Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Health & Fitness => Topic started by: Chris S on January 23, 2013, 10:30:29 am

Title: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 23, 2013, 10:30:29 am
I was always a total believer in the Calories In/Calories Out concept of weight management. That was, until I listened to the audio book "Why we get fat, and what can we do about it?" by Gary Taubes.

Further reading (Messers Volek & Phinney) led me (actually boab, but I was along for the ride) to try an N=1 experiment with a Low Carb, High Fat diet; to impose a state of "Nutritional Ketosis".

I've had to suspend my previous beliefs of Calories In/Calories Out. It looks a lot like it just ain't that simple after all. I've had to accept that the First Law of Thermodynamics actually has fuck all to do with why people get fat. I've had to accept that the "research" into causal links between fats (esp Saturated) and CVD are tenuous at best, and quite possibly completely wrong, having been based on crap science.

I won't bore you with the dietary details. Suffice to say, I was eating a typical western diet, which consisted of 200g to 400g of carbohydrate a day. Now, I eat less than 40g, and most days more like 25-30g - nearly all from berries, leafy salads and veggies (above-ground varieties only).
So far so good. My weight is coming down steadily; and if the tape measure, Tanita scales and calipers are anything to go by, it's mostly fat that's coming off. My appetite is much much more controllable. I have more energy throughout the day, and after an alarming dip early on, performance on the bike (and rowing machine) is coming back.

Early days as yet, but so far so good.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 23, 2013, 10:47:17 am
'calories' is a poor way to measure the energy content of food anyway, since it takes no account of the processes and wastage in the digestive system. Nothing wrong with first law of thermodynamics, just people applying it in an overly simplistic way.

I've seen someone get very very ill on a ketosis-based diet. Going into ketosis is fine for a short period but not long-term.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 23, 2013, 10:55:15 am
I've seen someone get very very ill on a ketosis-based diet. Going into ketosis is fine for a short period but not long-term.

It's a bad idea if you are diabetic or have a history of kidney problems. Also, it's easy to over-do the protein, which can stress the kidneys. My diet is based on 1.5g/Kg LBM of protein, so about 100g a day. A properly formulated low-carb, high-fat diet is pretty benign, and nutritious. It's meat/dairy/fish + salads and veg.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on January 23, 2013, 11:09:32 am
'calories' is a poor way to measure the energy content of food anyway, since it takes no account of the processes and wastage in the digestive system. Nothing wrong with first law of thermodynamics, just people applying it in an overly simplistic way.

Absolutely!

My own reading on the subject lead me to doubt the overly simplistic 'calories in/calories out' model so prevalent in modern dietary advice. And I've been shouted down by the almost evangelistic zeal of nutritionists who have learned their subject well.

I can understand why the 'calories in/calorie out' model is offered. Like '5 a day', it's simple and easy to remember advice. And, in a very broad sense, it's correct - obviously. If you don't eat you will loose weight. That bit's "not rocket science", as they say.

However, I do believe it overly simplistic and misleading. Imo, it's takes little account of the body's various bio-feedbacks that are constantly ebbing and flowing, micro-tuning our needs. Our body's digestive processes are not like a simple furnace and certainly not a closed system.

I'd go further; I think the notion of calorie, when applied to nutrition, is pretty much an irrelevance. That is to say, I don't think we should be concerned with the calorific value of food. Consider - everything has a calorific value (a gallon of petrol, a length of wood) but that doesn't mean it all has the same calorific value to us, there's clearly something else at play.

Sorry, a bit of sidetrack from ketogenic diets! Just something that interests me.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Giropaul on January 23, 2013, 11:21:27 am
I am wondering if this isn't a slightly "re-packed" version of the Atkins diet?

I used the Atkins diet succesfully some years ago. The only downside was the ketosis breath, and the ability to blow up if making any sort of real effort on the bike.

However, when I re-tried it after a couple of years it really didn't work for me. It was as if my body had "learnt/adapted" from the first time, and this time round it made me feel unwell. Interestingly. several other people I have talked to about this have had the same experience.

The problem with all these things is, of course, to maintain a lower weight. The Agriculturalists amongst us will recognise the term "compensatory growth", which in essence means that when weight has been lost against the genetic blueprint by a restricted diet, the organism becomes "super-efficient" once a fuller diet is given, until the genetic blueprint is reached.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 23, 2013, 11:41:26 am
I am wondering if this isn't a slightly "re-packed" version of the Atkins diet?

The "New Atkin's diet" - the republished book, is a branded ketogenic diet. Unlike the 70s original, it promotes moderation of protein intake, replacing lost calories with more fat, thereby tending more toward a LCHF (Low Carb, High Fat) diet.

As for why it's harder next time around: Clicky (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/why-is-low-carb-harder-the-second-time-around/)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: clarion on January 23, 2013, 01:31:49 pm
Calories in/out is a simplification, but not a very inaccurate one.

It works for the vast majority of people that if they reduce the calories they are eating and/or do some sort of regular exercise, they lose weight.

There are a very few people for whom this doesn't work, for whatever reason, and it seems sensible to try alternative methods.

However, the risks associated with Atkins are pretty well known.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 23, 2013, 01:52:11 pm
However, the risks associated with Atkins are pretty well known.

Do you have any links to actual research done on this? I'm genuinely interested. What "risks"?

I've read some anecdotes about people who died of ketoacidosis because they didn't know they were diabetic when embarking on Atkins. As I mentioned - there are issues for diabetics. They also have issues eating a lot of sugar  ;).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: clarion on January 23, 2013, 02:00:37 pm
The issues for diabetics, and the increased risk of bowel cancer are the ones which spring to mind.

Then there's the bad breath and body odour ;D

Don't have any links available for you, as it's not a very current issue in healthcare, the Atkins fad having passed after his death.  However, there is a decent summary in Wikipedia, albeit heavily edited by those in favour of the diet.

The NHS only works in conjunction with Weight Watchers that I am aware of, since that's the only programme with a decent evidence base.

I suspect that the diet you are
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 23, 2013, 02:44:45 pm
I suspect that the diet you are

(waits)...  :)

Not wishing to put words in your hands, but as you may be about to refer to, I'm not following an Atkins diet. Yes, it's low carb, as is Atkins, but so are a lot of other ways of eating. The plan I'm following places some of the emphasis on moderating protein so as to inhibit gluconeogenesis, and most energy comes from dietary fat.





Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: clarion on January 23, 2013, 02:50:00 pm
Whoops, yes.  I was distracted by work.  I know. ::-)

I was just saying that I expected that, with the amount of effort you've put in looking into this, that your diet isn't anything as rubbish as Atkins or Dukan, and is more balanced.

I still think that this sort of diet should only be tried (except in cases of moderating epilepsy) by those who have tried calorie counting and exercise, with no success (as I know is true in this case).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on January 23, 2013, 08:56:17 pm
I know a few people who have had amazing results on a Atkins style diet.
I've had moderate success on a low(er) carb diet, but I found it hard to adhere too.
It did however highlight how addicted most of us are to grains/sugar.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: andygates on January 26, 2013, 07:14:53 pm
Definitions needed: there's a world of difference between something that's good, safe and effective for a limited period at changing your body to your goal, and something that you do for life.

I know nobody who keto's for life, so timescales and parameters are important please!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 26, 2013, 08:09:31 pm
If this works for me I'll be on it for life.

The theory is that rather than being fuelled by a carbohydrate>glucose>insulin path you're fuelled by fat>ketones.

I'm not a mouse but : Clicky (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.short).

I came across this book Why we get fat (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Get-Fat-about/dp/0307949435) (available here (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55711735/gary-taubes-2010-why-we-get-fat-and-what-to-do-about-it-ebook.pdf) if you have no morals) and the author makes a claim that stands things on their head.

We don't get fat because we overeat, we overeat because we're fat.

I've spent an awful lot of time counting calories, and attempting to eat healthy low fat food. I ride thousands of kms every year. And I'm fat. I'm so obese I'd get free gym membership from my GP if I lived in Stowmarket. I have no other 'bad health' markers, I have ridiculously low blood pressure, a RHR under 50 and have the 'right' waist-hip ratio.
I religiously counted in and out and it didn't work- reducing my calorie consumption makes very little difference to my weight, it makes me feel grumpy and deprived and living on a net 1200kcal I lose less than 300g a week. How much are you supposed to exercise? 90 minutes a day wasn't enough. And yes, I did do (girly light) weights.

We know that hormones regulate most things. Turns out appetite is one of those. Endocrinologists know this- thyroid isn't the only metabolic regulator.

How about this: when you eat carbohydrates your body produces insulin which stores glucose as fat. And you keep feeding yourself carbs, and you keep producing fat. and it never gets used because you ride for hours, and you keep feeding yourself carbs, otherwise you bonk. So you use all the 'loose' glucose, all the glucose from your liver, and you never break into those stores, you stay fat.

When you reduce those carbs your body has to do something else. So you starve the glucose out, and you start to make ketones instead. Instead of having 2000 calories of glucose swilling around, you have 40,000 calories of fat. I probably have even more than that. And you can use it now, you don't bonk, you have a continuous slow burn of fats turned into ketones that run you.

There's a world of science to back up this theory, there's races of hunter-gatherers who never ate carbs and lived just fine on fat, and (god help us) there're dozens of Americans blogging about it. One thing we do know for sure is: when you stop, all the lost weight comes back. So if this works for me, I'll be on it for ever.

It's not easy. But I'm an all-or-nothing kind of gal and 'don't eat carbs' is easier for me than moderation in all things.
I don't miss cake. I don't miss bread, or rice, or pasta. I miss fruit, and vegetables. (I am eating veg before you all go shouting 'SCURVY!1' at me, but salad, spinach and brassicas are no substitute for carrots and swede and sweet potato, and do you know how many carbohydrates there are in tomatoes? hmm?).
It's early days. Ask me again in 6 months, and I might well say 'it was bollocks, didn't work'. But I might be 15kg lighter on a diet of cheese & spinach omelettes for tea and double cream for breakfast, and become a real evangelist.


I appear to have written an essay. Sorry. Have some footnotes:


1Apparently a diet low in carb, high in fat, and with moderate protein has a much lower requirement for vitamin C. Inuits ate nothing but pemmican (mashed meat & fat) for months and didn't get scurvy. You only need the vitamin C when you have all those carbs to deal with. Apparently.

References: Taubes (http://www.dietdoctor.com/why-we-get-fat-interview-with-gary-taubes), Attia (http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-i?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-i), Volek & Phinney (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Science-Low-Carbohydrate-Performance/dp/0983490716), Lustig (http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/02/11437/societal-control-sugar-essential-ease-public-health-burden).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Glover Fan on January 27, 2013, 08:09:29 am
To make exercise work for weight loss you also need to be exercising at the right intensity. If you go out too hard you will be burning a high proportion of carbohydrate which has a finite supply, hence a bonk later on. If you go at a steady intensity you will be burning predominantly fat. BW cycles in Bristol offer a personal test that tells you the exact moment your body goes from fat burning into carb burning. It's about £100, but if I was struggling to make exercise work for me, I'd consider it.

Yesterday during a 100km Audax, I spent 26 miles of the middle section with my heart rate rarely dipping below 170bpm. My max is 185! Needless to say, I nearly bonked at the end, despite eating A LOT.

As to weird and wonderful diets, I'm yet to be converted. The only diet I have ever seen work in myself and peers has been the "Calories in versus calories out" diet, which is boring, rarely wrote about and takes a bloody long time.

Out of interest, what does this ketonogenic diet recommend for breakfast? I only ask as I have found this is a make or break for all diets. Poor or no breakfast will always make it difficult to lose weight.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 27, 2013, 08:35:30 pm
To make exercise work for weight loss you also need to be exercising at the right intensity.
Er, yeah. So a combination of easy commutes, hard cross training, turbo/intervals and a fair old wodge of audaxing doesn't contain 'the right intensity'? I'd beg to differ.

Out of interest, what does this ketonogenic diet recommend for breakfast? I only ask as I have found this is a make or break for all diets. Poor or no breakfast will always make it difficult to lose weight.
Eggs, mostly. Or bacon and eggs. You can eat whatever you like- as long as you limit the amount of carbohydrates you have, and try to keep protein consumption moderate.
So instead of macro proportions at the current 'recommended' of 60% carbohydrate, this kind of thing (http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Goodfood/Pages/eatwell-plate.aspx) you get most of your calories from fat. Yes. Fat. It's quite hard to change the habits that have been ingrained, and learn to love the lard.

Today we did our first ketogenic audax. Calorie consumption: 1400kcal. 204k, 10hr 50 (inc stops) 20+mph winds and gusts over 30mph. And most importantly: I'm not hungry.
I think I'm sold.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on January 27, 2013, 08:41:52 pm

Today we did our first ketogenic audax. Calorie consumption: 1400kcal. 204k, 10hr 50 (inc stops) 20+mph winds and gusts over 30mph. And most importantly: I'm not hungry.
I think I'm sold.

Did you feel bonked out?
I really never rode at more than 8mph on the flat if I was low on carbs.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 27, 2013, 08:47:36 pm
Did you feel bonked out?
I really never rode at more than 8mph on the flat if I was low on carbs.
Not at all helly, it was a revelation.
We stopped for lunch because we did a figure of 8 ending back at Chris's and needed to change our sodden (floodwater) socks. We stopped for coffee because I had hotfoot. 'Hunger' and 'bonking' just didn't feature.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: clarion on January 27, 2013, 09:02:15 pm
I'm really pleased that it's working for you. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 27, 2013, 09:32:42 pm
It was almost surreal. We sat in the cafe with coffee (me) and hot water (boab), and both agreed we should have been hungry. We were at 140k - usually a mardy time for me as my energy levels dip - and we just kept rolling - the energy was always there when needed.

I'm finding my "top end" is missing (Oooer Missus). So forget Zone 5 work - there is no zone 5, so hill climbing is (currently) slow and miserable.

We rode with heart rate monitors today, and I again found something that I noticed last week; a complete disconnect between my perceived rate of work, and the HRM. When it was reading >170bpm climbing, I should have been panting like a racehorse with COPD, but I just wasn't. Strange.

So - all in all, a good first long ride on low-carbs.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: rideron on January 27, 2013, 10:17:41 pm
If you want to exercise and eat low carb. Then a good reference is "The Paleoithic Diet For Athletes" by professor Loren Cordain. I think nature tends to know best, and nature tells us that there are essential fats that humans need to get from diet (9  I think) mostly the omego fats. There are also essentolial proteins we need to get from diet (12 I think) mostly b12 which can be found in complete combination in animal products. There is No Such Thing as an essential carbohydrate!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on January 28, 2013, 03:34:40 pm
There is No Such Thing as an essential carbohydrate!

I believe there is some brain function that requires a tiny amount of carb.... but I'm stupid anyway so I can live without that. Probably do already.

I bought into low carb (not no carb mind) after I started reading Dr Briffa. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 28, 2013, 04:15:15 pm
I think what rideron is trying to say is that that the animal fats and proteins can be broken down into carbs.

That's slower-release than eating carbs directly.

The eggs and bacon breakfast isn't really a practical one to grab in the office, although I guess you could boil an egg and eat it with cheese. Doesn't sound all that appetising though.

There are essential fruit and veg. Getting the bulk of energy from fats and protein is fine, but you need, really need, vitamins.

Any suggestions for vegetarians in your paleo diet books?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 28, 2013, 04:25:45 pm
My reading to date has suggested to me that about 25% of the brain's energy needs must come in the form of glucose, the other 75% can come from ketones (once adapted).

The missing 25% is provided by the liver, which converts dietary protein into glucose through gluconeogenesis.

As for breakfast, I've found a great substitute for a bowl of cereal with milk, is a bowl of berries (strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries - whatever takes your fancy, they are all tolerably low carb in small doses) and lashings of double cream.
If you're a carnivore, you can try a "German" breakfast - ham & cheese.

I can't have eggs unless cooked into something else, so I've tried low carb pancakes (yummy) and Almond rolls (basically ground almonds and egg, with a lot of Olive oil and flax seeds) with butter and Marmite.

Life is a little easier if you're happy to have small quantities of artificial sweetener. Boab made some low-carb mini-cheesecakes at the weekend (4g carb each, and a LOT of fat) which are more moreish than crack cocaine  :thumbsup:.

Another winner this weekend - Cauliflower Mash. It's more like couscous in texture, but really filling - masses of fibre, and very low carb.

ETA: mrcharly - nearly all the vitamins and minerals we need can be found in meat, so as long as your're not veggie, you shouldn't need to supplement. Veggies may need to.
One thing to watch on a LCHF diet is the amount of sodium in the diet. You need much more - because ketosis triggers the kidneys to stop retaining sodium. A couple of mugs of bouillon a day is enough. It's also worth noting that this self experimentation should only really be done with the OK of your doctor if you are diabetic, have a history of kidney disorder, or are having ongoing treatment for hypertension.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 28, 2013, 04:44:09 pm

ETA: mrcharly - nearly all the vitamins and minerals we need can be found in meat, so as long as your're not veggie, you shouldn't need to supplement. Veggies may need to.

I think the sailors who had scurvy might disagree with you.

Edit.

It seems if you eat fresh meat, particularly lots of liver, then you won't be prone to scurvy.

I remain sceptical as to the long-term health benefits of the ketogenic diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: CrinklyLion on January 28, 2013, 04:55:34 pm
Another winner this weekend - Cauliflower Mash. It's more like couscous in texture, but really filling - masses of fibre, and very low carb.

I know nowt about all that theory - but on the recipe front, someone once recommended stir fried cauli (either shredded or grated, can't remember) as a rice replacement for card avoiders.  Apparently it is delicious.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on January 28, 2013, 04:59:12 pm
My reading to date has suggested to me that about 25% of the brain's energy needs must come in the form of glucose, the other 75% can come from ketones (once adapted). The missing 25% is provided by the liver, which converts dietary protein into glucose through gluconeogenesis.

Thanks for the detail, I knew it were summat like that.

Quote
Another winner this weekend - Cauliflower Mash. It's more like couscous in texture, but really filling - masses of fibre, and very low carb.

Agreed. It's a regular in this household. Used as a rice substitute, it works well with chilli sin carni, veg curries, etc.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Pippa on January 28, 2013, 04:59:57 pm
It is interesting to hear how different people get on with the low carb approach. I've tried it a couple of times and both times lost weight but felt absolutely awful - dizzy and run down and generally a bit crap. My dad OTOH gets on with it really well and has stuck to it for protracted periods of time (until he is tempted away by a roast potato). Anyway, there was an article in the guardian today  exploring the use of lab fitness tests to determine what sport you are most suited to (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/jan/28/got-what-it-takes-olympic-athlete). The following comment caught my eye:

Quote
I also turn out to be a carb burner rather than a fat burner, which I'm taking as licence to eat more toast.

I wonder if this might explain why for example I don't get on very well with low carb but my dad does.....? Unfortunately the article didn't seem to expand on the concept....
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 28, 2013, 05:13:04 pm
It is interesting to hear how different people get on with the low carb approach. I've tried it a couple of times and both times lost weight but felt absolutely awful - dizzy and run down and generally a bit crap. My dad OTOH gets on with it really well and has stuck to it for protracted periods of time (until he is tempted away by a roast potato). Anyway, there was an article in the guardian today  exploring the use of lab fitness tests to determine what sport you are most suited to (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/jan/28/got-what-it-takes-olympic-athlete). The following comment caught my eye:

Quote
I also turn out to be a carb burner rather than a fat burner, which I'm taking as licence to eat more toast.

I wonder if this might explain why for example I don't get on very well with low carb but my dad does.....? Unfortunately the article didn't seem to expand on the concept....

Ah - Gatorade Sports Science. Purveyors of sugary sweet things for athletes. The cynic in me thinks they are never going to recommend zero/low carbs for athletes.

The "feeling dreadful" thing is common. Low-carb flu. We all have two chemistry sets to play with - one works on carbs, the other on fat. Switching from one to the other as a primary fuel source takes a few days/weeks to accomplish. One set of enzymes has to be shelved and another brought into action. While that's going on, you can feel like crap - and certainly, you're unlikely to get any PBs in the gym.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on January 28, 2013, 05:37:05 pm
Most of us use both types of chemistry, switching to whatever's available.
I've not personally resorted to a ketogenic diet because I'm losing weight S-L-O-W-L-Y on a 'less of most things, most of the time' diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 28, 2013, 06:00:28 pm
Any suggestions for vegetarians in your paleo diet books?
Forget it.
Hunter-gatherers mostly hunted. Vegetariansim is a recent morally based fad, nothing to do with what the body needs/is evolved to digest.

(I'm paraphrasing).
I remain sceptical as to the long-term health benefits of the ketogenic diet.
We're all going to die of something.
I don't think eating lots of fat and not a lot of carbohydrates is any less or more bad than eating a lot of carbohydrate and not a lot of fat.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: clarion on January 28, 2013, 06:02:13 pm
That's a paraphrase of nonsense, then, I'm afraid.  Silly unscientific book, I have to conclude.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 28, 2013, 06:15:03 pm
On my brief reading of info about the diet, one slight disadvantage is a huge increase in cholesterol in the body. Not a problem for some, but for those coming from genetic history with a predisposition to cholesterol problems, I think I'd give this diet a miss.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 28, 2013, 06:19:58 pm
That's a paraphrase of nonsense, then, I'm afraid.  Silly unscientific book, I have to conclude.
They're big on inuits, native american tribes of various descriptions and african nomads- all of whom eat masses of meat.

Having said that, gathering enough nuts, vegetables and fruits takes a long long time. 'We' didn't eat much carbs till we got agriculture. About the same time we developed writing, reading and all those other modern fads. There's also a seasonality- we eat fruits in autumn>the carbs make us fat>we need the fat for the winter.

People (generally) aren't vegetarian because they think it's healthier. They're vegetarian for moral reasons, and use 'it's healthier' as an after the fact justification. We've "done" vegetarianism before, here (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=55294.0) so I'd rather this thread didn't get sidetracked.

On my brief reading of info about the diet, one slight disadvantage is a huge increase in cholesterol in the body. Not a problem for some, but for those coming from genetic history with a predisposition to cholesterol problems, I think I'd give this diet a miss.
I don't know where you get that from, the evidence I've seen is that it lowers cholesterol? Although, obviously, from biased sources.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 28, 2013, 06:41:35 pm
Quote
In adults, common side effects include weight loss, constipation, raised cholesterol levels

Probably because

Quote
Besides its role in the synthesis of ketone bodies, HMG-CoA is also an intermediate in the synthesis of cholesterol.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: rideron on January 28, 2013, 06:46:02 pm
It's 72g of glucose that the brain needs daily. But the body will break down fats into ketones for that. That's how we survived the ice age when there was'nt any carbs. What I was saying is that there are no carbs that are essential in the diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 28, 2013, 06:58:34 pm
On cholesterol specifically:

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/6/1339.full

Quote
Prospective studies indicate that VLCDs improve the lipoprotein profile independently of weight loss. Although not as effective at lowering LDL cholesterol (LDL-C), VLCDs consistently improve postabsorptive and postprandial triacylglycerols (TAGs), HDL cholesterol (HDL-C), and the distribution of LDL-C subfractions to a greater extent than low-fat diets.

Most of the stuff I've read so far suggests a low-carb diet improves all the markers of metabolic syndrome; namely lipid analysis (HDL up, Triglycerides way down, LDL particulate size changes), lower blood pressure (more harmonious relationship with sodium), lower body fat, improved insulin sensitivity,

and also shows improved cognitive capacity (no more 4pm dozies) and improved endurance at moderate work-rates.

If you're getting constipated, you're doing it wrong; more fibrous veggies, more fat, less protein and much more water.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Glover Fan on January 28, 2013, 07:02:06 pm
Just throwing in a curveball. I'd much rather 7 teaspoons of sugar than a man made chemical called aspartame to sweeten!

What I am beginning to discover is that a lot of fat alternative products end up containing man made chemicals that even flies won't touch! There was an interesting docu on TV that had a bowl of butter and low fat spread on a garden table. Over 24 hours flies and all sorts went for the butter. Nothing went for the low fat spread!

It's an interesting thread this. Although not necessarily appropriate timing for me as I destroy an 8oz burger with chips and a pint of hobgoblin.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 28, 2013, 07:04:38 pm
Just throwing in a curveball. I'd much rather 7 teaspoons of sugar than a man made chemical called aspartame to sweeten!

Well quite. We're lucky - at least in Europe we (mostly) escaped the metabolic nightmare that is High Fructose Corn Syrup.

I eat small amounts of sucralose. It's sucrose, but with chlorine added which has the effect of distracting the gaze of the digestive tract, which is pretty sure it's sucrose, but can't be 100% sure, so leaves it un-processed.

I believe, if I were a lab rat, it might be harmful to me if I was force-fed a kilo of it a day.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: rideron on January 28, 2013, 07:08:00 pm
All diets of whatever proportion of nutrient bias require at some point a reduction in overall calories. The big plus about a low carb approach is that you don't feel hungry all the time. For a lot of people the hunger pangs can be a deal breaker.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 28, 2013, 07:51:37 pm
Unlike Chris I won't do fake sugar. Except in ginger beer. And when I'm making crack cocaine raspberry cheese-fake-cake for him.

I think part of my problem in weight loss is a sweet tooth, a carb craving, and eating fake sugar wont help that.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 28, 2013, 08:22:51 pm
I just like to add that I'm not automatically against the diet, just think that all things need considering
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on January 28, 2013, 08:53:25 pm
That's a paraphrase of nonsense, then, I'm afraid.  Silly unscientific book, I have to conclude.
They're big on inuits, native american tribes of various descriptions and african nomads- all of whom eat masses of meat.

Having said that, gathering enough nuts, vegetables and fruits takes a long long time. 'We' didn't eat much carbs till we got agriculture. About the same time we developed writing, reading and all those other modern fads. There's also a seasonality- we eat fruits in autumn>the carbs make us fat>we need the fat for the winter.....
Writing & all that came much, much later. There was a longer time of agriculture without writing than there has been of writing.

Agriculture wasn't a sudden invention, BTW. It was a gradual process of encouraging plants we liked eating, at the expense of others, which eventually turned into planting them.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 28, 2013, 10:29:46 pm
I just like to add that I'm not automatically against the diet, just think that all things need considering

I don't think boab and I are here to defend it necessarily - we're each conducting N=1 experiments based on some challenging thinking from Gary Taubes and others.

I find it very hard to understand why we evolved such a crappy fueling scheme as the carbohydrate/insulin/glycogen model - that at best gives you a few hours of activity before you have to eat again, or fall over - whilst sidelining a much more efficient, cleaner, and longer lasting fuel supply - in the lipid/ketone model.

Which leads me to think - perhaps our fixation with carbohydrate has in fact flipped us all around. That in fact, we evolved to primarily use the lipid/ketone system and subsist on minimal quantities of carbs (berries, nuts and leafy stuff - perhaps tubers), and our carb/insulin/glycogen fuel supply is actually an emergency supply for rapid response such as flight or fight, which requires fast acting energy input that only anerobic chemistry (glycogen) can provide.

The large quantities of carbs in the typical western diet has to be processed by insulin. If it's not used immediately for fuel, it's stored in the fat cells for later, and we get a bit fatter. Whilst this is going on, stored fat is preserved and you are fueled mainly  by dietary fat and glycogen.
If you've got obese, and want to lose body fat, you need to sideline insulin as much as possible, so as to free up the mobilisation of stored fat. Several forms of diet do this indirectly - even just cutting calories does, because proportionately you cut more carbs than anything else. Removing sugar and refined carbs also helps, as these give the biggest insulin response.

The problem with cutting calories but still eating a high carb diet is, you get hungry. Equally, if you exercise more - you get hungry. I've definitely found my appetite suppressed on a low carb diet, so it's much easier to run a calorie deficit. At the same time, my blood sugar is stable (5.0mmol/L - nearly all the time, it's the same) and insulin is sidelined - except for processing a little glucose from my liver, to my brain.

And as of yesterday - it would appear I can ride a 200km winter audax on next to no carbs too.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 28, 2013, 11:54:02 pm
In a time when we didn't have heating, quick energy sources that either got used or stored as fat are a great thing.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on January 29, 2013, 01:24:05 am


http://weightology.net/?p=265
Title: Re: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2013, 07:44:02 am


http://weightology.net/?p=265

You don't have to look far to find Taubes haters. I'm not saying he's right. But he prompted me to think more about the problem.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: clarion on January 29, 2013, 07:48:50 am
Haters?  Odd choice of word.  It was a reasonable critique.
Title: Re: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2013, 08:05:24 am
Haters?  Odd choice of word.  It was a reasonable critique.

Poor choice of words. Taubes is a science journalist. He looks for inconsistencies in research - and quite possibly makes his own as the critique alludes to - and this doesn't win you any friends.

I think there's a lot of mileage in what  Taubes has to say. It's why I'm experimenting.

ETA: By the way, that critique is of the book 'Good Calories, Bad Calories', which I haven't read, so I'm not in a position to know if it's a good analysis or not.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 29, 2013, 08:44:57 am
Haters?  Odd choice of word.  It was a reasonable critique.
Very reasonable. On first glance I was preparing to dismiss it (I have an irrational dislike and distrust of overly polished and smug looking young americans). But it is a reasoned and reasonable article, carefully backed by cross-references to fact sources.

This, particularly, is an interesting chart:
(http://weightology.net/_jims_wpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/energy-density-price-chart1.jpg)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: rideron on January 29, 2013, 08:45:32 am
Good Calories Bad Calories is the American version of "The Diet Delusion" . But "Bad Science" is probably his best book.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 29, 2013, 08:53:56 am
I'm wondering if the reduction of carbs in my diet is making me more sympathetic to conspiracy theories.
 There's an awful lot of money being made from carbohydrates. It's not in the interests of global conglomerates for fat people to stop eating sugar. Who funds the research? Gatorade?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: rideron on January 29, 2013, 09:11:52 am
And Kellogg's?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 29, 2013, 09:12:06 am
There is money in selling food. Stick sugar in food, it tastes good (particularly to young people). Tastes good, we eat more, companies/shops sell more.

Sugar + fat is even more of an appetite stimulant. Terrible combination if you are trying to control your weight.  'scuse me, I need to go get some chocolate.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on January 29, 2013, 09:55:03 am
This is so refreshing to me. I'm enjoying the discussion. This kind of sums it up for me..

Quote
I'm not saying he's right. But he prompted me to think more about the problem.

I've kept my interest in low carbing pretty much to myself as such talk seems to upset some. I have no idea what 'the truth' is but I find this particular alternative worth looking at and experimenting with.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2013, 10:14:53 am
I'm wondering if the reduction of carbs in my diet is making me more sympathetic to conspiracy theories.
 There's an awful lot of money being made from carbohydrates. It's not in the interests of global conglomerates for fat people to stop eating sugar. Who funds the research? Gatorade?

Not to mention Big Pharma, in whose interest it is to keep us sick.

Find a cure for metabolic syndrome, and the statins market would disappear.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 29, 2013, 10:19:45 am
Chris, I'm assuming that was tongue in cheek.

A lot of my family died young from heart disease and they certainly weren't stuffed with sugar and excess carbs (due to rationing).

The ones that are still alive are alive due to modern drugs and surgery.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2013, 10:50:46 am
I didn't in any way wish to cast aspersions on your family, mrcharly.

But by and large and genetics aside, CVD is mostly avoidable. Drug intervention does wonders for keeping people alive and well.

My doctor once said to me "Chris, two thirds of the people in my waiting room are there because of their lifestyle choices."

(That was when I was having my "Well Man" session when I turned 40, and he famously said "I hope you're not making too many plans for your retirement...")
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on January 29, 2013, 10:55:09 am
I find it very hard to understand why we evolved such a crappy fueling scheme as the carbohydrate/insulin/glycogen model - that at best gives you a few hours of activity before you have to eat again, or fall over - whilst sidelining a much more efficient, cleaner, and longer lasting fuel supply - in the lipid/ketone model.

Which leads me to think - perhaps our fixation with carbohydrate has in fact flipped us all around. That in fact, we evolved to primarily use the lipid/ketone system and subsist on minimal quantities of carbs (berries, nuts and leafy stuff - perhaps tubers), and our carb/insulin/glycogen fuel supply is actually an emergency supply for rapid response such as flight or fight, which requires fast acting energy input that only anerobic chemistry (glycogen) can provide.

The large quantities of carbs in the typical western diet has to be processed by insulin. If it's not used immediately for fuel, it's stored in the fat cells for later, and we get a bit fatter. Whilst this is going on, stored fat is preserved and you are fueled mainly  by dietary fat and glycogen.
If you've got obese, and want to lose body fat, you need to sideline insulin as much as possible, so as to free up the mobilisation of stored fat. Several forms of diet do this indirectly - even just cutting calories does, because proportionately you cut more carbs than anything else. Removing sugar and refined carbs also helps, as these give the biggest insulin response.

The problem with cutting calories but still eating a high carb diet is, you get hungry. Equally, if you exercise more - you get hungry.
Two things:
1) Think about how our pre-agricultural ancestors lived. What Mr Charly said is one aspect of this -
Quote
In a time when we didn't have heating, quick energy sources that either got used or stored as fat are a great thing.
.
Another is that the only way they had to store food for long was in their own bodies. Obesity was not a problem. Starvation was. Get hungry when you're exercising, even though you have fat reserves - so what?  Get hungry when you cut your calorie intake below the level needed to sustain body weight? Doh! Of course! What would you expect?

We haven't evolved an 'off' switch for over-eating because there's no evolutionary need for one. What mechanism could cause one to evolve? We did not evolve surrounded by 24 hour convenience stores. Our ancestors had to work for every calorie.

If a diet does have the effect of switching off appetite when one is overweight, I think that's probably a signal that it's not the diet we evolved to cope with, & is triggering inappropriate reactions.

Purely on evolutionary grounds, I'd expect us to have a preference for foods with a high energy density which give quick blood sugar hits, followed by high energy density/slow release/storable, followed by whatever we can get that has some nutritional value, & with cravings for things which are rich in anything we're deficient in whenever we have dietary deficiencies.

2) Our closest relatives are opportunistic omnivores, with carbohydrate-heavy diets. They eat lots & lots of fruit, but also less sweet vegetables, & a bit of meat - which they sometimes obtain via organised hunts.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 29, 2013, 11:07:34 am
I love the way the skinny people know so much about what drives the obese.

Surely, obesity isn't an evolutionary advantage. It makes you less fertile, less able to escape, less fit for survival and reproduction. I can't think of any wild mammals, no matter how as lib their feeding regime who get fat unless there is a specific reason for it. Hibernation, starvation they're 'planning for', insulation against cold water, desert water storage.

I think there's more to it than calories in calories out, because otherwise half the western world is weak willed and lazy, and I just don't believe that's true. I'm not weak willed and lazy, I'm fat. I'm sick of loathing myself because my chemistry doesn't work fast enough.
I don't know if low carb high fat is the answer, but I do know that we don't know everything, yet, and some of the current thinking is at best unhelpful.
Title: Re: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on January 29, 2013, 11:21:57 am
Haters?  Odd choice of word.  It was a reasonable critique.

Poor choice of words. Taubes is a science journalist. He looks for inconsistencies in research - and quite possibly makes his own as the critique alludes to - and this doesn't win you any friends.

I think there's a lot of mileage in what  Taubes has to say. It's why I'm experimenting...
Very poor choice of words indeed. Perhaps you should think about why you wrote it.

I've not read the book, so can't fully judge the criticism, but it reads to me as perfectly reasonable - and damning. To take one example, the point on under reporting of calorie intake by obese people is, as the reviewer says, very well established. It's been demonstrated even when the subjects were in controlled environments where they knew their food intake was being measured. It's been postulated that it's a cause, not a result, of obesity.

If on reading the book I found Taubes really hasn't taken that into account, then I'd stop reading there, unless I felt like reading on in a "let's see how much more crap there is" mood. It's basic stuff, not a minor error.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 29, 2013, 11:43:34 am
I didn't in any way wish to cast aspersions on your family, mrcharly.

But by and large and genetics aside, CVD is mostly avoidable. Drug intervention does wonders for keeping people alive and well.

My doctor once said to me "Chris, two thirds of the people in my waiting room are there because of their lifestyle choices."
That would apply to the family. My father, having lost Mum, Dad, brother (and another brother with serious heart disease), was terrified of obesity and horribly critical of people who were fat. His immediate family were all huge people - and on the whole, physically inactive (so entirely unlike you and boab). My first wife was (and is) a 'substantial' lady and my father was very critical of this.
My dad was physically energetic and did manual work all his life. Mum supervised his eating tho'. So his lifestyle helped keep him going. Still got serious heart disease before he was 65.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on January 29, 2013, 11:44:53 am
Surely, obesity isn't an evolutionary advantage. It makes you less fertile, less able to escape, less fit for survival and reproduction. I can't think of any wild mammals, no matter how as lib their feeding regime who get fat unless there is a specific reason for it. Hibernation, starvation they're 'planning for', insulation against cold water, desert water storage.
I'm afraid you've missed the point. Of course obesity isn't an evolutionary advantage - but that doesn't matter to evolution. Wild animals don't have the opportunity to become obese, so they don't become obese. Therefore, they don't evolve internal mechanisms for preventing it. They don't need such mechanisms. There is no evolutionary pressure to evolve them, no way in which they can evolve. There are external mechanisms which work perfectly well, some of which you allude to.

Our problem is that we've eliminated those external mechanisms. For most human societies, external mechanisms remained in place for most people, until very recently (productivity of agriculture meant price of food in relation to average income was too high for most people to over-eat, most work was manual, etc.), but now, for the first time ever, calorie consumption for a large part of the human population is constrained by appetite instead of supply.

I'm not going to criticise anyone for being unable to do something which they have no inbuilt mechanism for. I'm well aware that I have my own motivation problems (& no, I'm not going to say what). But saying it is so is not criticism, whether of individuals or the mass.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 29, 2013, 02:12:15 pm
Ever such a lot of fad diets (the one where you cut out gluten, the one where you can't have carbs, the one where you can only squirt lemon juice in your eyes and beat your head against a wall in place of meals) have a whole lot of hokum surrounding the one detail of "stop eating processed food."

I've lost count of the number of colleagues who have brightly told me that they learned they were gluten intolerant after losing half a stone.  The idea that it might just be the loss of their daily Krispy Kreme rather than an actual food intolerance didn't seem to have occurred.  Ditto people who have ascertained that their blood group doesn't permit Krispy Kremes, or found that carbs disagree with them via Atkins, and people who are trying to eat a stone age diet, or even the ones on the Maple Bloody Syrup Diet or the ones who are quite possibly picking through sheep entrails to divine their perfect diet: they all have the one thing in common. Step away from the lovely delicious processed cake.

Julian's posted this -> over there somewhere. Sounds really reasonable, doesn't it?

Until you realise that some of us are ditching the calories from that lovely delicious processed cake, to the same calories from lovely delicious processed double cream. And losing weight.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 29, 2013, 02:23:19 pm
Until you realise that some of us are ditching the calories from that lovely delicious processed cake, to the same calories from lovely delicious processed double cream. And losing weight.
You do make me wonder if the real EvilSubstance here is sugar, in its many forms.

If I could eat butter with butter on it, I would.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 29, 2013, 02:36:27 pm
If I could eat butter with butter on it, I would.

I think we had that, at the weekend...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 29, 2013, 02:44:29 pm
curse you.

I'm going to start eating my old breakfast standby again, half a bowl of nuts with enough thick cream to cover them.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Pickled Onion on January 29, 2013, 02:49:01 pm
Until you realise that some of us are ditching the calories from that lovely delicious processed cake, to the same calories from lovely delicious processed double cream. And losing weight.

It's not very processed though - isn't it just separated from the milk by spinning it round? If that counts as "processed food" then so is peeling a carrot.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 29, 2013, 03:09:53 pm
Pasteurized

Separated

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: RichForrest on January 29, 2013, 03:13:21 pm
Until you realise that some of us are ditching the calories from that lovely delicious processed cake, to the same calories from lovely delicious processed double cream. And losing weight.
You do make me wonder if the real EvilSubstance here is sugar, in its many forms.

If I could eat butter with butter on it, I would.

I think you've hit it spot on here. I've found when I eat anything sweet I'll be hungry again in a couple of hours.
My other one was always bread.
Rough idea what my day was like
Cereal and toast for breakfast. Blood sugar level drops a couple of hrs later and hungry again but too early for lunch. What to eat?
Sandwich, quick and easy.
Lunchtime another couple of hrs later, Already eaten mid morning so don't want nothing much.
Bugger it I'll have another sandwich.
I cut out a lot of processed food and don't feel as hungry now even with eating less.
I've noticed the same with yogurt, eating named brands with "flavours" in and I'll be hungry again in about 1.5 / 2hrs. Eating natural yogurt I don't get that same feeling.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on January 29, 2013, 03:33:48 pm
I think one key is the assumption that one has to eat as soon as one feels hungry. If I feel hungry half way between meals, I'll eat only if I feel that the hunger will become distracting. I think that slight hunger means "I can eat", not "I should eat".

Well, unless you're riding an audax, or the like.  ;)

When food supplies are erratic, the distinction is unimportant. You eat when you have food, & then you eat as much as possible. When you have all the food you can eat, all the time, it matters a lot.

It's like the old saying that one should always finish a meal feeling one could have eaten a bit more. Inappropriate advice to a hunter-gatherer, but IMO absolutely right for someone in a food-rich society.

I think we're programmed to eat more than we need, because it's the best way to make sure we can eat enough to get through shortages. Feeling a bit hungry was probably normal for our pre-agricultural ancestors. The "alternative hypothesis" lot who classify obesity as a growth disorder, rather than an expected response to our evolutionary heritage, are wrong. The people with growth disorders are those who don't put on weight when they don't have a restricted food intake. Come a famine, they'd be the first to go.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Julian on January 29, 2013, 03:42:43 pm
Ever such a lot of fad diets (the one where you cut out gluten, the one where you can't have carbs, the one where you can only squirt lemon juice in your eyes and beat your head against a wall in place of meals) have a whole lot of hokum surrounding the one detail of "stop eating processed food."

I've lost count of the number of colleagues who have brightly told me that they learned they were gluten intolerant after losing half a stone.  The idea that it might just be the loss of their daily Krispy Kreme rather than an actual food intolerance didn't seem to have occurred.  Ditto people who have ascertained that their blood group doesn't permit Krispy Kremes, or found that carbs disagree with them via Atkins, and people who are trying to eat a stone age diet, or even the ones on the Maple Bloody Syrup Diet or the ones who are quite possibly picking through sheep entrails to divine their perfect diet: they all have the one thing in common. Step away from the lovely delicious processed cake.

Julian's posted this -> over there somewhere. Sounds really reasonable, doesn't it?

Until you realise that some of us are ditching the calories from that lovely delicious processed cake, to the same calories from lovely delicious processed double cream. And losing weight.

I'm being curmudgeonly :)

I don't have a problem with people working out what works for them - it's none of my business.  I'm sure that for some people the high-fat low-carb thing works well, just as others swear by low-fat high-carb.  Wevs.  What does irk me is the office "Beach Bodies" brigade whose non-dieting diet is pastry for breakfast, kitkat midmorning, sandwich for lunch (or nothing because that's "being good"), bottle of wine in the evening* coming over and preaching to me about their latest fad diet when their weight loss is nothing to do with the new fad diet and everything to do with not being 'allowed' heavily processed high-fat high-sugar foods. I don't believe in miracles and I'm buggered if I'm going to be shamed into drinking lemon juice for dinner for a week just because some idiot** read it in Grazia.



*My diet is not dissimilar to this, except it contains more pork pie.
** Idiots doing Grazia diets are not necessarily in the same Venn diagram as people investigating what eating plans work well for them.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2013, 04:02:21 pm
I've not read about or encountered anyone who didn't show "improvements" in their metabolic state, when they cut out refined carbohydrates like sugar, flour and starch. Plenty of others here with their own Paleo/low carb stories.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on January 29, 2013, 04:29:39 pm
Flour isn't necessarily any more refined than just being ground up. And that's not what we've been discussing, is it? Cutting out refined sugar & refined starch isn't the same as a ketogenic diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2013, 04:40:40 pm
Flour isn't necessarily any more refined than just being ground up. And that's not what we've been discussing, is it? Cutting out refined sugar & refined starch isn't the same as a ketogenic diet.

It's a sliding scale. The further you go down it, the more ketogenic you get.

You may be surprised if you were to see what I eat. As I said upthread - it's meat/fish/dairy with salads, non-starchy veggies, and small amounts of berries and nuts. The motivation behind it might be controversial - if Taubes' credentials are that dubious - but the actual diet isn't.

There's a lecture given by Robert Lustig on YouTube somewhere, about sugar/HFCS and obesity. Near the start he says, "Eat real food. There - that's all you need to know. You can go home now". That's kind of what we're doing, eating real food and no refined sugars and carbs.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on January 29, 2013, 06:06:05 pm
Flour isn't necessarily any more refined than just being ground up. And that's not what we've been discussing, is it? Cutting out refined sugar & refined starch isn't the same as a ketogenic diet.

Its because of the high glycomic index of modern grains, that it's considered bad on low carb diets. Cutting out refined sugar & starch is more like a paleo diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: RichForrest on January 29, 2013, 06:30:03 pm
There was a documentary on the BBC a few months back which you can find on YouTube "The men who made us fat".
I find when eating those foods I get what he describes and feel hungry in a lot shorter time than I do when eating unprocessed food.
By the "feeling hungry" I just get the empty feeling. Probably not really hungry but just a blood sugar drop that my body wants more sugar.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 29, 2013, 07:01:29 pm
I think one key is the assumption that one has to eat as soon as one feels hungry. If I feel hungry half way between meals, I'll eat only if I feel that the hunger will become distracting. I think that slight hunger means "I can eat", not "I should eat".
Well, unless you're riding an audax, or the like.  ;)
Today we did our first ketogenic audax. Calorie consumption: 1400kcal. 204k, 10hr 50 (inc stops) 20+mph winds and gusts over 30mph. And most importantly: I'm not hungry.

Assuming that people eat as soon as they're even slightly hungry and that's what makes them fat is making out they're weak willed and lazy. Thanks. So we all fail at our calorie counting diets because we just can't resist the food. Where strong willed people like yourself stay slight because you don't eat between meals.
 
Or is it in fact that your hunger is less than mine? Or that I can't handle the swings of low blood sugar? That our metabolisms work differently, and just as I have different hair and eye colour than you, you can go longer between meals than I can when I'm running off glucose.

ETA: sorry, that's really defensive. But really, smug thin people lecturing to the fatties is almost as bad as the childless telling you how to raise your children...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on January 29, 2013, 08:12:24 pm
I think one key is the assumption that one has to eat as soon as one feels hungry. If I feel hungry half way between meals, I'll eat only if I feel that the hunger will become distracting. I think that slight hunger means "I can eat", not "I should eat".
Well, unless you're riding an audax, or the like.  ;)
Assuming that people eat as soon as they're even slightly hungry and that's what makes them fat is making out they're weak willed and lazy. Thanks.
Stop inventing attitudes & attributing them to me! This isn't (at least on my part) either personal, or about you!

I have never said, implied, meant, or thought, that this is about being weak-willed & lazy. Please try to remember it. To me, anyone who does truly long distance (i.e. more than the 200 km which are the longest I've done) rides can't be either.


BTW, if you want smug thin people lecturing fatties, look at some of the people proclaiming the benefits of high-fat low-carbohydrate diets.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hubner on January 29, 2013, 08:24:09 pm
Maybe people in the comfy West with its unlimited supply of food should get used to feeling very slightly hungry, all the time.

It seems to me humans actually need very little food to survive, in relation to the amount you can eat before feeling "full". When you have unlimited rich energy dense food, a sedentary life style; the result is overweight people.

In fact I'd say it's natural (in the evolutionary sense) to be fat when you can eat as much as you want. Basically, fat people eat too much!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2013, 08:51:04 pm
I have two main goals from this exercise.

1. Lose body fat (I'm currently at about 20%, I'd like to get down to 10% if possible).
2. Take advantage of the "keto-adaptation" that authors Volek & Phinney talk of in their books.

The first seems to be happening, but it's early days - and let's make no mistake, although I'm more open-minded, if not downright skeptical of the Calories In/Out paradigm,  I'm still eating to a calorie deficit.

The second also seems to be happening, in that we were able to ride a 200k audax on Sunday, with no more food than on a normal day, without any issues of bonking or hunger. It seems to me this is very very useful for long distance cycling, and the moderate pace of such lends itself perfectly to this - there's little Zone 5 work if you stay out of the mountains.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: clarion on January 29, 2013, 08:54:34 pm
The main principles of this diet seem to be to reduce calorie intake, increase (or maintain) activity, and reduce processed food consumption.

Curiously close to vegan and vegetarian principles.  ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2013, 08:57:28 pm
The main principles of this diet seem to be to reduce calorie intake, increase (or maintain) activity, and reduce processed food consumption.

Curiously close to vegan and vegetarian principles.  ;D

(Hides 24oz steak)

Erm... yes, absolutely  :D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Glover Fan on January 29, 2013, 09:07:35 pm
Quote from: boabacca

ETA: sorry, that's really defensive. But really, smug thin people lecturing to the fatties is almost as bad as the childless telling you how to raise your children...
With respect, I commented and I was borderline obese once. I'm not anymore and I didn't try any fad diets. I ate the same foods less often, in smaller portions and increased exercise.

It's a simple and well accepted mechanism.

We all know why people gain weight, I gained half a stone in the three months before Christmas. I lost my willpower.

It's insensitive to sit here and preach if you have never had weight issues, but a lot of us have and know how difficult it is to lose weight. It's demoralising to realise that it's a constant battle against the thing we all love most; food. But it's more of a mental battle than anything some scientist of the moment comes up with regarding diets. IMO.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: CrinklyLion on January 29, 2013, 09:17:34 pm
...the same foods less often, in smaller portions and increased exercise.

It's a simple and well accepted mechanism.

We all know why people gain weight, I gained half a stone in the three months before Christmas. I lost my willpower.

...

But I think the point that boabacca may have been making, if she'll forgive me for putting words in her mouth (now that I no longer fill her gob with caik), is that for _her_ that mechanism didn't work.  It wasn't a failing of willpower, and she is consuming the same amount of calories now as when she was not experimenting with the ketogenic diet but with, in _her_ case, less hunger and more weight loss.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: redshift on January 29, 2013, 09:21:54 pm
There was a documentary on the BBC a few months back which you can find on YouTube "The men who made us fat".
I find when eating those foods I get what he describes and feel hungry in a lot shorter time than I do when eating unprocessed food.
By the "feeling hungry" I just get the empty feeling. Probably not really hungry but just a blood sugar drop that my body wants more sugar.

The series made mention of John Yudkin's book "Pure, white and deadly" which at the time would have set me back about £250 for a copy, as it's something of a forgotten classic.*

I see Penguin have reprinted it, so now you can get it for less than a tenner.  I bet that's put a crimp in the secondhand market...


* Or suppressed, depending on your level of conspiracy awareness.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: rideron on January 29, 2013, 10:55:41 pm
Quote: Michael Pollen - 1. Eat real food.  2. Not too much.  3. Mostly plants.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on January 30, 2013, 09:34:56 am
Quote from: boabacca

ETA: sorry, that's really defensive. But really, smug thin people lecturing to the fatties is almost as bad as the childless telling you how to raise your children...
With respect, I commented and I was borderline obese once.
Is that by the BMI scale? Load of bollocks is that scale. According to it I am overweight now and was borderline obese when I did the easter arrow last year. People who meet me generally say I'm skinny.

.... she is consuming the same amount of calories now as when she was not experimenting with the ketogenic diet but with, in _her_ case, less hunger and more weight loss.
This is probably the last word that needs saying on the subject.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: SteveC on January 30, 2013, 12:37:41 pm
To add a bit of anecdata to the 'processed food' part of this thread...

I find that home made bread is much more satisfying and keeps me not-hungry for far longer than shop bought, however good.
We make pretty well all our own bread.  Some years ago, I discovered that it is possible to part-bake and freeze pizza bases, which makes a huge difference to the practicality of having home made pizza. Before that, our standard Friday evening just-come-in-from-Tesco dinner was pizza.  Tesco deep pan pizzas.  Two, different flavours, half of each for each of us.  Yes, that's a lot of pizza, but we would still end up with crisps later on!  So, first week of new pizzas, I prepare and cook two, one each, as before.  We get half way through and MrsC says, "do you think this would keep for tomorrow's lunch?"  So the next week I make one pizza between us.  It's still too much.  So for the next batch of pizzas we use the same quantity of flour for six bases instead of four.  Now part of this might be that our bread isn't as light and puffed up as commercial stuff, but I think there's more going on than just that. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on January 30, 2013, 03:39:40 pm
As I understand it, the 'evolutionary perspective' (all very vogue at one point in many subjects, is it still?) underpins low carbing, and obviously paleo. In short, it suggests our digestive systems cannot handle modern processed foods and it's giving rise to all manner of disease (diabetes etc).

I guess if we employ the same paradigm we could say that in x thousands of years, we might actually evolve to eat the Big Mac (if doctors would stop treating related disease that is). Except maybe by the time, McDonalds will be long gone and replaced by lord knows what.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 02, 2013, 09:12:45 pm
Study in this week's BMJ suggests low-carb diet may be associated with higher risk of cardiovascular disease in Swedish women.
Sorry, paywall. http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e4026 (http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e4026)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 02, 2013, 09:25:08 pm
Is that the same study as this one (http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e4026), linked to by oranj a couple of weeks ago?

Low carb/high protein. We've all become terrified of fat, LCHF (low carb High fat) is better for you, and is mostly the change between the first Atkins book and the second.

I wonder what the correlation in that same group of women would have been between BMI and cardiovascular disease?

To be honest, I don't care on a population-wide scale if it's better for you or not. I think people are too different for blanket suggestions to work for everyone. Given that both my grandfathers died (aged less than 65) of cardiovascular disease, and both my grandmothers died (aged 55 & 75) with alzheimers and my dad's on statins & betablockers, I'm probably doomed anyway.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 02, 2013, 09:35:58 pm
Yes, sorry.
You're quite right about differences between groups and indiviuals...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on February 03, 2013, 08:53:17 pm
"Still no evidence that the Swedes are killing themselves with low-carb diets"

http://www.drbriffa.com/2013/01/26/still-no-evidence-that-the-swedes-are-killing-themselves-with-low-carb-diets/

Quote
I was well aware of the study at the time, but chose not to write about it because, as I explain below, I believe it really is a rubbish piece of ‘research’ which tells us essentially nothing about the impact of low carbohydrate diets on health
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on February 08, 2013, 08:05:38 pm
This is a good video about Paleo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U36XJaETbh8&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on February 08, 2013, 09:18:46 pm
This is a good video about Paleo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U36XJaETbh8&feature=youtu.be

Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?
Bread and white potatoes were also common with our (European) ancestors and how healthy were those ancestors anyway?. Slim does not automatically equals healthy. Further our ancestors were much more likely to be physical active (less automation) and as such didn't *need* to work-out.

I do like (and mostly believe in) the paleo diet, but some of the preaching is bullshit.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 08, 2013, 09:52:55 pm
<pedant> Weren't potatoes brought to Europe from America  only 400 years ago?
Our caveman ancestors would never have eaten them!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: clarion on February 08, 2013, 09:59:21 pm
Don't muddy the evangelism with facts!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on February 08, 2013, 10:05:53 pm
<pedant> Weren't potatoes brought to Europe from America  only 400 years ago?
Our caveman ancestors would never have eaten them!

If you watch the video, it's clear that he's also comparing to only a few generations back.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on February 09, 2013, 09:11:40 am
Further our ancestors were much more likely to be physical active (less automation) and as such didn't *need* to work-out.

I think this is an important factor. Our lifestyles today (particularly western) are comparatively sedentary. I don't feel we need to work-out at all, just be more generally active.  The Paleo (et al) diet acknowledges that.
 
Quote
I do like (and mostly believe in) the paleo diet, but some of the preaching is bullshit.

Same here. Sadly there are those that go just a little too far in all walks of life.

I'm racking my brains here (and it hurts!) but isn't there some 'xyz paradox theory' that addresses the question 'why are' the Chinese/Italians not fat when they eat so much rice/pasta'?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: SteveC on February 09, 2013, 09:19:17 am
I think we seriously underestimate how much energy people used to burn--how hard life actually was.
Some research has been done1, which shows how much food and drink a farm labourer in the 17th century got as part of his wages.  Comes out at around 4500 Calories per day.  Now it is very likely that he didn't eat all of this himself, but shared some with his family (who probably also got food from their employer as well), but it's still going to be a lot.  Working physically all day, every day, and living in accommodation with just about no heating, uses a lot of energy.  We have it so easy these days.

1) Not fully published yet, I've heard it though personal communication from one of the people involved in helping with the work)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jules on February 09, 2013, 01:35:20 pm


I'm racking my brains here (and it hurts!) but isn't there some 'xyz paradox theory' that addresses the question 'why are' the Chinese/Italians not fat when they eat so much rice/pasta'?

<rash generalisation - contains no science> Traditionally Italians eat a small breakfast with Cappuccino coffee (never consumed after 11am - after which they drink expresso) and a small roll or pastry. Pasta with a more or less rich sauce then Meat or fish with one vegetable for lunch with usually fruit for desert. A lighter meal, often pizza, but rarely pasta, in the evenings.

With fewer people coming home for lunch they now often snack at lunchtime and eat big meals in the evening (like the UK) and are getting fatter.

It's a mistake to judge Italian dishes by the way they are consumed by foreigners.

</rgcns>
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: geraldc on February 09, 2013, 01:44:02 pm


Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?

The trouble is, is that the Asian diet is evolving, along with rice, we're eating more meat and fat, and now they think white rice is what's causing the boom in diabetes.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: crowriver on February 09, 2013, 03:41:03 pm
This all sounds a bit like Atkins, or maybe a higher fat version of The Zone diet, which was big in the late 90s/early noughties (my wife is a fan).

I'm sticking to 5:2 for now and will see where it gets me.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hubner on February 09, 2013, 04:21:46 pm


Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?

