Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => PBP 2019 => Topic started by: Kamoshika on February 06, 2019, 10:29:00 am

Title: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Kamoshika on February 06, 2019, 10:29:00 am
At the risk of starting a discussion of EU regs, I wanted to check what the deal is with the PBP hi viz vests. This will be my first PBP, and I'm aware of the rules for cycling after dark in France, and the requirement of having hi-viz that meets the specified standards. I assume, as someone who doesn't currently own anything suitable to meet that, the easiest thing is going to be to use the one that I'll be paying for as part of my entry fee. Is there any good reason not to do that, and if so can anyone recommend an alternative that will be suitable for cycling? (i.e. not big and flappy or boil-in-the-bag non-breathable). For the included vests, are they given out when you get there and sign in? Is there a choice of sizes, or do you just get what you're given / one-size-fits-all?

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Greenbank on February 06, 2019, 10:41:41 am
In previous years (2011 is my only experience) you've ordered one when you complete your registration (i.e. you've done 3/4 of your qualifiers). I think I collected mine at registration (after the bike check) along with the bottles and jersey I'd purchased. You get to pick sizes when ordering.

The 2011 one was a good fit (not flappy) and not boil in the bag, mine still gets used every so often now (although all of the lettering has long since fallen off).

The following google image search will give you an idea: https://www.google.com/search?q=2011+pbp+gilet&tbm=isch
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: T42 on February 06, 2019, 10:47:15 am
The 2015 one was good for fit & not excessively BITB, although the logo on the back did create a sweaty patch. I still use it though.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Kamoshika on February 06, 2019, 10:52:24 am
Great - thanks for the quick replies :) Looks like that's one thing I can cross off my list of pre-PBP things to worry about ;)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 06, 2019, 11:11:30 am
Note that if you "run hot", like me, then the PBP gilet is heavy and horribly sweaty.  Obviously everyone's different.

It is a good fit, though.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 06, 2019, 11:16:00 am
It came at no additional cost in 2015.  The standard has been replaced by ISO 20471 and so is intenational now.  I have a ISO 20471 mesh high viz vest I got in the USA.  But I may just go with the one they hand out as my warm layer for overnight. 
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 06, 2019, 11:47:49 am
If you do think the official vest looks a little flappy and unbreathable, Wowow make vests which are CE EN1150 approved.  I got the "Maverick" and think the cut is really good.

Can be hard to source in the UK but Hollandbikeshop* carries them. 

*Buy before 29th March if we leave with no deal though, to save import fees.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on February 06, 2019, 11:48:45 am
Some of the Proviz kit claims to meet EN ISO 20417 but I note that they say "Material conforms to" not "garment conforms to"

Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mattc on February 06, 2019, 11:59:36 am
Some of the Proviz kit claims to meet EN ISO 20417 but I note that they say "Material conforms to" not "garment conforms to"
That suggests "does not conform to" !!!

If it doesn't have stripes - and the Proviz I've seen does not - then it ain't compliant.

And I think Proviz is known to be a tad more B-I-T-B than regular cycling stuff ...
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 06, 2019, 12:14:53 pm
The Proviz stuff (at least the stuff of theirs I have) is all reflective, no fluorescent.  Needs a defined minimum amount of both to meet certification, I understand.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 06, 2019, 12:28:47 pm


I have a runners Hivi vest thing. It packs down tiny (smaller than an inner tube), and has a CE certification -https://amzn.to/2Rgr6X1

It's made of mesh so doesn't boil you. On me the fit is rather snug, so there is no flapping. My only fault is I'd rather they came in orange, since the yellow hivi seems to have interesting additional connotations these days.

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mattc on February 06, 2019, 12:36:03 pm
From what I recall of the EN standard (oddly, I don't read it every morning) that vesty thing wouldn't pass. I think they'd mention it clearly in the description if it was certified.

But it does look like it provides a very useful amount of visibility. And is certainly more breathable than "standard" builders hiviz (or the PBP#11 vest, for that matter).  :thumbsup:

Are "CE" more of a manufacturing quality thing? And not likely to choke you, things like that?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 06, 2019, 12:37:28 pm
AIUI CE = does what it says on the tin, as opposed to being a confirmation of standards. If it doesn't say ENxxxxx then it isn't.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 06, 2019, 12:45:11 pm

Just dug it out of my bag. Here's the label:

(http://photos.quixotic.eu/misc/hiviz01_sm.jpg)

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on February 06, 2019, 12:51:03 pm
I've had various discussions on hi viz apparel in UK bike shops, with a common outcome.  1) They weren't aware of any regulations, 2) they didn't have anything that complied with the regulations, 3) they tried to sell me something that wasn't going to work. 

You might be luckier than me but might also want to source something via Bike24 or Decathlon.  Or settle for the one the organisers provide.  I'm still using my 2015 one as it is a lot more visible than most of the c&*p UK bike shops have tried to sell me, even though the zip bust a long while ago.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 06, 2019, 12:51:35 pm
@quixoticgeek Is 13356 enough?  I've been unsuccessful finding the regs again but, from memory, it was minimum EN 1150 or EN 471 (the latter superseded maybe). 
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 06, 2019, 12:52:47 pm
I've had various discussions on hi viz apparel in UK bike shops, with a common outcome.  1) They weren't aware of any regulations, 2) they didn't have anything that complied with the regulations, 3) they tried to sell me something that wasn't going to work. 

You might be luckier than me but might also want to source something via Bike24 or Decathlon.  Or settle for the one the organisers provide.  I'm still using my 2015 one as it is a lot more visible than most of the c&*p UK bike shops have tried to sell me, even though the zip bust a long while ago.

See my post reply#6
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Greenbank on February 06, 2019, 12:53:29 pm
Just dug it out of my bag. Here's the label:

[EDIT] Image removed, label shows EN13356

As far as I can tell that won't satisfy the French legal requirement.

That requires EN471 or EN1150.

(My gilet from PBP 2011 has EN1150 on the label.)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 06, 2019, 12:57:01 pm
@quixoticgeek Is 13356 enough?  I've been unsuccessful finding the regs again but, from memory, it was minimum EN 1150 or EN 471 (the latter superseded maybe).

"According to French traffic law, a high visibility vest MUST be worn when riding at night (EN 1150 or EN ISO 20471 certified to meet international safety standards)."

from article 9 of the regs http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 06, 2019, 01:08:19 pm
@quixoticgeek Is 13356 enough?  I've been unsuccessful finding the regs again but, from memory, it was minimum EN 1150 or EN 471 (the latter superseded maybe).

EN471 covers 3 classes, depending on the use case, Class 1 is the minimum, and Class 3 is the maximum. To meet class 1 you need:

CLASS 1
Minimum background material 0.14m2
Minimum Retro-reflective material 0.10m2
i.e. Minimal risk such as off road activities. Hi-vis trousers will commonly meet this standard when worn separately from upper garments.

Class 2 needs a bit more, but not much:

CLASS 2
Minimum background material 0.5m2
Minimum Retro-reflective material 0.13m2
i.e. Arco code 1880500 2 Band & Brace Hi-vis waistcoat

To get to class 3 tho, you need the extra length of full sleeves to provide enough material.

En471 is aimed at professional use. In theory if you're a highway worker you need your kit to be EN471. EN1150 is for non-professional use and says:

"Even for a small adult (158cm tall – 5ft 2in) a garment must incorporate a total of at least
0.32 m² of visible fluorescent material and 900 cm² of visible reflective material. In terms of
sheets of A4 paper, that is equivalent to about 5 sheets of fluorescent and 1½ sheets of
reflective material.
• These materials can be applied as a number of bands or panels but these must be
distributed reasonably evenly around the whole garment.
• Fluorescent material can be yellow, green, orange, red or pink (including a combination of
these)
• No piece of fluorescent material can be less than 50 mm (2 inches) wide *
• No piece of reflective material can be less than 25 mm (1 inch) wide*
• No single piece of reflective material can be smaller than 25 square centimetres in area
which is equivalent to a strip about 1inch x 4 inches or a 2 inch square*
• If a garment has sleeves, there must be at least one reflective panel/band on each sleeve. "

So no, the vest I link to doesn't comply. Interestingly, if you look up EN13356, it is a standard for accessories, and not for garments:

"This standard specifies the optical performance requirements and surface area requirements for accessories intended for non-professional use, and intended to signal the user's presence visually when illuminated by vehicles on dark roads. The accessories can be worn, attached to or carried by persons. This standard does not apply to garments."

So in theory, this vest does not comply with the minimum legal requirements to be a hivi vest for French law. *HOWEVER*, it's a hivi, it has an EN number and a CE approval label. So if you're wearing it, the chances of being stopped are slim, and the chances of the cop that pulled you over knowing that EN1156 is not enough, are slim...

There is a gap in the market for well thought out EN1150 garments for cyclists that don't suck...

@quixoticgeek Is 13356 enough?  I've been unsuccessful finding the regs again but, from memory, it was minimum EN 1150 or EN 471 (the latter superseded maybe).

"According to French traffic law, a high visibility vest MUST be worn when riding at night (EN 1150 or EN ISO 20471 certified to meet international safety standards)."

from article 9 of the regs http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement)

Lucky I'm not wearing it for PBP...

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 06, 2019, 01:13:47 pm

Lucky I'm not wearing it for PBP...

J

Lucky Trans continental does not come through France this year or you would need a compliant hi viz...
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 06, 2019, 01:15:05 pm
Anyway there will once again be a compliant hiviz provided as part of entry to PBP

The registration fee includes:
• participation in Paris-Brest-Paris Randonneur 2019
• official water bottle
• official reflective vest
• hot meal at the finish
• official document pouch
• PBP 2019 frame number
• PBP 2019 brevet card
• PBP 2019 rider follow-up
• engraved souvenir medal (if you are homologated)
• medical evacuation insurance according to the insurance contract
• arrow signs on the course
• supervision by official cars and motorcyclists
• access to the various checkpoints and food stops
• emergency support at the checkpoints
• results brochure and 19th Paris-Brest-Paris Randonneur® DVD sent to your address in early 2020
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 06, 2019, 01:17:44 pm

Lucky Trans continental does not come through France this year or you would need a compliant hi viz...

Yeah, I haven't worked out what I'm gonna do about that one...

Every EN1150 hivi design sucks, big time. It's like they haven't been designed by someone who actually cycles. In countries other than France Hivi's for cycling are seen as a winter item, so it doesn't matter that it boils you. It's even worse finding one that fits over breasts.

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 06, 2019, 01:18:13 pm

Lucky I'm not wearing it for PBP...

J

Sorry, you threw me there by posting about it in the PBP thread about hi viz  :)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 06, 2019, 01:19:07 pm
Anyway there will once again be a compliant hiviz provided as part of entry to PBP

The registration fee includes:
• official reflective vest

Yes, but as mentioned by a number of people, it sucks as an item to wear, esp if it's warm.

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on February 06, 2019, 01:20:44 pm
Anyway there will once again be a compliant hiviz provided as part of entry to PBP

The registration fee includes:
• participation in Paris-Brest-Paris Randonneur 2019
• official water bottle
• official reflective vest
• hot meal at the finish
• official document pouch
• PBP 2019 frame number
• PBP 2019 brevet card
• PBP 2019 rider follow-up
• engraved souvenir medal (if you are homologated)
• medical evacuation insurance according to the insurance contract
• arrow signs on the course
• supervision by official cars and motorcyclists
• access to the various checkpoints and food stops
• emergency support at the checkpoints
• results brochure and 19th Paris-Brest-Paris Randonneur® DVD sent to your address in early 2020

The problem only comes if you're riding in France before you collect it...
Which seems to be a fair few!

