Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: JohnL on September 12, 2018, 09:00:46 am

Title: Prizes for first back.
Post by: JohnL on September 12, 2018, 09:00:46 am
An organiser near me has announced for the second time (that I’ve noticed) that the first three riders back will receive a bottle of beer each. He includes an ‘Audax is not a race’ qualifier, but am I alone in feeling rather uncomfortable about this?

I’ve heard rumours that other organisers quietly slip a beer to the first riders back, and I’m not overly bothered about that, but too announce it publicly in advance just seems wrong.

I know audaxers pretend not to race, but by overtly announcing the first three get a prize, however low value, bothers me. It removes that pretence and I feel it goes against the ethos of Audax.

I’m a mean cyclist (mean as in average, I tend to arrive about the middle of the pack), so it doesn’t make any difference to me, but I enjoy Audax because of the lack of elitism, and I feel by celebrating the ‘winners’ in such an overt way (even if it is just with a three quid ‘prize’) just isn’t in the spirit.

Is it just me? Am I wrong to be bothered? What are the thoughts of the collective?

John
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: T42 on September 12, 2018, 09:08:02 am
I've not seen anything like that, but I wouldn't like it either.  A prize for the last back within the allotted time would be fun.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 09:22:47 am
I don't see a problem with that. A bottle of beer is not enough of an incentive to turn a ride into a race.
If he said he only has 5 event medals (or mugs with a logo or commemorative T-shirts) and those will go to the first 5 finishers, that would be a different matter.

Food/drink at the finish is first come first served anyway... there should be enough food for all, but there might not be enough beer for all...  ;D
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Wobbly on September 12, 2018, 09:28:27 am
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 09:32:28 am
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

not true... a beer won't make any difference...if I decided I want to be the first back, I will try and do so, if I am not bothered, it's not a beer that will change my mind. It's a non issue... a beer is not a trophy
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: fboab on September 12, 2018, 09:39:53 am
Different rewards for the first three than the last three makes 'winning' incentivised. It doesn't matter what that prize is.

I don't like it either.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: JohnL on September 12, 2018, 09:41:57 am
I've not seen anything like that, but I wouldn't like it either.  A prize for the last back within the allotted time would be fun.

In fairness there was a beer for lantern rouge last time (and won by a club mate who had a heroic adventure!). Although it wasn’t announced until someone asked about it. I have no objections to that ‘prize’. It is of course the tail end where most of the interesting stuff happens!

I don't see a problem with that. A bottle of beer is not enough of an incentive to turn a ride into a race.
I’m not so sure. I may be wrong but the lure of overt recognition can be strong. Look at the battle for segments on Strava, and that is worth nothing. There were comments on Facebook last time about trying to win one (although I concede they may have been tongue in cheek, it’s hard to tell).

Food/drink at the finish is first come first served anyway... there should be enough food for all, but there might not be enough beer for all...  ;D

True, if there were three bottles of beer put out at the end (with no announcement) I’d be ok with that, but it’s the overt announcement before that bothers me.

How would you feel if the organiser announced beforehand he’d only got cake for ten people? The rest can have bread and water.

John
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: JohnL on September 12, 2018, 09:43:55 am
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

This is my gut reaction. I’ve been trying to find the legal definition. This could actually make the Audax illegal!!!

John
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 09:54:45 am
Again,

it's all been blown out of proportion... we are digressing about "nothing"*

*... which is probably the very essence of fora
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 12, 2018, 09:58:27 am
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

This. And I don't like it either.

This could actually make the Audax illegal!!!

Or could at least invalidate the insurance?


On a slightly different note, I was considering sending out a list of finishing times to riders on my recent event. The reason being that because I had instant validation, I didn't fill in the times on the cards at the finish - would have been too time consuming - but some riders like to have that information. It's there on the official results submitted to AUK, so it seems mean not to share it with the riders themselves (and it would have to be a mass email because I'm not sending out 50+ individual emails for that).

But then I though this would probably fall foul of rules about 'publishing' times, besides which I figured that any rider interested enough to know their time could work it out from the time stamp in the finish control. I could argue that I'm only sharing the times among a closed group, but it only takes one of that group to post the list on facebook, which you know they're going to do even if you ask them not to...
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 12, 2018, 10:01:40 am
it's all been blown out of proportion...

No it hasn't. The OP said he "feels rather uncomfortable" about it and asked how others feel. Some agree with him, some don't. That's not exactly what you'd call mass hysteria.

If people start talking about naming and shaming, or even striking off this organiser, that would be blowing it out of proportion. Suggesting beating him to death with a Zefal HPX would really be taking it too far.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: yanto on September 12, 2018, 10:06:35 am
This is not bragging but a statement of fact; I've been first back on every Audax I've done bar LEL in 2013 where I was 6th or 7th, and was presented with absolutely nothing!

That is the way it should be, if one person gets a beer for finishing (first or otherwise) then everybody should get a beer for finishing within time limits.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on September 12, 2018, 10:08:15 am
If I was an organiser I wouldn't do it.  Much more sociable to have an open bar (as in the West Highland 1000). 

Having said that, in my events, as they are all permanents, most riders are first back and I would often them a beer if it wasn't for them finishing 200+km from my home.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: grams on September 12, 2018, 10:09:08 am
Literally the thing that makes audaxes unique is that there’s no prize for finishing first. Doesn’t matter whether or not it actually changes rider behaviour, it still changes the tone of the event and in whatever small way undermines the achievements of the other riders on the event.

Do something interesting and award a beer to the person in 27th, or with the most inappropriate bike or the most catastrophic mechanical or whatever.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: De Sisti on September 12, 2018, 10:16:07 am
Do something interesting and award a beer to the person ...... with the most inappropriate bike or the most catastrophic mechanical or whatever.
Arbitary decision by organiser, or decided by a committee (of riders who took part)? :-D
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 10:31:09 am
Literally the thing that makes audaxes unique is that there’s no prize for finishing first.

Not Audax USP.... even sportives don't hand out prizes to the first finisher in this country... some have gold,silver and bronze standards based on finish time, but no prizes... charity rides don't hand out prizes. Reliability rides don't hand out prizes... in fact only races and time trials hand out prizes to the first finisher.

I appreciate the Audax world is a bare bone budget one, but seeing a bottle of beer as a "prize to the winner" takes some stretch of imagination.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: billy crystal on September 12, 2018, 10:33:55 am
I'm sure the organiser has taken into consideration the risk that distinguishing "places" in advance of the Event may (or may not) invalidate their organiser insurance.  And if that happens then they could be personally liable for any claims otherwise covered by AUK's organiser insurance.

The organiser might feel more confident that a lawyer or claim assessor wouldn't seek to pervert what in a more sensible world would be an innocent gesture.

