Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: mattc on January 13, 2015, 06:01:51 pm

Title: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on January 13, 2015, 06:01:51 pm
I may be relatively inept,  but I doubt I'm the only audaxer who knows almost nothing about the practicalities of Toobless. Is it worth putting a basic guide together for the benefit of hosts and/or lunch dates?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Wobbly on January 13, 2015, 06:04:54 pm
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 13, 2015, 07:06:24 pm
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.

Temporary fix by putting a tube in if the sealant won't.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Euan Uzami on January 13, 2015, 08:22:18 pm
If you need to (re) seat the bead for any reason you need to blast air in fairly fast. Some say you need an air compressor but you can achieve it by taking the valve core out, then giving a few blasts with a track pump. You will know when the bead seats. When you take it off all the air will escape rapidly, but the bead will be seated by then and should stay so. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: andyoxon on January 13, 2015, 08:22:29 pm
This is quite useful  - Stan's Notubes http://www.notubes.com/help/index.aspx
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ivan on January 13, 2015, 10:50:15 pm
If you need to (re) seat the bead for any reason you need to blast air in fairly fast. Some say you need an air compressor but you can achieve it by taking the valve core out, then giving a few blasts with a track pump. You will know when the bead seats. When you take it off all the air will escape rapidly, but the bead will be seated by then and should stay so.

Also, the soapy water as recommended by Stan's, etc., is there to help the bead slip into place, which I didn't really realise initially. You can also tell the bead is seated properly by spinning the wheel and there should be no 'low spots'. Going up to the max recommended pressure can help.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: andrew_s on January 14, 2015, 01:36:52 am
If you need to (re) seat the bead for any reason you need to blast air in fairly fast. Some say you need an air compressor
I've always assumed, as a non-user, that a CO2 cylinder would be best for a quick blast.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: thing1 on January 14, 2015, 01:41:00 am
My tips for hosts preparing for stop-gap repairs/replacements:


Some other tips from a colleague, mostly targeted to new installs rather the running repairs, but maybe useful to someone:


I've also had one colleague mention Schwalbe One (as Steve is using) work great to a point but then reliability went off a steep cliff. If Steve is reporting multiple flats in a day, a complete tyre replacement maybe due. If he / you don't have tubeless on hand, any good quality clincher, 23 or 25 or whatever he prefers, should work fine on the Stans rims (maybe with a tiny bit of swearing to installed) to get back home.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Euan Uzami on January 14, 2015, 01:45:50 am
If you need to (re) seat the bead for any reason you need to blast air in fairly fast. Some say you need an air compressor
I've always assumed, as a non-user, that a CO2 cylinder would be best for a quick blast.
That works as well,  but it uses it up though and you'd have to buy another one.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Banjo on January 14, 2015, 08:38:55 am
Seems like a lot of faff to me.especially if you still need to carry a spare tube on the road.

They are obviously good or Steve wouldnt be using them.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on January 14, 2015, 08:42:38 am
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.

Temporary fix by putting a tube in if the sealant won't.
Thanks.

Will an ordinary 700x25 (or 23) Presta be a good fit?

Could I do this with just my standard tyre levers, pump, hands and brain,  treating it like a clincher?


[Rest of replies: TL; DR;  for this context !]
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on January 14, 2015, 08:43:59 am
What should this Dummy do if Steve arrived with damaged/split outer, not likely to last (say) another 100 miles?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 14, 2015, 08:55:08 am
Seems like a lot of faff to me.especially if you still need to carry a spare tube on the road.

They are obviously good or Steve wouldnt be using them.

Maybe, but they would have kept me mobile last month - I hit a small pothole, and was dismayed to get a pinch flat - classic snakebite when I got the tube out later. But that was precipitated by low pressure due to a hawthorn thorn puncture - so slow I could barely find it on the tube, and I hadn't noticed whilst riding. With tubeless I wouldn't have got the first puncture (well it would have sealed) and of course the second would have been academic in two ways!

There are undoubtedly pros and cons, but the vast majority of my not infrequent punctures have been due to thorns or very small flints (this being the Chilterns) and the vast majority, if not all, would have sealed sufficiently to get me home with no noticeably issues or (on a very cold February day last year) calling for home rescue as I just couldn't manhandle the Gatorskins roadside.

I shall soon see if I have to eat my words, as I'm going to try and convert my Equlibrium disc to tubeless using the stock Askium One wheels....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 14, 2015, 08:57:07 am
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.

Temporary fix by putting a tube in if the sealant won't.
Thanks.

Will an ordinary 700x25 (or 23) Presta be a good fit?

Could I do this with just my standard tyre levers, pump, hands and brain,  treating it like a clincher?


See replies above - skinnier than normal tube recommended. With a tube repair normal tools should be ok.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 14, 2015, 09:23:03 am
Steve has a spare tyre with him.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on January 14, 2015, 10:01:52 am
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.

Temporary fix by putting a tube in if the sealant won't.
Thanks.

Will an ordinary 700x25 (or 23) Presta be a good fit?

Could I do this with just my standard tyre levers, pump, hands and brain,  treating it like a clincher?


[Rest of replies: TL; DR;  for this context !]

Yes, at least that's what I  do with tubeless mtb tyres. Don't think that road ones would be markedly different!

What should this Dummy do if Steve arrived with damaged/split outer, not likely to last (say) another 100 miles?

Give him a new tyre! Although I see below that he carries a spare!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ivan on January 14, 2015, 11:51:35 am
My findings on repair/replacements:
  • One thing I found is the first time I came to replace my tubeless tyre after the new wheel build  (and I guess Steve's wheels are new builds too) is that it was way harder to seat the tyre bead than when the wheel was first built. Air kept escaping around the tyre. Even using a compressor or CO2 didn't help. In the end,  an additional layer of stan's yellow tape was needed right around the rim: the original single layer worked fine for the first install, but then deformed enough at the spoke holes that it was letting too much air escape "around" the tyre bead an never getting a good seal. Once the second layer was added, it just popped right on with a basic pump.
The Stan's installation guide calls for two layers of tape on their road rims by default...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on January 14, 2015, 12:26:37 pm
...
I've also had one colleague mention Schwalbe One (as Steve is using) work great to a point but then reliability went off a steep cliff. If Steve is reporting multiple flats in a day, a complete tyre replacement maybe due. If he / you don't have tubeless on hand, any good quality clincher, 23 or 25 or whatever he prefers, should work fine on the Stans rims (maybe with a tiny bit of swearing to installed) to get back home.

I'd be very interested to know if Schwalbe have indicated an expected lifespan (barring major gashes), or proposed a replacement interval, to Steve.
Or what Steve's experience is over the course of the year - is the team tracking how many miles on each bike/each set of tyres?    Not saying they should, just askin', like.

ATEOTD Schwalbe's motivation is presumably to get more of us buying these things, and I'm prepared to be "sold" if there is evidence to justify the greater up-front cost.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 14, 2015, 12:30:15 pm
ATEOTD Schwalbe's motivation is presumably to get more of us buying these things, and I'm prepared to be "sold" if there is evidence to justify the greater up-front cost.

Depending on what you're comparing them too, they can be had for around €33 each from German sellers right now.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 14, 2015, 12:35:17 pm
Schwalbe are providing tyres on the basis of X,000km for rear and 2 x X,000km for front. I can't remember what X is, at the moment.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: GrahamG on January 14, 2015, 12:47:56 pm
I've been tubeless since the summer but not done anywhere near the mileage to be able to judge properly, but a couple of small punctures appear to have been sealed by the solution judging by a couple of white spots. The ultremo zx tubeless tyres I tried first were amazing, so expect the new One tyres just ordered will be broadly similar. In terms of cost, I've had to order from German retailers to get them at an acceptable price for me (i.e. close to £30 a pop), as I think I'd just go back to tubes if I had to pay the £50-60 per tyre that many uk retailers are selling at. Hopefully they'll get cheaper, although I accept that with carbon beads they're unlikely to ever get to the same price point as regular folding clinchers.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on January 14, 2015, 05:49:54 pm
ATEOTD Schwalbe's motivation is presumably to get more of us buying these things, and I'm prepared to be "sold" if there is evidence to justify the greater up-front cost.

Depending on what you're comparing them too, they can be had for around €33 each from German sellers right now.

I costed out all I needed for switching to tubeless on a couple of German websites and with rim tape, valves, sealant, sealant syringe, fitting solution (the last two perhaps not strictly necessary but would make the first time experience easier?)   and with two tyres @ €33 the total was nearly €120

compared with Schwalbe Duranos @ €24 ea on one of those same sites.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all anti, in a way I'm quite keen to change despite the extra cost... but my question was not so much about the cost so much as the "payback" period, or rather how many km without visitations.   If the "falling off a cliff" that was referred to earlier happens at 2000 - 3000km then it's not worth it to my mind.   The Duranos are good for at least 5000km with only very occasional visitations.

Interesting that Schwalbe are providing twice as many tyres for the front.... I know it is more 'critical' but I wear rear tyres down much more quickly.
Still - when we can find X.....
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on January 14, 2015, 06:05:08 pm
I have not been very clear. Schwalbe are expecting rear tyres to wear out twice as fast as front tyres for X kilometres total distance.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: loadsabikes on January 14, 2015, 06:29:45 pm
It was perfectly clear.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: thing1 on January 14, 2015, 07:10:01 pm
The Stan's installation guide calls for two layers of tape on their road rims by default...

Yep I'll definitely do that next time. The guide I was following (on youtube maybe. it was specifically targeted to my SL23 rims anyway) only used one. I think they argued this way makes installation (first time) easier.

Hopefully Steve is using two layers.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 14, 2015, 07:56:24 pm
My hutchinson rear tubeless ran for 6000 miles, my front is still going at 8000 miles. I am running 28s though.  One slow puncture on rear after I let sealant dry out. When I say slow I mean that the pressure dropped low enough that I needed to pump it up every third day till I fixed at weekend.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on January 14, 2015, 08:47:18 pm
The hutchinson ones are nearly £50 each though (from what bikey-mikey told me)  ?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 14, 2015, 08:56:47 pm
The hutchinson ones are nearly £50 each though (from what bikey-mikey told me)  ?

50 euro at Bike24, so a premium over the Schwalbe One
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Octave on January 14, 2015, 09:07:32 pm
I find Acycles do good prices http://www.acycles.co.uk/hutchinson-intensive-2-road-tubeless-tyre-700x25-black-9229.html

I switched to tubeless three years ago and have had only one puncture, the tyre was cut across the full width of the tread by glass and even then it deflated slow enough to stop safely.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 14, 2015, 10:56:25 pm
Yep I get mine from Acycles and they've offered me free postage twice which I've taken advantage of. I've got Schwalbe One tubeless waiting for when I replace tyres come Spring time or so.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 15, 2015, 07:27:04 am
How often do those running tubeless top up (I assume they don't drain the existing) sealant?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 15, 2015, 10:25:32 pm
Every 3 months or so to top up, once past my initial period of doing nothing at all.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Cycling Daddy on January 16, 2015, 07:01:04 am
I think Steve was very clear he wanted tubeless form the outset. 

I am half way through swapping to tubeless since my bike came with Arch Ex Stans rims.  There seem to be some clear benefits in terms of puncture resistance.  However it is much harder getting tyres on and off these rims (even using Var tyre levers).  This seems to be because it is trickier to get the tyre to sit in the valley. It is a job that needs time and patience.

You can carry a tube for repairs but there are also repair kits where you do not demount the tyre but stuff and insert a rubber bung into the hole : never used in anger but supposed to work.  That would cope with anything other than a major gash/slash. 
+ 1 for Schwalbe One  +1 for initial inflate with CO2 but a strong blast with a track pump works on mine as well. 

Les
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 16, 2015, 07:22:00 am

This seems to be because it is trickier to get the tyre to sit in the valley. It is a job that needs time and patience.


I think this is more to do with the internal rim profile needing to be shallow to help get the bead to seat more easily initially - hence the need for 2 or 3 layers of tape on non-tubeless ready rims when converting them.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 16, 2015, 06:26:29 pm
The rubber bungs work, mind only had to use once snce 2006.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Cycling Daddy on January 16, 2015, 06:55:55 pm
The rubber bungs work, mind only had to use once snce 2006.
Might be worth checking Steve has some?  Much quicker than a tyre off and on.  1 use in 8 years that is impressive
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bryn on January 16, 2015, 10:39:46 pm
It will be interesting to hear more about today's slashed tyre.  Repaired or replaced?  How caused?

Bryn
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Cycling Daddy on January 17, 2015, 06:10:23 am
My understanding is that tubeless work better with punctures...up to  point but if you slash the tyre (I have heard an example of going over a bottle end) they will fail just like a normal clincher would.  Having the spare tyre paid dividends maybe I should think about that.
Les
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 18, 2015, 12:59:48 pm
A question for those who "converted" standard rims to tubeless. What, if anything did you use to seal the valve to the rim tape with? I've just taped up a Mavic Askium One, 2 layers of packing tape over the original Mavic vinyl tape. I made a small cross cut through the tape to install the valve, and used CO2 to get the bead seated - a track pump wouldn't do the initial expansion quick enough.  Seated the bead, deflated the tyre, added sealant, re inflated (with track pump) only to have a leak around the valve stem as evidenced by bubbles from the soapy water Id used to aid installation and bead seating. I've used pliers to tighten the valve stem nut, added extra sealant and "bounced" the tyre to splash it about around the valve area, and seem to have slowed the loss of air (it dropped from 6 to 2 bar overnight before I added extra sealant this morning). It may just be a case of letting the valve seat bed in to the tape until all flexibility has gone, but something to give an initial seal would help - and I need to be able to remove the valve roadside to use a spare tube in emergencies, so an overnight valve stem nut isn't desirable - I was thinking maybe Vaseline, or a non setting mastic? 


Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Cycling Daddy on January 18, 2015, 07:06:28 pm
A question for those who "converted" standard rims to tubeless. What, if anything did you use to seal the valve to the rim tape with? I've just taped up a Mavic Askium One, 2 layers of packing tape over the original Mavic vinyl tape. I made a small cross cut through the tape to install the valve, and used CO2 to get the bead seated - a track pump wouldn't do the initial expansion quick enough.  Seated the bead, deflated the tyre, added sealant, re inflated (with track pump) only to have a leak around the valve stem as evidenced by bubbles from the soapy water Id used to aid installation and bead seating. I've used pliers to tighten the valve stem nut, added extra sealant and "bounced" the tyre to splash it about around the valve area, and seem to have slowed the loss of air (it dropped from 6 to 2 bar overnight before I added extra sealant this morning). It may just be a case of letting the valve seat bed in to the tape until all flexibility has gone, but something to give an initial seal would help - and I need to be able to remove the valve roadside to use a spare tube in emergencies, so an overnight valve stem nut isn't desirable - I was thinking maybe Vaseline, or a non setting mastic?
This happened to me with tubeless rims.  I did much as you.  It is important not t pull the valve too hard they can pull through apparently.  It can be the seating of the valve onto the rim tape but it can be a leak through the tape elsewhere (apparently).  what tape were you using?  What pressure are you pumping to?

As a consolation after a day or so my 'leak' settled and now the rear wheel has held air effectively for a couple of months with no more topping up than might in any case be expected. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 18, 2015, 09:06:01 pm
Valve should be fine just hand tight. A small slit in tape is all that's needed then rubber on valve that sits inside rim should seal the rest.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on January 22, 2015, 04:30:26 pm
A question for those who "converted" standard rims to tubeless. What, if anything did you use to seal the valve to the rim tape with? I've just taped up a Mavic Askium One, 2 layers of packing tape over the original Mavic vinyl tape. I made a small cross cut through the tape to install the valve, and used CO2 to get the bead seated - a track pump wouldn't do the initial expansion quick enough.  Seated the bead, deflated the tyre, added sealant, re inflated (with track pump) only to have a leak around the valve stem as evidenced by bubbles from the soapy water Id used to aid installation and bead seating. I've used pliers to tighten the valve stem nut, added extra sealant and "bounced" the tyre to splash it about around the valve area, and seem to have slowed the loss of air (it dropped from 6 to 2 bar overnight before I added extra sealant this morning). It may just be a case of letting the valve seat bed in to the tape until all flexibility has gone, but something to give an initial seal would help - and I need to be able to remove the valve roadside to use a spare tube in emergencies, so an overnight valve stem nut isn't desirable - I was thinking maybe Vaseline, or a non setting mastic?


I had this first time I tried and it turned out to be a tape leak and not the valve. Switched to Stan's tape on a clean rim and all is fine. Very slow pressure loss without sealant. A few weeks rideability with.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Otto on January 22, 2015, 04:44:31 pm
I'm confused I 'm guessing that tubeless now is something completely different from the 'Tubs' I had to cement onto my rims 30 years ago?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on January 22, 2015, 04:46:27 pm
A question for those who "converted" standard rims to tubeless. What, if anything did you use to seal the valve to the rim tape with? I've just taped up a Mavic Askium One, 2 layers of packing tape over the original Mavic vinyl tape. I made a small cross cut through the tape to install the valve, and used CO2 to get the bead seated - a track pump wouldn't do the initial expansion quick enough.  Seated the bead, deflated the tyre, added sealant, re inflated (with track pump) only to have a leak around the valve stem as evidenced by bubbles from the soapy water Id used to aid installation and bead seating. I've used pliers to tighten the valve stem nut, added extra sealant and "bounced" the tyre to splash it about around the valve area, and seem to have slowed the loss of air (it dropped from 6 to 2 bar overnight before I added extra sealant this morning). It may just be a case of letting the valve seat bed in to the tape until all flexibility has gone, but something to give an initial seal would help - and I need to be able to remove the valve roadside to use a spare tube in emergencies, so an overnight valve stem nut isn't desirable - I was thinking maybe Vaseline, or a non setting mastic? 




I've used both a Stan's rim strip which is a heavy duty rim strip with integrated valve and 'Gorilla' tape. Gorilla tape was a little more faff to set up but worked as well as the rim strip.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on January 22, 2015, 04:50:42 pm
I'm confused I 'm guessing that tubeless now is something completely different from the 'Tubs' I had to cement onto my rims 30 years ago?

Yes, tubeless essentially does away with an inner tube. The Stan's rim strip, Gorilla Tape etc. are used to seal the spoke holes to prevent air loss. I don't know how it is for road set ups but on a MTB I use a standard tyre and a latex solution/suspension in the tyre that initially seals any holes in the tyre (some sidewalls can be quite porous) and then serves to plug any holes caused by thorns etc..
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Otto on January 22, 2015, 05:03:12 pm
I'm confused I 'm guessing that tubeless now is something completely different from the 'Tubs' I had to cement onto my rims 30 years ago?

Yes, tubeless essentially does away with an inner tube. The Stan's rim strip, Gorilla Tape etc. are used to seal the spoke holes to prevent air loss. I don't know how it is for road set ups but on a MTB I use a standard tyre and a latex solution/suspension in the tyre that initially seals any holes in the tyre (some sidewalls can be quite porous) and then serves to plug any holes caused by thorns etc..

All is clear ... thank you
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on January 22, 2015, 06:00:45 pm
You're welcome :)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Cycling Daddy on January 23, 2015, 05:24:08 am
There are advantages.  Yesterday my rear tubeless flatted.  I refilled with CO2, spun the wheel a few times and continued on my way.  About 3 minutes in total
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Climberruss on January 23, 2015, 06:47:47 am
There are advantages.  Yesterday my rear tubeless flatted.  I refilled with CO2, spun the wheel a few times and continued on my way.  About 3 minutes in total

It's not all plain sailing though. I had a piece of glass through mine, it created a rather large slit. It sealed eventually, but I was messing around with it for well over half an hour. Also, our own TG reported about 10 days ago that he'd "slit" the tyre. He wasted a good half an hour changing the tyre.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on January 23, 2015, 06:59:18 am
Certainly for mtb's tyres the weldtite tubeless repair kit works very well for holes too big for the sealant to fix. Actually faster than putting in a new inner tube
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Mr Larrington on January 23, 2015, 07:03:22 am
Was Stephen King talking through his hat when he wrote of tubeless bike tyres being available in 1958?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 26, 2015, 07:12:58 pm
Talking through his  presta valve I suspect, but happy to be proved wrong.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on March 09, 2015, 01:18:21 pm
I've been using Hutchinson Intensive 25s for over three years now. Mounted on Stans No Tubes ALPHA 340 rims - these rims, with your choice of hubs n spokes, make for some seriously light wheels.

Most of you know my mileages, but in case you don't I did 33,300 kilometres nominal in Audax events last season, but including over-distances on calendar events, and even a few non Audax journeys, you could call it 35,000 kms. Previous two years each around 25,000 kms.  So that's over 85,000 kms on tubeless.

Problems?

Once I had a split in the rear tyre that was too bad to repair with an inner tube and tyre boot, but that was my fault entirely because, as the bike shop diplomatically pointed out, I had worn right through to the carcass, and it split right along the middle in the rolling direction for over two inches..... (several other areas of carcass were visible elsewhere but not yet split....)

Recently on my 'spare' bike I had gradually reducing pressure and had to stop to pump back up three times, each time getting about 13 kms more before repumping. Then I gave up and put in an inner tube, which solved it.  This was also my fault entirely because I had switched to the spare bike very late in the previous day, (main bike crank to pedal interface had come loose betwixt carbon crank and metal insert), and I forgot to top up sealant levels in the spare's tyres (which had not been used for nearly a year.....)  it seemed obvious with hindsight that without sealant a tiny hole didn't seal, hence slow pressure loss.  Once back home, I inserted sealant and reinflated, which sealed the tiny hole right away - I just rechecked and fifteen days later the tyre is still more or less at riding pressure....

Apart from those two I did 85,000 kilometres without having to stop by the road to attend to tyres....

Read that again!!

Yes I pay £50 per tyre, but how many inner tubes would you buy / use over 85,000 kms ?? (At what cost?)

Fitting clincher tyres to Stans Alpha 340 tubeless rims in emergencies ?

I carry a Continental GP Supersonic Folding Tyre in 23 mm, just in case, and I tested fitting it this morning on my Alpha 340 wheel that the trailer rolls on, mainly choosing this as a test wheel because it's not been used for at least two years, so I knew the sealant would be gone (it's messy when you change, when it's actually wet...). I have very weak hands, following from my accident BUT I was able to mount this 23 mm brand new folding tyre onto the 340 rim, complete with a lightweight inner tube, in eleven minutes, WITHOUT NEEDING TO USE TYRE LEVERS. Just using my thumbs and fingers.  (Little weak me fitting tyres without levers!!). There is a small 'trick' whereby you pinch both sides of the tyre together, so it goes into the rim well on the opposite side to where you are trying to push the last bit of the tyre over the rim, and this gives you maybe an extra centimetre or so less stretching to do.

Go tubeless  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: T42 on June 21, 2015, 10:21:57 am
I've been using Hutchinson Intensive 25s for over three years now. Mounted on Stans No Tubes ALPHA 340 rims - these rims, with your choice of hubs n spokes, make for some seriously light wheels.
....
Yes I pay £50 per tyre, but how many inner tubes would you buy / use over 85,000 kms ?? (At what cost?)
...

Hutchinson Intensive 25s are on XXCycle.fr at 39.90 €
Conti GP4000s II 25s are at 33.90 €

Difference = about 1.5 tubes.

Sounds good.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 22, 2015, 01:56:29 pm
I've been using Hutchinson Intensive 25s for over three years now. Mounted on Stans No Tubes ALPHA 340 rims - these rims, with your choice of hubs n spokes, make for some seriously light wheels.

Most of you know my mileages, but in case you don't I did 33,300 kilometres nominal in Audax events last season, but including over-distances on calendar events, and even a few non Audax journeys, you could call it 35,000 kms. Previous two years each around 25,000 kms.  So that's over 85,000 kms on tubeless.

How many miles/km do you think you get out of a rear tyre?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on June 22, 2015, 04:22:53 pm
I've been using Hutchinson Intensive 25s for over three years now. Mounted on Stans No Tubes ALPHA 340 rims - these rims, with your choice of hubs n spokes, make for some seriously light wheels.

Most of you know my mileages, but in case you don't I did 33,300 kilometres nominal in Audax events last season, but including over-distances on calendar events, and even a few non Audax journeys, you could call it 35,000 kms. Previous two years each around 25,000 kms.  So that's over 85,000 kms on tubeless.

How many miles/km do you think you get out of a rear tyre?

Can't say really - Ido such high mike ages and I can never remember when the tyres were fitted....

I know that sounds like an excuse, but it's a brain injury / memory problem

I've now moved on to Hutchinsons Sector 28 tubeless, ans have done five successive 600s on them, and St the bike shop on Thursday they were pronounced as lightly worn!!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 22, 2015, 07:32:17 pm
Fairy nuff. Sounds like you are getting about 6000km or more, then. That's good, very very good for a light fast tyre.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hing on July 18, 2015, 04:22:54 am


Hutchinson Intensive 25s are on XXCycle.fr at 39.90 €
Conti GP4000s II 25s are at 33.90 €

Difference = about 1.5 tubes.

Sounds good.

Schwalbe One tubeless from bike-discount.de at ~€30
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on July 21, 2015, 09:10:56 pm
What pressure do people run tubeless tyres at?  I've done some searches and, surprisingly, don't find much on this.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: postrestant on July 21, 2015, 10:49:32 pm
80 / 70 typically. Last week I'd a sealed puncture (i.e. I hadn't realised I'd had a puncture which had bled air and then sealed) and went out with 50 psi in the rear -- it was very comfy and didn't seem obviously slower. Tyres are 28mm Schwalbe Ones.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on July 22, 2015, 08:11:37 am
85 psi Hurchinson Sector 28 tubeless

Fast n comfy
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on July 22, 2015, 08:21:25 am
Would be useful to know approx rider weights - BM, I thought you weighed about as much as a damp paper bag, so 85psi surprises me a bit given I'm only running about 90, 95psi on 25mm Krylions (tubed) and am 80, 85ish kg.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on July 22, 2015, 10:07:12 am
What pressure do people run tubeless tyres at?  I've done some searches and, surprisingly, don't find much on this.

Currently running Schwalbe One 28 tubeless at 75/80psi (or 5/5.5 bar)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on July 22, 2015, 11:22:14 am
Schwalbe One Tubeless - 28mm 80/65 psi 85kgs rider 8.4kgs bike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on July 22, 2015, 11:33:49 am
Hutchinson Sector 28s - 72.5 front, 80 rear, and I weigh 65kg.
They've done 5,700km so far and don't appear to be very worn when comparing them to the new pair I have for when they do.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on July 22, 2015, 04:21:19 pm
Interesting, thanks

Mine are Schwalbe One / 25mm. 
I'm 11st / 70kg

The chap who built my wheels suggested 65-70 front and 70-75 rear.  I thought that wasn't very much and have been running them at 80/90.  But when I did searches I started reading things about wheels coming off the rim ( :o !), so thought I'd see what others were doing.  It looks like I'm in the same general range as most people.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on July 22, 2015, 11:49:33 pm
70 front, 80 rear, sectir 28mm. I'm about 73kg at the mo.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on July 23, 2015, 12:15:50 am
I'm around 62 kgs

Sector 28s...

Have been running 85 psi since inception about 8000 Km's ago..

They hardly lose any pressure, maybe half a dozen strokes of a floor pump after three or four days standing....

Some of the above answers tempt me to try lower though.... But I'm worried that over a protracted event, e.g. from Paris to somewhere west and back, I might lose too much..

How are those lower pressures standing up post ride??

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on July 23, 2015, 01:28:25 am
I'm around 62 kgs

Sector 28s...

Have been running 85 psi since inception about 8000 Km's ago..

They hardly lose any pressure, maybe half a dozen strokes of a floor pump after three or four days standing....

Some of the above answers tempt me to try lower though.... But I'm worried that over a protracted event, e.g. from Paris to somewhere west and back, I might lose too much..

How are those lower pressures standing up post ride??

Mine have settled and dont see, to lose much now. Even after aweek, when there is a measurable loss of pressure, I would still be confident riding them.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on July 23, 2015, 01:53:18 am
So, um, Schwalbe Ones, or Sector 28s?

Can find both for under €40, which seems reasonable enough, albeit postage bumps it up a little.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on July 23, 2015, 01:58:17 am
So, um, Schwalbe Ones, or Sector 28s?

Can find both for under €40, which seems reasonable enough, albeit postage bumps it up a little.

Not sure who's tried both. I've only ridden the Schwalbes, and they're fine and dandy. Others may offer similar views on the Sectors.

Perhaps it's second order and unimportant, so the web will have variety of answers to choose from;)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on July 23, 2015, 07:53:56 am
I'm around 62 kgs

Sector 28s...

Have been running 85 psi since inception about 8000 Km's ago..

They hardly lose any pressure, maybe half a dozen strokes of a floor pump after three or four days standing....

Some of the above answers tempt me to try lower though.... But I'm worried that over a protracted event, e.g. from Paris to somewhere west and back, I might lose too much..

How are those lower pressures standing up post ride??

What do you find the (esp. wet) grip of Hutchinsons like?


Any diff between sector and intensive other than 25/28 - any particular reason to switch?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on July 23, 2015, 08:06:01 am
I'm worried that over a protracted event, e.g. from Paris to somewhere west and back, I might lose too much..

You'll be able to find a track pump at the controls.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on July 23, 2015, 08:46:16 pm
I'm around 62 kgs

Sector 28s...

Have been running 85 psi since inception about 8000 Km's ago..

They hardly lose any pressure, maybe half a dozen strokes of a floor pump after three or four days standing....

Some of the above answers tempt me to try lower though.... But I'm worried that over a protracted event, e.g. from Paris to somewhere west and back, I might lose too much..

How are those lower pressures standing up post ride??

What do you find the (esp. wet) grip of Hutchinsons like?


Any diff between sector and intensive other than 25/28 - any particular reason to switch?

Sector 28 are fine in the wet (once the initial mold removal layer has gone)

I switched to them after I lost my front wheel on a very steep downhill harepin on the Brevet Cymru, whilst riding Intensive 25...

The sector 28 has a central section that flattens down as you ride and is more or less a slick, but as you lean there is a 'stippled' area on each side which I think gives more grip...

TBH Ben, I'm a bit of a wet road wimp at the moment, so my opinions are based on very conservative riding, but hopefully someone will be able to tell from a more aggressive background!!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on July 23, 2015, 11:51:37 pm
Yeah, I'm quite a bit less confident than I was especially on wet descents since I came off on a wet descent in the alps.... I wouldn't blame the tyres completely, I was probably going too fast for the conditions, but I have also noticed on those short little steep inclines that you can power up standing up I've noticed wheel spinning when it's muddy on intensives whereas I never have with other tyres.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on July 24, 2015, 11:10:24 pm
So, um, Schwalbe Ones, or Sector 28s?

Can find both for under €40, which seems reasonable enough, albeit postage bumps it up a little.

Not sure who's tried both. I've only ridden the Schwalbes, and they're fine and dandy. Others may offer similar views on the Sectors.

I only went with Schwalbes because I've never had a bad experience with any of their other models (but have no experience of Hutchinson)
OTH i went for Stan's valves (stainless) rahter than Schwalbe (Aluminium) ones.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on July 25, 2015, 01:13:21 am
So, um, Schwalbe Ones, or Sector 28s?

Can find both for under €40, which seems reasonable enough, albeit postage bumps it up a little.

Not sure who's tried both. I've only ridden the Schwalbes, and they're fine and dandy. Others may offer similar views on the Sectors.

I only went with Schwalbes because I've never had a bad experience with any of their other models (but have no experience of Hutchinson)
OTH i went for Stan's valves (stainless) rahter than Schwalbe (Aluminium) ones.

I'm inclined to go for the Schwalbes because of Steve's use of them, but the Hutchinsons are c100g lighter per tyre ...

Last time I used Hutchinsons I came to dislike them because of poor grip in the wet: though that was c1998, I hold grudges.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 25, 2015, 01:30:17 am
Hutchies were absolute crap in the 80s and 90s. They'll never get another cent from me, regardless of what they are like now. There is a pair of Ones at home waiting to go on a bike.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on July 27, 2015, 09:20:50 am
Right, I've been running my Schwalbe One tubeless for around 6 months now. Is it time to refresh the sealant? And does one just add more through the valve, or should one dismount the tyre and remove the (residue of) the old?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on July 27, 2015, 10:41:01 am
Right, I've been running my Schwalbe One tubeless for around 6 months now. Is it time to refresh the sealant? And does one just add more through the valve, or should one dismount the tyre and remove the (residue of) the old?

The sealant stays liquid, and when you get a puncture it is expelled through the hole, turning solid as its temperature drops. A while ago in my early days of tubeless, my LBS changed a worn out tyre, and as they were also in the learning stage, they cut off a quarter of the old tyre and counted the tiny 'plugs' where the tyre had been penetrated and the liquid had sealed the hole. There were about SEVEN plugs, amazingly, in a quarter of a tyre. I imagine they chose the section of tyre that looked to have the most, but even so that's clearly a lot. And even if the other sections of the tyre had less, it's clear that LOTS of penetrations had self sealed, unnoticed by me.  Each time this happens you ride on, but you lose some air and some sealant....

So if you have had a few 'unnoticed', you will also have lost liquid.

Also every time you pump more air into the tyre there is likely to be some sealant around the valve.  When the valve opens as the pump pressure exceeds the tyre pressure you obviously get a flow of air into the tyre, but that agitates the liquid and some becomes gaseous, and then when your pump stroke finishes some of that mixture leaks back through the open valve into the pump. When you eventually disconnect the pump you get a tiny hiss as the higher pressure within the pump tube escapes, and in that 'hiss' there is usually a tiny amount of vaporised sealant. So you lose tiny amounts of sealant just about every time you pump up the tyre.  (So it's good practice to set the valves on both wheels to the top when you 'park' the bike, to allow the fluid to drain away to the bottom of the tyre....)

Definitely time for more sealant after six months, I should say. Tyre might well be dry now....

I have a syringe bought from Stans No Tubes that allows you to put in more sealant provided you first remove the valve core, but you lose all the air, and you then have to reinflate the tyre, which is easy if it's sealed itself to the rim, but can be an issue if it pops off the rim and you have no compressor...

If it's sealed itself to the rim then no need to dismount.  If the tyre pops off the rim, then remove it and scrape out the old solid stringy bits that had formed the seal.  These stringy bits are no use once you break the seal.... After you put in new fluid and reinflate quite a bit of the fluid escapes around the tyre/rim, hardening and sealing as it goes, and that's the basis of the stringy stuff you find the NEXT time you take off the tyre....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on July 27, 2015, 11:13:46 am
Thanks B-M  :thumbsup:  I've the small bottle (50ml) with a pointed spout, so a half-full one of those through the valve core (assuming the bead stays seated).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Vs4b on July 28, 2015, 04:19:25 pm
Idiot question... is it easy/possible to convert a "normal" rim to run tubeless (CXP33 and OpenPro if that matters)?? I was thinking you could with some special tape, a valve and a tubeless wheel but my LBS said that it wasn't possible. It is quite likely that they don't know they are talking about...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: SoreTween on July 28, 2015, 04:33:29 pm
Yes. (http://road.cc/content/review/158572-slime-pro-tubeless-ready-kit)  No experience of, found that review tempting me though.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Mr Larrington on July 28, 2015, 06:22:19 pm
Idiot question #2: do they come in sizes other than 700c?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kevina9 on July 28, 2015, 10:55:13 pm
According to notubes.com (http://notubes.com), Stan's standard tubeless kit will convert 21.5-24.5mm wide rims, in either 24" or 26", and also some narrow 29er rims (e.g. Bontrager 29er disc rims), using your current tyres, running at lower MTB pressure. There are other kits for different rim widths etc., including one for 700c cyclocross rims/tyres. Is that what you were asking? You only need tubeless-specific tyres if you need to run your tyres at road tyre pressures, AIUI. (I have no connection to the company, though I have just ordered the standard kit, to convert my Trek 29er to tubeless).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: thing1 on July 29, 2015, 12:18:22 am
Hutchies were absolute crap in the 80s and 90s. They'll never get another cent from me, regardless of what they are like now. There is a pair of Ones at home waiting to go on a bike.

Good to know.
our experience (on a not-so-heavy tandem, running 700x25, N=1..) is:
- Hutch Fusion 3 are no use - about 400 mile it split badly (at first a small cut that sealed, but then grew and grew until it wouldn't even hold an inner tube in).
- Schwalbe one even worse - less than 200 miles it got a cut that wouldn't seal at all (maybe just bad luck).
- Hutch Intensive pretty good. Got reasonable mileage from two of them. The third got a really nasty sidewall cut after about 300 miles which forced us to give up on tubeless completely as it was just getting silly in $$ spent. But this one seemed to have the best treadlife of the 3 models we tried.

For better or worse, we're giving Hutch Intensive a second try on PBP. I might have tried sector 28s, except for bad reasons. (I'd already ordered the Intensive before I even heard of them, and also I have a suspicion we won't even have clearance for them on the rear ... reviews say they're on the large side for 28mm, vs the Intensives run on the small side)

For geographic reasons, I've not ridden any of them in the wet very much...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 29, 2015, 04:51:57 am
Probably there is nothing in common with previous Hutchies other than the branding. It is just an example of my irrational prejudices against brands. Having been repeatedly 'caught' in the past by a brand, they'll never collect another cent from me again, regardless of their current state. 'Good will' can be measured negatively.