I need to check the label on the one I've got lying around... somewhere...
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 06, 2019, 01:21:08 pm

Every EN1150 hivi design sucks, big time. It's like they haven't been designed by someone who actually cycles. In countries other than France Hivi's for cycling are seen as a winter item, so it doesn't matter that it boils you. It's even worse finding one that fits over breasts.

J

Check out my post reply #6
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: djrikki on February 06, 2019, 01:21:15 pm
Lets be sensible, if your wearing a fluro gillet what are the chances that someone is not going to let you ride? All sounds daft to me, what are these standards do they define the Pantone reference of the colour! All sounds very pedantic.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 06, 2019, 01:21:57 pm
Lets be sensible, if your wearing a fluro gillet what are the chances that someone is not going to let you ride? All sounds daft to me, what are these standards do they define the Pantone reference of the colour! All sounds very pedantic.

I'm given to understand the label is checked at the bike check
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 06, 2019, 01:28:04 pm
Lets be sensible, if your wearing a fluro gillet what are the chances that someone is not going to let you ride? All sounds daft to me, what are these standards do they define the Pantone reference of the colour! All sounds very pedantic.

Actually they define the surface area of the fluorescent part, and the reflective part (see my post above).

I don't believe they define the actual Pantone or RAL colour. Just Yellow, Orange, Pink, Green, etc...

Oh, and when I say the designs available suck, here's a google search:


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22en1150%22+cycling+vest&source=lnms&tbm=shop

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 06, 2019, 01:28:34 pm

Lucky Trans continental does not come through France this year or you would need a compliant hi viz...

Yeah, I haven't worked out what I'm gonna do about that one...

Every EN1150 hivi design sucks, big time. It's like they haven't been designed by someone who actually cycles. In countries other than France Hivi's for cycling are seen as a winter item, so it doesn't matter that it boils you. It's even worse finding one that fits over breasts.

J

Take a look at running vests complying with ISO 20471.  Mine is actually a running vest and seals via velco at the waist.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/21hn6u7ga0bydkt/IMG_0044.JPG?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/iphsprcv4u1r5y1/IMG_0045.JPG?raw=1)

Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Greenbank on February 06, 2019, 01:32:30 pm
Lets be sensible, if your wearing a fluro gillet what are the chances that someone is not going to let you ride? All sounds daft to me, what are these standards do they define the Pantone reference of the colour! All sounds very pedantic.

I'm given to understand the label is checked at the bike check

When they included them in the entry fee they stopped checking them at the bike check. (In 2011 they were still optional to buy and you had to either show yours at the bike check or show the entry receipt which said you had bought one.)

Enforcement is separate, on PBP itself there's a good chance you'll get pulled over by a motorbike or by a marshall near a control if you're not wearing something suitable at night.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on February 06, 2019, 01:33:40 pm
attach a en1150 label to the vest of your choice? :demon:
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 06, 2019, 01:34:29 pm
Take a look at running vests complying with ISO 20471.  Mine is actually a running vest and seals via velco at the waist.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/21hn6u7ga0bydkt/IMG_0044.JPG?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/iphsprcv4u1r5y1/IMG_0045.JPG?raw=1)

Oooh, 54 quid on amazon uk, but $18 on amazon us. Looks like I'll get one from the US...

Thanks for the heads up!

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on February 06, 2019, 01:37:28 pm
Decathlon have just introduced em to the concept of Hi-Vis Camo

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/revers-padded-jacket-camo-bl-id_8494232.html
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Greenbank on February 06, 2019, 01:45:01 pm
Decathlon have just introduced em to the concept of Hi-Vis Camo

It makes sense for hunting.

Other hunters know that hi vis orange is a person and not to be shot at, but the camouflage helps you hide from the animals.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 06, 2019, 01:45:50 pm
Decathlon have just introduced em to the concept of Hi-Vis Camo

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/revers-padded-jacket-camo-bl-id_8494232.html

Hi-viz camouflage.  If that isn't an oxymoron then...   ;D
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 06, 2019, 01:46:46 pm
Lets be sensible, if your wearing a fluro gillet what are the chances that someone is not going to let you ride? All sounds daft to me, what are these standards do they define the Pantone reference of the colour! All sounds very pedantic.

Actually they define the surface area of the fluorescent part, and the reflective part (see my post above).

I don't believe they define the actual Pantone or RAL colour. Just Yellow, Orange, Pink, Green, etc...

Oh, and when I say the designs available suck, here's a google search:


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22en1150%22+cycling+vest&source=lnms&tbm=shop

J

They do define colours and I think it only allows yellow, orange, red within the standard.  I did have a read of it couple of years back.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: JonB on February 06, 2019, 02:17:24 pm
Yes, but as mentioned by a number of people, it sucks as an item to wear, esp if it's warm.

J

Sure, if you had to wear it during the day but you only need at night when it's a lot cooler (very cool the first couple of nights in 2015) and I really don't remember it being a problem.  The point about being pulled over by the motorbikes if you don't have the vest or an appropriate vest is correct ... I saw this on a number of occasions.
 
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 06, 2019, 02:33:09 pm
Yes, but as mentioned by a number of people, it sucks as an item to wear, esp if it's warm.

J

Sure, if you had to wear it during the day but you only need at night when it's a lot cooler (very cool the first couple of nights in 2015) and I really don't remember it being a problem.  The point about being pulled over by the motorbikes if you don't have the vest or an appropriate vest is correct ... I saw this on a number of occasions.

I got pointed at and told hiviz at dusk on the first night by a motorbike marshall. The problem on the first night was you don't want to stop to put on the hiviz and lose the peloton you are riding in. The first night was hot and I found the official one sweaty, the second night it was a bit cooler.  Perhaps I will take my mesh one to wear.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 06, 2019, 02:42:28 pm
Sure, if you had to wear it during the day but you only need at night when it's a lot cooler (very cool the first couple of nights in 2015) and I really don't remember it being a problem.  The point about being pulled over by the motorbikes if you don't have the vest or an appropriate vest is correct ... I saw this on a number of occasions.

Can be cool, can be warm. Can be warm and humid. Perhaps I'm looking at it with slightly different eyes, wanting something for more than just PBP. I've done rides in .NL, .BE, & .FR in August and July where night temperatures were >20°.

It may be cool enough not to boil in the vest, but it may not be, and you have no choice not to wear it.

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 06, 2019, 05:24:01 pm
Decathlon have just introduced em to the concept of Hi-Vis Camo

It makes sense for hunting.

Other hunters know that hi vis orange is a person and not to be shot at, but the camouflage helps you hide from the animals.
And the French do hunting properly, shooting at things to eat them, not an excuse for a horse race.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 06, 2019, 05:25:41 pm

Just dug it out of my bag. Here's the label:

So it is EN (albeit apparently not the right EN for PBP). But it is the EN label that says that, not the CE, which can be attached to all sorts of things.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 06, 2019, 05:28:30 pm
So it is EN (albeit apparently not the right EN for PBP). But it is the EN label that says that, not the CE, which can be attached to all sorts of things.

Yeah, it's my bad for getting EN and CE the wrong way round.

As established, it has the wrong EN label for PBP. Will be getting the freemove version. That is EN20471 approved, tho it has less reflective stuff on it on the back...

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ivo on February 06, 2019, 08:17:16 pm
Last time I used the 2011 version plus a very light running vest from Decathlon. Both having the correct labels.
After the Bunnik 200 I checked the Wowow Flanders vest of one of the other riders. Quite thin material + EN 1150.
Alternatively I could buy a roadworkes T-shirt with the appropriate labels.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zacklaws on February 06, 2019, 11:02:24 pm
I know from experience how keen they are on making you wear the reflective on a night. Three times me and another rider got told to put our reflective jackets on. It was not the fact that I did not want to wear it, but there was more than an hour at least till sunset, no where near dark and it was roasting in the heat. Just to keep the motorcycle rider happy, as he was shouting at us and waving his arm wildly on the last occasion and told us he would not tell us again we stopped and put them on. To try and keep cool, I just removed my jersey and stuck it in my saddlebag and wore the reflective jacket till it cooled down a bit. But, I did hear afterwards that there was an over ambitious motorcycle rider who had a go at a few riders in similiar circumstances and we must have come across him.

Plus, not wearing one could incur a time penalty, think its a couple of hours, plus they might have added another hour or two for ignoring a marshall as well.

 
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 01:05:45 am
Some of the Proviz kit claims to meet EN ISO 20417 but I note that they say "Material conforms to" not "garment conforms to"
That suggests "does not conform to" !!!

If it doesn't have stripes - and the Proviz I've seen does not - then it ain't compliant.

And I think Proviz is known to be a tad more B-I-T-B than regular cycling stuff ...

I spoke with Proviz about this in 2015 and no, they don't comply for that specific reason — it's all reflective and no fluorescent.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 01:08:45 am
attach a en1150 label to the vest of your choice? :demon:

I believe that's a criminal offence.  And removing a label makes the garment non-compliant, too.  It's all rather predictably dull.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 01:10:12 am
They do define colours and I think it only allows yellow, orange, red within the standard.  I did have a read of it couple of years back.

I recall the spec being fairly relaxed about colour, as corporate colours can also be used, so long as they fluoresce.  I recall pink being allowed.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 01:13:10 am
If you do think the official vest looks a little flappy and unbreathable, Wowow make vests which are CE EN1150 approved.  I got the "Maverick" and think the cut is really good.

Can be hard to source in the UK but Hollandbikeshop* carries them. 

*Buy before 29th March if we leave with no deal though, to save import fees.

I think we looked at Wowow vests on a FB thread last year — I checked the registration of the EN certificate (with TÜV) and it all looked rather fishy, like they'd "borrowed" the certification from a different company for a similar product.  The label is apparently no longer any guarantee of compliance.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ivo on February 07, 2019, 08:28:56 am
I know from experience how keen they are on making you wear the reflective on a night. Three times me and another rider got told to put our reflective jackets on. It was not the fact that I did not want to wear it, but there was more than an hour at least till sunset, no where near dark and it was roasting in the heat. Just to keep the motorcycle rider happy, as he was shouting at us and waving his arm wildly on the last occasion and told us he would not tell us again we stopped and put them on. To try and keep cool, I just removed my jersey and stuck it in my saddlebag and wore the reflective jacket till it cooled down a bit. But, I did hear afterwards that there was an over ambitious motorcycle rider who had a go at a few riders in similiar circumstances and we must have come across him.

Plus, not wearing one could incur a time penalty, think its a couple of hours, plus they might have added another hour or two for ignoring a marshall as well.

I had a similar situation with a marshall in a car.
Wearing the too heavy vest did cost me a visit to the docter in Carhaix as my old shoulder injury started to hurt again due to the excess heat generated by the jacket.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 07, 2019, 08:40:24 am
If you do think the official vest looks a little flappy and unbreathable, Wowow make vests which are CE EN1150 approved.  I got the "Maverick" and think the cut is really good.

