a common factor that had a hugely significant effect on both Godwin's and Kurt's rides that seem absent from the current attempts.  Without that I think Steve in particular will struggle to get close to the 220 miles a day he'll need for most of the rest this attempt.  But good luck to him anyway.  I hope at least he's enjoying most of the cycling.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: jochta on January 17, 2016, 02:29:09 pm
A 16.1mph average by Steve yesterday, very good going in these conditions.  Keep it up fella!
Does Strava just list moving average?

And does the IvanScience give overall average e.g. about 13mph for yesterday shown here:
http://www.soretween.altervista.org/TeethGrinder/tg381.jpg

(I rarely look at Strava. One reason is that whenever I look at the 1YTT site it is missing several of the last week's Strava days. )

According to Strava and the extended stats plugin...

Moving average was 28.4km/h (17.6mph)

Overall average was 25.9km/h (16.1mph)

He was moving for 90.0% of the time.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Arry-R on January 17, 2016, 03:45:07 pm
 I hope at least he's enjoying most of the cycling.
[/quote]



He'd not miss it for the world!  ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ham on January 17, 2016, 08:51:39 pm
Well, we know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the antagonism from team Steve to yacf is derived from the antipathy of Hoppo, the team leader, despite the association of many of the helpers (and indeed, Steve) with this forum. To have cut off the team from the benefit of plugging into the substantial goodwill here and potential for assistance is a mark of piss-poor leadership. We know that there has been internal team division, again a mark of poor leadership (can't say piss-poor but it sure isn't "good") The only way this could be gainsayed is if the strategy had some discernable benefit, which it does not. His publicising of the disqualification of Bruce is a mark of piss-poor judgement.

Now it is clear that however good the leadership it wouldn't have stopped the moped from running into Steve, but I reckon had Hoppo been up to the job there might  have been a possibility of a better outcome. Maybe someone who knew when and who to get help. It really isn't clear whether changing the structure now would help, but if I was one of the helpers I 'd be thinking about getting together with the others to see if something better could be done so that everyone's efforts had the best chance of success.

As I said before in far more diffident terms, leadership really does make a difference, it's clear that Team Steve lacks effective leadership. Being a world class endurance cyclist does not automatically make a leader.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 17, 2016, 09:06:33 pm
I don't believe that Ham, there are several on here that continue to be able to support Steve.

I don't think there's any "cut off". There's a clear recent (within the last week) example of a yacf-er helping Steve with a lift (Lowestoft to Tadcaster) despite the implied anismosity.

You make it sound like all of yacf has been cut off from helping.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ham on January 17, 2016, 10:05:12 pm
I don't believe that Ham, there are several on here that continue to be able to support Steve.

I don't think there's any "cut off". There's a clear recent (within the last week) example of a yacf-er helping Steve with a lift (Lowestoft to Tadcaster) despite the implied anismosity.

You make it sound like all of yacf has been cut off from helping.

Sorry, but I was quite careful to say that there are helpers here, I'd go as far as to say this is the largest single concentration of helpers and potential helpers. I don't know the exact numbers but many who have and continue to give of their time are regular denziens here.

What I am saying is that an effective team leader would have put any personal prejudices aside and made better use of the goodwill and potential assistance that could have been garnered here for the good of the effort, that is all.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Jack_P on January 17, 2016, 10:14:59 pm
Hasn't Steve said he doesn't want to be paced by groups, due to the additional risks it involves?  I'd imagine this is doubly so in periods of shitty weather.

Ok forget the group riding.
 I went back there today for a couple of ice and snow free runs comfortably at almost 18mph, I wasn't hammering; Just for reference it was part of my 11th century this year, I'm not exactly fresh.
Right now with 144 miles for today on the Ivantech and stuck at Kimbolton at 10pm that looks fun  :facepalm:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 18, 2016, 07:08:11 am
According to Strava and the extended stats plugin...

Moving average was 28.4km/h (17.6mph)

Overall average was 25.9km/h (16.1mph)

He was moving for 90.0% of the time.
I have looked at Strava (I am not a premium member) and the tracking and the average says 20.9 km/h which is 13mph - where do these faster speeds come from. The evidence I can see does not support these speeds.

I hope they are correct because it would show a significant speed up and that is what is required.

BB
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: orraloon on January 18, 2016, 07:33:25 am
Is there anywhere published roles and responsibilities of Steve's support team?  Haven't found such on OYTT site.

As per posts ^ above, I raised an eyebrow at the tenor of the CH posts about Berkeley.  Cannot see it the role of a 'team leader' to be finger pointing at others.  And given the seeming lack of proper project management in this attempt, the team leader is doing what?

[Edit.  Just revisited 'The Team' page on OYTT site.  I see the one liners.  I come from a project management background;  if it was me I'd want to see more definition than a simple 'overseeing the whole challenge'.  What does that mean day to day, week to week?]
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ham on January 18, 2016, 07:41:20 am
Is there anywhere published roles and responsibilities of Steve's support team?  Haven't found such on OYTT site.



Do remember that the "team" are all volunteers,who cheerfully (<=assumed) do what they can in the time they are able to. I'd reckon many go beyond the time they have, and some won't live up to their promises. That's the nature of the beast. Whatever else, I am making no implied or actual criticism of those people trying to help. Even Hoppo, who I am sure will have done a lot. But he isn't a good leader, and a good leader might improve matters for everyone involved in the effort.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: ElyDave on January 18, 2016, 08:24:37 am
There's a difference between leadership and management and both are needed. Look at English rugby under Clive Woodward, he was never the best player, and not the best coach but he had the organisational vision and the management skills to put an effective team in place to deliver that.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Justin(e) on January 18, 2016, 08:37:43 am
Well, we know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the antagonism from team Steve to yacf is derived from the antipathy of Hoppo, the team leader ...

Why?

I don't get it.   Maybe it is a self fulfilling prophesy, there do seem to be some negative remarks about Hoppo now - but that is only because of a lack of communication.

What is the reasoning for a long distance UK cyclist staying away from this site?  Was he one of those affiliated to "he who must not be named" from ACF?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 18, 2016, 08:51:37 am
I have looked at Strava (I am not a premium member) and the tracking and the average says 20.9 km/h which is 13mph - where do these faster speeds come from. The evidence I can see does not support these speeds.

The tracking under-reads distance (because it is guessing the route between the infrequent live tracking points) and only measures elapsed time.

As an example, here's the 16th Jan on the tracker: http://www.soretween.altervista.org/TeethGrinder/tg381.jpg (286km at 20.9kph)

286km/20.9kph = 13h 41m

This fits with the tracker's first and last live tracking points of 9:39:05 to 23:21:05 (13h 42m).

And here's the GPX file that was uploaded to Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/472063940 (322.2km with moving time of 12:27:50, elapsed time of 13:49:02).

322.2 / 13h49m02 = 23.32kph (based on elapsed time)
322.2 / 12h27m50 = 25.85kph (based on moving time)

No idea how Strava is managing to pull 28.4kph out of those figures.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Frank9755 on January 18, 2016, 08:55:36 am
Well, we know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the antagonism from team Steve to yacf is derived from the antipathy of Hoppo, the team leader ...

Why?

I don't get it.   Maybe it is a self fulfilling prophesy, there do seem to be some negative remarks about Hoppo now - but that is only because of a lack of communication.

What is the reasoning for a long distance UK cyclist staying away from this site?  Was he one of those affiliated to "he who must not be named" from ACF?

I doubt it is that.  I had assumed that it stemmed from his encounter with the unique charm of MattC when they had a disagreement over lights on the 24hour TT a few years ago.  But I think he doesn't like forums in general as he also made a bit of a fool of himself on the TT forum (by complaining about results for a 12-hour not being out immediately) and now avoids that too.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: jochta on January 18, 2016, 09:03:28 am
I have looked at Strava (I am not a premium member) and the tracking and the average says 20.9 km/h which is 13mph - where do these faster speeds come from. The evidence I can see does not support these speeds.

The tracking under-reads distance (because it is guessing the route between the infrequent live tracking points) and only measures elapsed time.

As an example, here's the 16th Jan on the tracker: http://www.soretween.altervista.org/TeethGrinder/tg381.jpg (286km at 20.9kph)

286km/20.9kph = 13h 41m

This fits with the tracker's first and last live tracking points of 9:39:05 to 23:21:05 (13h 42m).

And here's the GPX file that was uploaded to Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/472063940 (322.2km with moving time of 12:27:50, elapsed time of 13:49:02).

322.2 / 13h49m02 = 23.32kph (based on elapsed time)
322.2 / 12h27m50 = 25.85kph (based on moving time)

No idea how Strava is managing to pull 28.4kph out of those figures.

Yes those figures you have are correct. I picked the wrong one. 28.4 km/h is the 75% Quartile Speed.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: fboab on January 18, 2016, 09:33:22 am
What is the reasoning for a long distance UK cyclist staying away from this site?  Was he one of those affiliated to "he who must not be named" from ACF?
Hoppo isn't an audaxer, he's a TTer who specialises in longer distance events.
I've met him two or three times and nothing he's said or done has altered my initial opinion of him.


[sweeping generalisation]TTers tend not to be the cozy lefty middle class smug who largely haunt this place[/sweeping generalisation]
[disclaimer]Lurking on the TT forum was almost enough to dissuade me from racing[/disclaimer]
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Frank9755 on January 18, 2016, 10:17:05 am
He's not even really a TTer - seen as almost as much of an outsider there as here.

Your sweeping generalisation is an interesting observation!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hattyfatner on January 18, 2016, 10:52:18 am
Morning All,

Could someone provide a brief summary of the status of the various record attempts as I've rather lost the plot on this and don't have time to trawl back ??? Many thanks
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ham on January 18, 2016, 10:58:44 am
Kurt has been an' gon' an' dun it
Steve is still doin' it. Maybe accordin' to sum
Kajsa is doin' something different
Bruce don' giv a stuff an is doin it too
Miles gave up

there you go
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hattyfatner on January 18, 2016, 11:06:48 am
Kurt has been an' gon' an' dun it
Steve is still doin' it. Maybe accordin' to sum
Kajsa is doin' something different
Bruce don' giv a stuff an is doin it too
Miles gave up

there you go
Ok, is Steve on his second or third restart?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ian H on January 18, 2016, 11:08:01 am
His first restart.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hattyfatner on January 18, 2016, 11:11:13 am
His first restart.

When was the attempt restarted?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: rafletcher on January 18, 2016, 11:15:30 am
164 days ago  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Freya on January 18, 2016, 11:21:27 am
& it was Kristin who shot J.R.

Sorry that should probably have had a spoiler alert.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hattyfatner on January 18, 2016, 11:27:13 am
164 days ago  :thumbsup:
Say no more

Sort of lost track with all the negativity 
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: geraldc on January 18, 2016, 11:29:46 am
Alas poor iron ox, how quickly you're forgotten

Kurt has been an' gon' an' dun it
Steve is still doin' it. Maybe accordin' to sum
Kajsa is doin' something different
Bruce don' giv a stuff an is doin it too
Miles gave up

there you go
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 18, 2016, 12:05:20 pm
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.
It's the promotional aspect that Steve has benefited from, Idai has been instrumental in that as well. I would have been perfectly happy with a lower profile approach, more akin to the level of publicity that the 24 gets, there's been a bit of an expectation/reality mismatch for me.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: rob on January 18, 2016, 12:09:18 pm
Well, we know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the antagonism from team Steve to yacf is derived from the antipathy of Hoppo, the team leader ...

