Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Phil W on September 14, 2018, 12:06:32 pm

Title: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 14, 2018, 12:06:32 pm

Edit - Map Link is now https://long-distance.rocks/auk/map/perms/

Hi,

Over on FB we have got started on trying to crowdsource efforts to work out and document and map all the correct starts and controls of the Audax UK Perms out there. I have created a Google Docs Spreadsheet for working on the information. Are you interested in helping? Anyone can update the spreadsheet.

Here is a work in progress map that shows where we are going with the data.  It draws a dynamic outline of the route (when you hove over a perm start marker) given known control locations.   First we gather the town / village names and then they need to be geocoded into latitude and longitude for consumption by the mapping app I'm putting together.  Mostly the code is ready but we need to sort out the perm data.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/anw7xb2h1afks33/perm%20routes.png?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/mtz0n269qnn29xr/perm2.PNG?raw=1)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z1c5nUgnwHjr2a7Xt6Wm9DvcRX5D7hHorBTDmJa_27s/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: halhorner on September 14, 2018, 12:33:21 pm
Cool idea. Have just added a couple. Where will you put the finished product?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 14, 2018, 12:35:43 pm
Will shift the data I've collated over when I get home tonight and have everything ready for the BoF tomorrow,
I've been working alphabetically on organizer surname name (the website list), I think i got through to the end of Sarah Britton's Perms.

But for George Berwick's ones I only have a control list for the Twilight 600 as Fearnor posted them on here recently.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 14, 2018, 12:47:24 pm
Useful resource, but...

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.
The sheer hassle involved in applying for a perm card and collecting multiple receipts is going to be dwarved (and already is) by the DIY option.

In fact, I'd rather ride an existing perm as a DIY GPS... I don't need to stop 9 times along the way to buy as many Mars bars... it's really a no brainer.

From the organiser point of view, I'd rather just pass on a route I enjoy on a public database for DIY and save myself the joy of spending an afternoon writing cryptic instructions just to see it bouncing against a wall of rubber
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: hulver on September 14, 2018, 12:58:23 pm
Useful resource, but...

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.
The sheer hassle involved in applying for a perm card and collecting multiple receipts is going to be dwarved (and already is) by the DIY option.

In fact, I'd rather ride an existing perm as a DIY GPS... I don't need to stop 9 times along the way to buy as many Mars bars... it's really a no brainer.

From the organiser point of view, I'd rather just pass on a route I enjoy on a public database for DIY and save myself the joy of spending an afternoon writing cryptic instructions just to see it bouncing against a wall of rubber

A lot of those Perms have got fantastic, tested routes though.

I see this as a step towards putting all the routes for them online, which would be a great resource. If it's turned into somewhere that anybody can share their DIY routes as well, so much the better.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 14, 2018, 01:05:22 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if the map turns into that sort of resource for many.

I've a few routes that I don't mind sharing, but them being shared through the official channel of a club when there's been no proper risk assessment etc. may be the source of liability/responsibility issues that disclaimers don't get you out of.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 14, 2018, 01:06:57 pm
Useful resource, but...

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.
The sheer hassle involved in applying for a perm card and collecting multiple receipts is going to be dwarved (and already is) by the DIY option.

In fact, I'd rather ride an existing perm as a DIY GPS... I don't need to stop 9 times along the way to buy as many Mars bars... it's really a no brainer.

From the organiser point of view, I'd rather just pass on a route I enjoy on a public database for DIY and save myself the joy of spending an afternoon writing cryptic instructions just to see it bouncing against a wall of rubber

A lot of those Perms have got fantastic, tested routes though.

I see this as a step towards putting all the routes for them online, which would be a great resource. If it's turned into somewhere that anybody can share their DIY routes as well, so much the better.

I am not saying they are bad routes... but, follow my logic

I bought a brevet card for a perm, because I cannot do the calendar version of the same event.
The calendar version has 3 controls and 4 infos, the Perm has 7 controls. If you add start and finish, it means I need to produce 9 proofs of passage over 200 km!!

What I will do instead, is to do the route as a DIY and ditch the card. With GPS validation I won't need any receipt and I can even tweak the route if I want to... what's not to like?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 14, 2018, 01:07:26 pm
I think they are only dying out as it is hard to find out where they go, let alone visualise that.  If we can gather enough info and get it visualised as above then I think it will reawaken many of them.

As to where it will go online I can bung it up under my Hertfordshire audax domain at the moment.    Initially it will be static website map (note that does not mean the map is not dynamic) based on what perm data we have gathered / gather.  Then I will see about providing a facility to update the perm details directly on the mapping.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: citoyen on September 14, 2018, 01:12:16 pm
I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.

Well, bully for you. This thread is for people who are interested in a project that is designed to keep traditional perms alive. If that's of no interest to you, you are not obliged to take part.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 14, 2018, 01:16:14 pm
I am not saying they are bad routes... but, follow my logic

I bought a brevet card for a perm, because I cannot do the calendar version of the same event.
The calendar version has 3 controls and 4 infos, the Perm has 7 controls. If you add start and finish, it means I need to produce 9 proofs of passage over 200 km!!

What I will do instead, is to do the route as a DIY and ditch the card. With GPS validation I won't need any receipt and I can even tweak the route if I want to... what's not to like?

Since the advice is for an Advisory route to have no more than 1 control per 50km before resorting to Mandatory route, does that indicate the shortest route between sensibly spaced controls is massively under distance or routing along roads you don't want to go near?

You are of course presenting a good example of where scraping the route off Strava/RWGPS is probably the better option than the traditional way.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 14, 2018, 01:23:03 pm


Since the advice is for an Advisory route to have no more than 1 control per 50km before resorting to Mandatory route, does that indicate the shortest route between sensibly spaced controls is massively under distance or routing along roads you don't want to go near?

You are of course presenting a good example of where scraping the route off Strava/RWGPS is probably the better option than the traditional way.

Yes, the problem is that I didn't know when I bought the card... I assumed it would be the same as the calendar event, with 4 infos spaced between the controls, which I was OK with. Instead 4 extra controls 
Wasted 3 quid and 2 SAEs to find out :P
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 14, 2018, 01:25:56 pm
I think they are only dying out as it is hard to find out where they go, let alone visualise that.
They will die out because they have been superseeded by technology. They would continue to thrive if AUK gave perms and DIY a different status, but they are equal, hence perms will succumb
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: k_green on September 14, 2018, 01:28:59 pm
I think they are only dying out as it is hard to find out where they go, let alone visualise that.  If we can gather enough info and get it visualised as above then I think it will reawaken many of them.


Totally agree with this! I'd love to do some more perms but how do I decide on one?! I don't want to email 6 organisers to get more than the barebones which are on the website now.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 14, 2018, 01:32:33 pm
Surely all you need to do is to google 200, 300, 400 or 600km rides on Strava, and bring up the routes of the well-known rides. You can then see what the best place to start that ride is. Possibly a railway station, a budget hotel, or a safe parking area.

You can then track your ride against somebody else's performance. Following the course of a calendar ride means that you can use online accounts as a guide.

You can work your way up to doing the same with PBP, at a time which suits you, and avoids all the problems of 6,000 others on the road.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 14, 2018, 01:39:17 pm
Phil - I have done @Ian H's ones on the spreadsheet.
<aside/> Why do people have to be such moaners (YKWIM)?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 14, 2018, 01:44:47 pm
Totally agree with this! I'd love to do some more perms but how do I decide on one?! I don't want to email 6 organisers to get more than the barebones which are on the website now.
If the route is not on RidewithGPS and you are on strava, just use the search function and you will find someone who has done said permanent/event. You can then gather all the information you need. If you are a premium member, you don't even need to map the route again, you can download it as GPX straightaway.
If you are not, just befriend the said person and ask him/her for a GPX.

If you prefer reading from a piece of paper, plot the GPX into RidewithGPS, download the instructions... they are not great, but they are workable... and anyway, buying a perm card can be a lottery too
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: citoyen on September 14, 2018, 01:47:32 pm
buying a perm card can be a lottery too

Which is precisely one of the problems this project intends to address... Can't you just give the negativity a rest for five minutes?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: hillbilly on September 14, 2018, 01:55:18 pm
Great initiative.  Proper perms have been needing this for many years.

I'll have a look through when I can access Google Docs (work blocks file sharing sites) as I have done a fair few, including some relatively obscure ones.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 14, 2018, 01:57:33 pm
Which is precisely one of the problems this project intends to address... Can't you just give the negativity a rest for five minutes?

Positivity:

Here's my idea (reinventing the wheel here): e-permanents. You get a GPX and routecard automatically when you pay. Validation by GPX. That would boost perms, because I would rather give my money to someone who has spent time putting together a good route, than giving the same money to AUK for a DIY validation of the same ride.
Everybody is a winner...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: rob on September 14, 2018, 02:01:02 pm
Has anyone every thought about starting a 'what I love about AUK' thread ?

This forum us full of whining negative bollocks.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: postie on September 14, 2018, 02:41:06 pm
Some perm organizeers already allow rides to do there traditional permanents by gps as suggested by whats his face.
Enter perm, receive gpx of the route,ride it and send your file of completed ride when done, hey look no paper, no card and no receipts! !!!! Been available on some perms for a year or two. So nothing new.

Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 14, 2018, 06:52:50 pm
Site is now live though noticed a couple of events are in the wrong place. But did notice there is a genuine 1000 perm from Turkey that looks interesting. Out doing route check tomorrow so will post link Sunday after I have corrected the location of a couple of the events.

It us not reliant on a particular website technology. So hopefully can be ported back to the audax uk website once the £500,000 has been spent.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 14, 2018, 07:13:46 pm
I've updated the google sheet with the controls i scraped off the website and what I knew for the twilight 600
In particular the CBnn code events seem to have the start location in the middle of the listed controls; but he does allow you to start anywhere on route
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 14, 2018, 07:18:50 pm
Great I will probably pick up again after the weekend and start merging control data into the mapping.  Just two events have their controls data in what is live at the moment. I do like the outline routes popping up when you having over them.  I can now see The Hudderfield Humber perm turns near me , so I might use that for one of my RRTY rides.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 14, 2018, 07:37:11 pm
Was kind of disappointed to discover a CSV parting formula to get a list of all the unique (as typed) controls from the controls lists; so I've got that extracting sooner than expected; hopefully be able to figure out how to convert the control town name CSV list to a list of GPS Co-Ordinates by referencing another sheet soon too; that way all that should need to be done to keep it up to date is:
Add a new event row, type the control list, add any new controls to the GPS list and the spreadsheet will spit the GPS co-Ords list out into the next column...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mattc on September 14, 2018, 07:40:17 pm
I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.

Well, bully for you. This thread is for people who are interested in a project that is designed to keep traditional perms alive. If that's of no interest to you, you are not obliged to take part.
Exactly.

Meanwhile, quite a few perms are thriving. There is a much-praised report in current Awoowoo about the Cambrian SuperRandy, and a quick glance at the Cambrian Perms threads shows a steady-and-growing following  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 14, 2018, 09:38:47 pm
Ok, latest on the spreadsheet

Driving off the Controls comma separated list it's creating a list of all distinct control names in the sheet Controls Extract
The purpose of that will be (once I figure out how to do it) to allow you to see what controls need to be added to the "Control Mapping" sheet
In the control mapping sheet will be a mapping between control name and co-ordinates; each control name needs to be put in manually

In the Control co-ordinates column of the main sheet it will match the Controls in the controls column to the control co-ordinate in Control Mapping and render a semi-colon separated list of control co-ordinates. I've used semi-colons to separate the controls in there since the GPS co-ordinates are already using dots and commas.

