Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: hellymedic on August 01, 2014, 03:53:23 pm

Title: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on August 01, 2014, 03:53:23 pm
I do wish the journos reporting this tragic story could count!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28611078 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28611078)
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: David Martin on August 01, 2014, 04:08:29 pm
They can - they have rounded down to whole years. It wasn't 13 years
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on August 01, 2014, 05:11:45 pm
They appear to have edited the wording from 'ago' to 'later'...
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Diver300 on August 02, 2014, 09:20:06 am
From an official document published by a large manufacturing company, later revised when I told them about it:-

0.01% failure rate (1000 ppm)

Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: citoyen on August 08, 2014, 09:42:31 pm
I think it might have been mentioned in another thread at the time but there was a Co-op ad recently that claimed a bank holiday weekend was a third longer than a regular weekend.

:facepalm:
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: asterix on August 09, 2014, 08:30:19 am
Well it is a third day longer..
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Andrij on August 11, 2014, 09:33:01 pm
(https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/q79/s720x720/1939433_1023685690994217_8033129593823460003_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: David Martin on August 11, 2014, 09:43:00 pm
So? There are many places that sell coffee but do not have a store.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on August 28, 2014, 10:49:50 am
Quote
A surge in immigration from within the European Union (EU) was behind the increase as two-thirds of all immigrants to the UK in the period - 214,000 out of 560,000 - came from within the EU.
From today's Telegraph. Just as likely to be cringeworthy editing/proofreading probably, but still...
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: CommuteTooFar on August 28, 2014, 12:56:10 pm
My company forgot last years promised 6% pay rise so I grumbled. So they said this year they would pay me 6% and 4% = 10% this year. Surely 10% is 6% and 3.77%.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: lastant on August 28, 2014, 01:45:48 pm
Recently decided to purchase a Jawbone UP24 to do a bit of quantified self-ing (mostly interested in the sleep monitoring / reporting) having got some Love2Shop vouchers to use up.

I then spotted I could order it in to my local Halfords, which meant I could also use my British Cycling discount. Every little helps etc..

List price of £104.99, the girls on the till between them decide to not simply scan in the barcode for the BC discount but enter it manually. I quote: 'So, ten percent of that. That's...twelve pound fifty'.

Nice little bonus for me, just disappointing when it's one of those simple ones to calculate!
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on July 28, 2016, 05:42:27 pm
From today's Independent.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-police-shooting-statistics-discharge-firearms-figures-freddie-gray-baton-killings-homicide-a7160391.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-police-shooting-statistics-discharge-firearms-figures-freddie-gray-baton-killings-homicide-a7160391.html)

British Police fire guns 7 times in one year.
British population 64M
USA population 319M
Quote
The United States of course has a bigger population than the UK – Britain has 64.1 million residents, the US 319 million. But on a per-capita basis, Britain’s rate of police gun use would translate into US police using their guns on 84 occasions in an entire year. This would be an unthinkably low number.

How does 7 * 5 = 84?
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Bledlow on July 28, 2016, 06:46:50 pm
My company forgot last years promised 6% pay rise so I grumbled. So they said this year they would pay me 6% and 4% = 10% this year. Surely 10% is 6% and 3.77%.
Not necessarily. Depends on how they calculate it. 6% of your salary plus 4% of your pay before the 6% raise is 10%.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: PhilO on July 28, 2016, 07:59:40 pm
Almost any advertisement claiming a discount...

"Everything up to 50% off!!!"

 ::-)
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ElyDave on July 28, 2016, 08:03:20 pm
Not quite arithmetic, but "it's Thursday, welcome to the start of finals week on masterchef"

Surely midway through finals week?
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: TheLurker on July 29, 2016, 10:10:46 am
The start of a maths lesson, 197{ahem!}; a maths teacher flinging marked homework jotters at pupils.  He arrives at that belonging to a Boy Lurker...

 Boy Lurker!  3 times 3?
 Boy Lurker, rapidly and confidently, six sir.
 *A moment's silence for the awful truth to sink in.*
A pitying look from the maths teacher as the Boy Lurker cringes at his desk whilst his school-fellows pour (well deserved) scorn and derision upon him.

