Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Health & Fitness => Topic started by: Frenchie on March 28, 2008, 01:05:41 pm

Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 28, 2008, 01:05:41 pm
I used to run. Now I only jog really, but I do that when I travel and in the winter when light means I cannot enjoy long enough evenings (and I don´treally enjoy the turbo trainer).

Anyway back running again, 30 min. each day. The Argentinean climate is spoiling me really, as dry, warm weather conditions (although clammy at times) mean it is much easier to go out here than it is in rainy Britain! My morning jogs feel quite eay at the moment, showing that cycling has helped me maintain a good endurance base. I attacked a couple of inclines today and it felt great. I just need to be careful with the pounding.

I wonder how Grub´s doing?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on March 28, 2008, 09:00:04 pm
Grub has not been out again since.  I will go out again in the morning.  I have ridden all week instead as I had to, and I don't start my holiday until Tuesday - and we fly out on Wednesday, so no running in Australia until Friday morning I reckon.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on March 28, 2008, 09:17:43 pm
I did my usual 5 mile run yesterday, felt good until 4 miles when I had problems with my right hip and extreme pain.

It has settled a little bit but this concerns me slightly, I wonder if it was the steep incline that I tackled and perhaps ran a little too fast.  I notice my times are improving so I am not overly concerned if I have to slow down a little.  I normally run with someone else and tend to go slower when I run with them, I think I run too fast on my own.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on March 28, 2008, 09:19:03 pm
Do you think it is because you find a rhythm?
What caused the hip to flare up?
A mis-step?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 28, 2008, 10:45:49 pm
Yeah! I am ahead of Grub in bike run journal!!

Feeling really good and using my runs to go around the place. Run along the Parana river this morning it was lovely! I am planning to go a bit further this WE. Next week Brazil.  8)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on March 28, 2008, 10:47:38 pm
As you can see, I am not amused  ;D
You are being the devil.
You know I am a sucker for a competition.
But, I have a mentor, and he tells me I need to get same base miles in before I start to be silly.
So I am not playing  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 28, 2008, 10:58:04 pm
As you can see, I am not amused  ;D
You are being the devil.
You know I am a sucker for a competition.
But, I have a mentor, and he tells me I need to get same base miles in before I start to be silly.
So I am not playing  ;)

Are you suggesting I wait for you?!  ::)

Indeed get the base miles in, then play; it´ll be more fun then. I think my base is no far off, so I may be able to play soon. But so far I am still doing my 30 min. rounds.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on March 29, 2008, 12:02:10 am
No don't wait.  I want the thrill of overtaking you.
I may draft for a bit and then sucker you.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on March 29, 2008, 12:38:00 pm
Went out this morning.  Felt stronger for some reason.  Can't be base yet as I've only just started.
I decided to change the route to just road as I don't think my knees can cope with the uneven surface of the canal yet.  Perhaps when I am stronger and the tow path is not so wet and slippery I will enjoy it more.

I found a nice route - 2.86 miles.  Did this in 26.34 with an average HR of 142 and training zone compliance of 24.18 to dubious Kcal of 427.

It was a better run than my first.  There were some cheeky little gradient changes to mix it up and a nice long flat straight near the end.  I did some tender Fartlek along this - really easy stuff just to mix it up and to feel out my legs.

I enjoyed it so much it scares me a bit - especially since I forgot to wear my Ipod !!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 30, 2008, 04:15:11 pm
Am enjoying my running here as well. Ran in town lately but should be back by the river side later on today. Must eliminate that huge steak eaten last night... On the plus side the river run has a few sweet spots, including a nice hill, and the weather is deliciously warm!  ;D

My knees are fine too. I am probably lighter than I was in December and running short distances so far, well within my CV and physical limits.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on March 30, 2008, 05:42:29 pm
Sod it, I'm going to go out again now !!
I've put 50 in my legs this morning so it will be interesting to see what happens now.  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 31, 2008, 02:22:47 am
Run 50 min., about 6 Mi, at 14:00 local time. It was HOT!

So I walked to town a minute ago and treated myself to an icecream.  :P
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on March 31, 2008, 05:58:20 am
I did my route from Saturday but a minute down the road and along comes a cop car.  I had to stop and chat and take the abuse for trying to look fit  :D 
When I got started again I tried lengthening my stride.  It worked.  I was 'running' for the first time really.
Later last night I felt that sections of my quads have been awakened again after no use in ages.
It is a very satisfying feeling.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on April 01, 2008, 05:20:12 pm
A difficult but solid 30 min. run this morning including 4 flights of stairs (ca. 45 steps each) and attacking a long hill to make it worth it. I exited the darkness of town to make it to the river banks whih was so bright due to a lovely rising sun reflecting on the river surface. It was hot and humid already and it took me a while to stop sweating; even after the shower!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on April 03, 2008, 04:37:59 am
Much better today. 35 min. of a nicely paced run, part of it on soft grass follwoing last night rain. Nice.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on April 06, 2008, 05:12:29 am
First run this morning.  Mrs G came with me.  It was no problem.  Just a little wake up for the legs.  I may go out again tonight if I get the chance. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on April 08, 2008, 06:54:50 pm
I have had a few good runs, including a lovely run on a fairly flat beach outside Bertioga, Litoral Paulista, Brazil. I have done this run before on previous travels, but I am sure I did it faser than I ever did this week. Getting better. If only I could shed the weight faster... <sigh> And keep the running going in the cold when I return this week.

PS Grub, two runs a day! I only ever did this when I was preparing for hard races and part of the best teams in the region I was in! Don't overdo it.  ;) Athletes who do this, usually have one jog, and one session (harder run, reps, fartlek, track).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on April 14, 2008, 02:03:06 pm
Still running Grub?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on April 16, 2008, 01:06:42 pm
Yep, had a bit of a gap while we went to Sydney and Mrs G refused to take another case just to put my shoes in.  Went out yesterday myself and this morning with her.  This morning was mainly fast walking as she needs to get a base base before she tries to run.  She has booked a place on the Race for Life again.
I will be out again in the morning.
You?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on April 16, 2008, 04:12:59 pm
Yep, had a bit of a gap while we went to Sydney and Mrs G refused to take another case just to put my shoes in. 

You have big feet, haven't you?!  ::-)

Yep, still running, although not for the past 4 days due to a lot of travel and work. Am talking about doing the local 1/2 marathon with a good friend of mine!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on July 03, 2008, 04:40:30 pm
Back on the treadmill for the first time since *checks spreadsheet...eek* January!

20mins at close to 11.8kph (bit too fast but I my usual treadmill is out of order so I had to use the rickety old one which is difficult to set disired speed accurately).

HRav only 162bpm, which is good for me (it's usually 168-173 for 10.5kph runs!).

Goal is to get to 45 minutes at 10.5kph and then do the occasional run home (about 12km). Garmin Forerunner 405 purchase delayed until I get myself up to 45 minutes twice a week.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on July 03, 2008, 04:50:10 pm
Funnily enough I started running again last week to try and accelerate my weight loss.  I haven't done any running at all since 2004, when I managed to complete a couple of 10K, albeit in a pathetic time.

To be honest last Friday's little jog nearly killed me and it was counter productive in that I was walking like John Wayne for three days and couldn't even ride my bike, so my longer weekend ride went down the pan.

I guess I'll have to build it up gradually.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on July 03, 2008, 05:11:48 pm
I had horrendous DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) starting 24 hours after the run and lasting for 3 days after my first run (20 minutes at 10.5kph on a treadmill). Despite doing plenty of stretching before and afterwards.

However I only ever got this after this first run. Subsequent runs have been problem free.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on July 03, 2008, 05:15:32 pm
There is a race on the local campus in August (a 10K) whcih may tempt me... I need to get back to running if I want to take part.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on July 03, 2008, 07:33:41 pm
I need to get back into running too, as I have some riot training in July and that is all running  :(
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: peliroja on July 05, 2008, 03:58:21 pm
I've been jogging with my sister in our local park for the past month or so. Only about 3 miles at a time, in about half an hour, but we're doing it most days I'm in the country and it's definitely getting easier. I don't get muscle ache anymore afterwards, and am able to keep going for longer. We do try to run on grass, though, as shins hurt aftern running on tarmac.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on July 05, 2008, 04:04:07 pm
Son2 is learning to ride his mini bike now that I have taken the bottom bracket and pedals off.  He is learning the art of balancing.  When he has mastered this he can progress to his proper bike.  While he is mastering it I have to run alongside him.  We started this up the lane on Thursday and repeated it on Friday.  Slowly slowly I will get back to running again.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on July 05, 2008, 06:17:17 pm
First run/bike back-to-back session in a while today... half an hour of each.  Puff puff. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on July 08, 2008, 09:57:11 am
After a good gym session yesterday I ran into the lab today. Felt reasonable, managed to keep it going and push to the top of the observatory hill.

Legs are tired now though...

Maybe take the bike for a spin tonight.

..d
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: vince on July 09, 2008, 08:19:11 am
I've not run since Sunday Saturday. Should have gone out yesterday morning, but frankly too idle. I'm currently striding around telling all and sundry that I'm doing a 10m race at the end of August so I guess it's time to send off the application and put the miles in before I look completely stupid.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Polar Bear on July 09, 2008, 08:23:52 am
I've promised myself that I'll do two runs and two swims a week to complement two or three rides and a couple of dancing sessions.   Yet to get out on the run  :(

I harbour desires of a tri so I guess I should get out.   Tomorrow morning, maybe ...

I know how to do it, jsut too lazy.   I used to run marathons before a series of injuries to my left leg including one clean break of the fib just above my ankle really put all that to bed.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 11, 2008, 01:04:19 pm
Back to running and enjoying it. The top was running on country and mountain paths in the Lakes at the WE. I need a more efficient way of training (time pressures) and running may be it, esp. as I am due to travel quite a bit in the next few months and it is easier to fit trainers in a suitcase than a bike!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on September 11, 2008, 08:21:32 pm
I'm working too hard at present.  I still have those lovely shoes I bought that are now not getting any mileage.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 11, 2008, 08:37:54 pm
I'm going to Australia with my main sport sponsors and to Brazil; and Argentina; and possibly elsewhere in the next few months. Hence the running.

Any advise on where to go in Melbourne (and Sydney)?  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on September 11, 2008, 09:18:35 pm
Melbourne !!!  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

Visit the Melbourne Cricket Ground if you like cricket.

They have a lovely Botanical Gardens.  The National Art Museum is good.  If you like the idea of a Museum per se, with a heavy Aussie bias, they have opened a great one in Melbourne and I can probably get you in gratis, even from here !!

The city itself is quite a nice place.  St. Kilda beach has a market on The Promenade every Sunday that is worth it too.

Depends where you are staying thought. 

The Yarra River and South Bank in town is good too.  There is loads mate, absolutely loads of grouse places to go.

The only problem will be the Aussies.  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 11, 2008, 09:19:48 pm
I've pm'ed you.

PS Cricket ain't my thing. But the rest sounds good. I don't know where I'm staying; 'tis taken car of by higher powers!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Julian on November 02, 2008, 11:13:03 pm
Resurrecting this thread as the owner of a pair of running shoes, for the first time in my life.  Also have managed to jog (slowly) more than 1km for the first time ever.  Charlotte has been showing me how to run without looking like I've been plugged into the mains, and it appears to be marginally easier than last time I tried (about 12 years ago).

Any tips for the total novice gratefully appreciated - especially Vicky, how did you sort the shin-pain thing?  Is that just something that happens or is it something I'm doing wrong?  It seemed worse when I was doing fast walking than slow jogging. 

I am at the running stage equivalent of when cycling 3 miles to the shops was a massive undertaking.  This means I can only get better at it.  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: woollypigs on November 02, 2008, 11:21:08 pm
Peli just told me that she is only running on grass or else she gets sore shins.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on November 03, 2008, 08:31:55 am
Soft surfaces are easier on shins - tarmac is the hardest.  Grass and gravel are much better. 

But mostly it's a case of developing certain muscles you don't have yet.  Take it easy - don't macho through it or you risk nasties like compartment syndrome and stress fractures, all of which are as exciting as they sound.  Rest up ouchy shins until they're good before running again, and after a month or two you'll find that they're buffer ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on November 03, 2008, 08:39:15 am
The first thing is to get a proper pair of running shoes fitted at a shop; Asics, New Balance, Nike are the most common probably. Then, start with grass and trails indeed, esp. if you are not in your race trim; they will help minimise the impact. Thirdly take it easy and rememember never to increase your distance or pace significantly as you get started (the rule of thumb is no more than 10% week in, week out; start by running 2-3 times a week maybe). Stretch! Finally run in nice surroundings as they really help make running more interesting at the beginning; once fitter you can start to play, run with others and do a bit of fartlek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fartlek) for example!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Malandro on November 03, 2008, 09:58:16 am
Until recently, running was my main way of staying fit.  Although I've run intermitently most of my adult life, it didn't become a habit until I started on a treadmill at the gym 6 - 7 years ago.  I then gave up the gym membership and the streets of Ealing (and then Edinburgh) were mine!  Managed to run a marathon 3 years ago....and then the injuries started and currently I'm lucky if I can do 4 miles pain free. 

In hindsight, I'd stress to anyone starting running that stretching and perhaps a good gym routine are crucial for staying injury free, especially if, like me, you don't have a body anything like Haile Gebreselassie.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on November 03, 2008, 11:33:29 am
Yep - it's dead easy to injure yourself quite spectacularly running. even when you've got the miles in. 

When you first start running, your (cycling-trained) cardiovascular system is raring to go, but  your legs aren't ready.  So lots of short runs at a steady pace (able to comfortably sustain a conversation is the usual advice) with rest days between.  Don't run with sore legs - on the rest days go for a bike ride.

And stretches before and after, warm up/down
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on November 03, 2008, 11:56:30 am
The ortho consultant at the hospital who checked out my knee when I borked it, had this to say:

Him: Cycling is good - are you considering taking up running at all?
Me: No.
Him: Good - don't.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on November 03, 2008, 12:27:23 pm
Well done Liz for making a start on running.  I agree with the advice given by others but would like to add a couple of things.  Jogging/walking is ok to start with, don't think you have to run all the way. 

Jogging and running are quite harsh on the shins and knees when on tarmac or other hard surfaces.  If the heel strikes the ground first there is greater force through the knee joint.  I used to stride out when running but now tend to take smaller steps and try not to strike heel first all the time.

As you know I did my longest run to date on Saturday and have found myself entering my first road race.

I love to run cross country.  Mud, puddles, obstacles make it so much more fun but also more hazardous.

Make sure you enjoy yourself and before you do anything else make sure those trainers are aiding your running and causing you any harm.

 :-* :-*
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Julian on November 03, 2008, 12:34:11 pm
The trainers are Brooks ones from Wiggle, I walked over a wet floor to find out what my footprint looks like and went with the ones they recommended.  They certainly feel like they're supporting my foot well.  A distinct improvement on running in Woolworths' plimsolls*.  ::-)

I don't think I'm likely to have any problems overexerting myself.  ;) 

I'm trying to take smaller steps and roll, rather than bounce.  I think one of the reasons that I was so crap at running was that I was doing a slow bounce, which takes considerable effort!

I just don't understand the shin thing - it was fine when jogging but long-strides-fast-walking was painful, like I was jarring my shin bones, and I couldn't work out what it was.  If it's just a n00b problem then I will stick to the park until I've built up a bit more.  :)




*Everyone else had Nike GreenFlash, which were (I agree in retrospect) a total waste of money for a girl with growing feet who attended games lessons... infrequently.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on November 03, 2008, 12:47:58 pm
The trainers are Brooks ones from Wiggle, I walked over a wet floor to find out what my footprint looks like and went with the ones they recommended.  They certainly feel like they're supporting my foot well.  A distinct improvement on running in Woolworths' plimsolls*.  ::-)

I don't think I'm likely to have any problems overexerting myself.  ;) 

I'm trying to take smaller steps and roll, rather than bounce.  I think one of the reasons that I was so crap at running was that I was doing a slow bounce, which takes considerable effort!

I just don't understand the shin thing - it was fine when jogging but long-strides-fast-walking was painful, like I was jarring my shin bones, and I couldn't work out what it was.  If it's just a n00b problem then I will stick to the park until I've built up a bit more.  :)




*Everyone else had Nike GreenFlash, which were (I agree in retrospect) a total waste of money for a girl with growing feet who attended games lessons... infrequently.

The long-strides-fast-walking is more likely to be heels first with greater pressure forced up through the shin bones. 

I think you are a star for being so motivated and lucky to have a gorgeous coach by your side.  Out of interest - is this coach carrying a bucket and sponge?

Don't forget those all important stretches before and after, if you don't have enough time to stretch then cut back on your run, they are just as important if not more so than the run itself.

The coach is expected to give post run massages to all affected areas with warm oil :-*
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Julian on November 03, 2008, 12:49:33 pm
The long-strides-fast-walking is more likely to be heels first with greater pressure forced up through the shin bones. 

I think you are a star for being so motivated and lucky to have a gorgeous coach by your side.  Out of interest - is this coach carrying a bucket and sponge?

Don't forget those all important stretches before and after, if you don't have enough time to stretch then cut back on your run, they are just as important if not more so than the run itself.

The coach is expected to give post run massages to all affected areas with warm oil :-*

Lots and lots of stretching.  I can feel that I've been running at the weekend but I'm not hurting, so the stretching must have worked.

I think the gorgeous coach is definitely a motivating feature.  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: agagisgroovy on November 03, 2008, 01:48:04 pm
I'm starting running as part of my DofE so I can (hopefully) do a triathlon in the Spring.  :)
I can run about half a mile without having to stop already. I think my problem is that my legs are really uncoordinated while I'm running, and I'm trying to work out how you run properly.  ???
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Malandro on November 04, 2008, 12:32:57 pm
Ran 4 miles or so this morning before cycling to work.  Still dark and nice and cold!  Pity my back has now started to seize up while sitting at my desk.  Must persevere.  Stretching, core stability, more stretching.....
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on November 17, 2008, 08:59:00 am
Time to start dusting my trainers... I'm off to South America soon again for a while and won't have the luxury of a bike. With the warm weather it should be easy to get out though.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2009, 02:35:49 pm
Back on the treadmill for me after months of not running.

Starting back on 2 x 20 minute runs a week at a gentle 10.5kph and slowly building up time/distance.

By my reckoning I should be up to 3 x 1hr runs a week by Mid May at which point I'll start running the 11km into work every so often. Something like:-

M: cycle in, run home
T: cycle in, cycle home
W: cycle in, 1 hr treadmill run at work, cycle home
T: cycle in, cycle home
F: run in, cycle home

(I know I'll need two bikes to do this, I'll take the geared bike in on Monday and bring it back on Friday).

25 minutes to treadmill o'clock. Ugh.

[EDIT] Meant to do 20 minutes at 10.5kph but I only managed just over 14 minutes. My excuse is that my HRM showed my average HR for those 14 minutes to be 181bpm which, for a gentle 10.5kph, is a good reason to stop and rest for a few days. We'll see what happens on Friday.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on January 07, 2009, 06:23:29 pm
I think you were right to stop when you did Greenbank.

I have had 10 days off from running, today was a gentle 5k as I knew I would be riding later in the day.

I am finding it hard to balance my cycling and running.  I run 3-4 times a week, usually 6-8 miles during the week and a longer run of say 11 miles on a weekend.  Today was back on the treadmill as the conditions on the roads and paths was treacherous, I found it so boring but it was a means to an end.

Good luck
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on January 07, 2009, 06:41:45 pm
*Everyone else had Nike GreenFlash, which were (I agree in retrospect) a total waste of money for a girl with growing feet who attended games lessons... infrequently.

I'm not usually one to be pedantic (......) but in this case I'll make an exception.

The plimsoles from before time began to which you refer are

DUNLOP GREEN FLASH

<Al Murray>
Good Honest British Plimsoles from an age when PE meant an hour of calesthenics in the gym.
</Al Murray>
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2009, 07:51:17 pm
I think you were right to stop when you did Greenbank.

I stopped because my HR had read 197bpm for over a minute :)

(This is fine, I'm naturally a fast-beater and my GP is unconcerned about this. I can happily average 165bpm for an entire 11 hour 200km Audax and I'll feel as fresh as a daisy at the finish. I often see 200bpm+ when playing 5-a-side football. But, see below.)

This temporary spike is probably due the end of a recent lurgy or the salt on the roads. The latter always makes me a bit wheezy when I'm out on the bike (my asthma cleared up when I was 16 so I can't blame it on that).

Remembering something I heard of Radio 5 before I went away I've just booked a ECG scan with the Cardiac Risk in the Young charity (CRY). Details here: Upcoming CRY Cardiac Screening (http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/ecg.htm) (Only 18-35 year olds though!)

It's a kind of mobile service so I'm having to wait until 21st Feb until it's next in London. £35 but hopefully worth it for a thorough scan and checkup.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 07, 2009, 08:01:20 pm
Unless I am missing something, it seems that they are just doing a 12 lead resting ECG. You could get this done at your GP surgery free in a matter of minutes. You GP is likely, as you have noted previously, to be extremely sceptical as to the justification and indeed the value of this (as am I), but it is cheap, quick, and he might be persuaded...

Oh. I have missed something - they do an echo as well, if indicated. I remain sceptical, given what I know of your abilities, but I'm ready, as ever, to be proven wrong.



Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2009, 08:56:10 pm
Not wishing to do my GP any injustice (I've had nothing but good experiences with the practice) but I think CRY's unwritten point is that anyone can administer an ECG test but not everyone has the experience to understand and interpret the results fully.

I'm willing to be proven wrong though.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 07, 2009, 09:52:10 pm
Most of the conduction abnormalities associated with sudden cardiac death are readily identifiable.

I am sure your GP would be more than capable of identifying a problem, or at the very least recognising a variation from the norm and initiating further action or expert interpretation as appropriate.

I'm not suggesting that you don't have appropriate investigations done if you are concerned of course, for instance if that wheeze persists or you feel that your heart rate response to exercise is outside normal range for you. I am merely suggesting that your local GP would do just as good a job.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on January 07, 2009, 10:07:10 pm
Fair enough SP. I know that you know your stuff about this so I do value your opinion.

'Tis booked anyway. I'll report back on what I think about it.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on January 07, 2009, 11:32:31 pm
Fingers crossed it'll give you a reassuring result that will rule out any electrical conduction abnormalities (unlikely unless you have had symptomatic rhythm disturbances, relevant family history etc) and gross cardiomyopathies (again unlikely given your level of fitness, I'd like to think) and thus not a bad use of £35.


In regard to ECGs and cardiomyopathies: while an ECG is a sensitive test, there is a fairly high risk of false positives as some of the ECG changes you see can be similar to those caused due to changes resulting from fitness training, so it's useful to have access to echo to clarify matters somewhat.

It'll be interesting for you to see if there is any structural or functional reason for the high heart rates. If I was in your position I'd be mildly interested, but relatively unconcerned in view of the lack of any worrying symptoms such as shortness of breath out of proportion to effort, fainting / near-faints etc.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on January 14, 2009, 09:13:48 am
Due to various travels I've gone back into my running (every other day) and have been enjoying it. Being good so far I am maintaining some run sessions here as well. Last night was interesting though: I misjudged the light and lighting there would be on a section of my runs and ended us running in pitch dark; thank goodness the trail was light grey and I could just about follow it -- I need a Petzl! I am trying to re-build a solid endurance base first and have started to introduce a few reps when I was overseas to build up speed as well. So far so good. No idea of exact speed but around 12.5 km/h most probably on 40+ min jogs. I could do with loosing a few pounds though!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on January 14, 2009, 10:22:00 am
Back playing 5-a-side.

HR topped out at 200bpm according to the Garmin, must have been taking it easy in that game (my usual HRmax is 205bpm) as we were outplaying them (we won 6-1).

The running is definitely helping with it.

:)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on January 14, 2009, 03:32:43 pm
Managed a whole 8 minutes on the treadmill before I felt like crap again. Oh well. Better than nothing I guess.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on January 14, 2009, 04:23:35 pm
Managed a whole 8 minutes on the treadmill before I felt like crap again. Oh well. Better than nothing I guess.

What do you mean when you say 'crap', tired, heavy, out of breath, what exactly?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on January 14, 2009, 04:34:41 pm
Tired and heavy. I did play 5-a-side last night. HR was only 172. Not worried at all, I just want to get back into the routine of it.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on January 14, 2009, 04:52:39 pm
Tired and heavy. I did play 5-a-side last night. HR was only 172. Not worried at all, I just want to get back into the routine of it.

Perhaps take it a bit easier the morning after playing 5-a-side, give yourself chance to recover until you have built back up to a better level of fitness in terms of your running.  I always rest on a Wednesday morning as I run and do 2 hours of yoga on a Tuesday. 

I am sure it won't take you long to get the fitness back. 

I took two weeks off from running over Christmas to give my body a chance to recover after the chesty cough thingy, when I went out for my 7 mile run yesterday I felt really good although my legs were a tiny bit heavy about mile 6.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on January 15, 2009, 10:05:03 pm
An easy 6-Miler tonight (44 min. of running). I feel easy cardio-vascularly, but my form is very poor and I have to think about it; when I do it helps my pace. Probably the weight (?) and lack of practice -- I feel as if I am slouching forward (?). But a nice run nonetheless
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on January 16, 2009, 05:33:41 pm
Hurrah. 20 minutes at 10.5kph on the treadmill and I felt much better once I'd got into it. Still unable to zone out but getting there.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 06, 2009, 08:50:28 pm
Still running regularly, often at night with my Petzl when I feel I want to run "in nature". Great fun when cold and dry; even better in the snow!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on February 06, 2009, 09:08:42 pm
I haven't done any running (including 5-a-side football) since my knee said no.

Still waiting for knee to be back to 100%.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on February 06, 2009, 09:26:04 pm
I went running last night.  Headtorch and Exposure light.  Still ended up with a car pulling out of a drive and me running into the side of it, I couldn't have been more lit up if I tried.  Just love to run in the dark, cold and wet.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 07, 2009, 04:58:49 pm
I went running last night.  Headtorch and Exposure light.  Still ended up with a car pulling out of a drive and me running into the side of it, I couldn't have been more lit up if I tried.  Just love to run in the dark, cold and wet.

Great isn't it!? I don't like wet, but crispy cold and dark is heaven.

About car pulling out in front of you: It often happens to me in town. People are clearly only looking to their right as they pull out and would happily run over everyone on the pavement.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on February 08, 2009, 08:49:15 pm
I went running last night.  Headtorch and Exposure light.  Still ended up with a car pulling out of a drive and me running into the side of it, I couldn't have been more lit up if I tried.  Just love to run in the dark, cold and wet.

Great isn't it!? I don't like wet, but crispy cold and dark is heaven.

About car pulling out in front of you: It often happens to me in town. People are clearly only looking to their right as they pull out and would happily run over everyone on the pavement.

Hmm don't know what to do about it really.  Stopping at speed is hard on the joints.

She is lucky my Exposure light didn't end up through her window.

I will be out tomorrow night, come rain or shine. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 20, 2009, 06:01:32 pm
Remembering something I heard of Radio 5 before I went away I've just booked a ECG scan with the Cardiac Risk in the Young charity (CRY). Details here: Upcoming CRY Cardiac Screening (http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/ecg.htm) (Only 18-35 year olds though!)

It's a kind of mobile service so I'm having to wait until 21st Feb until it's next in London. £35 but hopefully worth it for a thorough scan and checkup.

Tomorrow!

Will post a followup when I'm done but I'm going straight from test appointment to a big booze fest in Blackpool for the weekend so I doubt I'll be posting anything until Monday.

Interestingly it was also plugged in Cycling Weakly this week.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 22, 2009, 08:32:02 pm
Tomorrow!

Will post a followup when I'm done but I'm going straight from test appointment to a big booze fest in Blackpool for the weekend so I doubt I'll be posting anything until Monday.

All clear. :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on February 23, 2009, 10:38:04 pm
Ran in this morning (3.5 miles). Took about 40 mins. This did include a couple of ascents of Balgay Hill to add the paths to OSM. I had to walk up most of the steps the second time - the rucksack had my laptop and 2 days kit in for travelling.

Felt really good.

Got off the plane in Heathrow terminal 1, gate 80 or therabouts. Checked my watch as I stepped off the plane - bus leaves in 6 mins. Made it to the bus station in 5 only to stand around for 10 mins before the driver bothered to turn up.. But for the first time in a long while felt that I could run at a sustainable pace.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on February 24, 2009, 11:32:00 am
Great news Greenbank and David, well done. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Julian on March 16, 2009, 11:14:42 pm
*thread resuscitation*

I've noticed that I seem to be able to run better the day after a long / hard bike ride.  As a general rule, it's usually the cardiovascular system that wimps out on me first (I run out of puff and my heartrate goes mental).

The day after a long ride, my cardiovascular system seems a lot more calm.  Okay, my legs are screaming for mercy, but I can cope with that.  This evening I managed to actually *hold a conversation* while jogging, which I've never managed before. 

Is there a reason for this or is it totally psychosomatic? 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: geraldc on March 16, 2009, 11:20:36 pm
Is it that that you just go into aerobic mode a lot earlier ?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 16, 2009, 11:25:29 pm
I can't think of a reason; but it good that you can jog and chat. That is how it should be.

One a bike my legs will give first (I TT on fixed), whilst running hard, racing or training, it'll be my CV that will fail, every time but a day after a TT race after which my legs can feel rather numb. I am feeling rather poorly after such a hard ride (for me), but I can't compare it to how I have felt in the past running hard (burning lungs, feeling sick).

My problem right now is more one of weight when I run though. I can run okay with my cycling base, but if I could loose the extra flab it'd feel much better and I could probably run better.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: GruB on March 17, 2009, 06:09:38 am
Each time I see this post I feel the shame and guilt of failure.  I have a really nice pair of trainers in my wardrobe but just don't have the time to get out there.
Perhaps with the nicer weather I can go out in the evening, plus the lighter nights may help.  ::-)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on March 17, 2009, 07:02:58 am
*thread resuscitation*

The day after a long ride, my cardiovascular system seems a lot more calm.  Okay, my legs are screaming for mercy, but I can cope with that.  This evening I managed to actually *hold a conversation* while running, which I've never managed before. 

Is there a reason for this or is it totally psychosomatic? 

I have no idea why it happens, but I get that too - for a few days after a big ride, I'm incapable of getting my HR up to normal when I'm back on the bike.  My guess would be the body is refusing to work as hard cos it's knackered and in recovery mode. Either that, or it's instant training benefits that wear off after a couple of days (which would be depressingly quick!)   

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: tonyh on March 17, 2009, 07:57:26 am
for a few days after a big ride, I'm incapable of getting my HR up to normal when I'm back on the bike. 

This applies to me in the later stages of a ride, even a 200 to some extent.

But when resting afterwards (eg during a typically poor night's rather restless sleep), HR remains high (eg 65 rather than 55). As you say Mike, knackered and attempting recovery?

(Suspect my mistake is to be 65 (+2) rather than 55.)

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 17, 2009, 08:35:39 am
Each time I see this post I feel the shame and guilt of failure.  I have a really nice pair of trainers in my wardrobe but just don't have the time to get out there.
Perhaps with the nicer weather I can go out in the evening, plus the lighter nights may help.  ::-)

Grub, I often run with a Petzl in winter when it is dark... It is great!  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on March 17, 2009, 09:07:07 am
Long summer evenings and crisp summer mornings are better.   :thumbsup:

(I wonder if this is why Kenya produces more world-class runners than Newfoundland?)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on March 17, 2009, 09:24:29 am
I called up the consultant who saw me last year regarding my knee.

Me: You know you said I shouldn't take up running?
Him: Yes, cycling is great - running is tough on knees and you have a weak one.
Me: I want to try running - but not tarmac. Our local farmer keeps a grass margin round his fields with permissive access. It's quite soft really.
Him: Hmm... not road running?
Me: Nope
Him: Weell... give it a try, but any pain - stop IMMEDIATELY. And get some proper shoes.
Me: Cool  :thumbsup:

So, I went out this morning. Now - I have never ever been able to run. At school I would bunk off running so I could smoke with my mates in the park  ::-). OK - so I didn't help things - I'm not proud of the yoof I was...

Anyhoo - I can't run because as soon as I make the transition from walking (say 4mph) to jogging (say 5mph), it becomes unsustainable - my heart rate climbs gradually and my breathing gets heavier and heavier until I have to slow to a walk again. It's not like this when I cycle, I can do that all day all night and all the next day.

Do I just need to practice?

FWIW I hardly ever walk or run. I work at home, and if I'm going somewhere I cycle or drive. That's probably the answer there...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on March 17, 2009, 09:59:44 am
practice.  I started with 1 minute run / 1 minute walk and worked up from there. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on March 17, 2009, 10:02:44 am
I called up the consultant who saw me last year regarding my knee.

Me: You know you said I shouldn't take up running?
Him: Yes, cycling is great - running is tough on knees and you have a weak one.
Me: I want to try running - but not tarmac. Our local farmer keeps a grass margin round his fields with permissive access. It's quite soft really.
Him: Hmm... not road running?
Me: Nope
Him: Weell... give it a try, but any pain - stop IMMEDIATELY. And get some proper shoes.
Me: Cool  :thumbsup:

So, I went out this morning. Now - I have never ever been able to run. At school I would bunk off running so I could smoke with my mates in the park  ::-). OK - so I didn't help things - I'm not proud of the yoof I was...

Anyhoo - I can't run because as soon as I make the transition from walking (say 4mph) to jogging (say 5mph), it becomes unsustainable - my heart rate climbs gradually and my breathing gets heavier and heavier until I have to slow to a walk again. It's not like this when I cycle, I can do that all day all night and all the next day.

Do I just need to practice?

FWIW I hardly ever walk or run. I work at home, and if I'm going somewhere I cycle or drive. That's probably the answer there...

Hmmmm ::-)

Sometimes even running off road can cause problems, especially with uneven cambers.

I can run and then run some more, no problems with lungs etc until I sprint for the finish line and then almost vomit.

I am doing lots of thinking about my future and cycling and I think that running may feature more than it used to do.  I hope to carry on cycling but am realistic that I may never be able to overcome certain issues.

I agree with Andy.  Early morning and evening runs are the best time.  I use a headtorch and my Exposure joystick, it is invigorating and I really do feel I have pushed myself.

Chris, I really think you need to be a little bit kinder to yourself.  Lots of run/walk.  Even just running for 30 seconds and walking for a minute or until you are able to hold a conversation, probably with yourself until you get the help of a running partner.   Little and often is most certainly the answer. 

If I do a session on the treadmill (which isn't very often anymore) I tend to walk at around 6.6kph and then jog at around 10.5 - 11kph, any faster I consider to be a run.  When I started out though I was probably running at around 9kph.

Listen to your body, don't do anything silly and with time you will reap the rewards.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Julian on March 17, 2009, 10:37:17 am
Anyhoo - I can't run because as soon as I make the transition from walking (say 4mph) to jogging (say 5mph), it becomes unsustainable - my heart rate climbs gradually and my breathing gets heavier and heavier until I have to slow to a walk again. It's not like this when I cycle, I can do that all day all night and all the next day.

Do I just need to practice?

Same here.  I got a HRM for Christmas and by the time I've managed a mile at a trundling 5mph, I'm up at 85-90% HR and breathing, as they say, like a peedo in a playground.  It is frustrating that I can cycle for 40 hours straight(ish) but when it comes to running, I'd struggle to keep up with the egg-and-spoon race.

It does just seem to be practice and more practice and breathing reaaaaalllly slowly through my nose.  It's not like riding a bike where if you're off the bike for a month you can hop back on and only struggle slightly, either - between October and Christmas I managed to work up to 5km, then I was poorly-sick over Christmas and didn't go out for ages, and I was right back at square one.  Well, maybe square one-and-a-half.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 17, 2009, 04:08:11 pm
With running, stop one week and you're going backward, unlike cycling indeed. if you only do it very occasionally are are big-boned chances are you will hurt yourself, esp. if you try hard, which begs the question: Why do it? If you really want to, you must take it easy, and "shuffle" at the beginning at least.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on March 17, 2009, 04:19:06 pm
With running, stop one week and you're going backward, unlike cycling indeed. if you only do it very occasionally are are big-boned chances are you will hurt yourself, esp. if you try hard, which begs the question: Why do it? If you really want to, you must take it easy, and "shuffle" at the beginning at least.

Good points. I'm looking for a convenient cross-training activity that I enjoy, so I'm trying several things including rowing, running and swimming. Running is the one I'm finding the hardest because, as you say, I'm a larger frame so less suited to it.

Time will tell which works best. Problem with swimming is, the nearest pool is 20 miles away and I don't always have time, whereas I can nip out for a quick 20 minute run easily enough.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on March 17, 2009, 04:22:18 pm
Rowing is probably safer for your knees.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 17, 2009, 05:08:26 pm
Chris,

I hope you didn't mind what I wrote. I have met you so I can anticipate some of the issues. I am not a small runner either (now), but I have been running for years, still do it regularly amd have kept a good jogging base. One key thing if you want to run is to try and run on soft surfaces and get some *good* shoes (New Balance should cater well for you). If you only do it once in a while you may think that it is expensive, but only this and some training discipline will avoid any injury. I love running. I like running in nice weather (on a beach in Brazil! ;o) but I also enjoy running on dry and cold days (running on a clear sky, cold evening is great). One thing that makes a difference to me is also where I run. Nice locations matter, be they parks, beaches or even towns. At night I also enjoy running with music on.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on March 17, 2009, 05:27:30 pm
Of course I don't mind - I hold your opinion in high regard because you know a lot more about running than me.

I'm mindful of the fact that I don't have any history of running, so the potential for injury is high. Luckily, it's currently self-limiting as I can only run for about two or three minutes before having to revert to walking so I can swallow a lung.

As I say, it's currently one of three options I'm looking at. Rowing is a real contender because Mrs S is also interested in giving it a go which makes the expense of a rowing machine more justifiable.

However - it sounds like what you are saying is this: Am I sure I can commit to running, because without commitment, it's hard to progress and the risk of injury remains high, is that right? The answer is I don't know. Having never run much before, I can't tell. However, my knee may well be the deciding factor because I don't want to do anything that compromises that.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on March 17, 2009, 05:43:29 pm
Chris, might I suggest that you walk before you hit the 3-4 minute mark.  Warm up first with a brisk walk, stretch, then begin.

If you know you are really going to suffer at the 3 - 4 minute mark then why not run for 2 minutes, walk, recover and then run for another 2 minutes.

This is just a suggestion of course and you can ignore it but I wouldn't get to the stage when you feel you are going to cough up a lung, not unless you are sprinting for the finish line.

If you can dedicate 20 minutes then try this:

5 minute warm up and stretch
Run 2 minutes, walk 1 minute x 3 times
Cool down for 5 minutes and stretch

You will find that each time you go out it will get easier and you can increase the time you are jogging/running.

Another tip is to avoid doing the same route every time, especially if it is on a camber, alternate the route if at all possible.

With time it will become easier, you will reap the rewards and you will want to do more. 

Do not be tempted to rush this nor go too far or too fast too soon.

Good luck and see you on a half marathon very soon :demon:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on March 17, 2009, 05:50:25 pm
Thanks Annie - this is good stuff  :thumbsup:.

It's a strange thing how specific "fitness" is. When I mention how much I cycle, people say "Gosh, you must be fit!" but the ugly truth is, I'm only fit for cycling. When it comes to something else (running in my case) I'm a bumbling, gasping mess.

And that, I guess, is the essence of Cross Training.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on March 17, 2009, 05:54:32 pm
When I want to do the Science Park Fun Run (1.1 miles) my first training run is around 8 minutes but the race time is around 7 minutes.  That's from 2 weeks training.  After the first run my legs are sore for a few days but after the race, they're fine.  It's just adaptation.  I probably adapt a bit faster because I have a history of playing 5-a-side football.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on March 17, 2009, 05:57:02 pm
Thanks Annie - this is good stuff  :thumbsup:.

It's a strange thing how specific "fitness" is. When I mention how much I cycle, people say "Gosh, you must be fit!" but the ugly truth is, I'm only fit for cycling. When it comes to something else (running in my case) I'm a bumbling, gasping mess.

And that, I guess, is the essence of Cross Training.

The thing is, you have made a start and are motivated, you are half way there already :)

I have a whole host of books and running magazines if you want me to send you some, just say the word.

I do a lot of running off-road and use different shoes for this, trail shoes.  They are lighter and react quite differently to road shoes, given that the ankles are required to work slightly differently.

I know I will never be brilliant at cycling but I am at least ok at running.  I am now about to sit down and work out a structured training plan so that I do it right.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 17, 2009, 06:09:51 pm
Annie you are a very light runner. Chris probably needs well cushioned or stability shoes, hence my suggestion for some NB (or Saucony if they still do say the Jazz). Good, purposeful shoes will help with injury limitation.

With Annie's routine, Chris, what you can also try and do as you get fitter is to reduce some of the walking times. Getting a goal when one starts is also good.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on March 17, 2009, 06:14:12 pm
Annie you are a very light runner. Chris probably needs well cushioned or stability shoes, hence my suggestion for some NB (or Saucony if they still do say the Jazz). Good, purposeful shoes will help with injury limitation.

With Annie's routine, Chris, what you can also try and do as you get fitter is to reduce some of the walking times. Getting a goal when one starts is also good.

Yes, good point Frenchie.

Also about reducing the walking times, I reckon within a few weeks that Chris would be able to do this quite easily if he keeps at it.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 18, 2009, 09:37:46 pm
Night running apparatus, Feb. 2009
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p278/ZeFrenchie/Cycling/Gab_Feb09_007.jpg)
Perfect for running in the woods, along the river path... on a crisp winter evening.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on March 18, 2009, 09:56:57 pm
5 miles this morning.  Fresh and bright.  I think I went a little too fast though as I was on my own and not always very good at pacing myself. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 18, 2009, 10:44:07 pm
<please excuse if this sounds abrubt and rude, I'm trying to be helpful  :-[>

There's a couple of potential dangers for Chris I think ;-

You just get better at plodding, so you can run at 5mph for 30 mins, but don't get above that, and you are not utilising all your running muscles (hammies, glutes, calves, quads) and just relying on eg your hammies to pull you along so you get overdeveloped in that area.

So a suggestion - try varying it a bit more, walk a bit, do some jumping jacks, run a bit, hop on each leg, couple of squat jumps, bit of skipping, bit more walking, bit more jogging.

Then when the running bits get longer do some bounding up hills - just extending steps up a gentle hill to get the glutes firing.

Down side is that you'll feel a bit of a prat  ;D, but I think your running will pick up quickly.



Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on March 18, 2009, 10:54:03 pm
<please excuse if this sounds abrubt and rude, I'm trying to be helpful  :-[>

There's a couple of potential dangers for Chris I think ;-

You just get better at plodding, so you can run at 5mph for 30 mins, but don't get above that, and you are not utilising all your running muscles (hammies, glutes, calves, quads) and just relying on eg your hammies to pull you along so you get overdeveloped in that area.

So a suggestion - try varying it a bit more, walk a bit, do some jumping jacks, run a bit, hop on each leg, couple of squat jumps, bit of skipping, bit more walking, bit more jogging.

Then when the running bits get longer do some bounding up hills - just extending steps up a gentle hill to get the glutes firing.

Down side is that you'll feel a bit of a prat  ;D, but I think your running will pick up quickly.





Apologies but I think this is likely to cause Chris huge problems.

Chris needs to build up a good base before he attempts intervals, sprints etc.  Hopping on one leg only works if your knees are 100% and are probably better off being done in the gym or at least on even and soft ground.

Running up hill with a long stride is also something that should be left for quite some time.  The most effective way to get up a hill whilst reducing the risk of injury is to use very short strides.

I can see where you are coming from but Chris just needs to learn to run first.  There is plenty of time to add in intervals/sprints/fartleks if he so wishes.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 18, 2009, 11:03:54 pm
when you say "Chris needs to learn to run first", that's my point - he's not learning to run, he's learning to plod, what you call building a base will likely give him some bad habits that he will find difficult to break later.

And I'm not suggesting intervals, I'm suggesting a couple of hops, a couple of jumps, three or four bounds, to get all his muscle groups firing (and to have a bit more fun  ;D)


Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on March 18, 2009, 11:21:55 pm
Chris probably should make sure his glutes are strong too - this is one of the things I've been told to work on by my physio.

Quote
Weak glutes also cause the hamstring and quadriceps muscles to overcompensate, which can lead to strains, says Jim Thornton, MS, ATC, PES, head athletic trainer at Clarion University in Clarion, Pa. And without a strong, working medius to align the femur, knee and ankle, you’re also more likely to overpronate your feet, which can cause plantar fasciitis (heel pain), Achilles’ tendinitis and shin splints. Inhibited gluteal muscles also lead to tight iliotibial bands, also known as ITB syndrome, and patello-femoral pain, or runner’s knee.

I haz the highlighted problems.  I'm working on the glutes every day as part of my knee rehab.  Glutes seem to be quite important.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 18, 2009, 11:22:29 pm
Long summer evenings and crisp summer mornings are better.   :thumbsup:

(I wonder if this is why Kenya produces more world-class runners than Newfoundland?)

It could be that.
Or maybe that Kenya is at high altitude, so that Kenyans can have permanent altitude training.

Where do you runners keep your front door keys when you run? Do running vests or shorts have a pocket for them?
Or do you always have someone waiting for you at home, to let you back in again?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: annie on March 19, 2009, 06:31:37 am
It would be nice to train the dogs to pass me the keys through the letter box, as this is never going to happen I have to settle for hiding them in a secret Pixie Place.

I do have a pocket in the back of my tri-suit but don't like the feeling of a key against my back or bottom.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 19, 2009, 08:52:05 am
Long summer evenings and crisp summer mornings are better.   :thumbsup:

(I wonder if this is why Kenya produces more world-class runners than Newfoundland?)

It could be that.
Or maybe that Kenya is at high altitude, so that Kenyans can have permanent altitude training.

Indeed. Some of the best runners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paavo_Nurmi) in history have been Finnish BTW.

PS I keep my keys at the back of my jacket in winter or in my shorts pocket in the summer.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Blah on March 19, 2009, 09:43:17 am
Where do you runners keep your front door keys when you run? Do running vests or shorts have a pocket for them?

Running specific shorts usually have a little pocket that sits just under the elastic band at the front (usually at 2o'clock if that makes sense), with space for one key.

I either do that, or just carry them in my hand when I'm running.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 19, 2009, 09:57:47 am
If you want some fun then go down to one of the car parks at Richmond Park (or anywhere else people drive down to to go running) and watch the runners about to set off (or come back) from their run. Lots of them leave their car keys on top of one of the front wheels, or in one of those magnetic boxes that stick to the inside of the wheel arch. It's so obvious what they're doing when they're fiddling around by the wheel.

Just sitting on a bench opposite the car park watching them do this makes them very nervous. :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 19, 2009, 11:12:06 am
I am surprised nobody has played tricks on these drivers!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Blah on March 19, 2009, 01:15:58 pm
If you want some fun then go down to one of the car parks at Richmond Park (or anywhere else people drive down to to go running) and watch the runners about to set off (or come back) from their run. Lots of them leave their car keys on top of one of the front wheels, or in one of those magnetic boxes that stick to the inside of the wheel arch. It's so obvious what they're doing when they're fiddling around by the wheel.

It's the same on any surfing/windsurfing/kitesurfing beach
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on March 19, 2009, 01:34:25 pm

Where do you runners keep your front door keys when you run? Do running vests or shorts have a pocket for them?


In m hand, usually

Or if I'm going via the paper shop (as I often do) I'll wear a small rucksack with a key pocket
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on March 19, 2009, 02:03:42 pm
The thought of dropping a key or having it bounce out of a pocket brings me out in hives. I thread the key twice onto a shoe lace before tieing them. Absolutely secure.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on April 05, 2009, 10:35:22 pm
Went to Sherwood forest last week and did the MTB XC course which is great, great fun for a run too (through the forest, on narrow trails); as it was during the week I didn't see more than two riders (and they were of the slow type too). Run it with a fit friend as well to make the experience even more fun!  :thumbsup:

If only I could loose more weight though, to run these faster! <sigh>
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on April 15, 2009, 12:00:10 pm
Just got some lovely Salomon running kit (they do some lovely stuff) to treat myself and keep me going!  :P

A trip to the Peak Districk is planned this WE I think!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Julian on April 19, 2009, 10:52:46 pm
I found out how to do intervals yesterday!  :thumbsup:

The novelty value may wear off quite soon though, cos it hurts. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on April 19, 2009, 10:59:46 pm
I found out how to do intervals yesterday!  :thumbsup:

The novelty value may wear off quite soon though, cos it hurts. 

It will make the actual event hurt less though.  Interval training lets you achieve more in less time.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jacomus on April 22, 2009, 11:29:51 pm
I've discovered that it isn't running that makes my knees weak - its cycling. During my 3 month lay-off the bike I started running.

No knee pain what so ever... get back on the bike and I can't run again :(
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on April 23, 2009, 10:18:04 pm
I found out how to do intervals yesterday!  :thumbsup:

The novelty value may wear off quite soon though, cos it hurts. 

It will make the actual event hurt less though. 

More accurately you will  likely hurt more during the event, but it will last less long. Depending how you calculate these things that may equate to less overall hurt  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on April 24, 2009, 11:42:30 am
I found out how to do intervals yesterday!  :thumbsup:

The novelty value may wear off quite soon though, cos it hurts. 

It will make the actual event hurt less though. 

More accurately you will  likely hurt more during the event, but it will last less long. Depending how you calculate these things that may equate to less overall hurt  ;D

It will make you able to displace the pain barrier is the exact point I would say; i.e. run hard at a faster pace and for longer.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Blah on April 24, 2009, 02:41:06 pm
Intervals make you learn to love pain. It lets you know where the hurtbox is and how to stay in it for longer.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on May 27, 2009, 11:32:05 am
Entered my first road race in a while for later in June... I will have little hard training as my hipe has lefted me grounded for a while but I'm getting back into it and it is only 5 miles...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on June 03, 2009, 11:03:24 am
Did two woodland trail runs in the woods near Ruford over the week end. The bit if woodlands I run in is located on an incline and, although the area is small, it offered enough trails (grass, dirt, woodedd) and short climbs to entertain myself for up to 50 min. runs. With the heat it was a perfect way to end the days this WE. I wish I had such settings near where I live!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on June 11, 2009, 08:34:04 am
Entered my first road race in a while for later in June... I will have little hard training as my hipe has lefted me grounded for a while but I'm getting back into it and it is only 5 miles...

Well, well, nothing spectacular but a healthy 35 min. (exact race time to be confirmed). The first 3 miles were a doddle; the 4th was pretty bad, mainly because I got my split time wrong and as I was starting to struggle a bit I was also worried I was slowing down way too much. It is quite a bit slower than I would have done the last time I raced over 8 yeras ago, but seeing as I am also 2 stones heavier and have become an occasional jogger rather than a regular runner I'm pleased! Cycling endurance does transfer into some running fitness in my case.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on June 22, 2009, 08:44:48 am
A nice 4.5 Mi at the end of the day on Saturday. I was quite tired after a long week and a long day with baby G that day but forced myself out and it did me good. Stretched well on returning home and was fresh the next moning for a sporting bike ride.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on August 18, 2009, 09:18:13 pm
Took advantage of being away for work to run. Did a 1h, 1h20, 1h30 and 1h40 run on nice forestry trails in Pacific Park, B.C., Canada and did the Grouse Mountain Grind  (http://www.grousemountain.com/Summer/summer-activities/vancouver-bc-hiking-trails-trips/grouse-grind.asp) at the WE, followed by a couple of climbs before turning back due to the weather. Lovely!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on August 19, 2009, 12:40:50 pm
I confess to a twinge of jealousy!

I've been "under the physio" since Jan with a problem where the achilles joins the bone, lots of really good exercises which have helped key muscle groups but no real improvement on the sore spot.  Few weeks ago a cortisone injection seemed to have really helped, vry pleasant run on Sat morning in the pouring rain, run 4 mins, walk 1 min for 35 mins, felt good, running smooth but then very sore all afternoon  :(

B#gger!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on August 20, 2009, 07:48:14 pm
I hope you get better soon.

I was out last night for a good 35 min. run last night, still jet lagged, but going well. I hope to go in the Peak District for a hill/mountain run this WE.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on August 23, 2009, 08:18:04 pm
Okay run in the Peak District (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10.msg411646#msg411646); beautiful scenery, some nice running section; but a bit disappointed with part of the trail which was tough to run on (impossible in several parts) and by my navigation which left me frustrated as I missed a nice section! Form was okay, considering the trail and the ride yesterday.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on August 27, 2009, 08:38:34 am
8 Mi after work around Carsington Water. The North-East and North parts of the shore offer a few steep climbs which challenged me as I felt peckish and a bit tired. In the end I wasn't very fast either, ca 9 Min/Mi, but it was nice to do this run for some of the views and the quietness of the place after work. Back at the car park for 19:00. After I changed and left darkness came quite quickly; so did the rain. Now is the last changes for these evening runs. Must leave work earlier in the future!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on August 28, 2009, 03:47:48 pm
I ran 8 miles this morning, very up and down, on paths and roads. Just under 1 hour, which isn't too bad. But it really ***king hurt! I hadn't run since June and have only been cycling (a lot) since... my achilles' tendons are particularly sore.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on August 28, 2009, 11:17:19 pm
That's quite fast FM, 7 min/Mi, for someone who doesn't run regularly... Wow! I manage that but by the sound of it I run a bit more than you do, although irregularly too. You must stretch more and massage you Achille's!

Okay, so tomorrow the plan is to run Axe Edge Moor, a 12.5 Mi trail, weather permitting. I will probably do something like 9min/Mi +! But will climb 578 m in two steep ascents (one looks tough).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on August 30, 2009, 10:35:11 pm
A nice run on Axe Edge, along Erwood Reservoir and back up to the Cat & Fiddle pass in the Peak District, West of Buxton, yesterday.

More here (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10.msg415873#msg415873).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on August 31, 2009, 06:33:54 pm
A nice long run and scramble in the Peak District, from Bonsall to Winster, Winsley, Snitterton and back. Over 3 hours plus/with navigation. I am a bit tired now...  :P

On the plus side my new Adidas Kanadia shoes proved very suitable and comfy on their second outing. A bargain at £41 off the interweb!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 06, 2009, 09:18:29 pm
A 30 min brisk run to unwind and trial my new Adidas Supernovas. Verdict: Nice comfortable shoes, straight out of the box. Light, potentially fast trainers too. Got my legs to turn over and my body to work on empty, just before dinner. And I made it home just before it started to rain heavily as well.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on September 07, 2009, 09:08:18 pm
Apparently running is an important part of a triathlon, so I've dusted off my green flash and have been plodding round the local paths.  I'm quite enjoying it, actually and I'm up to a steady hour now, or a brisk 30 minutes (steady = 9, brisk = 7.30 / 8 minute mile pace)

I tweaked a calf muscle on a treadmill on holiday a couple of weeks ago but it seems to have recovered now, I guess I was doing too much too soon.  Lots of stretching required.

The 5k of the mini tri should be OK, then I can build up distances a bit to try a proper tri next year.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on September 07, 2009, 09:09:29 pm
I was running at altitude last week.  8-12,000 feet.  That's quite hard.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on September 07, 2009, 09:10:54 pm
quite daft, frankly.  Was the bar closed?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on September 09, 2009, 04:27:07 pm
I've never tried more than a mile.  I can just about do a 6.30 mile with a couple of weeks training.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on September 11, 2009, 07:19:16 pm
quite daft, frankly.  Was the bar closed?

By 'eck it made a lumpy 6 miler at close to sea level just now damn easy though :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on September 11, 2009, 11:01:46 pm
My (bike and ferry) commute is very short these days and I am using my Brompton. So I am getting up at dawn for a 4 mile run every day. I do a couple of proper rides on the weekend, both for speed rather than distance. My legs are feeling much better now and I am really enjoying the running, and so far I have seen coyote, deer, skunks, owls and hawks as well as all the smaller things. To add to the cross-training, I am also doing some canoeing again, which is fabulous.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 13, 2009, 05:29:16 pm
A longish, slow 70' ride yesterday late afternoon; it was rather warm, but I got better past the 30' mark and the latter part of the run was very pleasant. I also met with a frisky couple of teenage "rabbits" engaged in a rather intimade bit of exercise on a disused lane in the park close to where I live. It made me laugh; I think my arrival caused quite a stir!  ;D

A faster 5 Mi run this morning, followed by a good cool-down and stretching session too. What a change in the weather. My top was soaking wet yesterday and today I had to take a thicker long top in which I barely sweated until I stopped in fact. It was windy too.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 13, 2009, 05:31:27 pm
I am also doing some canoeing again, which is fabulous.

Envy! I haven't managed to do as much as I wanted over here (kayaking); yet, I am sure that in your parts of the world now it is far better. I recommend you check Explore at your news agent -- a nice mag for he who likes the Canadian outdoor, running, cycling, kayaking and canoeing...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on September 14, 2009, 04:51:50 pm
I am also doing some canoeing again, which is fabulous.

Envy! I haven't managed to do as much as I wanted over here (kayaking); yet, I am sure that in your parts of the world now it is far better. I recommend you check Explore at your news agent -- a nice mag for he who likes the Canadian outdoor, running, cycling, kayaking and canoeing...

Thanks, I will check it out. Too much time doing and not much time for reading about it recently, but that will change come winter - although the cross-country skies and snowshoes and skates will have to come out (as well as the icebike...)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 14, 2009, 10:39:46 pm
I have to say that I was very tempted to apply for a job in Vancouver; but my nationality and specialism were not the #1 items on the list, so I didn't. I really like the Canadian attitude to life, the quality of life there and, of course, the whole country!! Do they need fluid mechanics, modelling, gas-liquid or aeroengine experts where you are?!  :P

Enjoy the running, canoeing and cycling!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on September 15, 2009, 09:49:05 pm
Bloody hell, I've just entered an offroad marathon. In November.  Wantage to Avebury along the Ridgeway!  Smoke me a Druid, I'll be back before Solstice.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 15, 2009, 10:02:06 pm
Bloody hell, I've just entered an offroad marathon. In November.  Wantage to Avebury along the Ridgeway!  Smoke me a Druid, I'll be back before Solstice.

Sounds nice. Do you have a link? I am no big fan of marathons (too long, too far, too much LSD training) BUT I like running off road and actually enjoy a long run in nice scenery (3.5 hour for my last fell run).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on September 15, 2009, 10:04:24 pm
Bloody hell, I've just entered an offroad marathon. In November.  Wantage to Avebury along the Ridgeway!  Smoke me a Druid, I'll be back before Solstice.

Blimey

That's going to be a fair old climb up from Wantage, and the West Berks  Ridgeway in November will be gloopy as hell.  I used to live not far, and whilst I'd run it in the summer or when frozen hard...

Sounds great :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 15, 2009, 10:06:41 pm
Bloody hell, I've just entered an offroad marathon. In November.  Wantage to Avebury along the Ridgeway!  Smoke me a Druid, I'll be back before Solstice.

Blimey

That's going to be a fair old climb up from Wantage, and the West Berks  Ridgeway in November will be gloopy as hell.  I used to live not far, and whilst I'd run it in the summer or when frozen hard...

Sounds great :)

Should we enter a team?!  O:-)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on September 15, 2009, 10:20:59 pm
if i was going to run a marathon, that one sounds great!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 15, 2009, 10:22:33 pm
if i was going to run a marathon, that one sounds great!

Andy, we're only waiting for your link to enter a team yACF!  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Julian on September 15, 2009, 10:23:29 pm
I'm still building distance, going from being unable to run for a bus last October to being unable to run more than 5km now.  Still, I can at least run now, although I've not yet managed much below a 10 minute mile.

Which thankfully makes me far too slow to be part of the yACF marathon team. ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: clarion on September 15, 2009, 10:28:07 pm
I am impressed. 

I have a note from my mum excusing me from being in the yacf Marathon Team, on account of my kit's in the wash, and I can't run without creating alarming respiratory noises and collupsing.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on September 15, 2009, 11:33:40 pm
Druid Challenge // The Druid Challenge Ridgeway Multistage Ultra :: XNRG Extreme Energy :: xnrg.co.uk // xnrg.org.uk (http://www.xnrg.co.uk/events_druidchallenge09.htm)

I'm in 10k form, but I know from practice that 10k form means I can pull a half-marathon out of my arse with a little luck and performance-enhancing pies.  So if I get into half-marathon form, clearly, I'm sorted.  Honest.  And it's Wayland and that's my happy place. 

Oh barmcakes, I'd forgotten about Dragon Hill.  :o

Still, tattooed biker totty has already promised to have a pint waiting at the Red Lion.  And I can always break into a walk.  Now, will it stay dry enough for the Fivefingers?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on September 15, 2009, 11:37:16 pm
Where do you climb up to the Ridgeway from ?

Once you're up there it's reasonably level.

I used to run into work the other way at one time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on September 15, 2009, 11:43:58 pm
Haven't a clue.  Will await the race pack nearer the time; the stage starts at Wantage sports centre but that might just be the administrative start. 

Mmm, mandatory gear includes a space blanket.  I feel all boyscouty!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on September 16, 2009, 12:08:46 am
Druid Challenge // The Druid Challenge Ridgeway Multistage Ultra :: XNRG Extreme Energy :: xnrg.co.uk // xnrg.org.uk (http://www.xnrg.co.uk/events_druidchallenge09.htm)


That looks like fun.
Is there really going to be a YACF team?
I might have to google some bus companies to see if I can do it.
Then do a bit of running around to get used to running.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on September 16, 2009, 12:53:31 am
If I thought my knees would take it I would be tempted by a marathon.  It's my left knee.  She cannae take it cap'n.

A couple of weeks' training the last couple of Octobers got me down to 6'30 mile in time for Children Need the last few years.  Given how fit training for and riding LEL's got me I might be faster this year.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 16, 2009, 11:13:12 am
Druid Challenge // The Druid Challenge Ridgeway Multistage Ultra :: XNRG Extreme Energy :: xnrg.co.uk // xnrg.org.uk (http://www.xnrg.co.uk/events_druidchallenge09.htm)
i

Wow it's an ultra marathon!! I thought you said "marathon"!

'Tis something I could be tempted to do though. Must check the time minima. Have ot most of the kit bar a whistle!

More later.

EDIT: Are you doing the 3-day or one leg only? If so, which?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on September 16, 2009, 06:04:32 pm
I'm getting ever more tempted.
If I do it, it'll be the Saturday one.
Logistics of getting to and from the start and finish are the biggest PITA for me. It'd be easier if it started and finished at the same place so that I could cycle there and cycle home afterwards.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on September 16, 2009, 06:07:45 pm
I'm getting ever more tempted.
If I do it, it'll be the Saturday one.
Logistics of getting to and from the start and finish are the biggest PITA for me. It'd be easier if it started and finished at the same place so that I could cycle there and cycle home afterwards.


you're getting soft!   Run with this on your back, then scoot home :)
Bergmönch, the Bicycle that Folds into a Rucksack : TreeHugger (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/01/bergmonch-bike-folds-into-backpack.php)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on September 16, 2009, 06:15:46 pm
Getting soft?
Well, one idea I have is to do the run on Saturday and run back to my bike on Sunday.
Not sure I could do it though. I think the Saturday will probably do me in. I only run ran about 6 miles a week.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on September 16, 2009, 06:34:44 pm
I'm doing just the last day.  One marathon is enough for this little black duck! 