The trouble is, is that the Asian diet is evolving, along with rice, we're eating more meat and fat, and now they think white rice is what's causing the boom in diabetes.

"The Asian diet"? Perhaps you mean the southern Chinese diet, rather than the Indian, Central Asian, Mongolian, South East Asian etc diet.

You could say people everywhere, regardless of their diet, have been "traditionally" slim,. It's only in the last few generations that people in the west have got overweight. So for thousands of years, grain based diets have been fine but suddenly we're told actually grain based diets are the causes of obesity. It just happens that this is at the same as people move to a sedentary life style and being able to eat unlimited amounts of food. Also note the amount of low cost but rich energy dense foods (actually snacks) now available.

It's a "disease of affluence". Just look at the average person in developing countries with their grain and rice (carb) based diets, are they overweight?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on February 09, 2013, 04:26:40 pm
You could say people everywhere, regardless of their diet, have been "traditionally" slim,. It's only in the last few generations that people in the west have got overweight. So for thousands of years, grain based diets have been fine but suddenly we're told actually grain based diets are the causes of obesity. It just happens that this is at the same as people move to a sedentary life style and being able to eat unlimited amounts of food. Also note the amount of low cost but rich energy dense foods (actually snacks) now available.

It's a "disease of affluence". Just look at the average person in developing countries with their grain and rice (carb) based diets, are they overweight?
Absolutely right. The equation carbohydrate rich diet=obesity does not add up.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: crowriver on February 09, 2013, 05:23:39 pm
I think it is the way grains and starch are processed in modern food that is the problem. Processed sugar, white flour, refined fats, etc.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hubner on February 09, 2013, 06:45:38 pm
I think it is the way grains and starch are processed in modern food that is the problem. Processed sugar, white flour, refined fats, etc.

Or maybe it's what food you make from those ingredients.

Eg, white floor. You could use white flour and make it into pasta. Then add a tomato sauce, with a little meat for flavouring. Add a side dish of say vegetable/potato salad and you have a healthy, nutritious and filling meal.

Or you could take that white flour, add in equal amounts of butter, sugar and cream and turn it into a cake. The result is junk food; a rich, energy dense, nutritionally "empty" non filling snack that should be an occasional treat, but gets eaten as an everyday food.



Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 09, 2013, 06:52:31 pm
I think we are too ready to blame one single factor of our choosing, rather than the multiple factors that cause an environment in which it is easy to gain fat.
Most of us are less active than our forebears.
It is easy to eat meat, which has been very costly in the past. Portion sizes have grown.
A combination of fat + sugar + refined starch is extremely calorific, easy to eat and cheap. Crispy Kreme??? CAEK??? Gulab jamun??? Kit-Kat??? Sweet & sour pork balls???
Our homes are warm.

A ketogenic diet will work for some;
Moving more whilst eating the same will work for others.
Avoiding most fried food may be effective as might eating less-processed food.

Concentrating on a single factor might help with weight loss but loses sight of the big picture.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 09, 2013, 07:13:16 pm
Second 200 audax done on keto today. We pushed a wee bit harder than last time - first 30k at 29kph in fact; and overall, 25kph moving average. We also rode it as 2x100 non-stop stints.

As previously, no hunger bonks and no lack of energy. We stopped half way for some low carb/high fat lunch, but TBH neither of us were particularly hungry. It's liberating not having that empty feeling when you're running low on carbs.

Interesting stuff!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ashaman42 on February 09, 2013, 07:19:41 pm
See that makes it tempting, the lack of bonkitude. But then you say it cuts the top end out a bit and frankly even my top end is slow so not sure I can lose any of it.

*Ponders*
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 09, 2013, 07:26:28 pm
See that makes it tempting, the lack of bonkitude. But then you say it cuts the top end out a bit and frankly even my top end is slow so not sure I can lose any of it.

*Ponders*

The top end (such as it is - I'm no Power-lifter a la Andy Gates!) seems to be coming back now. I've been keeping up with push-ups, and have started some limited weights work at the gym. The hills seemed much less arduous today.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 09, 2013, 07:31:39 pm
I'm not hungry in the same way. For me, it seems that fat is more filling.
It's worth the awkwardness not to be at the mercy of a seemingly unslakeable appetite.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Glover Fan on February 09, 2013, 08:31:47 pm
Second 200 audax done on keto today. We pushed a wee bit harder than last time - first 30k at 29kph in fact; and overall, 25kph moving average. We also rode it as 2x100 non-stop stints.

As previously, no hunger bonks and no lack of energy. We stopped half way for some low carb/high fat lunch, but TBH neither of us were particularly hungry. It's liberating not having that empty feeling when you're running low on carbs.

Interesting stuff!
Indeed, but I wonder if it is the lack of carbs or rather the reduction of eating episodes and/or portion sizes that are the reason for this?

I find when I consciously try to lose weight that I do not snack, whether that be on nuts, fruit, chocolate whatever. A massive consequence is that I am hungry less often and at meal times I fill up quicker.

It's great that you have found something that works well for you, but on a wider scale it could well be consequential. :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 09, 2013, 09:08:29 pm
Indeed, but I wonder if it is the lack of carbs or rather the reduction of eating episodes and/or portion sizes that are the reason for this?

I find when I consciously try to lose weight that I do not snack, whether that be on nuts, fruit, chocolate whatever. A massive consequence is that I am hungry less often and at meal times I fill up quicker.

It's great that you have found something that works well for you, but on a wider scale it could well be consequential. :)

I don't think so. I still eat three/four times a day plus snacks, and I occasionally eat like a pig. I just eat different things, that's all that's changed.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 09, 2013, 09:25:43 pm
Indeed, but I wonder if it is the lack of carbs or rather the reduction of eating episodes and/or portion sizes that are the reason for this?

I find when I consciously try to lose weight that I do not snack, whether that be on nuts, fruit, chocolate whatever. A massive consequence is that I am hungry less often and at meal times I fill up quicker.
Definitely not. You make out we've never tried to lose weight before. O how I wish that were true.
The crucial thing is not that I'm eating fewer calories- I'm not. I'm eating more calories than I was, when I was trying to eat low fat/high fibre/more wholegrain, and exercise away any excess food. I used to really look forward to audax days- as then I'd be 'allowed' to eat as much as I liked, because even my greed doesn't usually extend to 4000 calories a day. The rest of the time I would be consciously not eating  feeling hungry, eating about 2000 calories and exercising away about 800.
Diets don't work. All the research, on every kind of diet, shows that 5 years later the number of people who have kept the weight off is tiny. We lose weight, and we put it all back on. We put it all back on because the food is still there, and we're hungry. It's nice.
Eating this way seems, so far, to mean that I'm not as hungry. Riding for 8 hours hasn't made me hungry. Running doesn't make me hungry. Swimming doesn't make me hungry. I'm still going to have the same issues of eating when I'm bored, and comfort eating, but I don't seem to be fighting a constant battle against fluctuating blood sugar.
We've tried doing 'fasted audaxing' before and it was an unmitigated failure. No one likes getting the shakes, or tunnel vision, and that's what happens if you use all your stored glucose for fuel and don't replace it.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: andrew_s on February 09, 2013, 10:23:47 pm
There was an interesting article in New Scientist in the 18th Aug issue hypothesizing that ketosis was the cause of spontaneous human combustion

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/science-scope/spontaneous-combustion-might-be-real-and-pigs-might-help-us-figure-out-why-it-happens/13542
(annoying popups, but the NS link is subscribers only)

If anyone catches fire, let us know  ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on February 10, 2013, 08:14:11 am


Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?

The trouble is, is that the Asian diet is evolving, along with rice, we're eating more meat and fat, and now they think white rice is what's causing the boom in diabetes.

"The Asian diet"? Perhaps you mean the southern Chinese diet, rather than the Indian, Central Asian, Mongolian, South East Asian etc diet.



Sorry, I define 'Asian' the non-UK way. Oriental diet, if you like.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on February 10, 2013, 08:23:13 am


Eg, white floor. You could use white flour and make it into pasta. Then add a tomato sauce, with a little meat for flavouring. Add a side dish of say vegetable/potato salad and you have a healthy, nutritious and filling meal.


Not according to the 'paleo' principle and I tend to agree. Too many carbs and not enough fat/protein.

The couple of times where I have succeeded in maintain the paleo diet, I may not have found a new fountain of energy, but there was a distinct lack of sugar spikes. About 3 weeks in, a colleage brought in birthday cake, I had a slice and 1 later I was almost asleep.
I get the same when I (occasionally) make pancakes for breakfast on the weekend: 1 hour of activity and I'm tired and hungry...If I have eggs & bacon, I can easily carry on without lunch if I have to.

The biggest problem is that if you want a quick snack and have nothing prepared, sugar/grain filled snacks are way easier to get hold of.

Good thread, though...I'm inspired to try again and will start from Tuesday.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 10, 2013, 09:24:06 am
If anyone catches fire, let us know  ;D

I'd better slap Hazchem and Inflammable stickers on my forehead  ;)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: geraldc on February 10, 2013, 09:48:00 am
"The Asian diet"? Perhaps you mean the southern Chinese diet, rather than the Indian, Central Asian, Mongolian, South East Asian etc diet.

I just used the term that was being used on the thread, but it is being seen as a pan Asian problem, here in the UK type 2 diabetes is big in the South Asian/Indian subcontinent communities too, and in the US, diabetes is much larger in the Asian & Pacific islander communities.
http://aadi.joslin.org/content/diabetes-asians-asian-americans
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on February 10, 2013, 10:38:23 am
The biggest problem is that if you want a quick snack and have nothing prepared, sugar/grain filled snacks are way easier to get hold of.

Ain't that the truth! If I'm in need of something to eat on a long ride, a boulangerie is about the most likely place to be around & open.... bread and pastries!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 10, 2013, 12:16:16 pm
Try the charcuterie instead?  ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 10, 2013, 01:03:15 pm
Keep some nuts in your bag!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Julian on February 10, 2013, 01:05:41 pm
I am a firm believer that Diets Don't Work - meaning diets as in, get your beach body here, 3-day detox, cabbage soup, instant slimmer stuff.  As far as I can tell, these are just a recipe to have your body's response to food totally screwed up and return to above your pre-diet weight, leaving you miserable, fatter than ever, and ripe for the next charlatan who wants to sell you a load of hokey.  The diet industry is huge (as it were) and it relies on people coming back again, and again, and again.   

Diets as in the older sense of the word - an eating regime, the way you choose to eat, e.g. eating a vegetarian diet / halal diet / an 'invalid diet' (anyone else learn about that at Guides?) and so on - I'm much more interested in.

From reading boabacca's posts, I seem to have a fairly similar metabolism: I stay more or less the same weight, which is above my 'ideal' regardless of calories in and out - so I generally haven't bothered.  If eating dust means I lose a measly 2 pounds and my sense of humour, I may as well eat bread and beer and enjoy life.  So I thought I'd give this a try, and it does seem to work.  I started on Monday so that's just under a week, and it went in the sort of order of Monday - fine, but hungry.  Tuesday, headaches (presumably sugar withdrawal).  Wednesday I felt dreadful in the morning and then much, much better, and normal service seems to have been resumed.

Report one week in:  I'm not permanently hungry which I did use to be.  I'm hoping it will improve my energy levels because getting up in the mornings has been a mission for years - I don't think it's just being lazy, and I wonder if it's connected to sugar levels.  Not feeling 'empty' in the same way means it's harder to tell when I'm getting hungry - I seem to go from fine to NEED FOOD NOW in about ten seconds.  A week without sugar has made sweet stuff taste sweeter.  It seems pretty easy to stick to because I've always preferred veg to fruit, and after years of indoctrination that fat = evil, high fat food is a 'treat' with every meal.  I've also noticed a difference brushing my teeth - a low sugar diet is definitely better for my teeth and gums (I have crappy gums, which bleed if I smile at sugar.)  Oh, and I've lost 4lbs this week. 

However, before I get too carried away with how great it is, I've also looked at what I would have eaten if I weren't trying this - and it's more calories, definitely (nb I'm not saying that's the same for everyone but it's certainly true for me.)  For example yesterday I had smoked salmon and scrambled eggs for breakfast.  I would usually have had toast with that, although I would not have had the raspberries and cream as well.  I skipped lunch because I was in a hurry and the only low carb food in the house needed cooking which I didn't have time for, so I had two mini babybel where I would usually have had a sandwich.  The afternoon I was at a workshop full of queer women which meant there was delicious cake of every type including ones with coffee buttercream which I would definitely have had at least one of, normally.  Someone else had brought Quality Street and I would usually have taken one.  In the evening we went out for a meal and I had calves liver and broccoli - but left the potatoes on my plate, whereas I would usually have eaten them. 

And, of course, no beer in the evening.  I've used the Livestrong calories counter to work out that yesterday although I ate more fat than usual and under 50g carbs, I would have eaten just over 2000 calories yesterday if I were eating carbs, whereas in fact I ate 1250.  So for me there is a calorie difference as well as the processing difference. 

I haven't tried doing any actual exercise with it yet :-[  But I'm going to give it a try til Easter (coinciding with everyone else giving up sugar for Lent seems like a good time) and see what happens.  So far, and it's very early on, it's a cautious thumbs up.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on February 10, 2013, 06:55:24 pm
Just a warning: I get *really* grumpy around 2 weeks in. You may want to warn your environment :D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 11, 2013, 11:01:08 am
Low carb bloggers seem to be paranoid about the level of beta hydroxybutyrate in their blood. This is one of the markers of ketosis (it's not actually a ketone, but everyone seems to forgive it for that), and authors of various keto books and blogs suggest you "need" a level of between 0.5 and 3.0 mMol/L to become "keto-adapted" - ie, able to subsist on ketones alone. If you are on a traditional high-carb diet, there will be bugger-all - 0.1mMol/L or less, because this stuff really really hates insulin.

Blood monitors are cheap (you use the same ones as diabetics use for glucose testing), but the test strips are bloody spendy, so I don't test often; the obsessives test at least once a day - I'm happy with once a week.

It turns out that getting a BoHB level above 0.5 can be quite elusive. Mine has lurked in this region, whereas boab seems to have taken to it much better, with levels of 1.4/1.7. I suspect she has much better control over hidden carbs than me.

For example, I drink tea. A lot of tea. I had forgotten to log the milk - which of course, has 6g/100ml of lactose. I was probably having close to 50g of lactose a day, just from milk in tea. So I'm in the process of testing tea with milk alternatives - currently almond milk. It seems OK - makes the tea taste a bit nutty (no shit, Sherlock?) but it's better than black tea. I could have coffee as I have it black, but I don't like decaff (it makes me fart) and there's a suggestion that caffeine can raise blood sugar, which in turn triggers insulin and BoHB runs for the hills.

The best way to make this work is to get carbs well down; certainly less than 50g per day, and possibly less than 25g "to be sure". You can still get useful amounts of veggies, salads and fibre in, within that budget - but it means you need to focus on fat for fuel, and those of us who've grown up and middle-aged in the "Fat is BAD!" era, have a lot of brainwashing to turn a blind eye to.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on February 12, 2013, 07:40:15 am
Also, 'paleo' does not necessarily mean no cake:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2384825/bananaBread.jpg)
(Banana bread)
Not entirely low-carb, as there's 2 bananas + 2 tablespoons of honey in it, but no grains (I used unsweetened coconut flour) and no dairy (Almond butter)...and very tasty!.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Glover Fan on February 12, 2013, 07:50:48 am
I have no care for this particular diet, but that cake seems awesome and perfect for carrying around on a ride. Might make some this Saturday!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on February 12, 2013, 09:07:39 am
It's:

Wet stuff:
2-3 mashed bananas
4 eggs
2 tablespoons of almond butter
2-4 tablespoons of honey or maple syrup. (I wouldn't go lower than 2, adjust upwards depending on how sweet you want it). If you really want to avoid the honey/syrup, you can try adding another banana and 1 more tablespoon of almond butter.
Vanilla extract.
Mix well. If you're clever (and not like me), you'll blitz the almond butter in the microwave for 30 secs first, which makes it way easier to mix it with the rest.

Dry Stuff:
1 cup of coconut flour
1/2 teaspoon of baking soda.
1 teaspoon of cocoa powder
A small handful of chopped nuts.
I wanted to use walnuts, but they'd been in the cupboard for a long time and smelt rather stale, so I used almonds instead.

Mix and then add in the wet stuff.
Put in baking tray of your choice and then in oven at 300F for 1:15.
Take out, rest for 15 mins.

I have also baked with almond flour, which is ok for savoury stuff (US style pancakes and savoury muffins), but prefer using coconut flour. A 50/50 mix will work if you want a more traditional texture.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 12, 2013, 09:54:16 am
Ooh... recipes. Cool!

I've been experimenting with faux breads. I've adapted a recipe I/boab (can't remember who) found at lowcarbfriends.com (lots of overly enthusiastic Americans over there, whose recipes talk in Cups and Sticks - visit at your peril!):

Almond flour - 70g
Eggses - 3
Olive Oil - 30ml
Milled flax seed - 2 Tsps
Baking Powder - 1.5 Tsp

Mix to a smooth batter with a stick blender. Pour into yorkshire pudding trays. Bake for 15 mins at 180C.

I've also experimented with cheesy versions, and my new favourite, Marmite & Cheese :)

Per Bun:
Carbs - 2g
Fat - 26g
Protein - 11g
Calories - 282

Ideal portable snack on an audax; very energy dense and easily digested - even by me with my egg issues.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8250/8467932972_5c7aa333c3.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40735552@N05/8467932972/)
Almond Rolls (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40735552@N05/8467932972/) by Pelotonhound (http://www.flickr.com/people/40735552@N05/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 12, 2013, 09:57:26 am
I've just remembered boab telling me my flapjacks had too much fat in them. I used to find them very good. :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 12, 2013, 10:21:24 am
I know some riders find fatty food on the bike a Real Problem - horror stories of audaxers parking their chips in the hedge soon after a control stop  :sick:.

I find the opposite - I seem to handle fatty food much better than carby food. I used to crave milk and Mars bars when riding, but satisfying that craving would trigger a couple of hours of unpleasant reflux. This doesn't seem to happen at all with fatty snacks - but TBH, there's much less need for them now anyway.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 12, 2013, 12:09:07 pm
I know some riders find fatty food on the bike a Real Problem - horror stories of audaxers parking their chips in the hedge soon after a control stop  :sick:.


Worst for that IME was the climb out of New Quay after lunch at the Mariners' Café on the Brevet Cymru...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on February 12, 2013, 12:14:58 pm
I've also experimented with cheesy versions, and my new favourite, Marmite & Cheese :)

I've tried the recipe myself (thanks Chris  :thumbsup:) and can confirm that it's incredibly simple. I can see that some might want to experiment as the olive oil taste of the basic recipe might not be to everyone's liking!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 12, 2013, 12:15:43 pm
I know some riders find fatty food on the bike a Real Problem - horror stories of audaxers parking their chips in the hedge soon after a control stop  :sick:.


Worst for that IME was the climb out of New Quay after lunch at the Mariners' Café on the Brevet Cymru...

Curiously enough, that's exactly the one I had in mind  :D.

ISTR hearing some retching noises coming from behind the hedge near the top, when I rode it!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 12, 2013, 12:21:12 pm
I've also experimented with cheesy versions, and my new favourite, Marmite & Cheese :)

I've tried the recipe myself (thanks Chris  :thumbsup:) and can confirm that it's incredibly simple. I can see that some might want to experiment as the olive oil taste of the basic recipe might not be to everyone's liking!

Yes indeed. I've pondered a sweeter, more cakey version with a small amount of 85% chocolate melted over the top, and using Coconut oil instead of Olive oil.

I need to be careful not to make them too often though - I find them quite moreish (not as deadly as boab's low-carb raspberry mini-cheesecakes, mind!) and as they're quite energy dense, it's easy to blow one's daily calorie allowance just eating almond rolls  :).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: tonyh on February 12, 2013, 12:25:30 pm
lunch at the Mariners' Café on the Brevet Cymru...

More like a late supper for me!  (sorry, off topic.Thanks for all the interesting posts.)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 12, 2013, 12:26:23 pm
I know some riders find fatty food on the bike a Real Problem - horror stories of audaxers parking their chips in the hedge soon after a control stop  :sick:.


Worst for that IME was the climb out of New Quay after lunch at the Mariners' Café on the Brevet Cymru...

Curiously enough, that's exactly the one I had in mind  :D.

ISTR hearing some retching noises coming from behind the hedge near the top, when I rode it!

I kept my lunch down; others did not.
I might have tried to limit my fat intake, which is a tad difficult at this sort of place...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 12, 2013, 02:54:26 pm
I've just remembered boab telling me my flapjacks had too much fat in them. I used to find them very good. :)
I know. I was just thinking about that the other day.
I'm still finding it very difficult to turn off the whole 'fat is bad' ethos.
Standard dietary advice is no more than 30% fat in your diet.
I'm currently eating about 150g a day- it's appalling.
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/fboab/fat.jpg)

Chris & I are taking somewhat different approaches- I'm trying to do without the 'bad stuff'- where he looks for alternatives.

Given my fondness for (double) cream and (a bucket of) mayonnaise, it's a bit easier to get calories than it might otherwise be.

We are still thinking about what to do for control food. It seems really churlish to strip sandwich contents and ask for extra cheese.
(Though we have already 'enjoyed' a McDinner out- 4 double cheeseburgers and a couple of sets of cutlery please  :facepalm: )
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 12, 2013, 04:52:20 pm
My diet has been (by calorie content) about 40% fat 40% carb and 20% protein when I've checked. I have never tried to eat a low fat diet.

That comes out as 77g fat, 155g carb, 77g protein for my estimaed BMR. And refined sugar should be no more than 10% of calories, which means no more than 10 cups of coffee a day.  :o
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: itsbruce on February 12, 2013, 06:22:27 pm

Diets don't work. All the research, on every kind of diet, shows that 5 years later the number of people who have kept the weight off is tiny. We lose weight, and we put it all back on. We put it all back on because the food is still there, and we're hungry. It's nice.


Aye, diet is the way you eat, not some temporary thing.  I lost 4 stone and have barely varied in weight since, because I eat the same way (with just a slightly larger intake) than I did when I began the process.  You need to find a way of eating (and the other lifestyle changes that go with it) which is sustainable, something you can live with permanently.  Dukan, Atkins and the like are all unsafe, unsustainable and mostly failures for the people who try them.

FWIW, I think most of the sustainable diet regimes have about as much science in them as the Book of Mormon (that goes in spades for "Paleo").  But since most of the challenge, truthfully, is mental, that doesn't really matter.  If it isn't actually harmful and it gives you a way of managing your eating, good luckl
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on February 15, 2013, 09:02:44 pm
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast  on audax day?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 15, 2013, 09:18:25 pm
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast  on audax day?

Same as any other day, really.

Berries & Double cream.
or
Ham & Cheese
or
Yogurt and berries or nut butter
or
Marmite on buttered Almond buns (perhaps toasted).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Julian on February 16, 2013, 06:58:55 pm
I've also experimented with cheesy versions, and my new favourite, Marmite & Cheese :)

I've tried the recipe myself (thanks Chris  :thumbsup:) and can confirm that it's incredibly simple. I can see that some might want to experiment as the olive oil taste of the basic recipe might not be to everyone's liking!

Would it work with butter instead of olive oil?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 16, 2013, 07:27:25 pm
Quite possibly. Or coconut oil?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on February 18, 2013, 08:03:48 pm
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast  on audax day?
I used to love cereal for breakfast and this was a big doubt in my ability to keep to the paleo diet. I now make Paleo Granola (http://paleomg.com/paleo-granola/) which is easy to make and very convenient to have in the morning or even taking in to work.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 18, 2013, 08:18:15 pm
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast  on audax day?
I used to love cereal for breakfast and this was a big doubt in my ability to keep to the paleo diet. I now make Paleo Granola (http://paleomg.com/paleo-granola/) which is easy to make and very convenient to have in the morning or even taking in to work.
That's a lot like the mix for our paleo bars we tried this weekend.

They were ming, unfortunately. Your granola has more sugar than I'm eating- honey and maple syrup.
Crumbled up bars are fine with yoghurt though.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on February 18, 2013, 10:11:34 pm
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast  on audax day?
I used to love cereal for breakfast and this was a big doubt in my ability to keep to the paleo diet. I now make Paleo Granola (http://paleomg.com/paleo-granola/) which is easy to make and very convenient to have in the morning or even taking in to work.

That's quite a lot of honey & syrup!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on February 19, 2013, 05:15:36 pm
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast  on audax day?
When I have an O*clock start - and inevitable get up at the very last minute - I often just grab a handful of peanuts. That seems to fuel me quite a long way, tastes nice, easily digested. Not as far as my preferred massive bowl of yog+muesli but still good.

(Nuts are OK, right? )



*oh f_ck it's early
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 19, 2013, 06:13:38 pm
Nuts are OK.

But peanuts are legumes.  ;)

Hell, anything's OK. Eat whatever you like.

Almonds- 546 kcal, 47g fat, 22g carb per 100g
Hazelnuts- 627kcal, 60g fat, 17g carb per 100g
Walnuts- 654kcal, 65g fat, 14g carb per 100g
Brazil nuts- 65kcal, 66g fat, 12g carb per 100g
Pecans- 760kcal, 79g fat, 15g carb per 100g
Macadamia nuts- 715kcal, 76g fat, 13g carb per 100g
Peanuts- 567kcal, 49g fat, 16.1g carb per 100g

We're eating a lot of nuts- snack food, ground up as a flour substitute, mixed with yoghurt/cream for pudding.

I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about the diet this week. I'm missing fruit and big wow, I can ride for hours without bonk, but the scales are not being rewarding. I've committed to six months of it though, so we'll see.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on February 19, 2013, 06:20:39 pm
Oh of course. And I expect Red Kites are actually fish </David Mitchell>

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 19, 2013, 06:40:25 pm
Yup, nuts are fine.

Sadly, peanuts aren't nuts - but a decent breakfast nevertheless  :). Not allowed on Keto.

ETA: Bugger - beaten to it by The Boss.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hulver on February 20, 2013, 09:25:18 am
I decided to give this diet a try. Fuelling on longer rides is something that I've never managed to do right. I read The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0983490716/) and it persuaded me to give it a try.

I'm going to stick at it for at least 3 months.

The initial results have been impressive. I've been on it for about 3 weeks now, and lost about 4.5kg so far. I expected quite a lot of initial loss as from what I've read, the body holds less water while you're eating like this. I seem to have stabilised at about 0.5kg per week now.

Snacking on nuts, and eating lots of cheese. I do need to find more variety though. I'm getting a bit bored of cheese and salad.

I also need to monitor my protein intake as well, as I think I'm eating too much meat at the moment.

My appetite is way down, I don't feel the highs and lows like I did eating carbs. I can eat till I'm full, and not be hungry again a few hours later. I bought some nuts to snack on when I first started, as I used to be constantly stuffing my face at work. The amount I bought to last a week is still not finished after 3 weeks. I just don't feel the need.

My biggest problem so far, is lack of energy. I'm unfit after winter anyway, and having got back on the bike again it feels like I'm permanently bonked. Cold and lack of time is limiting my distance right now (I'm not hardcore like some of you) and the most I've managed is 15km ish. That was due to lack of time though, not lack of energy.

I'm just not enjoying it very much, as I feel so "meh" while I'm riding my bike.

I'm going to stick at it though, hopefully I can train through this and improve my fitness. I think it would be a lot easier if you were already fit before starting on this diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 20, 2013, 10:29:40 am
Excellent! I hope it works out for you.

The lack of oomph will fade slowly, and you should get your energy back fairly soon. Don't forget the sodium thing - it really makes a difference; I have a mug of bouillon for elevenses every day. Drink plenty of water.

Getting the protein level right is key. I'm aiming for about 100g a day, which is about 1.5g/Kg of LBM. I keep carbs under 50g every day, and under 30g most days. The rest of my food comes from fat. This isn't as hard as it sounds - here's what I had yesterday:

Breakfast - Strawberries & double cream.

Lunch - chicken breast, ham, cheese, salad with oily dressing, low-carb brownie.

Tea - Low carb cottage pie, green beans, yogurt.

Snacks - Handful of Almonds, handful of Macadamia nuts

Beverages - "Bullet proof coffee" (Coffee with cream and added Coconut Oil), Bouillon, Green tea
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on February 27, 2013, 09:35:29 am
I have seen the future, and it is... Kippers for breakfast.

Back in the day I used to travel on business by train, I'd always breakfast on the train (the poor man's first class ticket), and have Kippers and lashings of jammy toast and tea. Perfect.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 27, 2013, 01:32:42 pm
I have seen the future, and it is... Kippers for breakfast.

Back in the day I used to travel on business by train, I'd always breakfast on the train (the poor man's first class ticket), and have Kippers and lashings of jammy toast and tea. Perfect.
Sorry. Toast & jam is a BIG no-no.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Julian on February 27, 2013, 02:05:06 pm
Kippers on the train? You've a stronger stomach than I have! :sick:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on February 27, 2013, 02:30:19 pm
Kippers on the train?

Wasn't that a film?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Julian on February 27, 2013, 02:31:26 pm
It would certainly have been scarier than Snakes on a Plane.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 27, 2013, 10:05:24 pm
With carbo-loaded star, Barley Granger (before he played Nelson... )
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: itsbruce on February 28, 2013, 07:05:14 pm
I have seen the future, and it is... Kippers for breakfast.

Back in the day I used to travel on business by train, I'd always breakfast on the train (the poor man's first class ticket), and have Kippers and lashings of jammy toast and tea. Perfect.

Kippers do make a fine breakfast. I mostly do porridge, but occasionally poach a smoked haddock in milk (and drink the milk used, of course). On a haddock morning, though, I never have as much energy for the commute as I get from porridge; the haddock is all protein and very little else. Kippers, otoh, pack a healthy dose of fat.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 06, 2013, 04:44:21 pm
Interesting summary of some of the arguments for a Keto diet, with lots of citations for your late night reading :).

http://www.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-nutrition-and-wellness/volume-4-number-2/arguments-in-favor-of-ketogenic-diets.html#sthash.3K27H8Kl.cj07uWUf.dpbs
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on March 15, 2013, 02:07:42 pm
I have seen the future -  Sugar Snaps (Mange-tout to you), the ultimate snack food.

Not doing my carbon footprint much good though; Sainsburys import from Guatemala!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hulver on March 15, 2013, 03:24:21 pm
Presuming I last on this diet until LEL, I'm wondering what on earth I'll eat during the ride.

Considering that most of the food available at controls will be rather carb heavy, might it be a question of bouncing the controls and consuming other food on the journey instead?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mcshroom on March 15, 2013, 03:28:40 pm
LEL on cream, peperami and babybels ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on March 15, 2013, 03:38:24 pm
Presuming I last on this diet until LEL, I'm wondering what on earth I'll eat during the ride.

Considering that most of the food available at controls will be rather carb heavy, might it be a question of bouncing the controls and consuming other food on the journey instead?
We were thinking the same. We've paid upfront for an all in ride, where we'll want to sleep off route and can't don't eat most of what's supplied.  :facepalm:

Babybels ftw.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: itsbruce on March 15, 2013, 03:45:49 pm
Nuts.  Amazing wee storehouses of nutrients, very calorie dense.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 15, 2013, 04:29:13 pm
Funny this should come up now.

Tomorrow, we are riding the Up the Uts 200 from Henham; which is known for its audaxy catering (the 200 consists of three loops, returning to base each time for more carb-loading).

I'm considering an experiment; essentially - eat as I would normally have done; so embrace the Apple Pie and Custard, and wallow in the Beans on Toast. And then see what happens to my keto-state. Will it break my ketosis, or will the fact that I'm exercising soak up all the insulin/glycogen, with the resumption of ketosis soon after we've finished?

The most worrying condition would be - that ketone production is suspended when the carbs go in (this is inevitable, ketone production is always 2nd to glucose management, because high blood glucose is a toxic state that the body has to deal with by releasing insulin - and that insulin in turn blocks mobilisation of stored fat and ketone production) and I'm left with no bloody energy at all, having "trained" my body to burn ketones, during the last three months.

It's a worthwhile experiment, I think. So - I'll test my blood ketone levels first thing tomorrow, after the ride, and then again Sunday morning - and beyond if ketosis is completely broken, to see how long it takes to re-establish.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hulver on March 15, 2013, 04:36:43 pm
I'm considering an experiment; essentially - eat as I would normally have done; so embrace the Apple Pie and Custard, and wallow in the Beans on Toast. And then see what happens to my keto-state. Will it break my ketosis, or will the fact that I'm exercising soak up all the insulin/glycogen, with the resumption of ketosis soon after we've finished?

Good luck!

I'm mainly thinking of the chances of you surviving while tucking into cake in front of boab if she's not having any ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 15, 2013, 04:40:50 pm
I'm considering an experiment; essentially - eat as I would normally have done; so embrace the Apple Pie and Custard, and wallow in the Beans on Toast. And then see what happens to my keto-state. Will it break my ketosis, or will the fact that I'm exercising soak up all the insulin/glycogen, with the resumption of ketosis soon after we've finished?

Good luck!

I'm mainly thinking of the chances of you surving while tucking into cake in front of boab if she's not having any ;D

Cake would indeed be a shortcut to bruises, I suspect. Thankfully, she doesn't like apple pie and custard, or beans - so those are safe options  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on March 15, 2013, 05:32:25 pm
Nuts.  Amazing wee storehouses of nutrients, very calorie dense.

Sorry? I thought there were no 'superfoods'? ;) ;)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: velovoice on March 15, 2013, 06:15:52 pm
...then see what happens to my keto-state. Will it break my ketosis, or will the fact that I'm exercising soak up all the insulin/glycogen, with the resumption of ketosis soon after we've finished?.
As a fellow keto-adapted cyclist... DON'T DO IT! 

Eating more carbs than your tolerance level WILL break ketosis. There is no such thing as "soaking up all the insulin/glycogen" i.e. as a temporary/emergency mode of operation. Okay, sure, you may get back into ketosis fairly quickly once you resume a low-carb diet (after finishing the audax), but you'll have the whole re-adaptation to the ketogenic state to do all over again. It takes just as long the second (or third...) time as it did the first time. No short cuts.  For instance, you'll lose that top end again... plus have to endure whatever other niggles you had while adjusting the first time.

This is well covered in Volek & Phinney's follow-up book "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance".

Just sayin'. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 15, 2013, 09:50:39 pm
Wow! Another Ketonaut  :thumbsup:.

I was tempted to try relaxing the carb restriction, on the basis of those who do TKD (Targeted Keto Diet). The only information out there about TKD seems to be for weight-lifters who are missing their top-ends without some extra carbs around workout time - but they seem to be able to up the carb intake without unduly disturbing their ketosis - but one wonders how much they are "keto-adapted" for endurance work.

I'll see how I feel tomorrow - but I certainly don't want to break my adaptation as gaining it was hard fought, so perhaps I need to stick with it after all.

All of which means - yes, food at controls is (on the face of it) limited. "Cheese & Bacon please..."
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on March 16, 2013, 07:24:06 pm
The 'Paleo for Athletes' book says that you should eat Paleo except immediately before, during and after exercise when it's ok to eat carbs.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 16, 2013, 10:15:35 pm
Well, in the end - between loops two and three (150km done, 50 to do) - I had a craving for Apple Pie & Custard, so I went for it.

Apart from a bit of indigestion after (probably related to the climb immediately after) all was fine.

Blood ketones before the ride: 0.4mmol (so only just "in ketosis"). When I got home from the ride, it was 2.9mmol which is pretty high, and a good sign. ETA: Sunday a.m.: 1.2mmol  :thumbsup:

Lets hope that one dose of carbs like that is OK.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: PloddinPedro on March 17, 2013, 09:41:58 pm
...... Blood ketones before the ride: 0.4mmol (so only just "in ketosis"). When I got home from the ride, it was 2.9mmol which is pretty high, and a good sign. ETA: Sunday a.m.: 1.2mmol  :thumbsup:
Chris - how exactly are you measuring your ketones - are you doing the pricking-your-finger thing?

And from the 'Uts thread .....
VAM: 344. Rubbish.

Out of interest, what do you think is good?

Well, we did 526 on the same ride last year
What, pray, does "VAM" refer to?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 17, 2013, 10:11:14 pm
...... Blood ketones before the ride: 0.4mmol (so only just "in ketosis"). When I got home from the ride, it was 2.9mmol which is pretty high, and a good sign. ETA: Sunday a.m.: 1.2mmol  :thumbsup:
Chris - how exactly are you measuring your ketones - are you doing the pricking-your-finger thing?

There are two ways to measure ketones at home. Method 1: Ketostix (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ketostix-Reagent-Strips-Ketone-strips/dp/B000V3IV3O) + Wee. Ketostix provide a colour-test for Acetyl-Acetone (AcAc) in the urine. AcAc is one of the ketones produced by the liver from stored fat, when you are in a ketogenic state. Presence in the urine shows that AcAc is being produced in excess, so is being dumped by the kidneys. Absence of AcAc does not necessarily mean you are not in a ketogenic state - just that (for some reason) there isn't an excess to be dumped. For this reason, they are considered to be a less accurate measure of ketosis.

Method 2: Ketone strips in conjunction with a Blood monitor such as this: Clickity (http://www.abbottdiabetescare.co.uk/your-products/freestyle-optium). These are used by diabetics for testing for ketones, and also blood sugar when using glucose test strips. These test for Beta-hydroxybutyrate, one of the other forms of ketones the body uses for fuel when operating in a low-carb state (eg: starvation, unavailable carbs).

The latter method is deemed to be the most accurate. A value of between 0.5 mmol/ltr and 3.0 mmol/ltr is deemed to be a measure of ketosis. If you maintain levels in this range, and you're not compromised in terms of energy (in fact, you'll probably feel "full of beans") then you are said to be "keto-adapted", a phrase used by messers Volek and Phinney in their book, referenced in several places in this thread. Basically this means your body (including most of the brain function) has adapted to using ketones for fuel, instead of glucose.

And from the 'Uts thread .....
VAM: 344. Rubbish.
What, pray, does "VAM" refer to?

A direct translation of "velocità ascensionale media" is "mean (average) ascent velocity" leading to an expansion of the acronym in English as Velocity, Ascent, Mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_ascent_velocity
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: PloddinPedro on March 18, 2013, 01:42:45 pm
............There are two ways to measure ketones at home. .....
I guess you're doing the latter then; OK if you can tolerate needles!

I've been lurking on this thread since the start and read Gary Taube's book with interest (thanks Lindsay - I think!) and then followed it up with Volek  & Phinney. I've only skimmed them really and a lot of the science bits are way above my head. But I don't remember reading anywhere that even a small lapse back into carbs would necessarily put you right back to square one with the keto-adaptation, at least once you're past the initial induction phase.

To start with, I read the books hoping there's be some explanation (other than that carbs are "toxic") as to why calorie restriction just didn't work. All my experience (pretty typical) has been that however long I manage to restrict total calories in, all that happens is that my body stubbornly slows down; it doesn't switch to using fat stores and reducing body fat percentage. I fell into the classic trap a few years ago of cutting calories and increasing my exercise and I did indeed lose weight; but I also lost strength and didn't go any faster on the bike. Hence the "Ploddin" bit. Since then I've steadily regained the weight, all in the form of body blubber and consequently am more "Ploddin" than ever!

This season's good resolutions are to focus more on specific strength building - I might even resort to (look away now) "training"! But I thought I might give the low carb option a go as well. None of what I've what I've read is actually explicit, but it seems that it's still a calorie restricted regime. At least compared with what I'd normally eat (which I freely admit, is where most of my problem lies!).

However, I haven't seen anything which explains why the body, when subjected to tactics designed to make it give up stored body fat, will refuse to do so if it's general calories being restricted but will comply when it's only carbs being restricted.

I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)



A direct translation of "velocità ascensionale media" is "mean (average) ascent velocity" leading to an expansion of the acronym in English as Velocity, Ascent, Mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_ascent_velocity
You live and learn - fascinating. I should have made the connection, having read about the infamous Dr. Ferrari and his hill tests. That'll be yet another self-evaluation tool I'll be avoiding using - there's only so much humiliation a fellow can stand!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on March 18, 2013, 02:17:03 pm
I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)
I think I'm in that category too, PP. We committed to this for 3 months and that's just about up, and having lost a bit in the first couple or three weeks, since then I've lost nothing, and my weight graphs give a really pretty pattern of water retention through the week:
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/fboab/th_Libra_2013-03-18.png)
The dips are pre-audax, not post.
I've been pretty demoralised about it, but, the big win for me is hunger management. Here we are post-audax, traditionally Teh Hunger Zone and I haven't eaten the entire contents of my shelves.
I've stopped counting calories/carbs/exercise as it was just making me miserable- whatever my supposed deficit it made/makes no difference on the scale. Bollocks to that.
I suppose I'm looking for a way of eating where my weight is managed without willpower, and unless I ride about 100k/day I don't think I'll ever find it. Willpower is a really bad way of doing anything; it's tiring and doomed to failure.
In the meantime, I'll stay at 85kg and eat whatever I fancy- as long as it doesn't have carbs- and at least I won't feel too deprived?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 18, 2013, 04:43:49 pm
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity (http://primalnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/keto-adaptation-vs-low-carb-limbo.html).

Keto-adaptation refers to quite a fragile state that is highly sensitive to interruption from the carb/insulin metabolic cycle - and once interrupted, takes a few days to re-establish.

I'm guessing if you really struggled to get keto-adapted in the first place, then getting knocked back for another spell of adaptation is not desirable.

I think I'm only just flirting with proper nutritional ketosis; my pre-ride ketone level of 0.4mmol was outside the prescribed range as suggested by Volek & Phinney (0.5 to 3.0 being the "right" range).

Need to keep an eagle eye for hidden carbs.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on March 18, 2013, 04:59:07 pm
I don't think weight loss and audax are easy bed fellows. Precisely because of the post-ride munchies. If a low carb (or rather high fat & protein) diet can resolve that then I'm interested.

Yes, yes, I acknowledge many people have lost pounds through cycling but suggest that's usually in conjunction with a calorie reduced diet - and darned good will power!

Last week, I ordered the Volek book mentioned upstream. Should be here Weds. I'll read with great interest what they have to say.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: PloddinPedro on March 18, 2013, 10:03:19 pm
I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)
I think I'm in that category too, PP. We committed to this for 3 months and that's just about up, .........

I can't really comment, other than to sympathise, because I haven't properly tried it yet and made it work. I'm rather hanging my hopes on the thought that it might work for me but I should expect it to take a lot longer than someone who's younger/ more athletic/just different. After all if it's taken me 25 years to train my body "bad" I can hardly expect to turn it around in "five minutes" i.e. i'm expecting it to take many, many months if it works at all. It's bloody annoying though when other people seem to get great results overnight, but that's a commonly reported feature of any "diet that works"!

One of the things that puts me off though is the difficulty of handling the "out to the restaurant with Mrs PP for a treat" and the thought of doing without BEER! And food on the Audax is a problem, as Chris discussed elsewhere.

Ho hum.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: PloddinPedro on March 18, 2013, 10:08:26 pm
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity (http://primalnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/keto-adaptation-vs-low-carb-limbo.html).
Crikey, yes - scary!

Quite a lot to digest in there though - I'll need to read that another time - I need to go prepare the bike now!

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on March 19, 2013, 06:52:46 pm
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity (http://primalnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/keto-adaptation-vs-low-carb-limbo.html).

A very plausible post, I thought, but then again, I'm gullible. Happily I'm also weak willed, so whilst I believe it I don't do it.

Anyway Mr Primal said it's not for athletes such as myself.*

Edit: * i.e., doing regular HIT sessions. His view is that a ketogenic diet is generally glycogen sparing as the body adapts to burn ketones rather than glycogen, saving glyocgen as a top fuel along with ATP called on during periods of intense activity.

However if the athlete is undertaking regular (daily) HIT sessions, glycogen stores will be depleted faster than they can be replenished by gluconeogenesis, whilst a plate of pasta will take you straight back to carb burning mode.

On this basis, it occurs to me that whilst a ketogenic diet might suit geared riders (or fixers in flatland) who are in a position to manage their power output/heart rate, the diet isn't for fixers surrounded by the Chilterns and the Surrey Hills who spend a significant amount of time above their aerobic threshold. That's just a suppostition though.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 03, 2013, 09:21:25 pm
Those who are testing their ketones..... Has it taken pretty much dropping carbs totally to get there or is 'lower carb' getting you there.

I've got the sports science degree, I'm a nutritionist blablabla but I obviously don't believe the traditional stuff works for everyone any more. Exercise yes, diet, no. The 'normal' scientific principles just Do Not Work for me.

I don't really eat many carbs after my porridge for breakfast apart from fruit and veg. I don't eat stuff like bread, potatoes and pasta. I guess I'm wondering if I drop the porridge as well, and all my carbs come from fruit/veg, would I avoid ketosis as I'm still having some? (I don't want to go into ketosis but want to drop carbs)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on April 03, 2013, 10:12:05 pm
Erm - it sounds like you know more about this than me!

My understanding is this. The more you restrict carbs, the more your body adjusts to burn fat instead. This leads to generation of ketones. You enter "ketosis". Hell - this can happen overnight - most carb-burners are in some level of ketosis (maybe not measurable) by morning, after a night's sleep.

TBH I have no idea what my ketone level was on my previous diet. On the restricted diet I've been on, there have been measurable ketones in my wee and blood. If I'm very restricted - the amount in my blood is quite high. Probably if I kept this up for weeks (probably a couple of months), my body would adapt to burning these ketones as a default fuel source - in almost complete replacement for a glycogen-based existence.

Everything I've read (which is by no means definitive) suggests, none of this is a good idea if you have kidney issues. If you are already under medical care - I'd discuss it with them.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Lady Cavendish on April 03, 2013, 10:19:37 pm
I've thought about discussing it with them...... I know the answer they will give though ;) In the same way they think 'occasional gentle exercise' might do me good ;)

Oh I'm just frustrated and want to try sonething new.....but I realise I can't let things get quite high, so can't totally restrict carbs.... But I guess it's working out how much I can restrict them, or what to take out where.....I've just downloaded that why we get fat book, so will have a butchers....
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on April 04, 2013, 07:41:49 am
Time for a three month review.

Boab and I gave the keto diet a shot to (a) lose some lard, and (b) enter some kind of "bonk proof" energy state.

For me - it has been a 100% success, Boab less so in the weightloss department. Here's a summary of my experience:

Pros:
Steady energy flow all day.
No need for bonk rations on audaxes. In fact, food for fuel is a complete non-issue on rides. This for me is the biggie.
Fat loss (for me, at least), with not much loss of lean mass.
Improved digestive health (this took a while - I was bunged up at first, but that phase passes [sic]).
Lower blood pressure.
Improved appetite management

Cons:
Inconvenient. Cafes, and audax controls don't understand low-carb, and why should they?
I sometimes miss certain foods.
No Beer  :(

My plan is to stick with it, with some minor changes. I'll keep general day to day carbs <50g; it's not hard to do, and it maintains the "fat for fuel default state". On audax rides, I'll probably be less strict about carbs. I've not noticed any disturbance in the force when I've upped the carbs on recent rides, although it's by no means carte blanche to eat cake and sweeties.

I suspect I'm not really in that magic state that Volek and Phinney describe, which is an extreme glycogen sparing state. Getting blood ketones high enough for long enough for that, takes a lot of dedication - and daily carbs of <30g. I'll leave that to the likes of Jimmy Moore and Peter Attia.
But keeping carbs <50g most of the time seems to be enough to ensure I burn fat for fuel, nearly all the time - even when riding, and that's good enough for me, I think.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on April 04, 2013, 09:49:19 am
For me - it has been a partial success, initial weightloss in January but nothing in February or March.
My experience:

Pros:
Steady energy flow all day.
No need for bonk rations on audaxes. In fact, food for fuel is a complete non-issue on rides.
Improved appetite management: An end to feeling at the mercy of food. I might have lost more weight on DrMekon's porridge & apples plan, but the cost was very high. I didn't lose at the predicted rate, and what felt like constant deprivation led to more obsession with food. I looked forward to audax days so I could eat things I liked.
Currently, I can forget about food for hours at a time. I can eat only at mealtimes and be fine with that, whatever I'm doing. Keeping under 2,000 calories eaten is easy. I eat breakfast, or not. I can skip breakfast, lunch, or tea, if I'm not hungry, and sometimes I'm not hungry  :o. There's no compensatory eating later if I do eat less at a meal.

Cons:
Inconvenient. Cafes, and audax (village hall type) controls don't understand low-carb, and why should they?
I sometimes miss certain foods. Fruit, mostly.

I generally eat more protein than is recommended and this is probably a contributory factor to the lack-of-weightloss, but I can't bring myself to eat cream or butter rather than cheese. The bodybuilders reckon you need more protein if you're to build muscle and lose fat, and I'd rather do that than not. :shrug:
I also have the slowest metabolism in the world- me & the Galapogas Giant Tortoises, and I'm starting to wonder if there's anything I could do to attain the weightloss that should be theoretically possible given the calories in/calories out I process.
I'll be sticking to it for the foreseeable. Doing without cake, biscuits and bread is much easier than you think it'll be. And alcohol hasn't been a regular feature of my diet for years, so I barely notice that's gone.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on April 04, 2013, 08:44:34 pm
This whole process has been most enlightening. 

My girlfriend Rebecca (vintagesteel) started doing a ketogenic diet last November, having suffered with IBS all her life and wanting to try something to lose a bit of weight.  Since dropping the carbs, her IBS issues have gone away.  This tends to vindicate the Volek & Phinney theory that a large proportion of the population are to a greater or lesser extent, carbohydrate intolerant.  She's lost quite a bit of weight but like fboab seems to have reached a plateau at the moment, but it's possible her daily intake of carbs needs to be lowered more.

About 3 years ago, despite a lot of cycling, my weight had gone up to 85kg, and after calorie counting (ie smaller portions and reducing the numbers of cakes and biscuits), I'd slowly got it down to around 78 kg, but couldn't really get it any lower, and I still had a bit of a beer gut.  Having read the original Atkins book and then the Art & Science of low carb living, I could understand the principle behind it, if not all of the science.  Having seen the benefits from Rebecca's experience, on 1st March I started following a low carb diet as well.  Within 2 weeks I'd lost 4 kg, but as Chris mentioned above, noticed a distinct lack of "oomph", and definitely felt I'd lost a good 20-25% of top end energy when cycling.

In the last couple of weeks, I'd say I've got almost all of that energy back, and certainly on last week's Felpham FNRttC, I didn't have any issue with zooming along at the front, and the hills weren't an issue at all.  My weight is now around 73 kg and I've had to buy new shirts and trousers.

In the past, I'd be starving hungry by 11 am and have to have my lunch.  Similarly I'd have to have food again by the end of the afternoon.  Now, I just don't have those peaks and troughs of needing to stuff my face. 

It really is quite weird, but does show just how addictive carbs/sugar are.  Whilst those on a modern carbohydrate rich diet have to watch their fat intake and calorie count; on a ketogenic diet, it's so much simpler.  The body has plenty of reserves of fat to run on if your stomach is empty, rather than having to rely on the artificial high produced by carbs.  Another minor benefit is a reduction in the use of toilet paper, seeing as there's less throughput!  So it's good for the trees as well.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on April 04, 2013, 09:07:01 pm
To me, it feels like I have a flywheel inside - providing a steady flow of energy. It's still quite hard to wind it up high, so I still puff and pant when cycling up hill, but for long distance steady riding, it's brilliant. Hunger is no longer an imperative - it's a gentle reminder, and when I eat - it just gives the spinning flywheel a renewed tweak. If I don't eat, it's no disaster - even after 100km of audax-pace riding.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: velovoice on April 07, 2013, 08:09:09 pm
I've only just seen Adam's contribution to this thread and am mulling over what more I could usefully add about my own experience.

I see that a lot of the questions that have popped up in the past week are about (a) keto-adaptation and/or (b) how you adjust carb intake (and/or ratio to fat intake) when you have a specific time-restricted need for substantially more energy e.g. doing an audax.

These are dealt with in Volek & Phinney's follow-up book THE ART AND SCIENCE OF LOW CARBOHYDRATE PERFORMANCE (which I'll refer to as "PERFORMANCE"). I'm only about half way through PERFORMANCE but finding it's well worth the read. It takes a very different approach to explaining things from THE ART AND SCIENCE OF LOW CARBOHYDRATE LIVING ("LIVING") - in some ways much clearer and more direct. Definitely targets the specific 'how do I..? and "what if...?" questions of "athletes" (a category into which, for this purpose, all of us here fall, as compared to the general population!)

For those who have been skimming LIVING and finding (expecting?) that the science is going over their heads, so posting questions here...  go back and try to understand as much of the science as you can, because getting answers firsthand is always more accurate and reliable than putting it out there to people who, just like you, haven't got a 100% handle on it themselves*. And a lot of the answers are there in the book(s).

On second thought, if you're struggling with the explanations in LIVING, it might be worthwhile putting that aside for now and reading PERFORMANCE to see if that book gives you enough understanding of the hows and whys to enable you to give the regime a fair trial.

*My background is in the law, not science, so I say this in full acknowledgement that a LOT of the science is way over my head, too! :p
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: velovoice on April 07, 2013, 08:32:09 pm
The 'Paleo for Athletes' book says that you should eat Paleo except immediately before, during and after exercise when it's ok to eat carbs.

The Paleo principles are very different to Volek & Phinney, who came to their book having reached the conclusion from multiple studies that some people simply do not tolerate carbohydrates, in much the same way as some people are lactose intolerant, glucose intolerant, etc.  For people who are carbohydrate intolerant (and studies strongly suggest that's a significant part of the population, even some athletes), allowing themselves more carbs at any particular time, e.g. before, during and/or after strenuous exercise, is not only unnecessary but counter-productive, indeed potentially harmful.

As for keto-adaptation, this is not the same as being 'in ketosis' (measurable as Chris described above).  Keto-adaptation takes at least (i.e. minimum) of 2 weeks and refers to a complete readjustment to how organs of the body work, including but not limited to fuel partitioning. One of the key things here is the fuel your brain runs on - which (not glycogen depletion) is at the crux of whether and when and how you might "bonk".  In fact, the second book on PERFORMANCE is all about exactly that: avoiding The Bonk.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: velovoice on April 07, 2013, 09:24:06 pm
Pros:
Steady energy flow all day.
No need for bonk rations on audaxes. In fact, food for fuel is a complete non-issue on rides.
Improved appetite management: An end to feeling at the mercy of food.
Currently, I can forget about food for hours at a time. I can eat only at mealtimes and be fine with that, whatever I'm doing. Keeping under 2,000 calories eaten is easy. I eat breakfast, or not. I can skip breakfast, lunch, or tea, if I'm not hungry, and sometimes I'm not hungry  :o. There's no compensatory eating later if I do eat less at a meal.
+1

I generally eat more protein than is recommended and this is probably a contributory factor to the lack-of-weightloss, but I can't bring myself to eat cream or butter rather than cheese. The bodybuilders reckon you need more protein if you're to build muscle and lose fat, and I'd rather do that than not. :shrug:
I also have the slowest metabolism in the world- me & the Galapogas Giant Tortoises, and I'm starting to wonder if there's anything I could do to attain the weightloss that should be theoretically possible given the calories in/calories out I process.
I'll be sticking to it for the foreseeable. Doing without cake, biscuits and bread is much easier than you think it'll be. And alcohol hasn't been a regular feature of my diet for years, so I barely notice that's gone.
I hear you. My experience though is that FAT is the key to success. Avoiding things like cream and butter may be closing a door that, if open, could kick-start and maintain your weight loss?

So. My personal experience with this.

November 2012 onwards is the third sustained period of low-carb eating that I've done in the past 15 years. Every time, my debilitating (and I do mean debilitating) IBS symptoms just melt away.

The first time (1999-2000), I went from 11.5 stone to 9.5 stone with absolutely no exercise - I was working full time and studying for a degree and had no time for or interest in doing anything that might involve sweating (eeugh!). Then I got married... to a controlling sort of man who was a body builder... and I decided to "learn to cook". In 6 months I put all the weight back on and was a complete mess.

The second time (2009-2010, I was a cycling fool and did lose weight (from 12.5 stone to about 11) but I wasn't really serious about eating low-carb for the long term. 

The third time (as Adam said, from last November) followed 6 months of absolute IBS HELL. I was desperate to stop it. Had all sorts of hospital tests done. Tried a number of different pills and special diets. In the end though, I knew from experience that low carb had worked in the past -- not just helped, but stopped it dead -- so, in the face of my GP's initial protestations, I decided to go back to low carb eating. 

It had been so long since I'd read anything properly serious about low carb diets, I decided to go back to basics. I read the last edition of Atkins' New Diet Revolution, which was written after Dr Atkins' death by a team of 3 doctors, 2 of whom were Volek & Phinney. I noticed a definite shift in emphasis on a number of key principles from the 1999 edition of that book, so I set off on some Internet searching that quickly led to Volek & Phinney's LIVING book. Worth mentioning that by this time I had already been on a low carb diet for several weeks and feeling much better but was starting to wonder how this was going to work (what to eat? how much? when?) once I started up again with long rides in the spring.  LIVING gave me a pretty good inkling of what the answer might be -- and PERFORMANCE confirmed it. It's all, as someone said up-thread, remarkably simple. And much EASIER to do than all the carb loading and glycogen-depletion-avoidance techniques as per "accepted wisdom".

I have to say, I don't feel "full of beans" as Chris describes. I do remember feeling that way the first time I was on the Atkins diet. On the other hand, I am now so much more active than I was then. And I've learned I can count on the energy I need being there when I need it. Every time I'm confronted with a need for extra/more energy, even at short notice (e.g. coming round a corner to be confronted with a bl**dy great mountain!), the energy I need is somehow there. I don't know if I've ever had a "top end"! But I am a much better climber this year than I was last year... a lot more power in  my legs and a lot less huffing and puffing. Having lost some weight will have helped that, but I know that it's my body's more efficient way of using fuel -- the right fuel -- that makes it happen.