I had made _exactly_ the same error in the homework, I'd done all the hard stuff (chiz algebra) perfectly but stuffed up basic arithmetic.  Over the years MrsLurker has come to recognise that my arithmetic is a little, umm, fuzzy and does our accounts.  It's probably for the best. :)
 
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Giraffe on July 29, 2016, 05:53:42 pm
Almost any advertisement claiming a discount...

"Everything up to 50% off!!!"

 ::-)
Even worse (for the customer), something like 'up to -25% discount'. Seen it only once and decided to pass on by.
Local shoe shop offered BOGOF - um?
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Bledlow on July 29, 2016, 07:03:25 pm
Free left with every right!
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Kim on July 29, 2016, 08:08:06 pm
I've seen BOGOF on eyebrow threading, which makes even less sense than shoes.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Basil on July 29, 2016, 08:15:26 pm
Surely BOGOF on shoes, eyebrows and any other obviously pairs are simply an attempt at humour.  I remember the surgeon trying to make the same joke DURING my vasectomy years ago.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Kim on July 29, 2016, 08:17:23 pm
Surely BOGOF on shoes, eyebrows and any other obviously pairs are simply an attempt at humour.  I remember the surgeon trying to make the same joke DURING my vasectomy years ago.

To be fair, you don't want actually funny jokes during a vasectomy...
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Basil on July 29, 2016, 08:27:21 pm
Good point.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Mr Larrington on July 29, 2016, 08:37:43 pm
No, TV's Henry Coles, a motorcycle introduced in 1958 is 58 years old.  That, by any stretch of the imagination, is not "nearly 70".
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Feanor on July 29, 2016, 08:38:00 pm
Mrs F was never that much into Numbers and all.
She had to do a Tax module at Law School back in the day.

I remember trying to help out with the basic problem:

If something costs £100, and we add 10% tax, it then costs £110. That's fine.
But why can't I just remove the tax element by removing 10% of the £110?

She's still not convinced about the arithmetic, and suspects alien involvement.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on July 29, 2016, 08:52:31 pm
No, TV's Henry Coles, a motorcycle introduced in 1958 is 58 years old.  That, by any stretch of the imagination, is not "nearly 70".

I too am that age and of that vintage.

I am CERTAINLY NOT 'nearly 70'!
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: TheLurker on July 29, 2016, 09:37:24 pm
No, TV's Henry Coles, a motorcycle introduced in 1958 is 58 years old.  That, by any stretch of the imagination, is not "nearly 70".
I dunno 58 is nearly 60 which is the same order of magnitude as 70 sooo if you wave your hands enough it is nearly(ish).  :)

Entirely irrelevant aside.  Saw him, that Cole bloke, with his mate Sam this lunchtime at The Plough at Kelmscott.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: T42 on July 30, 2016, 08:00:25 am
2016-1947 = 69.  That makes me cringe.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 30, 2016, 09:51:18 am
No, TV's Henry Coles, a motorcycle introduced in 1958 is 58 years old.  That, by any stretch of the imagination, is not "nearly 70".

I too am that age and of that vintage.

I am CERTAINLY NOT 'nearly 70'!
Perhaps fair enough when you're talking about a motorcycle and want to emphasise how amazingly advanced it was.
"Despite being designed 58 years ago, the Norazuki 500 Death Star Red Dwarf is technologically identical to a modern motorcycle, featuring overhead valves, electronic ignition and an early form of antilock braking."
Sounds quite impressive.

"Despite being born 58 years ago, Helen is anatomically identical to a modern human, featuring stereoscopic eyes, opposable thumbs and an early form of bipedal locomotion."
Hmmm...
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Steph on July 30, 2016, 09:22:08 pm
I was born in 1958, and am 58. I find that curiously satisfying, and symmetrical
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on July 31, 2016, 08:48:54 am
So do I!
But
I am not 'nearly 70'.
We have outlived Prince and Michael Jackson born that year.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Tim Hall on July 31, 2016, 09:13:12 am
Surely BOGOF on shoes, eyebrows and any other obviously pairs are simply an attempt at humour.  I remember the surgeon trying to make the same joke DURING my vasectomy years ago.