That said, they can do what they want imo.  Even if I, personally, feel that it slightly goes against the "one for all and all for one" attitude of dashing musketeers randonneurs.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Greenbank on September 12, 2018, 10:35:21 am
But then I though this would probably fall foul of rules about 'publishing' times

The finishing times of all LEL riders are published by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux (which is the validation body). PBP (i.e. ACP) publishes finishing times. I'm not sure there is a rule within AUK to say that finish times absolutely cannot be published for rides it validates. As we know, rides are run by individual organisers not by AUK.

Personally I'd prefer that finishing times of all Audaxes were not published, and definitely not publicly. I can imagine there would be considerable unexpected consequences from changes in rider behaviour (and the types of riders who would enter in order to "win") to make Audax worse overall.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Tomsk on September 12, 2018, 10:36:54 am
Easter Eggs for 'Full Value' on my 100km Woodman & 50 km Woodman's Daughter back in April.  :thumbsup: Plus the scones, cream, jam, cakes, everyone else got as a 'prize'.

Been very tempted to tell lead riders someone was in hours before, just to see the look on their faces ...  :demon:  We have just occasionally had a top long distance TT-er ride my events, not validated 'cos too quick and of course nobody has seen them on the road or at controls.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 12, 2018, 10:38:43 am
The problem is not that a bottle of beer will encourage anyone to ride faster but that it's special treatment.

I've not seen anything like that, but I wouldn't like it either.  A prize for the last back within the allotted time would be fun.

In fairness there was a beer for lantern rouge last time (and won by a club mate who had a heroic adventure!). Although it wasn’t announced until someone asked about it. I have no objections to that ‘prize’. It is of course the tail end where most of the interesting stuff happens!
As someone who's frequently lanterne rouge, I can confirm there is also competition for this prestigious place. On 200s and 300s I often lose out to Roger from South Wales, on shorter events various random locals claim the glory. I've never seen anybody get a prize for it, although on the Jaeger Bomb we (me and my fellow lanterne-rouger who shall remain anonymous, Roger wasn't there!) were offered various remnants of rice pudding and cake to finish up.  :thumbsup: And that's the way it should be.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: chris n on September 12, 2018, 10:42:01 am
Be honest; you only brought this up because the diversity thread was slowing down, didn't you?
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 10:42:24 am
Even if I, personally, feel that it slightly goes against the "one for all and all for one" attitude of dashing musketeers randonneurs.

I think a similar conversation was had a few months back. Some people are quicker, others are slower... I don't think the quicker ones are competing... they just happen to be quicker.
A 20-23 km/h moving speed (which is probably where the social end of the ride is) for me is uncomfortable... it means I would have to constantly stop pedalling and coast or use a gear I am not used to pushing... some feel the same about 25 km/h... some even feel the same about 30 km/h, believe it or not...
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: mattc on September 12, 2018, 10:43:36 am
This is not bragging but a statement of fact; I've been first back on every Audax I've done bar LEL in 2013 where I was 6th or 7th, and was presented with absolutely nothing!

That is the way it should be, if one person gets a beer for finishing (first or otherwise) then everybody should get a beer for finishing within time limits.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 12, 2018, 10:45:41 am
The organiser might feel more confident that a lawyer or claim assessor wouldn't seek to pervert what in a more sensible world would be an innocent gesture.

You would hope not. That would indeed be blowing it out of proportion. Lawyers, though...
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: frankly frankie on September 12, 2018, 11:18:17 am
The finishing times of all LEL riders are published by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux (which is the validation body). PBP (i.e. ACP) publishes finishing times. I'm not sure there is a rule within AUK to say that finish times absolutely cannot be published for rides it validates. As we know, rides are run by individual organisers not by AUK.

"Regulation 9.10 Results: AUK events are not races and no timed results list or placings list of any AUK event may be published."

I must say I rode a randonnee in France where each control stamp was a counter that showed your placing within the field as a whole (about 2000 of them) - aiming for a lower number at each successive control was a great new dimension to the ride for me (and half-killed me, as it turned out).

I've not seen anything like that, but I wouldn't like it either.  A prize for the last back within the allotted time would be fun.
In fairness there was a beer for lantern rouge last time (and won by a club mate who had a heroic adventure!). Although it wasn’t announced until someone asked about it. I have no objections to that ‘prize’. It is of course the tail end where most of the interesting stuff happens!
As someone who's frequently lanterne rouge, I can confirm there is also competition for this prestigious place. On 200s and 300s I often lose out to Roger from South Wales, on shorter events various random locals claim the glory. I've never seen anybody get a prize for it, although on the Jaeger Bomb we (me and my fellow lanterne-rouger who shall remain anonymous, Roger wasn't there!) were offered various remnants of rice pudding and cake to finish up.  :thumbsup: And that's the way it should be.

As a sometime finish controller I would be dead against anything that incentivises tail-enders.  One well-known local 'character' rides round comfortably then pads out any remaining time allowed, in the pub down the road, before rolling in to the finish.  That is unspeakably bad behaviour IMO.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: wilkyboy on September 12, 2018, 11:20:01 am
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

I'm with Sir Wobbly on this — no matter how small the gesture, it's a gesture that would, I believe, have a definite and unwelcome legal significance.

FWIW, if someone on my events has an audacious ride and scrapes back in with seconds left on the clock then we do usually give them something extra, especially if they're new to audax, to give them a bit of encouragement to have another go.  But never for arriving back first for first's sake.

Those who arrive back first usually get to help us set the hall out again, after the martial-arts group have had their time, before they can then sit down and enjoy Mrs WB's delicious soup and cake  ;D
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Wobbly on September 12, 2018, 11:21:02 am
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

not true... a beer won't make any difference...

I don't think you get my point.

Prizes (irrespective of what the prizes actually are) for first, second, third, etc. mean the event is a race.

The police and the CPS (and insurers!) would take a very dim view of unauthorised racing on the public highway.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Philip Whiteman on September 12, 2018, 11:29:33 am
Right!

Yes it was me that placed the comment about beers on the Facebook Group for the forthcoming Beyond the Dyke audax.  It was a little bit of lighthearted fun for many of my participants who don't take life too seriously and the matter is not mentioned anywhere else on the internet or the AUK calendar page.  As Whoasthewheel suggests:
Quote
I appreciate the Audax world is a bare bone budget one, but seeing a bottle of beer as a "prize to the winner" takes some stretch of imagination.