Like fboab, there are foods I miss. I allow myself occasional very small portions of mash potato. And ice cream. I could miss fruit if I let myself but it *always* triggers an IBS symptom of one kind or another, to a greater or lesser degree, and the thought of that is enough to keep me honest!  The only food I get honest to God cravings for is chocolate but I've realised these are completely emotional cravings, not at all physical, so I have decided to avoid chocolate altogether. Completely teetotal. Best that way.

Hope this is of some help to someone.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: velovoice on April 07, 2013, 09:31:04 pm
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity (http://primalnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/keto-adaptation-vs-low-carb-limbo.html).

First I've seen of that link.

He says up front that what he says is based on his own experience and opinion - he has no idea if medical studies/science would back him up. For that, I give him fair dues. But based on my experience (and opinions based on that), I disagree with most, if not all, of what he says! Not that I'm more right or less wrong -- but I'd prefer he directed his readers to some real science.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hulver on April 08, 2013, 01:21:55 pm
I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)
I think I'm in that category too, PP. We committed to this for 3 months and that's just about up, and having lost a bit in the first couple or three weeks, since then I've lost nothing, and my weight graphs give a really pretty pattern of water retention through the week:
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/fboab/th_Libra_2013-03-18.png)
The dips are pre-audax, not post.
I've been pretty demoralised about it, but, the big win for me is hunger management. Here we are post-audax, traditionally Teh Hunger Zone and I haven't eaten the entire contents of my shelves.
I've stopped counting calories/carbs/exercise as it was just making me miserable- whatever my supposed deficit it made/makes no difference on the scale. Bollocks to that.
I suppose I'm looking for a way of eating where my weight is managed without willpower, and unless I ride about 100k/day I don't think I'll ever find it. Willpower is a really bad way of doing anything; it's tiring and doomed to failure.
In the meantime, I'll stay at 85kg and eat whatever I fancy- as long as it doesn't have carbs- and at least I won't feel too deprived?

Don't get too demoralised. Look at the trend line on the yacf graphs, and yours is firmly pointing down.

http://www.simonproven.me.uk/yacf-weight-graphs/yacf-weights-BMI-graph.0.png
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on April 08, 2013, 02:59:32 pm

Don't get too demoralised. Look at the trend line on the yacf graphs, and yours is firmly pointing down.

http://www.simonproven.me.uk/yacf-weight-graphs/yacf-weights-BMI-graph.0.png
I was losing weight before Christmas, and in January but not in Feb & March. My graphs have more data points than Simon's, so it's more obvious that the trend is only because of Dec & Jan. I appear to be losing again now, but we'll see.
This current weightloss can probably be attributed to coming off antidepressants, the doc said it would take 6 weeks to have any effect on my weight, and it is now 6 weeks.
Unfortunately I'm vile(r) and (more)intolerant and (even more) fucking miserable so will probably have to go back on them. Chris isn't that devoted.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on April 08, 2013, 03:32:56 pm
The ironic thing about your diet is that it is close (ignoring the red meat bit) to what I was recommended to eat by a dietitian, 17 years ago.

I was ill, IBS, struggling to keep weight on (I struggled to keep my weight above 62kg, which is 11kg lower than my weight now). Dietitian recommended as much butter, cream, protein as I could stomach. Cream with some fruit and nuts for breakfast. Slabs of cheese and butter.  etc.

It did sort of work - my weight settled just about 70kg and stabilized, no matter how much exercise I did.

The saturated fats have had to go, due to suddenly raised cholesterol levels. I have to say, I'm a bit struggling to eat and stay 'full'.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hulver on April 15, 2013, 02:01:34 pm
My fiancée has joined me in this diet, and is starting to wish she'd waited. She's lost so much weight that the wedding dress she was fitted for no longer fits, and needed to be adjusted again.

She's had to introduce some carbs back into her diet again to try and maintain her current weight, so that the dress will still fit in 3 weeks time.

And she's hating being back on the carbs again. She feels so hungry, it was something that had gone away while on the keto diet, and wasn't missed.

She'll be back on it again as soon as the Wedding is over :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on April 15, 2013, 06:19:23 pm
More anecdata from the World of Audax.

I was forced at gunpoint ate a substantial slice of Coffee & Walnut cake at the half way point on Saturday's ride; it was all that was available on the "Cyclists Deal" at the cafe :(.

Yesterday, we rode a 200 and I kept it pretty righteous carb-wise, though I did have half a pint at the pub, at 150km, with my Caesar salad. Oh and some wine in the evening. Oh - and carrots (below-the-ground veggies are generally frowned on, on keto diets).

This morning, ketones were 1.8mMol, and blood sugar 5.1mMol, so right on the money really. It's nice to know that mid-audax cake is not a complete disaster keto-wise, but I'm not about to make a habit of it - I was just as happy with a fry-up yesterday.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on April 15, 2013, 06:43:18 pm
My fiancée has joined me in this diet, and is starting to wish she'd waited. She's lost so much weight that the wedding dress she was fitted for no longer fits, and needed to be adjusted again.

She's had to introduce some carbs back into her diet again to try and maintain her current weight, so that the dress will still fit in 3 weeks time.

And she's hating being back on the carbs again. She feels so hungry, it was something that had gone away while on the keto diet, and wasn't missed.

She'll be back on it again as soon as the Wedding is over :)

Start now and make the wedding breakfast a full english!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: PloddinPedro on April 16, 2013, 08:19:08 am
.......... It's nice to know that mid-audax cake is not a complete disaster keto-wise, ...........................
That's encouraging ....... not as much as the beer bit though ......... ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: velovoice on May 14, 2013, 11:17:18 am
Reporting back from my first proper 'long ride' since going ketogenic:  Adam's "Tilting At Windmills" ride on Saturday - see http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/tilting-at-windmills-ride-sat-11th-may.127831/

My day was 115km in total, with stiff headwinds the first 50km.
While I wouldn't go so far as to say it was "a piece of cake" (pardon the expression), I did find it remarkable for lack of "struggle". 

I had a normal breakfast, normal lunch in pub, normal dinner when we got home (very late). Nothing else.
I experienced no fatigue, no hunger, no thinking about food.
Drank normal amounts of water with Hi5 Zero tabs.
I felt pretty great the whole day actually, even on the hills and in the wind.

(Okay, there was one long drag where I was cursing Adam but that was more because he'd said "no more hills from here to Tring", not because the hill was a b*st*rd. Although, it kinda was. At one point I looked for a lower gear that I just didn't have. Not finding it, I just MTFU'd and got on with it. Certainly no problem with energy to do it.)

Perhaps more striking though was how I felt after the ride. I was tired when I got home, but didn't have that urge to crash that I used to get. Of course that may be because this was a day right rather than a FNRttC!  Next day, I had a little soreness in the calves and hamstrings (my usual weaknesses) but, to be honest, I've felt worse after a Pilates session. Normal activities through Sunday and didn't give it a thought. Was back on the bike Monday (yesterday) - felt absolutely normal - did a fast 10km then went looking for some hills! (Not like me at all!! But I'm getting better and beginning to <<gulp>> enjoy it.) Today, I'm rarin' to do Wowbagger's overnight Cambridge to Southend on Friday night!

This was my first ride over 57km since mid-October, having switched to a ketogenic diet on 7 November 2012.

All in all, I've experienced no cons and found some surprising pros to this diet - and that's on top of the IBS relief and slow weight loss.

I'm sticking with it.

P.S. just changed forum name - it was vintagesteel, if anyone's confused!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: velovoice on May 20, 2013, 01:33:01 pm
Did Wowbagger's overnight ride from Cambridge to Southend last Friday/Saturday - third longest ride of my life! Same experience really as reported last week, but my knees started playing up about 100km into it and I really suffered from the lack of sleep (first overnight ride since last September). Packet of pork scratchings at mid-way stop, just to munch on something. I'm really appreciating not being enslaved to constant carb feedings and also lack of muscle soreness afterwards.

Chris, Lindsay - how are things going for you two?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on May 20, 2013, 01:58:30 pm
I've been much less strict on long rides recently, and rather oddly (because I don't really know why it was - perhaps a couple of pints of beer last Wednesday was the cause) I was completely out of ketosis on Friday, scoring 0.2mmol in a morning test.

Audax-wise, we're onto the longer events now; events that are more than a day ride, so encompass actual mealtimes. We are both pretty accomplished at being able to ride long stretches on little or no food, without any negative energy impact; which must be down to much improved fat metabolism, even if full keto-adaptation is absent.

But low-carb eating is very inconvenient. Stop at a Costa for example, and you won't find anything on the menu that doesn't contain carbs. Garages are ok - Babybels are available, as are meaty treats - but I've been happy to revert to more conventional audax food such as a Ginster's sausage roll - it doesn't seem to affect things overall.

We were able to ride 240km of Saturday's 400 (at pretty high pace, averaging 28kph) before we had a sit-down stop, which was Tesco Cafe, Gainsborough. The place looked like it had been sacked - there were no hot food options, and we had to make do with toasties and panninis. More carbs than we'd like, but we avoided anything sweet.

We have, on the odd occasion we've actually ridden in conditions that one might remotely refer to as "warm", had an ice cream at a garage stop, but we generally avoid anything sweet.

At the 320km point on Saturday, we stopped at a pub, and shared a burger meal; fboab had the cheeseburger contents of the burger, and I made a chip-butty out of the rest.

Overall, we're both finding continued gain in energy management and flow on long rides. But we've both found the appetite management less effective. But then again, perhaps that's because we've upped the mileage quite a lot recently (600k weekend, then two weeks later a 400km) so perhaps we're just hungry!

Away from audaxing, we're still pretty strictly LCHF; I've stopped monitoring now, but my daily carb intake is probably 50g or just under - and if I'm strict with my milk-in-tea problem, probably more like 25 or 30g.

As I said a long way up-thread, I did this mostly for weightloss and energy management. In that respect having lost 15Kg since Christmas 2012, and being able to ride 250km of a fast audax on little more than finger food, I'd say it's continuing to be a success.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on July 17, 2013, 09:42:07 pm
I've discovered another plus of the ketogenic diet in this hot weather (apart from being able to eat strawberries and loads of cream whenever I like). 

In the past, the sweat running down my face into my eyes really made them sting, due to the salt.  Now, my sweat is hardly salty at all, so no stinging.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on July 17, 2013, 09:46:58 pm
I thought sweat became less salty as heat adaptation improved anyway...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on July 17, 2013, 09:56:13 pm
I thought sweat became less salty as heat adaptation improved anyway...

Never noticed that in the past.  Or maybe I never adapted to heat previously.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on July 23, 2013, 10:26:28 am
Here's just thing for Keto- nuts, or should that be, fruits  Clicky (http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/west-london/matrix-nutrition/24523304?p=2&nlp=&CID=UK_CRM_1_0_0_204&a=2280&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&sid=fe01fbe5-07d0-48c7-bc4d-ba957346e837&division=west-london&uh=6ee49e39-a69f-4adc-a964-ea441c798e1f&date=20132307&sender=rm&s=body&c=deal_img&d=deal-page&utm_campaign=matrix-nutrition-24523304)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hulver on September 02, 2013, 11:23:50 am
A couple of links to bring this thread back from the dead.

Measurements of VO2 max before and after a keto-diet.

http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance

An article in Nature about low carb diets and their effects on health and various conditions including cholesterol levels and type 2 diabetes. I've not finished reading it yet (it's quite long) but it's interesting, even though I only understand the general parts and not the in depth specifics.

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v67/n8/full/ejcn2013116a.html
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on October 01, 2013, 11:26:43 am
We're both back on the Keto-wagon now.

It all became a little too inconvenient during the Long Ride season - and after all, we'd paid for the food on LEL, so we might as well eat it. So we did. Since LEL we've been pretty much indulging in whatever carby cravings we had, as we concentrated on a pretty tough sequence of post LEL rides (300,400,300,300,200,300,200), and the scales are showing it now - thereby proving once more, long distance cycling is completely useless for weight control.

Day off for me today, so I had time in hand to make a proper breakfast. Bacon, almond buns (Egg delivery system for those allergic to egg), mushrooms in loads of butter, berries & cream. A great many calories but only 6g Carbs.

Not expecting to be hungry again today!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Lady Cavendish on October 01, 2013, 11:37:13 am
What are almond buns? These sound tasty.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on October 01, 2013, 11:50:32 am
What are almond buns? These sound tasty.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=67736.msg1418349#msg1418349

They are, very tasty - but I use them as an egg delivery mechanism. Eggs make me very unwell - but when bound to some floury type stuff (almond flour in this case) they're OK.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Lady Cavendish on October 01, 2013, 11:56:46 am
Thanks Chris, I think I need these in my life. Will be testing these :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on October 01, 2013, 12:21:46 pm
Fried mushrooms? that reminds me, what to do with these bad boys I picked from the "lawn" this morning.

Its hard to judge scale, but consider it about a buckets worth of mushrooms.

To my eyes they look like the mushrooms I buy in Sainsburys allbeit much bigger. So what does the team think, edibleworth eating? How to cook them?

(http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab2/paudax/Random%20Web%20Stuff/2013-10-01101337.jpg) (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/paudax/media/Random%20Web%20Stuff/2013-10-01101337.jpg.html)

(http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab2/paudax/Random%20Web%20Stuff/2013-10-01101352.jpg) (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/paudax/media/Random%20Web%20Stuff/2013-10-01101352.jpg.html)




Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on October 01, 2013, 01:19:52 pm
I'd eat those, unless they bruise yellow or exude purple on cooking.

(I'll eat anything, mind)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on October 07, 2013, 09:30:34 am
Y'know, the very concept of Bullet-proof Coffee sounds revolting:

1. Strong black coffee
+
2. 25g Organic grass-fed unsalted butter
+
3. 2 Tsps Coconut oil
+
4. A blender

But it's actually quite yummy - and makes a great substitute for breakfast.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on October 07, 2013, 08:45:30 pm
Have any of you HFLC dieters had a blood cholesterol test done since starting this diet? I try to follow a Paleo lifestyle and my total cholesterol was recently measured to be 7.7 mmol (NHS recomend <5). My HDL (good cholesterol) had also gone up so the ratio of total/hdl had gone down since my cholesterol was last checked in '09 when I ate a pescatarian (fish and veg) diet. So although this ratio of total/hdl has gone down and I am less risk of a heart attack my GP still wants to see my total cholesterol figure lower. I wondered what your experiences were?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: velovoice on October 07, 2013, 09:28:03 pm
I'll have to dig out the figures but I've only had my cholesterol checked twice in my life:  this summer and about 13 years ago, each time after an extended period back on a ketogenic diet. Both times I was told I had the best cholesterol levels of anybody they'd (nurses and GP respectively) ever seen, in every respect. The GP did say it's the ratio that's important. Volek & Phinney's books explain why this is, and why particle size is even more important, for both types of cholesterol.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on October 07, 2013, 10:31:27 pm
I'd quite like a full blood check, but it's not something you can just turn up at your GP and demand.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 08, 2013, 11:14:20 am
Have any of you HFLC dieters had a blood cholesterol test done since starting this diet? I try to follow a Paleo lifestyle and my total cholesterol was recently measured to be 7.7 mmol (NHS recomend <5). My HDL (good cholesterol) had also gone up so the ratio of total/hdl had gone down since my cholesterol was last checked in '09 when I ate a pescatarian (fish and veg) diet. So although this ratio of total/hdl has gone down and I am less risk of a heart attack my GP still wants to see my total cholesterol figure lower. I wondered what your experiences were?
What is - or was - a Paleo lifestyle? Presumably most of it can only be conjecture.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on October 08, 2013, 12:04:21 pm
I'd quite like a full blood check, but it's not something you can just turn up at your GP and demand.

You could enquire if your GP practice does 'Men's Health' checks. These are routinely offered to middle-aged men and include cholesterol & BP checks. They also check for diabetes.

I know they are done here in London but have no clue about elsewhere.

I think some pharmacies offer cholesterol checks.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on October 08, 2013, 12:22:02 pm
My cholesterol check was part of my 'Well Man check-up'
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on October 25, 2013, 08:12:10 pm
Maybe I shouldn't worry about my cholesterol. See this Aus programme (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/lipid-hypothesis/5257/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+drmikenutritionblog+%28The+Blog+of+Michael+R.+Eades%2C+M.D.%29).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: 'breff on October 26, 2013, 12:16:49 am
Y'know, the very concept of Bullet-proof Coffee sounds revolting:

1. Strong black coffee
+
2. 25g Organic grass-fed unsalted butter
+
3. 2 Tsps Coconut oil
+
4. A blender

But it's actually quite yummy - and makes a great substitute for breakfast.

I amd I like the sound of this and may well experimenticaterise!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on November 13, 2013, 04:27:14 pm
I had to give the coconut oil a miss. It's a natural laxative  :hand:.

I just had a hankering for something indulgent. So I knocked up a Chocolate Minute Muffin. Mmm...mmmm. With a huge dollop of whipped cream, and a few strawberries. Just 5g of carbs, and deeeeelicious.

I love comfort food this time of year, especially when the Black Dog is prowling. Stews, heavy puddings... y'know, stodge. A Keto diet lends itself to this, as fatty food is quite comforting in its texture and the way it fills you up for ages.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Otto on November 13, 2013, 04:33:01 pm
Interesting Thread... as an aside my wife is head teacher of a special school, and several of the students are on the Ketogenic diet , to control their epilepsy they have much fewer seizures whilst on the diet
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on November 14, 2013, 12:10:22 pm
Still chewing the fat over this?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Julian on November 14, 2013, 12:49:40 pm
Have any of you HFLC dieters had a blood cholesterol test done since starting this diet? I try to follow a Paleo lifestyle and my total cholesterol was recently measured to be 7.7 mmol (NHS recomend <5). My HDL (good cholesterol) had also gone up so the ratio of total/hdl had gone down since my cholesterol was last checked in '09 when I ate a pescatarian (fish and veg) diet. So although this ratio of total/hdl has gone down and I am less risk of a heart attack my GP still wants to see my total cholesterol figure lower. I wondered what your experiences were?
What is - or was - a Paleo lifestyle? Presumably most of it can only be conjecture.

It means he lives in a cave and accesses YACF via a crude painting on the wall.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 14, 2013, 12:55:45 pm
I'm definitely Neo in that case. My cave has moving pictures - I paint a new one on the wall everyday.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Julian on November 14, 2013, 01:00:42 pm
I have experimented with a high-protein diet but my lifestyle remains thoroughly modern.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on November 14, 2013, 01:46:38 pm
Maybe I shouldn't worry about my cholesterol. See this Aus programme (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/lipid-hypothesis/5257/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+drmikenutritionblog+%28The+Blog+of+Michael+R.+Eades%2C+M.D.%29).

Much of the info there is misrepresented; people hear what they want to hear.

Quoting Eades "arteriosclerosis is both an inflammatory disease and caused by cholesterol"

You want to avoid clogged-up arteries?  Watch the balance of fat types that you intake, get total cholesterol down to a sensible level and get the balance correct.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on November 14, 2013, 02:08:45 pm

Quoting Eades "arteriosclerosis is both an inflammatory disease and caused by cholesterol"


Specifically, small-dense LDL which is highly inflammatory, and causes plaque deposition at the inflammation site. Large particulate LDL is mostly benign, and HDL is fundamentally helpful in keeping arteries healthy. HDL:LDL ratio is improved by exercise; concentrations of LDL and its particulate size is governed by diet. Overall cholesterol level is mostly determined by genetics.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on November 14, 2013, 06:52:15 pm
Oh, and - it's moments like this that one really really hopes the Keto thing is right  :facepalm:.

Teatime!

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5485/10857964886_fc21a8d789.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40735552@N05/10857964886/)
din dins (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40735552@N05/10857964886/) by Pelotonhound (http://www.flickr.com/people/40735552@N05/), on Flickr

Butter sautéed mushrooms , red meat, veg with MOAR butter.

(I won't mention the pudding which features double cream).

Carbs? Erm... hardly any.

Audax tomorrow. Carbing Fatting up!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on November 14, 2013, 06:54:20 pm
BTW - I've lost 1.5Kg this week. Fat doesn't make you fat, it would seem.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on November 15, 2013, 07:01:42 am
BTW - I've lost 1.5Kg this week. Fat doesn't make you fat, it would seem.
Sounds like you're just eating less fat than you were.


 ;)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Glover Fan on November 15, 2013, 07:28:03 am
That's an extremely small portion. I hit the other end of the "Hungry Horse" megasaurus spectrum when I have a steak meal. But obviously it is the chips that are the problem. :P
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on November 15, 2013, 08:55:27 am
That's a 3ft wide plate.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on November 15, 2013, 10:02:37 pm
On a ketogenic diet I do find that I have to eat more than I really feel like eating, in order to avoid losing yet more weight. 

It's a real effort sometimes to force yet more cream/butter/yummy stuff down.   :-\ ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: geraldc on November 26, 2013, 01:59:42 pm
Switched back to this diet, to shrink my stomach before going on holiday.

I just went to the bathroom, and thought why does the toilet seem to smell of lilt? Hello ketosis!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Julian on November 26, 2013, 03:22:28 pm
Best article I've read on the Paleo Diet (http://hells-ditch.com/2012/08/archaeologists-officially-declare-collective-sigh-over-paleo-diet/).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on November 26, 2013, 03:49:56 pm
Interesting stuff.

As for the comments...  :o Blimey, there are some angry people about. Ah... the bottom half of the internet, how we love it!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on November 26, 2013, 05:50:34 pm
Best article I've read on the Paleo Diet (http://hells-ditch.com/2012/08/archaeologists-officially-declare-collective-sigh-over-paleo-diet/).

Quote
Summing up what many considered to be the main point of the entire conference, she told reporters:

“Look, the diet itself is sound; it’s the philosophy that’s bullshit. Eat what you want. Just leave the damn cavemen out of it.”

I know a lot of crossfitters, many of them often following a paleo-diet, none of them think 'that this is what their ancestors ate'.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on November 26, 2013, 06:49:50 pm
There's obviously a lot of overlap between Paleo and LCHF; it's a sliding scale of carbs from virtually nil (<50g a day) for the Nutritional Ketosis promoted by Phinney & Volek et al (and indirectly, Atkins Induction), to a lowish level (100-150g a day) for the likes of Mark Sissons (Paleo Blueprint).

I originally came at this from the extreme low-carb end. After a brief attempt to get back into keto ways after the end of the audax season, my diet has become a disaster zone - victim of a seasonal visit from The Black Dog (Chocolate anyone? No? How about a couple of packets of Chocolate Hobnobs? You can wash it down with this nice bottle of red... you get the idea). I quite like the idea that eating real food panders to our gene expression, but nobody really knows what we used to eat, back in the day. Probably stuff I'd never dream of  eating; organs of kill, insects, roots, berries. I'll do berries, and roots if they're potatoes or carrots. Oh and lets not forget, we're actually really good at going without. Sure - we'll be hungry and miserable but nobody said it was our god-given right to be happy all the time.

I think it's a very reasonable thing to say "Our diet has to be good enough to get us to breeding age, and no better." And in that, we are pretty adaptable. We can eat pretty much anything it would seem, and subsist in some way. We're really really good at putting on fat when carbohydrates are in abundance (don't I know it) and can live off that really effectively for bloody ages, which is why it's so damn hard to lose the fat again.

But surely the modern take on this is not just to get to breeding age, bang out a few rug-rats and then peg it? We're looking for a diet/way of life that can (a) co-exist with our modern "busy" lives, and (b) allow us (within the limitations of our genes, damn them) to live as long and healthful life as possible. Do I think Ancel Keys had it right? Hell no - and I think that's where Paleo and other low/moderate carb diets will lead us. I can't decide if I want to succumb to the whole conspiracy theory that we're all victims of a HUGE crime perpetrated on us by Big Food and Big Pharma, ever since Lyndon B Johnson bowed to his farming buddies and backed Ancel Keys' completely bogus "Seven Countries" study that (wrongly, because he left out most of the data that disproved what he was wanting to prove) apparently linked cholesterol with heart disease, and that saturated fat was to blame, thereby opening the doors for forty years of Sugar and Wheat based dominion over us serfs. I'm not quite that paranoid. But then again, I have learned that if I want to lose body fat, cutting carbs, not calories, is what works.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on November 26, 2013, 06:55:05 pm
I think it's a very reasonable thing to say "Our diet has to be good enough to get us to breeding age, and no better." And in that, we are pretty adaptable. We can eat pretty much anything it would seem, and subsist in some way. [...]

But surely the modern take on this is not just to get to breeding age, bang out a few rug-rats and then peg it? We're looking for a diet/way of life that can (a) co-exist with our modern "busy" lives, and (b) allow us (within the limitations of our genes, damn them) to live as long and healthful life as possible.
Yes, that's the part of the article that grated with me. He (they?) seemed so obsessed with getting the evolution facts right, they'd lost sight of the bigger picture!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 26, 2013, 11:06:47 pm
But they specifically don't say a low-carb diet is unhealthy. They say its successful existence in pre-history is no proof of its health, because all a diet has to do to be successful in evolutionary terms is get sprogs, not get healthy adults. Thus the 15-year-old girl who existed on a diet of mc-chicken nuggets - palaeolithic people could have lived well off that, had kids at 16 then died at 20 (or 40 or 80 or whenever) it would have been a successful diet in ensuring the continuation of palaeo-bods. Had there only been a mammoth mac donalds.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: PloddinPedro on November 27, 2013, 08:29:13 am
..................... I have learned that if I want to lose body fat, cutting carbs, not calories, is what works.
Yeah but.... that seems to work for you, as you appear to be lucky insofar as you are a 'responder' perhaps - for others among us (i.e. specifically me!) it seems there has to be more to it. (And besides, are you really sure that as well as cutting carbs, you were not also running on a reduced calorie intake as well and it was THIS factor that caused your weight loss?)

I found going low carb (admittedly, not properly, into ketosis and that) I was more able to control my appetite and could ride longer on less food intake BUT I couldn't lose any weight. For me, the holy grail continues to be the answer to the question: how, once I've established a calorie deficit, do I get my body to burn its accumulated body fat (and NOT muscle as well) rather than simply just shut down with fatigue?

Strength building exercise is probably the way to skew weight loss towards fat reduction and not muscle loss but I can't find an answer to the fatigue thing. The depressing thought is that it's taken [30] years slowly to build the surplus body fat and the only effective way to reverse this is to do another 30 years of calorie deficit and there just isn't time if I'm ever gonna do another PBP!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on November 27, 2013, 08:55:27 am
Running at a calorie deficit is unsustainable, if you're hungry all the time. Sooner or later you're going to cave, willpower being a finite reserve. We don't have to live with being hungry, even the poorest of the UK have ready access to cheap food, so just because we can survive being hungry doesn't mean we do- we don't have to.
Fat and protein take longer to digest so leave you feeling fuller, longer. Even if 'carbs kill you' isn't true, eating less of them makes me less hungry, all the time.

I've lost 10kg this year, and most of that is not when I'm doing lots of fat burning exercising, but when I'm eating HFLC and regularly lifting weights.

PP, I really don't think it is being a responder or not. It's actually doing it or not. You've said yourself 'not properly into ketosis'. You already burn fat well- you have to, to be a successful audaxer. The fatigue you mention, is that the well documented 'carb flu' of the newly carb deprived? That goes, within a couple of weeks. Also- weight training will assist with fatigue, the stronger you are, the greater the muscle-fat ratio, the more energy you'll have (all other things being equal).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: PloddinPedro on November 27, 2013, 12:40:36 pm
fboab - first I must say that I accept that (a) I didn’t really try the LCHF properly - I acknowledged that in my post and I’m not knocking the idea; and (b) I do know that most of my problem is probably just failing to knuckle down and DO THE WORK!

Forgive me if I misunderstood our conversations in the Fox & Roman but I thought that you’d been doing the weights etc. for some time but it is only since you’ve been running that you’ve seen the major weight loss success?

My point about the fatigue - not very well expressed on reflection - was made more from past experience rather than my half-assed attempts at LCHF, said experience being that if I manage to create a “weight-losing calorie deficit” for more than a day or two, I just get very tired and slow down rather than eat my bloody body fat stores. Of course, were I in a life-or-death situation, no doubt my body would respond, but that’s really a step too far!

Oh well, perhaps I’ll just give up and go ride my bike!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on November 27, 2013, 06:23:33 pm
With my admittedly limited success at running a sustained campain, the key to combat fatigue has been protein supplements; BCAA and regular protein powder.
I think weightlifting is key. It forces you body to work very hard and it's relatively 'easy' work that you can do even if you're tired.
I can almost always do a lifting session, but will skip a workout if I'm feeling worn out.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on November 28, 2013, 03:10:18 pm
Here you go PP, my year (nearly) on Low Carb High Fat. (Except where I wasn't, and gained weight)
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/fboab/AnnotatedLard.jpg)

Blue line is the daily weigh-in, red line is the trend.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on November 28, 2013, 03:25:06 pm
Clearly, lifting is Good.

Cortisol is Bad - and I'd imagine our Push-It phase post-LEL had us both awash with it; we both feasted at the cake and chocolate troughs that month. This would be Mark Sissons' "Chronic Cardio" argument in action, I guess.

Low carb sidelines Insulin, which provides the right conditions for burning Lard. But you still have to do stuff to burn the lard (assuming fat loss is one's aim); and lifting seems to work well. It's also clear that long distance cycling is rubbish for it - your graph very clearly shows this - when we were putting in the mega-miles, you gained. So did I.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on November 28, 2013, 04:22:07 pm
Interesting. The more I ride, the more weight I lose. Lots of carbos for me.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on November 28, 2013, 04:53:45 pm
Yes, I thought that too. A touring holiday, you eat carbs galore and always lose weight. Unfortunately, I go home, eat 'normally', spend days at a desk not on a saddle and it all comes back, with its friends.
The difference for me is always going to come down to hunger management, fat doesn't make me hungry like carbs do.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on November 28, 2013, 05:14:03 pm
Whatever works for you is good but I know what works for me. Summer is 1-2 belt notches tighter than in Winter, the difference for me is the amount of riding.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on November 28, 2013, 05:55:33 pm
My lard is going, albeit slowly, but I'm doing NO stuff...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Glover Fan on November 28, 2013, 07:03:34 pm
fboab, what your graph tells me is that you have solved the mystery of losing weight, but also between October/November the 4KG is quit :o . But the low carbing thing is obviously working well in general :thumbsup:

I'm very much the same, I've put on half a stone in a month (what's that in new money?). Unfortunately sustained weight loss and weight maintain requires lifestyle changes. But what if I want to eat biscuits for the rest of my life?

I dread to think what will happen if I ever get an injury that means I can't exercise...

That's a good graph btw did you produce that on a specific program/website?

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on November 28, 2013, 07:11:43 pm
Best article I've read on the Paleo Diet (http://hells-ditch.com/2012/08/archaeologists-officially-declare-collective-sigh-over-paleo-diet/).
Brilliant. Satire, but true.

“You simply do not see specific, trans-regional trends in human subsistence in the archaeological record. People can live off everything from whale blubber to seeds and grasses. You want to know what the ideal human diet consists of? Everything."  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on November 28, 2013, 09:00:16 pm
That's a good graph btw did you produce that on a specific program/website?
The data is from  Libra (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.cachapa.libra&hl=en_GB), an android app.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on November 29, 2013, 09:24:05 am
If you find a particular diet regime doesn’t suit you, stop it and do something different which could be advised by your GP.
Also, don’t worry about what the rest of the world is doing. This only leads to internet chatroom arguments and high blood pressure.
Some commentators mention that if all the world ate and drank sensibly, loading on the medical profession would be less.
The people who like to live this one-and-only ( ?? ) life to its full have ‘free will’ to gorge and guzzle. I say “let them enjoy themselves”, but they must donate their bodies to The Central Electricity Generating Board.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mcshroom on November 29, 2013, 11:20:41 am
CEGB - I see that on some of the documents I work with, but they might struggle, considering it was broken up and flogged off 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: PloddinPedro on November 29, 2013, 10:12:28 pm
Here you go PP, my year (nearly) on Low Carb High Fat. (Except where I wasn't, and gained weight)

Gosh, impressive. Looks like the answer is back to the gym though. Sigh. :(
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on November 29, 2013, 10:47:50 pm
No need to sigh, Pedro, as you don't have to do it for very long. Half an hour, 3 times a week is all I do. And probably half of that half an hour is resting between sets. It's much easier to go and lift heavy things if you're tired than it is to thrash out hard effort cardio.
You don't have to go to the gym, either, you can swing kettlebells at home, and do push ups/ weighted squats in the privacy of your own back garden.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 27, 2014, 11:51:14 am
Interesting lecture from Jeff Volek, for Keto fans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC1vMBRFiwE

I particularly like the meta-analyses that shows: "There's no obvious correlation between dietary saturated fat intake, and CHD. There is however, a correlation between serum levels of saturated fat, and CHD." Fascinating subtle distinction.

Guess what? LCHF diets profoundly reduce the amount of serum saturated fat - even when dietary intake is high.

Want some more butter with that bacon?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: geraldc on January 28, 2014, 10:55:38 am
OK so it's a link from the Daily Mail, but it features info about the new BBC doc about sugar vs fat

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2546975/One-twin-gave-sugar-gave-fat-Their-experiment-change-YOUR-life.html
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 28, 2014, 11:03:47 am
Neither diet is one anyone actually follows, though, is it? Even rabid ketonauts eat vegetables. Mmmm our daily brassica.

(And yes to an initial fugginess and lack of top-end power, without carbs. It comes back.)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: adenough on January 28, 2014, 05:17:31 pm
I used to do a lot of running. marathons, half marathons etc. I found that the running seemed to act as an appetite suppressor. I remember reading somewhere about  running shrinking the stomach and so the the body's request for food also became less.
There is a huge controverys raging over on the CTC forum on the, high protein, low carb diet.
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=83408 (http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=83408)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 28, 2014, 06:18:35 pm
I think like everything else it will suit some people, work for some people, not suit others, not work for others.
The rabid anti-Atkins are just as bad as the rabid anti-carb. There's also a range of low carb diets, the protocol Chris & I follow doesn't have high protein, we're all about loving the lard. And butter. Mmmmmm, saturated fat. Nomity nom.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on August 22, 2014, 02:32:17 pm
I think I need a gas exchange analyser.

Interesting N=1 experiment with cycling content, and reduced carb intake:

http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/86875777832/becoming-a-bonk-proof-triathlete-fat-chance
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on August 27, 2014, 01:25:29 pm
That is interesting.

Shame he didn't include more details of his diet. From the one-sentence description, it sounds like he had a high proportion of low-saturation fats. There have been mountain climbers who accustomed their bodies to intake large quantities of veg oil, then drank straight veg oil when on the mountain.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on August 27, 2014, 01:44:24 pm
That is interesting.

Shame he didn't include more details of his diet. From the one-sentence description, it sounds like he had a high proportion of low-saturation fats. There have been mountain climbers who accustomed their bodies to intake large quantities of veg oil, then drank straight veg oil when on the mountain.

Ewwwww!!  :sick:

Surely even Pemmican is tastier than that? And possibly more portable. Weird!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on August 27, 2014, 01:52:35 pm
calories vs bulk and weight. No heating or processing required. No water required (very important)

Sounds pretty yuck but very high mountaineering is about staying alive.

via another forum I know an Alpine guide who swears by coconut fat. Has it in coffee, solid foods, everything when on expedition.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on August 27, 2014, 02:11:15 pm
I was jus thinking about creamed coconut (and looked at the Sainsbury's website for more info).
Coconut oil is saturated and the fatty acid chain is short so less digestion is needed than with other fats.
Creamed coconut is 67% fat, 22% carbs and about 7% protein.

It's nearly 7kcal/g.

Cheap and portable.
I've not tried eating it by itself so cannot comment on palatability.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on August 27, 2014, 02:20:44 pm
You can buy the pure coconut fat, rather than the creamed stuff. It reputedly has some benefits for diabetics and people who have 'energy' problems (ME/CFS and the like). Probably down to the ease of digestion coupled with the steady energy supply.

We bought some for the youngest (who has ME). Can't really say it did much for him. The taste is only slightly coconutty. It's expensive.

The breakdown produces a lot of the 'wrong' cholesterol so it's not a choice for me (at least as part of a regular diet).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on August 27, 2014, 03:05:52 pm
I like the irony of climbing the Alps to eat coconuts.  ;D









(yes, I realise it's eating coconuts to climb Alps and it's not actually coconuts, but still I like it)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on August 28, 2014, 01:53:33 pm
Boab breakfast:

Diet whey protein powder+ full fat milk + hot water + coconut oil.

Much better than shreddies for staving off hunger in the morning.

Satiety from fat is massive.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on August 31, 2014, 11:07:59 pm
www.examiner.com/article/husband-and-wife-row-across-pacific-ocean-fueled-by-high-fat-ketogenic-diet
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on September 04, 2014, 10:12:36 am
Oh - that's a first! A blood ketone level higher than my blood glucose!

BG: 4.3mmol/l
K: 4.7mmol/l

When fasting coincides with bike rides  :thumbsup:.

Thing is - I had bags of energy riding this morning, and feel great! Ketones FTW!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 04, 2014, 01:03:04 pm
The most valuable piece of equipment in a Viking village was the butter churn.

On a longship, each member of the crew would have a barrel of butter. There would be a few fishing lines over the side all the time.

Buttered Herring??

If it was the case that there were no fish, the crew and men would just eat their butter ration.
When they reached Northumbria, the locals had no defence against the strength of the Vikings.

What happened to the descendants of the Vikings?
They won lots of gold medals at the 2012 Olympics.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 04, 2014, 01:08:10 pm
Boab breakfast:

Diet whey protein powder+ full fat milk + hot water + coconut oil.

Much better than shreddies for staving off hunger in the morning.

Satiety from fat is massive.

On return home from school moaning "I'm hungry", mum gave me a spoonfull of butter. That sorted the hunger.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on September 04, 2014, 01:26:04 pm
When they reached Northumbria, the locals had no defence against the strength of the Vikings.
Stamford bridge
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Tail End Charlie on September 04, 2014, 04:22:56 pm
Chelsea 1, Vikings 0.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bianchi Boy on September 04, 2014, 10:11:20 pm
This thread is interesting on a number of levels. Basically your body is very good at converting food into energy, there is no magic to weight loss it is just to do with the number of calories you consume and the number you burn. The truth is that protein and fat take more time to digest and stop you feeling hungry so quickly, so you eat less. This is why people lose weight on these high protein high fat diets. Ever wondered why you feel hungry about 1 hour after eating a Chinese meal? Well white rice is easy to digest and once it is gone, you want more.

The other interesting and little understood area is how to measure the number of calories you consume. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1454084 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1454084) for some scientific stuff on this. But basically fat people under report their calories and over report exercise. I do not think this is restricted to people who appear to be too short for their weight - we all do it.

My conclusion is that complex food containing protein and fat take more time to digest and you do not feel hungry so soon. If you feel better with this or loads of carbs then that is good. Understand our body and how you work, it may surprise you. My best rides have been done on pork pies - these have loads of calories and last for ages. Energy bars on the other hand last for about 30 minutes and then you have to eat another one.

BB
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on September 05, 2014, 12:18:06 am
Some more supportive research:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/02/health/low-carb-vs-low-fat-diet.html
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on December 16, 2014, 06:51:54 pm
Here is a post I made on an Irish cycling forum during the summer.

I'm probably a bit different to the guys with keto diets in that I wasn't purposely trying to enter nutritional ketosis and certainly wasn't measuring it, I did rely very heavily on fat in diet (typically  65:20:15) my emphasis was on using fat for energy i.e. by adapting training to chose body fat as primary source of energy.

This training is essentially fasted morning cycles up to 140km with a lumpy route and 100km ish when very hilly(the roughest being a 100km Gran Canaria spin which included VOTT) and intermittent fasting on non training days also.

My problem with keto is it is very awkward socially.

Anyway my post is below for any other lunantics out there who cycle ;D

Just said I'd detail my experiences with long distance cycling and nutrition, which have been a hand in hand experiment over the past 10 months or so. One of the main reasons for thread is the very regularl new threads here where lads(probably like I would have been a few years ago) asking what is the best thing to eat for cycling.

To start I have no background in cycling. On greatly reducing my field sports activity at 30, bought a bike in 2006 and did a few few sportives, Wicklow 200, ROK, SKT etc. Continued this until 2012 with limited field sports and some cycling, maybe 2-3k per year.

This increased in 2013 with a nice bit on mtb and approximately 8k on road bike, and with it an interest in fueling it.

When starting on bike, like everyone else I was confronted with the advice of using gels, bars, sports drinks etc, however for most part I ignored them and just fueled myself using normal food.

Having come across the HFLC threads in the training log forum I decided to give it ( a very sceptical) go for 12 months and it coincided with a decision to give audax riding a go also.

Although I had never struggled with weight, fueling myself with fat instead of carbs raised my curiosity, as it wasn't something I had thought of before.

The diet was quite simple, I just cut pasta, bread potatoes and rice. Fruit and veg stayed in varying quantities(always collective very large) and the diet staples in order of quantity are; eggs, nuts, olive oil, coconut oil, greek yoghurt, olives, cheese, red meat(mainly Irish beef and mountain lamb), chicken(minus breast meat), fish, butter, cream, dark chocolate. I eat a huge variety of veg.

On bike I've been fairly busy with over 7k clocked for year, but I'm unlikely to have time for this as year progresses. What can I do now that I couldn't do before on a higher carb diet
* cycle in a fasted state; have done up to 140km before breakfast
* with breakfast can cycle easily to 180km ish. Got to Fethard last Saturday on MF1200, and only ate as unsure as to where next opportunity would be
* I've never come near bonking.
* My total food for day was; fatty breakfast at 5am, on bike at 8am, 185km bowl of soup with cream and butter. I cycled a further 225km and in that time I ate 2 apples, greek yoghurt, olives, various nuts(200g) and a bananna.(speed according to strava was 25.6km/h)

It should be borne in mind, my typical pace depending on distance, elevation etc but is normally in 24km/h-30kmh range, so I'm not fast.

The biggest advantage of diet is avoiding, digestion trouble encountered with big meals on long rides. I need very little. I believe( and maybe completely wrong) diet is most suited to ultra endurance type events, rather than racing.
Although having said that I've never felt as healthy or strong.

I'm not advocating this for anyone just pointing out what is possible for an average athlete with very little adaptation.

For help with HFLC try optimumnutrition4sport
For someone who thinks it's bo11ox to cycle and eat HFLC try anthonycolpo.com. Interesting, intelligent and a little annoying all in one

There are loads more out there.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: The French Tandem on December 17, 2014, 12:06:43 pm
The most valuable piece of equipment in a Viking village was the butter churn.

On a longship, each member of the crew would have a barrel of butter. There would be a few fishing lines over the side all the time.

Buttered Herring??

If it was the case that there were no fish, the crew and men would just eat their butter ration.
When they reached Northumbria, the locals had no defence against the strength of the Vikings.

What happened to the descendants of the Vikings?
They won lots of gold medals at the 2012 Olympics.

Are you suggesting that the alleged benefits from eating butter have been engraved in the Viking's DNA, and transmitted to their descendants?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on December 18, 2014, 11:07:44 am
More interesting stuff:

http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/

I wonder how transferable any research involving ultra-runners might be for ultra-cyclists. I find cycling much much easier than running; at pretty much any level.

But the ability to run/ride an endurance event on minimal intake would be really handy for those who get gut upsets when exercising and can't eat well.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on January 05, 2015, 10:16:09 pm
I've decided to give this a go. Mrs Sloth is convinced and has been for some time. She's quit 20 years of vegetarianism* to make a go of it .
*she did eat fish.

I was very sceptical (the cause of many heated domestic debates), but I've seen that Tim Noakes is preaching the word. I've got a lot of respect for him and if he says it's so, it is (hopefully).
I watched Cereal Killers (http://www.cerealkillersmovie.com/). It's well worth a look.
It shouldn't been too hard to adjust my meals to fit with this as Mrs Sloth controls all household food purchases and productions.
Struggling to get my head around consuming this type of food on long rides.
I have a formula for food on the bike which I feel works for me and I'm loath to tamper with it. Glad to find this thread and read about Chris S and fboab's experiences on audax

There's a follow up movie Run on Fat (http://www.runonfatmovie.com/) soon to be released which looks interesting.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 06, 2015, 11:24:40 am
Hope it works out for you both!

I'm on Day 4 of <50g carbs a day, so I'm at the peeing like a horse stage as I dump water - I've lost 2Kg since Saturday! Important time to keep the electrolytes and water coming (couple of cups of broth a day really helps) to avoid Lo-carb Flu.

I had been planning to start 5x5 Stronglifts - but I might give this a miss for a couple of weeks, just until I settle back into it.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: RichForrest on January 06, 2015, 12:09:25 pm
There are quite a few powerlifters/bodybuilders that are on keto diets, Mark Bell is one and he's one huge strong guy!!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 06, 2015, 12:19:11 pm
There are quite a few powerlifters/bodybuilders that are on keto diets, Mark Bell is one and he's one huge strong guy!!

It's definitely doable - but you have to get it right, otherwise you can end up in the worst of both worlds - no glycogen and inability to lift because you haven't adapted to burning fat at much higher work intensities.

I'm pretty sure I'd fail early at lifting right now - I'm getting a lot of postural hypotension which is common in the early days of switching to minimal carbs; I'd hate to keel over half way through a squat!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Cycling Daddy on January 31, 2015, 04:17:39 pm
Train low race high: best of both worlds??

I am looking at my diet and in particular nutrition on longer (say more than 400K) rides.  Wondered if something like this http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-nutrition-the-latest-research-into-low-glycogen-training-42067 was a)effective and b) aceivable??
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 05, 2015, 12:26:05 pm
Train low, race high is effectively what fboab and I ended up doing in our points-chasing audax year (2013) - the first year we "did" a low carb/high fat ketogenic diet.

We did a lot of fasted riding early in the year, by working our way up to being able to ride 100km before breakfast, and easily ride 80km segments without any supplemental food. The combination of that, and already having very very low carbohydrate intake most days (<50g, usually <30g) meant we became adept fat-burners.

But - a keto diet is really really inconvenient. Find yourself in a Costa on a freezing cold, sleety ride? There won't be ANYTHING you can eat there - it's ALL carbs. That's not so bad for a 200 where you can carry Babybels and nuts, but this inconvenience becomes a real PITA for longer events - especially multi-day events (>400km). Plus - on rides with full TLC - we resent not being able to eat the food we paid for!

So on rides, we completely relaxed our regime; we'd eat what was on offer, and we'd not be restricted in what we ate at commercial controls. Ice cream for breakfast on a hot 400? Bring it on!! When you're exercising (and have some training behind you), you become much more insulin sensitive, and can handle more in the way of refined carbs. It still shuts down fat metabolism when you eat it - and you'll be burning carbs while they're available, but your underlying fat-burning training will always stand you in good stead once that sugar has burned off.
The upshot of all this was we had absolutely no food issues when it came to the longer rides, including LEL; we ate "normally" - which for us was much higher carb than usual; we had the benefit of well-tuned fat metabolism, but could handle more in the way of sweet stuff on the longer rides - which does indeed sound like the best of both worlds!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on February 11, 2015, 05:20:00 pm
well , i've bin reading a bit, an' thinking a bit. And 'sort of ' trying this out. I've always believed in this sort of thing really. two reasons'
A) My dad was always overweight, (no lets be honest, he was huge, bless him) and the doctor told him,....  30 + years ago, to CUT OUT BREAD AND POTATOES, but of course he didn't.

B) years ago I was seriously into lifting weights, you know , arms bigger than neck, stuff, and i read a section of a book on diet. Basically it said that if you have a milky cereal breaky, it lines the stomach, and prevents it from accessing the body fats that lie beyond. The suggested breaky was a couple of rashers of grilled bacon, one or two poached eggs, on a slice of dry toast. I tried it,and felt so much more alert, and energetic. This was prob 25 years ago. lately I've taken to gorging myself on porridge for breaky, and felt so blinkin stodgy.
But now I've tried this Ketogen thing for 5 days,  no bread, but fatty stuff, meat, veg, cheese dairy, fruit etc. Basically if its natural carbs , ie pots, I''ll have a couple, but pasta, white rice , bread, NO!   

I honestly feel like i'm on speed at the mo, Not fast on the bike, but strong, low down grunt, stuff i've been lacking in for ages. I'm alert, came back after a fasted 75km  and shower, then some breaky, But quite amazingly I've gone down from 97kg to 94.9kg in a little over a week, but with bags on energy.  So my view at the mo, is yes , its working , if its natural carbs, then eat a little. When I'm riding, I feel like I have a little fire in my stomach, not hunger, but a tiny fuel burning furnace, and it feels good.

Right now I've got an overpowering urge to eat a large doner kebap and salad, all that fatty lamb.. :-*

oooo, talking of food, ooh have I  a little post ride lunch time gem for you.  2 egg omelette, with cheese, and BLUE cheese, and TUNA, and season with salt and pepper and TOBASCO, then fold over and let melt, served with grated carrot and salad.  Oh the thought of it makes me want to go and cook one, hmm, doner kebap, or omelette.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on February 13, 2015, 11:07:11 pm
A month and a half in for me and here's how it's gone/going (all in, no cheating):

The first couple of days were tough: hungry & low energy. Manageable during normal operations, but not on the bike.
It felt like someone had taken my batteries out. I normally smash my 2x20km commute, I now felt as if I would not be able to make it home. Body weight plummeted alarmingly. 3kg in about 3 days. (I'm pretty sure now that most of that was fluid loss).

Two weeks in and it all felt normal. Better than normal in fact. Energy levels more or less constant throughout the day. No post lunch dozies, no cravings for sweet stuff. Weight has dropped from 88kg to 82kg. On the bike I felt like I lost my top end power. This was evident in my inability to perform well at SCR (http://www.itsnotarace.org/). It's hard to be completely objective during winter, but I feel like my form is returning.
Two weeks in I road the Willy Warmer 200. It went really well. I was able to maintain a good pace and felt nice constant energy levels throughout. No lows, no bonk. I fuelled on almonds, cheese and droewors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dro%C3%ABwors) (which I've read is the next best thing to pemmican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican)). I didn't really feel the need to eat my rations, but did so out of principle.

My plan was to give it a go for a month and re-evaluate. I'm happy with it thus far and plan to continue.
I need to do a few more long rides and some TT's to really understand it's impact on my performance.
I miss certain foods (chocolate, beer, pasta, etc), but the desire is more academic than a hard craving. As Chris S mentioned it's not that easy to find fat when out and about. You become acutely aware that we live in a carb world and rather than "contains added fat", you're likely to encounter "low fat" or "fat free".
For audax I've always tried to carry as much of my own victuals as possible, rather than relying on control food. This may become a necessity, one difficult to achieve for something like PBP.
I've been using Ketostix to monitor and I'm somewhere between 1.5 & 4 mmol/L. There is probably scope for me to lower my daily carb intake a bit more. I've also not yet tried any of the more extreme tactics: fast or fast & ride.
The only negative to report is the odd dizzy spell when I stand up after a bit of inactivity (blood pressure? lack of salt?)

Well worth watching: Jeff Volek: The Many Facets of Keto-Adaptation: Health, Performance, and Beyond  (http://youtu.be/n8BY4fyLvZc)

...and something to help with the chocolate cravings: Healthy Fats Choc Pot Recipe (http://mummymovement.com/2015/01/09/healthy-fats-choc-pot-recipe/)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 14, 2015, 01:43:21 pm
The only negative to report is the odd dizzy spell when I stand up after a bit of inactivity (blood pressure? lack of salt?)

Yeah. Couple of cups of broth a day should fix that. Don't skimp on salt on your food - as you've discovered, your blood pressure before you stand up suddenly is probably already lower than it was, so worries about too much salt should be put to one side. Eat lots of spinach and other potassium rich greens (kale is good if you can stomach it - I'm not a fan), and if you already take a Vitamin C supplement, try Magnesium Ascorbate instead as a means of getting some additional Magnesium - this helps a lot if you're getting troubled with cramps or twitchy muscles.

Glad it's going well so far; expect full adaptation to take three months, so you're about half way  :thumbsup:.

There are some low-carb chocolate fixes out there in the wilds of the internet; look up  "One minute chocolate muffin (http://recipes.sparkpeople.com/recipe-detail.asp?recipe=153406)" for example. Also - a couple of squares of >= 75% dark chocolate is OK as a treat.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 14, 2015, 01:53:04 pm
I've been meaning to repeat the vo2max test I did several years ago. Our local gym does nothing like that. So I googled and found this in Bristol:

http://www.truezone.co.uk/Home.html

They also provide the fat/carb ratio analysis that ChrisS has mentioned several times. Would be interesting to see where I sit. My macros are typically 30-40% fat and around 40% carb so I'm not on a low fat diet.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on February 15, 2015, 06:55:17 pm
I did my first "fasted ride today":
No breakfast, out at 07:30. 125km, 5hrs riding time. No food on the bike. Just water and some 0cal hydration salts.
I felt good the whole way. I was able to push hard & sprint up hills without any energy drops.
This test has been the first confirmation that things are now very different (in a good way). Back in my porridge days I couldn't make it to the front door without breakfast. I would also need to feed constantly while on the move.

I've got to go to India for a week soon. I doubt it's going to be logistically possible for me to maintain my faddy eating regime whilst out there. If I partake of rice and beer (oh the horror) do you think I'll have a major set back on the adaptation path?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 15, 2015, 08:22:25 pm
If I partake of rice and beer (oh the horror) do you think I'll have a major set back on the adaptation path?

That's what all the books, blogs and how-tos say.

Some carbs can be tolerated without damaging your adaptation if you're exercising. Take a bike with you!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 21, 2015, 05:39:44 pm
So my fat burning ability is not optimised at the moment. I had a peak of 35% from fat, and probably that should be aiming for at least 50%. Interestingly the fat burning climbed, then there was a sudden peak, followed by a trough, then it shot up again. It looked as though the trough co-incided with my heart rate starting to rise rapidly then the second peak was when that rise levelled off again. Probably a result of the variation in effort level (increasing effort by 20W every minute).

My AT was at 240W (about the same as measured last time in 2009) and my VO2max occurred at 320W at 3.902L/min of oxygen, for a VO2max of 51.2 given my current weight. In 2009 I peaked at 4.05L/min with a VO2max of 54.8 as I was 2kg lighter. I’m aiming to lose 2-4kg by PBP.

Mostly I need to ride my bike in zone 2 to train my aerobic base. Exactly the same thing I was told in 2009. I’ll be going back in to discuss the results in more detail at some point. I’m tempted to repeat the test at least once more between now and PBP as it’s easy to get to for me (well it is now - I got lost on the way and was late).

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 26, 2015, 08:48:13 am
Fasted rides of increasing length work for me. At least I assume they do - I've never had my Vo2Max measured, but I can ride 100km before breakfast when fit.

Obviously this leads to some really low blood sugar. If I'm not that well keto adapted, that makes me miserable and moody (Rutland 100 a couple of weeks ago - fasted but moody!  ;D), but once keto-adapted (brain happy to run on ketones instead of glucose) I'm much happier. The science kinda works; not that that makes it any easier to achieve - adaptation can take months.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: T42 on February 26, 2015, 08:54:39 am
I read a report a few years ago to the effect that a five-minute break an hour after starting accelerates the switch to fat-burning.  I'm none too sure that a 5-min break filled with coffee and cake would have the same effect, but I've noticed that on rides that include a 25-km control I go a hell of a lot better afterwards.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 26, 2015, 09:07:54 am
I suspect the numbers might look a bit different if I'd cycled the 18 miles to the testing place. I wasn't fasted when I did the test.

Vo2max is improved by endurance training but more effectively by HIIT. But it correlates best with 5 minute effort performance and isn't something I need to work on.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on February 28, 2015, 06:56:47 pm
been off the bike for 10 days, whist working in That France ,  so not much exercise, but still manage to loose a little bit of weight, not much tho, but also didn't put any on ::-) . Sticking to the regime as much as I can, but although I haven't lost that much weight, prob 4 .5 kg+/-. my body shape has change quite dramatically. 1 extra belt notch, or if no belt, I can tuck a tee shirt, a thin wool jumper, and a medium pile fleece, into my jeans.  I blagged some bib shorts from the free section a week or so back, and tried them on today. Opened the packet  , and thought  'your kidding me' they'll never fit me. When I tried them on, i felt like an althlete, and I looked at my self in the mirror, then sideways as well, my god! my stomach has dissapeared,...its flat! no more distended belly, full of gas or whatever, and out on the bike I felt like a whippet, its as if I've lost about 2 stone.

as they used to say ''Rock-on Tommy''   (Cannon and Ball IIRC)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: WCTD on February 28, 2015, 07:30:26 pm
Been trying to have at go at this for a couple of weeks and to be honest i'm struggling a bit, especially on the bike and with hunger too. I find i'm worrying about where the energy's going to come from when on the bike, out today for 80k and struggled badly, not with the hunger but lack of energy. About 50k stopped at shop and had one those pepparami things  :sick: and a pint of full fat milk  :thumbsup: managed ok but despite having chicken stir fry for dinner i'm still hungry, not eaten bread, pasta, potatoes or rice for 2 weeks or more, no processed food either, plenty of eggs, fish,cheese, meat and vegetables. I'm actually wondering if i've reduced the carbs enough to make a difference, can't be arsed with the counting though.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on February 28, 2015, 07:52:41 pm
are you eating Ketogenic or Paleo? With both there is an adaptation stage to go through for the first 2/3 wks. The Paleo Diet for athletes book recommends introducing carbs before, during and after exercise.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on February 28, 2015, 08:01:33 pm
''Chicken stir fry for dinner and I'm still hungry''  that could be because part of the stir fry is ....noodles....eg carbs.   maybe a Chicken stir fry, without noodles,  but with added nuts, grated carrot, and a couple of fried eggs and grated cheese on top. That should keep you going till tomorrow lunchtime, with a 50km fasted ride for breakfast.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: WCTD on February 28, 2015, 08:09:43 pm
''Chicken stir fry for dinner and I'm still hungry''  that could be because part of the stir fry is ....noodles....eg carbs.   maybe a Chicken stir fry, without noodles,  but with added nuts, grated carrot, and a couple of fried eggs and grated cheese on top. That should keep you going till tomorrow lunchtime, with a 50km fasted ride for breakfast.