To be fair, you don't want actually funny jokes during a vasectomy...
I dunno. During mine, the crool  nurse showed me the first bit of tube they had snipped out, balanced on the tip of her gloved finger.
"Don't touch me" she warned "I'm sterile "

"And I soon will be" I replied, as they moved from left bollock to right.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Mrs Pingu on August 29, 2016, 09:46:01 pm
Quote
Opinions vary on how many children grow up thinking the wrong man is their father, but German studies put the figure at between less than 4% and more than 10%.

So  0-4% or 10-100% then? But definitely not 5-9%  :facepalm:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/29/germany-plan-force-mothers-reveal-childs-biological-father
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: David Martin on August 29, 2016, 11:27:27 pm
No, between a number less than 4 and a number greater than 10, so definitely including the range 4-10 but maybe not including the ranges 0-4 and 10-100
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Giraffe on August 30, 2016, 09:16:51 am
Re. the test of autonomous cars in Singapore: the area is only 2 square kilometres (OK so far) on a side(!)
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: mattc on August 30, 2016, 12:26:07 pm
No, between a number less than 4 and a number greater than 10, so definitely including the range 4-10 but maybe not including the ranges 0-4 and 10-100
Well deciphered.



Its almost certain that this one was the work of an innumerate journo (i.e. most of them). But this would have been so easy to fix with the little word "about" (or even "roughly").

Frustrating, but not surprising.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: jsabine on August 30, 2016, 03:35:14 pm
No, between a number less than 4 and a number greater than 10, so definitely including the range 4-10 but maybe not including the ranges 0-4 and 10-100
Well deciphered.



Its almost certain that this one was the work of an innumerate journo (i.e. most of them). But this would have been so easy to fix with the little word "about" (or even "roughly").

Frustrating, but not surprising.

I thought it was awkwardly phrased rather than innumerate - and not even that hard to decipher.

But I'd have gone for something like "at least around 1 in 25, but perhaps as many as 1 in 10 ..."
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Mrs Pingu on August 31, 2016, 06:22:05 pm
No, between a number less than 4 and a number greater than 10, so definitely including the range 4-10 but maybe not including the ranges 0-4 and 10-100

Well I know that, but surely the thing to say would have been between 3 and 11%!
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Feanor on August 31, 2016, 08:15:17 pm
I've spent much of the afternoon trying to make sense of someone else's code in relation to units.
The Help File and the Program were inconsistent, and investigation with actual numbers became a maze of twisty passages.

The code can take inputs in a variety of units ( typical oilfield nonsense ), and generates simultaneous outputs in various units which seemed to be incorrectly labelled.  It seemed the code was producing the correct answers, but in orders of magnitude wrong ( ie the units were incorrectly prefixed with K or M )

The decoding of this required a bunch of head-scratching as to what they authors actually meant.
Here are some examples:

hm3. (Hecto-metres) cubed. Not Hecto (Meters cubed). 100m x 100m x100m. 1 hm3=1000000 m^3.

MMBBL. 10^6 ( one Million ) Stock Tank Barrels. A Barrel is BBL. But in Awl Field Talk, a Million is prefixed MM sometimes. Not just M.

Bft3. Billion ( 10^9 ) Standard Cubic Feet.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Mrs Pingu on August 31, 2016, 08:24:27 pm
And an Mbbl is 1000 bbls. Bloody confusing until you get used to it.

But then go to world of corrosion where they quote corrosion rates interchangeably as either mpy or mmpy, where mpy is 1/1000 of an inch per year and mmpy is a millimeter per year.   :facepalm:
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: David Martin on August 31, 2016, 10:49:31 pm
Given the accuracy of corrosion prediction, does that factor of 25(ish) matter?
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Kim on September 01, 2016, 12:24:22 am
There's a dedicated circle of hell for this stuff, isn't there?
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Bledlow on September 01, 2016, 12:30:49 am
If there isn't, there should be.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ElyDave on September 01, 2016, 08:21:36 am
If there isn't, there should be.

There is, it's called the EU emissions trading shecme (EUETS) where I'm required to verify operator's emissions in tonnes of CO2, but they use units like those above.

MMscf ffs  :demon:

The biggest issue is things like Feanor's above where folks take in stuff in volume, do stuff to it and try and spit out something else at the end.  Teh problem is that many of them (reservoir engineers in partic) have a very fixed view of the world and use fixed factors in their code that screw things up.