But yes, it's a three-day ultra with each day approximately a marathon along the Ridgeway, with sleepovers at the stops.  Kit is supported between bases.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 17, 2009, 08:44:42 am
I could be tempted with one day too; question of time and training. I haven't run longer than 3.5 hours with a light backpack though, in recent times. I'll mull over it at the WE and talk to the girls at home.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on September 17, 2009, 10:35:55 am
I ain't even done that.  A Half is my biggest, and that was kitless and on-road. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on September 17, 2009, 01:28:23 pm
I ain't even done that.  A Half is my biggest, and that was kitless and on-road. 

Oh well, don't worry too much. You'll run slower off road anyway. I used to target the 80' mark for a half on the road. Off road and in the PD hills I can sometimes spend twice that, for a shorter distance even, due to the profile and my navigation skills maybe!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on September 17, 2009, 04:21:22 pm
Andy, that looks absolutely mental... so I am sure you'll do just fine!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on October 05, 2009, 06:24:21 pm
 :'( :'( :'( :'(

I'm going to have to skip the weights for a few weeks, while I get this marathon in.  The recovery times just add up to more than the clock time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on October 15, 2009, 09:39:28 am
Heads up!  Aldi are doing running kit starting today.  Quality and price on a par with their bike gear (ideal starter / training stuff). 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on October 19, 2009, 09:38:17 pm
Lovely run yesterday, in the autumn sun, to break the many miles I do in the week on the bike AND to fit the little time (1h) I had too!

Don't know about Aldi kit, but running shoes need to be good ones to avoid injury, unless one is a super feather weight! Running with Adidas Supernovas at present: Great shoes!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on October 23, 2009, 11:43:18 am
I'm back to being optimistic again! Did a 10K race last Sunday, Cancer Research thing round trails in the grounds of Scone palace. Really nice course and I clocked 42+ minutes.  Quite pleased considering I'm not running more than twice a week and mostly in pain.

MRI scan on my Achilles this pm, and a road 10k at Jedburgh on Sunday - maybe I've turned a corner?




Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on October 24, 2009, 06:59:01 pm
Well done Rich!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on October 25, 2009, 01:07:13 pm
My own Achille's heel is playing again. It is very stiff at the moment (right foot); I never feel it when I cycle and didn't feel it much when I did my long mountain runs in the summer, but last week and this week [this morning at least] it has been stiff, making some runs slightly uncomfortable. I guess I will not be up to scratch for an ultra race soon.  :( Hope to do a x-country next WE though!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on October 25, 2009, 07:38:33 pm
The splints of the shin of the DEVIL aborted my last long run today; I'm resting for a week.  Cue pre-race angst and fretting...   ::-)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on October 25, 2009, 08:39:51 pm
lovely five mile run this afternoon.  My foot was really sore last week but changing back to normal laces (from stretchy tri time-cheating ones) and getting the shoes a bit tighter round my toes seems to have done the trick.

Lots more this week.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on October 31, 2009, 11:07:59 am
going stir crazy resting these pins ???
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on October 31, 2009, 09:50:43 pm
No pool and no bike so I have been running. Not much, but enjoying it, even on a treadmill.

Start at 7mph and go up 0.1 mph every .25 miles. Gets me some exercise.

..d
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 01, 2009, 12:55:42 am
I started a bit gingerly because I wasn't sure about my knee.  An 8kph jog then ramped it up to about 12.5kph which is a run.  12.5kph is 7.76mph - so starting at 7mph would have felt quite fast.

Fun run is on the 20th.  In the past I've be able to do a 1.1 mile lap in approx 7 minutes, so need to be able to run at almost 9.5mph average by then.  Preferably a little bit faster to try to get a sub 7 minute time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on November 01, 2009, 02:11:07 am
I think it is just my natural rhythm - running slower than about 6.8 is laboured, but it is nice to warm up a bit and then get intense before my brain fries on the treadmill.

Still carrying too much weight to run for long before the legs start to ache some in 'carrying far to much weight' ways rather than run too far ways.

..d
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 03, 2009, 09:38:11 pm
I did 30 mins on the treadmill tonight, ramped speed up to 13kph.  Which, after my 5000m rowing felt pretty brisk.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: geraldc on November 04, 2009, 12:33:21 am
Found something to do when the London Marathon is on TV. I'll be running the Brighton Marathon. Time to start training
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on November 04, 2009, 10:17:11 am
Got results from MRI scan last night - as they suspected problem is scar tissue on achilles where it joins the bone.  Challenge is to break down the scar tissue over time.

Expect to be months and months to complete recovery, becos' this area has a very poor blood supply, but I'm allowed (encouraged even) to run, short and sharp is good.  Lots of stretching and strengthening stuff.  Expect pain but manage around it - which is OK.

So I'm pretty bullish today! 

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on November 09, 2009, 01:46:42 pm
Druid Challenge - Muddy Funsters

Well, I made 20 miles before all the wheels fell off my wagon.

It opened in thick mist (and stoats hunting bunnies) and the first half was decent: everyone was walking the hills and saving their energy, so my strategy wasn't out of place. When the mist lifted it was only to allow proper rain.

Halfway through, around the White Horse, my right knee (o Judas knee) went sproing. After some pissing and moaning, and some experimenting, I was able to carry on to the next checkpoint with a mix of walking and some weird short-step running called the "Ironman shuffle".

After that, things froze up more and I was in walk-or-die mode. The next few miles were weird, a single file of knackered walkers in a stark hilltop-and-mist landscape: it looked like the pogrom scenes from Fiddler On The Roof. I was expecting Cossacks to come riding out of the mist.

...and that was followed by a few miles of wallow through churned mud, and after that - with the finish on the horizon, dammit, my other knee went and I was reduced to shuffling like an old lady who needs a poo. At under 1kph (and occasionally in tears) there was no way I'd reach the end before the end of the day, so I had to call my minions and get helicoptered out.

Gutted that I DNF'd.

Happy that I did my longest run ever, and did an epic bloodyminded carryon. Kit was perfect, etc etc.

This one is not 'unfinished business'

So what went wrong? Let's start with trying to scale from 10k to marathon in ten weeks. That was optimistic. It was based, if I'm honest, on my experience with cycling where you can do that. Of course, on a bike, you don't carry your own weight, and a bike that will do ten miles will do a hundred. On a run, you do. It's more important to do close to race distance. In addition I wasn't at race-weight, so I was carrying more - but that's secondary.

I'd trained offroad up at Woodbury, but not in the weird clingy chalk mud that the Ridgeway has. That stuff was like a rink and at times my shoes clogged and I was reduced to hilarious mincing. The knees didn't like that. Rain, cold - that was fine. But wallowy mud really hit.

What's with the knees? Flexibility! The old short hamstrings mare up when extending the leg, and the grumble spreads until any torsion (like correcting foot position in mud) is quite ouchy.  With repetition, ouchy gets to "unable to bear weight" and it all goes wrong.  Descents were brutal.  That right knee's betrayed me before - time for some proper flexibility work, alas. 

Druid Challenge - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/andygates/sets/72157622642200307/)

After a sleep and a slow walk to the shops (to get ice packs) it's clear that the usual battered feet, toenails, ankles, shins etc are there, just hiding under the Knees of Death.  The left is just sore, the right's taken some soft tissue damage.  Ice, rest and slow increase in activity to get it healthy, then I need to chase down a physio and address the causes.

Huge respect to the Druid ultra guys, who are all weird smiley buddhists.  The toothless one who grinned fangily and told me to "march through it" in the Checkovian hills was cool; the guy who did all three days in Fivefingers was awesome.  The little Asian girl who steamed past me twice (checkpoint pit stop overlap) and the strapping tall lass with thighs like salt beef (it was cold, mumblers were the wrong shorts, Grommit) were also inspiring. ;)

Going to lie down for a bit...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on November 09, 2009, 03:21:49 pm
Great report Andy - sorry it didn't pan out

+1 to the claggy mud though.  Foul stuff indeed.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on November 09, 2009, 04:37:26 pm
Half of me wanted to go home.   The other half wanted to buy MudClaws.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on November 09, 2009, 04:40:46 pm
That  would be a great run in the summer - though the mud sets like, well, clay when it dries out - or when it's freezing.  I used to run that stretch of the Ridgeway a lot when we lived near there.  Rarely in November though.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on November 09, 2009, 06:19:34 pm
I wonder why?  O:-)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 09, 2009, 06:20:47 pm
Reminds me of the claggy mud on the Star Trek orienteering event I did on Exmoor on the 28th Feb this year.  Lovely when you're in a hurry to make the next checkpoint on time :)

In the dark for extra falling over fun.  Not that I did though.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on November 09, 2009, 06:57:52 pm
Ive been thinking about getting some winter running shoes though the nearest I get to cross country is the tamsin path round richmond park. What shoes were you using, Andy? Those mudclaws look fearsome...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on November 09, 2009, 07:01:55 pm
Good try Andy :thumbsup:
Also, running with your feet clogged up in clay is like running with ankle weights. The Ridgeway is notorious among local mountain bikers as a bog pit if there is any rain. That's 14 miles further than I've ever ran, and it was off road over hills too. I reckon I could do the distance fitness wise, but it's a matter of getting the legs used to the running and on even surfaces to boot. 10 weeks isn't much time for that!
Are you going to try for a marathon again?
(but maybe with more preperation time beforehand)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on November 09, 2009, 07:31:02 pm
good work Andy, very impressive. I hope the knees recover fairly quickly!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on November 09, 2009, 07:41:32 pm
What shoes were you using, Andy? Those mudclaws look fearsome...

Helly Hansen Trailcutters: very light slipper-like shoes with nice soft grippy all-way tread, dandy for wet and dry but with no mud-shedding to speak off.  Seems mud-shedding is a special trait for extreme fell-running nutter shoes.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on November 09, 2009, 07:56:36 pm
Epic! Sounds like a good event. Were you trying to do all 3 stages?!?

(It's in my backyard too. Reading the itinererarary I started thinking - hey, I could shuffle 20-odd miles in 10 hours, MAYBE for 3 days. But that would require June-July day lengths ... )

GWS, don't run before you can walk etc ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on November 09, 2009, 09:21:11 pm
Gods no!  I don't have the ethereal, enlightened, Dalai-Lama smile that they do.  I have touched the shorts of greatness, but it's not my gig.

OTOH it did introduce me to long easy countryside runs, and those are a delight, and I'll be keeping that up (to a degree, at least).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 09, 2009, 10:59:39 pm
Running certainly is different.  I can cycle 155 miles in a day (Saturday just gone, par exemple), and not be sore the next day.  Run a single solitary mile and I'm sore for 2 days.  Of course on day 3 I do it again and am not sore the next day.  It does seem to require a lot more building up, though.

I'm currently trying to get up to speed for a 1.1 mile run on the 20th.  So I have been on the treadmill once a week for 30 minutes at the gym.  Tonight I played 5-a-side.  There was a bit of trepidation that my knee was going to really complain.  Far from it - not a single twinge.  The treadmill work has helped.  I also changed my footwear - I'm wearing my running shoes instead of my Sambas.  This means less grip; initially I fell over a lot but it means when I turn, my foot doesn't stick so my knee isn't being twisted as much.  This is good.  Also have orthotics in there to prevent over-pronation, as I'm a little bit flat-footed.

It's all good and has me thinking I should get into running regularly as cross training activity N.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on November 09, 2009, 11:08:11 pm
I googled mudclaw - they seem to have some really nice shoes there.

I'm finding the running and swimming is certainly helping, but I can't do them for much longer than about 30 mins at the moment without getting bored (unless I get outdoors when running).

Must source some good outdoor running shoes rather than sliding around in my trainers.

..d
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 09, 2009, 11:32:10 pm
I didn't get bored at swimming class last week.  I got confused and knackered.   ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on November 10, 2009, 08:46:47 am
I didn't get bored at swimming class last week.  I got confused and knackered.   ;D


I don't get confused... The swimming is coming on slowly. Feels like I might actually hit some technique soon and be able to string together a couple of lengths of proper crawl.

..d
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on November 10, 2009, 09:34:58 am
Also have orthotics in there to prevent over-pronation, as I'm a little bit flat-footed.

Are you flat-footed as in fallen arches? Or as in over-pronated ankle position? If the latter, it can be improved by postural therapy. Probably. Your ankles will work better in the ...err long run. The orthotics may still be sensible when running.   IANAQPhysio etc ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 13, 2009, 02:24:58 pm
Also have orthotics in there to prevent over-pronation, as I'm a little bit flat-footed.

Are you flat-footed as in fallen arches? Or as in over-pronated ankle position? If the latter, it can be improved by postural therapy. Probably. Your ankles will work better in the ...err long run. The orthotics may still be sensible when running.   IANAQPhysio etc ...

A bit of both really. Physio suggested postural changes and orthotics.

Ran 5.5km at lunch time, took 27:30 over it. That includes lace tying at half way.  :facepalm:

Will be able to analyse it properly at home.
 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on November 13, 2009, 09:52:25 pm
I googled mudclaw - they seem to have some really nice shoes there.

If you want an entry level trail shoe look at Adidas Kanadia Trails. They are pretty decent for £40. Very pleased with mine, though buy at least one extra size. On the road I currently use Adidas Supernovas; quite soft compared to my old favourites, Asics 2000 and GT series, but what I need now that I am heavier, older and slower!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on November 14, 2009, 12:11:38 am
Just to add my (belated) congratulations - well done Andy, good effort and great report that gave a good flavour of your trial and tribulations.

I've done a bunch of  long runs over peat, which can get pretty soggy but it doesn't have the death-grip of clay-mud - rather you than me for sure .
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 15, 2009, 03:42:19 pm
3 mile run this afternoon - took me 29 minutes (HR zone 3).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 17, 2009, 10:37:24 pm
Friday's run:

Garmin Connect -
      Activity Details for
            Untitled   (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/18739011)

Sunday:

Garmin Connect -
      Activity Details for
            Untitled   (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/18814689)

Tonight's 5-a-side game (no map, used the foot pod as was indoors):

Garmin Connect -
      Activity Details for
            Untitled   (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/19058926)

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on November 17, 2009, 11:18:19 pm
3 mile run this afternoon - took me 29 minutes (HR zone 3).


This is a jog...  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on November 17, 2009, 11:28:48 pm
3 mile run this afternoon - took me 29 minutes (HR zone 3).


This is a jog...  ;)

Hehe - you runners...  ::-)

I once proudly announced to Fidgetbuzz that I'd "run" on the treadmill at the gym at 6mph; to which he snorted - "Pfft... that's not running...!"

Yeah yeah... and riding a bike 200km is not "long distance cycling" - we all get the pissing contest idea;  ;D.

Personally - I would fall apart at the seams if I tried to run three miles. Good work Bridget.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 17, 2009, 11:38:25 pm
3 mile run this afternoon - took me 29 minutes (HR zone 3).


This is a jog...  ;)

Yeah I know.  I actually found it very hard going that slow.  I chose the HR zone and had to keep slowing down because naturally I like to go a bit faster.  I didn't find it a problem on the treadmill but on the road it feels very slow.

On Friday the plan was jog 1 lap, run 1 lap, jog 1 lap.  It was a fast jog/slow run for most of the first lap and slow run/run for the second lap, and fast jog, speeding up to slow run for the final lap.

My pace for the event itself is usually about 15kph (1.1 miles in about 7 minutes).


Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 17, 2009, 11:50:01 pm
3 mile run this afternoon - took me 29 minutes (HR zone 3).


This is a jog...  ;)

Hehe - you runners...  ::-)

I once proudly announced to Fidgetbuzz that I'd "run" on the treadmill at the gym at 6mph; to which he snorted - "Pfft... that's not running...!"

Yeah yeah... and riding a bike 200km is not "long distance cycling" - we all get the pissing contest idea;  ;D.

Personally - I would fall apart at the seams if I tried to run three miles. Good work Bridget.

Did I not mention how sore I was on Saturday?  ::-)

I set the alarm for 6.45am on Sunday.  I woke up, thought "too sore for a 200" and went back to sleep.  After more sleep and a bit of hobbling when I got up (stiff ankle) I decided to do a slow run to keep it ticking over.  I did feel better for it.

I always feel sore when I put my running shoes on in early November and train for the fun run.  Muscles are simply not used to the impact and they need to adapt.  It's the same every year (I've done it 4 times now, this will be my 5th go).  I am very sore after the first run, after the second I am much better, and by the day of the event my time for a lap has gone from 8:40 to 7:01.  This year I was doing 30 minutes on the treadmill in the couple of weeks before - it didn't make the slightest bit of difference.  It's much too forgiving and doesn't prepare you for running on the road.

Last year I was 86th fastest male runner out of 321, and in 2007 56th out of 267.


Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on November 18, 2009, 12:03:26 am
3 mile run this afternoon - took me 29 minutes (HR zone 3).


This is a jog...  ;)

Hehe - you runners...  ::-)

I know, I know...

For the record I don't consider myself a runner anymore (though I can still maintain a 7 min/Mi for medium distance runs (say 10k), and maybe a tad faster if I get into "racing" mode whatever this means now!, and managed a 3hr30 mountain sortie this summer; a pity I am about two stones heavier than when I felt like a runner...).

I always found treadmill or track/lap running (except for specific training sessions, like reps) very tedious. Just get out there. For me running in a scenic environment helps a lot fight the boredom.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on November 18, 2009, 08:27:17 am
First time for a while that I have run in over the Law. This is a 3-400m warm up gently downhill, then 800m of unrelenting steps and uphill to the top. The last part being irregular wood/earth steps in zig zags. Ouch!
However, I got into work in a much quicker time than anticipated so might have to try to find a longer flatter bit to finish it off with in the mornings and take it nearer the 45min mark. Maybe do both hills?

Now time for a shower and coffee.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 20, 2009, 07:50:19 pm
Well, the race was today.  I targeted a sub 7 minute time, and set the GPS for a 3:57/km pace and thought if I beat that then I would be right.  Unfortunately the course is slightly longer so I think I did 7:08 (last I checked the official results weren't up) which matches last year.

As last year was a first leg (no baton handover to take into account and slightly shorter in theory) and I matched that time, that's OK though.

Garmin Connect -
      Activity Details for
            Untitled   (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/19266593)

I felt better physically on the run than in the past (in terms of being out of breath and tired during the middle to latter part of the run) so maybe could have gone a shade faster.  I found the final sprint quite easy.

OTOH by the finish my HR had climbed to 189 bpm so I was clearly pushing myself hard.

When I came in to the handover the announcer said we were top 10 so we may have a top 10 finish.  I took one place on my lap but the final runner lost one* so it depends how far inside the top 10 we were.

* He got passed twice but retook one of them.  He jogged round in fancy dress in parallel with the 1st lap of our team.  That probably took a bit out of him.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 20, 2009, 08:03:21 pm
The results are in: I managed a time of 7:06; slowest in our team, but faster than anyone in our other teams, so my position is safe for now.  :thumbsup:

We came 9th overall.  Woo hoo!  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on November 22, 2009, 01:00:19 pm
Nice night 50' run across fields, along the river and then through the local woodland; I had to run more slowly because of the water everywhere which the Petzl thankfully helped see! Enjoyed it much; saw nobody!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 22, 2009, 02:46:15 pm
After my rowing stint today I did some intervals on the treadmill.  3 minutes on 3 off, 14kph fast (except for the second which was 14.5) and 8kph slow pace.  I did four of them.  449 kcals burned.  Hard work.

Garmin Connect -
      Activity Details for
            Interval training on the treadmill   (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/19400985)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on November 29, 2009, 04:34:20 pm
55' run in glorious sunshine this morning. Probably 7.5 Mi. Some of the trails were very, very wet! Good warm down it seems as my Achille's heel is not complaining so far.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on November 30, 2009, 10:24:55 pm
Nice one, Frenchie, good for you.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on December 01, 2009, 10:47:24 pm
Nice one, Frenchie, good for you.


How are you getting on?

My shoes are now dry but terribly muddy; somehow, it makes me happy and wanting to go out in the woods or the hills.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on December 07, 2009, 02:29:12 pm
Thanks for asking.

I'm cautiously optimistic - I know what my problem is (inflamed achilles tendon), I know it will get better but very slowly, I can expect it to hurt like f@#k occasionally  but I can run up to an hour OK.

So running 2-3 times a week, feeling stronger week by week, enjoying splashing through puddles, not enjoying descents made precarious by mud! 

Actually I'm underplaying this - I'm joyous at being able to strap on a pair of shoes and just go run, it's so liberating  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on December 18, 2009, 05:23:21 pm
Run in the snow at lunchtime - brilliant!  Is there a better simple pleasure than running in 5 cms of untracked new snow on a bright clear day?

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on December 20, 2009, 11:39:42 pm
I run in the bitter cold during the week when I was in Germany on business. With the end to a busy few months, long hours and delayed planes meaning I made it home at 1:15am, I only managed a 45' run this WE, late today. Running in some snow, in the dark, with some nice music is one of the best treats ever! Loved it!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on December 29, 2009, 08:02:49 pm
Guess what?  I CAN RUN AGAIN!!! 

A wardrobe malfunction meant I missed the gym, so when I got in I suited up for a little easy jog - 17 minutes with a few dashes.  Knees: GOLDEN.  (Calves cramping, feet aching, glutes startled, shins tweaking, but that's just conditioning)

Jack's back, baby, Jack's back. :D

So for reference that's 8 weeks off running, most off the bike as well, for running through an obvious Something Wrong for several hours.  I've put on half a stone too.  Let that be a lesson to any macho types!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on December 31, 2009, 05:08:29 pm
Great news, good for you. 

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on January 06, 2010, 01:53:40 pm
I haven't touched my bike for over two weeks now; but I have been running every other day at least and daily recently. We were staying in Rutland and I have enjoyed a whole range of trail and off road runs in the snow for the most part, ranging from 50' to 120'. I did run along the North Shore quite a bit, then to Eggleton, around the peninsual (from Barnsdale and back) but also went to explore Bourne Woods which I enjoyed as well. I managed two night runs with my Petzl, one in the woods and in open fields along a track I thankfully knew well enough by then, as the sun was coming down on Rutland Water. Sheer joy!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on January 06, 2010, 05:36:15 pm
lovely run in the snow this afternoon, really squeaky :)   I had to walk a couple of icy bits but apart from that it was damn fine!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on January 06, 2010, 05:37:27 pm
I'm going to give it a go tomorrow, but it was hard to walk in places today cos it was so deep.  I dunno what running will be like.  Maybe easier, if it has frozen...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on January 06, 2010, 06:35:53 pm
The main issue, I find, with thick snow is that the top of the shoe can get covered in snow which in melting and over time leads to wet feet, even with good off road shoes. But other than that I find that little beats cold, in the snow off-road or trail running.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on January 06, 2010, 06:45:15 pm
yes, my feet were absolutely frozen by the time I got back but it's only 45 minutes of cold, well worth it IMHO :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on January 07, 2010, 11:16:10 pm
My feet very rarely get cold running - only exception is hillrunning through melting snow which is a purgatorial experience.

Current condition round us are absolutely fantastic for running.  Very cold, which gives beautifully clear air, and some untreated roads that provide a lovely firm but forgiving surface with that wonderful "snow-squeak"!

Mind you 45 mins in -12 did give me frozen cheeks - wouldn't have wanted to be out much longer.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on January 10, 2010, 07:41:23 pm
Lovely run yesterday afternoon with my good friend Julian; 45', felt cold too, but the snow offered a great footing and made the route very pretty. I felt lazy today and didn't go out; more tomorrow I hope!

PS Lovely route (pictures) MV.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on January 12, 2010, 12:04:40 am
Damn weather: I wanted to run off road tonight having arrived home not so late; well I would have been better off sticking to the roads as the paths I went alon were ice rinks! I eventually rejoined the road but with trail shoes that wasn't great.

Lessons: (1) Must dig out spikes next time around or (2) must stick to the road; alternatively use spikes and go to the track! It'll be boring but safe!  ::-)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on January 12, 2010, 07:21:44 am
I bought some innov8 trainers at the weekend (these ones, I think: Inov-8 running shoes, mens and womens shoes for fell, trail running, orienteering and free running (http://www.inov-8.com/Products-Detail.asp?PG=PG1&L=26&P=5050973044) , because they were the only ones the shop had in a size 12).  The difference in grip was amazing, ice was still a no-go, but slush and icy snow were a piece of cake.   Very pleased with them and they should keep me going through the muddy thaw too.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on January 12, 2010, 08:18:37 am
I've got some New Balance Off Road shoes, and they're very good on snow.  The mesh uppers aren't ideal though...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on January 12, 2010, 02:16:10 pm
I use Adidas trail shoes (and have some Adidas road shoes as well for the matter) and am very pleased with them for road, grass, mud and snow runs (though they are stiff on the road as most such shoes are, in particular if they have rock guards in the sole); on polished ice though, only spikes would have done last night!

Inov-8 do get a good press as a specialist off road and moutain running company.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on January 22, 2010, 08:53:09 pm
I have a hall full of Inov-8s and rank them highly.  In fact over the last 5 weeks I've pretty much exclusively been wearing either Gore-Tex Roclites or Mudroc "O"s with Sealskinz socks as the only thing to keep me going in the snow.

We're still inundated: thinking that the snow was clearing, I headed off up into the forest today, fed up of the same route along the only semi-cleared quiet country road in the area.  Unfortunately I was confronted with 5 miles of shin-deep snow with a frozen crust that was so tough to run in that just trying to walk got me into my target heart rate range, and a run that took nearly twice as long as normal.

Despite the frustration, I was amazed that although I was the only biped who'd been along these tracks for weeks, the local wildlife had been very active.  There was a profusion of even quite recent tracks crossing the trail, suggesting a hive of activity which is normally quite invisible to me on my daily treks.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Blah on January 25, 2010, 01:28:20 pm
I've got some New Balance Off Road shoes, and they're very good on snow.  The mesh uppers aren't ideal though...

The idea of the mesh uppers is that in most multi terrain races, you'll be going through a ditch or some kind of water feature. The focus is then on getting the water out of the shoe as quickly as possible. I've never understood why you'd want to make a running shoe even remotely waterproof, although I am enjoying my nearly unused gore-text Innov8's that I got second hand for next to nothing
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on January 25, 2010, 05:23:34 pm
And so it begins. 20 minutes on the treadmill at 10.5kph (1o incline).

After 5 minutes my HR was up to 172bpm and usual cardiac drift took it up to 190bpm by the end. Joy upon joy. Guess I'm not as fit as I was a few months ago. My total distance run in 2010 is greater than my total distance cycled so far. Forgot my Forerunner chest strap so I can't tell for sure about the HR, had to resort to backup old Polar and the readout on the treadmill itself.

Someone had replaced the usual trance-shit CD with an Akon album, I only realised 30 seconds into my run. That's some drivel to listen to for 19 and a half minutes. Must remember to bring in mp3 player with my choice of music on it and leave it in my locker.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: geraldc on January 25, 2010, 05:42:29 pm
I'm following a guide on heart rate training, so I have to try keep my heart rate between 130 - 140 bpm. It results in amazingly slow runs (even for me), but it doesn't kill your legs which is awesome!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 01, 2010, 01:57:16 pm
Ooh, the BBC have picked up on Tough Guy.

BBC News - In pictures: Tough Guy Challenge (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/8490812.stm)

I've done it twice, 1999 and 2000. Great fun (in hindsight).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 01, 2010, 02:03:24 pm
Started running in vff's.  Up to a whole kilometer now.  Calves like wood.  Progress to be anticipated..!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 01, 2010, 02:17:13 pm
ooh, interesting! Are you more POSE or heel-strike? What gives out first at this magic kilometre mark?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 01, 2010, 02:51:06 pm
I started running very much in the shoe-of-a-thousand-technologies school.  Flirted with forefoot but never got into it.  I've been treating the vff a bit like a fixie - a funny training aid and cool pose.  ;)

With the vff's I'm completely on the ball of the foot, slightly outside - everything comes from there, with the calf working like a spring and heel just dabbing the ground before the drive.  It feels faster over the ground (longer effective leg?) but I haven't timed it.

Nothing gives out, so much as I have an absurd calf pump and have to stop - it's purely conditioning, not biomechanics.  The DOMS lasts around five days at this stage (bear in mind that I'm a heavy runner - 100kg at present - and haven't been running since my knee problem in early November). 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 01, 2010, 07:52:22 pm
Ah OK. I've recently**  switched to POSE running, but in my case I think I've ended up running rather like your desccriptiuon (I think POSE allows for a range of contact sequences, but anyway ... ). I've stuck with middish-range cushioned* shoes, rather than your trendy things, but I am interested in the various minimalist shoes.

That knackered-calves feeling is exactly what I got the last time I restarted running after months of just cycling. I'm lighter than you, and managed a cautions 15mins (which is hopefully more than 1k!). Calves still ached like billy-o afterward, and I'd barely got out of breath.

* (I haven't read a convincing explanation of why cushioned shoes are actually _bad_ for you with POSE, so I'll stick with the shoes that fit me for now).
** (2 years but very few miles.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 02, 2010, 11:50:43 am
Be really interested to see how you get on with the vff shoes - seem to me to be pretty sound biomechanically.  Closer to barefoot is better!  Maybe you saw this ...
         Video: Running barefoot may mean fewer injuries than wearing trainers |
            Science |
            guardian.co.uk
    (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/video/2010/jan/27/running-barefoot-injuries-trainers)

I'm confused about POSE running (similar to chi running?).  The theory sounds bizarre - how can gravity help, makes no sense - but the practice seems sound.  Again, hope you keep us up to date on your progress.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 02, 2010, 12:23:10 pm
I'm confused about POSE running (similar to chi running?).  The theory sounds bizarre - how can gravity help, makes no sense - but the practice seems sound.  Again, hope you keep us up to date on your progress.
Like most complicated subjects, there is a lot of drivel written by a lot of people! Of course gravity doesn't help!
I basically think of it as reducing the impediments to forward motion. Plus I see a an analogy with high-cadence pedalling - it seems intuitively obvious that a higher cadence means less impact per step/cycle, so less wear on joints etc.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 02, 2010, 12:41:14 pm
(You simply cannot heel-strike in vff's, it's impossible.  Gait adjusts automagically)

The cycling cadence analogy isn't precise.  You're load-bearing, which is what caught me out on the Druid.  Now the Druid was all about time, but I wonder how much turnover has to play.  Probably it holds, but not necessarily...

Calves are a LOT better today than they were after run #1.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 02, 2010, 03:01:11 pm
Andy,

would appreciate more detail on your choice of vff model - which one and why, and where did you get them?  how did you find the sizing? 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 02, 2010, 03:09:15 pm
I have the red Sprints.  I figured the strap would keep them on when wallowing in bogs, etc.  KSO is too shoe-y IMO and web comments on the classic said they sometimes came off when, well, wallowing in bogs.  The strap doesn't rub egregiously though YMMV. 

I am usually a size 45; in VFF I'm 42.  I got 'em from fitnessfootwear.com and to get the sizing right, used the official size guide here: Vibram Five Fingers: Discover the Barefooting Alternative (http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/index.cfm ) I found sizing just fine - I have broadish flattish feet without any mutant toes or talons. 

The red is truly atomic tart's-knickers red.  On feet it's not sporty so much as brazen - I'd have chosen the more muted taupe/clay if I'd seen them first. 

VFFs do get stinky.  Bung 'em in the wash.  They're designed for it.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 02, 2010, 03:25:19 pm
Great, thanks.

I thought the mesh over the top of the KSOs would keep bits of grit etc out - but you haven't hd a problem like that?  Your feet sound similar to mine, broadish and flattish!

and thanks for the colour advice -  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 02, 2010, 04:16:19 pm
I haven't really run in super-gritty places.  The KSO was added to the range after exactly that feedback. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 02, 2010, 04:37:13 pm
Another 25 minutes at 10.5kph on the treadmill.

Remembered to bring mp3 player in and so I had the benefit of banging choons. Certainly makes it much easier than hearing each and every footfall.

First time in ages I've felt like I could have gone on for longer.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on February 07, 2010, 12:09:45 pm
Just done a 10k fun run.
It hurt my calves quite a bit. I seemed to have a very high cadence compared to everyone else. I tried slowing it down and taking bigger strides which seemed a bit better. I did end up going back to my fast cadence now and then though. A good dash for the uphill finish made me dizzy when I crossed the line which was quite nice.
Dunno what time I did. It was under an hour for sure. Probably 50-55 minutes. It was reassuring to know that I put about 15 minutes into some marathon hopefulls. Especially as I've entered a half marathon and will be starting it this day next month. :o
I'd better get some running miles in...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 07, 2010, 11:01:51 pm
The thinking is that higher cadence (within limits!) is better - discouraging heel-striking and reducing impact forces.  Too long strides is believed to encourage shin splints ( a bad thing)

round about 180 bpm - try counting every right footfall for a minute, and if it's round about 90 then you are up there with the Kenyans  ;D

good luck with your half marathin

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 07, 2010, 11:15:39 pm
Up to a whole mile with the vff's. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on February 07, 2010, 11:46:32 pm
The thinking is that higher cadence (within limits!) is better - discouraging heel-striking and reducing impact forces.  Too long strides is believed to encourage shin splints ( a bad thing)

round about 180 bpm - try counting every right footfall for a minute, and if it's round about 90 then you are up there with the Kenyans  ;D




180 bpm sounds about right. Maybe even 200. I jog a mile and a half twice (an hour inbetween), twice a week. The last two weeks I was wearing steel toe capped boots and 3kg weights on each ankle. When I went back to my trainers today I had super light feet which I could throw all over the place. My legs not used to running is still my weakest link, but my lungs certainly got a bit of a workout, especially the last bit when I kept increasing the pace as I got nearer the finish and ran myself dizzy. Not eating breakfast probably never helped either.
I'll go back to just the trainers now to try increase my stride as well as my regular running distance and get used to my legs moving fast and taking the pounding. Then I'll go back to the weights again and try and do the same longer distance runs before the half marathon where I'll go back to my trainers and have the super light feet again. The fast cadence and short strides did feel more comfortable.


Quote
good luck with your half marathin

Cheers. I know I can do the distance. But it's just a matter of how much it will hurt. I'll aim for under 2 hours, but after today, I know I have some work to do yet.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on February 11, 2010, 10:17:43 pm
With the vff's I'm completely on the ball of the foot, slightly outside - everything comes from there, with the calf working like a spring and heel just dabbing the ground before the drive.  It feels faster over the ground (longer effective leg?) but I haven't timed it.
 

I tried landing on the ball of the foot instead of the heel tonight. I was thinking about it the other day and it seemed to make a lot of sense, especially for other reasons that I started running.
It felt more natural and I like it more. I've still got to get used to it.
I feel much slower, but that's no surprise to me. I'm just concentrating on landing on the ball of the foot for now until it becomes my default way of running. I think my technique is pretty poor, but it was my first go and I'm wearing big boots.
It also struck me as a bit camp, but that could be because my calves aren't up to big strides yet.


Quote
Nothing gives out, so much as I have an absurd calf pump and have to stop - it's purely conditioning, not biomechanics.


Yes, it feels like I'm starting from scratch again, but I'll perservere with it. It feels right, even though I'm not doing a very good job of it. I doubt I'll manage a sub 2 hour half marathon unless I pick it up quicker than I think I will, but if I can do the distance with this method then I'll be happy.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 11, 2010, 11:01:17 pm
My guess is that with a cadence ~180+ you don't need to worry too much about where you land - you'll naturally be landing on your forefoot, beautifully positioned for a powerful transition to a solid push-off (I was going to say thrust, but you know what people are like  O:-))
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on February 12, 2010, 12:14:49 am
My guess is that with a cadence ~180+ you don't need to worry too much about where you land - you'll naturally be landing on your forefoot, beautifully positioned for a powerful transition to a solid push-off (I was going to say thrust, but you know what people are like  O:-))

My cadence was probably more like 120 tonight. Very short strides too. I had my steel toecapped boots on and I was concentrating on planting my forefoot.
I'm pretty sure that I was landing on my heel on the 10k. I landed on the heel a few times tonight. I know I could have done a faster cadence and ran faster if I just ran like I did on the 10k, but I'm trying to change my running style and don't want to switch my brain off and fall back to landing on the heel.
I'll up my cadence and hopefully my stride once I suss out how to land and am able to land on the forefoot without needing to think about it. Then I'll need my calves to get used to it too. I just need to practice.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 13, 2010, 09:03:55 pm
...and vff's are up to 2.5km.  Will consolidate this for a couple of runs as it was achey in shins and arches at the end.  Quick though, for me.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 14, 2010, 08:28:16 pm
Started running in vff's.  Up to a whole kilometer now.  Calves like wood.  Progress to be anticipated..!

Hi Andy, what is the purpose? Is that to force you to run within and care for your body?

I may be showing my running age but the main ennemy for me is weight. If/when I was lighter I was healthier and able to run with proper racing shoes. Now I prefer running off road whenever I can or with fairly cushioned shoes and with pre and post stretching (I am over 80 kg at present, rather heavy for a runner; I always was but I was in the low 70 kg when I was competing).

As for landing on the ball I have seen a few light runners do it at my running club back in the days, though it is rare and more found among trackies. Is there evidence that it is better?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 14, 2010, 10:44:19 pm
Two aspects to "is there evidence it is better" ...

1) for all the "developments in running technology" trumpeted by the shoe companies, the indication is that running related injuires are pretty much as they were. in other words those expensive shoes are not making you any less prone to injury.

2) anecdotally and theoretically there is increasing inclination to the view that "more natural is better". partly fashion/trend stuff, but respected coaches like Joe Friel are suggesting that forefoot strike is both more efficient and less injurious.

The numbers are not in, jury not voted, but vff looks like a very interesting option.

FWIW I'm also playing with vff - 3 runs around 40 mins each so far, I think it's brilliant   ;D

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 14, 2010, 11:13:14 pm
While partly it's because I think the biomechanics are better (helped by testimonials from other runners) a lot of it is just that I'm a barefoot ape, I like feeling the ground with my toes and running barefoot makes me smile.

I mean really smile, the way a fresh baby carrot makes me smile, it's just happy feet.  Can't explain it any other way.

The freak flag is also pretty high in monkey shoes ;)

I'm a very heavy runner (98kg now, never under 90) and a martyr to both shin splints and now some ITB fun.  I noticed that with running shoes my foot landing is ugly, which is hard to explain, but the shoe is pretty intrusive.

You have to add a sprinkle of that Pirelli advert and a dash of extropian nonsense too - rather like a fixie, it's enhancement of human potential, but minimal enhancement.

Or something.

Ook! 8)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on February 14, 2010, 11:15:23 pm
Two aspects to "is there evidence it is better" ...

1) for all the "developments in running technology" trumpeted by the shoe companies, the indication is that running related injuires are pretty much as they were. in other words those expensive shoes are not making you any less prone to injury.

2) anecdotally and theoretically there is increasing inclination to the view that "more natural is better". partly fashion/trend stuff, but respected coaches like Joe Friel are suggesting that forefoot strike is both more efficient and less injurious.

The numbers are not in, jury not voted, but vff looks like a very interesting option.

FWIW I'm also playing with vff - 3 runs around 40 mins each so far, I think it's brilliant   ;D



I think that it also uses the inner core muscles more effectively, gives you better balance and more efficiency. I'm trying to change to landing on the ball of the foot to improve my inner core strength, improve my posture and translate it into cycling. I tried a different pedaling technique to ankling based on this today and I think I'm doing the right thing.
No evidence though, just me going by what I feel.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 15, 2010, 09:29:39 am
In my mind/imagination, right now, ball strike seems quite an impact and not "looking" very free flowing; unlike a medium to long stride with an efficient runner for example, and something, I must admit, I enjoy doing.

I get the message on shoe technology; though to be fair club and competitive runners tend to run with rather light shoes and would not benefit from such improvement. There are now many more runners on the other hand; many more occasional and heavier runners too. Maybe the technology cannot compensate for an un-healthy lifestyle?

I am not convinced this isn't another new commercially-interesting discovery is where I am getting at.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 15, 2010, 10:44:52 am
I'm going to crawl out of the woodwork here and say that I agree with the suspicions that Frenchie seems to have. 

I've only been running for a year or so and am no expert  but I have reached the stage where I can run reasonably comfortably, smoothly and efficiently in the 'normal' way which I see as landing on heels and immediately rolling onto forefoot before the impact gets a chance to jar my bones.  Landing on the ball of my foot as pose and modern barefoot techniques require would mean taking the impact with my Achilles tendon and doesn't ring true to me.  It's the difference between catching a heavy weight (your body) with an already tensed muscle and lifting it from the ground tensing your muscle as you lift, I know which I find easiest.

I'm sure there are runners who have impact problems with 'normal' running and by building up their Achilles tendon and using it as 'suspension' find they can run better.  There are also no doubt plenty of runners out there using this sort of technique who can run further and faster than me, I think that's just because they are better runners than me though.  I really doubt it's actually a 'better' way of running for most of us and there are many tales of Achilles injury in runners trying to adapt to it.  Time may prove me wrong but I suspect it's a trend and will never be more than a fringe method of running.

95% of the runners at the MK Half will be running 'normally' and while it might be a great to finish well using a non-conformist technique it could be a right downer to find yourself limping/walking the last few miles and kicking yourself for not taking the conservative approach.  I've run 7 halfs and buggered up 2 of them by starting too fast and hurting myself, those last 30 mins of crawling along watching everyone go past towards the end seem to go on forever  :(

That's my 2d worth but either way good luck and run well  :thumbsup:

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 15, 2010, 10:58:05 am
... the 'normal' way which I see as landing on heels and immediately rolling onto forefoot before the impact gets a chance to jar my bones.  Landing on the ball of my foot as pose and modern barefoot techniques require would mean taking the impact with my Achilles tendon and doesn't ring true to me.
The POSE technique involves taking some weight on the heel too*; so just like your description, the load does spread over the entire foot.
The high cadence is also important - you are reducing peak force by using more impacts-per-minute. This is very hard to do with a heel strike. I can genuinely feel the difference in impact load when I switch styles.

Quote

I'm sure there are runners who have impact problems with 'normal' running and by building up their Achilles tendon and using it as 'suspension' find they can run better. 
Indeed. I only tried this nonsense because of an ankle problem** which was clearly exacerbated by the heel-strike loads. I had run for years before this using the "normal" way without problems.

So although I am persuaded by the theory, there are a billion variables, and it's still under evaluation for me.

*See also andy's description of his gait.
**I broke the ankle (and other things) in a car crash. The joint angles are now subtley different which may be the underlying cause.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 15, 2010, 11:01:12 am
Well, maybe, but I've been trying for nearly five years and I'm still a mighty bifter who thuds around.  That might well be because running is just one thing I do, rather than my be-all-and-end-all.  

I've never been as free-flowing as I am in the vff's, so I still think evolution might have a trick or two over the shoe guys.

Quote
There are now many more runners on the other hand; many more occasional and heavier runners too. Maybe the technology cannot compensate for an un-healthy lifestyle?

Careful with the conflation.  I'd be heavy at zero bodyfat.  Not *as* heavy, but still heavy.  If the technology cannot adequately serve its client market, the technology is wrong.

Edit to add: It's taken me six weeks to get able to cover distance in the vffs; I'll report back on how effective they are as actual Sunday-morning-5k daily-grind runners once I've actually done some of that!   ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 15, 2010, 01:24:38 pm
... the 'normal' way which I see as landing on heels and immediately rolling onto forefoot before the impact gets a chance to jar my bones.  Landing on the ball of my foot as pose and modern barefoot techniques require would mean taking the impact with my Achilles tendon and doesn't ring true to me.
The POSE technique involves taking some weight on the heel too*; so just like your description, the load does spread over the entire foot.
The high cadence is also important - you are reducing peak force by using more impacts-per-minute. This is very hard to do with a heel strike. I can genuinely feel the difference in impact load when I switch styles.


That I get (lower impact through high cadence) though I am still unsure about impact on the ankle articulation/tendon and even knee; as part of a training or recovery program. I am wondering how fast that can get one though? I am trying to picture track runners too who tend to land more flat fotted than mots roadies.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 15, 2010, 01:28:09 pm

The POSE technique involves taking some weight on the heel too*; so just like your description, the load does spread over the entire foot.
The high cadence is also important - you are reducing peak force by using more impacts-per-minute. This is very hard to do with a heel strike. I can genuinely feel the difference in impact load when I switch styles.

I expect what I read about pose was only one form of it (after all don't swimmers and the like also use a form of pose?) but I understood that the heel should never touch the ground.

.... a lot of it is just that I'm a barefoot ape, I like feeling the ground with my toes and running barefoot makes me smile.

This is what does appeal about the whole barefoot/natural running thing.  Sometimes it's more about how you do something than the result.  As you say like enjoying riding fixed even if you do end up a bit slower and hurt a bit more (as I do).


Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 15, 2010, 01:29:53 pm
Quote
There are now many more runners on the other hand; many more occasional and heavier runners too. Maybe the technology cannot compensate for an un-healthy lifestyle?

Careful with the conflation.  I'd be heavy at zero bodyfat.  Not *as* heavy, but still heavy.  If the technology cannot adequately serve its client market, the technology is wrong.


The point made is that with many more runners in the market, their difficulties with running may have nothing to do with the kit but but more with other parameters; which the shoe is not going to address per se. A more gentle form of exercise combined with an improved diet in a first instance, aimed at strengthening the body and improving the technique, would aid. Going into crazy running mode for the London marathon or the local 5K at short notice, even with the best of shoes, is not. This is a general comment; not one aimed to you.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 15, 2010, 01:36:43 pm

The POSE technique involves taking some weight on the heel too*; so just like your description, the load does spread over the entire foot.
The high cadence is also important - you are reducing peak force by using more impacts-per-minute. This is very hard to do with a heel strike. I can genuinely feel the difference in impact load when I switch styles.

I expect what I read about pose was only one form of it (after all don't swimmers and the like also use a form of pose?) but I understood that the heel should never touch the ground.

{swimming? - No idea mate!}

Well ... there do seem to be a few interpretations!

The best description I found, was to start off running on the spot,
then lean forward and just allow yourself to run with the same motion.

If you try running on the spot right now, you'll probably find your heel at least grazes the ground. (Although you can deliberately stop it if you try). Ball lands first, but then your weight pushes the rest of the foot down.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 15, 2010, 01:58:55 pm

The POSE technique involves taking some weight on the heel too*; so just like your description, the load does spread over the entire foot.
The high cadence is also important - you are reducing peak force by using more impacts-per-minute. This is very hard to do with a heel strike. I can genuinely feel the difference in impact load when I switch styles.

I expect what I read about pose was only one form of it (after all don't swimmers and the like also use a form of pose?) but I understood that the heel should never touch the ground.

{swimming? - No idea mate!}

(quick Google) Pose swimming, cycling, speed skating, walking, throwing, skiing - all courtesy of Dr Romanov who I understand invented the whole idea in Russia.

If you try running on the spot right now ....

There will be a lot of funny looks  :o

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 18, 2010, 10:57:03 pm
In my mind/imagination, right now, ball strike seems quite an impact and not "looking" very free flowing; unlike a medium to long stride with an efficient runner for example, and something, I must admit, I enjoy doing.

I get the message on shoe technology; though to be fair club and competitive runners tend to run with rather light shoes and would not benefit from such improvement. There are now many more runners on the other hand; many more occasional and heavier runners too. Maybe the technology cannot compensate for an un-healthy lifestyle?

I am not convinced this isn't another new commercially-interesting discovery is where I am getting at.

The impact thing is interesting - if you look at how the impact is dissipated in heel-strike vs forefoot strike it seems obvious to me that forefoot strike is preferable ...

With forefoot strike you have a beautifully architected arch structure which absorbs and stores shock and recycles as elastic energy, comparable to doing squats where the stored energy on the down helps the rise.

With heel strike, you've got a fat pad on the heel.  That's it.

Try an experiment - go three step up some stairs and jump off landing on your forefoot  and springing forward.  Now do the same again landing on your heel.  Which rattles your teeth more?  Which gives you the best forward momentum?

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 18, 2010, 11:29:17 pm
Pose swimming?  Sounds like a spin on "press your buoy", which is the standard advice for novice front-crawl swimmers.  By concentrating on pushing you floaty chest down and then swimming downhill, your body assumes the correct high-hips position and your legs don't drag. 

But it's really just a physical mnemonic...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 19, 2010, 10:02:50 am
I've been buzzing all week because on Monday I ran up my first Monro (Scottish hills over 3000ft/914metres) for more than 15 years!

I was happily ticking them off, 3-7 hour days running in the hills, when my body pretty much fell apart, feet, ankles, back all knackered, maybe arthritis maybe not. Long rehab, most recently with achilles problems, so it was unbelievably fantastic to be out.

Not a biggie, Meall Cluaich, above Dalwhinnie, out and back 3km on Hydro Board track then steady up hill. Snow for top 300m vertical, new powder on old granular snow, quite gentle angles so no danger of avalanche or sliding over the edge! Unfortuantley clag at the top stopped any views

Brilliant!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 19, 2010, 02:09:07 pm
Not a biggie, Meall Cluaich,

That's a lot of contours [url Meall Chuaich, Drumochter - Route Map (http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/maps/map2_10cg.shtml) /url]  :o.  I'm only a bit jealous.

I also found snow to run in on top of my local Shotover hill this morning, only an 80m climb but still seems to be enough altitude to have stopped last night' fall melting.  Always amazes me I can run in 2 inches of snow in thin socks and trail shoes and not get cold feet.  The field at the bottom was up to my ankles in melt water.

I often land on my forefoot running down hill to prevent jarring and always run up steep hills on my forefoot (not much choice really).  I think it harder work on the calf and Achilles though and change back to my normal style as soon as I get back on the flat.  I think running writer Bob Glover describes this as 'changing gear'.  (And yes now you mention it I climb and descend the stairs on my forefoot without even thinking about it.)

Attempting an off-road hilly 20 miler and an off-road bit hilly marathon for the first time last year I was surprised to pass many apparently experienced runners walking the steeper hills right from the beginning.  They were maybe less surprised to overtake me as I walked up the slight inclines towards the end  :-[.  I believe they were sparing themselves the stress of straining up the hills on the forefoot so that their muscles would last the course.  Unless you get shin splints or joint trouble it's unlikely to be the bones that hurt first but I certainly get sore leg muscles and I intend to try and preserve them on this years longer runs.

Nik 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 19, 2010, 04:58:36 pm
Nice hill ride. I'd like to do one in the PD this Sunday, if possible.

Having just tried the forefoot landing, I certainly feel more of an impact on the knees and Achille's. With the heel landing I roll foward in motion (quickly) and spring away; a smoother transition on the flat. Yes, on hills I run more on the forefoot.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 19, 2010, 05:40:34 pm
Not a biggie, Meall Cluaich,

That's a lot of contours [url Meall Chuaich, Drumochter - Route Map (http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/maps/map2_10cg.shtml) /url]  :o.
What a great site:
DISCLAIMER: Walking can be dangerous


:P
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 19, 2010, 06:20:03 pm
Not a biggie, Meall Cluaich,

That's a lot of contours [url Meall Chuaich, Drumochter - Route Map (http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/maps/map2_10cg.shtml) /url]  :o.
What a great site:
DISCLAIMER: Walking can be dangerous


:P

Agreed, brilliant site, thanks
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 22, 2010, 04:47:02 pm
30 mins at 10.5kph on the treadmill (1o incline). 477 kcal including warm up and cool down.

The fan in the gym was broken and so I was even sweatier than normal. Felt quite light headed after finishing. Peaked at 191bpm. DO NOT LIKE.

33 mins next time. May even nip to Maplin and buy a fan. Ugh.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 22, 2010, 07:55:11 pm
30 mins at 10.5kph on the treadmill
...

The fan in the gym was broken and so I was even sweatier than normal. Felt quite light headed after finishing. Peaked at 191bpm. DO NOT LIKE.
Couldn't you just slow down? :-?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 22, 2010, 08:27:05 pm
But how would he get a body like yours if he slows down?

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 22, 2010, 09:05:07 pm
Couldn't you just slow down? :-?

Because below 10.5kph is just slow.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 23, 2010, 10:40:46 am
30 mins at 10.5kph on the treadmill (1o incline). 477 kcal including warm up and cool down.

The fan in the gym was broken and so I was even sweatier than normal. Felt quite light headed after finishing. Peaked at 191bpm. DO NOT LIKE.

33 mins next time. May even nip to Maplin and buy a fan. Ugh.

Do the speeds on those treadmills reflect real running speeds?  (I know miles done on my turbo trainer at 'neutral' setting are noticeably slower than real miles on the road.)

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 23, 2010, 11:44:51 am
Do the speeds on those treadmills reflect real running speeds?  (I know miles done on my turbo trainer at 'neutral' setting are noticeably slower than real miles on the road.)

Pretty much yes, it's very slightly easier on a treadmill as it is perfectly even and there's less thought involved in foot placement. The 1o incline makes up for that though.

It's not like a turbo on neutral setting, you're still running that distance. There aren't any resistance settings on a treadmill. The belt is moving at whatever speed you set it to. If you don't match your speed then you'll know about it reasonably quickly.

A treadmill is the running equivalent of doing all of your cycling on lovely smooth Welsh A-roads.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 23, 2010, 12:58:52 pm
I'm not entirely convinced of that, but a treadmill is definitely closer to the real thing than a turbo is.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 23, 2010, 01:17:00 pm
Yes thinking about it they're very different things, I suppose if so many k of belt has disappeared behind you then you must have run that far.  I suppose the momentum carrying you forward might be different.  And the incline - is that just a sort of technical paperback wedged under the front?

(Not that I'm particularly tempted - I think I'd rather run up a hill in the mud.)

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 23, 2010, 01:35:39 pm
Fancy treadmills have a controllable incline, so you can do hill stuff (even less real, but still challenging) and so on.

It's got to be pretty close, because a friend started his running career off using just a treadmill for a 1:45 half-marathon. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 23, 2010, 01:54:24 pm
I'm not entirely convinced of that

Which bit? (because you go on to agree with me that it's "pretty close" in your next post)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 23, 2010, 02:05:20 pm
I'm vague on how to describe it, which is why I left it vague.  Certainly with hills it's obvious, you're not doing the work to lift a body against gravity, just running on a slope.  Otherwise... I don't have the brain for physics right now.  Bah.  :P
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 23, 2010, 02:37:34 pm
Right - I'm going to put my Physics degree on the line here ... !

I used to have the uneasy feeling that treadmills were doing some of the  work for you. But I _think_ I've convinced myself its the same as GB's perfect smooth Welsh A-road.

Once the belt is moving backward at 6mph, it must take the same effort to run "stationary" as it would to run along the same belt laid out along the floor.

[Standard simplifying assumptions:
You are not running at relativistic speeds.
Real running involves some wind-resistance - I assume this is why GB runs with a fan opposing his progress.]

The advantage (if any) with real-world running is you work those little 'balance' muscles more, and vary your stride pattern to gain <unquantifiable training benefit>. Plus of course you get used to crap weather!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 23, 2010, 02:48:36 pm
Oh I see.

The main reason for using the incline is because my physio advised not to run on the flat on a treadmill; either inclined slightly down or slightly up, and there's no way of those two I'm going to set it to be on a downward slope.

A running machine set to 10o incline is no different to running up a perfectly smooth 10o inclined slope. If you pick the right frame of reference (such as the trailing/planted foot at the end of the stride) you can show there's no difference at all to climbing a real slope. You're climbing with each stride (the falling foot is impacting the treadmill above the trailing foot) but sliding backwards and downwards whilst that foot is in contact with the 'ground'. The climbing is still done just as it is with running (whilst the other foot is sliding backwards). It's not just a case of twisting the hips and running at an angle. Just set the treadmill to 20o and see how long you can keep it up at a good speed.

But, of course, a perfectly smooth slope is not what you climb in the real world, so it's not the same as running up a 10o track let alone a 10o uneven slippery grassy hill.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 23, 2010, 02:50:28 pm
A running machine set to 10o incline is no different to running up a perfectly smooth 10o inclined slope.

No!

On the road you're lifting your body as well as this frame-of-reference stuff. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 23, 2010, 02:51:15 pm
I assume this is why GB runs with a fan opposing his progress.

No, it's because it gets bloody hot without it because running on the spot means you don't get the cooling effect of the 'wind' you generate.

It's a good point though, static running on a treadmill will be slightly easier as you don't encounter aerodyanmic drag but drag is relatively small at running speeds.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 23, 2010, 02:53:49 pm
I assume this is why GB runs with a fan opposing his progress.

No, it's because it gets bloody hot without it because running on the spot means you don't get the cooling effect of the 'wind' you generate.

It's a good point though, static running on a treadmill will be slightly easier as you don't encounter aerodyanmic drag but drag is relatively small at running speeds.
Bazinga!

------------------------------------
[I'm still thinking about the incline thing ... ]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 23, 2010, 03:02:20 pm
A running machine set to 10o incline is no different to running up a perfectly smooth 10o inclined slope.

No!

On the road you're lifting your body as well as this frame-of-reference stuff. 

Yes. Do the physics.

You're still lifting your body on a treadmill. Each subsequent footfall is the appropiate height higher and further forward than the previous one.

If it wasn't then it wouldn't be any harder running on a treadmill on an incline? Try running on one at minimum incline and then at maximum incline.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 23, 2010, 03:06:39 pm
A running machine set to 10o incline is no different to running up a perfectly smooth 10o inclined slope.

No!

On the road you're lifting your body as well as this frame-of-reference stuff. 

Yes. Do the physics.

You're still lifting your body on a treadmill. Each subsequent footfall is the appropiate height higher and further forward than the previous one.

If it wasn't then it wouldn't be any harder running on a treadmill on an incline? Try running on one at minimum incline and then at maximum incline.
Yes this is what I was going to say. However:
When running, you actually leave the ground for a short time. In that time the belt drops a few cm that you never need to climb. So I think the effective gradient is slightly less. God knows how big this effect is ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 23, 2010, 03:20:14 pm
It seems someone has already done the calculations for wind resistance and worked out how to compensate with the incline adjustment http://www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php (http://www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php)

So according to this at 1 degree Greenbank is ruining harder than the equivalent on (flat, smooth etc) road.

Slow down!

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 23, 2010, 03:22:40 pm
ruining


That's running (strange typo)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 23, 2010, 03:36:06 pm
Yes this is what I was going to say. However:
When running, you actually leave the ground for a short time. In that time the belt drops a few cm that you never need to climb. So I think the effective gradient is slightly less. God knows how big this effect is ...

Hmm. Interesting.

To turn it around, I wonder if running machines take this into account and adjust the incline appropriately? I've never measured whether the an incline setting of 10o corresponds to a real incline of 10o.

I may have just found a use for the iPhone spirit level application. I may have to nip down to the running machine in the gym to test it out.

The average running stride length is about 2m, footfall on a treadmill is about 1m apart. So, in the absence of some proper thought, you'd need a real incline of 2o on the treadmill to mimic a 1o incline.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 23, 2010, 04:15:05 pm
Not sure why you are so opposed to running downhill?

Challenges different muscles (quads especially) but running slightly downhill can be a really good way to work on good form, and is hard work as well!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 23, 2010, 04:15:44 pm
OK, iPhone spirit level application used in anger for first time ever.

To be fair to the running machine I use it doesn't have degrees next to the incline, it's just an incline setting (but see below).

It goes up to 12 which, according to the spirit level app, was only 8o. (Intermediate incline settings matched proportionally.)

But, I think it does assume it is degrees because I remember it telling me I'd climbed 55m after my 30 minutes at 10.5kph at an incline setting of 1. (30mins at 10.5kph = 5.25km, plus a bit more for warm up and cool down, and 1% of that is ~55m).

So according to this at 1 degree Greenbank is ruining harder than the equivalent on (flat, smooth etc) road.

So a setting of 1 (which it thinks is 1o) is actually closer to 0.7o (8/12 = 0.6666...), combined with the fact that my footfalls are only about 1m apart (rather than nearer 2m apart on the actual belt) means that is more like 0.5o.

I should really be running at a setting of 2 (so 1.4o) which would be trimmed down to something under 1o of real climbing given 'short strides' and almost perfectly match where it should be on the table NikW posted to replicate the missing air resistance of running at ~6.5mph (10.5kph) which was somewhere between 0o and 1o of real incline.

This, of course, assumes that the chart hasn't already taken this into account.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 23, 2010, 04:23:44 pm
Anyone fancy a pint?



</Fast Show>
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 23, 2010, 04:33:46 pm
I like running; but running outside and running day dreaming... I have to admit to NOT doing any physics (mentally at least) when I run! I don't drinkl beer though...  :-[

(I do get terribly bored on a treadmill; the same on a turbo)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 23, 2010, 04:35:28 pm
Anyone fancy a pint?
</Fast Show>

No ta - think I'll just go for a run!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 23, 2010, 04:38:03 pm
I like running; but running outside and running day dreaming... I have to admit to NOT doing any physics (mentally at least) when I run! I don't drinkl beer though...  :-[

(I do get terribly bored on a treadmill; the same on a turbo)

If I'm lacking in enthusiasm to run I just have to look at turbo and out come the running shoes  ;D

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 23, 2010, 04:39:58 pm
I like running; but running outside and running day dreaming... I have to admit to NOT doing any physics (mentally at least) when I run! I don't drinkl beer though...  :-[

(I do get terribly bored on a treadmill; the same on a turbo)

If I'm lacking in enthusiasm to run I just have to look at turbo and out come the running shoes  ;D


Yep. Even at night, in the wet, a good run with a Petzl and some music on does me good.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 23, 2010, 05:59:33 pm
my brane hurts
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 23, 2010, 06:00:32 pm
I can go into more detail if that is required?

;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on February 24, 2010, 02:18:34 pm
my brane hurts

Must be the beer... <sorry!>  :P
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on February 24, 2010, 08:25:00 pm
Hardest bit for me with treadmills is keeping the brain from getting so bored it orders the rest of the body off the treadmill.  I did have my own (fairly powerful) treadmill for a couple of years and found it agonising to use, just charging along and going nowhere.  I'd far rather have the experience of the scenery moving past me, even if it's pitch dark and pouring with rain.  The only time I use them now is if I'm in some inner city hotel in a dodgy looking area.

The biggest downside for me is that there seems to be very little market for them second-hand.  After purchasing ours for about £700 several years ago, I struggled to sell it for more than a fraction of that.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 24, 2010, 08:31:38 pm
...  The only time I use them now is if I'm in some inner city hotel in a dodgy looking area.
+1
Quote
The biggest downside for me is that there seems to be very little market for them second-hand.  After purchasing ours for about £700 several years ago, I struggled to sell it for more than a fraction of that.
Gulp.

that's a lot of new running shoes (or bicycles!) and warm hats. I suspect decent rowers give a better return (but I've never looked into it properly - one for the other thread, probably ... )
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on February 24, 2010, 08:39:24 pm
I hasten to add I didn't buy it for me, but after six months I was the only one who used it with any frequency...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 27, 2010, 10:08:10 am
So are any of you planning on running any events in 2010.  Having a few races planned is a good way of keeping the running on schedule but maybe that's where the cycling starts to become the cross training for the running (which it is for me) instead of the other way round.