Why?

I don't get it.   Maybe it is a self fulfilling prophesy, there do seem to be some negative remarks about Hoppo now - but that is only because of a lack of communication.

What is the reasoning for a long distance UK cyclist staying away from this site?  Was he one of those affiliated to "he who must not be named" from ACF?

I doubt it is that.  I had assumed that it stemmed from his encounter with the unique charm of MattC when they had a disagreement over lights on the 24hour TT a few years ago.  But I think he doesn't like forums in general as he also made a bit of a fool of himself on the TT forum (by complaining about results for a 12-hour not being out immediately) and now avoids that too.

He was on there again the other day as his 12hr distance was wrong on his long distance BAR certificate.   Tim Carpenter has stood down from looking after that competition, though, so I'm not sure who he can complain to now.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: clarion on January 18, 2016, 12:18:57 pm
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.
It's the promotional aspect that Steve has benefited from, Idai has been instrumental in that as well. I would have been perfectly happy with a lower profile approach, more akin to the level of publicity that the 24 gets, there's been a bit of an expectation/reality mismatch for me.
Lower profile?! :o  I would have thought that a bit more promotion/information/transparency/PR would have been a lot better, and reduced the level of rumblings.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 18, 2016, 12:22:06 pm
I suspect ESL meant lower profile with regards to mainstream media and higher profile with regards to supporters.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Frank9755 on January 18, 2016, 12:36:56 pm
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.

People misunderstand Hoppo by thinking he's a top level long distance time triallist! He isn't, not in the same league as the people you mention. 
On the odd time he's entered, he has come in, perhaps, the top 20 at the nationals, not been threatening the podium.
That's still a decent achievement and he's a gutsy rider (and I was really impressed by his ride in a 100 a week after a 12 hour last year when he went under 4 hours while I was struggling badly attempting the same), but he's not in, or close to, the top class.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LMT on January 18, 2016, 12:42:14 pm
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.

People misunderstand Hoppo by thinking he's a top level long distance time triallist! He isn't, not in the same league as the people you mention. 
On the odd time he's entered, he has come in, perhaps, the top 20 at the nationals, not been threatening the podium.
That's still a decent achievement and he's a gutsy rider (and I was really impressed by his ride in a 100 a week after a 12 hour last year when he went under 4 hours while I was struggling badly attempting the same), but he's not in, or close to, the top class.

Hmm, depends on what is relative?

In terms of distance for sure, there are people that have covered more than him on a bike given a set time limit. But the man is tenacious, that there can be no doubt, after all he has done RAAM which does deserve respect imo.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 18, 2016, 12:55:42 pm
I suspect ESL meant lower profile with regards to mainstream media and higher profile with regards to supporters.

I replied to an early enquiry about doing some filming of Steve thus, edited to remove identity obviously. Steve started to get mainstream interest, so I just filmed him when our paths crossed, as I'm about 200 miles from the action.

Quote
What are you wanting from any filming? Is it to provide publicity, or to give some feedback to the donors?

I'm concerned mainly with recording events from the standpoint of someone actively involved in them. So my focus accepts that people can ride 200 miles a day, for a number of days. What's interesting is how that effort can be sustained, both physically and emotionally.

That interest also extends to the way support is provided. The support on YACF  seems to be independent of any publicity considerations. Is it possible for this record to be achieved within a sealed world, like the Andy Wilkinson record? With only those who really care about it being interested.
We got a lot of satisfaction in being there to film that record. I don't feel the need to show Wilko's 'journey' to that record, because we know what's involved, and it's for an audience that understands.
If you want to produce a recruitment video for Audax, or to satisfy sponsors, then the focus changes. And it's more up to you to give me a brief.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Frank9755 on January 18, 2016, 01:09:20 pm
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.

People misunderstand Hoppo by thinking he's a top level long distance time triallist! He isn't, not in the same league as the people you mention. 
On the odd time he's entered, he has come in, perhaps, the top 20 at the nationals, not been threatening the podium.
That's still a decent achievement and he's a gutsy rider (and I was really impressed by his ride in a 100 a week after a 12 hour last year when he went under 4 hours while I was struggling badly attempting the same), but he's not in, or close to, the top class.

Hmm, depends on what is relative?

In terms of distance for sure, there are people that have covered more than him on a bike given a set time limit. But the man is tenacious, that there can be no doubt, after all he has done RAAM which does deserve respect imo.

Sure, he's achieved other things outside time trialling. He's also done PBP.
But even in things like RAAM, he was (as are most of us) a participant, not a potential winner. 
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: rafletcher on January 18, 2016, 01:22:46 pm
But the man is tenacious, that there can be no doubt, after all he has done RAAM which does deserve respect imo.

A fact you're unlikely to forget if you need to email him....    hopporaam2005@googlemail.co.uk   :)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 18, 2016, 01:23:55 pm
I think people misunderstand Hoppo. He arrived on the TT scene at a time when the long-distance royalty were easing out of sight. Wilko had won everything, and had been coached early in his career by Keith Boardman, Chris's dad. Gethin Butler was the grandson of a 24 hour winner, and son of a noted ex-pro and race promoter.
Hoppo came onto the scene as a brash self-promoter, in a world where everyone defers to performance, and expects their heroes to be modest. He made a lot of being the first UK finisher of RAAM, and has never been afraid to put himself forward in order to finance RAAM rides.
It's the promotional aspect that Steve has benefited from, Idai has been instrumental in that as well. I would have been perfectly happy with a lower profile approach, more akin to the level of publicity that the 24 gets, there's been a bit of an expectation/reality mismatch for me.
Lower profile?! :o  I would have thought that a bit more promotion/information/transparency/PR would have been a lot better, and reduced the level of rumblings.

Hoppo may be a great rider, but that's really irrelevant in the context of being, if this is indeed what he is, Steve's 'team manager'. There's no requirement for a band's manager to be able to sing or play, or a bank's manager to be able to count (ooh, ouch!), or an airline's manager to be able to fly. I'm not sure what responsibilities he has taken on on Steve's behalf, but it sure doesn't include riding a bike! So discussions of his cycling ability are a total red herring.

His revelation of Bruce's issues with UCMA seem a bit unnecessary, and are also irrelevant to Steve's effort, so it would probably better for him to have resisted comment until UCMA made their own public announcement. It's a distraction - as we are proving.

As for Steve's averages, Saturday's Strava record shows a distance of 322.2km, ridden over a moving time of 12:27:50, and an elapsed time of 13:49:02. That's a moving speed of 25.85kmh (16.05mph) and an overall average (the one that counts) of 23.32kmh (14.48mph). Not as fast as I'd first though, but I think it's an improvement on what he's been recently achieving.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Frank9755 on January 18, 2016, 01:55:23 pm
Hoppo may be a great rider

I know it's not the point you are making, but he's not!  He's a reasonably good rider.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: La Tortue on January 18, 2016, 02:25:59 pm
Seems the year record challenge has gone to hell in a handbasket.  Steve's gutsy attempt is now rewarded with parts of his fan base trashing his methods, crew, and overall chances.  Facts are he is still in the game and positioned to make one heck of a comeback.  Meanwhile, the Kiwi figures he  can just tell us how many miles he rode 365 days from January 1 and that is good enough.   Turmoil and bickering has dwarfed the Challenge itself.  Gone is the time one can track a riders progress  or perhaps catch a video update on the daily rigors of the ride.   Apparently, Kurt has set the bar for more than just the number of miles to ride.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: zigzag on January 18, 2016, 02:26:22 pm
the only time i raced in the same tt (10mi) with hoppo was on the 1st of jan 2015 when Steve was starting out his 1ytt. his time was about 1min better, but we were on very different bikes; hoppo's time was around the middle of the finishers list, mine at the bottom third iirc. i agree with Frank9755 comparing him to an average/competitive club rider specialising in (and doing a lot of) long distance events.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LMT on January 18, 2016, 02:42:24 pm
Seems the year record challenge has gone to hell in a handbasket.  Steve's gutsy attempt is now rewarded with parts of his fan base trashing his methods, crew, and overall chances.  Facts are he is still in the game and positioned to make one heck of a comeback.  Meanwhile, the Kiwi figures he  can just tell us how many miles he rode 365 days from January 1 and that is good enough.   Turmoil and bickering has dwarfed the Challenge itself.  Gone is the time one can track a riders progress  or perhaps catch a video update on the daily rigors of the ride.   Apparently, Kurt has set the bar for more than just the number of miles to ride.

Hyperbole after hyperbole don't help anyone.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 18, 2016, 02:57:23 pm
Hoppo may be a great rider, but that's really irrelevant in the context of being, if this is indeed what he is, Steve's 'team manager'. There's no requirement for a band's manager to be able to sing or play, or a bank's manager to be able to count (ooh, ouch!), or an airline's manager to be able to fly. I'm not sure what responsibilities he has taken on on Steve's behalf, but it sure doesn't include riding a bike! So discussions of his cycling ability are a total red herring.

Agreed.
Except that it was probably Steve's high opinion of his cycling palmares that got him the job.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Peter on January 18, 2016, 03:01:48 pm
Slightly OT but only slightly:  these days there's no requirement for a band's members to be able to sing or play, either.  Steve clearly does not fall into that category!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Chris S on January 18, 2016, 03:18:05 pm
Seems the year record challenge has gone to hell in a handbasket.  Steve's gutsy attempt is now rewarded with parts of his fan base trashing his methods, crew, and overall chances.  Facts are he is still in the game and positioned to make one heck of a comeback.  Meanwhile, the Kiwi figures he  can just tell us how many miles he rode 365 days from January 1 and that is good enough.   Turmoil and bickering has dwarfed the Challenge itself. Gone is the time one can track a riders progress  or perhaps catch a video update on the daily rigors of the ride.   Apparently, Kurt has set the bar for more than just the number of miles to ride.

Not at all. Have you not seen Kajsa's video clips on Facebook? She's got a live feed too  :thumbsup:.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: rafletcher on January 18, 2016, 03:27:02 pm
And she stops to take photos during her rides. Accessible and engaging.  But then she's not defined by her cycling, and I doubt she'll ever do an audax.  I do like the link to streetview too.

https://www.followmychallenge.com/live/ayearinthesaddle/

http://www.ayearinthesaddle.com/#!social-media/c1kkv
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 18, 2016, 03:37:00 pm
Hoppo may be a great rider, but that's really irrelevant in the context of being, if this is indeed what he is, Steve's 'team manager'. There's no requirement for a band's manager to be able to sing or play, or a bank's manager to be able to count (ooh, ouch!), or an airline's manager to be able to fly. I'm not sure what responsibilities he has taken on on Steve's behalf, but it sure doesn't include riding a bike! So discussions of his cycling ability are a total red herring.

Agreed.
Except that it was probably Steve's high opinion of his cycling palmares that got him the job.