I suppose that your experiences back up Schwalbe's advice when I asked about tubeless for tandems - 'Just say no'.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: thing1 on July 30, 2015, 01:35:07 am
I suppose that your experiences back up Schwalbe's advice when I asked about tubeless for tandems - 'Just say no'.

yah. I'd be interested what they'd say if a single 250lb cyclist asked for advice on tubeless.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 30, 2015, 02:06:27 am
From memory, Schwalbe list maximum weights for the various tyres and widths. Anything above the maximum weight is not recommended/ covered, regardless for being a solo or tandem. The extra speed, force and temperature (rim brakes) particularly experienced by tandem tyres guide those limits according to their tech staff.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fuaran on July 30, 2015, 02:53:44 am
Schwalbe have announced tubeless versions of the Marathon Almotion and Marathon Supreme. They should be better suited to heavier loads. But it seems still not available to buy yet.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on July 30, 2015, 09:43:52 am
Idiot question... is it easy/possible to convert a "normal" rim to run tubeless (CXP33 and OpenPro if that matters)?? I was thinking you could with some special tape, a valve and a tubeless wheel but my LBS said that it wasn't possible. It is quite likely that they don't know they are talking about...

It can be done more cheaply than the £50 kit, though it's a bit rim dependent I think. Certainly I've taped up (using 3 wraps of Stans yellow tape to build up the well) an H+ Son Archetype rim, fitted a tubeless valve and successfully fitted a tubeless Schwalbe One to it for my dynamo front wheel on the GP bike.  Initial inflation can be a bit of a pain, but I managed with a decent (Topeak Joe Blow) track pump. Took a few days to properly seal - much bouncing and shaking of wheel over the first 2-3 days when re-inflating - but it's been fine since. In contrast I completely failed on a set of Aksium Ones - probably because the rim joint wasn't airtight.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: thing1 on July 30, 2015, 11:18:55 pm
From memory, Schwalbe list maximum weights for the various tyres and widths. Anything above the maximum weight is not recommended/ covered, regardless for being a solo or tandem.

heh heh!
http://www.schwalbe.com/en/road-reader/schwalbe-one.html
"Maximum load:70 kg"

Actually I'm not sure how to read that. Either that's all up weight, in which case (and, certainly allowing for the bike) means 95% of riders must be exceeding it (including Teethgrinder, given that rack pack).  Or, it's per tyre, in which case Things+tandem is just within it  :)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 30, 2015, 11:48:08 pm
Per tyre I think but weight distribution is rear biased with about 60-65% on the rear of a solo, depending on rider position.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: thing1 on July 31, 2015, 11:36:19 pm
Per tyre I think but weight distribution is rear biased with about 60-65% on the rear of a solo, depending on rider position.

Yeah I came to conclusion that that would be the only sensible interpretation.
Now I'm intrigued to see how Things+tandem weight distributions plays out. We have 2 sets of bathroom scales...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on August 01, 2015, 01:40:30 am
Now I'm intrigued to see how Things+tandem weight distributions plays out. We have 2 sets of bathroom scales...

TTIUWP
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on August 03, 2015, 10:53:25 am
Per tyre I think but weight distribution is rear biased with about 60-65% on the rear of a solo, depending on rider position.

When the unlucky cyclist is climbing a steep hill and the front goes weightless, that'll be the test.  :thumbsup:

Not only will ALL the vehicle's mass be on the rear tyre, but also the force involved in lifting the vehicle against gravity and the shear force of tyre/rim joint, with or without sealing gloop between ,,,  BANG !  ;D

Some high performance cars suffer 'Tyre slip' on hard accels.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on August 03, 2015, 01:01:26 pm
Tubeless tyres ability to cope with chunks being gouged out of the tyre by bits of glass/ metal ??

I had a very nasty cut on the middle of my front Sector 28 a week or so ago. It looked like a small square hole, and I could predict it would fill up with tiny gravel pieces, but it hadn't actually gone right through as far as I could tell. I rode another 200 on it and the tyre seemed to hold its pressure afterwards. With two 200s due on 1st & 2nd Aug I went to pump the tyres back to my favourite pressure on the Thursday and found the front had gone decidedly soft.  Blast I thought. I got them both to pressure and checked later and early Saturday morning before heading to the start, and both were fine.

I rode Saturday's 200 and no problems. I rode the first loop of Sunday's ride no problem. I had just started the second loop when I heard "phish phish phish phish phish" (etc.....) white stuff spraying out of the tyre. Blast... Stopped the bike and put thumb over the hole, which was the site of the previous gravel trap hole. It felt as if a piece of tread was hinging out. After a three minute wait I rode on for a couple of kms and "phish phish etc..... Stopped. Did same as before. Rode on.

I could have put on my spare clincher and a tube in five minutes, but chose to experiment. After SEVEN phish phish phish incidents the tyre stayed sealed and I finished another 60 kms of that loop. Though the tyre was very soft it still rolled well and I felt safe.

Before starting the third loop, bearing in mind my car and track pump were 20 metres away, I chose to put the tyre back up to pressure and the seal didn't blow out. However it did a few minutes later. I kept holding the flap of rubber in place and waiting a few minutes and then rode on. Once the tyre got down to roughly the previous softness it stayed sealed. After I finished the last 70 kms I checked and it was showing 40. PSI.

The moral of the story is threefold:-

Firstly the tyre can and will reseal itself from catastrophic failure but your finger might be needed as well, and it may be at a lower pressure and still run well.

Secondly the tyre will run at a much lower pressure than seems possible.

Thirdly it is probably a mistake to put the tyre back to normal pressure because that tends to lead to the higher pressure blowing out the repair

Of course with a gravel trap I should have replaced the tyre in the first place, but hey it got me round maybe three 200s and is still this morning at around 40 PSI....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on August 06, 2015, 10:02:18 pm
I got a puncture tonight.  I decided to take my PBP bike into work today and on the way home I became aware that my back tyre was soft. 

I stopped and could feel it was down to about 30psi.  I managed to ride home ok, keeping my weight forward when there were any bumps.  The pressure didn't go down any further.

At home, I re-inflated the tyre, and immediately the seal blew.  I found the cut.  Not enormous, maybe 3mm long.  I let air out and pumped it up again, but it blew once more.  I kept doing this for a while.  I even got it up to about 70 psi, but it kept blowing. 

I couldn't decide whether just to leave it to set overnight or take it off and patch from the inside. 

I'm doing a 200km ride tomorrow night, so I though I'd do the latter rather than risking it.  If I had a new tyre I would just put that on, but I don't, so I took it off (didn't need levers) cleaned up inside.  Saw one other puncture that had been sealed (coral). And I've put a patch on, which I'm leaving for half an hour to set properly.  Then I'll try and set it up again with more sealant and see if I can inflate it. 

My wheelbuilder fitted the tyres so it is the first time I've seen inside.  Doesn't seem too scary at the moment.  Fingers crossed it will work.  Will take a spare clincher tomorrow night nevertheless. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on August 06, 2015, 10:19:19 pm
Out of interest, what sealant were you both using?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on August 06, 2015, 11:05:35 pm
Stan's (pretty sure - I didn't put it in myself).

I got mine refitted and inflated with no problems and it is staying at 75psi.  Seems fixed ok.  May get a new tyre for PBP though just to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on August 06, 2015, 11:26:46 pm
Stan's (pretty sure - I didn't put it in myself).

I got mine refitted and inflated with no problems and it is staying at 75psi.  Seems fixed ok.  May get a new tyre for PBP though just to be on the safe side.

+ 1
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on August 06, 2015, 11:52:21 pm
I'm happier with a patch on (the inside of) a tubeless tyre as the natural inclination of the air pressure is to hold it on, unlike patching (the outside of) a tube where the natural inclination of the air pressure is to try to blow it off.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: thing1 on August 07, 2015, 05:57:07 am
We mostly use Orange Seal. When it's worked (including on tubeless and tubular) it worked great.

What sort of patches do you put inside? I've never really tried this. You rough up the inner surface and glue it like normal?

 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tom_e on August 07, 2015, 06:42:51 am
I'm happier with a patch on (the inside of) a tubeless tyre as the natural inclination of the air pressure is to hold it on, unlike patching (the outside of) a tube where the natural inclination of the air pressure is to try to blow it off.

That's possibly a touch unfair.  Inner tubes don't hold their own pressure, they're just pushed against the tyre.  So a patch is normally squeezed hard between the tube and tyre anyway. 

Not to say the combination of patch and sealant isn't reassuring.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on August 07, 2015, 07:12:01 am
We mostly use Orange Seal. When it's worked (including on tubeless and tubular) it worked great.

What sort of patches do you put inside? I've never really tried this. You rough up the inner surface and glue it like normal?

Yes, just a normal tube patch + rubber cement.  I googled tubeless repair and that was the suggestion.  I roughed up the surface a bit and applied the patch, just like on a tube. 
It has held up overnight so I guess it is fixed.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on September 21, 2015, 09:33:37 am
My front wheel is leaking from the valve hole.  Any tips?

I spent a couple of hours over the weekend fitting Hutchinson Fusion 3s to DT Swiss R23 Spline wheels.  These wheels came with my bike and are "tubeless ready".  They already had the rim tape installed.  I bought two DT Swiss tubeless valves, two Fusion 3 tyres and a pint of Stan's sealant.

Fitting the tyres was quite easy.  I didn't have to use a tool, just my hands and a cloth over the tyre and rim to protect my fingers.  I installed the valve stem with the o-ring on the outside of the rim.
I used washing up liquid and water in a 1:1 ratio to lube the beads.  Inflating with a track pump was easy and happened first time on both the front and rear wheel.

I then deflated the tyre, removed the valve cores and used a syringe to inject 30ml of fluid into each tyre.  Spun the tyre a few times to distribute the fluid.  Replaced the valve cores and pumped the tyres up.  All was fine with the rear tyre, and that is holding air well (at ~100PSI at the moment).

For the front tyre I get bubbling (of washing up liquid) through some of the spoke holes and around the valve.  The tyre deflated from 100PSI to 30PSI overnight.  Quite a slow puncture, but still not good.

So, any tips?  The wheels were new in February and have covered about 1200km with a tube in the tyre, before attempting the tubeless conversion.  Things I can think of doing are: I could add some more tape (I have some yellow TESA tape), replace the valve (although it is new) or add more sealant.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on September 21, 2015, 02:27:36 pm
I'd suggest the rim needs re-taping (or an additional layer applied) if you're getting leaks through the spoke nipples.  Not sure what O ring you have - I've only used Stans and they have a tapered rubber bung/base that seals to the tape with the aid of sealant. You could try re-inflating and shaking/bouncing the wheel to distribute the sealant to the leaky areas. Took 2-3 days for mine to fully seal (Pacenti tubeless ready) and I still lose around 0.5 bar out of the front over the course of a week, but it's liveable with.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on September 21, 2015, 06:34:45 pm
I had a bit of valve hole leakage when I first installed my Stan's valves.
Just need to needed to tighten up the knurled locknut a fraction to force that tapered bung into the edges of the valve hole.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on September 22, 2015, 08:13:49 am
Thanks everyone, they hold air now.  I added a bit more sealant (~30ml to bring the total to 50ml).  When adding the sealant I unscrewed the valve and pushed it into the rim a little bit.  I then injected fluid upwards (just a bit, 10ml) into the valve so as to coat the valve bung.  I then screwed the valve back down, inverted the wheel and added the rest of the fluid.

Haven't had a chance to ride them yet so can't give a verdict.  Hutchy Fusion 3s in 25mm are big tyres - easily 28mm across and very tall.  Should be quite comfy at my usual skinny boy pressures - 70 to 80 PSI.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tonyh on September 22, 2015, 09:20:32 am
Thanks all for the educational thread!

[Anyone know a pub where they will serve you "A pint of Stan's Sealant" ??]
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Veloman on September 22, 2015, 10:42:01 am
.............. Hutchy Fusion 3s in 25mm are big tyres - easily 28mm across and very tall.
That's very useful information as I'm considering the option of tubeless on my Paccenti rimmed wheels that Mike Conway made (and they are superb wheels!).  But, I doubt 28mm will fit the bikes I wish to use them on.  I currently use 25mm Conti 4 Seasons which are not the biggest profile tyres, but matched with 23mm rim widths give a comfortable ride for me.

I have purchased a 28mm Conti 4 Seasons to experiment with sizes.  Knowing the 25mm Fusion comes up on the large size is good information
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on September 22, 2015, 10:54:50 am
[Anyone know a pub where they will serve you "A pint of Stan's Sealant" ??]

It's a US pint - 16 fl oz or 473ml.  Somewhere in Boston will probably serve it.

Fusion 3s are also available in 23mm size, which might (or might not!) be nearer to 25mm when mounted on a 23mm rims.  The R23 Splines my tyres are mounted have 23mm wide rims.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on September 22, 2015, 07:46:44 pm
.............. Hutchy Fusion 3s in 25mm are big tyres - easily 28mm across and very tall.
That's very useful information as I'm considering the option of tubeless on my Paccenti rimmed wheels that Mike Conway made (and they are superb wheels!).  But, I doubt 28mm will fit the bikes I wish to use them on.  I currently use 25mm Conti 4 Seasons which are not the biggest profile tyres, but matched with 23mm rim widths give a comfortable ride for me.

I have purchased a 28mm Conti 4 Seasons to experiment with sizes.  Knowing the 25mm Fusion comes up on the large size is good information

I moved on from Hutchinson Intensive 25s to the new Hutchinson Sector 28, (28mm) and I would say it is a far better tyre.  It has a central section that is more or less a slick, and outside sections that have a sort of cross hatching grippy surface. I run them at 80 PSI and they are extremely comfy, whilst rolling very well - in groups I always end up having to brake on the downhills... .  They don't look that much taller than the 25s, but they are maybe, somehow wider...

I am also getting much better mileage on them...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 22, 2015, 08:37:58 pm
My first tubeless tyres arrived today from Germany (along with a tubeless conversion kit) The tyres are Schwalbe One 28.  I would have preferred 25s but the 28s were only £27 each which is nearly half what they usually cost.  The reduction will be because Schwalbe are bring out the One Pro, which is 70g lighter.

I'll probably do them at the weekend. Actually, bugger, Ive just realised I haven't bought any sealant.  Any recommendations for sealant?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 22, 2015, 08:43:08 pm
Schwalbe recommend their stuff or Stans (same stuff).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on September 22, 2015, 09:28:07 pm
I am also getting much better mileage on them...

Out of interest, how long are yours lasting? My Sector 28s are still going strong at over 8,000km, which seems rather impressive (that's on varyingly rough or silky smooth, but mostly rough, Yorkshire Dales roads).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on September 22, 2015, 10:57:11 pm
I am also getting much better mileage on them...

Out of interest, how long are yours lasting? My Sector 28s are still going strong at over 8,000km, which seems rather impressive (that's on varyingly rough or silky smooth, but mostly rough, Yorkshire Dales roads).

Good question. I remember having a strap from my Koala seat bag get stuck in my rear wheel causing an enormous downhill rear wheel skid at close to 55 kph, and I wasn't slowing. There was a huge spongy mess where the tread was, but I thought 'what the hell', and rode the rest of the ride.

Then I got a new rear fitted.

Problem is I can't remember which ride it was, but I wrote about it on here, so can someone remember?

If not I'll have to trawl back through Strava.....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 23, 2015, 08:30:01 am
Does the slimey goo go semi-solid after a while or stay runny?

If it turns into a rubbery skin, does it peel off or is there a solvent needed to shift it when replacing a tyre?
If it stays runny, does it flow off the rim when a worn tyre is replaced?
If it stays runny, does it creep to the bottom of the tyre when the bike is stored for a few days?
How long does it take to uniformly redistribute itself when the bike is rolled?

If it semi-solidifies into a skin to keep air from escaping, it is effectively an innertube which is fitted in a liquid form after the tyre has been mounted.
If it stays runny, it is effectively a low viscosity inner tube that squeezes into the gap between tyre and foreign object when a foreign object pierces the tyre.


Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on September 23, 2015, 12:58:48 pm
Your second answer is closest, but it's not a slimey goo, it's a liquid.  When you spin the wheel I expect it coats the inside of the tyre but when you stop, it flows to the bottom immediately.

I expect it would seal around a foreign object but I would still take the object out when I spotted it and have it seal again with the tyre intact.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 24, 2015, 10:12:45 pm
OK.

All fitted.

Surprisingly easy. Sealed first time, no leaking, no mess.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on September 30, 2015, 12:15:01 pm
Anyone know of a source of 25mm Schwalbe One Tubeless?
My rear tyre has worn through to the canvas - & I've currently had to resort to a non tubeless Durano.

I've done a trawl of the German websites and the usual Google shopping search,but no luck.

I'm guessing the dearth of these tyres at the moment is because Schwalbe are switching over to the new pro version?

Edit: I've just interrogated veloviewer and I'm a bit disappointed with the milage (kilometreage?)  I've got from this tyre - only 3500 km. - that's only 10 rides for Steve!   I'm still prepared to give them another go though as in all other respects the tyres have been excellent

Anyone else got any stats on how long their tyres have lasted?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on September 30, 2015, 02:58:03 pm
Having been putting off (and off, and off ...) actually switching over, can anyone tell me how large the 28mm Schwalbe Ones come up? Currently trying to work out whether they'll fit in place of Krylion 25s with reasonable clearance.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 01, 2015, 05:50:07 am
I have some. Remind me tomorrow and I'll measure them
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 01, 2015, 07:31:53 am
It is now 20 weeks and 2750 miles since my last puncture with olde fashioned tubed tyres.

"Pride comes before a fall,,,,,,"   ;) :-\
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 01, 2015, 11:36:50 am
Anyone know of a source of 25mm Schwalbe One Tubeless?
My rear tyre has worn through to the canvas - & I've currently had to resort to a non tubeless Durano.

I've done a trawl of the German websites and the usual Google shopping search,but no luck.

I'm guessing the dearth of these tyres at the moment is because Schwalbe are switching over to the new pro version?

Edit: I've just interrogated veloviewer and I'm a bit disappointed with the milage (kilometreage?)  I've got from this tyre - only 3500 km. - that's only 10 rides for Steve!   I'm still prepared to give them another go though as in all other respects the tyres have been excellent

Anyone else got any stats on how long their tyres have lasted?

I looked for the "25mm Schwalbe One Tubeless" recently and also found everywhere out of stock
I got Hutchinson Intensive 25mm instead ( from http://www.acycles.co.uk who despite the .co.uk are a French shop also know as "alltricks" )

As you say I have also heard that Schwalbe One tubeless do not have a great rep for lasting well.  But it's difficult to assess at this stage as there aren't that many people using them.  The Hutchinson Intensive do look like they might last a while.  Once the wheels are built etc etc they are going on the winter bike, I will be testing the tyres the hard way  ;D
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on October 01, 2015, 12:56:36 pm
Having been putting off (and off, and off ...) actually switching over, can anyone tell me how large the 28mm Schwalbe Ones come up? Currently trying to work out whether they'll fit in place of Krylion 25s with reasonable clearance.

On my Archetype rims (23mm wide external) they come up as 27mm tall and about 29.5mm wide

EDIT
Just re-measured at max pressure (6.5 bar)
28 mm tall, 31 mm wide
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on October 03, 2015, 11:30:11 pm
Thanks for that^.

Still need to actually measure clearances myself, then try to extrapolate to narrower rims - but at least I have some figures.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on October 04, 2015, 11:48:03 pm
A short tale to illustrate a maintenance issue...

Two days ago I felt my rear tyre begin to get 'squirrelly', meaning pressure reduced. I stopped and it was quite a bit down, and I found a tiny hole in the sidewall, bubbling but not sealing. I put my finger on it and gave it ten seconds, and it was sealed. I pumped tyre up to nearly the pressure I usually use, and finished the ride. It cost me four minutes....

Having lent my bottle of sealant to my local bike shop, I took the bike there the next day, with my "putting extra fluid in" syringe, and I showed them the tiny hole (now sealed solid) and suggested that the tyre was probably just about empty of sealant fluid, which would account for the delayed seal and loss of significant pressure.

Nigel the owner agreed and showed me an easy way to test. First you unscrew the valve core, with the valve situated a 3 o'clock, so any fluid will have drained away and not spurt all over the place.  Then you put the valve at the bottom.  Then you get a tiny Allen key and dip it to the inside bottom of the tyre, withdraw it, and read off the level of the fluid.

My tyre had none.....

We reposed it, and you then have to reinflate / reseat the tyre...

I did a 200 today with no issues.

The moral of the story is that I was lucky, cos if there had not been the last dregs of fluid in the tyre, it would not have sealed, and I would have had to put in a tube, which would have taken much longer.

The tyre had done maybe three months and 7,000 kms and the fluid was just about gone...

I strongly suggest you check your sealant regularly.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: La Tortue on October 05, 2015, 02:11:04 am
Nigel the owner agreed and showed me an easy way to test. First you unscrew the valve core, with the valve situated a 3 o'clock, so any fluid will have drained away and not spurt all over the place.  Then you put the valve at the bottom.  Then you get a tiny Allen key and dip it to the inside bottom of the tyre, withdraw it, and read off the level of the fluid.

I strongly suggest you check your sealant regularly.

I've often wondered about this.  That's a fine and dandy idea.  What measurement level on the Allen Key would be considered a suitable amount of sealant?

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 05, 2015, 12:19:07 pm
A short tale to illustrate a maintenance issue...

Two days ago I felt my rear tyre begin to get 'squirrelly', meaning pressure reduced. I stopped and it was quite a bit down, and I found a tiny hole in the sidewall, bubbling but not sealing. I put my finger on it and gave it ten seconds, and it was sealed. I pumped tyre up to nearly the pressure I usually use, and finished the ride. It cost me four minutes....

Having lent my bottle of sealant to my local bike shop, I took the bike there the next day, with my "putting extra fluid in" syringe, and I showed them the tiny hole (now sealed solid) and suggested that the tyre was probably just about empty of sealant fluid, which would account for the delayed seal and loss of significant pressure.

Nigel the owner agreed and showed me an easy way to test. First you unscrew the valve core, with the valve situated a 3 o'clock, so any fluid will have drained away and not spurt all over the place.  Then you put the valve at the bottom.  Then you get a tiny Allen key and dip it to the inside bottom of the tyre, withdraw it, and read off the level of the fluid.

My tyre had none.....

We reposed it, and you then have to reinflate / reseat the tyre...

I did a 200 today with no issues.

The moral of the story is that I was lucky, cos if there had not been the last dregs of fluid in the tyre, it would not have sealed, and I would have had to put in a tube, which would have taken much longer.

The tyre had done maybe three months and 7,000 kms and the fluid was just about gone...

I strongly suggest you check your sealant regularly.

But where had it gone ????

Did it blow out of the tiny hole and fly off the tyre to land on the inside of the mudguard? It shouldn't have if the bike was rolling along. It would have been thrown to the outer extremity of the inside of the tyre and stayed there.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on October 05, 2015, 12:58:34 pm
Every time there is a puncture a bit leaks out, a bit seals the hole. So it will get used up over time.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on October 05, 2015, 01:24:55 pm
I recently had a very significant visitation on mine which took quite some time to seal.... but seal it did, after liberally coating the inside of the mudguard, the derailleur, the chain stays etc etc.
I was left with about 10 psi - but it held when I pumped up to about 80 psi... and stayed sealed long enough to get home, and a few rides more.

I later dismounted  the tyre, more to check for any significant damage than to see how little sealant was left.   

Good trick with the allen key, must do a dip test before I go out next to establish a baseline.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Man of the Mountains on October 05, 2015, 08:48:00 pm
Latex sealant is water based and the water vapour diffuses through the rubber (in the same way that air does causing a loss in pressure only water molecules are smaller than O2 and N2). That is why you are left with the dry stringy latex residue.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on October 05, 2015, 10:21:54 pm
Also whenever you pump up the tyre there is movement of high pressure air in and out of the pump, and that would also entail movement both ways through the valve stem, whilst the pump is connected..

When you disconnect the pump there is always a 'pssssssst' as the higher pressure air inside the pump escapes..

And inevitably it will contain some volatilised sealant...


Any physicists care to confirm my conjecture?? Please ?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on October 05, 2015, 11:07:40 pm
Yes, topping up roughly every 3 months is about right. I don't bother with any Allen key checks. Just dismount the bead, look visually, top up, reseat and inflate. It does last longer in Winter mind as you'd expect.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Man of the Mountains on October 05, 2015, 11:35:24 pm
The valve only opens when air is rushing in i.e. when the external pressure is higher than the internal, so only a tiny amount of vapour could escape during top ups. A curious property of Nitrogen is that despite being less dense than Oxygen it is also less permeable through rubber. This means that the proportion of Nitrogen increases with each top up (Oxygen and water vapour having leaked out more). Some people pay to have their car tyres filled with Nitrogen because, well because its made from snake oil. We get the same effect for free ;-)

3 months works on my 29er but I prefer to avoid unseating the bead lest that introduces foreign matter to the established seal.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on October 06, 2015, 12:10:33 am
Having been putting off (and off, and off ...) actually switching over, can anyone tell me how large the 28mm Schwalbe Ones come up? Currently trying to work out whether they'll fit in place of Krylion 25s with reasonable clearance.

A bit late back to this thread, but 28c Schwalbe One's measure up at 30mm wide on Pacenti SL23's - internal width 18.5mm. Can't wait to see how wide they are on Kinlin XR31T (19mm internal)

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on October 06, 2015, 02:07:35 am
Thanks - another datapoint, and delightfully consistent with Somnolent's.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on October 06, 2015, 08:32:47 am
I recall a 25mm schwalbe one measures exactly 26mm wide while a 25mm Hutchinson measures exactly 24mm.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 06, 2015, 08:48:51 am
I recently had a very significant visitation on mine

So did I, yesterday - but mine didn't seal  :(  Mind you there was an 8mm sabre shaped piece of metal swarf right through the carcass!  Luckily I was <200m from starting out. In this instance I just intubated the tyre (I'm on hols at a friends place in France) and I'll sort it properly when I get home.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: T42 on October 06, 2015, 09:46:59 am
I recently had a very significant visitation on mine

So did I, yesterday - but mine didn't seal  :(  Mind you there was an 8mm sabre shaped piece of metal swarf right through the carcass!  Luckily I was <200m from starting out. In this instance I just intubated the tyre (I'm on hols at a friends place in France) and I'll sort it properly when I get home.

What happens then? Does the tube get cemented to the inside of the tyre with residual fluid?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 06, 2015, 02:24:44 pm
Also whenever you pump up the tyre there is movement of high pressure air in and out of the pump, and that would also entail movement both ways through the valve stem, whilst the pump is connected..

When you disconnect the pump there is always a 'pssssssst' as the higher pressure air inside the pump escapes..

And inevitably it will contain some volatilised sealant...


Any physicists care to confirm my conjecture?? Please ?

Connect the Trackpump head to the presta and there is a clear passage of pressure to the gauge on the pump. Air from inside the tyre rushes to pressurise the pump's connection hose and gauge. This may allow sealant to get into the pump's connection hose. Then there is a valve between the gauge and the outlet of the pump cylinder.

My opinion is that sealant will eventaually get to the gauge. Might take a long time. Dunno if the gauge can be internally cleaned.

On disconecting the pump head from the presta, the 'trapped volume' in the gauge, connector hose and pump head releases with a quick 'pssst'.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on October 08, 2015, 01:30:06 am
Also whenever you pump up the tyre there is movement of high pressure air in and out of the pump, and that would also entail movement both ways through the valve stem, whilst the pump is connected..

When you disconnect the pump there is always a 'pssssssst' as the higher pressure air inside the pump escapes..

And inevitably it will contain some volatilised sealant...


Any physicists care to confirm my conjecture?? Please ?

Connect the Trackpump head to the presta and there is a clear passage of pressure to the gauge on the pump. Air from inside the tyre rushes to pressurise the pump's connection hose and gauge. This may allow sealant to get into the pump's connection hose. Then there is a valve between the gauge and the outlet of the pump cylinder.

Your pump works very differently to mine, and indeed to any I have ever used.

With mine, I connect the pump head to the valve, and there is no movement of air in either direction because the valve remains closed. When I pump, the pressure rises rapidly in the gauge, hose and head rises rapidly, until it exceeds the pressure inside the tyre/tube sufficiently to press open the valve. Then, air from the pump rushes into the tyre, and when the pressure equalises, the valve closes. Pump again,  and restart the cycle, with air moving from pump to tyre.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on October 08, 2015, 05:20:05 pm
Also whenever you pump up the tyre there is movement of high pressure air in and out of the pump, and that would also entail movement both ways through the valve stem, whilst the pump is connected..

When you disconnect the pump there is always a 'pssssssst' as the higher pressure air inside the pump escapes..

And inevitably it will contain some volatilised sealant...


Any physicists care to confirm my conjecture?? Please ?

Connect the Trackpump head to the presta and there is a clear passage of pressure to the gauge on the pump. Air from inside the tyre rushes to pressurise the pump's connection hose and gauge. This may allow sealant to get into the pump's connection hose. Then there is a valve between the gauge and the outlet of the pump cylinder.

Your pump works very differently to mine, and indeed to any I have ever used.

With mine, I connect the pump head to the valve, and there is no movement of air in either direction because the valve remains closed. When I pump, the pressure rises rapidly in the gauge, hose and head rises rapidly, until it exceeds the pressure inside the tyre/tube sufficiently to press open the valve. Then, air from the pump rushes into the tyre, and when the pressure equalises, the valve closes. Pump again,  and restart the cycle, with air moving from pump to tyre.

I agree that as you pump, the pressure in the pump rises, and then the valve opens and as you continue the pump stroke the pressure rises equally in the entire tyre and pump system, and the valve remains open, however as you reverse the pump handle the pump undergoes a partial vacuum, which then sucks fresh air into the pump from the outside world, but that partial vacuum also sucks air back from the tyre, and as the tyre is at a higher pressure than the outside world, air from the tyre comes faster, and at this point I'm back to agreeing that this reverse rush of air, as it flows past the valve, begins the process of closing the valve, and after the valve is fully closed there could thereafter be no further leakage....

but I still might be wrong....  ;D
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on October 08, 2015, 11:47:41 pm
I've got a pump where either the pressure rises in the tube and opens the tyre valve, or the chuck holds the tyre valve open and pressurises the tube/gauge to the tyre's pressure from the outset - depending on how firmly you attach the head.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on October 10, 2015, 04:17:14 pm
Connect the Trackpump head to the presta and there is a clear passage of pressure to the gauge on the pump. Air from inside the tyre rushes to pressurise the pump's connection hose and gauge. This may allow sealant to get into the pump's connection hose. Then there is a valve between the gauge and the outlet of the pump cylinder.

My opinion is that sealant will eventaually get to the gauge. Might take a long time. Dunno if the gauge can be internally cleaned.

On disconecting the pump head from the presta, the 'trapped volume' in the gauge, connector hose and pump head releases with a quick 'pssst'.

I think this is complete bollocks, because this fails to account for the fact that the sealant is not uniformly distributed around the tyre, but it 'pools' at the bottom, so unless you connect the pump with the valve at the bottom which you wouldn't, then there will be hardly any flow of sealant into the pump.
I think even if it does, the pump will fail for other reasons long before it fails due to the backdraft of sealant contaminating the guage.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on October 10, 2015, 05:33:04 pm
That's probably a fair summary.  Tubeless with sealant has been out for, what, 10 years?  We're not hearing loads of mountain bikers reporting that their pumps have seized up!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on October 10, 2015, 05:39:25 pm
unless you connect the pump with the valve at the bottom which you wouldn't,

I generally do, because it helps to avoid symptoms akin to

I've got a pump where either the pressure rises in the tube and opens the tyre valve, or the chuck holds the tyre valve open and pressurises the tube/gauge to the tyre's pressure from the outset - depending on how firmly you attach the head.

On the other hand,

I think this is complete bollocks,

seems fair.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on October 10, 2015, 07:07:49 pm
unless you connect the pump with the valve at the bottom which you wouldn't,

And even if you did the valve is at the top of the bottom, and the sealant will have pooled to the bottom of the bottom.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on October 11, 2015, 10:08:40 pm
unless you connect the pump with the valve at the bottom which you wouldn't,

And even if you did the valve is at the top of the bottom, and the sealant will have pooled to the bottom of the bottom.
But what if you are in Australia, eh? What then?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on October 12, 2015, 08:26:00 am
unless you connect the pump with the valve at the bottom which you wouldn't,

And even if you did the valve is at the top of the bottom, and the sealant will have pooled to the bottom of the bottom.

Yes that's true actually. This was based on empirical observation, but thinking about it it was probably just the initial rush of air splashing the pool of liquid. There wouldn't be any significant quantity come out.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 12, 2015, 12:52:18 pm
I recently had a very significant visitation on mine

So did I, yesterday - but mine didn't seal  :(  Mind you there was an 8mm sabre shaped piece of metal swarf right through the carcass!  Luckily I was <200m from starting out. In this instance I just intubated the tyre (I'm on hols at a friends place in France) and I'll sort it properly when I get home.

What happens then? Does the tube get cemented to the inside of the tyre with residual fluid?

Quite possibly! I haven't had a chance to pull the wheel yet. I'll let you know what the outcome was when I do  ;)

EDIT:  No, it doesn't stick to the tyre, though why not I've no idea, I assumed the tight fit would mimic a puncture hole. Hmmm. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on October 12, 2015, 11:42:49 pm
Remember that mine was dry after about three months and maybe 8,000 kms and I reset/repump to pressure after every ride, so lots and lots and lots of very tiny losses, and probably a fair few holes I never knew I had that had invisibly sealed as well, which is another way you lose fluid....

I always pump up with the valve at the top, because it's easier to reach, but I always forget to put the valve there when I park the bike in its stand, so when I come to check pressure in the morning I have a completely random valve position, and move the valve to the top moments before I pump, so the area near the valve may well be still wet, and that rather daft failure on my part has probably also got something to do with it....

Good discussion though...  ;D ;D ;D :demon:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on October 13, 2015, 01:40:32 pm
i wonder how much of actual rubber bits remain in the tyre when the liquid evaporates? say if i pour in 30ml of "milk", what's the amount of solid content in it? does it turn into sticky goo?
i've used a conti revo sealant in latex inner tubes - just wondering if i can reuse them with different tyres, and if i flatten them would the insides glue together.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 13, 2015, 02:56:45 pm
I was talking to a chap from a company who make the tyre sealant canisters you get with some modern ‘eco’ cars.
He told me the sealant quality is from using carrot fibre. The small microscopic strands clog up the hole and the rubber matrix binds it all together.

I haven’t looked at carrot cake again in the same light.

Or was it parsnips ??
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on October 13, 2015, 03:16:23 pm
I was talking to a chap from a company who make the tyre sealant canisters you get with some modern ‘eco’ cars.
He told me the sealant quality is from using carrot fibre. The small microscopic strands clog up the hole and the rubber matrix binds it all together.

I haven’t looked at carrot cake again in the same light.

Or was it parsnips ??

What  so you mean you haven't heard of the cyclist who went in a caff, ate too much carrot cake, then went to the bog and was never seen again?! ;D
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on October 13, 2015, 07:12:22 pm
i wonder how much of actual rubber bits remain in the tyre when the liquid evaporates? say if i pour in 30ml of "milk", what's the amount of solid content in it? does it turn into sticky goo?
i've used a conti revo sealant in latex inner tubes - just wondering if i can reuse them with different tyres, and if i flatten them would the insides glue together.

I did come across something on this the other day.  CAn't re-find it now though.  Somebody had weighed new tyres and then re-weighed them after sealant had dried inside them.  It was something like 40g of residue that was left afterwards. 

(I can't remember if they had been ridden in that time, as there would have been some loss of grammes of tread if they had)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: toontra on October 14, 2015, 11:44:56 am
Does this thread belong in the "2015 Tommy Godwin Record Attempt" still?  Seems it would be better off in the Knowledge section.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on October 14, 2015, 12:01:36 pm
Agree
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 18, 2015, 01:14:32 pm
i wonder how much of actual rubber bits remain in the tyre when the liquid evaporates? say if i pour in 30ml of "milk", what's the amount of solid content in it? does it turn into sticky goo?
i've used a conti revo sealant in latex inner tubes - just wondering if i can reuse them with different tyres, and if i flatten them would the insides glue together.

It goes into a stringy elastic solid (in my case -Shwalbe Doc Blue)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 19, 2015, 07:22:18 pm
I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on October 19, 2015, 07:28:50 pm
A combination of a & e should sort it out.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 20, 2015, 06:59:40 am
A combination of a & e should sort it out.

If he wants to go to A & E, it can be arranged,,,  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 20, 2015, 09:41:35 am
I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )

My technique is to shake the wheel about vigorously after first inflation to splash the sealant about. This audibly worked when I fitted a new tyre this weekend. I could hear the air escaping from the bead, but turning the wheel so that was at the low point then shaking it stopped the leak. Usually a new tyre takes 2-3 inflations at least to start holding pressure reasonably IME.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: GrahamG on October 20, 2015, 01:06:21 pm
I did same as rafletcher - only needed on first fitting, and also needed to tighten up the valves a bit to get a better seal where the rubber bung sits against the tape.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on October 20, 2015, 03:14:02 pm
I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )

f) don't be a cheapskate and get some actual tubeless-specific rims rather than a conversion kit ;)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 20, 2015, 04:17:27 pm
f) don't be a cheapskate and get some actual tubeless-specific rims rather than a conversion kit ;)

I couldn't find any evidence that tubeless specific rims (Stan's Alpha 340/400/Iron Cross, Pancenti SL23 etc) were any better than any "wide" 23mm external design

Another thing is that the Son H+ is available in 36h and the Stan's are not.  Son H+ Archetypes are heavier too and that's a good thing, they should be stronger and wear out slower
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on October 20, 2015, 09:20:49 pm
I was getting my head around this topic when I saw on rant.cc that Hunt have released a range of tubeless ready (to the extent of being supplied with tubeless Schwalbe One's pre-installed) wheels which come with hookless rims.
Now I have to start again :(

linkeh http://road.cc/content/tech-news/169286-hunt-launches-three-new-wheelsets

Do you reckon the 4 season ones could cope with my generous frame? They do look rather lovely for the price....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on October 21, 2015, 11:01:06 am
Every time a non-racer rides on reduced spoke-count wheels, the ghost of Sheldon Brown kills a ghost-kitten, trufax

I don't see a point in going under 32 spokes for a general purpose, all weathers wheel. You gain very little and if just one spoke breaks, then the wheel might pringle. Less likely to happen with the CF rims though.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on October 21, 2015, 01:10:59 pm
For someone like me, who weighs 63 to 64kg, depending on time of year and beer consumption (always more in the winter), a 32 spoke *modern* wheel is massively overbuilt.