Therefore I have withdrawn the offer of a free beer for the three 'most efficient riders' and replace the offering. A bottle of beer will be awarded to:

- The Lantern Rouge
- Any person that enters this event within 60 minutes of this posting on YACF: Entries at http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/19-120/
- The 27th arrival
- A person who completes the ride against the greatest of all adversarial circumstances (solely judged by the organiser without reference to a committee). 
- To all my volunteers who support all the excellent riders at this event.

Everyone will be awarded a good portion of chilli-con-carne, scones with butter, clotted cream and jam upon their return. Vegan options available.

(http://www.aukweb.net/perms/120b.jpg)

PS. The event is not a race
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: De Sisti on September 12, 2018, 11:30:41 am
I finished last* on the Upper Thames 200 in 2016 due to bouts of severe cramp  (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=105831.msg2229154#msg2229154) along the route,
and an untimely puncture towards the end. I was well fed at the end though. :thumbsup:


*Ok, there was lack of fitness to take into consideration as well, as cycling isn't my number one hobby at the moment.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Veloman on September 12, 2018, 11:38:31 am
......... A bottle of beer will be awarded to:

- Any person that enters this event within 60 minutes of this posting on YACF: Entries at http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/19-120/


Entered and I will donate my beer to a worthy cause of my choice.  Do I have to complete the ride to claim the beer?
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: JohnL on September 12, 2018, 11:40:18 am
Right!

Yes it was me that placed the light hearted comment about beers on the Facebook

I didn’t want to name and shame! I wasn’t sure if it was just me being a curmudgeonly bugger hence wanting to find out opinions, but it just didn’t feel right.

A bottle of beer will be awarded to:
- The Lantern Rouge
- Any person that enters this event within 60 minutes of this posting on YACF: Entries at http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/19-120/
- The 27th Arrival
- A person who completes the ride against the greatest of all adversarial circumstances (solely judged by the organiser without reference to a committee). 
- To all my volunteers who support all the excellent riders at this event.

Fantastic! Unfortunately I am away for this one. But this has encouraged me to keep supporting these events in the future. The ‘prizes’, were putting me off...

John
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Philip Whiteman on September 12, 2018, 11:41:54 am
......... A bottle of beer will be awarded to:

- Any person that enters this event within 60 minutes of this posting on YACF: Entries at http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/19-120/


Entered and I will donate my beer to a worthy cause of my choice.  Do I have to complete the ride to claim the beer?

Just received your entry, Richard. Consider yourself the lucky winner of the non-prize of a Teme Valley bottle of beer.   Just collect it on the day. 

I have extended the deadline to 12.29;  any more entries?
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 12, 2018, 11:44:39 am
Be honest; you only brought this up because the diversity thread was slowing down, didn't you?

I love threads like this.

Gives me a chance to update the old iggy list.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 11:44:51 am


I don't think you get my point.

Prizes (irrespective of what the prizes actually are) for first, second, third, etc. mean the event is a race.

The police and the CPS (and insurers!) would take a very dim view of unauthorised racing on the public highway.

I do get your point, but your point is dogmatic.
The Police will have a large laugh at anyone suggesting that because a bottle of beer was on offer for the first finisher... it therefore turned this into a race.
I would like to believe that the police have more serious matters to deal with that whether or not a bottle of beer turns a ride into a race.



Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Veloman on September 12, 2018, 11:47:14 am
While I understand the comment may have been light hearted, and Philip has my utmost respect as an organiser, I do not support giving some riders more favourable treatment than others and fully endorse the comments of Wobbly and wilkyboy.

In essence, audax is a non-competitive activity and treating any rider differently to others, based on a time of finish, goes against the whole ethos of audax.  The aim is simply to complete the course within the time limits.  If you are first back then congratulate yourself and once recovered start helping the organiser in any way you can.

Be honest; you only brought this up because the diversity thread was slowing down, didn't you?

My thoughts entirely!
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on September 12, 2018, 11:49:01 am


I don't think you get my point.

Prizes (irrespective of what the prizes actually are) for first, second, third, etc. mean the event is a race.

The police and the CPS (and insurers!) would take a very dim view of unauthorised racing on the public highway.

I do get your point, but your point is dogmatic.
The Police will have a large laugh at anyone suggesting that because a bottle of beer was on offer for the first finisher... it therefore turned this into a race.
I would like to believe that the police have more serious matters to deal with that whether or not a bottle of beer turns a ride into a race.

No, but some weaslylawyer could get a driver off of a serious charge if there was a crash through some legal loophole  if it transpired prizes were given for places.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Wobbly on September 12, 2018, 11:50:42 am
The Police will have a large laugh at anyone suggesting that because a bottle of beer was on offer for the first finisher... it therefore turned this into a race.
I would like to believe that the police have more serious matters to deal with that whether or not a bottle of beer turns a ride into a race.

Goodness me.

You've never had dealings with the police, have you?

(Oh, and I assume you were referring to the constabulary and not the popular 80's beat combo when you typed "The Police")
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Philip Whiteman on September 12, 2018, 11:53:27 am
Bugger you lot discussing prizes.

I want some more bottles of beer to hand out to persons entering before 12.29 today.  http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/19-120/

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41662428_10211654429345606_5992653278381342720_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=da991854e613b9838a250671eb4a8453&oe=5C366923)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 12:05:27 pm
Can you make sure it's cold? I hate warm ale...
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Philip Whiteman on September 12, 2018, 12:08:33 pm
Can you make sure it's cold? I hate warm ale...

Will you be vying for 27th place?  I hear that there will be congregation of audaxers standing outside of GHQ waiting until the 27th place becomes available.  Any other poor unsuspecting rider ahead of 27th place will be shoved through the door with brevet card in hand.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 12:08:43 pm
The Police will have a large laugh at anyone suggesting that because a bottle of beer was on offer for the first finisher... it therefore turned this into a race.
I would like to believe that the police have more serious matters to deal with that whether or not a bottle of beer turns a ride into a race.

Goodness me.

You've never had dealings with the police, have you?

(Oh, and I assume you were referring to the constabulary and not the popular 80's beat combo when you typed "The Police")

To be honest, I think they would be far more interested in their blood alcohol level after they had a couple of servings of your pudding at one of the controls...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 12:35:53 pm
Can you make sure it's cold? I hate warm ale...

Will you be vying for 27th place?  I hear that there will be congregation of audaxers standing outside of GHQ waiting until the 27th place becomes available.  Any other poor unsuspecting rider ahead of 27th place will be shoved through the door with brevet card in hand.

I need to finish before 5 PM... I guess that means being "a contender"  ;D
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Greenbank on September 12, 2018, 12:44:28 pm
The finishing times of all LEL riders are published by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux (which is the validation body). PBP (i.e. ACP) publishes finishing times. I'm not sure there is a rule within AUK to say that finish times absolutely cannot be published for rides it validates. As we know, rides are run by individual organisers not by AUK.