No noodles involved, chicken and veg only.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: WCTD on February 28, 2015, 08:12:51 pm
are you eating Ketogenic or Paleo? With both there is an adaptation stage to go through for the first 2/3 wks. The Paleo Diet for athletes book recommends introducing carbs before, during and after exercise.

LCHF i suppose, just trying to reduce the carbs as other methods of weight loss have not been successful.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 28, 2015, 09:26:18 pm
Hello WCTD :)

There are lots of possibilities as to why you're struggling. First and foremost, a couple of weeks isn't that long - it might take a couple of months to fully adapt.

The good news is, there's lots you can do to ease the path to adaptation. Firstly, re-read this thread - follow the links various of us have posted; there's lots of info out there but it takes some digging to find it.

Don't be afraid to eat more fat. Fat helps satiety - which will reduce your hunger issues.

Drink plenty of water - and put salt on everything! Turns out, salt is really only a problem (hypertension) when it's in conjunction with carbs. Once you reduce carbs enough, your body will dump salt (and also potassium, and magnesium) and this loss of electrolytes can make you feel pretty crappy ( so called "keto flu" ) so keep your electrolytes coming.

Don't stress the loss of performance. It does come back - your body will learn, it will adapt. I've been low carb since New Year, and after a month of being pretty rubbish, I'm now happily lifting weights, and riding longer distances.

As they say on reddit/keto - "Keep calm and Keto on"
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Jakob on February 28, 2015, 09:32:02 pm
Been trying to have at go at this for a couple of weeks and to be honest i'm struggling a bit, especially on the bike and with hunger too. I find i'm worrying about where the energy's going to come from when on the bike, out today for 80k and struggled badly, not with the hunger but lack of energy. About 50k stopped at shop and had one those pepparami things  :sick: and a pint of full fat milk  :thumbsup: managed ok but despite having chicken stir fry for dinner i'm still hungry, not eaten bread, pasta, potatoes or rice for 2 weeks or more, no processed food either, plenty of eggs, fish,cheese, meat and vegetables. I'm actually wondering if i've reduced the carbs enough to make a difference, can't be arsed with the counting though.

What's currently working for me is:

Morning: Smoothie from: 1 cup frozen fruit, 1/2 banana, 1tsp almond butter, 1 cup orange juice and 3 (raw) eggs.
Snack: Elevate/Protein bar
Lunch: 1 handful of meat (varies between roasted chicken, hamburgers, turkey meatloaf),  kale salad and a big handful of broccoli.
Snack: cashew nuts+ raisins
Dinner: Same as lunch
Snack: (same as above).

No more post lunch drowsiness and I have a lot more energy than usual.
Unfortunately I'm also doing a lot of overtime, so wheels have fallen off a bit and the gluten/rice/noodle free dinner options at work are not great.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: WCTD on March 02, 2015, 01:21:14 pm
Hello WCTD :)

There are lots of possibilities as to why you're struggling. First and foremost, a couple of weeks isn't that long - it might take a couple of months to fully adapt.

The good news is, there's lots you can do to ease the path to adaptation. Firstly, re-read this thread - follow the links various of us have posted; there's lots of info out there but it takes some digging to find it.

Don't be afraid to eat more fat. Fat helps satiety - which will reduce your hunger issues.

Drink plenty of water - and put salt on everything! Turns out, salt is really only a problem (hypertension) when it's in conjunction with carbs. Once you reduce carbs enough, your body will dump salt (and also potassium, and magnesium) and this loss of electrolytes can make you feel pretty crappy ( so called "keto flu" ) so keep your electrolytes coming.

Don't stress the loss of performance. It does come back - your body will learn, it will adapt. I've been low carb since New Year, and after a month of being pretty rubbish, I'm now happily lifting weights, and riding longer distances.

As they say on reddit/keto - "Keep calm and Keto on"

Thanks Chris, i've had a read back and it has some really good info, couple of things i couldn't quite see though, how to tell when you've adapted ? by that i mean how do you know that your body is burning fat from, in my case, a quite large store, and matters relating to no longer being regular in the bowel dept,it's been quite a while  :-[
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 02, 2015, 01:46:54 pm
Thanks Chris, i've had a read back and it has some really good info, couple of things i couldn't quite see though, how to tell when you've adapted ? by that i mean how do you know that your body is burning fat from, in my case, a quite large store, and matters relating to no longer being regular in the bowel dept,it's been quite a while  :-[

You can be pretty sure you've become adapted if (select one or more from the list):


As for gastric function - that too changes. I'll hide the details from the more squeamish readers :)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on March 02, 2015, 06:56:32 pm
Partial answer to the above:
On some sporty podcast recently there was an expert claiming fat-adaption generally only takes 2 weeks; at that point you're not fully "adapted" but most of the changes are there.

Anyhoo:
I'm after "convenient" snack tips. 2 main categories I guess:
- on the bike snacks;
- stuff I can make quickly at home.
(currently I'm eating a lot of processed meat,  which I'm keen to avoid due to all the additives/salt)

If this is in separate thread - or if discussed extensively already on page eleventy-one - please advise!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 02, 2015, 07:12:57 pm
On the bike:

BabyBels
Nuts (Cashews, Mixed, maybe Peanuts (not nuts))
Pepperami (Yuk! - fboab occasionally eats these)

But, once adapted - we don't need to carry anything - bonking doesn't happen.

At home:

Cheese
Cold meats - keep a ready supply of chicken legs/wings/thighs - roast them in batches and they're always there in the fridge
Half a can of pink or red salmon, or maybe mackerel
Berries & cream
Sugar-free jelly & cream (I make my own sugar-free jelly with frozen summer fruits and gelatin, sweetened with a little Stevia) - one pint makes a batch of five jellies
Handful of nuts
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on March 02, 2015, 07:23:44 pm
Thanks.

I should say that I do not realistically hope to ever cut-out carbs properly. I dont have the willpower! (Toast - its a basic Human Right. Marmite or Jam, or just butter - not bovvered)

But I have found advantages to increasing my fat:carb ratio, and feel that fasted riding has worked very well for me.

So the more low-carb food in my diet the better. Yet snacks for use on long rides will probably always be a feature (and for those mid-afternoon work treats, when everyone else is scoffing birthday cake). My flapjack fairy does make me _excellent_  low sugar fruity/nutty morsels,  but I reckon I can do better.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 02, 2015, 08:12:47 pm
Toast - its a basic Human Right. Marmite or Jam, or just butter - not bovvered

Yes. The smell of toast, or freshly baked bread, do officially qualify as "Torture" for LCHF'ers.

Thankfully, the smell of cooking bacon works too  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on March 02, 2015, 08:42:22 pm
So how much carb is TOO much per day?  I mean if you say have fish and chips but only have say 10 chips, will this undo all that has gone before.  Likewise 1 slice of bread?? (toast).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on March 02, 2015, 08:49:28 pm
''Chicken stir fry for dinner and I'm still hungry''  that could be because part of the stir fry is ....noodles....eg carbs.   maybe a Chicken stir fry, without noodles,  but with added nuts, grated carrot, and a couple of fried eggs and grated cheese on top. That should keep you going till tomorrow lunchtime, with a 50km fasted ride for breakfast.

No noodles involved, chicken and veg only.

Funny this. i had the same last night, with a tiny potion of rice, (really small) Wasnt full after either, although there seemed to be a fair bit on my plate. But today I had an 80km errand to run, and I felt totally flat riding fasted, not normally like me, but I was flagging. then it dawned on me that my dinner the previous nte, of stir fry, (no extra cheese, or eggs, just stirfry) had no FAT in it at all, thats why I was low on energy. Still forced myself to about 55km before succombing to a banana and a small round cheese.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 02, 2015, 09:20:17 pm
So how much carb is TOO much per day?  I mean if you say have fish and chips but only have say 10 chips, will this undo all that has gone before.  Likewise 1 slice of bread?? (toast).

It's an entirely personal thing. Everyone is Insulin Resistant to a degree. At one extreme you have someone who can eat a ten pack of Asda doughnuts in a single sitting (highly insulin sensitive), and yet be skeletally thin, and someone else who no matter how hard they try, cannot lose any fat even on next to no carbs (highly insulin resistant).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on March 02, 2015, 10:12:28 pm
so you think that on this keto regime, a 'little' carbs is ok, or should one stay well clear.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on March 03, 2015, 11:44:53 am
so you think that on this keto regime, a 'little' carbs is ok, or should one stay well clear.

I just eat HFLC and don't  look to get into Ketosis(although mixed with intermittent fasting and depleted cycling I've no doubt entered Ketosis many times) but this is one of the better resources to answer your question.

http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 05, 2015, 11:51:59 am
Just watched "Cereal Killers II - Run on Fat" which delves into the world of elite athletic performance on a LCHF diet.

As a story running through the various interviews with the old protagonists, they follow this crazy couple who rowed 2400 miles from SFO to Hawaii: http://www.fatchancerow.org/

Lots of interesting stuff for Keto fans - once again, the essential message is "Eat real food".
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 05, 2015, 12:25:18 pm
'On the bike' snack.

Doggie bag of Premier Inn sausages.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: WCTD on March 09, 2015, 10:45:42 am
Did my 1st 200k this weekend under my attampt at a low carb routine, dinner previous night was 2  good quality plain burgers (no bread) served with loads of veg, ride consisted of me having 2 sticks of pepperami and 3 babybel's, one pint of full fat milk and a handful of brazil nuts, this lasted me until 140k when the the guy's i was riding with had a cafe stop, didn't even feel hungry but opted to have some chicken fajita just to be sociable like. I felt incredibly strong on the bike with none of my previous signs of massive appetite and hunger, no cramps or bonk at all, so a big improvment for me ride wise but still lots to do as i spoiled it afterwards back at the hall where i had a pack of those Mr Porky pure pork cackling  :smug: and a can of soft drink  :( back on the regime today but must cut back on dairy as i'm eating and drinking to much of it.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on March 09, 2015, 03:24:24 pm
Nothing wrong with eating lots of cheese. High fat/low carb delight. Full fat greek yoghurt? Bring it on. Double Cream? Yes please!
Lots of milk is only a problem if you're actually having pints of milk- make sure you're having full fat and less than 200ml a day- it's 4% lactose after all.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on March 11, 2015, 11:49:23 pm
well, my weight is still dropping, waist is getting slimmer, trousers getting looser, havent had any bread in prob 4 weeks, had about 10 chips last night, with 1/2 a lge cod. baked beans and peas. Really fancy a lge doner kebap, with salad , yogurt and chilli sauce yes please, innit. Thing is , when do you stop, I mean we set a 'goal' but we don't know if this goal is the optimum weight, or just lighter than we are now, so we are chuffed. ???
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on March 12, 2015, 06:22:25 pm
You won't know your goal now but when your cycling performance deteriorates then you've lost too much.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on October 20, 2015, 10:41:59 pm
Cereal Killers II - Run on Fat is available to watch for free for a limited time:
https://gumroad.com/l/pioppirunsonfat

Use promo code: italy
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on October 20, 2015, 10:45:10 pm
Cereal Killers II - Run on Fat is available to watch for free for a limited time:
https://gumroad.com/l/pioppirunsonfat

Use promo code: italy

And it's an excellent watch - whether you subscribe to the diet or not. Watch out for the CDC on Steve Phinney's mantelpiece, too  :thumbsup:.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on October 21, 2015, 08:54:01 pm
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode86/

Excellent discussion on metabolic flexibility
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 22, 2015, 07:40:38 am
It’s well known in the medical world that it takes between seven and ten years to completely replace dead cells with new.
Brain cells last for life.

When a person completely changes lifestyle, physical demands and diet, it might take this long for the body to adapt completely to the new circumstances.

When it comes to cycling, a complete newbie who has previously not done any physical exercise will more than likely wreck their knees because they’re not robust enough for the new demands.
After seven years of a steadily increasing regime of activity, the person might then be able to mash up hills.
During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.

Mum knows best. “Eggs and beans on toast for tea.”
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on October 22, 2015, 09:16:52 am
During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.

Have to challenge you there. You can (and should) have plenty of vegetables on a Keto diet; all the above ground veggies are fine - best served with butter. And bacon  :thumbsup:.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on October 22, 2015, 10:07:25 am
During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.

Have to challenge you there. You can (and should) have plenty of vegetables on a Keto diet; all the above ground veggies are fine - best served with butter. And bacon  :thumbsup:.

Yep while my diet isn't ketogenic at moment, with too much fruit and no restriction on veg it is very high fat.

Most guy I know eating HFLC eat more veg than your average vegetarian. On a volume basis veg dominates the plate of anyone eating a well formulated HFLC diet.

Every so often I plug a few days eating into cronometer.com and there is never an issue with any micro nutrient. The saturated fat "bar" is a bit mental though  :)

Anyone here try ketone salts? I'd be wary of them even though they are available otc. They allow glycogen and ketones to co exist which seems to good to be true, which is a red flag for me
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on October 22, 2015, 10:50:34 am
Collagen rich diet?

Which type of collagen do you want to eat?
There is no point in eating collagen as it is completely digested before being taken into the blood stream and the only collagen which would be worthwhile is human collagen.  There are I believe just over 30 different collagens identified and only four or five in humans.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mcshroom on October 22, 2015, 11:14:07 am
During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.

Have to challenge you there. You can (and should) have plenty of vegetables on a Keto diet; all the above ground veggies are fine - best served with butter. And bacon  :thumbsup:.

Yep while my diet isn't ketogenic at moment, with too much fruit and no restriction on veg it is very high fat.

Most guy I know eating HFLC eat more veg than your average vegetarian. On a volume basis veg dominates the plate of anyone eating a well formulated HFLC diet.

I'm not following a keto-diet, but just a simpler calorie restriction one at the moment*. I'm finding I'm eating larger portions of veg and especially salads than I would have done normally, as often I end up replacing the more calorific carbohydrate section of the meal with more of these relatively low-calorie alternatives.

*MFP tracking everything and budgeting on the fly. I should really look at something more structured, especially not replacing all my exercize calories, but this has worked for the last month so not too bad :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 22, 2015, 01:35:44 pm
As I understand, the 'low calorie' alternative to CHO, is H2O.
 ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on October 22, 2015, 05:10:15 pm
As I understand, the 'low calorie' alternative to CHO, is H2O.
 ;D


No, I think that's the driver's low cal alternative to C2H5OH
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on December 04, 2015, 05:01:57 pm
I've seen someone get very very ill on a ketosis-based diet. Going into ketosis is fine for a short period but not long-term.

It's a bad idea if you are diabetic or have a history of kidney problems. Also, it's easy to over-do the protein, which can stress the kidneys. My diet is based on 1.5g/Kg LBM of protein, so about 100g a day. A properly formulated low-carb, high-fat diet is pretty benign, and nutritious. It's meat/dairy/fish + salads and veg.

I was diagnosed T1 2.5 years go and have started researching this in some depth.

There's a hell of a difference between nutritional ketosis and the very nasty diabetic ketoacidosis which is life threatening.

The first is achieved by reduction in carb intake (and associated insulin administration in my case), with the majority of calories from fat, protein is moderate.

the second is brought about by insufficient insulin to deal with the continuing carb intake, and I was in that situation prior to diagnosis. With a lack of any circulating insulin my body started to cannibalise itself for energy and after using my fat reserves went on to start on the muscles and I lost over 10% of my bodyweight in the space of a few weeks.  My ketones at diagnosis were >3mmol/l and Blood Glucose (BG) >25mmol/l

as a well controlled T1, in nutritional ketosis, my fasting BG is now around 5.0 (i.e. normal) and my ketones measured yesterday were 1.4

 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on January 21, 2016, 10:27:17 am
http://www.scienceofultra.com/podcasts/

Good podcast on fat adaptation from a well informed, experienced and qualified lady.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 29, 2016, 10:24:12 am
Sorry for what is going to be a longish post.

We have gradually been reducing carbohydrate as my wife went gluten free 2 years ago and so we have no bread in the house.  We did use to eat rice, potatoes, etc but always kept the skin on and brown rice generally although risotto was one of our favourites.  I have slowly become more convinced that unprocessed real food is the way to go and so was switching back to full fat versions.

We tried Atkins 10 years ago and I lost weight but my wife didn't probably because she was not exercising. We have done the 5:2 and that did work for both of us to a degree.  I have a slightly more settled job so could set specific days whereas my wife has a very varied job so some weeks could not manage.

I have been doing my commute fasted for a couple of years and can now generally do a 100km ride fasted at 25km/hr.

This year I decided to fully keto adapt partly to pull my wife along but mainly for the greater endurance on long distance riding.

So One week ago was the start day.  On the Thursday night I ate all the chocolate in the house (5 crunchies), the freezer was already full of low carb soups for lunches and the fridge was stocked with cream and butter.

Friday evening came home from work and my wife had not been well and I felt very ill.  I spent the next 36 hours in bed and decided this was real flu not atkins flu.  I continued with the diet though and have been below 50g of carbohydrate every day but one this week. My monitor arrived and blood ketone was 0.6. So success. Although total daily calorie intake has been low at 1000-1500 per day.

Yesterday however was awful!!  In the afternoon I suddenly started shivering uncontrollably as if I was running a raging temperature.  Was this the flu again or hypoglycaemia?  I took 2 paracetamol and 1/2teaspoon of sugar in a coffee and it all settled.  Then again in the middle of the night the same thing.  After 30 minutes of uncontrollable shivering I got up and forced myself to take 2 paracetamol and some raspberries. Within a few minutes everything settled again.

Was this hypoglycaemia? Sepsis? The flu?

I do not know.  Unfortunately I did not buy the glucose strips as I never expected this to happen.

Possibly, the afternoon was an insulin spike after lunch which probably had over 50% of my daily carbs which then pushed me into hypoglycaemia.  The night time, I don't know.

I may get the glucose strips in case it happens again. 

( As an aside, it does get easier to stick needles into oneself)

Now on Friday morning I

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2016, 12:01:56 pm
Drink broth, boullion or some form of stock. Couple of times a day if you're really suffering - and it sounds like you are!

Are you getting postural hypotension - ie, feeling faint when you stand up quickly? That's the biggest clue I get that I need to up the salt intake, or get some broth in me.

Switching over to full-keto causes your electrolytes to go out of whack - kidneys work very differently on very low carb, apparently. You'll adapt eventually - carb flu generally doesn't last long, and getting more salt helps a lot.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 29, 2016, 02:18:29 pm
Thanks Chris.  I have not really had the hypotension thing.  I have eaten significantly more today to make sure that I don't under eat and have added salt to everything!

I will keep you all informed.  If this gives me the ability to ride continuously for 400km with only pepperoni and Babble then that will be a win!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 29, 2016, 02:33:20 pm
I'm measuring ketones about once a week at the moment, consistently 1.5-2mmol/l

carbs <50g/day.

Weight has gone up by about 1.5kg, but I've also changed my exercise regime to include more strength work and less running, so not sure if that's anything to do with it.

No bread since the 2nd week in November.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2016, 05:27:42 pm
I thought it was just your wee'un rockin' the Ketones!

Well - presumably you get your test strips on prescription - which considering how much I've been known to pay for them, is most definitely a Good Thing!  :)

I'm not really monitoring this time around - I know what works, so I'm just doing it. Besides - I can tell by feel. There's an almost manic level of focus and clarity of thought that appears when your brain finally remembers how to burn ketones; it's almost a legal high  ;D.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 29, 2016, 07:08:13 pm
This morning I felt really good and clear headed.  Leg muscles a little wobbly on the way to work but not ill.  I made sure I had a much bigger breakfast and much bigger lunch.  So no problems until about 17:30 when the body started to feel shivery and less happy. 
Lets do a little experiment.  First of all take my temperature.  If I am fit and well then I should not get severe shivering unless my core temperature is climbing seriously.  Ear temp 36.5o so that pretty much rules out sepsis.

Then 1 teaspoon of honey and some strawberry mousse (home made with sugar free jelly but full cream carnation and lots of strawberries) and within 10 minutes I am beginning to feel much better.I am still well below my carbs limit for today so I think a big milky drink at night time should do the trick and I may even take some dextrose tablets to bed with me!

It has been a very interesting experiment so far and whilst as a surgeon I let other people deal with hypoglycaemia, I will have more insight, certainly scary and not nice.  My wife was particularly scared as she saw a slightly delusional confused rather ill husband last night who argued that nothing was wrong and wouldn't let the doctor be called!  Of course as the medic in the house anything I says goes absolutely with illness.

OK thanks for listening and reading.  I hope this will help somebody else
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 29, 2016, 08:51:23 pm
so after the sugar felt better but not perfect so had half a stockpot and now feel very warm!!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 29, 2016, 09:02:05 pm
I'm assuming you're not T1D? Or insulin resistant? If that was the case, could a reduction in that resistance be causing the hypoglycemia?

One other trick that we can use as T1s is to throw in a little sprint here and there to stimulate the liver to dump its stored glycogen's, you could give that a bash as well depending on circumstances.

An interval session on the rower this evening for example, pre exercise BG was 4.4, which would be too low to start aerobic exercise, but after the session it was 5.8. No carbs taken.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2016, 09:10:02 pm
so after the sugar felt better but not perfect so had half a stockpot and now feel very warm!!

Is that a Knorr stockpot? Only small amounts, so probably not a problem, but some form of sugar appears in the ingredients list four times (Glucose Syrup, Sugar, Caramel Syrup, Maltodextrin) !

There's a thread on insidious sugar in processed foods somewhere here...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on January 29, 2016, 09:18:56 pm
You don't need a thread about insidious sugar; just assume any processed foodstuff with multiple ingredients will contain sugar.
Be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 30, 2016, 09:31:18 am
Hi ChrisS Thanks, I hadn't specifically noticed it but everything I eat is being added to MFP at the moment so it tots up the various nutrients an displays them. So yesterday was 1761 Kcal with 99g of protein, 55g of carbohydrate and 136 of fat.  Milky drink last thing at night stopped all problems overnight.  Still not found all this energy but it is exactly one week today.

I am pretty sure I am not T1D but a degree of insulin resistance my well be true.  I may get a ride today or probably tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 30, 2016, 11:48:58 am
ketones 0.8 this morning!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 30, 2016, 12:20:21 pm
Looking good.

Phinney and Volek give an optimum level of about 1 - 3
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 30, 2016, 02:57:41 pm
As ever with these things, amounts of ketones swilling about in your blood/wee/breath (more swirling with the last one, I guess) can mislead.

I remember a shot of Sami Inkinen testing his blood ketones during their row from San Francisco to Hawaii, and it was 0.1mmol. Was he ketogenic? Hell yes - that's how they fuelled their ride - he was just burning it as fast or faster than his body could produce it.

Ketones in breath show your body is making it, but not burning it - same with wee. Keto-breath and free ketones in your wee largely go away once you adapt to using ketones instead of blood sugar.

There is also a fly-wheel effect. I can start a bike ride on 1.0mmol and when I finish, the level might be much the same - but I bet a few hours later it'll be much higher (I've seen a ketone level higher than my blood sugar level a few hours after finishing an audax) because the body carries on making the stuff after you've stopped using so much, so it "overshoots" the required level. Then you just pee out the excess - it doesn't get reabsorbed.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 30, 2016, 07:16:08 pm
absolutely, I tend to tes BG pre and ost exercise, and at intervals during prolonged exercise - don't want a mid-ride or run hypo - but ketones I've generally only tested in steady state i.e. before exercise rather than during or after.

I'm also testing blood ketone directly with some soon to expire test strips, I'll stop doing so as regularly when I think I'm well established.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ChillyPanda on February 14, 2016, 12:52:14 pm
I wonder if a strict keto diet is compatible with endurance-type activities, such as audax, in the longer term. If an extremely fit athlete achieves body mass that is very lean and predominantly muscle -  with negligible body fat - then where does the fat come from that can be converted into usable and immediate energy for the muscles?

I'm curious as I recently began adjusting my diet to low-carb foods. Not strictly yet, but aiming to limit carb intake to max 50gm/day. My objective is not weight-loss but rather to improve endurance on longer rides and avoid the dreaded bonk. I seem to have a low tolerance to sugary foods after a couple of hours on the bike.

As a benchmark, to monitor my progress, I rode 100km yesterday morning fasted. I've never done anything like this but wanted to find out how I'd cope. Pace was a steady 20kmh avg. Felt good for the first couple of hours. Third hour started to feel a bit tired and grumpy (couldn’t be bothered to wave to other cyclists!). By the fourth hour I was feeling decidedly not great, riding into a ditch at one point  :facepalm:. I had emergency rations in my bag but managed to hold-off until I got home. Strangely, when I got home I wasn't feeling ravenous immediately. Within an hour though I was seriously hungry.

I'll try it again in a month's time to see if there's any improvement.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 14, 2016, 12:56:30 pm
A *really* skinny person still has 5-10% of body weight as fat; that's around 4kg or more...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ChillyPanda on February 14, 2016, 01:07:57 pm
A *really* skinny person still has 5-10% of body weight as fat; that's around 4kg or more...

wow, that must be a lot of calories.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 14, 2016, 01:20:31 pm
It is!

A day without food will only use about 250g fat...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on February 14, 2016, 02:19:57 pm
I wonder if a strict keto diet is compatible with endurance-type activities, such as audax, in the longer term.

It is! ...for me at any rate.
Last year I gave the ketosis a hard push. I stuck to the rules militantly from the beginning of the year. I didn't start to see performance gains immediately. The weight loss was quick, but it took quite a while for my riding style on the bike to adapt to it. There were plenty of ups and downs to start off with. During the low points I seriously considered quitting it.
I got a good result on the 24hr TT (PB and club record) and had a very successful PBP, achieving a time that way exceeded my expectations.
While there are many factors to manage to ensure a good result on events like those I felt that the nutrition part was spot on. It is great not to have to have to carefully manage ones carb intake - too much = sick / too little = bonk.

Am I a changed man? Yes...well I was. As the year drew to a close and I didn't have any firm goals and events planned I eased off a bit: I don't miss beer, bread, pasta, potatoes, etc, but I have a real weakness for chocolate!
I'm trying to claw it back now, but it's not easy to make a such a dramatic change to one's lifestyle. I'd definitely recommend giving it a solid try out to see if it works for you...and if you feel that you can stick to it.
In my experience though you have to commit 100% to see the results.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 14, 2016, 10:01:58 pm
It is really interesting the comments about the power initially.  I note that ChrisS has said the same.  My problem is working out what is LCHF and what is the leftover from the worst flu I have ever had.  Hopefully I can be ready for the Easter Arrow.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 16, 2016, 11:05:48 pm

Am I a changed man? Yes...well I was. As the year drew to a close and I didn't have any firm goals and events planned I eased off a bit: I don't miss beer, bread, pasta, potatoes, etc, but I have a real weakness for chocolate!


Truffles are easy to make, 100%-85% cocoa solids chocolate, double cream.  Make a ganache, add flavourings, nuts etc, roll in cocoa, cover in more dark choc etc and off you go.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on February 16, 2016, 11:28:34 pm

Am I a changed man? Yes...well I was. As the year drew to a close and I didn't have any firm goals and events planned I eased off a bit: I don't miss beer, bread, pasta, potatoes, etc, but I have a real weakness for chocolate!


Truffles are easy to make, 100%-85% cocoa solids chocolate, double cream.  Make a ganache, add flavourings, nuts etc, roll in cocoa, cover in more dark choc etc and off you go.

Oh I'm well down the road on the search for the ultimate chocolate substitute! Trouble it is they're a bit of a gateway drug, next it's 90% Lindt, 85%, 70% and before you know it you've eaten a whole box of cheap and nasty assorted chocs with sugary centres.  :sick:
Seriously though one of the major pluses of this whole escapade is one's sensitivity to sweetness. Evil items start to taste sickly sweet.
This has led me to be very happy with just a teaspoon of cacao nibs to chew on.

My wife makes a very successful high fat chocolate substitute: Butter, coconut oil, ground almond, bit of cocoa (I forget the exact quantities). It gets heated and mixed and poured into silicon chocolate moulds and placed into the fridge to set. As the primary ingredients are butter and coconut oil they are not stable a room temperature for long. Very tasty though.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 17, 2016, 06:35:06 am
I have an allergy to Cocoa. Can’t eat chocolate ‘candy’. Banging headaches.
Tried Carob bars as a substitute. Taste strange.

What I found is Morrisons “Cheap shit” ‘M Savers’ 30p per 100g 'milk' chocolate has so low ( 28% ) cocoa solids, it hardly gives me a headache. I DID get some headache, so I mix some crushed paracetamol in the cake mix that the M Savers chocolate is going to cover.
Helps me sleep too.  :thumbsup:

Maybe that’s why I’m so dozy on some events cus I’m loaded with paracetamol / chocolate cake.  ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 17, 2016, 07:09:44 am
Hi the sloth
Would your wife share the recipe if we asked nicely?  Please.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 17, 2016, 09:55:47 am
I haven't tried mrs sloth's chocolates but I reckon it's a fat bomb recipe. There's loads.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 17, 2016, 10:26:36 am
I'd like to try some Pemmican as trail food for long rides. It's not a readily available thing in the UK, but there are lots of recipes available online. Sadly, once it says stuff like "render the fat for the next 6 hours" my CBA-fu drains away. I don't even know (or care, TBH) what rendering is, but it seems to be a key step in the process.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 17, 2016, 10:28:32 am
Is it where you smear it on a wall then throw small stones at it?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Si S on February 17, 2016, 10:32:00 am
I'd like to try some Pemmican as trail food for long rides. It's not a readily available thing in the UK, but there are lots of recipes available online. Sadly, once it says stuff like "render the fat for the next 6 hours" my CBA-fu drains away. I don't even know (or care, TBH) what rendering is, but it seems to be a key step in the process.

leave it on a low heat Chris and then strain it. You'll be pleased to hear once you've done it the clarified fat will keep for about 6 weeks in the fridge or a year or so in the freezer.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 17, 2016, 10:32:30 am
I'd like to try some Pemmican as trail food for long rides. It's not a readily available thing in the UK, but there are lots of recipes available online. Sadly, once it says stuff like "render the fat for the next 6 hours" my CBA-fu drains away. I don't even know (or care, TBH) what rendering is, but it seems to be a key step in the process.
simmer down
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 17, 2016, 10:34:04 am
Is it where you smear it on a wall then throw small stones at it?

I think so, yes. Pretty sure I saw a chef on TV doing it once. Looked nice 'til he painted over it.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 17, 2016, 11:04:05 am
BTW Chris- if you get pemmican out on a ride and expect me to eat it, you know what I'll be saying...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 17, 2016, 11:23:35 am
BTW Chris- if you get pemmican out on a ride and expect me to eat it, you know what I'll be saying...

"Mmmm... gimme some of your bacony goodness!"

OK, maybe not  ;D.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 17, 2016, 11:34:26 am
you could just go with pork scratchings and a bag of nuts.

My latest low carb chocs were a 100% cocoa and double cream ganache, a bit of brandy, chopped salted pecans, shredded toasted coconut.  Spoon into small paper case, allow to set and top with melted 85% cocoa chocolate.  I was a bit heavy on the brandy ;D

The next batch has marmalade vodka in it.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on February 17, 2016, 09:02:11 pm
Would your wife share the recipe if we asked nicely?  Please.

The basic:
30g butter
30g coconut oil
10g xylitol
15-20g coco powder (need the good stuff, the cheap unfortunately tastes cheap)
Melt and mix, pour into silicon moulds and refrigerate to set

There's another variety where one add's ground almonds to the mix (about 10g). Can also place chopped browned almonds or cocoa nibs in the moulds prior to pouring in the liquid.

I'm keen to try out the pemmican, but like you not that keen to make it. I've seen that a commercial  "pemmican" bar is available in the US, but it looks like it contains a lot of undesirable stuff along with the fat.
I rely on droëwors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dro%C3%ABwors) for long rides. It tastes good and is easy to get hold of. Fat content is very high.
I did give pork scratchings a good try out. Not that keen. They make me feel sick, or rather I the idea of them makes me feel sick. Once the bag is open and they are living in a top tube bag they go soft and soggy pretty quickly which doesn't help.

On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ChillyPanda on February 17, 2016, 09:24:56 pm
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese

So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?

What distances can you go on this?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on February 17, 2016, 09:48:56 pm
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese

So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?

What distances can you go on this?

In addition to the "snacks"  of droëwors, almonds (https://flic.kr/p/xjvz6M) and cheese for longer rides I take "food" ("Banting bread" made with ground seeds, eggs, with added cheese & bacon (https://flic.kr/p/xjvCt8) - all very high fat, low carb)
Nuun or High 5 Zero electrolyte in the bottles.

I've found I can go pretty much as far as required. On the 24hr TT pretty much only the above items - the exception was half a sweet potato.
On PBP I carried and ate those same items. I ate my own food  until Carhaix - 500ish km. I then started supplementing it with control food (trying to be as low carb as the selection allowed, which admittedly was at times not very). The reason for this was solely the quantity of food I was carrying was not enough for the complete trip. In hindsight I think I would have gotten a better result if I'd carried even more of my own food and avoided the control food stops.

When I was a carb eater I couldn't make it to the front door without breakfast. At my ketosis peak 100km fasted rides were no problem.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 17, 2016, 09:58:40 pm
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese

So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?

What distances can you go on this?

Speaking for myself - audax distances (and speeds); so typically 10 hour 200s, 15 hour 300s, that kind of thing. No need for carbs, although they're sometimes a nice treat (ice cream on a hot day?).

Racing speeds might need more adaptation, but 200W steady output seems possible at 90%+ fat burning for some, at least.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 17, 2016, 09:59:46 pm
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese

So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?

What distances can you go on this?
Almonds are 22% carbohydrate
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on February 17, 2016, 10:07:53 pm
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese

So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?

What distances can you go on this?
Almonds are 22% carbohydrate

True. I think you'll be very hard pressed to eat literally zero carbs. Not because I feel they are required, but there are not a great many foods that one would want to eat solely which are pure fat/protein.

So probably a more accurate answer to ChillyPanda is I ride on low carb, rather than no carb.
...I'm not exactly scoffing a sack of almonds though. A small handful for a 200km is fine for me.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 17, 2016, 10:31:04 pm
For me it's a balance of insulin vs carbs.

I turn the pump down to 30% of normal background about three hours ahead of aerobic exercise which I've found to be a good compormise between not letting blood glucose get too high and not having too much circulating insulin (I may try 20% this weekend as a trial).  With an active insulin duration (in my system) of about 4 hours, I generally see a big drop in BG in the first 90 mins, requiring 30g carbs/hr. Essentially higher insulin sensitivity with exercise plus the GLU4 receptor activation.

 I then see things stabilise a bit more so I guess I'm drawing on more fats and gluoneogenesis/stored glycogen. 

I think the lowest I've got away with post diagnosis was three fig rolls on a two hour ride.

Carbs during exercise are OK as they do not contribute to BG elevation, but just maintenance and fuelling.  That's not to say though that they are my first choice.  Getting food in though is easy as I stop every 45 mins for a blood test and eat at the same point if necessary.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 18, 2016, 07:27:12 am
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese

So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?

What distances can you go on this?

In addition to the "snacks"  of droëwors, almonds (https://flic.kr/p/xjvz6M) and cheese for longer rides I take "food" ("Banting bread" made with ground seeds, eggs, with added cheese & bacon (https://flic.kr/p/xjvCt8) - all very high fat, low carb)
Nuun or High 5 Zero electrolyte in the bottles.

I've found I can go pretty much as far as required. On the 24hr TT pretty much only the above items - the exception was half a sweet potato.
On PBP I carried and ate those same items. I ate my own food  until Carhaix - 500ish km. I then started supplementing it with control food (trying to be as low carb as the selection allowed, which admittedly was at times not very). The reason for this was solely the quantity of food I was carrying was not enough for the complete trip. In hindsight I think I would have gotten a better result if I'd carried even more of my own food and avoided the control food stops.

When I was a carb eater I couldn't make it to the front door without breakfast. At my ketosis peak 100km fasted rides were no problem.

'Banting bread' named after William Banting, I assume,,  ???
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on February 18, 2016, 11:50:38 am
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese

So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?

What distances can you go on this?

Speaking for myself - audax distances (and speeds); so typically 10 hour 200s, 15 hour 300s, that kind of thing. No need for carbs, although they're sometimes a nice treat (ice cream on a hot day?).

Racing speeds might need more adaptation, but 200W steady output seems possible at 90%+ fat burning for some, at least.


Dr Ferrari has an article on his site where he analyses Nibali's performance during one TdF stage and hypothesizes potentially around 300 watts on fat consumption. Clearly Nibali is (a bit of) an outlier, but Ferrari quotes LCHF experts in giving his view.

200 watts steady seems much more than required to a 10 hour 200?

Mike
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 18, 2016, 12:36:40 pm
My math model.

16 deg C, No wind, 200km circular, 1500m climbing.

10:00:00 duration including stops of 3 x 15 minutes.

Cruising Watts on the flat ( 25 kmh ) = 114

Overall average Watts = 92.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 18, 2016, 02:10:44 pm
To low. I've typically seen up to around 5MJ output over 200km. More like 150W given 8.5h moving time.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 18, 2016, 03:24:43 pm
To low. I've typically seen up to around 5MJ output over 200km. More like 150W given 8.5h moving time.

Where did the 5MJ come from?  Not that I dispute it, but I've looked at Garmin vs turbo, or garmin vs rowing monitor and there are large discrepancies.  It all depends on the algorithms in use.

The other thing is that 5MJ energy expended, or 5MJ put into the pedals, the human being being less than 100% efficient in energy conversion.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 18, 2016, 03:32:56 pm
Source was powertap wheel - output at the wheel hub. Consistently between 4MJ and 5MJ for a 200k.

Power output varies a lot dependent on terrain. With that wheel I've seen as high as around 295W for 5 minutes on a steep climb. That kind of effort is above threshold for me and would probably be entirely carb dependent.

My session on Monday was 3x9x50s at 349W. 135% FTP. Anyone following LCHF able to comment on how that kind of session goes for them?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on February 18, 2016, 04:01:36 pm
I did 83 miles on Tuesday with a moving average over 15mph and an overall average of 14.2. My average power was shown as 161 watts, but that may be a bit out due to Garmin idiosyncrasy (or idiocy).

Dropping to 12mph would save a bit on the average I'm sure, but the numbers are broadly consistent.

Mike
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on February 18, 2016, 04:03:23 pm
Source was powertap wheel - output at the wheel hub. Consistently between 4MJ and 5MJ for a 200k.

Power output varies a lot dependent on terrain. With that wheel I've seen as high as around 295W for 5 minutes on a steep climb. That kind of effort is above threshold for me and would probably be entirely carb dependent.

My session on Monday was 3x9x50s at 349W. 135% FTP. Anyone following LCHF able to comment on how that kind of session goes for them?

I think the challenge is how to perform at higher outputs on low carb. I imagine that the optimum is to be very efficient on fat, amd to be able to access carb when additional effort is required.

Mike
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 18, 2016, 04:42:57 pm
Source was powertap wheel - output at the wheel hub. Consistently between 4MJ and 5MJ for a 200k.

Power output varies a lot dependent on terrain. With that wheel I've seen as high as around 295W for 5 minutes on a steep climb. That kind of effort is above threshold for me and would probably be entirely carb dependent.

My session on Monday was 3x9x50s at 349W. 135% FTP. Anyone following LCHF able to comment on how that kind of session goes for them?

Not that directly in terms of bike efforts. 

Experience of intense weights sessions for strength endurance is that my blood sugar rises with them 5.2 to 7.0 recently
A 1-2-3-4-3-2-1 minute pyramid on the indoor rower, equal rest saw my BG go from 4.4 to 5.8
Running intervals sees a similar sort of rise.

The main reason is adrenaline, which causes a dump of the stored glycogens from the liver, to fund what is essentially the fight or flight primitive response i.e. a short intense burst of energy, rather than the fat fuelled steady plodding.  The released glycogen can then be re-absorbed causing a later BG crash.

As long as you have that adrenaline response you can do those short bursts, and I would not say my erg pyramid was slower than expected based on curent level of training in that.  The pre-Christmas running intervals were where they should have been.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 19, 2016, 07:52:00 am
Source was powertap wheel - output at the wheel hub. Consistently between 4MJ and 5MJ for a 200k.

Power output varies a lot dependent on terrain. With that wheel I've seen as high as around 295W for 5 minutes on a steep climb. That kind of effort is above threshold for me and would probably be entirely carb dependent.

My session on Monday was 3x9x50s at 349W. 135% FTP. Anyone following LCHF able to comment on how that kind of session goes for them?

Not that directly in terms of bike efforts. 

Experience of intense weights sessions for strength endurance is that my blood sugar rises with them 5.2 to 7.0 recently
A 1-2-3-4-3-2-1 minute pyramid on the indoor rower, equal rest saw my BG go from 4.4 to 5.8
Running intervals sees a similar sort of rise.

The main reason is adrenaline, which causes a dump of the stored glycogens from the liver, to fund what is essentially the fight or flight primitive response i.e. a short intense burst of energy, rather than the fat fuelled steady plodding.  The released glycogen can then be re-absorbed causing a later BG crash.

As long as you have that adrenaline response you can do those short bursts, and I would not say my erg pyramid was slower than expected based on curent level of training in that.  The pre-Christmas running intervals were where they should have been.

This is a discussion for another thread.

The Wattage required to travel along the flat through still air is estimated by performing a down hill freewheel, measuring the vehicle's maximum achievable speed for the gradient.

10 mph - 50 W
12.5 mph - 70 W
15 mph - 110 W
17.5 mph - 155 W
20 mph - 220 W
25 mph - 395 W

CdA = 4.26

Good enough for me.

I'm building a fixed from an old MTB. Slick tyres.

With 44 ring and 20 sprocket ( 53" ), it should give me 12 mph at 76 rpm for 80 - 85 Watts on the flat.
Or, 13.5 mph at 85 rpm for 100 Watts.

Or 9 mph ( 3 x Walking pace ) at 57 rpm for less than 40 Watts.

"Hey, THREE times the walking pace of a horse for the same exertion as me walking. These bicycle contraptions might catch on!"
Good ole J.K.Starley.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 22, 2016, 08:58:53 pm
For those who are practising the LCHF diet.

i seem to babe getting happier at the audax riding.  88km on friday and 100 on Sunday with no bother.  kept heart rate below 130 for the vast majority and soared round the 100.

However what do you do when doing a training ride.  I did a turbo session this evening heart rate in the intervals between 155 and 175 so pretty much glycogen burning and/or anaerobic.  So do you then just eat your normal LCHF diet and push the body to find its own glycogen through gluconeogenesis or do you take some carbs to refill your glycogen?

Second, are you using some form of protein after the turbo session or again just eating normally?

thanks  for your help.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 22, 2016, 09:35:56 pm
Protein afterwards. Otherwise as per usual. You really don't need many carbs at all.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 22, 2016, 09:49:37 pm
Thanks fboab, That was what I was leaning towards.  I do find this fascinating.  3 slices of bacon and 2 eggs this morning.  Double espresso with double cream x3 during the day.  Broccoli soup, 3 Babybel and a small pepperami for lunch and I am feeling fine after a fairly intense hour on the turbo.  pProbably have a sugar free jelly and some more double cream and that will be all today.  Totals out at about 1300 calories and I do not feel hungry.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 22, 2016, 10:11:57 pm
Fad

Look at the blood values of those that are on this diet - high in cholesterol and saturated fat.

We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

Ketosis is not a healthy state to be in, the vast majority of people I've seen need stimulants to help them through their day as they cannot function, the body is designed for glucose consumption. Don't confuse weight loss with your body dumping a shit load of water because you are not taking on carbs which need water in order to metabolise (roughly 3g to every 1g of carbs)

Look at those that advocate this piece of shit diet that rapes the natural world, contributes to global warming, world hunger and results in a billion + animals needlessly being killed a year. We grow enough grain to feed 10+ billion people yet half of this is given to livestock, which we then kill and eat - nice one.

Prof Tim Noakes - diabetic
Dr Loren  Cordain - Fat, looks ill.
Jimmy Moore - Fat, blood values are shocking.
Mark Sisson - Heart Attack
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 22, 2016, 10:28:56 pm
Hello WCTD :)

There are lots of possibilities as to why you're struggling. First and foremost, a couple of weeks isn't that long - it might take a couple of months to fully adapt.

The good news is, there's lots you can do to ease the path to adaptation. Firstly, re-read this thread - follow the links various of us have posted; there's lots of info out there but it takes some digging to find it.

Don't be afraid to eat more fat. Fat helps satiety - which will reduce your hunger issues.

Drink plenty of water - and put salt on everything! Turns out, salt is really only a problem (hypertension) when it's in conjunction with carbs. Once you reduce carbs enough, your body will dump salt (and also potassium, and magnesium) and this loss of electrolytes can make you feel pretty crappy ( so called "keto flu" ) so keep your electrolytes coming.

Don't stress the loss of performance. It does come back - your body will learn, it will adapt. I've been low carb since New Year, and after a month of being pretty rubbish, I'm now happily lifting weights, and riding longer distances.

As they say on reddit/keto - "Keep calm and Keto on"

Nope, that's Cortisol running through your system which as a result your T cells are suppressed thus making you ill
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 22, 2016, 10:33:26 pm
I am not going to argue with you about the meat, but actually our protein is decreasing as we eat the diet.  as you become less hungry you naturally eat less and that specifically includes protein which can lead to gluconeogenesis.

Your comment about ketosis being unnatural and most people needing stimulants is just wrong and is the exact opposite of the reality.

My understanding is that Tim noakes was either pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic and has now reversed that with his diet.

You need to read a bit more about cholesterol.  Cholesterol is not 'bad', it is the ratio of LDL and HDL.  This normalises on LCHF diet.

Anyway we will have to agree to differ on this one.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 22, 2016, 10:38:24 pm
Fad

Look at the blood values of those that are on this diet - high in cholesterol and saturated fat.

We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

Ketosis is not a healthy state to be in, the vast majority of people I've seen need stimulants to help them through their day as they cannot function, the body is designed for glucose consumption. Don't confuse weight loss with your body dumping a shit load of water because you are not taking on carbs which need water in order to metabolise (roughly 3g to every 1g of carbs)

Look at those that advocate this piece of shit diet that rapes the natural world, contributes to global warming, world hunger and results in a billion + animals needlessly being killed a year. We grow enough grain to feed 10+ billion people yet half of this is given to livestock, which we then kill and eat - nice one.

Prof Tim Noakes - diabetic
Dr Loren  Cordain - Fat, looks ill.
Jimmy Moore - Fat, blood values are shocking.
Mark Sisson - Heart Attack

What a load of unscientific rubbish.  Humans have only been cultivating crops since about 7,000 BC, so our digestive systems haven't had nearly enough time to evolve to deal with such a diet properly.  Bearing in mind the body can only store a very limited amount of glycogen, it's clearly not evolved to handle glucose or any form of sugar properly.  Ketosis is a perfectly normal and natural state to be in, and is what humans survived on for hundreds of thousands of years.

About the only vaguely accurate thing you've stated is about feeding grain to fatten animals.  However if someone wants to be a vegetarian in ketosis, it's perfectly possible.

I'd be far more concerned about the waste of resources in producing High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 22, 2016, 10:45:16 pm
I am not going to argue with you about the meat, but actually our protein is decreasing as we eat the diet.  as you become less hungry you naturally eat less and that specifically includes protein which can lead to gluconeogenesis.

Your comment about ketosis being unnatural and most people needing stimulants is just wrong and is the exact opposite of the reality.

My understanding is that Tim noakes was either pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic and has now reversed that with his diet.

You need to read a bit more about cholesterol.  Cholesterol is not 'bad', it is the ratio of LDL and HDL.  This normalises on LCHF diet.

Anyway we will have to agree to differ on this one.

Eating less meat still contributes to the undue suffering of a billion + animals every year. 'Eating less meat' with all due respect is some half measure bullshit.

Ketosis is an unhealthy state to be in, why you would think otherwise I'm not quite sure. I'll state my point again, the body, i.e the trillion + cells run on glucose - not fat. So why an earth would you want to substitute giving your body whole foods carbs (which it desires) in exchange for fat.

Choloresterol is not bad?!?!  :facepalm:

And I don't see how Noakes can reverse this, when it has been proven with medical science that meat has the same insulin load as eating pure glucose.

And we won't agree to disagree at all. Your ignorance regarding what is essentially the atkins diet reworked is contributing to climate change, world hunger, and the unnecessary killing of animals.

You crack on though and be your like your 'hunter gatherer' ancestors hunting meat - as you drive down the local supermarket to buy some more animals products.

Question:

When was the last time you actually hunted for meat, are have you just been suckered/socially engineered in to an utterly bullshit fad diet?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 22, 2016, 10:48:34 pm
Fad

Look at the blood values of those that are on this diet - high in cholesterol and saturated fat.

We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

Ketosis is not a healthy state to be in, the vast majority of people I've seen need stimulants to help them through their day as they cannot function, the body is designed for glucose consumption. Don't confuse weight loss with your body dumping a shit load of water because you are not taking on carbs which need water in order to metabolise (roughly 3g to every 1g of carbs)

Look at those that advocate this piece of shit diet that rapes the natural world, contributes to global warming, world hunger and results in a billion + animals needlessly being killed a year. We grow enough grain to feed 10+ billion people yet half of this is given to livestock, which we then kill and eat - nice one.

Prof Tim Noakes - diabetic
Dr Loren  Cordain - Fat, looks ill.
Jimmy Moore - Fat, blood values are shocking.
Mark Sisson - Heart Attack

What a load of unscientific rubbish.  Humans have only been cultivating crops since about 7,000 BC, so our digestive systems haven't had nearly enough time to evolve to deal with such a diet properly.  Bearing in mind the body can only store a very limited amount of glycogen, it's clearly not evolved to handle glucose or any form of sugar properly.  Ketosis is a perfectly normal and natural state to be in, and is what humans survived on for hundreds of thousands of years.

About the only vaguely accurate thing you've stated is about feeding grain to fatten animals.  However if someone wants to be a vegetarian in ketosis, it's perfectly possible.

I'd be far more concerned about the waste of resources in producing High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Suggest you do some more reading Adam, the China study for one.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 22, 2016, 11:01:34 pm
It's certainly unscientific to believe that humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years. Evidence goes back as far as at least 100,000 years ago (and even before that was discovered, 23,000 years).

It's also unscientific to believe that humans aren't adapted to consuming carbohydrates. Or did we end up with 3x the copies of the AMY1 gene as the chimpanzee by accident?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 22, 2016, 11:05:35 pm
I am not going to argue with you about the meat, but actually our protein is decreasing as we eat the diet.  as you become less hungry you naturally eat less and that specifically includes protein which can lead to gluconeogenesis.

Your comment about ketosis being unnatural and most people needing stimulants is just wrong and is the exact opposite of the reality.

My understanding is that Tim noakes was either pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic and has now reversed that with his diet.

You need to read a bit more about cholesterol.  Cholesterol is not 'bad', it is the ratio of LDL and HDL.  This normalises on LCHF diet.

Anyway we will have to agree to differ on this one.

Eating less meat still contributes to the undue suffering of a billion + animals every year. 'Eating less meat' with all due respect is some half measure bullshit.

Ketosis is an unhealthy state to be in, why you would think otherwise I'm not quite sure. I'll state my point again, the body, i.e the trillion + cells run on glucose - not fat. So why an earth would you want to substitute giving your body whole foods carbs (which it desires) in exchange for fat.

Choloresterol is not bad?!?!  :facepalm:

And I don't see how Noakes can reverse this, when it has been proven with medical science that meat has the same insulin load as eating pure glucose.

And we won't agree to disagree at all. Your ignorance regarding what is essentially the atkins diet reworked is contributing to climate change, world hunger, and the unnecessary killing of animals.

You crack on though and be your like your 'hunter gatherer' ancestors hunting meat - as you drive down the local supermarket to buy some more animals products.

Question:

When was the last time you actually hunted for meat, are have you just been suckered/socially engineered in to an utterly bullshit fad diet?

Because a lchf diet, not high protein has been clinically shown to improve glycaemic control and reduce complications in type 1 diabetics.

Or do you also object to coconut oil in my coffee and rapeseed or olive oil on my salads?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 22, 2016, 11:17:42 pm
I am not going to argue with you about the meat, but actually our protein is decreasing as we eat the diet.  as you become less hungry you naturally eat less and that specifically includes protein which can lead to gluconeogenesis.

Your comment about ketosis being unnatural and most people needing stimulants is just wrong and is the exact opposite of the reality.

My understanding is that Tim noakes was either pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic and has now reversed that with his diet.

You need to read a bit more about cholesterol.  Cholesterol is not 'bad', it is the ratio of LDL and HDL.  This normalises on LCHF diet.

Anyway we will have to agree to differ on this one.

Eating less meat still contributes to the undue suffering of a billion + animals every year. 'Eating less meat' with all due respect is some half measure bullshit.

Ketosis is an unhealthy state to be in, why you would think otherwise I'm not quite sure. I'll state my point again, the body, i.e the trillion + cells run on glucose - not fat. So why an earth would you want to substitute giving your body whole foods carbs (which it desires) in exchange for fat.

Choloresterol is not bad?!?!  :facepalm:

And I don't see how Noakes can reverse this, when it has been proven with medical science that meat has the same insulin load as eating pure glucose.

And we won't agree to disagree at all. Your ignorance regarding what is essentially the atkins diet reworked is contributing to climate change, world hunger, and the unnecessary killing of animals.

You crack on though and be your like your 'hunter gatherer' ancestors hunting meat - as you drive down the local supermarket to buy some more animals products.

Question:

When was the last time you actually hunted for meat, are have you just been suckered/socially engineered in to an utterly bullshit fad diet?

Because a lchf diet, not high protein has been clinically shown to improve glycaemic control and reduce complications in type 1 diabetics.

Or do you also object to coconut oil in my coffee and rapeseed or olive oil on my salads?

It's been proven that the fat in animal products is what contributes to insulin resistance.

No surprise that you need coffee to get you through your day.

Hardly surprising that you have not addressed any of the other points that I made.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 23, 2016, 06:56:57 am
I don't have insulin resistance, I have one of the lowest insulin doses I know of per g of carb ingested.

You are showing your ignorance here by conflating Type 2 where insulin resistance is a feature with Type 1 which is auto immune and essentially is zero or very little endogenous insulin production.

As for the rest of your post, that is entirely highly opiniated and intended to insult.   Again, show me a scientific study that shows better clinical outcomes for TYPE 1 diabetics on a hight refined carbohydrate diet. 

Please explain to me why you think you should be allowed to condemn me to a higher risk of diabetic complications due to your moral stance?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 23, 2016, 07:05:58 am
I think it is clear LMT is simply trolling for the sake of trolling.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 23, 2016, 07:10:31 am
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.

Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 23, 2016, 12:03:59 pm
I don't have insulin resistance, I have one of the lowest insulin doses I know of per g of carb ingested.

You are showing your ignorance here by conflating Type 2 where insulin resistance is a feature with Type 1 which is auto immune and essentially is zero or very little endogenous insulin production.

As for the rest of your post, that is entirely highly opiniated and intended to insult.   Again, show me a scientific study that shows better clinical outcomes for TYPE 1 diabetics on a hight refined carbohydrate diet. 

Please explain to me why you think you should be allowed to condemn me to a higher risk of diabetic complications due to your moral stance?

Go Vegan Brao

http://www.diabetesdailygrind.com/type1vegandiet/
http://www.forksoverknives.com/type-1-diabetes-vegan-diet/
http://www.pcrm.org/health/health-topics/diet-and-diabetes-recipes-for-success
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 23, 2016, 12:07:36 pm
I think it is clear LMT is simply trolling for the sake of trolling.

I don't believe I am.

Reinforcing peoples bad eating habits has lead to a dramatic increase in heart disease, diabetes, cancers and osteoporosis.

Which incidentally can be higher in a ketone diet as the body leeches calcium out of the bones to make calcium phosphate to neutralise the acidic ph level which increases as ketones are broken down.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 23, 2016, 12:08:43 pm
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.

Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.

Really?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6wY_zIg74vw/Vb54kEc8J0I/AAAAAAAAAcE/WlWRkGU2G0k/s1600/comparative%2Banatomy%2Bof%2Bfrugivore.jpg
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on February 23, 2016, 12:42:47 pm
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.

Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.

+1

We are super adaptable.

Our main system for producing energy (ATP) for our cells is the aerobic system; it's a pretty complicated pathway but our bodies can use carbs, fat & protein  for this using The Krebs Cycle. At higher power outputs the higher oxygen demand for burning fat makes glucose/glycogen a preferable choice where power matters. (There are other means of producing energy Phospo Creatine system, Cori Cycle etc).

Once your source is real whole food possible to construct a healthy diet with all types of macros.

On ketosis (which I've tried but don't practice) not sure how one can say definitely that it's unhealthy; how could we have evolved without it? During periods of starvation, winter with low plant supply etc where would our brain get the necessary 600 cals a day or so for the 1kg organ on top of our shoulders that will only run on glucose or glucose/ketones. Without the adaption to enter ketosis (or some other back up system) how could we have survived times of scarcity?

While a love  of nature/animals is an admirable quality, using it as a basis for asserting what is the correct way for all people to eat all of the time  leaves one a little vulnerable to an accusation of bias.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 23, 2016, 02:08:47 pm
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.

Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.

+1

We are super adaptable.

Our main system for producing energy (ATP) for our cells is the aerobic system; it's a pretty complicated pathway but our bodies can use carbs, fat & protein  for this using The Krebs Cycle. At higher power outputs the higher oxygen demand for burning fat makes glucose/glycogen a preferable choice where power matters. (There are other means of producing energy Phospo Creatine system, Cori Cycle etc).

Once your source is real whole food possible to construct a healthy diet with all types of macros.

On ketosis (which I've tried but don't practice) not sure how one can say definitely that it's unhealthy; how could we have evolved without it? During periods of starvation, winter with low plant supply etc where would our brain get the necessary 600 cals a day or so for the 1kg organ on top of our shoulders that will only run on glucose or glucose/ketones. Without the adaption to enter ketosis (or some other back up system) how could we have survived times of scarcity?