20 spokes front, 24 spokes rear on robust rims, or 24 front, 28 rear on lightweight rims is more than enough for us lightweights.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Biggsy on October 21, 2015, 06:34:40 pm
I only agree if modern means straight-pull or super-thick spokes.  64kg (10 stone) is not all that unusual, and broken spokes and buckled wheels aren't unusual enough with 32 spokes to make me think it's a good idea to have even fewer.  Personally, I want my wheels to be well overbuilt, so I specced 36 spokes (rear) when I was 10.5 stone.  The extra few spokes are insurance - very cheap insurance.  But of course the insurance is optional!  Each to his own.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on October 21, 2015, 06:42:32 pm
I currently weigh 3(ahem) stone more than 10.5 stone and have wheels with 32 spokes, 24F 28R and one set of 20F 24R (which are on 31mm rims and I still think are underbuilt). If the wheels last long enough my eight will be some 1.5+ stone lower.

I built the 32 spoke wheels, but interestingly the builders of the other wheels all suggest a weight limit that is heavier than me. However, I still feel they're a bit light except when they've got strong and deep rims.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on October 21, 2015, 09:00:07 pm
I only agree if modern means straight-pull or super-thick spokes.

My winter / long distance wheels are straight pull built with DT Swiss Aerocomp (cheaper DT Swiss version of CX-Ray).
20 hold front, 24 hole rear, 23mm wide rim and tubeless.

In over 20 years of cycling, I've never broken a spoke! (This means one will snap on the ride to work tomorrow, doesn't it).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 22, 2015, 07:00:44 am
Since 1965, I was spoke breakless until the fiasco of 2005/6.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on October 22, 2015, 09:15:17 am
Every time a non-racer rides on reduced spoke-count wheels, the ghost of Sheldon Brown kills a ghost-kitten, trufax

I don't see a point in going under 32 spokes for a general purpose, all weathers wheel. You gain very little and if just one spoke breaks, then the wheel might pringle. Less likely to happen with the CF rims though.

I know what you mean. My preference would be for good ole 36 spoke three cross, but they seem to be reserved for cheap mountain bikes and unsupported continental crossings :(
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 22, 2015, 09:45:29 am
I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )

Update.  The wheels are on the bike and I have been riding it since Tuesday.  I have ridden to the station and back morning/evening everyday and to the pub on Weds night

On Tuesday, pumped both to 90 psi before leaving for station.  At station rear is less than rock hard.  Pump up in evening to get home.  At home both front and rear seem ok
Wednesday morning front and rear both seem ok (not rock hard but fine to ride) so just go to station.  Wednesday evening both still acceptable, ride back
Wednesday evening later both seem ok Ride to pub.  Pressure fine during this trip.
This morning (Thursday) check both front and rear with track pump pressure gauge.  Both are down to 60psi, pump up to 90

So I am still not happy but 60 psi is better than 40.  Hoping for further improvement
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 22, 2015, 09:48:44 am
Maybe should have used tubeless ready rims. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 22, 2015, 12:02:34 pm
Maybe should have used tubeless ready rims.

Check out this article, which is the only thing I've seen anywhere that attempt to explain what a "road tubeless" rim is

http://wheelworks.co.nz/roadtubeless-vs-standard-rims/

Most of the advantages are to do with mounting, although the anti burping stuff might affect the maximum pressure obtainable

Here's the H Son Plus vs a Stan's Alpha 340

(https://audaxing.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/rimcompare1.png)

I note also that some sources claim that the maximum allowed pressure on a Alpha 340 is 90 psi
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on October 22, 2015, 12:11:23 pm
I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )

Update.  The wheels are on the bike and I have been riding it since Tuesday.  I have ridden to the station and back morning/evening everyday and to the pub on Weds night

On Tuesday, pumped both to 90 psi before leaving for station.  At station rear is less than rock hard.  Pump up in evening to get home.  At home both front and rear seem ok
Wednesday morning front and rear both seem ok (not rock hard but fine to ride) so just go to station.  Wednesday evening both still acceptable, ride back
Wednesday evening later both seem ok Ride to pub.  Pressure fine during this trip.
This morning check both front and rear with track pump pressure gauge.  Both are down to 60psi, pump up to 90

So I am still not happy but 60 psi is better than 40.  Hoping for further improvement

Probably worth adding some more Stans fluid and giving it a good shake. Sometimes they take a while to fully seal
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on October 22, 2015, 12:46:27 pm
Every time a non-racer rides on reduced spoke-count wheels, the ghost of Sheldon Brown kills a ghost-kitten, trufax

I don't see a point in going under 32 spokes for a general purpose, all weathers wheel. You gain very little and if just one spoke breaks, then the wheel might pringle. Less likely to happen with the CF rims though.

I know what you mean. My preference would be for good ole 36 spoke three cross, but they seem to be reserved for cheap mountain bikes and unsupported continental crossings :(

It's easy enough to get suitable parts to build into such a wheel, or Spa will do so for you also.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 22, 2015, 12:51:42 pm
Maybe should have used tubeless ready rims.

Check out this article, which is the only thing I've seen anywhere that attempt to explain what a "road tubeless" rim is

http://wheelworks.co.nz/roadtubeless-vs-standard-rims/

Most of the advantages are to do with mounting, although the anti burping stuff might affect the maximum pressure obtainable

Here's the H Son Plus vs a Stan's Alpha 340

(https://audaxing.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/rimcompare1.png)

I note also that some sources claim that the maximum allowed pressure on a Alpha 340 is 90 psi

Small differences, big effect maybe?

I must admit I've only fitted a pair of tubeless tyres after converting a tubeless ready rim. I was amazed how easy it was and how trouble free the installation was. The sealing was reasonable from the start but improved over a week or two.

The only issue I foresee is not knowing when the tyre is worn out.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on October 22, 2015, 12:52:41 pm
Maybe should have used tubeless ready rims.

Check out this article, which is the only thing I've seen anywhere that attempt to explain what a "road tubeless" rim is

http://wheelworks.co.nz/roadtubeless-vs-standard-rims/

Most of the advantages are to do with mounting, although the anti burping stuff might affect the maximum pressure obtainable

Here's the H Son Plus vs a Stan's Alpha 340

(https://audaxing.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/rimcompare1.png)

I note also that some sources claim that the maximum allowed pressure on a Alpha 340 is 90 psi


I'm currently running a pair of Schwalbe One tubeless on some Kinlin XC279 rims, which have a similar internal profile to the Dyad noted in your linked article. They are fine and sealed up without issue. Other people seem to think the Archetypes also work well.

Can you eliminate the valve (tighten up the thumb screw a bit) and tape leakage? Otherwise add a bit os sealant and carry on.

I've also got a pair of, the notorious, Racing Ralph's on proper 'tubeless rims' and they are taking a long time to seal properly. The rear is now good, but the front is still losing pressure of 2 to 3 days. I've used caffe latex on these as I hope the foaming action will help sort the very thin skin sidewalls more quickly.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on October 22, 2015, 09:50:48 pm
You might get better answers on a mountain bike forum. Most of us are beginners at the tubeless game. 
I've had no issues with my Schwalbe Ones on A340 rims, but that doesn't help you!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on October 22, 2015, 10:47:51 pm
Mine probably drop to about 60psi after a couple of weeks but that's no worse than tubes. And they're perfectly ok at 60psi.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: StuAff on October 22, 2015, 11:13:32 pm
I was getting my head around this topic when I saw on rant.cc that Hunt have released a range of tubeless ready (to the extent of being supplied with tubeless Schwalbe One's pre-installed) wheels which come with hookless rims.
Now I have to start again :(

linkeh http://road.cc/content/tech-news/169286-hunt-launches-three-new-wheelsets

Do you reckon the 4 season ones could cope with my generous frame? They do look rather lovely for the price....
I've just got a set of the Mason x Hunt 4 Seasons for my new Litespeed- picked up the bike Saturday- on the basis of the few miles I've done so far, excellent wheels. Was looking for something equivalent to Campagnolo Zondas, in terms of price/weight/performance/durability, and they fit the bill nicely. Recommended weight limit of 100 kg. The just-announced Gravel Disc versions are 28 hole spoke pattern rather than 24, 110 kg weight limit and the same weight (I think there's 5g in it....).  Josh Ibbett at Hunt (Transcontinental Race winner!) has been very helpful in answering my queries, worth dropping him a line.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on October 22, 2015, 11:35:13 pm
Thanks for the info StuAff.
Yes, those would be the ones - seeing as I have disk brakes!! (Not quite sure how I overlooked that  ::-) )
Thanks for the info, I need to get back to 110Kg anyway (3Kg to shift). Perhaps a set of these wheels would provide the motivation....
Wheels as dietary aids? It might just work!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 23, 2015, 09:40:54 am
You might get better answers on a mountain bike forum. Most of us are beginners at the tubeless game. 
I've had no issues with my Schwalbe Ones on A340 rims, but that doesn't help you!

The problem is that our fat tyred friends have a standard for tubeless (UST), and think it's really great to be able to run the tyres at 20 psi

Whereas road tubeless have no standard other than some patents by Stan's and want to run the tyres at much higher psi
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on October 23, 2015, 09:49:28 am
Whereas road tubeless have no standard other than some patents by Stan's and want to run the tyres at much higher psi

There *is* a standard, devised by Hutchinson and Shimano in 2006!  It's just that Stan chooses to ignore it, and other tyre manufacturers also seem to ignore it.
The standard requires a very specific shape of hook, and a carbon fibre bead on the tyre.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 23, 2015, 10:16:48 am
Sounds like a conspiracy to extract money from unsuspecting eager consumers.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on October 23, 2015, 10:28:34 am
My standard practice is to check tyre pressures and repressure before every ride...

Every ride....

My tubeless tyres, over close to 100,000 kms, have never held pressure continuously, compared to clinchers, but that's never been an issue, and not due to poor fitment or design, but rather an obvious outcome when you consider the lower pressures they use, and maybe the sort of roads I ride on... Potholes etc deform the lower pressure tyre and occasionally air escapes...

Don't worry about it - carry a pump and learn how your favourite riding tyre pressure feels when you pinch the tyre - use your pump....enjoy a bit of fresh air.... (Pun intended)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on October 23, 2015, 07:23:01 pm
Your tyres are losing pressure far too quickly. I pumped my tubeless up to 100 psi , rode to Paris, rode PBP, rode back. Total of 8 days elapsed and pressure had dropped to 70 psi. 70 psi us actually my preferred pressure where the comfort and rollng balance feels just right.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 23, 2015, 07:45:03 pm
When I pull the bike out of the shed, I put my weight on the saddle and see how much the tyres flare out. It ought to be 1.5mm each side on a 23mm tyre. If they look more than this, I use a track pump.
After work, I do the same when I pull the bike out of the bike store.

After a roadside repair, I do the same when I think they’re inflated enough.

Pinching a tyre to test its pressure is an old myth popularized in the music hall with hand actions to the song “Daisy bell.” ( a bicycle built for two )
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 24, 2015, 10:55:48 am
Your tyres are losing pressure far too quickly. I pumped my tubeless up to 100 psi , rode to Paris, rode PBP, rode back. Total of 8 days elapsed and pressure had dropped to 70 psi. 70 psi us actually my preferred pressure where the comfort and rollng balance feels just right.

This is kind of what I'd expect.  So the next question is, what do I do to the wheel to make it less leaky?  I am thinking more yellow tape.  Unfortunately the extra reel of it I bought seems to be too wide for the rim so I'd have to get some more from somewhere.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on October 24, 2015, 11:02:47 am
This is kind of what I'd expect.  So the next question is, what do I do to the wheel to make it less leaky?  I am thinking more yellow tape.  Unfortunately the extra reel of it I bought seems to be too wide for the rim so I'd have to get some from somewhere.

Do an eBay search for tesa 4289 tape.  I've seen it in 19mm and 25mm widths, but not the 21mm width that's common for Stan's tape.

You could also try to determine whether it's leaking from the valve hole with some soapy water.  Then possibly buy new valves.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 24, 2015, 12:08:20 pm
This is kind of what I'd expect.  So the next question is, what do I do to the wheel to make it less leaky?  I am thinking more yellow tape.  Unfortunately the extra reel of it I bought seems to be too wide for the rim so I'd have to get some from somewhere.

Do an eBay search for tesa 4289 tape.  I've seen it in 19mm and 25mm widths, but not the 21mm width that's common for Stan's tape.

You could also try to determine whether it's leaking from the valve hole with some soapy water.  Then possibly buy new valves.


I have the 21mm tape - it's too wide.  The stuff with the kit (12mm tape) is sold as "Universal" tape so I will get some more of this.  The rim was taped with 2 layers as recommended.

The valves are included in the "rim strip" which was in the conversion kit.  This is a piece of rubber that goes all the way around like a rim tape but has the valve in it

I've just added more sealant to one of the wheels as someone else suggested.  See what happens
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Biggsy on October 24, 2015, 03:46:37 pm
Pinching a tyre to test its pressure is an old myth popularized in the music hall with hand actions to the song “Daisy bell.” ( a bicycle built for two )

Bit odd to call it a myth.  Ok, it's hard (literally) when it's over 120 psi, but otherwise it's easy to gauge accurately enough with a strong pinch + experience.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on October 24, 2015, 04:01:37 pm
Pinching a tyre to test its pressure is an old myth popularized in the music hall with hand actions to the song “Daisy bell.” ( a bicycle built for two )

Bit odd to call it a myth.  Ok, it's hard (literally) when it's over 120 psi, but otherwise it's easy to gauge accurately enough with a strong pinch + experience.
Precisely. I did suprise someone on a night ride when I got the pressure right to within 5psi.

It is definitely not a myth. Just takes experience
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on October 25, 2015, 12:53:24 am
This is kind of what I'd expect.  So the next question is, what do I do to the wheel to make it less leaky?  I am thinking more yellow tape.  Unfortunately the extra reel of it I bought seems to be too wide for the rim so I'd have to get some from somewhere.

Do an eBay search for tesa 4289 tape.  I've seen it in 19mm and 25mm widths, but not the 21mm width that's common for Stan's tape.

You could also try to determine whether it's leaking from the valve hole with some soapy water.  Then possibly buy new valves.


I have the 21mm tape - it's too wide.  The stuff with the kit (12mm tape) is sold as "Universal" tape so I will get some more of this.  The rim was taped with 2 layers as recommended.

The valves are included in the "rim strip" which was in the conversion kit.  This is a piece of rubber that goes all the way around like a rim tape but has the valve in it

I've just added more sealant to one of the wheels as someone else suggested.  See what happens

I think that 12mm is probably too narrow and will allow some leakage. I would try ditching the conversion kit and just buying a couple of tubeless valves (Superstar or your local specialised 'concept store') and try with the 21mm tape accepting that it will run up the walls a little bit. The tyre bead will keep it in place and help the seal.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: StuAff on October 25, 2015, 07:08:21 pm
Thinking of finally trying tubeless (only five years after I got Zonda 2 Way Fits for the Viner specifically to give me that option!)- will be either 25mms for the Viner or something between 28-35mm (or thereabouts) for the new beastie. Apologies if this has already been answered, but on fitment & the necessary bead-fitting inflation: Will a track pump do the job for road tubeless, if not what about a 12v car inflator (the kind powered by a lighter socket), is that enough of a compressor? CO2 seems a bit wasteful, so if purchasing something to fit tyres is needed I'd probably go for an Airshot (http://www.airshotltd.com/product/airshot/).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 25, 2015, 07:33:44 pm
Trackpump worked fine for me. Both tyres fitted perfectly first time. 

I did spend a few minutes afterwards rotating and shaking the wheel on a horizontal axis as recommended.  Apparently co2 may cause the sealant to harden prematurely.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fuaran on October 25, 2015, 08:47:15 pm
You could make an inflater using a coke bottle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtmatxJG_zg
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on October 25, 2015, 11:21:25 pm
Thinking of finally trying tubeless (only five years after I got Zonda 2 Way Fits for the Viner specifically to give me that option!)- will be either 25mms for the Viner or something between 28-35mm (or thereabouts) for the new beastie. Apologies if this has already been answered, but on fitment & the necessary bead-fitting inflation: Will a track pump do the job for road tubeless, if not what about a 12v car inflator (the kind powered by a lighter socket), is that enough of a compressor? CO2 seems a bit wasteful, so if purchasing something to fit tyres is needed I'd probably go for an Airshot (http://www.airshotltd.com/product/airshot/).

Never needed more than my tracksuit for road tubeless. Just put a pair of 25mm Schwalbe ones on my just built dynamo wheelset and both inflated first time. The front hissed a bit by the sidewall, but after I'd left it half an hour it went straight up. Sealant added afterwards, so that was dry.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on October 26, 2015, 05:53:04 am
I don't think that a car inflator will have enough "oomph" to inflate a tubeless. In my experience (mtb) you need a big rush to get the tyres to seat. I've used both the Coke bottle and an Airshot. Both do the same thing equally well  but the Airsot takes away that feeling of dread that the whole thing is going to blow up very loudly!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: GrahamG on October 26, 2015, 05:03:12 pm
I've had enough deeply annoying experiences getting tyres to seat to buy an airshot. Hoping I can get the one remaining non-tubeless rim to work with that when the tyre next expires (same problem as others in changing for tubeless ready, it's a 36h rim). Even had frustration on the velocity A23's but that was before I found out that four layers of tape is best rather than the recommended two.... does make the campag 2 way fit approach with no rim tape required quite appealing.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 26, 2015, 05:11:13 pm
Sounds like I got lucky with my DT Swiss T-ready rims, DT Swiss tape (one layer) and valves, Stan's Sealant,  and Schwalbe tyres. It couldn't have been easier.

It was quite a relief. I'd been expecting to have to mop up something resembling the scene of a bukkake movie.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on October 26, 2015, 07:40:41 pm
Soapy water is the key to inflating first time with your track pump. Don't neglect that step.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 26, 2015, 07:46:57 pm
Oh yeah...I forgot about that. I did that too.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 27, 2015, 08:41:36 am
ok latest

More sealant-- no effect

Added 2 more layers of 21mm wide tape to the front wheel.   21mm only just fits inside a Son H plus Archetype.  It's stayed fully pumped up overnight

I'll do the rear tonight
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tiermat on October 27, 2015, 09:24:56 am
Just done the front wheel on the Renegade.

Couldn't have been easier! Remove tube, fit tubeless valve, pump up to seat tyre, remove valve core, squirt in gunk, replace core then pump up again.

American Classic Argent wheels with Clement X'Plor USB tyres.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 28, 2015, 11:05:02 am
All OK now

Full writeup on the blog  https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2015/10/28/going-tubeless-not-made-easy/
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on October 28, 2015, 12:52:17 pm
i'm after a fastish long lasting tubeless tyre with a good grip in wet, 25 or 28mm wide. the tubeless durano would be ideal - i hope that schwalbe starts making it (or the equivalent) soon.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 28, 2015, 01:25:06 pm
Hutchinson Sector 28?

Bikey Mikey rates them. I'm on Schwalbe Ones. Fast, but don't know about wear yet. They are about to be made 70g lighter with the Pro One
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on October 28, 2015, 01:37:15 pm
I fitted Hutchinson Sector 28s last November and they've done just under 7,000 km now, with about 3,000 of that being November-March. I keep toying with replacing them, but whilst the rear has just begun to square off (2-3mm, vaguely flat centre section), the front still looks almost new with the moulding line clearly visible. Very comfortable and no issues with grip in wet or dry.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on October 28, 2015, 02:23:45 pm
Hutchinson Sector 28?

Bikey Mikey rates them. I'm on Schwalbe Ones. Fast, but don't know about wear yet. They are about to be made 70g lighter with the Pro One
I fitted Hutchinson Sector 28s last November and they've done just under 7,000 km now, with about 3,000 of that being November-March. I keep toying with replacing them, but whilst the rear has just begun to square off (2-3mm, vaguely flat centre section), the front still looks almost new with the moulding line clearly visible. Very comfortable and no issues with grip in wet or dry.

thank you, this sounds like a good (if the only one) option.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on October 28, 2015, 05:45:25 pm
Yep, with approx 9,000 kms on my Sector 28s the front still has a good rounded profile... Rear very very good...

I'm only 63 kgs at the moment, so YMMV if you're more, um, muscular....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on October 28, 2015, 05:51:16 pm
Your tyres are losing pressure far too quickly. I pumped my tubeless up to 100 psi , rode to Paris, rode PBP, rode back. Total of 8 days elapsed and pressure had dropped to 70 psi. 70 psi us actually my preferred pressure where the comfort and rollng balance feels just right.

Hi Phil - just saw this, which I missed the first read through...

I started PBP with a little more than usual, say 90 psi, and finished with about 75.....

I also tend to over inflate a tad on the long rides, to allow for leakage etc, but I'm beginning to think that starting lower and using the pinch test, is probably a better option...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on October 28, 2015, 10:40:57 pm
I'm Sector 28's as well.  They also have the odd off road excursion as well without issue. Good mileage out of them as others have said.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on October 28, 2015, 10:44:22 pm
Your tyres are losing pressure far too quickly. I pumped my tubeless up to 100 psi , rode to Paris, rode PBP, rode back. Total of 8 days elapsed and pressure had dropped to 70 psi. 70 psi us actually my preferred pressure where the comfort and rollng balance feels just right.

Hi Phil - just saw this, which I missed the first read through...

I started PBP with a little more than usual, say 90 psi, and finished with about 75.....

I also tend to over inflate a tad on the long rides, to allow for leakage etc, but I'm beginning to think that starting lower and using the pinch test, is probably a better option...

I do actually prefer them between 70-80 psi, and you're right maybe I should just inflate to my prefered pressure plus say psi for 600+ and multi day rides.  Outside multi day Audax I've often left it two weeks between inflationary without worrying.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tiermat on October 30, 2015, 11:10:48 am
Just done the front wheel on the Renegade.

Couldn't have been easier! Remove tube, fit tubeless valve, pump up to seat tyre, remove valve core, squirt in gunk, replace core then pump up again.

American Classic Argent wheels with Clement X'Plor USB tyres.

OK, so my Joe Blow Sport couldn't get enough air in to make a good seal, noe could my el-cheapo Tesco track pump, so I splashed out on a new SKS pump, yesterday, shoved a metric shitload of air in there (110PSI to be precise, the max the tyre will take) then shook the wheel whilst rotating it.  A small bubble of sealant appeared at the rim, I carried on shaking and it didn't get any bigger, so lef tit overnight and the pressure has held!

So, important things I have found (which echoes other's findings)

1) ensure tape is good
2) once tyre back on, roll it along the floor (no air in) to get the bead seated properly
3) ensure you have a GOOD track pump, or air line.
4) pump the tyre up to it's max to seat fully
5) let the air out, add gunk, replace valve core then pump it back up to max.
6) shake it!
7) shake it some more.
8) Don't try to bypass any of the above steps, it'll just lead to the tyre going down!

FWIW the tyres I am using are NOT tubelss ones, but there are many reports of them being fine, out there on the internet, hence I wasn't worried about using them.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 30, 2015, 11:16:32 am
The only comment I would make is that a CO2 inflator generally works if your track pump (and mine is a good newish Joe Blow one) doesn't. Cheaper than buying a compressor, unless you have other needs/uses for said compressor.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ivan on October 30, 2015, 11:41:23 am

I get by with a track pump fine, but my trick is to fit new tyres with an inner tube first and leave them overnight to conform to the rim and get rid of any major creases. etc. The other trick is to leave the valve core out for the initial inflation to get the air in quicker/easier.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tiermat on October 30, 2015, 11:51:20 am

I get by with a track pump fine, but my trick is to fit new tyres with an inner tube first and leave them overnight to conform to the rim and get rid of any major creases. etc. The other trick is to leave the valve core out for the initial inflation to get the air in quicker/easier.

That step had already been done for me, as the bike came out the factory with tubeless wheels, tyres that are suitable for making tubeless, and an inner tube in them! All I did (see above) was remove the tube and do the rest of the tubeless steps.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 30, 2015, 12:47:26 pm
The other trick is to leave the valve core out for the initial inflation to get the air in quicker/easier.

Even this doesn't always work, though I don't tend to use the tube-first method, which could well make it easier to inflate with a track pump only.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: La Tortue on October 31, 2015, 12:03:39 am
I believe the difficulties going tubeless is overrated as displayed in this video: https://teammooseisloose.wordpress.com/2015/10/30/team-moose-tackles-the-tubeless-tale/
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on November 01, 2015, 10:35:44 am
I believe the difficulties going tubeless is overrated as displayed in this video: https://teammooseisloose.wordpress.com/2015/10/30/team-moose-tackles-the-tubeless-tale/

Dunno, if you have the right combination of rim, tyre and the right equipment it is easy.  Trouble is there is quite thin info on what works and doesn't work.  Getting hold of the correct stuff isn't that easy.  Compared to fitting clichers it isn't as well understood or easy to do.  Remember, on yacf (which has on average higher cycling "know how") we have more than on thread about how difficult it is to fit clicher  tyres.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on November 02, 2015, 06:45:20 pm
I had a puncture yesterday, just coming out of Brighton.  It felt as if I might have run over a bit of debris, then I heard a loud noise, repeated about three times, then nothing.  I looked down and saw that the back tyre was looking a bit soft - although the bike was handling OK.

I stopped and had a look.  There was a wet patch on the tyre and it did feel soft, but not flat, and it wasn't going down any more.  I realised that the noise was most likely to have been escaping sealant and air hitting the mudguard for 3-4 tyre rvolutions, then silence as a seal formed and held.

I decided to try to put some more air in.  I got the pressure up a bit but the hole re-opened, but then re-sealed when the pressure got back to a certain level.

So, I got back on and rode.  The tyre felt fine - although I detected a hint of back-wheel wobble on a fast descent so took it slightly easy on a couple of very fast and twisty bits afterwards.  After half an hour I stopped again to check and the pressure felt the same.  I then rode all the way back to London, at virtually full speed. 

When I got home, I had a look at the tyre, expecting I might have to take it off and patch inside.  I put the pump on and discovered that it had been holding about 35psi.  I inflated it back up to 70 and found that the seal was now holding at that pressure - ie the puncture had fixed itself. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on November 03, 2015, 08:58:31 pm
Dunno, if you have the right combination of rim, tyre and the right equipment it is easy.  Trouble is there is quite thin info on what works and doesn't work.  Getting hold of the correct stuff isn't that easy.  Compared to fitting clichers it isn't as well understood or easy to do.  Remember, on yacf (which has on average higher cycling "know how") we have more than on thread about how difficult it is to fit clicher  tyres.

I went with Schwalbe Ones (28) on Archetype rims (stan's 21mm tape, valves, injector, Schwale Sealant and mounting fluid)   
I managed to get all the bits in one hit @ one of the German online suppliers  -  and it all seemed to go a lot easier than your experience.
Regular tyre levers (although with a bit of fighting I might have got them with thumbs)
First inflation with track pump and no sealant seemed to hold pressure so the beads must have seated right away.

The only issues I had on first fitting was sealant clogging the injector between doing front & back wheels, and one of the valve locknuts needed an extra tweak as my original casual 'finger tight' wasn't quite good enough.

I read somewhere that road tyres needed only 30ml of sealant (60ml for MTB) but as I was on 28s I went with 45ml

On occasion I've left bike for a week or more then ridden without checking pressures and certainly things have felt a little more 'cushioned' than usual but not 'squirrely' even when subsequent checking showed less than 60 psi.

Think they went from 95 down to about 70 over the course of PBP.

Had one single visitation, not dissimilar to Frank's experience... but hissed for longer and liberally coated inside of mudguard with sealant before holding about 10psi.  Re-inflated to 70-ish with the mini-pump at roadside and rode home without problems.  Rode another 200, also without problems, before dismounting the tyre to check it thoroughly for internal damage and replenishing sealant.

Maybe I was lucky with my rim/tyre combination first time around but they certainly get a  :thumbsup: from me.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on November 04, 2015, 11:52:36 am
Had one single visitation, not dissimilar to Frank's experience... but hissed for longer and liberally coated inside of mudguard with sealant before holding about 10psi.  Re-inflated to 70-ish with the mini-pump at roadside and rode home without problems.  Rode another 200, also without problems, before dismounting the tyre to check it thoroughly for internal damage and replenishing sealant.

So now you have a tyre weighed down with an unknown quantity of gloop, gloop on the mudguard, and gloop in a puncture that may or may not hold for the life of the tyre. And you still had to stop when you got the puncture, though I accept you had less work to do than replacing an inner tube would have involved.

This doesn’t sound like a worthwhile trade-off to me, yet very many road cyclists are converting to tubeless. Maybe I just hate gloop more than most.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on November 04, 2015, 04:09:49 pm
So now you have a tyre weighed down with an unknown quantity of gloop, gloop on the mudguard, and gloop in a puncture that may or may not hold for the life of the tyre. And you still had to stop when you got the puncture, though I accept you had less work to do than replacing an inner tube would have involved.

This doesn’t sound like a worthwhile trade-off to me, yet very many road cyclists are converting to tubeless. Maybe I just hate gloop more than most.

I must admit to sharing your scepticism.  I've recently fitted some tubeless-capable tyres to my mountain bike, and have been pondering whether it's worth mucking about filling them with snot.  It seems to be a trade-off between ability to run at <30PSI and having a chance at self-sealing after hawthorn attacks, and having to do extra snot-maintenance on an infrequently used bike.

On the road, where I get maybe one or two punctures a year, I'm struggling to see the advantage.  But I'm not a weight/rolling resistance weenie.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on November 04, 2015, 07:52:01 pm
For me, there are two benefits: the first one I had expected and the second is a pleasant surprise.
1. That it enables me to use fast tyres in winter.  I don't enjoy changing tubes with cold, wet fingers so I always used to use tough tyres (generally Bontrager Racelite Hardcases).  I had very few punctures on them but they weren't great to ride on.  The Schwalbe Ones are racing-quality tyres - really enjoyable to ride on.
2. The ride really is much better at lower pressure.

Where is the trade-off?  There is no gloop: the sealant is a liquid and you need c.30ml/30g per wheel.  Given you don't need a tube, the weight does not go up. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on November 05, 2015, 01:06:23 am
So now you have a tyre weighed down with an unknown quantity of gloop, gloop on the mudguard, and gloop in a puncture that may or may not hold for the life of the tyre. And you still had to stop when you got the puncture, though I accept you had less work to do than replacing an inner tube would have involved.

This doesn’t sound like a worthwhile trade-off to me, yet very many road cyclists are converting to tubeless. Maybe I just hate gloop more than most.

I must admit to sharing your scepticism.  I've recently fitted some tubeless-capable tyres to my mountain bike, and have been pondering whether it's worth mucking about filling them with snot.  It seems to be a trade-off between ability to run at <30PSI and having a chance at self-sealing after hawthorn attacks, and having to do extra snot-maintenance on an infrequently used bike.

On the road, where I get maybe one or two punctures a year, I'm struggling to see the advantage.  But I'm not a weight/rolling resistance weenie.

I've been umm-ing-and-ah-ing over it for a while, but my Shiny! New!1 Schwalbe Ones arrived today from Germany, along with a big bottle of Stan's sealant.

Now to avoid procrastination, and just fit the bloody things ... Hope I can get them to seal.



1: New tyres. Old version. But because they're discontinued, I got 'em for €30 each. I can cope with that price.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 05, 2015, 07:02:54 am
Had my first puncture last night. was riding offroad on a stony track and heard a pss...pss...pss.  Then felt a tiny brief spray on my leg (no, it wasn't Rogerzilla hiding behind a tree).  It did it another two times within about 100 metres then stopped.  I stopped and was surprised at how firm the tyre still was.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on November 05, 2015, 08:09:40 am
was riding offroad on a stony track and heard a pss...pss...pss.  Then felt a tiny brief spray on my leg

YUCK!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on November 05, 2015, 05:13:02 pm
was riding offroad on a stony track and heard a pss...pss...pss.  Then felt a tiny brief spray on my leg (no, it wasn't Rogerzilla hiding behind a tree). 

Could have been worse. Might have been Hummers.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on November 05, 2015, 06:57:43 pm
was riding offroad on a stony track and heard a pss...pss...pss.  Then felt a tiny brief spray on my leg (no, it wasn't Rogerzilla hiding behind a tree). 

Could have been worse. Might have been Hummers.

Was it a white liquid on your leg?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 05, 2015, 07:03:42 pm
Yes!  White and slightly sticky
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on November 05, 2015, 07:05:47 pm
Yeah, but did it taste like spunk?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 05, 2015, 07:16:16 pm
What does spunk taste like, Kim?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on November 05, 2015, 07:18:29 pm
Underwhelming.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 05, 2015, 07:21:08 pm
Really? Did you have high expectations of flavour then?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on November 05, 2015, 07:22:42 pm
People do seem to make quite a fuss about it...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 05, 2015, 07:24:21 pm
I can think of other things I'd rather eat, to be honest.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on November 05, 2015, 11:16:58 pm
i remember about a year ago a heard a conversation between club riders about a chap who had a tyre cut while riding in a chaingang. as he was riding tubeless, the riders behind got a serving of white stuff onto their faces  - he wasn't very welcome in the group after that. i wonder if the tolerance to such incidents will grow as tubeless tyres are getting more popular.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 05, 2015, 11:20:17 pm
Were they disappointed with the taste?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on November 05, 2015, 11:28:59 pm
Were they disappointed with the taste?
No one ever found out because their mouths were sealed. :)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on November 06, 2015, 12:13:54 am
All very droll, but you only get the psst psst noise and puffs of escaping fluid in the very occasional deep cut type of incident, and you won't even notice the vast majority of ordinary silently sealed pricks...

In a chain gang it's better to get a hypothetical (I don't believe this actually happened) spray in the face from a rider who carries on, than a group crash caused by a sudden complete deflation, tyre off rim, punctured clincher, happening six inches in front of a fast following group
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 06, 2015, 07:17:52 am
I did something silly yesterday. As there was a 3mm tyre cut I attempted to use one of those repair kits where you have a brawdle with an eye and you thread a strip of gooey stuff through it and poke it in the hole (which had sealed)

It made it worse.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on November 06, 2015, 08:18:20 am
All very droll, but you only get the psst psst noise and puffs of escaping fluid in the very occasional deep cut type of incident, and you won't even notice the vast majority of ordinary silently sealed pricks...

In a chain gang it's better to get a hypothetical (I don't believe this actually happened) spray in the face from a rider who carries on, than a group crash caused by a sudden complete deflation, tyre off rim, punctured clincher, happening six inches in front of a fast following group

When I had just such a through-cut incident the spray didn't travel more than a couple of feet. I'm sure I've ingested far worse from wet roods covered in farm detritus sprayed about by passing cars.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on November 06, 2015, 11:33:49 am

1: New tyres. Old version. But because they're discontinued, I got 'em for €30 each. I can cope with that price.

Where did you manage to find stock?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on November 06, 2015, 02:06:17 pm

1: New tyres. Old version. But because they're discontinued, I got 'em for €30 each. I can cope with that price.

Where did you manage to find stock?

http://www.bikediscount.de/Schwalbe-One-Tubeless-Faltreifen-EVO

claim to have 25mm in stock for 32.90 euros

Oh, no if you press "buy" it says "ausverkauft".  So not there
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on November 06, 2015, 03:31:10 pm

1: New tyres. Old version. But because they're discontinued, I got 'em for €30 each. I can cope with that price.

Where did you manage to find stock?

http://www.bikediscount.de/Schwalbe-One-Tubeless-Faltreifen-EVO

claim to have 25mm in stock for 32.90 euros

Oh, no if you press "buy" it says "ausverkauft".  So not there
Yes - I tried that one too!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on November 07, 2015, 01:43:36 am

1: New tyres. Old version. But because they're discontinued, I got 'em for €30 each. I can cope with that price.

Where did you manage to find stock?

http://www.bikediscount.de/Schwalbe-One-Tubeless-Faltreifen-EVO

claim to have 25mm in stock for 32.90 euros

Oh, no if you press "buy" it says "ausverkauft".  So not there
Yes - I tried that one too!

https://r2-bike.com/index.php

But they only had four in stock, and I felt it would be rude to leave one or two behind in the warehouse to get lonely.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 07, 2015, 07:48:18 am
I've got a pair of new 25s and a pair of new 28s. Neither are boxed, but if someone wants to try the older version then pm me and we'll probably come to a suitable arrangement.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on November 07, 2015, 02:18:26 pm
I couldn't find the new 28s in stock anywhere, nor the new 25s at a healthy enough discount to tempt me - well, I found them somewhere for just over €40, but they'd gone out of stock once I went back to buy, and then I found the old ones for €30 ...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 07, 2015, 02:26:33 pm
Anybody know a cheaper source of Hutchinson Sector 28 tyres?

I think I need something a bit beefier on the back for winter.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on November 07, 2015, 05:50:52 pm
Cheaper than what? Acycles have them for £39.14 each at the moment ( http://www.acycles.co.uk/recherche.html?motclef=hutchinson+sector+28 ) and shipping is free (from France; takes 5-7 days)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on November 07, 2015, 11:33:00 pm
Cheaper than what? Acycles have them for £39.14 each at the moment ( http://www.acycles.co.uk/recherche.html?motclef=hutchinson+sector+28 ) and shipping is free (from France; takes 5-7 days)

Yep, at the risk of raising the kiss of death, I have bought sector 28s from Acycles and had great service and very fast delivery...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 08, 2015, 06:51:02 am
Wiggle have them for £40.49.