Were they associated before last year? I'm pretty sure the only time Hoppo rides is actually in competition; he proudly states that all his training is on the turbo (a position with which I can sympathise in this weather!), and I'm not aware of him ever having anything to do with Audax. I know it's a tangent, but how did he come to be associated with Steve's HAM'R attempt?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: La Tortue on January 18, 2016, 03:38:26 pm

Not at all. Have you not seen Kajsa's video clips on Facebook? She's got a live feed too  :thumbsup:.
Up to this point I haven't been interested in the women's record but with the current circus atmosphere surrounding the  men's challenge maybe it's time to check  it out.  Some fresh air will be  nice.  Thanks for the links.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 18, 2016, 03:47:54 pm
Were they associated before last year? I'm pretty sure the only time Hoppo rides is actually in competition; he proudly states that all his training is on the turbo (a position with which I can sympathise in this weather!), and I'm not aware of him ever having anything to do with Audax. I know it's a tangent, but how did he come to be associated with Steve's HAM'R attempt?

Hoppo has been around Audax for quite a while, mostly as training for past RAAMs. For a period, he liked getting the most distance for the York Dart.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ian H on January 18, 2016, 03:49:26 pm
Hoppo may be a great rider, but that's really irrelevant in the context of being, if this is indeed what he is, Steve's 'team manager'. There's no requirement for a band's manager to be able to sing or play, or a bank's manager to be able to count (ooh, ouch!), or an airline's manager to be able to fly. I'm not sure what responsibilities he has taken on on Steve's behalf, but it sure doesn't include riding a bike! So discussions of his cycling ability are a total red herring.

Agreed.
Except that it was probably Steve's high opinion of his cycling palmares that got him the job.

Were they associated before last year? I'm pretty sure the only time Hoppo rides is actually in competition; he proudly states that all his training is on the turbo (a position with which I can sympathise in this weather!), and I'm not aware of him ever having anything to do with Audax. I know it's a tangent, but how did he come to be associated with Steve's HAM'R attempt?

Hoppo on a bike. (http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/chris-hopkinson)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Frank9755 on January 18, 2016, 03:53:49 pm
Were they associated before last year? I'm pretty sure the only time Hoppo rides is actually in competition; he proudly states that all his training is on the turbo (a position with which I can sympathise in this weather!), and I'm not aware of him ever having anything to do with Audax. I know it's a tangent, but how did he come to be associated with Steve's HAM'R attempt?

ISTR from last year that he was appointed by UMCA so that he could be their man on the ground, at quite a late stage in the process, possibly after Steve had started riding.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 18, 2016, 04:46:48 pm
Hoppo's relative standing isn't important. It takes at least £20,000 to enter RAAM, by the time that you've complied with all the UMCA stuff, and Chris has shown that he can raise that sort of money a number of times. In fact the lower the placings he achieves, the better his fundraising  skills look by contrast. Last time he was down to selling off some of his musical instruments.

The growth of the looser 'Transcontinental' formats is undermining the appeal of RAAM. There's no particular reason that the Year Record can't be done like that.

I stopped off at Hewitts in Leyland on the way back from the shops, and had a short word with Gethin Butler. He wasn't impressed that the rules allow drafting, and he felt that enough speed to ride around 10 hours a day was essential, to allow time for recovery.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: IJL on January 18, 2016, 04:59:42 pm
Quote
I stopped off at Hewitts in Leyland on the way back from the shops, and had a short word with Gethin Butler. He wasn't impressed that the rules allow drafting, and he felt that enough speed to ride around 10 hours a day was essential, to allow time for recovery.

I suspect allowing drafting is a pragmatic decision based on the difficulty of policing it. 
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 18, 2016, 05:14:44 pm
That was just his initial reaction to how the new record had been achieved, I pointed out that the original records grew out of the mileater tradition, and would have included club runs.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 18, 2016, 06:52:14 pm
I'm puzzled why there still is no data on the UMCA site for Steve for Jan 12. I thought data had to be upoaded there within 24 hours. Or have I missed something blindingly obvious...
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Freya on January 18, 2016, 06:58:45 pm
I'm puzzled why there still is no data on the UMCA site for Steve for Jan 12. I thought data had to be upoaded there within 24 hours. Or have I missed something blindingly obvious...
asn't that the day he broke his wheel, so continued late into the night. Without Jo's help I am slighly losing track of what he achieved this week From Strava it looks like
M 11th 188.7
T 12th  130.9
W13th  225.7
T 14th ?
F15th 193.9
S16th 200.2
S17th 180.8

Which leaves Thursday missing
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 18, 2016, 07:30:52 pm
On the UMCA site it has:

Day   Date      Miles
156   2016-01-10   196
157   2016-01-11   188.7
158   
159   2016-01-13   225.8
160   
161   2016-01-15   336.6
162   2016-01-16   200.2

Day 161 clearly looks like mileage for two days, so that would account for day 160 being blank.

If Freya's right that the missing day is 130 miles then Steve's averaged 182.5 miles per day in the last 7 days.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 18, 2016, 08:31:49 pm
felt that enough speed to ride around 10 hours a day was essential, to allow time for recovery.
That means riding at 20mph  :o
The lack of recovery time Steve has will catch up with him sometime, I think.

BB
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 18, 2016, 08:34:36 pm
felt that enough speed to ride around 10 hours a day was essential, to allow time for recovery.
That means riding at 20mph  :o
The lack of recovery time Steve has will catch up with him sometime, I think.

August 7th 2016?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Arry-R on January 18, 2016, 09:08:21 pm


August 7th 2016?
[/quote



 :thumbsup:]
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: PAC on January 18, 2016, 09:11:10 pm
Reckon he'll go for a gentle recovery ride :thumbsup:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Charlie Boy on January 18, 2016, 09:28:25 pm
On the UMCA site it has:

Day   Date      Miles
156   2016-01-10   196
157   2016-01-11   188.7
158   
159   2016-01-13   225.8
160   
161   2016-01-15   336.6
162   2016-01-16   200.2

Day 161 clearly looks like mileage for two days, so that would account for day 160 being blank.

If Freya's right that the missing day is 130 miles then Steve's averaged 182.5 miles per day in the last 7 days.

It's a bit lower than that Wobbly if you count yesterday...
189.8
0
131.7
227
195
201.37
180.6
Ave 160.78

Ave January to date 176.
Figures from Strava.

Both of which make depressing reading.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: simonp on January 19, 2016, 12:25:38 am
160? How do you get that? There is a zero entry in your list which might be why. That should be 131 miles I think. I believe 11th-17th should be about 180mpd average.

 UMCA values seem to differ from Strava. Privacy zones or something else?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 19, 2016, 07:15:29 am
felt that enough speed to ride around 10 hours a day was essential, to allow time for recovery.
That means riding at 20mph  :o
The lack of recovery time Steve has will catch up with him sometime, I think.

August 7th 2016?

I hope you are right Mr GreenBank  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 09:37:13 am
The missing Tadcaster to King's Lynn ride (from Jan 14th) is now on Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/471278127
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 19, 2016, 09:50:03 am
Strava now has:-

M 11th 188.7
T 12th  130.9
W13th  225.7
T 14th 180.7 (appears on Friday due to going just past midnight)
F 15th 193.9
S 16th 200.2
S 17th 180.8
M 18th 186.0 (appears on Tuesday due to going just past midnight)

That's 185.9 miles per day over those 8 days, including 4 hours lost to a broken bike, and he's already got another 22 miles in the bank as they were done last night before going to sleep in York (yesterday's track ends at midnight near Snaith). Include those and it's ~188.6 miles per day.

The last 4 days (including the extra 22 miles) is 195.7 miles per day.

Encouraging.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Charlie Boy on January 19, 2016, 01:15:07 pm
160? How do you get that? There is a zero entry in your list which might be why. That should be 131 miles I think. I believe 11th-17th should be about 180mpd average.

 UMCA values seem to differ from Strava. Privacy zones or something else?

Strava now has:-

M 11th 188.7
T 12th  130.9
W13th  225.7
T 14th 180.7 (appears on Friday due to going just past midnight)
F 15th 193.9
S 16th 200.2
S 17th 180.8
M 18th 186.0 (appears on Tuesday due to going just past midnight)

That's 185.9 miles per day over those 8 days, including 4 hours lost to a broken bike, and he's already got another 22 miles in the bank as they were done last night before going to sleep in York (yesterday's track ends at midnight near Snaith). Include those and it's ~188.6 miles per day.

The last 4 days (including the extra 22 miles) is 195.7 miles per day.

Encouraging.

Indeed. Glad to have got it wrong!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Charlie Boy on January 19, 2016, 01:54:01 pm
Despite the abysmal weather and bike problems, Steve is only 210 miles behind schedule. This is Good News.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 01:56:48 pm
I've tracked down a whole undead army of 'zombie factoids', via an Australian newspaper archive site. Bruce Small PTY, Sturmey Archer's local agent sent out lots of press releases about the Year Record. Here's a story from August.

Quote
YEAR'S MILEAGE RECORD.
Bennett-Godwin Duel Develops
Organised Pacing.
Enlightening' news concerning the
astounding daily runs of Bernard Ben
nett and Tommy Godwin both of
whom are attacking Australian Ossic
Nicholson's world's mileage record of
62,'657.6 miles, is contained in a special
report * extracted from "English
Cycling" and forwarded, by the Coven
try ?.Office of Bruce Small Pty. Ltd.
"Both men have utilized pace, either
where it could be arranged or on
roads known to have a fair amount of
lorry traffic. Last week in seven days
(July 7th to 14th) Godwin covered
1,969 miles, making his total 38,47£
miles. Charles Davey, the well known
trainer-manager, is now'in charge of
Godwin and promises to intensify his
.riding programme .with regular car
assistance; Bennett covex*ed lt668 mile?
riri six days to July 13th and his total
to that' date is 37,531 miles. He is ad
vised and - trained by Rene Menzies
(who attacked the record .in 1937).
Some days Menzies accompanies him
on a bicycle and on others gives him
food from a motor cycle and side-car."
This explains the high figures ob
tained with assistance which was not.
availably to the Australian during hisFix this text
marvellous efforts. At "the same time,
however it gives complete confidence
that Nicholson, granted similar organ
ised pacing -and help with organised
feeding, will pass whatever figures the
Englishmen aggregate, as we . now
have "a feasible explanation of the
higher daily average of the two con
tenders.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/78154181?searchTerm=Tommy%20Godwin&searchLimits=

There's a handy link to all the Australian stories, which seem to derive from Bruce Small PTY, and hence Sturmey Archer.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=Tommy+Godwin
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 19, 2016, 02:04:43 pm
Bruce Small was Oppy's manager pretty much throughout his career, including on-the-road support during his PBP win and most of his records. Bruce also was the BSA importer for Australia, owner of Malvern Star at the time and later on Lord Mayor of the Gold Coast.

I like the mention of a fair amount of lorry traffic.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 02:07:24 pm
They'd only be 'zombie' lorries, so of no benefit.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 02:18:33 pm
Actually it was Kemsley and co PTY who were the Australian SA importers. Bruce Small handled the rival Cyclo gears, so a competitor. The relevant edition of 'English Cycling'  that's quoted would be the best source.