This is more interesting than anything I've done at work recently so really got into it...


What it still needs is for control lists to be added
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: αdαmsκι on September 14, 2018, 09:48:38 pm

Here's my idea (reinventing the wheel here): e-permanents. You get a GPX and routecard automatically when you pay. Validation by GPX.

So like this?
http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/PL03/ or this: http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/MH01/


I'll see if I can fill in any gaps on the spreadsheet when I get a chance. This sounds like it'll be very useful. It's always good to follow a route picked my someone who knows the good roads.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 14, 2018, 09:55:19 pm
Ok, latest on the spreadsheet

Driving off the Controls comma separated list it's creating a list of all distinct control names in the sheet Controls Extract
The purpose of that will be (once I figure out how to do it) to allow you to see what controls need to be added to the "Control Mapping" sheet
In the control mapping sheet will be a mapping between control name and co-ordinates; each control name needs to be put in manually

In the Control co-ordinates column of the main sheet it will match the Controls in the controls column to the control co-ordinate in Control Mapping and render a semi-colon separated list of control co-ordinates. I've used semi-colons to separate the controls in there since the GPS co-ordinates are already using dots and commas.

This is more interesting than anything I've done at work recently so really got into it...


What it still needs is for control lists to be added

I used this to batch geocode the perm  starts

http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/geocoder/

You need a mapquest api key to do it, but it returns comma separated results to easy to cut / paste back into a spreadsheet.  Annoyingly it has an american bias and seems to default to USA locations if you don't have the county / country in the address. There might be an option hidden somewhere to search in Europe first.  But it is relatively quick for building up lat / lon lists for places.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 14, 2018, 10:01:01 pm
Yeah, that'll be quicker than dropping each one into Google Maps!
Although Google maps gives a chance to check it's sensible!

I can now see people adding new controls that aren't already in the mapping sheet by watching the Control extract sheet :-)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 14, 2018, 10:04:44 pm
It gives more detail of the address so I've already rejected it's determination that Acharchle is in the Mid-West of the USA
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 14, 2018, 11:22:43 pm
Think it would be worth having a column for the 'name' of the Perm.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Martin on September 14, 2018, 11:33:31 pm
AUK regular perms (of which I organise 4) can be started anywhere on route ridden either way round and also validated entirely by gps so no need for receipts / brevet card/ stamps / anything, Shirley far easier than a DIY over the same route?

unless I am one of a privileged few orgs who are allowed to do it the easy way having been doing it without any problems at all for 6 years and with many happy riders...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 14, 2018, 11:54:04 pm
Got a fair whack of the control locations in; that's assuming mapquest got the ones it identified as being in the UK right
it's also assuming the ones I did manually in google maps I've picked up the co-ordinates right (i just tested Land's end and had the co-ords for the north channel...)

There are some in the "controls missing mappings" list that I've been unable to identify even by working out a route around the other controls on routes it appears in; see "Victoria"

There's also cases such as Richmond, where there are multiple places; it's possibly that it could be Richmond North Yorks, Richmond London or some other Richmond.
I don't know for sure that they've been made distinct in all uses of them; so if you spot a ride in North Yorks that has a spike down to London or somewhere else improbable for the distance, it can be fixed by adjusting the control list (you may need to either identify the correct place from the list or add a new control to the list).

I've cleaned a few up as some were being entered but I'm away now until I get back from the Borders of Fife

Keep the control list to controls separated by commas, if there's also useful text around the control list on the website put that into the extra info column.

Fictional example:
Website Description: Cracking route in the borders from Gala, Controls at Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat or Johnstone bridge and Langholm
Extra info - Cracking route in the borders from Gala, Controls at Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat or Johnstone bridge and Langholm
Control List - Gala, Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat, Johnstone Bridge, Langholm, Gala

Also, avoid trailing commas or full stops on the last entry in the control list as that won't then match the controls that are already entered.

To add a control from the missing list (unless it's the first in the missing list)
Copy the text from the column B of the Controls Extract
Drop it into Column A of the Control Mapping sheet and put the GPS co-ordinates in Column B
That control should then automatically disappear from column B of the Controls Extract


Beats sitting reading my colleagues code all day since they hung onto the reviews until the end of the project they're doing...  :sick:
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: jsabine on September 15, 2018, 12:02:36 am
You're one of a 'privileged few' organisers who choose to i) offer enough information for riders to know what they're actually going to ride, ii) allow riders to start anywhere in the route/at any control (ok, most organisers (I think) do this), and iii) offer validation by GPS.

All of these are available to every perm organiser (and to me it's minimal information that is the biggest sticking point, so chapeau to Phil for taking this on), but I think (and hope I'm wrong) there are only about three who officially offer GPS validation. It's up to the orgs to say what they offer ...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 15, 2018, 07:22:04 am
Useful resource, but...

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.


You are the idiot who rides up an A road because you don't know the loverly quiet route on a B road

You are the idiot who rides on a NCR instead of a nice bit of A road because you've not been this way before

If you rely on Google Maps you miss out

The perms aren't a marketing ploy they are wisdom

Aside from the fact I have no idea what you are talking about,

If you want to call me names, I suggest you contact me directly... maybe we can sort it out between ourselves
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mattc on September 15, 2018, 07:59:28 am
... but I think (and hope I'm wrong) there are only about three who officially offer GPS validation. It's up to the orgs to say what they offer ...

I do think it should be mentioned that only a special few were empowered to do this until quite recently. And it's not just a button to press on a form - there is some setup admin to be done (which non-techy organisers will struggle with.)

(If Phil's amazing map comes to fruition, it might be the kick-up-the-arse to get mine done ... )
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: PhilB on September 15, 2018, 09:03:57 am

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.
The sheer hassle involved in applying for a perm card and collecting multiple receipts is going to be dwarved (and already is) by the DIY option.



Not from my perspective, & I would regard myself as a fairly typical AUK member. Of the 20 events I've ridden this season 25% have been traditional card & receipt perms (50% calendar, 25% DIY).


As a rule I find traditional perms follow nice routes with well thought out controls. Part of the pleasure of riding an Audax is the regular stops to eat & drink, so collecting receipts is no hardship & looking out for info controls adds an extra dimension to the ride.


This is a great project & I'm looking forward to using it to find new rides to try.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 15, 2018, 09:17:37 am

As a rule I find traditional perms follow nice routes with well thought out controls. Part of the pleasure of riding an Audax is the regular stops to eat & drink, so collecting receipts is no hardship & looking out for info controls adds an extra dimension to the ride.


Looking at perms validations, typically (which means there are exceptions) it's a restricted pool of individuals that use the same perm  over and over for their RRTY. If you know the perm, you know what you are buying when you press the button.
If you don't know the perm, then it's a gamble, sometimes it works, other times you get something which doesn't suit (like in my case above).
A repository with information helps, but I don't see how the OP can provide all the information needed (controls, number and locations, validation type: GPS? Photos?) without the cooperation of ALL the perm holders.

I will certainly buy perm cards again in the future, but not without doing a lot of homework ahead (like harassing the perm holder for details)... if this resource will help in that respect, great... but my issue wasn't route as such, that can be found for most perms on Ridewithgps or other resources...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mattc on September 15, 2018, 05:13:04 pm
I will certainly buy perm cards again in the future, but not without doing a lot of homework ahead (like harassing the perm holder for details)...
Jolly good - just stick to the ones you can get good info for, or you already know about. That's the marketplace we have; nobody cares if you don't try out every perm! Maybe the ones that "discourage" entries will fade away, and the "good" ones will thrive. Marvellous!

Quote
if this resource will help in that respect, great...
So stop moaning and let them get on with it. "If you haven't got anything nice to say ... " as my mum (and probably yours ) used to say!
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 15, 2018, 10:26:32 pm
Got a fair whack of the control locations in; that's assuming mapquest got the ones it identified as being in the UK right
it's also assuming the ones I did manually in google maps I've picked up the co-ordinates right (i just tested Land's end and had the co-ords for the north channel...)

There are some in the "controls missing mappings" list that I've been unable to identify even by working out a route around the other controls on routes it appears in; see "Victoria"

There's also cases such as Richmond, where there are multiple places; it's possibly that it could be Richmond North Yorks, Richmond London or some other Richmond.
I don't know for sure that they've been made distinct in all uses of them; so if you spot a ride in North Yorks that has a spike down to London or somewhere else improbable for the distance, it can be fixed by adjusting the control list (you may need to either identify the correct place from the list or add a new control to the list).

I've cleaned a few up as some were being entered but I'm away now until I get back from the Borders of Fife

Keep the control list to controls separated by commas, if there's also useful text around the control list on the website put that into the extra info column.

Fictional example:
Website Description: Cracking route in the borders from Gala, Controls at Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat or Johnstone bridge and Langholm
Extra info - Cracking route in the borders from Gala, Controls at Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat or Johnstone bridge and Langholm
Control List - Gala, Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat, Johnstone Bridge, Langholm, Gala

Also, avoid trailing commas or full stops on the last entry in the control list as that won't then match the controls that are already entered.

To add a control from the missing list (unless it's the first in the missing list)
Copy the text from the column B of the Controls Extract
Drop it into Column A of the Control Mapping sheet and put the GPS co-ordinates in Column B
That control should then automatically disappear from column B of the Controls Extract


Beats sitting reading my colleagues code all day since they hung onto the reviews until the end of the project they're doing...  :sick:

Thanks for doing this. I have geen out today on a final check of my calendar 200 that runs next weekend.

I can run the the control lists through a straighline distance calc and compare to event distance. We can flag up any that exceed the event distance. Does not mean you have the right control location.  In the Peak there are three villages all with the same name within 20 miles. But I don't think we need perfection. If the outline is good enough it will help riders decide whether they wish to enter a particular perm or indeed find perms with controls close to where they are looking.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 16, 2018, 11:42:08 am
"But I don't think we need perfection. . . . the outline is good enough"
This ^^^  Doesn't really even need to be the controls, provided we get the rough outline of the route generated. Prospective riders can go to the event itself for details. Think addition of the Ride Name would be a bonus.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: alfapete on September 16, 2018, 11:51:42 am
This is brilliant work, guys, and will be widely used by many.

We need to get you working on the website..... ;D
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 16, 2018, 02:34:43 pm
"But I don't think we need perfection. . . . the outline is good enough"
This ^^^  Doesn't really even need to be the controls, provided we get the rough outline of the route generated. Prospective riders can go to the event itself for details. Think addition of the Ride Name would be a bonus.

I have all the ride names, certainly in my spreadsheet on the PC. The ride names appear in the pop ups.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 16, 2018, 05:43:36 pm
Phil - I have done most of "SP's" (thus depriving Stephen of the enjoyment of so doing) and have discovered the diversity of his many routes.
If you know the perm, you know what you are buying when you press the button.
If you don't know the perm, then it's a gamble, sometimes it works, other times you get something which doesn't suit (like in my case above).
A repository with information helps, but I don't see how the OP can provide all the information needed (controls, number and locations, validation type: GPS? Photos?) without the cooperation of ALL the perm holders.