Have had a good hunt about and cant find them for much less.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 08, 2015, 06:21:55 pm
£31 each posted if you buy 4.

http://www.cycletyres.fr/pneu-hutchinson-sector-28-road-tubeless-protectair-max-1927.html?gclid=CPD_6aq4gckCFSEGwwoda-sOxQ

Could do a group buy.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fboab on November 08, 2015, 09:02:46 pm
I'd be interested in a pair if you do?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on November 09, 2015, 11:32:50 am
I'd also be interested in one pair if a group buy happens.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Chris S on November 09, 2015, 07:45:44 pm
I'd be interested in a pair if you do?

You know they're not 650s, right?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on November 09, 2015, 08:27:40 pm
OK here is an update on my 'mileage' (kilometreage?) on my REAR Hutchinson Sector 28 tubeless.

I have at last found the post where I described how I inadvertently ruined the previous rear...

On the Rural South 300 (27th June 15) I had a silly moment. I forgot to reconnect the long strap that tightens around the Koala bag on the seat post. Some time later I was descending a really fast hill with really smooth tarmac, touching 60 kph, and feeling totally secure, when the rear wheel locked up completely.  Oh shit, I'm doing an extended Swedish Rally sideways slide at over 50 kph, and the bike's not even slowing and it's twitchy all over the place and it's still happening and oh god I'm beginning to get scared and I don't know whether to jump or fight the slide till it stops...funny how you get scared when there is time to visualise the pain...  Any way I finally stopped and saw what had happened... The strap had wound round and round the rear axle, and in so doing it stopped the wheel... The tyre had worn right through the tread and two layers of puncture resistant material, and the damage was roughly the size of my little finger, and it looked horrible, but the air was still safe inside it, so I tried riding it expecting it to blow at any time, but it lasted another maybe 180 Kms..  Go figure...

With the exact date I was able to go on Garmin Connect and run a report on my distance etc since then, and I have done:-

8,596.2 kms

over 425 hours 36 mins 21 secs

averaging 20.1 kms including stops

and climbing 62,618 metres

THE TYRE STILL HAS A NICELY ROUNDED PROFILE, AND I'M PRETTY CHUFFED.....

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 10, 2015, 05:19:26 pm
I reckon I could do a group buy with 2 tyres posted to you for £65.  As opposed to £80 a pair from anywhere else.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Veloman on November 12, 2015, 06:09:58 pm
Interesting (perhaps) comparisons:

http://velonews.competitor.com/where-the-rubber-meets-the-road-what-makes-cycling-tires-fast (http://velonews.competitor.com/where-the-rubber-meets-the-road-what-makes-cycling-tires-fast)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on November 12, 2015, 07:26:49 pm
Indeed. But lacking the latest Schwalbe tubeless tyres and Vittoria models (the ones being advertised as having graphene, one of which Vittoria claims to be the fastest tyre in the world).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: GrahamG on November 15, 2015, 02:09:45 pm
An update for those interested on the previous buggeration of getting a tyre seated on a non-tubeless rim - in-keeping with an earlier post, it's actually a Velocity Dyad rim so there's a link way back on this thread with rim profile for a Dyad and comparison with (the 'tubeless ready') Velocity A23's which I have for all my 700c 'roadie' wheels bar this one.

I completely failed to install a Hutchinson Intensive on the Dyad previously using about 6 layers of stans tape to fill in the deep centre well and then using a stans CX rim strip. I think the problem that I had was the rim strip has a marked centre well all around except for around the valve where it's a very thick rubber across the full width of the strip - the tyre was quite tight and as a result it was both difficult to get the bead either side of the valve hole to ensure the air was actually going IN to the tyre, and to get the bead to sit either side of this thicker rubber without there being a big (relatively!) space under the bead 20-30mm either side of the valve where the tyre transitioned from the thick rubber at the valve to the centre well. Much swearing occurred with track pump and I gave up.

Then I went for a ride this morning, punctured twice, had three spare inner tubes (one failed) and didn't pack a repair kit - this is on the rear wheel of my fixed just to exacerbate things. I've been on tubeless (either Intensives or Schalbe ultremo zx) for the last two years and haven't had to stop to insert a tube or even top up pressure whilst out on a ride in that whole time, so needless to say the punctures annoyed the living piss out of me. Arrived home determined to get the tubeless tyre seated, with the help of one of these Airshot things that I bought to avoid sweariness should I have any problems in future - http://www.airshotltd.com/airshot/ - and this time I made sure that I soaped up the tyre bead too. Put the airshot on to 160psi/11bar, popped it on the valve and.... bosh! It did it! And after I'd put sealeant in, it did it again!  So glad I got this. I know it's aimed at MTB tubeless which are a bit more difficult to seat, but for peace of mind and sweaty track-pump-induced-lightheadedness avoidance, I'd heartily recommend it.  There is also a Bontrager trackpump with a similar thing built in http://www.bontrager.com/model/11881 but I've got three track pumps and wanted to avoid buying any more so decided the Airshot would save me £40.

Points of learning for a refresh:
Rims not intended to be run with tubeless tyres need the gap filling around spokes - lots of tape required. In fact, all my 'tubeless ready' A23 rims needed four layers of tape anyway, buy the one fat massive roll of stans tape if you're planning on setting up tubeless on more than one set of wheels rather than the just enough size.

Soapy liquid - I got a little bottle/applicator with spongy tipe in the Ultremo ZX tubeless pack, and thought it was all about slipping the bead over the rim easily to avoid having to use levers etc and risk damaging the tyre bead. In fact, with hindsight and input from this thread, I think it would have been better to apply it directly to the tape inside the rim seeing as it's to help the beads slide over the tape and seat easily.

Compressed air is entirely optional, and plenty of others have done without - including me using Velocity A23's on every other wheel - but it's much easier. Don't bother spending money on anything especially if you've got something like a Campag/fulcrum 2 way-fit wheelset where you don't even need tape, but if you are converter non-tubeless rims and can borrow one for first install (or just to have as back up), pinch one from work, it may reduce swearing or at least sweat volumes if you have trouble seating the tyre with a track pump.

*EDIT to add - I'm in Bristol, so if anyone local wants to borrow said Airshot contraption, just give me a shout.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on November 16, 2015, 01:15:38 pm
Interesting (perhaps) comparisons:

http://velonews.competitor.com/where-the-rubber-meets-the-road-what-makes-cycling-tires-fast (http://velonews.competitor.com/where-the-rubber-meets-the-road-what-makes-cycling-tires-fast)

Wider tyres are faster! Hah, excellent :)
I love my comfy 28mm slicks!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on November 16, 2015, 02:48:11 pm
wider tyres roll better, but are heavier and less aero. so in real world not faster, but more comfy.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on November 16, 2015, 03:45:23 pm
wider tyres roll better, but are heavier and less aero. so in real world not faster, but more comfy.

That depends on what kind of real-world riding you're doing, surely?

The aerodynamic effects depend on speed, the effect of weight depends on the amount of climbing and acceleration.

I'd suggest that for audax riding, better-rolling tyres have real benefits - at least to the plodders.

I'd also suggest that narrower tyres are a marginal aerodynamic gain for a typical rider, who would be better off addressing clothing, riding position, luggage and wheels first.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on November 16, 2015, 03:58:59 pm


That depends on what kind of real-world riding you're doing, surely?

the average real world where road surfaces are generally good and occasionally not so good.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on November 16, 2015, 07:00:26 pm
Hah, aero effect for me is definitely marginal. Probably lost in the error.
I'm far more interested in still being able to continue after 20 minutes of rural roads.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tiermat on November 20, 2015, 08:30:48 am
I have, finally, got mine to stay at the same pressure I put in for more than a day or so.

How? I hear you ask. Well, it was easy, don't pump them up to max pressure!!!!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on November 26, 2015, 06:07:05 pm
Has anyone tried specialized  roubaix tubeless?
fairly dear at £80 online but 180tpi compared to schwalbe one's 127 tpi....
and 295g compared to schwalbe ones claimed 255g.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 26, 2015, 06:17:47 pm
Has anyone tried specialized  roubaix tubeless?
fairly dear at £80 online but 180tpi compared to schwalbe one's 127 tpi....
and 295g compared to schwalbe ones claimed 255g.

Could be two layers of 90tpi or 3 of 60tpi....

I'd be waiting for the Pro Ones
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on November 30, 2015, 01:37:41 pm
Some interesting comments here about using "tubeless compatible" tyres with non tubeless specific rims. 

http://biketestreviews.com/staying-safe-riding-road-tubeless-wheelstires/

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on November 30, 2015, 02:32:59 pm
agree with all that apart from that hutchinsons "ride phenomenally"
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on November 30, 2015, 02:47:39 pm
So, what that's saying is that tubeless tyres that aren't Hutchinson's are merely "tubeless compatabile"
Also
"there are no true tubeless rims available"    i.e. only tubeless wheelsets .

So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on November 30, 2015, 04:08:52 pm
So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on November 30, 2015, 04:16:09 pm
So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

Really?   Why?

I've been using them for just over a year now.   Firstly with Schwalbe Ones,  now with Hutchinson fusions.   Not had an issue,  but then I'm just a sample of 1
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on November 30, 2015, 04:16:59 pm
He says that there are no tubeless rims, only tubeless wheelsets.

What are tubeless wheelsets made with then? Majik fairy wings?

https://www.dtswiss.com/Technology/TUBELESS-Technology (https://www.dtswiss.com/Technology/TUBELESS-Technology)
With the rim in the top pic, the inner bed isn't drilled. So how are spoke nipples inserted?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on November 30, 2015, 04:24:02 pm
So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

Really?   Why?


No hooks on the rim to speak off and removing material from the braking surface to lighten the rim.  There are reports on forums of tyres blowing off the rim (when using a tube) and the rim wall blowing out at the braking surface.
They are overpriced for what they are as well.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on November 30, 2015, 04:59:53 pm
Anything on the forums about tubeless tyres blowing off Stan's rims?   Just done some googleing and the reports all seem to be for regular clinchers with tubes.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 30, 2015, 07:26:02 pm
The article is a bit out of date. Key principles remain:

1. Only use tubeless tyres for road tubeless (Schwalbe or Hutchinson appear to be th e choice unless the I'd are also tubeless). Non tubeless beads are stretchy and may blow or roll off the rim.

2. It seems to be possible to run tubeless tyres OK on some non-tubeless rims but will depend on inner shape and a bit of luck. I've done it with LX17 and will th Schwalbe one's on Killin 28s, but am not really a big fan or that confident, hence a move to all rims being tubeless.

3. In practice sealant seems necessary and desirable to maximise the advantages.

The rim strip conversions are for mtb wheels and are a grim way to go about it.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on December 01, 2015, 10:43:36 am
I recently replaced a schwalbe one 25 on stans alpha 340 that had a bit of a 'bulge' in the sidewall that appeared to be due to what I can only describe as there being a slight separation between bead and sidewall.
sort of a bit like this on the right, when it should be like on the left:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/55634526/sidewall.png)

This was a rear. The front 25 seems  ok and both the 28s on the other bike seem ok however.

I'm wondering if i may have damaged it by using a tyre lever on it, albeit a plastic one. I have installed the replacement using thumbs  only and will be keeping an eye on it.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on December 01, 2015, 01:39:19 pm
This whole subject really does seem to be far more confusing than it should be.
I've got some Alex rims on my Kona CX bike that are claimed to be "tubeless ready"
At the moment I've got Schwalbe Ones and tubes on it but I'm tempted by Schwalbe one tubeless when the clinchers wear out. Hopefully all will be clearer by the time that happens!
My rims came equipped with rim tape, although I've no idea whether it's necessary if I were to run tubeless. I'm certainly not going to take it off to find out! :)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on December 01, 2015, 01:55:58 pm

https://www.dtswiss.com/Technology/TUBELESS-Technology (https://www.dtswiss.com/Technology/TUBELESS-Technology)
With the rim in the top pic, the inner bed isn't drilled. So how are spoke nipples inserted?
anyone know the answer to this question?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chris n on December 01, 2015, 02:05:46 pm
Attach a steel insert to the nipple, feed it in through the valve hole and use a magnet to guide it to the correct spoke hole.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 01, 2015, 02:23:54 pm
He says that there are no tubeless rims, only tubeless wheelsets.

What are tubeless wheelsets made with then? Majik fairy wings?


*sigh* the article is quite old.  Maybe at some point only complete wheels were available, not seperate rims.   Is it not possible things have changed in the mean time?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on December 01, 2015, 02:34:15 pm
what about the rims? that DTswiss website is current.

Chris has proposed a method, but that sounds extremely slow and not possible to automate.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 01, 2015, 02:45:02 pm
So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

All of the rims or just the 340?

Generally we believe you but in this case facts, figures and personal experience to back this up are required
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chris n on December 01, 2015, 02:56:41 pm
Chris has proposed a method, but that sounds extremely slow and not possible to automate.

Campagnolo/Fulcrum use a similar closed rim profile, and use machines from Holland Mechanics (http://hollandmechanics.com/) to produce wheels.  Couldn't say if they do automate lacing on that style of rim, but even if the lacing to the rim is done manually there's no reason why they can't finish it off in a machine.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on December 01, 2015, 03:56:38 pm
So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

All of the rims or just the 340?

Generally we believe you but in this case facts, figures and personal experience to back this up are required

I think the MTB rims are fine, but you're not running as high pressures as you are on a road bike.  I certainly know people personally who run the MTB rims with tubeless and non-tubeless tyres (and non-tubeless tyres run tubeless with sealant) and the tyre hasn't rolled off the rim.  Some run pretty extremely low pressure as well.

The problem with the road rims is the shape of the bead of the tyre and the shape of the "bead socket technology" as Stan's call it.  You will probably be okay with a Hutchinson tyre as the bead on these is a thick carbon fibre bead with a very distinct shape.

Normal tyres with a kevlar bead and inner tube run the highest risk of blowing off.  I've lost track of what the other tyre companies are using for their tubeless beads.  I think it's simpler and safer to use a different rim with more of a hook (Velocity, Kinlin, Pacenti) and you can successfully run tyres with inner tubes and not have to worry as much about getting the right rim / tyre combination.

There are two questions to ask:
1. if the tyre deflates, will the tyre roll of the rim?
    If the rims follow the Shimano / Hutchinson standard then they will not.
2.  if you have to put a tube in as your tyre will not seal, will the tyre blow off the rim?
    Again, if the rim follows the Shimano / Hutchy standard then it will not.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 01, 2015, 04:40:40 pm
So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

All of the rims or just the 340?

Generally we believe you but in this case facts, figures and personal experience to back this up are required

I think the MTB rims are fine, but you're not running as high pressures as you are on a road bike.  I certainly know people personally who run the MTB rims with tubeless and non-tubeless tyres (and non-tubeless tyres run tubeless with sealant) and the tyre hasn't rolled off the rim.  Some run pretty extremely low pressure as well.

MTB tubeless is a completely different thing.  There is much more experience "out there" and there are widely adopted standards for tyres and rims.


Quote
The problem with the road rims is the shape of the bead of the tyre and the shape of the "bead socket technology" as Stan's call it.  You will probably be okay with a Hutchinson tyre as the bead on these is a thick carbon fibre bead with a very distinct shape.

Normal tyres with a kevlar bead and inner tube run the highest risk of blowing off.  I've lost track of what the other tyre companies are using for their tubeless beads.  I think it's simpler and safer to use a different rim with more of a hook (Velocity, Kinlin, Pacenti) and you can successfully run tyres with inner tubes and not have to worry as much about getting the right rim / tyre combination.

There are two questions to ask:
1. if the tyre deflates, will the tyre roll of the rim?
    If the rims follow the Shimano / Hutchinson standard then they will not.
2.  if you have to put a tube in as your tyre will not seal, will the tyre blow off the rim?
    Again, if the rim follows the Shimano / Hutchy standard then it will not.

I've had people on random Internet forums say the same thing the other way round, that I am risking life and limb by not using "proper" tubeless rims with a bead shelf

The only thing that everyone is agreed on is that certain combinations are known to work (ie hutchinson tyres + stan's rims)  and there are dire warnings for anyone doing their own thing.

I am finding it all slightly tedious, it really highlights how utterly useless the Internet is as an information source
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on December 02, 2015, 07:55:48 pm
There are two questions to ask:
1. if the tyre deflates, will the tyre roll of the rim?
    If the rims follow the Shimano / Hutchinson standard then they will not.
2.  if you have to put a tube in as your tyre will not seal, will the tyre blow off the rim?
    Again, if the rim follows the Shimano / Hutchy standard then it will not.

Sorry if this 'Shimano / Hutchinson standard' for rims has been discussed upthread and I missed it.

My experience is limited to Schwalbe One Tubeless 28 - which have a much chunkier bead than most folders, and on a regular hooked rim (in my case H Son Archetype) but with that combination the answer to the two questions above is a definite no.
I've had two major deflations and in neither case did the tyre come off.
One the second occasion I had to put a tube in - and bizarrely, as I was doing so a WVM stopped and lent me his track pump, so I know that even at 100 psi all is good.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on December 03, 2015, 07:45:11 pm
I had my first Tubeless puncture yesterday after 21 months. Happened on a slow uphill section, so didn't seal immediately. But seal it did. I was only 4 miles from home so couldn't be bothered stopping and just continued home. The pressure was quite low though, so low the rims impacted the road if I hit a pothole. Anyway got home put bike away. This morning got bike out expecting to repair puncture, but instead just needed to reinflate upto my preferred pressure. I was able to do this with a compact road pump that fits in a jersey pocket. At no point did the tyre roll off the rim, or lose its seal. This is Hutchinson Sector with Alpha 400's which use the same bead as the 340's. So this combination perfectly safe.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on December 04, 2015, 10:24:28 pm
Sigh...

I have done over 100,000 kilometres in less than four years on Stan's Alpha 340 rims and Hutchinson Tubeless, either Intensive (25s) and latterly Sector 28....

They do not blow off the rims...

That is PROVEN because I have proved it....

Go away Luddites....

The rest of you are fine fellows.  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on December 05, 2015, 10:14:05 am
Read the thread, Mikey.  Hutchinson don't blow off the rim because of the thick carbon fibre bead they use.  You might not be so lucky with other tyres.  The Schwalbes seem to get a good write up, and I haven't read any incidents of them blowing off the rim, either.

I'm no luddite - I'm running Hutchinsons on DT Swiss R23 spline tubeless ready wheels.  They haven't blown off the rim, either.

It just annoys me when there are clearly set out standards for these rims and tyres and not everyone follows the standard, including Stan for their rim shape.  The hooks should be bigger.  It'd add about 10 grams to the rim weight!.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 05, 2015, 10:47:25 am
Read the thread, Mikey.  Hutchinson don't blow off the rim because of the thick carbon fibre bead they use.  You might not be so lucky with other tyres.  The Schwalbes seem to get a good write up, and I haven't read any incidents of them blowing off the rim, either.

I'm no luddite - I'm running Hutchinsons on DT Swiss R23 spline tubeless ready wheels.  They haven't blown off the rim, either.

It just annoys me when there are clearly set out standards for these rims and tyres and not everyone follows the standard, including Stan for their rim shape.  The hooks should be bigger.  It'd add about 10 grams to the rim weight!.

I think the issue is that there isn't one clearly set out standard for road tubeless. However, there are only a limited number of tubeless ready tyres availablefor the road - made by Schwalbe and Hutchinson. Panaracer are developing a tubeless bead and I think the new Vittoria grapheme tyres will have a tubeless option. The key to the bead is that I'd doesn't stretch and blow off the rim, unlike tubed carcasses that have some additional mechanical support from the tube, and that it fits the bead hook well. The rim needs, really, a shelf for the bead to sit on, so tension doesn't pull it back into the well, which needs to be a bit deeper to allow mounting the non-stretchy beaded tyres.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Biggsy on December 05, 2015, 07:25:39 pm
The theory of an inner tube giving mechanical support still baffles me.  Needing stiffer beads for the shallower hooks they're sometimes used with is all the manufacturers need claim.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on December 06, 2015, 05:56:20 pm
Read the thread, Mikey.  Hutchinson don't blow off the rim because of the thick carbon fibre bead they use.  You might not be so lucky with other tyres.  The Schwalbes seem to get a good write up, and I haven't read any incidents of them blowing off the rim, either.

I'm no luddite - I'm running Hutchinsons on DT Swiss R23 spline tubeless ready wheels.  They haven't blown off the rim, either.

It just annoys me when there are clearly set out standards for these rims and tyres and not everyone follows the standard, including Stan for their rim shape.  The hooks should be bigger.  It'd add about 10 grams to the rim weight!.

As I said, you're a fine fellow !!  It's the Luddites I struggle with !! Sorry if there was confusion.  :demon: ;D :smug: O:-)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 06, 2015, 10:25:33 pm
The theory of an inner tube giving mechanical support still baffles me.  Needing stiffer beads for the shallower hooks they're sometimes used with is all the manufacturers need claim.

I had the same view, but there is a mechanical difference. With a tube the pressure holding the bead under the hooks is exerted through the tube, which is pushed against the tyre creating friction helping to stop the tyre riding up over the bead hooks. This works because air isn't held in any gaps by a seal and so the tube is always forced against the tyre. With a tubeless tyre, the air holds the tyre against the rim wall, but there is not additional resistance to the tyre riding around the bead.

Some mtb rims are now hookless!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Biggsy on December 07, 2015, 03:26:59 am
What gaps?  How is pressurised air held away from the tyre casing?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 07, 2015, 01:48:32 pm
The theory of an inner tube giving mechanical support still baffles me.  Needing stiffer beads for the shallower hooks they're sometimes used with is all the manufacturers need claim.

I had the same view, but there is a mechanical difference. With a tube the pressure holding the bead under the hooks is exerted through the tube, which is pushed against the tyre creating friction helping to stop the tyre riding up over the bead hooks. This works because air isn't held in any gaps by a seal and so the tube is always forced against the tyre. With a tubeless tyre, the air holds the tyre against the rim wall, but there is not additional resistance to the tyre riding around the bead.

Some mtb rims are now hookless!

Dunno if all the Hunt-Mason road wheels are completely hookless but apparently at least the carbon fibre ones are
http://road.cc/content/news/165935-hunt-bike-wheels-massively-expands-disc-brake-wheel-range-2016
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 07, 2015, 03:07:21 pm
The theory of an inner tube giving mechanical support still baffles me.  Needing stiffer beads for the shallower hooks they're sometimes used with is all the manufacturers need claim.

I had the same view, but there is a mechanical difference. With a tube the pressure holding the bead under the hooks is exerted through the tube, which is pushed against the tyre creating friction helping to stop the tyre riding up over the bead hooks. This works because air isn't held in any gaps by a seal and so the tube is always forced against the tyre. With a tubeless tyre, the air holds the tyre against the rim wall, but there is not additional resistance to the tyre riding around the bead.

Some mtb rims are now hookless!

Dunno if all the Hunt-Mason road wheels are completely hookless but apparently at least the carbon fibre ones are
http://road.cc/content/news/165935-hunt-bike-wheels-massively-expands-disc-brake-wheel-range-2016

Just the carbon I suspect. I don't think you need to look far to work out what the alloy rims are.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on December 08, 2015, 05:58:57 pm
Just the carbon I suspect. I don't think you need to look far to work out what the alloy rims are.

What are they?  I was toying with the idea of getting some!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 08, 2015, 07:26:19 pm
Just the carbon I suspect. I don't think you need to look far to work out what the alloy rims are.

What are they?  I was toying with the idea of getting some!

Probably, the 17mm internal 28mm deep alloy rims are Kinlin XC 279 in disinformation and the 19mm internal 24mm external Kinlin 31T, which are 31mm deep tubeless ready rims available.from cycle clinic, Dr wheels, rebounded from superstar or (probably) brick lane bikes. There is also the 22T 22mm deep tubeless.

I've just built a set of wheels up using the 31T, including offset rear, which I'll write about later if I get chance.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 09, 2015, 12:20:35 am
Autospell drives me mad.

As noted above, I've just built a new pair of wheels for my GF Ti.  The previous wheels were called away to do duty elsewhere and, at the same time, I find myself in possession of a spare.set of dynamo lights, so I decided to build up asset of lighting dynamo wheels and see what could be done. I wanted to keep there's as light as reasonably possible, consistent with being reliable and not floppy.

The dynamo I selected is the Shutter Precision SV-9, which is a tiny 2.4 watt dynamo that is claimed to provide the full 3 watts at a slightly higher speed than allowed for in the German standard. Weight isbaround 310g and it is available in various drilling and for different lacking patterns. The downside to the sv-9 is the narrow flange spacing at 50mm outside to outside. After various thought experiments I decided to build 324 spoke radial, heads in to maximise stiffness with laser spokes and a stiff rim to help out.

The rear hub is a hope Mono RS, which with an offset rear rim gave nds tension at 62% of ds and is 11 speed capable. Spokes are 28 2x, laser nds and race ds.

Alloy nipples throughout, blue apart from silver either side of valve hole.

Having got this far I wanted a wide, tubeless ready rim that was as light as possible and available with an offset drilling for the rear. The Kinlin 22T isn't available with the offset drilling,  so the remaining choices were Kinlin 31t, DT Swiss r440 or Ryde pulse sprint.

 The sprints are super light, but have very thin brake tracks and are expensive for a probably short lived rim. The DT Swiss are a bit narrow and shallow for ultimate stiffness,  leaving the 31T.

The wheels built up straight and round with fairly even spoke tension - only my 6th and 7th wheels, but they seem to be the best yet. I took a lot of care destressing and ensuring even tension using ear and ukulele tuner as well as tensioner. Final tensions are 1100N front and 1300N ds rear. Nds is around 800N or slightly over as expected.

Weight has come out at 900g for each wheel before tape, valve and qr. I've got a set of the superstar 22g qr's so they don't add much. This 1800g wheelset compares to 2200g for the previous dyno wheels I built with sp's pv-8 front, 5700 rear, aci alpine and strong (ds rear) spokes 32 3x  with 22t rims.

I've not ridden them yet as I'm waiting for some more rim tape, but hopefully will try them out this weekend.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on December 15, 2015, 11:53:30 am
road.cc have a review of the tubeless S-One if you're interested.
http://road.cc/content/review/173205-schwalbe-s-one-tubeless-tyre
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 15, 2015, 11:26:12 pm
road.cc have a review of the tubeless S-One if you're interested.
http://road.cc/content/review/173205-schwalbe-s-one-tubeless-tyre

Sounding good.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on December 16, 2015, 09:41:40 am
OK here is an update on my 'mileage' (kilometreage?) on my REAR Hutchinson Sector 28 tubeless.

I have at last found the post where I described how I inadvertently ruined the previous rear...

On the Rural South 300 (27th June 15) I had a silly moment. I forgot to reconnect the long strap that tightens around the Koala bag on the seat post. Some time later I was descending a really fast hill with really smooth tarmac, touching 60 kph, and feeling totally secure, when the rear wheel locked up completely.  Oh shit, I'm doing an extended Swedish Rally sideways slide at over 50 kph, and the bike's not even slowing and it's twitchy all over the place and it's still happening and oh god I'm beginning to get scared and I don't know whether to jump or fight the slide till it stops...funny how you get scared when there is time to visualise the pain...  Any way I finally stopped and saw what had happened... The strap had wound round and round the rear axle, and in so doing it stopped the wheel... The tyre had worn right through the tread and two layers of puncture resistant material, and the damage was roughly the size of my little finger, and it looked horrible, but the air was still safe inside it, so I tried riding it expecting it to blow at any time, but it lasted another maybe 180 Kms..  Go figure...

With the exact date I was able to go on Garmin Connect and run a report on my distance etc since then, and I have done:-

8,596.2 kms

over 425 hours 36 mins 21 secs

averaging 20.1 kms including stops

and climbing 62,618 metres

THE TYRE STILL HAS A NICELY ROUNDED PROFILE, AND I'M PRETTY CHUFFED.....

Tyre now at 10,226.61 kilometres

Had no punctures/stoppages and it's still looking reasonable, and it's holding it's pressure well, and still pretty grippy, however I am thinking that I had the chance to retire early and enjoy my life, so I am wondering if I should do the same for the tyre?

Should I retire it early or keep going to the grim death ?

What do you do ??
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on December 16, 2015, 09:16:10 pm
I'd buy a new tyre. Fascinating though it would be to see how many miles you can wring out of that tyre I don't think the knowlege is worth a face plant in the rain!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on December 16, 2015, 11:32:52 pm
road.cc have a review of the tubeless S-One if you're interested.
http://road.cc/content/review/173205-schwalbe-s-one-tubeless-tyre

Sounding good.

It does, doesn't it ?

Sadly, I've had an e-mail from a German on-line shop that they haven't got them in stock and they don't know when they'll get them.
My LBS (1st port of call) said the same, hence my looking for alternative suppliers.
This is a bit of a bugger since the GP4Seasons on the rear of the Disco (by far my favourite bike) is looking so bad that I'm very reluctant to use it.
It's lucky that I'm not audaxing or even riding much atm ..............

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tiermat on December 17, 2015, 07:44:37 am
road.cc have a review of the tubeless S-One if you're interested.
http://road.cc/content/review/173205-schwalbe-s-one-tubeless-tyre

Sounding good.

It does, doesn't it ?

Sadly, I've had an e-mail from a German on-line shop that they haven't got them in stock and they don't know when they'll get them.
My LBS (1st port of call) said the same, hence my looking for alternative suppliers.
This is a bit of a bugger since the GP4Seasons on the rear of the Disco (by far my favourite bike) is looking so bad that I'm very reluctant to use it.
It's lucky that I'm not audaxing or even riding much atm ..............

According to my inside sources the whole -One range have had their release dates put back until the beginning of next year, now.  I am awaiting a pair of G-Ones.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 17, 2015, 03:26:49 pm
road.cc have a review of the tubeless S-One if you're interested.
http://road.cc/content/review/173205-schwalbe-s-one-tubeless-tyre

Sounding good.

It does, doesn't it ?

Sadly, I've had an e-mail from a German on-line shop that they haven't got them in stock and they don't know when they'll get them.
My LBS (1st port of call) said the same, hence my looking for alternative suppliers.
This is a bit of a bugger since the GP4Seasons on the rear of the Disco (by far my favourite bike) is looking so bad that I'm very reluctant to use it.
It's lucky that I'm not audaxing or even riding much atm ..............

I've probably got a very slightly used 28mm One Tubeless somewhere if you want to try such a thing through the dark months?

PM if so

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on December 18, 2015, 02:38:56 pm



I've probably got a very slightly used 28mm One Tubeless somewhere if you want to try such a thing through the dark months?

PM if so

Mike

Thanks for the kind offer Mike.
I have an unused 35mm Marathon Supreme hanging around that I can use in the short term and enjoy the comfort of a large tyre  ;D.
There's lots for clearance on the Disco so I don't forsee any issues.



Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on December 24, 2015, 09:51:21 pm
Not come across Mantel before, but they claim stock of the Pro 1 Tubeless in 23mm and 28mm
https://www.mantel.com/uk/schwalbe-pro-one-microskin-tl-easy
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on December 25, 2015, 12:28:56 pm



I have an unused 35mm Marathon Supreme hanging around that I can use in the short term and enjoy the comfort of a large tyre  ;D.
There's lots for clearance on the Disco so I don't forsee any issues.


Hhhmm, much less room than I anticipated; I had to ditch my botch-up mudguards.
Haven't ridden it yet but the tyre looks huge; it measures 36mm at 80psi.
No doubt I'll drop the pressure when I get used to it.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tiermat on December 25, 2015, 05:56:19 pm
According to a conversation I had yesterday, the Ones are now not due until the end of January :(
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 25, 2015, 07:33:14 pm



I have an unused 35mm Marathon Supreme hanging around that I can use in the short term and enjoy the comfort of a large tyre  ;D.
There's lots for clearance on the Disco so I don't forsee any issues.


Hhhmm, much less room than I anticipated; I had to ditch my botch-up mudguards.
Haven't ridden it yet but the tyre looks huge; it measures 36mm at 80psi.
No doubt I'll drop the pressure when I get used to it.

Pm sent
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tippers_kiwi on December 29, 2015, 10:50:10 am
I've had a shaky start with Tubeless. The promise of less punctures and being able to run at lower pressures convinced me to go for it and I have had several issues.

First tyres were IRC Formula Pro Tubeless RBCC
 - After 7km I had a cut in the sidewall on the rear which I fixed with a patch and it worked
 - After about another week I had another cut in the sidewall on the rear, I replaced the tyre with an old fashioned Durano+ and tube
 - The following day I had a piece of glass in the front that the sealant really struggled with, it worked in the end but there was a large cut in the tyre so I didn't trust it.

I ordered some Hutchinson Sector 28's thinking they would be a little more robust
 - 25km of riding I got a slash in the front that the sealant could not deal with

I must be the most unlucky person with this set up but I have not yet given up. I have ordered the Hutchinson Repáir kit and will see how I go. In the meantime I have taken delivery of  a set of Schwalbe S-Ones this morning. They look great and as much as I want to put them on the bike I am going to wait for the spring the amount I have spent on tires and sealant in the last month is eye watering.
 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on December 30, 2015, 12:36:34 am
That's tough, Tippers....

Stick with it...

Whatever you'd been riding, something capable of cutting gashes such as you mention would have taken out any tyre I would guess...

Are you riding through somewhere where the alkies throw their bottles to smash?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 30, 2015, 10:01:34 am
It is worth sticking at it.

I had a slightly difficult session last night when I decided to swap out the 25s on my GF Ti for 28s - all Schwalbe one. Everything was straightforward,  but when I let the rear down to put sealant in and tried to reinflate o couldn't get it to hold air. The beads just sat in the well on the, offset, rear rim.

In the end I left it for a couple of hours, cleaned it all up and changed the tape for new and it went up first time with the track pump - back to normal.

The 28mm Ones are huge on 19mm internal rims. Now I just need some guards that will fit...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tiermat on December 30, 2015, 10:04:25 am
The front has held up, no pressure loss for ~4 weeks, whilst sat in the garage, nor any disaster whilst out on it yesterday.

This does mean, though, that I really must get on and do the rear (which I might well do as a series of pics) but I think I will leave it until tomorrow, as doing it today and failing would leave me without a bike to go to the pub on tonight!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ningishzidda on January 19, 2016, 06:59:47 am
Punctured yesterday.
First flat since 12th May 2015.
Old tube out. New tube in, pump up and go home.
Fix punctured tube in front of telly last night.

No messy goo.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on January 20, 2016, 09:32:10 am
Punctured yesterday.
First flat since 12th May 2015.
Old tube out. New tube in, pump up and go home.
Fix punctured tube in front of telly last night.

No messy goo.

You know, I think early condom adverts sounded much the same  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on January 20, 2016, 11:28:07 am
Punctured yesterday.
First flat since 12th May 2015.
Old tube out. New tube in, pump up and go home.
Fix punctured tube in front of telly last night.

No messy goo.

You know, I think early condom adverts sounded much the same  ;D ;D ;D

What happened when I had a tubeless puncture

https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/01/17/tubeless-update/

To save you reading the article the summary is "not much".  And that's the way I like it near the end of a cold 200km

Last puncture was istr during the Exmouth Exodus, end of July last year on 28mm clincher tyres
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on January 25, 2016, 05:45:17 pm
Has anyone tried out the Schwalbe S-One Evo Microskin TL-Easy Folding tyres? 

I am attracted to them given they are 700x30C, I love my Durano Plus Folding and I have been visitation free for a good 4000 combined miles over 2 bikes, but I miss the comfort of a fatter tyre having come from 700x35 cyclospeeds.

I've got a HSON+ on the front and Alex Rims XD-Elite on the back but my assumption is it's just a case of giving it a good wrap of tape to get a seal......?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on January 25, 2016, 05:53:55 pm
Has anyone tried out the Schwalbe S-One Evo Microskin TL-Easy Folding tyres? 

I am attracted to them given they are 700x30C, I love my Durano Plus Folding and I have been visitation free for a good 4000 combined miles over 2 bikes, but I miss the comfort of a fatter tyre having come from 700x35 cyclospeeds.

I've got a HSON+ on the front and Alex Rims XD-Elite on the back but my assumption is it's just a case of giving it a good wrap of tape to get a seal......?

I'm using the old One's in 28c flavour on a pair of Kinlin 31T rims (19mm internal)  and they measure between 30 and 31 wide. They're nice and comfy.

Dont know about the Alex rim, but people report positively about the archetype. However, I'm not sure the internal well profile is ideal as it lacks any 'bead shell's in the pictures I've seen. Guess it's a case of try it and see.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 25, 2016, 05:57:22 pm
Like SM I'm using the old One tubeless. It's super comfy and quick, but I don't think it has anything like the durability of the Durano Plus. I don't think you can have both, so you take your choice
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on January 25, 2016, 05:59:01 pm
Cheers chaps, sounds like I might stick with the D+ for a while longer, Ive got plenty of life on them at the moment, but the comfort was the factor I was thinking about :)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 25, 2016, 06:02:32 pm
Yeah. The Durano Plus are superb worry-free winter commuting tyres, but boy do they give a shitty lumpy ride.

I'm thinking of giving Hutchinson Sector 28s a go  when the tubeless One tyres wear out
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on January 27, 2016, 10:20:50 am

<snip>

Tyre now at 10,226.61 kilometres

Had no punctures/stoppages and it's still looking reasonable, and it's holding it's pressure well, and still pretty grippy, <Snip>


Hey Mikey, what pressure are you running in your Sector 28's please.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on January 27, 2016, 10:57:22 am

<snip>

Tyre now at 10,226.61 kilometres

Had no punctures/stoppages and it's still looking reasonable, and it's holding it's pressure well, and still pretty grippy, <Snip>


Hey Mikey, what pressure are you running in your Sector 28's please.