I've got several events in the pipeline but my biggie for the year should be the Neolithic Marathon (http://newsite.wiltshirewildlifetrust.org.uk/WhatsOn/SarsenTrail/Route/WideTemplate.aspx) which took me just under 5 hrs as my 1st ever marathon last year and I hope to reduce to 4hrs 30m this year as my 2nd ever.

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on February 27, 2010, 11:00:51 am
Triathlons for me, at least until I'm satisfied my knee is fully recovered.  That Neolithic looks fun... but I'm sour on marathon distance now!  Offroad yes.  Offroad is a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on February 27, 2010, 12:16:57 pm
Hoping to do a few duathlons.  Should have done a club one today but couldn't get the car off the street with the snow   :(

Meant I had a fabulous run in deepish solid snow on local trails instead - felt great, slow running becos' of teh conditions but really felt lively and strong.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 27, 2010, 01:01:12 pm
My grand target is an hour without the bad kind of pain - distance irrelevant!

If I reach this, and I can do 10k in that time, I might try an "official" 10k, as this is something N has considered (she'll whip my arse if we both enter). But I may have to accept that "distance" running is just beyond me these days, we'll see.

I'd love to do a mass-start marathon, but it's purely a dream at this stage.

(Might ride over to watch NikW suffer - I think it's on the way back from the BC400 ... hmmm ... )
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on February 27, 2010, 02:08:26 pm
Build up to running in to work in under an hour (11km and almost completely flat).

May enter a half marathon in September (in Windsor) and I'd aim for sub 2-hours.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 27, 2010, 03:46:31 pm
(Might ride over to watch NikW suffer - I think it's on the way back from the BC400 ... hmmm ... )

I think I can guarantee a quality suffering spectacle anywhere after the 20 mile point  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 27, 2010, 03:56:08 pm
My only ever multi-sport experience was The Boneshaker (http://www.bone-shaker.co.uk/) off-road duathlon which did what it says on the tin.  Might well be there again this year.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on February 27, 2010, 04:08:42 pm
So are any of you planning on running any events in 2010. 

I am number 2556 in the Milton Keynes Half Marathon next weekend. :o
I ran a 10k in about 50 minutes about 3 weeks ago. That was bad enough. I'll try and take things easier in the half marathon though. I only want to finish and am not to fussed about time. I'm not really used to running so I'm using this to get used to it rather than test myself, but I'll probably end up going too hard.
I want to build up to something more extreme by the end of the year. I like the idea of the 3 day event that Andy had a go at last year. That'd be a good thing to work up to. Only to finish though, just for the fun of it.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on February 27, 2010, 09:38:38 pm
I've just discovered that after 5 years of trying I've managed to get into the Ben Nevis race.  I last ran it nearly 20 years ago when of course I was younger, faster, lighter, and probably better looking.

I'm trying to devise a plan that will not leave me too embarrassed by my 20-years younger self.  I should mix in a bit more recumbent riding as well as all the running up and down hill, 'bent riding seems to help my hill running.  I was also considering the Loch Ness Marathon but the training might not be compatible with running the Ben.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 28, 2010, 08:00:10 am
I've just discovered that after 5 years of trying I've managed to get into the Ben Nevis race.  I last ran it nearly 20 years ago when of course I was younger, faster, lighter, and probably better looking.

I'm trying to devise a plan that will not leave me too embarrassed by my 20-years younger self.  I should mix in a bit more recumbent riding as well as all the running up and down hill, 'bent riding seems to help my hill running.  I was also considering the Loch Ness Marathon but the training might not be compatible with running the Ben.

Richard Asquith writes about the Ben Nevis Race in 'Feet in The Clouds'.  4400 foot of climbing followed by the same back down - sounds like rather hard work!  I wouldn't worry though, should be easier now as they've bound to of worn a few feet off the top over the last 2 decades  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 01, 2010, 02:18:39 pm
My plan is to be fit enough to do some long sorties in the PD to do more of the runs on this list:
Home - Peak Trail Runner (http://peaktrailrunner.freehostia.com/mambo/)
I have done a few last year and really enjoyed myself, running typically 2.5 hours on those I did but as long at 3.5 hours on one run. Speed is not the issue over such terrain and length, but navigation, feeding and fun are the secret of the game.

I am retired form road racing "for good" I think. Too hard. I used to do halves in 79' to 84' 10 years ago. I did a local 5 Mi in 35' last year without specific training. Felt okay, but did I enjoy it? I am not sure.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: julianbramley on March 01, 2010, 05:30:31 pm
Only because I was breathing down your neck all the way round!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 01, 2010, 09:30:25 pm
Only because I was breathing down your neck all the way round!

I didn't see hear you!  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 02, 2010, 06:51:02 am
So are any of you planning on running any events in 2010. 

I am number 2556 in the Milton Keynes Half Marathon next weekend. :o
I ran a 10k in about 50 minutes about 3 weeks ago. That was bad enough. I'll try and take things easier in the half marathon though. I only want to finish and am not to fussed about time. I'm not really used to running so I'm using this to get used to it rather than test myself, but I'll probably end up going too hard.
I want to build up to something more extreme by the end of the year. I like the idea of the 3 day event that Andy had a go at last year. That'd be a good thing to work up to. Only to finish though, just for the fun of it.

I ran the other, smaller, NSPCC Milton Keynes Half last year and really 'enjoyed' it.  Apart from all them cycle paths there was a park and a lake and stuff and the nearest thing to a hill was the climb up from path to road.  1:52 something which was a PB at the time, only 25 minutes behind the rest of our club.  It felt huge with 1200 odd runners - the March one is much bigger.

Your legs are going to hurt you know! 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on March 02, 2010, 11:25:15 am
I used to run regularly, but not since my son was born 4 years ago. I figured that commuting 14 miles each way would mean I'd be back to running 15km immediately. How wrong I was. I bailed at 6.5km. Two days later, I can still only just walk down the stairs. Bizarrely, my legs feel fine  on the bike.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 02, 2010, 11:28:06 am
I used to run regularly, but not since my son was born 4 years ago. I figured that commuting 14 miles each way would mean I'd be back to running 15km immediately. How wrong I was. I bailed at 6.5km. Two days later, I can still only just walk down the stairs. Bizarrely, my legs feel fine  on the bike.

It just goes to show how running and cycling use a considerably different set of muscles. My legs feel knackered after playing 5-a-side for an hour but I still manage to put in a fast 12km commute home each time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on March 02, 2010, 01:09:27 pm
Hill running and riding fixed seems to have a bit of an overlap.

I can still ride a bike with  legs tired from running, but leg braking hurts.  A lot.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on March 02, 2010, 02:58:05 pm
My plan is to be fit enough to do some long sorties in the PD to do more of the runs on this list:
Home - Peak Trail Runner (http://peaktrailrunner.freehostia.com/mambo/)
I have done a few last year and really enjoyed myself, running typically 2.5 hours on those I did but as long at 3.5 hours on one run. Speed is not the issue over such terrain and length, but navigation, feeding and fun are the secret of the game.

I am retired form road racing "for good" I think. Too hard. I used to do halves in 79' to 84' 10 years ago. I did a local 5 Mi in 35' last year without specific training. Felt okay, but did I enjoy it? I am not sure.

Fell (or hill - depending where you are in the UK) is much more laid back than road racing though there's always the competitive in there somewhere.  It's much easier to relax at the back of the field and enjoy the scenery than is the case when you're pounding round some anonymous town centre.  I gave up road racing 20 years ago except for the odd particularly scenic run or for a specific purpose (eg chasing a 10 mile time).

I can also run for several hours and not feel too bad, but trying the same thing on a bike is much harder!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 02, 2010, 07:35:30 pm
First time I cycled back from a run race where I'd given it my best I found sitting on the bike really, really uncomfy -  like I imagine it would be after a few hard boots up the posterior.   I think the muscles I was relying on for padding were the very same I'd just wrecked running.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 02, 2010, 10:23:43 pm
In triathlon the bike to run transition can be, in my limited experience, quite painful. I have no experience of doing it the other way round; I used to run to and back from my club/track to warm up/down...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 03, 2010, 04:34:27 am

Your legs are going to hurt you know! 

Yup.
That's why I'm not woried about a time. I reckon I'm fit enought to get under 2 hours quite easily, but my legs aren't up to it. I'll just try to survive. There are supposed to be about 5000 runners, so I should bag some company at the back of the field.

Hill running and riding fixed seems to have a bit of an overlap.


I find running uphill much more comfortable than on the flat and even better than running downhill. On a 10k fun run about 5 years ago I was passing everyone on the uphills because it was easy, but everyone passed me on the downhill.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on March 03, 2010, 08:29:04 am
Lovely run in today. Still, dead quiet, clear winters dawn with a heavy frost. Great views off the hill up and down the Tay Estuary.

Used the HRM logger and was surprised at how high the pulse was (mostly in zone 4) as I didn't think I was trying that hard, but that could be the effect of blood donoring yesterday.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on March 03, 2010, 09:20:40 am
Running downhill is a fairly specific skill, you gotta practice it.  I don't have it... a friend who does is an absolute streak.  Cadence and a lack of fear seem to factor.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 03, 2010, 05:18:13 pm
Running downhill is a fairly specific skill, you gotta practice it.  I don't have it... a friend who does is an absolute streak.  Cadence and a lack of fear seem to factor.

Big strides too. Oh, and "black" nails!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 03, 2010, 05:28:05 pm
Big quads help too.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 03, 2010, 09:01:37 pm
I think it's also that the tendons in my legs are very tight too. I can run up stairs faster than I can run down them.
I should really do more some stretching.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 03, 2010, 10:23:33 pm
It's a dumb trick to offer advice without actually seeing you in action, but I'm going to do it anyway ...

There are two tricks to running downhill quickly - keep your weight forward and look well ahead .

Not rocket science and much easier to say than implement, becos' most people have a genuine and sensible reluctance to "let themselves go" feeling that they will be out of control and also that they quite want to see what they are putting their feet on next.

Tight tendons/muscles are unlikely to be a factor - most hill/fell runners I know are pretty inflexible!

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 03, 2010, 11:07:00 pm
It's a dumb trick to offer advice without actually seeing you in action, but I'm going to do it anyway ...

There are two tricks to running downhill quickly - keep your weight forward and look well ahead .

Not rocket science and much easier to say than implement, becos' most people have a genuine and sensible reluctance to "let themselves go" feeling that they will be out of control and also that they quite want to see what they are putting their feet on next.

Tight tendons/muscles are unlikely to be a factor - most hill/fell runners I know are pretty inflexible!



I might try that going down the stairs at work tomorrow, if I remember and am not carrying my coffee. I can always grab the rail if it goes tits up.
I do tend to lean back when I descend. I probably think I'm on my bike.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 04, 2010, 07:44:28 am
It's a dumb trick to offer advice without actually seeing you in action, but I'm going to do it anyway ...

There are two tricks to running downhill quickly - keep your weight forward and look well ahead .

Not rocket science and much easier to say than implement, becos' most people have a genuine and sensible reluctance to "let themselves go" feeling that they will be out of control and also that they quite want to see what they are putting their feet on next.

Tight tendons/muscles are unlikely to be a factor - most hill/fell runners I know are pretty inflexible!


I enjoy running downhill off-road, like Rich says don't resist your weight and keep your eyes open.

Shouldn't you have mentioned the bit about it being nigh on impossible to stop quickly at the bottom though Rich!  I do hope Teethgrinder has got a clear run at the bottom of his stairs  :o
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on March 04, 2010, 07:46:25 am
That "letting yourself go" bit is what I stick on.  Not least because as a bifter I genuinely worry that I'll accelerate beyond my ability to stop or keep up, and cartwheel down the hill shedding kit and teeth.

Practice practice practice... :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 04, 2010, 08:22:18 am
Yeah, it's a valid worry, it's very easy to describe and much harder to implement

I try and stay light on my feet and not take long strides, but fastish cadence. The thing about looking forward helps as well - gives you advance warning of hazards so more notice to stop or adjust course.

The likes of Jack "falling stone" Maitland or Andy "speed kills" Styan look just manic on descents but they are very controlled - relaxed and concentrating like crazy.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 05, 2010, 08:27:56 am
I would support Rich's comment to a point; I have always been told to run long strides, barely bouncing of the hill surface, looking ahead and planning one's course, and letting go. Hard to do. Resisting makes it more painful. I am bad at it and tend to do what Rich reports, fast, smaller strides; but I can't keep up with the fast guys.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 05, 2010, 08:50:25 am
I would support Rich's comment to a point; I have always been told to run long strides, barely bouncing of the hill surface, looking ahead and planning one's course, and letting go. Hard to do.

Agreed, this is close to perfect form, but only if you land midfoot with your weight moving forward, ie not braking.

If you overstride and land on your heel there a risk of it going away from you

(btw I consider myself a poor descender, too much of a chicken, but still managed top ten in British Championship short races - so it's very possible to train yourself up to a reasonable level)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 05, 2010, 11:28:57 am
Are we avoiding the Elephant (descending behind us) In The Room here?

Humans aren't very well designed for descending (monkeys climb down trees); running downhill seems like a massive increase in load on the joints, even done slowly. Not being competitive, and already suffering from running gently on the flat, I'm therefore inclined to descend very steadily indeed.

<\boring old fart>

p.s. a mate of mine left me for dead by running straight down this (in walking boots):
Maps of the world, street map search - powered by Multimap (http://www.multimap.com/s/OO8S0VZ0)
(descent SE off Great Gable - at least 300m down)

--------------------
Edit: Just remembered the business about eccentric* contractions etc.
Normal running:
you supply a small force to cushion your landing, then
a LARGE force to spring away.

Descending:
LARGE force to cushion each landing, then
fairly small force to spring away (cos gravity does all the work)

IIRC training your muscles will give them strength in the 1 direction you use most
i.e. until you've descended a lot, your muscles won't be strong in that kind of work. This may make you very injury-prone.

[*I've forgotten all the right jargon to use here :( ]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on March 05, 2010, 03:10:45 pm
I'm a very cautious descender - usually lose a lot of places on the descent as a result.  The flipside is that on a race with a few ups and downs I can sometimes haul in those that passed me on the descent on the following ascent.  On more "gentle" descents with a secure surface I can let it rip but it does take a lot out of me.

My race tactics usually involve getting to the top as fast as possible and hoping I don't lose too many places on the way down.  If I may be briefly immodest, it worked quite well for me when I was young and fit.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 05, 2010, 06:21:09 pm
I tried leaning forward a bit on a descent. Definitely faster. :thumbsup:
A bit like riding fixed in a lowish gear when you're not used to it though. It did feel like I was chasing to keep up with myself.
I think I need to practice more.
I definitely need to toughen up my legs for the landing, so it' probably worth me getting a few hills in, or at least using the landscaping of Milton Keynes. Plenty of steep grassy banks for me to run up and down.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 06, 2010, 10:41:58 am
Humans aren't very well designed for descending (monkeys climb down trees); running downhill seems like a massive increase in load on the joints, even done slowly. Not being competitive, and already suffering from running gently on the flat, I'm therefore inclined to descend very steadily indeed.

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.

By putting your weight forward running down hill and not resisting I think you actually lessen the impact as you are using the energy as momentum as you roll onto your midfoot and onwards towards the next step rather than absorbing the whole thud as you effectively stop between each footfall, probably by digging your heel in.  If my legs are tired or it's steep or slippery I'm usually too scared to let myself go and find I end up jolting myself about more by being cautious.  Obviously it ceases to be a sensible option if you fall over or crash into something.

The guy in red/black trousers (the winner?) at last years Cooper Hill Cheese Rolling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOyQBSMeIhM) demonstrates quite a good style (though a lot of the others seem to manage with their feet hardly touching the ground).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 06, 2010, 11:06:35 am
Humans aren't very well designed for descending (monkeys climb down trees); running downhill seems like a massive increase in load on the joints, even done slowly. Not being competitive, and already suffering from running gently on the flat, I'm therefore inclined to descend very steadily indeed.

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.
Crikey, that was a bit deep for me weekend elevenses! Sounds right though.


Quote
By putting your weight forward running down hill and not resisting I think you actually lessen the impact as you are using the energy as momentum as you roll onto your midfoot and onwards towards the next step rather than absorbing the whole thud as you effectively stop between each footfall, probably by digging your heel in.
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 06, 2010, 02:23:42 pm
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)

I'll probably move away from that tomorrow on the half marathon. I'm not sure I'll make it otherwise, but I might try it if the heel strike starts hurting more than I think it needs to. I'm no Eddie Izzard.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 06, 2010, 07:31:16 pm
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)

I'll probably move away from that tomorrow on the half marathon. I'm not sure I'll make it otherwise, but I might try it if the heel strike starts hurting more than I think it needs to. I'm no Eddie Izzard.


Most useful half-marathon survival tip I've read is:  'If you don't think you're running too slow you're almost certainly running too fast'.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 06, 2010, 08:21:33 pm
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)

I'll probably move away from that tomorrow on the half marathon. I'm not sure I'll make it otherwise, but I might try it if the heel strike starts hurting more than I think it needs to. I'm no Eddie Izzard.


Most useful half-marathon survival tip I've read is:  'If you don't think you're running too slow you're almost certainly running too fast'.  :thumbsup:

I've always adapted that sort of approach. When I was running cross country at school, even before then at a 1500 meter run in infant school. I was always last at sprints. I could have probably ran faster, but I never saw much point in sprinting. But running to get somewhere made sense. I allready accepted that I was a loser at running, so I just plodded. But I was buggerred to find that I was well up the field in a distance run.
I went on to cross country runs at secondary school and did the same thing. Just take it slow and think about keeping the pace up. On one run I always remember my teacher telling me to get a move on about 100m into a 2 mile run. I was well down the field allready as everyone had dashed off. I ignored him and carried on going at my own pace. About half way around I was passing lots of people and I was in the top 5 at the finish.
I applied this to my cycling and cycled my first 100 miles in a day solo when I was 13. I really got the bug for cycling when I found that I could go a very long way on my bike and running fell by the wayside.

I'm still in two minds as to whether I'll try for a sub 2 hour or just run and try to enjoy it. Every mile is signed, so I'll do my maths homework and use my stopwatch for the first few miles and see whether I think I can do a sub 2 hour.
I will try and resign myself to not aiming for a 2 hour though. Just start nice and easy. It's too much too soon really anyway, but then again, I'm a sucker for a challenge. ???
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 07, 2010, 02:50:40 pm
By putting your weight forward running down hill and not resisting I think you actually lessen the impact as you are using the energy as momentum as you roll onto your midfoot and onwards towards the next step rather than absorbing the whole thud as you effectively stop between each footfall, probably by digging your heel in.
NOW do you see why some of us are moving away from heel-strike? :)

While I land on my heel I do try not to strike it (unless I'm stumbling down a 1 in 5 just trying to loose speed to survive).  The idea is to roll with the blow and use the momentum to move forward rather than absorbing it in you knee or whichever bit hurts which is a waste.  Maybe heel-roll would be a better term.

I've heard the movement described as an arc, like your feet are just 2 segments of a wheel rim and you roll from one to the next by which time the 1st one is back in front again.  You don't want to 'strike'.  I saw Peter Turnbull strike his back wheel against the ground once when he was trying not to run me other, doing what  I think is technically known as a 'stoppie'.  That bent his wheel as would be expected but that's not normal usage any more than striking your heel while running is.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on March 07, 2010, 03:02:47 pm

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.


You might like to read "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Born-Run-Ultra-running-Super-athlete-Tribe/dp/1861978235/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267974067&sr=8-2) (coming out in paperback next month).  He puts forward a very persuasive argument that humans are made to run, and that our bipedal approach gives us certain advantages over quadrupeds which allowed early man to be a very successful hunter and to range far and wide.  Expanding on this argument he goes on to show evidence that most runners can continue to function at the same sort of level with little relative decline into their sixties.  This cheered me up immensely!

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 07, 2010, 03:31:22 pm
So it's that stage in the marathon training when long runs take over most of my Sundays.  It's not that I run all day so much as the after effect of my legs and brain not being up to much.  I'm pretty certain I will manage the mile walk to the pub at 4:30 but right at the moment a little nap sounds more appealing.

A hilly (for Oxford) 15 mile multi-terrain this morning.  Plan was to try and do a 10:30 pace and not to take water or food with me though there is a shop at the 10 mile point so I had the option of buying something.  I'd treated myself to MP3 download of Atom Heart Mother which I hadn't heard for yonks and topped up the ipod with a load more Pink Floyd to last me 3 hours.   First 5 miles were too fast but more down than up, through South Park, along Mespot etc. (which means nothing to non-Oxonians).   Managed to ease off a bit through University Parks and feeling pretty ropey climbing up to Old Headington.

Crossed under Greenroad Roundabout then climbed through the CS Lewis Nature Reserve and up the hill to Shotover.  Halfway and not feeling bad, the hill had put me back on pace.  A bloke at Shotover Plain looked decidedly like a marshal and I had a nasty feeling I was going to be that chump who finds himself running the opposite way to a race, fortunately the front runners appeared from the woods and took the other track.

Down the bridleway towards Wheatley,finding enough enthusiasm to jump the 3 horsey hurdles that were set up there.  A look over to the right to see the Windmill at the top of the hill I'd be climbing next.  Through Wheatley then very gently up the hill not bothering with the shop stop.  Some bloke ran past me but I doubt he was going the distance I was.  Up the track by the Windmill then back on tarmac to descend halfway through Littleworth, feeling well stuffed as I turned into Butts Lane, the final off road climb back up to Shotover hurt.

I diverted through Shotover as I thought there might be kids races along the course of the earlier XC race.  Checked my watch at 13.1 miles to find 2hr 15m, made me wonder how Teethgrinder was getting on.  Legs were too stuffed to enjoy the final descent much and I realised I was a bit under distance and would need to add a small loop.  I was hoping the lights would be green at the Bypass crossing so I'd be obliged to stop and wait but no such luck.  That horrible thought that a marathon is actually 11 miles further than this hit me as plodded along the home run.  My lower leg muscles really hurt, like someone had given them a good beating with a broom handle or something, but all me bones and joints seemed to be fine.  A drink of water followed by a recovery drink then I flopped in a chair while Jane massaged the pain away. Average 10:27 pace but not done the easy way.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 07, 2010, 03:36:35 pm

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.


You might like to read "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Born-Run-Ultra-running-Super-athlete-Tribe/dp/1861978235/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267974067&sr=8-2) (coming out in paperback next month).  He puts forward a very persuasive argument that humans are made to run, and that our bipedal approach gives us certain advantages over quadrupeds which allowed early man to be a very successful hunter and to range far and wide.  Expanding on this argument he goes on to show evidence that most runners can continue to function at the same sort of level with little relative decline into their sixties.  This cheered me up immensely!


I'll look out for that, I'm 47 and feel like I've only just started so could do with some good news  :thumbsup:

Ultra-running eh - now there's a thing.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 07, 2010, 04:58:38 pm
That was jolly good fun. :D
I couldn't start too fast even if I wanted to. Too many bloomin runners in the way.
So a nice plod down hill at the start running in a big bunch on a closed dual carriageway. I did have a good chuckle at a car that had gone off the road and hit a lamp post. :demon: ;D
I seemed to be passing lots of people and it was a bit of speeding up quite a bit to passa small bunch then settling down again, remembering not to go bonkers.
First mile came up in about 8 minutes, so I was on for a sub 2 hour. (9.23mins is 2 hour pace) That cheered me up. :)
It all seemed to go swimmingly. Legs hurt a bit after the first mile, but as I go into it they felt OK again.
I checked my watch at every milepost and doing the maths. I knew that I was well on schedule for a sub 2 hour which kept me in good spirits and made me think that I could have a little rest or take it easy for a bit if I felt like it and still be in with a good chance.
It was good fun though. Just running along in the sunshine. I was probably a bit erratic. Fast on descents compared to those around me. I tried to let myself go but it did get me breathing.
My cadence was slower than the 10k run a few weeks ago, but so was my pace.
At 10 miles, I definitely noticed that I wasn't going quite as well as I was at the start, but wasn't having a bad time and I don't think I slowed down noticeably.
I just hung in comfortably and ticked off the last few miles.
An uphill finish in the last mile, then the 500m mark. I didn't feel like going just yet. I let go with 250m to go, not that it would make any difference to my time, but just because...
Passed a few more on the last 250m giving it some welly to cross the line with 1:44:?? on the clock.
Luverly jubbly. :thumbsup:
Think I'll go do a marathon next.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 07, 2010, 05:04:48 pm
Think I'll go do a marathon next.
I'd give it a couple of days, if i were you.

Must put my feet up - i've just walked to the shops and back ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 07, 2010, 07:34:41 pm
That was jolly good fun. :D

Excellent result - up in the first 25%  :thumbsup:

Which marathon then?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on March 08, 2010, 08:24:30 am
You could do a lot worse than Loch Ness (http://www.lochnessmarathon.com/): scenic point to point race over closed or very quiet roads although the "rolling" terrain would mean a PB was out of the question.  A long way for many to travel, but worth it, IMHO
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 08, 2010, 02:41:59 pm
Well done TG, congrats.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on March 08, 2010, 04:14:58 pm
That was jolly good fun. :D

Passed a few more on the last 250m giving it some welly to cross the line with 1:44:?? on the clock.
Luverly jubbly. :thumbsup:
Think I'll go do a marathon next.

Well done. I could never bother about a marathon I have to say; it is hard enough to train for a fast half and getting in for a good marathon seemed a lot more difficult too. I would rather go run in the hills for something hard and long.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 08, 2010, 07:08:24 pm

Excellent result - up in the first 25%  :thumbsup:

Which marathon then?


Well, almost in the top 25%

I'm not sure which marathon. I think I'll do some more running first. I was glad to finish the half and I'm only doing it for fun.

The Loch Ness looks good, but I want to have one done before then. Plus it'll cost me a fair bit of time and money to get there. Something along those lines though.
I might even just cycle up to Snowdonia or the Peak District, take a map and just go running for a day.

I'll wait for my blister to heal and my legs to feel better first though.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 08, 2010, 09:25:06 pm

Excellent result - up in the first 25%  :thumbsup:

Which marathon then?


Well, almost in the top 25%

Sorry, I should know better than attempt mental arithmetic  :-[  Top 27% which is a lot better than I manage, I celebrate extravagantly if I'm in the first half.

I'm not sure which marathon. I think I'll do some more running first. I was glad to finish the half and I'm only doing it for fun.

Frenchie's got a point that it's a lot of bother preparing for a marathon, even a slow one which is the best I'll ever manage.  I quite like the structure of having a plan though and building up the long runs even if they do hurt.  On the other hand I quite like getting on my bike and riding out to run a cheap, local, village 10k and I'm going to have to sacrifice that for a bit.  I do hope I continue enjoying the training as I've gone and entered Abingdon Marathon as well as the Neolithic so looks like I'll have to double peak this year (double peak = 2 small hills in my case).

If you've not found them yet there are race calenders and reviews at Runners World (http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/default.asp?sp=&v=1) and at Fetch (http://www.fetcheveryone.com/)  (you have to sign up but don't have to pay).  Fetch is more a running community than a business and is also great for logging/planning training.

Roman Trail 10 miler at Chedworth for me in 2 weeks, loved it last year, friendly trail run with stream to splash through and a hill etc and 10 miles isn't very far at the moment.  Then the Compton 20 in April which is really hilly and I shall strugle round, it offers the option of switching to the 40 miler at the 19.5 mile point - I most definitely won't be doing that  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on March 08, 2010, 09:32:20 pm
I enjoy the marathon running experience but the training is a major turn-off for me.  And I like running, despite lurking on a cycling forum I run more miles per year than I ride (this year may be different, but because I'm riding a lot more in addition to my usual running).  All the long runs take up an enormous amount of time, not just the time doing them but the recovery afterwards.  Paradoxically, just going out and running on the hills for half a day seems far less onerous.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 08, 2010, 09:48:31 pm
I enjoy the marathon running experience but the training is a major turn-off for me.  And I like running, despite lurking on a cycling forum I run more miles per year than I ride (this year may be different, but because I'm riding a lot more in addition to my usual running).  All the long runs take up an enormous amount of time, not just the time doing them but the recovery afterwards.  Paradoxically, just going out and running on the hills for half a day seems far less onerous.

I think it makes quite a difference whether you are racing the marathon or just running it.  There seems to be an growing bunch of people just running marathons and ultras for the fun of it and not worrying about times much.  Sort of audax for runners.   Long Distance Walker Association events are apparently attracting increasing amounts of runners, the Neolithic Marathon makes a point on it's website about being a run and not a race (though you still get published times).  Still a long, long way for the likes of me though and if I'm honest about my one and only marathon to date that last few miles were neither a race nor fun!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 09, 2010, 10:04:22 am
I did a few LDWA events back in the day, really enjoyed them.  The walkers didn't seem to mind the runners, and the courses were demanding without being too brutal.  Nearly all off-road, mixture of track and open fell, so not the repetitive pounding you get with road marathons and runnable all the way.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 09, 2010, 10:07:59 am
I've got no excuse for not going for a run this afternoon. Remembered to bring everything I need and have no meetings to get in the way.

33 bloody minutes on a treadmill. Argh.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 09, 2010, 10:41:13 am
I've got no excuse for not going for a run this afternoon. Remembered to bring everything I need and have no meetings to get in the way.

33 bloody minutes on a treadmill. Argh.

but think how much better you will feel afterwards  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on March 09, 2010, 10:43:15 am
Well, I deferred my bike ride because the forecast was a bit crap.  And it's a glorious, cloudless sunny day.

A lunchtime run in the woods & hills beckons :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on March 09, 2010, 10:45:02 am
33 bloody minutes on a treadmill. Argh.

Is this the work gym?

If you're lucky, your treadmill overlooks the canteen where you can watch the tottie getting their lunch.

If you're unlucky, you'll be facing a blank wall, or worse still - an LCD TV showing corporate inspirational videos.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 09, 2010, 10:52:40 am
33 bloody minutes on a treadmill. Argh.

Is this the work gym?

If you're lucky, your treadmill overlooks the canteen where you can watch the tottie getting their lunch.

If you're unlucky, you'll be facing a blank wall, or worse still - an LCD TV showing corporate inspirational videos.

Blank wall. Someone took down the sign that said:-

PLEASE WIPE
DOWN MACHINE
AFTER USE

The work gym is a windowless room in the basement about 10m x 5m, without aircon (although that's getting put in at the end of this week along with new machines).

Tottie? This is IT!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 09, 2010, 12:16:28 pm
I enjoy the marathon running experience but the training is a major turn-off for me.  And I like running, despite lurking on a cycling forum I run more miles per year than I ride (this year may be different, but because I'm riding a lot more in addition to my usual running).  All the long runs take up an enormous amount of time, not just the time doing them but the recovery afterwards.  Paradoxically, just going out and running on the hills for half a day seems far less onerous.

I think it makes quite a difference whether you are racing the marathon or just running it.  There seems to be an growing bunch of people just running marathons and ultras for the fun of it and not worrying about times much.  Sort of audax for runners.
<thinks ... > I've read a lot about marathon training. And I consider myself "above beginner" in the theory of 30hr+ bike rides. So inevitably I find myself joining the two together ...
There is no way that you need to ride further than a 100km as "training" for a 200km - you just need lots of training miles, then pace yourself on the day. Thousands of people have demonstrated this.

So I'm wondering whether, for those just wanting to finish a marathon, are those 16-20 mile Long Runs really necessary? Maybe you can do all the training on evenings and Sunday mornings, just like cyclists?


Of course there are differences between the 2 disciplines:
- runners often falter due to joint damage, which isn't (such) a big issue on the bike. (it's all about impact)
- I'm talking about longer duration events on the bike. Very few people could do a 24h continuous run.

Hmmm...
[There is no doubt that I am influenced by Mr Izzard's recent exploits, and we know how 1 anecdote != data ...]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 09, 2010, 12:22:49 pm
So I'm wondering whether, for those just wanting to finish a marathon, are those 16-20 mile Long Runs really necessary? Maybe you can do all the training on evenings and Sunday mornings, just like cyclists?

There's more than one marathon training plan that has you running no further than a half marathon during your training.

As you say, if you can run 13 miles and not feel broken afterwards then you should be able to finish a marathon even if it meets stumbling over the line with poo dribbling down your legs.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 09, 2010, 12:27:40 pm
As you say, if you can run 13 miles and not feel broken afterwards then you should be able to finish a marathon even if it meets stumbling over the line with poo dribbling down your legs.
I think I remember your first 200k ...                    ;)

Quick google comes up with

The ‘Get You Round’ schedule

A beginner’s programme, mixing some walking with running, over 4-5 days a week.

The idea here is to get you fit enough to make it round the course, regardless of speed, so there’ll be very little fast work. You need to build up endurance and the schedule will help you to cut down on body weight.

   RW&rsquo;s Basic Marathon Schedules: Get You Round &ndash; Racing &ndash; Runner's World
 (http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/racing/rws-basic-marathon-schedules-get-you-round/108.html)
Longest run:
16-18M endurance run, taking drinks, walking 5 mins in every hour

---------------
EDIT: This is more like it! Suggests that 2_1/2 hours training run will get you to the finish of a 4:30 marathon run:
Marathon Training: Shorten the Long Run | Active.com (http://www.active.com/running/Articles/Marathon-Training--Shorten-the-Long-Run.htm)

I'm struggling to find any science for the benefits of training runs beyond 2 hours.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 09, 2010, 01:34:02 pm
As you say, if you can run 13 miles and not feel broken afterwards then you should be able to finish a marathon even if it meets stumbling over the line with poo dribbling down your legs.
Longest run:
16-18M endurance run, taking drinks, walking 5 mins in every hour

A lot of schedules say a maximum of 20 mile long runs and even that you do more damage than good exceeding 20 so 18 miles should do - 13 miles sounds a bit ambitious though.

I think it's different from cycling, the body tends to give way rather than the soul.  I've seen runners not just unable to continue but unable to move due to cramps/injury, it's not just a case of give up and get on the train.  Lots of St John's Ambulance presence at running races.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 09, 2010, 01:37:24 pm
True, true, but then that's the problem comparing apples and oranges like I did.

Lots of St John's Ambulance presence at running races.

Don't they get a lot of stick from the real St John Ambulance people trading on a misspelling of their name? ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 09, 2010, 03:32:40 pm
True, true, but then that's the problem comparing apples and oranges like I did.

Lots of St John's Ambulance presence at running races.

Don't they get a lot of stick from the real St John Ambulance people trading on a misspelling of their name? ;)

Oh and there was I thinking they belonged to St John!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 09, 2010, 05:29:59 pm
Right. 33 minute run done at a slight incline (see posts passim) and 10.5kph.

*waits for GTC to fire up*

Avg 180bpm, Max HR 191bpm. Bleurgh.

It will be helpful when the aircon is put in, and/or they give us a new fan (current one is broken). Running in warm still air is utterly horrible. I'm hoping it's a revelation when I start to run in to work. Not least something other than a blank wall to stare at (looking forward to running through Parsons Green especially).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 09, 2010, 07:36:42 pm
Frenchie's got a point that it's a lot of bother preparing for a marathon, even a slow one which is the best I'll ever manage. 

I reckon I could do a marathon now. I might just get under 4 hours. But I'd probably suffer on it and I don't really want to if I can help it.
I am one of the Audax style runners who just wants to do the distance. I'd rather do a scenic ultra distance run than a fast marathon. I did want to go under 2 hours for the half because I think it's a benchmark for a layman runner. If I do a normal road marathon then I'll definitely be trying to get under 4 hours. I thinkI could get under 3 if I trained properly, but I'm a cyclist and my aim for the year is the Miglia Italia 1000 mile ride in the Italian mountains on my fixer. Running is just a side show for me and will take second place.
Talking to Hummers about the Long Distance Walking Association was one of the big inspirations for me getting into this. I might have a go at one/some of their 100 milers one day. Not this year, I'd have to compromise my cycling to get in condition for one of those, but if and when I think I can hack it, I'll probably give it a go one day and hope to run or jog around rather than walk, if I'm capable.


Quote
If you've not found them yet there are race calenders and reviews at Runners World (http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/default.asp?sp=&v=1) and at Fetch (http://www.fetcheveryone.com/)  (you have to sign up but don't have to pay).  Fetch is more a running community than a business and is also great for logging/planning training.


Cheers. I'll have a look at those. Cycling will move to the fore now though. I need to get some miles in and get a bit fitter. I hope to use running to compliment my cycling. I might try and sneak a crafty marathon in the spring or summer, but special running events will be on hold now untill the cycling eases off in the autumn. My aim in running now is to up my regular running distance to get myself fit enough to do a comfortable sub 4 hour marathon or a fun little ultra marathon in preperation for the biggest event I think I can manage in the autumn.

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Roman Trail 10 miler at Chedworth for me in 2 weeks, loved it last year, friendly trail run with stream to splash through and a hill etc and 10 miles isn't very far at the moment.  Then the Compton 20 in April which is really hilly and I shall strugle round, it offers the option of switching to the 40 miler at the 19.5 mile point - I most definitely won't be doing that  :facepalm:

40 miles! Now you're talking. :thumbsup:
But allthough I might be able to get around it, it would take me some doing. I'll aim for a marathon next. One step at a time, it's only for fun.


My training has only comprised of doing 3 miles twice a week. Tuesdays, run a mile and a half, stop for an hour, then run home. Same on Thursdays. I did do about 2 and a half miles a few times. Sometimes I had 3kg on each ankle and my steel toecapped boots. That, and the 10k fun run was all I did.
I intend to increase the distance of my regular runs now. I think that a little bit every day is better than one big effort every now and then.
Besides, I wont do it if I stop enjoying it. I'd never use a treadmill. I go outside and put my radio or MP3 on. Milton Keynes is great for running too. Lots of parks, streams and lakes to run through/along/around on the Redways and miles of paths. Quite a few nice laydees running about too :D (Probably running away from me!)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 09, 2010, 09:24:33 pm

I reckon I could do a marathon now.


After doing that well in the MK Half on that tiny bit of training I wouldn't be that surprised if you went and ran a flattish marathon straight off treating MK as sufficient training.  Probably without the help of St John or the poo down the leg and proving whatever I just said up there ^ totally wrong.  You're a lot fitter and stronger than some of us here though so don't go setting us a bad example  ;)

I'm enjoying getting my monthly 200 in at the moment, I'm treating it as my rest week in my run training plan which seems to work.  I may ride a 300 but nothing longer than that this year, like you say you have to choose or compromise both sports (or work on the swimming and do an Ironman).


Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 09, 2010, 10:56:05 pm
or work on the swimming and do an Ironman.

I once had a very good triathlete talk to me about me doing an Ironman about 15 years ago.

It's mostly the swimming that puts me off.
a) I'm awful at swimming. In 1997 I tried to swim a length. I was very fit that year and cycling for several hundred miles a weekend was normal. I failed my first attempt because I stopped on the way. My second attempt was successfull. 20 minutes later my breathing was back to normal. Then I got told off advised by the lifegaurd not to go in the deep end.
I fell over in the sea when I was 5. If my dad never ran into the sea, swam after me and pulled me out I'd probably have died, I can certainly remember a lot of gasps and shocked faces as my dad carried me back to my mum. I've always been scared of water that is deeper than I can stand up in since then and doing my length was as much about overcoming fear as it was about swimming. I did stay at the side of the pool so I could grab the rail if I got too scared or tired, so I was very happy that I managed a length without touching the side. I think fear helped a bit though.
I started swimming in about 2001 and built myself up to doing 7 consecutive lengths in my local pool where I could stay in the shallow end for the whole length, but I found it a bit tedious. My swimming technique is very poor and I really am not motivated to improve on it.
b) I hear that triathlons are quite expensive compared to cycling and I'm a peasant who isn't keen on having little money for the important things (like cycling), so tries not to spend it on less important flights of fancy.

If I was going to do a triathlon, it would be an Ironman and nothing less shorter. Ultra distance is for me, it's just how I am.


Quote
I'm enjoying getting my monthly 200 in at the moment

My longest ride so far this year is about 90 miles. ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 15, 2010, 06:27:48 am
Interesting thread this.

I have made a very tentative step back into running, not for anything other than enjoyment, and have noted some Hummers related points:

1) I really miss running  - just didn't realise how much
2) Those muscles in the bits of my legs beneath the knee? You need them to be quite strong for running up hills and after 6 non-running years, mine are not strong any more
3) I am nowhere near as fit as I thought I was. You have to be fit for cross-country running over the Downs
4) The issue that started to develop on my right knee at the end of 2009 has eased up since I began running suggesting a cycling related muscle imbalance
5) My back is still borked and road running shakes the crap out of me

Watch this space as I have bought some trail related running shoes and intend to get back into this again.

Noting Teethgrinders comments about ultra-distance walking events, the LDWA run a series of such challenges, one such event being the yearly 100 miler which is held in a different part of the country every year. This year's is in Scotland (http://www.ldwa.org.uk/news/news_story.php?news_id=296).

Think of these as the Audax of the walking world (although technically a race) where you have 48 hours to cover 100 (quite often) hilly miles. I did the Dartmoor 100 in 1984 and from experience, that is where the comparison ends with Audax as these events are far tougher - physically and mentally - than any Audax event I have done. You really are out in the elements; there are no petrol stations or convenience stores to top up your bonk rations or provide shelter from the weather. Mind you, I was very fit then; jogged the first 25 miles in 5 hours and I got around the whole thing in a sleepless 33 hours and 20 minutes. The fastest participant got around in just over 20 hours. A bit broken at the end, I vowed never to do one of those again and have no desire to reverse that decision.

Someone who is still active in this field is Mr Arthur Vince (of Primrose Path fame) who runs this sort of event as well as taking part in them.

H
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 15, 2010, 09:20:58 am
The first I heard about LDWA 100 milers was from a few years ago from AUK Doug Aspinall.  At first he made it sound like a fun challenge but then he told me the bit about toenails turning black and falling off so I though I'd give it a miss   :sick:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 15, 2010, 12:41:33 pm
I recently browsed what seemed a good book about doing a 100-miler, but it was about £15, which put me off! The bits I read were VERY Audaxy (the author was far more walker than runner - bit like my Audax-style)

[google-fu fails me ... ]

Hummers, if you were a less sensitive petal, I would ask a slightly personal question at this point:
Were you a lot ... lighter in your running glory days?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 15, 2010, 06:51:27 pm
Think of these as the Audax of the walking world (although technically a race) where you have 48 hours to cover 100 (quite often) hilly miles. I did the Dartmoor 100 in 1984 and from experience, that is where the comparison ends with Audax as these events are far tougher - physically and mentally - than any Audax event I have done.

I think they would be the same as any Audax event if they were done along surfaced roads. But I think they are probably more like doing Audax distance rides on a mountain bike and off road. If you've ever been mountain biking you'll know how much harder it is to do the miles off road and usually with much more climbing.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 15, 2010, 07:00:45 pm
... and that's before you take into account that running is generally slower than cycling too. :P

(If such an event was mostly on tarmac, I'd want my money back - I don't go walking for fun on roads.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 15, 2010, 07:36:45 pm
36min on the treadmill tomorrow. Bag packed so I can't forget anything (like shorts that fit or change of clothes). Ugh.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on March 15, 2010, 11:37:41 pm
Inspired by Mr Izzard and devastated by recent poor performance on the bike, pro-tem I've switched to running to regain an exercise habit whilst I'm waiting for the weather to warm up. I'm not planning to run a Marathon every day for a month though, just my local 11km circuit, basically up and down the riverbanks between Chiswick and Hammersmith Bridges, and home. First time out was well over 1:30, now circa 1:15. I'll be happy to get it under an hour.

11km is more or less the same distance of the outer path of Richmond Park, four laps of which is a smidgeon more than a Marathon. I might have a crack at that in the summer. We shall see.

Currently on day 17 out of 17.

23/03 Chiswick to Putney today (16km). Still pretty slow.
21/03 Last two outings as single laps of Richmond Park. Starting to feel like I'm moving from shuffle to jog mode.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 16, 2010, 11:02:12 am
Inspired by Mr Izzard and devastated by recent poor performance on the bike, pro-tem I've switched to running to regain an exercise habit whilst I'm waiting for the weather to warm up. I'm not planning to run a Marathon every day for a month though, just my local 11km circuit, basically up and down the riverbanks between Chiswick and Hammersmith Bridge, and home. First time out was well over 1:30, now circa 1:15. I'll be happy to get it under an hour.

11km is more or less the distance of the outer path of Richmond Park, four laps of which is a smidgeon over the Marathon distance. I might have a crack at that in the summer. We shall see.

Currently on day 6 out of 6.

You might find, as I have, that running around a lot doesn't help the bike performance one iota. 

What it does do is provide the convenient justification "Well I've been mostly concentrating on my running lately" as you slide off the back of the bunch  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 16, 2010, 11:14:24 am
Quote from: mattc link=topic=58.msg571576#msg571576
Hummers, if you were a less sensitive petal, I would ask a slightly personal question at this point:
Were you a lot ... lighter in your running glory days?

4st lighter and 26 years younger.

I have a picture somewhere that begs the question "where did that young man go". Someone rather wittily once pointed out "you ate him, Hummers".

On saying that, through my last running foray I managed to get down to just over 14st for the Great Traverse of the Cuillin in one hit back in 1999. This is another mental and physical feat that for me, will not be repeated.

I think they would be the same as any Audax event if they were done along surfaced roads. But I think they are probably more like doing Audax distance rides on a mountain bike and off road. If you've ever been mountain biking you'll know how much harder it is to do the miles off road and usually with much more climbing.

I guess you'll have to find that out for yourself.

All I know is that there is no freewheel for your legs when you are on foot and whilst I am sure you are right about covering Audax distances off road being harder, the Dartmoor 100 was very physically punishing. I could hardly walk at all the day after and it was over a week before I could walk properly again - despite being a very fit and regularly used to covering distances of 50 miles over rough terrain in around or under 12 hours.

Then again, as with all things, the first of anything is either the first of many or the first and last. My mate Tom took almost the whole 48 hours to complete the same event but went on to do over 10 consecutive 100s, some harder than the Dartmoor 100 by quite a margin (Snowdonia 100 - 30000ft of ascent). In the end, he didn't bother to train for them because running, walking and cycling everywhere became a pivotal part of his life so 'training' meant nothing. He stopped the 100s in the end after a series of injuries led to him questioning why he was doing them - and not liking the answers.

I am very happy with the Audax stuff now as it offers a reasonable challenge, is more sociable, keeps me fit and I get to see some great countryside without killing or injuring myself in the process.

H
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on March 16, 2010, 11:27:01 am
You might find, as I have, that running around a lot doesn't help the bike performance one iota. 

Aye, save for one angle: running is great for weight loss, and being lighter is great on the bike.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 16, 2010, 11:57:42 am
Noting Teethgrinders comments about ultra-distance walking events, the LDWA run a series of such challenges, one such event being the yearly 100 miler which is held in a different part of the country every year. This year's is in Scotland (http://www.ldwa.org.uk/news/news_story.php?news_id=296).

... which sold out all 530 places in February.

So it's about as popular as Audax (i.e. if you make a very rough comparison to 600+ entries). Nutters ...

Found the Julie Welch 100-miler book:

         Long-distance walking: Iron in the soles -
            Features, Health & Families - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/longdistance-walking-iron-in-the-soles-1805596.html)
It's £17 !
(via the LDWA site. Which is bloody annoying on a small screen - reminds me why I like aukweb.net ! Oh, and the Audax calendar is much better. )
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 16, 2010, 12:22:16 pm
... and being lighter is great on the bike.

Yes and no: quicker going up, slower going down.

Not much difference on flat/rolling countryside though.

Other than your shorts fit you better.

H
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on March 16, 2010, 09:14:44 pm
Noting Teethgrinders comments about ultra-distance walking events, the LDWA run a series of such challenges, one such event being the yearly 100 miler which is held in a different part of the country every year. This year's is in Scotland (http://www.ldwa.org.uk/news/news_story.php?news_id=296).

... which sold out all 530 places in February.

So it's about as popular as Audax (i.e. if you make a very rough comparison to 600+ entries). Nutters ...

Found the Julie Welch 100-miler book:

         Long-distance walking: Iron in the soles -
            Features, Health & Families - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/longdistance-walking-iron-in-the-soles-1805596.html)
It's £17 !
(via the LDWA site. Which is bloody annoying on a small screen - reminds me why I like aukweb.net ! Oh, and the Audax calendar is much better. )

Donchajustlove the comments. I was a bit shocked myself...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 16, 2010, 10:28:04 pm
I think they would be the same as any Audax event if they were done along surfaced roads. But I think they are probably more like doing Audax distance rides on a mountain bike and off road. If you've ever been mountain biking you'll know how much harder it is to do the miles off road and usually with much more climbing.

I guess you'll have to find that out for yourself.

All I know is that there is no freewheel for your legs when you are on foot and whilst I am sure you are right about covering Audax distances off road being harder,

Riding a mountain bike, even on the road is tough going. I cycled to Dolgellau in 2006 on my mountain bike on a Bank Holiday weekend, to meet a friend to go mountain biking at Coed-y-Brenin. It was about 170 miles which would have been an easy 10-12 hour ride on the road bike. It was a long slog on the mountain bike and I was still very tired from it the day after when I was riding with my friend, but because my friend had his girlfriend with him and she was riding with us I didn't need to be fresh, but I still had to spend a while in the cafe reviving myself while they rode one of the shorter trails.
Then I cycled home on the Monday. I realised that it would have been faster and much easier for me to ride up on the road bike and just walk around the mountain bike trails, then ride home again.
Add to that that off roading is harder still than road riding because of the rough surfaces and extra hilliness. I know that I'd not find it easy to cycle 600km in a weekend off road. Even just a 100 mile ride without much climbing is quite a tough day on the mountain bike when I'm fit.

But yes, I'll have to suck it and see. I'm not sure I'll be able to manage a 100 miler this year though.


Quote
My mate Tom took almost the whole 48 hours to complete the same event but went on to do over 10 consecutive 100s, some harder than the Dartmoor 100 by quite a margin (Snowdonia 100 - 30000ft of ascent). In the end, he didn't bother to train for them because running, walking and cycling everywhere became a pivotal part of his life so 'training' meant nothing. He stopped the 100s in the end after a series of injuries led to him questioning why he was doing them - and not liking the answers.

That's the thing. It's what I tried to do in 2007. Just start easy early in the year and get myself doing the distance and naturally get fitter. The toughest rides, or at lest, the ones that hurt the most were the ones from January to March. I was increasing the distance of the rides then, I wasn't up to speed and the weather was usually very tough. Lots of strong headwinds and often into driving rain and dark for most of the rides. I remember reading about people struggling to ride into those winds for 100k where I was riding into them for 400. But once the weather improved (a bit, it was a pretty crap year for weather) and I recovered, it just became business as usual. This meant that I could recover more and get even stronger so that I was doing mega miles and still sometimes in bad conditions, but much more easily. These rides I was doing mid-summer quite comfartably would have been impossible for me in the early season.

It's sort of why I'm giving this a go too. You say you're not anything like as fit as you used to be, but you were going very well on Porkers and Brimstone last year. You can get up the hills fast for a big chap!
I'm wondering whether it's that you are a lot fitter than you think you are because you've just got into the swing of things or if this long distance walking really is all that tough. (I reckon that walking or running is much tougher than cycling because of the impact issues, but fitness wise about the same. If anyone tells me that travelling by foot needs more cardio fitness than cycling then I'll tell them to cycle faster.) After my half marathon (even if it was a very fast course) I'm starting to think it is the former.
But I want to find out for myself and it's something that appeals to me, so I'll give it a proper go. I wont suffer for doing it. If I stop enjoying it or start getting too damaged from it, then I'll stop. It's just a side show to my cycling which will always come first.



Quote
I am very happy with the Audax stuff now as it offers a reasonable challenge, is more sociable, keeps me fit and I get to see some great countryside without killing or injuring myself in the process.

That's good, but be carefull, you can do too much of that Audax game. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 16, 2010, 11:38:50 pm
But yes, I'll have to suck it and see. I'm not sure I'll be able to manage a 100 miler this year though.

I have seen what you are capable of Mr Teethgrinder and have no doubt that you have the mettle to do this sort of event and will enjoy it immensely.

Best to get the inside track for 2011 as places go quickly and I think you still have to complete a recognised long distance event over 50 miles (in one hit) to be qualify for entry. I suggest you make contact with Arthur Vince on this score as I expect he's up on this stuff.

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You say you're not anything like as fit as you used to be, but you were going very well on Porkers and Brimstone last year. You can get up the hills fast for a big chap!

OK, you asked for it:

Climbing and fell running Hummers of yesteryear (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d96/HummersOriginal/hummersphone-1.jpg)

vs

Cycling Hummers (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d96/HummersOriginal/Titanic.jpg)
 
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But I want to find out for myself and it's something that appeals to me, so I'll give it a proper go. I wont suffer for doing it. If I stop enjoying it or start getting too damaged from it, then I'll stop. It's just a side show to my cycling which will always come first.


That is what they all say.......  :demon:

H
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 16, 2010, 11:58:23 pm

OK, you asked for it:

Climbing and fell running Hummers of yesteryear (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d96/HummersOriginal/hummersphone-1.jpg)

vs

Cycling Hummers (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d96/HummersOriginal/Titanic.jpg)
 

All I can tell from those photos is that you've got a belly and you wear even less clothing now. Probably a bit more hairy too.


Quote
Best to get the inside track for 2011 as places go quickly and I think you still have to complete a recognised long distance event over 50 miles (in one hit) to be qualify for entry. I suggest you make contact with Arthur Vince on this score as I expect he's up on this stuff.

That sounds like a plan. I reckon I could manage a 50 miler if I get my arse in gear and if I liked it I could go for the 100. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 17, 2010, 09:02:19 am
Here is a classic event that might still be open for entries this year:

Dorset Doddle (http://www.btinternet.com/~hardy.annual/doddle.htm)

The fact that it is in Dorset, is referred to as a 'Doddle'  and follows the undulations of the coast should give you an idea what to expect.  :demon:

I have not done the event itself but used the route for training and for many years "the Dorset training day" would appear ominously in the calendar around Easter.

H
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 17, 2010, 01:23:06 pm
Here is a classic event that might still be open for entries this year:

Dorset Doddle (http://www.btinternet.com/~hardy.annual/doddle.htm)

The fact that it is in Dorset, is referred to as a 'Doddle'  and follows the undulations of the coast should give you an idea what to expect.  :demon:

I have not done the event itself but used the route for training and for many years "the Dorset training day" would appear ominously in the calendar around Easter.

H
I remember reading about this one last year in Anna Finn's blog (http://annakatfinn.blogspot.com/2009/08/dorset-doddle.html), she gives the impression late entries may well be possible.  I'm definitely not going to attempt this this year

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: geraldc on March 17, 2010, 02:01:24 pm
I've got a month to the Brighton Marathon. It's going to prove interesting.  Not looking for a fast time, just looking to finish.

I'm loving my GPS/HRM Decathlon Keymaze 700, it makes running far more interesting. Downloading the route into googlemaps, and then looking at my heart rate shoot off at the slightest exertion is fascinating.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 17, 2010, 04:41:26 pm
36min on the treadmill tomorrow. Bag packed so I can't forget anything (like shorts that fit or change of clothes). Ugh.

Too busy yesterday but found time today. Least horrible I've felt so far, probably something to do with the new fan blowing cold air on my back the entire time and nice new equipment in the gym.

36 minutes at 6.6mph. HRavg of 178bpm and max at 186bpm. Much nicer.

Bumped into someone in the gym and got chatting about doing a marathon. Whilst warming up he was talking about entering one next year as he's finding running quite easy, he thinks he can do a 3.5 hour marathon (impressive as he didn't look in the best shape).

All was explained when he'd finished his warm up (I was already running by this point) and I watched as he slowly increased the speed towards 8mph and looked panicked. The old machines worked in kph. His easy 3h30 marathon was now a 3h30 nightmare or a 5h15m slog. He lasted 3 minutes at 8mph before stopping and mumbling something about "probably not over this cold I've had".

*snigger*
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on March 17, 2010, 05:33:54 pm
This morning's run to work. It is easy to spot the gradient changes.
Click image for notes. Spot the steps to the observatory!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4060/4441302344_d07f56dc90_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmam/4441302344/)

red lines are zone 4 boundaries.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 17, 2010, 07:43:41 pm
Here is a classic event that might still be open for entries this year:

Dorset Doddle (http://www.btinternet.com/~hardy.annual/doddle.htm)

The fact that it is in Dorset, is referred to as a 'Doddle'  and follows the undulations of the coast should give you an idea what to expect.  :demon:

I have not done the event itself but used the route for training and for many years "the Dorset training day" would appear ominously in the calendar around Easter.

H

If I wasn't in Italy, then that would be a good one for me to try.
I've ridden enough Wessex Audax to know that the Dorset Coast isn't a doddle.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 18, 2010, 12:39:06 am
LDWA events calendar here (http://www.ldwa.org.uk/challenge_events/events_list.php?list_option=N&list_type=F).

There is always the Dartmoor Oerambulation,

H


Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on March 18, 2010, 10:48:21 am
Actually those LDWA events look interesting, though there's precious few in Scotland.  The Lochalsh 30 Dirty Challenge (nearest to me) looks quite attractive, if expensive by hill running standards.

What are participants' views of runners?  I'd prefer to run rather than walk because I'm an impatient kind of guy   ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 18, 2010, 11:04:38 am
those LDWA events look  expensive
There's always one!            ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 18, 2010, 01:10:47 pm
My limited experience of LDWA events is that runners are usually a not large proportion of teh total entry and are well tolerated - some LDWA stalwarts are runners.

Usually a good indication if they have a separate start time for runners.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 18, 2010, 03:17:47 pm
I seem to be on some kind of exercise rollercoaster this year. Today's run:
Good news - 36min* running time (+some walking), no pain in muscles, joints or tendons
Bad news - I have my first running blister ever!

I could feel this coming on shorter runs this year, but I hoped the flesh was simply toughening up. My guess is that the new NB shoes are not exactly the same shape as the model they replace. This - combined with front-foot landings - has rubbed the skin on the inner edge of the ball. They do feel kinda tight in that area, right foot only.

I think I'll try my old shoes for a while, and get some new socks to replace the thread-bare pair. Maybe try some non-ortho insoles.

(What's the best short-term treatment for blisters?!?)

*Probably a PB for 2 years. I think.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 18, 2010, 06:08:22 pm
I seem to be on some kind of exercise rollercoaster this year. Today's run:
Good news - 36min* running time (+some walking), no pain in muscles, joints or tendons
Bad news - I have my first running blister ever!

I could feel this coming on shorter runs this year, but I hoped the flesh was simply toughening up. My guess is that the new NB shoes are not exactly the same shape as the model they replace. This - combined with front-foot landings - has rubbed the skin on the inner edge of the ball. They do feel kinda tight in that area, right foot only.

I think I'll try my old shoes for a while, and get some new socks to replace the thread-bare pair. Maybe try some non-ortho insoles.

(What's the best short-term treatment for blisters?!?)

*Probably a PB for 2 years. I think.
Well done!  36min can't be far off 5k.  Free entry 5k event every Saturday in Reading (http://www.parkrun.org.uk/reading/) I see, ride to the start makes a good warm-up  :thumbsup:

I find it helps to alternate old and new shoes for a while till the old ones are truly dead and the new feel comfy.  If they feel tight shouldn't you just loosen the laces near the toe a bit?

Many committed runners own several pairs of socks and stop wearing the old ones well before their toes poke out the end  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 18, 2010, 06:37:34 pm
LDWA events calendar here (http://www.ldwa.org.uk/challenge_events/events_list.php?list_option=N&list_type=F).

There is always the Dartmoor Oerambulation,

H



This one looks suitably gnarly and something I might be able to build up to (http://www.ldwa.org.uk/challenge_events/show_event.php?list_option=D&list_type=F&event_id=6427)

I never noticed the Dartmoor event allthough I never looked closely.
The one I linked to, I can probably get to and from with just one train and within 2 hours. Dartmoor would need a lot of travel time to and from the event.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 18, 2010, 07:27:37 pm
I never noticed the Dartmoor event allthough I never looked closely.
The one I linked to, I can probably get to and from with just one train and within 2 hours. Dartmoor would need a lot of travel time to and from the event.

Sorry, I meant the Dartmoor Perambulation (http://www.ian.kirkpatrick2.btinternet.co.uk/page3.htm) and it is not an LDWA event - think of it more as a perm.

A cracking walk nonetheless and it is worth meeting the person who set this up, Ian Kirkpatrick*, who is quite a character.

H

*Mention my name to Mrs Kirkpatrick at your peril.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on March 19, 2010, 11:07:20 pm
Here is a classic event that might still be open for entries this year:

Dorset Doddle (http://www.btinternet.com/~hardy.annual/doddle.htm)

The fact that it is in Dorset, is referred to as a 'Doddle'  and follows the undulations of the coast should give you an idea what to expect.  :demon:

I have not done the event itself but used the route for training and for many years "the Dorset training day" would appear ominously in the calendar around Easter.

H

Still open for entries. Apparently.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on March 20, 2010, 08:22:14 pm
And you're welcome to it.

Took the fivefingers onto the treadmill for the first time today, to practice speedwork.  All of a sudden the whole "increase cadence, shorten stride" thing -- and the move from a long forward stride component and lots of thigh power to a much shorter forward component and more butt power -- started to come together. 

Because legs aren't over-extending to near lock, it's knee-benign too. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 20, 2010, 08:43:24 pm
And you're welcome to it.

Took the fivefingers onto the treadmill for the first time today, to practice speedwork.  All of a sudden the whole "increase cadence, shorten stride" thing -- and the move from a long forward stride component and lots of thigh power to a much shorter forward component and more butt power -- started to come together. 

Because legs aren't over-extending to near lock, it's knee-benign too. :thumbsup:

And you're welcome to the treadmill. :P :D

The reason I only take little strides is because I don't have strong running legs that can handle giant steps (with apologies to Sting)
Big strides are for the strong and fast runners doing up to marathon distance, I would guess.
But for ultra distance, or weaklings like me, then the technique becomes closer to walking, which is probably a good way of describing my running; walking fast forward with a bit of a bounce.
Probably much better for a heavy dude too. I reckon you'll feel more comfortable if it is for you, so I'll leave you to be the judge.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 20, 2010, 08:47:46 pm
Sorry, I meant the Dartmoor Perambulation (http://www.ian.kirkpatrick2.btinternet.co.uk/page3.htm) and it is not an LDWA event - think of it more as a perm.

A cracking walk nonetheless and it is worth meeting the person who set this up, Ian Kirkpatrick*, who is quite a character.

H

*Mention my name to Mrs Kirkpatrick at your peril.


Now that does look mighty tempting.
I see that some geezer called Mark Hummerstone was the 4th person to complete this. Anyone you know I wonder?
It doesn't seem to say how far it is. If there's no time limit, then that could be a goer for me. I like the "permanent" style of it, so I can do it when it's best for me.
Think I'll need to research before I run though, I think this is something that needs respect. Especially from a numpty like me.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 20, 2010, 10:52:20 pm
It's 48 miles and you can take as long as you like.

I've taken 5 days to do it and I've also done it in just over 12 hours.

I think the record is 10 hours but he ran the whole thing.

H
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 21, 2010, 02:52:18 pm
I ran the Roman Trail 10 miler today.  A beautiful day and great organisation but I was crap.  I hoped for 1:25 and got nearer 1:35, it's hillier than I remember but I was at least 5 mins faster last year  ???