I will certainly buy perm cards again in the future, but not without doing a lot of homework ahead (like harassing the perm holder for details)... if this resource will help in that respect, great... but my issue wasn't route as such, that can be found for most perms on Ridewithgps or other resources...
If one doesn't "know" the perm, don't press the button - who'd do that? (except a gambler)
Many if not most of the perm event geographic details are on the event page (eg starting from where and the controls). Some are not and we'll need to ask the perm holders to help (either by providing the data to a willing other or better still going onto the sheet and filling it in) - that's the extent of the cooperation needed / hoped for.
In my experience, which may be even as limited as yours, perm holders are entirely content to be so-called "harrassed" for details. This is not "a lot of homework". This is sensible (normal) checking, before 'pressing the button
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 16, 2018, 05:57:16 pm
On the few occasions that I've done permanents I've started from home. The ones from Southport were particularly useful. The ride to Southport was part of the rides, and I finished at home.

So I'm not as concerned with where the ride starts from, as what the nearest point to my home is, or to those of relatives and friends.   
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 16, 2018, 06:40:12 pm
On the few occasions that I've done permanents I've started from home.  .  .  So I'm not as concerned with where the ride starts from, as what the nearest point to my home is, or to those of relatives and friends.
I see this project as meeting exactly that desire.
When I said "the perm event geographic details are on the event page (eg starting from where and the controls)" I recognised the fact that most perms can be 'started from anywhere' or at least join the route anywhere on it, but for data purposes the start control is often not so listed but needs to be added for this to map effectively.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: LEE on September 16, 2018, 06:46:14 pm
The Anoraks Delight 200* passed within 2 miles of my local town centre so I cleared it with the org to ride it as a Perm (many times) starting and finishing with a cashpoint receipt from a local bank.

*A lovely route actually.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 16, 2018, 06:59:49 pm
The Anoraks Delight 200* passed within 2 miles of my local town centre so I cleared it with the org to ride it as a Perm (many times) starting and finishing with a cashpoint receipt from a local bank.
*A lovely route actually.
Well if one goes to the perm site [ http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/mb02/ ] one gets this:
An anoraks delight 200: "200km permanent cycling event starting from .." and that's it
But the data (which a member of the anarchic team has entered, or maybe Mark himself) are:
Tadley, Odiham, New Alresford, Bishop's Waltham, Romsey, Amesbury, Andover, Tadley
which they've sourced from the Thames valley audax list of perms - https://sites.google.com/site/thamesvalleyaudax/what-is-audax/permanents
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 16, 2018, 08:34:20 pm
Have had to do a fair bit of digging for some of them; including but not limited to finding Calendar versions, club websites, rwgps links, links to threads here!
Also managed to figure out the controls for on (Daves Dale's Tour Plus) from a blog post written by a route checker although the "Plus" in it is a leg up a dead end dale to get an extra 40k, so all I could do with that was identify the furthers place up the dale with a café; hopefully accurate enough for this.

Then there's the obscure control descriptions found in them like Café at the top of the pass  ::-)

There's 148 still to have controls identified, which should now highlight in Red
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: yorkie on September 16, 2018, 08:37:58 pm
Great I will probably pick up again after the weekend and start merging control data into the mapping.  Just two events have their controls data in what is live at the moment. I do like the outline routes popping up when you having over them.  I can now see The Huddersfield Humber perm turns near me , so I might use that for one of my RRTY rides.
Erm, Phil, looking at the Huddersfield Star Wheelers 230km Humber Bridge permanent, I think you may have got the wrong Hatfield. I think they're using Hatfield in South Yorkshire (NE of Doncaster) not Hatfield, Herts! I think (from memory) you live somewhere near Stevenage (I may be wrong, forgive me if so!) which would make it more of a 700 to 800km perm!!  :jurek:
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 16, 2018, 08:43:51 pm
Great I will probably pick up again after the weekend and start merging control data into the mapping.  Just two events have their controls data in what is live at the moment. I do like the outline routes popping up when you having over them.  I can now see The Huddersfield Humber perm turns near me , so I might use that for one of my RRTY rides.
Erm, Phil, looking at the Huddersfield Star Wheelers 230km Humber Bridge permanent, I think you may have got the wrong Hatfield. I think they're using Hatfield in South Yorkshire (NE of Doncaster) not Hatfield, Herts! I think (from memory) you live somewhere near Stevenage (I may be wrong, forgive me if so!) which would make it more of a 700 to 800km perm!!  :jurek:

Yeah I noticed that when I looked at distance it was. If you can update the soreadsheet with the correct Hatfield that would be great. Place and county is usually good enough unless you have lots of Hatfields. We intend to run a sanity checker over the control data when I get time to check computed distance against actual.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: yorkie on September 16, 2018, 09:02:18 pm
Great I will probably pick up again after the weekend and start merging control data into the mapping.  Just two events have their controls data in what is live at the moment. I do like the outline routes popping up when you having over them.  I can now see The Huddersfield Humber perm turns near me , so I might use that for one of my RRTY rides.
Erm, Phil, looking at the Huddersfield Star Wheelers 230km Humber Bridge permanent, I think you may have got the wrong Hatfield. I think they're using Hatfield in South Yorkshire (NE of Doncaster) not Hatfield, Herts! I think (from memory) you live somewhere near Stevenage (I may be wrong, forgive me if so!) which would make it more of a 700 to 800km perm!!  :jurek:

Yeah I noticed that when I looked at distance it was. If you can update the soreadsheet with the correct Hatfield that would be great. Place and county is usually good enough unless you have lots of Hatfields. We intend to run a sanity checker over the control data when I get time to check computed distance against actual.
No problem, I've updated the Control Mapping page with the Lat;Long of the Tesco Express in the centre of Hatfield (Yorks) which has carried through to the first page, also marked NA05 as "Updated" on that page.

Hope that's correct?
Darryl
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 16, 2018, 09:02:53 pm
Also careful not to relocate any routes that go through other Hatfields; see Crossgates for how I've distinguished them when I spot it.

Edit: That's the only route going through a Hatfield
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 16, 2018, 09:20:17 pm
There's a few things I am thinking about / working on whilst the data is gathered and refined.

Filtering
Searching
Single Event presentation
Handling multiple events starting  at same location
Clustering events
Data organisation and build  on web page for fast dynamic map updates (does not affect spreadsheet master data).
Workflow


A prime example to consider is the cafe network map.  At its default zoom the UK disappears under a mass weight of icons.  There are better ways to handle what you show on a map at different zoom levels and make navigating the content easier.

I pushed the initial draft code and data onto the web and gave it a web address on Friday to validate it in standard browsers.  I hope to  announce version one by the end of this week once I have completed prototyping, some proof of concepts, and refinement of some of the above elements. Refinement can then be incremental in line with improvement in the data we hold.

A filling came out tonight so maybe not so much work on it tomorrow as a dentist visit takes priority.



Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: telstarbox on September 17, 2018, 10:02:44 am
For the Down to Downs perm, I've changed "Green Street Green" to "Green Street Green BR6" (and updated the lat-long) as it was previously pointing to the other Green Street Green (in DA2).
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 17, 2018, 10:08:39 am
Good stuff.

Turns out my dentist shut down without telling me and the building is now being redeveloped.  Oh joy.  So just off to register as a NHS patient at another dentists then I need to apply for an appointment tomorrow.  Might get some more done later today on the protyping later on and I will also pull the latest updates down to see how they translate to the mapping.  Depends on how the tooth is doing.  Just a dull throb at the moment.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: citoyen on September 17, 2018, 10:14:18 am
There are a couple I can fill in the details for (DW103 and DW104), but can someone give me an idiot's guide to how to format the information? I'm probably being dense but it's not obvious to me...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 17, 2018, 10:51:49 am
There are a couple I can fill in the details for (DW103 and DW104), but can someone give me an idiot's guide to how to format the information? I'm probably being dense but it's not obvious to me...

All that's really needed for events is the start control and the control list.
In the Controls column split the names with commas so: Control1, Control2, Control3

The control-co-ords will be worked out when the controls are added to the geocoded list, so you don't have to do that at the same time.
The geo-coding is a bit more technical but is "easier" as it can be done in batch and then checked when the maps are looked at later.

There's also the Extra Info column for any other info that may help us or to indicate where the info was obtained from.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: hulver on September 17, 2018, 11:27:07 am
I've filled in a few I've got the route sheets for (TF01, TF02, TF04, TF08), but not really sure where to get the GPS co-ordinates to fill in the controls list.

I've also got a route sheet for TF06, but it looks to be incorrect.

Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 17, 2018, 11:29:35 am
I've filled in a few I've got the route sheets for (TF01, TF02, TF04, TF08), but not really sure where to get the GPS co-ordinates to fill in the controls list.

I've also got a route sheet for TF06, but it looks to be incorrect.

If you've got a handful of controls to add you can use google maps
Right click on the spot you want and select "What's Here" a tiny box will appear at the bottom of the page with the gps co-ords, click that and if you're lucky google will put the co-ords into the search box in the top right. Copy that and drop it in.

Or just leave it and it'll be swept up by a geo-coding run at some point.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 17, 2018, 11:54:48 am
There are a couple I can fill in the details for (DW103 and DW104), but can someone give me an idiot's guide to how to format the information? I'm probably being dense but it's not obvious to me...

Control place and also the County if you know it.  Just put a space between town and county and before comma. That will help the gecoding along later.  Though a sanity check later on will most likely catch ones where we've picked up the right place (in terms of name) but have it in the wrong County.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: telstarbox on September 17, 2018, 11:57:28 am
Would it help to have a column for "nominal distance" of each perm? Then you can check the straightline distance between the geolocated controls and apply a check filter if this differs from the nominal distance by more than x%.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: hulver on September 17, 2018, 12:20:51 pm

If you've got a handful of controls to add you can use google maps
Right click on the spot you want and select "What's Here" a tiny box will appear at the bottom of the page with the gps co-ords, click that and if you're lucky google will put the co-ords into the search box in the top right. Copy that and drop it in.

Or just leave it and it'll be swept up by a geo-coding run at some point.

I've done that, as the control names from the route sheet weren't obvious where they are, unless you're following the route.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 17, 2018, 12:57:00 pm
Would it help to have a column for "nominal distance" of each perm? Then you can check the straightline distance between the geolocated controls and apply a check filter if this differs from the nominal distance by more than x%.

I have all the nominal distances for every event on the PC at home and in the data I load for the mapping.  So it can all be joined together.  The common attribute is the event number, which is the most accurate bit for such a join.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 18, 2018, 12:12:56 am
I have finished off Steve P's massive number (46?), and found a few others.
Provided the locations listed generate a fair representation of the route, the detail can be found from the organiser, once a rider has found a ride which suits. We do not seek to provide an alternate source of the controls for each event, for riding purposes (iyswim).
I think this examination of the 400+ listed perms (I must have looked at a third) could conclude that some organisers would be reasonably advised to include more detail on each of their events. And the Permanent Head Honcho (JW) could offer a mentoring service for those who offer 'sparse detail'.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: whosatthewheel on September 18, 2018, 09:31:55 am
. And the Permanent Head Honcho (JW) could offer a mentoring service for those who offer 'sparse detail'.

very ambitious...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 18, 2018, 12:15:19 pm
I have added the perm descriptions to the working Google Sheet.  Will be pulling down the data collected to parse it for map processing.  So I can see what it looks like and refine the visualization.