Can be hard to source in the UK but Hollandbikeshop* carries them. 

*Buy before 29th March if we leave with no deal though, to save import fees.

I think we looked at Wowow vests on a FB thread last year — I checked the registration of the EN certificate (with TÜV) and it all looked rather fishy, like they'd "borrowed" the certification from a different company for a similar product.  The label is apparently no longer any guarantee of compliance.

Is it not like British Standards marks?  A declaration by the manufacturer that it meets the defined standard.  With it being an offence to offer for sale something labelled as compliant that isn't?

edit - strikethrough
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 07, 2019, 11:33:51 am
They do define colours and I think it only allows yellow, orange, red within the standard.  I did have a read of it couple of years back.

I recall the spec being fairly relaxed about colour, as corporate colours can also be used, so long as they fluoresce.  I recall pink being allowed.

Nope, colours are specific and as below

Key requirements of EN ISO 20471

The standard covers the requirements for the base fabric colour, minimum areas for reflectivity, and placement of tape.

The requirements on the minimum area of reflective material (detailed in the table below) can restrict the ability to adjust garments. For example, shortening trousers might reduce the area of fluorescent material too much. This also means that hi-vis trousers shouldn't be tucked into boots when in use, as the garment may no longer comply. The same goes for wearing any clothing that obscures or covers the fluorescent material, for example wearing a non-hi-vis jacket over a hi-vis vest.

Three colours of fluorescent material are approved in the standard; yellow, orange and red. In addition to the surface area of each material, there are also requirements for the performance of these materials, as well as the degree of reflection from the reflective strips. Physical properties including tensile strength, thermal resistance, and dimensional stability are also covered within the standard to ensure that all hi-vis is suitable for a range of working conditions where there is a high risk.

There are strict requirements on the amount of 'bleeding' between the reflective strips and the fluorescent and contrast materials. This bleeding refers to the residues of colour within the material that can stain the sensitive parts of the hi-vis garment. As the fluorescent material is always a bright colour, it can be affected by the darker colour of the contrast material. EN ISO 20471 stipulates the tolerated level of bleeding to ensure the fluorescence is still effective.

Also your hiviz vest from 2015 will no longer be compliant!

EN ISO 20471 was released in 2013, replacing EN 471:2003 A1:2007. As certificates are only valid for 5 years, this means that the last garments made to EN471 certification will lose compliance by the end of 2018.

Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 07, 2019, 11:39:15 am
If you do think the official vest looks a little flappy and unbreathable, Wowow make vests which are CE EN1150 approved.  I got the "Maverick" and think the cut is really good.

Can be hard to source in the UK but Hollandbikeshop* carries them. 

*Buy before 29th March if we leave with no deal though, to save import fees.

I think we looked at Wowow vests on a FB thread last year — I checked the registration of the EN certificate (with TÜV) and it all looked rather fishy, like they'd "borrowed" the certification from a different company for a similar product.  The label is apparently no longer any guarantee of compliance.

Is it not like British Standards marks?  A declaration by the manufacturer that it meets the defined standard.  With it being an offence to offer for sale something labelled as compliant that isn't?

Disregard.  I'm wrong.  It does need to be type tested and approved to gain certification.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on February 07, 2019, 12:11:27 pm
attach a en1150 label to the vest of your choice? :demon:

I believe that's a criminal offence.  And removing a label makes the garment non-compliant, too.  It's all rather predictably dull.
i was thinking along the lines of making/sowing your custom vest according to the guidelines of en1150 and attaching a label from say "builder's" vest. technically it would be compliant, aiui?

anyway, my child-sized vest was fine (i.e. snug fit and ending above jersey pockets for convenience) last time and i'm planning to use it again this year.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 07, 2019, 12:16:42 pm
attach a en1150 label to the vest of your choice? :demon:

I believe that's a criminal offence.  And removing a label makes the garment non-compliant, too.  It's all rather predictably dull.
i was thinking along the lines of making/sowing your custom vest according to the guidelines of en1150 and attaching a label from say "builder's" vest. technically it would be compliant, aiui?

anyway, my child-sized vest was fine (i.e. snug fit and ending above jersey pockets for convenience) last time and i'm planning to use it again this year.
I don't think so, because your vest would not have been tested or homologated. But unless you were selling it, I can't imagine that mattering.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 07, 2019, 01:51:26 pm
Take a look at running vests complying with ISO 20471.  Mine is actually a running vest and seals via velco at the waist.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/21hn6u7ga0bydkt/IMG_0044.JPG?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/iphsprcv4u1r5y1/IMG_0045.JPG?raw=1)

I've ordered one of these. Looking at it, the crazy thing is it has less reflective stripes than the one I already have, which doesn't comply with the standard... But I think it has more fluorescent material. Should arrive from the US next month some time... Wish they made it in Orange, less chance of being mistaken for a protester...

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Kim on February 07, 2019, 01:58:15 pm
Wish they made it in Orange, less chance of being mistaken for a protester...

Yeah, but then you get abuse during postal strikes instead.

I saw a photo somewhere on the interwebs of someone wearing a yellow vest with "Not a nazi - I'm a real surveyor" written on it in marker pen.  Seems like a pragmatic approach.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 07, 2019, 02:02:58 pm
Yeah, but then you get abuse during postal strikes instead.

Not a problem as long as I don't wear it in the UK. And I only really have one to comply with the law in France, or for when I've ended up on bonkers German roads on xmas day...

Quote

I saw a photo somewhere on the interwebs of someone wearing a yellow vest with "Not a nazi - I'm a real surveyor" written on it in marker pen.  Seems like a pragmatic approach.

That's fine as long as it doesn't end up with the words fading selectively ala:

(http://i.imgur.com/Mr0aQyd.jpg)

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 02:10:27 pm

Nope, colours are specific and as below

...

EN ISO 20471 was released in 2013, replacing EN 471:2003 A1:2007. As certificates are only valid for 5 years, this means that the last garments made to EN471 certification will lose compliance by the end of 2018.

Thanks, Phil  :thumbsup:

Yep, I was referring (in my head) to the earlier standards.  I hadn't looked at this latest one.  Interesting (in a nerdy way) stuff.

I've just checked my 2015 gilet and it's to EN1150:1999, so possibly still fine, as it's covered by the non-commercial hiviz spec — ACP mention that whichever gilet is worn, it must be either EN1150 or EN ISO 20471.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 02:44:46 pm
Take a look at running vests complying with ISO 20471.  Mine is actually a running vest and seals via velco at the waist.

I've ordered one of these. Looking at it, the crazy thing is it has less reflective stripes than the one I already have, which doesn't comply with the standard... But I think it has more fluorescent material. Should arrive from the US next month some time... Wish they made it in Orange, less chance of being mistaken for a protester...

J

This is another one that looks like it has an incorrect label — I have a strong feeling that the area of reflective must comprise a majority proportion at 50mm or wider, where these are clearly narrower and so would contribute to the fluorescent area only.  It's only what I remember, though — the standard is 118 Swiss Francs and specific information elsewhere is thin ... ah, found a copy I think (https://issuu.com/zhoufeiqi/docs/bs_en_iso_20471-2013), and it says this: "bands of retroreflective material shall be at least 50mm wide" — it seems clear to me that the gilet pictured cannot be compliant with EN 20471 in this regard, as well as the minimum area, unfortunately.  Also, the mesh material may be non-compliant.  This is the sort of detail that fashion- and sports-style reflectives fall down on.  Even EN1150 (http://www.rema.org.uk/pub/pdf/non-professional-hi-vis-advice-to-buyers-v2.pdf) specifies >25mm bands that wrap the torso and (IIRC) non-perforated background material.

The back of the label must also show a wash schedule, as I can't see it on the front — if that's not there then this definitely is an "inventive certification".

There does appear to be a problem in the supply chain where out-of-region manufacturers are importing their goods via grey channels (mail-order, Amazon, eBay) with labels that look correct, but in fact are borrowed from a different garment, or fabricated altogether.  Not that ACP is going to check, but there are some parts of both standards that are obvious from a distance, namely the quantity of background material (the size of the garment), the balance between front and back (50% ±10%), and the width of the bands that must wrap the torso.

As ever, it'll only be a problem if it becomes a problem, YMMV, caveat emptor, mets ca dans ta poche et ton mouchoir par dessus, etc., etc.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: grams on February 07, 2019, 02:52:22 pm
Surely the only requirement is Not To Be Hassled By Jobsworths, who won't have read any standard but will be familiar with the PBP gilet, so you want something that looks superficially similar to that - whatever standards it might comply or claim to comply with.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ajax Bay on February 07, 2019, 03:02:11 pm
I agree with @grams as far as the governing criterion.

"PBP Regulations
Article 9 : Equipment
According to French traffic law, a high visibility vest MUST be worn when riding at night (EN 1150 or EN ISO 20471 certified to meet international safety standards)."

Note that EN 1150 allows green and pink and that the minimum width of the reflective material stripes is only 25mm (rather than the 20471 50mm minimum).
"EN 1150

    a garment must incorporate a total of at least 3200 cm² of visible fluorescent material and 900 cm²
of visible reflective material.

    . . . must be distributed reasonably evenly around the whole garment.

    Fluorescent material can be yellow, green, orange, red or pink (including a combination of these)

    No piece of fluorescent material can be less than 50 mm wide

    No piece of reflective material can be less than 25 mm wide

EN ISO 20471
"The fluorescent fabric must encircle the torso with at least 40% or the minimum required area of fluorescent material present on the front of the garment (and at least 40% on the back of the garment). The reflective strips must be 50 mm wide and the space between 2 reflective strips must be at least 50 mm."
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 03:16:35 pm
Surely the only requirement is Not To Be Hassled By Jobsworths, who won't have read any standard but will be familiar with the PBP gilet, so you want something that looks superficially similar to that - whatever standards it might comply or claim to comply with.

Like these?  Although the guy in the foreground-right would need additional reflectives on the back of his rucksac, just saying ...

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/22B3/production/_105538880_hi052111697.jpg)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47148478 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47148478)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 07, 2019, 03:18:41 pm
Natty hi-viz scarf on the old guy behind the flag-bearer. What standard is that covered by?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 07, 2019, 03:23:22 pm
It has the correct standard listed on the label. How can I as the end user be expected not to treat that in good faith?

I'm guessing french police are unlikely to worry about such things if you're wearing a hivi. If they do know about standards, and you show the label, surely that's enough?

I'm wondering what the doublespeak is that allows things to be incorrectly labelled.

As an aside I wonder which is a higher risk in hot weather, heat exhaustion from boiling in a mandatory compliant hivi, Vs getting hot for someone not seeing your rear lights and reflectors.

Suggests more evidence the French law was pushed by motorists who didn't think it through fully...

Interestingly it looks like EN1150 is more strict than a class 1 En471...

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mattc on February 07, 2019, 03:28:13 pm
If you're a bit warm in Normandy at night (not in Malaysia), undo the front Velcro/zip.

If you finish your event out-of-time due to the extra drag, you are welcome to come moaning to me.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 07, 2019, 03:52:13 pm
Take a look at running vests complying with ISO 20471.  Mine is actually a running vest and seals via velco at the waist.

I've ordered one of these. Looking at it, the crazy thing is it has less reflective stripes than the one I already have, which doesn't comply with the standard... But I think it has more fluorescent material. Should arrive from the US next month some time... Wish they made it in Orange, less chance of being mistaken for a protester...