My legs feel like they've hardly been used so I guess it was lack of of energy holding me back.  Maybe it's because I've had a bit of a cold or maybe because I ran out of beer last night and had to drink red wine instead.

Still I enjoyed squelching through all that mud and splashing through the River Coln  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on March 21, 2010, 09:21:37 pm
And you're welcome to it.

I think I'm going to go I've gone for it. £6 entry for non LDWA plus £6 for the coach from Swanage to Weymouth in the morning. (The Doddle is from Weymouth to Swanage). Vague plan to ride down from London on Saturday, camp or stay at the Swanage YHA, run round (ha!) then train home Sunday evening. TBD.

Took the fivefingers onto the treadmill for the first time today, to practice speedwork.  All of a sudden the whole "increase cadence, shorten stride" thing -- and the move from a long forward stride component and lots of thigh power to a much shorter forward component and more butt power -- started to come together.  

Because legs aren't over-extending to near lock, it's knee-benign too. :thumbsup:

Running in Richmond Park today, I was overtaken by a chap running barefoot. He was mainly on the grass though he spent some time on the path which alternates between sandy gravel and sand & pointy stones.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 22, 2010, 05:55:03 pm
And you're welcome to it.

I think I'm going to go I've gone for it. £6 entry for non LDWA plus £6 for the coach from Swanage to Weymouth in the morning. (The Doddle is from Weymouth to Swanage). Vague plan to ride down from London on Saturday, camp or stay at the Swanage YHA, run round (ha!) then train home Sunday evening. TBD.

You are a very brave man or something like that  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 23, 2010, 03:36:16 pm

I think I'm going to go I've gone for it. £6 entry for non LDWA plus £6 for the coach from Swanage to Weymouth in the morning. (The Doddle is from Weymouth to Swanage). Vague plan to ride down from London on Saturday, camp or stay at the Swanage YHA, run round (ha!) then train home Sunday evening. TBD.

That will indeed be a quality weekend. There is a time limit of 12 hrs to get round the event which on the face of it, sounds very generous but then again, as the views become more spectacular in the last half, you may need to pause a while to take them all in.  ;)

Looking at the website, the fastest time last year was 5 hrs 24 mins so you have a target, dear boy.  :thumbsup:

It occurs to me that I am on holiday that week but back in the UK on the 18th......

H
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on March 30, 2010, 10:30:52 am
.... and I now have a pass to enter this event.

H
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 30, 2010, 10:32:33 am
Oh dear, Tuesday isn't it. That means the running machine this afternoon. 40 minutes. Hohum.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on March 30, 2010, 10:47:07 am
.... and I now have a pass to enter this event.

Oh dear, what I done?!?!?!?

After 17 days on the trot (so to speak) I've missed a couple of days as I developed a sore heel, caused, I suspect, by lack of stretching. My calves were getting tight to the extent I was walking down stairs sideways first thing in the morning. I poppped down to the local Sweatshop for some advice on Saturday but the only thing the young chap who served me could suggest was to buy some new shoes which as they are a shoeshop was probably not unreasonable but I didn't feel like dropping £85 just then so I didn't. I'll see how things go from hereon. Apart from anything else I need to start alternating running with some cycling if I'm going to do some audax events this year.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: tonyh on March 30, 2010, 01:55:53 pm
£85

You could try some Sorbothane heelpads (or similar) for about £8 (rather a lot).
(They didn't get me back into running, but I think they have eased Achilles problems, long term.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on March 30, 2010, 02:54:21 pm
Blurgh.

9 minutes of my HR being 190bpm is all I can handle. Must have the remnants of a cold. Only managed 26 minutes. Will do another 15 minutes tomorrow to top myself up, also playing 5-a-side on Thursday.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 31, 2010, 07:52:45 am

Oh dear, what I done?!?!?!?

After 17 days on the trot (so to speak) I've missed a couple of days as I developed a sore heel, caused, I suspect, by lack of stretching. My calves were getting tight to the extent I was walking down stairs sideways first thing in the morning. I poppped down to the local Sweatshop for some advice on Saturday but the only thing the young chap who served me could suggest was to buy some new shoes which as they are a shoeshop was probably not unreasonable but I didn't feel like dropping £85 just then so I didn't. I'll see how things go from hereon. Apart from anything else I need to start alternating running with some cycling if I'm going to do some audax events this year.

Maybe you shouldn't try and run everyday.  Standard advice is always make sure you take your rest days and try to vary your running.  Problem with YACF is too many cyclists and cyclists, audax ones in particular, always have to be different  ::-)

I usually run 4 days a week: at the moment something like 5 miles easy, 5 miles hard(ish), 6 miles off-road hilly and a long run (also off-road hilly at the moment).

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 31, 2010, 07:58:45 am
Blurgh.

9 minutes of my HR being 190bpm is all I can handle. Must have the remnants of a cold. Only managed 26 minutes. Will do another 15 minutes tomorrow to top myself up, also playing 5-a-side on Thursday.

I suppose this is what happens when you run on a machine.  Out here in the real world you can just slow down till your breath agrees to stay in your lungs and the need to vomit fades (and some 70 year old woman jogs past you).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on March 31, 2010, 08:19:30 am
having had damn sore shins the last few times I've run, and having to not run for the past 2 weeks, I finally made it to a physio last night.  Really interesting process, checking flexibility and mobility, seeing how I stand then watching me run round a track.  

Seems I am very flexible 'for a cyclist', but rotate both of my feet over to the left, stand and run with my left foot directly under my body and right foot out to the side slightly,  walk and run with my feet too close together and run 'from the knee rather than from the hip'.  

She recons it comes from having underdeveloped glutes, something Mrs mike thought was hilarious, given the size of my backside..

So lots of arse-building exercises for the next eight weeks :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on April 01, 2010, 11:55:40 pm

Oh dear, what I done?!?!?!?

After 17 days on the trot (so to speak) I've missed a couple of days as I developed a sore heel, caused, I suspect, by lack of stretching. My calves were getting tight to the extent I was walking down stairs sideways first thing in the morning. I poppped down to the local Sweatshop for some advice on Saturday but the only thing the young chap who served me could suggest was to buy some new shoes which as they are a shoeshop was probably not unreasonable but I didn't feel like dropping £85 just then so I didn't. I'll see how things go from hereon. Apart from anything else I need to start alternating running with some cycling if I'm going to do some audax events this year.

Maybe you shouldn't try and run everyday.  Standard advice is always make sure you take your rest days and try to vary your running.  Problem with YACF is too many cyclists and cyclists, audax ones in particular, always have to be different  ::-)

I usually run 4 days a week: at the moment something like 5 miles easy, 5 miles hard(ish), 6 miles off-road hilly and a long run (also off-road hilly at the moment).

Nik
A wise friend of mine once said the way to avoid injury is not to do the same thing (exercise/sport) two days in a row. Eddie of course had his personal physio, not that he seemed to take much advice!

Anyways its now time to start alternating running,  cycling and a bit of gym work. I really do need to get back on the bike.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on April 02, 2010, 09:05:29 am
She recons it comes from having underdeveloped glutes, something Mrs mike thought was hilarious, given the size of my backside..

The famous underdeveloped medial glutes again!

Medial glutes are the outside part of your arse -- it seems preposterously common for cyclists to have epic, mighty main glutes (they're a power muscle after all) but mimsy weak medial glutes.  After all, we're strapped in, and it doesn't take much power to keep our knees from flapping around.

Running with a slightly wider stance than feels natural will really activate the medial glutes. 

Weak medial glutes, alas, lead to ITB problems and all sorts if you run lots. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 02, 2010, 01:02:07 pm
She recons it comes from having underdeveloped glutes, something Mrs mike thought was hilarious, given the size of my backside..

The famous underdeveloped medial glutes again!

Medial glutes are the outside part of your arse -- it seems preposterously common for cyclists to have epic, mighty main glutes (they're a power muscle after all) but mimsy weak medial glutes.  After all, we're strapped in, and it doesn't take much power to keep our knees from flapping around.

Running with a slightly wider stance than feels natural will really activate the medial glutes. 

Weak medial glutes, alas, lead to ITB problems and all sorts if you run lots. 
I think Andy is spot on (well, he certainly agrees with various physios I've used!).

I'm a bit suspect of "Running with a slightly wider stance than feels natural"; sounds like it might cause other problems?

There are simple medial glute floor exercises (if noone finds a link, I'll try describing them!) - I would go for those first. In fact, I would advise them as a once-a-week preventative for all cyclists* (with my 20:20 Hindsight Goggles on).

*If you don't do much weight-bearing exercise - running, ball games etc
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: MSeries on April 02, 2010, 01:05:59 pm
Interesting, how about these ?

Targeting the Gluteus Medius (http://www.bodyresults.com/e2gluteusmedius.asp)


Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on April 02, 2010, 01:09:30 pm
My physio had me doing #5 lots! 

1-leg squats too.  Hate those.  Hate hate hate THUD.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 02, 2010, 01:13:20 pm
Interesting, how about these ?

Targeting the Gluteus Medius (http://www.bodyresults.com/e2gluteusmedius.asp)

Yup - No2 is the one I can vouch for. No need to strap on a weight unless you're a big guy (I don't think endurance cyclists need a LOT of strength in that muscle).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on April 02, 2010, 08:12:32 pm
Barefoot run is up to 3.5km now.  Getting the hang of a faster turnover and shorter strides thanks to the treadmill work. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on April 02, 2010, 08:22:49 pm
Round the Richmond Park today, slow as ever, dodging showers and admiring rainbows. I think my right heel problem may well be caused by worn shoes. Time to splash some cash.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on April 02, 2010, 11:25:07 pm
Barefoot run is up to 3.5km now.  Getting the hang of a faster turnover and shorter strides thanks to the treadmill work. :thumbsup:

Is that barefoot as in just your skin or with those odd shoes with the toes?(VFF?)
I like the idea of being able to run barefoot without my feet hurting. My feet are too pampered and soft though, so I'd need to condition them first. Is that what you did with the funny shoes?
(Yes, I am thinking about getting a pair for myself. I'm a sucker for freak factor and being a bit different to everyone else, plus I think they're cool shoes and if it helps me become able to run barefoot, then even better)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 03, 2010, 07:29:30 am
There is a chap I often see round my end of Oxford running barefoot.  I would say he was a Rastafarian but I'm not sure, he's often to be seen running in some sort of ceremonial gear - sort of leopard skin judo suit with matching flowerpot on head and voodoo stick.  He is a strong, elegant runner and makes quite a sight. 

I've seen him on and off for years but actually bothered to look at his feet the other week and his heals do seem to stop just before touching the ground.

Feet can get pretty tough if you walk barefoot a lot.  I used to go round barefoot a lot in my late teens and don't remember injuring myself.  We would stand at the bus stop on the way to the pub and I'd grind out my fag butt on the tarmac with bare feet - it'd get some great looks from the old dears.  God I was an obnoxious git!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on April 03, 2010, 07:40:14 am
It's with the funky toe-shoes.  Between the glass-and-poo protection and the thin non-padded skin, think of them as 'fearless feet' and you're about right.

Gonna do some triathlon in them this year.  Transition could be hilarious.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 03, 2010, 03:42:23 pm
I ran did Compton Challenge 20 today, 670 metres climbing in some very mixed terrain.  I was rather trepidatious about it as it rather hurt last year and this year there was the threat of heavy rain and wind to spice it up.  Target was 3hr 40m (yes I know that's slow but it's hilly and I'm feeble) and plan was to follow the example of my betters and walk the hills so I didn't end up walking the flat bits later.

1st mile was so muddy the woods turned into a bottle neck and most of us had to walk a bit while the gunge ouzed into our shoes.  Spent much of the first 10 miles running with VR ultra runner Anna Finn who was doing the 40 mile version which was a special run for her as it qualified her for the 100 Marathon Club, she'd done the 99th just yesterday.  Apparently the 100 MC are a bit like AUK and if she didn't do the whole 40 miles in the time limit it didn't count, no dropping out at 39 miles.  Various ultra tips from Anna and others: if you walk a hill start running again before the top; the secret of being able to run further is to run all the time (could have worked that out for myself); don't just ignore the pain in your legs, ignore the legs altogether etc.

I reached the bottom of the biggest hill at 10 miles with a few minutes in the bank, this being the off-road version of Streatley Hill, and walked it alternating walking forwards and walking backwards which spared my muscles enough for me to just take the brakes off and go with the flow down the long descent which followed.  Mile and half drag up to the 16 mile checkpoint was the nearest thing to a bad spot for me but a couple of orange squashes and a banana and I kept myself going for the last few miles along the Ridgeway by reminding myself how crap I'd felt at this stage last year.

Finished in something like 3:36 still smiling and was chuffed to find the finish goody was a proper running shirt rather than yet another T-shirt which made the £15 entry worthwhile (there was a free meal as well but I can't eat straight after running).  Great run, well organised, highly recommended, doesn't really hurt at all, not a drop of rain in the end (and they don't charge any more for the 40 miler).

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 03, 2010, 03:51:09 pm
Cracking stuff Nik!

(I rode round to Goring at lunchtime - if I'd known I'd have headed to the Hendreds instead.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 04, 2010, 07:12:29 am
Cracking stuff Nik!

(I rode round to Goring at lunchtime - if I'd known I'd have headed to the Hendreds instead.)

Thanks Matt - maybe you were that black dot in Goring on the other side of the Thames way below about 11:30 - some excellent views from Lough Down up there by the golf course.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Hummers on April 05, 2010, 09:58:01 am
Cracking stuff Nik.

Entry posted for the Doddle.

H
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on April 05, 2010, 10:57:01 pm
Well done NikW. 

Good advice of the week must be "ignore the legs altogether"   ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on April 06, 2010, 10:35:14 pm
Another run round my 11km circuit 'along the Thames with Ms Manotea the Elder trying to keep up on her bike. My gait is vaguely starting to resemble 'running'. Encouraging...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on April 06, 2010, 10:57:09 pm
Run up my local hill this afternoon in pretty foul conditions - most snow has gone leaving everywhere very very wet plus wind and driving rain on the tops was quite unpleasant.

Some lambs appearing, but also found two dead sheep who had sheltered by a wall and got buried by the snow - farmer reckoned he'd lost (as in couldn't find) 300 sheep and the bull (!) last week.

Very lethargic at start but after 20 mins felt OK and got better thro' the run, tho' a touch of cramp in left calf still bothering me.  Knackered now, but so pleased to have got out.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on April 10, 2010, 12:24:25 pm
Scored a new pair of shoes on eBay (£30 against £85 at Sweatshop!) and my heel feels fine after yesterdays run. Whilst the tread on my old shoes was a bit worn the difference is only a couple of mm, and  the sole/heel cushioning feels much the same. Maybe its not the shoes and I'm just getting a bit lighter/fitter. One can hope.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sigurd Mudtracker on April 10, 2010, 08:31:56 pm
This thread has a lot to answer for with discussions of LDWA events, "audax" running and ultras in general.  I've stumbled on the UltraMarathonRunning.com (http://www.ultramarathonrunning.com/) website which as well as events also has links to training advice (http://www.ultramarathonrunning.com/training/index.html), and in particular was taken by the UltraLadies' 50km advice (http://www.trailrunevents.com/ul/schedule-50k.htm) which suggested that even an ordinary mortal such as myself could do it.  So far I haven't entered anything, but have spent some time arguing with myself why I shouldn't rejig this year's training targets to run an ultra - next year is soon enough...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 11, 2010, 04:40:53 pm
This thread has a lot to answer for with discussions of LDWA events, "audax" running and ultras in general.  I've stumbled on the UltraMarathonRunning.com (http://www.ultramarathonrunning.com/) website which as well as events also has links to training advice (http://www.ultramarathonrunning.com/training/index.html), and in particular was taken by the UltraLadies' 50km advice (http://www.trailrunevents.com/ul/schedule-50k.htm) which suggested that even an ordinary mortal such as myself could do it.  So far I haven't entered anything, but have spent some time arguing with myself why I shouldn't rejig this year's training targets to run an ultra - next year is soon enough...

That UltraLadies schedule looks good - I like the idea* of knocking out a couple of marathons in the preceding month.  The authoress is a Badwater finisher so ought to know what she's going on about (but there again I suppose to her 50k is just the little bit at the end of Badwater after you've bagged the first 100 miles).  Why a separate schedule for ladies I wonder?

A good tale of ultra Scot Jurek having a bad time on Runners World (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-243-297--13460-1-1X2X3X4X5X6X7X8X9X10X11X12-13,00.html#) website!

Been my turn for sore feet this week, sole of my left foot where the wotsit muscle joins the heal got so painful I walked back from my Tuesday run.  I think running Compton in worn shoes took it's toll but I just didn't feel it till afterwards.  A few days rest and a brand new pair of Inov8s and I was good for 10 miles trail today.

* Just the idea - I suspect the reality would be a bit wearing.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on April 12, 2010, 09:39:25 pm
Meanwhile down at the short end of the course, it's time for a goal for the week: This 5k run loop (http://maps.cloudmade.com/?lat=50.710347&lng=-3.52232&zoom=15&directions=50.71662368543091,-3.509702682495117,50.706623277954606,-3.515496253967285,50.70944969633572,-3.5207748413085938,50.71469442508667,-3.5266971588134766,50.70993886683449,-3.5173416137695312,50.71643348019332,-3.5097885131835938&travel=foot&styleId=1&opened_tab=1) inna lunchtime barefoot stylee.  Not worried about time, Just Do It.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: geraldc on April 12, 2010, 09:44:37 pm
Brighton Marathon this Sunday, not enough training, going to be interesting  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 13, 2010, 06:51:13 am
Brighton Marathon this Sunday, not enough training, going to be interesting  ;D

Good luck -  training just wears you out before you've even started  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 13, 2010, 06:55:16 am
Meanwhile down at the short end of the course, it's time for a goal for the week: This 5k run loop (http://maps.cloudmade.com/?lat=50.710347&lng=-3.52232&zoom=15&directions=50.71662368543091,-3.509702682495117,50.706623277954606,-3.515496253967285,50.70944969633572,-3.5207748413085938,50.71469442508667,-3.5266971588134766,50.70993886683449,-3.5173416137695312,50.71643348019332,-3.5097885131835938&travel=foot&styleId=1&opened_tab=1) inna lunchtime barefoot stylee.  Not worried about time, Just Do It.

I had a strange turn last week after that bad run.  I thought 'why not' took my shoes and socks off and ran gently once round the meadow.  Only about 500 metres but still quite liberating and surprisingly comfortable.

A bloke walking his dog made a point of looking in the opposite direction to avoid meeting the nutters eyes  :o
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on April 13, 2010, 02:57:07 pm
Uphill is so much nicer than down.  Done, with several stops to stretch out the giant balloon calves of DEATH.  Now to do it moar!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on April 16, 2010, 09:27:10 pm
One other benefit of vff - they are excellent for squats and deadlifts   ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on April 16, 2010, 09:37:54 pm
Aren't they just?   ;D

They utterly suck for turbo-trainer work though.  I forgot my bike shoes for tonight's tri club session, and had to do everything in the vff's.  Running fine, turbo daft.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on April 17, 2010, 02:32:56 pm
What is your thinking for your triathlon - will you swap shoes or use toeclips and keep the vffs on all the time (could you swim in them)?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 19, 2010, 10:55:37 am
Brighton Marathon this Sunday, not enough training, going to be interesting  ;D

So was it fun  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: geraldc on April 20, 2010, 09:52:00 am
It was excellent! I plodded round the course in 5hrs 5 mins. Which I'm more than happy with given the level of training, and extra weight I'm carrying  ;D

It was a great marathon, weather was a bit too sunny, but with only 10 thousand runners, and massive crowds lining almost the entire course it was a great experience.
I actually thought it was far better than the London marathon.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on April 20, 2010, 02:31:03 pm
What is your thinking for your triathlon - will you swap shoes or use toeclips and keep the vffs on all the time (could you swim in them)?

I'll swap shoes.  I bike sockless anyway (there's no point for half an hour) so it'll just be the hilarity of getting them on at speed.  I'll be practicing that.

Note for cycling: they have about a -5mm platform height, 'cos you squish down into the spindle.  That means that your saddle *is* too high (which is what I think re-borked my knee on the turbo).  Also, they suck.  Really really suck.  Unless you have big solid platforms, they suck chunky goat vomit through a twisty straw.  Cruiser = yay.  Time trial = you may as well keep your hair dry in the swim and towel off.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 20, 2010, 06:32:09 pm
It was excellent! I plodded round the course in 5hrs 5 mins. Which I'm more than happy with given the level of training, and extra weight I'm carrying  ;D

It was a great marathon, weather was a bit too sunny, but with only 10 thousand runners, and massive crowds lining almost the entire course it was a great experience.
I actually thought it was far better than the London marathon.

It was a bit warm Sunday - I managed to get both sunburnt and dehydrated on my long run and was still back before lunch.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on April 21, 2010, 02:11:59 pm
This morning was lovely, my lift to the TT tonight is not happening so I ran in. Even did an extra loop on the hill.

3.5 miles, 365ft ascent, 450 descent, but my legs ache a bit and I am HUNGRY.

..d
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 23, 2010, 10:35:43 am

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.


You might like to read "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Born-Run-Ultra-running-Super-athlete-Tribe/dp/1861978235/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267974067&sr=8-2) (coming out in paperback next month).  He puts forward a very persuasive argument that humans are made to run, and that our bipedal approach gives us certain advantages over quadrupeds which allowed early man to be a very successful hunter and to range far and wide.  Expanding on this argument he goes on to show evidence that most runners can continue to function at the same sort of level with little relative decline into their sixties.  This cheered me up immensely!


I've been reading 'Born to Run', a great book, much more 'Feet in the Clouds' than 'Runners Handbook'.  Very engrossing, a proper story with a plot rather than a load of training blurgh - highly recommended  :thumbsup: 

Not quite finished it yet but after sinking into the story with a couple of beers I was getting very tempted to throw all my shoes in the bin, run the trails and go to work barefoot (do they do steel toecap VFFs?).  The arguments and evidence against over-protective shoes are good but I guess the problem is that many of us are too broken and dysfunctional to even survive without society's artificial cushionings, let alone run.

Still after I've got the Neolithic Marathon out of the way I think I may experiment (and maybe eat a few of my earlier words).

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on April 23, 2010, 03:02:23 pm

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.


You might like to read "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Born-Run-Ultra-running-Super-athlete-Tribe/dp/1861978235/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267974067&sr=8-2) (coming out in paperback next month).  He puts forward a very persuasive argument that humans are made to run, and that our bipedal approach gives us certain advantages over quadrupeds which allowed early man to be a very successful hunter and to range far and wide.  Expanding on this argument he goes on to show evidence that most runners can continue to function at the same sort of level with little relative decline into their sixties.  This cheered me up immensely!


I've been reading 'Born to Run', a great book, much more 'Feet in the Clouds' than 'Runners Handbook'.  Very engrossing, a proper story with a plot rather than a load of training blurgh - highly recommended  :thumbsup: 

 I was getting very tempted to throw all my shoes in the bin, run the trails and go to work barefoot (do they do steel toecap VFFs?). 



Thanks for the headsup on "Born to Run" in paperback - something for the birthday list.

Instead of steel toecapped vff try these
Dunlop Footwear (http://www.dunlopfootwear.com.au/ProductDetail.asp?PID=147&SCID=574&dir=SAFETY%20FOOTWEAR)

flat heels for forefoot running encouraged, little or no cushioning and very non-slip.  plus your toes are protected   ;D

think they'll do a job and a lot cheaper than vffs
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on April 23, 2010, 03:25:45 pm
Is that Chuck Norris?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on April 23, 2010, 03:26:42 pm
Chuck doesn't need a nail gun.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on May 08, 2010, 07:14:10 pm
having had damn sore shins the last few times I've run, and having to not run for the past 2 weeks, I finally made it to a physio last night.  Really interesting process, checking flexibility and mobility, seeing how I stand then watching me run round a track. 

Seems I am very flexible 'for a cyclist', but rotate both of my feet over to the left, stand and run with my left foot directly under my body and right foot out to the side slightly,  walk and run with my feet too close together and run 'from the knee rather than from the hip'. 

She recons it comes from having underdeveloped glutes, something Mrs mike thought was hilarious, given the size of my backside..

So lots of arse-building exercises for the next eight weeks :)

update..

have been gradually building up distance, starting off at 3 minutes run / 1 minute walk for 20 minutes, concentrating on keeping my feet a bit wider apart and trying to push rather than pull (if that makes sense). 

& its going really well!  just back from 9 miles in 90 minutes, which was 11 x 7 minutes run, 1 minute walk.  A beautiful run, could have gone a bit quicker but wanted to make sure I didnt explode before the end.  No shin pain at all, just tired legs. 

I dont want to push my luck so will do some short sharp intervals or hills for the next week or so then got a triathlon in <gulp> Keswick in a fortnight so that'll be a nice hilly 10k test.......
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 10, 2010, 06:14:18 pm
having had damn sore shins the last few times I've run, and having to not run for the past 2 weeks, I finally made it to a physio last night.  Really interesting process, checking flexibility and mobility, seeing how I stand then watching me run round a track. 

Seems I am very flexible 'for a cyclist', but rotate both of my feet over to the left, stand and run with my left foot directly under my body and right foot out to the side slightly,  walk and run with my feet too close together and run 'from the knee rather than from the hip'. 

She recons it comes from having underdeveloped glutes, something Mrs mike thought was hilarious, given the size of my backside..

So lots of arse-building exercises for the next eight weeks :)

update..

have been gradually building up distance, starting off at 3 minutes run / 1 minute walk for 20 minutes, concentrating on keeping my feet a bit wider apart and trying to push rather than pull (if that makes sense). 

& its going really well!  just back from 9 miles in 90 minutes, which was 11 x 7 minutes run, 1 minute walk.  A beautiful run, could have gone a bit quicker but wanted to make sure I didnt explode before the end.  No shin pain at all, just tired legs. 

I dont want to push my luck so will do some short sharp intervals or hills for the next week or so then got a triathlon in <gulp> Keswick in a fortnight so that'll be a nice hilly 10k test.......

If you can run/walk 9 miles @ 10 min/miles pain free then I don't see you having much problem racing 10k.

Though you do the run bit last with tri don't you - guess you could be a bit knackered ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 16, 2010, 10:37:11 pm
Did my first 10k in 5+ years last weekend, so decided to put a bit more in to it today, on the basis I knew I could get around. Loads of effort, culminating in coughing/vomiting when I stopped. All that effort got took 27 seconds off the time. TWENTY SEVEN SECONDS! There is no justice in this world.

I blame the tories.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on May 17, 2010, 08:37:00 pm
That's not trivial!  It's, um...

six seconds per mile

...okay, it's not epic either.  But it's FASTER and that's full of WIN! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 17, 2010, 09:15:26 pm
Surely it all depends which seconds they were. 

I scraped in at 49:52 at the Prestwood 10k yesterday - another 7 secs would be neither here nor there but another 10 secs would have felt like whole minutes  ;D

You didn't throw up on the timekeeper did you  :sick:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 25, 2010, 12:59:58 pm
There is a chap I often see round my end of Oxford running barefoot.  I would say he was a Rastafarian but I'm not sure, he's often to be seen running in some sort of ceremonial gear - sort of leopard skin judo suit with matching flowerpot on head and voodoo stick.  He is a strong, elegant runner and makes quite a sight. 

I've seen him on and off for years but actually bothered to look at his feet the other week and his heals do seem to stop just before touching the ground.

Feet can get pretty tough if you walk barefoot a lot.  I used to go round barefoot a lot in my late teens and don't remember injuring myself.  We would stand at the bus stop on the way to the pub and I'd grind out my fag butt on the tarmac with bare feet - it'd get some great looks from the old dears.  God I was an obnoxious git!

2 barefoot runs - 4x2mins around the football club's training pitch - in the middle of 'normal' runs. Felt bloody fantastic, no ill effects so far.
Did a cautious recce of the loop with shoes on first, then went for it. At this stage the slightest bit of hard earth sends alarm signals through my feet, if I tread on a stone I shall probably faint.  If it wasn't for budget issues I'd buy some VFFs right now.

Now upto 30mins (plus a little cautionary walking). Using the old shoes to avoid blisters. Dorsal pain went away following:
- rest
- use of inserts to raise my heel while walking
- new orthotics, as recommended by podio, in running shoes.

I guess I need new shoes that fit differently to cure the blister issue. Why are the VFFs so expensive?!? Might buy some cheap/light racing flats instead ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 27, 2010, 07:48:58 am

2 barefoot runs - 4x2mins around the football club's training pitch - in the middle of 'normal' runs. Felt bloody fantastic, no ill effects so far.
Did a cautious recce of the loop with shoes on first, then went for it. At this stage the slightest bit of hard earth sends alarm signals through my feet, if I tread on a stone I shall probably faint.  If it wasn't for budget issues I'd buy some VFFs right now.

Now upto 30mins (plus a little cautionary walking). Using the old shoes to avoid blisters. Dorsal pain went away following:
- rest
- use of inserts to raise my heel while walking
- new orthotics, as recommended by podio, in running shoes.

I guess I need new shoes that fit differently to cure the blister issue. Why are the VFFs so expensive?!? Might buy some cheap/light racing flats instead ...

I bought a pair of VFF Sprints of ebay for £60.  1st attempt I didn't really like them, my toes have been together for many years and didn't like being separated, also I was actively trying to run on my midfoot rather than just running and seeing what happened.

Went out in them yesterday though and ran a very comfy mile on grass, I just ran as normal and my style adjusted itself.  I've no ambition to do any distance in them but think a short session every week could be fun.

If you buy them on-line be very aware of the unusual sizing methods, you have to measure your feet and look at a chart and the size is likely to be much smaller than your normal shoe size.

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 27, 2010, 11:43:56 am
Can't I go full african and run in some cheap sandals? This site suggests I can:

Barefoot Ted's Adventures: Huarache Running Sandals: Kits & Custom (http://barefootted.com/shop/)

Anyone found anything similar?

Meanwhile:
These are NOT Vibram Five Fingers!  Spotting Fakes, Counterfeits, Knock-Offs, and other Pirated, Black Market Five-Toed Shoes (http://birthdayshoes.com/these-are-not-vibram-five-fingers-spotting-fakes-counterfeits-knock-offs-and-other-pirated-black-market-five-toed-shoes)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on May 27, 2010, 12:59:09 pm
Sure you can - and as soon as I find a sheet of rubber in a skip, I'll give it a go. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 27, 2010, 01:18:04 pm
Can't I go full african and run in some cheap sandals? This site suggests I can:

Barefoot Ted's Adventures: Huarache Running Sandals: Kits & Custom (http://barefootted.com/shop/)

Anyone found anything similar?

Meanwhile:
These are NOT Vibram Five Fingers!  Spotting Fakes, Counterfeits, Knock-Offs, and other Pirated, Black Market Five-Toed Shoes (http://birthdayshoes.com/these-are-not-vibram-five-fingers-spotting-fakes-counterfeits-knock-offs-and-other-pirated-black-market-five-toed-shoes)

Oh dear - I see mine in the picture  :-[   AND I could have got the same fakes £15 cheaper  :(

Very convincing what with the proper box and leaflet and even the tag.   They do seem very well made fakes though and as I say quite comfy after a bit.  I guess I'll just try not to be too far from home when they fall apart or I'll be doing some proper barefoot running  ::-)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 27, 2010, 01:20:22 pm
Sure you can - and as soon as I find a sheet of rubber in a skip, I'll give it a go. :thumbsup:

I think it said old car tires were the proper stuff in 'Born to Run' :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 27, 2010, 04:37:48 pm
Sorry Nik! Best  not to worry, just use the things, nothing to lose.

(And note that some copies come from the same factory  :thumbsup:)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 27, 2010, 05:26:31 pm
Sorry Nik! Best  not to worry, just use the things, nothing to lose.

(And note that some copies come from the same factory  :thumbsup:)

But won't ordinary people in the street stop and stare and say; "Look that man's wearing FAKE vffs!"  :o
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on May 27, 2010, 07:52:57 pm
Sure you can - and as soon as I find a sheet of rubber in a skip, I'll give it a go. :thumbsup:

I think it said old car tires were the proper stuff in 'Born to Run' :thumbsup:

I reckon that the inner tube from a mountain bike would just be wide enough.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on May 27, 2010, 09:55:29 pm
Way too flimsy, surely?  Practically fake-vff sole! ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on May 27, 2010, 10:55:25 pm
Way too flimsy, surely?  Practically fake-vff sole! ;)

You could glue a couple together. Rub the sides to be glued with some emery cloth to remove the silicon, then glue togther with superglue.
Or put some repair pathches where your toes, ball of the foot and heel go.

They'd be tailor made too, cos you'd draw around your feet before you cut the rubber.

Worth a punt with a knackered mountain bike tube I reckon.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 28, 2010, 11:07:25 am
Yup, old MTB tubes have I. (still with some material not harvested for other rational use)

How to attach to feet? Superglue?


or ....



toe strap!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on May 28, 2010, 02:06:30 pm
A bit thick.  String is a wonderful thing.  I'm going to use paracord.

Another pattern: Minimalist Running Sandals (Huaraches) (http://www.instructables.com/id/Minimalist-Running-Sandals-Huaraches/)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 28, 2010, 02:16:18 pm
What prevents string/paracord/barkstrips from abrading one's skin?

Are the designs trial and error?

Or do you just need soft/smooth/furry types of string?

(think I'll try a short run in my sandals later ... )
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on May 28, 2010, 02:36:27 pm
Buggered if I know.  Magic Tribal Knots or skin like leather.  Let us know how they work out.  :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 26, 2010, 04:19:38 pm
I tried some Nike Free 3.0 on Friday. Felt really nice to run in, and only £65*. The shop balked at stocking the Vibrams, cos they couldn't see customers paying the extra.

I would be very tempted, but there are none IN THE UK in my size (except possibly some ladies model, which oddly are £15 cheaper).

The 5.0 were good, but have a lot more heel on them, which seems to miss the point somewhat :-/

So if anyone sees any (around size 9) actually in stock**, let me know.

Oh, quick plug for Fit 2 Run, north Abingdon - really helpful bunch, and cyclist-friendly :thumbsup:

*Which is still a lot of momey for so little shoe!
** No, I won't accept Google Search Results e.g. Wiggle do NOT have any.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on July 03, 2010, 01:13:54 pm
Spookily, this arrived the same morning as the MC1K routesheet:

Dorset Doddle Saturday, 3 July, 2010 12:09
From: "Dorset LDWA" <h...@btinternet.com>
To: mattc

Entry confirmation
+ 1 coach seat


*Double gulp*
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on July 05, 2010, 05:53:48 pm
I ran my first 10k race in years yesterday - because it happened to be starting about 250m away from where I live. No preparation worth mentioning, I had a hangover and it was a really burningly hot day and a hilly course. I was seriously considering not bothering, and once I did decide to go for it, I thought I would just take it easy and jog round in an hour.

Actually I got home in 46.08 (pacing 4.37) and was one place off an age-group medal (20th overall).  ;D However, if I had realised, I might have gone for it a bit more.  >:( I am now going to get back to training properly, and do another 10K in a month or so, and a half marathon in the autumn. If it all goes well, next year I reckon I could easily get nearer 40 minutes, and certainly under 44.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Frenchie on July 10, 2010, 04:29:14 am
No bike. So regular running action for me for the past two weeks, but also in June; something I enjoy when I travel as a means to do some tourism, relax after meetings or simply start the day or get some "me-time". Did quite a bit of grass and dirt track/trail running this week, have enjoyed it and, so far, my Achille's heel is behaving. More tomorrow morning, in Central Sao Paulo this time (Parque do Trianon!).

PS And still enjoying my Adidas Supernovas.  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on August 22, 2010, 06:34:03 pm
Went out for a 3km run. Relaxed 12kph pace. Knees felt good.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on August 25, 2010, 07:43:35 pm
Here is a classic event that might still be open for entries this year:

Dorset Doddle (http://www.btinternet.com/~hardy.annual/doddle.htm)

The fact that it is in Dorset, is referred to as a 'Doddle'  and follows the undulations of the coast should give you an idea what to expect.  :demon:

I have not done the event itself but used the route for training and for many years "the Dorset training day" would appear ominously in the calendar around Easter.

H

Still open for entries. Apparently.
You can read about our experiment in cycling as training for coastal walking:
Dorset Doddle 31mile Coast Walk, 22nd Aug (http://faffing.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/dorset-doddle-31mile-coast-walk-22nd-aug/)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on August 26, 2010, 05:08:04 pm
My prose can be found here (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=37289.msg704767#msg704767).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on August 26, 2010, 08:31:24 pm
5km off road. And 50km cycling. Damp.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jakob on September 03, 2010, 05:20:35 am
I've always hated running. Hated!. Put me on a bike, and I'll happily pedal for hours, ask me to run and I'll blow up in 30 seconds, regardless of my fitness level. (Unless, I'm chasing a ball or a frisbee, of course..that's different).
(Un)fortunately, it's an integral part of Crossfit, so over the last 2 months, I've been running more than I probably have the last 20 years....and are slowly getting used to it. I still don't like it, but at least I don't hate it( as much).
Mostly we run in 400meter segments, either as warm-up or part of the multi-part work-out. Tonight, we ended up running 2k in total, which for me is quite a lot!
Anyways: I would like to improve my basic running technique, because I'm sure it's neither here or there. Any websites that are good for starting runners?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on September 07, 2010, 04:33:59 pm
Last week: daily moderate-paced 7km, split by 50km bike ride and strength-training.

This week: 13km (today, race speed, so just under 1 hour), up the regular daily run to 10km moderate paced (plus strength-training and bike rides).

Next week: 18km at race speed, keep regular run at 10km (plus strength-training and bike rides).

Week after next: reduce to 7 km regular again, with another c.13km extra one at race speed (plus strength-training and bike rides).

Three weeks' time, short runs just keep warm, loose and stretched, a nice bike ride in the middle of the week, then half-marathon on the weekend... yikes.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on September 12, 2010, 10:13:29 am
Haven't run in a few months, but got talking to some other Dads at a Dad's night down the pub (village life is so rock and/or roll), and 10km times came up. I kept schtum, because my best time is from about 7 years ago. However, I was inspired, so decided to do  10km this morning, I did it in just under 49 mins, which is a couple of minutes over my best time, but suggests to me that I am fitter now fromn cycling that I was when I was running regularly back then.

Got into a "it's not a race" race on the way back on my loop, which helped. He was younger and faster (and had nicer hair) than me, but I didn't let him catch me for the 3km before we parted company. I was glad he did go the other way, because I would have puked at the pace I was going to hold him off.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on September 19, 2010, 05:24:47 pm
Last week was awful on the commute after that run - took until friday not to feel bruised. Despite that, I did it again this morning, but deliberately aimed for a steady 12kph average, and managed it. Spent the afternoon wandering around Anglesey Abbey looking for conkers, and the legs feel much better. Hopefully, they'll feel okay in the morning.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on September 19, 2010, 06:51:13 pm
10 miles here yesterday at a very, very gentle 10kph average, I really enjoyed it and am starting to find the equivalent of 'all day gentle ride pace' on my 2 feet.  Then 3 miles straight after a 50 mile bike ride this morning and it was just awful.. my legs felt worse than during a tri but I suppose it's got to help in the long term!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on September 20, 2010, 03:26:20 pm
I did about the same in distance yestreday. The schedule (above) hasn't quite worked out as I was saying due to me having to travel - but I did manage a couple of 13k runs and a 10k last week as well as some gym work (weights and rowing machine) and then did 16k in a gentle 1hr 20 yesterday - I guess that's 12kph. Felt fine afterwards and feel absolutely fine today. So the preparation is going well anyway! I'm going to do a couple of fast 10k's this week and some strength work, and then a final longer one (probably the same 16k) next weekend, before lowering the work rate in the week before the half marathon.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on October 03, 2010, 03:19:04 pm
Missed last weekends run, but did 10k in 47m05s this morning. I know the best 10k I did when I was at uni was 47m, so those 5 seconds deny me claiming a PB. It feels like I could go below 45m at some point, so I'll probably have that as a goal for next year. At the mo, I hold back until about 3/4s of the way round in case my legs go.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on October 03, 2010, 10:09:55 pm
Did the half marathon today. It was a cold day, with the wind in the wrong direction - the whole route was set up on the basis of a prevailing south-westerly but today it was from the east. Nevertheless, I was going well and on target for around 1.43, but something nasty happened deep inside my left thigh with about 5km to go and I limped home very painfully in about 1.48. There is nothing worse than feeling you are going backwards, as runner after runner overtakes you...

*update - actually,  I just checked the official times, and it was 1.46.16 and 85th out of 630, so not as bad as I thought (especially for my first ever competitive half). Still as painful, though.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on October 04, 2010, 04:13:10 pm
running is the weakest part of my triathlon by miles, and in the past it's been a good way to shift some of the lard, so to give me something to aim for I've just entered a half marathon in Norwich at the end of November. 

Managed 10k last night in a pretty comfy 58 minutes, so with five weeks to go should be on track for something better than 2 hours.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on October 04, 2010, 04:36:56 pm
Good luck, Mike. Sounds like 2 hours would be reasonable given where you are now.

My advice is simple to pace yourself, and if there are pacers provided in the race stick with the 2 hour one (the half I did had several guys wearing cardboard bunny ears which had the time they were pacing for written on them. I should have stuck with the 1.45 guy instead of thinking that I felt good enough to run a few minutes faster than that... which no doubt contributed to the injury I did myself).

Oh, and remember that running a half is not just two 10Ks: that extra 1-and-a-bit km at the end is an absolute killer.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on October 10, 2010, 10:05:12 pm
Today has been spent feeding my newly aquired garden incinerator. Didn't get the kids off to bed on time, so did my first run in the dark with a head torch. Lots of country lanes with no street lighting and it was a clear starry night. Just 7km (still got housework to do) but brilliant fun. Quite tempted by a Zebratorch now.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: michael2u on October 11, 2010, 09:20:34 am
I would like to tell my experience which is not so good about running but one thing is there to support me that I am a football player and running is basic necessity of the game. However, I haven't measured it in hours or in kilometers but still I run everyday to keep up my stamina. :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on October 24, 2010, 08:54:55 pm
Just ran 13km with a neighbour. He's a bit slower than me, so I did all the talking. He's got an iphone with a piece of software call runkeeper. He set it for 50min 10km pace, and we stayed within 3 seconds of it throughout. Felt like I could have just kept going and going at that pace. Good fun.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on November 01, 2010, 08:08:57 pm
I keep forgetting that unlike bimbly jogging, forefoot-style running is advanced, by which I mean that if you stop doing it for a few weeks, it'll utterly spank you when you restart.

As Captain Restarto, of the Good Ship Lets-Try-That-Again, this bites. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on November 01, 2010, 08:11:21 pm
Do you think so Andy? I find I can run pretty slowly forefoot-stylee too!

[but then i haven't run far or quickly for years now, so YMMV ... ]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on November 01, 2010, 08:17:59 pm
It's not the speed, it's the regularity of the activity!  (I'm slow, I'm slow like entropy!)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on November 01, 2010, 08:48:27 pm
I keep forgetting that unlike bimbly jogging, forefoot-style running is advanced, by which I mean that if you stop doing it for a few weeks, it'll utterly spank you when you restart.

As Captain Restarto, of the Good Ship Lets-Try-That-Again, this bites. :facepalm:

Tell me about it. I've hardly been out since that half-marathon. I can feel the fat accreting and many long slow months of hard training ahead to get back where I was just a few weeks ago...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on November 07, 2010, 11:15:38 am
just got an android phone and installed one of those pacing apps (cardio trainer). Previous 10k pb  was 47.05. Set it at 45min pace and ran a 44.24 without really trying that hard. Massive help getting continuous updates on projected time. It's free (paid option give extras plus integration with a livestrong alike calorie tracking app).

About - WorkSmart CardioTrainer (http://www.worksmartlabs.com/cardiotrainer/about.php)

Unlike Runkeeper, the  voice prompt thing comes with the free version.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 10, 2010, 12:05:02 am
Tonight I was on the treadmill at the gym. Went up to 12kph for 10 minutes. 45 minutes and 7.12km in all. Race pace around 14kph to beat my PB next week.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 14, 2010, 08:37:38 pm
Ran 4 miles this afternoon in drizzle.  Wore too much clothes, overheated!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on November 15, 2010, 04:08:04 pm
I'm back to 7k, three or four days a week... bit of a break from the freezing temperatures here too, so I have to take advantage while it lasts. Actually the temperature isn't the problem, it's when the sides of the roads are basically all black ice.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 16, 2010, 03:46:33 pm
Another half hour run this lunchtime. Going to try to beat my #camfunrun PB on Friday.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 19, 2010, 01:12:38 pm
Another half hour run this lunchtime. Going to try to beat my #camfunrun PB on Friday.

 :thumbsup:

I timed my run as 6'50 for the 1.1 (1.13 by my reckoning) mile course.  I have done 7'01 on three of the previous five attempts.  Paced using GPS watch; averaged 6'02 per mile pace.  Now I have a new target for next year, averaging under a 6 minute mile.

Average HR was 182bpm.

 :hand:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on November 21, 2010, 09:29:17 am
Went for a slowish run with my neighbour. 16km in 1m23s. Furthest I've run about 6 years - felt great.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on November 21, 2010, 09:35:30 am
Went for a slowish run with my neighbour. 16km in 1m23s. Furthest I've run about 6 years - felt great.

 :o

Well Done!  :D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on November 21, 2010, 11:08:25 am
Lol

Yeah, 1h23m.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on November 21, 2010, 11:36:27 am

      
      Science Park Fun Run 2010 by simon.proven at Garmin Connect - Details   (http://bit.ly/bX9jBv)

Hr max of 193 from the 'fun' run.

Noone can say I wasn't trying.  ::-)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on November 22, 2010, 04:44:41 pm
Starting to get back into this. I tend to get to the gymn, set the treadmill to something that is probably desperately slow by the regular runners standards and the computer thingy to intervals where it does 2 mins flat, then 2 (or 4, or 6 depending on the options chosen)  at 3% gradient. Rinse lather repeat. Run for a bit. If I am feeling keen then I will up the pace by 0.1 every set. After about half an hour or 500 calories I am usually pretty tired.

Wednesday I might run in, then back via the hospital (ahich would be a rather longer run than I am used to.)
..d
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: andygates on January 02, 2011, 11:08:03 pm
Whoops, got talked into the Forest of Dean half-marathon.  12 weeks away!  (almost exactly one training plan, then :thumbsup: ) Better get started...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: border-rider on January 03, 2011, 10:04:53 pm
Local

I might drag Tewdric along to laugh & point at you :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Quisling on February 02, 2011, 01:23:43 pm
I did my first fell race last Sat near Llandovery, 5 miles/1250' category AS

I came 2nd. 2nd last that is. I think another chap didn't finish so technically I was almost out of the bottom three. Conclusion: fell running is not something generally done by "fun runners". Rather, I was competing against whippet-build athletes including someone who "used to run for Wales" and just about everyone else was wearing a club vest.

I was fairly pleased with my time actually (58:29 for a hilly 5 miles, 4/5 of which was off road).

Managed to do a 56:26 flattish Tarmac 10k last night. Target for the next few weeks is to get to sub 50 mins. I used the runkeeper iPhone app last night for the first time - not bad apart from the hassle of running with my iPhone in my hand.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on February 11, 2011, 08:31:57 pm
Dragged my distance up to just over 8k on the treadmill tonight. Just under 48 mins of 2 minute intervals (as above) at 10.1 km/h
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on February 13, 2011, 04:17:57 pm
I've been running 10k twice a week in the ice and snow. Good for endurance rather than speed! As the conditions ease here, I'm going to up my weekend run to 15 to 20 to 25 (and more, occasionally) for endurance, and use my midweek 10 for speed work.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on February 18, 2011, 11:53:46 pm
Up to 10k tonight on the treadmill. 10.1 kph with the 2 minute intervals. Wow that takes something out of me. Bit weary now but I'll try to build the speed up now I can do the distance.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on February 19, 2011, 09:52:12 pm
A steady 15k in hideous, icy, windy conditions today. Summer will be a breeze in comparison!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on March 21, 2011, 12:31:39 pm
20.5km yesterday - my first go at my 'not quite a half marathon' loop. I think I have a persistent problem in my hip. Exactly the same pain as when I did a proper competitive half last year. It seems to kick in after about 15km. I have no pain doing 10s or any other sport. Hmm. I have a feeling I am never going to be able to run very long distances.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 21, 2011, 12:37:27 pm
FM:
If you can run OK for 15km, this might well be a muscle-fatigue/posture thing. So fixable by a physio. I stress might, as you don't give any details, but I thought I'd try to be positive!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on March 21, 2011, 06:17:44 pm
FM:
If you can run OK for 15km, this might well be a muscle-fatigue/posture thing. So fixable by a physio. I stress might, as you don't give any details, but I thought I'd try to be positive!

I hope so - I am going to arrange an appointment when I get back from being away this week. It feels like something in the joint, but you can't always trust your feelings!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on March 26, 2011, 10:33:59 pm
First race of the season this Sunday - a chilly 10k. I'm runing to check my condition and development rather than to compete. I'll tell you how it goes.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on March 27, 2011, 08:59:14 pm
Err, that was unexpected... I was the first bloke home, and was second overall - beaten by a very nice woman, with whom I ran for the first 2km. We were totally on our own, but I dropped back just a little because my knee was giving me warning signs, which didn't end up turning into anything worse, but which did mean I was more or less 150m behind her the rest of the way. My time was just over 42 minutes, which wouldn't trouble the front end of any 10k race in a bigger city or later in the season, but that's about 3 minutes faster than I was aiming for.

Happy!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 28, 2011, 11:03:33 am
Well run FM  :thumbsup:

(I believe it's pretty rare for a woman to win a mixed sex running race so I bet she was chuffed.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on March 28, 2011, 02:07:34 pm
Well run FM  :thumbsup:

(I believe it's pretty rare for a woman to win a mixed sex running race so I bet she was chuffed.)

She certainly was, especially as she said she only 'used to be' a serious runner. She was a lovely woman, and I was really pleased for her too.

I have to say it was probably pretty embarassing for all those tall, lean young men in the race to be beaten by a woman and a little bloke, who is really a cyclist, in his late thirties!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on March 31, 2011, 01:48:00 pm
Well, I'm paying for it all now... I seem to have a stress fracture in the navicular bone of my left foot.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: JJ on April 01, 2011, 01:26:30 am
PB on the run home tonight.  46 min dead.  Yay for running in daylight!
That's still 9 min. miles mind!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on April 01, 2011, 01:37:34 pm
Just seen the official times for the 10k on Sunday - 40.49 for me. Pretty happy with that at this stage in the season, even with the fracture!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 03, 2011, 02:53:50 pm
Just seen the official times for the 10k on Sunday - 40.49 for me. Pretty happy with that at this stage in the season, even with the fracture!

Ow  :facepalm: - think I'd rather have JJs 9 minute mileing and no injury myself - hope it heals quick and you can can resist the urge to run on it before it's fixed.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on April 05, 2011, 11:03:33 am
Just seen the official times for the 10k on Sunday - 40.49 for me. Pretty happy with that at this stage in the season, even with the fracture!

Ow  :facepalm: - think I'd rather have JJs 9 minute mileing and no injury myself - hope it heals quick and you can can resist the urge to run on it before it's fixed.

Don't worry, I am res(is)ting it. And it's more to do with overtraining than the specific run on Sunday.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 25, 2011, 12:58:57 pm
The inaugural Abingdon Parkrun (http://www.parkrun.org.uk/Abingdon/home) 5k is going to be held at 9am Saturday 7th May so I'm planning to give it a go (provided I'm not totally crippled by next weekends Brevet Cymru).

From what I can gather Parkruns are free, timed, 5 kilometre running events that seem to be such a great idea they are springing up all over the place. They are 'all comers' events but it's polite to let the organisers know if you expect to take more than 50 minutes.

Already loads in London and more local to me in Reading, Swindon and Milton Keynes (not that I've done any of these). It's sort of a local volunteers supported by strong national umbrella organisation set-up (bit like audax). You have to register (for free) on the Parkrun (http://www.parkrun.com/home) website and get your barcode which works for any location.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 26, 2011, 09:09:57 am
That sounds great Nik  :thumbsup:

You didn't mention that they have corporate sponsorship - you can't have free entry without someone paying somewhere along the line!

It's good to see companies supporting REALLY grass roots level sport. Anyone can limp round 5k, and its a long way from the glamorous events sponsors usually love (especially with no mention of charidee).

I'll check the calendar, and maybe drag N along.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on May 05, 2011, 02:18:56 pm
Only a week or so until I can run again. I am just itching to get out there, but I have to be disciplined and give my foot the time it needs. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 05, 2011, 02:24:07 pm
The inaugural Abingdon Parkrun (http://www.parkrun.org.uk/Abingdon/home) 5k is going to be held at 9am Saturday 7th May so I'm planning to give it a go
...
Nik:
Can you please clarify - do we need to printout and take our "personal barcode" with us?

EDIT: doh! Yes we do - all explained in the (huge) FAQ.

Started registering; bit puzzled by how they will use my "memorable phrase". Will it be like a nickname? Will I be stuck with it?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 05, 2011, 08:08:45 pm
The inaugural Abingdon Parkrun (http://www.parkrun.org.uk/Abingdon/home) 5k is going to be held at 9am Saturday 7th May so I'm planning to give it a go
...
Started registering; bit puzzled by how they will use my "memorable phrase". Will it be like a nickname? Will I be stuck with it?

"memorable phrase"  ???  don't remember anything about one of them
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 06, 2011, 08:30:47 am
Quote
Help with registration
Registration Page

...

Memorable Phrase

Please enter a word or phrase that we can use to uniquely identify you at our events in addition to your name. Remember this is not a password; it is visible to the volunteers who record your finish position at the events and is used to make sure we credit runs to the right runners. It should be a minimum of 5 letters. Please do not use your name or you local parkrun as a memorable phrase; we will already know this from the other questions.

I expect all will become clear on Saturday!

(I think I might go for RaminphrikeshDidIWin )
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 06, 2011, 11:12:01 am
Quote
Help with registration
Registration Page

...

Memorable Phrase

Please enter a word or phrase that we can use to uniquely identify you at our events in addition to your name. Remember this is not a password; it is visible to the volunteers who record your finish position at the events and is used to make sure we credit runs to the right runners. It should be a minimum of 5 letters. Please do not use your name or you local parkrun as a memorable phrase; we will already know this from the other questions.

I expect all will become clear on Saturday!

(I think I might go for RaminphrikeshDidIWin )

Phew found it in an email they sent me - bit of a funny website in that it doesn't seem to let you login to check/alter details.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fuaran on May 06, 2011, 10:48:07 pm
Can you please clarify - do we need to printout and take our "personal barcode" with us?

EDIT: doh! Yes we do - all explained in the (huge) FAQ.

Started registering; bit puzzled by how they will use my "memorable phrase". Will it be like a nickname? Will I be stuck with it?
You usually shouldn't have to use the memorable phrase. I think it's just in case there's a problem scanning your barcode, the phrase confirms who you are (and not someone else of the same name).
If you get the weekly parkrun newsletter it has a link to your profile, which lets your change your memorable phrase etc.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 07, 2011, 12:23:35 pm
Can you please clarify - do we need to printout and take our "personal barcode" with us?

EDIT: doh! Yes we do - all explained in the (huge) FAQ.

Started registering; bit puzzled by how they will use my "memorable phrase". Will it be like a nickname? Will I be stuck with it?
You usually shouldn't have to use the memorable phrase. I think it's just in case there's a problem scanning your barcode, the phrase confirms who you are (and not someone else of the same name).
If you get the weekly parkrun newsletter it has a link to your profile, which lets your change your memorable phrase etc.


Thanks fuaran, all became clear on the day - then it became rather soggy  :thumbsup:

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 07, 2011, 06:07:10 pm
Results are up, Nik. Pretty shocking - took them at least 6 hours.

(And you still dont' appear to have won.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 07, 2011, 08:17:14 pm
Results are up, Nik. Pretty shocking - took them at least 6 hours.

(And you still dont' appear to have won.)

No but I was pleased to note those two lads that beat me are listed as 14 year olds not 9 year olds like I guessed.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on May 20, 2011, 10:24:24 pm
There's a post in here somewhere (or on yACF somewhere) about starting running that mentions the recommended rate of increase in distance etc - can anyone point me to it? Search failed.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fuaran on May 21, 2011, 03:14:49 am
There's a post in here somewhere (or on yACF somewhere) about starting running that mentions the recommended rate of increase in distance etc - can anyone point me to it? Search failed.
I'm not sure about the post you mean, but the usual advice for running is don't increase your milage by more than 10% each week. That should limit the risk of injury. See for example: The 10-Percent Rule (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-267--1051-0,00.html)
Though obviously this is a rather general rule, and won't apply for everyone.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on May 21, 2011, 10:10:37 pm
I am back running again, and my stress fracture appears to be repaired. Did my normal 10km loop this week, kept is steady at 50 minutes. My thighs felt a little off, but with all the swimming and cycling, I am generally fitter.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on May 25, 2011, 06:41:23 pm
... and after a week of running every other day, I am pretty much back up to speed. It is amazing what being generally much fitter can do. I'd not been running for almost 8 weeks, and yet, with the baseline of training I had put down over winter, and with continuing to swim and cycle during those 8 weeks, it has taken less than a week to get back to where I was. Now, to start the hard work of improving on this...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on June 06, 2011, 02:34:04 pm
Did a local 8k race this weekend for a bit of fun. It's really too short a distance for me, considering the emphasis of my training is on endurance. Anyway, my time was 32.23 and I came 24th out of 512. Pretty good, considering.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jacomus on June 08, 2011, 09:18:00 am
Nice times there FM

On Monday night I cracked out a 5.25k loop in 27m26s which I was pretty pleased with.

I'm still really struggling with the blisterception (a blister in a blister in a blister ::-) ) on the underneath of my right foot, on the edge of the arch just behind the ball of my foot - right where I land. The bloody skin is just not toughening up and it's really starting to piss me off as it is adding extra time to my runs, makes me run awkwardly every now and then and isn't much fun to have.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on June 08, 2011, 05:46:38 pm
blisterception

That is a condition I wish I'd never heard of! I will be paranoid about it happening to me now...

I hope it gets better, Jacomus.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 08, 2011, 06:53:45 pm
The inaugural Abingdon Parkrun (http://www.parkrun.org.uk/Abingdon/home) 5k is going to be held at 9am Saturday 7th May so I'm planning to give it a go (provided I'm not totally crippled by next weekends Brevet Cymru).

From what I can gather Parkruns are free, timed, 5 kilometre running events that seem to be such a great idea they are springing up all over the place. They are 'all comers' events but it's polite to let the organisers know if you expect to take more than 50 minutes.

Already loads in London and more local to me in Reading, Swindon and Milton Keynes (not that I've done any of these). It's sort of a local volunteers supported by strong national umbrella organisation set-up (bit like audax). You have to register (for free) on the Parkrun (http://www.parkrun.com/home) website and get your barcode which works for any location.

Did my first one on Saturday. (thanks to Nik & other helpers!). Numbers were down to 30-odd, but I gather there were competing events locally that day.

I trudged round in about 29min (5km-ish). This is my longest run without knee twinges in months. Kept my pace right down - at that heart rate I can cycle for at least 24hours! (Quite a useful exercise, as that is 4hour marathon pace.) So something to base future exertions on, as my knee (hopefully) becomes more reliable with more mileage.

although I expected to be near last, I wasn't prepared for how fast the pack pulled away from me. Running pathetically slowly feels a lot slower than cycling pathetically slowly.

A really nice event - like a time trial without all the kit envy! (Although we did have a nerdy chat about 'barefoot' running technology in the caff).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jacomus on June 10, 2011, 11:34:24 am
This running lark is pretty fun, though I have hit a problem - how should I be landing my feet?

There is a lot of stuff out there promoting landing on the ball/middle of the foot, which is what I tend to do. However, there is also a lot of stuff saying land on the heel and roll your foot through the step.

Has anyone got any advice?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 10, 2011, 11:54:44 am
There was quite a lot of discussion about this way back in the thread:
Cross Training: Running (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=58.msg548043#msg548043)

You could also google some of:
POSE
barefoot
forefoot
minimalist shoes

... with running. Set aside a few days to digest!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on June 10, 2011, 01:55:41 pm
This running lark is pretty fun, though I have hit a problem - how should I be landing my feet?

There is a lot of stuff out there promoting landing on the ball/middle of the foot, which is what I tend to do. However, there is also a lot of stuff saying land on the heel and roll your foot through the step.

The emerging standard seems to be to go mid-foot. The previous generation of trainers were designed for lazy, inefficient back-foot running, and there are extremists at the other end who believe we should all be fore-foot running, but most people seem to find that the mid-foot style works - it does for me. I deliberately run fore-foot sometimes for training purposes, and cyclists should be able to do this more easily than runners, actually. The thing is, that it is a result of a combination of personal physiolgy, practice and training. If you really want to get it right, you should have your gait assessed by a qualified coach or trainer, and go from there.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jacomus on June 13, 2011, 04:13:48 pm
This running lark is pretty fun, though I have hit a problem - how should I be landing my feet?

There is a lot of stuff out there promoting landing on the ball/middle of the foot, which is what I tend to do. However, there is also a lot of stuff saying land on the heel and roll your foot through the step.

The emerging standard seems to be to go mid-foot. The previous generation of trainers were designed for lazy, inefficient back-foot running, and there are extremists at the other end who believe we should all be fore-foot running, but most people seem to find that the mid-foot style works - it does for me. I deliberately run fore-foot sometimes for training purposes, and cyclists should be able to do this more easily than runners, actually. The thing is, that it is a result of a combination of personal physiolgy, practice and training. If you really want to get it right, you should have your gait assessed by a qualified coach or trainer, and go from there.

I am thinking of booking into a gait analysis session as a Runners Need has just opened close to where I work.

I've thought more about how I'm landing and practised a 5k run landing on my heels. It didn't work very well - I could feel a quick surge of pressure under my kneecap on every strike, that went away to be replaced by the pressure surge being felt in my calves and thighs when I reverted to my normal mid-foot plant.

I've decided that since a short stride mid-foot plant is what I do without thinking and doesn't leave me with sore knees, I'm probably onto a winner and should't change anything.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on June 13, 2011, 04:31:21 pm
This running lark is pretty fun, though I have hit a problem - how should I be landing my feet?

There is a lot of stuff out there promoting landing on the ball/middle of the foot, which is what I tend to do. However, there is also a lot of stuff saying land on the heel and roll your foot through the step.

The emerging standard seems to be to go mid-foot. The previous generation of trainers were designed for lazy, inefficient back-foot running, and there are extremists at the other end who believe we should all be fore-foot running, but most people seem to find that the mid-foot style works - it does for me. I deliberately run fore-foot sometimes for training purposes, and cyclists should be able to do this more easily than runners, actually. The thing is, that it is a result of a combination of personal physiolgy, practice and training. If you really want to get it right, you should have your gait assessed by a qualified coach or trainer, and go from there.

I am thinking of booking into a gait analysis session as a Runners Need has just opened close to where I work.

I've thought more about how I'm landing and practised a 5k run landing on my heels. It didn't work very well - I could feel a quick surge of pressure under my kneecap on every strike, that went away to be replaced by the pressure surge being felt in my calves and thighs when I reverted to my normal mid-foot plant.