"Regulation 9.10 Results: AUK events are not races and no timed results list or placings list of any AUK event may be published."

Ah yes, not sure how I missed that, thanks. That seems pretty final.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: chris n on September 12, 2018, 12:48:40 pm
Be honest; you only brought this up because the diversity thread was slowing down, didn't you?

I love threads like this.

Gives me a chance to update the old iggy list.

Am I on it now? ;D
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: LMT on September 12, 2018, 01:40:24 pm
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

not true... a beer won't make any difference...if I decided I want to be the first back, I will try and do so, if I am not bothered, it's not a beer that will change my mind. It's a non issue... a beer is not a trophy

Nice strawman.

Beer, a medal, a mug - it's all the same. A prize means it's a race.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Bikeabilityman on September 12, 2018, 02:56:44 pm
I’ve said on this forum before that the appeal is that they are non-competitive endurance rides and not races. I got fed up with riding sportives (and I’ve still not done one since I made the switch) because others were cheating, taking unnecessary risks or racing on them. On an Audax you either finish in the time limit or you don’t. To hear of riders waiting for controls to open baffles me. Stop at a ‘spoons and enjoy a burger and pint. I made a comeback to racing and TT this year (only minor), so I use my carbon racer (no ‘guards) and TT bike on those, not on an Audax (and especially not on a full mudguard compulsory one) in an attempt to be one of the first back (not even for a free beer!).

Does that sound like a rant?
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: frankly frankie on September 12, 2018, 03:33:50 pm
I think you're missing the point that an audax can be all things to all people.  If others want to race ride as fast as they can, don't be baffled by it, just let it go.  And if you enjoy riding your carbon racer, why not ride it round an audax?
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 03:59:56 pm
I am glad this is turning once again into a "fitter rider" bashing and witch hunt...
so much for the alleged diversity we are all seeking...  ::-)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Wobbly on September 12, 2018, 04:12:55 pm
Can you please point out any bashing of fitter riders or any witches being hunted in this thread?
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 12, 2018, 04:14:23 pm
What a bunch of cry babies.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Greenbank on September 12, 2018, 04:26:58 pm
What a bunch of cry babies.

Is there a prize for being first to well up?
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 12, 2018, 04:32:14 pm
Probably.

But you'd have to enter the audax snowflakes' safespace to collect it.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Manotea on September 12, 2018, 04:46:52 pm
There a special prize offered to *ALL* fixed wheel riders making a clear round (70" and no foot faults!) of the ANNNfractuous...

It is the the reknowned Bacon Butty D'Or!

Though TBH, its been in the cupboard so long waiting for somebody to claim it that it is now more like the Bacon Butty D'Vert....
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 04:47:09 pm
Can you please point out any bashing of fitter riders or any witches being hunted in this thread?

Over the last page the usual theme of "faster riders" is creeping up... the carbon bikes, the "dashing randonneurs"...

The thread didn't have legs to stand on and someone is therefore turning into the usual debate

Steel + mudguards value riders VS carbon fibre antisocial riders...

A totally imaginary distinction that has no reason to exist because simply does not reflect any real (or perceived) divide

Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Wobbly on September 12, 2018, 04:55:54 pm
So, as I thought; there was no bashing of fitter riders and no witch hunts at all.

Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: frillipippi on September 12, 2018, 05:03:27 pm
...and yet, not a word about the fact that the prize is an alcoholic beverage given to somebody that didn't ask for it and will likely ride/drive some more to get home...  :demon:
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 12, 2018, 05:05:19 pm
To hear of riders waiting for controls to open baffles me. Stop at a ‘spoons and enjoy a burger and pint.

What baffles me is the idea that eating a Spoons burger could be more enjoyable than riding your bike fast.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Ian H on September 12, 2018, 05:10:59 pm
To hear of riders waiting for controls to open baffles me. Stop at a ‘spoons and enjoy a burger and pint.

... eating a Spoons burger...

That's a rather tasteless comment.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Wobbly on September 12, 2018, 05:14:00 pm
He's just chewing the fat, Ian.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: JohnL on September 12, 2018, 05:15:11 pm
The thread didn't have legs to stand on and someone is therefore turning into the usual debate

Did it not? Sorry for starting it. We are however on page 3.... in fact it was less of a debate than I thought with the majority agreeing with me. I’ve not seen fast rider bashing and it was never my intention.

John
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Bikeabilityman on September 12, 2018, 05:22:43 pm
 I ride semi fast so that I have time to enjoy the ‘spoons veggie brekky or burger chips and pint meal deal, or McD meal/pancakes/McFlurry, or cafe nosh, and watch the world (and other Audaxers) go by. I tell my club mates it’s not a race, and I wouldn’t want to risk damaging my best (racing) bike on an Audax. Let everyone who finishes be awarded a drink of whatever, not just the first three.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 05:28:44 pm
The thread didn't have legs to stand on and someone is therefore turning into the usual debate

Did it not? Sorry for starting it. We are however on page 3.... in fact it was less of a debate than I thought with the majority agreeing with me. I’ve not seen fast rider bashing and it was never my intention.

John

I wouldn't have started it. The organiser in question is among the best out there and his events are brilliant. I've done a couple and never got the feeling there was some sort of race going on.
There are a number of club riders who take part and they tend to be on the swift side, but no racing at the front, none whatsoever.

Saying that an organiser is promoting racing because he jokingly offers a beer to the first back (I don't think the expression "first finisher" was even used)... what if the first back was someone who DNF? Is it still a race or maybe the organiser is promoting cutting corners to finish first?

C'mon, completely blown out of proportion and supported by a number of forum locals who should really know better that bringing in police, lawsuits and all sorts of nonsense.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Bikeabilityman on September 12, 2018, 05:37:27 pm
Sorry! Just replied to the burger comment on phone and didn’t spot there were previous comments. I’m not having a go at fast v slow (think I’m somewhere in between). I take a while chewing and digesting food otherwise I feel sick when setting off again, so I ride a bit faster to allow for that time. Audaxes aren’t races, so there shouldn’t be any prize for finishing first.

Have the meat eaters tried a ‘spoons veggie burger?
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Kim on September 12, 2018, 05:38:21 pm
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

Is my school of thought.

No problem with prizes for completing your first ride of $distance, most comedy bike, most ambitious newbie, youngest rider, most unfortunate mechanical, most spectacular bodge, looking most haggard at the finish, completing your 100th brevet on your 100th birthday, best spokey-dokeys, or whatever.  Those would be entirely within the spirit of Audax, and Not A Race.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 12, 2018, 05:40:38 pm
He's just chewing the fat, Ian.