I have now added clustering of markers so you do not end up with a mass of marker icons at higher zoom levels. The clusters show how many perms sit beneath them. Click on a cluster and it expands out to the perms below. Note image below is old perm data, not the latest updates we now have in the working spreadsheet including controls.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9r9rb7af3blryg/cluster.PNG?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/h145cwfas52417b/cluster2.PNG?raw=1)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 18, 2018, 12:57:51 pm
Added in distance (to nearest 50 / 100km) and AAA to spreadsheet
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Greenbank on September 18, 2018, 01:55:53 pm
. And the Permanent Head Honcho (JW) could offer a mentoring service for those who offer 'sparse detail'.

very ambitious...

I offered that service to all organisers (calendar and perm) a few years ago via the organisers newsletter. I offered to do GPX routes, outline maps, elevation profiles, descriptions, etc - as much or as little as they wanted - all from whatever information that would give me (even just a routesheet) - emailed or posted.

I had a few other offers of help from people on here who wanted to share the workload. Those offers turned out to be unnecessary as, from what I can remember, only a single calendar organiser took me up on the offer.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 18, 2018, 03:50:52 pm
. And the Permanent Head Honcho (JW) could offer a mentoring service for those who offer 'sparse detail'.

very ambitious...
http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/JW06/
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 18, 2018, 06:05:46 pm
. And the Permanent Head Honcho (JW) could offer a mentoring service for those who offer 'sparse detail'.

very ambitious...
http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/JW06/

LOL
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 18, 2018, 10:13:39 pm
Hm, just spotted that the Control formula has gone out of synch with the rows when stuff was reordered; will fix.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 19, 2018, 10:16:14 am
I offered that service to all organisers (calendar and perm) . . . I offered to do GPX routes, outline maps, elevation profiles, descriptions, etc
After the joint work on this (which seems almost complete - only a few barebones no details events still without controls) I think it would be good to invite perm holders/organisers to include a basic set of information on the event page. Is there a structural reason (ie access to add/amend) why they cannot do this?

I realise there might be historic reasons why some rides are being left on the list with no detail AT ALL and without, even, the organiser's e-mail address (so the prospective rider can enquire (without resorting to snail mail) where the ride goes).
Should AUK specify a minimum set of data required for rides which merit retention/inclusion?

@Greenbank - add my name to those who would help in case you get a flurry of requests.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: frankly frankie on September 19, 2018, 12:11:31 pm
Permanent organisers have access to edit (most of) the details of their own perms, including start place, additional start info (labelled 'County'), keywords (searchable) and a verbose description of unlimited length that could include a list of controls.

Until about a month ago there was a bug that had gone unreported for a long time, that was writing the County line from the organisers home address into the additional start info field.  This incorrect info may in turn have contributed to some geocoding errors.

I notice there is currently a bug in both the Perms and Calendar events planner (again unreported) that interferes with the map widget that allows the org to set a Gpoint (lat-long) for the Start.  Google Maps playing silly again - I can guess what the problem might be and hopfully it'll be fixed soon.  EDIT: oh I see it's affecting all Gmaps on aukweb, not just the widget.

Geocoding the controls is certainly an interesting project and especially valuable for Permanents because of the convention that they can be started from any point.  Currently aukweb doesn't have any data provision for this though it's certainly been thought about a few times.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 19, 2018, 01:26:01 pm
I notice there is currently a bug in both the Perms and Calendar events planner (again unreported) that interferes with the map widget that allows the org to set a Gpoint (lat-long) for the Start.  Google Maps playing silly again - I can guess what the problem might be and hopfully it'll be fixed soon.  EDIT: oh I see it's affecting all Gmaps on aukweb, not just the widget.

You can see anything on Google Map widgets? Since they changed how they bill for their API usage pretty much every website I visit that uses Google Maps has dingied them and left it broken.


We briefly passed the 1000 control location mark last night, but I spotted around 10 duplicate locations in a quick scan and it went back below the 1000 mark.
(Things like Berwick-Upon-Tweed, Berwick Upon Tweed and Berwick On Tweed; and misspellings of Ffestiniog)

Can genuinely claim that AUK could take you to 1000's of different places...  :P
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 19, 2018, 01:36:28 pm
Just been finding missing entries and correcting spellings. The lookup for coordinates does not like extra spaces before or after comma. So been sorting out those control entries.   

Mapquest,
Google,
Nominatim
My knowledge of place names.

Got me there in the end.

Just done a fresh down load and parsing it now.

Getting excited as soon I will see all these controls together on a map
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 19, 2018, 03:09:29 pm
With latest data.   Need to improve the way popups work, and add red dots for control locations but we getting closer to prime time I think.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/c7s2mv1azqt00zc/permie%20map.png?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0mfubplu9hbzmew/iom%20map.png?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/yjubj9hgkyhg4ur/iom2%20map.png?raw=1)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 19, 2018, 04:17:39 pm
Once you overlay the control data we have generated, you realise that there is a control in virtually every part of the Country. So to hop on a perm you likely do not need to go far.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/q1d6c7rpcm90dft/Controls.PNG?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/uk5epermp4sueuy/control2.PNG?raw=1)

That is enough for today.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 19, 2018, 05:34:07 pm
Well done Phil and FE.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: lastant on September 19, 2018, 05:34:30 pm
This is looking excellent, thank you to everyone for their efforts!
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 19, 2018, 05:57:54 pm
Looks like I've geocoded the wrong Kilchoan, it should be the one on Ardnamurchan...
Although I can't see on on the OS map of Barra either so hm... WTF mapquest
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 19, 2018, 06:33:50 pm
Have a look at Linda Jonhston's events as well. They appear in Norway on mapping. The perm descriptions indicate they are Brittany based rides.  Three are names of French towns, so they can be indicated as atarting there, and the other ones I would just put the starts as Roscoff  till we know better.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 19, 2018, 06:37:07 pm
Certainly got me eyeing up controls near me.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 19, 2018, 07:21:01 pm
Have a look at Linda Jonhston's events as well. They appear in Norway on mapping. The perm descriptions indicate they are Brittany based rides.  Three are names of French towns, so they can be indicated as atarting there, and the other ones I would just put the starts as Roscoff  till we know better.

You've found the easter egg...

Any perm marked as No details of controls on route
Is currently mapped to Hell, Norway

Can remove it now  ;D

Reckon that's a good way of identifying Perms with only start points; will do that.
Can probably then get a report on the number of controls listed on the control list, and where it's too low for the perm length highlight them as needing attention.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 19, 2018, 07:51:40 pm
Found this for Hidden Brittany
http://www.ctcdevon.co.uk/hidbritt.htm
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 19, 2018, 08:27:57 pm
Only a handful now with no controls stated after setting the start control or an approximation of in place
Jim Hoppers Peak District Permanent
and Chris Crossland's "West Yorkshire" rides

Suppose I could just batter Leeds in...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: IanDG on September 19, 2018, 08:34:38 pm
Great work Phil :)

Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 19, 2018, 08:38:56 pm
Bung in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mytholmroyd for Chris Crossland's perms. His calendar events start there. It will do as a starting point for them.

http://www.westyorkshiresr.org.uk/permanents/
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 19, 2018, 08:54:06 pm
That leaves only the Peak District Permanent without at least a start location listed as the departe/arrivee


I'm off to Blackpool-Glasgow-Blackpool this weekend so that's probably the last of my contribution capacity until Tuesday.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 19, 2018, 10:32:00 pm
When I did the Peak Permanent, I started from Jim's home. He rode round with me and told me the info answer when I couldn't find it. Well, it was my first ever permanent.

Just list Jim's village as the start or even Lichfield.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 19, 2018, 10:50:26 pm
Lichfield it is.

That's all Perms got a start location and control list of some form.
Some are just the start/end points
Some are based off route descriptions found
Some are definitely the controls.

That should do it as an initial dataset eh!?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on September 20, 2018, 02:19:12 pm
Where/how do we access this map?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 20, 2018, 03:50:01 pm
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=69367.150
Earlier (2013!) thread
NB not the answer to your question, James. I think Phil W stated his intent in the early posts of this thread. He hoped to have it accessible shortly.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mattc on September 20, 2018, 08:24:42 pm
There is a prescient comment on that thread:

Arguably, however, this is a poor use of developer time, as perms are a niche within a niche.


(Sorry Billy!  ;D )
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 20, 2018, 09:12:55 pm
Have a look at Linda Jonhston's events as well. They appear in Norway on mapping. The perm descriptions indicate they are Brittany based rides.  Three are names of French towns, so they can be indicated as atarting there, and the other ones I would just put the starts as Roscoff  till we know better.
I've managed to source the routes of most (but not all) of Linda Johnston's events, some with a tranche of guesswork interpolation.
I've applied the same methodology to GB05.
Someone must know where Andy's Northern Pennines Grimpeur goes.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: R_nger on September 20, 2018, 09:39:03 pm
Does reply 96 of the following thread give any clues ?

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=24196.75 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=24196.75)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 20, 2018, 09:53:12 pm
Thank you @R_nger. I had looked at that but only a couple of controls noted. But I've just found it (where Andy's Northern Pennines Grimpeur goes) via
http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Northern-Pennines
and the downloaded gpx gives:
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/28640097
These locations (most of which must be controls) describe the route:
Burnley, Clitheroe, Slaidburn, Ingleton, Hawes, Low Row, Barnard Castle, St John's Chapel, Langley (W of Hexham), Hexham, Stanhope, Barnard Castle, Low Row, Hawes, Ingleton, Slaidburn, Clitheroe, Burnley
Some spookily familiar sections I've enjoyed on Mille Pennines 2016 (first half) and 2017 (lanterne rouge).
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ian H on September 20, 2018, 10:43:35 pm
I have just added gpx files for my two 100s and the Exmoor & Coast 200 on ukcyclist.co.uk, because someone has just entered all three.  Some of the others have gpx files, or I can supply them.  I shall catch up eventually.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 21, 2018, 04:04:02 pm
I have completed some more and highlighted in yellow (on the XX99 identifier) all those 200+ which need detail - less than 25 - 9 different custodians. I've based Hummer's Lumpy End-to-End on his route, as shared on here (in 2013).
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 21, 2018, 06:21:25 pm
Hopefully accessible some time next week. Haven't been able to do any more work on it this week. Good work on the rest of the perm data. 
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 26, 2018, 07:02:26 pm
Bit more work converting proof of concepts into self contained components that you can compose to form the whole. Also ensuring it places nice on mobile / tablets. Plus some geocoding of the new perm control information that has been added by others.  Bit busy with real life but getting there.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ezqzg904d9h2yf/Capture.PNG?raw=1)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Somnolent on September 26, 2018, 09:32:51 pm
Where/how do we access this map?

Did you find out?
I have no idea either.  OP makes mention of FB but can't find any trace of it there either.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 26, 2018, 10:29:08 pm
Where/how do we access this map?

Did you find out?
I have no idea either.  OP makes mention of FB but can't find any trace of it there either.

Probably about another week till I share its web address. Got a 400 DIY this weekend then should finish off the final bits. About three things to complete then we are there.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 27, 2018, 02:29:25 pm
Thank you, Phil. Sorry to find so many 'new' controls for you to geocode.
Applecross
Argenton
Ashbourne
Brest
Chateaulin
Crowland
Eyam
Gainsbrough
Howden
Kerlouan
Mere
Netheravon
Parwich
Plougenvelin
Ramsbury
Retford
Sutton-On-Sea
Tutbury
Uttoxeter
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 27, 2018, 04:28:52 pm
No worries about new controls.  I will run with my data extract of yesterday for now.