I've decided that since a short stride mid-foot plant is what I do without thinking and doesn't leave me with sore knees, I'm probably onto a winner and should't change anything.

Good thinking.  Over-striding, which is encouraged by heelfoot strike, gives increased risk of shin splints, highly undesirable, and a shorter stride tends to encourage a faster cadence which is said to be more efficient (~180 spm seems about optimum).

Good running!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on June 26, 2011, 11:18:07 pm
Hmm. Well I got 18 hours into my non-stop triathlon, but after 3 two-hour running sessions my knees couldn't take anymore, even though I had been running very, very slowly. I guess it was a combination of running on concrete pavements and the fact that my knees just aren't capable of taking that kind of punishment any more because of all those years of football and judo. This means I am really going to have to give up on any ideas of marathons or Ironman. The swimming, on the other hand, was great. But that's for another thread...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on July 03, 2011, 10:33:37 pm
Hmm. Well I got 18 hours into my non-stop triathlon, but after 3 two-hour running sessions my knees couldn't take anymore, even though I had been running very, very slowly. I guess it was a combination of running on concrete pavements and the fact that my knees just aren't capable of taking that kind of punishment any more because of all those years of football and judo. This means I am really going to have to give up on any ideas of marathons or Ironman. The swimming, on the other hand, was great. But that's for another thread...

Impressive achievement nonetheless, well done.

Right - I've just been out for my first run in the best part of 2 decades. Even prior to that I've done very little since leaving school, where I was a crap cross country runner - obligatory for those averse to rugby or hockey.
Why?
- I feel the need to be able to burn some calories more conveniently or predictably than I can on the bike.
- I feel the need just to check that I can still actually run.
- I might, just might, do a bike / ru duathlon thing with a colleague from work. The minimum run distance is 5km; 10 km is   totally unchartered territory for me.

So - 2.5 km according to gmapspedometer, no hills but gentle rises / fall, in 15:46 - but that includes walking to the end of the street. And getting in and out of the flat. Still, it's 10 minutes a mile  :-[

Felt ok - definitely could have run further. Felt that my breathing wasn't keeping up with me after 500 m or so, but I suggested to myself that if I slowed down a bit this might improve, and it did. So it was a sort of jog, really, at a pace that I could maintain, while I tried to remind myself or learn what sort of posture works well, how to place my feet etc. Mild "stitch" about half way that went away and returned a bit towards the end when I picked up the pace a little.

Pains: lower part of calf muscle on both sides feels pretty tired; top part of shins on the outsides.

So - increase the distance or increase the pace?
And can someone suggest a few not too time-consuming post run stretches?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jacomus on July 04, 2011, 11:28:02 am
Hmm. Well I got 18 hours into my non-stop triathlon, but after 3 two-hour running sessions my knees couldn't take anymore, even though I had been running very, very slowly. I guess it was a combination of running on concrete pavements and the fact that my knees just aren't capable of taking that kind of punishment any more because of all those years of football and judo. This means I am really going to have to give up on any ideas of marathons or Ironman. The swimming, on the other hand, was great. But that's for another thread...

Impressive achievement nonetheless, well done.

Right - I've just been out for my first run in the best part of 2 decades. Even prior to that I've done very little since leaving school, where I was a crap cross country runner - obligatory for those averse to rugby or hockey.
Why?
- I feel the need to be able to burn some calories more conveniently or predictably than I can on the bike.
- I feel the need just to check that I can still actually run.
- I might, just might, do a bike / ru duathlon thing with a colleague from work. The minimum run distance is 5km; 10 km is   totally unchartered territory for me.

So - 2.5 km according to gmapspedometer, no hills but gentle rises / fall, in 15:46 - but that includes walking to the end of the street. And getting in and out of the flat. Still, it's 10 minutes a mile  :-[

Felt ok - definitely could have run further. Felt that my breathing wasn't keeping up with me after 500 m or so, but I suggested to myself that if I slowed down a bit this might improve, and it did. So it was a sort of jog, really, at a pace that I could maintain, while I tried to remind myself or learn what sort of posture works well, how to place my feet etc. Mild "stitch" about half way that went away and returned a bit towards the end when I picked up the pace a little.

Pains: lower part of calf muscle on both sides feels pretty tired; top part of shins on the outsides.

So - increase the distance or increase the pace?
And can someone suggest a few not too time-consuming post run stretches?

Neither!!

Stick to the same run for a good 2 weeks and forget about the pace, it will slowly rise all by itself.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on July 04, 2011, 02:32:09 pm
Neither!!

Stick to the same run for a good 2 weeks and forget about the pace, it will slowly rise all by itself.

Seems reasonable - since posting the above I've had a quick scan of programmes on t'web and there are lots of dire warnings about avoiding doing too much too soon and allowing the bones and joints to adapt.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jurek on July 04, 2011, 02:35:59 pm
Top tip for avoiding bone and joint grief = run on grass while you build up your strength - it's a lot easier on the joints than running on roads.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jacomus on July 04, 2011, 03:06:52 pm
Top tip for avoiding bone and joint grief = run on grass while you build up your strength - it's a lot easier on the joints than running on roads.

Having read the same thing, when I re-started running, I actually found the opposite was true.

I found the uneven footing and effort of stabilising my feet running on grass in the park was much more wearing on the ankles and uncomfortable on the knees than running on the smooth flat tarmac of the path round park.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jurek on July 04, 2011, 03:11:55 pm
Granted - it takes well maintained turf - think footy or cricket pitch, or the grass in the centre of an athletics track.

Hareing across Richmond Park is probably not easy on the joints.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on July 04, 2011, 03:49:57 pm
Top tip for avoiding bone and joint grief = run on grass while you build up your strength - it's a lot easier on the joints than running on roads.

Having read the same thing, when I re-started running, I actually found the opposite was true.

I found the uneven footing and effort of stabilising my feet running on grass in the park was much more wearing on the ankles and uncomfortable on the knees than running on the smooth flat tarmac of the path round park.

If they're not used to it, your legs won't thank you at first. But - in theory - overall wear should be much less on the softer surface.  People say they can tell the difference between tarmac and concrete in this respect. And running on that uneven surface will strengthen all the lidl balance muscles, making you less injury-prone in the long run.

Until you turn an ankle on a divet.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Flying_Monkey on July 05, 2011, 06:41:32 pm
5th (out of 90 odd) in my local 10k on Sunday. It was an extraordinarily hot and humid day so no-one was running PBs, and also considering this was only a week after I'd done 18 hours of non-stop triathlon and had to pull out with knee problems, I was quite happy with 43.00 minutes dead.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on July 06, 2011, 08:50:27 pm
Added a few hundred metres to tonight's second outing - more in search of better pavements than anything - and felt pretty comfortable - seems to be all about controlling the pace to let my breathing keep up. 3.2 km - forgot to time it  ::-)

I need to rejig the route again - woeful footpaths with lots of roots pushing up in some parts - might find a 5 km loop and get used to it for a few weeks.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Bigsybaby on July 15, 2011, 03:37:32 pm
Last year my personal Trainer got me running until I damaged my hamstrings. The physio asked why I was running. It does nothing for cyclists
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on July 15, 2011, 04:26:46 pm
Last year my personal Trainer got me running until I damaged my hamstrings. The physio asked why I was running. It does nothing for cyclists
It makes them better runners.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jakob on September 12, 2011, 10:13:11 pm
Has anyone here done any 'barefoot' running? I've just picked up a pair of Vibram Fivefingers shoes and will also use them for running. (although we rarely run more than 800meters at a time).
 I am already somewhat used to running in bare feet, as we run/jog as part of our kendo warm-up and although it's short (and indoors), we still have to land on the front part of the foot.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: loadsabikes on September 12, 2011, 10:16:58 pm
Land on the FRONT part of the foot???
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jakob on September 13, 2011, 01:12:23 am
Land on the FRONT part of the foot???

http://vimeo.com/12551218
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on September 13, 2011, 12:13:36 pm
Has anyone here done any 'barefoot' running?
This was a hot topic back in ... err hang on... Feb 2010 on this very thread!

(and going by web forums and people I meet, the idea isn't going away)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jakob on September 13, 2011, 05:24:38 pm
Has anyone here done any 'barefoot' running?
This was a hot topic back in ... err hang on... Feb 2010 on this very thread!

(and going by web forums and people I meet, the idea isn't going away)

Aha!. Well, apologies for not reading all 40 pages first :). It's unlikely that I'll every run much beyond 2.4k (Longest distance we usually run in Crossfit).
 Andy, are you still at it in the vff's?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jakob on September 15, 2011, 04:25:30 am
Haha..bailed out of the vff's today when I realized that todays workout included 4x800m running (with other stuff inbetween). I may actually have to do some running outside the gym (gasp!) to get used to these.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on September 26, 2011, 11:10:35 am
Back to the treadmill again today. Ugh. At least I can start again at just 20 minutes at 10.5kph.

I predict DOMS tomorrow although I'll try to ward it off with lots of stretching before/after.

My plan (once again) is to build up to running to/from work once a week (10.5km each way).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on September 26, 2011, 04:05:00 pm
Ugh, but at least my HR was lower than it was back in March (last time I was regularly using the work treadmill).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on September 26, 2011, 04:56:19 pm
Compression calf guards made a big difference to DOMS for me.  Am trying to run 3 times / week and (touch wood), all good so far .
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Barnsdale on October 09, 2011, 07:31:33 pm
A first and a second for me this weekend:

First Parkrun (Wormwood Scrubs, which is only a little one!)

Second proper run (other than little jogs to the shops) in my Merrell Barefoots. (feet?)

The soles of the Merrells are made by Vibram but you don't get the toes thing - I am really liking them so far.  My calves have recovered a lot quicker than after my 6km gentle run 2 weeks ago.  I could become a convert to this barefoot thing and I rather like the Parkrun idea, which I've only just discovered. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Barnsdale on October 09, 2011, 07:35:22 pm
And on a somewhat different sub-topic:

For those who say the Cross training doesn't work, I did the 105km ride of the falling leaves last weekend, with my only training on the bike being my 10km commute and a couple of 20km extensions to it in 6 weeks, the only other ride this year being 45 km.  However, I've been keeping the running going with a 7-10km run at least once a week. 

I kept up with the faster riders until the hills kicked in, then waited for my supposedly more cycling fit friend and dragged him round the rest of the course, feeling that I could have easily knocked 15 mins off my time.  I felt rather better than I had a right to, given how little time I've spent on the bike.  So Cross training works for me, but then I'm not training particularly hard at any one discipline. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on October 10, 2011, 10:46:56 am
For those who say the Cross training doesn't work, I did the 105km ride of the falling leaves last weekend, with my only training on the bike being my 10km commute and a couple of 20km extensions to it in 6 weeks, the only other ride this year being 45 km.  However, I've been keeping the running going with a 7-10km run at least once a week. 
Not many people doubt that SOME of the training effect transfers. Unfortunately your data doesn't prove much.
For example, there is no control data; have you ridden that 105km with the same training, minus the running?

The (main) question is: would you have been faster, had you spent ALL that training time on the bike?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Barnsdale on October 10, 2011, 09:35:12 pm
Of course, it's completely unscientific and my "evidence" is anecdotal. 

I'm not sure how you equate training effort between running and cycling.  But in practical terms, I can do a harder session in less time on foot than on the bike, because living in London means that it takes time to get to somewhere where I can have decent blast on the bike. 

Also anecdotally, I feel that my core body strength is better since I started running (and swimming) and I don't suffer some of the back and shoulder aches that I used to get after 2 or 3 hours in the saddle. 

I'm not a competitive specialist cyclist anyway (the most competitive events I've done have been triathlons) and if I were, my approach might be different.  But for people who don't have a lot of time for training in events where aerobic efficiency counts for more than having developed the right muscular strength/endurance, I think cross training's benefits would outweigh the advantages of specialising. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jakob on November 04, 2011, 06:24:26 am
More barefoot running preaching:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/running-christopher-mcdougall.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on November 04, 2011, 05:49:03 pm
More barefoot running preaching:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/running-christopher-mcdougall.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

Good article, thanks for the link. I feel some precision tippy-toe running on the spot training coming on (I think that's what '100-Up' amounts to, simple but makes good sense).

Probably mentioned elsewhere in this thread but worth repeating that Christopher McDougall's Born to Run (http://www.chrismcdougall.com/) is really recommended for anyone inquisitive about the barefoot running thing, not just informative but a good read too.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on December 23, 2011, 03:26:13 pm
I've started running/jogging recently. Never been a great runner as have always been heavy at 16.5st+
Now at 15st I'm finding it a lot easier, I have signed up with the parkrun website as the local run is only 1km away  :thumbsup:
3.5km and a 4km jog last week. This morning did just under 26mins for my first ever 5km

Looking at keeping this up and am thinking about a half marathon the 1st weekend in March.
With the idea of only 10% increase a week is this feasible?

Rich
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: jezzasnr on December 23, 2011, 05:32:14 pm
Keep the weight coming off as you have, then it's very much feasible.
Have shed a large pile of belly recently, I've been quite surprised at how much easier it's gotten. Speed & distance up, HR down. Physics init!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on January 01, 2012, 06:14:26 pm
I've started running/jogging recently. Never been a great runner as have always been heavy at 16.5st+

Me too. But I still can't run for even 20 minutes solidly, and my knee really hurts if I run or even walk for too long.
How long is it supposed to take from utterly sedentary to being able to run (say) 10k?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on January 02, 2012, 12:09:22 pm
All the stuff I've read says to increase the distance by 10% a week, I was up to 6km on Friday.
Went out today and felt ok at 6km so kept going, managed to do my first 10  :thumbsup: and in under an hr!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on January 02, 2012, 04:06:34 pm
All the stuff I've read says to increase the distance by 10% a week, I was up to 6km on Friday.
Went out today and felt ok at 6km so kept going, managed to do my first 10  :thumbsup: and in under an hr!!

Well done Rich  :thumbsup:

(Perhaps a couple of days recovery next before you find out why they only recomend 10% increase per week  ;))
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on January 02, 2012, 04:17:39 pm
I've started running/jogging recently. Never been a great runner as have always been heavy at 16.5st+

Me too. But I still can't run for even 20 minutes solidly, and my knee really hurts if I run or even walk for too long.
How long is it supposed to take from utterly sedentary to being able to run (say) 10k?

Well if you'd settle for 5k there's the Couch to 5k (http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml) plan which takes about 2 months - it'll take loads longer if you don't give the knee time to recover first though.

It can be slow work learning to run comfortably, we can't all be Rich.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on January 02, 2012, 04:34:57 pm
I plan to do 3 runs a week, Tue - Thurs and 1 at the weekend. Last run was Friday so I had chance to do one today. Will not run again until Thursday now.
Don't know if it helped but I ran with compression tights on today, may all be in the mind  ;D
Hope to get to a reasonable distance before the MK half marathon I've just signed up for in March  :o

Rich
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on January 02, 2012, 09:07:52 pm
I plan to do 3 runs a week, Tue - Thurs and 1 at the weekend. Last run was Friday so I had chance to do one today. Will not run again until Thursday now.
Don't know if it helped but I ran with compression tights on today, may all be in the mind  ;D
Hope to get to a reasonable distance before the MK half marathon I've just signed up for in March  :o

Rich

Sounds like you're well on target for the MK Half. If you can get it up to 11 miles by a couple of weeks before without damaging yourself then have an easy weekend taper I reckon you'll be round in under 2 hours.

I got an unplanned PB there last year - just entered for this year before it fills up, I've gone and entered the new MK marathon so it'll be good training.

(Last year's subjective waffle here (http://gastroplodder.vegebear.com/blog/2011/milton-keynes-half-2011/).)

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on January 02, 2012, 10:35:06 pm
I've gone and entered the new MK marathon so it'll be good training.

You can join Mr Abraham and AndyM from here on that one then  :thumbsup:
I'm not that daft, yet  ;D maybe next year  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on January 03, 2012, 10:40:03 am
I'm continuing to stand by what the consultant at the N&N Hospital said to me when I did my knee in three years ago:

"Your knee looks fine, but in case you are planning on taking up running - here's my advice. Don't."

I jogged alongside fboab at the weekend - to show support and solidarity you understand - and my knee was immediately complaining. Cycling and rowing will have to do.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on January 03, 2012, 07:06:54 pm
I've gone and entered the new MK marathon so it'll be good training.

You can join Mr Abraham and AndyM from here on that one then  :thumbsup:
I'm not that daft, yet  ;D maybe next year  ;)

Ah right - so when I hear the sound of hob-nail boots closing fast from behind I'll know who's about to leave me for dust  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on January 03, 2012, 07:11:33 pm
Entering a marathon sounds very daft.

I took Google and Squidge round Cheddar reservoir this evening and ran (jogged) two laps. Was a bit slow due in particular to taking a phone call on the second lap. Fastest km split was 6:38, last year I ran 1.8km in that sort of time. 7.19km including the walking bit took 56:23.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on January 10, 2012, 02:13:09 pm
13km on Sunday, legs not aching so this morning did just over 16km.
10 miles in 1.33hrs, Definitely on course for the 1/2.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on January 10, 2012, 02:23:58 pm
Wow.
In more beginners' style, I managed 2km where I ran more than I walked. Of such small steps are great journeys begun.

It's less boring than rowing or the turbo, which is the most positive thing I can yet come up with about my 'running'.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jedrik on January 10, 2012, 04:11:50 pm
It can be slow work learning to run comfortably, we can't all be Rich.
A few of us might, though.
From what I have heard from others, too: It is a recumbent thing. Riding a recumbent seems to train lots of the same muscles as running, so you can go from zero to quite impressive distances in a comparatively short time. And vice versa: Runners do really well on recumbents without suffering so much while "adapting".
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on January 10, 2012, 04:31:19 pm
I was thinking the same thing.
When I tried running yrs ago I was getting a lot of pain in my shins.
Riding the recumbent works this muscle, to the extent they are quite noticeable when you flex them.

Keep at it Lindsay, it will get easier.

Rich
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on January 10, 2012, 04:40:08 pm
I wonder if this idea will catch on in Triathlon world ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on January 10, 2012, 06:47:33 pm
It can be slow work learning to run comfortably, we can't all be Rich.
A few of us might, though.
From what I have heard from others, too: It is a recumbent thing. Riding a recumbent seems to train lots of the same muscles as running, so you can go from zero to quite impressive distances in a comparatively short time. And vice versa: Runners do really well on recumbents without suffering so much while "adapting".
This does have a ring of truth - there's something about recumbent riders position that resembles running, at least on the more laid back ones.

Keep it up Rich, I'm reckoning you'll be running the 13.1 miles in training well before the event at this rate!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on January 21, 2012, 02:19:01 pm
Did the MK Parkrun today, followed TG around but couldn't catch him.
Legs were starting to slow on the last 2km, fastest 5km I've managed though in 25.50
Great turnout for the 2nd anniversary of the run here.

Official time was 25.34 "You finished in 106th place and were the 90th gent out of a field of 297 parkrunners and you came 19th in your age category VM40-44"
Next target is under 25mins!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on January 22, 2012, 03:32:01 pm
Did the MK Parkrun today, followed TG around but couldn't catch him.
Legs were starting to slow on the last 2km, fastest 5km I've managed though in 25.50
Great turnout for the 2nd anniversary of the run here.

Official time was 25.34 "You finished in 106th place and were the 90th gent out of a field of 297 parkrunners and you came 19th in your age category VM40-44"
Next target is under 25mins!!

I reckon you'll be under 25 minutes soon enough but catching TG ... hmmm!

I volunteered at Oxford parkrun instead of running as planned yesterday as wanted to let my knee get properly better after I bashed it falling off my bike on Wednesday, managed a knackering but pleasant hilly 10 mile trail run today though so back on track.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: trixie on January 31, 2012, 11:07:20 am
I've a place in the Great Bentley (nr Colchester) half-marathon this Sunday. Never done it before but it's a big event with 100s of runners.  Anyone else in? or done it before?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on February 02, 2012, 03:31:58 pm
First 5km walk/jog of the year today!  Didn't feel too puggled at the end of it either....  No doubt I'll be sair tomorrow though....   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: bloomers100 on February 02, 2012, 03:39:27 pm
I've a place in the Great Bentley (nr Colchester) half-marathon this Sunday. Never done it before but it's a big event with 100s of runners.  Anyone else in? or done it before?

Nope but doing the Colchester half on 11th march.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 03, 2012, 10:21:29 am
I've a place in the Great Bentley (nr Colchester) half-marathon this Sunday. Never done it before but it's a big event with 100s of runners.  Anyone else in? or done it before?

I've never done it but the Runners World reviews reckon flat, fast and well organised which reflects a club mates report on it I read a couple of years ago. Fancy dress as an Eskimo might be in order  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 03, 2012, 10:24:24 am
First 5km walk/jog of the year today!  Didn't feel too puggled at the end of it either....  No doubt I'll be sair tomorrow though....   :thumbsup:
Just trying to persuade myself to get out there for a few miles cross country, temperatures almost up to minus 2!  I don't mind the cold legs and stuff - it's all that huffing and puffing sub-zero air that gets me.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on February 03, 2012, 12:06:13 pm
It's not too bad today once you get going  ;D
I've just looked at my log for January, 102km cycling 107km running!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 03, 2012, 02:46:37 pm
If I can face the bike ride over there, tomorrow's parkrun should be lovely and mud-free  :thumbsup:

[I'll probably turn an ankle on the hard ground ...  ::-)   ]

I don't mind the cold air, but then I don't really run fast enough to be truly gasping - it's really my legs holding me back at this stage, not my heart+lungs. I've always liked running in the cold, much less hassle than cycling - this is a big reason for trying to get back into it, especially in the light of   numerous dodgy wheels-vs-ice moments in recent winters.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 03, 2012, 06:51:06 pm
Likewise I'll drag myself to Oxford parkrun if the ride there doesn't seem that unreasonable at 8am tomorrow.

Great run in the cold and sun today when I eventually got out there - sort of compensation for an old man run yesterday  :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on February 04, 2012, 02:13:15 pm
I've decided to have a go at running again, my weight loss is going OK but now I'm 10.5 lbs away from target  it is getting tough.  I think a change of tack is called for.

I think the only way I'm likely to do this is to run to work.  Thing is how to carry my stuff?

The stuff in question is a large bunch of keys, a mobile phone. ID card on lanyard  and my lunch.  My lunch typically consists of one large banana, one apple and three tangerines/satsumas.

Might want to take my ipod as well.

Do they do bum bags suitable for this little lot or am I looking at some sort of back pack?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fuaran on February 04, 2012, 04:55:52 pm
Do they do bum bags suitable for this little lot or am I looking at some sort of back pack?
The sort of bum bags used for hill running should do. eg Inov8 or OMM have a few styles and sizes. This kind of thing: http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/12/17/161/index.htm
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 04, 2012, 05:42:03 pm
I've decided to have a go at running again, my weight loss is going OK but now I'm 10.5 lbs away from target  it is getting tough.  I think a change of tack is called for.

I think the only way I'm likely to do this is to run to work.  Thing is how to carry my stuff?

The stuff in question is a large bunch of keys, a mobile phone. ID card on lanyard  and my lunch.  My lunch typically consists of one large banana, one apple and three tangerines/satsumas.

Might want to take my ipod as well.

Do they do bum bags suitable for this little lot or am I looking at some sort of back pack?

Think I'd be tempted to leave a mountain of fruit at work once a week then just carry the bare minimum in a small running bum bag. I've got a running bum bag/bottle carrier and a small hydro backpack but really prefer not to use them unless I have to due to sweaty bits and bumping about.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 04, 2012, 05:59:09 pm
Apparently it was -7'c as I rode to today's parkrun - seems about right, as my breath had frozen in my buff by the time I started running! Lovely conditions for the actual run though.

Finally trusted my aging legs enough to run 'fastish' (as opposed to 'steady') from the off. Thankfully no twinges, and a PB (24:30 according to the MattC electronic timing system). Pretty knackered.

Nice to finally get below my 10mile bike time! Still a good minute behind Nik on the same course - oh well, something to aim for  ::-)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 04, 2012, 06:17:05 pm
Apparently it was -7'c as I rode to today's parkrun - seems about right, as my breath had frozen in my buff by the time I started running! Lovely conditions for the actual run though.

Finally trusted my aging legs enough to run 'fastish' (as opposed to 'steady') from the off. Thankfully no twinges, and a PB (24:30 according to the MattC electronic timing system). Pretty knackered.

Nice to finally get below my 10mile bike time! Still a good minute behind Nik on the same course - oh well, something to aim for  ::-)

Yes -7.8 when I left home at 8:15 - reckon it was a balmy minus 3 in the sunshine for the run. My second slowest to date I think but enjoyed it. Were you late again then Matt?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 04, 2012, 06:36:16 pm
How dare you sir!!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 04, 2012, 06:42:14 pm
How dare you sir!!!
If you're running next Saturday you should definitely beat my time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 04, 2012, 06:52:56 pm
Half-marathon?!?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 04, 2012, 07:09:42 pm
Half-marathon?!?

Ox parkrun tail-runner  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: trixie on February 05, 2012, 01:29:39 pm
Great Bentley half postponed! Will have to go through the agony another day...had a great walk in the snowy woods today though.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 06, 2012, 05:49:04 pm
Great Bentley half postponed! Will have to go through the agony another day...had a great walk in the snowy woods today though.

If the snow there was anything like Oxford I wouldn't of fancied racing in it, looks like they've rescheduled for 25th March so not too long to wait. Similar happened with the February Wokingham half a couple of years back and we ended up running on a baking hot day in the middle of Summer instead.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on February 07, 2012, 06:50:52 am
Another jogwithlesswalk yesterday, 38 minutes for 5k!   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on February 07, 2012, 02:30:36 pm
Suffering with ankle pain since I started running again after a year+ break. I've been trying to switch to a more midfoot strike in an effort to avoid the injuries that plague me when I run. Google suggests that this is normal for people who switch - anyone else experienced anything similar? Haven't run for several days, and just did 11km at lunch. Still slow and achy up to 7km, but then felt much better. It does feel more natural to me - so much so, I can't remember how I used to run before.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 07, 2012, 02:40:57 pm
11km sounds like a very long run for someone out of practice. :(

Of course many people would be fine, but why invite trouble?

It is certainly normal to feel achey calves if you move away from heelstrike, because the muscle does a lot more work - but I've never heard of ankle pain. My instinct is always to think that joint pain is bad. (muscle pain - not necessarily).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on February 07, 2012, 07:01:56 pm
Done 80km since Jan 18th, so have worked up to it. Also, its more of an ache than pain. There's a fair bit out  there on changing to a mid sole strike and achy ankles, so I'm not worried. Just wondering how soon it will pass. Today was much better than the last two 10kms.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on February 08, 2012, 12:31:56 pm
Erm, easy online entries has just got me signed up for the Abingdon Marathon in Oct!!
Always liked the idea of doing one, so now looks like the time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Chris S on February 08, 2012, 03:48:30 pm
I am now on week three of the Couch to 5K programme.

The good news: My knee seems fine with the idea, as long as I'm on the treadmills at the gym.

The bad news: I'm still shit at running.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: recumbentim on February 08, 2012, 03:51:08 pm
Erm, easy online entries has just got me signed up for the Abingdon Marathon in Oct!!
Always liked the idea of doing one, so now looks like the time.
Nutter!!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 08, 2012, 04:01:40 pm
Done 80km since Jan 18th, so have worked up to it. Also, its more of an ache than pain. There's a fair bit out  there on changing to a mid sole strike and achy ankles, so I'm not worried. Just wondering how soon it will pass. Today was much better than the last two 10kms.
Ah, righty-ho. Well I didn't know about ankle pains, but I did get achey calves for quite a while. So I can't really help you  :P
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 08, 2012, 05:51:48 pm
Erm, easy online entries has just got me signed up for the Abingdon Marathon in Oct!!
Always liked the idea of doing one, so now looks like the time.

See you there  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Pippa on February 08, 2012, 05:56:23 pm
I am now on week three of the Couch to 5K programme.

The good news: My knee seems fine with the idea, as long as I'm on the treadmills at the gym.

The bad news: I'm still shit at running.

I'm doing that as well. I've just done week 5 run 1. This is probably the longest I've ever consistently stuck at running which is a surprise. I don't hate it as much as I used to, but I still don't like it much. So far, no shin splints or hip issues or anything too hurty. Whoop. But I can barely call what I do running. It is not even jogging. I am so S L O W....
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on February 09, 2012, 11:28:19 am
Just ordered some Terra Plana Neos, and have been doing the 100-up drill. Going to take it very easy and rotate between my normal shoes and these for a bit, see how I get on.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 09, 2012, 01:43:56 pm
I've just read something in the parkrun newsletter about weight loss vs times. He reckoned he knocked 7secs off his 5k times for every pound lost, and that this is the same figure quoted by [some famous writing runner].

I read somewhere else that energy required to run is roughly linear with body weight. So if you change weight without gaining/losing any power/fitness, then a 14st runner taking 25min to run 5k, would hope to gain ....
yup, about 7secs per pound lost!

(Someone check my maths, but it's probably right). It can't really be a perfect linear relationship, but it's nice when these rough rules-of-thumb turn out to be pretty close to reality.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on February 10, 2012, 08:38:33 am
There's a calculator (among others) on this site that shows the same.
http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/diet/weighteffect
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on February 11, 2012, 10:33:43 am
Did the MK Parkrun today, followed TG around but couldn't catch him.
Legs were starting to slow on the last 2km, fastest 5km I've managed though in 25.50
Great turnout for the 2nd anniversary of the run here.

Official time was 25.34 "You finished in 106th place and were the 90th gent out of a field of 297 parkrunners and you came 19th in your age category VM40-44"
Next target is under 25mins!!

Looking at the splits from today's run on my phone I did it in just under 24mins!
Will have to wait for the official time though.
Was fun today with a good turnout despite the -14 temp by the lake!!

Edit: Official time of 24.13. Not under 24 but still good for an icy run :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 11, 2012, 10:58:17 am
Well done Rich :thumbsup:

We had about half the usual turnout at Oxford but it was great jogging round as tail runner. I did 12 miles yesterday so it was sort of an enforced 'recovery run'. Pretty sure the last chap scraped in under 35min which would be a PB so he was well chuffed if a little knackered. Oxford was mostly in a couple of inches of snow so bit slippy.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on February 19, 2012, 05:15:03 pm
Got a PB again this week of 23.33, it will start to get harder now  ;D
Today was the longest run so far at 20.1km in 1hr47 Looks like an under 2hr 1/2 is on the cards all going well :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 20, 2012, 05:22:40 pm
Got a PB again this week of 23.33, it will start to get harder now  ;D
Today was the longest run so far at 20.1km in 1hr47 Looks like an under 2hr 1/2 is on the cards all going well :thumbsup:

I managed a 40sec PB at Wokingham Half yesterday, 1:44:03. Last few miles felt very hard work so doubt I'll be much faster at MK - think you need to stop slacking and make sure you beat me round Rich  ;D

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on February 22, 2012, 05:18:48 pm
I've been banned.
Quote from: The Physio
Absolutely NO running or anything high impact


I'd say it was fun while it lasted but that would be a lie.
Unfortunately nothing is as free-of-charge and doable-from-your-front-door as running, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Other than cycling, which even if off-road with drops, does not really count as cross training.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on February 22, 2012, 05:41:31 pm
swim? Dull as hell but quite good for getting some solo 'thinking time'.  What about brisk walking with a backpack?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on February 22, 2012, 08:38:20 pm
Swimming is allowed, encouraged even, but neither free nor doable from my front door. It doesn't really burn enough calories, either (does it?)  I'm fairly sure the physio (& my hip & knee) would object to walking with a pack, but I'll ask her next week.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on February 23, 2012, 06:39:50 am
Have you though of speed/race walking? It's supposed to be low impact but can still be pretty cardio and can be quite fast.

Like this (but maybe not those shorts).

http://youtu.be/wct-I9UgOpg
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 23, 2012, 08:06:28 am
Swimming is allowed, encouraged even, but neither free nor doable from my front door. It doesn't really burn enough calories, either (does it?)  I'm fairly sure the physio (& my hip & knee) would object to walking with a pack, but I'll ask her next week.
I think swimming is one of those sports that CAN burn tons of energy, once you're reasonably good at it (I'm not, but most people are, I suspect).

"aggresive walking" is sort of medium-impact. I know I can walk 30 miles without problems, but an hour's running (or less) has been problematic ever since I broke my ankles (years and years ago). YMMV. Good luck
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on February 23, 2012, 09:11:43 am
I think swimming is one of those sports that CAN burn tons of energy..
otherwise sedentary people put on a swimming regime gained weight, compared to those given other exercise to do.

I fear that'd be me. Running never made me hungry, but cycling and swimming do.
I might investigate the leisure centre here in Fetfud. I could maybe run round the pool...

Can you get waterproof mp3 players & headphones?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: trixie on February 23, 2012, 09:26:38 am

I think swimming is one of those sports that CAN burn tons of energy..
otherwise sedentary people put on a swimming regime gained weight, compared to those given other exercise to do.

I fear that'd be me. Running never made me hungry, but cycling and swimming do.
I might investigate the leisure centre here in Fetfud. I could maybe run round the pool...

Can you get waterproof mp3 players & headphones?

Speedo aquabeat waterproof MP3 - I came across someone using these at the early morning swim session.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on February 29, 2012, 01:04:30 pm
Did my first run (5.5km) in my Vivabarefoot Neos today. I could feel a lot (a bit too much on a flinty path), and I now have a sense of what my big toe is for. I've been doing the 100up drill for a while, and managed not to fall into heel striking at any stage. Really enjoyed it, but can feel it in my calves.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on March 04, 2012, 07:40:47 pm
I managed a 40sec PB at Wokingham Half yesterday, 1:44:03. Last few miles felt very hard work so doubt I'll be much faster at MK - think you need to stop slacking and make sure you beat me round Rich  ;D

Think the weather was a factor today, bitterly cold and rain turning to sleet after the ride run.
You came in 4.58mins before me  ;D
Managed 1.54.02 after stopping to have a pee just before the start of the climb up to the finish.

Rich
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 04, 2012, 09:01:10 pm
I managed a 40sec PB at Wokingham Half yesterday, 1:44:03. Last few miles felt very hard work so doubt I'll be much faster at MK - think you need to stop slacking and make sure you beat me round Rich  ;D

Think the weather was a factor today, bitterly cold and rain turning to sleet after the ride.
You came in 4.58mins before me  ;D
Managed 1.54.02 after stopping to have a pee just before the start of the climb up to the finish.

Rich

That was the worse weather I've raced in yet. I kept on pace first 5 miles then just went into survival mode as my blood gave up going anywhere near my muscles in case it got any colder. At least you had the sense to dress right, I was freezing by the end. Soaked to the skin uphill into a bitter northerly and what did they give us - a bottle of water!

I was a good 5 mins behind target and managed under 1:45 on the same corse last year so reckon you'd have easly beaten 1:50 on a normal day.

Nik
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 05, 2012, 11:01:28 am
Milton Keynes half?

I was running in the Goring 10k yesterday and thanked my lucky stars I'd not entered a race longer than that. Too cold for just a shirt and shorts, I carried on through the finish line straight back to the changing area to get warm!

Yes the MK Half, bumped into Rich at the start him dressed in jacket, layers, hat and longs - me shorts, T-shirt and a refusal to believe the weather forecast. I'm told the windchill was down to minus 4 by midday.

I'm glad I didn't do Goring instead though as I'd have ridden not driven and really, really wouldn't have fancied cycling back afterwards!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gus on March 05, 2012, 03:39:17 pm
being a fat git who have taken up running, I find it easier and easier. I got a program from a certified trainer
and I have worked my way up to 10 km without stop last sunday.  :D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 06, 2012, 04:31:22 pm
What is it about racing in the rain that seems to dissolve brain cells? Isn't it obvious that cold_wind + rain => cold bodies after 40 minutes+ ?!? Has Audaxing turned me into a worrying old woman?!?

I've been reading some reports from the "Hard riders" time trials run on Sunday, mostly about an hour in duration - hardly anyone seems to have dressed for the weather. Perhaps for once riders should follow the continentals; "Cover the knees below 15 degrees"! I once had to give a rider some gloves at an April event before pushing him off.

You'll all catch your death I tell ya!!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on March 06, 2012, 04:45:59 pm
For me, this isn't cross training and its very much my main sport. I've been injured for a year (something a bit rare called nodular fasciitis- tumours on a tendon in my foot). I'm seeing a surgeon in 10 days and I might get my sport back very soon :)

I've been a cyclist for a year in the meantime. Been interesting reading back through this thread seeing cyclists using running as x training- a new concept to me lol. I'm an endurance runner and do very long events.

Who is in for what races next? I hope I might be back running marathons and ultras by the end of the year.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on March 06, 2012, 07:39:14 pm
Swimming is allowed, encouraged even, but neither free nor doable from my front door. It doesn't really burn enough calories, either (does it?)  I'm fairly sure the physio (& my hip & knee) would object to walking with a pack, but I'll ask her next week.

Swimming burns calories dependent on how hard you work and how long for. If you swim at a leisurely pace then it won't burn all that many calories but swim hard and it burns plenty - the issue might be how long you can practicably swim for. I struggle to swim front crawl for much more than half an hour.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on March 06, 2012, 07:47:40 pm
I struggle to swim front crawl for much more than half an hour.

same here, but mainly because of boredom.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on March 07, 2012, 08:19:30 am
I'm an endurance runner and do very long events.

Who is in for what races next? I hope I might be back running marathons and ultras by the end of the year.

I'd love to hear more about your experiences of doing ultras.

In  your experience, does audaxing tell you much about how to cope with ultras and vice versa?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 07, 2012, 11:05:28 am
I'm very much being a runner at the moment with cycling on the back burner. I thought the 'cross' bit in the subject referred to all that muttering to myself when I loose my rhythm waiting for a chance to cross the road.

Banbury Run 15 mile next for me then the Compton Challenge 20 and the MK Marathon at the end of April. I'm most looking forward to Compton with hills and variety and countryside.

I'd really like to be an ultra runner but I don't like pain at all and am allergic to bits of me breaking, bleeding and falling off. Just started reading Dene Karnezes 'Ultramarathon Man: Confessions of an All-Night Runner' - I suspect him of embellishing the truth for literary effect in places but still a good read so far. I might yet succumb to run/walking a LDWA 'ultra' if I survive MK and Abingdon marathons intact.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on March 07, 2012, 11:24:56 am
The major attraction of running for me is you can do a decent session in an hour, in pretty much any weather. It hardly seems worth getting the bike out for less than two (not to mention washing the damn thing every so often, and all the kit).

What's gotten me back in to running is the realisation 2 hours+ a day on the bike isn't sustainable if I move jobs, whereas nipping out in lieu of lunch is.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 09, 2012, 10:32:11 am
Those intrigued by the barefoot running thing might want a look at this 15 minute TED talk by Born to Run author McDougall (it's not new so you might already of seen it):

http://www.ted.com/talks/christopher_mcdougall_are_we_born_to_run.html

I'm not at all convinced he's got his evolutionary history right but I still find him quite inspiring.

"We are the biggest sissies in the jungle. Every other animal is stronger than we are — they have fangs, they have claws, they have nimbleness, they have speed. We think Usain Bolt is fast — Usain Bolt can get his ass kicked by a squirrel.” (Christopher McDougall)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 11, 2012, 08:58:24 pm
I think I'm just going to have to learn how ultra runners tape their feet and look after them generally. That seems to be a large part of the skill of going long.


This might not be necessary.

I've done a bit of what you might call ultra-running - 30+ mile events, won some - and apart from black toenails (occupational hazard) my feet have been fine.  Ran in walshes which were minimalist before anyone coined the term. Keep off the road as much as possible, run long in peat and mud and crap, no problem.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on March 12, 2012, 08:55:12 am
Having only done 5km in my vivobarefoots, I did 7km one day, and set off to do 10km the next. Got to 5km and my left foot said no. Seems like I've given myself some peroneal tendonitis - certainly that's where the dull ache is. It's been 4 days, and my ankle still feels too achy and weak to run comfortably on, despite liberal use of ibuprofen gel (but probably too much time on the half-pipe at the skate park).

It's achy enough that if I did run, I'd be hobbling slightly. However, it's not so bad that I can't get decent air at the skatepark. Should I rest and not worry, or should I be doing these exercises?

http://www.summitmedicalgroup.com/library/sports_health/peroneal_tendon_strain_exercises/

I knew I was meant to build up slowly, but the 5km and the 7km felt brilliant, so I got cocky.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on March 12, 2012, 09:37:55 am
Some people suffer badly with feet, others not so much.

However, I do have to say that running 30 miles (kind of a long marathon) and running 100+ miles are completely different in regards to what happens to your feet. When you get into running that distance, you do need to be looking after them really.

Having said that I love 30 mile races. Kind of go off a touch slower than marathon pace and try and hang on! Most of the events I have won have been 30-40 milers I think.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 13, 2012, 10:44:50 am
Some people suffer badly with feet, others not so much.



That is my feeling too, on  a long run there are many pain-points that can make life so miserable you just want to pull out - thighs/calves cramping, chafing of various sorts, sunburn, iffy digestion etc - that taping of feet is only a part of the challenge.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on March 13, 2012, 11:18:41 am
Vaseline is your friend. Seriously. Forget the talc, it doesn't work. Smear your feet in Vaseline :) Lots of it.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Rich753 on March 13, 2012, 11:23:31 am
and I'd suggest single layer thin socks over your vaseline soaked feet, I've always found twin-layer socks invariably find a place to crease and creases are very very bad news! snug thin socks are your friend  ;D
Title: Re: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on March 13, 2012, 12:51:03 pm
Most of the events I have won have been 30-40 milers I think.
That's not something I expect to be writing anytime soon!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 18, 2012, 09:11:12 pm
What is it about racing in the rain that seems to dissolve brain cells? Isn't it obvious that cold_wind + rain => cold bodies after 40 minutes+ ?!? Has Audaxing turned me into a worrying old woman?!?

I've been reading some reports from the "Hard riders" time trials run on Sunday, mostly about an hour in duration - hardly anyone seems to have dressed for the weather. Perhaps for once riders should follow the continentals; "Cover the knees below 15 degrees"! I once had to give a rider some gloves at an April event before pushing him off.

You'll all catch your death I tell ya!!!

I tried Granny Matt's approach at the Banbury 15 today what with a chilly northerly plus possible rain forecast and me really not wanting a repeat of Milton Keynes. Tights, shorts, compression top, gloves and vest. I got a bit warm in the second half but reckon i was a lot better off than some of the slower vest, shorts and pink flesh runners. Managed not to fade at the end like I usually do so reckon it was a good move.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on March 18, 2012, 10:01:02 pm
Nice one Nic, I did a solo half today just running around the paths of MK making it up as I went.
Didn't feel that fast and kept a steady pace all the way round. Took 2 min's off the MK half time though  :thumbsup:
Looking forward to the next ones I've booked up for, St Albans in June and another in MK in July.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: trixie on March 19, 2012, 07:34:54 am
Managed to get round the Great Bentley half marathon yesterday - first time in years I've done one.  It's a great course, really flat with just 2 bridges as 'hills'.  Very well organised and a super 'goodie' bag at the end containing a glass paperweight with 3-d image inside of two runners - and I thought the heavy object was a brick!

Managed my best time for a half, 1hr 52mins - which of course is pretty slow for serious runners but great for an old gal like me.  At 49 I thought I should give up running and take up long distance walking instead, but encouraged by yesterday I think I'll carry on into my 50s...and perhaps beyond..who knows?  :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 19, 2012, 08:16:09 pm
Managed to get round the Great Bentley half marathon yesterday - first time in years I've done one.  It's a great course, really flat with just 2 bridges as 'hills'.  Very well organised and a super 'goodie' bag at the end containing a glass paperweight with 3-d image inside of two runners - and I thought the heavy object was a brick!

Managed my best time for a half, 1hr 52mins - which of course is pretty slow for serious runners but great for an old gal like me.  At 49 I thought I should give up running and take up long distance walking instead, but encouraged by yesterday I think I'll carry on into my 50s...and perhaps beyond..who knows?  :)

Well done honor! I'd be very pleased with 1:52 if I hadn't raced for years - that would easily place you in the first half of a big race like Milton Keynes.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on March 19, 2012, 08:21:33 pm
Nice one Nic, I did a solo half today just running around the paths of MK making it up as I went.
Didn't feel that fast and kept a steady pace all the way round. Took 2 min's off the MK half time though  :thumbsup:
Looking forward to the next ones I've booked up for, St Albans in June and another in MK in July.

Thanks Rich! I can't run anywhere near race pace in training - I need the herd to carry me along. I did the other (NSPCC) MK Half a few years back and think it's slightly flatter and less crowded which I preferred. They had a deafening 'warm-up' thing at the start where lots of people wasted half their energy reserves jumping about before they'd even started the race - I avoided that bit.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on March 20, 2012, 10:14:02 am
Nice work Honor :) Hope you are really pleased.

I also don't get near race pace in training- its race pace for a reason.... I don't like running at 6 something pace in training, most of my easy running is 8 something min miles. Save the 6's for the races.

I've now seen people about my bust foot- I saw 3 surgeons at once which was useful. Its a bit of a mess!!! I have a ruptured plantar fascia, tumours on the tendon and some tunnel syndrome thing in the tendons. Having an operation to try and repair it all in July, will need to be in plaster 3 weeks very annoyingly but worth it to run again. In fact it will be worth it to walk properly lol as I've been limping on it for what feels like totally forever.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on March 20, 2012, 11:26:52 am
Feel silly posting this under your post, Lady Cav, as my problems are nothing. That said, my peroneal tendon hadn't improved despite 2 weeks of no running and loads of ibuprofen gel and tablets. I happened to check whether there was NHS physio in my area. Turns out you can self refer. I had a half hour consultation over the phone, and have applied for a face-to-face consultation.

In the mean time, I was chatting to a couple of the researchers in my dept., one who is a research physio, the other who is a personal trainer in her spare time. The personal trainer offered to do a tool assisted massage on it. Wow - the effect was immediate and incredible. I've gone from hobbling when walking to being able to run - I'm not going to, but I couldn't even push off with the ball of my foot before. She'd done it twice since, and has offered to continue doing it for another week to see if it can be fixed before the appointment comes through. It's entirely possible it could have got better on it's own, but the immediate effects are quite astonishing - shocking, even. She thinks I'll be running again by the end of next week, whereas the physio on the phone said 6 weeks. The research physio agreed with the PT that another 6 weeks off would most likely be counter-productive, but who knows (and it feels unfair to compare opinions of two people who've seen it with someone I've only spoken to over the phone).

I'm not sure what version of tool assisted massage it is she is using, but I see there are a bunch. I'll ask next time she does it.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on April 01, 2012, 03:05:10 pm
Parkrun again yesterday, times come down to 22.37 this week  :thumbsup:
Enjoying the change and looks like I'll do more running than audax this year. Will get back to it next year I suppose  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gus on April 01, 2012, 03:23:21 pm
Did my first ever 10km. today. It wasn't fast but I ran all the way.  :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on April 01, 2012, 10:43:59 pm
Well done Gus  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on April 02, 2012, 07:25:12 am
Run a total of 46km this week, which I'm pleased with after several weeks off with tendon trouble. When I start reintroducing the vivobarefoots, I'm going to do it slowly this time!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 02, 2012, 09:28:58 am
Parkrun again yesterday, times come down to 22.37 this week  :thumbsup:
Enjoying the change and looks like I'll do more running than audax this year. Will get back to it next year I suppose  ;D
Apparently you've already ridden at least 514km; that's a lot of 5ks!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 03, 2012, 06:47:04 am
Sad to read that Micah True - the mysterious, minimalist trail runner 'caballo blanco' that shows MacDougal the ropes in 'Born to Run' - has been found dead.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/46121/body-runner-micah-true-caballo-blanco-found

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 03, 2012, 06:48:53 am
Parkrun again yesterday, times come down to 22.37 this week  :thumbsup:
Enjoying the change and looks like I'll do more running than audax this year. Will get back to it next year I suppose  ;D

That's a minute faster than I can do  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on April 03, 2012, 01:01:34 pm
Sad to read that Micah True - the mysterious, minimalist trail runner 'caballo blanco' that shows MacDougal the ropes in 'Born to Run' - has been found dead.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/46121/body-runner-micah-true-caballo-blanco-found

Yes, saw that too. Sad news.

Did an 11 mile run out on various tractor tracks yesterday, and my ankle was fine. I think I'm safe to conclude I'm fixed.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 04, 2012, 07:53:31 am
Sad to read that Micah True - the mysterious, minimalist trail runner 'caballo blanco' that shows MacDougal the ropes in 'Born to Run' - has been found dead.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/46121/body-runner-micah-true-caballo-blanco-found

Yes, saw that too. Sad news.

Did an 11 mile run out on various tractor tracks yesterday, and my ankle was fine. I think I'm safe to conclude I'm fixed.

Running on tractor tracks! Don't know whether that counts as a genius ankle strengthening method or just plain masochism.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on April 05, 2012, 08:59:34 pm
They aren't that bad at the mo'. I did 13.35 miles on them tonight, which was my first half marathon distance run. Mostly I try to run between them.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: her_welshness on April 12, 2012, 12:42:14 pm
I am reading this book, 'Run Fat B!tch Run' which is about getting into running, from scratch. Basically you devise a 3-4 mile route (which begins and ends at home), which you walk at first, memorise it, walk it for around 2 weeks (3-5 times a week) and then gradually after the 10 minute warm up you start jogging, very slowly for as long as you can. Then walk the rest of the way. Each time you go out the idea is extending it until you can run it pretty much in 45 minutes. My husband says thats slow, but thats the point - its about getting to that point in the first place. I currently cycle around 22 miles a day (commuting) but my body is used to it  :-[

So I ran for about 5 minutes of the route yesterday and then walked the rest of it - my heart was really yammering away when I did the jogging bit. Today the front of my thighs are sore!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on April 12, 2012, 12:48:16 pm
Couch to 5km is one that's really popular on myfitnesspal. It confused the heck out of me, because people would say "I've just completed C25K, and now I'm doing a 10k race", leaving me thinking they had been doing 25km runs.

Anyway, C25Km sounds similar to your book

http://www.nhs.uk/LiveWell/c25k/Pages/couch-to-5k.aspx
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: her_welshness on April 12, 2012, 01:29:42 pm
Thanks DrMekon, my mate Dave has been doing the couch to 5km programme and it seems a very similar one to Run Fat B!tch Run.

LOL -  C25K! In my dreams  :o

A few minutes after that run, and looking at the view of London from Blyth Hill fields I felt remarkably good. During the run I felt like sh!t. But as the Grit Doctor says in the book 'do not expect to enjoy it - in fact - you may not even get to enjoy it'
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on April 16, 2012, 11:48:17 am
Still enjoying the running here, did my first 10k race yesterday over in Flitwick.
Good fun, but a little undulating!!
Was hoping for about 50 minutes considering the course and running in a crowd, All the 1km splits were under 5 minutes though and I finished in a time of 48.23 which I'm well happy with  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 17, 2012, 04:52:06 pm
25th May :) :) :)

Thats when my operation is happening.

I'm going to run again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on April 17, 2012, 04:55:24 pm
Loving running atm. Pass for Midhurst 600 got rescinded due to family stuff, so thinking of entering the FV Spartans 50km challenge instead. Coping with upping the weekly mileage to 40-50 mils a week, but not getting much in the way of long runs in. Haven't done anything over 15 miles yet, so may be silly.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 17, 2012, 04:59:19 pm
Thats a nice run the 50k. You can always enter it and I'm sure they'd let you change to the marathon, or even the 17 mile run on the day depending on what you fancy at the time.

Lov that event, and great BBQ at the end :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on April 28, 2012, 10:05:36 pm
update - started getting worse. Was starting to wake up with it in pain, and pain just from walking. Had NHS physio appointment on Friday. She said I've got very tight calf muscles and hamstrings (cycling's fault), and weak ankles (wearing my stiff soled SPDs as my shoes at work the cause?). She said that the combination of those with my mid / forefoot strike running is the cause of the problem. She's said no running at all for the mo', and has got me using a theraband to strengthen my ankle (rotating it left and right when it's tied to a table with a big rubber band), and doing calf and hamstring stretches. She also said that when I come back in two weeks, she wants me to bring my trainers and running shorts (she had me running up and down the ward in my pants), and she's going to work on my gait. She was saying that I should be heel striking.

FWIW, the ankle lifts she had me doing to show how weak my ankles are was a real eye opener. I can barely balance at all on one foot, and my leg was shaking all over the place.

My trainer at work fully admits she's out qualified by the physio (albeit she's got a related MSc, an unrelated PhD, and a shed load of fitness/pt qualifications), and shouldn't contradict her. That said, whilst she agreed tightness was an issue, she's suggested some different exercises, and has been doing pressure point release on my calf - hurts like a bastard, but can feel the difference in my foot immediately. She thinks short runs in my vivobarefoots would be good for strengthening my ankle, and doesn't see heel strike as a good idea.

So, on one hand I have a chartered physio saying no running and return to heel strike, and on the other, a PT saying stick with the midfoot/forefoot and go for short runs. It's going to be hard not to hit the trails at lunchtime.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 28, 2012, 10:12:43 pm
I am totally shocked that a physio has told you to heel strike. Were they drunk?!?!?!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 29, 2012, 08:21:04 am
Heel-strike creates no problem at all for many many runners. It maybe that NHS Physios are more concerned with bigger issues (like mending broken bones, or dealing with massive assymetries, dodgy hips etc etc ...); so they stick with what they know - heel strike - and then assess/fix the other problems.

I'm just guessing here, mind! And I do think that the bulk of research does NOT say heel strike is any healthier than landing further forward. Probably the opposite, but there doesn't seem to be much consensus.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 29, 2012, 08:55:06 pm
My other half is a big heel striker, and a 2.30 marathon runner- if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Many people can get away with heel striking.

I can't believe anyone would actively encourage it tho- mid/forefoot running creates a million less problems. Plus the fact it's loads more efficient- elites don't heel strike.

I'm not a physio though. But as a PT specialising in rehab, I have dealt with many runners and injuries, the heel strikers have loads more of the problems.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 30, 2012, 08:34:07 am
Good to see you out supporting at the MK Marathon yesterday Rich, you'll have noticed I'd reverted to the trail runners tactic of walking up the humpback bridge and running down the other side by that stage  :-[

On target 2 hour first half dissolved into a 4hr 30 finish. It was a truly horrible day, as bad as last time I went to Milton Keynes but twice as long. Support along the route was great though.

As I was adding to the congestion in the queue for Furzton Lake mud bath car park before the start I spotted Teethgrinder pedalling to the start.

Guess this sort of sums it up:

(http://www.wolvertongands.co.uk/mkm/images/P1050165.JPG)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on April 30, 2012, 11:16:48 am
I think most had the same tactic for the bridges. I was out on that bridge marshaling from 10.30 until 16.00. Was a good day.
Looking forward to Abingdon now :D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 30, 2012, 12:07:28 pm
I'll hopefully be in for Abingdon too. Been injured so long my GFA time has run out so I'll be looking to get a championship start time for London as I've had to enter the ballot for the first time in forever this morning. Not happy about that!!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 30, 2012, 12:53:30 pm
I'll hopefully be in for Abingdon too. Been injured so long my GFA time has run out so I'll be looking to get a championship start time for London as I've had to enter the ballot for the first time in forever this morning. Not happy about that!!!

Hope you've got your entry in - they filled up ridiculously quickly this year!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 30, 2012, 01:45:28 pm
Ballot entry done yes, but there is until December to get a championship time done and sent off. They'd just better fix the bl**dy foot!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 30, 2012, 01:46:18 pm
Ohhhhhh sorry, Abingdon, yes. Got that in when it opened :) Always fills up stupidly fast.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on April 30, 2012, 02:54:58 pm
Ohhhhhh sorry, Abingdon, yes. Got that in when it opened :) Always fills up stupidly fast.

That's proper planning, could easily have blinked and missed it! I do hope they fix your foot OK - it'll be downright embarrassing if you hop past me when I'm going flat out  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on May 02, 2012, 12:09:19 am
As I was adding to the congestion in the queue for Furzton Lake mud bath car park before the start I spotted Teethgrinder pedalling to the start.

I never knew you were running it too. That was my first marathon. I decided that the best way to train was to not bother doing too much running and go cycling instead.  ;D It was my first run in over 2 weeks and my longest run by 12 miles. The last two weeks of cycling 400 miles each weekend did lose me 5kg of blubber and I think it did make a difference.
1st 6.5 miles done in about an hour very comfortably and I wasn't breathing hard, I chatted to a few runners. I was even surprised how fast I was going because it felt so easy. I felt my legs start to get tired after that and they just got more tired as I went on and my speed kept dropping through the rest of the run. I never tried to force the pace up because I knew that I hadn't done enough running to build the strength in my legs and wouldn't be able to keep it up for another 3 hours, so I just let my speed drop until I was going really slow at the end. I only managed 4:38, so with my first quarter in about an hour, I must have got really slow at the end.
I prefered the uphills at the finish and hated the downhills. My hip flexors and thighs are tight as it is but they tightened up even more in the last 3-4 miles and downhills got pretty uncomfortable.
I found it easier than the MK half, but I might have been a bit ill that day and did push the pace because I knew that I could for a half.
I thought that the winning time of 2:41 was a bit slow for a winning time. Were all the big boys recovering from London or was it really that hard? I didn't mind the weather myself.
My legs are still stiff, but I think that when they are recovered I'll really feel the new strength in my legs from the marathon and want to go running a bit more than I did before the marathon. (I like doing things the wrong way around ;D)
I intend to get out and do some more regular running and hopefully build up to ultras. It'd be nice to actually go somewhere and see stuff instead of Milton Keynes in the pissing rain! Anyone reccommend any good Ultras for a non dedicated runner to aim for?
I'm thinking of doing some of the SW Coastal Path this Christmas too. I'll just be travelling on foot, whether running or walking. Just to see the views and see how far I get.

I never knew you were a runner Lady Cavendish. I wondered where you got all that fitness from when I rode a few miles with you on The Dean 300, now I know.
Good luck with the op, but only if it doesn't mean you'll stop cycling. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 02, 2012, 06:52:13 am
Very well done TG. And yup running means the world to me.

I've only been cycling as I'm injured so will probably stop it tbh....

I have loads of good ultra suggestions- that's my bag, PM me and let me know how far u wanna run.

2.41 is indeed a v slow time for a win- I think the 'big boys' were either recovering from VLM or Brighton, or otherwise were at Manchester or Shakespeare on Sunday which are higher profile (although Shakespeare was actually reduced to a half 5 mins before the start due to flooding)

Now can I interest you in joining my running club, the 100 marathon club? You only have 99 to go and it's full of people like you!!! You even get a nice blue vest.....
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 02, 2012, 09:16:09 am
I intend to get out and do some more regular running and hopefully build up to ultras. It'd be nice to actually go somewhere and see stuff
This is what I love about cycling. The only plus* for running is easier access to remote areas.

Only the talented (and dedicated) top level of runners can cover a decent distance across 'interesting' terrain - whilst a natural snail like me can ride something like the Dean in a day. Oxford to Wales and back. Or L-E-L in 5 days. Mostly without injury!

(There are other logistical things, like cheaper/simpler gear).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 02, 2012, 09:27:48 am
For me, running is mainly for racing anyway. But in terms of 'seeing stuff', ultras are perrrrfect for that. And no talent required fortunately :)

South Downs Way 103 mile race is beautiful, (and North Downs 100) as is the Ridgeway 85, West Highland Way 95 (Or Highland Fling 54 on some of route), some fab runs in Wales, Brecon Beacons 45 etc, and for those who don't want to run so far, there are still some fantastic trail marathons in great places. But nope, its not like riding to Wales and back in a day, which was quite cool!

Typical for me that just as I might be getting my foot back I'll need time out as I'll be too fat to run, but at least I'll hopefully be properly fixed when I'm ready to get back running. And I reckon I can still cycle for a while with a big belly.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 02, 2012, 09:31:02 am
For me, running is mainly for racing anyway. But in terms of 'seeing stuff', ultras are perrrrfect for that. And no talent required fortunately :)
Modesty is always admirable, but in this context it may undermine your argument somewhat!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 02, 2012, 09:37:14 am
Hmmm - glad to hear about the no talent bit as, like a rash adolescent on the rebound, I've just entered the Northants Ultra (http://gobeyondultra.co.uk/events/northants_ultra_shires_and_spires). It just looked like a nice day out and the Marlborough Downs 20 I was considering seems to be full.

I plan to walk run from the very start and will DNS if the weather looks crap, 7hrs 30m will do me fine. Seemed to me that I've just done most of the training and a 26 mile long 'run'  :)

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 02, 2012, 09:54:48 am
Good choice Nik, those organisers are good guys and its a nice run (although I think I got a bit lost- no change there!!) A fairly easy course, so you'll be absolutely fine. Jealous!!

All this talk is really making me want to go for a run! I'm coaching some people but just desperate to do it myself.

Cycling is an ok alterative though I spose grrrr. Although with morning sickness not so much.

So who else has got any races planned?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on May 02, 2012, 04:40:12 pm
I have a few shorter ones planned.
5 mile at Sulgrave on Monday, Greensand ridge relay in June.
St Albans half, MK half (July), maybe Robin Hood half and Abingdon marathon in Oct.
That's to start with anyway :D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on May 02, 2012, 06:23:56 pm
Now can I interest you in joining my running club, the 100 marathon club? You only have 99 to go and it's full of people like you!!! You even get a nice blue vest.....

No.
Why would I want to join a bunch of nutters who are just like me? ;)


I'll definitely do more marathons, better still, ultras. But only as a side project from cycling. I can run places I can't cycle, such as long distance footpaths, and would like to just go wild with a tent and sleeping bag on my back as well as doing events. I've sometimes been cycling in the Welsh mountains and thought it would be nice to cycle to a Youth Hostel one day, spend the next day or two on foot in the mountains, then cycling back home again. I sort of do that on my mountain bike now though. Trouble is there is too much that I want to do in cycling as well and that's just road cycling. I like my mountain bike too. I might keep running as a winter sport. Bikes take a hammering in the winter and ice is a problem. That's why I'm thinking of doing a Christmas holiday on foot this year. Days are shorter in winter too. I have a week off over Christmas and I always end up spending a lot of time cycling in the dark on Christmas tours. 8 hours a day on a bike isn't very much for me, but 8 hours on foot would be quite a lot as I won't be used to being on foot.
I also thought that doing some running would give me stronger legs for standing up all day at work. When I come home after a week or so of cycling, I will have spent hardly any time at all on my feet during that tour and when I get back to work and have to stand up all day, I notice it. I think that if I develop stronger legs for just standing up, I will feel less tired after work and more inclined to go for a bike ride as I will be feeling fresher. It does seem to be working.
Plus I think it may help fend off knee injuries from cycling. I've known a few long distance cyclists who have ended up with knee trouble, but I never have. I wonder if it's because I stand up at work all day and that it develops other muscles in my legs to counteract my cycling muscles.
I couldn't go to a gym, I have to enjoy it or I won't bother, so it has to be running for me. Walking takes too long. Plus my heart and lungs can get a workout with running.
It'd take me a long time to run 100 marathons, if I ever do. If I went for that, I'd want to do it in under a year and even then, I doubt I'd think it that much of a challenge.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 02, 2012, 07:10:44 pm
It'd take me a long time to run 100 marathons, if I ever do. If I went for that, I'd want to do it in under a year and even then, I doubt I'd think it that much of a challenge.