J

This is another one that looks like it has an incorrect label — I have a strong feeling that the area of reflective must comprise a majority proportion at 50mm or wider, where these are clearly narrower and so would contribute to the fluorescent area only.  It's only what I remember, though — the standard is 118 Swiss Francs and specific information elsewhere is thin ... ah, found a copy I think (https://issuu.com/zhoufeiqi/docs/bs_en_iso_20471-2013), and it says this: "bands of retroreflective material shall be at least 50mm wide" — it seems clear to me that the gilet pictured cannot be compliant with EN 20471 in this regard, as well as the minimum area, unfortunately.  Also, the mesh material may be non-compliant.  This is the sort of detail that fashion- and sports-style reflectives fall down on.  Even EN1150 (http://www.rema.org.uk/pub/pdf/non-professional-hi-vis-advice-to-buyers-v2.pdf) specifies >25mm bands that wrap the torso and (IIRC) non-perforated background material.

The back of the label must also show a wash schedule, as I can't see it on the front — if that's not there then this definitely is an "inventive certification".

There does appear to be a problem in the supply chain where out-of-region manufacturers are importing their goods via grey channels (mail-order, Amazon, eBay) with labels that look correct, but in fact are borrowed from a different garment, or fabricated altogether.  Not that ACP is going to check, but there are some parts of both standards that are obvious from a distance, namely the quantity of background material (the size of the garment), the balance between front and back (50% ±10%), and the width of the bands that must wrap the torso.

As ever, it'll only be a problem if it becomes a problem, YMMV, caveat emptor, mets ca dans ta poche et ton mouchoir par dessus, etc., etc.

Main reflective bands front and back are 140mm x 65mm. The narrowest reflective material is 50mm.  There is enough reflective material to meet at least ISO 20471 class 2.  Washing instructions are on label.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 07, 2019, 03:52:55 pm
If you're a bit warm in Normandy at night (not in Malaysia), undo the front Velcro/zip.

If you finish your event out-of-time due to the extra drag, you are welcome to come moaning to me.

I'm looking at this from a slightly different point, in that I'm gonna be 2 weeks earlier, and I'm doing L'Alpe d'Huez to Brest. So more southerly, less of a maritime climate, and with 2000km in my legs... The flapping of an open hivi seems suboptimal... 

I appreciate this is a thread about PBP, and I'm not actually riding PBP, but the basic principles of riding in France apply...

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 04:05:25 pm
It has the correct standard listed on the label. How can I as the end user be expected not to treat that in good faith?

I'm guessing french police are unlikely to worry about such things if you're wearing a hivi. If they do know about standards, and you show the label, surely that's enough?

I'm wondering what the doublespeak is that allows things to be incorrectly labelled.

This is the discussion on FB about a gilet off Wowow last year — https://www.facebook.com/groups/audaxtechetc/permalink/353732111871376/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/audaxtechetc/permalink/353732111871376/).  The upshot was that the label looked like it was for a different company.  Nevertheless, the TÜV certification had lapsed, presumably it was only for five years?  Or someone spotted its misappropriation?  Hard to tell, really, but trivial to attach a convincing-but-fake label to something made out-of-bloc.

As for interest from the Police — that's a load of "ifs", but at the end of the day if it's non-compliant then it's non-compliant.  To be compliant it must satisfy all the requirements of the standard, still be in good condition, AND be labelled correctly. 

But I agree — so long as looks broadly correct, nobody's going to check.  Like bike lights in the UK ...
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mattc on February 07, 2019, 04:10:23 pm
If you're a bit warm in Normandy at night (not in Malaysia), undo the front Velcro/zip.

If you finish your event out-of-time due to the extra drag, you are welcome to come moaning to me.

I'm looking at this from a slightly different point, in that I'm gonna be 2 weeks earlier, and I'm doing L'Alpe d'Huez to Brest. So more southerly, less of a maritime climate, and with 2000km in my legs... The flapping of an open hivi seems suboptimal... 

I appreciate this is a thread about PBP, and I'm not actually riding PBP, but the basic principles of riding in France apply...

J
Please see my advice above - it's pretty applicable to most of France, most of the time.

If you still get too hot, take off your jersey.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 07, 2019, 04:13:45 pm

Please see my advice above - it's pretty applicable to most of France, most of the time.

If you still get too hot, take off your jersey.

Cos women stripping off in public to change layers is always a great idea...

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 07, 2019, 04:42:43 pm
If you finish your event out-of-time due to the extra drag, you are welcome to come moaning to me.
Very good of you, Matt. I'd like to moan to you about the Flapjack from Chippenham in 2013, or maybe it was 2014 (come to that it might have been 2012), when the ridiculous constant headwind (coupled with a puncture and all the normal factors) caused me to finish out of time. I wasn't wearing hi-viz at the time, but this happened due to the extra drag, okay?

I'd also like to complain about the notorious Oxford-London night ride on which Rogerzilla and Hummers dressed as Widow Twankee and Cinderella (don't ask who was who). There was lots of extra drag on that ride.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SPB on February 07, 2019, 05:08:20 pm

This is the discussion on FB about a gilet off Wowow last year — https://www.facebook.com/groups/audaxtechetc/permalink/353732111871376/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/audaxtechetc/permalink/353732111871376/).  The upshot was that the label looked like it was for a different company.  Nevertheless, the TÜV certification had lapsed, presumably it was only for five years?  Or someone spotted its misappropriation?  Hard to tell, really, but trivial to attach a convincing-but-fake label to something made out-of-bloc.


Just had a look through that FB chat and can't see where it was suggested that the label was for a different company.  Wowow are a legitimate, European based company.  I'd be surprised if they were doing anything dodgy with EN certification, they're not a Chinese seller operating outside the reach of EU law on Ali-Express.

Mine:
(https://thumbsnap.com/s/RzJftbB2.jpg)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on February 07, 2019, 05:20:14 pm
If they are making illegitimate claims of conformity, they are being pretty methodical about it; rather than just sticking labels on things and hoping not to get caught...
https://www.wowow.be/about/declarations-of-conformity/


From that adult sized stuff what's on their website and the conformance list:

Urban Roadie Gillet is  EN1150
Urban Mesh Gillet is EN20471
Urban Light Wear 2.0 is EN1150
RaceViz Dark Jacket 1.1  is EN1150
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 06:18:42 pm
[Just had a look through that FB chat and can't see where it was suggested that the label was for a different company.  Wowow are a legitimate, European based company.  I'd be surprised if they were doing anything dodgy with EN certification, they're not a Chinese seller operating outside the reach of EU law on Ali-Express.

If they are making illegitimate claims of conformity, they are being pretty methodical about it; rather than just sticking labels on things and hoping not to get caught...

I think I was on the fence about it, but thanks — that looks like good info  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 07, 2019, 06:24:14 pm
Main reflective bands front and back are 140mm x 65mm. The narrowest reflective material is 50mm.  There is enough reflective material to meet at least ISO 20471 class 2.  Washing instructions are on label.

I thought 20471 required a standard illustration with a single number next to it to indicate class-conformance?  I see no figure on that label — are there two labels? 

Again, strictly it requires that figure, otherwise it's not a proper, certified wotsit, by my reading.  But only 'cos I'm a pedant.  And because it's Thursday.

FWIW, your's looks FAR more compliant in the labelling than my lightweight, breathable favourite, so I'm not trying to prove anything, just Pedantic Thursday  ::-)

And I'm looking forward to reading what others think when their's arrive  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 07, 2019, 06:32:54 pm


And I'm looking forward to reading what others think when their's arrive  :thumbsup:

I'm waiting for Pedantic Friday...

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: JonBuoy on February 07, 2019, 06:35:38 pm
Main reflective bands front and back are 140mm x 65mm. The narrowest reflective material is 50mm.  There is enough reflective material to meet at least ISO 20471 class 2.  Washing instructions are on label.

I thought 20471 required a standard illustration with a single number next to it to indicate class-conformance?  I see no figure on that label — are there two labels? 

Again, strictly it requires that figure, otherwise it's not a proper, certified wotsit, by my reading.  But only 'cos I'm a pedant.  And because it's Thursday.

FWIW, your's looks FAR more compliant in the labelling than my lightweight, breathable favourite, so I'm not trying to prove anything, just Pedantic Thursday  ::-)

And I'm looking forward to reading what others think when their's arrive  :thumbsup:

Never mind the label  -  20471 also requires:

Quote
Garments only covering the torso shall have one or more bands of retroreflective material encircling
the torso...
and
Quote
Any gap (for fastening systems and seams) in the lengthwise continuity of each band of retroreflective or
combined performance material shall not be greater than 50 mm, measured parallel to the direction of
the band, and the total of such gaps shall not be greater than 100 mm in any one band around the torso.

It doesn't look like the Freemove offering complies.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: fboab on February 07, 2019, 07:14:24 pm

Please see my advice above - it's pretty applicable to most of France, most of the time.

If you still get too hot, take off your jersey.

Cos women stripping off in public to change layers is always a great idea...

J
I wear this one (https://www.amazon.fr/L2S-Visioplus-Gilet-securit%C3%A9-adulte/dp/B00D8YQXEM?th=1&psc=1) with a sports bra.

And yes, I strip off the jersey in public. No one gives a shit.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Kim on February 07, 2019, 07:25:09 pm
It's a faff, but I don't have a particular problem (other than finding somewhere sensible to put my glasses) stripping down to a sports bra at the side of the road in order to remove a baselayer, or for emergency bee extraction.  Obviously it's not ideal next to a bus stop full of rowdy oiks, but if there are oiks around, there's probably a loo or something.

YMMV, of course; some people have scars they're self-conscious of, or have had bad experiences, or whatever.  And it's obviously not a good idea in the sort of countries us QUILTBAGs tend to think twice about visiting in the first place.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on February 07, 2019, 07:39:31 pm
It doesn't look like the Freemove offering complies.

I noted that their website says "Reflectivity standard EN20471" which is clearly bollocks since EN20471 is a PPE standard not reflectivity.
They seem to be based in Ohio.

Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on February 07, 2019, 07:45:02 pm
Having a bit of a dig around work wear websites


Hi-Vis T-Shirt, also DIN certified rather than BSI therefore less risk of becoming unrecognized after 29th March.
https://www.engelbert-strauss.co.uk/work-t-shirts/high-vis-functional-t-shirt-e-s-motion-2020-3210030-65616-778.html

Includes a zip on the front, dunnoh if forestry workers like to carry stuff in back pockets though
https://www.gplshop.co.uk/husqvarna-forest-garden-products/safety-equipment-clothing/clothes/t-shirt-technical-high-viz-short-sleeve-en-20471.php
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phantasmagoriana on February 07, 2019, 07:55:26 pm
It's a faff, but I don't have a particular problem (other than finding somewhere sensible to put my glasses) stripping down to a sports bra at the side of the road in order to remove a baselayer, or for emergency bee extraction.  Obviously it's not ideal next to a bus stop full of rowdy oiks, but if there are oiks around, there's probably a loo or something.

YMMV, of course; some people have scars they're self-conscious of, or have had bad experiences, or whatever.  And it's obviously not a good idea in the sort of countries us QUILTBAGs tend to think twice about visiting in the first place.