While a love  of nature/animals is an admirable quality, using it as a basis for asserting what is the correct way for all people to eat all of the time  leaves one a little vulnerable to an accusation of bias.

Totally agree.

There are human haplatypes who don't eat plant derived starches. Inuit Indians for example who survive on seal, walrus and fish. They got an obesity problem when European R1b haplatypes brought corn, wheat and chocolate filled foods to Alaska.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 23, 2016, 02:12:28 pm
"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast."

Need we say more?

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 23, 2016, 02:28:48 pm
Other than religion is bunk?

I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way.  Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.

The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 23, 2016, 02:31:27 pm
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 23, 2016, 02:53:39 pm
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 23, 2016, 02:57:34 pm
"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast."

Need we say more?

and Esau sold his birthright for a mess of potage cos he was famished after a morning of chasing food to hunt.
Biblical 'bonk'.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 23, 2016, 02:59:20 pm
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 23, 2016, 03:06:43 pm
anyone seen those experiments on mice where they feed them just the right fat/carb combination, usually something like cheesecake and they just gorge on it?

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 23, 2016, 03:07:12 pm
I am not convinced that 'just eating the carbs' will make someone fat.
Starchy carbs unenhanced by either sugar or fat are too BORING to eat in HUGE quantities.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on February 23, 2016, 03:14:31 pm
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.

Fat being essential and carbs not is not really helpful.

The amount of essential fatty acids we need in diet is a tiny percentage of any person's required calorific intake; other than that tiny percentage and protein (ignoring mirconutrients for argument sake) nothing else is essential, except we'd starve.... So we have to eat either fat and or carbs

There are plenty of populations who eat diets with very very high percentages of carbs(Stephan Gueynet has a good article on some south Pacific tribe who survive on super high carbs, predominantly sweet potato) and are predominantly lean, same also for Inuits who eat very little. Chris Masterjohn has a really interesting video on youtube where he discusses how different populations vary in the amount of receptors for starch they have in mouth; from memory as low as 3 to up to 15. Those populations with higher amounts have a very different insulin response to carbs.

The way this thing gets polarised doesn't generally lead to a helpful discussion.

Anyway I'm out
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 23, 2016, 03:19:25 pm
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.

So the odd billion + people in Asia and Africa on a diet consisting of Rice, Beans, Potatoes, Lentils, Fruits & veg are fat and sick?!? Really?!? And you think I'm trolling?

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 23, 2016, 03:22:24 pm
Other than religion is bunk?

I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way.  Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.

The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.

Look up the amount of grain fed to animals (but could be given to humans) who we then kill and eat...look up the amount of CO2 emissions given off by livestock agriculture...look at the amount of water we use for said industry...look at the programmes which document the amount of pain that we inflict on animals for no good reason.

All of this is completely unnecessary, apart from Vitamin B12 there is nothing you cannot get from a diet which excludes animal products.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 23, 2016, 03:25:20 pm
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.

So the odd billion + people in Asia and Africa on a diet consisting of Rice, Beans, Potatoes, Lentils, Fruits & veg are fat and sick?!? Really?!? And you think I'm trolling?

T2 diabetes is extremely prevalent amongst the South Asian population exactly because of that diet
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 23, 2016, 03:26:21 pm
Other than religion is bunk?

I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way.  Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.

The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.
Which reinforces my view that there are too many humans

And before you start moralising, I prefer fish and game.
Look up the amount of grain fed to animals (but could be given to humans) who we then kill and eat...look up the amount of CO2 emissions given off by livestock agriculture...look at the amount of water we use for said industry...look at the programmes which document the amount of pain that we inflict on animals for no good reason.

All of this is completely unnecessary, apart from Vitamin B12 there is nothing you cannot get from a diet which excludes animal products.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 23, 2016, 03:43:55 pm
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.

So the odd billion + people in Asia and Africa on a diet consisting of Rice, Beans, Potatoes, Lentils, Fruits & veg are fat and sick?!? Really?!? And you think I'm trolling?

T2 diabetes is extremely prevalent amongst the South Asian population exactly because of that diet

No it's because they are 2nd and 3rd gen growing up in the UK on the SAD.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 23, 2016, 03:44:37 pm
Other than religion is bunk?

I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way.  Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.

The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.
Which reinforces my view that there are too many humans

And before you start moralising, I prefer fish and game.
Look up the amount of grain fed to animals (but could be given to humans) who we then kill and eat...look up the amount of CO2 emissions given off by livestock agriculture...look at the amount of water we use for said industry...look at the programmes which document the amount of pain that we inflict on animals for no good reason.

All of this is completely unnecessary, apart from Vitamin B12 there is nothing you cannot get from a diet which excludes animal products.

Strawman alert, argue the point.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 23, 2016, 03:52:09 pm
"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast."

Need we say more?
Yebbut Cain killed Abel. Therefore we are all descended from the tiller of the soil. This and the story of Esau and Jacob are taken by some to indicate the greater advancement of agriculture over pastoralism or hunting, by others to show the original superiority of hunting over growing food, and by still others to be a distant memory of the Neanderthals.

I expect though that 'fat' is the only dietary component (as distinct from food, like eg 'mess of potage') mentioned in the Bible.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: IJL on February 23, 2016, 03:55:09 pm
Quote
There are human haplatypes who don't eat plant derived starches. Inuit Indians for example who survive on seal, walrus and fish. They got an obesity problem when European R1b haplatypes brought corn, wheat and chocolate filled foods to Alaska.

I'm not sure you can separate diet and lifestyle, The traditional Inuit diet was offset by the lifestyle required to catch a walrus.  The western influence not only changed diets but brought about the ability to live like a European ie spend most of the day sat down while consuming enough calories to transform yourself into a Walrus. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 23, 2016, 05:18:26 pm
It's certainly unscientific to believe that humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years. Evidence goes back as far as at least 100,000 years ago (and even before that was discovered, 23,000 years).

It's also unscientific to believe that humans aren't adapted to consuming carbohydrates. Or did we end up with 3x the copies of the AMY1 gene as the chimpanzee by accident?

I didn't actually say humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years.  And if humans have adapted to consuming carbs, it's certainly not very efficient.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 23, 2016, 05:27:28 pm
It's certainly unscientific to believe that humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years. Evidence goes back as far as at least 100,000 years ago (and even before that was discovered, 23,000 years).

It's also unscientific to believe that humans aren't adapted to consuming carbohydrates. Or did we end up with 3x the copies of the AMY1 gene as the chimpanzee by accident?

I didn't actually say humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years.  And if humans have adapted to consuming carbs, it's certainly not very efficient.

You read the China Study yet?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 23, 2016, 05:30:49 pm

It's been proven that the fat in animal products is what contributes to insulin resistance.


A bit of basic research shows that most scientific studies agree that as the percentage of fat intake increases from 30% to 60% then insulin sensitivity does get worse.  However once you get above 60%, it turns around and improves.  It doesn't matter what food source the fat comes from.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 23, 2016, 05:38:26 pm

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 26, 2016, 10:44:27 am
IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.

I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.

Twenty years later, still having a great time.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 26, 2016, 12:21:21 pm
IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.

I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.

Twenty years later, still having a great time.  :thumbsup:

This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.

Dr Atkins was over 250lbs when he died, and when they cut him open they found all manner of issues regarding his vascular system. The story about how he died was that he hit his head on an icy pavement, the general consensus is though that he suffered a heart attack.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 26, 2016, 12:22:13 pm

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 27, 2016, 06:44:26 am

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 27, 2016, 06:52:35 am
IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.

I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.

Twenty years later, still having a great time.  :thumbsup:

This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.

Dr Atkins was over 250lbs when he died, and when they cut him open they found all manner of issues regarding his vascular system. The story about how he died was that he hit his head on an icy pavement, the general consensus is though that he suffered a heart attack.

Slightly ingenuous there, as that's not spelling out the actual facts.  At the time of his accident, he was only 195 lbs - due to being hospitalised in intensive care for 2 weeks, he gained weight due to fluid retention, and they found he had cardiomyopathy, a heart muscle disease that was probably caused by a virus, not by what he ate.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 27, 2016, 09:26:22 am
IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.

I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.

Twenty years later, still having a great time.  :thumbsup:

This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.

Dr Atkins was over 250lbs when he died, and when they cut him open they found all manner of issues regarding his vascular system. The story about how he died was that he hit his head on an icy pavement, the general consensus is though that he suffered a heart attack.

Slightly ingenuous there, as that's not spelling out the actual facts.  At the time of his accident, he was only 195 lbs - due to being hospitalised in intensive care for 2 weeks, he gained weight due to fluid retention, and they found he had cardiomyopathy, a heart muscle disease that was probably caused by a virus, not by what he ate.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp

An interesting link, he had already suffered a heart attack - but did not blame it on his diet. And the 195 pound weight is as cited by his widow and the APC, so obviously no material bias there then, lol.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 27, 2016, 09:34:52 am
This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.


You can follow Atkins without the supplements - he tended to advocate them to ward off certain conditions.  In any event, Atkins is far from unique as realistically you can't be a vegan and survive without supplements, whilst I could live perfectly happily as a vegetarian and not also have to worry about missing out on some obscure amino acid or similar.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 27, 2016, 09:35:23 am

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.

So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 27, 2016, 09:38:48 am

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.

So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.

No - as I stated it's down to the manufacturing process.  If you eat deep fried, nitrate infused, courgettes in sunflower oil you're increasing your cancer risk.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 27, 2016, 09:39:03 am
This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.


You can follow Atkins without the supplements - he tended to advocate them to ward off certain conditions.  In any event, Atkins is far from unique as realistically you can't be a vegan and survive without supplements, whilst I could live perfectly happily as a vegetarian and not also have to worry about missing out on some obscure amino acid or similar.

All that fat has messed with your brain, a plant based whole foods vegan diet is about as nutrient, vitamin and mineral dense as you can possibly get. With the exception of vit B12, which non vegans can suffer from a lack of so it is impossible to say whether this is purely due to dietary choices.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on February 27, 2016, 09:41:46 am

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.

So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.

No - as I stated it's down to the manufacturing process.  If you eat deep fried, nitrate infused, courgettes in sunflower oil you're increasing your cancer risk.

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 27, 2016, 09:48:55 am

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.

So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.

No - as I stated it's down to the manufacturing process.  If you eat deep fried, nitrate infused, courgettes in sunflower oil you're increasing your cancer risk.

 :facepalm:


 :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Meh.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on March 06, 2016, 01:37:45 pm
So, I've been following a Keto diet this year. As to whether I shall live longer (ref recent posts) I don't know but I'm enjoying being out of the insulin cycle.

The flipside of this though is a loss of appetite; I just don't feel hungry any more. I enjoy eating and I'm generally eating better quality food than I was previously but life definitely feels a bit greyer, a bit like how being on prozac/valium is described.

I've also lost a pyschological crutch, in that when riding I'd occasionally have a carb based snack - anything from a jelly baby on up - as a pickmeup, but with Keto (a) there is no need and (b) no point, as the nutritional benefit/effect of anything eaten is not felt for several hours. The old mantra of 'just keep eating' no longer applies.

So yesterday, I had breakfast about 7am, rode the KVR100 (well, most of it), eyed the toast and cakes at the arrivee which looked very nice and normally I'd have been 'all over' but passed,. I eventually had a light snack at home around 5pm because I felt I ought to eat something but I still wasn't 'hungry'.

This loss of appetite is useful when living a sedentry lifestyle, but how do you ensure you get enough to eat when the workload cranks up? Is it simply a matter of keeping an eye on the scales and ensuring you eat enough to maintain your target body weight?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 06, 2016, 02:25:51 pm
Tim Noakes has the same problem that he says he can go over a day without eating as he just is not hungry.

I suppose that eventually you will drop to a fat percentage which your body thinks is low enough that you should go and chase another antelope.  You will then need to eat.

My wife and I are also having problems with the psychological side.  We were brought up by parents who fed us 3 times a day and woe betide you if you didn't eat it all.  Also for both of us, but differently, food was used as a reward and support mechanism.  When we have a hard day at work, there is a small, but persistent, vice that tells us that we deserve a treat or a reward.  We have swapped to cheese or pepperami but it is difficult to overcome the psychology even though we know it is there.

I have consciously tried to make our food brighter and a lot more vegetables as we started to eat in a LCHF fashion.  Last night was a special dinner but we had steamed asparagus with home made hollandaise  (bought contains sugar!), followed by Pork belly, cauliflower mash, pan fried courgette spaghetti and mushrooms.  Then we had raspberries with cream.  certainly not Grey and enough flavours to satisfy.

We are still trying to lose weight so being very good but in a couple of months we will add back in some almond flour based cakes and so on but they are high calorie as well as Low carb and dangerous at the moment.  My wife is gluten free so I was getting better at gluten free cakes enough before this.  one thing I had found was that cornmeal makes good muffins in my hands but was not very good at making large loaves which gave portion control.

It is interesting looking at the Hemsley sisters because a lot of their recipes are perfect and very easy.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on March 07, 2016, 10:08:12 am
So, I've been following a Keto diet this year. As to whether I shall live longer (ref recent posts) I don't know but I'm enjoying being out of the insulin cycle.

The flipside of this though is a loss of appetite; I just don't feel hungry any more. I enjoy eating and I'm generally eating better quality food than I was previously but life definitely feels a bit greyer, a bit like how being on prozac/valium is described.

I've also lost a pyschological crutch, in that when riding I'd occasionally have a carb based snack - anything from a jelly baby on up - as a pickmeup, but with Keto (a) there is no need and (b) no point, as the nutritional benefit/effect of anything eaten is not felt for several hours. The old mantra of 'just keep eating' no longer applies.

So yesterday, I had breakfast about 7am, rode the KVR100 (well, most of it), eyed the toast and cakes at the arrivee which looked very nice and normally I'd have been 'all over' but passed,. I eventually had a light snack at home around 5pm because I felt I ought to eat something but I still wasn't 'hungry'.

This loss of appetite is useful when living a sedentry lifestyle, but how do you ensure you get enough to eat when the workload cranks up? Is it simply a matter of keeping an eye on the scales and ensuring you eat enough to maintain your target body weight?

I wouldn't worry about appetite too much, once your bodyfat drops I'd imagine your body will figure it out.

This guy is interesting. Currently having on ongoing discussion/argument with Dr Ludwig on obesity crisis which you'll find on his website
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/

Good podcast on how body regulates fat levels
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode68/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22238401

As for carbs and ketones have a read here
http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on April 20, 2016, 06:16:46 pm
Just made a batch of chilli using a different brand of chilli powder.

This batch is going to last a bit longer than the last one..

Edit: for maybe not. A day of rest has brought it on nicely. God. Its good, though I say so myself. And the best bit is the houseful of wimmin I live with will not touch it, so it's mine, all mine. The first mouthful seems quite innocent so you have some more, except by then the kick from the first mouthful starts to make itself known.  :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on May 03, 2016, 08:33:19 pm
A bit of real life and poor diet management means I've fallen off the wagon. The experience is akin to an alcoholic going on a bender. Having transgressed you may as well make it worthwhile....

I'm sure sanity - or what passes as - will soon prevail.  :-\
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 03, 2016, 08:41:03 pm
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: The French Tandem on May 16, 2016, 12:16:46 pm
I'm usually very skeptical about any diet that severely restricts one sort of food or another, but being of a curious nature, we decided to give it a try. Well, it was a very modest experiment. On sunday morning, my better half and I had eggs and bacon for breakfast, and nothing else, no bread, no jam, only a cup of coffee for drinking. Then we went out for a 80 km tandem ride. Considering our poor level of fitness at the moment, 80km is quite a long ride for us.  It was our fastest 80km for as long as I can remember, we didn't eat anything during the ride, although my pockets were full of energy bars, just in case, and we were even not hungry at the end. Today, I'm surprised to feel no pain in my legs as I usually feel the day after a fast ride.

I wasn't expecting a single breakfast before a ride to make such a huge difference. I'm not sure whether cutting the carbs is so magically efficient, or all I see is the result of some powerful placebo effect! Any thought? Does the carbs restriction have any known effect on post-ride recovery?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on May 18, 2016, 04:25:42 pm
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.

Er, no it isn't

Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on May 18, 2016, 06:20:49 pm
Actually your body needs fatty acids (fat) and needs essential amino acids (protein) but can get all its glucose made in the liver.  There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on May 18, 2016, 07:11:06 pm
As a proof of principle, I've fallen from, 'I dont think I'll bother eating on an audax ever again' whilst in the Keto-zone, to seriously bonking out last W/E after ¬70km. Carbs? Just say no...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: zigzag on May 19, 2016, 10:08:42 am
for reference, i had four bananas at roughly 70, 110, 150, 180km of 204km audax and nothing else apart from 800ml of water. average speed 29kph, diet type - balanced :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 12:44:14 pm
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.

Er, no it isn't

Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively

Er yes it is. Me thinks you have misinterpreted my post, nay bother I'll bold the bit that you misread.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 12:53:53 pm
for reference, i had four bananas at roughly 70, 110, 150, 180km of 204km audax and nothing else apart from 800ml of water. average speed 29kph, diet type - balanced :)

On the face of it and taking into account the average speed and power needed for said speed. I'd say a sound aerobic system, with plant based carbs to top up the energy levels that you would have burned pedalling up some hills or just 'giving it some' on the flats.

That's a thumbs up from me.

Someone on the Keto would have crashed and burned if they tried to keep up with you on a sustained climb. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on May 19, 2016, 12:58:08 pm
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.

Er, no it isn't

Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively

Er yes it is. Me thinks you have misinterpreted my post, nay bother I'll bold the bit that you misread.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "primary". If you mean - it's what the body will use first given a choice, then yes it is - a carbohydrate rich meal will trigger an insulin response in order to moderate blood sugar, and any excess will be burned (if you're active) or converted to fat and stored (if you're binge-watching Netflix).

But once you are no longer in a recently fed state, fat is the primary "background" source of fuel for aerobic activity. The brain can mostly function on either glucose or ketone bodies; only a few tissue types have an absolute requirement for glucose as energy - including: red blood cells, some cells in the brain, oh - and cancer cells it would seem (Ref: Warburg). Once you get into a ketogenic state, your liver will create any glucose the body needs (which is really not very much), and the rest of your energy needs are met by fat and ketones.

Quote
Someone on the Keto would have crashed and burned if they tried to keep up with you on a sustained climb. :thumbsup:

Hehe - the very idea of keeping up with Zigzag on any terrain is fantasy to me!  ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 01:09:36 pm
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.

Er, no it isn't

Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively

Er yes it is. Me thinks you have misinterpreted my post, nay bother I'll bold the bit that you misread.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "primary". If you mean - it's what the body will use first given a choice, then yes it is - a carbohydrate rich meal will trigger an insulin response in order to moderate blood sugar, and any excess will be burned (if you're active) or converted to fat and stored (if you're binge-watching Netflix).

But once you are no longer in a recently fed state, fat is the primary "background" source of fuel for aerobic activity. The brain can mostly function on either glucose or ketone bodies; only a few tissue types have an absolute requirement for glucose as energy - including: red blood cells, some cells in the brain, oh - and cancer cells it would seem (Ref: Warburg). Once you get into a ketogenic state, your liver will create any glucose the body needs (which is really not very much), and the rest of your energy needs are met by fat and ketones.

Quote
Someone on the Keto would have crashed and burned if they tried to keep up with you on a sustained climb. :thumbsup:

Hehe - the very idea of keeping up with Zigzag on any terrain is fantasy to me!  ;D

De novo lipogenesis, look it up before you state something like the above. ::-)

If my glycogen stores were empty and I was on a plant based diet I'd need to eat about 120 bananas before any carbs were stored as fat, and even then this is on a 30/100 ratio in terms of fat/carbs.

The only thing that makes you fat is......fat - who'd have thunk it. :facepalm:. Those on a keto diet? Perhaps, but the brain fog that occurs through eating a diet rich in animal products and saturated fat prevents this sort of critical thinking and connection from happening. Ho hum.

EDIT: And as for the whole cancer thing, cancer cells thrive in an acidic environment. Answers on a postcard please for what diet will make your blood the most acidic?

Clue: It involves eating a dead animal, eating the menstrual cycle of an animal, or drinking the product of an animal.




Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on May 19, 2016, 01:13:08 pm
Before my fat burning test in April I ate a high carb, moderate fat, moderate protein breakfast. Yet during aerobic exercise, I got most of my calories from fat. The reason for this isn't my diet, it's a lot of aerobic base training. The mitochondria in the muscles respond to training, and I doubt that sitting on your arse eating avocados and coconut oil will have anything like the same effect as drinking a black coffee and turning the pedals for a couple of hours.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 01:22:16 pm
Before my fat burning test in April I ate a high carb, moderate fat, moderate protein breakfast. Yet during aerobic exercise, I got most of my calories from fat. The reason for this isn't my diet, it's a lot of aerobic base training. The mitochondria in the muscles respond to training, and I doubt that sitting on your arse eating avocados and coconut oil will have anything like the same effect as drinking a black coffee and turning the pedals for a couple of hours.

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Some common sense finally regarding diet and aerobic fitness. The keto/primal brigade will bang on endlessly about how this diet adds to endurance. But it's about training, and riding consistently at endurance power, something which is independent of your diet.

Although a high carb diet and hard training will of course raise your FTP and as such the Z1 & Z2 levels.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on May 19, 2016, 01:35:36 pm
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 01:44:40 pm
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.

But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on May 19, 2016, 01:52:28 pm
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.

But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.

Tell that to this guy: http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/86875777832/becoming-a-bonk-proof-triathlete-fat-chance
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on May 19, 2016, 02:04:22 pm
Surely the training in Simon's case is that aerobic training has enabled him to burn more fat without adopting a carb-free diet. Body training not diet training.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on May 19, 2016, 02:05:55 pm
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.

But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
Bollocks.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 02:09:35 pm
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.

But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
Bollocks.

I'll await your 20 mins Z4 effort then.... :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: pcolbeck on May 19, 2016, 02:13:40 pm
EDIT: And as for the whole cancer thing, cancer cells thrive in an acidic environment. Answers on a postcard please for what diet will make your blood the most acidic?

Clue: It involves eating a dead animal, eating the menstrual cycle of an animal, or drinking the product of an animal.

Pseudo science nonsense. Your blood is Ph 7.4 (slightly alkaline) or there about it doesn't change and it's never acidic. If it changed much you would die. The body buffers the bloods Ph very effectively. If you blood pH starts changing you are seriously ill. How would you know if your diet was affecting your blood pH anyway (iit isn't but lets let that go) ? Do you take blood samples every day and test them ?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 19, 2016, 02:31:36 pm
pcolbeck is spot on about blood pH.

The blood pH is adjusted by breathing and the kidneys.

pH of 7.3 is ill and <7.1 is often DETH.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: pcolbeck on May 19, 2016, 02:32:57 pm
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 02:47:33 pm
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.

But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.

Tell that to this guy: http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/86875777832/becoming-a-bonk-proof-triathlete-fat-chance

I'd need to know his FTP before commenting.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Si S on May 19, 2016, 02:49:10 pm
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Where do you get this stuff from.

Maybe from one these

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on May 19, 2016, 02:50:44 pm
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.

But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
Bollocks.

I'll await your 20 mins Z4 effort then.... :)
*sigh*
They're right there in my training log from last autumn when I was righteously keto, rigorously training, losing weight and generally kicking butt.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on May 19, 2016, 03:18:28 pm
The results of the second test in that page are fairly similar to mine. Peak fat burning shown as 70% there and in my case peak was at 68% at roughly the same wattage.

My test wasn't performed in a fasted state, unlike those; I'd had a high carb breakfast and no caffeine (caffeine increases fat burning). If you note his argument, he's extrapolating his fasted fat burning performance to predict his non fasted performance. That's a bit flawed and one of the reasons I was told NOT to fast before my test.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: pcolbeck on May 19, 2016, 03:24:36 pm
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.

And on a secondary note you do know that most people of Northern Europeans ancestry and and some Africans have a gene that specifically allows for lactose consumption after babyhood ? So some of us at least are evolved to consume dairy products.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 03:41:09 pm
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.

But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
Bollocks.

I'll await your 20 mins Z4 effort then.... :)
*sigh*
They're right there in my training log from last autumn when I was righteously keto, rigorously training, losing weight and generally kicking butt.

Where can I view these and what is your FTP for reference?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on May 19, 2016, 06:41:02 pm
You can't view these because they're not in the public domain. I'm fairly sure that there are real athletes out there willing to show their numbers though, you don't have to look at the stats for a fat middle aged woman to see that people who limit the carbohydrates in their diet are perfectly capable of doing high end training.

I'd have a lot more respect for your dietary choices if you stopped trying to justify them with pseudo scientific rubbish - but then- you think that about my diet choices, too.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 09:00:26 pm
You can't view these because they're not in the public domain. I'm fairly sure that there are real athletes out there willing to show their numbers though, you don't have to look at the stats for a fat middle aged woman to see that people who limit the carbohydrates in their diet are perfectly capable of doing high end training.

I'd have a lot more respect for your dietary choices if you stopped trying to justify them with pseudo scientific rubbish - but then- you think that about my diet choices, too.

LOL ::-)

Knock yourself out:-

Protein and heart disease
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYuxGs49k-o&list=PL5TLzNi5fYd9Q4Lfm8Zw3afIWobMV7-iT&index=24

Egg cholesterol in the diet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNby8ongJsM&list=PL5TLzNi5fYd9Q4Lfm8Zw3afIWobMV7-iT

Harvard's Meat and Mortality Studies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud7RkxtO3-Y

Animal Protein -- Meat and Dairy -- Cause Cancer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfsT-qYeqGM

Why is Meat a Risk Factor for Diabetes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t4tBmbPko8

If White Rice is Linked to Diabetes, What About China?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aFxzAZdv7Y

Cure Type 2 Diabetes With Sugar & White Rice - Dr. McDougall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cl2IX94GCI

Why Doctors Don't Recommend A Vegan Diet | Dr. Michael Greger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d1Ca6SsKfE

Dr Michael Greger, MD discusses diabetes and the dangers of low carb diets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es4PFR5GZTY

Alkaline Diets, Animal Protein, and Calcium Loss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9XTjnvlIUI

Humans are Herbivores in Denial - w/ Science!
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=2031119;topic=67736.475

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 09:04:13 pm
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.

And on a secondary note you do know that most people of Northern Europeans ancestry and and some Africans have a gene that specifically allows for lactose consumption after babyhood ? So some of us at least are evolved to consume dairy products.

Not quite sure where you get blood from, the enzymes used to break down food are acidic, the acid in the stomach is typically 20 times stronger than that of a human being. Why do you think that the rate of heart disease and diabetes is on the up?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: pcolbeck on May 19, 2016, 09:14:42 pm
Because you posted that eating meat made your blood acidic.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ian H on May 19, 2016, 09:43:37 pm
The following is from sciencebasedmedicine.org.  (https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/)


 
Quote
As Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science:  The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 09:47:18 pm
Because you posted that eating meat made your blood acidic.

So I did, I meant the system of carnivores as mentioned in another post, as for your dairy thing:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJvrlwnEqbs
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: caerau on May 19, 2016, 09:52:09 pm
>the enzymes used to break down food are acidic<


No they aren't and don't argue - I am a biological organic chemist - you're talking out of your arse.  Please stop.

I shall have to try posting a bunch of youtube links in my next publication, I'm sure that will pass peer review ::-)


Your stomach might be acidic - a protein (which enzymes are) might be acidic, it might be basic, depending on its pI (I expect you knew that - not) but then that's irrelevant as the bulk concentration of protons in solution controls the pH and that thereby determines the protonation state of the molecules and ions dissolved in it.

Really please stop.

Been lurking and finding the level of pseudoscientific crap (not just from you to be fair) really quite frightening but too much wine here has made me crack. Sorry.




Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: caerau on May 19, 2016, 09:52:42 pm
The following is from sciencebasedmedicine.org.  (https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/)


 
Quote
As Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science:  The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…


Indeed
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 19, 2016, 10:24:46 pm
The youtube links that I've posted are narrated and presented by Doctor's that are well versed in diet and nutrition. If people want to dismiss this is pseudo science and continue with what is a fad diet - then fuck it. Who am I to stop you reinforcing bad habits with the likes of Atkins, Sisson, Noakes et al.

Carry on people. :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ian H on May 19, 2016, 10:29:07 pm
Another quote from the link above.

Quote
I hear that all the time from people who have been overwhelmed by the information presented in a video that supports their beliefs. They assume that the evidence presented is incontrovertible, and that anyone who agreed to watch it would necessarily be converted to their beliefs. These videos tend to fall into an easily recognizable pattern. They feature a charismatic scientist with an agenda who makes sweeping statements that go beyond the evidence, makes unwarranted assumptions about the meaning of studies, and omits any reference to contradictory evidence.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 19, 2016, 11:02:17 pm
>the enzymes used to break down food are acidic<
No they aren't and don't argue -

Save your (alkaline) bile...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on May 19, 2016, 11:17:54 pm
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.

Er, no it isn't

Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively

Er yes it is. Me thinks you have misinterpreted my post, nay bother I'll bold the bit that you misread.

I didn't misinterpret anything, I disagreed with you. I still do.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on May 19, 2016, 11:25:13 pm
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.

And on a secondary note you do know that most people of Northern Europeans ancestry and and some Africans have a gene that specifically allows for lactose consumption after babyhood ? So some of us at least are evolved to consume dairy products.

Not quite sure where you get blood from, the enzymes used to break down food are acidic, the acid in the stomach is typically 20 times stronger than that of a human being. Why do you think that the rate of heart disease and diabetes is on the up?

Please stop talking about diabetes, you have demonstrated zero understanding of the condition.

Next thing I expect you'll tell me I'm responsible for my type 1, and be disagreeing with my consultant who was extremely happy with my last hbA1c which matched that of a non diabetic on, you've guessed it, a low carb, high fat diet. His quote, no evidence against it, and it seems to be working for you.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 20, 2016, 12:21:08 am
<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on May 20, 2016, 07:17:41 am
<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.

Good for him, I'm on average using 6-8 units a day, right at the bottom of the scale.  I think this is due to a combination of low carb diet and general fitness prolonging the honeymoon period. I suspect some residual pancreatic function.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on May 20, 2016, 08:15:00 am
<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.

No (OK, little) meat, no dairy, low carbs. Isn't that called just not eating?  ??? :P Avocado, eggs, nuts and mackerel, over and over and over again?


Only slightly tongue-in-cheek. Whatever works for an individual is the right choice for them - we are likely to have different dietary "sweet spots" in the same way as we have different hair colours. And good diabetic control is almost certainly a bigger health benefit to your uncle than any association between dietary animal protein and longer-term health risks.

For me, the LCHF diet is simply a way of eating say 2000 kCal in a single sitting, feeling utterly stuffed and slightly nauseous for about four hours, followed by feeling ravenous again. n=1, natch.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 20, 2016, 08:17:04 am
Not all meats are red or fish e.g. chicken is quite cheaply and easily available.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on May 20, 2016, 08:37:02 am
Not all meats are red or fish e.g. chicken is quite cheaply and easily available.

You don't say?  ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on May 20, 2016, 08:44:27 am
Not all meats are red or fish e.g. chicken is quite cheaply and easily available.

You don't say?  ;D

Condemning somebody to mackerel day after day is probably against the Geneva Convention, or should be.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on May 20, 2016, 09:28:04 am
I like mackerel  :-[

Though admittedly probably not for every meal.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: IJL on May 20, 2016, 09:37:04 am
It's often said that they key to a species survival is to range widely over the earth and be able to eat a wide range of things, thus if you are a Koala you need to worry.  Humans however can be found in most areas of the world and thrive on a huge variety of foods.  It's quite impressive how adaptable human physiology is. Early man was a persistent hunter doing lots of work on whatever he or she could find. 

We now seems to be in a position where the volume of food consumed is one the greatest threat to health in large parts of the world, the type of food is likely to be an issue as well but people like simple answers and to blame a specific food type appeals to many.  However the simplest diet advice I have heard is that people should "eat less, most plants"

Then comes the pseudoscience, popular culture is full of it, changes to Ph of blood sound quite feasible and when mixed with a bit more pseudoscience it can rapidly sound like reasonable diet advice.  Unless of course you know a little physiology or have read a few blood gas results, most people haven't.
 




Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on May 20, 2016, 10:09:21 am
The following is from sciencebasedmedicine.org.  (https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/)

Also from there, this confuses me (my bold)

Quote
Diabetes can be treated and controlled with diet, weight loss, medication, obesity surgery, and even islet cell transplants. The symptoms subside, the blood sugar normalizes, and some patients no longer need their medication after they lose weight and make other lifestyle changes. But we don’t consider it “cured.”

I thought diabetes was exactly that; abnormal blood sugars. When blood sugars normalise, are we not 'cured'? Or are we saying that we are all potential diabetics? Diabetes lays in wait (or weight  ::-)) for us all?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on May 20, 2016, 10:17:05 am
My layman's understanding of diabetes is it's a disease of insulin production or usage, which makes it difficult/impossible to control blood sugar.

A low-carb diet isn't a cure - but helps in blood sugar management.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on May 20, 2016, 11:13:43 am
Diabetes is a condition where a lack of insulin leads to loss of control of blood sugar and death.
It is therefore assumed that the primary object of insulin is to control Blood sugar.

HOWEVER
if we did not have problems with type 1 diabetes then insulin would probably have been seen as an evolutionary hormone designed to drive glucose into lipogenesis and into fat cells for the winter. (What it actually does).

our understanding of the function of insulin in popular science is skewed by how it was first discovered.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 20, 2016, 12:22:49 pm
<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.

Good for him, I'm on average using 6-8 units a day, right at the bottom of the scale.  I think this is due to a combination of low carb diet and general fitness prolonging the honeymoon period. I suspect some residual pancreatic function.

Could well be.
Your insulin requirements sound minimal too, which can be no bad thing.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 20, 2016, 12:29:54 pm
<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.

No (OK, little) meat, no dairy, low carbs. Isn't that called just not eating?  ??? :P Avocado, eggs, nuts and mackerel, over and over and over again?


Uncle does seem to eat, though finding a suitable restaurant for family group with him was a challenge!
He doesn't eat chicken but does eat fish. I don't think he eats many pulses.
His weight appears 'normal' and he seems to have shed the pot belly he had for several decades.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on May 20, 2016, 04:06:46 pm
Diabetes is a condition where a lack of insulin leads to loss of control of blood sugar and death.
It is therefore assumed that the primary object of insulin is to control Blood sugar.

HOWEVER
if we did not have problems with type 1 diabetes then insulin would probably have been seen as an evolutionary hormone designed to drive glucose into lipogenesis and into fat cells for the winter. (What it actually does).

our understanding of the function of insulin in popular science is skewed by how it was first discovered.

Remember insulin has many different functions and these have quite an influence on both symptom and management of diabetes, and can suggest different strategies for T1 and T2.  From my immediate need to learn this stuff three years ago my paraphrasing is
1) movement of glucose to muscles, when exercising, additional receptors are activated, in addition to other transport mechanisms to improve glucose transport rate.  That's why exercising T1s with an amount of circulating insulin are at risk of hypos during exercise - they can't do the same as a normal person and reduce insulin production - I have to reduce my pump rate 3-4 hours ahead of time
2) fat storage hormone, stores excess glucose as fat
3) suppresses fat utilisation (preference for use of glucose as fuel when available)

Hence, to lose fat/use fat needs minimum insulin circulating, easy enough for me if a bit of a faff and requiring planning.  For a T2, where they are insulin resistant, high circulating insulin lays down carbs as fat, prevents it being utilised and with the insulin resistance means those circulating carbs are not as easily utilised either.  Hence T2 tends to be linked to obesity, but the question of cause vs effect s being rethought in some medical circles.

Also, with that premise in mind, a high carb diet, with those insulin spikes again logically contributes to obesity.  So being able to efficiently burn fat = low insulin = low carb.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on May 23, 2016, 07:24:56 am

[url]http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/22/official-advice-to-eat-low-fat-diet-is-wrong-says-health-charity[url/]

If you've not seen it yet
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: rafletcher on May 23, 2016, 07:46:09 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36345768
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on May 23, 2016, 08:14:30 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36345768

Quote
Other experts have also criticised the recommendation to eat more fat, saying the report cherry-picked evidence.

Quote
Naveed Sattar, a professor of metabolic medicine at the University of Glasgow, said the report was "good, bad and ugly".
He backed calls to cut snacking, but said eating more fat as a cure for obesity and type 2 diabetes was "not warranted" by the evidence and would have "adverse" consequences.
He said the authors had been selective in their choice of evidence and had ignored "an abundant literature which goes against their conclusions"
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: IJL on May 23, 2016, 08:40:06 am
I can't help wondering who this diet advice is aimed at, the population of who need diet advise will completely ignore it the population who are already obsessed with diet will just become more so.  Labelling food as good or bad is largely nonsense, the drive to reduce fat just led to it being replaced with sugar.  As someone or other said (cant be bothered to google it) "everything is a poison at the right dose"

In the mean time I see patients who seem to be drinking gallons of Coconut water, apparently it's more hydrating!!!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on May 23, 2016, 08:45:57 am
The problem with articles like that one is that people who eat unhealthily (chips, salt and high-monosaturated cooked fat processed foods) will read it and say "see, fat's good for you", then shove more cheap fatty, sugar and salt laden crap into themselves.

It's useless info for the people who are already closely watching their health, whether they are doing low fat diets, low carb diets or whatever. Those people are already playing attention to their health and will respond sensibly to poor health.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on May 23, 2016, 09:17:20 am
Same old shit really, everyone at some level knows that eating a balanced diet with plenty of fruit and veg, no processed food and doing regular exercise is the sensible thing and the one that works for both weight and general health. It doesn't need amateur physiology and biochemistry, and you don't need to remove entire food groups, buy special products, or otherwise engage in dietary weirdness. But like I've said before, we've made food odd. Eat and drink well and enjoy it.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: caerau on May 23, 2016, 09:35:33 am
Also, the government have a responsibility to at least try and keep the population healthy, that's what leads to these pointless directives and advice as drip fed 'new evidence' comes out.  I have a bit of sympathy for them because since they do have that responsibility, being seen to do nothing is not an option. So they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.  Crap articles written by journalists with little or no science training on top doesn't help either.

We can't even work out (yet) in full the metabolic flux in the very simplest of organisms so we should really admit that we haven't got much more than a clue with a much more complex set of organisms such as ourselves.  The best advice (for me) really is just to ignore the government and 'expert' directives and do what Ian says  :thumbsup:


Recently some scientists developed a 'minimal' form of bacterial life - that is one that has only the essential primary metabolic pathways and 'nothing else' - the point of that being that we can then clone in our own chosen pathways and do stuff like use them as biological factories for making chemicals of our choice (drugs, fuels etc.) by fermentation.  Even in that organism they reported shunt metabolic pathways for getting around other pathways that had been deleted  - they hadn't predicted these and didn't really know how the bacteria did it.  And this really did have a very minimal set of genes in it.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on May 23, 2016, 10:20:28 am
Don't  shoot the messenger.

It's not a fault of the report that many do or don't have this knowledge, nor that many will or won't ignore it. Yes, there's a great deal of contradictory information out there, and it does confuse people and lead to frustration ("they" are always banning something, you can't win, ignore it, eat what you like) but I think that's to be expected.

Diet and nutrition is one of those areas (like, dare I say it, cycle helmets) that seems to lead to quite impassioned debates. People claiming to know 'the facts' when said facts exist in quite defined contexts. I think the truth is that the truth is not known. Until it is, you're left in the position of making up your own mind on whatever basis you so choose.

I treat such reports as potentially useful in that process. No, it doesn't say anything that I wasn't already aware of but I see it as adding to the drip drip of information that is of use in a 'weight of opinion' sense.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on May 23, 2016, 10:35:51 am
The really interesting thing for me was the complete disregard of the evidence-based-outcomes presented by the GP on the news this morning.

To see the attitude of some of the spokespersons in response, paraphrasing "it's dangerous" shows all that is bad about many areas of scientific debate (both now and historically).  Surely science is supposed to be about the evidence and trying to understand the world around us.  That attitude therefore stinks.  I'd have much more respect for those people as medical and scientific professionals if they simple said "that's interesting, we need to more research to understand it and see if it stands up to greater scrutiny", but perhaps I have a utopian view of science rather than one that is masked by industry lobbying.

On another note Axa have said they'll be no longer investing in tobacco. I wonder if they'll switch to vaping instead?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on May 23, 2016, 10:41:11 am
But all that dietary complexity is illusory. We weirded food. It started with the obsession with fat, then low calorie, now it's low carb, and who knows what's next. We dress it up with appeals to evolution, physiology, biochemistry, and metabolism. None of this is necessary. We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on May 23, 2016, 11:05:20 am
We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.

Who do you mean by "we" and what do you mean by a diet "that works"?  Because I'm not sure I follow you.

I accept and see your point that food has become weirded but I don't see that the public at large know how to eat healthily and I'm sure that we both see everyday examples of people that are struggling (and I say that without attributing blame or scorn). When I talk of a healthy diet, I recognise peoples motivations for eating - the mental health aspect if you will. I feel it's one thing to know that eating cake all day long doesn't work but putting into practice is another matter entirely. People eat for many reasons.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: IJL on May 23, 2016, 11:06:30 am
Quote

But all that dietary complexity is illusory. We weirded food. It started with the obsession with fat, then low calorie, now it's low carb, and who knows what's next. We dress it up with appeals to evolution, physiology, biochemistry, and metabolism. None of this is necessary. We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.



The irony is that the complexity arises from the desire to find simple answers and single culprits for dietary issues.  People want there to be a dietary bogeyman. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on May 23, 2016, 11:07:56 am
On a separate note, and perhaps one for another thread, I personally (and it's probably due my semantic bent) don't like food being described as 'good' or 'bad'. I think it introduces a level of judgement that's not needed nor helpful. I'd prefer people ate what they wanted, guilt free, and accepted whatever consequence. I think that's a more empowering position but then, as I said, people eat for many reasons. I feel it's not something you can be strictly objective about.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on May 23, 2016, 11:59:11 am
We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.

Who do you mean by "we" and what do you mean by a diet "that works"?  Because I'm not sure I follow you.

I accept and see your point that food has become weirded but I don't see that the public at large know how to eat healthily and I'm sure that we both see everyday examples of people that are struggling (and I say that without attributing blame or scorn). When I talk of a healthy diet, I recognise peoples motivations for eating - the mental health aspect if you will. I feel it's one thing to know that eating cake all day long doesn't work but putting into practice is another matter entirely. People eat for many reasons.

I think they do. In the same way that no one thinks smoking is good for them. Of course, they do it for lots of reasons, but all of us know that sitting on the sofa all evening eating pringles isn't going to have health benefits. This argument often gets reframed as blaming, which is isn't, but equally it becomes an excuse to disempower people. They can't make choice. It's not their fault. Same as driving a car everywhere, not exercising and eating comfort food is simply easier. And that's the choice that's open to us.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on May 23, 2016, 12:55:42 pm
But all that dietary complexity is illusory. We weirded food. It started with the obsession with fat, then low calorie, now it's low carb, and who knows what's next. We dress it up with appeals to evolution, physiology, biochemistry, and metabolism. None of this is necessary. We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.

The diet that gets a woman of 5'3" to more than 80kg while cycling 10,000 miles a year.

:facepalm:

It's really not that straightforward, otherwise there wouldn't be an epidemic of obesity. We're not (us fatties) actually all stupid, greedy and lazy.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 23, 2016, 01:01:35 pm
[slightly OT]
I LOVE sugar! I ordered a kilogram bag from Sainsbury's yesterday, the first in 2016.
50p - bloody hell! that stuff is so cheap! - No wonder we have a problem!

I appreciate this is not my only source of sugar - we eat modest quantities of bread/biscuits/tinned soup/baked beans/chutney/chocolate etc

Sugar is seriously cheap.
Too cheap.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on May 23, 2016, 03:14:33 pm
Since becoming a fully grown adult I've consumed roughly 3 tonnes of carbohydrate (300g per day for 25 years). My weight has increased in that time - by 22kg. So maybe 2g of carbs per day has been stored as fat, as a long term net average.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on May 23, 2016, 03:20:50 pm
But all that dietary complexity is illusory. We weirded food. It started with the obsession with fat, then low calorie, now it's low carb, and who knows what's next. We dress it up with appeals to evolution, physiology, biochemistry, and metabolism. None of this is necessary. We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.

The diet that gets a woman of 5'3" to more than 80kg while cycling 10,000 miles a year.

:facepalm:

It's really not that straightforward, otherwise there wouldn't be an epidemic of obesity. We're not (us fatties) actually all stupid, greedy and lazy.

Which again I didn't say. But unless we accept we have some control over our health then it's not going to change.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 23, 2016, 03:31:39 pm
My weight is roughly the same as when I became a fully-grown adult some 40 years ago.
I have little idea of how much carbohydrate, either simple or complex, I have consumed in those 15,000-odd days.
2 tons doesn't seem like much! (150g/day).

No doubt, I wolfed down much more when I had a heavy cycling habit...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: jahs on June 02, 2016, 10:31:22 pm
Just a quick note on my experience of keto. Started the diet (based on Phinney and Volek) immediately after Hardboiled so that I was already in post-exercise ketosis. Felt a loss of power and a bit miserable for a couple of days then started to get energy back again. By the time of Porkers a month later I was fine - I ate "normally" on the ride (usual audax fare of fry up with toast, jacket potato etc.) and performed better than I've ever done and felt great. Did Brimstone at the weekend and managed the first 270k on no breakfast and only a packet of salted peanuts(!), bouncing controls (started 40 min late and had two punctures so had to make up time). Furthermore this has given a breakthrough in my weight - since starting audaxing three years ago I came down from around 82kg to 73kg but then stopped. However I've dropped to 69kg in less than three months on keto.

Reading Phinney and Volek's work, it makes sense - carbs cause an insulin spike which then blocks fat burning and stimulates hunger. Avoid the carbs, keep insulin low and you burn fat rapidly. After a short period of adaptation and increased dietary salt you're able to exercise at a high level, leading to incredible weight loss. Early days, but so far I would say this is *the* cure for obesity.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on June 02, 2016, 11:10:14 pm
I munch through 550-600g of carbs a day, in fact looking at my macros I get 88% of my calories from carbs, 6% from protein and the remainder from fat. Yet I've lost 6kg since February, and none of it's water weight. ;)

How weird.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on June 02, 2016, 11:17:09 pm
Yet I can function on 10% of that, with no weight problems and am having a great time on the bike this year. My only issue is needing to artificially manage carbs vs insulin.

Fat, fat, fat, all the way.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on June 02, 2016, 11:18:10 pm
"Among its many well-known functions, insulin is also a potent anorexigenic hormone[...]"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16933179/

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on June 02, 2016, 11:23:16 pm
Good job I keep mine to the minimum then
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on June 02, 2016, 11:30:00 pm
Good job I keep mine to the minimum then

Nothing to do with you. Simply a response to the claim a few posts above that insulin stimulates appetite. The reverse is true.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on June 02, 2016, 11:41:47 pm
Yet I can function on 10% of that, with no weight problems and am having a great time on the bike this year. My only issue is needing to artificially manage carbs vs insulin.

Fat, fat, fat, all the way.

Okay, that was not the point I was rebutting but hey ho.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: jahs on June 04, 2016, 11:37:45 am
Yes quite right Simon. I badly paraphrased. I think the mechanism suggested is that elevated insulin causes leptin resistance and so a lack of satiety. Also the consequent blood glucose undershoot following the insulin spike encourages further consumption.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on June 04, 2016, 12:58:49 pm
Either way, good to keep insulin low in that case.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on June 05, 2016, 10:10:50 pm
There's likely to be inter - individual variability in these pathways:

a) the magnitude of any insulin spike for a given carbohydrate  load
b) the satiety pathways are complex
c) etc....

I see "straightforward" single - system pathways (e.g. BP changes with fluid loading) vary all the time, so complex ones are likely to be even more variable. The problem is, your mitochondria haven't read the textbooks....
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on June 10, 2016, 07:30:58 pm
Cover story on this week's New Scientist (https://www.newscientist.com/issue/3077/)

I wouldn't say it's a very comprehensive summary of the debate, but worth a read never the less.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on June 11, 2016, 02:12:41 pm
From another thread, but it seems to sit better here...


Mark Sisson's Primal Movements might be a good start - including Progression Videos:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-fitness-plan-so-easy-a-caveman-did-it/

Interesting website, that. Like the emphasis on doing a variety of exercises and moving in different ways. Stands to reason that loading a given joint in different ways will keep its full range and prevent injury, compared to a single movement repeated many times. Also prevents boredom! Likewise, the emphasis on play being the ultimate purpose of exercise is really good.



OT: What's even more interesting is (IMO anyway  ;D )how the "headline message" is exactly the opposite to what the plan itself suggests:

"You can eat more fat and don't have to count calories! Here, have a look at this meal with no carbs!" Then proceed to make a salad with a few pine nuts and a piece of chicken (no skin). Dash of vinaigrette. 500kCal total. Four, even five meals like that per day is calorie restriction.

"Fat keeps you full for longer!" Then serve a relatively small portion of fat-containing nuts and avo with a shovelful of leafy greens (i.e. very low-density carbohydrate). Eeerm, maybe it's the bulk of the vegetables keeping you full, not the fat per se?

"You don't have to do lots of exercise! Brief bursts is all it takes!" Then describe 5 hours of HR 120bpm stuff/week plus some strength training plus one balls-to-the-wall-eyes-popping sprint session every now and again. Oh, and the play and the stretches, of course. That is a lot of exercise for most people.

Now, I'm not saying that keeping an eye on the calories and getting enough exercise isn't a good idea. It is. And the diet and exercise plan described is very good. But it simply isn't the antithesis to Conventional Wisdom (sic) as he says. It's still calories in < calories out. If you followed the headline messages only, and did only brief bursts of exercise whilst eating only salad with lots of cheese and dressing, you'd still gain weight. OTOH, if you followed Conventional Wisdom (dontcha love the way he capitalises the words?  8) ) and ate some pasta with your salad, rather than avocado f'rinstance, you'd lose weight. Calories in < calories out is what counts; the rest is all about how to achieve that without going mad with hunger or boredom.



(Even further OT: The pejorative line in hospitals is "the larger the theatre nurse, the greater the likelihood that she will be seen eating salad at lunch time".)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: CrinklyLion on June 11, 2016, 03:21:12 pm
Just going to leave this here....

https://authoritynutrition.com/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on June 11, 2016, 06:25:04 pm
I wasn't consciously engaging in fat shaming, otherCL. Merely making the point that there are many obese folk doing precisely what the "primal" or "paleo" approach suggests will be a surefire way of looking like Bruce Lee/Lara Croft, and not making headway. The flip side is that there are many skinny and healthy vegans around who can't by definition "eat primally".

However, if you still feel that the post is inappropriate, I'll take that bit down.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: DrMekon on June 11, 2016, 06:33:26 pm
I work with some of the leading lights in satiety research, and some of the leading lights in behaviour change. If you were to average the BMIs of the satiety lot and the behaviour change lot, we in behaviour change would be skinnier.

I don't know if that's relevant, but Simon Griffin, previously of MRC epidemiology, used to point out that the epidemiologists were skinnier than the geneticists.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: adam w on June 11, 2016, 08:15:57 pm
ketogenic diet is a fad imo, unless you live by it long-term, and then its just a miserable existance
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on June 11, 2016, 11:24:43 pm
It's very easy to get caught up in the hype about it, and that might well lead you to think it's a fad.

If I said to you that most of the time, I choose not to eat grains or sugar, or any processed foods made from them, but instead eat lots of fruit, vegetables and healthy meats and fats, would it still sound "extreme"? If so, is it more or less extreme than the modern Western diet based on huge amounts of processed food, especially sugar?

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: CrinklyLion on June 11, 2016, 11:36:40 pm
I wasn't consciously engaging in fat shaming, otherCL. Merely making the point that there are many obese folk doing precisely what the "primal" or "paleo" approach suggests will be a surefire way of looking like Bruce Lee/Lara Croft, and not making headway. The flip side is that there are many skinny and healthy vegans around who can't by definition "eat primally".

However, if you still feel that the post is inappropriate, I'll take that bit down.

There was another post after yours.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: JennyB on June 12, 2016, 06:35:35 am
How (if at all) is the mean's of burning digested fat related to the means of bu ring stored fat?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on June 12, 2016, 10:51:29 am
It's very easy to get caught up in the hype about it, and that might well lead you to think it's a fad.

If I said to you that most of the time, I choose not to eat grains or sugar, or any processed foods made from them, but instead eat lots of fruit, vegetables and healthy meats and fats, would it still sound "extreme"? If so, is it more or less extreme than the modern Western diet based on huge amounts of processed food, especially sugar?

Not extreme at all - it is a good diet and likely to work for weight control. It's just that the pseudoscience-explanation for why/how it works is wrong. A "less extreme" version of the western diet, containing grain as well as the aforementioned fruit and vegetables, is no less likely to work for the same purpose, provided the total calorie intake is similar. Furthermore, there are other health benefits to be gained from limiting or eliminating animal - derived food from the diet. It's a balance to be struck for each individual, depending on which diet works for their particular preferences.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on June 12, 2016, 04:37:02 pm
I have been doing kept since january.  i have cycled about the same as previous years but have far more endurance and can go much further without needing to eat.  as with anything, if you train the body to burn fat then it will do and i personally think that gives more endurance than burning very limited amounts of glycogen.

I eat a better diet with more vegetables than before but have a much higher ratio of olive oil, butter and lard.  I eat more eggs than before and more cheese.  I agree totally about the need to have less calories in than out in order to reduce weight.  I think that for me the calorie dense and good mouthfeel foods like fat and protein are better than the poor mouthfeel calorie light foods on a standard slimming diet.

So i would rather have double cream in my coffee than skimmed milk and drink less coffee and eat less as a result.

I now find that carbs leave me bloated and ill feeling.  I am presently in the Alps for a cycling camp.  I did a 500m in 10km climb with a 5 km approach and then a 60 km ride today with no specific dietary carbs and feel fine.  Instead of gels I take a babble or two for emergencies!

My plan for very long rides is probably to refuel on pesto which I love, although if I can stop and have an omelette I would do.

Is kept a panacea for weight loss - NO
Is the present low fat, high carb diet working in the western world -absolutely NOT

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on June 12, 2016, 05:17:16 pm
What's a 'babble' for emergencies?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Andrew on June 12, 2016, 05:46:46 pm
I'm guessing predictive text/auto spell correction has mangled his Mini Babybels...

 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on June 12, 2016, 06:54:30 pm
OIC...
I genuinely was puzzled!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: zigzag on June 13, 2016, 02:27:42 pm
I have been doing kept since january.  i have cycled about the same as previous years but have far more endurance and can go much further without needing to eat.  as with anything, if you train the body to burn fat then it will do and i personally think that gives more endurance than burning very limited amounts of glycogen.

may i add that on a balanced diet (carbs+fat+protein+...) body is using fat as a primary source for for fuel as well, it is just more adapted to use the glycogen which body has for about 1.5h in reserve for higher intensity efforts. if i ride an audax i can ride it without eating anything, just at lower intensity. recent ride (200km in 7h) required four bananas; without bananas it would have taken 8h, at a guess. if i was keto-adapted i wonder if could do it in under 7h - i think not.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on June 13, 2016, 04:44:54 pm
Intensity is interesting. I have just done a 90 minute watt bike session this morning with a 20 minute FTP test. Average HR was 168 for the 20 minutes so pretty close to full on even thoughI am very unfit at the moment.  Then I had a vegetable and meat lunch, no carbs followed by 2.5 hours of full on velodrome riding.  came back and ate some pesto and babybel.  no carbs and no gels. So high intensity is doable on keto.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on June 13, 2016, 08:48:24 pm
for reference, i had four bananas at roughly 70, 110, 150, 180km of 204km audax and nothing else apart from 800ml of water. average speed 29kph, diet type - balanced :)

On the face of it and taking into account the average speed and power needed for said speed. I'd say a sound aerobic system, with plant based carbs to top up the energy levels that you would have burned pedalling up some hills or just 'giving it some' on the flats.

That's a thumbs up from me.

Someone on the Keto would have crashed and burned if they tried to keep up with you on a sustained climb. :thumbsup:


Not actually the case. A week ago I climbed Mont Ventoux on a 35 year old Bickerton, setting off 35 km away, at 9 am.  All I had for breakfast was some cheese and some ham.  My average speed climbing once I'd started on the mountain was around 10 km/hour, and yet I still overtook quite a few other riders younger than me, on some very fancy bikes.  At no time did I feel like I was crashing and burning, unlike the poor souls rapidly depleting their glycogen supplies as they were stuck with carbs.  That's the nice thing about being ketogenic - you can't bonk, you just keep on going.  Then I turned round, went whizzing down back to my hotel, and had a small snack for lunch.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: zigzag on June 13, 2016, 09:08:15 pm
it's difficult to ascertain someone else's fitness for comparison. a proper study of keto and non-keto athletes would be interesting.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on June 13, 2016, 09:33:08 pm
it's difficult to ascertain someone else's fitness for comparison. a proper study of keto and non-keto athletes would be interesting.

It's been done - have a look for Jeff Volek and FASTER study. I tried to get a link to the published paper, but all I can find are sites of ranting bloggers nattering about its results, but I think that was precisely the comparison that was being conducted. Jeff Volek has a long history of doing actual science on keto performance. There's not much $$ in it, because there's no commercial angle in "Just run/ride/walk for 10 hours, you don't need anything other than water." so the research budget is thin to say the least.

Actually, you won't find much in general other than anecdotes. But there are a lot of anecdotes - from athletes doing extraordinary things without the need for continual carb input; there's a lot of traction in it, but it's very niche and background.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: IJL on June 13, 2016, 09:51:54 pm
This one ?

http://www.metabolismjournal.com/article/S0026-0495(15)00334-0/fulltext

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on June 14, 2016, 08:45:54 am
Fad?