 :facepalm:


Only toothy could write that! :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on May 02, 2012, 07:28:28 pm
It'd take me a long time to run 100 marathons, if I ever do. If I went for that, I'd want to do it in under a year and even then, I doubt I'd think it that much of a challenge.

 :facepalm:


Only toothy could write that! :)

I think quite a lot of people could say the same if they had the free time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 02, 2012, 07:28:49 pm
It would be a challenge as it's very hard to find that many in a year. The record was recently 87 until last year, involving obviously lots of travel. I think Travis Wilcox has just broken it. Basically you need to be selected for the Brathay 10 in 10 days, because it's almost impossible to find them Sat and Sun all year round, which is almost what you need to do. 100 has certainly never been done in a year before.

There are a couple of 3 in 3 day events to help but finding 100 in a year would be v v hard to do. It might just be possible with the amount of events starting up but I'm still not sure it is.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on May 02, 2012, 07:30:58 pm
Don't runners do permanents like we do in Audax? :(
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 02, 2012, 07:32:55 pm
A marathon is a marathon race, not a 26 mile training run!!!!!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 02, 2012, 07:33:05 pm
Parkrun do :) But only for 5k :(

{Or you could do an Izzard ... money might be required :(  ]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on May 02, 2012, 07:43:10 pm
A marathon is a marathon race, not a 26 mile training run!!!!!!

I wouldn't call what I did on Sunday, "racing."
 ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 02, 2012, 07:45:47 pm
Haha!! You took part in a 'race' however :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 02, 2012, 07:58:05 pm
No wussy 'points' system for marathon runners either - if you complete a 100 mile ultra it's still only 1 marathon  :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Manotea on May 02, 2012, 08:05:33 pm
Don't runners do permanents like we do in Audax? :(
isn't that called 'going for a run'? Only real saddoes would worry about points for that.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 02, 2012, 08:06:57 pm
Unsupported trail running with at least one overnight is what they call 'fast packing', not heard of people doing it in the UK - it sort of appeals to me but suspect it's a bit tougher than Audax (you don't get to sit down most of the time for starters).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 02, 2012, 08:15:00 pm
A marathon is a marathon race, not a 26 mile training run!!!!!!

I wouldn't call what I did on Sunday, "racing."
 ;D

Well I call my attempt 'racing' though I did notice my average pace was actually slower than my longest training run  :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on May 02, 2012, 08:59:12 pm
Unsupported trail running with at least one overnight is what they call 'fast packing', not heard of people doing it in the UK - it sort of appeals to me but suspect it's a bit tougher than Audax (you don't get to sit down most of the time for starters).

I call it all, "travelling on foot," or even just going out and having fun. I'd just take a bag of stuff and a wallet full of cash and see what I feel like doing.
Running seems similar to cycling, that every style has to have a category and sub culture.

Don't runners do permanents like we do in Audax? :(
isn't that called 'going for a run'? Only real saddoes would worry about points for that.

All I did on Sunday was "go for a run." I never raced anyone, I just wanted to do the event and enjoy it as much as I could. I never got any points as far as I know, nor do I care.
I can't see what is sad about someone going for a run of marathon distance for the purpose of collecting points or whatever purpose they see fit. They could go out to do their fastest marathon without all the crowds, same as they could enter a proper marathon race event and just run round it like I did. Who cares? Whatever inspires people to go and do and who am I to tell other people what is sad or not. I think it's sad if people don't do it, whatever it may be. Doing it as an event made it easier for me. I saw it as a starting point. The same as Audax was my starting point at long distance cycling.
I enjoyed the crowds and atmosphere and did my longest ever run. I'm just a fun runner, not a competitor (the race winner could probably hop backwards faster than I can run). I run (and cycle) for my life, not just for the sake of events, which are just a part of my life.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 05, 2012, 02:46:18 pm
Here is the only sport result that matters this year:
37   Matt    23:23
61   Nik W   25:29

I thought Nik would do better with all that training he did last week, but I reckon he did his best.

I can now retire happy.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 05, 2012, 04:03:52 pm
Here is the only sport result that matters this year:
37   Matt    23:23
61   Nik W   25:29

I thought Nik would do better with all that training he did last week, but I reckon he did his best.

I can now retire happy.

Hmmmph - well I was 4th in my age category and you weren't even in it, so there!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 10, 2012, 12:59:20 pm
Ankle is finally fixed. Physio gave me theraband exercises to do and a load of calf and hamstring stretches. She said no running for 3 weeks, but my fixie got a puncture, my tandem was in the shop, my wife was using the trike, and my tourer was missing a chain. Had no choice but to run the 12 miles to work and back, did I? Done it twice since, and whereas before, I could feel a difference between my feet, even when the ankle wasn't sore, they now feel the same.

It's lucky it is fixed, because the footpath I run in on is a quagmire what with all the rain. Where it drops down into a village, I had to skate down this morning where the MTBers have churned up the whole path.

So I just entered the Fairlands Valley 50km. Got to have something to aim for.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 10, 2012, 01:11:26 pm
She said no running for 3 weeks,

...Had no choice but to run the 12 miles to work and back, did I? Done it twice since, ...

So I just entered the Fairlands Valley 50km. Got to have something to aim for.
Good grief, that's only 2 months away! I hope you're building up sensibly; maybe a marathon this weekend?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 10, 2012, 01:27:20 pm
Probably not sensibly. I've done consecutive 50 mile weeks (whilst injured but before I saw the physio) okay that have included half-marathons, but I know I'm going to have to get organised.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 10, 2012, 01:39:00 pm
I'm rather jealous of a 50-mile week whilst injured!

My progress is a bit confused at the mo, despite my epic vanquishing of Nik last week. My legs are fine* on a 25min flat-out blast (HR160ave-ish), but if I try a steadier pace (HR 130-140) I can't manage 40mins without various pains of the type I choose not to push through.
This is off a few months of sporadic runs punctuated by big bike miles. I think I need frequency, so I'm aiming to run at least 10 mins, 5 times a week from now on - treat it like building up after injury.

(It's possible that my gait is more efficient when i run fast. So I'm doing some longer sessions as fast run-walk.  )

*Tired/achy, but in healthy ways!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 10, 2012, 01:48:43 pm
Much like on the bike, I'm very much slow and steady, and never push it. My normal pace on my 6 mile route into work is 8.45 min/mile (rucksack with lunch/clothes,etc, over mixed terrain). Since I shortened my stride length and changed my strike, my pace has really dropped, but I feel much better. I doubt I could run a 45min 10km at the mo. It's difficult to think of myself as a runner - audaxer who plods a bit faster than walking is how I think of myself.

I just downloaded a training plan from http://www.scrunners.org/ultrasch.php

It shouldn't be too difficult for the next few weeks at least. The struggle will be to fit in the longer runs. I can get away with doing 10 miles each way to work, plus a lunchtime 10km, but I doubt I'll find the time to do more than a couple of 18 mile runs. Hopefully it''ll work like audaxing - my SR was on the back of just riding to work and back.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 10, 2012, 01:56:06 pm
Crikey. It'll be quite a mental test to do a 31mile "training run" !

Looks like your recent 50-mile weeks put you well on track for the event  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 10, 2012, 02:53:23 pm
You guys train in very peculiar ways.

Nice choice on the Fairlands Valley one, hope the weather is kind that day for the BBQ!

Matt- what 'progress' are you after? Faster 5ks?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 10, 2012, 03:03:26 pm
You guys train in very peculiar ways.

Nice choice on the Fairlands Valley one, hope the weather is kind that day for the BBQ!


Well you are the expert - please clue me in!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 10, 2012, 03:09:05 pm
LOL, I'm not an expert. I don't think anyone in ultra running can call themselves an expert as what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another......

Coach/PT yes, expert, no lol.

Plus, it totally depends on what you want from things. A good time on the clock, a good time during the event, somewhere in between, a 'get round in pain with as little training as possible' or 'get round feeling comfortable but having to train more' scenario.

None of these I am saying are right or wrong btw....!!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 10, 2012, 03:16:36 pm
Primary motivation is definitely "get around in as little pain as possible". My "training" can rarely exceed 2x 1hr per day, so I'm just fitting in the miles I can. I am hoping that 6 miles each way to work, plus the occasional longer run will be sufficient for 50km. To paraphrase Murakami, I want to be able to say "at least I didn't walk".
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 10, 2012, 03:22:17 pm
Long runs are without doubt the most important element, rather than the 6 mile runs to work.

Really, you need to be doing a long run one day (18-20+), with a 10ish mile run either the day before or day after a few times. I guess you can use 2 x 6m runs instead of a 10 the day before/after a long run, but 2 x 5 mile runs does not equal a 10 mile run in terms of training effect.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 10, 2012, 03:32:04 pm
Very tricky to bunk off for a couple of hours of running with a young family though. Might have to be a bit creative.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 10, 2012, 03:53:34 pm
Potentially - though I tend to have to help get them out of the house. It'll be more of a case of skipping lunch and getting in late / leaving early.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 10, 2012, 04:47:02 pm
If I had to get back from a 20 miler by 7am I'd have to set off about 3  :o

Probably a good incentive to get faster  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 10, 2012, 04:55:43 pm
My plan for the Northants Ultra is an extra slow ('race pace') 22 mile trail run with a couple of hills this Sunday then next week a faster 13 mile trail Friday, medium effort 5k parkrun Saturday then slow 10 miles Sunday to let them legs know they will be required to carry on even if they would prefer a rest. That'll have to do as then it's taper time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 10, 2012, 05:43:28 pm
Matt- what 'progress' are you after? Faster 5ks?
Goodness no. :) Not remotely worried about speed. (The Parkruns are just a nice event I can do at a convenient time, and it's been motivating to see my time come down).

I want to be an Ultra Runner!
I'd like to run further. 'Proper' long runs would be brilliant (as Steve put it, Audax on foot), but I'd settle for an hour*. I regularly ran for an hour when I was younger and found it was enough to really blow the cobwebs away, feel like you'd done something, put the demons to bed for awhile and all that jazz.

Being able to ride for 24hours (almost) non-stop makes it very frustrating to only jog for 40mins  >:(

(*given my leg fractures in '93 and subsequent joint problems )
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 10, 2012, 05:45:51 pm
I'm rather jealous of a 50-mile week whilst injured!

My progress is a bit confused at the mo, despite my epic vanquishing of Nik last week. My legs are fine* on a 25min flat-out blast (HR160ave-ish), but if I try a steadier pace (HR 130-140) I can't manage 40mins without various pains of the type I choose not to push through.
This is off a few months of sporadic runs punctuated by big bike miles. I think I need frequency, so I'm aiming to run at least 10 mins, 5 times a week from now on - treat it like building up after injury.

(It's possible that my gait is more efficient when i run fast. So I'm doing some longer sessions as fast run-walk.  )

*Tired/achy, but in healthy ways!

I would suggest you targeted the Didcot 5 (http://www.didcotrunners.co.uk/didcot5.php) race as a step up being as it's on your doorstep but I guess you'll be Bashing the Barbury that weekend.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 10, 2012, 05:51:40 pm
Have you had your gait analysed Matt, and what hurts?!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 11, 2012, 11:16:06 am
Uggh - IT band pain is a new one to me. Outside of my left knee has a dull ache, and it feels weak going down the stairs.

Running is annoying. I've never had more than a slightly uncomfortable bottom when cycling. Running makes me want new legs.

Doing IT band stretches, will leave off running until Tuesday. Anything else I can do to make it go away?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 11, 2012, 11:18:23 am
Get the foam roller on it. Best thing for it, helps more than stretching (but that will of course help too!)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 11, 2012, 11:40:35 am
Just borrowed a TPTherapy roller and had a go on it.

(http://tptherapy.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/218x146/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/u/6/u6_kit_book.jpg)

Sore!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 11, 2012, 02:19:20 pm
I've used a rolling pin instead of these over-priced bits of foam and the like! (actually the foam is a bit easier to use - but prices are still crazy)


My turn: pain is right at the top of the calf muscle, outside, feels like where it attaches to the knobbly bit (which I assume is a bit of bone, maybe the head of the shin-bone?)
If I find a nice piccie I'll try to find the posh name.

(I've had loads of other issues over the years, but this one seems to be the one with staying power in 2012. Most of the other issues went away when I switched to POSE-type running.)

If I won the lottery I'd pay a dozen physios to look at it, but I've been down that road before - lots of money, little result  :-\ Saving my cash for problems that prevent me cycling, working, or mowing the lawn.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 11, 2012, 02:21:49 pm
Yes find a nice piccie Matt, can't quite work out where you're on about lol.

When you switched to POSE, did you go to a workshop/coaching session or did you do it from the book?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 11, 2012, 02:24:56 pm
I'll give you a clue - which would have been cheaper?

[book? When there's so much hearsay and nonsense free on the internet?!? ]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 11, 2012, 02:28:42 pm
LOL, ok, fair enough. It's just that its quite hard to get it right from the book/internet/wherever you've found it!

2 weeks today till my foot gets fixed. This should be renamed the broken and injured thread- its not a great advert for running!!!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 11, 2012, 02:41:45 pm
LOL, ok, fair enough. It's just that its quite hard to get it right from the book/internet/wherever you've found it!
I do usually have more faith in professionals than Internet Experts. But I did a lot of reading about POSE, and it seemed that the only problems were from doing too much too soon (same with proper barefoot running).

2 weeks today till my foot gets fixed. This should be renamed the broken and injured thread- its not a great advert for running!!!!

Good luck. When's the first 50-miler scheduled?!?

I can't blame my injuries on running or cycling - my mistake was getting into a car on an icy night.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 11, 2012, 02:49:04 pm
Haha!! I'll just have to see 'how' fixed it is. It might yet not work at all, although I don't want to really think about that. I'd have to turn into a cyclist or something.

Supposed to be running again within 6 weeks, we'll see.....
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on May 11, 2012, 03:21:04 pm
I'd have to turn into a cyclist or something.

Some are born cyclists, some become cyclists, and some have cycling thrust upon them  ;)

Seriously, hope you get what you hope for from the op.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 11, 2012, 03:29:20 pm
Thanks :)

Whatever happens, I've found Time Trialling, which I didn't know about a year ago, and I'll carry that on, and I think I'll still do the occasional Audax, I've liked seeing new places.

And if I end up as a cyclist, so be it. I pulled out of the Mille Alba due to reasons that are no longer relevant, so I might have to think about LEL or something and whatever leads up to that! Just think, mind you. Still not sure about this no sleep thing.

But hopefully I'll be running.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 11, 2012, 03:48:26 pm
I've used a rolling pin instead of these over-priced bits of foam and the like! (actually the foam is a bit easier to use - but prices are still crazy)

Tell me about it! Fortunately, one of the researchers downstairs decided that after her PhD, she wanted to get some practical behavior change experience, so spent ten grand doing all sorts of PT training courses. However, she then got a job with us. In the absence of a client list, I'm basically been her guinea pig, and she won't take any money for it. The £150 roller kit is hers. She just shows me how to use it. In return, her office mates get to laugh at me weeping in pain.

She's doing Tough Mudder at the weekend. She's utterly self-effacing about her abilities, which will make it a complete joy if she gets around quicker that the somewhat alpha male mates of mine who are also doing it. There will be considerable teasing.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 11, 2012, 07:54:28 pm
My turn: pain is right at the top of the calf muscle, outside, feels like where it attaches to the knobbly bit (which I assume is a bit of bone, maybe the head of the shin-bone?)
If I find a nice piccie I'll try to find the posh name.

The label 'F' on this slightly odd picture shows the rough location. Of course it stops as soon as I do, so it's hard to pin down, but it really does feel like the very top of the soft tissue just before you reach bone (a bone which sadly isn't visible in this picture!). Not in the body of the muscle, certainly not in the knee joint.

(http://0101.nccdn.net/1_5/295/200/270/IT-band.jpg)

I am vaguely aware that the ITB reaches down to below the knee, and given that this has caused me knee problems while riding (now resolved, touch wood), I'm open to the idea that it's related  :-\
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on May 19, 2012, 12:40:17 pm
Did my first Parkrun this morning. As expected, painfully slow but it will be interesting to see my times improve each week, I hope.

I made the mistake of setting off too quickly but you kind of get pushed along by the pack when it starts.  I don't think I was the only one though, on the last lap I did manage to pass a few of the peeps who had dropped me earlier on.

Great fun. Highly recommended, particularly as it's free.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 19, 2012, 09:47:32 pm
More physio. This time, the physio diagnosed weak "bum" and thighs to go with my weak ankles. Reckons I've got hamstrings "like rocks". I don't know if that is a good thing.

I'm doing the foam roller on the ITB, lots of calf and hamstring stretches, more ankle lifts, and some short lunges. She reckons I lack control, which combined with the tight calves and hamstrings, is the cause of the IT band problems.

She's saying no running, but both the physio and the PT at work reckon that's a bad idea. As you can imagine, theirs is the message I prefer. Did 9 miles in, 7 miles home on Friday with no ankle pain and only a mildly tweaky left knee. Trying to follow some sort of plan for the 50km in July, albeit skipping some short runs, and doing the long run and the tired legs run on the same day.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 20, 2012, 09:02:15 am
Did my first Parkrun this morning. As expected, painfully slow but it will be interesting to see my times improve each week, I hope.

I made the mistake of setting off too quickly but you kind of get pushed along by the pack when it starts.  I don't think I was the only one though, on the last lap I did manage to pass a few of the peeps who had dropped me earlier on.

Great fun. Highly recommended, particularly as it's free.

They're great fun aren't they! It's really hard to avoid getting dragged along at the start - even with my Garmin telling me it's unsustainable it's just really hard to slow up. Ran my 18th yesterday, my slowest to date, deliberately starting near the back and just taking it easy.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 20, 2012, 09:10:01 am
More physio. This time, the physio diagnosed weak "bum" and thighs to go with my weak ankles. Reckons I've got hamstrings "like rocks". I don't know if that is a good thing.

I'm doing the foam roller on the ITB, lots of calf and hamstring stretches, more ankle lifts, and some short lunges. She reckons I lack control, which combined with the tight calves and hamstrings, is the cause of the IT band problems.

She's saying no running, but both the physio and the PT at work reckon that's a bad idea. As you can imagine, theirs is the message I prefer. Did 9 miles in, 7 miles home on Friday with no ankle pain and only a mildly tweaky left knee. Trying to follow some sort of plan for the 50km in July, albeit skipping some short runs, and doing the long run and the tired legs run on the same day.

I've also been doing less routine short mile runs to compensate for upping the length of the long runs - makes sense not to increase the overall mileage unnecessarily steeply and also I reckon the odd extra day recovery is good when running long. Deliberately slow 8 mile trail run today with full kit then just a couple of easy 4 milers next week to be rested for next Sunday's ultra.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 20, 2012, 09:19:59 am
My turn: pain is right at the top of the calf muscle, outside, feels like where it attaches to the knobbly bit (which I assume is a bit of bone, maybe the head of the shin-bone?)
If I find a nice piccie I'll try to find the posh name.

The label 'F' on this slightly odd picture shows the rough location. Of course it stops as soon as I do, so it's hard to pin down, but it really does feel like the very top of the soft tissue just before you reach bone (a bone which sadly isn't visible in this picture!). Not in the body of the muscle, certainly not in the knee joint.

(http://0101.nccdn.net/1_5/295/200/270/IT-band.jpg)

I am vaguely aware that the ITB reaches down to below the knee, and given that this has caused me knee problems while riding (now resolved, touch wood), I'm open to the idea that it's related  :-\

I used to get a lot of pain around there (F) in early audax days, both legs at different times, and it recurred when I started running but hasn't troubled recently. I'm pretty convinced that it was ITB but not the 'usual' presumed rubbing against knob of bone thing but rather a strain on the ligaments that attach the lower end to the bone.

(Last year riding fixed audax at the same time as trying to run gave me shin splints instead - I only tend to have one debilitating syndrome at a time for which I'm thankful.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 28, 2012, 04:24:42 pm
Apparently I was 3 seconds off my Parkrun PB this Sat. Quite happy, as I'm not sure I was recovered from the BCM. On Sunday I had notable calf soreness on a long [bike] climb - never had that before, must be the running.

[I say apparently, as official time was about 6 seconds slower than my stopwatch, and I never remember to press Stop until well after the line. But hey, it's just for fun, right? ]

Still working on the calf/knee pain issue ...  :-\
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 29, 2012, 04:02:26 pm
Nice work Matt :)

I'm now done and in plaster, which I'm already horribly annoyed with. But hopefully worth it :)

They have repaired my PF rupture, scraped my nodules, and moved a few nerves/tendons around and released them, drilling in to a couple of bones which apparently will help heal them.

2 weeks in plaster- I'm now on day 5 and getting frustrated. Have been going to the gym but its somewhat restrictive with what you can do!!!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 29, 2012, 04:25:34 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/9272798/Man-runs-half-marathon-in-a-hot-air-balloon.html
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on May 30, 2012, 09:16:35 am
2 weeks in plaster- I'm now on day 5 and getting frustrated. Have been going to the gym but its somewhat restrictive with what you can do!!!

Whenever anyone accuses me of having an exercise addiction, this will be used as a contrast to show I am within normal range.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 30, 2012, 09:34:40 am
2 weeks in plaster- I'm now on day 5 and getting frustrated. Have been going to the gym but its somewhat restrictive with what you can do!!!

Whenever anyone accuses me of having an exercise addiction, this will be used as a contrast to show I am within normal range.

Yes do take it easy and let yourself recover from the operation properly - I'd hate to be your foot Lady C!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 30, 2012, 09:37:45 am
I might pop over and challenge her to an arm-wrestle.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 30, 2012, 09:38:49 am
I've been doing cardio on the arm bike and doing upper body weights/core- my foot isn't getting used, its just sitting sleeping in its cast.

Matt, come on over I'm ready, I feel like popeye :) :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 30, 2012, 09:43:32 am
Really enjoyed the Northants Ultra on Sunday despite (or is that because of) it being hot and hilly - only damage seems to wobbly legs and a blister. I am going to have to resist the temptation to enter anymore of these for a while or I can see myself getting slower and slower over longer and longer distances just like audax and that isn't supposed to be the plan.

8 hour 13 min for 35 miles. Report here (http://gastroplodder.vegebear.com/blog/).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on May 30, 2012, 09:49:57 am
I've been doing cardio on the arm bike and doing upper body weights/core- my foot isn't getting used, its just sitting sleeping in its cast.

Hmmm - maybe just sleeping, maybe worrying itself sick about what's going to happen after it's release from protective custody  ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gus on May 30, 2012, 04:47:04 pm
Finally pain free. I managed a 45 minutes run today without pain in my shin, so I'm back in  business
but there are some way back to where I were 4 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 07, 2012, 11:56:13 am
From the ParkRun newsletter:

Most memorable or funniest parkrun moment:   Would be my first parkrun at Crystal Palace when I ran with my then 22 month old son. I arrived at the start and asked if it was OK to run with the buggy, I was told it would be fine, but asked to start at the back so as not to get in the way of the faster runners. To the surprise of the race director and volunteers we finished the hilly course in a respectable time of 22:19 and 3rd lady.


Anyone fancy beating that?  :o
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on June 07, 2012, 12:13:03 pm
Liz Yelling does the Poole one very regularly Matt, she does usually about 18.15-18.30 whilst pushing daughter Ruby. I'd get nowhere near that pushing a buggy lol, but give me a few weeks and I'll take down the 22.xx buggy ;)

There is a lovely lady that does the Hampshire based ones with her huskies. She won the Newbury one on Tuesday in 18 mins with her doggies :)

Hows everyones running going? My plaster comes off tomorrow woohoo so might get an idea of how long till I can get the trainers on.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 07, 2012, 12:36:05 pm
I'd get nowhere near that pushing a buggy lol, but give me a few weeks and I'll take down the 22.xx buggy ;)

Don't forget to put a kid in there!

Quote
There is a lovely lady that does the Hampshire based ones with her huskies. She won the Newbury one on Tuesday in 18 mins with her doggies :)
I think we all know that the dog "runners" are actually being pulled along - especially with something like huskies  >:(

 ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on June 07, 2012, 12:46:12 pm
They are indeed, she's quite a bit faster with the huskies. The guy in 2nd who she beat on Tuesday really kicked off about it (its a parkrun FFS!!!!). The question has been asked of PSH (Mr parkrun) and he's quite happy for the dogs to run :)

I want a husky :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on June 08, 2012, 06:37:36 am
I bought myself a new pair of running shoes last week, which has made life more comfortable.  I did laugh when they tried to flog me a pair of insoles to go with them for £45 though.

Still painfully slow but I can now run for one hour without stopping (I use the term 'run' loosely)

The less good news is that where I have been running to work I've been on the bike a lot less.  Planning a long pootle tomorrow though, weather forecast looks promising.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on June 09, 2012, 02:59:33 pm
5km walk/jog/run this afternoon (more of walk/jog, less of run)

35min 19 secs!   :thumbsup:

Tried my new running shorts too! I reckon they made me faster!   :)

Must try this parkrun sometime, although the nearest one for me is in Edinburgh.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 09, 2012, 04:13:47 pm
Did my third Parkrun this morning (third consecutive week, in fact). Really enjoying it - not something I ever imagined I'd say about running.

Our local one (Whitstable) is two laps of a course that goes along the prom (eastwards) then back along the top of Tankerton Slopes - http://www.parkrun.org.uk/whitstable/course

I started doing it partly as a way to persuade my son to do some exercise in the rugby close season, and I'm pleased to say he's really taken to it.

We ride down to the start together, and afterwards do any errands we need to do in town before riding home, so that's a good ten miles cycling on top of the run. A great way to start a Saturday. Having the organisational structure and the set time and place makes it so much easier to motivate yourself to get out and do it. And my son's keenness makes it harder for me to bottle it...

First time out, I set a pace of 5min/km on my Forerunner and finished almost bang on target in 24:56. That pace felt quite comfortable, so next time I pushed a bit harder and used the easterly wind to blow me back to the finish after the turn, so I clocked 23:44, with a 4:14 final km, which I was pretty pleased with.

Didn't do quite so well today - about halfway between those two times. The wind was a stiff westerly, which made the final leg very hard work. But what's really galling is that my son beat me for the first time. And not only that, he beat my PB by 12 seconds!

Race on... ;D

d.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 09, 2012, 04:28:11 pm
Being able to ride for 24hours (almost) non-stop makes it very frustrating to only jog for 40mins  >:(

Try to put a more positive spin on it...

The main reason I want to do more running is that my cycling fitness is such that I need to ride harder and longer to get the exercise benefit; I can get the same exercise benefit from a shorter time spent running (at least, that's how it feels).

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on June 09, 2012, 04:28:43 pm
Mmmm, makes my 29:22 look even more pathetic.  :-[  That was my first one though.

I'm hoping it will get better once I've sussed out the art of pacing- and getting fitter of course.

Which Forerunner have you got?  There seem to loads of the blighters.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 09, 2012, 05:07:22 pm
Mmmm, makes my 29:22 look even more pathetic.  :-[  That was my first one though.

It's not pathetic at all! If you're running for fitness rather than racing, the challenge to run faster is purely personal and what anyone else does has no bearing on your performance. I'm quite fit at the moment, but still no "athlete" - at least not in running terms. I'm just pleased if I can beat my own time each week. I admit it does feel good to get a high placing in my age group, but that's not the important thing and not why I do it.

Quote
Which Forerunner have you got?  There seem to loads of the blighters.

405CX. I've only had it a few weeks. I think it's been superseded by the 410, but this was an eBay purchase. You have to be careful because some of the prices on eBay are very silly.

I find the Virtual Partner feature very useful for running - you set a pace and it tells you how far ahead or behind you are, both overall and per kilometre (or mile, if you prefer), so you can speed up or slow down accordingly.

I think it will take a while to really get a feel for pacing and cadence. I'm tempted to get a Footpod to help with that, but I'm not sure it would be worth the cost...

Does anyone else use a footpod? Are they worthwhile?

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 09, 2012, 05:48:17 pm
V.nearly broke 23mins this morning. Very windy, must have cost me those few seconds  :D I'm usually almost last in my age category, but towards the front of the ladies (this is completely unplanned, I promise).

But more interestingly:
They are indeed, she's quite a bit faster with the huskies. The guy in 2nd who she beat on Tuesday really kicked off about it (its a parkrun FFS!!!!). The question has been asked of PSH (Mr parkrun) and he's quite happy for the dogs to run :)

I want a husky :)
Got stuck behind a husky (and some bloke being towed) for the first couple of km. Then when they finished, the dog tried to take out half of the finishing funnel  :facepalm:

All good fun. (If I had a tow-vehicle dog, I'd definitely go back to starting a minute after the whistle. But it's no big deal ... )
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 09, 2012, 06:03:52 pm
I'm usually almost last in my age category, but towards the front of the ladies (this is completely unplanned, I promise).

Last week, when I set my PB, I was taking pace off a fellow runner for most of the second lap. The fact that my fellow runner was an attractive female is entirely coincidental.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 09, 2012, 06:08:46 pm
The CTT have rules specifically to stop that sort of fun.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Jedrik on June 09, 2012, 06:31:17 pm
Does anyone else use a footpod? Are they worthwhile?
I do, coupled with a simple FR60. I run mostly for fun and to keep in shape, sometimes with friends, often alone on random routes. Without the pod I would not be able to compare effort to speed which in turn gives me a clue about my momentary fitness. I like a bit of book keeping for dailymile and to work out calorie allowances, too.
That said: It does help to keep a sensible pace if competitiveness tries to get the better of good sense when running in a group.   ;)

Funny thing about it: If I wear it on the right shoe, readings are short, worn on the left shoe readings are pretty correct.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on June 15, 2012, 05:10:15 pm
I don't use a footpod.......

Progress for me, but its slow. Plaster is off, but things don't look very nice. I thought I would be back in my normal shoes etc but they weren't happy enough for that and I have a stupid boot thing for 6 god damn weeks, so can't drive during that time.

I am allowed to exchange boot for a cycling shoe, its too sore at the mo for clipping in and out, but I seem ok on a spin bike, clipping the shoe in and then sliding my foot in. Much better than nothing.

I reckon its going to be another 3 months or so before running. But at least things are moving in the right direction.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on June 15, 2012, 10:07:52 pm
I was going to post a nice picture of my foot but I can't work out how to post pictures. Boohoo
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 16, 2012, 10:00:05 am
Woo! New PB - 22mins 36secs. That felt great!

Thinking about the footpod thing, I'm not sure it would really do what I want anyway - I really need some kid of metronome type device. Either that of just do more running until I get a better feel for pacing...

d.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 16, 2012, 01:07:31 pm
Woo! New PB - 22mins 36secs. That felt great!

Having uploaded my data, I wasn't entirely surprised to see that my average HR for the run was 162bpm, and my max 183 (sprint finish), which wasn't quite flat out. So still room for improvement I reckon...

I'm still absolutely buzzing from today's run though - swimming in endorphins! ;D

Might give it a miss next weekend though and do a bike time trial instead...

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on June 17, 2012, 10:31:20 am
Well done!  :thumbsup:

I managed to do 10K before breakfast this morning, shame about the time but at least it is progress.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on June 23, 2012, 01:22:42 pm
A bit to windy for cycling today (at least that was my excuse for not going for a cycle...)
Instead, a short run before lunch:

I did my usual loop, 5.5km according to bikehike, 37 minutes 5 sec.  :thumbsup:

 :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on June 23, 2012, 02:02:53 pm
No parkrun today as I didn't get in from work until after 01.00 this morning.
Going out shortly for my 9km section of the Greensand relay race from Clophill though.
Enjoying the offroad running routes at the moment, there's a trail half marathon in Royston in a couple of months that I like the sound of :)

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 23, 2012, 02:46:06 pm
So who did parkruns today?

Yup, I was too late entering the TT so did the parkrun as usual, though no PB this week - running into a very strong headwind on the return leg made it hard work. Enjoyed it as usual though.

I like the 5k distance - long enough to be interesting but short enough that you can go at it quite hard all the way - but I'm getting to the point where I'm keen to step it up a bit... There's a 7.5 mile trail round the local woods with nicely varied terrain (ie lots of up and down, some of it quite steep) that would make a good route. Tempted to have a go at that tomorrow, if my legs are up to it (I've also done a lot of commuting miles on the bike this week, so quite tired).

Quote
Still in my stupid roboboot thing- seeing surgeon a week on Friday so hope to get it off then :) Hoping to find out how long it will be before running again. Marathons may be on hold though as I have big health problems (again) and will need treatment. Just feels like I'll never get back running properly. Fed up.

Sorry to hear that, must be very frustrating. Hope it all works out for you, sooner or later.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on July 07, 2012, 01:55:17 pm
I did my second Parkrun today.  Time is down to 28.12 from 29.22... progress of sorts I suppose.

I've started having a look for a 10k later in the year, probably come unstuck but it's good to have something to aim for.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on July 07, 2012, 02:29:58 pm
Well done, Gandalf, that is good progress - knocking over a minute off your time is a significant improvement (1min = 12secs per km).

Slightly disappointed with my performance this morning - it wasn't a bad time (22:50, only 14secs off my PB), but I'd set my VP to 22:30 pace and every time I looked at it, I'm sure it said I was ahead... ???

Anyway, I enjoyed the run so I'm not too bothered.

My son's school friend seems to run consistently around the 22min mark, and finished 30secs ahead of me today, so I'll use him as a pacer next time instead of relying on my Garmin.

d.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on July 08, 2012, 07:11:52 pm
Milton Keynes Half Marathon today. My first run in over a month.
I arrived at the last minute and started at the back of the field which meant a mile or two of cross country running to get past the slow runners. My legs didn;t feel as if they'd recovered from the last 3 weeks of cycling and I could feel them after a mile. I thought I was in for a tough run but they were OK once I got into it. My feet blistered in the arches, as they do, especially with no recent running miles. It took me 2-3 miles to get into it and after 5 or 6 I really got into it, upped the pace and enjoyed it. But my lack of running miles caught up with me at about 11 miles and I slowed down again. Up to mile 12 and a went for it for the last mile.
I thought that the finish would be in the same place as the start and gave it the last bit of effort, only to find I had about 2-300m to go, now in oxygen debt from my efforts. ::-)
I slowed a bit, recovered a bit and launched my last attack.

1hr 49mins 40secs. My fastest of 3 this year by 2-3 minutes and about 7 minutes slower than my best.

Rich Forrest beat me by 2 mins 15 secs with his 1hr 47mins 25 secs.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: NikW on July 08, 2012, 08:14:04 pm
Milton Keynes Half Marathon today. My first run in over a month.
I arrived at the last minute and started at the back of the field which meant a mile or two of cross country running to get past the slow runners. My legs didn;t feel as if they'd recovered from the last 3 weeks of cycling and I could feel them after a mile. I thought I was in for a tough run but they were OK once I got into it. My feet blistered in the arches, as they do, especially with no recent running miles. It took me 2-3 miles to get into it and after 5 or 6 I really got into it, upped the pace and enjoyed it. But my lack of running miles caught up with me at about 11 miles and I slowed down again. Up to mile 12 and a went for it for the last mile.
I thought that the finish would be in the same place as the start and gave it the last bit of effort, only to find I had about 2-300m to go, now in oxygen debt from my efforts. ::-)
I slowed a bit, recovered a bit and launched my last attack.

1hr 49mins 40secs. My fastest of 3 this year by 2-3 minutes and about 7 minutes slower than my best.

Rich Forrest beat me by 2 mins 15 secs with his 1hr 47mins 25 secs.

Well done both of you - I was a good 6 minutes behind you though really enjoyed the event just taking it a bit easy and treating it as a training run. Great to run a whole half marathon in MK without getting rained on! MattC and I are running a stage of the Real Relay (http://www.endurancelife.com/realrelay/) on Thursday - Crowmarsh Gifford to Henley - so I was using that as an excuse not to trash my legs today.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on July 08, 2012, 08:41:26 pm
Was a good run in great weather. Saw neither of you there, though I did look about in case you were.
I tried using gels today, but they had me walking and jogging bits at about the halfway mark feeling rough. Just like on an audax a couple of yrs ago when it felt like it was just sitting there and not digesting.
More trial and error needed.
Was running about a 4.40min/km avg until about halfway, finished at about 5min/km

Rich

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on July 14, 2012, 04:14:35 pm
Went over to Northampton for the Parkrun with the club today.
Nice flat course compared to MK and got a PB of 21.20 down 1.18 from from my best time.
May have gone too fast at the start with 2 x 4min KMs, as I found I was slowing down for the last 3 which were roughly 25s slower.
Either way, well happy with the PB  :thumbsup:
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on July 21, 2012, 06:25:48 pm
Nice one!

No PB for me today but a good time in the rain - I'll settle for sub 23mins.

d.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 11, 2012, 10:27:23 am
21.43 on today's parkrun - 28 seconds off my previous PB, and in the two months since I started doing parkrun, I've got three whole minutes quicker. The American swimming coach is raising his eyebrows. ;D

Really good conditions today, which helped - warm and sunny, and a bit of a tailwind on the return leg. First km was 4.13, middle three were around 4.30 and the last km was 4.09. Reckon I can get that under four minutes.

d.



Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on August 26, 2012, 05:33:28 pm
Praise the Lord!!!!!!

I still don't Know if I'll get back to proper running, but finally, I ran a whole mile on Friday, and a whopping 1.5 miles today.

It feels strange with cyclist thighs.

Sticking to my racing flats for now, the less touching the bottom of my foot the better. I want running back so much. That 1st mile on Friday, a whole 7 minutes running lol was the best feeling ever
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on August 26, 2012, 05:57:31 pm
Depends on whether "proper running" means
"100 miles or further" ...

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on August 26, 2012, 06:10:42 pm
Marathon or further I guess.....

But I'm taking it a distance at a time for now..... 5k first :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on August 26, 2012, 06:18:04 pm
For Lord's Sake, take it easy until mid-September! We don't to hear about any injuries - make sure you get that SR before you're lured back to these lesser pasttimes!

p.s. just checked my records ... your initial 'recovery' 5k challenge is to beat 23:02. After that you can start looking at 'proper' running.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on August 26, 2012, 06:37:58 pm
Lol, I just checked how long it took me to run 1.5m and it was 10.20 so I will take up your challenge :) will wait till Tuesday and then go out for a daring 2 miles.

And I'm not sure about this 600, I'm not going to play the lame too tired card, but my knee is a bit bust

All running is proper, it's a proper sport :) it's just that 5/10ks aren't really my thing- it takes me that long to warm up!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on August 27, 2012, 05:34:06 pm
There seemed to be an urban orienteering race through our estate this morning. I was out testing some gear fettling, and was suddenly surrounded by somewhat 'veteran' looking folks with sweatbands and small folded maps crushed in one hand. Average speeds suggested they were out for a long time.

They were going in at least 6 different directions, so either most were lost, or there were a number of checkpoints fairly nearby. I really wanted to ask one for more details, but they looked immersed in the zone (and quite scary).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on August 27, 2012, 09:12:13 pm
Been too busy getting a job to update, but the short version is that the vivobarefoots seem to mess up my ankles at anything over 7km. NB MT110s mess up my ITB anything over 7km, and I'm fine up to at least 22km in the old Asics I started off with. Basically, so long as I only do lunchtime runs in the lightweight shoes, and keep the boats for commuting in, I'm fine.

This minimalist thing really hasn't worked for me. I suspect it's a mix of my minuscule impulse control (too much fun to run in, no point telling me to take it slow) and the wrong shoes (MT110s sloping footbed makes my knees sore really quick). two pairs of relatively unused shoes sitting in the hall means I'll be waiting a while before another experiment.

Feels great to be back running without pain. I'd like to get some decent length runs in before I move up north. Hoping to be within running distance of Ilkley Moor - new head of dept is a keen fell runner (and scarily quick!).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on August 28, 2012, 09:32:05 am
There are few people who can get away with the minimalist thing. Your form/technique needs to be pretty much verging on perfect. Glad you are running without pain though :)

I got to the heady heights of 3k this morning.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 28, 2012, 11:53:46 am
Praise the Lord!!!!!!

I still don't Know if I'll get back to proper running, but finally, I ran a whole mile on Friday, and a whopping 1.5 miles today.

Well done!

Quote
That 1st mile on Friday, a whole 7 minutes running lol was the best feeling ever

Slacker! A 7min mile is a decent time for most people - must feel a bit slow to you.  ;D

All running is proper, it's a proper sport :) it's just that 5/10ks aren't really my thing- it takes me that long to warm up!

I've been pondering what would be the cycling equivalent of a 5k run and I reckon a 10 mile TT would be about right. Funny, though - I've never really been tempted by the idea of a 10 mile TT, and yet since I've started doing Parkrun, I've found that 5k is very much my thing when it comes to running. I'm tempted to try some longer distances but I suspect I wouldn't enjoy them so much.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on August 29, 2012, 05:43:30 pm
7 minute mile is speedwork for me!

Did a 17.5km run on a mix of road and trail yesterday - no pain at all, and fine today. Fingers crossed, I'm out of the woods. Going to be a while before I don't feel panicky at the first twinge, but does feel like I'm actually injury free at the moment.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on August 29, 2012, 05:50:34 pm
I've been pondering what would be the cycling equivalent of a 5k run and I reckon a 10 mile TT would be about right. Funny, though - I've never really been tempted by the idea of a 10 mile TT, and yet since I've started doing Parkrun, I've found that 5k is very much my thing when it comes to running.
In terms of time they line-up pretty well. You won't know about the 10miles until you try one!

This sort of highlights an interesting question for me - how come Parkrun is soooooo much more popular than local 10mile TTs. Particularly with novices. Some of these people can't do 5km without walking - and yet anyone that's done some cycling can ride 10 flat miles.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on August 29, 2012, 06:22:19 pm
Parkruns are easily accessable compared to even a club TT, where you have to pay an entry fee and be a member of a cycling club. I think that running events have more in common with sportives. Anyone can join in. Parkruns can be sociable too, you can run with your mates. Can't do that in a TT unless it's a team TT.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on August 29, 2012, 06:33:30 pm
Parkruns are easily accessable compared to even a club TT,
I would say the difference is very small:

where you have to pay an entry fee
Typically £2/£3? (£1 not long ago) - that's less than most spend in the caff afterwards, and less than almost any gym/leisure centre session.


and be a member of a cycling club.
No, not really. Some events, yes. The distinction is probably hard to discover, I admit!

Parkruns can be sociable too, you can run with your mates. Can't do that in a TT unless it's a team TT.
It's only 25 minutes! There's more time spend chatting/warming up before/after. And you get to look at the results board for a TT (if you want to - you can ignore it if you want). You have to be the same speed to run together, I don't see a lot of that on Parkrun (some - yes).

So I think all your points are relevant, but I don't think they are deal-breakers. I think it's more about the image; what people THINK is the case.

Cycle-sport is still not "something anyone can do". The Londo Marathon and the like have done a great job over recent decades of making amateur running a "normal" thing.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on August 29, 2012, 07:30:36 pm
I wouldn't do a parkrun if it cost £3. (The CTT levy is £2 per rider as of this year, so the absolute minimum for a club 10 would be about £2.50)

You can ride one of the "Come and Try It" events as a non club member. We have to have the name and address of each rider on record too.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on August 29, 2012, 07:46:13 pm
Yebbut you're abnormally tight, and expect to ride 800km for that money!

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on August 29, 2012, 07:50:15 pm
OK.
You win. ;D
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 29, 2012, 09:00:46 pm
I concur with everything Lady C said, plus the fact that my local Parkrun is a lovely route along the seafront while my local 10 is along a horrible stretch of dual carriageway.

Actually, I would love to have a go at the local 10 but it's on a Wednesday evening and I can't ever get there in time cos of work, hence I've never got round to it.

I reckon I could do a 10 on my road bike in around 26-27 minutes. My 5k time is under 22 minutes but I don't think I could do a 10 in that time without a proper TT bike.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on August 31, 2012, 09:53:07 am
Citoyen- you *need* a proper TT bike :) I think you generally ride about the same pace as me (?) and with a TT bike, silly helmet etc I can ride 22 mins for a 10.

I did 4k this morning. Still painfree :) :) :) :) Next Saturday I am going to try a parkrun. Never did I think I would get so excited about a 5k- they may not have been my 'thing' before, but they are going to be now :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 05, 2012, 10:04:38 am
5k done this morning :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on September 05, 2012, 11:18:08 am
Did fives miles yesterday, arches OK but now my heels are hurting again.  Back on bike today.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 05, 2012, 01:04:04 pm
Well done, both of you!

Lady C - yes, I really need a TT bike but I'm not sure my wife would agree...

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Dibdib on September 05, 2012, 01:08:37 pm
The more I read this thread, the more I think I really should get off my arse on Saturday morning and go do another Parkrun. I can't remember my time from the last one, but it was shamefully embarassing - I think I was 101st out of 103 or something like that  :facepalm:

All I can promise now is setting the alarm clock!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 05, 2012, 01:12:08 pm
There's nothing shameful about actually getting off your arse and doing a 5k run first thing on a Saturday morning, however long it takes - doing any form of regular exercise is more than a lot of people manage.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Dibdib on September 05, 2012, 01:22:04 pm
Well I just managed to dig out my 5k PB from the depths of my email archive... My first Parkrun was 40:43 and the second was 36:14. Both probably consisted of more walking than running!

Now where did I hide my trainers...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 05, 2012, 01:27:26 pm
Nothing shameful about those times. There's no way I'll ever knock four minutes off my PB in one go! ;)

Obviously a wee bit of room for improvement, but that will come naturally if you make it a regular habit.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on September 05, 2012, 01:30:44 pm
I haven't been able to do one for many weeks due to my evil paymasters making me work Saturdays  :'(  Only two more left to do though :thumbsup:

I'm not sure challenging my son in law on my first one back is wise, but you've got to have a punt haven't you?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on September 07, 2012, 10:12:20 am
There's a good reader's letter in today's Parkrun email:

"Hello parkrun,
Having not realised that the Redcar parkrun was cancelled on Saturday 18th August, I along with around another 10 people turned up to a deserted Locke Park. Once we realised that the event wasn't on that day we decided to do the run anyway. We all dutifully lined up at the start line and off we went after a call of ready, set, go. Coming through to the finish line one of the more experienced (faster) runners was at the finish line with his stop watch shouting out our times as we went through whilst other runners had stayed to cheer us through the finish line. I am new to parkrun but I have to say this was easily my favourite parkrun so far.
Cheers,
Emma Bailey "

Makes me wonder why anyone needs barcodes, scanners, marshalls, finish funnels, websites, sponsors ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Dibdib on September 07, 2012, 10:22:23 am
There's a good reader's letter in today's Parkrun email:

"Hello parkrun,
Having not realised that the Redcar parkrun was cancelled on Saturday 18th August, I along with around another 10 people turned up to a deserted Locke Park. Once we realised that the event wasn't on that day we decided to do the run anyway. We all dutifully lined up at the start line and off we went after a call of ready, set, go. Coming through to the finish line one of the more experienced (faster) runners was at the finish line with his stop watch shouting out our times as we went through whilst other runners had stayed to cheer us through the finish line. I am new to parkrun but I have to say this was easily my favourite parkrun so far.
Cheers,
Emma Bailey "

Makes me wonder why anyone needs barcodes, scanners, marshalls, finish funnels, websites, sponsors ...

I totally agree, although I suspect the barcodes and scanners and whatnot are just the means to an end of getting those ten - or fifty, or a hundred and fifty - people in the same place at the same time. I think Parkrun's biggest sucess is creating a sociable "event" out of what can be a pretty solitary activity, especially as that's what puts me off running on my own.

This is why I'm happy to tolerate the (not that obtrusive, in my limited opinion) sponsorship at Parkruns: it's preferable to paying someone so I can run slowly around a park, but equally I'm grateful that there's someone doing all the legwork and organisational stuff so I don't have to.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on September 07, 2012, 10:28:33 am
I agree about the sponsorship - it's very un-overbearing, and non-intrusive (I need a dictionary/thesaurus).

Now while _I_ don't give a fig about websites and finish funnels, I suspect they are what attracts a LOT of parkrunners. So they're contributing to the events' success. As you say - it's about getting a load of people together, not just the few luddites like me.

[But I still like the idea of grass-roots sport that doesn't require loads of support from non-participants ... ]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 07, 2012, 11:15:47 am
For me, the organisation is very much part of the attraction of parkrun - having a set time and place to do the run motivates me to get out and do it more than if I were left to my own devices. It's also good to run with other people rather than on your own - I usually find myself running with someone of similar pace. A couple of weeks ago, I fell into step with another runner and as she flagged towards the end, I was able to give her encouragement to keep going. So there's that camaraderie too.

I do my own timing anyway, but having the official times and placings on the website just adds to the fun - though I can imagine being timed might put some people off.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Dibdib on September 08, 2012, 11:22:15 am
Bah, parkrun fail this morning. Cycled down to Westbury yesterday to do the Trowbridge run with a friend, but I packed after a lap. I was getting a bit of a niggle in my knees, and knowing I had a 35 mile ride home this afternoon I thought better safe than sorry.

Just waiting for Dev's result email to come through - I'm pretty sure he's beaten my PB on his first ever 5k, and might even be sub 30 mins. Git.  :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 08, 2012, 12:41:53 pm
Ran my first one back today. Started very tentatively, just kept it nice and easy the whole way, felt strange to run at chatting pace but I was just so pleased to be at a 'race'!!!

Made it round fine, foot survived, I dont want to put any more than that through it at the moment though, I think it only has 3-4 miles in it for now. Time fwiw was 21.40, I think I will just try and take 5-10 seconds a mile off each week until I get my confidence back, I'm too scared to try any faster running!
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 08, 2012, 02:54:44 pm
Time fwiw was 21.40

21.30 for me - new PB! And very much *not* "chatting pace" (average HR 175bpm, and 185bpm for the final km). Very pleased with my time though.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: welshwheels on September 08, 2012, 07:34:42 pm
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/423945_353788751372697_1099627364_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 09, 2012, 12:51:53 pm
Woke up too late to go on the club ride this morning but it's too nice out there to be cooped up indoors, so I went for a run instead - chose the long trail round the local woods as my route, which claims to be 7.5 miles (ie about 12km). Set my pacer for 5min/km, thinking that would be a sustainable pace. After 6km, roughly the halfway point, I was bang on that pace. Of course, the loop is mostly downhill on the way out, and mostly uphill on the way back...

I measured it at a touch over 13km on my Garmin, which included a small diversion where I missed a signpost, and it took me a total of 1:09:33. I'm pleased with that, especially as the terrain is quite heavy going in places - not to mention steep!

That's by far the longest I've run in one go for a very long time - probably since I had to do the cross country at school. Most enjoyable it was too.

I've now decided to set myself the goal of getting that down to under an hour - I reckon that should be quite achievable if I come at it fresh - my legs were feeling a bit heavy after my efforts on yesterday's parkrun. I also did about 50km on the Brompton yesterday afternoon.

I'm actually getting quite into this running lark.   :thumbsup:

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Ewan Houzami on September 09, 2012, 01:23:57 pm
I wish I could cover that sort of distance now! I've been running on and off for the last couple of years, and aim to step it up a bit more over winter as I wind down the cycling, but I still find it hard to go out on a slow jog for more than half an hour before some part of my legs/feet/hips give up. Seven years ago I could manage six mile runs with no ill effects off the back of a few 2 mile jogs and an endurance base through cycling.

There is no reason why I shouldn't be able to run that sort of distance and more again, but it's just not happening. I've done the walk/run thing, intervals, hills, and am perhaps half a stone heavier than I'd like. I'm fit enough on a bike (but not as much as I was), but I just don't seem to improving. And it takes my legs a week to recover from my measly three miles. It's quite frustrating as, like Citoyen, I really want to get into it.

Bugger it. Sun's out. I'm off for a ride!

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on September 09, 2012, 04:43:13 pm
Goldilocks, I'm in a very similar perplexment! A few pages back you'll see many posts about my ongoing niggles, but basically I've only just managed ~50mins pain-free - and that's at a really plodding pace.[yet I used to be able to do 90mins-ish, weighing 2 stone more. I could probably do more back then, just never really tried.]

Parkrun is a real bonus, cos I seem to be able to do 5km flat-out (i.e. pathetically slow by "runner" standards, but at least my heart-rate confirms I'm trying).

There seems to be no link between my running and my cycling experience. It's very odd.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Ewan Houzami on September 09, 2012, 05:37:48 pm
Mattc. Why does this happen?! I'm built like a bloomin' runner too, but feel like an effin' carthorse when I get going. One good thing I've discovered going back through this thread is this Parkrun malarkey. I've just looked at their site and guess what?  A new one started up yesterday around Hilly Fields in Brockley (which must be all of fifty yards from my front door)! As Saturday is generally my 'run' day, this couldn't be more perfect.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gus on September 09, 2012, 05:59:27 pm
I'm absolutely NOT build like a runner,(more like Obelix) but I started running earlier this year. I have just finished my first 1/2 Marathon today. Time is modest compared to many of you 2.30,31, but remember I'm still a fat git trying to loose weight.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on September 10, 2012, 07:46:18 am
Rich Forrest was a bit bigger than he is now when he started running. Back then, I was a bit faster than him. But where I did the odd run now and then, Rich stuck at it and did regular runs. He did short runs at regular intervals and built up on that where I just went for a long run (for me) Rich got faster and lost weight. He's faster than me now and probably in much better shape after a half marathon. I'm no faster at running than I was 2 years ago but I don't really do much of it.
Little and often then building up on that seems to be the way to go.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 10, 2012, 11:09:31 am
Parkrun is a real bonus, cos I seem to be able to do 5km flat-out (i.e. pathetically slow by "runner" standards, but at least my heart-rate confirms I'm trying).

My colleagues are suitably impressed when I tell them my parkrun PB, but then you get someone like Lady Cav doing about the same time and calling it "chatting pace". Makes you realise just how huge the gulf is between us diletantes and proper athletes.  ;D

Quote
There seems to be no link between my running and my cycling experience. It's very odd.

That's normal, isn't it? You use different muscles, and use them in a different way, right? I have good base fitness thanks to the cycling, but my relative level of performance is much higher on a bike.

Weight seems to be much more critical a factor for running than it is for cycling. OK, so you can't go up hills so quick on a bike when you're carrying a few extra pounds but you can still do a decent speed on the flat. With running, it's hard even on the flat when you're overweight - especially on the knees. This is why I hated running for years and have only recently started to be able to enjoy it, since I've lost weight.

The thing that struck me about my longer run yesterday was that I may not have been quick, but I had the stamina and the willpower to keep going. That certainly would not have been the case two years ago. Having said that, 13km is quite a step up from 5km. Maybe a more intermediate distance would be better for the time being...

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 10, 2012, 11:18:51 am
I'm absolutely NOT build like a runner,(more like Obelix) but I started running earlier this year. I have just finished my first 1/2 Marathon today. Time is modest compared to many of you 2.30,31, but remember I'm still a fat git trying to loose weight.

That's really not a bad time at all.  :thumbsup:

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on September 10, 2012, 11:28:26 am
Quote
There seems to be no link between my running and my cycling experience. It's very odd.

That's normal, isn't it? You use different muscles, and use them in a different way, right? I have good base fitness thanks to the cycling, but my relative level of performance is much higher on a bike.
I expect my relative performances to differ. I do more cycling, for one thing.

But they are both aerobic forms of exercise using (mainly) the big muscles below the waist. So they should respond to training in a similar way. And performance over 20-25 minutes should be a good [but not exact] predictor of performance over an hour (within the same activity!).

On a bike, most TTers have a PB average speed only slightly lower for 25 miles than 10. They don't expect to struggle to even complete the 25.

(You would expect base fitness from one to help a little in the other, but I wouldn't dare to try quantifying this effect.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Karla on September 10, 2012, 11:30:27 am
On a bike, most TTers have a PB average speed only slightly lower for 25 miles than 10.
I'm fastest over 25  :P
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 10, 2012, 11:31:24 am
Oi!!

Firstly. Big congratulations to Gus on your first half. Great stuff :)

Secondly. This pace thing is all relative. Yes, I find 7mm easy running. But that's because I've been running for years, 100-120 miles every week with a marathon or 2 (or ultra marathon) every weekend. It's not a fair comparison.

I look at all the cyclists on here doing 1200k+ rides and thinking WTF?!?!?! And the same with people who can ride 10m TTs at the 20 min mark. I'll never be able to do that. But then I don't think I'll have the inclination to ever train properly as a cyclist, because I can't find the love for it.

The weight thing is huge within running, and why so many people end up starving themselves. Every pound adds on valuable seconds per mile.

There are some very decent 5k times being thrown around in here, but the whole point of it is just to improve our own times. I've got to find another 4 minutes or so out of my foot to be back where I want to be running, but that doesn't make me a 'proper athlete' lol, just someone whose main sport it is.

However, one thing I will add is that hard running sessions are done HARD. Training runs are just that, and should be run at a training pace. Marathon runners who run say, 7 min miles for the marathon, typically train at 8mm for general running. It's not about trying to break times in routes on training runs! Let's not use me as an example as silly ultra running is a bit different. I'll use my better half. His 5k pace is a smidge over 5 min miling, 10k around 5.15-5.20, half marathon, 5.30 and marathon 5.50ish. His runs during the week (taking out the HARD sessions- tempo/intervals/marathon pace sessions) are all run at 7 min miling or thereabouts.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 10, 2012, 11:32:42 am
And yeah Matt, I hate to use myself as any sort of cycling example as I aint no cyclist, but there is 0.3mph between my 10m pace and 25m pace.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on September 10, 2012, 11:37:47 am
There's some interesting variation in terminology here.

I regard ANY exercise as "training" i.e. it has a training effect. Whereas LC seems to describe "training" and "hard" as different things!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 10, 2012, 11:38:41 am
All running is 'training'......but not all training sessions should be hard sessions....that's kind of what I meant......
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on September 10, 2012, 11:44:07 am
Watching mighty Mo Farrah run the 5000m put me in my place.
He did it in about half the time it takes me to run a Parkrun. Apparently, the Olympic 5000m final was a "slow" race. :o
I reckon I could get down to 20 min if I did it regular. 17 if I did some training, maybe even 15 if I really got into it. But I still don't think I'd find the extra few minutes to bring me up to Mighty Mo's "jogging" pace!
All good fun though... :D

As for runnng, I like it hard! (ooer missus!)
Not training properly helps make it harder for me. ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 10, 2012, 11:55:57 am
There aren't many people who can run a 15 min 5k. That's 4.49mm. The very top club runners can run a sub 16 but they are the proper race winning guys. TG, you should get into it lol!

I'll certainly never break 17- I'll take getting back under 18 though :) I miss those days :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Riggers on September 10, 2012, 12:04:54 pm
We (as in me and a couple of chums) regularly run on a Saturday morning doing 12k in around 1h 10m. We stop a couple of times at strategic points to get our breaths back. Do we enjoy it? At times. It can vary week to week how good you feel, and I'm only glad we go as a small group because, let's face it… running (or its form of staggering that we use) is boring as hell. That's what I think anyway, and that's with us running around parts of the South Downs at the back of Brighton.

What I don't get with me old psyche, is that I can spend all day cycling on me own quite happily, yet I'd need someone thrashing me quite hard with an umbrella to encourage me to run on me own.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 10, 2012, 12:05:17 pm
the whole point of it is just to improve our own times.

Completely agree. I'm getting into running purely for my own benefit, not to race against anyone else. I know there's no point comparing my times to yours (or indeed anyone else's) - it's utterly meaningless, for all the reasons you say, but it's interesting to see what other people are doing as a benchmark.

For me, the main attraction of running is to mix it up a bit - if I'm honest, I've been feeling a tad jaded about the cycling lately, so it's good to have another outlet.

Quote
Marathon runners who run say, 7 min miles for the marathon, typically train at 8mm for general running. It's not about trying to break times in routes on training runs!

I definitely need to work on my pacing for longer runs. 5k is easier because, as mattc says, you can go more or less flat out the whole way, but I can see you need an element of strategy in your approach to longer runs. It took me years to work out my pacing strategy for 200km+ audaxes, so I don't expect to pick it up straight away in running...

Quote
His runs during the week (taking out the HARD sessions- tempo/intervals/marathon pace sessions) are all run at 7 min miling or thereabouts.

That's interesting - a lot slower than race pace, then. I shall bear that in mind.

mattc - I don't think of it as "training" unless you have a specific goal in sight that you're working towards, and you're tailoring your runs towards preparing for that goal. I suppose in that sense my running is a kind of training because I'd like to ultimately build up to an Ironman, but that's a long way off yet - though maybe it wouldn't be so far off if I focused my running efforts more on that target... I'm very unscientific in my approach.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on September 10, 2012, 12:06:04 pm
Actually, I take that back. I probably could break 17, but I *won't* because I bl**dy hate 5ks and I don't do 5k training!!! All those track sprint things, bleurgh.




TGLC, you should get into it lol!

 :P
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 10, 2012, 12:07:18 pm
So. With all these 5ks being done, who's doing a 10k?!

I might enter one of the local events at some point but in the long term, my sights are set on bigger targets... 10k would be a good stepping stone though.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on September 10, 2012, 12:11:03 pm
I did almost 10km this morning, First run for just over a month though!!
Was up and around the local woods working out a route for the club on Sunday. It's been planned for a few months now so thought I'd better get out again.
Was just under the hr so fairly slow, included hills, mud, jumping puddles and brambles. Great fun  ;D
Have a trail half marathon next weekend over in Royston, that's likely to be slow and hilly also  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 10, 2012, 12:11:41 pm
I reckon I could get down to 20 min if I did it regular. 17 if I did some training, maybe even 15 if I really got into it.

Only 8 people have ever run sub-17 on my local parkrun - and that's a very flat course...

I'd like to get down to 20 minutes as a long term aim, but I'm not planning on doing any "training" to achieve it.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on September 10, 2012, 04:06:42 pm
I once ran a 6mm (actually a bit  more than 1m at 6mm pace). My HR peaked at 193. Really can't get it that high on the bike.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 11, 2012, 04:04:00 pm
Citoyen I'm sure you'll get down to 20 mins without too much trouble looking at your rate of improvement.

Tuesdays and Saturdays are supposed to be my running days for now. Couldn't do today as I had to have a blood transfusion this morning for some extra iron but I am allowed to run tomorrow :)

Not sure whether to try running a tiny bit quicker, or take it a little bit over 5k. Or just leave it where I am for a bit but that seems a little pointless. I might try a little over 5k. I don't really know what to do!

Can't parkrun this Saturday or next. The one after though I am doing a race for life with my daughters- there might be a few walk breaks in that one ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 12, 2012, 08:59:01 am
5.5k this morning. Its ok, but its like I have no foot muscles left in the bust one, its weird. They need building back up again, the foot gets really knackered! Still, progress of sorts I guess.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 15, 2012, 11:12:28 am
Woo! Another PB! 21.15 - dead chuffed with that. Feeling that 21 minutes is definitely within reach...