(http://cdn.ipernity.com/139/04/35/28350435.6d3d2c9a.560.jpg?r2)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 19, 2016, 02:34:01 pm
Bruce Small was the "Leader of the opposition" He was Nicholson's manager and sponsor. He did everything possible to discredit the various British attempts. Including lying about Nicholson's true mileage figures at the end of 1937 to give him an edge on Menzies.

Good Google-fu, but not conclusive evidence that Godwin and Bennett were accompanied by teams of riders every day. As I maintain, they took whatever advantages they could such as lorries, other riders, tailwinds etc.. But in the main were paced by their managers as that article alludes to. I cannot stress enough the importance of BALANCE when looking into this history. Random snippets of internet do not tell the full story. Reading across the entire press of the time, the Raleigh archives and accounts(searching for payments) and family interviews give a broader view of what actually happened. This is what it took me years to get to the bottom of it, not ten minutes of internet search and a bit of cut and paste. The real story shows two riders fighting each other for miles using  everything from sleep deprivation to drafting to get them, both goaded on by their relative team managers. THIS is what pacing means. The final judgement on ending it specifically mentioned the team managers retreating.

The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?




Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 02:42:40 pm
Which is why we need to see the relevant article from Cycling.

There's an interesting insight into the profile of distance cycling in Australia in the 1930s in the story of Valda Unthank, who seems to have a claim on the ladies week record.

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/560f1941e4b0e75bc493a695/t/560f1d3ee4b0eb177e2d7b85/1443833664196/valda-unthank-womens-cycling1.jpg?format=750w)

There's a great picture of her eating in a gas showroom window during her week long ride.

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/560f1941e4b0e75bc493a695/t/560f1d1ae4b0eb177e2d7572/1443833537553/ossie-nicholson-cycling.jpg?format=750w)

http://www.veloaficionado.com/blog/australias-long-distance-record-breaking-cyclist-valda-unthank
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 19, 2016, 02:57:57 pm
Which is why we need to see the relevant article from Cycling.

Or maybe even read the book. There's more than just one article. I even tracked down HH England's family to try and get to the bottom of it, sadly he left this world without leaving his diaries behind.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ham on January 19, 2016, 03:02:59 pm
Which is why we need to see the relevant article from Cycling.

There's an interesting insight into the profile of distance cycling in Australia in the 1930s in the story of Valda Unthank, who seems to have a claim on the ladies week record.

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/560f1941e4b0e75bc493a695/t/560f1d3ee4b0eb177e2d7b85/1443833664196/valda-unthank-womens-cycling1.jpg?format=750w)

There's a great picture of her eating in a gas showroom window during her week long ride.

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/560f1941e4b0e75bc493a695/t/560f1d1ae4b0eb177e2d7572/1443833537553/ossie-nicholson-cycling.jpg?format=750w)

http://www.veloaficionado.com/blog/australias-long-distance-record-breaking-cyclist-valda-unthank

Bet nobody thanked her properly.

Interesting that The Godwin (205 per day) appears.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 03:10:17 pm


The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?

I suggest you research Charles Holland, Bert James and Sid Ferris. Holland's call-up in September 1939 coincides with the withdrawal of pacing.

Quote
1938 was the year Holland attempted professional place-to-place records on the road, at that time the only way that a professional rider could publicise his sponsor, there still being no massed racing on the road and professionals not being allowed to ride amateur time-trials. In June, riding for Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer, Holland broke his first Road Records Association (RRA) record, knocking 12 minutes off the time of his rival, Frank Southall, for Liverpool to Edinburgh, completing the 210 miles in 10 hours.

In August he narrowly beat the record for Land's End to London but it was not accepted as a new RRA record because it did not improve on the old one by more than a minute. Two months later, he completed the 287 miles from Land's End to London again, racing at 21 mph through hours of rain and suffering four punctures but, knocking 25 minutes off the record.

Holland's professional career ended when Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. He was called up to join the Royal Corps of Signals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_(cyclist)#Road_records
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 19, 2016, 03:14:16 pm
Actually it was Kemsley and co PTY who were the Australian SA importers. Bruce Small handled the rival Cyclo gears, so a competitor.

Hence the Cyclo Oppy derailleur
http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Cyclo_Oppy_derailleur.html
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 19, 2016, 03:17:39 pm
Do you REALLY think these pedigree riders turned out to draft Godwin on a daily basis for 12 hours for nowt ..and that it went unreported?

I think I'll call it a day there. I prefer facts to supposition.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 03:25:45 pm
How do you think that the Sturmey Archer professionals trained, given that they were excluded from amateur competition? They were setting new records on a regular basis.
Holland seems to have been a professional until September 1939. There are references to Ferris test-riding the four speed hub in 1939.
I'd be looking for employee records in the Sturmey Archer test department.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 19, 2016, 03:30:45 pm

The last 4 days (including the extra 22 miles) is 195.7 miles per day.

Encouraging.

That figure simply makes me wonder where Steve is going to get the extra daily 30-40 miles from in future months.  That's an extra 2-3 hours riding a day.  Daunting.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: madcow on January 19, 2016, 03:46:07 pm
Amidst all the hand wringing about TG -will he won't he?-the picture of Valda Unthank and the crowds hoping to catch a glimpse of  her transports us back to a different  age.
Thanks Damon , I love that photo.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Tigerrr on January 19, 2016, 04:00:29 pm
its just like that photo every time TG stops in for a fry up in MK.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 04:08:39 pm
It reminds me of dance marathons, and the film 'They Shoot Horses Don't They'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_marathon
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Legs on January 19, 2016, 04:21:37 pm
I just find it extraordinary that Godwin's mileage outside the summer period was so modest.  You'd have thought that if he was of such a calibre that he was able to knock out 300-mile plus days routinely in the summer, then he should have been capable of much larger distances - particularly in the spring.  (I am aware that the winter on 1939 was very harsh).

To be honest, if I were in Godwin's shoes, I would have taken advantage of every opportunity to maximise my mileage and that would have included spending long periods of time sitting behind lorries.  Just because it is not documented by Godwin and Davey does not mean that it wasn't done - in fact, in the light of accusations from Bruce Small et al., they'd be daft to explicitly mention it.

Put it this way: if Tommy achieved his record without extensively drafting in the summer, then his July mileage is about ten times as impressive to me as his overall year figures.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: MikeFromLFE on January 19, 2016, 04:22:16 pm
As I've said before - a read of Citizenfish's book is a jolly good read, and maybe should be required reading for posters on here :)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 19, 2016, 04:25:33 pm
As I've said before - a read of Citizenfish's book is a jolly good read, and maybe should be required reading for posters on here :)

Some of us pre-ordered his book - and a good read it is too.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ben T on January 19, 2016, 04:32:45 pm
To be honest, if I were in Godwin's shoes, I would have taken advantage of every opportunity to maximise my mileage and that would have included spending long periods of time sitting behind lorries.  Just because it is not documented by Godwin and Davey does not mean that it wasn't done - in fact, in the light of accusations from Bruce Small et al., they'd be daft to explicitly mention it.


..and in light of the small matter of the global war that was just kicking off. Don't think I'd like spending 12 hours a day on a bike for a year especially for no pay but I'd rather that than get called up to get shot by Hitler and I don't think I'd want to shout about it either.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 19, 2016, 04:33:23 pm
As I've said before - a read of Citizenfish's book is a jolly good read, and maybe should be required reading for posters on here :)

Some poor bugger has to rewrite the last chapter now... but thanks ;-)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 19, 2016, 06:38:20 pm
Citizenfish, have you chatted much with Tony Hadland? He is a good bloke, wrote detailed histories of both Raleigh and Sturmey and has had extensive access to their company files.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: fboab on January 19, 2016, 06:43:10 pm


I just find it extraordinary that Godwin's mileage outside the summer period was so modest.  You'd have thought that if he was of such a calibre that he was able to knock out 300-mile plus days routinely in the summer, then he should have been capable of much larger distances - particularly in the spring. 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that in an age when it was possible to get opium over the counter, perhaps Tommy the vegetarian wouldn't have passed a urine test.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hummers on January 19, 2016, 06:45:10 pm


I just find it extraordinary that Godwin's mileage outside the summer period was so modest.  You'd have thought that if he was of such a calibre that he was able to knock out 300-mile plus days routinely in the summer, then he should have been capable of much larger distances - particularly in the spring. 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that in an age when it was possible to get opium over the counter, perhaps Tommy the vegetarian wouldn't have passed a urine test.

You're just taking the piss now  :P

H
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 19, 2016, 06:51:10 pm
Citizenfish, have you chatted much with Tony Hadland? He is a good bloke, wrote detailed histories of both Raleigh and Sturmey and has had extensive access to their company files.

Not personally but I bought his Raleigh book and read it cover to cover. I was trying to track down another zombie factoid that Godwin went to Ireland. Found nothing at all in the Raleigh Archives after days of hunting, only one tiny mention in bicycle magazine that I do not trust.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 19, 2016, 07:03:25 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_(cyclist)

There are some interesting names in that piece.
Holland was in the 1932 Olympic British pursuit team (3rd) and Nino Bosari was in the winning Italian team. I think that Nino later moved to Australia.

Edit- http://www.borsaricycles.com.au/our-heritage I thought the name was familiar. He was a huge influence on Australian cycling.

Holland won the first Manx mass start race in 1936, beating Bill Messer of Marlboro AC. HK's first cycling club was the Marlboro and there are still strong family ties.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 19, 2016, 07:09:27 pm
Citizenfish, have you chatted much with Tony Hadland? He is a good bloke, wrote detailed histories of both Raleigh and Sturmey and has had extensive access to their company files.

Not personally but I bought his Raleigh book and read it cover to cover. I was trying to track down another zombie factoid that Godwin went to Ireland. Found nothing at all in the Raleigh Archives after days of hunting, only one tiny mention in bicycle magazine that I do not trust.

I strongly suggest you contact him. He is very helpful and assisted Steve in getting Raleigh sponsorship. Tony chased Raleigh documents within Ireland as part of his research and said that he had to cut his findings in half to avoid producing a doorstop.
https://hadland.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 19, 2016, 07:17:32 pm
Charlie Holland is the Raleigh pro with the most enduring legacy.

It's becoming less important by the day to determine the exact methods that Raleigh employed to get the year record. It only mattered in terms of creating a space for Steve to adopt other methods while conforming to a 'British' ethos. It's pretty clear that Steve is going to carry on largely in his own way.

I'll be interested in how far he gets, but the time of opportunity has passed.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 19, 2016, 07:21:54 pm
It's pretty clear that Steve is going to carry on largely in his own way.

I'll be interested in how far he gets, but the time of opportunity has passed.

Yes. Not much else to be said really.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: aoxomoxoa on January 19, 2016, 09:25:28 pm
It's pretty clear that Steve is going to carry on largely in his own way.

I'll be interested in how far he gets, but the time of opportunity has passed.

Yes. Not much else to be said really.

True, but that won't stop a lot of people saying it anyway  ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ningishzidda on January 20, 2016, 07:20:47 am


The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?