Last time I had a Spoons burger it was more like chewing cardboard.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 12, 2018, 05:45:36 pm
completely blown out of proportion

You're getting hysterical. And taking comments like the "dashing randonneurs" out of context doesn't help. Go back and read that post again and see what it actually said.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 12, 2018, 06:01:50 pm
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

Is my school of thought.

No problem with prizes for completing your first ride of $distance, most comedy bike, most ambitious newbie, youngest rider, most unfortunate mechanical, most spectacular bodge, looking most haggard at the finish, completing your 100th brevet on your 100th birthday, best spokey-dokeys, or whatever.  Those would be entirely within the spirit of Audax, and Not A Race.

Not in my experience.

Do you seriously think that there would be any difference in finishers' times on parallel events, one offering a pint to first back, and the other event not?

Heck, Ive ridden these events. I've even had a pint at the end. It made no difference whatsoever to the manner in which anybody rode....but the pint was quite welcome nevertheless.

It's all part of the fun, and the pompous windbags on this thread can stuff their opinions where the sun doesn't shine.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 12, 2018, 06:08:57 pm
Go back and read that post again and see what it actually said.

I can't find the comment anymore, either I imagined it or it has been deleted...

anyway...
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Kim on September 12, 2018, 06:12:56 pm
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

Is my school of thought.

No problem with prizes for completing your first ride of $distance, most comedy bike, most ambitious newbie, youngest rider, most unfortunate mechanical, most spectacular bodge, looking most haggard at the finish, completing your 100th brevet on your 100th birthday, best spokey-dokeys, or whatever.  Those would be entirely within the spirit of Audax, and Not A Race.

Not in my experience.

Do you seriously think that there would be any difference in finishers' times on parallel events, one offering a pint to first back, and the other event not?

Heck, Ive ridden these events. I've even had a pint at the end. It made no difference whatsoever to the manner in which anybody rode....but the pint was quite welcome nevertheless.

A race in which nobody makes particular effort to win is still a race.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: mattc on September 12, 2018, 06:26:19 pm
Be honest; you only brought this up because the diversity thread was slowing down, didn't you?

I love threads like this.

Gives me a chance to update the old iggy list.

Am I on it now? ;D
I've been trying for 10 years - so you've got no hope! Clearly a very exclusive club.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 12, 2018, 06:53:00 pm
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

Is my school of thought.

No problem with prizes for completing your first ride of $distance, most comedy bike, most ambitious newbie, youngest rider, most unfortunate mechanical, most spectacular bodge, looking most haggard at the finish, completing your 100th brevet on your 100th birthday, best spokey-dokeys, or whatever.  Those would be entirely within the spirit of Audax, and Not A Race.

Not in my experience.

Do you seriously think that there would be any difference in finishers' times on parallel events, one offering a pint to first back, and the other event not?

Heck, Ive ridden these events. I've even had a pint at the end. It made no difference whatsoever to the manner in which anybody rode....but the pint was quite welcome nevertheless.

A race in which nobody makes particular effort to win is still a race.

And this is only a problem for those who can only see things in black and white.

Sportives aren't races. But they are more race like than a fuken audax with a pint at the end.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 12, 2018, 07:14:42 pm
Be honest; you only brought this up because the diversity thread was slowing down, didn't you?

I love threads like this.

Gives me a chance to update the old iggy list.

Am I on it now? ;D
I've been trying for 10 years - so you've got no hope! Clearly a very exclusive club.

You've been on there since the beginning Matt. I occasionally click to see what crap you are spouting.

You never disappoint, I'll give you that  :-*
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: rob on September 12, 2018, 07:31:18 pm
First rider back on my 400 used to have to get me out of my sleeping bag.

The prize was me walking round in my pants putting the kettle on.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: mattc on September 12, 2018, 07:57:28 pm
First rider back on my 400 used to have to get me out of my sleeping bag.

The prize was me walking round in my pants putting the kettle on.

 ;D
The next time we spend 10 pages arguing about the "Spirit of Audax", someone remind me to quote this post.

But getting back to the (alleged) point:
I very much doubt this beery prize has done any real harm - or indeed is likely to in the future - but I think Philip is now doing the right thing  :thumbsup:

If you're going to have a "joke" prize, it really should be for something a little silly; not just the winner!

p.s. it looks like a nice event. Logistics are a bit tricky, but I'll try to do it some day. Presteigne is the centre of the Audax world :)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Ben T on September 12, 2018, 08:27:48 pm
I once remember an organiser starting riders on an audax with the words "ready, steady, GO" - or it might have been "on your marks, get set, GO". Is that against the rules of AUK/law of the land/laws of social niceness?  :D
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: JohnL on September 12, 2018, 09:00:13 pm
If you're going to have a "joke" prize, it really should be for something a little silly; not just the winner!
Exactly!   :thumbsup:

The Kidderminster Killer was a great ride, which is why I was disappointed when I saw the ‘prizes’. This one also looks awesome but (if I was around) I wouldn’t have done it, because the ethos didn’t feel right with these ‘prizes’ being advertised. It did put me off, which is why I asked the question as I was curious if it was just me being a snowflake.

Now as strange as it may sound, it appears that the majority on this thread agree it’s ‘a bit off’ (although I assume most would be sensible enough not to flounce off and not do it as I was going to). Phil has now altered the prizes so they are (what I would describe as) a lot more fun and less elitist. If I was around, I would now definitely be signing up.

Now, purely for academic reasons (ok, and because it will cheese off Whosatthewheel and Flatus  ;)) I looked up the offence on the Police National Legal Database to see if there was a definition of racing. The closest it got was:

“Bicycle race:means a race or trial of speed which is not a time trial.”

So, not very helpful. I would argue that in the astronomically small chance that Phil got hauled in front of the beak, it would be down to the ‘man on the Clapham omnibus test’. The question being something like: ‘is a group of riders riding a fixed route, where the first three finishers receive something the others don’t, a race?’

John
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: ian_oli on September 12, 2018, 11:22:28 pm
Nobody has raised the diversity issue - what if the prize winner is a non-drinker, especially for cultural or religious reasons. It's why footballers are no longer offered champagne for man of the match, but a small trophy instead.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: hellymedic on September 13, 2018, 12:49:26 am
I don't like beer.
I'm not riding and was never anything other than a Lanterne Rouge.
Other beverages are available.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: mattc on September 13, 2018, 06:55:49 am
Now, purely for academic reasons (ok, and because it will cheese off Whosatthewheel and Flatus  ;)) I looked up the offence on the Police National Legal Database to see if there was a definition of racing. The closest it got was:

“Bicycle race:means a race or trial of speed which is not a time trial.”