I run 85 psi (and I'm currently 64 kgs)

That leaves me room for a bit of pressure loss over a long weekend.... but is still comfy and rolling well..
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 27, 2016, 11:11:13 am
I run 80 rear and 70 front and my weight varies between 75-80kg. So just depends what pressure you like really. I have run them at higher pressure but didn't find them any faster plus they weren't as smooth.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on January 27, 2016, 11:25:49 am
Thanks both, I'm 78kg and ran them at 95 at the weekend, up from 85, and picked up a LOT of road buzz on the front, also the front tried to get away from me in the muddy centre line when I wasn't paying attention  :facepalm: I'll take them back down a bit.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on January 27, 2016, 11:29:52 am
I can't quite bring myself to go any lower, probably because I'm a cowardly wimp...

Then again a little voice in my head is saying

 "just suppose his pump reads 15 psi less than my pump, for the same actual pressure?"

Has anyone ever done a pump multi test??
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 27, 2016, 11:42:06 am
I can't quite bring myself to go any lower, probably because I'm a cowardly wimp...

Then again a little voice in my head is saying

 "just suppose his pump reads 15 psi less than my pump, for the same actual pressure?"

Has anyone ever done a pump multi test??

Mike is right, I read that different pumps can easily be 10-15 psi different.  So my suggestion would be to play with the different pressures your pump says, and find out what works best for you. I've run them as low as 50 psi (according to my pump) but they were a little squirmy on corners at that pressure (still very rideable though).  I generally top them up once a week, but have sometimes left it 2 or 3 weeks.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 27, 2016, 11:48:46 am
Oh and for tubeless repair , where the hole is to big to automatically seal I use

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Panaracer-UST-Tubeless-Tyre-Repair-Kit/PANATYRZ220000000000?utm_campaign=Googlebase&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=Googlebase&geoip=UK&gclid=CPbToYz1ycoCFYoEwwodj1YDXg&gclsrc=aw.ds

It has the advantage that you don't need to unseat the tyre bead or indeed remove the wheel from the bike. So just a normal small pump to reinflate if necessary. It looks expensive but I bought it for my MTB 10 years ago, and it's still going strong though the glue has long since dried out. Used it twice on MTB and it works great. Road bike 2 years in hasn't needed a roadside repair, as the sealant has done its job.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on January 27, 2016, 12:17:37 pm
Thanks again.

I'm toying with the idea of this:

http://www.milkit.bike/

for when I have to replace, seems a good way to inspect the goeyness of the goo.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on January 27, 2016, 02:17:08 pm
Has anyone tried out the Schwalbe S-One Evo Microskin TL-Easy Folding tyres? 

I am attracted to them given they are 700x30C,

I've been trying to get a pair since before Xmas; the German bike stores don't have stock and no indication when they might get some and my LBS haven't been able to get any out of the importer.
If you find some, please let me know where they are.

I fancy them on my Dirty Disco because they're 30mm and they seem to offer more durability than the Pro One.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on January 27, 2016, 07:12:11 pm
Has anyone tried out the Schwalbe S-One Evo Microskin TL-Easy Folding tyres? 

I am attracted to them given they are 700x30C,

I've been trying to get a pair since before Xmas; the German bike stores don't have stock and no indication when they might get some and my LBS haven't been able to get any out of the importer.
If you find some, please let me know where they are.

I fancy them on my Dirty Disco because they're 30mm and they seem to offer more durability than the Pro One.

http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=143208;menu=1000,4,22,35

I know it says "1-3 days" but I have always found bike24 to be accurate about stock levels, lead times etc

Eye watering price however
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on January 27, 2016, 07:37:54 pm
Thanks vorsprung.
I hadn't checked recently (ie this week) on the sites so I missed that.

A tyre has been ordered.
Fingers crossed that they do have stock.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on January 28, 2016, 10:27:49 am
Thanks vorsprung.
I hadn't checked recently (ie this week) on the sites so I missed that.

A tyre has been ordered.
Fingers crossed that they do have stock.

Delivery time unknown again now, I originally wanted these or the 28 Pro -One Evolution on the new steed but didn't trust Schwalbe to deliver, they seem to have this issue regularly at product launch
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 28, 2016, 10:37:55 am
Quote
I'm toying with the idea of this:

http://www.milkit.bike/

for when I have to replace, seems a good way to inspect the goeyness of the goo

They are a very good way to inspect the gooeyness!! I backed them on kickstarter and have had a pair for a while.  Please do make sure that you completely deflate the tyre before doing the sampling thing!  otherwise your garage is sprayed with the goo!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on January 30, 2016, 02:38:47 pm
Quote
I'm toying with the idea of this:

http://www.milkit.bike/

for when I have to replace, seems a good way to inspect the goeyness of the goo

They are a very good way to inspect the gooeyness!! I backed them on kickstarter and have had a pair for a while.  Please do make sure that you completely deflate the tyre before doing the sampling thing!  otherwise your garage is sprayed with the goo!

Looks interesting, where did you buy them?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 30, 2016, 07:17:44 pm
When you say looks interesting, do you mean as a technique to paint the whole of the garage in latex white?

I backed them on kickstarter so got in ahead of the game.  I don't know where you buy them now.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tippers_kiwi on February 15, 2016, 12:03:13 pm
My own Tubeless saga continues, I am at the point where I think the fact that I am rather hefty (somewhere around the 110kg mark) is spoiling this whole experience.

A couple of weeks back on the January 200 I was on the first long ride on the tubeless set up since the Santa Special (where I also ended up running a tube due to a slash in the tyre) and about halfway into the ride just approaching the control I felt the rear tyre going down. At the control I quickly found the hole as there was sealant coming out, it was a tiny hole and I have no idea why the sealant could not do the job. I finished the rest of the ride with a tube.

I decided at that point that I should try a different sealant so I took the tyres off. While doing this I noticed that the Stans tape was actually moving about and that there was a lot of build up of the sealant around the tape. This led me to assume that most of the 'good stuff' in the sealant was being used to seal these holes and therefore when something breached the tyre nothing was left to seal it.

I took the tape off both wheels and retaped with 2 layers of Gorilla Tape over the full width of the wheel. I fixed the hole with  patch and reseated the tyres (with much vigorous pumping on the front and I submitted to CO2 on the back) then let them down added 60mls of sealant to each tyre (Hutchinson Sector 28) and inflated them to max pressure overnight. The next morning they had pretty much held all the air so I let them down and adjusted the pressure to 80psi (by my pump).

The tyre ride absolutely beautifully again. I managed several short rides with no problems and they were holding air much better than previously. In a week they lost less than 10 PSI, I hoped I had things sorted.

This weekend I went on a 100km ride, about 60km in I must have hit a flint and sealant started to spray out. I kept riding hoping it would seal but every revolution a gush of white fluid would squirt form the tyre. I stopped and turned the tyre so that the hole was at the bottom (it was a good sized hole) and it seemed to stop leaking. I pumped the tyre up again and it was holding....until I put weight on it and it started leaking again.

My next solution was to use the Dynaplug I had got for Chirstmas, I suspect the hole was to big as when I got the plug in the remaining air instantly leaked out around the plug, I wasn't going to add a second plug. By the look of my Mudguard and fork there was going to be little to no sealant left in the there. So I took one bead off, pulled out the plug and put a tube in to get me home, again.

The Hutchinsons are coming off, another failed experiment as far as I am concenred. I have a set of Schwalbe S-Ones that will be going on, it seems they have a reasonably good protective layer in the V-Guard that will hopefully stop the slashes, if it doesn't I'm going to have to admit defeat and go back to the tyre and tube set up, I can't be dealing with a puncture on every single ride of any length what ever the comfort advantages are.

I don't want to put people off, I can absolutely see a good side to this set up and I know plenty of you run tubeless with nothing but success. For me it's all wearing a bit thin but I am tyring to avoid going back to Durano Plus/marathon Plus rides as I do really like the feel the tubeless tyres bring.

I will keep the thread updated with how the Schwalbe's do.

If anyone wants a set of lightly used (repaired with Hutchinson patches) Sector 28's (pretty sure the back one has no cuts, just a couple of small holes) let me know, I won't be needing them again!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 16, 2016, 09:53:21 am
I pumped the tyre up again and it was holding....until I put weight on it and it started leaking again.

the difference (in pressure in the tyre) between you and a 65kg lightweight sitting on the bike is going to be very little

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on February 20, 2016, 09:20:25 pm
Thanks vorsprung.
I hadn't checked recently (ie this week) on the sites so I missed that.

A tyre has been ordered.
Fingers crossed that they do have stock.

The tyre arrived soon after I'd ordered it, as did the Velocity recommended Velotape and valves from Brick Lane Bikes (quick delivery from BLB, as always) so I arranged with the LBS to go along for the fitting. That was today.
They'd already put the tape and tyre on the rim (a Velocity Aleron) with a tube in to seat the beads and the tape. That, apparently had gone OK although they were sceptical about how I'd go on if I had to repair the tyre at the road-side. It was very difficult to fit. Ulp.
Things went pear-shaped when we put the sealant in- one bead off, pour in, re-seat the bead- and then pump the tyre up.
After some dramatic popping as the bead re-seated there was a different sounding "pop" and a hissing noise; the tyre had blown and there was a small hole somewhere between the tread and the side-wall. Spinning the tyre allowed the sealant to get to the hole and a small amount was ejected before the hole was sealed. The sealing was, IMO, very impressive, the hole developing much less so.
I'm in contact with the supplier about returning the tyre since it's obviously faulty.
It'll be messy (the tyre) 'cos it's got sealant in it ..........

Two steps forward, two steps back for me.

It's still about as sexy as a tyre can get though.


Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on March 14, 2016, 02:07:52 pm
Ok latest report, I have now been running 25mm Hutchinson Intensive since January.  In the past 3 months I have done a few 200km rides and lots of trips to the pub with no problems.  I had one "it's a puncture...ha it's fixed itself", the tyres are a bit narrow for 25mm and not particularly fast but hey ho

However, at the weekend when messing about with my new lights, riding up and down the road near my house I hit a bit of flinty stuff

I didn't notice at the time but overnight the tyre went down.  I found the sharp and removed it.  I reinflated with a co2.  Since then the tyre has been unreliable

It will hold 80psi+ overnight but as soon as I ride on it the leak around the hole reopens and all the air gradually (in a few minutes) escapes with dribbles of sealant

The hole doesn't look big to me (less than 2mm) but it must be too large for the sealant.  I am going to try and patch it with a inner tube patch on the inside and superglue on the outside and see how I get on.  A proper "tubeless external repair kit" is on order
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on March 14, 2016, 07:24:13 pm
I don't know what sealant you've got, but there seems to be a view not to use CO2 with Stans. Caffè Latex is supposed to be OK with CO2, and of course it may not relate to that at all.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on March 14, 2016, 09:01:42 pm
A new Schwalbe S One has arrived and I've fitted it.
It went on OK initially (still had to use the big lever) but I couldn't get it to seat with either the track pump or CO2.
Dribbling washing up liquid around both beads and some vigorous pumping got it inflated very quickly and there was some impressive "popping" as the beads seated. I pumped the tyre to the maximum recommended 80psi.
Next morning it was down to 40psi.
I unseated one of the beads, poured in some sealant (not enough but all that I had left) and tried pumping up again. No joy but a shot of CO2 sorted the bead out and I was able to inflate the tyre, again to 80psi. That was Saturday.
Today, Monday, the tyre was at 60psi.
I've had a brief ride but I can't come to any conclusions about the tyre since the Disco felt really strange after riding the Rohloff bike for most of this year. Plus the front tyre was only at 40 psi ................

More impressions to follow but I'm reasonably optimistic.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on March 14, 2016, 09:46:25 pm
The hole doesn't look big to me (less than 2mm) but it must be too large for the sealant.  I am going to try and patch it with a inner tube patch on the inside and superglue on the outside and see how I get on.  A proper "tubeless external repair kit" is on order

I've found that a patch on the inside works fine. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on March 15, 2016, 08:56:05 am
I am using Stans with Co2  Previously this has worked fine so I don't think it's that

Yesterday the sealant was exhausted.  Presumably the repeated leaking has used it all up.  Getting back the 4km from the station required 2x Co2 cartridges and a lot of stopping

Now the tyre has a patch on the inside and the external hole is filled with arildite.  I gave it another shot of Stans sealant.   It's all working fine again

This does put me off tubeless somewhat.  Patching the hole is very difficult because tubeless tyres are so tight.  To remove requires multiple steel tyre levers.  To refit requires a bead jack.  I wouldn't want to attempt this at 3am in Wales.

I guess removing the sharp was a mistake
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on March 15, 2016, 11:10:39 am
when i got tubeless-ready wheels i realised what it feels like when people complain about ba$tard rim/tyre combinations (still run regular tyres with inner tubes). i need two tyre levers and praying that they don't break when mounting the tyres. my lesson is that for non-tubeless tyres it's best to stick to using non-tubeless rims.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Karla on March 15, 2016, 11:19:17 am
I had a friend staying over last week.  He'd tried a 'ghetto tubeless' setup on his road bike, then crit raced it. 

The tyre rolled off on a hairpin.  My friend looked rather bruised and bloodied.

Quelle surprise.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on March 17, 2016, 07:23:31 am

This does put me off tubeless somewhat.  Patching the hole is very difficult because tubeless tyres are so tight.  To remove requires multiple steel tyre levers.  To refit requires a bead jack.  I wouldn't want to attempt this at 3am in Wales.

Some rim / tyre combinations are harder to put on than others - whether tubeless or not.  I've only done Schwalbe One / Stan's Alpha rims and they are no harder than the average clincher.  I've had to do one roadside repair in the last year and got the tyre back on with my fingers.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 17, 2016, 07:38:16 am
Quote
This does put me off tubeless somewhat.  Patching the hole is very difficult because tubeless tyres are so tight.  To remove requires multiple steel tyre levers.  To refit requires a bead jack.  I wouldn't want to attempt this at 3am in Wales.

I have had 3 sets of tubeless wheels over the last few years, reasonable DT Swiss on a Giant bike, very cheap on a BMC, new rim with my dynamo and now a set of carbon rims hand built.
They have all been no harder to fit than the previous clinchers. 

This forum would be fairly scathing of people who tried to run 10 speed shifter with 9 speed cassettes or similar so why complain when your standard clincher rim does not work properly with your tubeless tyre.  Yes it may with fudging work but it is not properly designed to work together and it will fail more often and need harder work.
Edited!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on March 17, 2016, 12:06:54 pm
This forum would be fairly scathing of people who tried to run 10 speed mechs with 9 speed cassettes

Except that the indexing comes from the shifter, not the mech, so a 10-speed mech and 9-speed cassette (or indeed 10-speed cassette and 9-speed mech) will generally work just fine.

(As ever, one of the edge cases is where you want to use 10-speed Shimano road shifters and an MTB mech, where you *must* use a 9-speed or earlier mech, because the cable pull ratio changed for 10-speed MTB derailleurs.)



(Apologies for smart-arsedness, but there are *plenty* of things that work just fine even though they're a bit outside the manufacturers' published parameters - it's just that your example was a particularly easy target. Back on topic, I've found 28mm Schwalbe Ones to be happy on Open Pros, though admittedly I've not done much mileage on them yet.)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Biggsy on March 17, 2016, 02:31:56 pm
Now my turn to be a smartarse and off topic.  :)  .........

Except that the indexing comes from the shifter, not the mech, so a 10-speed mech and 9-speed cassette (or indeed 10-speed cassette and 9-speed mech) will generally work just fine.

(As ever, one of the edge cases is where you want to use 10-speed Shimano road shifters and an MTB mech, where you *must* use a 9-speed or earlier mech, because the cable pull ratio changed for 10-speed MTB derailleurs.)

Because of cases like that, ie. differences of cable pull ratio, I wince when people say indexing doesn't come from the mech.  We should say that indexing depends on the combination of three things: the shifter, the mech geometry, and the sprocket spacing.  Campag has used more than one cable pull ratio even for the same speed, although the differences in some cases are slight enough to fudge.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on March 17, 2016, 02:36:14 pm
True. Pedant.


(Yes, I'm using that as a term of abuse because I know I was wrong - or at least not completely right ... But the point about 'non-recommended' options working perfectly in the right combinations stands.)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Biggsy on March 17, 2016, 02:49:30 pm
... But the point about 'non-recommended' options working perfectly in the right combinations stands.)

Yes and it's a good point.  Cycling and bike building would be duller experiences if we never used combinations that we're not supposed to, and much of The Knowledge is about working out what does and doesn't *really* work together.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 17, 2016, 08:44:16 pm
But we don't say that derailleurs you won't use derailleurs because mixing campognolo and Shimano might give you problems 50 mile from home.  But tubeless tyres are supposed to fit all rims??
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on March 17, 2016, 09:00:51 pm
Quote
This does put me off tubeless somewhat.  Patching the hole is very difficult because tubeless tyres are so tight.  To remove requires multiple steel tyre levers.  To refit requires a bead jack.  I wouldn't want to attempt this at 3am in Wales.

This forum would be fairly scathing of people who tried to run 10 speed shifter with 9 speed cassettes or similar so why complain when your standard clincher rim does not work properly with your tubeless tyre.  Yes it may with fudging work but it is not properly designed to work together and it will fail more often and need harder work.


Quite, but it's straightforward to me that 10 speed stuff doesn't work with 9 speed stuff.  Maybe it isn't to some people but it is too me.

With tubeless tyres for bikes it's not as clear cut as that.  I read up on it before hand and the story was as clear as mud.  The system I have ended up with is fine but the only downside is the tyres are really difficult to get on and off.  Next set of rims will be proper tubeless shape and hopefully will be easier to get the tyres on and off.

Let me explain that a bit.  Proper tubeless shape have a flat shelved part near the rim.  This means that they work better with sealing and re-sealing after "burping".  So it's conceivable that a less tight rim/tyre bead combination will be just as effective and safe as the very tight beads on normal (but wide) rims that I am currently using

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on March 17, 2016, 09:39:24 pm
Panracer make a tubeless repair kit for fixing punctures that doesn't require raking the wheel or tyre off the bike. Been around a while and work great, not that I've had punctures to fix with tubeless other than 2 on mtn bike over a 10 year period.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on March 17, 2016, 11:46:03 pm
I had a friend staying over last week.  He'd tried a 'ghetto tubeless' setup on his road bike, then crit raced it. 

The tyre rolled off on a hairpin.  My friend looked rather bruised and bloodied.

Quelle surprise.

out of interest, is the "ghetto tubeless" setup a non-tubeless rim plus a tubeless tyre on it? or neither of them tubeless? :o
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on March 18, 2016, 11:27:16 am
Just an update on my latest tubeless experiment.   
When Schwalbe recently launched their marathon tubeless tyre (Marathon Supreme TL easy 35mm to be precise) .   I couldn't resist giving them a go.   I'm using them on my non tubeless mavic a319 rims on my commuter bike.   I sealed the rims with 2 wraps of Stan's yellow tape and used Stan's 29er rim strips to pack out the well of the rim to help the tyres seat.   I'm also using a scoop full of Stan's sealant in each tyre.   I was able to get both tyres on the rims easily enough without tyre levers.  The rear seemed a lot looser than the front.   The front seated and inflated with just a track pump.   The rear was much more problematic and I ended up needing both another 2 wraps of Stan's tape and the use of a ghetto pop bottle inflator to get it to seat.   I'm guessing that the rear was harder to seat just because it was a slightly looser fit on the rim.   
In use the tyres feel great,  feel nice and plush,  seem to roll really well and are noticeably quieter than the older tubed supremes,   I'm running them at 55/60psi front/rear .   So far so good!
They generally hold air fine and don't need topping up however every so often,  maybe once a week or so, I'll return to my bike to find one of the tyres has - in the space of a few hours - lost most of its air and is down to 20psi ish.   This is a right PITA  as it mostly seems to happen while my bike is parked at work so I have to re inflate with my mini pump.   Once inflated again it will be fine for another week or so.   

I'm guessing it's losing air from the tyre seat as there's no evidence of any sealant anywhere,  and I'm guessing that this is the price to pay for using non tubeless rims??

Now seriously thinking of some tubeless rims,  but which ones?  Stan's Grails or Velocity Ailerons are the first choice bit I'm also wondering if a 29er MTB rim like Stan's Crest would be an option as I quite like the low profile look,  but I don't know if they will cope with 60psi ?

Anyone got any experience of any of these rims?  And thoughts on using an MTB rim with the 35mm marathon tubeless?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on March 18, 2016, 11:36:48 am
I've been using Stan's Grail rims for a year, with Hutchinson Sector 28 tyres. Minimal loss of air - well, my idea of minimal anyway, since I pump them up before each ride and it varies from 1-2 psi 'needed' after a day, to 5 psi after 4-5 days. That's with pressures at 70 & 80 psi, front/rear. All four tyres I've fitted on the Grails have gone on without levers (and I'm far from expert, having only been cycling 18 months) and all four have inflated first time with a track pump.

So, I have no comparators, but the Grails, with those tyres, seem to work very well in all respects.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on March 18, 2016, 02:10:01 pm
Panracer make a tubeless repair kit for fixing punctures that doesn't require raking the wheel or tyre off the bike. Been around a while and work great, not that I've had punctures to fix with tubeless other than 2 on mtn bike over a 10 year period.

I now have one of these kits, it's Weldite branded
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on March 22, 2016, 10:54:52 am
I've been using Stan's Grail rims for a year, with Hutchinson Sector 28 tyres. Minimal loss of air - well, my idea of minimal anyway, since I pump them up before each ride and it varies from 1-2 psi 'needed' after a day, to 5 psi after 4-5 days. That's with pressures at 70 & 80 psi, front/rear. All four tyres I've fitted on the Grails have gone on without levers (and I'm far from expert, having only been cycling 18 months) and all four have inflated first time with a track pump.

So, I have no comparators, but the Grails, with those tyres, seem to work very well in all respects.

Thanks,   the grails are certainly the front runners at the mo.   I'm using Stan's rims (alpha 340) on another bike and have had no issues with those.   
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Karla on March 22, 2016, 12:16:56 pm
I had a friend staying over last week.  He'd tried a 'ghetto tubeless' setup on his road bike, then crit raced it. 

The tyre rolled off on a hairpin.  My friend looked rather bruised and bloodied.

Quelle surprise.

out of interest, is the "ghetto tubeless" setup a non-tubeless rim plus a tubeless tyre on it? or neither of them tubeless? :o

A non-tubeless tyre (Conti GP4000S) on a rim that might or might not have been tubeless, I'm not sure.  I think the comment was something along the lines of "It's not officially tubeless but it's designed to be used like this." 

Hmmm, I'll take that one with a very big pinch of salt - and would that be the same salt he's rubbing in his wounds?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on March 22, 2016, 12:43:12 pm
was he racing for the Darwin's trophy?.. some people like to learn the hard way
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on March 22, 2016, 09:51:07 pm
I hope he didn't bring half a dozen people down behind him!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tedshred on April 15, 2016, 12:29:19 pm
I am hoping to embark on the tubeless adventure when my new wheels arrive next week.

The only snag appears to be sourcing some tyres.  I am having real trouble finding some Schwalbe Pro One 25mm tyres.

Any suggestions welcome (I would like to go with the Schwalbe as I like the clincher version).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on April 15, 2016, 03:28:29 pm
Use the German online sites like Rose bikes or bike24. You can select English.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on April 15, 2016, 05:48:17 pm
A small tale to encourage the lurkers...

Last weekend as I was about to turn right onto the excellent mid canal cycle path into Lincoln, on the Bomber County 200 ride, I had to short cut across some roadside crap, to avoid a car coming way too fast, and in that crap was some glass....

The sector 28 front went psst psst psst and when it's obvious like that I stop and put a finger on the hole to give it the best chance to seal...  It was a really nasty cut, but seal it did, though at quite a reduced pressure.

I had a spare folding clincher and a couple of tubes in my bag, BUT I have never actually used it, since the tubeless has always got me round... So I carried on with the reduced pressure tubeless.

So I completed the last 50 km or so, and drove off to a travelodge in preparation for Sunday's Ironbridge 200.

Overnight I had added quite a bit more pressure so it was nearly how I always have it, but once I started riding Sunday morning it went psst psst psst again, in the first two or three kms, so I finger sealed it again, and am pleased to confirm that I completed the entire ride successfully...

 I've replaced the tyre now, cos I'm not a fan of sticky internal patches, which never seem to stay in place, but I'm happy to prove the efficacy of tubeless again....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on April 15, 2016, 07:31:21 pm
Use the German online sites like Rose bikes or bike24. You can select English.

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-pro-one-evo-osc-tl-easy-25-622-folding-497909      have used this shop.  Good
https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/schwalbe-pro-one-evo-road-tyre-hs-462-folding-tyre/aid:870785    have used.  Expensive
http://www.starbike.com/en/schwalbe-pro-one/      have used.  Good.  V good for spokes and wheel building
https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=62612;menu=1000,4,22,35     have used often.  Good
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Schwalbe/Pro-One-Evolution-MicroSkin-OneStar-Faltreifen-Modell-2016-p45634/      have not used

Be sure to check you are ordering 25mm tubeless, and this years model of tyre - which is slightly better

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on April 15, 2016, 07:54:39 pm
Use the German online sites like Rose bikes or bike24. You can select English.

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-pro-one-evo-osc-tl-easy-25-622-folding-497909      have used this shop.  Good
https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/schwalbe-pro-one-evo-road-tyre-hs-462-folding-tyre/aid:870785    have used.  Expensive
http://www.starbike.com/en/schwalbe-pro-one/      have used.  Good.  V good for spokes and wheel building
https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=62612;menu=1000,4,22,35     have used often.  Good
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Schwalbe/Pro-One-Evolution-MicroSkin-OneStar-Faltreifen-Modell-2016-p45634/      have not used

Be sure to check you are ordering 25mm tubeless, and this years model of tyre - which is slightly better

"PRO" is tubeless, and this year's.

Anything else isn't.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on April 15, 2016, 08:22:14 pm
I am hoping to embark on the tubeless adventure when my new wheels arrive next week.

The only snag appears to be sourcing some tyres.  I am having real trouble finding some Schwalbe Pro One 25mm tyres.

Any suggestions welcome (I would like to go with the Schwalbe as I like the clincher version).
How come your not going 28c Ted?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on April 15, 2016, 08:51:12 pm
I've now done about 250 miles on the Schwalbe S-One on the rear of my Dirty Disco. So far, it's all good.
The tyre went on the rim fairly easily with the long plastic tyre lever (Topeak).
Washing-up liquid and CO2 were needed to seat the beads.
I started off running the tyre at 85psi, the maximum recommended and equivalent to what I'd run the previous 28mm GP4 Season at.
Over the course of a few rides, I've dropped it to 70 psi and I think that I'll go lower, perhaps to 60psi in due course. I weigh 70-71kg and I usually have a 1-2kg saddle bag.
On rough surfaces the ride has been fantastic and it's getting better as I drop the pressure. I've even taken the tyre off-road  ;).
So far, I can't feel that the drag has increased as the pressure has been reduced.

On Velocity Aleron rins, the tyre measures 32mm at 70 psi  :o.

Pressure loss has been about the same as the front GP4 Season and that's with less than the recommended amount of sealant. I'm waiting for my LBS to get some more sealant for me.

Limited experience but I'm very pleased so far.
It looks like I'll be binning the front tyre soon due to cuts in the tread (8500+ miles so mustn't grumble) and I know already what I'm going to get.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tedshred on April 15, 2016, 09:16:14 pm

How come your not going 28c Ted?



I am now.  Gave up trying to find 25mm tyres . Everyone seems to be out of stock.  I then remembered that I had 28s on when I fitted the mudguards so they ought to fit ok.  They should also give a nicer ride which will be important on my fixed odyssey.

One thing I did see somewhere in my investigations was mention of a 75kg weight limit.  Not sure if this is right but it might explain some of Tippers' misadventures  :o

Looking forward to trying it all out in time for Green & Yellow Fields.  Fitting on to DT Swiss R460. If it means not having to get my spanner out every time I have a visitation I will be mighty pleased  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on April 17, 2016, 06:10:51 pm
The Hutchinson Intensive 25mm have now done 2100km or so (actually a bit more, some rides were not logged) and I've had yet another puncture that the sealant couldn't cope with.  Let's call it a "big hole".  "big" is 2mm+ but it's relative

 I tried to fix it "in the field" with the Weldite external patch kit.  This amazing kit comes with a tube of rubber glue, a knife, two special tools and some strips of rubber coated string.  The basic idea is that the string is poked into the hole with the tools.  First attempt didn't work at all, inflation blew out the string.  Second attempt worked to some extent and I rode for another 30 minutes before the patching string ripped itself out.  Third attempt was made more difficult to cope with as by now I am out of CO2 carts.  Eventually managed to get the tyre reseated by pumping very very fast.  Dunno how good the third repair is but I am home now.  The ride was cut short

There seem to be a load of nicks in the tyres now.  I wonder if they will do one of these "big holes" every 50 miles or so now?  If so I will have to part company with the Hutchinson Intensive option.  They are supposed to be "heavy" "winter" tyres.  Maybe that doesn't include durability.   They aren't fast tyres, the grip is good but they are narrow even on wide rims. 

Trouble is,  I'm not sure that the Schwalbe tyres will work ok on my non standard H Son Plus rims.  So it might be back to clichers
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on April 18, 2016, 09:44:09 am
Had to fix a broken spoke at the weekend. 

Was dreading it but in the end it wasn't that hard, and it helped me to learn more about how the tubeless setup works, as my tyres were put on by the guy who built my wheels.

I tried to get the new spoke in to the old nipple without taking the tyre off, but inevitably it didn't work and the nipple got lost inside the rim, so the tyre and yellow tape had to come off. 

I'd been meaning to take the tyre off anyway as I wanted to check the sealant, not having done so in that tyre since before PBP.  I was pleasantly surprised to see that there was still plenty in there.  I was also pleasantly surprised to seet that there was little evidence of punctures having been fixed by the sealant (ie no rubber string-balls sticking to the inside of the tyre) so it looked like I'd not had too much need of the sealant recently and that the sealant lasts a lot longer if you don't get many punctures.

I then peeled the tape off, carefully, as I was going to try to re-use it.  There were two layers on the wheel so I had to unwrap about 1.25 layers to get to the spoke hole.  Fixed the spoke, and managed to re-fit the old tape.  I suspect that the advice is not to do this, but it was easier and it seemed to stick ok.  I expect that when the tyre is pumped up, the pressure will help to hold it in place. 

I put the tyre back on, pumped it back up  with the track pump.  As ever, this worked smoothly with no need to faff around with soapy water sprays or similar, just three or four swift pumps and the tyre snapped back on to the rim. 

I'm finding tubeless works really well for me.  I've just had another set of new wheels delivered (Kinlin XR-31 rims) and I have another set in the garage which I've recently discovered are tubeless ready (Velocity A23), so I've ordered the bits to set them up as well.  I have a box of tubes in the garage which I am beginning to think I may never have to use! 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on April 18, 2016, 04:34:37 pm
Trouble is,  I'm not sure that the Schwalbe tyres will work ok on my non standard H Son Plus rims.  So it might be back to clichers

Non-standard?
My H + Son Archetypes seem to be fine with the Schwalbe One tubeless, both last year's and the new "TL easy" version, although bizarrely the latter was less easy to get seated on the rim.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on April 18, 2016, 06:47:24 pm
The Hutchinson Intensive 25mm have now done 2100km or so (actually a bit more, some rides were not logged) and I've had yet another puncture that the sealant couldn't cope with.  Let's call it a "big hole".  "big" is 2mm+ but it's relative

 I tried to fix it "in the field" with the Weldite external patch kit.  This amazing kit comes with a tube of rubber glue, a knife, two special tools and some strips of rubber coated string.  The basic idea is that the string is poked into the hole with the tools.  First attempt didn't work at all, inflation blew out the string.  Second attempt worked to some extent and I rode for another 30 minutes before the patching string ripped itself out.  Third attempt was made more difficult to cope with as by now I am out of CO2 carts.  Eventually managed to get the tyre reseated by pumping very very fast.  Dunno how good the third repair is but I am home now.  The ride was cut short

There seem to be a load of nicks in the tyres now.  I wonder if they will do one of these "big holes" every 50 miles or so now?  If so I will have to part company with the Hutchinson Intensive option.  They are supposed to be "heavy" "winter" tyres.  Maybe that doesn't include durability.   They aren't fast tyres, the grip is good but they are narrow even on wide rims. 

Trouble is,  I'm not sure that the Schwalbe tyres will work ok on my non standard H Son Plus rims.  So it might be back to clichers

Sector 28s my boy !!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on April 18, 2016, 07:31:23 pm
..f so I will have to part company with the Hutchinson Intensive option.  They are supposed to be "heavy" "winter" tyres.  Maybe that doesn't include durability.   They aren't fast tyres, the grip is good but they are narrow even on wide rims. 

Trouble is,  I'm not sure that the Schwalbe tyres will work ok on my non standard H Son Plus rims.  So it might be back to clichers

Sector 28s my boy !!

Unfortunately the Ridley won't do bigger than 25mm with guards.   Which is a shame, I like 28mm
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on April 18, 2016, 07:32:35 pm
Trouble is,  I'm not sure that the Schwalbe tyres will work ok on my non standard H Son Plus rims.  So it might be back to clichers

Non-standard?
My H + Son Archetypes seem to be fine with the Schwalbe One tubeless, both last year's and the new "TL easy" version, although bizarrely the latter was less easy to get seated on the rim.

ok well that's good news.  I might join the queue of people trying to get hold of some 25mm Schwalbe Ones
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on April 18, 2016, 07:39:21 pm
..f so I will have to part company with the Hutchinson Intensive option.  They are supposed to be "heavy" "winter" tyres.  Maybe that doesn't include durability.   They aren't fast tyres, the grip is good but they are narrow even on wide rims. 

Trouble is,  I'm not sure that the Schwalbe tyres will work ok on my non standard H Son Plus rims.  So it might be back to clichers



Sector 28s my boy !!

Unfortunately the Ridley won't do bigger than 25mm with guards.   Which is a shame, I like 28mm

Just me and you then Mikey. My Sector 28s are proving a very reliable and nice riding tyre.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on April 19, 2016, 01:10:24 pm
..f so I will have to part company with the Hutchinson Intensive option.  They are supposed to be "heavy" "winter" tyres.  Maybe that doesn't include durability.   They aren't fast tyres, the grip is good but they are narrow even on wide rims. 

Trouble is,  I'm not sure that the Schwalbe tyres will work ok on my non standard H Son Plus rims.  So it might be back to clichers



Sector 28s my boy !!

Unfortunately the Ridley won't do bigger than 25mm with guards.   Which is a shame, I like 28mm

Just me and you then Mikey. My Sector 28s are proving a very reliable and nice riding tyre.

Me too, don't think about them really, which is really what I want out of a tyre, although I've only done 2000km on them so far. Probably need to think about checking the sealant, but if it isn't broke....  :-\
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on April 19, 2016, 01:12:34 pm
And me. 12,000km and no issues with Sector 28s as yet.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on April 19, 2016, 01:15:59 pm
So how often should I check the sealant?

Bearing in my mind, I HATE fettling, bikes are for riding not pissing around taking apart and then wondering why it won't go back together without  a hammer someone who knows what they're doing.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on April 19, 2016, 01:24:37 pm
So how often should I check the sealant?


You can hear it sloshing about if you shake the wheel from side to side a bit (from having been static). You - well, I at least - can't hear it if you rotate the wheel, but a rapid side to side will produce liquid sounds unless it's very low indeed. I vaguely tested this when replacing a tyre (due to wear) and I could reliably hear as little as 20ml, but the 'from static' bit is important so that the sealant is concentrated in one place. Easy and quick to do.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on April 19, 2016, 08:01:24 pm
So how often should I check the sealant?

Bearing in my mind, I HATE fettling, bikes are for riding not pissing around taking apart and then wondering why it won't go back together without  a hammer someone who knows what they're doing.

I usually check mine about once every 4 months or so. So late Autumn, coming out of Winter, and early Summer
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on April 20, 2016, 09:19:27 am
Thanks for that, I could hear sloshing last night, its been three months so I think I'll leave it until the end of May, bikes going to be busy in May, and then maybe fit those milkit valves.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on May 14, 2016, 07:14:08 pm
Ok update and a useful tip

My rear tyre also had a malfunction.  I think the couple of problems I've had recently are a combination of 1) hitting a largish sharp and 2) the sealant needed topping up

I've patched the not-very-big-but-did-not-want-to-seal hole in the rear and it is fine again

Meanwhile the external patch on the front tyre I've scraped it flat as possible with a sharp knife and a rasp

So the bike is looking ok to ride again.  I have also restocked co2 inflators

now for the

TIP of the WEEK

If you want to remove the valve cores to add more sealant, a size 11 spoke key works great.  I've previously used point nosed pliers
Before you say "but I don't have an size 11 spoke key!  My spokes are 14 gauge!"  If you have a cheap tool kit with a round spoke key tool then you probably do
the thing I mean is this

(https://merlincycles-img.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/productImage_1280_1024_ffffff_image-jpeg/5833_icetoolz_multi_spoke_key.jpg)

they are standard with the Aldi/Lidli /In motion products tool kits in the little plastic suitcase
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on May 14, 2016, 07:31:35 pm
and another thing

I have a new bike that will work best with 30 to 33mm tyres.  I'd like fast/race ones.  The only option in tubeless in the size slightly bigger than 28mm with a fast compound is the Schwalbe S-One, which is 30mm

Sadly not available anywhere at the moment.  I have "alerts" set up on a couple of german sites
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: GrahamG on May 24, 2016, 10:28:58 am
Rather than start a new thread..... Tyre deformity - anyone had this with tubeless??