I suggest you research Charles Holland, Bert James and Sid Ferris. Holland's call-up in September 1939 coincides with the withdrawal of pacing.

Quote
1938 was the year Holland attempted professional place-to-place records on the road, at that time the only way that a professional rider could publicise his sponsor, there still being no massed racing on the road and professionals not being allowed to ride amateur time-trials. In June, riding for Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer, Holland broke his first Road Records Association (RRA) record, knocking 12 minutes off the time of his rival, Frank Southall, for Liverpool to Edinburgh, completing the 210 miles in 10 hours.

In August he narrowly beat the record for Land's End to London but it was not accepted as a new RRA record because it did not improve on the old one by more than a minute. Two months later, he completed the 287 miles from Land's End to London again, racing at 21 mph through hours of rain and suffering four punctures but, knocking 25 minutes off the record.

Holland's professional career ended when Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. He was called up to join the Royal Corps of Signals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_(cyclist)#Road_records

Stuff about Charlie Holland can be got from the Secretary of the Midland Cycling and Athletic Club.
There's a couple of members left who knew him personally.
John Pottier for one.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: redfalo on January 20, 2016, 01:32:58 pm
First of all, @citizenfish, I have to say that your book on the history of the year record (https://www.v-publishing.co.uk/books/categories/biographies/the-year.html) is really fascinating and impressive. I have just finished it and an in awe of the riders as well as your work.


I cannot stress enough the importance of BALANCE when looking into this history. Random snippets of internet do not tell the full story. Reading across the entire press of the time, the Raleigh archives and accounts(searching for payments) and family interviews give a broader view of what actually happened. This is what it took me years to get to the bottom of it, not ten minutes of internet search and a bit of cut and paste. The real story shows two riders fighting each other for miles using  everything from sleep deprivation to drafting to get them, both goaded on by their relative team managers. THIS is what pacing means. The final judgement on ending it specifically mentioned the team managers retreating.

The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?


Secondly, I find it really striking how little we know what really happened in those crucial summer months of 1939 despite all that hard work. If there really was no team of paid cyclists or organised motor vehicles used to break the wind for Tommy Godwin (that's how I would intuitively understand the concept of "pacing"), the big question really is how he managed to crank out these incredible miles.

Sleep deprivation IMHO can only be part of the explanation, but I find it hard to believe that this in itself made the difference, as he had already four to five month with long rides and relatively little sleep in his legs when the crazy months started.

The black box between June and August, where Tommy rode 255, 277 and 238 miles per day respectively, also puts Steve's perfornace into perspective, and highlights Kurt's achievement. A back of the envelope calculation shows: if you assume Tommy had ridden daily averages of 215 miles in June, July and August (16 percent less than he actually did, but still 20 percent more than on an average day between January an May), his yearly milage had come down to 71235 miles.

Further assuming that Steve had not been hit by a moped and had been able to increase his daily average to 200 miles in April and May, 215 in June to August, 200 in September and October and 180 in December, his annual milage had been about 73000. That's 1800 miles higher than Tommy without his super-human summer, but still 3000 miles below Kurt, who achieved his mileage without these crazy days in the summer.

That's only 4 percent less than Kurt, but getting this last extra uptick in mileage probably takes a disproportionately large amount of extra effort, in particular due to the need to sleep. Maybe that's the difference between hilly England and flat Florida, having a camper van and Alicia or not.


Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mattc on January 20, 2016, 01:55:08 pm
Perhaps he was pacing himself in the first 5 months? Just doing enough, getting decent sleep/recovery. Then his coach/manager/whatever persuaded him to really go for it in the nicer weather (compounded by the "race" against the other fella).
Perhaps (perhaps perhaps!) it really took it out of him; another 2 months at 238mpd might have killed him!

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 20, 2016, 02:16:04 pm
Secondly, I find it really striking how little we know what really happened in those crucial summer months of 1939 despite all that hard work. If there really was no team of paid cyclists or organised motor vehicles used to break the wind for Tommy Godwin (that's how I would intuitively understand the concept of "pacing"), the big question really is how he managed to crank out these incredible miles.

This whole debate (is brilliant and) has made me go back and dig a lot further to try and get to the bottom of it. The mileage cards would have helped set the record straight but a Cycling Weekly insider of old told me they were more than likely binned during a massive skip session in the 90's. He was frantically pulling out classic old prints of Coppi....

The one recorded and witnessed day (HH England) was a 348. I have the splits here, scroll to the bottom.

http://phased.co.uk/tommy-godwin-faq/

Now, if he was sat for a long time behind riders I'd expect smoother splits. But there appears to be a series of elongated sprints then rests.  Almost like a weird kind of year record interval training!

The testament I do have from his friends tells of him being "bolloxed" most days, needing to be undressed and out to bed and also sleeping out on the job.  Now, if I could find Charlie Davey's diaries....

ps. Let's not forget young Bernard Bennett in all of this. He was riding 250 -270 days on the trot with a mad Frenchman chasing him on a motorbike. I suspect he sat behind it when opportunity allowed.

But one thing I must stress is that Bennett and Godwin gave up everything to ride the year and were fighting for their futures. This adds 10% in my mind as they HAD to get the record and the subsequent job + sponsorship.


Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: rafletcher on January 20, 2016, 02:22:15 pm

The testament I do have from his friends tells of him being "bolloxed" most days,

Perhaps that's Steve's issue today.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 02:30:13 pm
I remember reading that a paced day would consist of a series of 50 mile time trials, interspersed with cafe stops. I'm sure that was mentioned on here somewhere, but these things get to be circular.
That's what PBP consists of for many of the fast, but not over-serious participants. It finds a bit of an echo in the sort of riding that the likes of Andy Wilkinson leads in Majorca.

http://www.legrostrainingcamp.com/april_leader.php

Wilko is the nearest we have to the long distance record breakers of the 1930s. It's his opinion, and that of Gethin Butler that would be most valuable.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Freya on January 20, 2016, 02:47:35 pm
Quote
Now, if he was sat for a long time behind riders I'd expect smoother splits. But there appears to be a series of elongated sprints then rests.
While I defer to your greater knowledge & research (enjoyed the book as well) Couldn't that imply him following something for periods and then not having assistance. (For example making use of a passing vehicle or having a rider whose stamina is used up hence the need for a rest) I'm not saying that this is the case, but as you say, what actually happened has to be inferred from limited data.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 20, 2016, 03:09:22 pm
Quote
Now, if he was sat for a long time behind riders I'd expect smoother splits. But there appears to be a series of elongated sprints then rests.
While I defer to your greater knowledge & research (enjoyed the book as well) Couldn't that imply him following something for periods and then not having assistance. (For example making use of a passing vehicle or having a rider whose stamina is used up hence the need for a rest) I'm not saying that this is the case, but as you say, what actually happened has to be inferred from limited data.

It could and I think it is likely. The myth I am trying to dispel is that he rode behind a team of Raleigh warriors all day long.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 04:28:13 pm
I think a likely scenario is that those riders engaged in testing bikes and components rode between cafes about 50miles part, having a tea break at regular intervals. Godwin may have ridden with them, and either had a break, or ridden on to post a card, coming back to rejoin the other rider, or riders, and so forth.
It would be interesting to see how that would fit with the data. The test riders might have worked an ordinary factory shift, apart from set-piece days.

But it's no longer relevant to the current attempt, it being too late for Steve to do something like that.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 20, 2016, 04:41:56 pm
I think a likely scenario is that those riders engaged in testing bikes and components rode between cafes about 50miles part, having a tea break at regular intervals. Godwin may have ridden with them, and either had a break, or ridden on to post a card, coming back to rejoin the other rider, or riders, and so forth.
It would be interesting to see how that would fit with the data. The test riders might have worked an ordinary factory shift, apart from set-piece days.

But it's no longer relevant to the current attempt, it being too late for Steve to do something like that.

Problem is Raleigh were in Nottingham, Godwin rode further south in the London/Hemel Hempstead area. I don't think this theory fits with the fact that he was based in Rickmansworth. One thing it is worth looking at is if there were weekend peaks when club riders could have helped. Godwin himself stated that he was able to manage on 40 hours of sleep a week.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 20, 2016, 04:46:11 pm
Didn't Godwin have strong connections with Stoke, riding through parts of the Midlands too?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 20, 2016, 04:53:45 pm
Yes, but mainly based in Rickmansworth for the attempt as he specifically mentioned his landlady in an interview afterwards as being one of the main helpers.

I think the route between the two towns would have been his "Marsh Gibbon"
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 20, 2016, 05:02:57 pm
Has Tommy Godwin come back to life and is shuffling around the UK in an attempt on the record?
Have we time travelled?
Do I have a different understanding of the word "current"?
Am I a dinosaur?

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/62448059.jpg)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 20, 2016, 05:14:24 pm
This discussion has developed because some folk wanted Steve and his team to realise that Tommy didn't only ride 'alone and unsupported'. Steve isn't going to get the record in this attempt and it is too late to change that now, regardless of approach.

Pursuing the discussion a little further might help Citizenfish's second edition. His book is the closest thing we have to a unified listing and analysis of the year record. More examination of methods, successful and otherwise, might assist future attempts.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 20, 2016, 06:17:03 pm
Audax is dinosaur cycling. Its principal event dates from 1891, and there were a couple of Italians this time celebrating that. Drew Buck rode a 1936 Raleigh Ace in homage to Tommy Godwin, and wore a replica record jersey. Posters constantly invoke Tommy to do down contemporary riders. We're just engaging in a little palaeontology.

Sid Ferris did some testing of the 4 speed hub.
Quote
The RRA/Sid Ferris Era ended in early 1939 with his testing of the new Sturmey-Archer four-speed AF hub (essentially an AR hub with an extra low gear for mass start racing and hills) over some 3,000 miles covered weekly trial runs between London and Nottingham by Ferris prior to its introduction in April. By then, Raleigh boasted it held nine of Britain's 15 road records totally over 3,500 miles of the 4,650 total.
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/286349/15639925

I'd be interested to know where that bloke got his information. I'm curious how Raleigh did their development work. I'm imagining it was like Triumph motorcycles, and the long distance riders carried out a number of tasks like Percy Tait did at Meriden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Tait
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 20, 2016, 06:56:44 pm
That sounds right ESL. A few Moulton employees from the '50s onwards regularly rode prototype bikes, components and tyres significant distances and following specific protocols to 'improve the breed.' I expect that Raleigh did much the same thing between the wars.

Bruce Small certainly analysed upcoming record attempts and races quite comprehensively to find potential advantages for Oppy and no doubt for his other riders.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: red marley on January 21, 2016, 12:31:24 pm
I realise there were mixed views on the wisdom of Steve continuing on his Aug-Aug record attempt, but to me, one of the more compelling reasons to continue was the likelihood that Bruce might have pushed a record attempt from Steve restarting in 2017 beyond reach for the type of riding Steve prefers. I wonder now given (a) some more lost miles from Steve and (b) shenanigans with Bruce's validation, that that argument no longer applies.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 12:36:27 pm
I wonder now given (a) some more lost miles from Steve and (b) shenanigans with Bruce's validation, that that argument no longer applies.