So, not very helpful. I would argue that in the astronomically small chance that Phil got hauled in front of the beak, it would be down to the ‘man on the Clapham omnibus test’. The question being something like: ‘is a group of riders riding a fixed route, where the first three finishers receive something the others don’t, a race?’

John
also purely for academic reasons:

You would also need to look at precedents. I am not aware of any, but someone probably is ...


In practice, this would only be an issue if there was:
- am RTA where insurers got involved, or
- some other breach of the peace, crime etc resulting in police involvement.

(In either case, things would be exacerbated if speed, or some sort of careless riding was involved. Or some behaviour that looked like "racing" to Joe Public, or a man watching from the Clapham Omnibus.)

Very unlikely, but not impossible.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 13, 2018, 06:59:12 am
Now, purely for academic reasons (ok, and because it will cheese off Whosatthewheel and Flatus  ;)) I looked up the offence on the Police National Legal Database to see if there was a definition of racing. The closest it got was:

“Bicycle race:means a race or trial of speed which is not a time trial.”

So, not very helpful. I would argue that in the astronomically small chance that Phil got hauled in front of the beak, it would be down to the ‘man on the Clapham omnibus test’. The question being something like: ‘is a group of riders riding a fixed route, where the first three finishers receive something the others don’t, a race?’

John
also purely for academic reasons:

You would also need to look at precedents. I am not aware of any, but someone probably is ...


In practice, this would only be an issue if there was:
- am RTA where insurers got involved, or
- some other breach of the peace, crime etc resulting in police involvement.

(In either case, things would be exacerbated if speed, or some sort of careless riding was involved. Or some behaviour that looked like "racing" to Joe Public, or a man watching from the Clapham Omnibus.)

Very unlikely, but not impossible.

Even though the police have barely the resources to even turn up to burglaries, let alone investigate them, I'm sure if they got wind of a pint being offered at an obscure cycling event for 40 people they would come down like a ton of bricks.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 13, 2018, 07:15:00 am


Now as strange as it may sound, it appears that the majority on this thread agree it’s ‘a bit off’ (although I assume most would be sensible enough not to flounce off and not do it as I was going to). Phil has now altered the prizes so they are (what I would describe as) a lot more fun and less elitist. If I was around, I would now definitely be signing up.


So you kicked a fuss about an event you didn't even want to ride...
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Aunt Maud on September 13, 2018, 07:21:48 am
And we wonder why audax has such a low participation rate amongst the compos mentis.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: JohnL on September 13, 2018, 07:50:29 am


Now as strange as it may sound, it appears that the majority on this thread agree it’s ‘a bit off’ (although I assume most would be sensible enough not to flounce off and not do it as I was going to). Phil has now altered the prizes so they are (what I would describe as) a lot more fun and less elitist. If I was around, I would now definitely be signing up.


So you kicked a fuss about an event you didn't even want to ride...
No. I asked a generic question about awarding prizes for ‘winning’ audaxes in order to see if I was alone in my feelings. It just so happened it was triggered by an event that I want to ride, but I am unable to. I didn’t name the ride or organiser.

Are you only interested in things that directly, personally, have an impact on you?

John
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 13, 2018, 09:26:52 am


Are you only interested in things that directly, personally, have an impact on you?

John

Not necessarily... but you could kind of expect this thread to escalate... any time you post something along the lines of "Is this in the spirit of Audax?" that causes a flurry of opinions, relevant and not.
In view of that, it would have been wiser to talk to the organiser directly, expressing your concerns.

Annoyingly, I think I was second finisher at last year's Autumn Rivers, but I don't recall getting a beer as a prize, clearly that wasn't a race then...  :P
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 13, 2018, 10:04:38 am
I was curious if it was just me being a snowflake.

Possibly, a wee bit.

I never liked the fact that the Tour of the Surrey Hills has sportive-style Gold/Silver/Bronze time gradings but I've ridden it a few times and it's a great event so I don't let that bother me. It has no bearing on my ride anyway. (I don't know if they still have those gradings - it's a few years since I last rode it.)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Greenbank on September 13, 2018, 10:11:32 am
It's not RUSA directly but there are extra awards in the US for people who complete Audaxes within 80%, 70% and 60% of the time limits:-

http://cyclosmontagnards.org/R80Rules.html
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 13, 2018, 10:41:10 am
AUK has a fully developed ranking system. The various formal awards are backed up by the Mersey Roads 24, which has bands of achievement from 400 to 700 km, and by events so severe that finishing them is an indication of athleticism.

It's possible to decode that information to establish an informal ranking. Information from other events can also be used to identify the champions of the sport, for those who care about such things. Those positions can be adjusted by observers to take account of demeanour and equipment choice to identify their own heroes.

If a modest fellow on a steel bike with mudguards wins the bottle of beer, that's better than someone 'pushy' on a carbon bike in my book. Others will have different prejudices, all equally valid, as Audax is a 'Broad Church' and religions are largely about bundles of prejudice, or 'fixed' ideas, and we have an award for that too.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: frankly frankie on September 13, 2018, 10:50:07 am
I never liked the fact that the Tour of the Surrey Hills has sportive-style Gold/Silver/Bronze time gradings but I've ridden it a few times and it's a great event so I don't let that bother me.

A hangover from earlier times when AUK had some ultra-hilly 100s (some of them much hillier than the Tour of the Hills) with a time limit of 5 hours (Gold) after which the organisers went home or to the nearest pub and anyone finishing within 7 hours could award themselves a Silver.  At that time the LE-JoG also had Gold (80h), Silver (108h) and Bronze times, the Bronze being the 2-week version that most people do these days.

Back in the day when Sheila and I rode the Marmotte together, she left me on the final climb up Alpe d'Huez and finished about 5 mins ahead of me.  By virtue of being (a) female and (b) of a certain age, she got the highly coveted Gold Marmotte.  I, 5 minutes later, was handed the Bronze.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: T42 on September 13, 2018, 10:51:41 am
<aside>
I think this is the fastest-growing thread I've seen on here.
</aside>

Other than that, I don't give a damn what kind of bike someone rides on an Audax as long as it's human-powered. I'm a weak old bugger on a carbon bike, I don't drink beer, and if I get home three seconds under the guillotine it'll be a bloody miracle. I'll be ten times more delighted than the look-at-me colossus who made it round with six hours to spare, too. Give him a beer by all means; maybe it'll choke him.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Manotea on September 13, 2018, 11:13:15 am
It's not RUSA directly but there are extra awards in the US for people who complete Audaxes within 80%, 70% and 60% of the time limits:-

http://cyclosmontagnards.org/R80Rules.html

Interesting.... for more info contact Cyclos Montagnards, c/o Bicycle Quarterly, 2442 NW Market St #426, Seattle, WA, USA, bqletters at bikequarterly dot com

ACP/RUSA regs state that:
- A brevet must be done alone and may not be counted as participation in another event held in conjunction with it.
- Brevets are not competitive events, so no rider classifications are made.