Doing everything in mass is much more sensible as that is conserved throughout, only do mass/vol conversions right at the end and use up to date factors
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Mrs Pingu on September 01, 2016, 12:25:12 pm
Given the accuracy of corrosion prediction, does that factor of 25(ish) matter?

God alone knows. I try to keep away from the rust department as much as possible.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: clarion on September 02, 2016, 09:40:03 am
About 40 thou to a mm, isn't it?
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you despair
Post by: hellymedic on January 25, 2017, 08:42:50 pm
University nearly kills studes with caffeine...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38744307 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38744307)
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ElyDave on January 25, 2017, 09:06:57 pm
I read that one, both humorous and  :o at the same time
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you despair
Post by: redshift on January 25, 2017, 09:36:04 pm
University nearly kills studes with caffeine...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38744307 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38744307)

Back in the dim and distant past, when I was pretending to be doing a degree in Biochemistry and Chemistry, we were regularly presented with a list of the chemistry we would be using in upcoming labs.  The idea was then to attend the library and consult such fabulous references such as N. Irving Sax's 'The dangerous properties of industrial chemicals' or the Merck Index, or similar works, and write up a complete safety audit for each chemical we were going to use, including what to do if it was spilled or ingested.  Not presenting a safety audit resulted in not doing the lab, and this was in the 80's, long before elfin safety and risk assessments were anything like as prevalent as today.  I remember having to look up caffeine for one experiment, and finding new respect for the fine white crystals that filled the sample tube at the end of the day.  The story reads like there were neither safety audits nor supervision for that experiment - an audit alone should have primed someone to notice that they were out by a factor of 10, based on LD50 alone, surely?
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: barakta on January 25, 2017, 09:55:35 pm
I have a friend who has been a postdoc at a few unis and she says H&S can be shocking in some places. There is limited supervision of younger students and researchers and when stuff goes wrong coverups are massive. Cutting corners only works for so long.

I hope other unis are reading that and thinking "SHIT, we'd better look at ourselves carefully too".
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Manotea on January 25, 2017, 10:08:51 pm
True story in (long) post decimal Britain....

Customer: 100 rolls please...

Rolls cost 4p each.

Shop Assistant to friend: What's 4 times 100?
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Kim on January 25, 2017, 11:30:24 pm
True story in (long) post decimal Britain....

Customer: 100 rolls please...

Rolls cost 4p each.

Shop Assistant to friend: What's 4 times 100?


Can't be that long post-decimal if rolls anything costs 4p thobut.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on January 25, 2017, 11:35:32 pm
"Rolls of what?" was my first thought.
 :D ;) ::-) :facepalm: ;D
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Kim on January 25, 2017, 11:42:45 pm
SMD resistors, maybe...
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Feanor on January 25, 2017, 11:46:30 pm
There are plenty of scams that rely on people not being able to do arithmetic.

That's £10:84, please.
OK, I'll give you £20.84, and you give me a tenner back.
Ah, I don't have the 84. So i'll give you this shilling and a thruppney, and you can give me a groat back, if I take back my original £20 and give you a tenner and a groat instead. And there's a sheckel in it for you too.

Err...

This is why modern tills are programmed to try deal with this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on January 26, 2017, 01:12:14 am
True story in (long) post decimal Britain....

Customer: 100 rolls please...

Rolls cost 4p each.

Shop Assistant to friend: What's 4 times 100?


Graves' rolls were 3p when I was a young Penniless Student Oafette in 1976, rising to 5p by 1981.
Trufax.

If this had been around 1978, decimalisation would have been 7 years previously...

Can't be that long post-decimal if rolls anything costs 4p thobut.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Legs on January 26, 2017, 08:47:10 am
Graves' rolls were 3p when I was a young Penniless Student Oafette in 1976, rising to 5p by 1981.
Trufax.

There's a Viz Top Tip along the lines of "keep all of your till receipts so that you can bore your grandchildren with greater accuracy in years to come"  Were you an early adopter of this advice, helly?  ;)
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on January 26, 2017, 01:16:43 pm
Graves' rolls were 3p when I was a young Penniless Student Oafette in 1976, rising to 5p by 1981.
Trufax.