I always wear a baselayer - problem solved!
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Kim on February 07, 2019, 08:05:11 pm
I always wear a baselayer - problem solved!

Yes, but you're north of the wall...  :P
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mattc on February 07, 2019, 08:18:50 pm
I'd also like to complain about the notorious Oxford-London night ride on which Rogerzilla and Hummers dressed as Widow Twankee and Cinderella (don't ask who was who). There was lots of extra drag on that ride.
You can't make retrospective complaints, sorry!
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mattc on February 07, 2019, 08:22:18 pm

Please see my advice above - it's pretty applicable to most of France, most of the time.

If you still get too hot, take off your jersey.

Cos women stripping off in public to change layers is always a great idea...

J
I wear this one (https://www.amazon.fr/L2S-Visioplus-Gilet-securit%C3%A9-adulte/dp/B00D8YQXEM?th=1&psc=1) with a sports bra.

And yes, I strip off the jersey in public. No one gives a shit.
And it will probably be dark.

p.s. I hope it's a VC167 sports bra!
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 07, 2019, 09:03:41 pm
If it gets really hot there is hi vis underwear

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fVjU86golCc
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 07, 2019, 09:18:33 pm
Do the marshals make velomobilistes wear hi-viz vests too?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 07, 2019, 09:41:45 pm
It's a faff, but I don't have a particular problem (other than finding somewhere sensible to put my glasses) stripping down to a sports bra at the side of the road in order to remove a baselayer, or for emergency bee extraction.  Obviously it's not ideal next to a bus stop full of rowdy oiks, but if there are oiks around, there's probably a loo or something.

YMMV, of course; some people have scars they're self-conscious of, or have had bad experiences, or whatever.  And it's obviously not a good idea in the sort of countries us QUILTBAGs tend to think twice about visiting in the first place.

I have no main issue with my own body and Nudity, however I find that most others do not approve of me being topless.

As for sports bra. HAHAHAHAHA. My physio wants me to join a circuit training class to get some extra strength training. So I went to buy a sports bra. Turns out non of the highstreet shops in Amsterdam make sports bra's that go big enough for me. I ended up cycling out to Almere to a specialist sports bra shop, that whilst having dozens of different lines in stock, only had 3 that come in my size. I spent €100 on it. It's great for circuits, and running, but I did a 200 with it, and it's just not comfortable enough. I've kinda resigned myself to the fact I can't get sports bras that are a) in my size and b) comfortable for long distance cycling. You wouldn't think 38H is that big, but apparently, yes it is. It was a major regret the day I realised I'd forgotten to bring a sports bra when riding Paris Roubaix...

I don't tend to wear a base layer under my jersey as it's just too damn hot to do so.

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 07, 2019, 09:44:48 pm
Do the marshals make velomobilistes wear hi-viz vests too?

It's as well to have the hi-vis in the velomobile, as it's not entirely certain that you won't have to borrow a bike to finish with.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on February 08, 2019, 12:04:59 am
Do the marshals make velomobilistes wear hi-viz vests too?

It's as well to have the hi-vis in the velomobile, as it's not entirely certain that you won't have to borrow a bike to finish with.

I thought PBP requires one to finish on/in the same machine one started on/in?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on February 08, 2019, 06:24:21 am
There have been several (rare) instances of folk finishing on borrowed bicycles that were different to the ones they started with.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ivo on February 08, 2019, 07:18:43 am
There have been several (rare) instances of folk finishing on borrowed bicycles that were different to the ones they started with.

With permission of the ACP. This rule is a rumour from the past.

I can remember an occasion in '99.
I had dropped out already with stomach issues and was assisting with the Willesden Battle Van. At a certain moment a rider approached us. He had a broken drop out and was ferried by a marshall to the control. He asked if we had anything which could fix his drop out. We didn't but there was another bike of another dropped out rider on the van. So we quickly set up the bike for him and the marshall ferried him back to the point where he stopped.
A couple of hours later he was at the control again, now having arrived by bike. We fine tuned the bike for him and he finished.
Later one I read in a French bike mag that the chief controllers received a request from the control if it was permitted that he continued on a borrowed bike. This was permitted.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 08, 2019, 10:50:16 am
Do the marshals make velomobilistes wear hi-viz vests too?

It's as well to have the hi-vis in the velomobile, as it's not entirely certain that you won't have to borrow a bike to finish with.

I thought PBP requires one to finish on/in the same machine one started on/in?

The best documented one I have is this rider.
http://shprung.com/pbp/?mode=info&frame=W010

Heather interviewed him at the finish. I interviewed Bill Russell, who finished after Velomobile problems.
https://vimeo.com/316068283
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on February 08, 2019, 01:54:24 pm
Do the marshals make velomobilistes wear hi-viz vests too?

It's as well to have the hi-vis in the velomobile, as it's not entirely certain that you won't have to borrow a bike to finish with.

I thought PBP requires one to finish on/in the same machine one started on/in?

From https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1200.msg2481#msg2481
"The 1956 PBP, the last time 'seals' were used to prevent bike changes, saw 77 (from 106) Audax and 157 (from 250) Randonneur finishers coping with nasty weather."

https://cycling.ahands.org/pbp2003/history.html notes sealing the riders' machines for the first PBP race.

As Ivo noted, get permission from the PBP folk and there would be no problems with swapping bikes in the event of severe bike problems.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mattc on February 08, 2019, 02:32:06 pm
What's this rule for - is it to limit the benefits of support teams?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on February 08, 2019, 02:35:26 pm
Bike check vs. what you actually ride, I expect nowadays. Historically, PBP was a test of man (women's entries were returned in 1891) and machine. If the bike couldn't last the distance, it wasn't good enough.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Greenbank on February 08, 2019, 02:37:34 pm
Has the bike check got any more sophisticated? In 2011 I remember it was simply a sticker on the top tube, something that could easily be transferred or copied to a completely separate bike.

(I guess it would be a risk as there are plenty of marshals on the course and at controls to spot anything obviously verboten [tri-bars, brakeless fixed, etc].)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Exit Stage Left on February 08, 2019, 02:40:15 pm
As LWAB notes, PBP was a reliability trial, especially of machines. It was described as an épreuve, literally a test.

 
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ian gaggiaport on February 08, 2019, 05:37:22 pm
Has the bike check got any more sophisticated? In 2011 I remember it was simply a sticker on the top tube, something that could easily be transferred or copied to a completely separate bike.

(I guess it would be a risk as there are plenty of marshals on the course and at controls to spot anything obviously verboten [tri-bars, brakeless fixed, etc].)

The sticker was there to stop theft from the stadium as you collected your paperwork. It wasn't easy to remove without making a mess.

I can't remember the bike check in 2015.
I think they squeezed the brakes and checked you had lights.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mzjo on February 08, 2019, 10:50:01 pm
It's a faff, but I don't have a particular problem (other than finding somewhere sensible to put my glasses) stripping down to a sports bra at the side of the road in order to remove a baselayer, or for emergency bee extraction.  Obviously it's not ideal next to a bus stop full of rowdy oiks, but if there are oiks around, there's probably a loo or something.

YMMV, of course; some people have scars they're self-conscious of, or have had bad experiences, or whatever.  And it's obviously not a good idea in the sort of countries us QUILTBAGs tend to think twice about visiting in the first place.

I have no main issue with my own body and Nudity, however I find that most others do not approve of me being topless.

As for sports bra. HAHAHAHAHA. My physio wants me to join a circuit training class to get some extra strength training. So I went to buy a sports bra. Turns out non of the highstreet shops in Amsterdam make sports bra's that go big enough for me. I ended up cycling out to Almere to a specialist sports bra shop, that whilst having dozens of different lines in stock, only had 3 that come in my size. I spent €100 on it. It's great for circuits, and running, but I did a 200 with it, and it's just not comfortable enough. I've kinda resigned myself to the fact I can't get sports bras that are a) in my size and b) comfortable for long distance cycling. You wouldn't think 38H is that big, but apparently, yes it is. It was a major regret the day I realised I'd forgotten to bring a sports bra when riding Paris Roubaix...

I don't tend to wear a base layer under my jersey as it's just too damn hot to do so.

J

In France all you have to do is carry a big banner saying "I'm Dutch" and no-one will be the slightest bit surprised -all the dutch girls on holiday take their tops off all the time (and not to cover up with a hi-viz jacket afterwards). The areas where you would get hassled you would probably get hassled covered up like an eskimo in the arctic winter and most of them are not areas where you would want to be after dark alone on a pushbike (unless accompanied by a large and ferocious dog, preferably drooling at the thought of fresh human flesh). I live in such an area (and I have daughters too)!

What you think of as high temperatures are probably what we would consider normal. I used to have a clubmate who liked going up cols when the tar was melting (not my idea of fun but that's what he liked). You have to get used to it as best you can. The last couple of years I have worked outside in 40°,  30° at midnight is uncomfortable but 25° becomes quite acceptable. The first week of the summer is hard, afterwards it gets easier.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zacklaws on February 09, 2019, 11:41:48 am
Has the bike check got any more sophisticated? In 2011 I remember it was simply a sticker on the top tube, something that could easily be transferred or copied to a completely separate bike.

(I guess it would be a risk as there are plenty of marshals on the course and at controls to spot anything obviously verboten [tri-bars, brakeless fixed, etc].)

The sticker was there to stop theft from the stadium as you collected your paperwork. It wasn't easy to remove without making a mess.

I can't remember the bike check in 2015.
I think they squeezed the brakes and checked you had lights.

In 2015, someone had there bike stolen at the velodrome, I think it was a Swedish rider, just after the bike check and in the supposedly secure area whilst they went to collect their documentation in the velodrome. so the sticker made no difference. What I saw was that as you was exiting the area with your bike, the officials would match the number on your sticker with your documentation, but, I saw people walking out of the secure area pushing bikes unchallenged behind the officials whilst they was checking other peoples bikes.

The stickers themselves were very robust and did not come off the bikes that easily, I still have the remains of mine from 2015 still on my top tube. Shows how often I clean my bikes.

That was all the bike check was but they also bounced my bike to see if anything fell off. But, they must have heard about me and watching out for me as its very rare for something not to drop off my bike on an Audax, usually the lights or the mapboard along with the routecards at some point. Once rode the National 400 for about 4 miles or more to a checkpoint holding onto my mapboard as it was hanging off as the bolt had come undone.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: the straggler on February 09, 2019, 12:18:10 pm

What I saw was that as you was exiting the area with your bike, the officials would match the number on your sticker with your documentation, but, I saw people walking out of the secure area pushing bikes unchallenged behind the officials whilst they was checking other peoples bikes.