Clicking on a control now adds all the events that pass through that control to the top of your list of events. Clicking on an event adds it to the top of your list of events (deduplicating events in the list in both cases)   Clicking the X next to an event removes it from the list.  Your list of events is now persisted across browser sessions.  You can collapse / expand the Events and Filters sections on the menu.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/bbm561i99u0mmnf/progress.PNG?raw=1)

Next is to activate the distance filtering and to show the event detail when you click on an event in the list.  They are two sides of the same coin as they both need to update the map view.   So will tackle these together next week.    Then I think we are ready for launch.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Greenbank on September 27, 2018, 04:46:55 pm
Is that Phase I done? Are you going to be sending in the bill soon?

 ;) <---- a smiley
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 27, 2018, 08:29:27 pm
I am going to have to put it behind a Paywall, sure you understand. ;D
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 28, 2018, 01:20:54 am
Updated the George Berwick ones today, went to visit him today as doing this has got me very interested in riding his 400, 600 and 1500!!!
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 28, 2018, 08:05:44 am
That's the thing isn't it?  It is revealing a whole new set of perms that pass by that I had no idea about.  Some of the grand tours look great.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 28, 2018, 02:51:20 pm
Almost there, one last bit to do, around event detail, which will now be next week.  Distance filters and zooming to a selected event now wired up.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/whty992r65dy7g7/perm_almost.PNG?raw=1)

Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Greenbank on September 28, 2018, 03:13:47 pm
Looks excellent. Any plans to a similar thing for calendar events?

I realise the time dimension adds to the complexity. Also you won't be able to start/finish at any of the intermediate controls, but it's still nice to see where a ride goes rather than having to guess...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: telstarbox on September 28, 2018, 04:20:52 pm
It's probably less critical for the Calendar because 1) on average they have more information on Aukweb than the Perms and often a supporting YACF thread; 2) more people ride them so it's easier to find Strava or RideWithGPS logs from previous years.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 28, 2018, 04:31:15 pm
The event data is pluggable if that makes sense.  The idea is that in the future by swapping out a single module the data could be provided through consuming a backend API.  So if we had the calendar data in the same format (extra data such as dates doesn't matter as the mapping consumes JSON) then it could be plugged straight in.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Greenbank on September 28, 2018, 06:46:30 pm
The current map attached to the aukweb calendar is good, but what's missing is to see where the rides go.

I normally look at that with two questions in mind:-

a) I've got a specific weekend free, where are there rides (and what length are they) on those specific dates

b) I'd like to see where all of the local-ish rides in the next N months so I can see if I can plan ahead and book those in.

The existing site does do this, but it doesn't show me where the rides go like your new shiny stuff does for perms. If there are 20 or so different rides that meet my criteria I've got to do a lot of clicking through to the individual events to see if one of them grabs my fancy.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 28, 2018, 06:49:06 pm
That's the thing isn't it?  It is revealing a whole new set of perms that pass by that I had no idea about.  Some of the grand tours look great.

Yes, I discovered the Scottish Star allows for a minimum of 200km a day for 13 days;
and the Round the coast requires 240km a day so just under 9 and a half days.
Which makes them both rather doable as light touring despite their 2000km+ distance.
Careful planning on RWGPS will also let you avoid the busier roads in most places on them too, and going anti-clockwise means most of the NC500 traffic is oncoming.

What's more the control locations are mostly well spread so I've been plotting away in RWGPS for them and working out more palatable routes than the direct option, and if you are willing to put a bit of night riding into them too (so give yourself a couple of tougher days) you can avoid the A82 sections at its worst.

I've just printed off entry forms and written cheques (for the first time in 4 and a half years!) for myself and another rider to do the Kingdom Come as an early winter challenge.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on September 29, 2018, 09:31:30 pm
Sleuthing has revealed Oliver Wright's routes (OW01 and OW02), roughly - updated.
And I've had a good guess at Tom Hanley's ones (TH01-04)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 30, 2018, 03:02:32 pm
The Scottish star does indeed look like a star when you plot straight lines between sequenced controls on the map.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 30, 2018, 03:59:37 pm
The Scottish star does indeed look like a star when you plot straight lines between sequenced controls on the map.

I've done a rough bash at it in RWGPS as well; basically set it to walking and put in both the control points and the suggested waypoints
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/28690601

You get to do it at 200km a day

For me I think that one has a bit too much futility in it!
Round the Coast looks quite interesting: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/28682509
You get 240km a day on that; which seems pretty doable if you build up to it.

And the Eightsome Reel looks pretty decent https://ridewithgps.com/routes/28682272
You need to maintain 12kmh on that one; which fits with the 300km a day described in the report on here a few years ago.

None of those RWGPS routes are suitable for following

Not too sure how you get proof of passage at Lighthouses these days as the NLB is fully automated, but George talked of the NLB keepers treating him to tea and cakes!

I also like how on the info sheets the "Things to watch for"
All of them say "Traffic, Animals, Midges and Day Dreaming"
Except for the Twilight 600 which tells you to watch for "Traffic, Animals, Midges and Night Dreaming"
 ;)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on September 30, 2018, 04:51:19 pm
We had light house controls on WAWA 16.  (Because basically every west coast headland jutting out in the Atlantic that had a road on it, you rode to the end). You got a selfie in front. Some of them had plaques on them from which you found the answer to a Q on your brevet.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 01, 2018, 05:37:47 pm
Pretty much ready to go prime time tomorrow. 

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/huaxknlft1jdbke/Scottish%20star.PNG?raw=1)

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/9d8st383g2xjybr/detail.png?raw=1)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 02, 2018, 03:46:33 pm
Is that still off an old dataset; notice a few of the rides and controls I added last week aren't showing.
(Mostly round the coast and the eight some reel)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: alfapete on October 02, 2018, 03:50:33 pm
Brilliant, brilliant work, Phil and Fifeing.
Have spotted a correction and have sent this by PM rather than clutter up the forum.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: hulver on October 02, 2018, 03:56:26 pm
Fantastic work.

It is easy to spot errors now though, noticed quite a few.

Will you still be updating from the original spreadsheet linked at the beginning of this thread?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 02, 2018, 03:57:53 pm
Is that still off an old dataset; notice a few of the rides and controls I added last week aren't showing.
(Mostly round the coast and the eight some reel)

Yeah I tend not to pull fresh data whilst the code is in flux. Then I know any errors are down to code changes I have made and not changes in data as well.    Code should remain stable for a bit now. So we can concentrate on any errors  in the geocoding / control locations etc.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 02, 2018, 03:58:50 pm
Fantastic work.

It is easy to spot errors now though, noticed quite a few.

Will you still be updating from the original spreadsheet linked at the beginning of this thread?

Yes keep updating that and I will pull fresh copies about once a week or so.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: psyclist on October 02, 2018, 04:04:38 pm
How do you use the mobile version? I can see numbers in green circles, but tapping then just takes me to the filter view. How do you then select a route to see where it goes?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 02, 2018, 04:12:49 pm
How do you use the mobile version? I can see numbers in green circles, but tapping then just takes me to the filter view. How do you then select a route to see where it goes?

Tap on an event or control on the map. That will open the menu (filter view as you call it) with the event or list of events above the filters. Tap on an event in that list to bring up its detail.  Tapping the clusters with numbers should zoom you in, well it does on my old 32 bit 3-gen iPad and my Android phone.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: psyclist on October 02, 2018, 04:29:16 pm
Thanks, just user error. Looks like it’ll be useful, so thanks for all the effort in putting it together.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 02, 2018, 04:49:56 pm
If you spot errors then do either correct in the spreadsheet linked in first post on here. Or you can email duff-data@long-distance.rocks with enough detail for a correction to be made.

I have noticed A&S 400 gors to Wells near Cheddar.  So can correct that when i get a chance to update the spreadsheet myself.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: hulver on October 02, 2018, 05:08:21 pm
I'm not sure if I don't know how to use it, or I'm just using it wrong.

When I zoom in on an area, then click on a dot to show rides near that control, if I click on a ride and then go back to the menu, there doesn't seem to be anyway of getting back to my original "show dots on the map" view without clicking "All filtered events", which then jumps me back out to the zoomed out map again.

Am I just doing it wrong?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: grams on October 02, 2018, 05:34:17 pm
Nice. I’ve already found a few rides I didn’t know existed.

I concur with Hulver’s comment above. If you could make it one click to get from control to seeing the route (when there’s only one) and one click to get back from there to browsing (without the position changing), that would be awesome.

Also, could the clustering be dialled back a bit when zoomed in?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Feanor on October 02, 2018, 05:51:59 pm
Will correct Snow Roads Rhynie control which seems to have moved to Wales.
ETA: Done, on spreadsheet.

Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mattc on October 02, 2018, 06:13:40 pm
If you spot errors then do either correct in the spreadsheet linked in first post on here. Or you can email duff-data@long-distance.rocks with enough detail for a correction to be made.
Quick thought about the errors; the majority tend to show up as enormous "legs" in the route. Is it worth running a rough analysis of your routes just looking for legs > XYZkm ?

(of course that would mean YOU fixing them, rather than getting the CROWD to fix them!  :hand:  :)  )
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 02, 2018, 06:18:11 pm
If you spot errors then do either correct in the spreadsheet linked in first post on here. Or you can email duff-data@long-distance.rocks with enough detail for a correction to be made.
Quick thought about the errors; the majority tend to show up as enormous "legs" in the route. Is it worth running a rough analysis of your routes just looking for legs > XYZkm ?

(of course that would mean YOU fixing them, rather than getting the CROWD to fix them!  :hand:  :)  )

Well Matt you could download the spreadsheet which has all the data you need and do that yourself if you want to get ahead of the crowd :hand: ;D
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 02, 2018, 06:31:04 pm
Nice. I’ve already found a few rides I didn’t know existed.

I concur with Hulver’s comment above. If you could make it one click to get from control to seeing the route (when there’s only one) and one click to get back from there to browsing (without the position changing), that would be awesome.

Also, could the clustering be dialled back a bit when zoomed in?

Not going to touch the mapping code for a while now, but noted.  Will take a look at latest data tomorrow as I last pulled the mapping copy last Thu. Be nice to refresh with latest updates.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 02, 2018, 06:34:46 pm
@Matt The checking for obvious over distance events (due incorrect lat / lon of one or more controls) was on our list. Will see about adding something into the script that refreshes the data. I have had the equations for the distance calc open in a browser window for long enough.

Then any that come out in the list you can work on correcting.  ;D
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mattc on October 02, 2018, 06:51:49 pm
@Matt The checking for obvious over distance events (due incorrect lat / lon of one or more controls) was on our list.

Doh!  :facepalm:

Yes of course - over-distance total is a much better way of checking. Touché!

(EDIT: I've emailed an error, no Geocode sorry ... )
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: telstarbox on October 02, 2018, 06:57:35 pm
Just had a quick look on my Android phone (Moto G5) and it works very well. Good work Phil and helpers.

If anyone is correcting stuff now, the "Medway Meander" has an incorrect control - World of Water should be near Tenterden iirc.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: JonBuoy on October 02, 2018, 07:48:42 pm
Seatoller had slipped a long way south.  I think that I have corrected it.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ian H on October 02, 2018, 08:17:12 pm
I've just emailed McDuff with three corrections.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: αdαmsκι on October 02, 2018, 08:55:14 pm
Cracking work.

