Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: spindrift on October 14, 2013, 03:24:24 pm

Title: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: spindrift on October 14, 2013, 03:24:24 pm
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/coroner-blasts-mayors-cycle-superhighway-as-accident-waiting-to-happen-at-inquest-of-man-killed-in-crash-with-tipper-truck-8879430.html

Quote
Coroner blasts Mayor's cycle superhighway as 'accident waiting to happen' at inquest of man killed in crash with tipper truck

(http://www.standard.co.uk/incoming/article8879446.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/roundabout.jpg)

Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: Pete Owens on October 14, 2013, 08:21:01 pm
If you arrange for a stream of traffic heading straight ahead at a junction to approach to the left of a stream of left turning traffic you are likely to cause problems at the point where the two streams cross.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: pdm on October 14, 2013, 09:16:59 pm
Why oh why oh why is he blaming the road again!  :facepalm:

Whatever happened to rule 182?

"182

Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users in particular may be hidden from your view.
(https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/static/hc/hc_rule_182_do_not_cut_in_on_cyclists.jpg)
Highway Code - Rule 182 Do Not Cut In On Cyclists"
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: spindrift on October 14, 2013, 09:55:45 pm
That image doesn't represent what happened, Ross Lydall tweeted that if the HGV was in the near-side lane, there's no way it couldn't encroach the blue paint. It wouldn't fit.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: tonycollinet on October 14, 2013, 10:10:31 pm
But that doesn't explain why the HGV needs to occupy the same bit of blue paint as a cyclist.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: Pete Owens on October 15, 2013, 12:00:14 am
Look at the picture.

How on earth do you think a truck (or any other vehicle for that matter) can turn left without encroaching the blue paint? teleportation?
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: AndyMorris on October 15, 2013, 12:04:44 am
That image doesn't represent what happened, Ross Lydall tweeted that if the HGV was in the near-side lane, there's no way it couldn't encroach the blue paint. It wouldn't fit.

The truck driver might of had to swing out before turning to avoid clipping the curb.

The whole "stay to the left you'll be safer there" design philosophy behind almost all UK facilities is completely wrong. The best placve to be is right where people are looking.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on October 15, 2013, 12:14:20 pm
That image doesn't represent what happened, Ross Lydall tweeted that if the HGV was in the near-side lane, there's no way it couldn't encroach the blue paint. It wouldn't fit.
There are lanes like that in York.

Utter stupidity.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: tonycollinet on October 16, 2013, 01:06:39 pm
Look at the picture.

How on earth do you think a truck (or any other vehicle for that matter) can turn left without encroaching the blue paint? teleportation?

If that reply was to me - I didn't say they shouldn't be in the blue paint, just not the same bit of blue paint that a cyclist is trying to occupy at the same time. In other words - open eyes, and dont drive over people.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: Regulator on October 16, 2013, 06:27:21 pm
Look at the picture.

How on earth do you think a truck (or any other vehicle for that matter) can turn left without encroaching the blue paint? teleportation?

If that reply was to me - I didn't say they shouldn't be in the blue paint, just not the same bit of blue paint that a cyclist is trying to occupy at the same time. In other words - open eyes, and dont drive over people.

Bang on.  The coroner has spectacularly missed the point.  This is nothing to do with blue paint.  It's about the driver of a large, dangerous machine not looking where he is going and checking that his way is clear.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: Pete Owens on October 16, 2013, 07:29:28 pm
No, it is about a cycle facility guiding a cyclist heading straight on to ride to the left of a vehicle that is turning left - in a position where they are unlikely to be noticed.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: Regulator on October 16, 2013, 07:33:50 pm
No, it is about a cycle facility guiding a cyclist heading straight on to ride to the left of a vehicle that is turning left - in a position where they are unlikely to be noticed.

No it's not.  And that's the problem...   

Society keep trying to find excuses and other reasons for deaths like these rather than address the fundamental point - that we have allowed motor vehicles to dominate our streets and our lives, and that we do not take deaths on the roads seriously enough.  Society treats them as collateral damage rather than taking decisive action against those who, through negligence and inattention, cause the death of another road user.

You do not turn without checking and doublechecking that your way is clear and you're not going to run someone over.  It's very simple really.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: Domestique on October 16, 2013, 07:57:37 pm
No, it is about a cycle facility guiding a cyclist heading straight on to ride to the left of a vehicle that is turning left - in a position where they are unlikely to be noticed.

No it's not.  And that's the problem...   