I've got a Hutchinson Intensive on the back of the fixed after successfully doing a conversion with a rim strip, only this winter's (pitifully low) mileage on of ~500, and there's a slight deformity on one part of the tyre with a bulge about 15mm square but no visible damage whatsoever and the tiny bump it creates isn't noticeable whilst riding. Would you soldier on with this in the proper cheapskate manner or do you think this is something that really wants changing?  It's by the valve where the rim strip is really fat so could potentially interfere with the bead, I'm wondering if this has caused it.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tiermat on May 24, 2016, 10:31:06 am
and another thing

I have a new bike that will work best with 30 to 33mm tyres.  I'd like fast/race ones.  The only option in tubeless in the size slightly bigger than 28mm with a fast compound is the Schwalbe S-One, which is 30mm

Sadly not available anywhere at the moment.  I have "alerts" set up on a couple of german sites

If it is road you are after you might struggle, but I know that the G-Ones are available in 33mm (if and when you can get hold of them!)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: frankly frankie on May 24, 2016, 05:56:20 pm
TIP of the WEEK

If you want to remove the valve cores to add more sealant, a size 11 spoke key works great.  I've previously used point nosed pliers
Before you say "but I don't have an size 11 spoke key!  My spokes are 14 gauge!"  If you have a cheap tool kit with a round spoke key tool then you probably do
the thing I mean is this
(https://merlincycles-img.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/productImage_1280_1024_ffffff_image-jpeg/5833_icetoolz_multi_spoke_key.jpg)

Seems a little OTT when this fails to register on my kitchen scale.   :thumbsup:   Came free with a Conti inner tube as I recall.
(http://www.aukadia.net/pix/core-tool.jpg)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on May 25, 2016, 08:12:00 am
Went to change the tyres on the carbon tubeless by design rims and found it extraordinarily difficult to get them to unseat. 

Is there a technique that I should know for the future?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on May 25, 2016, 10:20:31 pm
Just to press hard on the tyre with two thumbs fairly close to the rim. It gets easier as more is unseated. Repeat other side.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on May 26, 2016, 07:14:27 am
Phil, I thought that is what you would say.  I am glad they are tubeless and won't need changing very often!!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sg37409 on June 03, 2016, 01:08:17 pm
Taken the plunge based on the experiences here.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: ElyDave on June 03, 2016, 05:18:48 pm
Im seriously considering it for the MTB once I've got the recumbent build out of the way, recent P*#ncture experience says I don't want to be trying to change those tyres at all often. Three broken levers and much swearing required
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on June 07, 2016, 02:56:38 pm
Just replaced my tubeless tyres ahead of the Wild Atlantic way in 10 days. Top tip when you replace rim tape. If you've forgotten to make a hole and refit valve before fitting tyre, do not get lazy. and attempt to do this with tyre still half on rim. You will not the get hole right, it'll be too big and at an angle to the valve, air will piss out when you attempt to inflate. This will cause you to have to remove tyre and said tape and do it properly the second time round. Second time round tyre will inflate, and beads lock into rim grooves with ease. Proper preperation prevents piss poor performance / results.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on June 07, 2016, 06:06:07 pm
Just to press hard on the tyre with two thumbs fairly close to the rim. It gets easier as more is unseated. Repeat other side.

Don't forget to let the air out first;)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on June 07, 2016, 11:18:40 pm
Just to press hard on the tyre with two thumbs fairly close to the rim. It gets easier as more is unseated. Repeat other side.

Don't forget to let the air out first;)

Drumroll ta da :-)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sg37409 on June 12, 2016, 11:38:43 pm
Taken the plunge based on the experiences here.

1st ride today on Schwalbe pro-ones. They seem fast and comfortable: I had them at 80 psi, over some pretty (prolonged) bad surfaces.
I had left them at 100 psi the night before, and found them at about 75 this morning. 

Is this deflation rate normal ?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 13, 2016, 06:06:13 am
Yes, but it gets better over a few days as it all seals up (if you rotate the wheel)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: GrahamG on June 13, 2016, 01:39:05 pm
Rather than start a new thread..... Tyre deformity - anyone had this with tubeless??

I've got a Hutchinson Intensive on the back of the fixed after successfully doing a conversion with a rim strip, only this winter's (pitifully low) mileage on of ~500, and there's a slight deformity on one part of the tyre with a bulge about 15mm square but no visible damage whatsoever and the tiny bump it creates isn't noticeable whilst riding. Would you soldier on with this in the proper cheapskate manner or do you think this is something that really wants changing?  It's by the valve where the rim strip is really fat so could potentially interfere with the bead, I'm wondering if this has caused it.

Well this tyre failed - tried to pump it up to 100psi just as a tester and it's kaput. Bought it probably 3+ years ago from ACyles but long gone are the details, that'll teach me to horde tyres when on sale and not fit them until WAAAAY after the warranty period is up!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tiermat on June 22, 2016, 10:39:45 am
One tip I have been reminded of, is for the fitting etc somewhere warm. The front I did in the garage, with the heater on. The rear I have had problems with (sealant leaking out round the bead etc) until I took it out into the garden and left the wheel in the sunshine while the sealant leaked out and set.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: GrahamG on June 23, 2016, 08:07:21 am
A follow up on my tyre failure after fitting another tyre - to anyone converting a non 'tubeless compatible' rim, make sure the tyre is able to seat evenly all around the rim, which I've found impossible to do with a velocity dyad rim (rim strip + stans tape to build up the centre around spoke holes). I now believe the tyre failure to have come from a low point in the tyre resulting in a pressure point where it bumped back up level eventually weakening the casing. The new tyre has that same low point just in advance (rotationally) of where the last one failed. Ordered an new rim to just sort it properly, you live and learn.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on August 22, 2016, 10:10:59 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp6FoItXgAA7t2v.jpg)
These finally turned up

And I put them on the bike
https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/08/22/taking-the-s-ones-for-a-ride/
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on August 22, 2016, 10:37:24 am
I'm jealous! My bike came with the "Performance line" non-tubeless version of the S-One which OEMs use to shave a few pennies :(
You do like a high pressure though, I'm running mine at 60psi and I bet I weight a lot more than you!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on August 22, 2016, 02:17:21 pm
I'm jealous! My bike came with the "Performance line" non-tubeless version of the S-One which OEMs use to shave a few pennies :(
You do like a high pressure though, I'm running mine at 60psi and I bet I weight a lot more than you!

I weigh 84kg, run normal (non tubeless) 28mm/25mm at 90psi, 23mm at 120.
The bike did have Strada Bianca 30mm tyres on it - which are *lovely* btw - the minimum pressure for these is 90 psi

So 80psi is "less".  Might try reducing it slowly see how it goes

One thing I didn't do (it was a busy weekend and finding time for tyre fitting was difficult) was weigh the wheels before and after to see how much lighter they are.
Probably not much in it.  According to the manufactures data, the S-One + sealant = 330g+60g = 390g, Strada Bianca 30mm + inner = 358g + 125g = 483g
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on August 22, 2016, 04:15:07 pm
Purely for comparison (I'm definitely not trying to tell a vastly more experienced rider how to suck eggs)
I'll admit to 110Kg on a very good day.
I run Schwalbe One 28mm, original tubed version at 75/80 F/R.
I jumped on my new bike with the S-Ones and thought, hey the tyres look about right and was very surprised when I put the track pump on them and read 60PSI. I tried them at that and it seems to work. I doubt I would have gone that low otherwise.

Of course, I might just have a very poor pressure gauge!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on August 24, 2016, 01:20:06 pm
I might give the Schwalbes one more go but I'm less & less convinced by tubeless (unless run at significantly lower than usual pressures)

I was getting (the symptoms of a) slow puncture - repeated deflation to quite low pressures when bike left standing or hanging from hook and while riding, but never quite proper 'flat'.

After a bit of investigation, removal of flint shards, topping up with sealant, re-inflation I found that even quite small holes, although they would seal at lower pressure would 'blow' when re-inflated above 80 psi.

Shame because at my weight, for (the supposedly optimum) 15% tyre drop on 28mm tyres, I'm looking at 90psi on the back - and 110psi for 25mm.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on August 29, 2016, 06:38:48 pm
I've done ~1800 miles on the Schwalbe S-One on the rear of my Dirty Disco (that's the bike  ;)). The riding has been a mix of utility pootling, commuting, faster rides and there has been a lot of off-road on trails and the like.
The positives have been that the tyre rides superbly at 60-70psi (I'm ~70kg), grips very well and rolls freely. It also appears to be wearing well (ie minimally).
Downsides ? Riding back to MCR from Chester recently the tyre kept going flat for no apparent reason. Pump and ride tactics got me home since ICn'tBA trying to deal with the problem on the ride and, truth be told, I was a little apprehensive about "dealing" with the problem in case I couldn't get the tyre back on.
At home there was no sign of where the air was leaking out when I put the wheel and tyre in water but it would lose most of the pressure overnight. I took the tyre off and saw that the sealant had dried up. After scraping the old stuff out (Schwalbe's recommended Doc Blue), I replaced it with Fenwicks sealant since that's what I had and the tyre inflated relatively easily after I'd seated the beads with a tube.
Happy days; great riding again and very little pressure loss, not noticeably different to a tubed tyre.
Yesterday I got another slow puncture. There was some pump and ride as well as use of CO2 cartridges so that we could finish the ride. At the pub stop just before we got home, I noticed that there was a hole in the tyre and that's where the air was coming out. It was disappointing that the sealant hadn't plugged it since the hole wasn't that big.
Back home I inserted an "anchovy" from the Genuine Innovations tubeless repair kit:- (http://www.genuineinnovations.com/us/products/tools-accessories/tubeless-repair-kit.php)
and pumped the tyre up. It held pressure overnight and I test rode it this afternoon. I also topped up the sealant.
It seems to have worked although I'm not sure what state the previous sealant is in.
I'm not yet fully convinced by road tubeless but I'm going to persevere but I'm always going to have a tube or two with me for roadside repairs.. My "experiences" have taught me that getting the tyre on and off isn't a problem and, it seems, that the repair kit works brilliantly.

FWIW, I got the kit on the basis of a review on roadcc:- http://road.cc/content/review/183575-genuine-innovations-tubeless-tire-repair-kit
Forcing the "anchovy" through the tyre takes a little courage and some effort but it seems to work well and it's much quicker than taking a tyre off to replace a tube.

I'm going on tour next week so that bike will be carrying luggage. I hope everything works out. I'm sure it will. If not, I'll have an old tyre with me as back-up.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on August 30, 2016, 06:58:26 pm
I had my first tubeless failure in 18 months after a couple of hours of the Transcontinental last month.  It was a big puncture that would seal to begin with, but then blow a few hours later only to reseal at about 30psi. 
On a day ride it would have been no problem - I could have taken the tyre off at home and patched it inside - but on the road I'd have needed to have new rim tape (offset spoke drillings) and CO2, neither of which I had. 
I managed to get an anchovy in (first time I'd done it and it is a bit frightening, stabbing your tyre with a metal spike), and I thought I had it fixed, but it blew after about 50km the following morning, and I was back to ~30psi. 
I persevered for 3 days, each time thinking I'd fixed it but, after the anchovy had failed, I bought a new tubed tyre.

I had a failure of sorts yesterday on a club run.  I noticed my rear tyre was slightly soft and borrowed a clubmate's pump (as I only had a small, emergency one).  It was a Leyzne and it unscrewed my valve core.  So I lost the seal and had to put a tube in.  I don't blame the tyre for that, though!

Despite these reverses, I'm still sticking with tubeless.  After half an hour of yesterday's ride I had a bad puncture in my front tyre.  It lost quite a bit of sealant but, after a few seconds of holding it with the puncture pressed down on the road, it did seal.  So it took all of a minute rather than ~15 minutes to replace a tube.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on August 30, 2016, 07:20:57 pm
I managed to get an anchovy in (first time I'd done it and it is a bit frightening, stabbing your tyre with a metal spike),

I'm with you on that Frank; I had to take a deep breath and then "plunge"  ...............


I had a failure of sorts yesterday on a club run.  I noticed my rear tyre was slightly soft and borrowed a clubmate's pump (as I only had a small, emergency one).  It was a Leyzne and it unscrewed my valve core.  So I lost the seal and had to put a tube in.  I don't blame the tyre for that, though!


That happened to me as well on Sunday. My pump's a Lezyne and I managed, I think, two pump and rides before it unscrewed the valve core and I had to resort to COs. The dispenser just plugs onto the valve.
I've actually got a bit of a dilemna now. Do I take the Lezyne on tour or should I go back to the Topeak (Morph of some sort) with its crappy plastic bits ? If I can find it, I'll take the Topeak.

In other news, the anchovy is still holding pressure; no discernible loss after standing overnight and then commuting 22 miles today.
I still haven't put the tyre and wheel in water to see if there are any small leaks. Maybe at the weekend.
A spare tyre and some tubes are going on tour with me  ::-).

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on August 30, 2016, 08:29:35 pm
I did use an external repair kit (aka the anchovie ) on my tyre and it didn't work that well

First attempt blew out after only a few km.  Second attempt was much more durable but made the slick road tyres have a bump on every rotation.  Even after a few days use and trimming it more closely it still was noticably rough.

Next time something like that happens I will be carrying a puncture repair kit and I'll attempt to fix it with that.  I can confidently get the tyre on and off with a bead jack

Also had the thing with the dried out sealant too. Just need to keep a careful eye on the calendar to top it up every 3 months
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on August 30, 2016, 09:21:01 pm
If your Lezyne pump is like mine, one end of the hose can be slipped over the valve rather than screwed on, eliminating the risk of unscrewing the valve core.

Alternatively, just make sure your valve cores are tightly screwed in before using the pump. You only need to check this once. Also use the air-bleed button (ABS) before unscrewing the hose, and/or unscrew the hose from the pump before unscrewing from the valve.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on August 31, 2016, 02:12:45 pm

FWIW, I got the kit on the basis of a review on roadcc:- http://road.cc/content/review/183575-genuine-innovations-tubeless-tire-repair-kit


I got the same based on that review, I used one in the rear about 1800km ago and have had no trouble with it.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikenrrd on August 31, 2016, 08:26:05 pm
If your Lezyne pump is like mine, one end of the hose can be slipped over the valve rather than screwed on, eliminating the risk of unscrewing the valve core.

Alternatively, just make sure your valve cores are tightly screwed in before using the pump. You only need to check this once. Also use the air-bleed button (ABS) before unscrewing the hose, and/or unscrew the hose from the pump before unscrewing from the valve.

Wrap the valve core threads in PTFE tape. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 01, 2016, 03:08:31 pm
Cheapest place for Schwalbe S One is now starbike, 41.90 Euros
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sg37409 on September 01, 2016, 03:45:06 pm
OK, not Starbucks, which is what I read at first glance :-)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on September 04, 2016, 10:06:45 pm
Purely for comparison (I'm definitely not trying to tell a vastly more experienced rider how to suck eggs)
I'll admit to 110Kg on a very good day.
I run Schwalbe One 28mm, original tubed version at 75/80 F/R.
I jumped on my new bike with the S-Ones and thought, hey the tyres look about right and was very surprised when I put the track pump on them and read 60PSI. I tried them at that and it seems to work. I doubt I would have gone that low otherwise.

Of course, I might just have a very poor pressure gauge!

I took my Roadhouse out today and in light of this thread I put the pressures up to 65/70 from 60/60. It still floated along over nasty old tarmac and chipseal but did feel a bit snappier. I realise that's not even approaching conclusive, but I thought it was worth sticking with.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bunker on September 09, 2016, 07:58:04 am
1- How do you know how much sealant to put in? I see anywhere between 30ml and 70ml being put in to 28mm tyres.
2- When you top up (every 3 months being mentioned) do you remove all the old sealant and start again or do you just add more?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on September 09, 2016, 01:11:20 pm
1- How do you know how much sealant to put in? I see anywhere between 30ml and 70ml being put in to 28mm tyres.
2- When you top up (every 3 months being mentioned) do you remove all the old sealant and start again or do you just add more?

1) I put 50 ml in my 28's, so slap bang in the middle.
2) Just changed mine this week after 8 months, the rear was ok-ish, the front was coral. I removed all the old sealant.

It was all much easier than I was anticipating, less than 30 mins to do both, quite impressed - I hate fettling my bikes. I did it without removing the valve cores, just unmounted the tyre, wiped out the old goo with kitchen roll, put most of the tyre back on, added the sealant using a purloined syringe with a bit of fish tank pipe on it fed into the last bit of open tyre at the top of the wheel, finished mounting the tyre and inflated first go with the track pump.

Lost a bit of pressure after the first night, topped them up and spun the wheel, they seem good now.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: inappropriate_bike on September 14, 2016, 08:51:42 pm
I have a new tubeless problem this week  :-\

Both wheels developed leaks around the tubeless valves, caused by (it appears) cracks in the rim tape.

Fortunately I discovered this at home rather than on a Welsh mountain - currently cleaning them out and will pop an inner tube in since I don't have time to fix them properly this weekend.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bunker on September 15, 2016, 11:18:13 am
I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 15, 2016, 12:47:55 pm
I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.

you don't mention it but with that sort of rim you need to use a rim strip

try it at whatever pressure you fancy, see what happens.  Remember you can't snakebite the tyres from too low pressure
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bunker on September 15, 2016, 01:22:03 pm
I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.

you don't mention it but with that sort of rim you need to use a rim strip

try it at whatever pressure you fancy, see what happens.  Remember you can't snakebite the tyres from too low pressure

Whats the difference between rim strip and rim tape? I used 2 layers of 21mm Stans tape (like your wordpress article) and the separate Stans Valves. Did I need something different?

Thx
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 17, 2016, 03:21:01 pm
I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.

you don't mention it but with that sort of rim you need to use a rim strip

try it at whatever pressure you fancy, see what happens.  Remember you can't snakebite the tyres from too low pressure

Whats the difference between rim strip and rim tape? I used 2 layers of 21mm Stans tape (like your wordpress article) and the separate Stans Valves. Did I need something different?

Thx

Tubeless tape is to seal the holes from the spoke nipples to make the rim airtight

A rim strip is to alter the internal shape of the rim to make it less likely to burp

The rim strip looks like this

(http://static.jensonusa.com/images/Default-Image/Zoom/9/TU402Z04.jpg)

See instructions on about converting wheels to tubeless here http://www.notubes.com/detailed_kit_instruction.aspx

I have your type of rims and I am using rim strips as I believe they are the correct adaptation

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on September 17, 2016, 08:24:17 pm
I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.

First time of mounting a fresh set of Sectors I pump them up to the max just to let them seat. After that I,let them lose air naturally. I'm heavier  than you (at the moment) and run my front rear at 70 / 75.  I've run them as low as 40 psi which is darn comfortable but you'll sense them squirm a bit on corners. So 70 / 75 it is, still fast but far more comfortable than stuff in the 87-101 range on the sidewall
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on September 21, 2016, 09:00:42 pm
More issues on the Friday's Tour.
This time there was slow pressure loss and lots of "frothing" around the valve although this was only apparent in the morning after staying in a hotel overnight. Perhaps during the day the froth was thrown off the tyre as it rotated ?
I persevered with it 'til the next but last day when I found the tyre was very flat. This was at bed-time so I pumped it up and set the alarm for an hour earlier than necessary "Just in case".
It was flat again in the morning so I spent some time in the bathroom taking the tyre off (easy), removing blue goo from the rim (easy but time and loo-paper consuming) then putting a tube in and replacing the tyre (also easy).
For the rest of the Tour, I kept the tyre at 80-90 psi compared to the 70 going down to 60psi that I'd started with; I was very conscious of snake-biting the tube given that I was carrying luggage on a rear rack and there are lots of kerbs to bump up on French and Belgian cycle paths.
The ride with the higher pressure was noticeably worse but I didn't think the tyre rolled any better. Cycling tubeless over the cobbles at the lower pressures was actually a joy even if the rim had started to bottom out towards the end (of tubeless).

I'm not sure where I go next.
I love the sensation of riding fast tyres at low pressure but I've had too many issues to be confident in the tubeless concept.
It seems that there's something missing in one or more of the tubeless components: tyre, rim, tape, valve or sealant.

At some point I need to take the tyre off and clean out the sealant properly otherwise if/when I have a puncture at the side of the road it will be incredibly messy. I only did a partial job in the hotel and even then I filled the (little) rubbish bin.

I'd welcome any feedback.

FWIW, the anchovy had held up very well and it certainly wasn't the issue with the pressure loss.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on September 21, 2016, 09:44:34 pm
You mention the rim bottoming out. Does not the need to avoid that nullify the tubeless benefit of pinch-flat resistance? Since you only get pinch flats if you run out of ‘suspension’ travel.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on September 21, 2016, 10:07:53 pm
I could (and did) "bottom" out when running tubeless. I'd have preferred not to but the pressure loss sometimes allowed it. There was no detrimental effect. Thinking about it, the pressure may well have gone below 60psi.
I really tried hard to avoid the rim "bottoming" (and did) when I'd put the tube in. I had to keep the pressure significantly higher to be sure it wouldn't happen.
Sorry if that wasn't clear from my earlier post.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on September 21, 2016, 10:51:19 pm
Your post was clear. It’s just that a rim bottoming out would scare me even with tubeless, so I thought tubeless wouldn’t allow lower pressures in practice (due to rim damage even if you avoid a pinch flat). But you’ve done it and lived to tell the tale, so clearly tubeless does allow lower pressures. Rims are strong things, I suppose.

I have no useful suggestions for you, but I noticed the Japanese company IRC (http://www.irc-tire.com/en/bc/) has several tubeless tyres. Does anyone here use them?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on September 22, 2016, 09:54:20 pm
I have had one set of rims DT Swiss which were poorly joined and would deflate as you describe without any obvious leak. For some reason,probably because the sealant was not being flung centripetally at the leak it never stopped. Eventually I replaced the rim.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on September 22, 2016, 10:02:55 pm
Your post was clear. It’s just that a rim bottoming out would scare me even with tubeless, so I thought tubeless wouldn’t allow lower pressures in practice (due to rim damage even if you avoid a pinch flat). But you’ve done it and lived to tell the tale, so clearly tubeless does allow lower pressures. Rims are strong things, I suppose.

I have no useful suggestions for you, but I noticed the Japanese company IRC (http://www.irc-tire.com/en/bc/) has several tubeless tyres. Does anyone here use them?

I have a set of IRC tyres on my commuter.  They are fine, pleasant to ride.  They don't hold air that well and need regular pumping up. 

On the Transcontinental when I had tyre issues and my rear was down to 30psi, I bottomed out my rim on an off-road path in a forest in Switzerland.  The rim has a slight dent as a result.  I can feel it slightly when braking, but not enough to bother me. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Biggsy on September 23, 2016, 01:19:33 pm
Your post was clear. It’s just that a rim bottoming out would scare me even with tubeless, so I thought tubeless wouldn’t allow lower pressures in practice (due to rim damage even if you avoid a pinch flat). But you’ve done it and lived to tell the tale, so clearly tubeless does allow lower pressures. Rims are strong things, I suppose.

Depends what you bottom out on and how hard.  You raise a good point.  I want the tyres inflated enough to protect the rims from nasty pothole meetings, personally, but other riders may be willing to take more risk.

(Of course I try to avoid riding over nasties, but distractions do happen, etc).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ivan on September 23, 2016, 01:39:41 pm
This time there was slow pressure loss and lots of "frothing" around the valve although this was only apparent in the morning after staying in a hotel overnight.

My tubeless rear has also deflated via the valve surrounding, have put in a tube and yet to attempt resealing. Couldn't see any cracks in the rim tape. I suspect that part of the problem might be that the majority of the sealant never comes near the valve assembly when on the bike - taking the wheel off and shaking it when held horizontal might be required (as per the Stan's installation instructions) - did you try this?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 23, 2016, 02:28:17 pm

I'd welcome any feedback.


When did you last replace the sealant?  I use Stans and it seems to become less effective after a couple of months
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on September 23, 2016, 06:01:48 pm

When did you last replace the sealant?  I use Stans and it seems to become less effective after a couple of months

I put the Fenwicks sealant in the tyre around the beginning of July. It was still very "runny" when I was wiping it out in the Ibis bathroom  :-\.

This time there was slow pressure loss and lots of "frothing" around the valve although this was only apparent in the morning after staying in a hotel overnight.

My tubeless rear has also deflated via the valve surrounding, have put in a tube and yet to attempt resealing. Couldn't see any cracks in the rim tape. I suspect that part of the problem might be that the majority of the sealant never comes near the valve assembly when on the bike - taking the wheel off and shaking it when held horizontal might be required (as per the Stan's installation instructions) - did you try this?

I didn't try it and perhaps I should have. However, since I was touring with a group I didn't want to risk having to insert a tube mid-ride and hold everyone up. Plus, of course, there was lots of paper, water and soap in the bathroom. All I lost was an hour's sleep  :(.

I wasn't thrilled at bottoming out the rim prior to fitting the tube but I wasn't unduly worried. It always happened as we were riding up the sometimes not very dropped kerbs on some of the cycle-paths that we used (I'm particularly looking at you Belgium). In those instances I was riding very slowly and pulling the front wheel up and over the kerb. I couldn't hop the back wheel since I was carrying luggage on the rack.


Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on September 23, 2016, 07:42:19 pm
My tubeless setup is so old now that I replaced the tape in May. First time I made the hole for the valve too large and ir frothed when trying to inflate. So I had to redo the tape. Poke the hole from the inside with a small flat blade or sharp point if a Stanley knife from the rim towards the hub. Make sure slit is slightly narrower than valve stem.  The frothing won't be due to low pressure but due to the hole in the tape being slightly too large / mis aligned. Check the valve rubber seal on the inside as well. The Stans tubeless valves have a rubber seal that is rectangular not square, and needs to be rotated before tightening the valve to get the best seal.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on September 23, 2016, 10:22:18 pm
having recently acquired three sets of tubeless wheels with intention to go tubeless, i'm still on the fence regarding tubeless tyres. one of the reasons is the lack of good (for me) tyres on the market, another is faffing with the sealant.
i'll wait a year or so until technology improves and becomes more available/reliable.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bunker on September 23, 2016, 10:52:47 pm
My wheels have lost about 10 psi over a week. This seems reasonably normal?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 25, 2016, 11:03:46 am
My wheels have lost about 10 psi over a week. This seems reasonably normal?

I'd expect almost any newly inflated tyre to loose a small amount of pressure.  My experience with tubeless setup is that they do seem to loose more pressure than clichers with inner tubes
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 25, 2016, 11:09:08 am
latest adventures



more fascinating facts about this stuff on the blog
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tippers_kiwi on October 10, 2016, 10:03:15 am
I had another attempt at Tubeless (see #347 for the full back story) deciding to finally mount the Schwalbe S-Ones that I had received back in April a couple of weeks back.

Mounting went fine, no trouble at all other than some rather rapid pumping to get started. Ones they were seated and pumped up the air held straight off, I left them in the bike just looking nice for a week and they only lost about 5 psi in that time.

I rode the Richard Ellis Memorial 100 on them including an ECE out to 200. Fast, smooth, grippy just generally awesome. The smoothness that the 30c gave really was quite amazing.

This weekend I headed out to go and control at Maglia Rosso for Wilkyboy. About 10 km into the 50 km ride up there I suddenly heard the hiss of air....it'll be ok, it will stop in a second....come on stop already.....nope, not stopping and now staring to feel the rim on the road.....grrrrrr

Another slash through the tyre that the sealant was not able to deal with like the IRC's and the Hutchinsons  :'(

Time for me to permanently give upon the tubeless set up, it's costing me a fortune and when I spend the rest of the ride thinking I am hearing the tell tale hiss of air it's just not enjoyable.

I stand by my conclusion that the extra weight I carry (I'm 17 stone) is what causes the issue. I thought the 30c might go some way to solving that but it hasn't made a difference. Of the aprox. 20 rides I have been on with Tubeless 2 of them have not involved stopping to deal with some form of puncture/sealing issue and pumping. Compare that 2 2 pinch flats  in 3 years and it makes little sense for me to keep trying.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on October 10, 2016, 02:26:34 pm
When you hear the rush of air, it's best to jump off and take action to stop it. Either put your finger over the hole or press the hole into the road. That will stop it quicker than relying on the sealant to act on its own. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on October 10, 2016, 08:16:50 pm
I stand by my conclusion that the extra weight I carry (I'm 17 stone) is what causes the issue.

Like you I've virtually given up after another unsealed deflation, but I'm not sure it's your weight per se that causes the issue.
IMO it's the pressure that us larger riders need.
Maybe if I can shed a few more kilos I can use something less than the threshold pressure at which these things seal themselves, and without the tyres feeling 'squirelly'

When you hear the rush of air, it's best to jump off and take action to stop it. Either put your finger over the hole or press the hole into the road. That will stop it quicker than relying on the sealant to act on its own. 
  Hasn't worked for me I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on October 11, 2016, 09:51:10 am
Tyres are hard.

I probably only tried tubeless because I got two punctures on a cold day on the Anfractuous a couple of years ago and hated fixing them, then I saw that TG was using them and gave them a try.  I then had a great year on tubeless with no problems.  I found myself becoming a bit of an evangelist for tubeless.

But, in the last few months I've also had a few puncture issues.  And I also recall whole years around 2009-11 where I rode over 10,000 miles without a puncture on tubed tyres. 

So far, putting my finger over a cut, or jamming it into the road has always worked for me, haivng had to do it about a dozen times.  I'm surprised it hasn't worked for you, Pete (and jumping off the bike means weight isn't a factor) But it's a good warning as I guess one day it might not work for me. 

The reason tyres are hard is that puctures are rare but catastrophic events about which none of us has enough data on to draw valid conclusions.  So we go with hunches based on inadequate data, believe that we will always have the same results in the future and find it hard to believe that others get different results!  Actually we shouldn't be surprised, because anyone with basic statistics knowledge would tell us that was exactly what would happen.

So: 
1. Tubeless tyres are different from those with tubes
2. They stop some punctures (pinches), and self-fix most, but not all, others
3. As a result, that allows me to use much nicer tyres than I would dare use with tubes, all year round.
4. Getting off and putting your finger on can usually, but not always, stop a puncture and allow you to ride on at lower pressure
5. They are more of a faff to fit than tubed ones.

I'm carrying on with them, mainly because of points 2 and 3 but I wouldn't say they are a no-brainer and a solution to everything.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tippers_kiwi on October 12, 2016, 12:28:16 pm
I hadn't thought of jumping of to block the hole, it makes some sense though. I'm always a bit surprised that the tyres seem to cut quite so easily, especially with the S-One supposedly having a layer that resists cutting.

I think for me the advantage was your point 3. All 3 tyres I tried (IRC Formula in 25c, Hutchinson Sector 28's  and the S-One in 30c) gave a bloody fantastic ride. All very smooth yet felt quick and I was running the 25 and 28s between 10 and 15 psi lower that the tubed equivalent.

Maybe I haven't given up permanently, I might see how I feel about things when the summer comes around again but I want something I can more or less rely on (in my mind) over winter and I know the Durano Plus gives me that.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Christophe on November 13, 2016, 12:40:11 pm
I've recently built a Pugsley and gone down the tubeless route using the split tube method. Very pleased with the results so am thinking about my road bike.

Basically question is does the split tube method work on road tyres? I would be using Archetypes and would invest in tubeless tyres as understand the bead is a lot stronger but just think split tube would offer a better seal than rim tape and separate valve??
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on November 13, 2016, 01:18:33 pm
Wouldn't risk myself: remember you'll be running your road bike around 10x the pressure you would on your Pugsley
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: stevie63 on November 13, 2016, 01:51:08 pm
With the archetype rims it is really important that you tape them well and with enough layers for the tyre you are using otherwise they won't stay up. With the IRC roadlites 2 layers was enough but with Hutchinson fusion 5 all weather I have had to use 3 layers. Or course as always ymmv.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Christophe on November 13, 2016, 01:58:59 pm
Pug is on 29+ so running pressure of around 18 psi.
Was thinking double wrap of gorilla tape, split tube and larger sized schwalbe ones or almotion 700x38 running about 50-60 psi on archetypes
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on November 13, 2016, 06:55:41 pm
I wouldn't use the split tube method for tyres at road bike pressures.  Although I do have a moulded rim strip on my Archetypes, which is a similar thing

Strikes me that road bike tubeless and MTB tubeless have a lot of differences

Stuff that works well at 18psi isn't going to be so great at 50psi and if you ever do what I do and use 70 to 90 psi, forget it

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 13, 2016, 09:54:41 pm
I wouldn't use a split tube on road wheels. Tape it with some appropriate tape and use valves.

Archetypes have a sloping internal shoulder, which isn't optimal as the tyre could 'slide' down it and lose pressure, although lots of people say they're fine. Tubeless ready rims have a centre well and 'shelves' by the bead hook for security.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Christophe on November 13, 2016, 10:21:49 pm
OK thanks if I go down the tubeless route will do it proerly. Not overly worried about archetype suitability as plenty of others seem to have had success.

Setting up the Pugsley was a cinch. The tyres held full pressure for a few days before I put stans in and so far have been great.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: maxap on November 14, 2016, 11:25:43 am
I changed to tubeless yesterday.
I've got Cero AR24 wheels, not tubeless ready, but they seem to work fine. Two rounds of Stans tape fitted with Scwalbe one pro 25s. I normally ride Continental 4000 at about 100psi rear, 90 at the front. Tried the new Scwalbe on 60psi both front and back. Seemed to work on my 20km test ride. Difficult to measure the difference in the ride, but definitely feels more comfy, - I think ;-)
I'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 10, 2016, 04:56:31 pm
The 23mm Schwalbe Pro Ones have done less than 500km

I topped up the sealant a couple of weeks ago. I normally run them at 80 or 90 psi

On the way back from the pub on Wednesday, it did that hissy noise for a puncture.  It lost a lot of pressure before it stopped hissing.  I guess I was on 20 psi. I tried topping it up with a CO2 a couple of times but it didn't work, the hole just opened up again.   There was just about enough air in the tyre to ride it nervously the 10 miles home.

Today in the garage I looked at the hole.  It is about 2mm and it had already been patched from the inside with a normal inner tube patch.  I tried applying new patch. 
This didn't work.   I am guessing that the patch doesn't work as the hole is on an internal ridge or join inside the tyre - the surface isn't smooth.  Tried using the anchoive external patch kit.  This didn't work either.  After spraying a lot of sealant around the garage I gave up on the tyre.  I had a spare tubeless tyre, an old hutchinson intensive.  However that wouldn't "pop" on even with the Airshot and sprayed with soap.  Either old sealant on the tyre means it won't slide or the rim strip is kinked and stopping it working

At this stage pretty much run out of spare Stan's Sealant and patience.   Stopped for a cup of tea

Went back, removed rim strip and fitted the Hutchinson with am inner tube.

The Schwalbe tyre wasn't worn it's done really low mileage.  The hole isn't major but it won't seal automatically.  Any ideas on fixing it?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 10, 2016, 05:07:55 pm
Plug type tubeless repair kit.

Surprised at your choice of tyre for these conditions. The Pro One is a light racing tyre. I have them on autumn/spring wheels, but for now im using Hutchinson Sector 32.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 10, 2016, 06:59:49 pm
Plug type tubeless repair kit.

Surprised at your choice of tyre for these conditions. The Pro One is a light racing tyre. I have them on autumn/spring wheels, but for now im using Hutchinson Sector 32.

you're right I was  bit optimistic using them in winter/autumn
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 10, 2016, 07:11:51 pm
Well...you can use them....but as you've discovered it turns into an expensive choice that becomes more of a problem than tubed tyres, which is self-defeating.

Wiggle list Sector 32 tyres for less than £30. Apart from not being as grippy as Id like at high pressures, so far they have been perfect. Ive been running them at 50psi. these past weeks, and actually they feel pretty good.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on December 10, 2016, 11:14:09 pm
I'm still faithfully using sector 32..

I buy a load at a time from A-tyres, and even though they are in France, they arrive within days, and so far have been the cheapest...

Sector 32 don't have the out and out grip you might get with such as Conti GP 4000 S with black chili etc, but I know they don't, so ride sensibly.... (and I've become a wuss downhill in the wet, anyway...)

They tend to do between 5,000 & 10,000 kms but occasionally they can suffer severe cuts, which have never actually ended a ride, but once the sealing becomes a bit pump, ride, occasional plug pop out, successful reseal, ride, pop out, sequence repeat, I take the hint and fit a new one...

I've not really tried patches or plugs, but then again, I'm generally too busy riding....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: maxap on December 11, 2016, 08:28:53 am
Bikey-mikey
I've been searching for A-tyres where you buy your sector 32s. Can't find them. Could you give me the address please.
Thanks
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on December 11, 2016, 10:13:02 am
He may mean acycles.fr (http://www.acycles.fr) or the .co.uk equivalent.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 11, 2016, 01:39:48 pm
Wiggle are cheaper....but no stock for a few weeks
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 11, 2016, 04:09:26 pm
unfortunately the bike in question hasn't got the tyre clearance for sector 32

I have to use 23mm tyres on the wide archetype rims which comes out at 25mm which *just* fits

The other bike has Schwalbe S-One which are 30mm.  The problem with riding that bike in the winter is that it's disk brake pads last about 10 minutes.  But let's not get into this now
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on December 11, 2016, 07:39:08 pm
<...>  The problem with riding that bike in the winter is that it's disk brake pads last about 10 minutes.  But let's not get into this now

wet and skoggy conditions is the only reason i choose to ride disc braked bike, otherwise there's not much point in having disc brakes.. in my opinion.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on December 11, 2016, 08:43:39 pm
He may mean acycles.fr (http://www.acycles.fr) or the .co.uk equivalent.