Seems what I recall in 2015, just an imbalance of security check officials available to the shear volume  of riders entering and exiting the secure area. I got away using a cheap flimsy combo chain lock on every control, but so many didn't bother locking their bikes at the controls.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on February 09, 2019, 12:21:02 pm
That is about the sum of it. Bounce your bike, check your lights front and back, add sticker, and exclaim manifique and smile at you.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ivo on February 09, 2019, 08:04:05 pm
For PBP I certainly will use a bike with a kick-stand and an integrated lock. The time gain in less faff and less risk is a lot higher as time loss due to the extra weight.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: aidan.f on February 09, 2019, 09:29:09 pm
Tricycle 4 me. Unlikely to be stolen and stays upright when you hop off.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: SR Steve on February 10, 2019, 09:38:26 am
I won’t bother locking my Specialized Roubaix during the PBP as it’s 10 years old and only has 105 10 speed kit fitted. There will be plenty of bikes worth 10, 20 or more times as much as mine that thieves are more likely to target. I might think differently if I had a newer, flashier bike.
Back on hi-vis vests, I wore an Audax UK one last time from when Pam Pilbeam was selling off surplus stock for £1 at an AGM. It’s XXL so way too big for me, but I sewed extra Velcro strips so it wrapped round me more, making it probably the only double breasted hi-vis on the ride!
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: T42 on February 10, 2019, 10:12:03 am
That is about the sum of it. Bounce your bike, check your lights front and back, add sticker, and exclaim manifique and smile at you.

My favourite pic from last time:

(https://pbase.com/johnewing/image/161109023.jpg)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: T42 on April 06, 2019, 08:26:20 am
New Highway Code for cyclists states that:

Quote
    Visibilité
        Obligatoires à tous moment, de jour comme de nuit :
            catadioptre arrière rouge (R313-18, 1ère classe), catadioptres orange latéraux (R313-19, 1ère classe),
            catadioptre avant blanc (R313-20, 1ère classe),
            catadioptre sur les pédales (R313-20, 1ère classe).
        Obligatoires seulement la nuit, ou le jour lorsque la visibilité est insuffisante (tunnel, brouillard,…) :
            feu de position avant jaune ou blanc (R313-4, 1ère classe) non clignotant (R313-25, 3ème classe), feu de position arrière rouge (R313-5, 1ère classe) d’intensité variable ; en outre le conducteur est tenu de les allumer (R416-10, 1ère classe),
            gilet haute visibilité lorsqu’on circule hors agglomération (R431-1-1, 2ème classe).
    avertisseur sonore ; obligatoire à tous moments ; tout appareil autre qu’un timbre ou un grelot est interdits, donc pas de cloches, sifflets, trompes et autres Airzound (R313-33, 1ère classe),
    tout dispositif d’éclairage ou de signalisation, autre que ceux prévus dans le code de la route et conformes à la réglementation, est interdit (R313-1, 1ère classe) ; le vélo ne doit donc être équipé que d’un seul feu que ce soit à l’avant ou à l’arrière; à noter l’autorisation des dispositifs écarteurs de danger à l’arrière et à gauche (R313-20).
    freins : tout cycle doit être muni de deux dispositifs de freinage efficaces (R315-3, 1ère classe),
    le port du casque n’est pas obligatoire à vélo (R431-1) sauf pour les moins de 12 ans (R431-1-3, 4ème classe)
    interdiction de porter tout dispositif susceptible d’émettre du son à l’oreille (oreillette, casque audio) (R412-6-1, 4ème classe)


Which, being translated with Google's usual 100% accuracy, yields:

Quote
Visibility
        Mandatory at all times, day and night:
            red rear reflector (R313-18, 1st class), orange retro-reflectors (R313-19, 1st class),
            front reflector white (R313-20, 1st class),
            reflex reflector on the pedals (R313-20, 1st class).
        Mandatory only at night, or during the day when visibility is insufficient (tunnel, fog, ...):
            yellow or white (R313-4, 1st class) front position lamp, non-flashing (R313-25, 3rd class), red (R313-5, 1st class) rear position lamp of variable intensity; in addition the driver is obliged to light them (R416-10, 1st class),
            High visibility vest when riding out of town (R431-1-1, 2nd class).
    buzzer ; mandatory at all times; any device other than a stamp or a bell is prohibited, so no bells, whistles, horns and other Airzound (R313-33, 1st class),
    any lighting or signaling device, other than those provided for in the Highway Code and in compliance with the regulations, is prohibited (R313-1, 1st class); the bicycle must therefore be equipped with only one light at the front or at the rear; note the authorization of the rear and left-hand danger retractor devices (R313-20).
    brakes: every cycle shall be provided with two effective braking devices (R315-3, 1st class),
    the helmet is not obligatory by bicycle (R431-1) except for the under 12s (R431-1-3, 4th class)
    prohibition to wear any device likely to emit sound by ear (earpiece, headphones) (R412-6-1, 4th class)


Where "class" refers to the fines for contravention, to wit:

1ère classe    11€
2ème classe    35€
3ème classe    68€
4ème classe    135€

Bon appétit.

Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on April 06, 2019, 09:04:56 am

That is typical of most nations road traffic rules. In general that is interpreted by most as having 1 light turned on at any given time. Having two on the handle bars, but only using one. Ultimately tho, most police aren't going to care if you're lit, but not obnoxiously so. But if a cop wants to give you trouble, it does add just more ammunition.

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: T42 on April 06, 2019, 10:47:38 am
Couldn't agree more.

I'd like to see "any device likely to emit sound by ear (earpiece, headphones)" applied to pedestrials* on cycles tracks.

* typo but I rather like it.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on April 06, 2019, 02:23:07 pm
So I need only one light, now to decide whether to go for front or rear.  Rear is easier as battery life is a non issue.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on April 06, 2019, 02:48:33 pm
So I need only one light, now to decide whether to go for front or rear.  Rear is easier as battery life is a non issue.

I meant 1 light at each end of the bike. Tho I can see where the ambiguity is in both what I wrote, and the translation of the French...

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: T42 on April 06, 2019, 03:16:00 pm
The original French works pretty hard at being ambiguous too.

UAF rules used to require that if a dynamo light was used there had to be a battery back-up light as well.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 06, 2019, 09:40:31 pm
The original French works pretty hard at being ambiguous too.

UAF rules used to require that if a dynamo light was used there had to be a battery back-up light as well.
Did they say anything about oil lights though?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on April 07, 2019, 11:18:36 pm
The French are still hanging onto Selectif yellow then...

If they insist on only 1 beam mounted at a time try some electrical tape over the light source.

My first thought is "These are the Dutch rules translated into French, both in language and style"


Where are the Orange retro-reflectors to be?

From using
ARTICLE R313-19 DU CODE DE LA ROUTE
Catadioptres latéraux
I. - Tout véhicule à moteur dont la longueur dépasse 6 mètres, toute remorque, tout cyclomoteur à deux roues doit être muni d'un ou de deux catadioptres latéraux, non triangulaires, de couleur orangée.
II. - Tout autre véhicule à moteur peut être muni d'un ou de deux catadioptres latéraux, non triangulaires, de couleur orangée.

Shoving it into Google translate and ignoring the word "Motor" I get the suspicion it would need to be wheel reflectors, which is a bit of a ball ache if riding around europe since in other places it's white reflective surfaces on wheels
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 07, 2019, 11:36:02 pm
If riding around Europe it's Vienna rules (and/or the pragmatism of local cops).
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: T42 on April 08, 2019, 08:53:35 am
A couple of years back the gendarmerie conducted a goodwill exercise whereby they stopped people who were cycling without lights and gave them clip-on lights, a hi-viz vest and a set of 3M spoke reflectors, which are white; so I reckon the orangeness of lateral catadioptrics is really critical. They might get pissed off at police-whirligig blue, though.

I use black reflective tape on the rims à la Teethgrinder, and I stick another bit on the sides of my SPD pedals.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mattc on April 08, 2019, 10:16:08 am
If riding around Europe it's Vienna rules (and/or the pragmatism of local cops).
Does anyone else confuse
Vienna Rules with
Moscow Rules?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on April 08, 2019, 03:52:59 pm
When these types of molly-coddling rules are introduced, often they're done so with grammas and kidzies in mind, and there's an exemption of various parts for sports cycles.  E.g. in Germany all bikes must be sold with a dyno front wheel, except bikes lighter than 10kg, or something?

Is there such an exemption here?

What about Tour de France, esp. when they're out on training rides (i.e. on open roads) — will they be subject to the same?

Seems silly.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on April 08, 2019, 05:49:17 pm
If riding around Europe it's Vienna rules (and/or the pragmatism of local cops).
Does anyone else confuse
Vienna Rules with
Moscow Rules?

No but I confuse the Venice convention on Road Traffic with the Geneva Convention.
Thankfully the predecessor on the Venice Convention for Road Traffic was the Geneva Convention on Road Traffic


OH does this also mean we need to carry GB stickers (or what ever for the non-GB based)

Venice 1968 implemented 1977

Chapter V
CONDITIONS FOR THE ADMISSION OF CYCLES AND MOPEDS TO INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC
ARTICLE 44
1. Cycles without an engine in international traffic shall:
(a) Have an efficient brake;
(b) Be equipped with a bell capable of being heard at a sufficient
distance, and carry no other audible warning device;
(c) Be equipped with a red reflecting device at the rear and with devices
such that the cycle can show a white or selective-yellow light to the front and a
red light to the rear.


Geneva 1949
CHAPTER VI. PROVISIONS APPLICABLE TO CYCLES IN INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC
Article 26

Every cycle shall be equipped with:

(a) at least one efficient brake;

(b) an audible warning device consisting of a bell, to the exclusion of any other audible warning device, capable of being heard at a reasonable distance;

(c) a white or yellow light in front and a red light or a red reflex reflector in the rear from nightfall and during the night or when atmospheric conditions render it necessary.


Can't find any text for the 1926 Paris Convetion
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on April 08, 2019, 05:50:40 pm
When these types of molly-coddling rules are introduced, often they're done so with grammas and kidzies in mind, and there's an exemption of various parts for sports cycles.  E.g. in Germany all bikes must be sold with a dyno front wheel, except bikes lighter than 10kg, or something?

Is there such an exemption here?

What about Tour de France, esp. when they're out on training rides (i.e. on open roads) — will they be subject to the same?

Seems silly.

The German rules still require compliant lighting for cycles intended for racing, it's just that Battery power is acceptable for them.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 08, 2019, 05:58:11 pm
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Kim on April 08, 2019, 06:21:01 pm
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.

Yeah, fitting dynamos to e-bikes was getting daft.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 08, 2019, 06:34:16 pm
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.
Batter power: what you need when it's as flat as a pancake.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on April 08, 2019, 08:45:45 pm
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.

Yeah, fitting dynamos to e-bikes was getting daft.

Ah missed that as I've not read B&M marketing bumpf for a Battery light since I got a hub generator.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Kim on April 08, 2019, 09:53:07 pm
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.

Yeah, fitting dynamos to e-bikes was getting daft.

Ah missed that as I've not read B&M marketing bumpf for a Battery light since I got a hub generator.

E-bike lights are honorary dynamo lights in all the ways that count (fit and forget, robust design).  And if you're going to lug a whopping great battery around, it makes sense to power the lights from it.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on April 08, 2019, 10:36:54 pm
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.

Yeah, fitting dynamos to e-bikes was getting daft.

Ah missed that as I've not read B&M marketing bumpf for a Battery light since I got a hub generator.

E-bike lights are honorary dynamo lights in all the ways that count (fit and forget, robust design).  And if you're going to lug a whopping great battery around, it makes sense to power the lights from it.

Aye but the bumpf used to mention the 10kg limit in StVzO but no longer does, just says the battery lights comply with it.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on April 09, 2019, 01:46:48 am
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.
Batter power: what you need when it's as flat as a pancake.  :facepalm:

Oh? What's the logic in that?