There's a Viz Top Tip along the lines of "keep all of your till receipts so that you can bore your grandchildren with greater accuracy in years to come"  Were you an early adopter of this advice, helly?  ;)

 :) ;) ;D  No.

I sometimes have a very retentive memory thobut.
I wasn't even particularly Penniless, though managing my own budget was was a new experience.
Sheffield was cheap, student grants were generous and having multiple sibs in Higher Education cut parents' contribution considerably.
I became adept at making a Little Money Go A Long Way, which was easy then.
This was useful when Parents Stopped All Money as I had been Naughty.

Rice Pudding Hallamshire Hospital 4p/bowl...
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on February 12, 2018, 09:04:28 pm
From the lovely Bournemouth Echo.
Nursing home loses £8,000 per week which is '£32,000 per quarter'.

I thought there were 13 weeks in a quarter and 8,000 x 13 = £104,000.

Did she mean a (short) month?

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/15987698.__39_It__39_s_a_shambles__39___NHS__39__new_patient_discharge_system_leaves_care_home_facing_closure/?ref=mr&lp=15 (http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/15987698.__39_It__39_s_a_shambles__39___NHS__39__new_patient_discharge_system_leaves_care_home_facing_closure/?ref=mr&lp=15)
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Pingu on November 29, 2018, 12:59:55 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/29/four-years-hottest-record-climate-change

Quote
Average temperatures around the world so far this year were nearly 1C (33.8F) above pre-industrial levels.

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Si S on November 29, 2018, 01:06:40 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/29/four-years-hottest-record-climate-change

Quote
Average temperatures around the world so far this year were nearly 1C (33.8F) above pre-industrial levels.

 :facepalm:

Probably should be grateful they aren't up 274.15 kelvin
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Greenbank on November 29, 2018, 01:13:03 pm
Never trusted those Foreignheits.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: citoyen on November 29, 2018, 01:16:26 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/29/four-years-hottest-record-climate-change

Quote
Average temperatures around the world so far this year were nearly 1C (33.8F) above pre-industrial levels.

 :facepalm:

That is brilliantly daft.

Probably should be grateful they aren't up 274.15 kelvin

Anyone who watched the last series of Bake Off will have seen the little Amazon Alexa ads that bookended each commercial break. One of them had Our Intrepid Baker asking "Alexa, what's the boiling point of sugar?" to which Alexa replies "The boiling point of sugar is XXX degrees."

Now, leaving aside the fact that the question is nonsensical, since sugar doesn't have a boiling point as such, it really infuriated me that Alexa didn't specify the scale in her answer - I can't recall the exact figure quoted but I'm sure it must have been in Fahrenheit, which shouldn't be too surprising given that Alexa is Transpondian, but a) my old maths teacher would have given her a clout round the ear for such sloppiness, and b) it's the 21st feckin' century so use Celsius already. Anyway, I amused myself by imagining that Our Intrepid Baker guessed that Alexa was working in Kelvin and so put their sugar solution in the freezer to boil it...
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ElyDave on November 29, 2018, 01:53:04 pm
Of course sugar has a boiling point,

which must be specified based on the exact composition i.e. a solution of x% w/w sugar in water boils at YY deg C at ZZ pressure.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 29, 2018, 01:55:23 pm
Of course sugar has a boiling point,

which must be specified based on the exact composition i.e. a solution of x% w/w sugar in water boils at YY deg C at ZZ pressure.
Even then it's going to vary from batch to batch isn't it, what with sugar being a plant-produced compound and not just the same thing always?

Anyways, the original story is wonderfully silly.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: citoyen on November 29, 2018, 02:02:03 pm
Of course sugar has a boiling point,

which must be specified based on the exact composition i.e. a solution of x% w/w sugar in water boils at YY deg C at ZZ pressure.

My understanding is that dry sugar granules don't have a boiling point as such - they just break down into caramel when heated.

Sugar solution is a different matter.