The problem with these diets is people start extrapolating single studies, often basic research, in vitro, or involving small numbers of subjects, to wide conclusions. They layers of pseudoscientific guff get laid on top. And then it's marketed. There's products. Stands in the supermarket. Passionate blogs. Ketogenic and proud. How dare you!

I don't much care what individuals eat, that's between them and their stomach. I just hate the fact that we weird diet. We have decades of sensible, well-researched dietary advice which gets ignored. Demonising carbohydrates just repeats the nonsense we've had with fats. Demonising any food group is a bit silly, there's no such thing as a generic carbohydrate any more than there is a fat.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 14, 2016, 09:10:58 am
Quite

I'm getting rather sick of the anti-vegan jokes (I'm not vegan) I keep seeing. Posted on facebook, pictures here and there.

Eat a varied diet, exercise well, you'll probably be fit and healthy.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on June 14, 2016, 09:29:53 am
Have you been reading the Telegraph, mr Charly? A week ago they had a feature of "ten amazing athletes you never knew were vegan" from Mike Tyson to people I'd never heard of and can't remember (but they might still be famous!). This week they had some bloke saying "I'm vegetarian and it's made me healthier but vegans are weird and unhealthy". Where has this sudden interest in veganism come from?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 14, 2016, 09:45:13 am
Nope, it's stupid pictures and inane jokes all over.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on June 14, 2016, 10:22:42 am
I think that we all need to find our own diet.  Can the veto sustain you for a longish climb - yes.  Two very intense sessions yesterday. the a 500m climb in8.6km today.  No carbs at all.  Now I was not first to the top as I am unfit at the moment but I had no need for anything to eat.  I think kept works for me.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on June 14, 2016, 12:37:00 pm
I think that we all need to find our own diet.  Can the veto sustain you for a longish climb - yes.  Two very intense sessions yesterday. the a 500m climb in8.6km today.  No carbs at all.  Now I was not first to the top as I am unfit at the moment but I had no need for anything to eat.  I think kept works for me.

chris's auto text amuses...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on June 14, 2016, 12:46:45 pm


Quite

I'm getting rather sick of the anti-vegan jokes (I'm not vegan) I keep seeing. Posted on facebook, pictures here and there.

Eat a varied diet, exercise well, you'll probably be fit and healthy.

Equally, I'm getting pretty sick of vegan scare mongering.
Eat a varied diet, exercise well, and you might end up fat and unhealthy anyway.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 14, 2016, 03:26:25 pm


Quite

I'm getting rather sick of the anti-vegan jokes (I'm not vegan) I keep seeing. Posted on facebook, pictures here and there.

Eat a varied diet, exercise well, you'll probably be fit and healthy.

Equally, I'm getting pretty sick of vegan scare mongering.
Eat a varied diet, exercise well, and you might end up fat and unhealthy anyway.
I think that bit is age.
It sucketh a big fat stinky one, m'dear. I hope you are more successful at blowing raspberries at it than I.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on June 14, 2016, 04:07:22 pm
The Food Program from yesterday afternoon's radio 4 is worth a listen. Not keto or carbo, but micro biome and actually quite sensible and interesting - obviously really as it included blue cheese...

Mike
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 14, 2016, 04:34:59 pm
I heard that prog, yes, v interesting.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on June 14, 2016, 05:58:03 pm
I apologise for my auto corrections.  My brain is functioning somewhat below par at the moment.  i don't sleep well away from home and the physical exercise.  4 days of tempo and above exercise have fried my cognitive abilities somewhat.  I am having an early nights sleep tonight and only a 115km team time trial tomorrow!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on June 14, 2016, 06:35:44 pm
No need for apology! I was amused!
Srsly I hope you get the R&R you so obviously need &
Good luck with the TT!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on June 14, 2016, 06:53:52 pm
He probably just needs some carbs.

#LMT
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on June 14, 2016, 07:09:47 pm
You might think that but I can't possibly comment....
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on June 22, 2016, 11:11:47 am
Have you been reading the Telegraph, mr Charly? A week ago they had a feature of "ten amazing athletes you never knew were vegan" from Mike Tyson to people I'd never heard of and can't remember (but they might still be famous!). This week they had some bloke saying "I'm vegetarian and it's made me healthier but vegans are weird and unhealthy". Where has this sudden interest in veganism come from?

Because we care for the planet, we care for the animals and we care for what we eat. People say that we are morally superior - and they'd be right.

If you have a spare four and a half hours, I'd suggest watching cowspiracy, forks over knives and earthlings to see what a state the animal ag industry has bought upon us, and the damage we are doing to ourselves as a human species as well as to others. :)

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on June 22, 2016, 11:15:57 am
He probably just needs some carbs.

#LMT

Finally Chris talks some sense, the primary fuel for the brain is glucose, although preferred from non refined plant based sources. Bananas, apples, etc.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on June 22, 2016, 11:44:15 am
He probably just needs some carbs.

#LMT

Finally Chris talks some sense, the primary fuel for the brain is glucose, although preferred from non refined plant based sources. Bananas, apples, etc.

(My Bold).

I'm not sure the brain has a primary fuel - most brain tissue works equally well on ketones or glucose. The remaining tissues that are actually glucose dependent (those cells that lack mitochondria) can easily be supplied by glucose manufactured in the liver.

Some children with intractable epilepsy find their brains work much better on ketones - or at least, malfunction less.

A wholly unethical piece of research was done in the early 70s to prove that brains work fine on ketones. They took several diabetics, adapted them to a ketogenic diet, then pumped them so full of insulin, their blood glucose level was somewhere around 1mmol - a level which should have at the very least rendered them comatose. Not only were they still alive, they seemed completely unaffected, proving that their brains could work just fine without glucose.

Most tissue types can use ketones for fuel. Skeletal muscle prefers to burn free fatty acid over ketones, but requires increasing amounts of glucose in order to work anaerobically; FFAs just don't burn hot enough when you're doing your birthday squats.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on June 22, 2016, 11:58:34 am
He probably just needs some carbs.

#LMT

Finally Chris talks some sense, the primary fuel for the brain is glucose, although preferred from non refined plant based sources. Bananas, apples, etc.

(My Bold).

I'm not sure the brain has a primary fuel - most brain tissue works equally well on ketones or glucose. The remaining tissues that are actually glucose dependent (those cells that lack mitochondria) can easily be supplied by glucose manufactured in the liver.

Some children with intractable epilepsy find their brains work much better on ketones - or at least, malfunction less.

A wholly unethical piece of research was done in the early 70s to prove that brains work fine on ketones. They took several diabetics, adapted them to a ketogenic diet, then pumped them so full of insulin, their blood glucose level was somewhere around 1mmol - a level which should have at the very least rendered them comatose. Not only were they still alive, they seemed completely unaffected, proving that their brains could work just fine without glucose.

Most tissue types can use ketones for fuel. Skeletal muscle prefers to burn free fatty acid over ketones, but requires increasing amounts of glucose in order to work anaerobically; FFAs just don't burn hot enough when you're doing your birthday squats.

 ::-)

It has, it's called glucose.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Morat on June 22, 2016, 12:16:53 pm
Sorry to bring the debate to down to a really trivial question but does the "Keto Breath" go away after a while or do you simply stop noticing it? I've been in full ketosis a few times now and not noticed the breath, but others did. I'm pondering going back to keto but if it means my wife has to live with a stinky husband for more than a week or so then it might not be a goer.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on June 22, 2016, 01:09:30 pm
Sorry to bring the debate to down to a really trivial question but does the "Keto Breath" go away after a while or do you simply stop noticing it? I've been in full ketosis a few times now and not noticed the breath, but others did. I'm pondering going back to keto but if it means my wife has to live with a stinky husband for more than a week or so then it might not be a goer.

It goes away. Once you start burning ketones for fuel, there won't be any (much) excess in your breath or wee (yes, your wee will stink too - they don't tell you about that bit!). It'll probably take a few weeks.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on June 22, 2016, 01:13:16 pm
It has, it's called glucose.

Er, yeah OK. Whatevs.

Meanwhile - we haven't had a gratuitous keto food picture for AGES, so here's a picture of my lunch.

Macros: 15% Carbs, 15% Protein, 70% Fat, and just for LMT - 0% Animal  :thumbsup:

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7058/27759872061_69f3c8585d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Ji3APP)

ETA: You know what, he's right - I am feeling morally higher.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on June 22, 2016, 06:42:46 pm
Moral superiority is not an objective viewpoint, anyone can (and has) claimed that and gone on to commit what others would consider atrocities.

Somebody once tried to tell me I could get all my daily protein needs from broccoli, until I pointed out their g/kg confusion rendering their argument possible, but wholly impractical. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on June 22, 2016, 06:53:06 pm
Given that during human evolution to date the main pressure was a surviving on as few calories as possible, and not the current surfeit of them, it's no surprise that we'll metabolise and use what energy sources we can.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on June 23, 2016, 12:12:34 am
Moral superiority is not an objective viewpoint, anyone can (and has) claimed that and gone on to commit what others would consider atrocitics. Somebody once tried to tell me I could get all my daily protein needs from broccoli, until I pointed out their g/kg confusion rendering their argument possible, but wholly impractical.

Eh? Statements that lack context yet ooze hyperbole adds nothing to the discussion. It's widely documented the harm that animal ag does to the environment and what the same products which all contain saturated fat and cholesterol does to the human body.

And you'd be amazed at how little protein the body actually needs. 5 percent is about right, more if you are into weight lifting and the like. I get all mine from Bananas, in fact if you look at the macros of most plant based fruits these are the type of macros you should be aiming for in your diet. Let mothernature show you the way.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on June 23, 2016, 05:52:01 am
neither does you're statement that vegans are morally superior, because you say so.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on June 23, 2016, 09:51:26 am
It has, it's called glucose.

Er, yeah OK. Whatevs.

Meanwhile - we haven't had a gratuitous keto food picture for AGES, so here's a picture of my lunch.

Macros: 15% Carbs, 15% Protein, 70% Fat, and just for LMT - 0% Animal  :thumbsup:

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7058/27759872061_69f3c8585d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Ji3APP)

ETA: You know what, he's right - I am feeling morally higher.

Looks lovely. Needs more GREEN, thobut.  :P

But slightly less flippantly now: doesn't look very much food to me. That's simply calorie restriction; just in a way that works for you. Adding some chick peas in place of the nuts would drastically change the macronutrient composition but you'd still lose weight. It's still calories in < out. (Of course, your particular satiety pathways may work better with fat, in which case crack on. I need protein and bulk, fat doesn't do it for me.)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on June 23, 2016, 10:01:06 am
But slightly less flippantly now: doesn't look very much food to me. That's simply calorie restriction; just in a way that works for you. Adding some chick peas in place of the nuts would drastically change the macronutrient composition but you'd still lose weight. It's still calories in < out. (Of course, your particular satiety pathways may work better with fat, in which case crack on. I need protein and bulk, fat doesn't do it for me.)

Well - weight loss requires an energy deficit (which is subtly different to calories in < out because we're not cars), 'tis true. FWIW, MFP reckoned 758kcals, which is quite enough for lunch - any more and I'd be dozing off at the computer!

My understanding from experience and what I've learned from others is, you need to create the right hormonal conditions for encouraging use of stored fat (ie: chronically minimise Insulin), and then you need to use that stored fat (ie: exercise or at least, be active) without replacing it with more (energy deficit).

The veggie stir fry is a go-to meal several times a week as it's nice and filling without too much protein.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on June 23, 2016, 10:11:56 am
Nuts have a surprising amount of calories, the vast majority of the energy in that meal comes from the nuts unless there's added fats or oils.

A 758kCal lunch would be a bit light for me unless I was on a rest day.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on June 23, 2016, 02:35:46 pm
Nuts have a surprising amount of calories, the vast majority of the energy in that meal comes from the nuts unless there's added fats or oils.

A 758kCal lunch would be a bit light for me unless I was on a rest day.

What about breakfast, second breakfast, elevensies, afternoon snack, tea, dinner, supper and a little something before bed?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on June 23, 2016, 05:21:54 pm
See, 758 kcal is a lot for me, trying as I'm doing to stick to 500 kcal per meal. 4 or 5 meals/day. Lunch today was 250g salad, 250g chick peas, and a sharp vinaigrette with lemon and garam masala. And fruit. Much more carbohydrate but fewer calories. It's what works for any given individual that counts, I suppose.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on June 23, 2016, 06:01:03 pm
I often skip breakfast, and require 3000kcal on training days to break even.

Today's lunch.

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7724/27783600851_56d65f6ce7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Jk9dyT)Lunch! (https://flic.kr/p/Jk9dyT) by SimonP2006 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/27424426@N00/), on Flickr

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7686/27758355272_99d8eab002_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JhUPWh)Lunch! (https://flic.kr/p/JhUPWh) by SimonP2006 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/27424426@N00/), on Flickr

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7465/27825280386_0c7a4757c4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JoPQry)Lunch! (https://flic.kr/p/JoPQry) by SimonP2006 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/27424426@N00/), on Flickr

(https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7498/27581875150_49cc7fa74c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/J2jjxy)Lunch! (https://flic.kr/p/J2jjxy) by SimonP2006 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/27424426@N00/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Si S on June 24, 2016, 12:26:16 pm
This discussion has mad me realise why I'm so grumpy when I get home in the evenings, typical intake during the day appears to be circa 850kcal, the commute requires about 700.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on June 24, 2016, 12:54:30 pm
It doesn't matter, if you're running on fat.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on June 24, 2016, 01:21:59 pm
I'm really not sure about that and have little evidence to back this statement up but I imagine/postulate that when I'm running on visceral/recently ingested fat (ie have eaten sufficient calories within past day or so) I feel fine but if I'm in overall calorie deficit and am living off stored subcutaneous fat I feel hungry/sleepy/grumpy...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Si S on June 24, 2016, 01:24:25 pm
It doesn't matter, if you're running on fat.

If I am it's entirely accidental, I doubt it though, although my diet has always been pretty much protein based I suspect there's too many carbs in it to have any sort of adaptation.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on June 24, 2016, 02:12:54 pm
Today I had breakfast so ham egg and pea salad and yoghurt with granola and fruit compote.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on June 24, 2016, 04:11:50 pm
Given that any excess protein is converted to carb by the liver, eating more energy in the form of protein is an expensive way of upping carbs...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ian H on June 24, 2016, 04:18:22 pm
Given that any excess protein is converted to carb by the liver, eating more energy in the form of protein is an expensive way of upping carbs...

Careful now, you're veering dangerously close to actual science.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on June 24, 2016, 07:21:31 pm
Heh heh.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on June 24, 2016, 09:34:00 pm
Ian's got it right, hands over eyes when science comes up.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on June 26, 2016, 12:48:23 am
Given that any excess protein is converted to carb by the liver, eating more energy in the form of protein is an expensive way of upping carbs...

But can be pleasant from time to time. No?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on June 26, 2016, 12:19:56 pm
Given that any excess protein is converted to carb by the liver, eating more energy in the form of protein is an expensive way of upping carbs...

But can be pleasant from time to time. No?

My diet of steak, salad and strawberries is pleasant enough...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on June 27, 2016, 09:30:30 pm
Egg n  bacon for breakfast
Chicken salad for lunch (thighs dusted in paprika, cayenne, garlic, onion and salt, delicious)
Bag of nuts for snacks
Cauli and Brocolli bake in a creamy cheese sauce for supper.

Soon be time to fire up the slow cooker for some chilli.

Life is hell...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on June 30, 2016, 07:54:20 pm
I have discovered Keto Chocolate Mugcakes. With whipped cream.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on June 30, 2016, 08:29:15 pm
I have discovered Keto Chocolate Mugcakes. With whipped cream.

What took you so long?  :D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on July 08, 2016, 10:28:10 pm
And where's the recipe?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on July 09, 2016, 09:48:20 am
There are loads. Google it.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on July 28, 2016, 08:20:24 am
I quite often have egg n bacon for breakfast but I've been feeling a bit concerned about how much bacon I've been eating lately, so this morning I went for the healthy option and had a cheese omelette.

Next up was to prepare something for lunch, but the cupboard was a bit bare apart from some salad and 'slaw. So I frazzled up some bacon to top it off. :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 10, 2016, 09:11:32 pm
Some really interesting (and some not so) reading in this thread.

I started my LCHF/Banting/Keto/wevs journey almost a week ago now and have been blown away by results so far. Obviously early days yet, but still.

One of the reasons I jumped on the bandwagon was reading this a while back - http://julianabuhring.com/keto-baby/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on August 11, 2016, 12:07:21 pm
Some really interesting (and some not so) reading in this thread.

I started my LCHF/Banting/Keto/wevs journey almost a week ago now and have been blown away by results so far. Obviously early days yet, but still.

One of the reasons I jumped on the bandwagon was reading this a while back - http://julianabuhring.com/keto-baby/

Hmm, dunno, ''Fourth, I sleep better. My average is 7-8 hours a night, and I wake up feeling sharp and energetic'' yet ''I get up in the morning and have a coffee or two''

''Things like bacon and salami are great sources of protein and fat, and while absolutely delicious, I have stopped eating anything from pigs. They are just too intelligent, I think about eating my dog and it just hurts. Yeah, conscientious objector. I am feeling that way about most animals these days. So, eggs. Lotsa eggs.''

They are also sources of cholesterol, and whilst it is good that she has made the connection between Porky the Pig and bacon, instead she is consuming eggs which have been shown to be one of the highest causes of saturated fat and cholesterol. I wonder if she knows how many baby male chicks are killed within hours of birth?

The funny thing that I'm seeing with a Keto diet is it being billed as good for endurance, as long as you don't go above threshold and with the right training you don't need to go on a Keto diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 11, 2016, 12:12:13 pm

Hmm, dunno, ''Fourth, I sleep better. My average is 7-8 hours a night, and I wake up feeling sharp and energetic'' yet ''I get up in the morning and have a coffee or two''

''Things like bacon and salami are great sources of protein and fat, and while absolutely delicious, I have stopped eating anything from pigs. They are just too intelligent, I think about eating my dog and it just hurts. Yeah, conscientious objector. I am feeling that way about most animals these days. So, eggs. Lotsa eggs.''

They are also sources of cholesterol, and whilst it is good that she has made the connection between Porky the Pig and bacon, instead she is consuming eggs which have been shown to be one of the highest causes of saturated fat and cholesterol. I wonder if she knows how many baby male chicks are killed within hours of birth?


Why do you think the only reason people drinking coffee = an energy boost? That's not why I drink it. Peculiar.

Cholesterol = https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/eggs-fats-and-the-new-dietary-guidelines/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on August 11, 2016, 12:53:27 pm

Hmm, dunno, ''Fourth, I sleep better. My average is 7-8 hours a night, and I wake up feeling sharp and energetic'' yet ''I get up in the morning and have a coffee or two''

''Things like bacon and salami are great sources of protein and fat, and while absolutely delicious, I have stopped eating anything from pigs. They are just too intelligent, I think about eating my dog and it just hurts. Yeah, conscientious objector. I am feeling that way about most animals these days. So, eggs. Lotsa eggs.''

They are also sources of cholesterol, and whilst it is good that she has made the connection between Porky the Pig and bacon, instead she is consuming eggs which have been shown to be one of the highest causes of saturated fat and cholesterol. I wonder if she knows how many baby male chicks are killed within hours of birth?


Why do you think the only reason people drinking coffee = an energy boost? That's not why I drink it. Peculiar.

Cholesterol = https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/eggs-fats-and-the-new-dietary-guidelines/

That may be why you don't drink it, but one of the reasons that people drink coffee is the caffeine. And be careful about quoting links to studies, I can do that.
http://nutritionfacts.org/2013/09/10/eggs-vs-cigarettes-in-atherosclerosis/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on August 11, 2016, 04:31:00 pm
Quote
I come here to hear about peoples experiences, advice & opinions (positive & negative) of low carb eating.

please could we split off the last few replies

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 11, 2016, 04:32:48 pm
...as an aside I understand that is possible to eat vegan and be ketogenic. That would be interesting to hear about.

Not reeeeally. Vegetarian is easy, but not vegan.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on August 11, 2016, 05:25:57 pm
...as an aside I understand that is possible to eat vegan and be ketogenic. That would be interesting to hear about.

Not reeeeally. Vegetarian is easy, but not vegan.

Keto on a vegan diet is perfectly doable.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on August 12, 2016, 10:45:21 am
It amazes me how someone who openly states “Meat is murder”, can thoughtlessly chop the head off a living carrot.

Maybe the vegetarian thinks that because a carrot isn’t woolly and cuddly and doesn’t hop round a field making bleating noises, but merely stands in the ground, it doesn’t have any quality of life, and it doesn’t deserve a ‘Thank you’ for giving its life for the nourishment of its murderer.

Vegetable rights.


Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 12, 2016, 10:55:50 am
Can someone link me to the thread with the other replies in? Or am I banned from that board?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on August 12, 2016, 01:18:12 pm
It's in Politics and Other Big Issues (POBI) in the pub.
As debate there can be 'lively', you will need to ask rogerzilla to enable you to enter.
There be DRAGONS!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 12, 2016, 01:29:35 pm
It's in Politics and Other Big Issues (POBI) in the pub.
As debate there can be 'lively', you will need to ask rogerzilla to enable you to enter.
There be DRAGONS!

Oh, I'm not /that/ arsed tbh. Shame.

I'm 10lbs down at the weigh in this morning. Which is nice. All water like, but nice still.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hulver on August 12, 2016, 01:49:18 pm
It's in Politics and Other Big Issues (POBI) in the pub.
As debate there can be 'lively', you will need to ask rogerzilla to enable you to enter.
There be DRAGONS!

Oh, I'm not /that/ arsed tbh. Shame.

I'm 10lbs down at the weigh in this morning. Which is nice. All water like, but nice still.

You don't need to ask anybody. Go to Profile - Account settings. In a menu there (you might have to hover over something, depends what skin you're using) There's a "Group Membership" option. Add "P&OBI".
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on August 12, 2016, 02:02:04 pm
I sit corrected.
There be DRAGONS thobut!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hulver on August 12, 2016, 02:17:09 pm
I sit corrected.
There be DRAGONS thobut!

Yep, and grumpy people who are never wrong.  ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: jahs on August 18, 2016, 07:56:47 pm
I've been following keto for a few months now and continued this on the ACH Iceland trip. Worked fine, and had time to experiment with additional carbs. Cake etc. give a boost but seemed to make me drowsy afterwards. UCAN superstarch didn't have the drowsy effect. Best results seemed to come from not eating on the ride and just having some food at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 18, 2016, 10:10:26 pm
Anyone got any advice on drinks? Water is great and all, but I'd love to mix it up a bit...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on August 19, 2016, 12:04:43 am
Anyone got any advice on drinks? Water is great and all, but I'd love to mix it up a bit...

Water + Zero (Electrolytes)
Tesco no added sugar cloudy lemonade (you have to be able to put up with Sucralose if you want this).
Diet Coke (Aspartame - not as bad as the Permanently Paranoid would make out - but not "real").
Tea
Coffee
Green Tea
Bullet Proof coffee (Google it, and get ready to try the Hug inna Mug that is coffee + butter... Mmmm)
Vodka
Dry red wine

Beer is liquid bread, and is verboten if you're being strict - proof if you need it, there is no god.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 19, 2016, 02:40:35 pm
Anyone got any advice on drinks? Water is great and all, but I'd love to mix it up a bit...

Water + Zero (Electrolytes)
Tesco no added sugar cloudy lemonade (you have to be able to put up with Sucralose if you want this).
Diet Coke (Aspartame - not as bad as the Permanently Paranoid would make out - but not "real").
Tea
Coffee
Green Tea
Bullet Proof coffee (Google it, and get ready to try the Hug inna Mug that is coffee + butter... Mmmm)
Vodka
Dry red wine

Beer is liquid bread, and is verboten if you're being strict - proof if you need it, there is no god.

I've drank 'bulletproof' coffee for a couple of years now - usually coconut oil, but butter now and again. Not keen on tea without milk!

Everything I've read has warned me off fizzy drinks? Especially diet coke/zero. Is it actually OK?

Re: Beer. I have no idea why I started doing this before Belgium  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ian H on August 19, 2016, 04:30:32 pm

Everything I've read has warned me off fizzy drinks? Especially diet coke/zero. Is it actually OK?


Badoit.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on August 19, 2016, 05:14:11 pm
I've acquired a taste for single malt whisky , though not when I'm riding. :)

The weird bit is I no longer like tea with milk...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on August 19, 2016, 09:25:43 pm
IMO 'Diet' fizzy drinks are fairly harmless. (They are not tooth-friendly, like anything that fizzes, especially if fruity.) I really don't believe aspartame is harmful. Some people dislike its taste.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on August 21, 2016, 01:28:43 pm
anybody got any Keto juicing recipes to share or books to recommend?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on August 22, 2016, 09:43:40 pm
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast. 

I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend.  As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe. 

On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11.  Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end. 

So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ningishzidda on August 23, 2016, 08:26:14 am
The telling statistic is "What speed did you average riding back UP the hill against the wind?"
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on August 23, 2016, 11:24:13 am
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast. 

I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend.  As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe. 

On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11.  Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end. 

So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.

For balance you perhaps should have added the strong SW wind that you had behind you?


Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 23, 2016, 11:30:16 am
I got a KOM the other day. Keto baby!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on August 23, 2016, 11:31:50 am
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast. 

I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend.  As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe. 

On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11.  Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end. 

So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.
If you're not really out of breath, it's hardly a measure of your "top end", is it?

(I'm not bashing keto, just bashing this useless anecdatum!)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on August 23, 2016, 11:32:14 am
I got a KOM the other day. Keto baby!

I got six on one ride - plant based all the way.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 23, 2016, 11:34:48 am
I got a KOM the other day. Keto baby!

I got six on one ride - plant based all the way.

I'm fat though.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on August 23, 2016, 11:54:59 am
I thought keto aided weight loss?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: D.A.L.E. on August 23, 2016, 11:56:11 am
I'm less fat than I was.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on August 23, 2016, 02:37:27 pm
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast. 

I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend.  As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe. 

On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11.  Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end. 

So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.

For balance you perhaps should have added the strong SW wind that you had behind you?

Only for the first third.  Definite crosswind for a long stretch.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on August 29, 2016, 10:36:55 am
Interesting Guardian article.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on August 29, 2016, 10:57:30 am
What happened to John Yudkin was deplorable; reputation destroyed by conniving Big Food Business and the US administration of the time . And waddya know, he was right all along.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on August 29, 2016, 11:05:28 am
Actually Chris, I don't think that Big Food business was the prime mover.  I think it was his "colleagues".
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on August 29, 2016, 11:10:44 am
Mostly Ancel Keys - acting under instruction from the US administration, who in turn were pandering to the National Corn Growers.
This happened at about the same time that HFCS was invented - there was a lot of vested interests leaning on the government.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on August 29, 2016, 12:00:03 pm
Certainly Ancel keys was a big part of it.  I have not seen anything to suggest he was paid by big business.  McGovern was a major part of the witch-hunt and we know how he ran other witch-hunts!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on August 29, 2016, 12:23:51 pm
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2016/07/05/ajcn.116.133561.abstract

Study funded by organization set up by Taubes and Attia, but with independent researchers. Not the answer they were hoping for I would think.

Discussion here from Stephan Gueynet

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2016/07/nusi-funded-study-serves-up_6.html?m=1
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on August 29, 2016, 02:58:49 pm
Nothing new regarding refined sugar, sugar from whole foods source though....

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on August 29, 2016, 03:42:19 pm
My semi-educated view on sugars is that they are treated similarly by the body, whatever the source.

Most natural foods that contain sugars have them quite well-diluted and/or padded out with fibre. There might be 10g sugar in 100g apple but you'd need to chew your apple for a couple of minutes to get this sugar. There's about the same amount of sugar in 100ml of juice or full-fat cola, which you can swallow in 10 seconds, without feeling as if you've eaten a thing.

Some sugars are just far to easy to consume in large amounts.

They are mostly refined but the issue is the ease of over-consumption, whatever the source.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on August 31, 2016, 08:26:08 am
Just wondering if i can get some input from People doing significant formal training on a keto diet.

I have been following the keto diet for about 8 months now and my endurance is great.

I recently started working with a coach with more structured intense efforts.

Monday evening I did (for me) a very big set of out of the saddle power climbs, 4 strava PBs and a new power record.  Tuesday ate standard keto meals. relatively poor sleep last night
This morning went to do my turbo session and legs barely managed the warmup!.

It may be that I am not recovering as well, I am 58.

It may be that I just have not recovered.

But I wondered if those doing formal training find they need to up the carbs after very intense efforts to replenish the glycogen fast enough?

Thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on August 31, 2016, 09:53:36 am
Generally speaking, I've found recovery to be quicker when I'm strictly keto - carby diets tend to be inflammatory.

Could just be a one off? More protein after a hard anaerobic workout will help both muscle recovery, and replenishing your glycogen.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on August 31, 2016, 09:59:27 am
I have no intention of going on a keto diet but I'm curious if those on it follow the 20min guideline (take on board fuel within 20min of ceasing exercise).

When I was doing lots of miles (for me) I found it made a lot of difference to my recovery. My refuelling was usually a drink that was high in protein, probably something you would regard as ok on a keto diet actually. Low carbs, I switched from commercial sports SiS recovery drinks to home-made ones based on milk with large amounts of cocoa powder (not hot chocolate powder, cocoa powder).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on August 31, 2016, 10:15:26 am
Thanks Chris. I did take a protein supplement and then did an hour of zone 1 cycling yesterday just to keep moving. May be a larger helping of protein next time.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on August 31, 2016, 10:20:24 pm
Thanks Chris. I did take a protein supplement and then did an hour of zone 1 cycling yesterday just to keep moving. May be a larger helping of protein next time.


Hi Chris

Peter Attia eat starch/carb before/after intense efforts when he was keto. He also promoted 'super starch', although I am not entirely convinced of it's efficacy. Although it was low GI, it seemed to not fully release it's glucose and I wondered if you could achieve the same by just using a conventional glucose or maltodextrin energy drink at a lower concentration and over time?

He has now left NuSci and is silent on nutrition it seems.

Mike

Edited to add - taking in a lot of protein will replenish muscle glycogen will achieve this through breaking the protein down to glucose for circulation in the blood and storage as glycogen in the muscles. Would low concentration carb work without spiking insulin aggresively, which I presume is the aim. A question?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on August 31, 2016, 10:59:50 pm
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2016/07/05/ajcn.116.133561.abstract

Study funded by organization set up by Taubes and Attia, but with independent researchers. Not the answer they were hoping for I would think.

Discussion here from Stephan Gueynet

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2016/07/nusi-funded-study-serves-up_6.html?m=1

If you can avoid the zealots, there's some interesting commentary on this study, including a transcript of a discussion that Hall, the lead researcher, had online.

My initial thoughts, not yet conclusive of course:

The study demonstrates the failure of the carb insulin model of obesity, pushing us back to calories in out for total weight gain/loss. This is consistent with work done previously in the UK.

Hall acknowledges that satiety is a big issue in achieving maintaining weight. Anecdotal evidence supports the view that fat based diets don't leave people as hungry. This is corroborated with my experience,  to the extent I find it hard to eat enough on a very low carb diet.

The study doesn't consider the possible long term health benefit or consequences of limiting carb intake.

Mike
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on August 31, 2016, 11:22:00 pm
Just wondering if i can get some input from People doing significant formal training on a keto diet.

I have been following the keto diet for about 8 months now and my endurance is great.

I recently started working with a coach with more structured intense efforts.

Monday evening I did (for me) a very big set of out of the saddle power climbs, 4 strava PBs and a new power record.  Tuesday ate standard keto meals. relatively poor sleep last night
This morning went to do my turbo session and legs barely managed the warmup!.

It may be that I am not recovering as well, I am 58.

It may be that I just have not recovered.

But I wondered if those doing formal training find they need to up the carbs after very intense efforts to replenish the glycogen fast enough?

Thanks for the advice.

Not really formal training as such, but my first 200 audax at the weekend. Normal carbs for me are about 50g/day.

Sunday, I turned the insulin pump down to 20% of normal. Total carbs consumed 230g in the day, about 180g on the ride. Completed in 7 h 15 riding time vs target of 8hr. So approx 20-25g/hr, the textbooks for diabetes would suggest 130g/hr for my bodyweight at 18 mph.

Carb consumption was aimed at keeping the blood glucose between 5 and 7. I've not experimented with letting it go lower consistently.

Send fairly positive to me.

EDITED - checked my records and I misreported the carbs a bit, but the conclusion remains the same.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on September 01, 2016, 07:59:03 am
Mike and Ely

Thank you for the input.  I saw that paper and I must say that I was not overly impressed by it.  I would be interested to know who designed it as it does not look much better than the majority of previous nutrition research.  I certainly do not think that would be passed by any of the funding streams I apply to!!
However it does seem to suggest that, as one would expect, the situation is more complex than we simplistically think.  hopefully at some point we will have get a synthesis of the various views and can move away from the bullying rhetoric of the last 50 years.

I think I will try to measure my ketones on a more regular basis and up my post exercise session carbs and see what happens.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on September 01, 2016, 10:42:32 am
Mike and Ely

Thank you for the input.  I saw that paper and I must say that I was not overly impressed by it.  I would be interested to know who designed it as it does not look much better than the majority of previous nutrition research.  I certainly do not think that would be passed by any of the funding streams I apply to!!
However it does seem to suggest that, as one would expect, the situation is more complex than we simplistically think.  hopefully at some point we will have get a synthesis of the various views and can move away from the bullying rhetoric of the last 50 years.

I think I will try to measure my ketones on a more regular basis and up my post exercise session carbs and see what happens.

Hi Chris

The second study hasn't been published yet, but the protocol was 2 months in a metabolic ward with 1 month on a Base diet then a switch to ketogenic, replacing carb with fat and maintaining caloric equivalence, plus controlled exercise too. The diet was well controlled and the design agreed/supported by Taubes and Attia. Hall has discussed the results meanwhile and that was what I referred to above. Nusi funded the study.

Another outcome was that there was an initial loss of protein on the keto diet, although I think that stabilised fairly quickly.

The situation is clearly complex, but there are some simple takeaways - certainly for individuals with fully functional endocrine systems (apparently almost no elite athletes!) around energy in and out balance. Other issues are harder to get clarity on still, and there may well be some advantage to be gained in endurance performance by using a keto regime to support an increase in the amount of fat burned at higher exercise rates - provided of course the overall rate achievable doesn't fall.

I agree some well supported consensus and less name calling would be good. These aren't beliefs to be held on to, just the mechanics of how our, variable, bodies work.

Mike
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on September 01, 2016, 12:14:23 pm
Coming back to the discussion of recovery from hard efforts:

 - aging leads to more recovery time needed
 - ditching hard efforts is probably not a good idea as they help to reduce the decline in aerobic capacity

Also, being tired after one unaccustomed hard effort doesn't mean you won't adapt to them and be able to recover better in future.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on September 01, 2016, 01:38:09 pm
Simon

This was the hardest effort for a while but I have done hard efforts although acknowledge that I am deskilled by recent injury.  I was asking specifically about adding in carbs to replenish glycogen stores in addition to extra protein. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on September 01, 2016, 05:12:06 pm
The effect on glycogen recovery of the post-workout feed is normally fairly minimal, AIUI. Normally people recover muscle glycogen adequately via normal dietary intake; nutrients that might otherwise be stored as fat should be directed to muscle glycogen. However, given low carb intake the post-workout feed might be more effective. But note that peripheral insulin resistance can occur in ketosis and this might counter that.

The typical protocol includes some protein which increases the insulin response over and above carbs alone.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: roffa on September 08, 2016, 10:20:01 pm
I have no intention of going on a keto diet but I'm curious if those on it follow the 20min guideline (take on board fuel within 20min of ceasing exercise).

When I was doing lots of miles (for me) I found it made a lot of difference to my recovery. My refuelling was usually a drink that was high in protein, probably something you would regard as ok on a keto diet actually. Low carbs, I switched from commercial sports SiS recovery drinks to home-made ones based on milk with large amounts of cocoa powder (not hot chocolate powder, cocoa powder).

I cycle fairly long distances, and have been on a keto type diet for over a year. I don't do fueling during rides, no "recovery" whatever after, and recover fine. I do however drink more fluids than I would if not on keto and I up the electrolytes, especially sodium! High protein not a good idea on keto, for me. What I like is the freedom not to have to refuel carbs every hour. I can eat normal meals (keto pattern), consume some fats like mct oil. I sometimes use a ketone drink (ketocana), but I do that less and less. I think keto is excellent for endurance.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on October 04, 2016, 10:00:46 am
Hi,

I posted the quotes below in the year record thread....

Thought you might like my completely unscientific evaluation after 2 months of Keto.

My weight loss is from 17st 10 to 15st 10.   11cm off my waist (approx 200 miles aweek on the bike plus various gym work but otherwise sedentry)

My partner does no real exercise but is down a similar amount - even more loss in terms of measurements and most importantly the upset stomach issues she had are gone, and her inflammation markers have all but disappeared....This was the main reason we entered into this, for its reported benefits in helping large cell arthritis.



"I have recently gone through a Keto/High fat adaption period of 2 months which is why I asked about Steves diet.

Main objective for me was to lose weight (I have always struggled and cycling more and more just resulted in being more and more hungry), and to help my partners medical condition. (Keto has some reported benefits in reducing inflammation markers)

The results so far are staggering ... I am losing centimeters off my body each weak and fuelling rides is a thing of the past.   I am comfortable on fasted rides up to 8 hours and the biggest benefit is I have no urge to feed as soon as I return or in the following day or weak.

High Fat diet isn't a miracle or a fad imo ... its just a very effective way to take sugar and carbs out of your diet.  This allows weight loss because you eat less, fasted training and then you have to decide how to add carbs back in.  For me its a way of resetting a bad diet and starting again without a high sugar/carb dependency.

I was completely addicted to sugar and carbs.  I think I have kicked the sugar and bread habits now.  Its staggering how much sugar I was consuming before even in 'good' foods and I am completely shocked by how little I really needed to carb load or fuel a ride with sugar.

I very much doubt its a good choice for track cycling or time trialing, or anything involving a massive effort - but its a great diet for weight loss combined with endurance sport.   You just have the pain of the adaption process  and you cant cheat on this diet (unless your doing 240 miles a day...then you can afford to take In some extra carbs and sugar im sure!).   Im very encouraged that Steve has stuck to it and found it useful.   Really interested in Steves comments about Olive oil and sugar free drinks too - I had not considered either of those points."
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on October 05, 2016, 12:27:34 am
I understand your comments about using Keto to reset a bad diet and that may work for you but ... I dunno. Some describe Keto as a 'forever change and whilst there will inevitably be  lapses I think that's where I'll be. I find it's exactly like being an alcoholic/drug addict;  sugar - which for me includes all carb based foods - is a drug that just screws me up, and it's simpler just to swear off the stuff completely. My only regret is that I didn't find out about the Keto diet 30 years ago.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: stevie63 on October 05, 2016, 12:24:36 pm
The more I read about LCHF diets, the more I think I would like to give it a go. But can anyone point me in the direction of the best resources to come up with meal ideas. Is there a book that could be recommended for this?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on October 05, 2016, 12:40:11 pm
The more I read about LCHF diets, the more I think I would like to give it a go. But can anyone point me in the direction of the best resources to come up with meal ideas. Is there a book that could be recommended for this?

What you want to do is to work out what suitable food types you like ... then buy them and then think about meals each day.  Basically it just involves buying and cooking 'real' food.  Fresh ingredients and good meat cost us more but we are eating less, buying less, not eating out much and saving a fortune in takeaways ect so we treat our self to good meat and veg.

My breakfast is normally either nothing or eggs and bacon
My lunch is either nothing green salad with loads of grated parmesan and cesar dressing with what ever cold meat was left over from dinner
Dinner tends to be meat with green veg and gravy or meat with salad... or some kind of eggs.

Slow cooker stuff is great.  We have Bolognese and chilli without the rice and pasta.... we have red and green curries without the added extras.
We also eat lots of stews and creamy casseroles....all of these work great for lunch the next day

Fat head pizza is just as good as real pizza - google it, its easy.

I have the occasional blueberry and cream pudding.

Other great puddings are low carb, drk chocolate mug cakes and low carb cheesecake.

Almond flour can be used in most things as a substitute for flour but it should be a treat, not a staple.

Search for Keto recipes, or reddit keto recipes and there is masses of stuff out there.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on October 05, 2016, 12:48:31 pm
I understand your comments about using Keto to reset a bad diet and that may work for you but ... I dunno. Some describe Keto as a 'forever change and whilst there will inevitably be  lapses I think that's where I'll be. I find it's exactly like being an alcoholic/drug addict;  sugar - which for me includes all carb based foods - is a drug that just screws me up, and it's simpler just to swear off the stuff completely. My only regret is that I didn't find out about the Keto diet 30 years ago.

Im with you ....im not talking about eating what I want again, because quite quickly what I would want would be crisps, bread, lager, rice and haribo...I much prefer things now, not craving any of things and really enjoying clean food.   I do think if I enter into time trialing next year which is my intention, that I will need to think about some complex carb intake in cycles.   Im not convinced being fully Keto allows for explosive efforts or short, hard powerful intervals.   
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on October 05, 2016, 02:20:33 pm
The more I read about LCHF diets, the more I think I would like to give it a go. But can anyone point me in the direction of the best resources to come up with meal ideas. Is there a book that could be recommended for this?

Checkout ruled.me website for some free ebooks on getting started, then 'caveman keto' website or lookup Keto on Pinterest for more recipes than you can shake a stick at.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: zigzag on October 08, 2016, 11:41:11 pm
<...>
Im not convinced being fully Keto allows for explosive efforts or short, hard powerful intervals.

have a cake steak and eat it too?

igmc
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: DrMekon on October 14, 2016, 02:07:51 pm
No keto, but did you see this in the news?

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2016.09.047

The hoo-ha is that high protein diets in the context of calorie restriction to not have the same benefits on insulin sensitivity. However, what it did indicate is that a 45c/25f/30p diet preserves fat free muscle mass in the context of weight loss compared to a 50c/30f/20p diet

"Both the WL and WL-HP groups lost 10% of their initial body weight [because they only took them off the diet once they had - can't see if the time it took is reported], but the contribution of fat free mass (FFM) to total weight loss was 45% less in the WLHP group than in the WL group"

BUT!!!

OMG all this noise from 27 participants? Jeeze, how few? Diet compliance measured with...MyFitnessPal? Lord alive - I cannot imagine getting the press they've gotten with such a weenie weak study.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: The French Tandem on October 14, 2016, 02:16:48 pm
Maybe what is good for making post-menopausal women lose weight, and what is good for making cyclists ride faster and further are two different things?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on January 05, 2017, 08:36:58 am
Well I decided to try the LCHF diet and started four days ago.

I am averaging 40-50 grams of carb daily for an 1850 calorie allowance (currently tracking in MyFitnessPal as I get the hang of it).

This morning's poop was much lighter in colour. Having had liver failure 2 years ago I am quite sensitive to poo colour. Now I assume this is a result of the change of diet as the liver thing was an acute illness which resolved after two weeks, and my poops were much lighter in colour then, but does anyone think I should increase my carbs and decrease the fat? Or is it likely to go away or be the new normal?

It's a weird feeling, not being hungry all the time!!!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 05, 2017, 09:51:36 am
I guess there will be fewer pictures of cake on the internet, for a while then?  :D

IANAD, so won't comment at all about your medical history, but clearly you'll fit right in to the keto kommunity, as ketoers are notoriously interested in their poo; you only need to count the poo threads on reddit/keto to see that.

In spoiler tags in deference to the squeamish:

(click to show/hide)

If you're concerned - check with your GP; though you might expect some push-back about the diet. I'm not sure about medical training over there, but UK/US medics receive bugger-all training on nutrition, so they tow the general line of received wisdom, which has probably been influenced by "Big Sugar".
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on January 05, 2017, 10:05:12 am
Visiting a doctor here is a bit of a procedure so I will practice the 'wait and see' approach. I just don't know if it would be advisable to increase my carbs and reduce the fat in the meantime.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on January 05, 2017, 06:00:25 pm
I would worry about poop colour with your history!

Since getting to see a doctor is such a kerfuffle for you, I suggest you should:
Observe the colour of your wee and skin
See a doctor if you feel  :sick: or ill in any other way

I don't know what the cause of your previous liver trouble and how that would relate to a LCHF diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 05, 2017, 06:26:18 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: tonyh on January 05, 2017, 06:40:49 pm
(The stuff squashed under the spoilers is just a little disappointing.)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on January 05, 2017, 06:42:26 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on January 05, 2017, 09:21:51 pm
The good news is, this evening's poop was normal colour.

My liver problem was directly after a super-nasty bout of the flu two years ago but resolved completely after a couple of weeks (phew!!). But naturally it makes me more aware of some potential indicators.

So far (day 4) I seem to be avoiding the carb flu. I am drinking loads of water and making sure I have extra salt. Fingers crossed!!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: JohnR on January 08, 2017, 02:42:50 pm
Now then peeps, I'm kinda wanting to try this out but have a few reservations.
I don't need to lose weight, but wondering if this will help me on long rides, here's my dilemma;

I carb load up before and try to during the ride, but fail miserably, you see I find it hard to eat when riding. More to the point, my body doesn't want feeding when riding and also my appetite is reduced after the ride until about the next day. So eventually I run out of energy at some point in the ride and my speed becomes sooo slooow with my legs feeling like I'm pulling a 2 ton elephant along with me.

I've read a few articles and all seem positive except for one which paints the picture as follows:
Eat carbs, blood sugar levels rise, insulin secreted to normalise this and fat stored while leptin inhibited? It goes on to say that when toomuch fat is stored, the fat cells produce more leptin to signal the brain to stop eating but somehow the message is lost in translation (leptin resistance) so brain falsely thinks we are starving so need to eat. However the article goes on to say that once body fat is normalised, less leptin is produced so brain thinks we need to eat etc but more importantly because leptin is reduced, energy levels will reduce also.

My question is once on this lifestyle change do people need to have carb loading days to satisfy the low leptin?

Do you think this will help me with my dilemma?
Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 08, 2017, 04:19:31 pm
Hi John

My experience is that carb loading is not necessary at all.

It takes time to convert from running on sugar to running on fat.  This can be between 3 and 15 days depending on the person and you are likely to be cranky, tired, headache, etc.

The problem is that once you are fat adapted, carb loading puts you back to a carb based metabolism and you then need to spend a few days adapting again.

Don't worry about the leptin, it will sort itself out and so will your body.  You just have to commit to no carbs for the cycling season.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 08, 2017, 04:23:11 pm
If you find eating difficult when cycling, then a low-carb approach could be ideal for you. One reason ultra-runners are really going for low-carb diets is it removes the need to force down carbs during an event, at the risk of a DNF due to gastric distress; something quite common in the ultra-distance world of running/cycling.

If you remove all easily assimilated sugars, starches and grains from your diet1, your insulin level will fall back to a steady level, which will make it easier for you to burn fat reserves. Combine this with some practice with fasted training, and you should find there's a disconnection between hunger and energy flow, which will mean you can continue to exercise, even if you're hungry.

The longer you maintain a low-carb diet, the better your body will become at burning fats, and at higher work-rates, which means you'll be able to climb hills or ride harder without dipping into carb reserves.

Leptin signalling is mostly messed up by a high intake of fructose (either from added HFCS, uncommon outside the USA, or from drinking a lot of fruit juice).

(x-post with Chris)

-----------
1 In practice, this means no sugar of any kind, no bread, rice, potato, pasta or anything else made of grains like oats, wheat, or rye, as well as beer. Carbs should only come from above-ground vegetables or some berries.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 08, 2017, 04:37:56 pm
Haad my annual daibetic consult just before christmas and the registrar was Swiss this time.  Funnily enough she'd been researching the effectiveness of low carb diets in T1 and so was very positive about what I was doing and was quite interested in how I can manage the endurance exercise with it (typically 20g carbs/hr extra for me if I'm going >2hrs).  Unfortunately there are no real studies on T1D athletes in low carb, I did offer myself up.

One thing she did tell me though was that it's possible to "fat load" and that the fat stored in muscles is not affected by circulating insulin levels whilst utilising stored sub-cut etc fat is supressed.  She also said tht the muscle stored fat is much more easily accessible for muscle fuelling.

I'm inferring from that that a high fat snack or meal immediately after a workout might help you to be more efficient in fat burning earlier i the next workout before your circulating insulin falls and you can then access stored reserves. Us pancreatically challenged folks still need to remember to turn the pump down well ahead of time.

I'm interested in those that are saying "no carbs during exercise" as well, as that's not Phinney and Volek's stance, they suggest that during exercise a happy medium of carbs is OK, with the aim of being <50g/day normally/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 08, 2017, 05:39:25 pm
i tried doing carbs during a long ride except in very small amounts.  I know the effect that carbs have on me on non exercise days - SLEEP, so have tended to avoid them in the last few long rides.

I think Chris S is far more relaxed during a ride and will partake of Cake and other nutrients.

each to their own.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 08, 2017, 05:56:24 pm
I think Chris S is far more relaxed during a ride and will partake of Cake and other nutrients.

Bah! Rumbled!!

Guilty as charged, m'lud  ;D.

I tend to be keto-righteous on a day to day basis, but do relax when on a ride and will seek out whatever I fancy. That said, I'll quite often do large chunks of rides on nothing at all; the last two 200s I rode, I had nothing for the first 100/130km.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 08, 2017, 06:12:15 pm
I think I probably COULD except for the defective pancreas, oddly enough it's the inability to regulate my insulin automatically that's the buggeration factor with about a four hour lag time between a change on the pump and it taking effect. I think I've got to a happy mediumthese days at 20% of normal and accepting that I need SOME carbs to maintain correct levels.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: JohnR on January 08, 2017, 07:18:49 pm
Wow, thanks for the replies, much appreciated.
The last 200km audax I did was the Venetian nights. I did my usual and forced myself to fuel on carbs all round which seemed to work but the last 30 km or so over axe edge had me walking most of the way in the darkness as my legs had gone. Anyway, I finished with about half an hour to spare but didn't want any food on offer, but forced a bowl of apple pie and custard down to replace some of my missing glycogen in the muscles and made my way home. I'd got onto the motorway when my stomach decided it had enough sugar and I ended up with a lap full, not to mention the dashboard. You can imagine the conversation when I got home.

I'm considering entering LEL, it may be my only chance at my age and think I may be better off if I'm adapted to burn fat.
Does the panel think I should reduce my high intensity training days in the gym while I go through cold turkey?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 09, 2017, 06:47:50 pm
I am not a gym person and my idea of high intensity is probably very different to yours.  However i would suggest not changing anything in terms of training but just push through accepting that you may feel pretty rubbish on some days.

make sure that you take a lot more salt as insulin promotes salt retention by the kidneys and low insulin leads to increased salt loss and headaches for many people.

i used to eat a Knorr chicken stock sachet per day to add extra salt.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on January 09, 2017, 06:54:59 pm
Feeling rubbish on some days - how do you tell that apart from training?

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 09, 2017, 07:12:54 pm
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read

"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full (http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on January 10, 2017, 02:45:59 pm
I'm considering entering LEL, it may be my only chance at my age and think I may be better off if I'm adapted to burn fat.
Does the panel think I should reduce my high intensity training days in the gym while I go through cold turkey?

If you are trying to fat adapt I'd be inclined to take a two pronged approach; namely diet changes and fasted training/sedentary fasts.

On diet I haven't found it necessary to go keto, lchf approach is fine. If I cut fruit from my diet and the odd startchy veg I'd probably qualify as keto, but I eat 5/6 pieces of fruit a day typically later in day.

Just cut junk carbs from diet; crappy breads(which is about 99% of what is sold), granolas etc etc, any refined carbs really. Any carbs high in fibre and with some protein I'd be inclined to keep in, wild rice, millet etc

On lifestyle, skip breakfast 1/2 days a week and see how you adapt. Just have an extra large lunch or whatever.

Once you are comfortable with skipping breakfast, try an odd 24 hr fast; for me now when travelling it's trivial. Water and black coffee and no hunger.

Then try some short fasted rides to begin; and hour or two. See how you go. Bring a little food if you feel miserable. I've done up to 180km with 1800m completely fasted and on longer 200km-500km rides will always start fasted and not eat anything up to 130-150km. It took me about 18months to skip breakfast on longer rides, the biggest adaptation is the mental challenge of cutting something out rather than a physiological one,

I think you can make big improvements in 6 months but I personally noted changes for 2 years plus.

On very long rides I will have some "junk" carbs like chocolate milk,chocolate but primarily real food. For example my hardest one day ride last year was 440km with 5000m climbing. Food for day was
180km: 250ml chocolate milk and two apples, small snickers bar.
250km: soup and meat/cheese sandwich
340km: apple, banana, can of coke. and bought 500ml energy drink for last 100km.
Other than that just water for day.

Away from calories,arguments over insulin etc etc, on long distance the primary advantages are not needing to stop as much for food or to use toilet. Gastric issues are never an issue. On that 440km ride I was stopped for almost exactly an hour, that was for all water refills, navigation, food and toilet stops.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: JohnR on January 11, 2017, 11:07:09 am
That's an interesting post Chinaski, thanks.

I was wondering if a possible half-way house would work. I've not yet bit the bullet but have gone this week (so far) simply reducing my carb intake and increasing my fat intake with following results:

Fat to carbs seems to be about evens with protein making up quite a bit of my calories. anyhow Monday was feeling a little tired mid afternoon. Tuesday is one of my HIT days in the gym and I have to say I felt somewhat lacking in energy like never before. I couldn't do the session as I was hoping, instead I managed 5 x 3.75 Min @ about 196W with my heart up @165-175. Before Christmas this level was reasonably easy to complete 3 x 10Mins with stable hr 165.

Last year I did a couple of fasted rides early morning, I managed 2.5 Hrs before my legs started feeling they needed some fuel and I stopped and ate some food.
I'm going to try and reduce my carb intake and increase my fat intake further going forwards and see if this helps. By the way my poop was a definite lighter shade of sand this morning, like Aunti Helen reported. Don't know if this means my body is already accepting some changes.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on January 11, 2017, 11:19:49 am
That's an interesting post Chinaski, thanks.

I was wondering if a possible half-way house would work. I've not yet bit the bullet but have gone this week (so far) simply reducing my carb intake and increasing my fat intake with following results:

Fat to carbs seems to be about evens with protein making up quite a bit of my calories. anyhow Monday was feeling a little tired mid afternoon. Tuesday is one of my HIT days in the gym and I have to say I felt somewhat lacking in energy like never before. I couldn't do the session as I was hoping, instead I managed 5 x 3.75 Min @ about 196W with my heart up @165-175. Before Christmas this level was reasonably easy to complete 3 x 10Mins with stable hr 165.

Last year I did a couple of fasted rides early morning, I managed 2.5 Hrs before my legs started feeling they needed some fuel and I stopped and ate some food.
I'm going to try and reduce my carb intake and increase my fat intake further going forwards and see if this helps. By the way my poop was a definite lighter shade of sand this morning, like Aunti Helen reported. Don't know if this means my body is already accepting some changes.

I'd expect you to feel some fatigue/lower energy while you adapt for a week or two.

Mixing endurance rides of significant length (100km plus) did cause an issue or two for me when doing a lot of strength work/conditioning. Say when I deadlifted, squatted on Thursday evening I'd start feeling effect on bike after 100km on Sunday.

I'd be inclined to have something carby after your HIIT session, you don't need to go mad but it certainly proved successful for me and there is some science behind it.

Even now on fasted rides I'll get a call to eat really early sometimes; drink of water and it's gone. I generally don't bring money or any food on rides up to 130km in length. I'll generally finish and not feel hungry for quite a while after.

Best of luck with LEL

As an aside on fat I'd be inclined to eat fats in the following order; mono, saturated, polyunsaturated (treat them like vitamins, a little is all you need). Only apply heat to stable saturated fats like coconut or animal fats like lard.

Long but brilliant discussion here
http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/precious-yet-perilous/

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on January 11, 2017, 12:23:18 pm
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read

"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full (http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full)

As soon as I saw Noakes name at the top I stopped reading.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on January 13, 2017, 12:05:03 pm
All very interesting. Is the "fat adaptation" thing thought to be an on/off phenomenon, or continuous? Tim Noakes, for instance, writes about 25-30g carbs/day being necessary to ensure fat burning and ketogenesis, but without necessarily varying that figure according to body mass (whether ideal or actual).

In other words, can one be "fat adapted" at 29g carbs/day and "carb adapted" at (say) 50g/day? Surely it's continuous? I know of few physiological processes that really are on/off (mast cell degranulation being the only one I can think of off-hand).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on January 13, 2017, 12:42:17 pm
All very interesting. Is the "fat adaptation" thing thought to be an on/off phenomenon, or continuous? Tim Noakes, for instance, writes about 25-30g carbs/day being necessary to ensure fat burning and ketogenesis, but without necessarily varying that figure according to body mass (whether ideal or actual).

In other words, can one be "fat adapted" at 29g carbs/day and "carb adapted" at (say) 50g/day? Surely it's continuous? I know of few physiological processes that really are on/off (mast cell degranulation being the only one I can think of off-hand).

You body needs ATP to be made in order to provide energy to our cells. It can make ATP from fat, glucose/glycogen, protein, lactate etc.

Your blood carries all those energy sources around, the glucose/glycogen as is and the fat/protein aboard lipoproteins.

Fat adaptation is just swinging the balance is favour of fat; it doesn't stop your body using carbs as energy, just limits it. Diet and fasted training are the two primary methods of forcing the adaptation. A vegan on a really low fat diet will still be able to burn fat just as an eskimo still has the ability to use glucose. It isn't an either/or situation rather a changing of the proportion; for audax cycling shifting the balance to provide the vast majority of energy with fat is the goal of many here.

Australian Olympic coach Dr Louise Bourke has a good podcast on scienceofultra.com.

My own view is that a ketogenic diet is too impractical in the modern world to comply with, along with the down regulation in glucose use and subsequent power loss to make it ideal. Also in the real world of a multi day audax, are you really going to ask a volunteer at 4am in a shelter that the balance of your meal isn't quite right for your diet....