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 09, 2019, 09:07:25 am
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.
Batter power: what you need when it's as flat as a pancake.  :facepalm:

Oh? What's the logic in that?

J
Presuming you mean the logic in changing the rules to allow battery lights, I think it was just accepting reality. In technological terms, the ubiquity of the LED means you can get more light from batteries now than you could from dynamos in the past and the batteries last long enough not to be a problem. And in practical terms, everyone was using them anyway, and better to have battery lights than none. Possibly also commercial pressure from B&M in order to better access other markets?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: quixoticgeek on April 09, 2019, 09:42:35 am
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.
Batter power: what you need when it's as flat as a pancake.  :facepalm:

Oh? What's the logic in that?

J
Presuming you mean the logic in changing the rules to allow battery lights, I think it was just accepting reality. In technological terms, the ubiquity of the LED means you can get more light from batteries now than you could from dynamos in the past and the batteries last long enough not to be a problem. And in practical terms, everyone was using them anyway, and better to have battery lights than none. Possibly also commercial pressure from B&M in order to better access other markets?

I was actually asking about the dynamo use in very flat terrain...

J
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Wycombewheeler on April 09, 2019, 09:55:34 am
They changed the rules a few years ago so batter power is now acceptable for all bikes. And trikes, I presume.
Batter power: what you need when it's as flat as a pancake.  :facepalm:

Oh? What's the logic in that?

J
Its a pun based on the typo
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ajax Bay on April 09, 2019, 11:30:08 am
Its a pun based on the typo
And an excellent opportunist typo exploitation, appreciated silently (well maybe a sotto voce chuckle) by many, no doubt.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: yanto on April 09, 2019, 12:02:13 pm
Its a pun based on the typo
And excellent opportunist typo exploitation, appreciated silently (well maybe a sotto voce chuckle) by many, no doubt.

Indeed it was appreciated thus!
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: mattc on April 09, 2019, 12:37:31 pm
Pfft. I've seen batter typos than that.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on April 09, 2019, 10:43:24 pm
And back to batteries and dynamos ... although all my road bikes have dynamos (well, I have two dyno wheels, one black one silver, and swap as necessary for colour-coordination), my MTB does not.  I simply don't go fast enough when I'm riding it in Wales — there's no point riding it in the bit of England where I's live.  I have been VERY impressed with these cheap lights off Amanoz —

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0765SV34Z/ (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0765SV34Z/)

Gives about 7 hours on low-setting, which is actually more than enough light for relaxed road-riding, certainly in a group.  And costs less than a tenner.  And doesn't weigh enough to worry about.

I also use it riding forest trails in Wales, although I do tend to ride with a Blackburn Super Flea augmented with a Cree monster on my helmet for the technical bits.

The technology has all greatly moved on from when I had a mahoosive Specialized halogen light with four C-sized batteries to power it.  If I was starting again from scratch, I would definitely consider just battery lights and a power pack.  It's only cuz I already have dyno wheels that I'll keep using them — and the light I get from my IQ2 Cyo is superb.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on April 09, 2019, 10:45:16 pm
Venice 1968 implemented 1977

Interesting.  So ... French rules for French cyclists only, then?  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on April 10, 2019, 12:41:46 am
Venice 1968 implemented 1977

Interesting.  So ... French rules for French cyclists only, then?  :thumbsup:

Wikis---ica summary:
The vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration. Any conflicting technical requirements (e.g., right-hand-drive or left-hand-drive) in the signatory country where the vehicle is being driven do not apply.

But... Cycles aren't registered...
:Shrug:
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on July 20, 2019, 10:39:46 pm
Back on the Hi-Vis, now I'm properly planning the ride down and back (or at least train hop)
I see no mention of which class of EN ISO 20471 is required, but may have missed it...

Mesh front, solid back, class 2
https://www.hivis.co.uk/hi-vis-half-mesh-safety-vest-portwest.html

full mesh
https://www.onlinesafetysupplies.co.uk/workwear/hi-vis-clothing/hi-vis-waistcoats-and-jerkins/b-seen-hi-vis-yellow-mesh-vest/?gclid=CjwKCAjw98rpBRAuEiwALmo-ytpCPGigc9cctf0nuNgNb8U_dQQyuLWrhJch6FkktogP5fk8Ma-oRBoCXR0QAvD_BwE

Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on July 21, 2019, 08:33:23 am
The class refers to the minimum amount of reflective material, with class 3 having the most reflective area.  Vests / gilets will be class 2 on their own, jackets / long sleeve class 3, or combine a vest with class 1 ankle reflective said you'll get an overall class 3.

In short, class 2 is what you'll expect for a gilet and will match what the PBP Gilet is. Bit like many things I doubt you'll get stopped on the way down in the dark if you are wearing a hiviz of any sort. On the way back you'll have your PBP one.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 21, 2019, 09:34:16 am
Mesh front, solid back: is that a telig?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on July 21, 2019, 12:22:45 pm
The class refers to the minimum amount of reflective material, with class 3 having the most reflective area.  Vests / gilets will be class 2 on their own, jackets / long sleeve class 3, or combine a vest with class 1 ankle reflective said you'll get an overall class 3.

In short, class 2 is what you'll expect for a gilet and will match what the PBP Gilet is. Bit like many things I doubt you'll get stopped on the way down in the dark if you are wearing a hiviz of any sort. On the way back you'll have your PBP one.

Aye, I knew that but confused myself last night, I was actually thinking of the lack of vertical reflective lines on the first one.
Other posters in here mentioned they found the PBP one to be problematic as they overheated in various ways with it on, hence looking for mesh ones.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Dtcman on July 24, 2019, 02:12:52 pm
Whilst I think the PBP ones are good quality they are a bit thick/heavy (certainly the last two were). I have just bought a lightweight mesh one off fleabay £5.36 delivered and it's not bad at all:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yoko-Hi-Vis-Open-Mesh-Waistcoat-Jacket-Mens-Breathable-Lightweight-Vest-HVW120/162423449844?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ajax Bay on August 01, 2019, 10:38:49 pm
Whilst I think the PBP ones are good quality they are a bit thick/heavy (certainly the last two were). I have just bought a lightweight mesh one off fleabay £5.36 delivered and it's not bad at all:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yoko-Hi-Vis-Open-Mesh-Waistcoat-Jacket-Mens-Breathable-Lightweight-Vest-HVW120/162423449844?
I too have bought one of these (in orange for £5.47) and am pleased with the mesh (it meets the required EN) and with a bit of tailoring and some additional velcro will do the business. The smallest size is a reasonable fit for my 39" chest. Ordered Monday: arrived Thursday. Thank you for sharing, @Dtcman.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: cygnet on August 01, 2019, 11:10:46 pm
I too have bought one of these (in orange for £5.47) and am pleased with the mesh (it meets the required EN) and with a bit of tailoring and some additional velcro will do the business. The smallest size is a reasonable fit for my 39" chest. Ordered Monday: arrived Thursday. Thank you for sharing, @Dtcman.

Are you certified to the EN standard to make your tailoring adjustments?  The "required EN"  is on the basis of "as sold" and if you modify it it's redundant.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ajax Bay on August 02, 2019, 10:17:06 am
I too have bought one of these (in orange for £5.47) and am pleased with the mesh (it meets the required EN) and with a bit of tailoring and some additional velcro will do the business. The smallest size is a reasonable fit for my 39" chest. Ordered Monday: arrived Thursday. Thank you for sharing, @Dtcman.

Are you certified to the EN standard to make your tailoring adjustments?  The "required EN"  is on the basis of "as sold" and if you modify it it's redundant.
Thank you for the laugh. Tell me, @cygnet: are you going to be on a moto acting as a commissaire on the Sunday between Senonches and Villaines checking for gilets which, through tailoring, no longer meet the requirements of the EN? This is France. This is PBP.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: dubya on August 02, 2019, 07:45:03 pm
I'm just going to use the PBP supplied vest.  It may flap and may be boil-in-the-bag but it's the vest supplied for the event.  For me this is just one part of the charm / experience ( remind me of this 2am Thursday morning ) of PBP. Oh and mine is definitely going to flap, I've lost 8kg (hopefully 10kg by Paris) since ordering
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on August 02, 2019, 08:03:17 pm
I've ordered the medium and realised I went large last time.  So need to keep the weight off between now and then.  It is pretty warm and works as a warm layer over just your jersey. So my jacket will be reserved for any overnight rain I guess. I do have a mesh one for the ride down and back that'll probably be with me on the ride anyway. Forecast two weeks out looking ok temp wise.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: JBB on August 02, 2019, 08:46:03 pm
I've ordered the medium and realised I went large last time.  So need to keep the weight off between now and then.  It is pretty warm and works as a warm layer over just your jersey. So my jacket will be reserved for any overnight rain I guess. I do have a mesh one for the ride down and back that'll probably be with me on the ride anyway. Forecast two weeks out looking ok temp wise.

I've ordered a large on the basis if it's too big I can swap with an optimist. What time is your bike check? ;D
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on August 02, 2019, 09:00:34 pm
Bike check is 1515, time for lazy morning and lunch first
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: JBB on August 02, 2019, 10:53:18 pm
Bike check is 1515, time for lazy morning and lunch first

15.45.....
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on August 07, 2019, 09:39:31 pm
is "sam browne" type belt ok instead of full reflective vest? i'd much prefer wearing that given the choice, and have it on during the whole ride. (saw it shown on a pbp board game in another thread)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: αdαmsκι on August 07, 2019, 09:51:16 pm
Dunno Zigzag but as you'll know the gilet last time was boil in the bag.

I'm tempted to order something like this:

https://btrsports.co.uk/products/high-visibility-reflective-vest-sash-bib-for-running-cycling-horse-riding-and-more

It runs the risk of someone stopping me on the road but I doubt that'll happen as I'll have something hi Vis on, even if it isn't the official gilet
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on August 07, 2019, 09:55:59 pm
i was looking at exactly the same thing! (only on amazon)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: αdαmsκι on August 07, 2019, 10:11:05 pm
Want me to order two as it's half price for the second one? Colour preference?

(I'll be around next week for you to collect).
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on August 07, 2019, 10:21:53 pm
Officially the garment must conform to the EN ISO blah blah blah standard because that's what french law says...
How ACP and the french polis are going to enforce it is another question.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on August 07, 2019, 10:43:16 pm
Well you can but wear the no sweat option and carry the official vest. If stopped, swap them over, carrying on for a bit, then swap back later.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on August 07, 2019, 11:00:15 pm
Want me to order two as it's half price for the second one? Colour preference?