Good point, although there's always a risk that a new contender (or even LazaBruce) will start a new attempt (under the UMCA) before Steve regroups and restarts.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: toontra on January 21, 2016, 12:38:21 pm
Good point Jo.  I hadn't thought of it that way - his current attempt could have secured the record (providing he beat Kurt's total) for at least 4 months, even if Bruce were to surpass it at the end of 2016.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: The Seldom Killer on January 21, 2016, 12:41:40 pm
I think the argument still applies while Bruce has some form of claim on a record attempts. I would take a communication from Guiness to say they aren't going to validate to stop that. In the eyes of the greater world at large, Guiness trumps UMCA.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 12:45:09 pm
Guinness.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Pale Rider on January 21, 2016, 12:46:10 pm
Worth remembering no one owns the record.

It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.

If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wowbagger on January 21, 2016, 12:46:52 pm
Guinness.

1+n?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hellymedic on January 21, 2016, 01:32:21 pm
Guinness.

1+n?

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 01:43:04 pm
Worth remembering no one owns the record.

It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.

If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.


Actually, I think it does. It's not sufficient to simply claim that you've done the miles, and Strava isn't sufficiently secure to be considered a safe verification. If I ride a long ride and wish to boast to my mates, it's fine - it really doesn't matter whether the Strava record is accurate or even real; that's between me and them. But if one wants to set a benchmark and have it regarded as something on which others can rely - and which can be used as a target by future competitors - it's surely an obligation to ensure that the record set is verified by an authority that observers can trust, and that the distance was not just ridden but that it was ridden within a set of agreed criteria. That's why we have recording and administration organisations.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Pale Rider on January 21, 2016, 01:51:55 pm
Worth remembering no one owns the record.

It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.

If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.

- it's surely an obligation to ensure that the record set is verified by an authority that observers can trust, and that the distance was not just ridden but that it was ridden within a set of agreed criteria. That's why we have recording and administration organisations.

I think the only obligation is to ensure the record is verified in a way observers can trust.

My earlier remark about Tommy not using trackers was slightly misinterpreted, but he managed to set an accepted record without computerised trackers or the UMCA.

It's a matter for you if the UMCA is the only verification you trust, but I believe there are other ways to set a trusted record.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 01:53:12 pm
Simply uploading to Strava and claiming you have a Guinness record seems to be quite a successful method.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ningishzidda on January 21, 2016, 02:20:15 pm
Worth remembering no one owns the record.

It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.

If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.

- it's surely an obligation to ensure that the record set is verified by an authority that observers can trust, and that the distance was not just ridden but that it was ridden within a set of agreed criteria. That's why we have recording and administration organisations.

I think the only obligation is to ensure the record is verified in a way observers can trust.

My earlier remark about Tommy not using trackers was slightly misinterpreted, but he managed to set an accepted record without computerised trackers or the UMCA.

It's a matter for you if the UMCA is the only verification you trust, but I believe there are other ways to set a trusted record.

Tommy utilised the highest technology available at the time. A Smiths Industries speedometer with odometer.
No-one could dispute the reading on the odometer unless they witnessed him getting on the train.

To set a HAM'R distance record today, the participant should utilise the highest technology available today. Any less and observers would suspect plans to cheat somehow.

The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.
Comparing Tommy's and Steves wintertime daily mileages, they are similar, if not up on the Steve side.

Drafting lorries was to reduce Cd ( windage ). If Steve employs a method of doing this ( riding a 'bent like Kurt ) he might get some incredible mileages in the summer and be in contention to achieve a record mileage.

Go Steve !
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 02:26:27 pm
More importantly Tommy was getting witnesses to sign his mileage cards, and a random portion (no idea how many) of these witnesses were checked by Cycling.

Witness books are also the backup strategy for UMCA/HAMR if the live tracking or GPS recording goes awry. And if relied upon the riders only get the credited with the shortest distance between witness entries, which makes riding short circuits (e.g. MK bowl) unsuitable.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 21, 2016, 02:47:09 pm
The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.
It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Greenbank on January 21, 2016, 03:11:10 pm
The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.
It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

Ningi's way older than 16.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 21, 2016, 03:12:15 pm
The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.
It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?

It's defence against accusations that the verification procedures are designed to avoid. As Ning said, Tommy used the best technology available at the time to verify his efforts. Yes, it's possible that he could have used techniques to make his riding more 'efficient'*, and so can any current wannabe record-holder, but it is incumbent upon them to make sure their achievement is properly documented so that, within reason, it can't be challenged and it sets a benchmark for the next participant. Anything else is just a ride.

*I'm not entering into speculation about lorries. I will say this, however. In the early 1960s, I used to go out with my Grandfather on his 1958 Commer coal lorry - a vehicle which, twenty years earlier, would have been subject to the 20mph limit. Fully loaded (about 10 tons, I think), it could make about 30mph on the flat, and was slower than most bicycles going up any significant rise. It may have offered a bit of shelter on the flat, but there's no way it would have offered any advantage (except a very slow rest) going uphill!
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Veloman on January 21, 2016, 03:53:07 pm

It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?

Grossly unfair on those 16-year olds, or any teenager for that matter, who through no fault of their own suffer from 'spots' that can have a massive effect on how they are viewed and their own self confidence.

A very unfortunate example IMO.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 21, 2016, 05:05:04 pm

It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?

Grossly unfair on those 16-year olds, or any teenager for that matter, who through no fault of their own suffer from 'spots' that can have a massive effect on how they are viewed and their own self confidence.

A very unfortunate example IMO.
you are quite right and I apologise.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Andrew Br on January 21, 2016, 08:45:04 pm

Drafting lorries was to reduce Cd .
 

This is wrong as well.
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.
Reducing Cd means getting more aero: deep rims, no flappy clothing etc.
More aero could also include improving CdA by using tri-bars or flipped stem.

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Kim on January 21, 2016, 08:56:22 pm
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.

Surely it's more a case of the air moving at about the same speed as the truck, so you don't have to move it yourself?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 21, 2016, 09:21:10 pm
This is wrong as well.
Cd is a relative measure.

Blah blah blah....

No. You're wrong.

A Cd is a round plastic thing with music on.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Andrew Br on January 21, 2016, 09:53:20 pm
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.

Surely it's more a case of the air moving at about the same speed as the truck, so you don't have to move it yourself?

Arse. My previous reply was lost by an interweb failure so I'll, try again.

I'd hate to get into a technical discussion with you Kim 'cos I'd invariably lose but, AIUI, any moving object creates an area of low pressure directly behind it because it's moved the air out of the way. To take advantage you have to be in the middle of the moving object and very close to it.
My 1st sentence stands  :).

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mustgettaller on January 22, 2016, 12:30:28 am
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.

Surely it's more a case of the air moving at about the same speed as the truck, so you don't have to move it yourself?

Arse. My previous reply was lost by an interweb failure so I'll, try again.

I'd hate to get into a technical discussion with you Kim 'cos I'd invariably lose but, AIUI, any moving object creates an area of low pressure directly behind it because it's moved the air out of the way. To take advantage you have to be in the middle of the moving object and very close to it.
My 1st sentence stands  :).

Ok - let's use my long-distant Aeronautical Engineering degree to lay this out (and probably mis-remember stuff and lay myself open to ridicule).

The form drag of a body moving through a fluid is given by:

F = 1/2 r v2CdA

Where r = air density (I can't do rho here!)
v = velocity relative to the object
Cd is the drag coefficient
A is the cross-section or reference area of the body.

Therefore to reduce drag we can:

Drafting behind another body achieves 1 above - the air behind the body (cyclist, lorry, car...) is entrained behind it and is being dragged forward slightly and therefore relative to the cyclist is reduced.
Drafting might reduce density, but not much at all - it's really all about reducing relative fluid velocity.

An aero position achieves 2 above - the frontal area is reduced. The elongated shape of an aero rider also reduces the Cd.

Cycling at altitude reduces the density thus achieving 3 - but then we all know what happens when you try to exercise at altitude...

Wearing slippery clothes/aero helmets, deep rimmed wheels achieves 4 above by  - well - being slippery, and reducing eddies around the rims. Also fairing other stuff on the bike achieves this.

Footnote
There is, in fact another form of drag, namely induced drag - this is proportional to the lift produced by an aircraft's wings. What's that got to do with bikes? Well... in a crosswind, the bike and rider will produce 'lift' to one side - therefore a crosswind will produce some induced drag - and especially with those lovely deep rimmed wheels 'lifting' hard sideways. However, the advantage of the reduced Cd deep wheels give will outweigh the much lower induced drag.

Now back to the main topic of this thread.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ningishzidda on January 22, 2016, 06:53:42 am
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.

By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.

If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.

When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 22, 2016, 06:58:16 am
My current thoughts on the record attempts ....

I'm glad Kurt is the record holder.  I'm glad the record was broken in a such a classy, open and quantifiable way.  He completely changed my view on him and everything I now read from the bloke makes me like him more.

As far as I can see Steve is no longer competing.   If this is the case then I hope he enjoys his new place in cycling history, reflects on an incredible achievement ..... And plots a new attempt.   Only if he wants it, and only if he spends at least a year enjoying himself first- and then trains for it for another year.   I haven't yet set a payment up because so far I do not see why he needs the money.    If he has now finished, I would like the team to tell us what his plans are because if he needs money to readjust, go on holiday, find a job .... Then that is when I would like to crowd fund him..... Unless there are untold resources in the bank?  Who knows?

I was really into Bruce and hugely exited about his chances ..... Now he's just a bloke on strava to me.    I can not understand why he has gone down this path?   It is completely baffling why he looks at Kurt and thinks "nah, that's too much hassle and money to adher to".....Maybe if he could show some evidence of the Guiness verification, or the rules he is competing under it may help me get on board?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Legs on January 22, 2016, 08:00:02 am
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.

By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.

If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.

When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.

NO!  If you transpose the equation you get Cd = 2F / r v2A.  It is obvious that as r tends to zero (as in your beloved Chester Kyle's example of riding a bike on the moon) that Cd would tend to infinity for any value of F other than zero (in other words, for there to be any force at all with a very low density medium, you'd need a really unslippery object).
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mustgettaller on January 22, 2016, 08:08:04 am
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.

By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.

If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.

When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.

No! Cd is constant for a body. If you change your posture, you are, in aerodynamic terms, changing the body. Drafting only reduces v (and density very slightly).

We may need another thread... (there's probably one already).
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wowbagger on January 22, 2016, 08:09:27 am
Can you entitle it "Physics is a drag"? :P
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ningishzidda on January 22, 2016, 08:18:16 am
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.

By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.

If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.

When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.

No! Cd is constant for a body. If you change your posture, you are, in aerodynamic terms, changing the body. Drafting only reduces v (and density very slightly).

We may need another thread... (there's probably one already).

Agreed. Not for this thread.

I was away at Aidan's new thread.
Sad news.

To bicker about aerodynamics is not fitting here.

Appologies.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Aidan on January 22, 2016, 08:19:33 am


Agreed. Not for this thread.

I was away at Aiden's Aidan's new thread.