Also many don't do it properly and are often just on a low fat diet anyhow.

The last thing most people should be doing is limiting plants in their diet; a half arsed attempt at a ketogenic diet can do that.

Good podcast here by a non zealot, but with an eye on performance and metabolic flexibility. (skip the first 5 mins where they tell each other how great they are..)


http://sigmanutrition.com/episode86/


This is taken from optimumnutrition4sport.com and is just a basic description of how body makes ATP

Energy Systems

Now for the science bit. I don’t want to go into too much detail, but understanding how your body functions is the key to understanding how food works. So very briefly, here are the different ways your body can produce ATP (i.e. energy)

PhosphoCreatine System: ADP +Cr P –> ATP

This system is used to produce the first 10-15secs of energy that we need for sprints. Obviously, this is not a system that ultra endurance athletes use very often. It doesn’t require glucose or oxygen and it is fuelled through the use of creatine, a natural molecule produced in the body consisting of 3 amino acids.

Anaerobic System (Glycolysis): Glucose –> Pyruvate + ATP + H+

This is a system more familiar to people which burns glucose quickly and coverts it to lactic acid. The result is quick energy, the type needed for high intensity exercise like interval training or hill climbs. This process doesn’t require any oxygen but the trade-off is a large production of hydrogen ions which decrease the pH resulting in muscle fatigue.

Cori-Cycle (The Lactic Acid Cycle): Lactate + ATP –> Glucose

Despite what people think, lactate is not the bad guy. The acid builds up and muscle fatigue/pain is mainly caused by an increase in hydrogen ions (which lowers the pH). The lactate produced in the muscle can be recycled in the liver and converted back to glucose. This glucose can then be shuttled to the muscle and used again to produce energy.

Aerobic System (The Krebs Cycle/Citric Acid Cycle): Glucose + O2 –> CO2 + H2O + ATP

This is the main system that our cells use to produce energy. It’s a series of enzyme controlled chemical reactions that use oxygen to breakdown glucose. The first few steps of this reaction involve converting glucose into a smaller carbon chain intermediate. What’s important to note here is that both fats and proteins can be broken down and converted into this exact same intermediate. In other words, as well as pure glucose, our cells can use fats and proteins to fuel the aerobic system. This is a complicated pathway but here is a very simple diagram to illustrate what I mean



Lipolysis/Beta-Oxidation

Lipolysis is the conversion of triglycerides into glycerol and free fatty acids. These free fatty acids can then be transferred to muscle where they are further broken down through beta-oxidation to prepare them for the Krebs Cycle. The advantage of using fatty acids is 1. The amount we can store is far greater than carbs and 2. They provide roughly twice the amount of energy per gram. So we have lots more of this type of fuel and it produces more energy. The only disadvantage is that because they are much bigger molecules than glucose, they require more oxygen for their combustion. Therefore, fatty acids from the plasma and adipose tissue are oxidised at a higher rate when the intensity is low (i.e. when you can take in more oxygen, i.e. breath more)

ITMG (Intramuscular Triglycerides) Fat Oxidation

So when fats are used to produce energy, they can come from three different locations. 1. Adipose Tissue, where the majority of itis stored 2. Muscle and 3. Blood Plasma. The fat stored in muscle is called Intramuscular Triglycerides. It is this which gives meat its marbled appearance. As ITMG’s are already present in the muscle, transport and delivery is not an issue. Therefore, the ability to use them is increased especially as exercise intensity increases.

Glycolytic Proteins/Protein Oxidation

Amino acids (such as Leucine, Isoleuncine and Valine) can also be converted into Acetly-CoA (the intermediate that both glucose and fatty acids are converted to) and then used in the Krebs Cycle. It is estimated that 5-10% of energy can come from the oxidation of proteins. However, this is not ideal if amino acids are not plentiful as it means that the source of amino acids will be from muscle tissue. This can be reduced by supplying amino acids and increasing the rate of fat oxidation to spare the use of protein.

Glucose Alanine Cycle

Just like the Cori Cycle, where a waste product is converted back into glucose, the same can be done with amino acids. The amino acids Alanine and Glutamine can be used to convert Pyruvate back into Glucose.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on January 13, 2017, 01:01:52 pm
Glycogen is NOT carried in the blood; glucose is.
It is a storage product which exists in muscles and the liver. It is broken down to glucose.
Its branched structure makes it able to release glucose PDQ if needed.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on January 13, 2017, 01:04:16 pm
Thanks Chinaski,

I understand the base science to some degree (at least I think I do). My question was badly phrased - I was asking whether the switch between "traditional" and LCHF diets had been studied in terms of how respiratory quotient changes over a range of carbohydrate intake. Intuitively, would be a relatively easy study to do.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on January 13, 2017, 01:17:03 pm
Thanks Chinaski,

I understand the base science to some degree (at least I think I do). My question was badly phrased - I was asking whether the switch between "traditional" and LCHF diets had been studied in terms of how respiratory quotient changes over a range of carbohydrate intake. Intuitively, would be a relatively easy study to do.

I don't know about studies but I know guys who do fasted rides well north of 100km and don't restrict carbs at all; diet is only one variable in terms of fat adaptation.

Their diet would be low in junk carbs and clean in general but not by any means low carb.

If you get 100 subjects and limit % of carbs in diet I'd expect their bodies would adapt and burn more fat with the lower carb % but if one has time low carb or very low carb isn't essential.

If you limit all foods and fast that's what your body will do anyway and once glucose/glycogen runs out it'll fire up ketosis irrespective of diet
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 13, 2017, 02:10:08 pm
There are more and more N=1 experimenters out there these days; men and women experimenting with LCHF and ultra running/triathlon. Many don't focus on being keto - just on limiting unnecessary carbs.

Low carb is glycogen sparing; you should find your metabolism gets shifted more towards fat burning, and away from glycogen dependency, as adaptation continues. This can take a long time - forget any "research" done over three weeks - it can take years.

Low carb for me means eating as I did before; simply without the insulin provoking elements. I have roast lunch on a Sunday, just no tatties or stuffing. I don't eat bread, or anything with sugar. I make exceptions to this when I feel like it - so if I'm on a long ride and fancy crumble & custard, I don't sweat it (although I'll probably have indigestion - but that's another story).

I know LCHF is working because:

I naturally tend toward one or two meals a day, rather than three.
Quite often, I no longer feel "compelled" to the kitchen. Eating is something I do when I have time, and I'm hungry enough.
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal.

Exercise is fine in this state. Sure, I'd probably suck as an Olympic weight-lifter, or other elite athlete who are totally reliant on anaerobic work - but y'know what, I can deal with that :).

I'm beginning to wonder if the fasted state is in fact our "default" state, from an evolutionary point of view, and being in a fed state is an interruption to that. There are some fairly fundamental systems in our bodies that only come out to play when we're fasted - cellular autophagy, white blood cell recycling and others associated with auto-immunity. We're just not metabolically set up very well for being continuously fed - even before you add in The Demon Sugar.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on January 13, 2017, 03:59:26 pm
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal.

Do you notice any loss of muscle mass on 3/4 fasts?

I've no problem doing 24hr fasts, but anything longer and I'm usually thinking about all that heavy lifting for 6 months of the year going to waste ::-)

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 13, 2017, 04:15:43 pm
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal.

Do you notice any loss of muscle mass on 3/4 fasts?

I've no problem doing 24hr fasts, but anything longer and I'm usually thinking about all that heavy lifting for 6 months of the year going to waste ::-)
I haven't done enough longer fasts to have a view on that one yet. From what I've read, loss of lean mass is not huge, and only lasts until ketosis kicks in - so if you're already on a LCHF diet, that's probably quite promptly after starting the fast.

Fasting causes a spike in HGH (amongst others), in readiness for the refeed, so whilst there might be some loss of lean mass, you're well set up to replace it if you do some resistance work in the days following the fast.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 13, 2017, 06:14:19 pm
That was an excellent description by china ski and he is right that all exist to varying extents at all times in humans.  However shifting the primary source of energy takes time and significant up and down regulation in the cells which probably takes weeks or months to be sustainable.

I have wondered for a while about the primary purpose of insulin.  if you took our nomadic predecessors then insulin was nothing to do with glucose regulation.  There was so little glucose around for most of the year that you did not need to reduce your blood glucose.  What you did need was a hormone that in summer/early autumn drove every bit of glucose into fat storage.  At that time of year there would be a massive spike in available carbohydrate with berries, seeds, etc as well as honey.  You would not want to waste that moving around but store it as fat for the winter hibernation.

I wonder if insulin had been identified in bears would it be seen in a totally different light?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on January 13, 2017, 07:28:08 pm
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal

Funny enough,  that's very similar to the phrases I used to describe how I felt when I once went three days without sleep whilst chasing a stupid project deadline... others included, 'totally out of it' and 'never again'...

Ive been backsliding all over the place on the keto front lately... a combination of stress, boredom (lack of variety in my diet) and winter's demands.

I'm not too convinced about the fasted riding thing, especially riding fixed which demands a certain amount of oomph and squandering of energy, andworry about burning muscle which I find hard enough to come by as it is. It seems to me pointless to fast during the ride only to eat more after. Better to be eating consistently....  replenishment rather than fuel... Also I do like to have some food inside me, especially when its cold; it helps keep me warm.  I never skip breakfast, it may be a daily ritual thing but I feel it helps set me up for the day. Having said this my calorific intake especially during rides is nowhere close to what it was when I was burning carbs, and what I call the day 2 syndrome, a.k.a., starvarama - feedme - munchies - has been cutting in with a vengence lately, probably because of the cold.*

*This post contains only trace elements of science
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on January 13, 2017, 09:28:39 pm
Twelve days into my LCHF diet and I'm finding it easier than I thought.

What I can't get my head around is not being hungry. Well, sometimes I'm a little bit hungry, but not that empty gnawing hunger I used to have on waking up (fixed with two biscuits and a cuppa tea), or that would have at about 11am at work, or mid-afternoon, or even after a fairly large meal.

Today really brought this home to me. I had my breakfast of scrambled eggs (3 eggs) with a bit of cream, some linseed and some ham. This was at 7am as normal. Then I went to work.

At about midday I had 7-8 nuts from a tin I keep in my desk drawer.

I finished work at 13:00 and went straight from there to the large supermarket in the next town as I had some specific things to get that are only really available there (German supermarkets aren't as good as UK/NL ones). I walked around the supermarket, finding the things I needed, checking out the vegetables etc. It was now about 14:30 and I had had no lunch, nothing except a few nuts since 7am, but I didn't feel hungry and I wasn't buying half the supermarket due to this hunger.

I got home at 15:15 and thought I probably ought to have some lunch although I wasn't hungry, so I had a bit of cucumber, cheese and a feta dip. And that was it. And I wasn't hungry and went out for a cycle ride for an hour.

This lack of hunger is so completely against my normal nature it is bizarre. I tended to always be very specific about making sure I had my meals on time (lunch at 13:00, dinner at 19:30) and I was always hungry before them. But now I just don't feel the need to eat, not even breakfast.

So far so good, although it takes some time to get used to the colour change in the output (I had some special Dutch black cabbage which made surprising colour changes in the toilet bowl, now back to normal).

I have committed to doing this properly for 3 months and then after that to see if I perhaps increase the carbs slightly so I can perhaps have a bit of fruit here and there, but we shall see. I find the dessert options rather limited, although I made some mascarpone/whipping cream mousse that was very tasty with strawberries and blueberries. But that and yoghurt with strawberries seem to be my only dessert options at the moment - I need to investigate further.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on January 13, 2017, 10:04:50 pm
I eat greek yoghurt with nut (usually almond, sometimes cashew) butter for pudding.

And then there's the cheesecake.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on January 13, 2017, 10:22:33 pm
Can you share your cheesecake recipe?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 13, 2017, 11:31:34 pm
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read

"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full (http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full)

As soon as I saw Noakes name at the top I stopped reading.

No surprise there.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on January 14, 2017, 12:21:18 am
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read

"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full (http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full)

As soon as I saw Noakes name at the top I stopped reading.

No surprise there.

Not exactly objective, and the man is not a picture of good health imo, unlike Barnard, Greger et al.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on January 14, 2017, 08:21:21 am
You don't need to be in good health to do good science.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: JohnR on January 14, 2017, 09:34:21 am
Talking of dessert, I had Greek yogurt last week and noticed it had 9.7g fat and 5g of carbs in it, I also had a few blueberries to help the flavour.

I am just reducing my crap carbs and increasing my fat intake at present and am noticing that when I increase fat the protein also increases. I thought we were supposed to be keeping protein low also, or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 14, 2017, 10:43:30 am
I am just reducing my crap carbs and increasing my fat intake at present and am noticing that when I increase fat the protein also increases. I thought we were supposed to be keeping protein low also, or am I missing something?

Yes, and that is one of the hardest things to get right. I try and keep my protein under 80g a day, or 80-100g if I'm particularly active, refeeding after a fast, or I'm doing resistance training.

The energy balance needs to be made up with fat, so that means:

Eating fatty meat, or offal (yuk!).
Never ever ever buy "low fat" stuff - always go full fat.
Smother your veggies in butter.
Eat fatty fish.
Smother your salad in Olive Oil dressing.

Fat is energy dense - so you don't need vast amounts make up the calories - and you'll feel satiated, and the food tastes richer, and yummier.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on January 14, 2017, 12:11:32 pm
I initially found my protein was a bit high too so I have reduced my meat intake a bit and I go for more veg and more butter/oil. I am managing roughly 70% fat, 20% protein and 10% carbs as a target.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on January 15, 2017, 01:55:19 am
You don't need to be in good health to do good science.

You do when you are advocating eating a particular type of diet. Turns out now that 'bad' LDL is not 'bad' at all. There is bad bad and good bad. Honestly what a load of shite. Fact is feed any herbivore dietary cholesterol and they will develop heart disease. This whole bad bad, good bad LDL is smoke and mirrors.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on January 15, 2017, 08:44:18 am
You don't need to be in good health to do good science.

You do when you are advocating eating a particular type of diet.
Nonsense!

What if your scientist has specific conditions that stop him/her eating that diet, or made him ill before he started his research? Are you going to ignore him, and listen to some genetically lucky elite athlete who can't spell, let alone understand biochemistry?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on January 15, 2017, 11:58:51 am
You don't need to be in good health to do good science.

You do when you are advocating eating a particular type of diet.
Nonsense!

What if your scientist has specific conditions that stop him/her eating that diet, or made him ill before he started his research? Are you going to ignore him, and listen to some genetically lucky elite athlete who can't spell, let alone understand biochemistry?

What are you going on about? <shakes head>
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: closetleftie on January 15, 2017, 01:32:12 pm
The issue about Noakes being in "good health" (or not) is beside the point, of course, as the question isn't whether a given diet is good for him, rather whether it is a good diet per se. However, he has completed a number of ultramarathons including the Comrades , which is around 60 miles with around 2500m of ascent. It would be difficult to judge his health or otherwise from pictures alone.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: DrMekon on January 15, 2017, 03:16:44 pm

Fat is energy dense - so you don't need vast amounts make up the calories - and you'll feel satiated, and the food tastes richer, and yummier.

I went through some of John Blundell's work (he came up with the satiety cascade, and his office was diagonal from mine - James Stubbs, ex of slimming world has it now) to see what it said about fat and satiety, because I don't find fat especially satiety inducing, esp compared to protein and fibre, and targeting bulky low density foods and enouraging sensory specific satiety with restricted choice.

"The human appetite system contains central and peripheral mechanisms that interact with environmental features, especially with the physical and nutrient composition of the food supply. Foods varying in nutrient composition exert different physiologic effects, some of which function as satiety signals. High-fat diets (low food quotient) lead to high levels of energy intake. This effect is termed passive overconsumption and overcomes fat-induced physiological satiety signals. High-fat foods exert a weak effect on satiation (intra-meal satiety), and fat has a weaker effect, joule for joule, on postingestive satiety than do other macronutrients. The frequency of obesity is greater among high-fat than low-fat consumers. However, the development of obesity on a high-fat diet is not a biological inevitability. The investigation of people who resist the weight-inducing properties of high-fat diets is a key research strategy. Understanding the appetite control system suggests behavioral, nutritional, and pharmacologic strategies for modifying dietary fat intake."

from http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.nu.16.070196.001441?journalCode=nutr (shout if you want the pdf)

I know a couple of people from his research group looking at keto diets. For those who are interested in making their food more satiating, van Kleef's review was a good intro for me.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662086/

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: The French Tandem on January 30, 2017, 08:05:13 pm
Not strictly following a keto diet, but we tried to reduce refined sugar as much as possible. There is one very annoying downside for me: everything now seems to have a sugary taste, from beer, to tomato juice. I never realized before that all beers have a sweet taste! Am I the only one to be annoyed by this effect?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 30, 2017, 08:22:17 pm
Not strictly following a keto diet, but we tried to reduce refined sugar as much as possible. There is one very annoying downside for me: everything now seems to have a sugary taste, from beer, to tomato juice. I never realized before that all beers have a sweet taste! Am I the only one to be annoyed by this effect?

Actually, quite the contrary - it means that I can eat fruit like berries, lemons and other citrus, with little or no sweetener. Veggies that previously tasted bland, now have a sweetness to them - carrots for instance. As for sweet potato, it's almost too sweet.

I had half a tin of soup recently (Heinz chicken noodle) and couldn't finish it because it was SO sweet - like eating dessert. It had added sugar, but really not that much.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: The French Tandem on January 30, 2017, 09:03:22 pm
I had half a tin of soup recently (Heinz chicken noodle) and couldn't finish it because it was SO sweet

That's exactly my opinion too! Thanks Chris, I was worried that I could suffer from a weird disorder!

Alain
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on February 10, 2017, 08:10:08 pm
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode164/

Interesting research
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: NeilH on February 20, 2017, 12:29:01 pm
Can one derive useful benefits from being "a little bit LCHF"? Or is that like being a "a little bit pregnant?".

I'm wondering to what extent moderately reducing carb intake (say, for example, using LCHF recipes for some but not all meals) might help with weight loss and endurance cycling?

Or does one need to stay off the starchy carbs all the time, and stick with the ketogenic state 24/7 to reap the claimed benefits?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on February 20, 2017, 01:05:50 pm
"a little bit LCHF"

I don't have any evidence, but given that our metabolisms work across a spectrum of different nutrients ( and % fat/carb contents, etc), it seems very likely that some adaptation will occur with any change.

My personal belief is that you can get useful tangible benefits, but as I said, no hard evidence here (apart from some feeble anecdata) ...

EDIT: some soft evidence? Pretty sure that lots of marathon runners have been using "train low, race high" approaches with success. More of a performance approach than weight-loss probably!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on February 20, 2017, 03:43:39 pm
The danger is that rather than being a little bit LCHF you end up HCHF and everyone agrees that's a Bad Thing.

That said, at home, it's easy easy easy to do without all those omnipresent carbohydrates, you simply don't invite them in. Out there in the big wide world it's more difficult. When I start riding again I can't imagine I'll be able to stay righteous in the face of a choice between Costa and KFC.

The big benefit (for me) is appetite management and I don't think you'd get that without diving fully in.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on February 20, 2017, 03:49:19 pm
The danger is that rather than being a little bit LCHF you end up HCHF and everyone agrees that's a Bad Thing.



At this point you are likely to prove the calorie hypothesis of weight gain;)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on February 20, 2017, 04:33:13 pm
I'm mulling this over a bit too.

I'm 7 weeks into LCHF and have found the last two weeks harder, plus my weight has crept slightly upward over that time (statistical noise I think as I am doing everything the same). I have started to think fondly of a few items with carbs such as apples which I would like to eat.

I said I would do this until the end of March and am wondering if afterwards I could be LCHF at home but allow myself occasional cake when riding and also if going out for a meal, a bit more of a choice of food. Plus my GerMan makes a mean pasta dish and I would like to occasionally be able to try it.

I don't think I could stick with this current regime for life, I find it too restrictive food-wise. It has helped keep hunger at bay, but there is less satisfaction in food choices and I think I would prefer to be a bit lardier and be able to eat ice cream and chocolate. But I will see how I feel after the end of next month.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on February 21, 2017, 12:14:57 pm
I'm mulling this over a bit too.

I'm 7 weeks into LCHF and have found the last two weeks harder, plus my weight has crept slightly upward over that time (statistical noise I think as I am doing everything the same). I have started to think fondly of a few items with carbs such as apples which I would like to eat

Irrespective of diet/lifestyle choice to drop weight, you are now where most people who struggle with weight normally get to.

If you have dropped fat, the body's circuitry which monitors body fat has taken notice.

It is primarily regulated by the hypothalamus and leptin while ghrelin, insulin etc also play a role. If you continue to drop fat I'd expect lower energy levels, while being very motivated by food especially something which ticks all food reward boxes salt/sugar/fat/texture lie ice cream/chocolate. You might be best to try and maintain for a while and see if your body can get used to a "new lower set point" of body fat before restricting excess again.

 

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on February 21, 2017, 12:51:04 pm
I think I agree with Chinaski here. Losing weight in a series of smaller steps and allowing some stability at each pause may ultimately be easier and more permanent. There does seem to be evidence emerging no that suggests your body will always try to go back up I'm afraid.

I am increasingly focused on diet for health, of which weight only forms one part - albeit quite a significant one of course

Mike

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on February 21, 2017, 01:23:13 pm
Thank you for the comments.

Interestingly I am almost at my 'natural' weight of 93kg. This is my usual summer weight which I find myself at when riding a lot in the summer and being more outdoorsy. Of course it is a very high weight for a 176cm woman but I have always been overweight. If I forget about food and just enjoy the summer I tend to end up at this weight, so I do wonder if this is somehow my default weight (I've hovered around here for the last 20 years). I would like to get my weight lower as that would make life easier but I am basically pleased to have dropped the extra 8kg that I had put on over winter. I will see where things go - I'm on holiday next week in Tenerife so I am guessing the nice food will be rather a draw, although salads will be more appealing when it's 23 degrees outside...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on February 21, 2017, 01:40:10 pm
Thank you for the comments.

Interestingly I am almost at my 'natural' weight of 93kg. This is my usual summer weight which I find myself at when riding a lot in the summer and being more outdoorsy. Of course it is a very high weight for a 176cm woman but I have always been overweight. If I forget about food and just enjoy the summer I tend to end up at this weight, so I do wonder if this is somehow my default weight (I've hovered around here for the last 20 years). I would like to get my weight lower as that would make life easier but I am basically pleased to have dropped the extra 8kg that I had put on over winter. I will see where things go - I'm on holiday next week in Tenerife so I am guessing the nice food will be rather a draw, although salads will be more appealing when it's 23 degrees outside...

This is an OK summary
https://authoritynutrition.com/leptin-101/

It's pretty simplified and also doesn't refer to hedonic eating; the eating that allows us to find room for desert (s) no matter how big the meal.

There is other research out there ( between St Vincents hospital in Dublin and Harvard  I think) which is looking at damage to immune system from prolonged obesity.

I'm not sure how reversible any of these dysfunctions are; there is probably a ceiling there for most in the long term.



Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on February 22, 2017, 09:06:04 pm
This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e09wQl1kkCE&feature=youtu.be) is interesting.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on February 23, 2017, 09:39:16 am
This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e09wQl1kkCE&feature=youtu.be) is interesting.

Yes, and he is the ex president of the world heart federation. The organsations website hasn't updated its guidance yet though.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on February 23, 2017, 09:51:45 am
The organsations website hasn't updated its guidance yet though.

Not surprising. Big Food has massively powerful lobbying power, as has Big Pharma; if I were just a bit more paranoid, I'd be convinced they work together to get us sick, then keep us that way.

I recently saw some posts of pictures of meals given to diabetics in hospital - a complete disaster area of carbs  :facepalm:.  The best one was posted by Andreas Eendfeldt, showing a mid-morning snack break at a Diabetes Convention for Drs; a table groaning under the weight of pastries, doughnuts, and cakes. Honestly, you couldn't make this shit up.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on February 27, 2017, 09:33:31 am
I'm currently on holiday with my Mum in Tenerife and trying to stay relaxed low carb whilst I am here. Clearly with restaurant food it's harder, plus my Mum fusses about it and i don't want to stress her, so I am trying to make it less noticeable. I have eaten some slices of melon the last two evenings though - I do miss fruit and the strawberries here are ropey.

Today I noticed the latest delight - asymmetrical fat loss on my sagging belly. Left side hangs lower than right, and left hip is more fleshy than right. I don't think it's noticeable when I have clothes on but yet again is a reminder that ageing and overweight bodies continually delight with new issues. Maybe it will even out, maybe it will always be so. Oh well.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 27, 2017, 02:51:59 pm
Quote
a table groaning under the weight of pastries, doughnuts, and cakes.

It is always the same in medical events.  beige carbohydrate lunches and snacks.

I now simply take all the ham sandwiches, extract the ham and leave the bread on the side.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: rogerzilla on February 28, 2017, 09:15:45 pm
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test.  Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.

As an aside, did anyone else look at the groaning table at the beginning of "Dr" Gillian McKeith's "You Are What You Eat", and think, "Yum!"?  ;D

*I can lose weight by eating a bit less crap, e.g. substituting fruit for chocolate.  The energy in/energy out balance is muddled by metabolic rate.  Walking a substantial distance each day (3 miles or so) is a good way to keep stuff burning.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on February 28, 2017, 11:31:43 pm
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test.  Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.

A quote from Ancel Keys of all people
"There's no connection whatsoever with cholesterol in food and cholesterol in blood. We have known that all along"

 https://goo.gl/mmLYtz

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on March 01, 2017, 09:01:25 am
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test.  Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.

A quote from Ancel Keys of all people
"There's no connection whatsoever with cholesterol in food and cholesterol in blood. We have known that all along"

 https://goo.gl/mmLYtz
Except they haven't. It is supposition. Very poor 'science'.
That is a problem with medical science, they are dealing with incredibly complex organisms, no two of which are identical or respond in an identical way.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: rogerzilla on March 01, 2017, 09:32:10 am
A work colleague had very high cholesterol in his 20s (and an appalling family history of early death from CVD; they rarely made it to 60).  He managed to get his cholesterol down to normal by eating a very low-fat diet; no drugs.  Standard advice is to eat a much lower-fat diet (esp saturated fats) and see if that works, before considering statins.  Anyway, salads and Benecol margarine are cheaper than NHS prescriptions.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on March 01, 2017, 10:27:40 am
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test.  Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.

As an aside, did anyone else look at the groaning table at the beginning of "Dr" Gillian McKeith's "You Are What You Eat", and think, "Yum!"?  ;D

*I can lose weight by eating a bit less crap, e.g. substituting fruit for chocolate.  The energy in/energy out balance is muddled by metabolic rate.  Walking a substantial distance each day (3 miles or so) is a good way to keep stuff burning.


Substituting one sugar for another, and then trying to do increased endurance sport to burn them off may well keep the weight of....but it is also increasingly and undeniably resulting in some pretty serious cardiac conditions. 

For me that is my worry and the main reason I want to stay more towards fat burning to power my activities.   The weight loss, hunger control, increased energy and lack of gut problem's during endurance activities are just a massive bonus.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on March 01, 2017, 11:54:53 am
The problem with all such diets is that people cherry-pick information to suit their choices. Information is unavoidably incomplete, but the consensus amongst dietitians and nutrition scientists based all the available evidence is – as ever – to eat a balanced diet (and yes avoid lots of sugar and lots of fat, but no need to exclude), don't smoke, drink in moderation, do regular aerobic exercise, and avoid wrestling tigers. The final one is very important, since it can undo all the others.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Bledlow on March 01, 2017, 12:09:17 pm
^^^^ This.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on March 01, 2017, 12:27:49 pm
The problem with all such diets is that people cherry-pick information to suit their choices. Information is unavoidably incomplete, but the consensus amongst dietitians and nutrition scientists based all the available evidence is – as ever – to eat a balanced diet (and yes avoid lots of sugar and lots of fat, but no need to excude), don't smoke, drink in moderation, do regular aerobic exercise, and avoid wrestling tigers. The final one is very important, since it can undo all the others.

This is all completely obvious and valid but I think you miss the point when you use the word "exclude".  Keto and HFLC is not a zero carb/zero sugar diet.   Lets not pretend everyone is capable of eating a balanced diet.   I know I am not and looking at the majority of our population it seems I am not alone.

If I try to eat a traditional western diet and also train I end up putting on weight.  Why?  Because I bloody love sugar and carbs and the more I eat of them the more I want and crave.  In addition to that the more I train, the more sugar I burn and the more I want.

That is not healthy or sustainable and a high fat diet is without any doubt the best course of action for me and millions like me.   For endurance athletes there is an increasing amount of good science to show that a high carb diet, combined with certain genetic types is a very bad combination.   There are a lot of very fit people not making it past 70 in the world of endurance sports.

My diet is more balanced now than it has ever been before.   I still eat all the good stuff and consume sugar and carbs when I need them for recovery or fuel.   I just don't eat the garbage that I was told all my life was good for me.  I don't want to recommend this way of eating for any one else but for me it has been life changing.   I'm 4.5stone down and entered into a marathon in October.   It just seems a really sensible way of eating for endurance athletes to me and makes far more sense than all the traditional fueling wisdom I was taught.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on March 01, 2017, 12:44:55 pm
Everyone is capable of eating a balanced diet. They either don't to or they're bombarded with information about diet. Don't eat this, don't eat that, eat this, eat that. Etc. Etc. Clean eating. Fasting. Low Carb. Low Fat. Blah blah. No, I'm right, here's a bloke on YouTube or a single scientific paper that proves.

Look, I'm happy for anyone to eat whatever. But I'm against the weirding of what we eat. The subsumption of simple dietary advice into a morass of conflicting information and claims. There's huge industries and careers built around diet. The simple advice gets lost.

I think you'll find that more people over the age 70 aren't endurance athletes than are.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: zigzag on March 01, 2017, 12:53:32 pm
"balanced" diet is a very ambiguous term, in my mind the diet i eat is balanced, however another person may have a diet too that is balanced, however very different from mine. sweet carbs are very different too - e.g. three nutella filled croissants with a large latte may give the same amount of calories as a bowl of porridge with berries and banana, but i know which one i'd rather have before a long ride. one of the resolutions i'm sticking to is to stop eating chocolate (or, if i eat it, also have the same or larger amount of berries, to offset the "damage"). it's the abundance and consumption of cheap and refined carbs that's creating a lot of cv and weight problems, nothing wrong with better quality carbs as a part of balanced diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on March 01, 2017, 12:58:46 pm
Everyone is capable of eating a balanced diet. They either don't to or they're bombarded with information about diet. Don't eat this, don't eat that, eat this, eat that. Etc. Etc. Clean eating. Fasting. Low Carb. Low Fat. Blah blah. No, I'm right, here's a bloke on YouTube or a single scientific paper that proves.

Look, I'm happy for anyone to eat whatever. But I'm against the weirding of what we eat. The subsumption of simple dietary advice into a morass of conflicting information and claims. There's huge industries and careers built around diet. The simple advice gets lost.

I think you'll find that more people over the age 70 aren't endurance athletes than are.

Is there a bigger industry built around the promotion of High Fat Diets or the promotion of High Carb/High Sugar diets?  I suggest looking at advertising budgets and money spent lobbying governments.   If we are talking about being bombarded with diet information I think we also need to factor in how much we are bombarded with junk food advertising.   They spend that money for a good reason - it makes us eat more crap.

So far it has cost me nothing to do this diet - there is no industry I have funded?   I heard about the premise from world class Ironmen on a podcast and then did further reading.   

I don't buy any weird diets foods - I buy normal, real food.   Im not sure what you think people on a high fat diet are eating exactly? 

If you want to see weird - look at the options available to you if you walk into the average petrol station or local convenience store in the UK when feeling hungry.   That is why people cant eat a balanced diet ...of course they can...but they don't.


Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on March 01, 2017, 01:50:06 pm
The problem with all such diets is that people cherry-pick information to suit their choices. Information is unavoidably incomplete, but the consensus amongst dietitians and nutrition scientists based all the available evidence is – as ever – to eat a balanced diet (and yes avoid lots of sugar and lots of fat, but no need to exclude), don't smoke, drink in moderation, do regular aerobic exercise, and avoid wrestling tigers. The final one is very important, since it can undo all the others.

Indeed!
My enforced sedentary lifestyle is keeping me away from accidents and joint replacements.

I am very healthy for someone so unhealthy....
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on March 01, 2017, 02:01:01 pm
My Ancient Parents eat what they fancy within the constraints of their digestive systems.
They are not endurance athletes.

Dad is constrained by lactose intolerance, low blood sodium and diverticular disease.

I don't think their parents, three of whom lived well into their 90s, ate or avoided anything very special. They kept Kosher, ate plenty though not excessively and enjoyed life.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on March 01, 2017, 02:41:11 pm
Well, of course there's a huge industry advertising and selling junk food, but I'm not sure the remedy is countering that with more diets, all of which have their own commercial angle, for palaeo through the gluten intolerance, they're all looking for shelf space. Or pushing a new book. Regardless of the merits (and I suspect there are few), the majority of people will have compliance issues with diets and ultimately it leads to the yo-yo of dissatisfaction. Or it gets so complicated they don't even bother. There's the Daily Mail drip of it's-good-for-you-oh-no-it's-not.

There's no significant campaign for eating your greens and going for a jog/swim etc. Complicated messages just confuse and the simple message gets lost.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on March 01, 2017, 03:50:19 pm
plenty of both anecdotal and statistical evidence that for a T1D, LCHF produces more stable blood sugar readings, better HbA1C profile and fewer diabetic complications.   That's enough for me.

Plus I still eat chocolate - it's just 85% cocoa or more.

Plus I still eat carbs when out exercising, but I'm eating to maintain my BG level, so no contribution to BG rise which is the key thing here. 

Plus  - no tigers in the Fens, unless you count Littleport
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on March 01, 2017, 05:20:28 pm
When I'm ketoing - the Veg:OtherStuff ratio tilts massively in favour of veg, by virtue of deleting one entire group from other side - ie, the starchy stuff. A Standard Western Diet is anything but balanced - it's hugely biased toward carbohydrates - the one macro we don't actually need very much of. So I think I eat a much more balanced diet when I'm ketoing.

However, I don't eat a varied diet - I have pretty much the same stuff week in week out; fboab has to eat other things - my diet is way too boring for her. I mostly get the right nutrients, and what I believe my macros need to be for me to achieve whatever it is I'm out to achieve at any given time (currently, fat loss and bonk-proof endurance cycling).

I've recently found further success in body-recomposition through not eating at all for two days every fortnight. A full 48 hour fast sure does give ketosis a hefty kick - and the consequential boost in mental focus is awesome. There are some (fairly essential) metabolic processes that just don't come out to play if we're in a permanently fed state. Nowt wrong with giving the internals a rest once in a while, and it entirely solves the whole "What shall I have to eat?" quandary.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on March 02, 2017, 01:26:55 pm
I don't think their parents, three of whom lived well into their 90s, ate or avoided anything very special. They kept Kosher, ate plenty though not excessively and enjoyed life.

Never eating anything special in 21st Century and early 20th Century are night and day. It's not a valid comparsion.

The food environment has changed unrecognizably
* less home cooking
* prepared ingredients even when people do cook
* way cheaper food
* an almost uncountable variation of foods high in sugar, fat and low in protein and fibre i.e. junk food.

If you want to bypass a mammal's ability to control bodyfat introduce them to junk food; it'll bypass satiety signaling even when full. Try getting lab rats fat on rat chow and then dry with milk chocolate, ice cream and fried chips, see which happens faster and which are healthy after.

The variety of foods will also encourage over eating.

An obese teenager today in all probability had a disadvantage to a 1900 teenager in that his metabolic dysfunction probably started in the womb if his mother had a crap diet. I remember interviewing midwifes about 12 years ago; when asked the hardest part of their job "the women are just getting bigger and bigger" was typical answer. They loved seeing the Polish girls walk in.

In truth most people who have struggled all their lives with diet always will. 10% loss of body mass appears to be the ceiling for most.

The only chance young generations have is to eat like their great grandparents did, before the damage is done. Given the proliferation of junk food, marketing, misinformation that is an uphill battle.

Focusing on macro, fat good carbs bad and vice versa isn't really helpful; you can build a healthy diet with pretty massive variations in macros for a healthy person. Just eat whole foods with plants dominating plate and your as good as done
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on March 02, 2017, 02:17:58 pm
My grandparents (1898-1999) had all of the 20th century to adopt their food habits, bar the last nine months.
This included two World Wars, hyperinflation in Germany, postwar austerity and subsequent prosperity.
There was almost always some CAEK and a little chocolate in their homes.
Chips seldom featured.
Smothering deep-fried foodstuffs with syrup is obesogenic, unsurprisingly.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on April 25, 2017, 09:31:03 pm
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2017/04/breaking-low-carb-specialist-professor-tim-noakes-found-not-guilty-misconduct/?utm_source=Communicator&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Untitled16&utm_campaign=Low+carb+doctor+vindicated+in+trial+of+the+century&utm_dispatch%20ID=5395582&utm_email%20name=DCUK+NL+-+25%2f04%2f17 (http://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2017/04/breaking-low-carb-specialist-professor-tim-noakes-found-not-guilty-misconduct/?utm_source=Communicator&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Untitled16&utm_campaign=Low+carb+doctor+vindicated+in+trial+of+the+century&utm_dispatch%20ID=5395582&utm_email%20name=DCUK+NL+-+25%2f04%2f17)

should never have gone to trial really.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: SteveC on June 21, 2017, 07:19:48 pm
http://www.angry-chef.com/blog/the-natural-alternative-part-1/ (http://www.angry-chef.com/blog/the-natural-alternative-part-1/)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on June 21, 2017, 07:34:54 pm
http://www.angry-chef.com/blog/the-natural-alternative-part-1/ (http://www.angry-chef.com/blog/the-natural-alternative-part-1/)

Pretty much spot on, the blinkers come on though when it means that people cannot have their tasty bacon and eggs for breakfast.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: JennyB on June 22, 2017, 09:29:26 am

Plus  - no tigers in the Fens, unless you count Littleport

But plenty of Fen Tigers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen_Tigers).  ;D
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on June 22, 2017, 10:19:59 am

Plus  - no tigers in the Fens, unless you count Littleport

But plenty of Fen Tigers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen_Tigers).  ;D

Yep, those.

Also look up Littleport Riots
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: JennyB on June 22, 2017, 11:01:08 am

Plus  - no tigers in the Fens, unless you count Littleport

But plenty of Fen Tigers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen_Tigers).  ;D

Yep, those.

Also look up Littleport Riots

I'm  not seeing the Tiger connection - unless perhaps Tasmanian tigers?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on June 22, 2017, 04:08:09 pm
The Littleport rioters were also known as Fen Tigers.

The local rugby team also uses that name
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on July 05, 2017, 04:58:08 pm
I see the Angry Chef (http://angry-chef.com/blog/the-natural-alternative-part-2-revenge-of-the-chef/) is not a fan of the Keto diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on July 05, 2017, 05:07:59 pm
He's also a really bad writer.

Something's going to kill us. Pfft.

As Bill Hicks said (before the cancer got him) non-smokers die too.

At least I get to eat bacon.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Veloman on July 05, 2017, 10:25:00 pm
At least I get to eat bacon.

Sausage for me this morning prior to exam, 3 big links. But ruined it by having them with small baguette with brown sauce (no other spread).  Washed down with black coffee.  Hard life watching others sweat over an exam!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on July 12, 2017, 01:35:06 am
In the KetoLab...

I was doing pretty well last year, running Keto pretty much throughout apart from the odd weekend lapse. Even started cycling again and marvelled at the "I'm home from a 200km and I suppose I ought to eat something even though I'm not actually hungry" weirdness, and in the process dropped n stone, where n is not necessarily 1 or 2 or even 3.

All this fell apart after Jan for various weather/work/ill health reasons. I was finally forced to get my act back together in April/May to achieve some basic fitness for a 1400km jaunt across Europe, which I just about did, at least to the point of not embarassing myself too much, however I hadn't got my diet (as in what I eat rather than how much) sorted and was back to burning carbs. The contrast was amazing... having got rather used to not worrying about what I ate whilst cycling I now had to actively manage nutition and energy levels. Missing breakfast was a real problem and I ate lots of bread, bags of apricots, and other heavy duty carb based food.

After this I had a month to prepare for another european venture... not long enough to do any serious training but long enough to sort my diet out, which I did and by the appointed day I was squarely back in the ketozone. What a difference... I was now running on cheese (Buffalo Mozzarella FTW), salami, nuts, olives, sardines in olive oil, etc. and was fairly bullet proof bonkwise. In fact as the week went on I found myself eating less whilst energy levels stayed high. I simply wasn't hungry and it really was a case of thinking , 'I really ought to eat something whether I'm hungry or not".

It's totally weird to be heading into a deserted mountainous area at night with nothing more than a small bag of almonds in your saddlebag having had zip to eat all day... I really only bought the almonds because thunderstorms were forecast and it seemed a good idea to have something to nibble for morale purposes if I had to hole up somewhere.

It has to be said that following a keto diet in Italy  - home of pizza, pasta, panini and gelato - borders on sacrilege. On the other hand, the Italian keto foods available - cheese, salami, ham, olives, seafood. - are equally delicious and more to the point, don't screw me up.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on July 12, 2017, 09:56:00 pm
I am not in the league of people here but my last 350km ride was as purely kept as you can get.

half a camembert for breakfast.  No lunch leave house at 14:00.  Ride 120km and eat 3 slices of cheese.

At about 190km stop for a break of half a roast chicken from coop.

About 220km (midnight) getting dozy so coffee and a Wispa Gold (I like them)

sleep for 3 hours.

blueberries and double cream from another Co-op then a full englishh at about 300km 

Never really felt hungry but felt I should eat. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: RichForrest on August 09, 2017, 11:43:28 am
Trying this myself, only a couple of weeks in but have lost a stone and feel great so far.
As others have said, it does feel odd not having that hungry feeling and being able to go 16hrs without food.
As expected the 1st few days you are running on empty, fuzzy head and hollow legs when riding to work and back.
Last week was better managing the week befores mileage in 3 days while also trying fasted ride for the 1st time.
This week so far the legs feel great, will see how it goes.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on August 09, 2017, 11:50:22 am
trying to get back on to this, I've let slip for about 8 months, due to work and little cycling, and swmbo insisting that 'fat is bad for you'. Any way regarding carb intake, what would the panel think is an ok max , per day, ie 1 slice of toast, and/or 1 pack crisps, and /or 2 small potatoes, and/or small portion of rice/couscous, not all obviously. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on August 09, 2017, 11:59:08 am
Those sound like the sort of things a low carber would avoid, to me. You get some carbs from things like green leafy veg, and if you want to be properly keto you'd need to cut that lot out entirely.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on August 09, 2017, 01:39:36 pm
Simon has it. Low Carb (to most) means No Grains, No Sugar, No Starches.

From my N=1 experiences, 2 potatoes would massively spike my blood sugar, as would even a small amount of bread. Blood sugar spikes and the consequential insulin response are everything that low carbers are trying to avoid.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on August 09, 2017, 01:58:15 pm
After several months on the straight n narrow I've been backsliding this last week, ransacking the kitchen like a druggie looking for a fix.

Nothing to do with 'body rebelling' and 'cravings' nonsense. Those are just lame excuses; its poor diet management, plain and simple.

The question is, do I hate myself enough to do something about it.

Just say no. TINA.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on August 09, 2017, 02:45:29 pm
Just call it carb backloading.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on August 09, 2017, 09:39:00 pm
Haha! just had a random thought....about.....

'jack Spratt would eat no fat, and his wife would eat no lean'

I have always assumed that 'Jack' was a skinny long nosed chappy and 'his wife'was a sweaty obese individual.


But if one applies the keto diet into the equation , the exact opposite could indeed be the case....hmmmmm   ::-)

(sometimes I do wish my brain had an OFF button).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: RichForrest on August 19, 2017, 11:57:35 am
4 weeks in and down another 0.5st, currently sat at just above 15st (96.2kg) going the right way  :)
Legs feel ok until I come to a hill then I slow right down, may be just that I've been riding the recumbent for the 1st time since May as been riding SS and Fixed since the middle of June.
Question for the the long distance riders (yes I may try and get back into it!).
On long rides do you just fuel with fats or use small amounts of carbs? Have read that some trickle glycogen to the muscles by eating smarties every 20 minutes or so.
Don't suppose it really matters at audax speeds.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on August 20, 2017, 08:33:02 pm
4 weeks in and down another 0.5st, currently sat at just above 15st (96.2kg) going the right way  :)
Legs feel ok until I come to a hill then I slow right down, may be just that I've been riding the recumbent for the 1st time since May as been riding SS and Fixed since the middle of June.
Question for the the long distance riders (yes I may try and get back into it!).
On long rides do you just fuel with fats or use small amounts of carbs? Have read that some trickle glycogen to the muscles by eating smarties every 20 minutes or so.
Don't suppose it really matters at audax speeds.

Tim Noakes was quoting 1.5g/min on twitter the other day - about 240 watts. In an article on Nibali, Michele Ferrari quoted Volek and Phinney(sp?) at 2g/min and 300 watts on fat. Is that sufficient.

I think one of the aims is to become better at using fat at low to moderate exertion and so to spare stored carb for higher intensity work only. I think that takes some time to adapt.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on August 21, 2017, 06:18:04 am
I don't use twitter but 1.5g/min is 90g per hour which I thought was what non fat adapted people were taking in per hour anyway?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on August 21, 2017, 07:47:06 am
I don't use twitter but 1.5g/min is 90g per hour which I thought was what non fat adapted people were taking in per hour anyway?

Not sure Chris. It's 810 kCals/hr, so non trivial on fat only I think. Noakes suggested sufficient for a 2 hr 40 min marathon. I think most people are burning quite a lot of carb at that sort of intensity or at 240 watts on a bike?

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: RichForrest on October 22, 2017, 12:00:23 pm
There's a podcast on 2 keto dudes with a cyclist from the UK (Ian Robathan) on there, if you have an hr to listen to it.
http://www.2ketodudes.com/show.aspx?episode=86
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on January 28, 2018, 05:48:21 pm
Having undone most of the good work of last year, I'm back on the straight n narrow.

Day 10. Got the carbs out of my system by now but still feeling not up to snuff. I blame that more on lack of riding than ketoflu.

Did about 80km yesterday riding hardish but feeling fairly flat today with ~60km mostly at carbobonk speeds.

I get the impression you need to keep consistently active to keep the ketone generator running. Call that, 'positive reinforcement'...

Time will tell
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 29, 2018, 10:27:40 am
trying to get back on to this, I've let slip for about 8 months, due to work and little cycling, and swmbo insisting that 'fat is bad for you'. Any way regarding carb intake, what would the panel think is an ok max , per day, ie 1 slice of toast, and/or 1 pack crisps, and /or 2 small potatoes, and/or small portion of rice/couscous, not all obviously. :facepalm:

Phinney and Volek give a guideline of 50g/day to stay in ketosis, but note that it may vary by individual.

I don't use twitter but 1.5g/min is 90g per hour which I thought was what non fat adapted people were taking in per hour anyway?

That does seem a lot, I'm typically 15-25g/h, stopping every 25km or so to check blood sugar and eating accordingly.  This is with my insulin pump turned down to 20% or normal basal rate. I've not tried turning it lower.

An hour on the turbo typically takes 10g carbs to avoid a crash, with the BG moving from maybe 7==>4.  The strategy is to turn down the pump 4 hours ahead and allow BG to drift up slightly from the target 5-6.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on January 29, 2018, 11:06:43 am
I get the impression you need to keep consistently active to keep the ketone generator running. Call that, 'positive reinforcement'...

Fasting works too. Low/Zero carb and fasting work well together. I can kick about the house doing nowt and hit 4mmol ketones, no trouble. It's what ketones are for - faminous energy.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 29, 2018, 11:27:38 am
That's pretty good, I'm typically 1-2mmol/l, just about there.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on January 29, 2018, 02:18:19 pm
Having undone most of the good work of last year, I'm back on the straight n narrow.

Day 10. Got the carbs out of my system by now but still feeling not up to snuff. I blame that more on lack of riding than ketoflu.

Did about 80km yesterday riding hardish but feeling fairly flat today with ~60km mostly at carbobonk speeds.

I get the impression you need to keep consistently active to keep the ketone generator running. Call that, 'positive reinforcement'...

Time will tell
Manotea wrote me a long PM last year before I started my Keto and it was really encouraging and helpful.

I did Keto last year until March when I went on holiday with my Mum and it worried her what I was eating. To calm her fears I ate more normal food... and fell out of the habit.

Klaus my partner and I started proper Keto on 1 January. We are doing it together which makes it much easier - we plan to do it absolutely properly until the end of June (i.e. give it 6 months) and see how we feel afterwards. He only needs to lose 8kg and has already lost 2, I need to lose 30! (but have lost 6).

We're eating some really nice meals and enjoying breakfasting together. I am also doing the 18:6 fasting on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I find that really easy so far as well. Klaus needs food at 10:30 after breakfast at 6:00, so he has a packed lunch from me of nuts, cheese, olives, mini salami and other goodies that he snacks on during the day.

What has been interesting has been to see the different ways our bodies react. I am mostly not hungry, he is still hungry. I went into Ketosis quickly (according to the Ketostix), he took longer. He is apparently completely out of Ketosis (according to Ketostix) and mine is reducing, but as we are eating the same I think this is that we have already stopped secreting ketones in pee. Which is annoying, as we wanted to use the Ketostix to try to find our optimum carbs.

I am eating about 30g net carbs per day, Klaus 40-50.

I forgot how wonderful it is to not always be hungry, but am struggling again with the very poor choice of desserts (Mascarpone mousse or greek yoghurt for us). I have tried two Keto dessert recipes over the past 2 evenings and they were both no good. It's a bit disappointing!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 29, 2018, 03:24:23 pm
Having undone most of the good work of last year, I'm back on the straight n narrow.

Day 10. Got the carbs out of my system by now but still feeling not up to snuff. I blame that more on lack of riding than ketoflu.

Did about 80km yesterday riding hardish but feeling fairly flat today with ~60km mostly at carbobonk speeds.

I get the impression you need to keep consistently active to keep the ketone generator running. Call that, 'positive reinforcement'...

Time will tell
Manotea wrote me a long PM last year before I started my Keto and it was really encouraging and helpful.

I did Keto last year until March when I went on holiday with my Mum and it worried her what I was eating. To calm her fears I ate more normal food... and fell out of the habit.

Klaus my partner and I started proper Keto on 1 January. We are doing it together which makes it much easier - we plan to do it absolutely properly until the end of June (i.e. give it 6 months) and see how we feel afterwards. He only needs to lose 8kg and has already lost 2, I need to lose 30! (but have lost 6).

We're eating some really nice meals and enjoying breakfasting together. I am also doing the 18:6 fasting on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I find that really easy so far as well. Klaus needs food at 10:30 after breakfast at 6:00, so he has a packed lunch from me of nuts, cheese, olives, mini salami and other goodies that he snacks on during the day.

What has been interesting has been to see the different ways our bodies react. I am mostly not hungry, he is still hungry. I went into Ketosis quickly (according to the Ketostix), he took longer. He is apparently completely out of Ketosis (according to Ketostix) and mine is reducing, but as we are eating the same I think this is that we have already stopped secreting ketones in pee. Which is annoying, as we wanted to use the Ketostix to try to find our optimum carbs.

I am eating about 30g net carbs per day, Klaus 40-50.

I forgot how wonderful it is to not always be hungry, but am struggling again with the very poor choice of desserts (Mascarpone mousse or greek yoghurt for us). I have tried two Keto dessert recipes over the past 2 evenings and they were both no good. It's a bit disappointing!


I have two puddings which I find pretty satisfying.

Keto dark chocolate mug cake (google it) .... essentially its butter, small amount of dark chocolate and cocoa, tiny amount of granulated sweetener, baking powder, ground almonds and an egg .... whack it in the MW for 1 minute and you get a gooey chocolate sponge pudding - cover with double cream

Frozen cheesecake clouds..... mix a whole tub of full fat cream cheese with a good amount of double cream, add a bit of sweetener and whip it up until it stiffens a bit.   I then like to add some chopped up chunks of 85% dark choc or some frozen blueberries.   Divide it out into 12 x silicon molds and freeze it.   You end up with very satisfying frozen cheesecake type things.   
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on January 29, 2018, 05:31:19 pm
I would do both of those without the sweetener personally.

I like the sound of the cheesecake, essentially as per normal just minus the biscuit crumb base
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on January 29, 2018, 05:42:09 pm
I would do both of those without the sweetener personally.

I like the sound of the cheesecake, essentially as per normal just minus the biscuit crumb base

I can enjoy both without the sweetener.... but I also use them as better options for my kids for dessert.   A bit of truvia tricks them into thinking they are getting something really naughty.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 01, 2018, 09:26:53 pm
Klaus my partner and I started proper Keto on 1 January.


Wot? No more cake photos???!!

But glad it's starting to work for you both.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on February 02, 2018, 12:52:38 pm
January's blog will just have 2 cake photos, items that my chums had.

I'm not missing the cakes tooooo much but we may go on a cycle tour for 3 days next weekend and that will make the morning break not so exciting. Or I'm wondering about having a cake anyway on a 100km ride. Will it instantly kick me out of ketosis for several days, or if I'm burning the calories and more can I get away with it?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 02, 2018, 01:14:03 pm
slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on February 02, 2018, 04:08:49 pm
slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.

My approach also is to eat carbs tactically when I think I need some quick access to extra fuel.   This really tends to be before and after fast runs.

Otherwise I try to go carb free for exercise, but that is mainly as I am trying really hard to lose fat and weight.   If I was at race weight (which will never happen) then I think tactical, drip feeding of carbs during hard exercise is absolutely the way to go.   Train low but race high theory.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 02, 2018, 05:14:29 pm
slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.

My approach also is to eat carbs tactically when I think I need some quick access to extra fuel.   This really tends to be before and after fast runs.

Otherwise I try to go carb free for exercise, but that is mainly as I am trying really hard to lose fat and weight.   If I was at race weight (which will never happen) then I think tactical, drip feeding of carbs during hard exercise is absolutely the way to go.   Train low but race high theory.

I should have pointed out, I'm also type 1 diabetic, so I am testing blood glucose regularly and eating to maintain stable levels to match my reduced insulin profile. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Adam on February 02, 2018, 08:23:28 pm
You should get away with one cake, provided you ensure you're very strict with other foods.

But you don't actually NEED the cake anyway.  Be strong!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on February 02, 2018, 09:30:38 pm
slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.

My approach also is to eat carbs tactically when I think I need some quick access to extra fuel.   This really tends to be before and after fast runs.

Otherwise I try to go carb free for exercise, but that is mainly as I am trying really hard to lose fat and weight.   If I was at race weight (which will never happen) then I think tactical, drip feeding of carbs during hard exercise is absolutely the way to go.   Train low but race high theory.

Exactly. You can’t maximize performance with relying on carb for fuel, whether stored glycogen or extrinsic. To train hard enough regularly enough to maximize speed probably requires dietary carb intake, although when I’m in active mode (I.e. not recovering from a detached retina operation) I tend to aim carb intake after training session.

Long endurance appears to be a bit different and there is a continuum of course as transition from burning all fat to all carb is not a switch.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 02, 2018, 10:41:54 pm
Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 02, 2018, 11:39:41 pm
Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly

In my last (2016?) ramp test there was a relatively short warm-up (10-15 minutes) then a ram of 25w every minute until failure, and I was burning mainly fat at moderate work rates already. I'd eaten a carb heavy (muesli, semi skimmed milk, fruit, yoghurt) breakfast about 3h before the test. Coffee was avoided under instructions from the lab.

I can only guess that fat burning would have increased with further time at moderate intensity. However apparently going above threshold turns off fat burning not just in the moment but for some time (it was suggested up to half an hour).

My experience of trying to do hard training is that I can't do it well without having eaten something a few hours beforehand. Trying make it happen by drinking carbs during the workout wasn't effective - I suspect that by the time something gets into your blood, even simple sugars, it's too late.

For moderate intensity workouts under 90 minutes I avoid food, and try to do these in a fasted state if possible. A black coffee is supposed to boost fat burning. Not sure it does, but I like coffee.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 03, 2018, 12:43:45 am
AIUI High dose caffeine is ergogenic and mobilises fat. I believe very high doses are banned under doping regulations.
Simon's lab presumably had reasons for advising against caffeine.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on February 03, 2018, 09:11:10 am
AIUI High dose caffeine is ergogenic and mobilises fat. I believe very high doses are banned under doping regulations.
Simon's lab presumably had reasons for advising against caffeine.

High dose caffeine used to be banned. It currently is not. It’s use could skew the test results.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on February 03, 2018, 01:15:54 pm
So I presume caffeine does have some effect...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on February 03, 2018, 08:09:15 pm
Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly

Sorry, didn’t make myself clear. Agree that you don’t need to feed carbs before a hard session, assuming it’s not a really long one of course, but you do fuel with carb (glycogen) at high intensity. For an athlete doing this type of session several days a week, say an 800m or 5,000m runner (and possibly sprinters too, not my area) you almost certainly need to consume some carb after the session to replenish stocks. Protein is a very expensive source of the amount of carb you might need, and it may also take a bit too long to replenish.

I suspect we’re agreed in fact, just I wasn’t clear.

Mike
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on February 05, 2018, 09:16:02 pm
I was out yesterday most of the day, nominally 4C but a headwind made it feel colder and I got rather chilled. Partly my fault for just wearing a gilet over 2 layers of long sleeved merino. I felt a bit better after switching to a full jacket. Under similar conditions in the past I'd be constantly hungry and eating carbs which is fine as I find the process of digestion helps keep me warm, and the energy boost helps me keep working which again keeps me warm. As was whilst I was feeling cold I had no appetite and I just plodded on.