FYI "Round the Plains", "Le Tour des Neuf Chevaux Blancs" and "Denmead 600" all have controls in WIlton in Hampshire but the map is showing them as Wilton in Cumbria
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 02, 2018, 08:55:40 pm
I seem to have mapped Lochinver to a house in Potters Bar...
In the scheme of missmappings it's never going to get near the worse I've ever managed; but I do work in Healthcare IT so...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 02, 2018, 09:02:43 pm
Just had a quick look on my Android phone (Moto G5) and it works very well. Good work Phil and helpers.

If anyone is correcting stuff now, the "Medway Meander" has an incorrect control - World of Water should be near Tenterden iirc.

Have corrected starting at the bottom and got here.

The current mapping is to World of Water in Watford at 51.686506,-0.432595
Searching for World of Water Tenterden gives me 51.036408, 0.611421 which is World of Water Rolvenden!
Which I've changed it to.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 02, 2018, 09:13:43 pm
If you spot errors then do either correct in the spreadsheet linked in first post on here. Or you can email duff-data@long-distance.rocks with enough detail for a correction to be made.

I have noticed A&S 400 gors to Wells near Cheddar.  So can correct that when i get a chance to update the spreadsheet myself.

Just differentiated between "Wells (Somerset)" and "Wells Next The Sea" in that fashion
Also spotted a Wick in one of the South West rides and it wasn't long enough to be Wick, Caithness so that's also been differentiated in similar manner
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Deano on October 02, 2018, 09:20:08 pm
Looks like all rides with Ingleton as a control are using the one in County Durham rather than the one in Yorkshire.

Not the first time the mistake's been made, but it's usually the other way around... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-27883768
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: BeMoreMike on October 02, 2018, 09:23:30 pm
I've corrected Hatton on the spreadsheet, from the one near Warwick to the one between Uttoxeter & Burton on Trent.

This is a great piece of work Phil, anyone that rides perms away from their local area will find this very useful.
I've been looking for a possible route to use in a couple of weeks from near Goldalming, an area i know nothing about about. It took me less than a minute of looking at your map to find a suitable one.

Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mcshroom on October 02, 2018, 09:23:50 pm
Cracking work.

FYI "Round the Plains", "Le Tour des Neuf Chevaux Blancs" and "Denmead 600" all have controls in WIlton in Hampshire but the map is showing them as Wilton in Cumbria

I was just coming on to mention those. I notice the Tour des Neuf Chevaux Blancs has Uffington somewhere in the east midlands rather than in Wiltshire as well.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 02, 2018, 09:38:18 pm
There's also an Uffington on the "South East Oxford Loop" although it starts at Cheltenham so would they both be Wiltshire one?


Hatton appears in both the "National Arboretum Permanent" from Derbyshire
and the "Totmonslow" from Macclesfield
So reckon that ones ok as remapped.

Ingleton
Now mapped seperatley (just in case...)
Ingleton NYorks
Ingleton County Durham
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: U.N.Dulates on October 02, 2018, 10:20:04 pm
Wellington for all my events should be the one in Shropshire, not Somerset.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Neil C on October 02, 2018, 11:01:07 pm
Thanks Phil, it looks really useful.

I have noticed a couple of issues with rides local to me.

JWA01 "Surrey Hills" has a control at Coldharbour but the map shows a Coldharbour in Gloucestershire. I changed the lat/long to the correct Coldharbour for this ride and I don't think any rides use the Glos one.

Clicking on Richmond upon Thames on the map brings up "The Ditchling Devil" which is correct, but also DA01, DA04, DA05 and AC19 which start or control in Richmond in North Yorkshire. I wasn't sure how to add a new control to the list so have left it for a more competent person.

DA02 and DA03 start in Richmond, North Yorkshire but as "Richmond" isn't in the control list they don't appear in either place on the map.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 07:54:42 am
Cheers Neil will sort
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 08:02:14 am
Wellington for all my events should be the one in Shropshire, not Somerset.

Sorted
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 08:06:22 am
Thanks Phil, it looks really useful.

I have noticed a couple of issues with rides local to me.

JWA01 "Surrey Hills" has a control at Coldharbour but the map shows a Coldharbour in Gloucestershire. I changed the lat/long to the correct Coldharbour for this ride and I don't think any rides use the Glos one.

Clicking on Richmond upon Thames on the map brings up "The Ditchling Devil" which is correct, but also DA01, DA04, DA05 and AC19 which start or control in Richmond in North Yorkshire. I wasn't sure how to add a new control to the list so have left it for a more competent person.

DA02 and DA03 start in Richmond, North Yorkshire but as "Richmond" isn't in the control list they don't appear in either place on the map.

Sorted. Will show later when map data refreshed
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 09:00:52 am
Latest spreadsheet updates now loaded for mapping including corrections above.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 09:18:58 am
Hi,

I have run the Haversine equations over the data to calculate the straight line distance between stated controls. The following almost certainly have an incorrectly placed control.  I have put my name against the first ones I am going to tackle. If others could do the same.

AC03  Phil
AC15 Phil
AC17 Phil
AC20 Phil
AC24 Phil
AC25 Phil
AC27 Phil
AC28 Phil
AC29 Phil
AR02
CB22
CB28
CB39
CB40
CC03
CC05
CC07
CG01
CKR02
CKR03
CKR06
CKR07
CKR08
DA03
DA04
DHU01
DHU07
DHU09
DHU12
DM03
DM05
DM06
GB02
GB03
GB04
IH10
JHA04
JHA08
JHA13
JHA25
JPE01
JPE02
JPE05
JT01
LJ02
MH04
MH99
ML01
MM03
MR09
MR10
MW09
MW19
MW20
MW23
NA05
NH02
NH03
NH04
PH02
PH05
PL01
PL03
PST01
SB02
SJ01
SJ02
SJ03
SJ04
SP01
SP02
SP08
SP09
SP10
SP22
SP26
SP32
SP35
SP37
SP45
SSH07
SSH10
SSN02
SSN03
SSN04
TF09
TF10
TF12
TF13
WPO01
WPO03
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: U.N.Dulates on October 03, 2018, 09:37:50 am
Will take a look at my 4 (JHA...).
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: David H on October 03, 2018, 09:45:29 am
Any chance someone could re-post the URL please.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 09:46:59 am
Any chance someone could re-post the URL please.

Bottom of opening post
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 09:50:13 am
Updated list fo what is being corrected after being picked up as overdistance in straight line control distance.

AC03  Phil - done
AC15 Phil - done
AC17 Phil - done
AC20 Phil - done
AC24 Phil - done
AC25 Phil - done
AC27 Phil - done
AC28 Phil - done
AC29 Phil - done
AR02 Phil
CB22 Phil
CB28 Phil
CB39 Phil
CB40 Phil
CC03 Phil
CC05 Phil
CC07 Phil
CG01 Phil
CKR02 Phil
CKR03 Phil
CKR06 Phil
CKR07 Phil
CKR08 Phil
DA03 Phil
DA04 Phil
DHU01
DHU07
DHU09
DHU12
DM03
DM05
DM06
GB02
GB03
GB04
IH10
JHA04 Undulates
JHA08 Undulates
JHA13 Undulates
JHA25
JPE01
JPE02
JPE05
JT01
LJ02
MH04
MH99
ML01
MM03
MR09
MR10
MW09
MW19
MW20
MW23
NA05
NH02
NH03
NH04
PH02
PH05
PL01
PL03
PST01
SB02
SJ01
SJ02
SJ03
SJ04
SP01
SP02
SP08
SP09
SP10
SP22
SP26
SP32
SP35
SP37
SP45
SSH07
SSH10
SSN02
SSN03
SSN04
TF09
TF10
TF12
TF13
WPO01
WPO03
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 03, 2018, 09:54:25 am
Thanks Phil, it looks really useful.

I have noticed a couple of issues with rides local to me.

JWA01 "Surrey Hills" has a control at Coldharbour but the map shows a Coldharbour in Gloucestershire. I changed the lat/long to the correct Coldharbour for this ride and I don't think any rides use the Glos one.

Clicking on Richmond upon Thames on the map brings up "The Ditchling Devil" which is correct, but also DA01, DA04, DA05 and AC19 which start or control in Richmond in North Yorkshire. I wasn't sure how to add a new control to the list so have left it for a more competent person.

DA02 and DA03 start in Richmond, North Yorkshire but as "Richmond" isn't in the control list they don't appear in either place on the map.

Bah, thought I'd sorted them, IIRC I did it as "Richmond NYorks"; can't see the data from here though.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 10:20:22 am
Thanks Phil, it looks really useful.

I have noticed a couple of issues with rides local to me.

JWA01 "Surrey Hills" has a control at Coldharbour but the map shows a Coldharbour in Gloucestershire. I changed the lat/long to the correct Coldharbour for this ride and I don't think any rides use the Glos one.

Clicking on Richmond upon Thames on the map brings up "The Ditchling Devil" which is correct, but also DA01, DA04, DA05 and AC19 which start or control in Richmond in North Yorkshire. I wasn't sure how to add a new control to the list so have left it for a more competent person.

DA02 and DA03 start in Richmond, North Yorkshire but as "Richmond" isn't in the control list they don't appear in either place on the map.

Bah, thought I'd sorted them, IIRC I did it as "Richmond NYorks"; can't see the data from here though.

All sorted, not too worry.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 10:21:36 am
I'm not sure if I don't know how to use it, or I'm just using it wrong.

When I zoom in on an area, then click on a dot to show rides near that control, if I click on a ride and then go back to the menu, there doesn't seem to be anyway of getting back to my original "show dots on the map" view without clicking "All filtered events", which then jumps me back out to the zoomed out map again.

Am I just doing it wrong?

Right it only zooms out to show entire set of marker clusters on first load now. If switching between an event and all events it leaves the map as it is.  It was driving me mad as I went through looking for the mistakes in control locations!
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 03, 2018, 10:28:45 am
GB02 - Scottish Star - Nothing looks out of place
GB03 - Round the Coast, Location of Oban is wrong; but otherwise looks right - I found this to be 100km overdistance when I RWGPSed it
GB04 - Eightsome reel - Also looks right, could be considerably underdistance at straight line?

really must do work...
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: citoyen on October 03, 2018, 10:43:29 am
I had a look at the website, very impressed. Thought I'd check out my own perm (DK01) to see how it looks but couldn't find it. Turns out that's because it was missing the start/finish from the list of controls... I've now added those to the document.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Neil C on October 03, 2018, 10:49:49 am
PST01 - Moved Ashington control from Northumberland to Sussex

SP08, SP35 - Repatriated St Clears from a cul-de-sac in Reigate back to Wales

MR09, MR10 - Repatriated Lochinver from Potters Bar back to Scotland
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 03, 2018, 10:50:00 am
Any chance someone could re-post the URL please.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z1c5nUgnwHjr2a7Xt6Wm9DvcRX5D7hHorBTDmJa_27s/edit#gid=0
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 11:41:14 am
You can now go directly to an event by adding the event no to the end of the url.

Such as https://long-distance.rocks/auk/map/perms/AC03

Might make loooking at the highlighted over distance a bit quicker.



Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 03, 2018, 11:48:39 am
JPE05
TF09
TF10
TF12
TF13
Sorted (Biggin, Hatton)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 03, 2018, 12:00:14 pm
I have run the Haversine equations over the data to calculate the straight line distance between stated controls. The following almost certainly have an incorrectly placed control.  I have put my name against the first ones I am going to tackle. If others could do the same.
I have pasted this list onto 'Sheet 5' so checkers are best to go there and note ID against ones they will do or have done.
Without teaching grannies to suck eggs, when someone finds a lat/long which is 'wrong' before correcting it (I'm using Streetmap.co.uk) they need to search the spreadsheet for all the other instances of that control name and check that there aren't two places of the same name being used for this effort. For example (in Tom Fox's from Alfreton) I've changed Sudbury to Sudbury Derbyshire, as there was another Sudbury in East Anglia being used, and inserted Sudbury Derbyshire and its lat/long in the Control Mapping.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Pingu on October 03, 2018, 12:11:51 pm
Anyone noticed that Crossgates on the Kingdom Come 400 is in the wrong place?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 12:28:02 pm
AR02
CB22
CB28
CB39
CB40
CC03
CC05
CC07
CG01
CKR02
CKR03
CKR06
CKR07
CKR08
DA03
DA04


All done
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 12:30:33 pm
DHU01
DHU07
DHU09
DHU12
DM03
DM05
DM06
GB02
GB03
GB04
IH10

Done. Usually just the one control which is obvious when you see on map.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 12:44:19 pm
Right going to pull the data down again for the mapping and see what that leaves us.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 03, 2018, 12:55:07 pm
Anyone noticed that Crossgates on the Kingdom Come 400 is in the wrong place?

Ok that's just bizzare; the most likely confusion with Crossgates in Fife is between Crossgates the village and the Crossgate in Cupar; but no it's picked up the set of houses in Pitlessie called Crossgates; fairly sure there won't be any controls at that unless someone buys a house there and is happy to stamp cards on demand!

I'd originally had to force that one to map to fife as there are other Crossgates in the world!

At least it wasn't Windygates.

Cannae fix it from here though.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Feanor on October 03, 2018, 12:59:58 pm
Anyone noticed that Crossgates on the Kingdom Come 400 is in the wrong place?

Ok that's just bizzare; the most likely confusion with Crossgates in Fife is between Crossgates the village and the Crossgate in Cupar; but no it's picked up the set of houses in Pitlessie called Crossgates; fairly sure there won't be any controls at that unless someone buys a house there and is happy to stamp cards on demand!

I'd originally had to force that one to map to fife as there are other Crossgates in the world!

At least it wasn't Windygates.

Cannae fix it from here though.

I'll fix it once this tedious conference call is done.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Pingu on October 03, 2018, 01:04:09 pm
Anyone noticed that Crossgates on the Kingdom Come 400 is in the wrong place?

Ok that's just bizzare; the most likely confusion with Crossgates in Fife is between Crossgates the village and the Crossgate in Cupar; but no it's picked up the set of houses in Pitlessie called Crossgates; fairly sure there won't be any controls at that unless someone buys a house there and is happy to stamp cards on demand!

I'd originally had to force that one to map to fife as there are other Crossgates in the world!

At least it wasn't Windygates.

Cannae fix it from here though.

I'll fix it once this tedious conference call is done.

Ta, I can't easily do it from work.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 01:06:26 pm
DM05 Phil
JPE01 Phil
JPE02 Phil
JT01 Phil
LJ02 Phil
MH04 Phil
MM03 Phil
MW09 Phil
MW19 Phil
MW20 Phil
MW23  Phil
NA05  Phil
NH02  Phil
NH03  Phil
NH04  Phil
PH02  Phil
PH05  Phil
PL03  Phil

Done
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 01:47:18 pm
Working on

SB02
SP22
SP32
SP37
SP45
SSH07
SSH10
SSN02
SSN03
SSN04
WPO01
WPO03
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 03, 2018, 02:00:17 pm
Have already done SP32
SP22 wrong'un is 'Moreton'
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Feanor on October 03, 2018, 02:11:02 pm
Anyone noticed that Crossgates on the Kingdom Come 400 is in the wrong place?

Ok that's just bizzare; the most likely confusion with Crossgates in Fife is between Crossgates the village and the Crossgate in Cupar; but no it's picked up the set of houses in Pitlessie called Crossgates; fairly sure there won't be any controls at that unless someone buys a house there and is happy to stamp cards on demand!

I'd originally had to force that one to map to fife as there are other Crossgates in the world!

At least it wasn't Windygates.

Cannae fix it from here though.

I'll fix it once this tedious conference call is done.

Ta, I can't easily do it from work.

Done.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 02:54:26 pm
Working on

SB02
SP22
SP32
SP37
SP45
SSH07
SSH10
SSN02
SSN03
SSN04
WPO01
WPO03

Done
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: hulver on October 03, 2018, 03:04:19 pm
Something appears to have gone wrong with the latest update.

(https://i.imgur.com/NlB7Y5k.png)

I don't remember Eskdalemuir being near Hull. (Ride TH02), but TH01 is all over the place as well.

Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Feanor on October 03, 2018, 03:10:07 pm
Something appears to have gone wrong with the latest update.

I don't remember Eskdalemuir being near Hull. (Ride TH02), but TH01 is all over the place as well.

Hmm, that one looks OK here.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 03:20:27 pm
Just corrected vlookups and refreshed data from updated copy.  Someone had overtyped some of the the VLOOKUP formulas in the Google Sheet that do all the fancy lat , lon lookups. All good again and latest copy just backed up.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 03:34:40 pm
Another interesting looking one.

I may be lost in here a few days.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/gko54uwfp1864h7/coast.PNG?raw=1)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: hulver on October 03, 2018, 03:40:32 pm
Just corrected vlookups and refreshed data from updated copy.  Someone had overtyped some of the the VLOOKUP formulas in the Google Sheet that do all the fancy lat , lon lookups. All good again and latest copy just backed up.

Cleared my cache and it all looks good now.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 03, 2018, 04:45:17 pm
Just corrected vlookups and refreshed data from updated copy.  Someone had overtyped some of the the VLOOKUP formulas in the Google Sheet that do all the fancy lat , lon lookups. All good again and latest copy just backed up.

hm I probably should have put cell level protection on them;
Sorting can also mess the list up if you only tell it to sort the column and not the expanded range.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 04:50:15 pm
Right, since it is my worksheet, I have applied protection to that column. Least I think I have.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on October 03, 2018, 06:06:32 pm
For those of us who are not computer literate what is the best way to flag mistakes.  Would an email to a new address with route and control name be best?  Could Phil generate an email?  could there be a button on the website to flag a control in the wrong place?

Monyash peak 100km Comb set to Combs, Kent not Combs derbyshire 53.3051° N, 1.9370° W

Exex-buzzard 600km  Chandlers ford appears to be in derbyshire  not the south correct lat/long 50.9840° N, 1.3793° W

Chris
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: U.N.Dulates on October 03, 2018, 06:06:50 pm
Just reviewed all my perms and made corrections as necessary. A few other errors beyond the 4 listed earlier - mostly missing controls.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 06:13:37 pm
For those of us who are not computer literate what is the best way to flag mistakes.  Would an email to a new address with route and control name be best?  Could Phil generate an email?  could there be a button on the website to flag a control in the wrong place?

Monyash peak 100km Comb set to Combs, Kent not Combs derbyshire 53.3051° N, 1.9370° W

Exex-buzzard 600km  Chandlers ford appears to be in derbyshire  not the south correct lat/long 50.9840° N, 1.3793° W

Chris

Chris i have created a Google form. It will go round the organisers first to get their input on what we have done for their routes.  Then I will offer up a similar form for corrections linked from each event detail page.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 03, 2018, 06:15:16 pm
Just reviewed all my perms and made corrections as necessary. A few other errors beyond the 4 listed earlier - mostly missing controls.

Thanks I will do another refresh of the map data (to pick up your updates) in the morning.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on October 03, 2018, 07:31:24 pm
excellent.

Now Phil, if you could just crowdsource a new aukweb database and front end :)
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 04, 2018, 02:47:08 pm
I have now locked the perm data spreadsheet.

I have emailed all organisers who have an email address on their perm pages to ask if they will review our work and either

1. Indicate all is fine and they would like their events on the mapping
2. Send their corrections (online form) and they would like their events on the mapping
3. They do not want their events on the mapping.

The mapping is still live but will not be promoted till sufficent time has passed for perm organisers to respond and updates made as necessary.

Thanks to all those who have contributed towards the perm controls data collection so far.




Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 04, 2018, 06:54:21 pm
If anyone still wants edit access let me know. Just did not want further edits to be discarded when Organiser corrections comes in.

The link to the map with latest data (as of today) is here

https://long-distance.rocks/auk/map/perms

Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ian H on October 04, 2018, 07:59:37 pm
Mine all look fine except you've transposed the titles or routes of my two 100s (IH06; IH07).  I've responded via your form.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: eckagain on October 04, 2018, 08:23:01 pm
My Snow Roads (AP01) is fine, now that the third control is where it should be, in Rhynie and not somewhere in north Wales.
 
Aye, that'll be Rhyll!

Big thanks to Phil W for taking on this thankless task.  IYSWIM  :-\
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 04, 2018, 08:47:07 pm
Ah, well it couldn't have been done without those who have contributed big chunks of data or time geocoding / checking. I just kicked the process off and setup a means of doing it collaboratively. Plus built the mapping to show it.

Will respond to form updates and mark your event route outlines as signed off when next at a PC. Cannot action the results (easily) on my iPad here. Apparently my iPad is too old!

There are certainly a few perms I have on my list to do now.

Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 04, 2018, 10:24:05 pm
Mine all look fine except you've transposed the titles or routes of my two 100s (IH06; IH07).  I've responded via your form.
My mistake, Ian, during the data input.
Phil - I have corrected those (IH06 and IH07) and also sent DHU08 to Michael Wood Services.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 04, 2018, 10:51:19 pm
Great updates won't hit map till next week now. All noted.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: oggy on October 05, 2018, 09:56:25 am
Figure of 8 corrected so northern loop is now shown
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on October 05, 2018, 12:55:02 pm
Spotted one last night while looking at the Ride round Ben Kilbreck; which i definitely absolutely have to do at some point, assuming the road has been reopened after the Garvault hotel.

Garvault is somehow north of Forsinard rather than in the lonely bleak place it should be... yes Forsinard is lonely and bleak but Garvault is even more so!!!
Can't correct until Sunday night at the earliest so if someone can sort that one before then!
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 05, 2018, 02:12:47 pm
I have added a column to the main sheet that shows whether an organiser has signed off their events have the correct controls / locations. So those events should no longer be updated without a very good reason.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 05, 2018, 02:15:45 pm
Spotted one last night while looking at the Ride round Ben Kilbreck; which i definitely absolutely have to do at some point, assuming the road has been reopened after the Garvault hotel.

Garvault is somehow north of Forsinard rather than in the lonely bleak place it should be... yes Forsinard is lonely and bleak but Garvault is even more so!!!
Can't correct until Sunday night at the earliest so if someone can sort that one before then!
Have corrected that by changing the AU09 'Ride round Ben KLIBreck' route (mapping) 'apex' to Syre (junction B871/B873, L $ ALTNAHARRA) and added Syre and its lat/long to the control list.
Got it ref organiser sign off, Phil.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 05, 2018, 04:20:12 pm
Goole M62 services is somewhat west of where it should be and  Sleaford missing as start control for Yorkshire via Essex 600
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 05, 2018, 08:48:47 pm
I've amended 'Goole M62 Services' to 'Goole'. Makes no difference to route shape. We are not seeking to define controls per se.
In RP01, have added in 'Sleaford' to the control list as the first location.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on October 05, 2018, 09:59:56 pm
All the Cambrian Series present and correct.  Great job - especially with all those wonderfully spelt place names.   One error on the Corsican ones which I've updated on the form, which reminds me to put in a plug.  5 rides at 100km - 600km all starting from Porto Vecchio.  They're just like the Cambrian Series only with sunshine, ride in May or September when it's warm and the tourists have gone.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 08, 2018, 04:30:25 pm
Applied some more updates from organisers.

