Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: bludger on January 11, 2019, 07:25:00 am

Title: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: bludger on January 11, 2019, 07:25:00 am
Word on the street is the death cage cabbies are flooding this consultation with responses to retain their vice grip over the capitals road network.

You can respond at https://www.citystreets.london/proposals/key-proposals ; please do and share with your friends, as this is probably the most cyclist friendly transport plan I've seen put to consultation in the capital in my lifetime!

That URL again https://www.citystreets.london/proposals/key-proposals  8)
Title: Re: Critical Coty of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Jakob W on January 11, 2019, 08:30:08 am
Filling it in now! That's quite the about-face from the Corporation, isn't it? ISTR they've been quite obstructive to TfL/the Mayor's plans in the past, no?
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: ian on January 11, 2019, 11:26:25 am
The sad thing here is that why do a series of modest commonsense proposals require a consultation? Is there an upside to polluted, congested streets and obstructed pavements that I'm missing?
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Jakob W on January 11, 2019, 11:28:59 am
Worth noting it closes Sunday; I've nagged my mates on the socials to do this ASAP, especially as it should only take a handful of minutes.
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: bludger on January 11, 2019, 12:01:28 pm
The sad thing here is that why do a series of modest commonsense proposals require a consultation? Is there an upside to polluted, congested streets and obstructed pavements that I'm missing?

This country is a joke in this regard. Completely agree.
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Kim on January 11, 2019, 12:05:46 pm
The sad thing here is that why do a series of modest commonsense proposals require a consultation?

So they can say "We had a consultation!" when challenged for doing what they intended to all along.
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on January 11, 2019, 12:05:58 pm
The sad thing here is that why do a series of modest commonsense proposals require a consultation? Is there an upside to polluted, congested streets and obstructed pavements that I'm missing?
Because who needs health when you could have wealth?
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Redlight on January 11, 2019, 12:07:33 pm
"Consultation" is pretty much standard practice on any infrastructure work. Some bodies treat it as a box ticking exercise ("we consulted...and changed nothing") while others do genuinely scrutinise responses and make changes to their proposals. It's always worth responding. There isn't a monopoly on expertise within government departments or council planning offices and users of a 'facility' often understand its shortcomings and the means of resolving them better than planners.

I'll get on to this one later.
Title: Re: Critical Coty of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: grams on January 11, 2019, 12:28:17 pm
Councils are legally obliged to "consult" on pretty much everything streets related. I think this particular one is part of structured process that follows on from the Mayor's Transport Strategy.

Filling it in now! That's quite the about-face from the Corporation, isn't it? ISTR they've been quite obstructive to TfL/the Mayor's plans in the past, no?

Not especially, certainly not in recent years - in some areas they've even been more proactive than the mayor. I think the stiff competition from mostly pedestrianised Canary Wharf helps them focus. Perhaps you're thinking of Westminster?

Hooray for antidemocratic feudal anachronisms!
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Kim on January 11, 2019, 12:32:59 pm
Ah, I've just realised that I've already responded to this one.   O:-)
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: citoyen on January 11, 2019, 12:47:04 pm
Have submitted my responses. 5/5 endorsement for all the key proposals, of course. I found reading the document a very heartening experience, though I remain cautiously realistic about the chances of all proposals being fully implemented.

The only one I slightly queried is the 15mph speed limit proposal. While I am in favour of this in principle, I imagine it would be almost impossible to enforce. Perhaps they're going in hard in the consultation in the expectation of compromising on 20mph?
Title: Re: Critical Coty of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Jakob W on January 11, 2019, 12:47:57 pm
Councils are legally obliged to "consult" on pretty much everything streets related. I think this particular one is part of structured process that follows on from the Mayor's Transport Strategy.

Filling it in now! That's quite the about-face from the Corporation, isn't it? ISTR they've been quite obstructive to TfL/the Mayor's plans in the past, no?

Not especially, certainly not in recent years - in some areas they've even been more proactive than the mayor. I think the stiff competition from mostly pedestrianised Canary Wharf helps them focus. Perhaps you're thinking of Westminster?

Hooray for antidemocratic feudal anachronisms!

Ah, probably - hooray indeed...
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Redlight on January 11, 2019, 12:52:04 pm
The only one I slightly queried is the 15mph speed limit proposal. While I am in favour of this in principle, I imagine it would be almost impossible to enforce. Perhaps they're going in hard in the consultation in the expectation of compromising on 20mph?