(I'll be around next week for you to collect).

oops, saw it too late!.. but thanks for the offer.

in reality this type of vest is more visible at night - from all directions - if one cares about true safety effect. the common (en1055) builders type vest is only visible from the sides and does not reflect from front or back when i'm on aerobars - not very good unless one rides in upright(ish) position.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zacklaws on August 08, 2019, 03:55:50 pm
The only problem with wearing an item of reflective clothing that is different to what the organizers provide you with is, it stands out like a beacon on a night even amongst a group of other riders as being completely different. The officials on motorcycles would not have to come looking for riders wearing non conforming reflectives, the riders doing so would present themselves nicely in the beam of the motorcycles headlight and if they are having a bad day, may stop you, probably unlikely, but you never know. In 2015, there was a rider on a motorcycle who was stroppy with riders enforcing that they should be wearing them well before dusk, I fell foul of him myself and he had 2 or 3 goes at me before I decided I better put it on before I got a time penalty, as it was hot and about an hour or more before dusk, I just took my jersey off and wore the reflective till it cooled down.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on August 08, 2019, 04:13:21 pm
it's good to stand out and be visible! :) i don't recall many riders in our group wearing the official vests, everyone had their own idea of reflective outfit, and there were a fair few wearing reflective elastic straps. being visible at night mainly comes from proper front/rear lights, the vest is an added safety feature in case the lights die for whatever reason.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: dubya on August 08, 2019, 04:17:12 pm
A friend of mine is in Insurance, works in mitigation - basically the person who works to lower or stop payouts.  I've just asked him whether to wear or not wear the organisers hi-viz.  He was quite clear that if a rider wasn't wearing the organisers supplied vest that would be a key negotiating point.  He felt it could be reasonably argued that the organisers vest identified an  exhausted rider from on the endurance event.  Whether that is of any concern to individuals remains to be seen, and of course has to be judged on a case by case basis.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: simonp on August 08, 2019, 04:24:38 pm
Bike check is 1515, time for lazy morning and lunch first

15.45.....

I'm piggy in the middle then.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: FifeingEejit on August 08, 2019, 04:52:18 pm
Want me to order two as it's half price for the second one? Colour preference?

(I'll be around next week for you to collect).

oops, saw it too late!.. but thanks for the offer.

in reality this type of vest is more visible at night - from all directions - if one cares about true safety effect. the common (en1055) builders type vest is only visible from the sides and does not reflect from front or back when i'm on aerobars - not very good unless one rides in upright(ish) position.

aye but this is about meeting french legal requirements to keep the organizers and their insurance company happy...

Luminous colours dont' do much at night anyway, it's the retroreflectives, and retroreflective visibility is dependent on a lightsource hitting it.
In reality a suitably iluminated set of lights are going to be visible long before the reflective bands of a garment that's designed for the purposes of making people stand out in daylight conditions in order to prevent crane operators dropping pallets of bricks on other workers etc.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Greenbank on August 08, 2019, 06:09:57 pm
Retroreflectives are more for oblique angles where your lights aren't shining brightly, the most extreme will be from right angles to your direction of travel. Classic example would be approaching/passing a T-junction with a car arriving from side on.

Your forward facing lights will be spraying some light to the sides, but not that much. Modern bike lights try to be more visible to the sides but they're far from great, especially when riding past hedges/walls that block out the bulk of the light from the bike lights.

Car headlights bouncing off retroreflectives should make you far more visible.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ajax Bay on August 08, 2019, 06:30:31 pm
@zigzag "my child-sized vest was fine (i.e. snug fit and ending above jersey pockets for convenience) last time and i'm planning to use it again this year."
Surely the only requirement is Not To Be Hassled By Jobsworths, who won't have read any standard but will be familiar with the PBP gilet, so you want something that looks superficially similar to that . . . .
This ^^^^^ (my emboldening)
Straps/double 'Sam Brownes' do so obviously not meet either the French law or the explicit PBP Rule 9 (written to make the standard very clear cf previous PBPs) that a wearer is taking a risk of hassle for small advantage. Actual conspicuity (relative or otherwise) is irrelevant. Forecast looks as if it will be benign (ie 18 degrees in the wee hours) so bitb to be avoided. Go for the @Vorsprung look.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ivo on August 08, 2019, 07:09:39 pm
A friend of mine is in Insurance, works in mitigation - basically the person who works to lower or stop payouts.  I've just asked him whether to wear or not wear the organisers hi-viz.  He was quite clear that if a rider wasn't wearing the organisers supplied vest that would be a key negotiating point.  He felt it could be reasonably argued that the organisers vest identified an  exhausted rider from on the endurance event.  Whether that is of any concern to individuals remains to be seen, and of course has to be judged on a case by case basis.

Did you tell him that the organiser's one is a lot hotter as other ones on the market (other ones complying to French law) which can lead to health issues for the rider involved?
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: dubya on August 08, 2019, 09:58:22 pm



Did you tell him that the organiser's one is a lot hotter as other ones on the market (other ones complying to French law) which can lead to health issues for the rider involved?

No, I just ask what would his view be if I used my hiviz rather than the supplied.  He just felt it would have 'wiggle room' and I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to internet shopping sites! 

Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Ivo on August 08, 2019, 10:17:45 pm



Did you tell him that the organiser's one is a lot hotter as other ones on the market (other ones complying to French law) which can lead to health issues for the rider involved?

No, I just ask what would his view be if I used my hiviz rather than the supplied.  He just felt it would have 'wiggle room' and I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to internet shopping sites!

So it's for people with my kind of issue a choice between pest and cholera.
Give these kind of insurance lawyers a chance to act or face an angry boss when you turn in sick after PBP because your shoulder packed due to overheating.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zacklaws on August 09, 2019, 08:31:18 am
I never found the reflective issued in 2015 hot apart for when that official told me to put it on well before dusk when the sun was shining but just taking my jersey off resolved it then it was pleasantly cool. But, when I saw people wearing them well into the morning and all day and depending on what they had underneath then it could be easy to blame them for being hot. Riders were probably even putting extra layers on for the night in expectation of it getting cold and then putting the reflective on and not considering that that also is an extra layer which will keep you warm but leads to overheating. But, as a rule, I just wore mine over my jersey with nothing else on a night as a layer to keep warm and removed it at some point after dawn when it started to warm up and never got hot in it. And if it did get hot, then you just unzip it if you have too.

In reality, the simple reflective gillet is not going to be to hot, its what you have underneath that contributes to you being hot.

Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: wilkyboy on August 09, 2019, 10:41:11 am
In reality, the simple reflective gillet is not going to be to hot, its what you have underneath that contributes to you being hot.

I hear what you say, but for me that's not the case — the gilet is hot, my core just burned up in 2015 with it on, except for Monday night when it got down to 6°C.  My preferred, mesh-back gilet is part of my night-time layering system, but the PBP non-mesh gilet is just too hot — for me — in summer.

FWIW, I can ride in a short-sleeve jersey and no gloves in dry conditions in hilly country (Wales) down to about 5°C, I really do generate that much heat, and I'm not the only rider like that.  I wore shorts or knickers all last winter, the full-lengths didn't make a showing.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on August 27, 2019, 03:14:24 pm
if the winner (b169) of pbp was ok wearing (non e1150) reflective straps does that make it ok for everyone to wear anything remotely hi-viz/reflective? from looking around i'd say half or more riders were non-compliant at night, some didn't even bother putting anything reflective or hi-viz in the dark even ignoring requests from moto riders :facepalm:

(http://cyclo-long-cours.fr/wp-content/gallery/pbp2019/20190819-DSC_2980.jpg)
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on August 27, 2019, 03:34:49 pm
The motos weren’t sufficiently robust in getting riders to follow the rules. I’m drafting an email to ACP about the good and bad things from this edition and other riders should do the same.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: phil w on August 27, 2019, 03:39:10 pm
if the winner (b169) of pbp was ok wearing (non e1150) reflective straps does that make it ok for everyone to wear anything remotely hi-viz/reflective? from looking around i'd say half or more riders were non-compliant at night, some didn't even bother putting anything reflective or hi-viz in the dark even ignoring requests from moto riders :facepalm:

(http://cyclo-long-cours.fr/wp-content/gallery/pbp2019/20190819-DSC_2980.jpg)

Surely the faster rider Hajo, F085 is the winner? Not that PBP has winner, just fastest rider.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Exit Stage Left on August 27, 2019, 03:52:36 pm
All the information I have is that Marko Baloh is the fastest Vedette, and I've got footage of him putting on a PBP 2015 vest at Loudeac on the return.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on August 27, 2019, 03:59:59 pm
All the information I have is that Marko Baloh is the fastest Vedette, and I've got footage of him putting on a PBP 2015 vest at Loudeac on the return.
according to chip times:

b169 44:47:36
b016 44:48:47
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: rob on August 27, 2019, 04:02:45 pm
All the information I have is that Marko Baloh is the fastest Vedette, and I've got footage of him putting on a PBP 2015 vest at Loudeac on the return.

A group of 3 finished together - it was on Marko's Facebook page.   That said they crossed 'the finish line' together but that as we know now wasn't the finish line as that was hidden round the corner.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on August 27, 2019, 04:07:18 pm
if the winner (b169) of pbp was ok wearing (non e1150) reflective straps does that make it ok for everyone to wear anything remotely hi-viz/reflective? from looking around i'd say half or more riders were non-compliant at night, some didn't even bother putting anything reflective or hi-viz in the dark even ignoring requests from moto riders :facepalm:

Surely the faster rider Hajo, F085 is the winner? Not that PBP has winner, just fastest rider.

velomobiles are a different class, so they don't count in the same (general) classification as far as i'm concerned.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: rob on August 27, 2019, 04:12:47 pm
The motos weren’t sufficiently robust in getting riders to follow the rules. I’m drafting an email to ACP about the good and bad things from this edition and other riders should do the same.

I was definitely told by a moto rider to put my gilet on last time even through I didn't think it was really dusk at the time.   We were told leaving one control this time to put gilets on before they let us out of the bike parking.

I didn't see anyone getting a bollocking this time, though.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: simonp on August 27, 2019, 04:18:23 pm
Motos asked if I was ok a couple of times. Everyone seemed to have the gilets on around me, at night. Some with no/poor lights.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: Exit Stage Left on August 27, 2019, 04:33:52 pm
All the information I have is that Marko Baloh is the fastest Vedette, and I've got footage of him putting on a PBP 2015 vest at Loudeac on the return.
according to chip times:

b169 44:47:36
b016 44:48:47

The chip times don't reflect the reality. In racing terms the Rambouillet start is a 'depart fictif'. The actual start is when the lead vehicles pull off. Before that the field is controlled at about 30kph. Marko was off in the B group, so the comparison should be between the A,B,C,D and E, departs reels. Marko was the first over the line, but must have passed over the start timer before B169. It's a road race in format, not a time trial.

Ken Tax was in the A group. Hajo arrived just a minute later than the first group of three.
Title: Re: PBP hi viz vest
Post by: zigzag on August 27, 2019, 04:55:28 pm
All the information I have is that Marko Baloh is the fastest Vedette, and I've got footage of him putting on a PBP 2015 vest at Loudeac on the return.
according to chip times:

b169 44:47:36
b016 44:48:47

The chip times don't reflect the reality. In racing terms the Rambouillet start is a 'depart fictif'. The actual start is when the lead vehicles pull off. Before that the field is controlled at about 30kph. Marko was off in the B group, so the comparison should be between the A,B,C,D and E, departs reels. Marko was the first over the line, but must have passed over the start timer before B169. It's a road race in format, not a time trial.

Ken Tax was in the A group. Hajo arrived just a minute later than the first group of three.

maybe, but i'd view it more as a time trial because the starting waves can be hours apart. i've also found this article (http://www.leparisien.fr/yvelines-78/rambouillet-les-premiers-randonneurs-de-paris-brest-paris-sont-revenus-21-08-2019-8136813.php?utm_campaign=facebook_partage&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR1HXVbaFC_h-i9fGR1hT-a7XWurZalRrpdIl4M5mrMDvY2nHg5NKWQTOtU), saying that Marko was second.