Technically, CM are not running events but recognising achievement but it's a bit tenuous.

It's hard to get excited by 'other' organisations recognising participation in RUSA Brevets amongst other events per se, however rider classifications - which is the whole point of such recognition - is directly contrary to ACP/RUSA regs...

Full Disclosure: I was once 'awarded' a "Gold Grimpeur" Medal by the late and much missed Tim Wainwight for the "Battle and Back" out of Warlingham. It couldn't have been time based as I finished with minutes to spare (no change there).  I don't think it was made of real gold but rather somthing like depleted uranium. The thing weighed a ton and it was clear that pinning it to my saddlebag would ensure I would never be in contention for such an award ever again.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Ben T on September 13, 2018, 12:55:39 pm
If a modest fellow on a steel bike with mudguards wins the bottle of beer, that's better than someone 'pushy' on a carbon bike in my book. Others will have different prejudices, all equally valid, as Audax is a 'Broad Church' and religions are largely about bundles of prejudice, or 'fixed' ideas, and we have an award for that too.
What about someone pushy on a steel bike vs a modest fellow on a carbon bike?  :-\ :)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: frankly frankie on September 13, 2018, 12:57:40 pm
Precisely.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 13, 2018, 12:58:27 pm

What about someone pushy on a steel bike vs a modest fellow on a carbon bike?  :-\ :)

You can't mix stereotypes... it's not in the spirit of Audaxing
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 13, 2018, 02:14:31 pm
If a modest fellow on a steel bike with mudguards wins the bottle of beer, that's better than someone 'pushy' on a carbon bike in my book. Others will have different prejudices, all equally valid, as Audax is a 'Broad Church' and religions are largely about bundles of prejudice, or 'fixed' ideas, and we have an award for that too.
What about someone pushy on a steel bike vs a modest fellow on a carbon bike?  :-\ :)

I'll admit to be being swayed in my judgements by my preference for low-budget solutions to the problems posed by the rigours of Audax. So Peter Simon got my personal award for the best performance of 2016 by coming hone first on the Mille Pennines on a 1983 Raleigh Record Ace that was modified to take big tyres.

Peter admitted that his carbon bike might have been even faster. It makes a good story, and that's always going to win over 'bling', which just requires the handing over of cash. But that's just my view.

However, I'm not convinced by the trend towards super-hard rides as a form of athletic display. I'd prefer a sliding scale of maximum time allowed, based on AAA points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBIU38fbiyA
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Ben T on September 13, 2018, 02:47:59 pm
So since when has steel been free?
If I wanted a similar steel bike from 1983 it would probably today be regarded as a 'classic' and thus require the handing over of quite a lot of cash to get it.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 13, 2018, 03:57:21 pm
About £95, and £15 postage. https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/263900146503?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D49076c9788864aea8383d6a7a06bc742%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D253820704595%26itm%3D263900146503

That assumes you haven't got one in the garage, as I have. There are plenty of them about, and they turn up on PBP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-glPimWvLO0

Gavin Reichert finished in under 70 hours, a pretty good performance. http://shprung.com/pbp/?mode=info&frame=N192

Obviously views about this sort of thing are always going to be subjective, but that doesn't stop those views being based on evidence.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Ben T on September 13, 2018, 04:29:44 pm
About £95, and £15 postage. https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/263900146503?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D49076c9788864aea8383d6a7a06bc742%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D253820704595%26itm%3D263900146503

That assumes you haven't got one in the garage, as I have. There are plenty of them about, and they turn up on PBP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-glPimWvLO0

Gavin Reichert finished in under 70 hours, a pretty good performance. http://shprung.com/pbp/?mode=info&frame=N192

Obviously views about this sort of thing are always going to be subjective, but that doesn't stop those views being based on evidence.


I guess saying bling "just requires handing over cash" implies that the rider of an ancient steel bike is somehow more noble because they have kept their bike going strong since the 80s.
But they may not have - they may have just bought it a week ago on ebay.

Carbon bikes do still require maintenance - to varying degrees depending on component choice.

(Can't be about respect for poorer riders in preference to wealthier ones as your personal award seems unaffected by the fact the winner of it also owns a carbon bike...)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 13, 2018, 04:32:12 pm
Never mind prizes for first back, there are some real prize winners on this thread...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 13, 2018, 04:41:02 pm
A hangover from earlier times when AUK had some ultra-hilly 100s (some of them much hillier than the Tour of the Hills) with a time limit of 5 hours (Gold) after which the organisers went home or to the nearest pub and anyone finishing within 7 hours could award themselves a Silver.

Ah! Thanks for the historical context. It always struck me as odd, especially since the event is run by a CTC group, but that makes a bit more sense.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 13, 2018, 05:12:43 pm
A number of French brevets (not BRMs e.g. Fleche de France) have gold, silver and bronze time limits. I suspect AUK's graduated ride awards followed that template. I think there used to be gold, silver and bronze standards for the LEJOG perm in AUK's distant past.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 13, 2018, 06:33:46 pm
Times didn't used to be published for PBP, so the Vedettes/ Randonneurs / Tourists were essentially Gold/ Silver/ Bronze. Club reliability trials often have different start times, and CTC distance and time rides had a series of grades as well.
If the different time groups for PBP had different qualifying times, then we might see gradations in Audax times, but there's just a single qualification time for all three groups.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: drossall on September 13, 2018, 11:12:29 pm
As someone who's frequently lanterne rouge, I can confirm there is also competition for this prestigious place.
On a recent 100, I punctured in the first mile, and found that my mini-pump was mini, but didn't really qualify for the name pump. I limped back to the start, used the track pump in my car, got directions to a bike shop, bought my first ever CO2 inflator*, and punctured again in two miles.

After that, no more issues. At half distance, I was advised at the control that two other riders were very offended that I was jeopardising their traditional role as tail-end charlies. Luckily I caught and passed them before the end, and peace was restored.

* Having found that they had several different pumps that didn't qualify for the name either
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: madcow on September 14, 2018, 08:29:46 am
Free beer for all finishers is the solution to the OP's dilemna.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 14, 2018, 09:17:08 am
Free beer for all finishers is the solution to the OP's dilemna.
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Philip Whiteman on September 14, 2018, 09:39:35 am
Free beer for all finishers is the solution to the OP's dilemna.

That is certainly not within my budget unless riders appreciate Tesco economy dish-water lager at AVB 1.2%. 