FTFY  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ningishzidda on January 22, 2016, 08:51:21 am


Agreed. Not for this thread.

I was away at Aiden's Aidan's new thread.


FTFY  :thumbsup:

Saw my mis-spelling and corrected it AQAP, but too slow,,,  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mustgettaller on January 22, 2016, 09:02:35 am
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.

By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.

If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.

When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.

No! Cd is constant for a body. If you change your posture, you are, in aerodynamic terms, changing the body. Drafting only reduces v (and density very slightly).

We may need another thread... (there's probably one already).

Agreed. Not for this thread.

I was away at Aidan's new thread.
Sad news.

To bicker about aerodynamics is not fitting here.

Appologies.

Agreed  :)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hummers on January 22, 2016, 10:08:13 am
Sad news on the decision for  the attempt being pulled.

I can't imagine that was easy.

My thoughts are with Steve and the Team.

H

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mustgettaller on January 22, 2016, 10:18:21 am
Sad news on the decision for  the attempt being pulled.

I can't imagine that was easy.

My thoughts are with Steve and the Team.

H
+1
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Mikes on January 22, 2016, 10:27:29 am
Good decision from Steve and his team.  They have a lot to be proud of.  I've certainly had value out of Steve's efforts over the past year.

Now, Steve it's time to get some good rest and then do something you really enjoy for a while.   Maybe go for a bike ride ....

Chapeau.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Chris S on January 22, 2016, 10:29:22 am
Some of the money left from donations should be spend on a decent sports physio to help put Steve back together. Maybe a psych too - he's not lived in the real world for over a year now.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 10:40:54 am
Some of the money left from donations should be spend on a decent sports physio to help put Steve back together. Maybe a psych too - he's not lived in the real world for over a year now.

And a holiday! I hope the team has this sort of stuff in hand.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wobbly on January 22, 2016, 10:43:58 am
...maybe a cycling holiday.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mmmmartin on January 22, 2016, 11:05:46 am
not lived in the real world for over a year now.
that could be said about a lot of us, Chris.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ningishzidda on January 22, 2016, 11:18:15 am
...maybe a cycling holiday.

With Kurt.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mmmmartin on January 22, 2016, 11:39:07 am
Two minor points:
When asked in the video: "What next?" Steve talks only of sleeping, eating and recovering. It's too early yet to make plans when you're knackered.

Can we infer anything from this? We know Steve has learnt a lot, because that's what he tells us in the long video. And success rarely teaches anything, it's failure that teaches you stuff. So we can guess that Steve as of January 20, 2016 knows a lot more about how to make an attempt on the world record than he did on the first day of his first attempt. Today, he's knackered. Tomorrow, he'll still be knackered. And the day after that. But there will come a time when he won't be knackered. I'm signing up for the newsletter.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 11:41:50 am
I think it's simply that the team is unlikely to communicate on several fronts again unless Steve decides on another attempt, and that from now on the only source of info will be sent out as a newsletter. Reduces complication and effort. I don't think it implies anything at this stage, but neither does it rule anything out.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: mmmmartin on January 22, 2016, 12:10:12 pm
from now on the only source of info will be sent out as a newsletter
Quite. And this info sent out, from the One Year Time Trial team, what subject might that be concerning then?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 12:24:00 pm
from now on the only source of info will be sent out as a newsletter
Quite. And this info sent out, from the One Year Time Trial team, what subject might that be concerning then?


Steve's health, plans for his time off, what they're going to do with the surplus from the donations, thoughts on whether Citizenfish is going to document Steve's year and, I'm sure, a myriad of other stuff they may wish to communicate - but not via ten different outlets. What's your point?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Morbihan on January 22, 2016, 01:23:27 pm
Steve, I'm in awe of what you have done in the past 1+ year.
Kudos to you and the team.
Rest well.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Wowbagger on January 22, 2016, 01:30:21 pm
I have just closed a much-visited tab on my browser that has been sitting open for months. It was Steve's track.  :'(
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: MikeFromLFE on January 22, 2016, 02:17:09 pm
I have just closed a much-visited tab on my browser that has been sitting open for months. It was Steve's track.  :'(
possibly my second-most used app on my phone now deleted
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 02:22:35 pm
The fact that he carried on when many kept telling him to stop was exactly the right thing to do
(Apologies-  feel free to move to the More Current Thoughts thread if necessary to keep this thread free for justifiably slapping Steve on the back and congratulating him on an amazing 55 weeks.)

Many would disagree with you on this front, Michael.  If (heaven forbid) carrying on this last few weeks were to turn out to have had a detrimental effect on Steve's long-term health, would you still maintain this viewpoint?

Naturally I don't with any ill on Steve but he knew that he had to push himself to, and possibly beyond his limits on a regular basis to complete the challenge.   Steve will have learned an awful lot and it would have been his choice to continue.    Sometimes you learn a negative too but you need to learn that lesson.   THe fact that Steve continued after the moped incident shows that Steve is tenacious and highly motivated and will push until he can push no more.   

So, on balance I'd have to say yes, I would still consider that he did the right thing even if he ended up not getting the right result this time.   Next time, which I sincerely hope there is to be, Steve will be even better, even stronger and even wiser.

Answered here because I think it's more appropriate than the 'Steve ends ride' thread.

I have to say that I agree. There was a time at the back end of last year when the dietary issues appeared to have put Steve's health at risk and significantly reduced his mileage capacity that I, and many others, thought 'it's time to stop' and we said so. However, it would appear that the health issues, while somewhat debilitating, were nowhere near as serious as we feared and so it was right to continue. But, despite recovering from that, it was becoming obvious that Steve could not claw back the deficit and the daily mileages required by the revised schedule were just not going to be possible.

Steve has a record, though not the one he was seeking, which puts him right up there with the greats of distance cycling. If he can retrieve the speed he once had, and which ironically was lost due to time off the bike during the preparation for 1 Jan 2015, I'm quite sure he could give it another go. I'd fund him.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: redfalo on January 22, 2016, 02:32:28 pm
From the long version of the Steve's Youtube video, it sounds like it was Idai who took the initiative in convincing Steve that the current attempt's chances of success are beyond hopeless. It also sounds it took him great effort to bring this sad message across. Big kudos to Idai for this! (Also for getting Steve's health properly checked in October, and advising him on the nutrition change). It looks like the much-maligned team is actually working better than many of us thought (also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Chris S on January 22, 2016, 02:34:13 pm
Steve's got loads of time to read ALL the threads on here now.  :facepalm:

He'll know everything we've you've been saying about him  :o ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ian H on January 22, 2016, 03:11:40 pm
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)

It's telling you that Hoppo, and Phil, and I, live some distance from MK. 
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hellymedic on January 22, 2016, 03:47:28 pm
Am I a stick in the mud when I say I'm relieved that Steve has abandoned but seems remarkably well in mind and body considering?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: redfalo on January 22, 2016, 03:50:28 pm
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)

It's telling you that Hoppo, and Phil, and I, live some distance from MK.

Fair enough. On the other hand, I would expect the crew chief and registered team leader to be personally present when matters of such significance are discussed and communicated.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Jurek on January 22, 2016, 04:40:05 pm
Am I a stick in the mud when I say I'm relieved that Steve has abandoned but seems remarkably well in mind and body considering?
No.
I am, in part, experiencing an unexpected feeling of relief. (In addition to those of awe, admiration, respect, etc)
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 22, 2016, 05:16:15 pm
One of the joys of filming Audax is that you get to see shy people in unselfconscious moments.
You can come back with footage that shows the person underneath.

Getting a good interview out of Idai is like falling off a log. Heather got one which was a bit different at the end of PBP, when he'd lost his voice.

I've not met Chris Hopkinson very many times. The first was when I sat next to him at an AUK AGM. He's always struck me as less 'full on' than his image.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 22, 2016, 05:24:15 pm
Could have been worse Phil, I drove all the way there and my bit was lost as I talked to a camera that was off ;-)

But to add to Phil's points, the team have had almost as big a battering as Steve over the year dealing with so many issues, problems, logistics etc.. There have been many  many late nights, many many many actions way beyond the call of duty. But above all a consistent care for Steve as the number one priority throughout. I think every single member including those who departed should be dead proud of supporting  Steve to get  as far as he did.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Phil W on January 22, 2016, 05:33:11 pm
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)

It's telling you that Hoppo, and Phil, and I, live some distance from MK.

And that the video was about Steve and not Hoppo.  I'd have loved to have been close enough to make it over yesterday, but I'm not sure I'd have fitted on the sofa, and I'd be quite shy being on camera like that. Best leave that bit to the extroverts amongst us.

The full team was involved in discussing and presenting different options and helping Steve come to a decision. His decision on his challenge.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 05:41:13 pm
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)

It's telling you that Hoppo, and Phil, and I, live some distance from MK.

Fair enough. On the other hand, I would expect the crew chief and registered team leader to be personally present when matters of such significance are discussed and communicated.

I can see they've all answered for themselves, but I have to say I think this is a bit unfair. Steve didn't pick the moment in advance; it came to a head Wednesday morning when Idai saw Steve was beyond just knackered. Volunteer team members can't just drop their jobs and families and come running. I'm sure it was all discussed on the phone beforehand. Thank goodness Idai was there, and persuaded Steve to consider knocking it on the head.

I'm sure there will be a long and detailed deconstruction of how the team worked and what might have been done differently in due course. I know we've not been backwards in volunteering our opinions, and I'm sure some of that will be in the mix if there's a next time. In the meantime, I think we should thank all the team, past and present, for supporting Steve - probably rather better than we gave them credit for.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Phil W on January 22, 2016, 05:53:31 pm
Ah Dave, I just deleted me previous post, bit too heart on sleeve and emotional to leave up there.

But essentially we've all worked bloody hard as a team for Steve these past 15 months, late nights sorting stuff out and our own plans cancelled.  Everyone involved in the internal discussions. I know I'm a kind of back room guy and like to stay out the spotlight. But it seems the team was little appreciated in this place from what I've read today. It's been really hard these past few days, never mind months, or even since Steve was hit. We are all little emotionally drained from our investment in Steve's dream. It'd be nice to be appreciated once in a while. Who would volunteer eh?

I might leave this post up, or I might tear it down. I need a drink.

Phil
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Phil W on January 22, 2016, 05:57:36 pm
Could have been worse Phil, I drove all the way there and my bit was lost as I talked to a camera that was off ;-)


Yes but we told you in the discussions, the video wasn't about you promoting your book  ;D
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Phil W on January 22, 2016, 06:02:30 pm
Thanks TimC
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: teethgrinder on January 22, 2016, 06:05:16 pm
I think it a great shame that my team never got the credit they deserved.
Whenever I read "What are Steve's team doing for him?" comments here, it reminded me of Monty Pythons', "Romans" sketch.

I do have sympathy with grossly underestimating the work involved in my attempt. I grossly underestimated how much it would take for me to even start. Without the help of the team, I would have never got started at all. Hoppo was just as crucial as everyone else. He is the Northern European rep for the UMCA and has himself done an awful lot of work for the UMCA. I appreciate how his persona comes accross and why he may not be to the liking of some people. But having been a member of his support crew, I have seen the real Hoppo in action and he's actually a pretty clever rider and really does know how to ride this kind of event. He was the only person who told me that Kurt would go the distance, though he does know Kurt and has raced against him. Hoppo was instrumental in setting the rules with the UMCA and fighting my corner. He also kept me in line with the rules, which he knows inside out. He actually did a hell of a lot.