Some changes to mapping.

You may need to refresh your browser cache to pick up the mapping updates.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: telstarbox on October 08, 2018, 04:33:00 pm
Could you add the map link to the OP to help people coming into this from scratch?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 08, 2018, 04:35:47 pm
Could you add the map link to the OP to help people coming into this from scratch?

Done
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: tonyh on October 08, 2018, 04:43:02 pm
... that definitely confirms that Phil has Superhuman Powers!

Thanks Phil.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: grams on October 08, 2018, 05:07:33 pm
Nice updates.

Not sure what the current procedure for reporting issues is, but The Boat Ride (PST02) is showing up as both a ride and a control at Uxbridge.

Edit: Also, "Goole M62 services" is still the wrong side of the Pennines.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 08, 2018, 06:26:16 pm
First bit, should be sorted in next update. Forgot about it in update just done.

Latest worksheet updates not pulled into mapping yet. Want to finish working through Organiser forms before I do that. We are getting precise locations from some so will be nice to mark those off as such.

So later this week at some point.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Manotea on October 09, 2018, 08:54:49 am
... that definitely confirms that Phil has Superhuman Powers!

Dunno about that but his approach in progressing this project is exemplary. Chapeau.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 09, 2018, 12:36:50 pm
Have just entered a perm that has a control within 2 miles of the house.  Not something I knew before this mini project.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Planet X Paul on October 09, 2018, 10:49:53 pm
Just looked at one I've done as event a few times; Stockport Eureka MW04 and I notice that one of the controls (Mickle Trafford) is in the wrong place.  It should be to the NE of Chester on A56.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 09, 2018, 11:35:03 pm
Just looked at one I've done as event a few times; Stockport Eureka MW04 and I notice that one of the controls (Mickle Trafford) is in the wrong place.  It should be to the NE of Chester on A56.

Looks like a mistake in the coordinates provided by the organiser Mike.  Will sort tomorrow.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 10, 2018, 03:15:57 pm
Have corrected Poole and Bournemouth locations (lat/long).
Phil W or another has corrected Mickle Trafford location.
These corrections will take time to reflect for the reasons Phil has given.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 11, 2018, 08:00:55 pm
Latest worksheet updates loaded into mapping today.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: telstarbox on October 15, 2018, 02:41:42 pm
How hard would it be to show whether the organiser accepts GPS as part of the description?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on October 18, 2018, 09:26:39 pm
How hard would it be to show whether the organiser accepts GPS as part of the description?
Somewhere on the hard/easy spectrum.
https://long-distance.rocks/auk/map/perms/
This project is designed to show where the permanents go (defined broadly by controls or route apices) and Phil has provided a direct link to the filtered routes' AUK pages (for more detail or/and to enter). Those pages, maintained (or at least fed with info) by individual Permanent organisers, may have lots of information on, or very little. One of those pieces of info might be "whether the organiser accepts [validation by] GPS" but the proportion of the 400+ pages which note this is rather low. Surely validation by GPS is low down on the list of factors which the vast majority of  prospective riders will take into account when contemplating which permanent would be fun to ride.
Distance, accessibility (proximity), nature of terrain/geography, types of roads, AAA would be my starting 5.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 19, 2018, 02:17:04 pm
Not going to happen Telstarbox.  Already shown on the aukweb entry page for each perm event and we would not be improving upon that.

Before a mini cycling tour (just returned) I had raised (with Francis) the possibility if setting up a sub domain say called maps.aukweb.net to use for the mapping. Then link directly from the aukweb.net perm event pages to the detailed map pages. Something to follow up on after the weekend. Also see what additional updates organisers have provided whilst I have been away.  Some have provided enough detail that their events can be updated to allow validation by GPS where they wish and I am helping some with this process. Then close off phase 1.

Phase 2 is login for organisers enabling them to edit control names /  locations directly in the mapping.  Plus I will probably add the ability to load a GPX so (if available) we can show that (in simplified form) in the mapping. More of a slow burn winter project.

Anything that relies on the current state of the Audax UK website or ends up tightly coupled / integrated is a bad idea right now.  But direct links is fine and easy to update whatever the future outcome of the IT refresh.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on October 21, 2018, 05:53:18 pm
The URL has been updated as below and latest updates applied.

https://maps.long-distance.rocks/audax-uk-permanents/

If you want to see an epic permanent take a look at

https://maps.long-distance.rocks/audax-uk-permanents/SJ02
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: telstarbox on November 02, 2018, 02:44:47 pm
Just had another thought - would you allow use of the map to "share" DIY routes  (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=107817.msg2319908)which they're happy for others to use - maybe a separate map to avoid confusion with the proper Perms? As we've seen with your Perms map it's a lot easier to understand your nearby options when they're mapped out like this.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on November 02, 2018, 06:26:54 pm
Just had another thought - would you allow use of the map to "share" DIY routes  (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=107817.msg2319908)which they're happy for others to use - maybe a separate map to avoid confusion with the proper Perms? As we've seen with your Perms map it's a lot easier to understand your nearby options when they're mapped out like this.
Heed the advice of @Somnolent you received earlier:
Alternatively, with a little more effort, turn it into a Perm ?
It really isn't that hard to do.   Mine (below) started out very much as
potentially useful for RRTY entrants if they can't find a suitable Calendar or Perm ride in a particular month, and thus avoid too much reinvention of wheels.
And your Permanent (with an element of applied quality control) can be added to Phil's map for all to enter/share with confidence.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on November 02, 2018, 07:04:06 pm
There is no functionality built to enable that, so there is nothing to allow.  I have a slow burn project over winter to enable direct adding, updating, deleting of perms and their control data directly in the mapping by the organisers. I have no plans to extend beyond that.

So sorry,  no scope creep or projects beyond what I have planned for it at the moment.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: BeMoreMike on November 07, 2018, 12:49:13 pm
Is this project still live, or has the location of the site changed ?

I haven't accessed it for a few weeks, but the link in the op on this thread isn't working. 
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Pingu on November 07, 2018, 12:58:13 pm
There's a link on the previous page to this one, reply 223: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=109541.msg2335165#msg2335165
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 07, 2018, 01:21:08 pm
the link did seem to change slightly, most Perms now have the outline linked on the AUK site though.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: BeMoreMike on November 07, 2018, 01:26:57 pm
Thanks for the help, I've saved the new url in my favourites.

I didn't know also about the outline links on the AUK perm section.....the IT refresh is really starting to show results !!
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on November 07, 2018, 02:13:39 pm
..the IT refresh is really starting to show results !!
Don't be provocative.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Phil W on November 07, 2018, 03:39:26 pm
Links on aukweb is down to myself and Francis not any IT refresh.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on November 21, 2018, 12:48:49 pm
PL03 has been 'validated' (hence the 'Yes') but it starts and finishes in New Alresford (which the data (Controls column) do not show) and the map accordingly does not reflect.
PL03   Peter Lewis   Yes      No   Le Tour des Neuf Chevaux Blancs
https://maps.long-distance.rocks/audax-uk-permanents/PL03
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: fimm on November 21, 2018, 12:54:51 pm
There's an event that is supposed to start and finish in Dingwall but turns up on the map on the new Audax UK website with a marker in the middle of the Pentland Hills south of Edinburgh.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on November 21, 2018, 02:29:10 pm
There's an event that is supposed to start and finish in Dingwall but turns up on the map on the new Audax UK website with a marker in the middle of the Pentland Hills south of Edinburgh.
I'll be guessing you refer to this CALENDAR event: http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/19-455/
Note the title of this thread: "Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?"
which is outside the scope of Phil's project (and OT for this thread).
I don't know who would benefit from the useful spot you've shared.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mattc on December 02, 2018, 04:11:34 pm

Edit - Map Link is now https://long-distance.rocks/auk/map/perms/
... isnt working in the last couple of days - Bad Gateway error.

[i seem to be able to see individaul events linkled to from their Aukweb.net pages. Which is nice! ]
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: quixoticgeek on December 05, 2018, 03:32:03 pm

Edit - Map Link is now https://long-distance.rocks/auk/map/perms/
... isnt working in the last couple of days - Bad Gateway error.

[i seem to be able to see individaul events linkled to from their Aukweb.net pages. Which is nice! ]

Am getting the same issue.

J
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: FifeingEejit on December 05, 2018, 03:34:40 pm
Address is:
https://maps.long-distance.rocks/audax-uk-permanents/

Think it changed to that a while back.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mattc on December 05, 2018, 06:23:37 pm
Address is:
https://maps.long-distance.rocks/audax-uk-permanents/

Think it changed to that a while back.

Thanks!

(ideally Phil would update the OP, as your post will gradually drift down into the sediment along with mine ...  :) )
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on December 06, 2018, 11:34:53 am
There's an event that is supposed to start and finish in Dingwall but turns up on the map on the new Audax UK website with a marker in the middle of the Pentland Hills south of Edinburgh.
OT
I have alerted Andy the organiser to this and he's replied that that is fixed - so it comes up as start in Dingwall.
CALENDAR event: http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/19-455/
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: mattc on March 10, 2019, 10:39:54 am
*** Paging Phil W ! ***

I've tried flagging an error with my event's map ( http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/MC01/ ) but haven't been able to get in contact with Phil. His account on this thread seems to be dead :(

Can anyone assist?
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: bhoot on July 29, 2019, 11:04:22 pm
Phil's perms map has now moved to https://maps.hertsaudax.uk/audax-uk-permanents/ and is linked correctly from https://www.audax.uk/choose-a-ride/permanent-events/

The "enter event" links have also been updated - so now they take you to the detailed entry on audax.uk, from which you can enter the event. Thanks to Francis for supplying the necessary data and to Phil for doing the updates.
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: Ajax Bay on November 14, 2019, 01:12:12 pm
As a result of Phil's work, before mutation to the new site, one could access a Permanent event page and a link was provided to show, diagrammatically, the route (as defined by its start/finish and controls). This doesn't now seem to be available on the new type of page for each permanent. Given the general acclamation for the links on the old style of page, on the new pages, unless a "route map image [is] supplied" might it not be possible to provide a diagram link (based on https://maps.hertsaudax.uk/audax-uk-permanents/ ) to the route?
See https://www.audax.uk/event-details?eventId=2150 as an example, and scroll down to "No route map image supplied".
Title: Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
Post by: phil w on November 14, 2019, 03:25:42 pm
The direct links for perms still work on hertsaudax.

https://maps.hertsaudax.uk/audax-uk-permanents/TF08

Just that when they created the new audax.uk pages they only put the link to the full mapping list, on the perm front page.  No link from each perm page.  But yes, be nice for them to take the data we have, and create the outlines on audax.uk. No doubt, at the reunion this weekend, it'll be mentioned that there's a shit  load of other stuff being done on audax.uk in the background and this isn't a priority.