Perhaps it's a question of terminology. I'm coming at this from a cook's perspective, not a chemist's.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: mattc on November 29, 2018, 02:28:41 pm
I'm not sure of the right terminology, but it may be that solid sugar does sublimation, not boiling*:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(phase_transition)

*Of course it's more complicated than that - and this is all physics, not chemistry IMHO!
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Greenbank on November 29, 2018, 02:42:34 pm
Quote from: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-melting-and-boiling-point-of-sugar
Sugar does not melt or boil, it decomposes. For sugar to have either it would have to retain its molecular formula which it does not. When it is heated it is carmelized.

Caramel has a boiling point, so that's probably what Alexa's answer was. More specifically, the answer to the question: If you heat sugar in a pan at what temperature does the stuff in the pan start to boil?

But the solid->liquid stage is not reversible if caramelisation has taken place. If you cool molten caramel down it does not become sugar again.

Another thing that confuses matters is that as sugar is a solid (at normal temperatures) asking "what is the boiling point of sugar?" is like asking "what is the boiling point of ice?" It kind of makes sense but jars slightly.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ElyDave on November 29, 2018, 02:47:55 pm
I'm not sure of the right terminology, but it may be that solid sugar does sublimation, not boiling*:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(phase_transition)

*Of course it's more complicated than that - and this is all physics, not chemistry IMHO!

It doesn't sublime, that is going straight from solid to gas, like CO2 (Dry Ice), it's a lot more complicated than that.

Apart from the descent into caramel, which then bubbles, if you have low enough moisture the sugar pyrolises and generates methanol as a byproduct, which is of course extremely flammable.  This is why sugar mills regularly go kaboom.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: mattc on November 29, 2018, 02:53:23 pm
I am very much liking the phrase

the descent into caramel

It should be a film title, or perhaps An Audax ...
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Torslanda on November 29, 2018, 03:20:36 pm
The descent into Caramel should follow the struggle to Kirkstone and be cherished fondantly...
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Torslanda on November 29, 2018, 03:21:48 pm
...and the climb must involve ganache-ing of gears.





I'll stop now
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ElyDave on November 29, 2018, 04:56:41 pm
But the finish is a sweet relief, almost the icing on the cake.

IGMC
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Kim on November 29, 2018, 05:05:46 pm
Now, leaving aside the fact that the question is nonsensical, since sugar doesn't have a boiling point as such, it really infuriated me that Alexa didn't specify the scale in her answer - I can't recall the exact figure quoted but I'm sure it must have been in Fahrenheit, which shouldn't be too surprising given that Alexa is Transpondian, but a) my old maths teacher would have given her a clout round the ear for such sloppiness, and b) it's the 21st feckin' century so use Celsius already. Anyway, I amused myself by imagining that Our Intrepid Baker guessed that Alexa was working in Kelvin and so put their sugar solution in the freezer to boil it...

Presumably Alexa allows the user to configure their preferred units, date formats, etc. like most other Babbage-engine user interfaces.

Also, if I was molishing an English-language TV advert for such a device, I might deliberately avoid specific units, so as to save half a second of expensive air time and avoid the need for different versions for different markets.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ian on November 29, 2018, 05:45:39 pm
Alexa lets you choose her temperature and distance units. I don't think she offers Kelvin or parsecs* though.

And yes, she should have said sucrose will melt/decompose (depending on the water content, moisture is how you get inversion, that's really the difference between making caramel and golden syrup).

*yes, yes, I know, but Han Solo is always going to be more right than you, so give it up.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ElyDave on November 29, 2018, 06:16:39 pm
Alexa lets you choose her temperature and distance units. I don't think she offers Kelvin or parsecs* though.

And yes, she should have said sucrose will melt/decompose (depending on the water content, moisture is how you get inversion, that's really the difference between making caramel and golden syrup).

*yes, yes, I know, but Han Solo is always going to be more right than you, so give it up.

invert sugar syrup also needs an acid to do the "inversion".  I'm not sure if golden syrup is inverted or not?
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ian on November 29, 2018, 06:20:38 pm
Golden syrup is partially inverted.

You don't strictly need acid (water will donate the protons), though it'll speed up the hydrolysis.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on November 29, 2018, 06:58:10 pm
Alexa lets you choose her temperature and distance units. I don't think she offers Kelvin or parsecs* though.

And yes, she should have said sucrose will melt/decompose (depending on the water content, moisture is how you get inversion, that's really the difference between making caramel and golden syrup).