My team worked very hard and with scant communication from me. They had very little information to go on and couldn't have had an easy task.
My set up was much less efficient than Kurt had. Alicia could see what was happening because she was there. She could make movies. For us to make a short movie took a great deal of planning and we had to abort many attempts because the weather dictated that I couldn't be home on the appointed day. They also cut nto my sleep time, so I never really wanted to do them. Alicia made her movies on site, whereas we could only do them at the end of a days ride.
I had volunteers who worked full time jobs, not paid staff or a dedicated full time crew. I'd have never done what I did without their help.
It wasn't all plain sailing. There were arguments and dissagreements. I have an idea what went on but won't go into that. I do have an idea of both sides of the story with Fidgetbuzz and Hoppo. I don't think it's a one sided story and that's as much as I will say.

I was often amazed at how much my team were putting in for me. Really sad that they got so much criticism, all based on misinformation, rumour and lack of understanding. I'm just gratefull that they feel glad to be a part of what I (and I really mean "we") did. I really would feel bad if the felt I had let them down by not getting the record because I know they put so much in. But, they are all still there for me and want to help me back on my feet again.
I can't imagine having a better bunch of people on my team.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: teethgrinder on January 22, 2016, 06:15:12 pm
I should also point out that nobody pushed me into stopping.
I was hugely reluctant to stop. Idai and I had a long discussion. I agreed with him that I should have a rest day after getting home at 3:30am.
I was in two minds but as I said to Idai, I knew it was the right thing to do, I just didn't want to admit it to myself.
I was going to go out before I decided to stop. I even told Hoppo I was going out, but never did.
I thought about what Idai said, that the team thought I should stop and that I agreed. I pretty well knew it a few days earlier to be honest.
Hoppo was more keen on me keeping going but would support whatever I decided. Hoppo and I think along very similar lines and I think we both have the never give up attitude.
But what really decided it for me was that I promised I would give my best. I couldn't see how I could give my best when I am not at my best or can see a way of becoming at my best.
Hoppo understood and true to his word, backed me up in my decision. I doubt it was easy for him either.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Citizenfish on January 22, 2016, 06:16:08 pm
Could have been worse Phil, I drove all the way there and my bit was lost as I talked to a camera that was off ;-)


Yes but we told you in the discussions, the video wasn't about you promoting your book  ;D

PMSL Steve was holding it in front of the camera at the start, I made them put it out of shot
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: TimC on January 22, 2016, 06:20:31 pm
I should also point out that nobody pushed me into stopping.
I was hugely reluctant to stop. Idai and I had a long discussion. I agreed with him that I should have a rest day after getting home at 3:30am.
I was in two minds but as I said to Idai, I knew it was the right thing to do, I just didn't want to admit it to myself.
I was going to go out before I decided to stop. I even told Hoppo I was going out, but never did.
I thought about what Idai said, that the team thought I should stop and that I agreed. I pretty well knew it a few days earlier to be honest.
Hoppo was more keen on me keeping going but would support whatever I decided. Hoppo and I think along very similar lines and I think we both have the never give up attitude.
But what really decided it for me was that I promised I would give my best. I couldn't see how I could give my best when I am not at my best or can see a way of becoming at my best.
Hoppo understood and true to his word, backed me up in my decision. I doubt it was easy for him either.


Don't beat yourself up about it, Steve. It's always hard to give up on a dream, especially when it must have felt almost within touching distance at times. If Hoppo (and the rest of the team) was right for you, that's all we need to know for now. The detailed debrief between the team can be done when you've all had a little time to relax.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hummers on January 22, 2016, 08:36:44 pm
...(also very telling that Hoppo was not around when the video was made)

It's telling you that Hoppo, and Phil, and I, live some distance from MK.

Fair enough. On the other hand, I would expect the crew chief and registered team leader to be personally present when matters of such significance are discussed and communicated.

I can see they've all answered for themselves, but I have to say I think this is a bit unfair. Steve didn't pick the moment in advance; it came to a head Wednesday morning when Idai saw Steve was beyond just knackered. Volunteer team members can't just drop their jobs and families and come running. I'm sure it was all discussed on the phone beforehand. Thank goodness Idai was there, and persuaded Steve to consider knocking it on the head.

I'm sure there will be a long and detailed deconstruction of how the team worked and what might have been done differently in due course. I know we've not been backwards in volunteering our opinions, and I'm sure some of that will be in the mix if there's a next time. In the meantime, I think we should thank all the team, past and present, for supporting Steve - probably rather better than we gave them credit for.

Damn right.

This wasn't a weekend ride they volunteered for or a 'on-off' and I know some of the people who did stints of time helping out.

They are all the Team and deserve recognition for the role they have played.

H
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Jaded on January 25, 2016, 08:27:51 am
Yes, well done to the team, and thank you Steve for your posts.

This thread has gone quite quiet.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Freya on January 25, 2016, 11:50:32 am
Perhaps because the attempt has ended
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 25, 2016, 03:40:20 pm
*pedant mode*  Current attempt on the overall HAM'R.

There will be more in the future.  And we have a woman attempting the opposite sex record, with the prospect of another joining the fray (apparently).
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Hummers on January 25, 2016, 05:29:40 pm

I should also point out that nobody pushed me into stopping.
I was .......


Yes yes but on a more important subject, I could not help but notice that woman holding your arm and being a little too familiar with you :hand:


WHO IS SHE!!!??


You told me that I was the one...that I was special....that you only had eyes for me.  :'(

I will accept it if she is your sister or a close cousin but nothing else.

H

Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: hillbilly on January 25, 2016, 06:33:17 pm
I will accept it if she is your sister or a close cousin but nothing else.

I knew that spending a lot of time in Norfolk and its surrounds risked contracting their predilection to "keep it in the family".
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Polar Bear on January 25, 2016, 06:47:15 pm
I think it a great shame that my team never got the credit they deserved.
Whenever I read "What are Steve's team doing for him?" comments here, it reminded me of Monty Pythons', "Romans" sketch.
...

Steve, there are many of us did and still do appreciate the enormous and generous efforts of your support team alongside your herculean efforts.    We were just not vocal enough.   If there is a next time them we'll roll out the cheerleaders.   8)

You cannot please all of the people all of the time.   Unfortunately teh internets gives unparalleled oxygen to anybody who wishes to use it.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Aunt Maud on January 25, 2016, 07:59:54 pm
Mike, the host manager put a lot of effort into what he did and showed that he really cared about Steve and his attempt.

I'd like to give him a round of applause. He seems to be overlooked, shame really.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Ian H on January 25, 2016, 08:15:37 pm
Mike, the host manager put a lot of effort into what he did and showed that he really cared about Steve and his attempt.

I'd like to give him a round of applause. He seems to be overlooked, shame really.

Probably because he left a few months ago to take up a post abroad, though he still keeps in close contact by email.  Certainly his enthusiasm was infectious and he chivvied the rest of us along.  He even dragged one poor old bugger off the start line of a TT to go and rescue Steve after the moped incident.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Justin(e) on January 27, 2016, 05:32:51 am
Yes yes but on a more important subject, I could not help but notice that woman holding your arm and being a little too familiar with you :hand:

H

Ooops, someone mentioned the elephant in the room - with elephant size typeface.

I too wondered about this femme fatale.  Was she the Yoko Ono of the HAMR? 

All this talk of diets, speed, and renal impairment.  When there was another organ that really stopped the challenge.  The much more prosaic heart muscle.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Bianchi Boy on January 27, 2016, 06:59:59 am
Hoppo and I think along very similar lines and I think we both have the never give up attitude.
Just an observation, the best teams complement each other and contain people who bring different views and ideas to a group. People with the same views tend to emphasise all aspects of behaviour good and bad. A team needs a balance of views and be able to view situations from different angles.

BB
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Manotea on January 27, 2016, 12:59:32 pm
Other behind the scenes elements of the support network were the AUK Board and event organisers who helped raise funds. It was clear from early on that Steve needed to develop a support team, and the Board encouraged him in that, as Board/Members simply were not in a position to take a direct role themselves - looking after AUK is a job in itself. Still, the Board supported the campaign with a mailshot to members and early financial support, and implemented the 'donate' option on the online event entry system. Besides raising funds this ensured everybody entering AUK events online - not just AUK members - were aware of Steve's ongoing effort. Kudos to Danial for the mailshot and to Chris Crossland, Paul Salmons and Francis Cooke for organising the Donate faciility. All this took a lot more effort than might be apparent.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 27, 2016, 07:29:38 pm
I've been trying to remember if I've ever ridden 200 miles in a day, outside a formally sanctioned event. I've ridden to a friend's house in Mallaig from Leyland, and I once broke the journey at Moffat, so I might just have done 200 miles on the second day.


I find it easier to go a long way in a disciplined event. I've done 11 Audax SRs, so that's 22 occasions I've gone 200 miles in less than 24 hours, 300km rides don't count obviously. Then there are 4 PBPs, so 12 there, and 3 LELs , so another 12. Then there are a few 24  and 12 hour TTs. So over 50 days with over 200 miles ridden. I've done over 200 miles in 12 hours in 24s and 12s. I'd need to check my records to find out how many.

I doubt I'm very unusual on this forum for having done that number of Double Centuries. There are a few Quintuple Centuries in 24 hours around here. I was just musing why it is that this forum seems to be the centre for informed criticism about the Year.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on March 15, 2016, 03:28:51 pm
Sort of resurrecting this thread to get my head around the current record attempts - Kajsa is well on the way and has got past the tricky 6 - 8 weeks where any fundamental issues with approach / plans / kit  / general physical condition would surface, and is also ahead of the current record pace with (hopefully) easier summer days to look forward to.

Alicia and Amanda will start shortly and so we should get some indication as to whether they are hares aiming to catch Kajsa and ensure that any record she sets is short-lived or whether they're going to struggle to make the distance.

Is that it, or have I missed something?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: rafletcher on March 15, 2016, 03:45:26 pm
Well if I've got it right, Kajsa is riding for a Guinness record, and Alicia & Amanda are riding under HAM'R rules, which are somewhat different. There was a point where Guinness, having recognised Kurts HAM'R record as a Guinness one also, tried to change their rules for the womens attempt, to the detriment of Kajsa's early efforts, but she discussed it with them, and they reverted to the original rules under which she started the attempt.
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: danridesbikes on March 16, 2016, 09:53:31 pm
any male contenders on the horizon?
Title: Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on March 22, 2016, 06:41:06 pm
any male contenders on the horizon?

That was soooo last year. 

Perhaps also the efforts that Tarzan and TG put in, plus others falling by the wayside have demonstrated the astonishing difficult of sustaining an effort.  I did a good 10 hour ride on Friday at a pace where I would have been up to the Searvogel line if I had done another 3 hours.  The thought of doing that day in day out doesn't bear consideration.