Whoops yes, acycles in France..

Sorry for inadvertent brain fade...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on December 11, 2016, 08:47:52 pm
<...>  The problem with riding that bike in the winter is that it's disk brake pads last about 10 minutes.  But let's not get into this now

wet and skoggy conditions is the only reason i choose to ride disc braked bike, otherwise there's not much point in having disc brakes.. in my opinion.

but it's nearly always wet and skoggy in autumn and winter, and often warmer, but still wet and skoggy in spring and even summer... I suppose there are a few days when I'd ride with old fashioned rubber block brakes, but precious few... and I'd still have to get used to the variation in moderation.....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on December 12, 2016, 08:40:38 am
Whoops yes, acycles in France..

Easy to mix up with www.cycletyres.fr (http://www.cycletyres.fr), another Aladdin's cave of tyres. I’ve used both shops with success in the past.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: aeolus on December 13, 2016, 07:47:56 pm
Has anybody tried Bontrager AW2 Hard case Lite TLR as a winter tyre ? - they do them up to 32's

My Domane came with their R3's in 32mm (not tubeless) and I've been impressed for summer use, so thought I may try them when I go tubeless.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 15, 2016, 12:04:50 pm
I have been impressed with the Bontrager tyres on my domane as well although I do not think present weather gives any indication of true winter experience.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: recumbentim on December 18, 2016, 03:15:28 pm
What is the best way to patch a 2-3mm hole that the sealant won't seal at higher pressure? I have tried the MTB Anchovies that you push in but it just came out after a few hundred miles . Sorry if this has been covered I did read it all a while back.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on December 18, 2016, 08:31:32 pm
Take it off and patch it from the inside
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 24, 2016, 04:11:55 pm
Latest one year of tubeless blog update post here https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/whats-so-great-about-tubeless-tyres/
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Basil on December 24, 2016, 05:46:59 pm
Every time this pops up in my Since You Were Away I read it as " Tubless for brummies".
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 24, 2016, 06:16:03 pm
Latest one year of tubeless blog update post here https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/whats-so-great-about-tubeless-tyres/

This doesn't reflect my experience at all. In fact beyond what you need to be tubeless (tubeless tape, tubeless valve, sealant, tubeless tyre) you don't need any specialist equipment at all.  Just tyre levers and a track pump.  I think possible ways for you to improve your technique are to dispense with the syringe at the time of mounting and just pour the sealant into the well of the tyre at the bottom that you leave open having mounted most of the tyre,  then roll the tyre round so that the open part is at the top and finish mounting the tyre.  Pre-wiping the outside walls with a strong washing-up liquid solution really helps the mounting. Then inflate like fuck with a track pump.  No need at all for an airshot.

The syringe is for topping up the sealant after a few months. Tubeless valves can be found pretty cheaply, and you can use gorilla tape instead of tubeless tape.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on December 24, 2016, 09:58:10 pm
Latest one year of tubeless blog update post here https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/whats-so-great-about-tubeless-tyres/
I'm going to contradict your rather non-positive experience described in that blog post too. At least, since I clearly can't deny that that's your experience, I'll contrast it with mine which is reasonably summed up as 'hassle free and reliable'. I'm sure this comes down to all the variable factors, such as what sort of tyres and rims you have and their interaction, the type of puncture inducing hazards you encounter and possibly how you ride in some manner.

In 16,000 or so kilometres, I've had no issues resulting in a problem. The tyres can be fitted (but not removed, at least not by me) without tools and they inflate perfectly easily, after fitting from new, with a track pump. During those kilometres, I've only been with other cyclists for about 2,000km and have seen three, maybe four punctures, so it's not likely to be that the roads I'm on are puncture hazard free.

This is just in the interest of balance as my experience is a complete contrast to your comments in your blog.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on December 24, 2016, 10:16:00 pm
My experience is also positive. One amusement was removing a tyres and finding a thron through it. No evidence of air loss at all. I pulled the thorn out, remounted and inflated with sealant and it just didn't leak.

The only areas that I think are difficult are making sure tape is properly applied to avoid sealant and air getting underneath and, sometimes, if you move tyres between rims the residual Kate's on the bead can impact sealing.

I'm currently experimenting with a pair of Vitoria Voyager Hypers tubeless and the front has been losing pressure slowly, but flu has stopped me riding for three weeks, I expect it will be fine after one ride.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 25, 2016, 02:29:51 pm
Latest one year of tubeless blog update post here https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/whats-so-great-about-tubeless-tyres/

This doesn't reflect my experience at all. In fact beyond what you need to be tubeless (tubeless tape, tubeless valve, sealant, tubeless tyre) you don't need any specialist equipment at all.  Just tyre levers and a track pump.  I think possible ways for you to improve your technique are to dispense with the syringe at the time of mounting and just pour the sealant into the well of the tyre at the bottom that you leave open having mounted most of the tyre,  then roll the tyre round so that the open part is at the top and finish mounting the tyre.  Pre-wiping the outside walls with a strong washing-up liquid solution really helps the mounting. Then inflate like fuck with a track pump.  No need at all for an airshot.

The syringe is for topping up the sealant after a few months. Tubeless valves can be found pretty cheaply, and you can use gorilla tape instead of tubeless tape.

I think I had one rim/tyre combination that worked with a track pump.  And that was a tubeless specific rim.  With the other 5 tyres I put on I tried the track pump but it simply didn't work. 
Definitely will try a "wipe" of washingup liquid solution before starting mounting the tyre instead of the "Stan's" method of spraying
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: stevie63 on December 27, 2016, 07:29:39 pm
Latest one year of tubeless blog update post here https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/whats-so-great-about-tubeless-tyres/

Can I check what tyres everyone is using as my experience so far hasn't been all that great. First of all I was using a IRC RBCC that suffered a catastrophic sidewall failure after 950 miles. My next tyre was a Fusion 5 All Weather that after 200 miles suffered a hole that wouldn't seal and then when I took it off and re-mounted will no longer inflate as the bead is now too loose. This means I'm now having to use it with a tube which seems to defeat the point.

The other thing to mention is that there are more options in the 23-28mm category than you have listed:

Fusion 5 in 3 types
IRC Roadlite
IRC RBCC
IRC X-Guard
Maxxis Padrone
Panaracer Type A Evo3

They are no doubt others that I have missed.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on December 27, 2016, 07:43:39 pm
I'm running Hutchinson Sector 28mm. Closing in on 40,000 miles of tubeless and no punctures so far. I too inflate with track pump and use an old sponge and wipe soapy Waterhouse rim  to form initial seal for inflation.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on December 27, 2016, 07:46:20 pm
The IRC tyres seem pretty difficult to get hold of in the UK - in fact all the ones you list do, but the Panaracer looks interesting.  I wonder if there is a Panaracer Type D tubeless?  that would be ideal
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on January 13, 2017, 09:45:55 pm
Currently 3 different tyre types:

Schwalbe One Pro - fast and have been excellent tubeless. Set up easily. Mine are the first version. 28s come up around 31mm wide on 19mm internal rims.

Compass Bon Jon Pass - 35mm come up wider on 19mm internal rims. Fast and squishy. Been fine, but sidewalls might be fragile. Harder to set up.

Vittoria Voyager Hyper - not tubeless ready, so an experiment. However working fine at below 60psi (wouldn't go higher - they popped off at 80 with fairy liquid). 32s come up at 35 on 19internal rims. Also set up well, but obviously usual caveats apply about useage.


Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on January 14, 2017, 04:35:19 pm
Latest tubeless news from me

I've fitted non tubeless clinchers on the 3rd best bike instead of Schwalbe One.  I will go back to tubeless with Schwalbe One in the summer.   For winter use they aren't strong enough and as previously discussed the combination of high pressure and larger holes just doesn't work.  I didn't like to take a chance with the unknown pleasures of the various medium weight 23mm tubeless tyres listed above as it's an expensive experiment to try.

In other news I got some "Doc Blue" sealant from Ribble the other day.  For 500ml size it was competitively priced with Stan's Sealant.  As I understand it, Doc Blue is Stan's sealant rebadged for Schwalbe.  The pack I got came with a small bottle for injecting the stuff and a small but perfectly formed valve core extractor. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 14, 2017, 05:20:09 pm
Orangeseal is being punted as very good.

I'm going to try it out in some tubulars.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on January 14, 2017, 06:53:40 pm
Orangeseal is being punted as very good.

I'm going to try it out in some tubulars.

Yes I saw that too
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on February 02, 2017, 02:18:00 pm
tubeless latest

I tried fitting some quite old 2" (50mm) Marathon Supremes on Velocity Blunt rims.  When I bought the 2" Supremes I thought they were supposed to be "tubeless ready"
Maybe they weren't.  Anyway I couldn't get them to reliably work.

So I got some 35mm Marathon Supremes new.  These went on the Blunts just fine and they ride nice.  Quite fast.  Nothing is going to make my Surly with hub gears, a rack and mudguards into a good climber but at least it zips along on the flat now
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on February 03, 2017, 09:25:29 am
Well......
Last week I had a tubeless related accident with my "trusty" ghetto pop bottle inflator.   Yep,  it went pop at about 80psi while trying to seat a stubborn tyre.   Result was tyre still un seated and a broken little finger and part severed tendons in my middle and index fingers on my left hand - I was holding the exit tube of the bottle closed at the time .   The title of this thread has become very appropriate for me! 
It was a bottle I've been using for a year or so , whenever a track pump alone wouldn't work, and I wonder if that contributed - old bottle, plastic degraded, possibly scratched, weakened from many pressurisation cycles, etc, etc hindsight is a wonderful thing etc, etc lesson learnt the hard way .   
Just posting this as a warning just in case anyone else is using this method .   I've now taken delivery of an Airshot , which originally seemed expensive,  now seems cheap.   

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 03, 2017, 09:55:17 am
a broken little finger and part severed tendons in my middle and index fingers on my left hand -
Ouch!

Only 80psi did all that. We treat the energy stored in our tyres so casually.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 03, 2017, 10:17:20 am
Well......
Last week I had a tubeless related accident with my "trusty" ghetto pop bottle inflator.   Yep,  it went pop at about 80psi while trying to seat a stubborn tyre.   Result was tyre still un seated and a broken little finger and part severed tendons in my middle and index fingers on my left hand - I was holding the exit tube of the bottle closed at the time .   The title of this thread has become very appropriate for me! 
It was a bottle I've been using for a year or so , whenever a track pump alone wouldn't work, and I wonder if that contributed - old bottle, plastic degraded, possibly scratched, weakened from many pressurisation cycles, etc, etc hindsight is a wonderful thing etc, etc lesson learnt the hard way .   
Just posting this as a warning just in case anyone else is using this method .   I've now taken delivery of an Airshot , which originally seemed expensive,  now seems cheap.   

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

Photos or it didnt happen
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on February 03, 2017, 10:26:54 am
Here you go...

contains blood  ;)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 03, 2017, 10:37:31 am
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on February 03, 2017, 10:40:46 am
Here you go...

contains blood  ;)
(click to show/hide)
Excellent bloodage  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 03, 2017, 11:18:27 am
Bad luck.  I have had one tyre that would not seat at home so I took it to the local bike mechanic and left it with him.  Less than the cost af an airshot and he gets income.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on February 03, 2017, 12:42:27 pm
Ouch. Track pump only for me. Then off to local friendly shop to borrow their compressor the very few times I've needed to - always with mtb and not road tyres



Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on February 03, 2017, 01:56:25 pm
*wince*

Having done the put-some-dry-ice-pellets-in-a-coke-bottle-and-run-away thing in my yoof, I've never really trusted PET bottles for anything more strenuous than containing their factory load of fizzy drink.  When they go, they really go.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on February 03, 2017, 02:05:48 pm
Hmmm. I've made damn sure I'm not right next to my pop bottle inflator when I've used it, and the first couple of times I put it under a towel or a fleece to damp any excitement, but I've been more blasé recently. I think I'll be digging out an old towel again for next time.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on February 03, 2017, 04:28:43 pm
Ouch - I guess that's the price of "ghetto"?   :-\

I understand the point of tubeless on MTB - low pressures with no pinch flats. On road, where you want a reasonable pressure, that doesn't seem like enough of a USP. If simply avoiding punctures is the name of the game, is there any reason why you can't just put that sealant stuff inside an inner tube? I guess it might stick the inner tube to the tyre as it sealed the holes, but I'm sure with enough persuasion you could part them when the time came.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on February 03, 2017, 05:12:07 pm
Not having a tube reduces the rolling resistance.

Slime in tubes is the worst of both worlds, really.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 03, 2017, 06:51:43 pm
Ouch - I guess that's the price of "ghetto"?   :-\

I understand the point of tubeless on MTB - low pressures with no pinch flats. On road, where you want a reasonable pressure, that doesn't seem like enough of a USP. If simply avoiding punctures is the name of the game, is there any reason why you can't just put that sealant stuff inside an inner tube? I guess it might stick the inner tube to the tyre as it sealed the holes, but I'm sure with enough persuasion you could part them when the time came.

What if a reasonable pressure is low enough to make pinch flats likely? What if you want a higher pressure and don't want any risk of pinch flats?  what if you just don't want any flats?

There is only one answer to this.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on February 03, 2017, 06:59:41 pm
Yeah,  for me it's having fast tyres that are also reliable.   - the Audax holly grail.   
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on February 03, 2017, 07:24:39 pm
Yeah,  for me it's having fast tyres that are also reliable.   - the Audax holly grail.

There's your problem! ;)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on February 03, 2017, 10:29:09 pm
What if a reasonable pressure is low enough to make pinch flats likely? What if you want a higher pressure and don't want any risk of pinch flats?  what if you just don't want any flats?

There is only one answer to this.
Solid tyres?  :P
I've read this whole thread, and there seem to be a few people reporting significant downsides, so I was looking for the compelling reason to go road tubeless. :) Low rolling resistance, better comfort, and reduced chance of "small" p*ctures seem like pretty good reasons, if your wheels are suitable and you don't ride over big bits of glass too often!
Cheers
Duncan
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on February 05, 2017, 12:42:48 am
Well I've ridden close to 150,000 kms and only had one cut too big to seal.

People are reporting problems, but it's usually because they have either used a wheel badged as tubeless compatible (rather than a Stans built specifically for purpose), or are using new makes rather than tried and tested Hutchinsons, or are using too high a pressure, or try to fit them at home, rather than getting the bike shop AND THEIR COMPRESSOR to do it...

Or maybe because they don't like the idea, and tell tall stories (nobody on here, of course!)

Frankly how can they not work if you buy the right rims and the right tyres?

I have utterly proven that....
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 05, 2017, 07:21:48 am
Well, Ive had no problems and Ive not used Stans rims, not used a compressor, not used a bike shop, not used tried and tested tyres  ;D

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on February 05, 2017, 11:16:21 am
Well, Ive had no problems and Ive not used Stans rims, not used a compressor, not used a bike shop, not used tried and tested tyres  ;D

Indeed I'm not saying my way or the highway, just that I've not tried others because "if it ain't broke..."
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 05, 2017, 12:09:39 pm
l'm sticking with your recommendation of Hutchinson Sectors (although Ive got 32s) for the winter/spring. :thumbsup:
They've been great. Well over 1000 miles winter use on some really crap roads and they are in fine condition. In fact, they look new.  Deflated them yesterday in order to refresh the sealant. Pumped back up to a solid seal with no problems (although there was a brief bit of fizzing out of the spoke holes.

For late spring and autumn it'll be Schwalbe One Pro. Bit too fragile for winter, but a nice fast tyre.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on February 05, 2017, 09:09:34 pm
I wasn't trying to be rude, and I'm glad that there are some significant success stories here. It's often the case that threads are full of people with issues, because they keep coming back, while those for whom it works are too busy having fun!  ;)
I'm just looking for a new bike and wondering whether tubeless is something that I should consider when replacing the standard tyres (and they are only 25s, so I'll probably go 28 or 30 fairly quickly).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 05, 2017, 09:32:43 pm
For spring and winter its a no brainer
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on February 05, 2017, 10:14:44 pm
I wasn't trying to be rude, and I'm glad that there are some significant success stories here. It's often the case that threads are full of people with issues, because they keep coming back, while those for whom it works are too busy having fun!  ;)
I'm just looking for a new bike and wondering whether tubeless is something that I should consider when replacing the standard tyres (and they are only 25s, so I'll probably go 28 or 30 fairly quickly).


Yes, you should go tubeless. Even if you want a new bike that comes with the usual quality of OEM wheels, you should buy some tubeless rims or wheels and transition straight away.

Dare I say it - Flatus is correct. And it's good sense in summer too I reckon given that you can buy Vittoria Corsa Speeds in tubeless ready. There are increasing numbers of nice tyres from 23 upwards.

Mike

 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on February 06, 2017, 10:31:32 am
Cycling weekly rolling resistance test - tubulars vs clinchers vs tubeless.

https://youtu.be/5NGnKMvZ5Ig

No prizes for guessing which is the fastest.   

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on February 06, 2017, 11:27:46 am
Vittoria’s tyre range is as impenetrable as ever, but that Cycling Weekly test seems to compare the Corsa Speed tubeless tyre with the regular (non-Speed) Corsa tubular and tube-type clincher.

Since the Speed is significantly faster than the non-Speed Corsa among tubular and clincher models tested by Bicycle Rolling Resistance, the comparison doesn’t seem fair.

Additionally, the test used a 23 mm tubeless tyre while the others were 25 mm. With that power-monster riding in his aerodynamic position (both the opposite of what you’d want when testing rolling resistance, by the way, since those factors exaggerate aerodynamic noise), on a smooth surface, and using tyres of generally very low rolling resistance, a 23 mm tyre almost certainly gains more aerodynamically than it loses in rolling resistance compared to a 25 mm tyre. So using a 23 mm tyre gives tubeless a second unfair advantage here.

From what I’ve read and understood on this topic, tube-type tyres with a latex tube are still the fastest among similar tyres. The tubeless Corsa Speed is the only faster option than the fastest tube-type clinchers, but its problems of poor wet grip, short lifespan, and extreme fragility are now well documented. There is no similarly race-orientated tube-type clincher to compare to it, although the Continental Grand Prix Supersonic with latex tube is probably very nearly as fast.

The mass appeal of road tubeless remains surprising to me. There is a long list of disadvantages – many documented at length in this thread – and only one non-trivial advantage: greater resistance to small punctures. Since punctures are not a significant problem for me, even with lightweight tyres in glass-strewn Paris, this trade-off doesn’t work for me. The gouging price of everything tubeless-related is off-putting anyway.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Brucey on February 06, 2017, 12:31:23 pm
Here you go...

contains blood  ;)
(click to show/hide)

yuck. 
 
FWIW most PET bottles will start to split longitudinally when they fail, but then shatter into many smaller pieces in all directions. A new bottle usually won't burst until it gets to about 175psi. However if a bottle has been flexed repeatedly, it will be a lot easier to burst it; PET cannot be creased without weakening it.

  For the sake of safety, it is an excellent idea to bind a load of tape (almost any tape is better than nothing) around the bottle. This won't stop it from splitting, but it will mitigate the damage when if it does burst.  Also, it isn't a bad idea to have the bottle inside an old trouser leg or something.

As for going tubeless, I'm not tempted.  Too much faff.

cheers
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on February 06, 2017, 02:09:09 pm
For the sake of safety, it is an excellent idea to bind a load of tape (almost any tape is better than nothing) around the bottle. This won't stop it from splitting, but it will mitigate the damage when if it does burst.  Also, it isn't a bad idea to have the bottle inside an old trouser leg or something.

Top tip:  Remove trousers first.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on February 06, 2017, 07:13:00 pm

Yes, you should go tubeless. Even if you want a new bike that comes with the usual quality of OEM wheels, you should buy some tubeless rims or wheels and transition straight away.

Dare I say it - Flatus is correct. And it's good sense in summer too I reckon given that you can buy Vittoria Corsa Speeds in tubeless ready. There are increasing numbers of nice tyres from 23 upwards.
It will have to wait - budget gone on bike plus bottle cages etc. It will have to wait until next year for the grand tubeless setup (unless I can make these Fulcrum 77s work properly as tubeless rims and not have a significant faff doing so - maybe my birthday might be a good time for new tyres). I shall keep an eye on this thread...
Cheers
Duncan
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fd3 on February 07, 2017, 10:06:30 pm
Am I correct in summarising that:
Optimal is tubeless tyres and rim, best/essential for higher pressures
Rims can be adapted to tubeless with stans tape, depending on the rim you will hold higher pressures
Tyres can be adapted to tubeless with stans sealant, but you need to run low pressures
You can adapt both rims and tyres

The further you go down the list the lower your psi and the greater the risk.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on February 08, 2017, 12:50:04 pm
Am I correct in summarising that:
Optimal is tubeless tyres and rim, best/essential for higher pressures
Rims can be adapted to tubeless with stans tape, depending on the rim you will hold higher pressures
Tyres can be adapted to tubeless with stans sealant, but you need to run low pressures
You can adapt both rims and tyres

The further you go down the list the lower your psi and the greater the risk.
I think that's somewhat inaccurate. You need sealant for all types of tyre. Running non-tubeless tyres tubeless is probably a bad idea - the beads are not as strong as tubeless beads... But I'm only a reader - I have no actual experience of tubeless...
Cheers
Duncan
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Morat on February 08, 2017, 04:39:00 pm
I'm still not sure of the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. Is it possible to run Tubeless Ready rims without lashings of rim tape? Do none/some/all have spokes exposed on the tyre side of the rim?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on February 08, 2017, 05:23:32 pm
I'm still not sure of the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. Is it possible to run Tubeless Ready rims without lashings of rim tape? Do none/some/all have spokes exposed on the tyre side of the rim?

UST (Universal Standard Tubeless) is a well defined industry standard. UST rims have no spoke holes on the tyre side. 'Tubeless ready' is a marketing term that can mean pretty much whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean. Tubeless ready rims generally require tape.

This is something I've been wondering about myself since I'm looking to buy a tubeless rim for a wheel build I'm contemplating.

One corollary question I have is: how the feck do you get the nipples into UST rims? Are these the ones that require you to fit the nipple in an insert that you screw into the rim? If so, how do you calculate spoke length for a UST wheel?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Brucey on February 08, 2017, 05:36:55 pm
you fit some test spokes of known length (opposite one another), measure the gap and then calculate the ERD from that.

The inserts (which are sometimes nipples rather than nipple carriers, or can be spoke carriers if the nipples are at the hub end) are all highly susceptible to seizure in our lovely climate.

cheers
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on February 08, 2017, 06:05:52 pm
you fit some test spokes of known length (opposite one another), measure the gap and then calculate the ERD from that.

Seems pretty obvious now you mention it.

Quote
The inserts (which are sometimes nipples rather than nipple carriers, or can be spoke carriers if the nipples are at the hub end) are all highly susceptible to seizure in our lovely climate.

Hmmm. Might just stick to a 'tubeless ready' rim then.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on February 08, 2017, 08:59:16 pm
you fit some test spokes of known length (opposite one another), measure the gap and then calculate the ERD from that.

Seems pretty obvious now you mention it.

Quote
The inserts (which are sometimes nipples rather than nipple carriers, or can be spoke carriers if the nipples are at the hub end) are all highly susceptible to seizure in our lovely climate.

Hmmm. Might just stick to a 'tubeless ready' rim then.


They work.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on February 08, 2017, 09:21:59 pm
Am I correct in summarising that:
Optimal is tubeless tyres and rim, best/essential for higher pressures Yes
Rims can be adapted to tubeless with stans tape, depending on the rim you will hold higher pressuresNo, whether a rim works for tubeless depends on the shape of the channel and the height of the sides. You need a channel with shelves for the bead to sit on, rather than one that slopes gently up to the rim wall - compare profiles of Kinlin 22T and H Plus Son Archetype (below). All these rims need tape. I don't really like Stans and have started using a polyester tape that is similar to the caffelatex tape, but cheaper. The tape seals the holes, but can be used with tubes as well of course. Some rims have a suitable shape, but don't claim to be tubeless ready - you may find bead channel dimensions are not optimal for example. Others don't claim to be tubeless, look the wrong shape but people still do it (archetype is the classic), which I wouldn't.
Tyres can be adapted to tubeless with stans sealant, but you need to run low pressures Sometimes, at your own risk. There is widespread variation in experience. I've done Vittoria Voyager Hypers, based on this link https://whosatthewheel.com/2015/08/10/ghetto-tubeless-conversions/, but one blew off at 80psi when wet with detergent. I run them at 50 to 60 on the road, but it's all a bit of a careful experiment. The issue for road tubeless is that the bead isn't as strong and is stretchier, hence the risk of the tyre dismounting itself.
You can adapt both rims and tyres Never tried, but I presume you could

The further you go down the list the lower your psi and the greater the risk. Yes and, definitely, yes!

Note, you will always need sealant. This is a topic for discussion in an of itself...

Some rim profiles - archetype is not tubeless compatible

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-JTfM32P/0/L/i-JTfM32P-L.jpg)


Some more - you can work it out

(http://fcdn.roadbikereview.com/attachments/wheels-tires/294173d1396963829-velocity-a23-vs-pacenti-sl23-rim-profiles.jpg)

finally, DT  Swiss rr511 has a lovely profile

(https://www.dtswiss.com/CmsPages/GetFile.aspx?guid=a5c3c6ec-ae80-46d8-a2da-fe3fa80b993b)

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on February 08, 2017, 09:35:21 pm
Can anyone comment from experience on whether or not rim tape (Stan's in my case) should be replaced when replacing a tyre? I'm finding my tyres are lasting for about 10,000km or so and have only replaced front and rear once each and I've simply left the tape I'd originally fitted in place. Is this normal practise, or should it be renewed with a new tyre? Certainly, I've had no issues so far but perhaps I've just been lucky?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on February 08, 2017, 10:31:47 pm
Can anyone comment from experience on whether or not rim tape (Stan's in my case) should be replaced when replacing a tyre? I'm finding my tyres are lasting for about 10,000km or so and have only replaced front and rear once each and I've simply left the tape I'd originally fitted in place. Is this normal practise, or should it be renewed with a new tyre? Certainly, I've had no issues so far but perhaps I've just been lucky?

I would only replace if it got dislodged or otherwise leaked
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on February 08, 2017, 10:43:06 pm
I would only replace if it got dislodged or otherwise leaked

Good, that was my thinking, and I'm taking the same approach with the valves. Thanks.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 08, 2017, 10:48:15 pm
Tubeless tape is ridiculously expensive. Anybody know of a decent alternative?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on February 08, 2017, 10:57:15 pm
Gorilla tape.

Big roll was six quid I think - cut to width on the roll.

(I picked it up because I happened to spot it on the shelf in a builder's merchant, about three days after I'd read that the rim tape supplied by one of the tubeless rim manufacturers was custom-cut Gorilla tape. A couple of layers seem to work just fine.)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on February 08, 2017, 11:06:26 pm
I'm about to try 3M 8992 - I've got 3 rolls 25mm wide, but will cut one down to 20mm. It's like the caffelatex tape. Turns out I can get cut to size when I order, so I may do that next time. I'll report back next week.

If you like Stans, then Tesa 4289 is widely available on the evil auction site for a tenner for 66m.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 09, 2017, 07:09:36 am
Thanks everyone
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 13, 2017, 01:42:31 pm
This might be of interest to some

https://whosatthewheel.com/2015/08/10/ghetto-tubeless-conversions/
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on February 17, 2017, 10:55:38 am
Some rim profiles...

If anyone's interested, here's another - Stan's Grail, which I have just bought for the disc brake/dynamo wheel I'm about to build:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/473/32106085874_a1af44aaf5_z.jpg)


A propos of which, I'm not planning to use it tubeless initially, but bearing in mind that I will probably switch to tubeless sooner or later, would it be worth using tubeless tape rather than conventional rim tape? Or will that cause problems in use with tubes?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Karla on February 17, 2017, 11:00:28 am
This might be of interest to some

https://whosatthewheel.com/2015/08/10/ghetto-tubeless-conversions/

Last year I gave emergency couch space to a rather bloodied friend who had tried that for crit racing.  The only thing that surprised me when his tyre rolled off on the last hairpin, was that it had stayed on for all the previous laps.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chris n on February 17, 2017, 11:07:35 am
A propos of which, I'm not planning to use it tubeless initially, but bearing in mind that I will probably switch to tubeless sooner or later, would it be worth using tubeless tape rather than conventional rim tape? Or will that cause problems in use with tubes?

Doesn't cause problems with tubes - but I've found it's easy to damage the tape with tyre levers when fitting particularly tight (non-tubeless) tyres.  Thick conventional rim tapes like Velox can make it difficult to fit tyres to tubeless-ready rims as it fills the well in the centre.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on February 17, 2017, 11:33:44 am
Doesn't cause problems with tubes - but I've found it's easy to damage the tape with tyre levers when fitting particularly tight (non-tubeless) tyres.  Thick conventional rim tapes like Velox can make it difficult to fit tyres to tubeless-ready rims as it fills the well in the centre.

Hmmm. Thanks for the info. So, potential problems either way... Maybe it will be best to just bite the bullet and go tubeless.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 17, 2017, 12:51:57 pm
This might be of interest to some

https://whosatthewheel.com/2015/08/10/ghetto-tubeless-conversions/

Last year I gave emergency couch space to a rather bloodied friend who had tried that for crit racing.  The only thing that surprised me when his tyre rolled off on the last hairpin, was that it had stayed on for all the previous laps.

I wouldn't attempt it either, personally, but then I'm not as penny-pinching as some  ;)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on February 17, 2017, 12:58:37 pm
Hmmm. Thanks for the info. So, potential problems either way... Maybe it will be best to just bite the bullet and go tubeless.

Why the implied reticence?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on February 17, 2017, 04:04:56 pm
Why the implied reticence?

Purely the cost of tubeless tyres. Don't really fancy the ghetto conversion of the current tyres (Marathon Supremes). Will probably make the switch next time the tyres need replacing.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on February 17, 2017, 04:13:25 pm
This might be of interest to some

https://whosatthewheel.com/2015/08/10/ghetto-tubeless-conversions/

Last year I gave emergency couch space to a rather bloodied friend who had tried that for crit racing.  The only thing that surprised me when his tyre rolled off on the last hairpin, was that it had stayed on for all the previous laps.

I wouldn't attempt it either, personally, but then I'm not as penny-pinching as some  ;)


Agree with Flatus on that. I wouldn't consider a ghetto conversion for racing, hard cornering or narrow tyres that will get used at high pressure. I am very cautious even with wide low pressure tyres, and they'll get swapped out in due course.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 17, 2017, 04:33:06 pm
Why the implied reticence?

Purely the cost of tubeless tyres. Don't really fancy the ghetto conversion of the current tyres (Marathon Supremes). Will probably make the switch next time the tyres need replacing.

If you shop around...

Wiggle did Hutchinson Sector 32 for £28. (Ideal winter tyre)

I got some Schwalbe Pro Ones from France for not much a while back.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on February 17, 2017, 06:24:30 pm
Doesn't cause problems with tubes - but I've found it's easy to damage the tape with tyre levers when fitting particularly tight (non-tubeless) tyres.  Thick conventional rim tapes like Velox can make it difficult to fit tyres to tubeless-ready rims as it fills the well in the centre.

Hmmm. Thanks for the info. So, potential problems either way... Maybe it will be best to just bite the bullet and go tubeless.

it takes about double the time to mount non-tubeless tyres on tubeless rims; ok ir you are at home, but if you have a puncture while your club mates are waiting in the cold while you faff..
plus you really need a very good full size pump or co2 cartridge for the tyre bead to pop onto the rim "shelf", so be prepared.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on February 20, 2017, 05:00:03 pm
Wiggle did Hutchinson Sector 32 for £28. (Ideal winter tyre)

When you put it like that...

Ah, what the heck, it's only money!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 20, 2017, 05:47:59 pm
I wish my fastest wheels were tubeless.  I have a pair of Fulcrum Quattro carbon disc wheels that are lovely, but Campag insist they are not tubeless ready....not sure if that precludes being tubeless compatible but Im not going to be taking risks with them.

(Well, one set are tubular  ;D )
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mzjo on February 20, 2017, 10:10:04 pm
Why the implied reticence?

Purely the cost of tubeless tyres. Don't really fancy the ghetto conversion of the current tyres (Marathon Supremes). Will probably make the switch next time the tyres need replacing.

If you shop around...

Wiggle did Hutchinson Sector 32 for £28. (Ideal winter tyre)

I got some Schwalbe Pro Ones from France for not much a while back.

My preferred discount supplier (here in France) has Schwalbe One at 39€ and Pro One at 45€ which is probably not enough discount to justify post to UK but might be interesting to those with postboxes in France. Cycletyres Direct don't have a tubeless filter which is a bit of a nuisance since it means scrolling through 16 pages of results. I am not keen enough on tubeless to know all the options so excuse me for not looking further.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Alex B on February 21, 2017, 07:06:21 am
I have just got some new wheels built using H Plus Son's new "Tubeless Compatible" rims, "The Hydra". The wheels have a double layer of tubeless rim rape.

Compared to my previous tubeless rims, Pacenti SLs, the experience is different.

- Schwalbe G One Speed tyres went on with thumbs alone, and inflated first go with a track pump with the bead popping into place at around 60 psi as usual.

- However, on deflation as the pressure neared zero the tyres popped again as the bead demounted.

- With sealant in, I could inflate the tyre and reseat the bead using just a roadside pump (Lezyne Micro Floor Drive)

Not sure what I think about this. While it's useful to be able to mount tyres without tools and reseat the bead on the road (I must practice this to make sure it wasn't a fluke) I think I prefer the Pacenti SL behaviour where the bead stays firmly in place even if the pressure drops to zero. In the event of a serious puncture this strikes me as probably being safer and easier to fix ...

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on February 21, 2017, 07:26:10 pm
my first experience of mounting and test riding tubeless was very positive. tubeless rims (pro-lite bortola), tubeless racing tyres (ultremo zx), tesa tape (two layers of, linked upthread) and conti revo sealant. the hardest part was to install the tape, as it requires a lot of force to stick without any wrinkles. cut the valve hole carefully so that it is a bit smaller than the valve. i then mounted normal clincher tyres with inner tubes and pumped them to the max so that they would press and bond the tape reliably.
took the tyres off, put the tubeless valves in (without cores), mounted tubeless tyres (no levers or soapy water needed), pumped vigorously with a track pump and the both tyres seated first time, inflated them to 120psi. front tyre was silent, rear was slightly hissing near the valve. poured the sealant in, screwed in the valves and inflated the tyres again to a 100psi. after shaking, flipping and spinning the wheels both tyres hold the pressure fine and ride very nice, as expected. i plan to ride them at 80-85psi(f) and 90-95psi(r).
now need to sort out the repair kit to carry on the bike - is sealant worth having?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on February 21, 2017, 09:02:36 pm
I dont carry sealant on the bike. I do have a tubeless repair kit but Ive never used it. I think when you start to get frequent (self-sealing) punctures then you have to start thinking about replacing the tyre.

Incidentally, i use a different mounting method. Mount tyre most of the way, soapy water wiped on bead. Leave a bit of tyre unmounted in which you pour in the sealant. Rotate wheel 90° so that sealant pools at bottom where tyre is seated. Mount remaining but then pump like fuck. Then do the old wobbling and rotating of the wheel to sluice the sealant around.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on February 22, 2017, 08:46:34 am
I dont carry sealant on the bike. I do have a tubeless repair kit but Ive never used it. I think when you start to get frequent (self-sealing) punctures then you have to start thinking about replacing the tyre.

Incidentally, i use a different mounting method. Mount tyre most of the way, soapy water wiped on bead. Leave a bit of tyre unmounted in which you pour in the sealant. Rotate wheel 90° so that sealant pools at bottom where tyre is seated. Mount remaining but then pump like fuck. Then do the old wobbling and rotating of the wheel to sluice the sealant around.

That's pretty much what I do regarding mounting. 
I don't carry sealant.  I normally carry a tube - but have only used it twice in three years (both of those could have been avoided - one was me not thinking and the other was a clubmate's pump unscrewing my valve core).  I also carry a tubeless repair kit on long rides.  I've used it once, but with only limited success (on last year's TCR).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on February 22, 2017, 10:58:05 am
<...>
Incidentally, i use a different mounting method. Mount tyre most of the way, soapy water wiped on bead. Leave a bit of tyre unmounted in which you pour in the sealant. Rotate wheel 90° so that sealant pools at bottom where tyre is seated. Mount remaining but then pump like fuck. Then do the old wobbling and rotating of the wheel to sluice the sealant around.

the logic behind pumping the tyres up without the valve cores is to get better airflow to get them seated. the nozzle of sealant bottle is made to work with valves, therefore a perfect fit (only i didn't check how fast the sealant flows and poured about 50ml into the front tyre, instead of 30).
your method is good too, as long as it gets the result.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on February 22, 2017, 11:49:03 am
My experience is that some tyres / rim combinations do stay locked onto the rim when you deflate and some don't.  As yours clearly do, I can see the logic to it but I like to keep my cores done up tight!

The two times I've had to use a tube were both when the tyre deflated and lost the seal with the rim, and, without track pump or CO2, I couldn't reinflate it fast enough to get it back on the rim (that was with Stan's Alpha 340 rims and Schwalbe Ones).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on February 22, 2017, 12:13:35 pm
imo, all tubeless rims should have a little ridge to keep the tyre bead seated, like in this image:

(https://amclassic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/550x550/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/h/u/hurricane_tubeless_rim_1.jpg)

some tubeless rims have flat shelves (which is not ideal) or worse - gently sloping shelves, in shape of a sine wave (like fulcrums, although they are marketed as tubeless compatible).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on February 22, 2017, 06:36:41 pm
imo, all tubeless rims should have a little ridge to keep the tyre bead seated, like in this image:

(https://amclassic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/550x550/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/h/u/hurricane_tubeless_rim_1.jpg)

some tubeless rims have flat shelves (which is not ideal) or worse - gently sloping shelves, in shape of a sine wave (like fulcrums, although they are marketed as tubeless compatible).