Though I have considered commissioning  the Fixed Wheel brewery (http://fixedwheelbrewery.co.uk/beer_type/all-beers/) to provide a few casks of their finest cycling themed ales. In fact the brewer would probably be prepared to brand a beer 'The Kidderminster Killer - AVB 8%', 'Audax Ale' or 'Brevet Beer'.  For non-beer drinkers, some fine apple juice from local orchards would be the alternative. And before any over regulatory zealot makes a comment, there is an on-licence for alcohol at my GHQ.

If car parking was not an issue, I would be prepared to start and finish events from the local Bathams pub with a beer token handed to all entrants. 
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 14, 2018, 10:04:42 am
I toyed with the idea of giving all riders* a beer token at the finish (brewery) but decided it would be easier to let people buy their own drinks and better not to add £3 to the entry fee. Tea, coffee, water and squash are free, anything else you have to pay for.


*not just finishers but any DNFs who return to the venue as well.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 14, 2018, 10:16:32 am
There was a brewer on LEL 2001. Wim Van Der Spek later settled in Little Valley near Mytholmroyd.
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/long-ride-to-little-valley-1-2394394

So one of the Three Coasts 600s had a special beer brewed for it, and we got a bottle each. One of the small kindnesses which Chris Crossland is known for.

There must be a picture of the label somewhere, the best I can do is a link to a picture of Wim at the Carlisle Truck Stop on the LEL by Julian Beach. He's a big bloke. I recall pointing him out as the best wheel to follow to a French rider called Jean Luc Monier.
I remember that his girlfriend had a Morris Minor with LEL in the registration.

It's a lot easier to access memories when they're in one place. The idea of a gallery on the AUK website died out when everyone seemed to be posting on Flickr and the like. It's a bit of a monument to Tim Wainwright, Cliff Shakespeare and Frankly Frankie. http://www.aukweb.net/resources/gallery/

There are still links to various albums. I like them, as I have a wide knowledge of events such as LEL 2009, but accounts get closed, and there's a lack of captioning.
http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21964.msg399389#msg399389

(http://www.aukweb.net/el/carlislewim.jpg)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Greenbank on September 14, 2018, 10:17:25 am
Personal opinion, but if I were an organiser I wouldn't be encouraging people to drink (by giving them a beer token) before some would be driving home.

Finishing at a pub and letting people make their own choices is fine. But providing people with a pre-paid token is just the other side of the line for me.

I'd be interested in a study in whether drinking at the end of a long distance ride has a greater effect on blood/breath alcohol levels and reaction times compared to the same quantities of booze when normally hydrated and rested. I'd certainly be up for participating in such a study!

(I've never driven home from an Audax although I did drive 5 miles or so back to the hotel after the MR24TT and that was after a 2h sleep in the car. It's certainly something I never want to repeat.)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: citoyen on September 14, 2018, 10:33:25 am
Personal opinion, but if I were an organiser I wouldn't be encouraging people to drink (by giving them a beer token) before some would be driving home.

That's was part of my reason for not going through with it.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: JohnL on September 14, 2018, 10:40:42 am
There was free beer at the overnight on the Three Steps to Severn 600 (and I think at the end, but I was driving). It was generic supermarket stuff, but it was a nice gesture.

John
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 14, 2018, 10:40:57 am
I've done quite a bit of experimentation with alcohol within, and at the end of Audaxes. Red wine seems to be the best knockout drink for sleeping at controls.

It takes about twice as much beer as normal to reach intoxication at the end of PBP or LEL. The alcohol seems to be metabolised from the system quickly, and there's a lot of adrenalin about.

Driving after a long Audax is a very bad idea. I drank after the Daylight 600 when Heather was due to come in about 10 hours later than me, as knocking myself out in order to get some solid sleep was a good idea.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: Philip Whiteman on September 14, 2018, 11:04:45 am
Very true in terms of the drink and drive problem.  Bottled beers can be taken home.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: pizzicatooff on September 14, 2018, 11:22:17 am
There was a brewer on LEL 2001. Wim Van Der Spek later settled in Little Valley near Mytholmroyd.
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/long-ride-to-little-valley-1-2394394

So one of the Three Coasts 600s had a special beer brewed for it, and we got a bottle each.

There must be a picture of the label somewhere,

Here you are, Damon.

(https://serving.photos.photobox.com/660027194ca3e7df9ff6a057b4f77d72cc09b3e8d4bcf76e902b6f8f8a7846fac2353c6d.jpg)
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: JayP on September 14, 2018, 11:40:05 am
There was free beer at the overnight on the Three Steps to Severn 600 (and I think at the end, but I was driving). It was generic supermarket stuff, but it was a nice gesture.

John

John I appreciate your tactful reference /\above/\ to the undeniable fact that it was absolute pish.
I'll be attempting to give it away again  Saturday week on the Venetian Nights.  ;D :sick:


Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: arabella on September 15, 2018, 09:11:39 am
A 20-23 km/h moving speed (which is probably where the social end of the ride is) for me is uncomfortable... it means I would have to constantly stop pedalling and coast or use a gear I am not used to pushing... some feel the same about 25 km/h... some even feel the same about 30 km/h, believe it or not...
It sounds no different from cycling (touring) with my (then) 7 and 10yo little dears.  push-push-push-coast-(repeat)
You do realise that older/heavier/less well maintained bikes have a speed penalty which will make it easier for you to ride less fast for the same effort?  Or you could add unnecessary luggage?
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: nextSibling on September 15, 2018, 09:53:48 am
It's not RUSA directly but there are extra awards in the US for people who complete Audaxes within 80%, 70% and 60% of the time limits:-

http://cyclosmontagnards.org/R80Rules.html

It's not RUSA at all.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 15, 2018, 09:55:54 am
There was a lot of RUSA discussion at the time the recognition scheme started, along with a fair bit of tutting. In the end, there is no practical way to stop a separate organisation from doing this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: nextSibling on September 15, 2018, 10:04:35 am
There was a lot of RUSA discussion at the time the recognition scheme started, along with a fair bit of tutting. In the end, there is no practical way to stop a separate organisation from this sort of thing.

Years later, nobody in the mainstream randonneuring community in the US seems to pay any attention to it other than Jan Heine and maybe few of his pals, so the idea seems to have somewhat withered on the vine.
Title: Re: Prizes for first back.
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 13, 2018, 07:57:47 pm
I've not seen anything like that, but I wouldn't like it either.  A prize for the last back within the allotted time would be fun.

In fairness there was a beer for lantern rouge last time (and won by a club mate who had a heroic adventure!). Although it wasn’t announced until someone asked about it. I have no objections to that ‘prize’. It is of course the tail end where most of the interesting stuff happens!

As Lantern Rouge on all bar 1 of my Audaxes, I really like the idea of this one :p

J