Society keep trying to find excuses and other reasons for deaths like these rather than address the fundamental point - that we have allowed motor vehicles to dominate our streets and our lives, and that we do not take deaths on the roads seriously enough.  Society treats them as collateral damage rather than taking decisive action against those who, through negligence and inattention, cause the death of another road user.

You do not turn without checking and doublechecking that your way is clear and you're not going to run someone over.  It's very simple really.

I would also add the blue paint should also mean anyone turning left will be more than aware there could be cyclists around. Unless their not looking.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: spindrift on October 17, 2013, 10:09:17 am
Quote
Miss De Gerin-Ricard crashed with a lorry outside Aldgate East Tube station while she rode home to Bromley-by-Bow, in east London, on July 5 this year.

She was cycling along one of the London Mayor's so-called flagship commuter cycle routes, though the section she was on provides no segregated space for cycling.

The front of the lorry collided with the rear wheel of the bicycle, the inquest heard.

Miss De Gerin-Ricard had been riding on the footpath before passing the scaffolding, possibly in a move to try to get past a bus.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/first-boris-bike-death-ruled-an-appalling-accident-by-coroner-8885729.html

Look at the junction where Mr Dorling died again, where would you ride? You could take aggressive primary but then you have to cut in to get back to the segregated bit. I wouldn't undertake a lorry there, nor would I act like Miss De Gerin-Ricard did, and that's not criticising either cyclist. When I cycle I want lorry drivers to see me, I don't want to pop up unexpectedly or undertake them, but that blue paint encourages cyclists up into the danger zone. It doesn't mean anything, it's not a lane, it's not separate and we know that nearside lane's too small to take a large vehicle and cyclist. 

Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: clarion on October 17, 2013, 11:02:47 am
There seems to be an outbreak of 'clipping' wheels in the press.  Perhaps it'll turn into 'gently massaging' the rider with the wheels. >:(
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: Gandalf on October 17, 2013, 11:13:05 am
When I was knocked off my bike and it went to court, the perps legal rep described the collision as "a coming together".  Magistrate wasn't having any of it though, fortunately.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: ian on October 17, 2013, 11:35:44 am
Is there any other industry in the UK where it would be OK to kill or injure someone on the basis that you didn't bother to look first?

If you're a lorry driver in London and you don't think there's the cyclist on your inside at a junction, then you are wrong.
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: Pickled Onion on October 17, 2013, 12:28:55 pm
If you're a lorry driver in London and you don't think there's the cyclist on your inside at a junction, then you are wrong.

Exactly. and the vast majority of lorry drivers can be seen carefully checking, and waiting for the road to be clear, without swearing or gesticulating at anyone who happens to be there, no matter how ill-advised that person's manoeuvre might have been. It's normal, expected, no more of a problem than having to wait at red lights. Unfortunately there are few who hoon around like they're on a private racetrack and everyone had better get the f*** out of their way or suffer the consequences. Unfortunately each time the inevitable happens the legal system, and society in general, seems to have exactly the same attitude. "They should have kept out of the way". "What can we do to keep people out of the way".

The comment from the coroner in that article was good: "and added that cyclists also should be taught to “dominate” a lane when there was insufficient space for bikes alongside vehicles". Which makes a refreshing change from "don't cycle up the left". It would even better if drivers were also taught to expect cyclists to "dominate a lane when there is insufficient space".
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: spindrift on October 17, 2013, 04:27:08 pm
Coroner says she's a cyclist, her report in full:

http://lydall.standard.co.uk/2013/10/in-full-coroners-verdict-at-inquest-of-first-cyclist-killed-riding-a-borisbike.html
Title: Re: "It's just a piece of blue paint"
Post by: rower40 on October 18, 2013, 06:40:20 am
Anecdata alert:
Many years ago, my dad told us of a scare he'd had at a newly-installed mini-roundabout.  (Cambridge, junction of Lensfield Road (LR) and Trumpington Street/Road (TS/TR)  "Newly-installed?" I hear you ask. "Many years ago" I re-iterate.)

He was heading south on a bike from TS to TR. Northbound, there are two lanes.  The left lane is for staight-on TR to TS, the right is for a right turn into LR.  The right lane was empty, so he set off, thinking that nothing would be turning right.  What he had missed was the hooooge artic in the left lane, turning right.  It couldn't get round the corner from the right lane, so had to be in the straight-on lane to turn right.

The warning - All road users should expect the unexpected.  The lorry driver did, as he stopped dead and braked when my dad went across the roundabout in front of him.