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on September 21, 2012, 01:27:20 pm
Right, statement of intent:
I'm gonna try a double Parkrun tomorrow. Leveraging my getting-out-of-bed-skilz honed last weekend, I'll pre-run the course then join in with the main event to help drag me round the 2nd 5km. I might even get swiped (if I finish) so you can all have a laugh. Or I could swipe at 7.5km and get an 18min PB!

[Excellent, there's a delete post button ... ]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 21, 2012, 02:40:18 pm
[Excellent, there's a delete post button ... ]

Excellent, there's a screen grab function... ;)

d.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 22, 2012, 12:12:52 pm
Three PBs in a row! And I cracked the 21 minute barrier today - recorded an unofficial time of 20.56. That's pretty much flat out all the way for me. Really buzzing now. Gorgeous morning for it too - crisp and clear. Perfect conditions. I expect quite a few people at Whitstable parkrun will have done a PB today.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on September 22, 2012, 03:16:00 pm
PBs are sooo  last season. I've moved onto new challenges:

Your time was 27:50.
 
Congratulations <blah, blah ... >. You finished in nearly last place and you came dead last in your age category. Your PB remains 22:54.


Job done (and that was despite a - somewhat steady - sprint finish) ;D
Pleased that nothing hurt after 9.5km-ish, and I found a new stretch of riverbank; deserted and peaceful, apart from the practice session for a big motocross meet  ::-) It does seem that a 20min bike ride is my best warmup strategy - which isn't a big problem, but is a hassle clothing-wise on winter mornings. Is this the slippery slope to duathlons?!? I suspect they're the wrong way round!

It was just about warmish at benson café, where I chatted with Manotea and the riders on his Audax events. Smashing morning all-round. :)
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 23, 2012, 12:32:44 am
Well done, matt. I've toyed with the idea of extending my Parkrun in similar fashion but haven't done it yet. Sounds like a good way to get a longer run in.

I was right about the stats at Whitstable today - 31 new PBs out of 157 starters (a record attendance), and about 30 first timers too. :thumbsup:

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on September 23, 2012, 02:03:13 pm
Now that it's getting decidedly more autumnal and nippy, what does the neophyte runner wear?  Apart from two pairs of shorts and two short sleeved running tops the only other running kit I possess is one long sleeved Ron Hill top and a pair of Ron Hill tracksters. Oh and two smelly Helly base layers I use for cycling.   I s'pose I'll have to get some more gear as the season progresses?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Peter on September 23, 2012, 02:08:12 pm
Don't get sucked in by the equivalent of mamil, Gandalf; if you've got a washing machine (or a wash-basin!) you've already got enough stuff!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on September 23, 2012, 02:30:09 pm
Don't get sucked in by the equivalent of mamil, Gandalf; if you've got a washing machine (or a wash-basin!) you've already got enough stuff!

Very wise! Better than spending money on fags and petrol though and much more fun ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: RichForrest on September 23, 2012, 02:40:22 pm
Now that it's getting decidedly more autumnal and nippy, what does the neophyte runner wear?

My cycle gear usually, padless bib-longs work also when it gets too cold. Long sleeved jersey with pockets for gels work also.

15 offroad miles for me today, longest run to date also.
32 of us from the local club ran out around Woburn woods and safari park, a bit stop start in places with loopbacks (where the faster runners run back past the tail-bikers) to keep it all together.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fuaran on September 23, 2012, 03:00:35 pm
I recently got some Ronhill 3/4 length tights, they are good for keeping my knees warm. Tracksters are good for colder wather.
And Helly base layers are fairly warm. Sometimes also a Montane Featherlite jacket to keep the wind off.

Plus a hat or buff and gloves can help a lot.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Feline on September 23, 2012, 03:10:09 pm
I gave up running a few years back when I had a nasty asthma attack and didn't have my inhaler with me, resulting in a freezing cold crawl home in insufficient clothing for slow walking.
These days the asthma is better under control, but I much prefer running on a treadmill where if I get in trouble I can just stop. How does treadmill running speed and difficulty compare to real life running?
If I get up to a decent pace on it am I likely to be able to reproduce that if I then started running outdoors?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on September 23, 2012, 04:13:11 pm
...
How does treadmill running speed and difficulty compare to real life running?
If I get up to a decent pace on it am I likely to be able to reproduce that if I then started running outdoors?

i find it very similar (15kph is hard work both on the treadmill and outside)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Feline on September 23, 2012, 04:37:00 pm
...
How does treadmill running speed and difficulty compare to real life running?
If I get up to a decent pace on it am I likely to be able to reproduce that if I then started running outdoors?

i find it very similar (15kph is hard work both on the treadmill and outside)

What incline % do you set the treadmill on?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on September 23, 2012, 05:47:28 pm
hmm, zero.. my running "training" was once a week after a spinning class, usually 3km @13kph
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on September 24, 2012, 12:21:34 pm
IME the difference is wind resistance and impact. Running the same pace on tarmac is much harder on my legs (in terms of post exercise discomfort) than running on a treadmill, which has a much more friendly surface.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 28, 2012, 01:35:06 pm
Running on a treadmill is never going to be the same as running outside, but there is a time and place for treadmills. However, I'm really against setting them on an incline- you hear a load of rubbish about 1-2% making the same as outside. Nonsense, it can't replicate running outside, but having it on an incline just stresses the achilles. I do use them often though, and of course are good for pace management if you are not good at it.

So. The big one is happening today. Spartathlon. I've never run this but would love to. A few friends have gone out there to run. Lizzy Hawker if anyone has heard of her is having a stormer. Unfortunately, 4 out of my 5 close friends running it have pulled out at 'only' the 30 mile checkpoint. They are all ill and throwing up- all staying in same hotel...... gutted for them.

Will be mainly watching the live feed this afternoon. Brutal race.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on September 28, 2012, 01:40:47 pm
two hundred and forty five kilometres ??  I thought audax was bad!

bonkers.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 28, 2012, 02:35:30 pm
It does sound insane to a non-runner, but I expect it's roughly equivalent to doing a 600km audax.

I'm staggered at the record time though - 20hrs 25mins. That's really insane.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 28, 2012, 02:52:57 pm
Now I am no longer a 600k virgin, I think that running 150 miles is quite a lot harder than cycling 600k.....just my opinion though.

Your opinion on this matter counts for an awful lot more than mine, given that I've only done one 600km audax and never even run 10 miles...

Reading up a bit more about the Spartathlon, it sounds like a pretty tough route too - not exactly flat, easy terrain!

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 28, 2012, 02:55:24 pm
It has pretty harsh cut offs along the way which is what makes it so difficult, its certainly not a race for the average fun runner. No dawdling en route or you're out!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 28, 2012, 04:29:43 pm
Back to more modest ambitions...

My overriding goal in life at the moment (apart from finding a new job) is to get my Parkrun time down to 20 minutes. I did my first Parkrun on 26th May this year in 24:56 and set a new PB last week on my 16th Parkrun of 20:56. Four minutes improvement in four months. Quite pleased with that. I suspect shaving off that last minute is going to be a bit harder than the other four, but I'm thinking I might be able to achieve it before my 40th birthday, 29th December - which happens to be a Saturday, and would be my 31st Parkrun if I don't miss any weeks between now and then...

More importantly, having set a PB for three consecutive weeks, I need to set another this week - it occurred to me after last week's run that I might possibly be in line for the monthly prize, which is quite an incentive (the prize being a new pair of running shoes). However, a brief perusal of the results reveals that another runner has also set three consecutive PBs, and over her 22 Parkruns to date has brought her time down from 32:35 to 25:16, breaking her PB 13 times. Personally, if it were me giving out the prizes, I'd probably choose her over me. Dash it! So I reckon my only hope is to set another PB this week and hope she doesn't.  ;D

Anyway, fair play to her if she gets the prize. I'll still be pretty pleased if I can edge another bit closer to that 20 minute mark.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on September 28, 2012, 04:37:36 pm
Citoyen its great improvement indeed. What running are you doing in between the parkruns? Are you wanting to do anything specific to get yourself to a 19.59 (possible quite soon I'd have thought) or are you just going to wait and see if it happens on its own just from doing more parkruns?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 28, 2012, 05:13:56 pm
Parkrun is pretty much the only running I'm doing. I'd like to do a bit more, but finding the time to fit it in is the difficulty. One of my fellow commuters (a veteran ironman) runs to Faversham before getting on the train some mornings (about 6 miles), so I could try that.

I just googled for "how to run 5k sub 20 minutes" and that's when I realised it's a very big deal for a lot of people. All these "training plans" and what have you... that's not really my style.  ;D

It'll be a big deal for me too, of course, but I see it as a very realistic, achievable target rather than something that needs special training (but only because I'm already at a decent level of fitness) - it's about 70% on the age graded scale, which I think is a decent standard to aspire to. Now, if it were 19 minutes I were aiming at, that would be another matter...

My usual tactic is just to set the pacer on my Garmin to the time I want to achieve and try to keep up with it. I'll be setting it to 4:12min/km for tomorrow's run (exactly 21 minute pace). The first km is completely flat and usually has a tailwind, so I try to take advantage by setting out quite fast to get some time in the bank, then I settle down to a steady pace for the middle section, and flat out in the home stretch (I've been recording an average HR of 180-185bpm for that final km, so it really is close to maximum effort).

d.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 29, 2012, 12:06:06 pm
My nose was running faster than my legs this morning…

And there was a stinker of a headwind in the home straight…

But 21:19 is ok. Maybe I need to temper my expectations a bit!

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on September 30, 2012, 07:17:43 pm
Did 15.08 miles in 1h59m on friday, with my work rucksack on. Was chuffed as it's the furthest I've run so far, and I felt great. Legs have felt okay since. I'm hoping that short lunchtime runs in my vivobarefoots and then longer runs in my Asics on Fridays is a pattern that'll keep me injury free.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on October 03, 2012, 09:42:14 am
Nice one LC. Despite the fact that you make my puny efforts look ... even punyer, that is great news.
Especially the "painfree" bit!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 03, 2012, 10:08:23 am
Did 15.08 miles in 1h59m on friday, with my work rucksack on.

Do you have a running-specific rucksack? Any recommendations in that department?

Quote
Was chuffed as it's the furthest I've run so far, and I felt great. Legs have felt okay since.

 :thumbsup:

I didn't even notice my foot. Its still not hurting. Proper painfree today.

 :thumbsup:

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on October 03, 2012, 10:20:29 am
Osprey Talon's are good (they are about £70 though....), and I like my OMM Last drop.

Last drop is great for lower loads - 10/12/15 litre ones. Both of those have hydration bladder doodahs if you want them.

Talon (22l, but actually more like 25l) is fantastic - bit heavier than comparable OMM and Inov8 models, but unlike them, it has a structured back.  It's also good for cycling as well.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 03, 2012, 10:27:38 am
Cheers, Lady C. I've just started a specific thread on this subject to open it up a bit (and avoid straying too far off topic here) but that's some good info to be going on with.  :thumbsup:

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gus on October 03, 2012, 01:53:32 pm
did 5 km today when my achilles tendon started to hurt again, limped home and hope it improves over the next days.
But most likely no running for some time again. :(
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on October 04, 2012, 12:04:51 pm
Mine is an old version of this - http://www.asics.co.uk/running/products/trail-running-backpack/ but the do a smaller version with a bladder if you don't need to carry so much. Mine has no bladder but the same straps as both. I carry a change of clothes, lunch, some papers and keys/wallet. It's comfy and very stable but not very light.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 12, 2012, 02:21:54 pm
First training run for the #camfunrun next month:

http://my.digifit.com/site/share/workout/cc0f6351146e11e2960c2b04e7f42c64.html#.UHgYea3VHwQ

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on October 12, 2012, 08:17:35 pm
i've signed up for this parkrun last week, but was ill with cold and chest infection till now. i'm curious to see what it's like and also where do i start with f-all training. low twenty min would be nice, but main priority is to finish without injury.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on October 13, 2012, 11:53:32 am
^^ it all went pretty well. gorgeous morning, 15min bike ride to the park for warm-up, started running too fast (no idea about the pace), then settled into my fast_sustainable mode and finished third, in around 20min. my time didn't get taken as i ran past the marshal (instead of turning right in front of him onto the grass), so he thought i'm not part of this run :facepalm:. anyway the guy behind me finished "as it just turned 20", so that's good enough. next time i might take a phone/gps with me.

edit: just received the results; i've been awarded 5th place and the time of 20:25 doh.. next time under 20 - that's for sure! :demon:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 13, 2012, 11:57:14 am
My legs hurt.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on October 13, 2012, 08:18:53 pm
Oh well, got the PF under control, now my knees hurt like buggery...Google Fu suggest I have runner's knee.  What a bleedin vortex of smeg.

At least I can ride my bike though.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on October 14, 2012, 05:29:38 pm

[One interesting thing about this race was that the timing "chips" were printed on bits of paper, which you made into a loop and put through your laces. The timing "mats" however, were like bars 1cm high, 10cm across, proud of the surface - as one bit of the technology gets smaller, so the other gets larger!]

Lucky it's the bit that you have to carry on your foot that's getting lighter then. ;D

Nice one Oranj and good luck in the marathon. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 14, 2012, 07:50:53 pm
Good stuff. I was worried yesterday my legs were going to hurt /even more/ today but they seem to be on the mend now. Might do my next run tomorrow.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on October 14, 2012, 09:58:12 pm
I'm on a cycling trip atm but still managed to sneak in a 5k yesterday- 18.37
 


Good God, that's good.
I have to know. Was that in cycling shoes or are you carrying running shoes with you. ;D


Quote
so still heading in right direction which is the main thing

I think I'd consider that time my arrival, never mind the right direction.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on October 15, 2012, 06:45:22 am
Lol thanks, I'm still a way behind my pre-broken times though. I'll get back there one day I hope.

And good god no, with my stupid foot there is no way on earth I'm running anywhere in cycling shoes. No, I have running trainers and the kitchen sink with me, I'm regretting it every time I see a hill, I feel like I'm pulling a tractor!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 15, 2012, 02:59:31 pm
21 mins exactly on Saturday's parkrun. And it felt like serious effort. I only managed that time because I got into a group of four runners and used them to motivate me to keep going. One of them thanked me afterwards for pacing her! Obvious mutual benefits in running in a group rather than solo or on a treadmill. But I'm going to have to start taking this a little more seriously if I really want to get sub-20 mins... I might even have to use the T-word...*

To that end, I went out for a lunchtime run today - along the South Bank, over Westminster Bridge, round St James's Park, back along the north side of the river and across the Millennium Bridge. Roughly 8.5km. Time was about 45 minutes but is immaterial really - I was just taking it at a steady, comfortable pace, plus I had to keep stopping and/or swerving because of the crowds of tourists (especially by the Millennium Wheel), crossing roads, avoiding stepping on pigeons/squirrels/perlicans in St James's Park. But I really enjoyed it. Will have to make it a regular thing - but maybe refine the route to avoid the crowds.  :thumbsup:

I'm thinking I might even do a (kind of) triathlon one day this week - swim in the morning, run at lunchtime and ride after work.

d.

*training - spit!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 15, 2012, 03:02:42 pm
Ran in the Oxford Half Marathon today... I was pretty comfortable with a steady 1h29 pace

Impressive! Good work.

edit: just received the results; i've been awarded 5th place and the time of 20:25 doh.. next time under 20 - that's for sure! :demon:

Frustrating! But that's still a time for some of us to be envious of. Well done.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on October 15, 2012, 05:58:35 pm
Lol thanks, I'm still a way behind my pre-broken times though. I'll get back there one day I hope.


It's all relative. I watched Mo Farrah on telly in a hotel doing his Olympic 5k. Apparently, his time, which was about half my 5k time, was a "slow" race. ;D

Quote
And good god no, with my stupid foot there is no way on earth I'm running anywhere in cycling shoes.


Oh, I see. So if your foot was OK, you'd run in your cycling shoes. I understand now. Thanks. ;D
This reminds me of the time some Frenchman tried to steal my bike in Paris and I chased after him in my cycling shoes...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on October 16, 2012, 10:36:50 am
I've had a bit of a case of lazyitis with my running, not having done much in ages.
So to combat this I've stuck the NHS Couch to 5K on my mp3 player, and started again from scratch.

1st week of the program done,and I'm just in from my first run of the second week - 5 min warm up walk, then 90 seconds run followed by 2 mins walk, alternating for 20 minutes.    :thumbsup:

Oh, and my old Edinburgh bicycle pad less bib tights seem quite fine for running in cold, damp weather! 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 16, 2012, 04:11:12 pm
Today I went for a run. Felt crap, so did 10K.

http://my.digifit.com/site/share/workout/68acf3b8179311e291b2fff61a7a6b5c.html#.UH1h3LPKuJg
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 16, 2012, 04:57:01 pm
Today I went for a run. Felt crap, so did 10K.

http://my.digifit.com/site/share/workout/68acf3b8179311e291b2fff61a7a6b5c.html#.UH1h3LPKuJg

Good effort!

I've not heard of digifit before. Looks interesting. I've been using Strava but I'm going to start using Endomondo again because I've just discovered it syncs with myfitnesspal. There seem to be rather a lot of these personal tracker apps to choose from now.

Went out for another run myself at lunchtime - really felt the need for it after a pretty stressful morning at work. Did basically the same as yesterday but tweaked it slightly to avoid the crowded bits. Fantastic. Felt great afterwards. Really cleared my head nicely. I can't believe I'm actually properly enjoying running now.   ;D

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Feline on October 16, 2012, 07:02:05 pm
Today I went for a run. Felt crap, so did 10K.

http://my.digifit.com/site/share/workout/68acf3b8179311e291b2fff61a7a6b5c.html#.UH1h3LPKuJg

Good effort!

I've not heard of digifit before. Looks interesting. I've been using Strava but I'm going to start using Endomondo again because I've just discovered it syncs with myfitnesspal. There seem to be rather a lot of these personal tracker apps to choose from now.

Went out for another run myself at lunchtime - really felt the need for it after a pretty stressful morning at work. Did basically the same as yesterday but tweaked it slightly to avoid the crowded bits. Fantastic. Felt great afterwards. Really cleared my head nicely. I can't believe I'm actually properly enjoying running now.   ;D

d.

The advantage of Digifit is that their iPhone apps can collect data using a bluetooth polar HR band that also works with equipment in the gym. They can import and share data with/from all sorts of other sources too. There is an ANT+ iPhone dongle that allows the app to use Garmin stuff like cad sensor, Gamin HR band and power tap also  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on October 16, 2012, 07:07:17 pm
The advantage of Digifit is that their iPhone apps can collect data using a bluetooth polar HR band that also works with equipment in the gym. They can import and share data with/from all sorts of other sources too. There is an ANT+ iPhone dongle that allows the app to use Garmin stuff like cad sensor, Gamin HR band and power tap also  :thumbsup:


[luddite]
Fascinating.

I wonder what it means. ???

[/luddite]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Feline on October 16, 2012, 07:10:47 pm
The advantage of Digifit is that their iPhone apps can collect data using a bluetooth polar HR band that also works with equipment in the gym. They can import and share data with/from all sorts of other sources too. There is an ANT+ iPhone dongle that allows the app to use Garmin stuff like cad sensor, Gamin HR band and power tap also  :thumbsup:


[luddite]
Fascinating.

I wonder what it means. ???

[/luddite]

It means I have a big credit card bill because I spent $stupidmoney on too many gadgets  ;D
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 16, 2012, 07:34:02 pm
I've been thinking of getting an ANT+ dongle for my iPhone so I can use my Garmin HRM with the Strava/Endomondo apps. They are a bit spendy though. Maybe a Polar Bluetooth HRM is a better option...

If I could use the ANT+ dongle to upload data to Garmin Connect, I would definitely consider it worth having, but I don't think you can do that so it's strictly a luxury item on the wish list.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Feline on October 16, 2012, 07:52:14 pm
I've been thinking of getting an ANT+ dongle for my iPhone so I can use my Garmin HRM with the Strava/Endomondo apps. They are a bit spendy though. Maybe a Polar Bluetooth HRM is a better option...

If I could use the ANT+ dongle to upload data to Garmin Connect, I would definitely consider it worth having, but I don't think you can do that so it's strictly a luxury item on the wish list.

d.

If only they had made the new iPhone ANT+ compatible with no dongle :(
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fuaran on October 16, 2012, 08:37:12 pm
If I could use the ANT+ dongle to upload data to Garmin Connect, I would definitely consider it worth having, but I don't think you can do that so it's strictly a luxury item on the wish list.
Not tried it myself, but apparently you can use the Garmin Fit app with the Iphone ANT+ adapter, and it will automatically upload to Garmin Connect. https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=104231

There are a few Android phones with ANT+ built in, mostly from Sony Ericsson. Though it seems most of the newer Sony phones are lacking ANT+.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 16, 2012, 08:49:35 pm
Garmin Fit app is reputed to be rubbish. And unlike other (better) fitness tracking apps, it isn't free!

I just have to be patient and upload later when I'm in range of the home computer. I can live with that level of inconvenience. ;)

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 16, 2012, 11:23:45 pm
Today I went for a run. Felt crap, so did 10K.

http://my.digifit.com/site/share/workout/68acf3b8179311e291b2fff61a7a6b5c.html#.UH1h3LPKuJg

Good effort!

Fidgetbuzz reckons someone my age should be going sub 40 minutes. Not for my first ever 10K, though! I am actually training for a ~1.8km run next month (a lap of Cambridge Science Park as part of a 4-man relay team), so am just using these runs to get my legs used to running before I start doing some speed work. The last time I ran the event, in 2010, I did a PB of 6:45, which was a 6 minute mile pace. I usually don't get around to training at all until a couple of weeks ahead, but it's still a month away, so I hope to improve on that time, perhaps knock 15s off and get down to 6:30.

Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 17, 2012, 06:22:04 am
There are a lot of fitness apps and gadgets coming to market that will be BlueTooth compatible (maybe including bike power meters). Bide your time.

Straying off topic a bit now but I thought the point of ANT+ was its much lower power consumption than Bluetooth. However, I've just been doing some reading and it seems there's now Bluetooth Low Energy, which I guess will ultimately make ANT+ redundant - the Betamax of near field communication, eh, teethgrinder?

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Feline on October 17, 2012, 09:43:45 pm
There are a lot of fitness apps and gadgets coming to market that will be BlueTooth compatible (maybe including bike power meters). Bide your time.

Straying off topic a bit now but I thought the point of ANT+ was its much lower power consumption than Bluetooth. However, I've just been doing some reading and it seems there's now Bluetooth Low Energy, which I guess will ultimately make ANT+ redundant - the Betamax of near field communication, eh, teethgrinder?

d.

The new Polar H7 bluetooth band (that Simon and I now have) is the new low energy technology. The good thing is it's also backwards comatible with Polar watches and fitness equipment.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on October 17, 2012, 10:07:41 pm
Fidgetbuzz reckons someone my age should be going sub 40 minutes. Not for my first ever 10K, though!

Absolutely - go back a page - look at Lady C - 18 odd for 5 kms - and she is well off her best I believe.

So under 40 - should be a no brainer - 35 or 36 now you are running rather than "jogging"
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Feline on October 17, 2012, 10:25:08 pm
Fidgetbuzz reckons someone my age should be going sub 40 minutes. Not for my first ever 10K, though!

Absolutely - go back a page - look at Lady C - 18 odd for 5 kms - and she is well off her best I believe.

So under 40 - should be a no brainer - 35 or 36 now you are running rather than "jogging"

Lady C is a runner. Why would someone who doesn't really run be able to do comparable times on a first attempt?
I should try and run 10k to give you a laugh. I reckon it would take me more than an hour  :D
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 17, 2012, 11:22:56 pm
50mins/10k is not bad at all for a fit non-runner - I'd be pleased with that myself, and I think I'm fairly close in age to SimonP. I reckon I might manage 45 minutes on a good day if I really pushed myself.

Sub 40 mins sounds rather ambitious but isn't beyond the realms of possibility. Might take a bit of work to get there though.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 18, 2012, 01:06:28 am
50mins/10k is not bad at all for a fit non-runner - I'd be pleased with that myself, and I think I'm fairly close in age to SimonP. I reckon I might manage 45 minutes on a good day if I really pushed myself.

Sub 40 mins sounds rather ambitious but isn't beyond the realms of possibility. Might take a bit of work to get there though.

d.

46 minutes. (45:58)

This is only the third time I’ve run outdoors this year, IIRC. To me, 35 minutes seems unrealistic. Given I ran a 6 minute mile pace in the 1.8km race in 2010, I expect to at least match that again this year as I’m training now with a month to go rather than the more usual start with two weeks to go. I’m targeting 6:30 for the event (6:45 in 2010).
 
My first outdoor run of this training was 7.54km, at a pace equivalent to 48:45 for 10km. So I’ve gone nearly 3 minutes/10k faster already. I was pretty sore on Saturday; much less so today.

This calculator lets you adjust your time for age. 35 minutes seems highly unlikely for me.

http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/agegradingcalculator/0,7977,s6-238-277-415-0,00.html
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 18, 2012, 05:29:34 am
Well, there you go - I reckon 70% for your age grade should be an achievable target for a fit non-runner with a bit of training.

For me, that means I need to be aiming for 19:20 for 5k and 40 mins for 10k.

Hmmm.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 18, 2012, 06:46:44 pm
I can't quite believe I'm saying this but... that actually sounds like fun.  ;D

Went for a lunchtime run again today - for the fourth time this week! (I'm giving myself the day off tomorrow though.) I ran my 8.5km route in a bit over 39 minutes. Started off slowly for the first km or so to get warmed up then increased to "tempo" pace (about 4.30min/km). Felt really good - certainly gave me enough of a buzz to make the afternoon at work much more bearable.  :thumbsup:

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on October 18, 2012, 11:11:03 pm
Coming off Hardknott today (#massivenamedrop) I spotted some damp runners with Goretex-n-rucksacks. Lovely friendly couple, they were recce-ing the Lakeland 50. a 24h cutoff - does that sound right? Can't quite get my head around how that compares with the Thames event!

I think they'd enjoyed some 'bonus' miles last year, so reckoned it was worth checking their route this time! Having seen the incredible terrain they were going over, I had to agree. I hadn't seen another walker-or-cyclists for bloody miles, so was glad for a chat - it's great hearing about other mad stuff people are upto.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on October 18, 2012, 11:13:03 pm
Lakeland 50 is absolutely nothing like the TT50. Lakeland 50 is harder than most 100 milers. The Lakeland 100 is the hardest thing in the country......

Enter it Matt :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on October 18, 2012, 11:22:04 pm
Maybe not this time:
 Saturday July 27th 2013 - Noon, Sunday July 28th 2013

(head controller would NOT be happy!)

<Makes note to check excuses for all the other ultras next year ...>

Leaving aside the sheer unlikelyness of my legs holding out for more than 2 hours ... I can't decide how/if these long runs appeal. If I had all the skills, the Lakeland event looks fab (massive IF). Whilst the more 'practical' events look deadly dull. No offence to certain people, but 24 hours along a towpath, or round a 400m track? I shall continue to merely worship those concerned from afar!
LDWA might be the way (despite them being stuffier than even AUK!) Crikey - 'Search' reveals that this links back to posts on this thread in 2010.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on October 18, 2012, 11:33:56 pm
<Makes note to check excuses for all the other ultras next year ...>

Psssst!

Mersey 24.


Saying that, running 100 miles over the Lake District sounds like a good weekend to me. If only I had the running legs...
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 19, 2012, 08:11:40 am
Saying that, running 100 miles over the Lake District sounds like a good weekend to me. If only I had the running legs...

This.

I couldn't do it as a race, but it sounds like something I'd love to do for fun at my own speed.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on October 19, 2012, 11:27:32 am
Did 8.9 miles in 1h11m in my vivobarefoots. Wasn't watching the GPS, just concentrating on my form, so was pleased to stay sub 8m/miles and not get injured. It's the furthest I've run in my barefoots - haven't gone beyond 10km before. Didn't get any ITB, knee or ankle problems - still going to keep it infrequent as they clearly test parts of me that don't get used so much. Calf muscles feel pretty pumped today, and I don't think I'm going to enjoy my fixed gear hill repeats later.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 19, 2012, 04:33:25 pm
Did a 5k at lunchtime, got soaked. 1k warm-up, then 5k in 20:51, then 0.5k crawl.

Age-graded score for that time is 65.46, suggesting I'm getting faster.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on October 19, 2012, 04:37:05 pm
Age-graded score for that time is 65.46, suggesting I'm getting faster.

or older.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 19, 2012, 05:03:26 pm
Age-graded score for that time is 65.46, suggesting I'm getting faster.

or older.

Not as fast as I'm getting faster.  :P
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on October 20, 2012, 04:55:45 pm
edit: just received the results; i've been awarded 5th place and the time of 20:25 doh.. next time under 20 - that's for sure! :demon:

much better this time, i gave it all! gps helped me to keep the pace in check, although still started off too quick (just like in audaxes..). good conditions for running, overcast and no wind. came fourth in 19:26, felt dizzy and nearly got sick after finishing - must have been trying hard! now - do i start training for better times or leave it at that?

btw, how do you run through puddles - i need mudguards
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on October 21, 2012, 01:55:50 pm
Age-graded score for that time is 65.46, suggesting I'm getting faster.

or older.

Not as fast as I'm getting faster.  :P

Fairy nuff.
That's good going. You're a few minutes faster than my best 5k. :thumbsup:

Nice one to you as well Zigzag :thumbsup:


I was up in Brumland this morning and felt a bit gutted that I never knew about the half marathon that was on. I could have had a go at that.  :(


Never mind.
I'll leave this running lark for a while. Haven't done a run since about August. But I'm doing stuff in the gym now, including hamstring exercises. So I'll come out and do a Parkrun with absolutely no running behind me in about November-December. I'll run the 4 miles to the start and see what time I do, then run/walk/crawl home again.
It'll be intersting to see what happens. ;D
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 21, 2012, 04:49:42 pm
Wrong side of 21mins on yesterday's Parkrun again. Frustrating!

Was supposed to be doing the Fowlmead CX race today but woke up late, bike needed fettling and didn't really fancy the schlepp down to Deal so just went for a run through the local woods instead. Took it nice and easy and clocked up 15km in 90 minutes.

Very wet, very muddy but very satisfying. :thumbsup:

zigzag, re puddles, I got bored of trying to avoid them and my feet were wet by then anyway so I just ran through them. Good squelchy fun, really! ;D

Impressive parkrunning, btw.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 22, 2012, 05:55:06 pm
I did 8x2-minute intervals today. 4 minute jog recoveries.

I'm re-starting the 100 push-ups challenge this evening.

It's been nice knowing y'all.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 24, 2012, 05:00:09 pm
8km in a smidge over 35mins on my lunchtime run today.

Quite pleased with that, but apparently I need to get it down to 31:40 to hit that magic 70% mark.

Yikes.  :o

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 24, 2012, 05:58:52 pm
I'm broken. Tried to do another 10km, warmed up jogging for a mile but pain from my left ankle so I stopped and limped back to the office (2.5 miles).

I think it's the peroneal tendon.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Feline on October 24, 2012, 08:49:17 pm
I'm broken. Tried to do another 10km, warmed up jogging for a mile but pain from my left ankle so I stopped and limped back to the office (2.5 miles).

I think it's the peroneal tendon.

If it's the same one I damaged on PBP, you might find that walking is a big problem but you can cycle fine until you try to unclip (all be it a bit painful).
Does this mean we will not be requenting the gym this weekend?
I just got in from Spin&Abs followed by pilates classes so things will probably ache tomorrow anyway. I will probably ride 100k tomorrow unless it's too hurty!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on October 24, 2012, 09:12:37 pm
I'm broken. Tried to do another 10km, warmed up jogging for a mile but pain from my left ankle so I stopped and limped back to the office (2.5 miles).

I think it's the peroneal tendon.

I had months of peroneal tendonitis. Self-referral physio was okay but all it was was loads of ankle lifts and calf stretches. Worked eventually / spontaneous remission.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Feline on October 24, 2012, 09:18:39 pm
Mine spontaneously remissed about 3 days after PBP. Other bits took longer to fully recover!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: simonp on October 24, 2012, 09:31:37 pm
Well, first challenge is getting home from work (I'm still there).

As for the gym, I might be able to swim. Treadmill is out. Rowing machine isn't an option if cycling causes pain. Upper body resistance work won't be affected (but I've not recovered from Monday's 77 press-ups yet).

Good chance the race I'm training for is off.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gandalf on October 25, 2012, 06:22:36 am
Had a run with no hurty knee yesterday, so cautiously optimistic. 

I have this cockamamie theory that I can only run if I do it in addition to cycling as opposed to instead of.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on October 26, 2012, 02:33:45 pm
Great run at lunchtime. Fixed hill repeats have been killing me - waking up in the night with sore quads. Colleague suggested I run instead of cycle, have a massive pig out, and get to bed early. I did that yesterday. Notwithstanding waking up in the night and being kept awake with sore legs (chocolate / ibuprofen / placebo fixed it), I woke up feeling great, and did my first sub-7min/mile run offroad in my vivobarefoots. Only 4.5miles, but it felt great. The ground was really soft, and the shoes felt perfect.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on November 06, 2012, 07:46:46 pm
Took my running shoes with me to Italy last week (wanted to take my bike but it wasn't practical). Only managed to fit in two runs but they were good ones. The second was an off-road trail that loops up the valley from where we were staying - only 5km but according to my gps, over 300 metres of ascent. Very steep and technical in places, but FUN! I want to do that again. ;D

I think the break and change of scenery have done me good because I went for my "regular" lunchtime run again today and knocked two minutes off my PB (8km in 35mins). That's only slightly slower than my best 5km pace.

Thinking of trying some intervals next to mix it up a bit.

d.


Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on November 07, 2012, 03:16:56 pm
Never done intervals, but have found myself sprinting to signs and stuff.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on November 10, 2012, 11:42:40 am
Run two of week 4 on the NHS Couch to 5K program.
Out of interest, tried running with a forefoot gait rather than my usual heel striking overpronating gait. 
Seemed to cause a lot less impact on knees.  Felt I was working my calfs / achillies tendon more though. 
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on November 10, 2012, 01:48:29 pm
20.44 on today's Parkrun - new PB! Pleased with that, though I was on course for sub-20.30 until I hit the wall towards the end. Felt at the end like I actually had the capacity to go a bit faster, and the stats show my HR never went much above 180, which is a good sign (not so long ago, I'd have been well into the 190s running at that pace). First km came up in 3.50 and felt comfortable, so I'm optimistic about achieving my 20min target before long…

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on November 16, 2012, 02:53:41 pm
Just ran 11.07km in 43m39 - that's equivalent to a 39m30s 10km - a huge PB for me. I haven't tried to run a fast 10km for about a year, and I know I'm a lot fitter than I was then, but that's a good 2 1/2 minutes quicker than I was hoping for.

I admit, I had a "precautionary" couple of puffs on my ventolin before I went out, and the 4 espressos I had this morning probably didn't hurt either. I AM actually asthmatic, so it's not like I've been hanging out with Dr Ferrari  :)

Still, for me that took a lot of suffering, and audio prompts from runkeeper every 250m to keep my pace up. That is as fast as I can go atm, I reckon, short of running with some faster people who I'd be embarrassed to be dropped by. There are a bunch of chaps from the MRC epid unit that run 40-42m 10kms as a lunchtime training run. I've been scared to go out with them, but I think I'll give it a go.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on November 17, 2012, 07:33:01 am
Good work, Dr M.

I've been looking at my stats at
http://www.runbritainrankings.com/ - it's an interesting site for anyone with a slightly geeky approach to their running.

Slightly scary to see that the best Parkrun times anywhere in Britain for my age group are sub 15 minutes.

d.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on November 17, 2012, 02:29:22 pm
great effort chaps, it's a nice feeling to smash your pb! i've done another parkrun today in 19:19 and mrs z ran her first one in 29:23 - that's pretty good! precious time together followed by hearty breakfast - can a day start better than this?! can you tell i'm excited?! ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on November 19, 2012, 12:58:30 pm
Cheers guys - awesome work my Mr & Mrs zigzag, and tremendous effort by Oranj - I think I would be happy forever if I could go sub 3h30 on a marathon.

I've still not got my head around how okay it is to be sore after a run. My calf muscles tighten up horribly after anything over 10km, and I usually get a bit of ITB tweakiness thrown in too. Makes me nervous to aim for anything more "committed" as I feel like I'll inevitably become frustrated by injuries. I've yet to run further than 15 miles in one go.

At the mo, alternating between running, cycling and concept2 is working for me.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on November 19, 2012, 03:09:01 pm
Cheers guys - awesome work my Mr & Mrs zigzag, and tremendous effort by Oranj - I think I would be happy forever if I could go sub 3h30 on a marathon.
...

fwiw, my (single) 10k training run was just under 40min, with a london marathon of 3:27 two weeks later (it did hurt and that's not the right approach to take).

so, you've already done more training and i reckon you're good for sub 3:30 marathon!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on December 22, 2012, 04:10:16 pm
A comical but satisfying ParkRun today. At the 2nd attempt I got up early enough to ride (in the bloody dark) to the Oxford event - unlike Abingdon, it has actually happened since the Thames took over South Oxfordshire. It's 3 months since my last one (too much cycling!), and I've had a few weeks of niggles and bugger-all miles, so it was nice to get round injury-free and at a  decent effort level.

VERY muddy - with my lack of balance I was surprised to stay upright. (It's probably lovely in June). No idea what effect this has on times - I've never run 'fast' in proper mud - but I managed about 24:30 (PB still 22:54). And it has a few proper slopes (not hills, i stress!). And I stopped to re-tie both shoelaces  :facepalm: And ... and ...

Anyway, I really enjoyed my morning, despite 2 hours of riding in the rain. I am the king of -ve splits! (about 5min 5 5 5 4:30). Given the laces incident, my pacing is a long way from consistent, and I'm probably still sandbagging somewhat ... :-[ My average pulse is still about 10 below what I do on equivalent bike events. But it is nice to overtake people for the last 3km instead of the opposite (there were a few really struggling on the last lap)! And it beats picking up injuries...

My (semi-)regular "long" run is now with the local club, 5 miles in their 9mm group.   If i can keep that up most weeks, with a steady increase in pace, I'll be happy; but I hope to build upto longer runs too. there's nothing special about running with the club, but it motivates me to actually MTFU and get out there. ( it might also lead to training partners, lift-shares for events, perhaps bigger things?)

(Group running is very different to group cycling, but I'm getting the hang of it slowly!)


Must build mileage slowly, Must build mileage slowly, Must build mileage slowly, Must build mileage slowly ... (and speed!)

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on December 24, 2012, 01:06:55 pm
I stopped to re-tie both shoelaces  :facepalm:

I think you've found the only thing in running that allows faffing. ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on December 24, 2012, 02:12:27 pm
<ignores TG>

I'm not a great descender. So I might try some training drills, perhaps

this (http://talkultra.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/greg-vollet-athletics-weekly-may-2012.jpg)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on January 01, 2013, 04:19:59 pm
New job, and new head of dept. is a bit keen on running. As in, he's in his mid 50s and his 5k times start with a 17. At his encouragement, I've signed up for Rombald's Stride - 23 mile fell run thing in late February. My only hope is that I've only posted it off recently, and the website is now saying event full.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on January 04, 2013, 03:17:46 pm
Damn - I got a place.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: DrMekon on January 04, 2013, 06:49:48 pm
Thanks LadyC. Will tap you up for tips nearer the time. I'll try to get some runs in ASAP. Not been over 18 miles yet.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on January 13, 2013, 07:25:57 pm
First real race - Woodcote 10k - done. Once I got moving I really enjoyed it. Avoided 90% of the disasters/egg-on-face that I feared.

I won't bore you all with the full RR! (151/258 blokes) Oh and I passed a bloke doing his laces up at 3k  :smug:

Can't afford to do lots at £15, it does show how marvellous a thing parkRun is. But I'm pretty sure I'll do another. Hoping to ride a 1200 this year, so the bike will still get most of my time, I expect.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on January 14, 2013, 11:26:27 am
Damn - I got a place.

Ha! Good luck.

First real race - Woodcote 10k - done.

Well done!

I've been struggling a bit on the parkruns lately, partly because I've been ill, partly because of poor running conditions and partly, I think, because I've put a bit of weight back on over the Christmas period - just a couple of kilos but I'm convinced it makes a difference. I've not been under 21 minutes since the start of December. Aiming to start doing something about the last of those by going for a gentle 10k this lunchtime.

One of the parkrun regulars is organising a 7.5mile charity run next weekend. Might give it a go. Only thing is, since it's an A to B route, I might have to run to the start and then home again afterwards, which would round it up to a bit more than a half marathon. Hmmm...

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on January 18, 2013, 03:46:38 pm
Three 10km lunchtime runs this week. Today's was fab. Not fast but really enjoyable. Went as far as Green Park, which was gorgeous in the snow.

I'm doing around 50 minutes for 10km at the moment, which is a manageable pace. Reckon I could comfortably go a bit quicker.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: tonyh on January 18, 2013, 05:10:20 pm
Jealous!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on January 18, 2013, 06:43:05 pm
Bought a new pair of tights in Decathlon today, so I figured I may as well make the most of what was left of the afternoon to complete week 7 run 3 of the Couch to 5k programme!   :D
Also bought a pair of trail running shoes from the afore mentioned French purveyor of sporting goods, as I think I might try my hand at trail running, as pounding the streets is getting a little tedious...

Still in two minds whether to give Parkrun a bash - nearest one to me is at Cramond, Edinburgh.

I probably should be getting the kms in for the Tour of East Lothian 100km audax on the 17th Feb though....
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on January 18, 2013, 06:51:38 pm
Also bought a pair of trail running shoes from the afore mentioned French purveyor of sporting goods, as I think I might try my hand at trail running, as pounding the streets is getting a little tedious...

Still in two minds whether to give Parkrun a bash - nearest one to me is at Cramond, Edinburgh.
What's to lose Brian? They really are great events. :thumbsup:

But may I suggest that - funds allowing - you buy your next shoes from a proper running shop? It's just as easy to f**k up your feet/legs on trails as on roads. They might also know what will work best on the routes you're using (there is a hyooooge variation in 'trail' surfaces and shoes - it took me ages to buy mine as I really didn't know what I needed. Still not sure, ongoing experiment ...)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on January 30, 2013, 10:52:28 am
As mentioned somewhere upthread, I've been getting a lot of post-run tightness in my calves, which a couple of you suggested was probably due to not "warming down" properly. I took this advice on board and looked up some stretching exercises. Following yesterday's lunchtime run, I did the first exercise listed on this page, repeating it several times for each leg:
http://www.theflexibilitycoach.com/articles/8_10_ways_to_stretch_tight_calf_muscles.htm

Wow. It really works. The difference it has made is staggering. My legs feel perfectly normal today.

Thank you for the advice, chaps!  :thumbsup:

The run itself was pretty good too. Lovely day for it - sunny and mild. Started off gently, averaging a bit over 5min/km, but pushed it towards the end, taking the last km in 4.08 to squeeze through the 10km mark just inside 50 minutes. Sweet.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on January 30, 2013, 07:29:06 pm
As mentioned somewhere upthread, I've been getting a lot of post-run tightness in my calves, which a couple of you suggested was probably due to not "warming down" properly. I took this advice on board and looked up some stretching exercises. Following yesterday's lunchtime run, I did the first exercise listed on this page, repeating it several times for each leg:
http://www.theflexibilitycoach.com/articles/8_10_ways_to_stretch_tight_calf_muscles.htm

Wow. It really works. The difference it has made is staggering.

Boom tish! ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on January 30, 2013, 07:43:35 pm
Does this mean you're only doing the ONE stretch Citoyen?!?

Maybe when something else breaks, you'll build some others into your routine! ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on January 31, 2013, 09:51:16 am
I wasn't doing any stretches before, so it's a start...

The reason I wasn't is that getting changed, running, showering etc takes up nearly all of my allotted hour, so by the end of it I'm in a rush to get back to my desk, but I guess I'd be better off shortening my run (or running faster?) to allow for some proper warming down time at the end, incorporating a range of stretches. Or I could do the warm down instead of showering, but I don't think my colleagues would thank me for that.  ;D

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on January 31, 2013, 09:53:07 am
Boom tish! ;D

 :facepalm:  Pun not intended.

d.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on February 03, 2013, 04:29:18 pm
Crikey. I'm slightly awestruck at that. Well done!

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on February 03, 2013, 04:49:28 pm
wow, that's serious! if my legs managed that distance (although i doubt it), i'd be sitting with the black toenails now waiting for them to come off. it must be tricky to keep your body warm for so many hours in the cold.
yesterday /after the parkrun/ i came home and had to put even more clothes on and have three big cuppas till i warmed up.
Title: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on February 03, 2013, 06:31:47 pm
I recorded my best parkrun time yesterday since before I got ill - ie first time under 22 mins since the 1st of January. Probably would have been quicker still but for the EVIL headwind in the last 2km. Didn't mind the cold so much - until I stopped running...

Meridian TV cameras were there to do a piece on parkrun, so those in the SE may see me on Meridian news some time in the next few days. They might even show my wicked sprint finish up the slope, where I passed fellow VM40-44 runner Mike and thus finished first in my age category for the first time. Woo! ;D

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on February 05, 2013, 05:39:57 pm
I recorded my best parkrun time yesterday since before I got ill...

Further confirmation today that I've well and truly shaken off the lingering chest lurgy - I did the 10k lunchtime run in 46 minutes, which is a PB by a significant margin.  :thumbsup:

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 05, 2013, 06:00:57 pm
Thames Trot for me yesterday. Ended up with 75km in 6:59 [Garmin Connect (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/268766482)].

I got seriously lost on roads I know well in Pangbourne, but in my defence the last-minute routesheet (changed to avoid all the flooding along the towpath) that was emailed out on Thursday had a right turn there which got changed to a left in the sheet handed out on the day and I hadn't noticed. I also managed a few small route errors later on too.

Your diversion towards Theale looks pretty funny on that map :P But I can see how it might have happened. 75km is a much nicer number anyway  :thumbsup: Impressive pacing too.

I enjoyed hanging out at the Benson checkpoint with some runners I vaguely knew, waiting for their friends/spouses. It was a really nice atmosphere - somewhere between an Audax (fruitcake looked good) and a TT (support teams). Not too frantic even when the 'bulge' arrived, and an impressive demographic spread (gender, age, equipment styles).

I'll probably enter a couple of LDWA events this year (20-30 miles?) and the Compton 20 in April (cos it's local). Intention being walk-run, with the emphasis on walk, depending on my fitness when they come around.
(I intend sticking to the 'budget' end of the event spectrum).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: JJ on February 06, 2013, 10:00:19 am
I'm gob-smacked!  The very idea of running 75km!  Well done.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on February 06, 2013, 11:55:36 am
Sounds like your shoes are too small ZigZag. I've had my fair share of lost/black toenails over the years, but usually from bashing my feet about on trails and so on.
<...>

regarding the shoe size - i think they are the right size.. i've bought another pair of trainers (after a black toenail incident) with more room in the front and also asked for advise in a couple of specialist shops and they assured that i shouldn't get black toenails, but still got after next marathon >:(
i think there might be something else that's causing this issue, i've done a lot of reading about it and most suggest that shoes are too small. but there's ample room to wiggle toes, bigger trainers would just be too big.
and there's no easy way to test new trainers - i'd need to run a marathon distance to find out if they keep my toes happy.

i hope your ankle and knees heal/recover soon.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on February 06, 2013, 12:14:57 pm
I'm gob-smacked!  The very idea of running 75km!  Well done.

I was gobsmacked at the idea of 75km, but I just looked at the data on Garmin Connect and now I'm even more gobsmacked. Also slightly envious. Oranj, very impressed indeed with your ability to keep up what is a pretty decent pace for such a long time. And that climb up to Binfield Heath doesn't look too steep on Google Streetview but I bet you felt it in your legs after 68km...

Chapeau.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on February 06, 2013, 05:10:59 pm
Sounds like your shoes are too small ZigZag. I've had my fair share of lost/black toenails over the years, but usually from bashing my feet about on trails and so on.
<...>

regarding the shoe size - i think they are the right size.. i've bought another pair of trainers (after a black toenail incident) with more room in the front and also asked for advise in a couple of specialist shops and they assured that i shouldn't get black toenails, but still got after next marathon >:(
i think there might be something else that's causing this issue, i've done a lot of reading about it and most suggest that shoes are too small. but there's ample room to wiggle toes, bigger trainers would just be too big.
and there's no easy way to test new trainers - i'd need to run a marathon distance to find out if they keep my toes happy.

i hope your ankle and knees heal/recover soon.
Bruce Fordyce cuts flaps in the front of his shoes to avoid this problem when running the 90km Comrades [google him!].

(just happened to be listening to an interview)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: agagisgroovy on February 09, 2013, 10:22:56 pm
9.5 miles today. Did walk up some of the hills though. Felt strong finishing and still had energy to take the new BSO for a test pootle.  :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: JJ on February 12, 2013, 06:52:56 pm
Going to try running home tonight, after almost 3 weeks out with shin splints.  It'll either set me up or set me back!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on February 12, 2013, 08:29:27 pm
My blisters have just about healed so I'm setting the zombies on me again tomorrow. Even I can 'run' faster than the shambling undead.
Previous attempts at 'running' have been kiboshed by dodgy knee and hip. Fingers crossed they'll stay uncomplaining this time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: JJ on February 12, 2013, 08:55:27 pm
Fingers crossed they'll stay uncomplaining this time.
:thumbsup:  Crossing mine for you too.

I made it home with only mild twinges.  Now to see if I can gently build it up.  I've a marathon entered in 2 1/2 weeks, but that might be over-ambitious.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on February 16, 2013, 11:57:20 am
20.52 on today's parkrun - 8 seconds slower than PB, dammit. Still my fastest run since 1 December, so that's good - I lost a bit of form in January through illness but I seem to be almost back to full strength now.

I might have got a PB but I was slowed down by a stretch of heavy mud in the third km that might easily have cost me ten seconds. Perfect conditions apart from that - I finished 10th and six of the nine ahead of me got PBs.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: SteveC on March 04, 2013, 01:51:01 pm
Bought a new pair of running shoes on Saturday, from a 'proper running shop'.
They had me jogging up and down 'The Corridor' in Bath!
As I was paying the chap said "don't go trying for a PB the first time you wear them. If it happens, fine, but don't push for it".
Just been for a 30 minute run over lunch and, according to Endomondo, I achieved not one but two PBs!  And I wasn't pushing, just enjoying the sunshine. The PBs were for mile and Cooper distance (how far in 12 minutes).
I feel :smug:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on March 04, 2013, 06:03:05 pm
Still not finished NHS Couch to 5k programme.  It was supposed to take 9 weeks and all.....
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 04, 2013, 06:08:51 pm
Stick at it Brian. As long as you made it off the couch, you're doing OK!


(You did, didn't you ...  ? )
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: SteveC on March 04, 2013, 08:22:13 pm
Brian did get off the couch as he and I were sending supporting PMs before Christmas.  I was lucky as I was working away so had a very fixed timetable with two 'easy' slots for getting out running.  Brian wasn't so fortunate as college isn't as structured. 

But college in the Scottish highlands or being stuck away from home for eight months doing a fairly frustrating job--all the fortune wasn't on my side.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mike on March 05, 2013, 06:33:16 pm
i've had a hate / hate relationship with running for ages but was bullied into entering two longish triathlons this year and, remembering my miserable 1/2 IM a few years ago (2.30 half marathon) thought I should try and get better at my least favourite part...

I bought a book! (Hansons Marathon Method, although I have no plans to run a marathon this year...)

& I realised how stupid I've been - I've been running too damn fast!  I could do 6 miles, but it'd be 5 or 6 minutes running @ 8.30 / 9.00 minute miles, then I'd need a minute walking to recover, then repeat till I get home, absolutely knackered.   And I kept getting injured. 

So I've slowed down to 10.30 / 11.00 minute miles and it's easy!  I ran for over an hour on sunday, and just been out for half an hour and it was easy and almost fun!

the books got me doing a month of easy runs, building up the weekly mileage then starting to bring in quicker runs at different intensity and times, so I'm going to try and stick with it and see where it gets me. I should at least lose some lard which will help with the cycling too.

But I do feel a bit of a fool.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on March 06, 2013, 10:24:17 am
Don't beat yourself up about it. Since I started getting into running less than a year ago, I've found pacing the hardest thing to get right.

I guess I probably had the same trouble with cycling once upon a time but I've been doing that for so long that I have a much better feel for it.

d.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on March 07, 2013, 06:33:53 pm
IMHO, most cyclists get over this problem quite quickly, cos we ride for much longer than we can run. If you're doing a ride of 2hrs or more, you learn about pacing pretty quickly! All day rides just can't be done at 'tempo'.

Also you can ride on the flat at almost no effort if you slow down enough, and it doesn't feel like 'stopping' - but if you stop to walk on a run it can feel like defeat!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on March 07, 2013, 07:05:53 pm
I don't think I have any trouble pacing myself at running and I think I do well pacing myself at cycling. That is untill I ride a short distance TT where I don't have a clue. On a short TT I usualy accellerate for all I'm worth then go straight into oxygen debt.
Maybe I should try using a HRM...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on March 19, 2013, 03:34:47 pm
Determined to get my Parkrun time under 20 minutes, so I think it's about time I did some proper training...

Hence I had a go at some intervals this lunchtime - 5x 1km at race pace with 2mins rest between each km (a plan I found on the internet designed for improving 5k times). First three splits were 3.47, 3.57, 3.57... but I got a bit slower after that... Bloody hard work, but kind of fun. I think I'll try to do that regularly.

Need to find a better spot for it though - the Embankment is a bit too busy at lunchtimes.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on April 03, 2013, 10:33:10 am
\o/

NHS Couch to 5K all finished!   :thumbsup:

(OK, so it took a fair bit longer than the planned nine weeks though....)

Now, what to do next?

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 03, 2013, 10:34:33 am
5.1?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Ewan Houzami on April 03, 2013, 11:25:10 am
Yippee! I've finally found an effective DIY way to loosen my tight hip rotators (specifically myofascial release of piriformis/gluteus medius?), meaning I can increase my stride length.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0kxDkcpk22A

I found it a bit painful at first (masochists will enjoy it), but it doesn't hurt at all after a few days.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on April 08, 2013, 04:15:02 pm
Did the NHS Couch to 5k+ "Stepping stone" podcast today.  Quite a fast paced run, but rather enjoyable.
Also mapped out the usual route that i've been using for the C25K  programme - by week 9 I was running 6.3km in the 30 minutes!

Also signed up for my local Park Run!   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on April 09, 2013, 10:53:05 am
Well done, Brian. That's really good progress.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on April 11, 2013, 06:36:23 am
Apparently BSE is getting parkrun in "early summer". I make that about 6-10 weeks then to sort out my knee (again) & then me & No1Daughter, who is also running with Zombies, might get ourselves along there for that.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on April 17, 2013, 04:12:13 pm
Last night was a 5k TT, I wasn't mentally prepared for that, (and I'd have taken body pump/spinning a bit easier in the morning!) so really pleased with a decent 17.09.

Yeah, I'd be pretty pleased with that, even without the body pump/spinning.  ;D

Quote
Followed it up with a pretty good 18 miler before work today.


I was going to ask how you find the time, but as with cycling, I guess being quicker helps.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 17, 2013, 04:17:31 pm
Out the door by 5am, jobs a good'un.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on April 17, 2013, 04:28:09 pm
Out the door by 5am, jobs a good'un.

How long does 18 miles take you? Under two hours? It would be nearer three hours for me.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: SteveC on April 23, 2013, 02:39:28 pm
Did the NHS Couch to 5k+ "Stepping stone" podcast today.  Quite a fast paced run, but rather enjoyable.
I tried that for the first time today. Not a success. I just couldn't get onto the beats. Part of it was that the rhythm didn't feel natural for my running style and part was that I'm really not into that sort of music. Mind, it was also my first run for three weeks and my knee is playing up so it probably wasn't a fair trial.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on April 24, 2013, 12:59:49 pm
Just before easter as a challenge to the middle aged spread, 3 friends and I arranged that we would each run 10k in a simultaneous marathon relay (OK, that's 2k short so someone had to draw the short straw.) We did it,with PB and longest runs for two of us. It was a sub 4h run too so we were quite pleased. Now we have decided to get more folk involved. It is purely a personal challenge in public - we have a brand new FB page where people can sign up to say they will do it and then post when they have. Our modes ambition is to do 100k next time round (in a couple of weeks) and then to build on this every 6 weeks or so.

Anyone can get involved. It is run under Audax rules, ie the credit is for doing it, not in any finishing order, time band or age related position. Web page at https://www.facebook.com/TheInternational10kRun
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on April 24, 2013, 04:35:40 pm
Back on the treadmill at work, starting back into it slowly.

20 mins at 6.6mph. HRmax of 181bpm (better than I'd expected).

The fan has disappeared from the gym so it's a little airless and stuffy in there, but better than nothing (and only £8 a month!)

Just need to lose 14kg to get back to what I was about 4 years ago (in the run up to LEL).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on April 27, 2013, 02:14:31 pm
Off to the Dundee Parkrun today. My first parkrun - what an excellent idea. It is quite a hilly course and downhills are not my thing, but I found my pace, struggled a bit towards the end on top of my third consecutive day of running having done very little. Made it round in 28.30ish (according to the strava segment) with which I was quite pleased. Unfortunately it was a bit muddy. i decided that it would be a good plan to get a second pair of shoes so that I have a gym pair and an outdoor pair so stopped off at the running shop just up the road from me and am now the proud owner of a pair of Saucony Jazz. They fit like a glove and the shop owner (who I have seen around and about at many events anyway) let me try them outside as it was clean and dry.)  First run with them will be Monday I think. Ride to work and run home.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 27, 2013, 02:22:20 pm
Off to the Dundee Parkrun today. My first parkrun - what an excellent idea. It is quite a hilly course and downhills are not my thing, but I found my pace, struggled a bit towards the end on top of my third consecutive day of running having done very little.
They're great aren't they :)

I've rediscovered our local today - haven't run it since October due to flooding, and I got fed up of checking the status. reeeeally enjoyed myself (despite temps back to March levels :( )

Not sure about 3 days in a row all-of-a-sudden David - running is a harsh mistress, don't do too much too soon  :hand:

[I'm also not remotely sure about any product name incorporating 'Jazz', but as long as you're happy ... ]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on April 27, 2013, 02:27:03 pm
Well it wasn't really intended. I ran home on Thursday, then discovered that Friday was run to work day, so it would be rude not to, then today was the parkrun. Rest day tomorrow.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on April 27, 2013, 04:42:08 pm
I was on marshalling duty this morning - saving my legs for tomorrow's tri. It's good to see parkrun from a different angle for a change, and helps you appreciate just how good they are. I enjoyed clapping and cheering everyone on, and in the end, accompanied the tail-ender back to the finish for the final km - she took about 45mins overall, which she was quite pleased with and rightly so, since it's a time trial, so a good time is what's good by your standards, not by anyone else's standards.

We've got a few new runs either just started or starting soon in Kent, so I'm aiming to become a parkrun tourist and try them all out. Some will involve a decent bike ride to get to the start too...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 27, 2013, 04:56:23 pm
Wot no tail-runner?

(Mind you, I guess events vary - I believe LC's has official pacers! )

WOOHOO: result just pinged onto my phone - 25sec PB!

Lots of long steady runs does actually make you faster :) I haven't done a timed event since January, and negligible interval stuff.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on April 27, 2013, 07:26:32 pm
Result pinged on my phone too. 28:00 exactly! Pleased with that as my aim was sub 30 (or less than 2x the first home, which was 18 mins (they reckon this course is about 90-120 secs slower than a flat 5k.) and was just over half way up the field.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on April 28, 2013, 08:26:21 am
Well done David!

I've still to try my local-ish parkrun at Cramond. I've registered, got my park run barcordes, just needing to get motivated to try in one Saturday!   :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: davelodwig on April 29, 2013, 10:51:52 am
8K this morning, polished it off in 55.50, though I'm hideously overweight and I'm often surprised I get up any hills.

I'm doing the 2 castles 10K in June and am hoping i'll have kicked my ass enough to turn out a (just) sub 1 hour 10K.

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on April 29, 2013, 11:09:00 am
Well done, David M and Matt C. Good efforts.

Wot no tail-runner?

Yes, but she was several minutes ahead.  :facepalm:

However, the back marker was also accompanied by her husband, who had already finished, and she's an old hand, so didn't need the tail-runner. I just tagged along to give support.

We have official pacers on ours too, though on an ad hoc basis rather than a standing fixture - anyone who wants to volunteer to be an official pacer can do so - there are appropriately marked hi-vis vests in the kit bag.

Quote
Lots of long steady runs does actually make you faster :) I haven't done a timed event since January, and negligible interval stuff.

True dat.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: davelodwig on April 30, 2013, 08:41:34 am
9K this morning,

I'm getting there.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on April 30, 2013, 08:48:01 am
According to Strava I now have a PR for 1/2 mile, 1k (exactly 5:00) and 1 mile (8:00) from the run in this morning. Slowly rediscovering a rhythm and teetering on the edge of jog -> run in terms of technique (I can hit a proper run but not for very long). Quite tricky when it is lumpy, with a rucksack and an all up weight >100kg. The calf muscles are slowly getting used to it - another few weeks and I should be able to run rather than jog for 5k. Average pace for 4.2k this morning was 5:19. Getting towards the tipping point when my fitness is such that it can maintain a pace rather than struggling to maintain a jog.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on April 30, 2013, 05:40:29 pm
Er... most of my training runs are done at slower than 8min-miles! And most of our midweek Running Club groups are 8mm or slower - for 5 miles.
It may be a lot slower than we can race at, but I'd still call it "running"  :(

(Perhaps by "run" you mean a racing pace? wodeva, it's just words I guess!)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on April 30, 2013, 06:00:11 pm
I thought the difference was one of intent - you run for a bus, you jog for exercise. ;)

Edit: Slightly less facetiously, I tend to think of "running" as having some kind of competitive element. If it's purely recreational, it's "jogging". Somewhere in between the two is "training". I don't think the difference is purely down to pace.

Edit 2: out of interest, I googled it and discovered that apparently, the default setting on Garmin devices is for sub-8min miles to be classified as running, and any slower to count as jogging. So David M is in line with Garmin's way of thinking, at least.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 01, 2013, 06:48:26 am
Edit 2: out of interest, I googled it and discovered that apparently, the default setting on Garmin devices is for sub-8min miles to be classified as running, and any slower to count as jogging. So David M is in line with Garmin's way of thinking, at least.
There is some good news here: this means it's pretty unfeasible for me to 'run' a marathon. So I needn't worry about not meeting that particular challenge :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Martin 14 on May 01, 2013, 08:15:28 am
Edit 2: out of interest, I googled it and discovered that apparently, the default setting on Garmin devices is for sub-8min miles to be classified as running, and any slower to count as jogging. So David M is in line with Garmin's way of thinking, at least.
There is some good news here: this means it's pretty unfeasible for me to 'run' a marathon. So I needn't worry about not meeting that particular challenge :)

My daughter who runs with Sittingbourne Striders, says thats OK Matt, its perfectly acceptable to jog one  ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on May 03, 2013, 05:03:57 pm
Er... most of my training runs are done at slower than 8min-miles! And most of our midweek Running Club groups are 8mm or slower - for 5 miles.
It may be a lot slower than we can race at, but I'd still call it "running"  :(

(Perhaps by "run" you mean a racing pace? wodeva, it's just words I guess!)