Indeed - I raised exactly the same point.  I also think they are going to have to think carefully about surfacing the pedestrian priority streets so that it's clear to everyone what they are.  Generally good stuff, overall.
Title: Re: Critical Coty of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Redlight on January 11, 2019, 12:58:34 pm
Councils are legally obliged to "consult" on pretty much everything streets related.

Here's a really good one from my neck of the woods, Greenwich.

https://greenwichtowncentreproposals.commonplace.is (https://greenwichtowncentreproposals.commonplace.is)

Anyone who knows Greenwich will know that it has narrow pavements and is plagued with traffic hurtling round a 2-3 lane gyratory system.  Here, the council has put out some forward-thinking ideas of its own but has also given consultees an open book in which to add their own ideas and highlight other places in the borough where improvements could be made. 
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: grams on January 11, 2019, 01:07:46 pm
The City (and most neighbouring boroughs) are currently already 20 mph on every borough road.

The exception is the TfL Red Routes, although they've recently announced plans to make all of the central ones 20 mph too (a few sections are already).
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: FifeingEejit on January 11, 2019, 01:11:03 pm
Have submitted my responses. 5/5 endorsement for all the key proposals, of course. I found reading the document a very heartening experience, though I remain cautiously realistic about the chances of all proposals being fully implemented.

The only one I slightly queried is the 15mph speed limit proposal. While I am in favour of this in principle, I imagine it would be almost impossible to enforce. Perhaps they're going in hard in the consultation in the expectation of compromising on 20mph?

15mph is interesting as the Road Traffic Acts nominally only allows multiples of 10 starting from 20...
And the UK accuracy rules for speedometers are only stated for 25 to 70kmh, outwith that range they must not read under but the rules on reading over are relaxed from 110%.
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: pdm on January 11, 2019, 02:03:53 pm
Survey done and submitted from the point of view of a (frequentish) visitor with lots of comments...  ;)
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: Kim on January 11, 2019, 02:15:23 pm
Have submitted my responses. 5/5 endorsement for all the key proposals, of course. I found reading the document a very heartening experience, though I remain cautiously realistic about the chances of all proposals being fully implemented.

The only one I slightly queried is the 15mph speed limit proposal. While I am in favour of this in principle, I imagine it would be almost impossible to enforce. Perhaps they're going in hard in the consultation in the expectation of compromising on 20mph?

15mph is interesting as the Road Traffic Acts nominally only allows multiples of 10 starting from 20...
And the UK accuracy rules for speedometers are only stated for 25 to 70kmh, outwith that range they must not read under but the rules on reading over are relaxed from 110%.

Could it be related to the speed limit for pedelecs?  15mph is an eminently sensible design speed for cycle infrastructure.  Perhaps they're trying to make it bike friendly by slowing down the motor vehicles.
Title: Re: Critical City of London transport consultation being targeted by black cabs
Post by: FifeingEejit on January 11, 2019, 04:54:45 pm
Have submitted my responses. 5/5 endorsement for all the key proposals, of course. I found reading the document a very heartening experience, though I remain cautiously realistic about the chances of all proposals being fully implemented.

The only one I slightly queried is the 15mph speed limit proposal. While I am in favour of this in principle, I imagine it would be almost impossible to enforce. Perhaps they're going in hard in the consultation in the expectation of compromising on 20mph?

15mph is interesting as the Road Traffic Acts nominally only allows multiples of 10 starting from 20...
And the UK accuracy rules for speedometers are only stated for 25 to 70kmh, outwith that range they must not read under but the rules on reading over are relaxed from 110%.

Could it be related to the speed limit for pedelecs?  15mph is an eminently sensible design speed for cycle infrastructure.  Perhaps they're trying to make it bike friendly by slowing down the motor vehicles.

Possibly, but if the signage and limit aren't legal then it comes down to whether the road is restricted (30mph default) or unrestricted (NSL default) as to what the limit actually is for enforcement.

Reducing speeds in built up areas makes sense, but without the authority to do so?
AFAIK the Scottish Ministers, Welsh Ministers and Secretary for State, can change the NSL and Restricted Road default limit. But the rest has to be through an alteration to the approrpiate acts.
Roads Authorities (e.g Transport Scotland or Council roads department) can only apply for the approrpiate instrument to alter the speed limit from National/Restricted limit

can't find it in the act right now but see the SABRE discussion on finding a 2mph limit
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25432

also, speed limits only apply (directly) to motorised vehicles...