*yes, yes, I know, but Han Solo is always going to be more right than you, so give it up.

invert sugar syrup also needs an acid to do the "inversion".  I'm not sure if golden syrup is inverted or not?

'Partially inverted refiners' syrup' if I recall the inscription on the Lyle's Golden Syrup correctly... ie a mixture of glucose, fructose & sucrose.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: citoyen on November 30, 2018, 07:34:46 am
*yes, yes, I know, but Han Solo is always going to be more right than you, so give it up.

“Han Solo is dead.” - Nietzsche
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ian on November 30, 2018, 09:39:13 am
Yes, and he's dead right.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 30, 2018, 09:55:47 am
Sugar is right, golden syrup is wrong, honey lives forever.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Greenbank on November 30, 2018, 10:57:10 am
Forgot to ask Alexa the question this morning to see what it says, will ask this evening when back home.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ElyDave on December 01, 2018, 06:47:12 am
Siri was surprisingly correct on this, vs it's usual ability to understand English

It directed me to a site that quite correctly pointed out that sugar does not boild but decomposes and caremelises, and refers to varying boiling point of syrups.

I may be being lulled into a false sense of security with Siri, heading for another disappointment
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: phantasmagoriana on December 01, 2018, 07:08:52 am
Anyone who watched the last series of Bake Off will have seen the little Amazon Alexa ads that bookended each commercial break. One of them had Our Intrepid Baker asking "Alexa, what's the boiling point of sugar?" to which Alexa replies "The boiling point of sugar is XXX degrees."

Now, leaving aside the fact that the question is nonsensical, since sugar doesn't have a boiling point as such, it really infuriated me that Alexa didn't specify the scale in her answer - I can't recall the exact figure quoted but I'm sure it must have been in Fahrenheit, which shouldn't be too surprising given that Alexa is Transpondian, but a) my old maths teacher would have given her a clout round the ear for such sloppiness, and b) it's the 21st feckin' century so use Celsius already. Anyway, I amused myself by imagining that Our Intrepid Baker guessed that Alexa was working in Kelvin and so put their sugar solution in the freezer to boil it...

I just tried this - Alexa told me it was 160° Celsius.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Pingu on January 08, 2019, 07:28:27 pm
‘Super-Earth’ among trio of planets and six supernovae detected by Tess mission (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jan/08/nasa-spacecraft-planet-earth-tess-mission)

Quote
Three new planets and six supernovae outside our solar system have been observed by Nasa’s planet-hunting Tess mission in its first three months.

Well TFFT  ::-)
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Pingu on January 25, 2019, 10:08:35 pm
BBC science (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47000888) bitches.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7923/46875543641_c1b42faec1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eqeq1i)
bbc_science (https://flic.kr/p/2eqeq1i) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: hellymedic on February 20, 2019, 04:36:33 pm
Since when was it 25 years from 1984 to 2018?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-47309945 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-47309945)
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: ElyDave on February 20, 2019, 07:31:19 pm
even 1998 when he was released to 2018 isn't 25 years
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Guy on March 04, 2019, 03:19:59 pm
The Daily Hate online has a picture article about WW2 fortifications. One of the captions starts

Quote
These two pictures show parts of a 1km (1.5 mile)-long anti-tank wall..

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Tim Hall on March 07, 2019, 12:24:22 pm
My own fault I guess for listening to "You and Your Things and Your Paranoia Yours".  However, they're just running an article about John Lewis and the bonus being paid this year. Apparently it's the lowest since 1953 at "Just 3%", while in the past it's been up as high   "as 20%".  3% of what wasn't disclosed though.  Gah.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: jsabine on March 07, 2019, 01:26:46 pm
3% of the recipient's annual salary.

They were clear enough about that on the news earlier, so maybe they just assume that anyone listening to Y&Y has had the Home Service on all day and will have absorbed these facts by osmosis.
Title: Re: Arithmetic that makes you cringe
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 11, 2019, 10:16:38 am
Bataan regularly delivered; all four of his first five albums – Subway Joe (1968), Riot (1968), Poor Boy (1969) and Mr New York and The East Side Kids (1971) – were unambiguously about El Barrio, carrying images of the ghetto or everyday street life in New York.