I actually think it is more of a gait thing, like the difference between a horse doing a walk, canter, trot and gallop. I'd suggest it is a matter of technique.
Jogging is essentially upright and in balance where one foot is usually in contact with the ground.
Run1 is also essentially upright - you can readily stop in a couple of strides and are in a stable balance. Pace is generally quite short - on uneven ground you will be running into bumps rather than running over them.
Run2 is a lengthened gait where much of the time is spent out of balance (falling forward and dynamically stable). You will not be able to stop within a few strides  - it will take some distance to reassert balance and stop. Typically a much lengthened gait.

Shifting between the two definitely feels like going up a gear.

'race pace' is a function of the individual. For some race pace is a brisk walk, for others it is well into 'run2' and limited by their aerobic capacity rather than legs.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 03, 2013, 05:52:11 pm
My daughter who runs with Sittingbourne Striders, says thats OK Matt, its perfectly acceptable to jog one  ;D
That's very sweet of her!

ANYHOO ... Wiki uses the definition that I'm familiar with for "running":
 It is simply defined in athletics terms as a gait in which at regular points during the running cycle both feet are off the ground. This is in contrast to walking, where one foot is always in contact with the ground ...

DM's right in that one's gait changes with speed (of running!), although clearly it's a continuum. I do think that this variation in gait/technique is what makes run training a lot more complex than for cycling. On the bike you can do all your training with the same position, cadence, pedalling style, and with a bit of cunning variation in effort level, pretty much achieve any training goal.

On the other hand, I think that with running - and I stress I'm still only beginning to understand all this - you really do need to run with a variety of gaits/speeds, and you need to run with your race 'gait' for a reasonable amount of time for perfect preparation. [but there's a load of overlap - I've done negligible sprint training this winter, just plodding, yet felt quite happy running km5 last week flat out. That's not to say that speed-specific training wouldn't have made me faster ... ]

No doubt someone properly qualified can tell me what bolox this is :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on May 03, 2013, 06:02:10 pm
Sort of a continuum, but there are points where there are natural rhythms. Much easier to run at those points than slower or faster. These will change with fitness and weight.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 03, 2013, 06:32:05 pm
I don't believe that. Either you've trained mostly at those specific speeds, or it's all in your head.

There's a 'running' speed below which walking becomes more efficient - but I don't think that's what you're talking about. IMO it's definitely a continuum.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on May 04, 2013, 10:48:49 am
went to a parkrun today after two months break and set a pb! i'm still confused and thinking what i've done differently before and during the run (nothing!). anyway, well chuffed to get under 19min for the first time - 18:56!
otoh, the guy that was consistently finishing half a minute behind me now finished half a minute ahead of me - he must be doing some training (and became noticeably leaner as well).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 04, 2013, 11:53:40 am
Nice one, zigzag!

I was hoping for sub-21 mins today but didn't quite manage it. Good training though - doing a local 10k on Monday, my first time at the distance under "race conditions".
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on May 04, 2013, 07:36:28 pm
Ran home from the lab. 6.3km or therabouts. 35 minsish. First 3k into a stiff headwind, next 1.5 with 60m ascent. Then added about 3 miles walking onto it this afternoon. I ache a little now.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 05, 2013, 07:13:34 pm
I've been catching up on some running 'social networking' sites. Couple of amusing videos:

From the US 50miles champs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPx5mSZmkP8

Comments demonstrate a bit of UK/US schism:

US:
Way to go Vicky! Inspiring. Love the Rocky music at the end.
... etc ....

UK:
Elizabeth Ellis: This gets my vote for the most irritating husband award! How anyone can run 50 miles with him carping on in the background is beyond me.

Meanwhile, this is my favourite from the VLM so far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCqSXbayHh0

[both from Marathon Talk, which I really rate]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 06, 2013, 03:58:14 pm
44.41 on today's 10k. Thought I wasn't going to break the 45min barrier but I put on a strong finish - splits in final 2km were 4.16 and 3.54! Very pleased with that.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on May 06, 2013, 08:39:47 pm
ran the nearly 5k home via the observatory (average 5.1% for a 100m height gain). Elapsed time was over 2mins faster than moving time last time (32 andabit vs 34andalot) but the phone had failed to lock a GPS signal so no record for Strava :( Seemed to have over run on the calf as it is rather tight and painful.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on May 07, 2013, 09:12:06 am
Left calf still very tight this morning so went in gently. About 6 min/km pace with a stretch stop part way. Walked the last 300m (of the 4.2km) to try to ease it.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on May 07, 2013, 09:29:39 am
good effort citoyen and David! i was planning to do some riding on sunday/monday, but my legs were still very sore and stiff after the parkrun, so ended up doing housework instead (which was long overdue)..
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on May 07, 2013, 12:04:54 pm
Lower left calf feels like it has spasmed or cramped and is very tight and a little painful. Probably ease back and not run until the weekend
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 07, 2013, 12:26:43 pm
On the other hand, I think that with running - and I stress I'm still only beginning to understand all this - you really do need to run with a variety of gaits/speeds, and you need to run with your race 'gait' for a reasonable amount of time for perfect preparation. [but there's a load of overlap - I've done negligible sprint training this winter, just plodding, yet felt quite happy running km5 last week flat out. That's not to say that speed-specific training wouldn't have made me faster ... ]

No doubt someone properly qualified can tell me what bolox this is :)

A friend of mine is a big fan of chi running, which - to over-simplify - advocates shorter strides and higher cadence. Since he has been following chi running principles, he has developed a very elegant running style and has got noticeably faster. He also gets fewer injuries. I think I need to look into it myself...

http://www.chirunning.com/
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: davelodwig on May 07, 2013, 12:50:28 pm
10k this morning before work, Got out and back in 1:12:54.

The first 7k felt fine just moving along comfortably, the last 1k was interesting, but at least it was downhill.

On the other hand, I think that with running - and I stress I'm still only beginning to understand all this - you really do need to run with a variety of gaits/speeds, and you need to run with your race 'gait' for a reasonable amount of time for perfect preparation. [but there's a load of overlap - I've done negligible sprint training this winter, just plodding, yet felt quite happy running km5 last week flat out. That's not to say that speed-specific training wouldn't have made me faster ... ]

No doubt someone properly qualified can tell me what bolox this is :)

A friend of mine is a big fan of chi running, which - to over-simplify - advocates shorter strides and higher cadence. Since he has been following chi running principles, he has developed a very elegant running style and has got noticeably faster. He also gets fewer injuries. I think I need to look into it myself...

http://www.chirunning.com/

When I started running in regular running shoes, I was suffering from pain in the shins, I've since switched to barefoot shoes and modified my gait and how I land my feet and all the pain (apart from the tired pain) has gone. I get sore feet towards the end of a new distance but I seem to adapt fairly quickly.

I might take a look at this chi running and see if I can tie it with the barefoot.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 07, 2013, 12:52:03 pm
My chi-running friend runs in barefoot shoes, so it's definitely compatible.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 07, 2013, 11:00:49 pm
<searches ...>

This thread fisrt discussed barefoot* running in 2010, but this looks like the nicest resource to start with:

Those intrigued by the barefoot running thing might want a look at this 15 minute TED talk by Born to Run author McDougall (it's not new so you might already of seen it):

http://www.ted.com/talks/christopher_mcdougall_are_we_born_to_run.html

I'm not at all convinced he's got his evolutionary history right but I still find him quite inspiring.

"We are the biggest sissies in the jungle. Every other animal is stronger than we are — they have fangs, they have claws, they have nimbleness, they have speed. We think Usain Bolt is fast — Usain Bolt can get his ass kicked by a squirrel.” (Christopher McDougall)

*see also Chi, POSE etc etc ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: teethgrinder on May 08, 2013, 07:46:11 am
A friend of mine is a big fan of chi running, which - to over-simplify - advocates shorter strides and higher cadence. Since he has been following chi running principles, he has developed a very elegant running style and has got noticeably faster. He also gets fewer injuries. I think I need to look into it myself...

http://www.chirunning.com/

I know pretty much sod all about running. When I played at it in 2010 and 2012 I did what I thought would reduce the risk of injury and applied what I knew from cycling to running.
I went for short strides at high cadence too. I figured that jumping from a great height once would be more damaging than jumping from a much lesser height many times and scaled that down to my running stride.
Also that pushing a big gear (big strides) requires strength, which I don't have for running (and that really showed up when I did the marathon last year!) Neither do I have good fleibility.
I managed to get around a marathon with 3 months of minimal training injury free, though I wasn't over the moon with the time it took, which isn't really surprising.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 11, 2013, 10:36:08 am
Just smashed my Parkrun PB! 20.28! Over the flipping moon!

Bearing in mind that the route is slightly over distance (according to my GPS I did an extra 65 metres today, which took 11 seconds) and there's a bit of a slope in the middle of the circuit that doesn't seem too steep but is deceptive and I reckon adds on about 10 seconds per lap (the course is two laps)... I reckon I could definitely do sub 20 minutes on a flat, accurately measured course. Really chuffed with that performance though - it's at least 15 seconds off my old PB.

I reckon shedding a few more kilos would definitely help too - I'm about 69kg at the moment, which is a healthy enough weight, but I'm aiming for a "race weight" of 64kg, which is probably enough to make a difference to my time, especially on a non-flat course. (And would help me get up hills faster on my bike too, of course.)

Edit: according to Strava, my actual pace was 4.03min/km but my grade adjusted pace was 3.58min/km. I'll have that!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 11, 2013, 04:00:39 pm
Somewhere on this thread I posted some estimate for time-gained-per-kg of weight loss, wot I found on the internet. It seems to be pretty accurate over quite a range of people.

You gain a lot more time than you would on the bike, for similar weight loss. Could be good motivation for that diet.

(Of course if you really want to go under 20mins, find a track event!)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 11, 2013, 09:30:07 pm
Thanks - I'll have a root back through the thread for that when I have proper computer access. Sounds interesting.

And yes, I could definitely go sub-20 on the track but much as I want to break that barrier, there's more to life than just registering a time - one of the things I love about parkrun is the scenery...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on May 11, 2013, 11:14:36 pm
Missed it today as I went hill walking. But I am supposed to be doing a personal 10k challenge tomorrow. *gulp*
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 11, 2013, 11:31:37 pm
Good luck!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 13, 2013, 12:49:47 pm
Just had a look at the times posted on the new Ramsgate parkrun that started at the weekend. Interesting. Most of the people who took part who have also run the Whitstable parkrun (my local one) achieved significantly faster times on the Ramsgate course - over a minute faster in quite a few cases.

I think I've found the answer to my quest for a sub-20 time!  ;D

And to think I would have cycled over to do the Ramsgate run if I'd managed to get out of bed in time on Saturday. Definitely going to give it a go very soon though - I'll just have to remember to keep the effort low on the ride over (it's about 18 miles) to save some juice for the run. It'll be good tri training too.

The times posted on the Margate course seem generally a bit quicker too.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 13, 2013, 01:03:09 pm
Somewhere on this thread I posted some estimate for time-gained-per-kg of weight loss, wot I found on the internet. It seems to be pretty accurate over quite a range of people.

You gain a lot more time than you would on the bike, for similar weight loss. Could be good motivation for that diet.

This was posted on tritalk:
http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/diet/weighteffect

According to that, I only have to get down to 67kg to go sub-20, and I could be looking at sub-19 minutes if I get my weight down to my target 64kg.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on May 13, 2013, 04:36:38 pm
Bailed my 20 minute run halfway as my back was hurting. Not enough core strength to cope with my flabbiness.

Opted for 10 minutes on the step machine (keeping heart rate ~ 170bpm) and then 1000m on the rowing machine as punishment for being weak.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: David Martin on May 13, 2013, 04:52:30 pm
The 10K didn't happen - combination of a cold and rather painful legs. I'm not sure what the best approach is - to run gently on aching legs. To rest completely. or to just MTFU and get on with it.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 24, 2013, 02:44:10 pm
Slightly OT: I've found that GPS watches overestimate running distance by a small amount. I've done comparison tests over routes with them mounted on the handlebars cycling, and on my wrist when running, and the handlebar mounted result is always much closer to my cateye computer result/measured off Gmap-pedometer. I'm wondering if your arm swinging to-and-fro adds some complication, especially as there's a running GPS out now which claims to smooth that out (a Suunto? I forget which one).

Interesting. I've not heard that one before. I do notice a fair bit of variation in the measured distance - my local parkrun varies from 5.01 to 5.07km according to my Garmin, even though it's exactly the same route every week, and even when there are no obvious GPS glitches. It's possible that I'm starting and/or finishing in slightly different places each week but not enough to account for a 60 metre variation!

The 10k race I did a few weeks ago clocked as exactly 10km - which probably means it was actually short...


Quote
This can get irritating on longer races so if I'm racing and want accurate splits, I'll hit the lap button every so often when I pass a roadside distance marker to re-set the distances,

That's a good idea. I might try that as well.

Quote
like the Town & Gown 10k the other week where I hit the "lap" as I passed the 5k point: Garmin Connect (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/311485703).

That's a bizarrely convoluted looking route! Good time though.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Lady Cavendish on May 24, 2013, 03:05:53 pm
GPS's aren't *that* accurate. Plus, you are never going to run the exact racing line.

An accurately measured 5k will always come out around 3.14 or 3.15 miles at best, not 3.11. And that is with a good line run.

It's standard for a marathon to be 26.5 or 26.6 on the garmin. This doesn't mean the course is long. If I had £1 for the amount of times I've heard 'the course was long'...............

Regarding the weight calculator things, extra lbs make a huge difference. But it's not quite as simple as lose x lbs will make me x seconds faster. It's even there on the bottom of the calculator 'this calculation is based on the (unrealistic) assumption that the change in weight is not accompanied by any other change.' It makes a massive difference, but don't just assume at x weight you will run x time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 25, 2013, 05:01:26 pm
It's standard for a marathon to be 26.5 or 26.6 on the garmin. This doesn't mean the course is long. If I had £1 for the amount of times I've heard 'the course was long'...............

Fair point.

I did the Ramsgate parkrun today and it came in at 4.88km on my Garmin - I can understand over-distance on a GPS but under-distance? By that much? Hmm. Explains the fast times though!

I ran 20.15, which is kind of disappointing given the flat course and the short distance, but on the other hand, I had cycled 30km at a moderate-to-brisk pace to the start, which probably took more out of me than I realised, plus I was a touch wheezy with hayfever. Also, I went off too fast at the start - first km in 3.50 - and paid for it later. Foolishly tried to keep up with some very fast runners rather than keeping an eye on my pacer (the winner finished in 15.30).

Quote
Regarding the weight calculator things, extra lbs make a huge difference. But it's not quite as simple as lose x lbs will make me x seconds faster. It's even there on the bottom of the calculator 'this calculation is based on the (unrealistic) assumption that the change in weight is not accompanied by any other change.' It makes a massive difference, but don't just assume at x weight you will run x time.

Of course. I'm taking it as read that all other things are equal in making that assumption about time differences, but well aware that's not how it works in the real world. The matter is discussed at greater length in the thread on tritalk where I got the link from.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 25, 2013, 05:05:40 pm
The 10K didn't happen - combination of a cold and rather painful legs. I'm not sure what the best approach is - to run gently on aching legs. To rest completely. or to just MTFU and get on with it.

Bit late to answer this now but I would say rest completely, or some very gentle exercise (maybe just a walk rather than a run). MTFU is fine as a philosophy but you could just end up injuring yourself.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on May 25, 2013, 05:11:58 pm
parkruns are runs, not races - so I don't think anyone enforces accurate distances  ;D
(plus they're off-road, so it's only really course PBs that mean anything, surely?)

I've always said that GPSes are for position not distance - but there's a whole nother forum (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=63.0) for that discussion...


I managed about 300m this morning - calf strain still clearly not right, grumble whinge. Then retired to my post ready to scan barcodes.

One runner found a new way to screw the system - as I was scanning her athlete barcode, she casually tossed her finishing tag into the box with all the others  :o


Got a cut-n-paste thankyou text later - better than nothing I guess :)

[ Scanning is a much better job than marshalling. You can doss about until the 'winner' arrives, then it's pretty much all busy busy until the end, it's fun dealing with totally fecked runners. And you don't have to walk miles! ]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 25, 2013, 05:20:41 pm
parkruns are runs, not races - so I don't think anyone enforces accurate distances  ;D

I suppose in a lot of cases they're constrained by having to fit it into a certain sized/shaped park. It would be difficult to add an extra 120m to the course of the one I did today.

It would be churlish to complain given they're free to enter and run by volunteers.

Quote
(plus they're off-road, so it's only really course PBs that mean anything, surely?)

Indeed. I wouldn't compare a time on one parkrun course to a time on another. Totally irrelevant. I'll have to find a track-based event if I want to get my definitive 5k time.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on May 31, 2013, 07:00:05 pm
Today I volunteered to take part in this:
http://hellyhansenbeautyandthebeast.co.uk/

...as part of a team of three, mind. I kind of like the *idea* of doing the whole thing, but having never done a full marathon over *easy* terrain, doing one on that kind of terrain might be biting off more than I can chew.

Should be fun!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: davelodwig on June 03, 2013, 12:30:37 pm
In the wind down before my 10k race on Saturday.

I'm taking part in the 2 castles run, from Warwick castle to Kenilworth castle, after my last 10k on Sunday I'm pretty confident that I'm going to get all 102KG of me round in just under an hour, based on my race pace usually being 30 to 45 seconds a km faster than normal days running.

This is a pretty big deal for me as all I've done in the last 2 years of running is stuff on my own and a couple of 5k park runs, While I might not be fast in comparison to others the 6 / 6.30 km's I'm doing now are miles better than the 10 minute km I started with.

Might do a half marathon next...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 03, 2013, 08:11:47 pm
Good luck, dl!

I've just done the Sri Chinmoy 5k in Battersea Park - first in a series of Monday evening 5k races throughout summer. Great setting and what a beautiful evening for it (despite the high pollen levels causing wheeziness and streaming eyes and nose). Nice fast course too - got round in 20.16, which I'm pretty pleased with.

Lovely way to end what has otherwise been a pretty shitty day. Might do some more of these...

http://uk.srichinmoyraces.org/races/london
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 03, 2013, 11:48:00 pm
I've been a bit reluctant to talk about this, but ... <deep breath>

I recently did my first Hash run: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_House_Harriers

I know they won't appeal to everyone (!), but they have a lot going for them. I don't think I've done any other social sporting activity that caters so well for a range of abilities. They're like an off-road fartlek session, on a route someone else has devised, where everyone goes at their own pace, but you're guaranteed to run with others, and can chat - ending up at a pub.(I wonder which YACF moderator seems most likely to have done this sort of thing ... )

Although I've only done the one, I think the groups vary a lot in terms of the alcohol consumption, and the extent of the bizarre rituals (luckily there are several groups within my range!). They're mostly weekday evening affairs (or weekends in winter), plus the various national and international gatherings.

(At some point I shall investigate Bike Hashes.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 04, 2013, 11:11:00 am
Running and drinking? Sounds like my idea of fun!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 05, 2013, 12:01:08 am
Mentioned H3 to my dad. He's well aware of their work. He was acquainted with the Port Of Spain branch for a while when he was working out there. Described them as "drinkers with a running problem" and "dangerous". ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: SteveC on June 05, 2013, 06:42:37 pm
Did a barn dance for one of our local H3 groups.  Possibly the least romantic Valentine's event I've ever been to!  But it was fun.
They described themselves as 'Drinkers with a running problem'.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 07, 2013, 09:25:39 am
I used to be in the cross-country team for my grammar school, and although we were aware of Hashing we considered it a bit of a posh toff's sport, 
Actually I was expecting something related to the hunting/shooting/fishing type culture, but they don't seem to be that sort at all.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 20, 2013, 10:26:18 am
There's a few new lines in this:

http://iancorless.org/2013/06/12/you-know-you-are-an-ultra-runner-when/
(a few ring very true from my Audax trips)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on June 20, 2013, 09:54:07 pm
inspired by mattc's link, decided to run 7km to the bike shop to pick up the prize i won two weeks ago :)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zSSo4aZ837s/UcNqwp0jtUI/AAAAAAAAC7E/eGQ9vipPb3o/s640/photo%25282%2529.jpg)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on June 20, 2013, 10:48:00 pm
You lucky bugger!

(&  :thumbsup: for a green healthy collection method)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on June 21, 2013, 08:15:59 am
Nice one, zigzag!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on June 25, 2013, 04:41:03 pm
Starting again (for the twelftieth time).

20 minutes on the treadmill at 10.5kph. HRmax at 179bpm so quite hard work. Didn't feel too bad and a bit easier given I'm under 90kg. Hopefully it'll get easier as the weight comes off.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on July 15, 2013, 12:38:49 pm
Hit a bit of a landmark on Saturday - my 50th Parkrun!

Looking forward to getting my nice red T-shirt. (Not sure what size to ask for though - does anyone know whether they come up big or small? Can't find any proper info on sizing anywhere.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: SteveC on July 30, 2013, 11:49:06 pm
Got in tonight to find the village magazine on the doormat. A parkrun is starting in the village from September. I may be running out of excuses.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on July 31, 2013, 12:31:01 pm
Any thoughts on how to improve running style, specifically excessive heel strike?

I'm going to start again. Last time round, I built up the distance a little too quickly perhaps, and when at the stage where 10 km was comfortable, completely fractured my heel bone. Thought to be a combination of rubbish shoes, heel strike, and overly rapid build-up.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on July 31, 2013, 01:00:48 pm
Have you looked at Chi Running? I mentioned it upthread. My friend swears by it - since he adopted Chi Running principles, he claims to have both reduced injuries and increased speed. (I'm still a fair bit quicker than him though. ;D )

http://www.chirunning.com/
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on July 31, 2013, 09:10:36 pm
Have you looked at Chi Running? I mentioned it upthread. My friend swears by it - since he adopted Chi Running principles, he claims to have both reduced injuries and increased speed. (I'm still a fair bit quicker than him though. ;D )

http://www.chirunning.com/

I'll give it a read later, thanks. My Pilates place has a physio who does running classes, I'm waiting for the next one to be scheduled.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on August 01, 2013, 08:33:28 am
Oops, looks like my running-fu has fu off and ran away :-/  Not ran in months now!   ::-)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: SteveC on August 01, 2013, 06:29:34 pm
These Parkrun things.  What are they like to take part in? Friendly? Ultra-competitive?
As mentioned up thread, there's one starting in my village. I was discussing this with a friend at work who's rather more of a runner than me, but she says she's slow (must be 'and stead' because she's done several half-marathons) and didn't want to be finishing ages after everyone else.
I'd be hoping for a time around 30 minutes.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 02, 2013, 11:57:18 am
These Parkrun things.  What are they like to take part in? Friendly? Ultra-competitive?

Both!

As a participant, I tend to be quite competitive - I'll never win outright, but there are a few regulars who run around the same time as me and we always try to beat each other. But in a very good-natured way. It's always handshakes and congratulations all round at the finish.

As a helper, I cheer on everyone equally from the fastest to the slowest. On a couple of occasions, I've accompanied the back marker through the last kilometre or so, giving them encouragement all the way.

And I can assure you that if you run around 30 minutes, you will be far from the slowest (times on my local parkrun tend to range from 17 to 40 minutes).
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: SteveC on August 03, 2013, 04:26:30 pm
Thanks citoyen

I'll pass the message on.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 05, 2013, 03:05:03 pm
Question for the likes of Lady C, Oranj, or any of you other longer-distance runners...

What do you do for hydration?

I went for an 18km/90mins run in the woods yesterday. I didn't take anything to drink with me and there was nowhere to get anything en route, so I had to manage without. I just about got away with it but it's probably not the most sensible policy. I certainly wouldn't want to go any longer than that without having access to liquid.

I thought about using my Camelbak, but didn't fancy having that weight on my back. Maybe I should give it a go.

Are those belts with holsters for water bottles any good?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: JJ on August 06, 2013, 02:05:52 pm
David,
as you know I'm not in the same league as those guys, but I pushed it out to 30K a couple of weeks ago ahead of a race and I need to get in some more long-ish ones in the weeks ahead, so I'm interested.

I've been scavenging those 500ml Coke bottles from people who drink the stuff at work, and running with one of those full of electrolyte in my hand.  When it's empty, I just dump it in a waste bin, or in someone's recycling bin - round here, they're blue.

In the hottest weather, I found that wasn't enough and begged water from strangers in their gardens.

Some folk I know go round the morning or the evening before by bike, and stash bottles in hedges.  I was thinking of trying that.  It might work quite well with the disposable scavenged bottle approach.  In fact I meant to do that today, but I didn't get going early enough  ::-)

I also carry a couple of Isogel sachets, as they claim not to need as much water to go with them, but I don't really know if that makes sense given I am presumably just carrying the extra water in the gel anyway.

Interested to hear other's approaches.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 06, 2013, 02:32:50 pm
In the hottest weather, I found that wasn't enough and begged water from strangers in their gardens.

I like your thinking!

Quote
Some folk I know go round the morning or the evening before by bike, and stash bottles in hedges.

I had a similar idea - my route on Sunday was a "lollipop" (out and back with a loop at the end) and I thought of taking a bottle with me and stashing it in a hedge at the start of the loop, to pick up on the way back, but I was a bit wary of doing that - you never know what creatures might have a go at it, or do their doings on it...

I think maybe I'll just have to use my Camelbak and get used to it. It's what it's for, to be fair. There's also space in my Osprey Talon backpack to fit a hydration bladder, so I can use that too - it might be more comfortable to run with than the Camelbak as it has more in the way of supporting straps.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on August 06, 2013, 03:35:20 pm
I thought it was de rigour to carry these:
(http://jamesdonaldavis.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/bottle.jpg)
All the ladies walking 'briskly' round Needham Lake have them. (I overtake them on my way back from the shop, but they must be doing it properly as they've trainers and water bottles).

(more here (http://www.fitsugar.com/Best-Handheld-Water-Bottles-Running-15024300))
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 06, 2013, 04:35:53 pm
I thought it was de rigour to carry these:

I don't like having to carry stuff. I like to have my hands free for things like waving flirtatiously at lady runners, running through my hair (while I still have some), adjusting my shorts/scratching my bum etc. JJ's suggestion of disposable bottles would be better, except there are no bins in the woods...

Having said that, some of the bottles in that piece you've linked to do look quite nifty.

Quote
All the ladies walking 'briskly' round Needham Lake have them. (I overtake them on my way back from the shop, but they must be doing it properly as they've trainers and water bottles).

 ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: JJ on August 06, 2013, 06:11:22 pm
Do you take your hands out of your shorts before waving flirtatiously?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 07, 2013, 10:44:40 am
Rather than answer that, I shall steer the conversation in another direction...

I was woken at an unearthly 3.30 this morning and couldn't get back to sleep, so I put the telly on to have a look at some news and came across Channel 4 coverage of the World Trail Running Championships, held recently in Wales. I think it's a sign of how far my attitude towards running has changed over the last year or so that I thought it looked like rather good fun!
http://worldtrailwales2013.org/

The route was five laps of a 15km circuit, with two aid stations along the way. As regards feeding, some of the runners were picking up bottles and carrying them (at least as far as the next aid station), so I guess that answers that question. I was slightly surprised to see that some were actually stopping at the stations and having a drink before carrying on but I suppose when you're running that kind of distance, occasionally stopping for a minute or two makes sense

The winner - the appropriately named Ricky Lightfoot - finished in an astonishingly quick three and a half hours, ten minutes ahead of the chap in second place. Some French dude finished third, looking in a right state after having fallen late in the race and gashed his knee quite badly. I thought it looked like he wasn't going to be able to carry on, so chapeau to him for finishing at all, never mind on the podium.

Seeing that has made me quite excited about The Beauty & The Beast trail marathon I'm doing in September.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: JJ on August 07, 2013, 11:40:13 am
<snip> 
thought it looked like rather good fun!
<snip>
quite excited about The Beauty & The Beast trail marathon I'm doing in September.

Oh dear, oh dear!  ::-)
You're a lost cause!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Greenbank on August 07, 2013, 12:07:28 pm
Hmm.

5 laps of a 15km circuit = 75km

Winner did it in 3 and a half hours?

Are you sure? That's sub 2h marathon pace.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 07, 2013, 12:09:31 pm
Oops! I meant about five and a half hours.

Which is still bloody quick, especially over that terrain.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on August 11, 2013, 09:40:04 pm
So, I've acquired a Forerunner and one of the things I understand you can do with it is to upload a training plan. Given that last time I ran, I probably increased the distance fairly quickly and ended up with a heel fracture I'd like to proceed cautiously.

Any recommendations for sources of training plans? I suppose the goal is more to improve fitness than to achieve any particular distance or time. I don't have a HRM strap but I suppose I could get one if it helped. I'm registered on Garmin Connect and all that.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on August 12, 2013, 09:08:06 am
You do not need a Garmin to avoid over-ambitious increases in distance.

(That's not answering your question, sorry - but there are loads of training plans on the web. If you look at a couple you'll see they're pretty similar in the main, just the details change. You can't go TOO far wrong ... until you choose to ignore it  ;) )

I'd rate HRM training as miles more useful than logging your routes/distances. But people love their distance logs, online doubly so.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on August 12, 2013, 09:57:30 am
Zombies (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sixtostart.zombies5k&hl=en). It's all about the zombies.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on August 12, 2013, 10:34:36 am
You do not need a Garmin to avoid over-ambitious increases in distance.

I know, but it would be handy to make use of the vibrating alerts on the forerunner to switch from walking, change of pace, etc. I realise it's just a gadget but hopefully it'll make it more interesting and I do like to be able to see evidence of improvement, if any, on my 'puter.

Zombies (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sixtostart.zombies5k&hl=en). It's all about the zombies.

:) Thanks, looks good but I need to use this forerunner rather than my Android phone. Mind you, initial playing about seems to indicate that the phone gets a sat fix faster than the Forerunner, but hopefully that will improve when I actually leave the house.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on August 16, 2013, 06:26:55 pm
I've just been there! Started a job just down the road today - I'd completely forgotten about the event ("it's in August sometime ... I think") until I passed the yellow signs.

Very low key event. There were quite possibly more runners than supporters. I still have no interest in running round in such short circles for any period. The practical advantages did become obvious though - you're never more than a few minutes from a feed station, you can order food from your helper and collect it from them just 400m later. And it's easy to get to race control, hear announcements, etc etc. Hardy any marshals required!

Most 'runners' on Day5 were making those on Hour5 look positively frisky. I didn't get as excited as Oranj watching (and certainly didn't last an hour  ;D ), but it was intristin; I chatted to a lonely WAG who showed me round and pointed out the leaders and a few other notables.

May pop over for the finish. (I cannot deny wanting to see how tired they will look ..)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on August 18, 2013, 05:21:42 pm
First run in yonks this afternoon.
Did NHS Couch to 5K programme, week 6 run 3, so 5 min warm up, 25 mins run, 5 mins cool down.
Didn't feel to difficult, and somewhat enjoyable!   :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on August 19, 2013, 11:47:57 am
Just done my longest ever run - 21.7km. Yay!

And according to my gps track, I clocked the half marathon in 1hr 58m, which I'm very pleased with - especially as it was in the woods, ie offroad trails.
http://www.endomondo.com/workouts/232852087/5065481
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fungus on August 24, 2013, 05:12:12 pm
Just done my 1st run in about 10yrs  :)

3.96miles in 30.17mins @7.39min/mile.

Mile 1 6.46mins - going well
Mile 2 7.18mins - slowing down
Mile 3 7.51mins - seizing up
Mile 4 8.45mins - hobbling

That's the hard part done, now to recover & get back out on Wednesday which will be my 1st opportunity to run again. 

Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fungus on August 28, 2013, 08:26:04 pm
2nd run: just a short bash down to the marina & back.

2.01miles in 13.05mins @6.31min/mile.

Mile 1 6.36mins - going well
Mile 2 6.24mins - pushing hard

My legs & achilles are still a little tight  :(. So I'll try another long & steady run on Saturday. 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gus on August 29, 2013, 08:52:16 am
I needed a new goal after I didn't go to the LEL so I've signed up for 1/2 marathon Oct.20.
I have now been out 5 times over the last 2 weeks. Distances are still 4-8 km but slowly going to increase.
The tempo range from 5.15min/km up to 6.30min/km, hoping to run around 6.05min/km for the 1/2 marathon.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fungus on August 29, 2013, 12:41:24 pm
Which half have you signed up for Gus  ???
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Gus on August 29, 2013, 06:13:44 pm
Which half have you signed up for Gus  ???
THe first 21,1  :o
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on September 08, 2013, 10:08:26 pm
had the most enjoyable parkrun yesterday after four months break - the first edition at southwark park!
"Southwark results for event #1. Your time was 19:02. Congratulations on completing your 11th parkrun and your 1st at Southwark today. You finished in 12th place and were the 12th gent out of a field of 150 parkrunners and you came 5th in your age category SM30-34. As this is your first run at this event we have set your PB."
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 10, 2013, 12:58:55 pm
had the most enjoyable parkrun yesterday after four months break - the first edition at southwark park!
"Southwark results for event #1. Your time was 19:02. Congratulations on completing your 11th parkrun and your 1st at Southwark today. You finished in 12th place and were the 12th gent out of a field of 150 parkrunners and you came 5th in your age category SM30-34. As this is your first run at this event we have set your PB."

Nice one! Southwark Park is where I usually head to on my lunchtime runs - there and back with a loop of the park. It's pretty darn flat, but that's an impressive time none the less.

I did the first ever Weymouth Parkrun the week before last - would have been silly not to, as we were camping just up the coast near Bridport. I also got in a few runs along the stretch of coast by the campsite. Some tasty hills there! I did several climbs of Thorncombe Beacon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorncombe_Beacon), which has a viciously steep final 200 metres or so. I managed to knock about 40 seconds off my time going up it over the course of a week, which I was quite pleased with, though if I'd had more time to spare for running, I'd have done some longer runs further up the coast to take in Golden Cap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Cap). Already thinking of booking a return visit...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: IanN on September 15, 2013, 04:45:15 pm
I was convinced cycling did nothing for my running. Worked up to the Rough Diamond 300 in August, and only did occasional runs to keep my hand (foot?) in. I traditionally take 6 months off over the winter...

Just got a PB - a shade under 1:54 -  in the Bristol half marathon   ;D

Must be the cake! Glycogen and all that.

(Whether my legs will work enough to attempt the Chepstow 200 next weekend is another matter)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 27, 2013, 11:26:52 am
It was the Beauty & The Beast last weekend. The full marathon was six laps of a 7km course through West Wycombe Park, just outside High Wycombe. Here's the route on Strava:
http://www.strava.com/segments/5563291

I didn't run the full marathon myself - entered as a team of three, so I ran the first and fourth laps. Really lovely event - not too big (only 400-and-something runners in total), beautiful setting, perfect weather (not too warm or cold, a brief spell of light rain), nicely varied route with some fairly tough hills but nothing too obscene. One small surprise in the shape of a ford!

My first lap was 37 minutes. I went off far too quickly so struggled a bit in the latter stages. For my second lap, I made a conscious effort to set off at a more moderate pace, but that turned out to be the wrong policy because I didn't manage to run any quicker over the latter stages of the lap and ended up two minutes slower than my first lap. Pah!

Our team did OK, finishing in 3hrs 55mins. We might have been quicker but one of my team-mates was carrying a leg injury that had prevented him training and slowed him down quite badly on the day. Still, very happy with that, and we finished 9th overall out of 116 finishers (including all teams and solo runners - we were only beaten by two solo runners!).

A full marathon is one of my targets for next year. I didn't even bother trying for London - an event that big doesn't appeal, tbh. Brighton is also out - standard entries already oversubscribed and I have no interest in running for charity.

Can anyone recommend any other good marathons, preferably in the southeast? Niceness of route trumps all other considerations. Bearing that last stipulation in mind, I'm actually thinking of entering the B&B again and doing the full marathon solo, though I'm slightly wary of doing such a tough event as my first full marathon. But hey, maybe by next September, it won't be my first... I'll definitely do at least the half marathon.

Oh, and I think the training for the B&B must have done my general running some good because I went out for a 10k yesterday lunchtime and managed 45.23, which is actually my second best time over the distance ever - and that's in spite of the route being very busy in places, and having to slow down to cross a busy road.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on September 27, 2013, 12:19:35 pm
Ooh, think I've found one...
http://www.hermesrunning.com/
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on October 18, 2013, 06:46:36 am
Went to a free talk last night at my local club, by a lady from Run3D (who are based at "the 4 minute mile" track!)."Injury Prevention for runners".

It was pretty short, so was mainly about concepts and a few common weaknesses-and fixes. But she had some great easy-to-understand graphics (no pie charts, sadly)

Most controversial statement: there is little or no evidence to support the use of foam-rollers on IT bands  :o


(Meanwhile, I resisted pointing out that I've been out injured for 5 months, yet have only missed a week off the bike ever, and that after 1400km-in-5-days.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on October 18, 2013, 08:30:22 am
Most controversial statement: there is little or no evidence to support the use of foam-rollers on IT bands  :o
:o
And yet it's recommended by physios and osteopaths all over?

In other news: No1Daughter & I are doing our first parkrun this weekend. OMG, that's tomorrow. Yikes.
We fully expect to finish pretty much last, around the 40-45 minute mark. (I'm far too fat to run 5k without a heart attack, and No1Daughter <spit> smokes <spit>, so it'll be walk-run-walk-run for us). We're viewing it as a base line assessment, where the only way is, to quote Yazz, up.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on October 18, 2013, 10:05:46 am
In other news: No1Daughter & I are doing our first parkrun this weekend. OMG, that's tomorrow. Yikes.

Good luck! The good thing about Parkrun is that there's no pressure to perform, but there's lots of support and encouragement, so hopefully that will make it less of an ordeal.


(Meanwhile, I resisted pointing out that I've been out injured for 5 months, yet have only missed a week off the bike ever, and that after 1400km-in-5-days.)


I've not run at all for two weeks - giving my legs a rest. Recently, I've been waking up with severe calf stiffness in my left leg, and first thing in the morning it's painful even walking down stairs, though it seems to wear off as the day progresses. I'm pretty sure this is running related. I've been doing a lot more in the way of post-run stretches and warm-downs lately but it's having limited effect. I think I need to go for another massage.

Ironically, although my running has exacerbated my calf problems, I think it's actually a recurrence of an old injury that I picked up on the Beast From The East 600 two and a half years ago - buggered my left achilles and could barely walk at all for a couple of weeks after that. But yes, on the whole, I don't get nearly so many physical side effects from cycling as I do from running. Running really does punish the body.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on October 19, 2013, 11:13:13 am
Bugger. No1Daughter DNF (late night, new tattoo, grass is harder work than pavements, sore feet, generally feeling crappy) so pulled out after the first lap, but I wasn't last (goal #1 achieved) & unfortunately managed 39:59 so can't aim for "sub 40" next time. :facepalm: I walked much more on the first lap than I would have done solo- giving me a massive negative split. I reckon I should be at least 5 minutes faster next time (in 3 weeks).
How soon should I expect to be able to run it all? I'm only 3 weeks into "running" with any regularity, so would another 3 weeks have me running the lot?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Peter on October 19, 2013, 11:22:02 am
L, I wouldn't be in any hurry.  If you are not running much in between times, then I should just aim at getting round.  If you try too hard to run it all you are asking for knee and lower back problems.  It might just be that you run it all the very next time (and that's fine) but I think it would be wisest just to let it happen when it happens, which it is bound to do providing you don't get injured!  Sorry if I sound a bit wary but I wanted to return to running myself a couple of years ago.  After a scan on a knee (arthritic thanks to rugby injury and operation as youth) I was told not to run at all, which was a blow.  Thank heavens for cycling!

Good luck!

peter
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on October 19, 2013, 03:36:41 pm
I'm "running" 3 times a week, it's just I have stuff the next couple of weekends so won't be home for the Parkrun.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on November 02, 2013, 10:52:27 am
set my new personal worst on the parkrun today! all-you-can-eat curry dinner followed by two pints of beer the night before and going to bed at 3am had nothing to do with that, no. :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on November 09, 2013, 01:55:18 pm
managed 39:59 so can't aim for "sub 40" next time. :facepalm:
I reckon I should be at least 5 minutes faster next time (in 3 weeks).
34:58. :D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on November 11, 2013, 12:26:11 pm
Good work, fboab. You'll be sub-30 before you know it!  :thumbsup:

I've completely lost my running mojo and struggled badly at parkrun this week. I went off at 22 min pace as planned but ran out of steam very quickly and struggled in the middle 3km. I managed to find a bit of juice in the reserve tank for a sprint finish but came in just over 24 mins. Still a respectable time, obviously, but it's a little disheartening that after getting closer and closer over several months to my long-term goal of a sub-20, that target is now receding into the distance.

The calf is still a little tender, but I don't think that's the cause of my difficulties - I think I'm just a bit out of shape generally. I've not been cycling much lately either, which I'm sure isn't helping.

A few new parkruns have started in Kent recently so I'm hoping to rediscover my mojo by trying some of them out - a change being as good as a rest, and all that. Plus they're all about 20-35 miles away, a good distance for riding to the start, so a good excuse to get some cycling in - two birds with one stone, and all that.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on November 11, 2013, 12:50:38 pm
I reckon I should gain a minute each time I do it, now. (I still can't run the whole way) I was even wondering about taking a pair of trainers to the AUKAGM next weekend to do the York one, but Chris gave me a look.

Runners are much more injury prone than cyclists, though. I've never been to a cycling event where the pre ride pep talk included "and when you're injured, don't forget you can still be involved as a volunteer".

As far as the actual cross-training benefit is concerned, I've heard of people running off their cycling fitness (in fact, I think trio25 said this the first time we met her) and I can safely say that just couldn't happen here- presumably because of the excess lard. Instead I seem to be getting a huge aerobic fitness boost from panting around the streets at night, which is grand, as that was/is kind of the point.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on November 11, 2013, 04:14:31 pm
Runners are much more injury prone than cyclists, though. I've never been to a cycling event where the pre ride pep talk included "and when you're injured, don't forget you can still be involved as a volunteer".

;D

This seems be fairly well accepted, but some still disagree. Your quote is the best succinct evidence I have seen, must remember that  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Ewan Houzami on November 11, 2013, 05:08:27 pm
I seem to be one of those who gets reasonably fit by running (not far) which transfers to riding my bike, especially being able to go up various grades of incline reasonably quickly without having to go into the red. The opposite doesn't hold.

Having stopped pretty much any form of exercise a couple of months ago due to stomach upsets and existential issues (dysthymia/depression), I started hobbling around my local circuit (i.e., the cemetery) much slower than I had before. After just three weeks I can finally do 5k - a distance which seems to have eluded me for a couple of years as I'd generally go too fast and my calves would seize up - without feeling remotely knackered. This makes me most happy. I really enjoy going for a run as it gives me a different (and perhaps more primitive) feeling of 'freedom' than cycling.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Glover Fan on November 13, 2013, 09:50:16 pm
I have been an "on and off runner" for the past few years. All things considered, I am a better runner than a cyclist. However my right knee would rather I didn't run.

I hadn't run for over 6 months and a couple of weeks ago I did my local parkrun and did a 5k in 24:50. Last night I did 5k in 23:19.

My Parkrun "PB" is 22:09, provided my knee plays ball and I am intended to get into running gradually again then I would like to be able to run a sub 20 minute 5k come the end of the Winter.

As for effects on my cycling, I find I lose my "strength" as in it seems my muscles lean out and my legs really do get very lean. However this is tempered with weightloss and better top end, so my hill climbing is massively improved.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Henry on November 16, 2013, 04:25:38 pm
Went for my first run for many years this morning. 2 gentle laps of the local park equalling about 2 miles, quite enjoyed it. Might do a bit more through the winter, been meaning to do some form of cross-training for a while now.

I figure that I should build it up gradually, and pay attention to stretching well afterwards. Taking these precautions into account, how much do proper running shoes make a difference to comfort would people say? I don't have any, just used the nearest thing I have, those Merrell trainer/light walking shoes with the vibram soles. Any recommendations? Mind you I guess the right shoe is as personal as the right bike. Or perhaps not important at all, considering those who do ultra-marathons barefoot...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: IanN on November 16, 2013, 04:44:01 pm
Not being a runners build, in recent years I've played it safe with running shoes with plenty of shock absorbance in the heel - and based on advice from running shop for the way I run (you run up the road / on treadmill and they watch you...) . Easyrunner at the bottom of St Michaels Hill are good - or there's one on Whiteladies road - MOTI? Try to get the manager not the saturday staff...

No doubt someone else will say this is all rubbish - but it has worked for me.

As you say - build up. I have recently learned the error of having plenty of cycling fitness and little conditioning for impact.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on November 16, 2013, 05:41:08 pm
Before you do lots of miles it is well worth getting 'proper' shoes. If you are a "natural" heel-striker, cushioning is a good thing. But IMO you should give serious attention to the forefoot/heel landing technique debate before spending money on cushioned shoes.

There's been discussion upthread, but Search is broken, and it's covered  in more depth in "specialist" fora! (perhaps the key thing is that running with massive heel cushioning FORCES you to heel-strike - pretty much - so shoe choice is important).


Mind you, I've been out for 5 months from an injury caused by 10min barefoot, so ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Henry on November 16, 2013, 07:59:55 pm
Thankyou guys yes I am hearing this, as much as I'd like to make do with what I have, or get some 2nd-hand Aldi running shoes, I should probably invest in something with a proper fit.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: αdαmsκι on November 23, 2013, 11:51:24 am
About the most stressful few days at work imaginable; limited sleep; & post-stress recover sessions on Thursday & Friday night in a local tavern helped to give me my parkrun PB this morning :thumbsup:.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: JennyB on November 23, 2013, 12:07:36 pm
About the most stressful few days at work imaginable; limited sleep; & post-stress recover sessions on Thursday & Friday night in a local tavern helped to give me my parkrun PB this morning :thumbsup:.

I read that as "my parkrun PBP"  :o
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on November 23, 2013, 02:16:26 pm
In contrast, running out of blood & iron means this morning I could barely run at all, and gave up.

It's like the last 6 weeks never happened.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Glover Fan on November 23, 2013, 05:06:24 pm
Thankyou guys yes I am hearing this, as much as I'd like to make do with what I have, or get some 2nd-hand Aldi running shoes, I should probably invest in something with a proper fit.
Definitely. Some people scoff at the suggestion of proper running shoes, but proper expensive ones actually stopped my ankle hurting compared to the off the shelf Asics I bought at the now defunct JJB Sports. So there is merit to it. Besides once you have taken up cycling, what is £100 on a pair of shoes???

I went to Easyrunner in Bristol, very helpful and gave myself and my wife a discount on two pairs of shoes.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on November 25, 2013, 11:11:17 am
Price isn't everything though - they need to be the right shoes, which aren't necessarily the most expensive.

I'm beginning to wonder if my expensive* trail shoes aren't actually the cause of my recent leg injuries, since the problems only seem to have started since I started running in them...

*RRP £110, though I didn't actually pay for them, hence I didn't actually have a choice in which shoes I got. If I were paying that much of my own money on running shoes, I would go to a proper running shop for decent advice and proper fitting. This is the process I went through to buy my other trail shoes, which cost £70, and I've never had a problem with them. It would be churlish to complain about getting a £110 pair of running shoes for free but if they're causing me injury, that makes them essentially worthless to me.

It's also possible that it's not so much the shoes that are causing me injury as the way I'm using them - largely on mixed surfaces, some trail, some paved. These are full-on trail shoes, with deep tread - very stable off-road but possibly not ideal on-road. My other shoes are perhaps just more suitable for the kind of mixed terrain running I do.

I really ought to get some proper road-running shoes as well.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: αdαmsκι on November 30, 2013, 11:23:49 am
Another Parkrun PB this morning. I now need a new goal now I'm sub 19 minutes :D.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on November 30, 2013, 11:28:25 am
Lol, I'm still chuffed that I don't get lapped.
New pb - 32:41.
 I was faster at York but that's completely flat, and tarmac, whereas we have mud and hills. It's surely going to be almost impossible to stay upright by March, we'll be calling it Bury Mud Madness.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on November 30, 2013, 11:50:51 am
well done both!! i've got second worst time today (at least it's not pw!). still trying to find the reason why i'm lagging by 1min on my usual time.
went to the gym afterwards for a stepper session and stretches.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: αdαmsκι on November 30, 2013, 11:55:44 am
Lol, I'm still chuffed that I don't get lapped.
New pb - 32:41.

PB, be happy :thumbsup:.


well done both!! i've got second worst time today (at least it's not pw!). still trying to find the reason why i'm lagging by 1min on my usual time.

How exposed is your ParkRun route? There was a decent wind blowing in East London today, so could that have had an impact?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on November 30, 2013, 02:52:05 pm
How exposed is your ParkRun route? There was a decent wind blowing in East London today, so could that have had an impact?

not too exposed (southwark park) and there have been windier events before. i blame the lack of cycling in the last couple of months, hey-ho :)
you run just a bit quicker than i - could make an perfect pace-setter!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on November 30, 2013, 03:23:11 pm
23.01 for me today. Definitely not a PB.

The chances of me ever going sub 20 are looking increasingly slim.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on November 30, 2013, 03:29:06 pm
Another Parkrun PB this morning. I now need a new goal now I'm sub 19 minutes :D.
Well fboab is doing a harder workout than you. How about aiming for something that takes 32+mins?
 :P

(there are traces of sense in that comment. Somewhere ... )



This morning's ride went thru Wallingford - "Caution Runners" signs. only saw 1 chap - walking and eating. I wasn't surprised when he said he was doing 100 miles  :thumbsup:
(Moral: there's always someone doing something harder/longer/cooler than you.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: αdαmsκι on November 30, 2013, 05:06:51 pm
Well fboab is doing a harder workout than you. How about aiming for something that takes 32+mins?

Nah. I don't like the pain, so find it's better to get it over with as quickly as possible ;)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on November 30, 2013, 10:04:48 pm
More than once, I've finished around the same time as a mum running with her 6 year old. I comfort myself with the knowledge that I'm probably carrying the equivalent of a six year old in excess lard.
So maybe you fast boys need to do it marine corps stylee with stupidly heavy packs?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: αdαmsκι on November 30, 2013, 11:20:17 pm
So maybe you fast boys need to do it marine corps stylee with stupidly heavy packs?

It's funny you should say that because that came up in conversation earlier today while I was lugging 24 kg of stuff back from Asda....
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on December 01, 2013, 07:35:56 am
Hop?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: jacdaw on December 02, 2013, 05:16:31 pm

This morning's ride went thru Wallingford - "Caution Runners" signs. only saw 1 chap - walking and eating. I wasn't surprised when he said he was doing 100 miles  :thumbsup:
(Moral: there's always someone doing something harder/longer/cooler than you.)

Centurion Winter 100?

http://www.centurionrunning.com/winter-100-2013/w100-2013-infopack/
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on December 02, 2013, 05:23:29 pm
That'll be it. There were a couple of Centurion t-shirts on display.
I've since read that they were running the 2nd "piece of string" event in parallel. I may have posted about it here last year. They had MUCH better conditions this year, almost perfect (apart from a little cold overnight). The 2012 PofS entrants waded 30 miles along flooded river-banks.
There was some #pieceofstring stuff on twitter, but no detailed reports (as of last night anyway).

EDIT: 'ere ya go:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/matt-butler-the-national-treasure-his-soiled-shorts-and-the-shaven-fairy-8976264.html?origin=internalSearch
Quote
Speaking of profile, a race which flew under almost everyone’s radars, the second annual Piece of String run, took place over the weekend. It is, as the name implies, a race where the participants start not knowing how far they have to run to the finish. It wasn’t on TV or radio (perish the thought) but was easy to follow via Twitter.

It started somewhere in Berkshire on Friday morning and ended almost 130 miles later on Saturday night, with Terrence Zengerink and Ben Hall the joint winners. As crazy as the Piece of String sounds, to some it represents the ideal test of the mental side of endurance sport. None of the runners have any public profile whatsoever, but there is no doubting the size of their hearts.

And this is entertaining:
http://www.centurionrunning.com/piece-of-string-fun-run/piece-of-string-2013-misery-pics/
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on December 10, 2013, 12:28:27 pm
Anyone get paresthesia while running? I had a painful attack in my left foot while out yesterday lunchtime. Weird. I was wearing the same shoes as usual, which have elastic laces so it's not like I'd done them up too tight.

Anyway, I bought some new running socks this morning, long ones with calf support, which may or may not make a difference. We shall see. If it recurs, I shall go to the doctor.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on December 13, 2013, 09:07:54 am
Link in today's parkrun email to Jantastic (http://www.jantastic.me/)
It's a challenge to help motivate you to consistency. I'll enter, as I like that kind of thing, and it'll take me to the end of March which is when the cycling ramps up and the running will recede.

Apparently you can enter as a team.
Anyone interested?

(The 'prize' is entry to the London Marathon 2015. I'm sure I don't need to tell you I'll be passing on that, in the unlikely event I get pulled out of the hat)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on December 20, 2013, 07:00:41 am
Number-swappers to be disqualified under new UKA rules
http://www.athleticsweekly.com/news/new-uka-rules/

Quote
Under the new rules, which come into operation on April 1 2014, athletes who run in transferred numbers in UKA-licensed road races without permission are to be disqualified. Both they and those who pass on the number will be subject to disciplinary action via the appropriate national organisation.

Many road races make arrangements for legal transfers of entries for those who wish to withdraw from the event and those seeking late entry, but unauthorised number-swapping is common and the bane of many organisers

Probably never enforced much below elite level, but interesting.

I've entered 2 road races - sold the place for one!  :-[  (I was injured, and it was feckin expensive. Your Honour.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: geraldc on December 20, 2013, 11:04:00 am
Entered the Reading half marathon, to keep a mate who's doing the London marathon company. I guess I'll have to start jogging again.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on December 20, 2013, 11:31:32 am
Link in today's parkrun email to Jantastic (http://www.jantastic.me/)
It's a challenge to help motivate you to consistency. I'll enter, as I like that kind of thing, and it'll take me to the end of March which is when the cycling ramps up and the running will recede.

Apparently you can enter as a team.
Anyone interested?

I wasn't sure about this at first, but I reckon it could be good extra motivation in the cold months ahead, so yeah, why not? Have you set up a team?
 
Quote
(The 'prize' is entry to the London Marathon 2015. I'm sure I don't need to tell you I'll be passing on that, in the unlikely event I get pulled out of the hat)

This could be one of the main motivating factors for me. I'll probably never do the London Marathon unless I win entry via something like this. I've already missed out on the Parkrun "Chase the Place" option.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on December 20, 2013, 05:18:38 pm
Surely entering The Ballot would give you a better shot?  ??? [IANA expert on the London Marathon!]
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on December 20, 2013, 05:25:29 pm
Surely entering The Ballot would give you a better shot?  ??? [IANA expert on the London Marathon!]

I'm not entirely sure that it is, tbh, given how few places are available to the ballot and how many people enter it. Plus you have to pay up front, which I have issues with.

I'm not that fussed about the London Marathon anyway - there are other nicer marathons - but I wouldn't turn down a free place.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: geraldc on December 20, 2013, 05:41:44 pm
Join your local running club, they nearly always have places, and will train you to get round in reasonable time*

*This is according to my neighbour who only told me after I'd got through the ballot done the bloody thing
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: zigzag on December 20, 2013, 09:24:41 pm
fwiw regarding london marathon ballot entries, i was unsuccessful four times, then successful two years in a row, then didn't get a place in 2012 and this year missed the entry date :facepalm: ;D
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on December 21, 2013, 03:19:17 pm
I wasn't sure about this at first, but I reckon it could be good extra motivation in the cold months ahead, so yeah, why not? Have you set up a team?

We need 6 in to score. Can I have 5 further volunteers? Team is yacf.

(I've persuaded both my sisters to sign up. We'll be comparing & contrasting fat bird running in Suffolk, with thin lady running in Sydney, Australia, and thin woman running in Auckland NZ. Little sister's already told me she can only run at night as it's too hot in the daytime. Bless.)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on December 21, 2013, 03:59:36 pm
I'd love to help - I suspect my 3mins once-a-month won't quite qualify, sorry.

(I followed jantastic last year, but had a few minor niggles then so didn't want to commit to too much. Had it started in Feb/March it would have been perfect!)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on December 27, 2013, 03:55:15 pm
Just been down to the Running Outlet in Canterbury to blow my Christmas cash on some new shoes.

Ended up with a pair of Asics Gel-Volt 33. Very comfortable. Can't wait to get out and try them.

Could probably have bought cheaper online but the chap in the shop took time to give me a proper gait analysis, which he talked me through, showing me the video on his computer, and helped me choose a suitable pair (ie didn't just steer me towards the most expensive), so I feel like I've got really good value.

Apparently, my gait is almost perfectly neutral, which is pleasing. I asked if the cycling is likely to be an influence on running style and he thought very likely. Interesting.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on December 31, 2013, 06:05:52 pm
I'm in now. I've set my target as three runs per week. Kind of wondering if I should give myself a harder target but I've got a few more days to make up my mind.

Finished off 2013 with a nice gentle 10-miler earlier today, and I'll be starting tomorrow as I hope to go on in 2014 - with a duathlon! Getting up for the Whitstable parkrun at 9am, then cycling the 29km to Margate for their parkrun at 10.30am. I'll be cutting it fine but I reckon it's doable - especially if the wind stays a southwesterly...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on December 31, 2013, 07:28:59 pm
I did my duathlon today- ran up a gert big hill (only 4km but 250m climbing) then went for a ride.

Three runs a week is all I'm willing to commit to- I'd rather manage that consistently for the 3 months than aim higher and fail. By the time I'm at the gym for 3 sessions and riding to work as well as a long ride at the weekend I reckon that's plenty.
I'm really starting to enjoy it, now. It's a great feeling of freedom, more than I get on a bike at the moment. Maybe not more, maybe just different.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Swarm_Catcher on January 01, 2014, 02:01:10 pm
We need 6 in to score. Can I have 5 further volunteers? Team is yacf

I have joined, and although I'm not exactly sure how motivational it'll be, I've committed myself to 5 runs a week. Just you and me in the team at the moment, fboab.
I've joined - just the motivation I need.  Target is 3 runs a week.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on January 01, 2014, 02:58:06 pm

Three runs a week is all I'm willing to commit to- I'd rather manage that consistently for the 3 months than aim higher and fail.

That's what I'm thinking too. I'd like to aim for 4 or 5 runs per week but i wouldn't realistically be able to manage it every week.

Quote
I'm really starting to enjoy it, now. It's a great feeling of freedom, more than I get on a bike at the moment. Maybe not more, maybe just different.

Same here. I've become more of a runner than a cyclist in recent months. Cycling is mostly just transport for me at the moment, while running is purely for fun. Probably not a bad thing - it's always this time of year I get into the cycling doldrums so it's nice to have something else to do to mix it up a bit.

Must do more cycling in 2014 though - I really need to do an SR with PBP 2015 in mind.

The duathlon went well. Took it easy round the first parkrun, 23.20, hammered it on the bike but was slowed down by ferocious crosswinds, taking a bit over an hour for the 29km, so arrived at parkrun 2 just as everyone was setting off, and started 2mins late but got round in 25mins according to my own timing.

Pretty pleased with that.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Pippa on January 03, 2014, 04:10:37 pm
We need 6 in to score. Can I have 5 further volunteers? Team is yacf

I have joined, and although I'm not exactly sure how motivational it'll be, I've committed myself to 5 runs a week. Just you and me in the team at the moment, fboab.
I've joined - just the motivation I need.  Target is 3 runs a week.

I've just joined as well. I need something more than my willpower alone to make me go running so hopefully this will help.....

Am also aiming for 3 runs per week. Am I right in thinking distance/speed etc doesn't matter ???
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: Swarm_Catcher on January 04, 2014, 10:49:33 am
Am also aiming for 3 runs per week. Am I right in thinking distance/speed etc doesn't matter ???

Welcome aboard  :thumbsup: . Yes, for the first bit of the challenge, speed and distance aren't important: http://www.jantastic.me/rules/ (http://www.jantastic.me/rules/), I think you can go through the whole challenge without worrying too much about that.
Welcome Pippa, it's not been a while :)

If speed were important, audaxers like me wouldn't be interested.  Distance, on the other hand ...
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on January 04, 2014, 12:15:20 pm
Out running again for the first time in ages!
Using the C25K week 4 as a training run, I ended up doing 4.6km in 35min 13 sec (including 5 min warm up / warm down at end).

Logged the run using endomondo!   :)
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on January 04, 2014, 12:25:20 pm
Well done, BrianI - getting out there at all in current conditions is an achievement in itself.

One of my aims for 2014 is to do more parkrun tourism, riding to parkruns further afield - thought about riding to Gillingham for the Great Lines parkrun today but I was far too late getting out of bed. Nearly too late for the local one too, and was so late setting off that I had to drive to get there in time. But I'm glad I made the effort rather than staying in bed, which seemed by far the more appealing option at 8am. Lousy time today though. Oh well!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on January 04, 2014, 08:40:13 pm
Am I right in thinking distance/speed etc doesn't matter ???
It better not!
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: αdαmsκι on January 05, 2014, 02:10:18 pm
Can I have 5 further volunteers? Team is yacf.

Done. 5 runs per week for me.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: BrianI on January 05, 2014, 04:36:24 pm
Well done, BrianI - getting out there at all in current conditions is an achievement in itself.


Cheers cityoen.  Think I may have overdone it yesterday, very sair legs, which didn't help my 66km bike ride today.....

Will probably be starting my new job soon, so will have less time for cycling, but hopefully more time for running!   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: swiss hat on January 05, 2014, 05:09:26 pm
Can I have 5 further volunteers? Team is yacf.

Done. 5 runs per week for me.

Me too. 6 runs/week. Aiming to build up for Steyning Stinger marathon on 2nd March. Did a 3hr/20mile run along the Grand Union canal towpath from Ealing this morning  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: mattc on January 05, 2014, 06:10:32 pm
This is cool - now when I listen to Marathon Talk I will actually know people doing Jantastic. Far more interesting than last year  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on January 08, 2014, 09:35:05 pm
Presumably Swiss Hat is saving them up to log all at once at the end of the week?
As to the "leaders", well, you're only cheating yourself. /mum voice.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on January 09, 2014, 12:15:29 pm
I haven't looked at the leaderboard. Not interested. I'm doing it for me. And the team, obviously.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: fboab on January 09, 2014, 02:37:47 pm
As the 'competition' is consistency it's all a bit bollocks at this stage, no?
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: citoyen on January 09, 2014, 02:57:05 pm
I suppose it's conceivable that some people are doing three or more runs per day. But unlikely.

I've just logged my second run for the week and rated it: "Great, I feel amazing." It was just the usual lunchtime route, and wasn't especially fast, but it went really well, considerably better than on Monday's lunchtime slog. This is encouraging.
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running
Post by: swiss hat on January 09, 2014, 06:53:36 pm
Well, the team seems to be coming along nicely, although I can't help thinking that Swiss Hat has given himself some running to do at the end of the week, with 6 to do by Sunday.

All going to plan, I've logged 2 & also run this evening. Will have short run out in local park tomorrow, long slow run on Sat and XC race on Sun. Add in the cycle commuting all week + circuits on Monday for a full week! 
Title: Re: Cross Training: Running