On the other hand I feel distinctly lighter today...  :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ElyDave on February 05, 2018, 09:24:30 pm
Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly

Sorry, didn’t make myself clear. Agree that you don’t need to feed carbs before a hard session, assuming it’s not a really long one of course, but you do fuel with carb (glycogen) at high intensity. For an athlete doing this type of session several days a week, say an 800m or 5,000m runner (and possibly sprinters too, not my area) you almost certainly need to consume some carb after the session to replenish stocks. Protein is a very expensive source of the amount of carb you might need, and it may also take a bit too long to replenish.

I suspect we’re agreed in fact, just I wasn’t clear.

Mike

Agreed, I'm talking from a viewpoint of an endurance athlete and suspect you are as well.   Sprinting and shorter stuff is not my game and I can't really comment. 

I can report as an experiment of one that when I was 10mile TT-ing as a club cyclist my blood glucose could rise substantially, from the anaerobic exertion and adrenaline.  I had to be very careful of any correction doses of insulin as the adrenaline wore off and the liver dump of glycogen was re-absorbed.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LEE on February 06, 2018, 10:42:15 pm
Anecdotal...

I feel much stronger on my (early morning) Wattbike sessions, including FTP tests, if I eat sensibly the night before and then do the session fasted (with just a double espresso an hour before).

A typical session is an hour and burns (according to the Wattbike) around 900kcals.  That's ideal for a fasted effort, glycogen should be easily accessible.   
Any carbs within an hour of the session have a negative effect  on me, though I may have a banana if I wake up early enough to eat it > 1 hour before we start a tough session.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on February 19, 2018, 10:02:40 pm
Anecdotal... 230km on Saturday.
Had an omelette before setting off at 6:30), then a piece of quiche around 3pm plus some olives and almonds.  When I got home a burger with some cauli-rice. Had a dip in energy during the morning feeling the cold but warmed up after a coffee stop and finished the day 'feeling strong'. Awesome. :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on April 12, 2018, 11:16:58 am
Low fat/Ketogenic it doesn't seem to matter...

Keeping food quality high does seem to matter

http://www.stephanguyenet.com/the-second-nusi-funded-diet-trial-has-arrived/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Von Broad on April 15, 2018, 09:47:25 pm
OK, I'm a little bit reluctant to post this link, since I'm not a person here to advocate a Keto diet, and I'm not here to argue the merits of such a diet or the madness of it, but I've come across this chap 'on the internet' during the last two weeks during the first stages of addressing borderline hypertension that I've had for years.

Short story: angle grinder meets knee, [oh dear] meets hospital, meets a quick general, meets stitches, meets a chat with the theatre technician, meets a promise by me to him that I will now address my blood pressure. And it's about time. So....new blood pressure monitor, the beginning of an education project about what goes on in this body of ours, an appointment with the Doc in a few days time. Blood pressure might be something specific but the body's a pretty complex organism and such a thing can be affected by a multitude of different things - age, genetics, diet, stress etc
I've given myself 3 months of non-medical intervention [off the regular booze, start a moderate exercise program - [back to Audax maybe], diet and some supplements etc] before I go down the meds route. I'm taking the three month period very seriously. Ok, so that's my issue and the subject of a different thread....

But....during my travels on you tube I came across this guy - Dr Eric Berg, and I think he's a brilliant communicator. I'm not somebody that can assimilate a book or read a web-site and have it all sink into the mind, I need to look somebody in the eye [on You Tube!] and have it explained to me in simple language - and I think this guy does a real good job of that. He's a big keto man, but my interest was initially primarily about what he had to say about potassium,omega 3's and minerals in general as regards blood pressure, and as I watched more of his stuff I got a broader picture of what he's about in general as a person.

This is his latest webinar. He's got hundreds of short You Tube videos out there, often repeating himself, but one of his pet subjects is insulin. To my mind, he's got a healthy, balanced approach to all this stuff. There's probably little to learn for the die hard keto fans in this thread but for somebody like me who is looking for a bit more understanding of the body's processes, I found him really interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HxP2VXjtpQ

[There was one mistake he made which he acknowledged in the comments section at minute 36 - he was referring to ounces and not grams. And there is a small sales pitch at the end, but it is right at the end of an hour long webinar].
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on April 15, 2018, 09:53:29 pm
Hey there, Von Broad!

I'm a Ted Naiman fan bois, and I cannot lie.


Diet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzcOz38FjaU&t=26s

Exercise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYXb1xs86U
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on April 16, 2018, 08:25:14 am
How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on April 16, 2018, 09:26:14 am
Green vegetables with hot meals, mixed salads with home made coleslaw, etc.

Veggie based meals* like cauliflower cheese, brocolli and cheese soup, etc.
*may contain traces of bacon!

Last night's evening snack was celery and blue cheese.

Amesbury Amble 300, Sat Apr 14:
Breakfast: Eggnbacon, Lasham: almond flour pancake with peanut butter, Amesbury: mushroom omelette with small side salad, Whitchurch: almond flour pancake, Bracknell: Almonds (all plus coffee!)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on April 16, 2018, 01:22:57 pm
How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?
i use a lot of linseed, chuck them in scrambled eggs or on my salads. I get them free from work (food ingredients manufacturer) but they are available in most health food shops and large supermarkets here in Germany.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on April 16, 2018, 03:54:52 pm
How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?

If anything, the proportion of a well formulated LCHF diet that's fibrous is probably higher compared to a standard western diet; imagine a "normal" meal - meat, two veg and potatoes - now remove the potatoes.

I've found my insides generally much more settled on LCHF - less windy (no more fart wars), and more even-tempered.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on April 16, 2018, 04:18:17 pm
How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?

The majority of my evening meals are meat and veg or salad (mainly broccoli, spinach, sprouts, cauliflower, green beans, cabbage).

Treats are mainly nut based or celery with cheese.

I really don't think getting fibre or roughage is an issue eating like this.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Von Broad on April 22, 2018, 11:41:15 am
Hey there, Von Broad!

I'm a Ted Naiman fan bois, and I cannot lie.


Diet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzcOz38FjaU&t=26s

Exercise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYXb1xs86U

Hi Chris,
I'm not sure I could do a keto diet [no bread and spuds: nightmare!] but It's been interesting reading/watching all this stuff on you tube - and boy, there's so much of it out there! If nothing else I think everybody could do with a bit as basic understanding of how sugar turns to fat and how much of a strain the pancreas can potentially come under from our modern way of living and eating - which can't be good for any of us.
For me these sugary things are like beer - if it's there in front of me, then I'll eat it - there is little discipline, so it's easier not to buy it in the first place. Same with cakes/biscuits etc. Yesterday, I bought some strawberry cheesecake ice scream that was on offer in Sainsburys [Oh yes, look at that - I must have it! - the buggers know how to get you :-). The idea was to keep it at least two days. Scoffed the bloody lot.

Having said that, I'd really quite like to have a go at keto as an experiment, for no other reason than to see how it impacted audax riding [of which I'm doing nowt at the moment]. I'm quite intrigued by the 'we got to the cafe and didn't feel like eating' sensation. I can get a bit paranoid about food when I'm riding [must always be carrying something], mind you, that also has a lot to do with never ever really being fit, but just about getting by. So, we'll see.... 

Anyway, I've gone back over the thread a couple of times, and was wondering how you and fboab got on during PBP 2015 - assuming you were both Keto at the time? I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on April 22, 2018, 07:38:14 pm
 
Quote
I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Von Broad on April 22, 2018, 09:19:59 pm
Quote
I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

Ok. So that period would have naturally 'thrown you out of ketosis' [sorry, it's the blogs again?]but what interests me is how easy or difficult was it for you to get back into the keto swing of things? Was the transition like starting the whole process again, or was it more of a seemless experience, and if so, has it given you the confidence to play with those edges, so to speak - providing you never stray to far from the path?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on April 23, 2018, 08:07:45 pm
Quote
I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

Ok. So that period would have naturally 'thrown you out of ketosis'

Maybe, maybe not. Cycling, amongst other forms of "vigorous" exercise is a massive Insulin sink - and a Keto diet is nothing if not one of Insulin management. I've measured my Ketone levels after a 200 and had a BHB level higher than my blood sugar, despite eating Crumble & Custard, en-route.

Conversely, eating high levels of carbs when there's nowhere for that energy to go will certainly kill ketosis.

The point of following a Keto diet "most of the time" is that you keep the necessary pathways open to running solely on ketones.

I think this is what folks refer to as "Metabolic Flexibility".
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: thesloth on May 09, 2018, 05:14:08 pm
Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on May 10, 2018, 08:47:20 am
Quote
...according to To, he can sustain 250W at a heart rate of just 115bpm

 :o
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on May 10, 2018, 10:35:46 am
Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/
So where does milk (or dilute milk in his case) fit into the Keto spectrum?

I assumed it had too much sugar in ...  :-\
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on May 10, 2018, 10:58:53 am
Both milk and sausages contain carbohydrates. You can be keto with more carb intake than the <40g / day when you are exercising a lot.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chinaski on May 10, 2018, 12:42:14 pm
Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/
So where does milk (or dilute milk in his case) fit into the Keto spectrum?

I assumed it had too much sugar in ...  :-\

https://peterattiamd.com/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on May 10, 2018, 02:59:48 pm
Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/
So where does milk (or dilute milk in his case) fit into the Keto spectrum?

I assumed it had too much sugar in ...  :-\

https://peterattiamd.com/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist/

Find: milk - No matches found
  :(
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Hedlund on May 10, 2018, 05:45:05 pm
My suggestion is to avoid faddish fasts and stay with approved, science-based projects. If it's not too much trouble counsel with a proficient, solid nourishment or restorative expert before setting out on any fasting-like arrangement since this sort of healthful arrangement is plainly not for everybody, particularly those determined to have dietary problems, youngsters and those with uncommon therapeutic conditions.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LEE on May 10, 2018, 06:07:43 pm
Quote
I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

Exactly this.

When you eat carbs the body releases Insulin to store unused carbs/sugars.  You only carry about 2,500kcals of carbs in your blood/liver as "easy access" fuel and, assuming you're burning about 500kcals an hour on an Audax, you'll struggle to eat (and metabolise) that many calories, at that rate, for 24 hours.  If the carbs are gone then one of two things can happen...you can Bonk..or your body will start burning fat reserves (ketosis).

Example - Unfit cyclists (see typical London-Brighton charity rider) are probably burning 800kcals an hour or more.  They aren't adapted to burn fat so they run-dry of carbs/sugars after 2-3 hours and bonk big-style.  That's probably about 40 miles into L2B.  A typical fat-adapted Audax rider wouldn't need to eat, or bonk, on a 50 mile ride in summer.

I think most Audaxers experience a slow, steady, improvement in the way they can metabolise body fat for fuel over time.  It may start off, in the first year, that you bonk badly during a 100mile/200k ride.  I know I did, and I was constantly hungry.  A life of carbs means you aren't "fat adapted".  It hurts when you try and access fat.  After a few years i could get round a 200k with a bowl of soup half way round.  I'm fairly sure I could do a summer 200km on water alone if I kept my heart rate down and didn't try to burn fat at impossible rates. (I specifically say Summer because cold weather and wind-chill makes huge calorie demands on your system).

Over time your body becomes adapted to burn fat as fuel, it's a natural state for most mammals, that's what fat is for, it's your energy reserve for lean times.

A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning.  Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.

Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis.  It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal.  You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better.  Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?

So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in.  Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers.  Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 10, 2018, 06:46:42 pm
Quote
I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

.....A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning.  Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.

Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis.  It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal.  You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better.  Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?

So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in.  Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers.  Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!

I'm by no means on a keto diet but am fat adapted on a bike ride, longish days spent on a trainer putting out a low endurance power with just water will soon get you fat adapted - you don't need to go into ketosis.

And ketosis is a fad, a diet originally meant to treat epilepsy, it's now Atkins remarketed and rebranded and resold to fools who follow the marketing garb which beings me nicely to my next point:-

We are not hunter gathers, we are not on the plains of Africa, you buy your Elk pre-packed in a supermarket so knock the appeal to nature bullshit on the head eh? You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on May 10, 2018, 06:49:45 pm
Once I had a farm was a hunter-gather in Africa.... :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LEE on May 10, 2018, 07:02:51 pm
Quote
I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

.....A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning.  Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.

Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis.  It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal.  You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better.  Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?

So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in.  Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers.  Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!

I'm by no means on a keto diet but am fat adapted on a bike ride, longish days spent on a trainer putting out a low endurance power with just water will soon get you fat adapted - you don't need to go into ketosis.

And ketosis is a fad, a diet originally meant to treat epilepsy, it's now Atkins remarketed and rebranded and resold to fools who follow the marketing garb which beings me nicely to my next point:-

We are not hunter gathers, we are not on the plains of Africa, you buy your Elk pre-packed in a supermarket so knock the appeal to nature bullshit on the head eh? You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).

Ketosis is basically "running on fat" so, on very long rides, you may find yourself in Ketosis whether you want to be in it or not.  It's a physiological condition not a lifestyle choice.

I assumed people died young back then but for a variety of reasons, including Lions, starvation, disease....... but mainly disease I think (as millions of poor Africans still do).

I'm not appealing to nature bullshitting.  I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.   We evolved over millions of years to efficiently store and subsequently burn fat reserves (Ketosis) but we've out-accelerated a million years of evolution in about 200 years to the point that all we do is store fat and never access it again.

Here's the problem.  We actually still are hunter-gatherers.  It just got way too easy to gather.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: campagman on May 10, 2018, 07:09:53 pm
You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).
That age is low because there were a lot of deaths at birth which will bring the average down.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on May 10, 2018, 07:13:39 pm
Quote
I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet for me is that there is no commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed, which similarly offers an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LEE on May 10, 2018, 07:16:01 pm
Quote
I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet is that there is no real commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed. It's an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Intermittent Fasting scares thew shit out of the food industry.  Apart from a million books on the subject there's no money in people not eating food.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on May 10, 2018, 07:38:05 pm
Quote
I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet for me is that there is no commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed, which similarly offers an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Erm, if you've been to a shop recently you might have noticed that keto/low carb etc. is a hugely commercial proposition. Not to mention the books, blogs, and numerous other cash-ins. It's big money.

Advertising and availability have convinced people to eat too much crap food, that's true. Dietetic and nutritional advice has been consistent: eat a balanced diet, eat your greens, avoid processed food, watch your portion size, and do plenty of exercise. Sadly there's no money or commercial edge in that. No diet or fad that can be packaged up. No dubious and cherry-picked science. No zingy advertising. It's dull, sensible, works, and is probably the easiest 'diet' to adhere to.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Von Broad on May 10, 2018, 07:45:32 pm
In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

A lot of folk on plant-based diets would very much concur with that sentiment too of course [at least the ones on Leftpondian You Tube I've been listening too this week :-)] but they just choose to eat different 'real and readily available food stuffs'.

I'm very much on the terraces with this one, but a fascinating game it most definitely is Brian.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 10, 2018, 08:03:09 pm
Quote
I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

.....A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning.  Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.

Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis.  It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal.  You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better.  Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?

So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in.  Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers.  Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!

I'm by no means on a keto diet but am fat adapted on a bike ride, longish days spent on a trainer putting out a low endurance power with just water will soon get you fat adapted - you don't need to go into ketosis.

And ketosis is a fad, a diet originally meant to treat epilepsy, it's now Atkins remarketed and rebranded and resold to fools who follow the marketing garb which beings me nicely to my next point:-

We are not hunter gathers, we are not on the plains of Africa, you buy your Elk pre-packed in a supermarket so knock the appeal to nature bullshit on the head eh? You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).

Ketosis is basically "running on fat" so, on very long rides, you may find yourself in Ketosis whether you want to be in it or not.  It's a physiological condition not a lifestyle choice.

I assumed people died young back then but for a variety of reasons, including Lions, starvation, disease....... but mainly disease I think (as millions of poor Africans still do).

I'm not appealing to nature bullshitting.  I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.   We evolved over millions of years to efficiently store and subsequently burn fat reserves (Ketosis) but we've out-accelerated a million years of evolution in about 200 years to the point that all we do is store fat and never access it again.

Here's the problem.  We actually still are hunter-gatherers.  It just got way too easy to gather.

I believe there's a little but more to Ketosis than just basically 'running on fat'. On a long bike ride, burning fat is not ketosis and never will be.

And you are appealing to nature, qualifying a lifestyle/diet because this is what our ancestors done is appeal to nature.

And diabetes and obesisity is due more to saturated fat then carbs. Reserch has shown that insulin spikes more from white mash with a tuna steak then the white mash on it's own -which is due to saturated fat which increases insulin resistence hence more insulin is induced which can lead to diabetes. I can overload on bananas all I want, I doubt I'll be getting type II any time soon becuase of the amount of dietary fiber that I also get.

And we have evolved over millions of years to eat a plant based diet, our physiology points to this with our hands and fingers, teeth, jaw struture, gut length and gut microbe. You eat antelope because of the taste- not because you actually need it.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 10, 2018, 08:05:07 pm
Quote
I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet is that there is no real commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed. It's an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Intermittent Fasting scares thew shit out of the food industry.  Apart from a million books on the subject there's no money in people not eating food.

 :facepalm: I'll bet, the medical profession love it though.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 10, 2018, 08:08:09 pm
Quote
I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet for me is that there is no commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed, which similarly offers an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Erm, if you've been to a shop recently you might have noticed that keto/low carb etc. is a hugely commercial proposition. Not to mention the books, blogs, and numerous other cash-ins. It's big money.

Advertising and availability have convinced people to eat too much crap food, that's true. Dietetic and nutritional advice has been consistent: eat a balanced diet, eat your greens, avoid processed food, watch your portion size, and do plenty of exercise. Sadly there's no money or commercial edge in that. No diet or fad that can be packaged up. No dubious and cherry-picked science. No zingy advertising. It's dull, sensible, works, and is probably the easiest 'diet' to adhere to.

Indeed, people love being told their bad habits are actually good for them.

Just when the feck did steak and eggs become a healthy breakfast? Since the beef is grass fed and the eggs are organic. ::-)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on May 10, 2018, 08:13:33 pm
Quote
I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet is that there is no real commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed. It's an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Intermittent Fasting scares thew shit out of the food industry.  Apart from a million books on the subject there's no money in people not eating food.

 :facepalm: I'll bet, the medical profession love it though.

More than the current obesity / diabetes / you-name-it epidemics which have been the outcome of populations eating high-carb diets? Seems unlikely...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on May 10, 2018, 08:17:56 pm
In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

A lot of folk on plant-based diets would very much concur with that sentiment too of course [at least the ones on Leftpondian You Tube I've been listening too this week :-)] but they just choose to eat different 'real and readily available food stuffs'.

I'm very much on the terraces with this one, but a fascinating game it most definitely is Brian.

Carbs are the path to the dark side. Potatoes leads to chips, chips leads to a packet of crisps, a packet of crisps leads to another packet of crisps...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on May 10, 2018, 08:31:55 pm
Quote
Reserch has shown that insulin spikes more from white mash with a tuna steak then the white mash on it's own -which is due to saturated fat which increases insulin resistence hence more insulin is induced which can lead to diabetes.

But wasn't it the white mash which caused the insulin spike in the first place? No white mash, no insulin spike.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 10, 2018, 10:33:56 pm
Quote
Reserch has shown that insulin spikes more from white mash with a tuna steak then the white mash on it's own -which is due to saturated fat which increases insulin resistence hence more insulin is induced which can lead to diabetes.

But wasn't it the white mash which caused the insulin spike in the first place? No white mash, no insulin spike.

The tuna steak resulted in a higher spike, which lasted longer. A diet high in saturated fat is imo more unhealthy than one which is high carb.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on May 10, 2018, 10:44:52 pm
The tuna steak, which is recommended on diabetic diet websites because it is low carb, caused the insulin spike?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 10, 2018, 11:04:08 pm
Protein, without fat is absorbed fairly rapidly and much is deaminated and converted to sugar...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Manotea on May 10, 2018, 11:50:36 pm
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on May 11, 2018, 07:01:09 am
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?

Many high protein foods have a higher insulin response per calorie consumed than high carb foods.

For instant beef and fish both have a higher insulin response than porridge.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index

Note also that porridge also has a higher satiety score than beef.

The point about standard dietary advice would carry a bit more weight if the average western diet bore any resemblance to the recommended diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 11, 2018, 07:15:34 am
Fat in food reduces the rate of stomach emptying and food absorption, so that spreading a slice of bread with butter will give a lower sugar and insulin spike than eating it dry.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 11, 2018, 10:32:14 am
The tuna steak, which is recommended on diabetic diet websites because it is low carb, caused the insulin spike?

With the greatest of respect you are being naïve if you don't think the meat and dairy industry don't lobby various government and non government agencies.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 11, 2018, 10:38:15 am
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?

One of the jobs of insulin is to act as a gatekeeper for cells to absorb sugar, sugar being any form of mono or disaccharide. Saturated fat can hinder this process ( a bit like chewing gum being stuck in the lock) so the absoprtion rate goes down and therefore more insulin is released. Not to mention that animal protein ain't a good thing for the body to metabolise.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 11, 2018, 10:41:42 am
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?

Many high protein foods have a higher insulin response per calorie consumed than high carb foods.

For instant beef and fish both have a higher insulin response than porridge.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index

Note also that porridge also has a higher satiety score than beef.

The point about standard dietary advice would carry a bit more weight if the average western diet bore any resemblance to the recommended diet.

Indeed, it's been shown that whey protein has the same insulin response as pure glucose. People are messing with their long term health eating this shite.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on May 11, 2018, 10:47:22 am
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?

One of the jobs of insulin is to act as a gatekeeper for cells to absorb sugar, sugar being any form of mono or disaccharide. Saturated fat can hinder this process ( a bit like chewing gum being stuck in the lock) so the absoprtion rate goes down and therefore more insulin is released. Not to mention that animal protein ain't a good thing for the body to metabolise.

???

I thought delayed absorption reduced insulin secretion.

David's diabetic dad found that modest quantities of ice cream did not raise his blood sugar much.

(Sainsbury's Soft Scoop spreads its sugar petty thin...)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on May 11, 2018, 05:02:27 pm
LMT appears to speak from a vegetarian/vegan position rather than a neutral fact based position - the use of 'in my opinion' reflects the position exactly.

Lee seeking justification from antelope eating ancestors has ignored the likelihood that a hunter gatherer also gathers and may well subsist on berries, fruit vegetables and honey, with antelope being a rare treat. Plus antelope, in my experience, is usually pretty low in fat (as is tuna!)


Obviously, in the developed west we are able to easily eat far too much of everything and do far too little. Plus we are drawn to do this by ever more tempting treats and a self indulgent culture, encouraged, if not propagated, by the advertising industry. It may even be necessary for our economic model...

I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on May 11, 2018, 05:11:37 pm
I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)
In my opinion you will never see such a study (nor set of studies!); the reason being the range of our omnivourism (is that a real word?). Humans, their ancestors, and their various sub-tribes have lived in very varied environments. The eskimo-types living mostly on polar-bears and whale blubber being one example (that I'm sure has been talked about somewhere in these 34 pages!)

But I agree with you - refined sugar and alcohol would probably be absent!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on May 11, 2018, 05:57:44 pm
I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)
In my opinion you will never see such a study (nor set of studies!); the reason being the range of our omnivourism (is that a real word?). Humans, their ancestors, and their various sub-tribes have lived in very varied environments. The eskimo-types living mostly on polar-bears and whale blubber being one example (that I'm sure has been talked about somewhere in these 34 pages!)

But I agree with you - refined sugar and alcohol would probably be absent!

:) It's interesting that the ability to adapt and live on a radically different diet has often been the key to survival for different human groups and individuals through the ages.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: LMT on May 11, 2018, 06:26:47 pm
LMT appears to speak from a vegetarian/vegan position rather than a neutral fact based position - the use of 'in my opinion' reflects the position exactly.

Lee seeking justification from antelope eating ancestors has ignored the likelihood that a hunter gatherer also gathers and may well subsist on berries, fruit vegetables and honey, with antelope being a rare treat. Plus antelope, in my experience, is usually pretty low in fat (as is tuna!)


Obviously, in the developed west we are able to easily eat far too much of everything and do far too little. Plus we are drawn to do this by ever more tempting treats and a self indulgent culture, encouraged, if not propagated, by the advertising industry. It may even be necessary for our economic model...

I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)

You won't find such a study for the reason that it is potentially immoral. Forcing someone to adher to a particular diet over a long period of time for studying when that person as a result of such study could develop ill health is morally wrong. It's very much why you'll never find a study which conclusively states as a fact that if you smoke you'll get cancer, because forcing someone to smoke (even though they do anyway) in an effort to see if they develop cancer is again morally wrong.

What you can do is to look at the many, many, many peer reviewed studies and come to your own conclusions. Look at what has been studied, who has carried it out and more importantly who funded it. The studies I've seen regarding the benefits of the meat, dairy and eggs will more often than not be funded by these very industries. And the people behind them, have they got your best interests at heart (pun intended) or are they trying to sell you something? You only need to look at the various health conventions held in the USA on obseity, from what I've seen there's always a big drug company sponsoring them. I recall looking at the agenda of one of these conventions and one of the workshops was how to keep the patient coming back! Not how to heal them or stop them from being sick, how to have the coming back. Obesity and diabetes is big business in the USA, with the medical profession trying to cure rather than prevent. Rather cycnical for sure but it is what it is.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: chrisbainbridge on May 12, 2018, 08:20:56 pm
You won't find such a study for the reason that it is potentially immoral.

No, it is not immoral, necessarily.  this is the difference between epidemiological studies and research.  Epidemiological studies look at groups of people either at a point in time or over a period of time and try to compare groups who are separated only by one factor.  However if there is a factor of which you are unaware then the groups will give misleading results.

Research takes 1 group of people and randomly allocates them to a number of groups, usually 2 but can be more.  One of the groups will always be worse but so long as at the start you are uncertain about which group then it is morally acceptable to randomise people.  The technical name is equipoise.

I see this routinely where a trial I am running has been assessed by funding groups, ethics committees and approved. Then one surgeon turns round and says that he or she will not enrol a patient because the alternate treatment is obviously inferior. AAAAARgh. You are an idiot who does not know the literature!!
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Pickled Onion on May 12, 2018, 09:36:50 pm
It's very much why you'll never find a study which conclusively states as a fact that if you smoke you'll get cancer, because forcing someone to smoke (even though they do anyway) in an effort to see if they develop cancer is again morally wrong.

No, the reason you won't find a study which states that as a fact is because it's not a fact.

Studying something doesn't have to involve creating the conditions you are studying (forcing people to do something) just like studying the motion of the planets doesn't require launching some planets into space.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on May 14, 2018, 11:50:56 am
LMT appears to speak from a vegetarian/vegan position rather than a neutral fact based position - the use of 'in my opinion' reflects the position exactly.

Lee seeking justification from antelope eating ancestors has ignored the likelihood that a hunter gatherer also gathers and may well subsist on berries, fruit vegetables and honey, with antelope being a rare treat. Plus antelope, in my experience, is usually pretty low in fat (as is tuna!)


Obviously, in the developed west we are able to easily eat far too much of everything and do far too little. Plus we are drawn to do this by ever more tempting treats and a self indulgent culture, encouraged, if not propagated, by the advertising industry. It may even be necessary for our economic model...

I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)

There are many studies and a near complete scientific consensus on a optimal diet. It's the 'eat-your-greens-and-do-some-exercise' one I mentioned earlier. Of course, there's no money or hype in common sense.

Humans never ate much meat, until the debut of the supermarket it was difficult to obtain (given its tendency to run away). As such, we are not especially good at handling large amounts of dietary protein, unlike obligate carnivores who not only can digest large amounts of animal protein, but have a lifestyle suited to the calorific requirements of chasing and catching that protein. We're wide-spectrum omnivores, and as such most humans since the dawn of time have likely received the majority of their calories from carbohydrates. Human civilisation is a corollary for our being able to farm and produce sufficient carbohydrate without the limits of our peripatetic gathering lifestyle.

Modern life, of course, brings with it (for those of us in the developed world at least) a surfeit of easily absorbed calories and often a sedentary existence. Dietary revisionism is non-sensical, we eat too much and do too little. Demonising food groups (fat, carbohydrate etc.) might be appealing, but again, it doesn't make a lot of scientific sense. It's an inviting reductionism.

Its also often said we've evolved to do this and that. We don't evolve to do anything. We didn't evolve to eat meat or carbohydrate. Evolution isn't active or directional. If anything, humans have been successful because of their dietary flexibility – we don't have to survive solely on meat, or bamboo. We can generally do a reasonable job in digesting whatever is available.
Title: Fat adaption/Ketosis
Post by: ianrobo on November 22, 2018, 04:46:19 pm
My riding really changed the day I found out about this, So when fully adapted I rode the Tour of flanders - 226km and did this fasted and can not emphasise just how good it is. Does anyone have their experiences of this ?

I can not recommend it highly enough as no need for crappy processed gels etc and no upset stomach I used to get !
Title: Re: Fat adaption/Ketosis
Post by: hellymedic on November 22, 2018, 04:50:11 pm
There are but 34 pages of posts... https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=67736.0 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=67736.0)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: The Movers on November 22, 2018, 04:58:59 pm
Topics merged to reduce tedium
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 22, 2018, 05:17:27 pm
ah sorry never saw this and can see the usual debates as well ....

On studies in general most you see regarding food are false, they are based on recall diaries and asking people what they eat over the past month, you try that ? and then you lie about the junk ... the only true food study would be a RCT with hundreds of people locked up on metabolic wards, fed tightly controlled food of different sorts and exercise measured.

As you can imagine that is almost impossible to do though the FASTER study did some but based on 6 weeks, for food that is not enough.

So I base it not on studies but the science and especially how we metabolise fat, carbs and proteins

and most studies are then biased it seems nowadays by the influence of big food and veganism
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on November 22, 2018, 05:41:24 pm
and most studies are then biased it seems nowadays by the influence of big food and veganism

Dammit. Tea in the keyboard again.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 26, 2018, 10:07:28 am
I can't think of anything worse than a diet based on fat. Other than some eskimos eating seals, I can't quite figure out whether there is some long term evidence of any benefit. There are certainly long term studies on the detrimental effects of animal fats, saturated fats and transfats.

I have never been fat myself, but I have been overweight by up to 2 stones and what really helped stabilise my weight have been cutting meat and reducing alcohol.

I don't know how each contributed individually, but I would say the alcohol reduction has been minor, as I have never been a heavy drinker, a case of going from 10 units a week down to 4 or 5 (couple of pints a week), whereas cutting meat has been a more significant change.
My meals are largely based on grains, pulses and vegetables. My protein intake would probably horrify most supporters of a "western diet", but I have seen no ill effect, if anything, I am stronger than I used to be.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 26, 2018, 11:33:03 am
I can't think of anything worse than a diet based on fat. Other than some eskimos eating seals, I can't quite figure out whether there is some long term evidence of any benefit. There are certainly long term studies on the detrimental effects of animal fats, saturated fats and transfats.


I could quote you loads of articles and books to read on this, some think it is a cult science issue I guess.

But in layman's terms Fat for energy is the bodies's preferred energy source. Carbs is used first if available as it is a quick access so for power events etc.

However for us in the Audax world etc we would be mainly riding in our fat burning zones and if you become errficent at these levels (only way to do that is to drop the carbs as a primary food source) then in my example makes massive improvements.

Best example was I did the marmot in 2016 - finished in 11:01 then went Keto, could do 4 hour fasted rides and next year did the Marmotte in 9:02 with no food during the ride.

and the differences int he pictures between the two clear for all to see
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 26, 2018, 12:18:27 pm
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Craigus on November 26, 2018, 12:31:38 pm
I can't think of anything worse than a diet based on fat. Other than some eskimos eating seals, I can't quite figure out whether there is some long term evidence of any benefit. There are certainly long term studies on the detrimental effects of animal fats, saturated fats and transfats.


I could quote you loads of articles and books to read on this, some think it is a cult science issue I guess.

But in layman's terms Fat for energy is the bodies's preferred energy source. Carbs is used first if available as it is a quick access so for power events etc.

However for us in the Audax world etc we would be mainly riding in our fat burning zones and if you become errficent at these levels (only way to do that is to drop the carbs as a primary food source) then in my example makes massive improvements.

Best example was I did the marmot in 2016 - finished in 11:01 then went Keto, could do 4 hour fasted rides and next year did the Marmotte in 9:02 with no food during the ride.

and the differences int he pictures between the two clear for all to see

Define that bit for me? Preferred in what way?

Fat burning zones don't really exist either, you burn marginally more fat at lower intensities, but it is so minimal that it's almost irrelevant.

Your Marmotte experience, whilst an interesting anecdote, is pretty useless as an example in this discussion.

Basing your diet on this 'keto' for performance gain is clearly not the answer, nor is your physical overall health going to benefit from it when compared to a balanced diet based around vegetables and whole foods.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on November 26, 2018, 12:35:49 pm
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese
I'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)

That is  the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you". ::-)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 26, 2018, 12:41:16 pm
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese

Well has Pie is high carbs, nope ... as for cholesterol that is a total myth backed up by outdated science. Read anything by Dave Feldman on that,

shall I post my bloods on here ? which take a year ago after being on veto show perfect ?

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 26, 2018, 12:43:24 pm
Define that bit for me? Preferred in what way?

Fat burning zones don't really exist either, you burn marginally more fat at lower intensities, but it is so minimal that it's almost irrelevant.

Your Marmotte experience, whilst an interesting anecdote, is pretty useless as an example in this discussion.

Basing your diet on this 'keto' for performance gain is clearly not the answer, nor is your physical overall health going to benefit from it when compared to a balanced diet based around vegetables and whole foods.

read the FASTER study and shows when fully fat adapted at low to moderate range of intensity you burn fat at a very high level, if not explain how I could do a 200km ride fasted ?

as for mentioning whole foods, there is no better whole food than Meat, totally unprocessed unlike say any wheat based product you care to mention, try and eat wheat raw or unprocessed
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 26, 2018, 12:50:01 pm
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese
I'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)

That is  the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you". ::-)

Yes, probably eating bacon is better than fuelling yourself with full fat coke on the day of your brevet, but as a habit I am not even sure that is the case. Glycemic index is an issue, but overall cholesterol is a bigger issue and it's more likely that you get type 2 diabetes out of being obese than out of screwing your insulin levels on a daily basis... there are many ways of becoming obese, some rely on sugar, some rely on fat.

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.

What I say is that there is nothing wrong at all in a diet largely based on starch and fiber. There are plenty of long living populations who in essence eat just that (rice or else and vegetables). Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine... I'd like to see how the French Paradox fares with a "Tanzanian access to health care"...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 26, 2018, 01:32:47 pm
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese
I'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)

That is  the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you". ::-)

Yes, probably eating bacon is better than fuelling yourself with full fat coke on the day of your brevet, but as a habit I am not even sure that is the case. Glycemic index is an issue, but overall cholesterol is a bigger issue and it's more likely that you get type 2 diabetes out of being obese than out of screwing your insulin levels on a daily basis... there are many ways of becoming obese, some rely on sugar, some rely on fat.

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.

What I say is that there is nothing wrong at all in a diet largely based on starch and fiber. There are plenty of long living populations who in essence eat just that (rice or else and vegetables). Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine... I'd like to see how the French Paradox fares with a "Tanzanian access to health care"...

you know of no one who eats refined sugar ? not a single person as most processed foods have it in ....

and why fibre ? I eat prob less than 10grams a day and I have never been so regular or fine in that area, in fact on rides as a carb burner I used to get awful stomach issues, no longer.

and you are aware of satiety levels, you can not eat fat past feeling full, you can with carbs. and I believe as many do now in the insulin model of being fat and fat does not cause T2D but the other way round, have you checked out Robert Lustig's video's on sugar etc. Are you aware that carb's turn into sugar in your body, in essence they are no different from eating 200 calories of wheat and 200 calories of sugar.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Craigus on November 26, 2018, 01:57:53 pm
Define that bit for me? Preferred in what way?

Fat burning zones don't really exist either, you burn marginally more fat at lower intensities, but it is so minimal that it's almost irrelevant.

Your Marmotte experience, whilst an interesting anecdote, is pretty useless as an example in this discussion.

Basing your diet on this 'keto' for performance gain is clearly not the answer, nor is your physical overall health going to benefit from it when compared to a balanced diet based around vegetables and whole foods.

read the FASTER study and shows when fully fat adapted at low to moderate range of intensity you burn fat at a very high level, if not explain how I could do a 200km ride fasted ?

as for mentioning whole foods, there is no better whole food than Meat, totally unprocessed unlike say any wheat based product you care to mention, try and eat wheat raw or unprocessed

I really can't be bothered to go into this, I've done it in the past on multiple forums. There is so much misinformation available today about nutrition you can always find a counter argument to anything.

Keto is no different to any other fad diet. Atkins, fasting, whatever. Diets usually work because they give people a framework to reduce the amount they consume and think about what they are eating. The diet isn't what gives people success, it is merely the vehicle for changing eating habits. They give people something to latch onto and often an identity (see: Vegan).

You cannot do better than a balanced diet.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ian H on November 26, 2018, 02:18:29 pm


You cannot do better than a balanced diet.

Indeed.  Here's a link to yer actual expert advice:  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/should-you-try-the-keto-diet
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Auntie Helen on November 26, 2018, 03:25:52 pm
I was properly Keto from January to April this year. I have to say, I have never felt better in myself, it was wonderful to not spend the whole time thinking about when I would have my next meal, I lost 11kg...

Unfortunately Keto is very hard to stick to, mainly because of the lack of desserts (I do like dessert!). I got very good at various Keto cakes and biscuits as treats, but they just ain't the same as carby versions.

We still eat low carb but have far too many carbs in the day so the hunger is back again. I should try to cut back a bit again, but it's tough when my colleague brings cake into work most days! At least breakfast, lunch and evening meal are low carb, it's just the snacks that are the problem!

I hope we can reduce the carbs a bit more next year as I really did feel brilliant in my body.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 26, 2018, 03:38:41 pm
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese
I'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)

That is  the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you". ::-)

Yes, probably eating bacon is better than fuelling yourself with full fat coke on the day of your brevet, but as a habit I am not even sure that is the case. Glycemic index is an issue, but overall cholesterol is a bigger issue and it's more likely that you get type 2 diabetes out of being obese than out of screwing your insulin levels on a daily basis... there are many ways of becoming obese, some rely on sugar, some rely on fat.

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.

What I say is that there is nothing wrong at all in a diet largely based on starch and fiber. There are plenty of long living populations who in essence eat just that (rice or else and vegetables). Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine... I'd like to see how the French Paradox fares with a "Tanzanian access to health care"...

you know of no one who eats refined sugar ? not a single person as most processed foods have it in ....

and why fibre ? I eat prob less than 10grams a day and I have never been so regular or fine in that area, in fact on rides as a carb burner I used to get awful stomach issues, no longer.

and you are aware of satiety levels, you can not eat fat past feeling full, you can with carbs. and I believe as many do now in the insulin model of being fat and fat does not cause T2D but the other way round, have you checked out Robert Lustig's video's on sugar etc. Are you aware that carb's turn into sugar in your body, in essence they are no different from eating 200 calories of wheat and 200 calories of sugar.

Clearly you have done a lot of investigations and keep quoting names I have never heard before. I simply stick to the guidelines of NHS and WHO, which might be boring and dated, but are based on solid science... so try to keep a low cholesterol, have reduced salt and steer clear of known carcinogenic... like bacon for instance.

It seems to work for me, in the sense that I no longer have weight oscillations and have reduced cholesterol and blood pressure to within the guidelines. If it didn't work, I too might have tried some magic potion from the web  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 26, 2018, 03:57:43 pm
Clearly you have done a lot of investigations and keep quoting names I have never heard before. I simply stick to the guidelines of NHS and WHO, which might be boring and dated, but are based on solid science... so try to keep a low cholesterol, have reduced salt and steer clear of known carcinogenic... like bacon for instance.

It seems to work for me, in the sense that I no longer have weight oscillations and have reduced cholesterol and blood pressure to within the guidelines. If it didn't work, I too might have tried some magic potion from the web  :thumbsup:

People should do what they like and yes I spent a month researching veto, reading books etc before deciding to do it. And where I really disagree is that WHO PHE and others are the proper sources. IMHO they are all compromised by various factions, biog food, Vegan etc ...

So good for you, if you found something you believe works for you, that's great ! However I get angry when you say studies etc when if you quoted one I could tear it apart within a few minutes on various grounds, not least most done on recall of food diaries which are notoriously unreliable. 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 26, 2018, 03:58:50 pm


I hope we can reduce the carbs a bit more next year as I really did feel brilliant in my body.

same here, I am defo low carb but not really keto .. so after xmas I will be going full on Keto again for my years prep ...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 26, 2018, 04:11:27 pm
And where I really disagree is that WHO PHE and others are the proper sources. IMHO they are all compromised by various factions, biog food, Vegan etc ...


... that sounds a bit conspiracy theory to be honest. I think WHO are pretty radical when they say processed meat IS carcinogenic, probably more radical than some guys on youtube...

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 26, 2018, 04:16:08 pm
And where I really disagree is that WHO PHE and others are the proper sources. IMHO they are all compromised by various factions, biog food, Vegan etc ...


... that sounds a bit conspiracy theory to be honest. I think WHO are pretty radical when they say processed meat IS carcinogenic, probably more radical than some guys on youtube...

No it is a CT as the head of WHO is a vegan and you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ian H on November 26, 2018, 04:20:27 pm
...you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that

He didn't say exactly that. 

https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/processed-meat-causes-cancer-warns-who-report/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 26, 2018, 04:22:07 pm
...you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that

He didn't say exactly that. 

https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/processed-meat-causes-cancer-warns-who-report/

That’s the report I meant, firstly says processed meat and then was on a correlation report not causation. Some say nitrates but many veggies contain that and the food studies as I said based on recall diaries
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 26, 2018, 04:28:39 pm
...you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that

He didn't say exactly that. 

https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/processed-meat-causes-cancer-warns-who-report/

That’s the report I meant, firstly says processed meat and then was on a correlation report not causation. Some say nitrates but many veggies contain that and the food studies as I said based on recall diaries

Processed meat, that's what I said.

The evidence is deemed to be of the same quality as evidence on asbestos and smoke... unless of course there is a conspiracy...

It's actually the nitrites rather than the nitrates to be carcinogenic, small point but often cause of misinterpretation, just like yours...

Nitrite is NO2-
Nitrate is NO3-

Nitrites react with amines in your gut to form nitrosoamines, which are the actual carcinogenic molecules.

This science was known in the 1970s... problem is, the alternative is to NOT use nitrites in processed meats and get botulism instead... grim option if you ask me
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ian H on November 26, 2018, 04:39:56 pm


This science was known in the 1970s... problem is, the alternative is to NOT use nitrites in processed meats and get botulism instead... grim option if you ask me

Yeah, but if you don't like the science, there's always some plausible-sounding person on Youtube.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on November 26, 2018, 04:45:09 pm
Actually, there are alternatives to nitrites in preserved meats (you can buy nitrite-free preserved meats). To be honest, to have a significantly elevated risk of cancer as an individual, you'd probably have to eat a lot of preserved meats, which means you likely have a poor diet anyway, hence a lot of confounding risk factors. Risk evidence is usually poorly presented (a small percentage increase in the risk of something that only has a small percentage prevalence doesn't make a big percentage of risk etc.)

I don't, sadly, think that there's a big conspiracy to foist balanced diets on people. The Radical Spinach Front and the Provision Brocolli Faction only exist in my head. The opposite is unfortunately true. I suspect any radically unbalanced diet will eventually entail problems, excess carbs on the pancreas, fat on the cardiovascular system, and protein on the liver and kidneys.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 26, 2018, 05:04:58 pm
Actually, there are alternatives to nitrites in preserved meats (you can buy nitrite-free preserved meats). To be honest, to have a significantly elevated risk of cancer as an individual, you'd probably have to eat a lot of preserved meats, which means you likely have a poor diet anyway, hence a lot of confounding risk factors.

When I ate bacon, I used to buy nitrite free from The Fruit Pig Company, although it wasn't clear what they used instead, in order to avoid colonies of clostridium botulinum.
I appreciate the risk is relatively small, but my anecdotal evidence on the topic is quite compelling. I come from an area in northern Italy where many people used to make their own salami... the incidence of bowel cancer (among other cancers of the digestive system) is huge.

The funniest thing is that many blame the plume of radioactive dust from Chernobyl for that. People would go a long way to deny the most obvious evidence...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on November 26, 2018, 06:10:23 pm
I don't, sadly, think that there's a big conspiracy to foist balanced diets on people. The Radical Spinach Front and the Provision Brocolli Faction only exist in my head. The opposite is unfortunately true. I suspect any radically unbalanced diet will eventually entail problems, excess carbs on the pancreas, fat on the cardiovascular system, and protein on the liver and kidneys.

Too true!
I am finding it very hard to resist cakes, pies and biscuits when they are on Special Offer. I get tempted when things are 'only £1'

Though my shopping is not weighed down by these treats, it would be SO easy to buy and eat LOTS more.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on November 26, 2018, 06:51:33 pm
Actually, there are alternatives to nitrites in preserved meats (you can buy nitrite-free preserved meats). To be honest, to have a significantly elevated risk of cancer as an individual, you'd probably have to eat a lot of preserved meats, which means you likely have a poor diet anyway, hence a lot of confounding risk factors.

When I ate bacon, I used to buy nitrite free from The Fruit Pig Company, although it wasn't clear what they used instead, in order to avoid colonies of clostridium botulinum.
I appreciate the risk is relatively small, but my anecdotal evidence on the topic is quite compelling. I come from an area in northern Italy where many people used to make their own salami... the incidence of bowel cancer (among other cancers of the digestive system) is huge.

The funniest thing is that many blame the plume of radioactive dust from Chernobyl for that. People would go a long way to deny the most obvious evidence...

Oh, there's certainly a known risk factor, but generally, unless you're habitually eating a lot of preserved meat, it's not a big threat. Nitrite levels have been lowered significantly by successive legislation (which obviously won't apply to home-made salami). What we often neglect when there's a OMG! Cancer! story is that we remove an ingredient with a known risk and replace it with one that's often an unknown risk. The occasional bacon sandwich or chorizo in a Spanish stew isn't going to have a significant impact on your risk of cancer. Nitrite is hard to replace, I think alternatives are usually large quantities of ascorbate and colouring agents. I'm minded again towards balance. Chances are the positive effects of eating a large amount of fruit, veg, and unprocessed foods will far outweigh an occasional round of bacon sandwiches.

Criminalizing any food group doesn't make a lot of sense, though it seems to be the foundation of many diets. Yes, you can find a study to support any dietary choice, but dietary advice has been consistent and straightforward for many decades. It is alas not sexy, it doesn't promise to change your life in seven days, and probably won't get you a book deal.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on November 26, 2018, 07:29:07 pm

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.
Really?? It's in pretty much all processed food, and it's the main ingredient of that white powder people put in their tea-n-coffee. (Do you know any real people?? )


Quote
Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine.
What are you talking about now?? No-one here is suggesting a boycott on vegetables!

What next: "Silly vegetarians - living off toffee and chips. They should stick to a balanced diet!"
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: simonp on November 26, 2018, 09:07:23 pm
I don't often bake a cake, but when I do, it certainly has refined sugar in it.

Last night's effort: 200g butter, 200g sugar, 200g flour, 4 eggs, and about 500g of apples.

Quite a lot of sugar in there and much of what isn't is refined carbs in the flour.

In the US diet, kind of food is the number 1 source of calories. ("Grain based desserts").

I'd like to know which dietary advice the Americans are following that says "let them eat cake".
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on November 26, 2018, 09:17:40 pm
[OT] 'Pound' cake with apples - very nice!

Assume apples are 10% sugar so around 50g sugar there, as well as 400g other carbs.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 26, 2018, 09:51:56 pm
I don't often bake a cake, but when I do, it certainly has refined sugar in it.

Last night's effort: 200g butter, 200g sugar, 200g flour, 4 eggs, and about 500g of apples.

Quite a lot of sugar in there and much of what isn't is refined carbs in the flour.

In the US diet, kind of food is the number 1 source of calories. ("Grain based desserts").

I'd like to know which dietary advice the Americans are following that says "let them eat cake".

Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined 
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: sojournermike on November 26, 2018, 10:02:36 pm
I don't often bake a cake, but when I do, it certainly has refined sugar in it.

Last night's effort: 200g butter, 200g sugar, 200g flour, 4 eggs, and about 500g of apples.

Quite a lot of sugar in there and much of what isn't is refined carbs in the flour.

In the US diet, kind of food is the number 1 source of calories. ("Grain based desserts").

I'd like to know which dietary advice the Americans are following that says "let them eat cake".

Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined
[/b]

Quote
Apples do contain sugar, but much of the sugar found in apples is fructose.

When fructose is consumed in a whole fruit, it has very little effect on blood sugar levels (7).

Also, the fiber in apples slows down the digestion and absorption of sugar. This means sugar enters the bloodstream slowly and doesn't rapidly raise blood sugar levels (4).

Moreover, polyphenols, which are plant compounds found in apples, also slow down the digestion of carbs and lower blood sugar levels (8).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Craigus on November 26, 2018, 10:11:28 pm

Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined

Don't start with that nonsense. Someone mentioned something equally stupid at work the other day with regards to me eating a banana comparing it to a Mars bar and I just laughed and left the conversation.

I don't know anyone who has gotten fat from eating fruit.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on November 26, 2018, 11:24:34 pm

Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined

Don't start with that nonsense. Someone mentioned something equally stupid at work the other day with regards to me eating a banana comparing it to a Mars bar and I just laughed and left the conversation.

I don't know anyone who has gotten fat from eating fruit.

Whole fruit is around 10g per portion and most folk can't stomach more than around 300g fresh fruit in one sitting (=~30g sugar 2-3 apples) so it's difficult to down fattening quantities. Juice the fruit and drink it like/instead of water and you're onto a different game and downing unhealthy amounts of sugar is easy.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 27, 2018, 06:12:56 am

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.
Really?? It's in pretty much all processed food, and it's the main ingredient of that white powder people put in their tea-n-coffee. (Do you know any real people?? )


Quote
Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine.
What are you talking about now?? No-one here is suggesting a boycott on vegetables!

What next: "Silly vegetarians - living off toffee and chips. They should stick to a balanced diet!"

Well, you were talking about eating refined sugar and I meant just that. Sugar is in most sweet foods... what can I say? At least it is not a known carcinogenic and if it's bad for kids it's not really something that concerns me
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 27, 2018, 07:27:08 am

Oh, there's certainly a known risk factor, but generally, unless you're habitually eating a lot of preserved meat, it's not a big threat.


But that's the point...

I would say Joe average eats processed meat containing nitrites on a daily basis... whether it's the ham in a sandwich at lunch, or it's the ballotine of chicken wrapped in Parma ham as seen on Masterchef, or the cooked breakfast, or the sliced turkey sandwich, or the pepperoni pizza or the diced pancetta to add flavour to your cabbage or your carbonara dish... In an average Supermarket, there is an entire refrigerated aisle of processed meat... plus another refrigerated aisle of ready meals, many of which contain processed meat, plus some triangular sandwiches which also contain processed meat...  someone must buy the stuff.

I have never been one to center a meal around meat, but I used to consume processed meat most days in a form or another. A little, rather than a lot, but consistently. I would say I was below average
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on November 27, 2018, 10:01:26 am
But still, it's quantity and not frequency. I think the risk is small and compared to other factors, like poor diet in general, negligible. Again, it flows into the schema of binary dietary advice that weirds food – everything must be good or bad.

Eating cake is fine. Eating it every day less so. The idea of toffee and chips is certainly intriguing but perhaps isn't to be advised. I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 27, 2018, 10:10:14 am
I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...

They also have the highest rate of diabetes, heart disease and bowel cancer in the western world... west aside, probably only bettered by the Vodka guzzling coutries.

I don't share your optimism on the "low risk" associated with processed meat

Anyway, back to ketogenic... I am not so sure we evolved as "fat eaters", our ancestors (and by that I mean apes rather than Neanderthals) have a diet largely based on sugars (simple and complex) and fibre and our digestive system is not at all dissimilar to that of a chimp BUT a lot different to that of rodents (as an example of fat eaters) or big cats (as an example of pure meat eaters)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on November 27, 2018, 10:29:26 am
Well, you were talking about eating refined sugar and I meant just that. Sugar is in most sweet foods... what can I say? At least it is not a known carcinogenic and if it's bad for kids it's not really something that concerns me

But it is carcinogenic. According to their latest advertising campaign Cancer Research UK think Obesity is the second largest preventable cause of cancer. I loathe their wording- it's not that obesity causes cancer, but the things that make you fat also give you cancer. And a lot of that is sugar.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 27, 2018, 10:35:36 am
Well, you were talking about eating refined sugar and I meant just that. Sugar is in most sweet foods... what can I say? At least it is not a known carcinogenic and if it's bad for kids it's not really something that concerns me

But it is carcinogenic. According to their latest advertising campaign Cancer Research UK think Obesity is the second largest preventable cause of cancer. I loathe their wording- it's not that obesity causes cancer, but the things that make you fat also give you cancer. And a lot of that is sugar.

Yes, but indirectly... I could eat a lot of cake because I need 5000 KCal a day to support my training and there is no direct link to cancer there. If I was to eat a lot of ham and bacon to make up the same calories intake, there would be a DIRECT link to cancer.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying cake is good nutrition, but on balance is probably better nutrition than doner kebab
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 27, 2018, 10:44:40 am
Quote from: ian

Eating cake is fine. Eating it every day less so. The idea of toffee and chips is certainly intriguing but perhaps isn't to be advised. I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...

Yep all cooked in seed oils (check out impact of too omega 6 ) and then washed down with litres of sugary drinks and then people wonder why the South has such an obesity issue
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ian on November 27, 2018, 11:44:30 am
I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...

They also have the highest rate of diabetes, heart disease and bowel cancer in the western world... west aside, probably only bettered by the Vodka guzzling coutries.

I don't share your optimism on the "low risk" associated with processed meat

Anyway, back to ketogenic... I am not so sure we evolved as "fat eaters", our ancestors (and by that I mean apes rather than Neanderthals) have a diet largely based on sugars (simple and complex) and fibre and our digestive system is not at all dissimilar to that of a chimp BUT a lot different to that of rodents (as an example of fat eaters) or big cats (as an example of pure meat eaters)

Humans are omnivorous, as such we do best eating what we can find. We don't have the adaptions to digest large amount of fibrous vegetable matter or to handle large amounts of protein. We certainly wouldn't have had the opportunity for large amount of fats or meat, the problem with animals is that they run away, catching them is energy expensive (and as mentioned, we're not very good at digesting the result).

Humans have, with few exceptions, got the majority of their calories from unrefined carbs (grains, fruit, starchy veg) for as long as we know, that's probably why we started farming grains. It's easier to catch a potato than a tiger, and you're less likely to be eaten by a tiger if you don't spend your day in the middle of a field munching grass.

Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health. But like anything, fats as part of a balanced diet are fine. Of course, the fats-are-bad narrative drove the entire low-calorie market, which primarily replaced modest amounts of fat (yes, yes, bacon butter, also a thing) with less modest amounts of sugar and salt.

Meanwhile, on the subject of bacon toffee fries (https://beyondfrosting.com/2014/01/26/loaded-maple-bacon-donut-fries/).
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: hellymedic on November 27, 2018, 02:21:44 pm
Slightly OT- Storable carbs gave us literacy and culture. Hunter-gatherers only sit down to chat, draw, read and write until the next meal...
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: ianrobo on November 27, 2018, 02:28:05 pm

Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health.

This keeps getting thrown out, can you please show me the metabolic science that backs this up ?

I can guide you proper science with metabolic pathways that states this, can you do the same ?

This is from Wiki and of course I can show you keto articles saying the same - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid_metabolism fat does not become fat.

A calorie is not a calorie - See Robert Lustig easy to understand Youtube articles using proper science

Remember we were once told to stop eating so many eggs as they were large cholesterol foods and that would cause us heart attacks, well that advice has been dropped as eating it does not mean it gets stored as that.


Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: mattc on November 27, 2018, 02:34:01 pm
... and if you eat a "large enough amount" of anything it will be bad for you!

Subbing nuts/cheese calories for the bread ones won't by itself give you dangerous amounts of fat.
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 27, 2018, 02:54:05 pm

Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health.

This keeps getting thrown out, can you please show me the metabolic science that backs this up ?

I can guide you proper science with metabolic pathways that states this, can you do the same ?

This is from Wiki and of course I can show you keto articles saying the same - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid_metabolism fat does not become fat.

A calorie is not a calorie - See Robert Lustig easy to understand Youtube articles using proper science

Remember we were once told to stop eating so many eggs as they were large cholesterol foods and that would cause us heart attacks, well that advice has been dropped as eating it does not mean it gets stored as that.

Evaluating long term damage, based on a metabolic pathway is not possible. It's not the way science works.

In engineering terms, it would be a bit like assessing metal fatigue with a stress/strain test

The majority of science out there points towards saturated fat as a bad thing, then of course there are voices saying the exact opposite. If you want to believe the minority, you can of course do so.
Saturated fat is more common in animal fat, but there is quite a few even in non animal fat, most notably in things like coconut and palm oil.

Anyway, if eating fat works for you, all is well... long term you might be a winner or you might not, time will tell.

Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Chris S on November 27, 2018, 02:54:19 pm
... and if you eat a "large enough amount" of anything it will be bad for you!

Subbing nuts/cheese calories for the bread ones won't by itself give you dangerous amounts of fat.

Totally, but the Fasting thread is over there -->

 :)
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: Ian H on November 27, 2018, 04:05:42 pm


This keeps getting thrown out,

Well, not quite.  A certain amount of healthy scepticism is needed for all baldly simple statements like that.
https://www.nhs.uk/news/heart-and-lungs/saturated-fats-and-heart-disease-link-unproven/
Title: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
Post by: fboab on November 28, 2018, 09:44:33 am
Slightly OT- Storable carbs gave us literacy and culture. Hunter-gatherers only sit down to chat, draw, read and write until the next meal...
They also gave us wars, famines, plagues- larger families, larger settlements and higher infant mortality. A societal boom-bust.
The big winner in farming is wheat and grasses- cereals were a