So the ridge that is referred to as missing in the Archetype is the bit on the bottom where the spokes go ?

In other questions, I had some Schwalbe S-One's arriving on a new purchase which I am advised that they've now replaced with the new 'G-One Speed', which is available in 30C.

https://www.schwalbe.com/gb/road-reader/schwalbe-g-one-speed.html

I was originally after 28C tyres so I am now being offered the option for these in the Pro-One. I am not sure I am to fussed on wether they are 28C or 30C - both will be comfy I expect....

Has anyone any experience or comments about the merits of either?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on February 22, 2017, 06:41:30 pm
The Archetypes don't even have a bead shelf, just a gentle u shaped rim bed. Not tubeless compatible.

I've got 28mm Ones on 19mm internal rims (Kinlin 31T) and they are 30mm wide. Comfy with the rear at 70 to 75psi. Getting a bit firmer at 80.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on February 22, 2017, 06:47:06 pm
The new tyres would be on Hunt rims initially (4 season Gravel) though I thought I had heard of others putting tubeless on the Archetypes?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on February 22, 2017, 07:03:05 pm
The new tyres would be on Hunt rims initially (4 season Gravel) though I thought I had heard of others putting tubeless on the Archetypes?

Don't know what rims the Hunt gravel have. I know 'everyone' says Archetypes are tubeless compatible, and they may go up and stay up, but I'd be careful (actually I wouldn't use them tubeless and haven't bought any for that reason) as there is no real bead support in the event of deflation or side load. YMMV of course.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Alex B on February 22, 2017, 07:14:24 pm
Has anyone any experience or comments about the merits of either?

The Schwalbe G One Speed (which so far as I can see is identical to the S One, except for the logo) comes up the same size as the "28mm" Pro Ones: at about 31mm wide on a 25mm rim.

The S One/G One Speed appears like it should be a tougher tyre than the Pro One with thicker rubber (it's quite a bit heavier) and stippled tread. I've had non-sealing punctures wth each, but my sample size is too small to mean anything. A Pro One suffered catastrophic failure on the Asparagus & Strawberries with a big bang - looked like glass had taken a chunk out of the tyre.

I think the Pro one wears quickly: 3,000 km for the rear maybe.

Personally, I'm thinking the G One Speed for October-March, and the Pro One for April-September rides, is about as good a choice of audax tubeless tyre as you can make.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on February 23, 2017, 01:55:51 am
The new tyres would be on Hunt rims initially (4 season Gravel) though I thought I had heard of others putting tubeless on the Archetypes?

Don't know what rims the Hunt gravel have. I know 'everyone' says Archetypes are tubeless compatible, and they may go up and stay up, but I'd be careful (actually I wouldn't use them tubeless and haven't bought any for that reason) as there is no real bead support in the event of deflation or side load. YMMV of course.

I'm inclined to think that a lack of bead support makes little odds, at least for road tubeless - I'm not sure I've heard of them burping, while if you get a deflation that means the bead unseats, you'll probably need to put a tube in. I'm not convinced that you're much worse off than when a clincher punctures: the sealant makes it messy, but beyond that ...

I've been running road tubeless tyres (Schwalbe Ones) on Open Pros quite happily for a little while: I'm about to replace the front with an A23 (because the braking surface is, um, a wee bit worn) and will see if it makes an appreciable difference, but after that wears out I'll probably use the Archetype I've also got in stock.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on February 23, 2017, 08:07:00 am
imo, all tubeless rims should have a little ridge to keep the tyre bead seated, like in this image:

(https://amclassic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/550x550/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/h/u/hurricane_tubeless_rim_1.jpg)

some tubeless rims have flat shelves (which is not ideal) or worse - gently sloping shelves, in shape of a sine wave (like fulcrums, although they are marketed as tubeless compatible).
I thought that ridge was just a feature of the mavic UST rims
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on February 23, 2017, 08:25:17 am
imo, all tubeless rims should have a little ridge to keep the tyre bead seated, like in this image:

Most do but that doesn't mean they will stay locked on when deflated.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on February 23, 2017, 08:27:10 am
The new tyres would be on Hunt rims initially (4 season Gravel) though I thought I had heard of others putting tubeless on the Archetypes?

Hunt rims are rebadged Kinlins, ie the same as Malcolm at the Cycle Clinic has.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on February 23, 2017, 08:32:11 am
I thought that ridge was just a feature of the mavic UST rims

My three sets of tubeless compatible rims all have it (Kinlin XR31, Stans Alpha 340 and Velocity A23)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on February 23, 2017, 09:05:39 am
I thought that ridge was just a feature of the mavic UST rims

My three sets of tubeless compatible rims all have it (Kinlin XR31, Stans Alpha 340 and Velocity A23)
Really?  I've got 4 velocity a23s and they have the shelf but no lip .  Ditto my old pair of stans 340s

(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g237/Pee_Jay_1/Mobile%20Uploads/A23-NEW-650-01_zpsgio5scan.jpg)

Great rims the a23, build well and have held up great so far
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on February 23, 2017, 09:52:48 am
Maybe we are meaning different things by 'lip'.  I was referring to the hook on the end!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on February 23, 2017, 11:13:59 am
it's this little raised edge that prevents the beads from sliding into the well:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170223/0d5a5fedbf8d36abc397590592fe371f.jpg)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on March 04, 2017, 06:22:37 pm
Has anyone used Maxxis Padrone tyres?

Chain Reaction has them in 28 at a reasonable price at the moment so I might take a punt.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on March 04, 2017, 06:33:07 pm
Need to plug a hole in an aging Schwalbe One. It ejaculated twice on me on today's audax.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on March 09, 2017, 08:00:01 am
How wide does the rim tape need to be?

With my Vernier caliper, the internal width of the Grail rim comes up as a smidge over 20mm. I've ordered some Effeto Caffelatex rim tape in the 20.5mm size but taking the dip of the rim channel into account, I'm concerned that might not be wide enough. Does it need to go right to the edges for a good seal?

The rear wheel rim is slightly narrower, so the tape should be fine for that one at least.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PaulF on March 09, 2017, 08:10:51 am
How wide does the rim tape need to be?

With my Vernier caliper, the internal width of the Grail rim comes up as a smidge over 20mm. I've ordered some Effeto Caffelatex rim tape in the 20.5mm size but taking the dip of the rim channel into account, I'm concerned that might not be wide enough. Does it need to go right to the edges for a good seal?

The rear wheel rim is slightly narrower, so the tape should be fine for that one at least.


Only gone tubeless on a mountain bike so may be different on a road bike, but my strip just sits in the "well" of the rim to seal the spoke holes
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on March 09, 2017, 09:01:22 am
What's the panels thoughts on recommended accessories for the tubeless generation, both on and off bike?

Repair kits ? I've seen some reference to anchovies, I'm not a lover of fish but suspect these might be something else....
reinflation ?  Mini-pump for on the road and spare tube (I sometimes wonder if tubeless is that good an idea!) or just a couple of CO2 canisters?
tyre levers?  I think I saw something about needing to have some special none sharp levers?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on March 09, 2017, 09:27:05 am
How wide does the rim tape need to be?

With my Vernier caliper, the internal width of the Grail rim comes up as a smidge over 20mm. I've ordered some Effeto Caffelatex rim tape in the 20.5mm size but taking the dip of the rim channel into account, I'm concerned that might not be wide enough. Does it need to go right to the edges for a good seal?

The rear wheel rim is slightly narrower, so the tape should be fine for that one at least.

i used 25mm tape on 19c rim, it worked fine. i didn't want to use narrower tape as i thought dismounting the tyre bead off the "shelf" may snag the edge of the tape.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on March 09, 2017, 09:47:40 am
What's the panels thoughts on recommended accessories for the tubeless generation, both on and off bike?

Repair kits ? I've seen some reference to anchovies, I'm not a lover of fish but suspect these might be something else....

I've had lots of joy with these: https://www.evanscycles.com/innovations-tubeless-tyre-repair-kit-EV150146 including repairing a fairly hefty split in my mates tractor MTB tyre, worth keeping in an airtight container to stop them drying out. I use an empty Nuun tube with my CO2 chuck and some other odds and sods in.

reinflation ?  Mini-pump for on the road and spare tube (I sometimes wonder if tubeless is that good an idea!) or just a couple of CO2 canisters?

I'm carrying a mountain morph, not exactly small but purchased in desparate need when the mini pump gave up, also one CO2 canister in case I need to reseat the bead, CO2 is no good for the sealant long term apparently.

tyre levers - Just standard
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on March 09, 2017, 10:06:51 am
I've got a couple of pumps I could use both Topeak Rocket mini's in HP and HV variants so will consider them...

In terms of sealant, is it all much of a muchness similar latex solution or is there some preference to which supplier?  I'm not sure my wheels will come with any spare other so will probably have to buy some of that too...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ivan on March 10, 2017, 11:14:06 am
I've had to re-tape both my SL23 rims after only 9 months or so - the 21mm Stans tape was rucking up along the edges and couldn't get the beads to seat with new tyres. My remaining half-roll had lost it stickiness, so had to get some more from Evans in an expensive last minute rush to get out last weekend.

What do people find the shelf life of this stuff is like? Before this happened I was thinking of getting 60m of generic tape off ebay, but don't want to if it isn't going to last. Though maybe I was unlucky with a dodgy batch that hadn't been stored correctly.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DrMekon on March 10, 2017, 04:03:02 pm
Jan Heine claims his tyres are designed for use with Orange Seal. I've had success with their tape and sealant (but can't speak to the shelf life). What I can say is that the Orange Seal valves are crap - the Stan's design is much better. The Orange seal uses o-rings that deform or leak, and finding the sweet spot between the two is an arse ache. They have finally settled down, but it's taken a lot of sealant and much cursing.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: JamieD on March 13, 2017, 05:19:55 pm
Tubeless on non-tubeless rims is going to drive me mad.

I've now got the front wheel working fine.

Gorilla tape combined with a Stans Rim strip and a load of sealant.

Rear wheel, the same but with less sealant because most of the bottle is on the floor after repeated attempts on the front wheel. Air pissing through the valve hole.

Specialized have a different definition of tricky to me

“The Cruzero wheels can be set up tubeless, but have been tricky for some people due to the pinned joint construction. Some suggestions that have proved helpful have been to use a good airtight tape with extra attention paid to the adhesion at the seam of the rim, use extra sealant than you normally would, use a compressor, inflate the rim holding the valve side up and the pinned joint down, and when inflating, shake the rim vigorously."
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on March 13, 2017, 06:05:53 pm
Tubeless on non-tubeless rims is going to drive me mad.

I've now got the front wheel working fine.

Gorilla tape combined with a Stans Rim strip and a load of sealant.

Rear wheel, the same but with less sealant because most of the bottle is on the floor after repeated attempts on the front wheel. Air pissing through the valve hole.

Specialized have a different definition of tricky to me

“The Cruzero wheels can be set up tubeless, but have been tricky for some people due to the pinned joint construction. Some suggestions that have proved helpful have been to use a good airtight tape with extra attention paid to the adhesion at the seam of the rim, use extra sealant than you normally would, use a compressor, inflate the rim holding the valve side up and the pinned joint down, and when inflating, shake the rim vigorously."

Optimism is good, 👍, but this is a bit like turning my bike into a jet ski..  ⚓️ ⚓️, ain't gonna happen.... 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Christophe on June 01, 2017, 09:28:15 pm
I've jumped on the tubeless bandwagon on my road bike after success on mtb and fat bike.
Just set up a set of Schwalbe Marathon Supreme tubeless Easy 700x35s on Archetypes with two wraps of gorilla tape. After faffing about with split tubes, soapy water, rapid track pump action and c02 canisters on the off road tyres, invested in an Airshot inflator which I would definitely recommend. Marathons popped up straight away no problem, quick squirt of stans, a quick shake and that was it. Did 50km commute today and have to say performance increase is noticeable compared to the Vittoria Voyager Hyper (and even they are a quick tyre). Apart from the lighter weight they appear to offer a much more cushioned and compliant ride. So far impressed.

Edit - reading up thread, one thing I will say is that the bead on road tyres is TIGHT. Broke two Park tyre levers which is a first for me.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Christophe on June 01, 2017, 09:37:58 pm
What's the panels thoughts on recommended accessories for the tubeless generation, both on and off bike?

Repair kits ? I've seen some reference to anchovies, I'm not a lover of fish but suspect these might be something else....
reinflation ?  Mini-pump for on the road and spare tube (I sometimes wonder if tubeless is that good an idea!) or just a couple of CO2 canisters?
tyre levers?  I think I saw something about needing to have some special none sharp levers?

On bike a couple of Co2 canisters, tubeless repair kit (anchovies - sticky rubber strips you poke through the hole if you get one too big for sealant) plus usual stuff you would carry including spare tubes (I've heard enough from Tippers to be slightly over cautious). Off bike - get an Airshot. Saves a lot of time and energy trying to mount and seal the tyres in the first place.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on June 01, 2017, 10:22:38 pm
I got one of the Schwalbe equivalents as it was cheap on the german store I got my tyres from.

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-tire-booster-577789?currency=3&delivery_country=190&gclid=Cj0KEQjw9r7JBRCj37PlltTskaMBEiQAKTzTfITjg0rR1H2NWnERbsspMC7XiWKOPVAw6Ge1kZUKdD0aAqkg8P8HAQ

I've been using the schwalbe tyre levers which came with their tubeless kit and so far they have been great.

I'm not carrying any other repair stuff other than a spare tube and a mini pump at the moment... I must make a note to take some patches with me this weekend.  I read somewhere that the anchovies make a mess of the (road) tyre more than they actually fix the problem?

743km so far on the One Pro Tubeless set up with H SON Plus Archetypes
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Christophe on June 02, 2017, 11:58:05 am
Good to know tubeless is working for you Jibber. Interesting about the anchovies. Used one on the fat bike and worked fine. Took it out once home and repaired properly with a tubeless patch on the inside. No problem since then about 400km ago.
Hopefully the marathon supremes will be a good choice. A bit heavier than the ones but possibly a bit more hard wearing. Had a regular set previously on the commuter and they were my all time favourites. Lasted ages.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on June 02, 2017, 05:10:35 pm
Good to know tubeless is working for you Jibber. Interesting about the anchovies. Used one on the fat bike and worked fine. Took it out once home and repaired properly with a tubeless patch on the inside. No problem since then about 400km ago.
Hopefully the marathon supremes will be a good choice. A bit heavier than the ones but possibly a bit more hard wearing. Had a regular set previously on the commuter and they were my all time favourites. Lasted ages.

I think the anchovy bit was in reference to tyres less than 30c but probably OK on MTB/FAT bike tyres I'd expect (lower pressures and all that)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on June 02, 2017, 06:34:40 pm
Interestingly the supremes use the same rubber as the ones. Will be interested to see how you get on.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Christophe on June 03, 2017, 09:02:57 am
Interestingly the supremes use the same rubber as the ones. Will be interested to see how you get on.

Never had chance to fondle a one so no idea how they compare with supremes in regards to thickness, flexibility etc. Off on a 200 tomorrow so will be putting them to the test. Will report back and let you know.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Christophe on June 05, 2017, 09:44:44 pm
Well 234km done yesterday on the Supremes with no mishaps.

I like them. A lot. Bike feels a bit more sprightly and they offer a really smooth ride. Seem to soak up more road buzz than previous tyres I've been riding. Recommended pressure on the side of the tyre is 60-80 psi so opted for 70 psi to start. Seems a pretty goof choice. May go a bit lower to see how that changes the ride. So far they are a really good choice. :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on June 05, 2017, 10:43:55 pm
Well 234km done yesterday on the Supremes with no mishaps.

I like them. A lot. Bike feels a bit more sprightly and they offer a really smooth ride. Seem to soak up more road buzz than previous tyres I've been riding. Recommended pressure on the side of the tyre is 60-80 psi so opted for 70 psi to start. Seems a pretty goof choice. May go a bit lower to see how that changes the ride. So far they are a really good choice. :thumbsup:

Good stuff. As a data point, at 80kg I'm currently running 75/80psi f/r in 25mm Ones, tubeless. Comfy and fast. Rims are 18 or 19 internal and the tyres come up at 26 or just over wide. 80psi is too hard in 28mm Ones, which measure 30+ on the same rims.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeeJay on June 06, 2017, 01:17:13 pm
I really like my Marathon Supreme Tubeless.  I've got the 35mm ones on my commuter, I'm 77kg and run then at 50psi. Feel nice and supple and fairly fast for a 'touring' tyre. I got them in Feb last year and (*checks strava*) I've put 8920km on them since then.  Mostly with trips to work and back which includes some cyclepaths which are occasionally glass strewn. No punctures at all so far, not even ones that the sealant has had to deal with as far as I know .  The back one is looking a bit worn but still plenty of life in it. 
Expensive but me likey

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on June 06, 2017, 02:00:00 pm
Good to know tubeless is working for you Jibber. Interesting about the anchovies. Used one on the fat bike and worked fine. Took it out once home and repaired properly with a tubeless patch on the inside. No problem since then about 400km ago.
Hopefully the marathon supremes will be a good choice. A bit heavier than the ones but possibly a bit more hard wearing. Had a regular set previously on the commuter and they were my all time favourites. Lasted ages.

I think the anchovy bit was in reference to tyres less than 30c but probably OK on MTB/FAT bike tyres I'd expect (lower pressures and all that)

I wouldn't say the anchovies are a problem but as ever YMMV. I've got 2 in my rear tyre and one of them has been there for over three thousand miles. I did have three but the third was plugging a large cut from glass which started to grow and unseat the anchovy so I patched it internally. This is on sector 28's at about 80psi.

I changed the goo the other week and it looks like an inside out hedgehog, if I ever have to put a tube in it's going to take half a day to remove all the sharps.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tippers_kiwi on June 06, 2017, 02:09:38 pm
Malcolm has posted a pretty good article recently (there is also a video in his latest news which is, umm, interesting) on living with tubeless.

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres (https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres)

Malcolm is keen to convert the world to tubeless and considering the mileage, range of bikes and various type of riding he does I think he is a pretty good ambassador for the set up. He's the only reason I am still even marginally considering it as an option.

The info on CO2 and it's effect on the sealant is of special interest I expect.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on June 06, 2017, 08:03:24 pm
I have other reasons to not use CO2, but I'm now at the point where I expect tubeless to go up easily with a track pump. CO2 doesn't play well with most sealant I understand

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on June 06, 2017, 09:34:25 pm
An interesting article and video. Thanks for the links.

What experience does anyone have of whether a fully deflated tyre, following a major puncture, will pop off the rim? The context is that I'm currently carrying a tube around for 'fixing' damage which the sealant fails to fix. I can see that it's inevitably messy if I had to use it but the advantage is that, with a tube, the tyre *can* be re-inflated even if a) it's popped off the rim for some reason, or b) I've taken it off deliberately since a tyre boot was the only way of fixing a major slash (I'm thinking bigger than can be plugged with an anchovy here, so the only alternative to an internal tyre boot would be super glue alone).

I'd like to only carry anchovies / glue, but it does seem that the scenario where the tyre is demounted from the rim is terminal with just that kit since it's never going to re-seat with a tiny hand pump. With a tube, the options for recovery are extended. I'd like to be convinced otherwise.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on June 06, 2017, 09:54:10 pm
Probably depends on the rim and tyre combination. Schwalbe One on Kinlin Tvrims would probably go up with a mini pump. Likewise Vittoria Corsa Speed G+ TL(!) on Pacenti SL23.

Other combinations may not work as easily, or may need more than a single wrap of tape. It still takes a bit of experimenting to find out what new combinations work, but I've found the Schwalbe Kinlin interface to be reliable and easy.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on June 06, 2017, 10:07:27 pm
Malcolm has posted a pretty good article recently (there is also a video in his latest news which is, umm, interesting) on living with tubeless.

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres (https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres)

Malcolm is keen to convert the world to tubeless and considering the mileage, range of bikes and various type of riding he does I think he is a pretty good ambassador for the set up. He's the only reason I am still even marginally considering it as an option.

The info on CO2 and it's effect on the sealant is of special interest I expect.

Interesting . The sealant is in contact with air all the time as you pump up your tyre with air. So not convinced about this PH thing when it also meets air on the outside. I haven't carried spare tubes on my road bike for 2.5 years now. The superglue tip is a nice one though.  Just need to get a puncture in my tyres after 3 and a bit years now.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on June 06, 2017, 10:14:17 pm
Malcolm has posted a pretty good article recently (there is also a video in his latest news which is, umm, interesting) on living with tubeless.

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres (https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres)

Malcolm is keen to convert the world to tubeless and considering the mileage, range of bikes and various type of riding he does I think he is a pretty good ambassador for the set up. He's the only reason I am still even marginally considering it as an option.

The info on CO2 and it's effect on the sealant is of special interest I expect.


Interesting . The sealant is in contact with air all the time as you pump up your tyre with air. So not convinced about this PH thing when it also meets air on the outside. I haven't carried spare tubes on my road bike for 2.5 years now. The superglue tip is a nice one though.  Just need to get a puncture in my tyres after 3 and a bit years now.

I'm inclined to agree. The depressurization may lead to some evaporation, or more likely atomization, of the water carrier that would allow the latex and filler to dry out and clump. Whatever, it works and Malcolm is a bright chap who has an entirely sensible and scientific approach to wheels, for example.

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on June 06, 2017, 10:16:51 pm
Found this 1992 European patent for tubeless sealant which pretty much describes the basis of what we are seeing now.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/d516d6a2615f5e71ced5/EP0508669A1.pdf
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Christophe on June 10, 2017, 06:25:37 pm
So here's a thing. I've just built a set of wheels for my next off road project. Tyres installed and juiced up with stans. I have stans seeping through the rim joint. It does seal but if I apply pressure on the wheel it starts to leak. What to do? Thought about putting superglue along the joint to try and seal before I remount the tyre. Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on June 10, 2017, 07:13:04 pm
So here's a thing. I've just built a set of wheels for my next off road project. Tyres installed and juiced up with stans. I have stans seeping through the rim joint. It does seal but if I apply pressure on the wheel it starts to leak. What to do? Thought about putting superglue along the joint to try and seal before I remount the tyre. Any other suggestions?

Bit odd - usually the spoke tension should be sufficient to ensure the rim seals, plus the tape should sort.

What are the rims?

I've been using some 25mm wide tape - equivalent to the Effeto Mariposa tape - that cover the full rim bed and onto the should of my rims. That may help, together with the tyre bead?

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on June 11, 2017, 09:39:00 am
So here's a thing. I've just built a set of wheels for my next off road project. Tyres installed and juiced up with stans. I have stans seeping through the rim joint. It does seal but if I apply pressure on the wheel it starts to leak. What to do? Thought about putting superglue along the joint to try and seal before I remount the tyre. Any other suggestions?

By "rim joint" you mean where the two ends of the piece that make the rim join to make a circle?
That sounds like a defective rim, get a return on it
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on June 11, 2017, 10:19:18 am
If you do mean the joint between the two ends of the rim then I had this with a set of cheap DT Swiss rims. There was no way of solving the problem without a new or replacement rim.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Torslanda on June 11, 2017, 01:05:51 pm
If the rim is described as"tubeless ready" then 'money back please'...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Bobby on June 26, 2017, 07:17:03 am
After 2 years of faultlessly working... https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=101247.msg2181684#msg2181684 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=101247.msg2181684#msg2181684)

Off to go buy some stans tape...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on June 26, 2017, 08:12:23 am
The thing missing at the moment from my armory is some sort of rapid inflation things....
I've got a topeak race rocket mini but I've never tried to pump up the tubeless with it (they seem to be going so well at the moment  :o)

Any recommendations? I'm off to Maastricht by bike on Friday morning, so feeling like I might needs something CO2 based as an insurance... (plus for LEL obvs...)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on June 26, 2017, 11:20:13 am
... so feeling like I might needs something CO2 based as an insurance... (plus for LEL obvs...)
Seems CO2 and tubeless sealants are not a good combination.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on June 26, 2017, 04:55:08 pm
I wouldnt be using it as a permanent solution - I've a track pump and air can at home for anything like that, so would plan to let the air out at home and pump back up... heck I could even replace the sealent at home if needs be...

I'd would rather not be stuck in the middle of nowhere so this is purely about emergency air when out in the field (I've got an adapter for car pumps if one is near by).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Frank9755 on June 27, 2017, 11:06:50 am
Just take a tube.  It happens so rarely.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on June 27, 2017, 11:27:03 am
Thanks Frank - will stick with the original plan then :)  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on July 13, 2017, 07:18:48 pm
So who saw the ITV4 Chris Boardman piece recently about putting sealant in tyres? (and pondering why the pros don't do it).

Were they showing tubeless, or old-fashioned clinchers with sealant added?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Brucey on July 14, 2017, 10:07:55 am
So who saw the ITV4 Chris Boardman piece recently about putting sealant in tyres? (and pondering why the pros don't do it).

Were they showing tubeless, or old-fashioned clinchers with sealant added?

They were showing tubeless I think.  He was pondering why it was that the pros wouldn't want that extra watt or two in return for such puncture resistance. I can think of a few reasons;

1) pros have spare wheels and spare bikes readily available.  Once or twice a season, a handful of riders (with something to lose) run a risk of being genuinely delayed in a stage race by a puncture on a narrow road, because of poor race service.
2) it is probably a greater loss than most folk suppose, or that testing on rollers shows; in the real world (rather than on Crr testing rollers) the whole wheel is jiggling up and down over bumps and  the losses are likely to be greater under these conditions.
3)  the whole setup is appreciably heavier than with tubs
4) in the event of a flat (and you will still get them), tubs are a known evil, handling wise. Tubeless, not so much.
5)it runs contra to the ethos of 'marginal gains' prevalent in pro cycling these days.

You might just as well ask why it is that the pros don't add sealant to the tubs they use at present; it would work as well, pretty much, and would be a fair bit lighter (for any given strength etc).

Arguably you could make significant gains in bike reliability by ditching electric gears; since they were first adopted in the peloton,  I don't think I've seen a major race where no-one had a 'duh, no gears' moment.

cheers

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: GrahamG on July 14, 2017, 10:26:25 am
I took it as adding sealant to tubs, don't think he was suggesting switching to whole new tyre/wheel systems.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on July 14, 2017, 03:56:18 pm
So who saw the ITV4 Chris Boardman piece recently about putting sealant in tyres? (and pondering why the pros don't do it).

Were they showing tubeless, or old-fashioned clinchers with sealant added?

They were showing tubeless I think.  He was pondering why it was that the pros wouldn't want that extra watt or two in return for such puncture resistance. I can think of a few reasons;

1) pros have spare wheels and spare bikes readily available.  Once or twice a season, a handful of riders (with something to lose) run a risk of being genuinely delayed in a stage race by a puncture on a narrow road, because of poor race service.
2) it is probably a greater loss than most folk suppose, or that testing on rollers shows; in the real world (rather than on Crr testing rollers) the whole wheel is jiggling up and down over bumps and  the losses are likely to be greater under these conditions.
3)  the whole setup is appreciably heavier than with tubs
4) in the event of a flat (and you will still get them), tubs are a known evil, handling wise. Tubeless, not so much.
5)it runs contra to the ethos of 'marginal gains' prevalent in pro cycling these days.

You might just as well ask why it is that the pros don't add sealant to the tubs they use at present; it would work as well, pretty much, and would be a fair bit lighter (for any given strength etc).

Arguably you could make significant gains in bike reliability by ditching electric gears; since they were first adopted in the peloton,  I don't think I've seen a major race where no-one had a 'duh, no gears' moment.

cheers

Do neutral support cars have to carry wheels everyone wants - pro cycling is full of superstition, including the marginal gains stuff;)


Of course, if you've an extra 50 watts in the seat tube, then you may not mind a couple of watts here or there
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ham on August 04, 2017, 09:24:39 am
I'm taking the jump into tubeless for my new commuter, with some trepidation. Stan's Notubes sounds like a safe bet for the kit, but how do you decide which width tape to use? the rims are 25mm Hydra (http://hplusson.com/node/44) - does that mean 25mm tape is right? Should I try a 25mm strip of paper or summat?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on August 11, 2017, 07:08:37 pm
I'm taking the jump into tubeless for my new commuter, with some trepidation. Stan's Notubes sounds like a safe bet for the kit, but how do you decide which width tape to use? the rims are 25mm Hydra (http://hplusson.com/node/44) - does that mean 25mm tape is right? Should I try a 25mm strip of paper or summat?

The external dimension is 25mm  you want the internal, which is less.  Maybe 21mm
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on August 11, 2017, 09:16:04 pm
I used schwalbe kit with 21mm on my archetypes if that helps
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on August 25, 2017, 01:38:32 pm
I've updated my blog article to take into account the problems that co2 has with sealant
https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/whats-so-great-about-tubeless-tyres/

Next experiment will be putting some Bontrager AW2 Hard Case Lite 23mm tyres on the winter pub bike (it can't take wide tyres) and using Orange sealant. 

I've used the somewhat bizarrely named "Bontrager AW2 Hard Case Lite" in a previous non-tubeless version and found them to be pretty good

Everyone says Orange sealant can cope better with large holes

Hopefully the two together will make a good winter tyre combination
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: tippers_kiwi on September 06, 2017, 03:59:52 pm
After all my previous woes I'm back on tubeless for another run at it.

I've just mounted some IRC Formula Pro X-Guards (http://irc-tire.com/en/bc/products/formula/) on my Fixed bike which is what I will use for my Winter Audaxing and general riding.  These tyres are apparently about as solid as you can get for tubeless so fingers crossed they hold up for me. They definitely feel more substantial but the marketing blurb would suggest you loose little in the way of rolling resistance and they are definitely still comfortable.

I decided to give it another go after a few reasonably good mile on the WTB Horizons that I put on the 650b wheels. The only issue I had there was a rusty nail I picked up off road managed to find it's way through the tread AND the sidewall :-(. Using them through the winter for audaxing, general riding and some London commuting should give me some confidence in the whole set up come the new season.

I'll give some updates as things progress. The Flatlands 600 this weekend will be their first long outing after some London commuting during the week.

EDIT:
I should add that I think in the past the issues I did encounter were part of a learning curve and a few things that I think I got wrong were,

1. Using Stans Sealant which some now recognise as not being the best at Road Pressures and absolutely not with CO2
2. When I have had a puncture I have been too quick to rip the bead off and put a tube in. This video from Malcolm showed me that https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/tubeless-tyre-road-side-repair
3. Not carrying the correct kit with me to deal with possible slashes in the tyre

Having now seen a few live examples of holes sealing after a quick stop and finger held over the top and the video of the worm and super glue I'm once again hoping that I can get moving and confident that it will work.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on September 06, 2017, 10:09:23 pm
I posted this on another thread, as I'm looking at tubeless

from another forum, but very interesting:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/maxxis-padrone-tubeless-242537.html (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/maxxis-padrone-tubeless-242537.html)



Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 14, 2017, 02:11:57 pm
I posted this on another thread, as I'm looking at tubeless

from another forum, but very interesting:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/maxxis-padrone-tubeless-242537.html (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/maxxis-padrone-tubeless-242537.html)

I read part of that thread but realised that it is mainly discussing products.  And the thread is 6 years old.  So half the products are not available now, or they have changed.  So not useful
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on September 14, 2017, 03:12:14 pm
Is TG still using tubeless on the current attempt?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 16, 2017, 10:56:51 am
The "Bontrager AW2 TLR Road Tyre 700 x 24c" are on with Orange Seal

The tyres remind me of Hutchinson Intensive, they measure up to 23.5mm (not the headline 24mm) even on my wide-ish Archetypes

Orange Seal smells pleasantly of oranges, which is nice.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on September 19, 2017, 08:22:52 pm
Has anyone tried tractor sealant watered down? it seems to be a thing on singletrack apparently. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OKO-TYRE-SEALANT-ANTI-PUNCTURE-OFF-ROAD-1250ML-STOP-PUNCTURES/182124416574?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&clk_rvr_id=1314272698092&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true

Water:sealant  2:1

Quote
Currently using the OKO tractor stuff someone off here recommended diluted 2:1 (water:OKO), which makes it about 10%* of the cost of stans. Seems to be working so far (sealed the tyres fine, and one known saled puncture which was the reason for taking the tyre off to top up). Certainly looks like it needs diluting, it's the consistency of thick cream!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 19, 2017, 08:54:34 pm
Has anyone tried tractor sealant watered down? it seems to be a thing on singletrack apparently. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OKO-TYRE-SEALANT-ANTI-PUNCTURE-OFF-ROAD-1250ML-STOP-PUNCTURES/182124416574?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&clk_rvr_id=1314272698092&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true

Water:sealant  2:1

Quote
Currently using the OKO tractor stuff someone off here recommended diluted 2:1 (water:OKO), which makes it about 10%* of the cost of stans. Seems to be working so far (sealed the tyres fine, and one known saled puncture which was the reason for taking the tyre off to top up). Certainly looks like it needs diluting, it's the consistency of thick cream!

It's so cheap might be worth trying in the interests of science
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 04, 2017, 02:16:20 pm
Vittoria Adventure Trails is mentioned in this review of gravel bike tyres as "a fantastic dirt road touring tire, winter and training tire" and it's tubeless

http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviews/7-best-gravel-road-tires

Planet-X have them on special for eight quid (plus postage...but still)

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TYVIADVT2/vittoria-adventure-trail-ii-tnt-tubeless-ready-700c-tyre
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on October 04, 2017, 03:42:42 pm
Vittoria Adventure Trails is mentioned in this review of gravel bike tyres as "a fantastic dirt road touring tire, winter and training tire" and it's tubeless

http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviews/7-best-gravel-road-tires

Planet-X have them on special for eight quid (plus postage...but still)

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TYVIADVT2/vittoria-adventure-trail-ii-tnt-tubeless-ready-700c-tyre

I was hoping it was something between 30 & 35 - quest continues!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Jeff E on October 05, 2017, 09:43:54 pm
I have been running Schwalbe G One Allround Tubeless 35mm tyres for about 4 months and have got 4200 miles out of them so far.   There is hardly any wear on the front and although there is plenty of wear on the rear, I have not yet had any p.......S.     40-50 psi (depending on your weight (@ 71kg I run them at 45psi)). seems best to me, as any more than that increases the rate of wear.    They are a lot faster than the Conti 4 Seasons 25mm that I used to use, especially up bumpy hills.     The tread suits both on and off road
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on October 06, 2017, 05:48:34 am
my 1st set of tubeless tyres .... 2017 IRC Formula Pro RBCC tubeless

I've only done a few km's so far and liking them but still need to play around with tyre pressures.

I have them fitted on HED Belgium plus rims with Chris King R45 hubs (ceramic bearing upgrade). I bought the 25mm but should have bought the 28mm as the 25mm measure exactly 25mm on these rims.

My previous tyres on these rims were Specialized Turbo Cotton in 24mm and they measured approx 27.5mm on the rims. My Giant TCR is an older model and I need to be carefull with tyre width as there is not much space (a 25mm Conti GP4000SII measures just over 28mm on these rims, and thats as wide as my frame will accept)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on October 16, 2017, 05:16:32 pm
I recently fitted a pair of Schwalbe One tubeless to a set of Deda Zero 2 wheels, using Schwalbe's Tubeless Kit, and was surprised at how incredibly straightforward and easy the whole process was. I've only been out for a couple of rides so far but all seems to be in order.

Today, I tried to install a Maxxis Padrone on a Mavic Ksyrium Elite UST and it's been a frickin' nightmare.

The tyre went onto the rim easily enough - perhaps too easily, as I could get it on by hand, without the need for soapy water or even tyre levers. I used the Truflo Airstore pump to deliver that initial shot of air to seat the tyre but there wasn't enough of a seal for it to hold the air for even a few seconds. None the less, I then added the sealant (Doc Blue) and tried to inflate the tyre but it wouldn't hold any air and I've just ended up with a puddle of sealant on the garage floor.

I assumed that since it was a UST wheel, it wouldn't need rim tape. Is this correct or am I mistaken?

Anyone with experience of Mavic UST wheels have any bright ideas?

ETA: Turns out I'm an idiot. I just had another look at the wheels. They're not UST. I was misled by the external spoke attachments but on closer inspection, the rim bed is the wrong shape - it doesn't have the 'shoulders' for the tyre bead to sit on. The bike they came with was specced with the UST wheels but I should have read the rim label properly... :facepalm:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 16, 2017, 07:46:39 pm
I put the eight quid tyres on the bike at the weekend

They are heavy but reasonably ok

Pics on the blog
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on November 12, 2017, 03:01:48 pm
update.
The Vittoria Adventure tyres did the Dartmoor Devil ( this is an 100km event on Dartmoor at the end of October with 2000m of ascent).  They are heavy, probably I was losing a bit on the uphills but gaining  ( a bit less) on the downhills as the size of the tyres and the pronounced tread meant that full speed descents on unsuitable lanes were much more possible.  So basically a success.  I like the tyres

As for the Bontrager AW2 23.5mm tyres today I had a new failure mode with them.  I hit something which I think gave me a sidewall hole.  There was a pressure loss.  Then the tyre lost its seal.  Not sure if the sidewall hole or the lack of seal did it but it was impossible to pump up again.  Not with the hand pump at the time, not with a track pump and not even with an air bottle.  Added more sealant, same result.

So I've put a Schwalbe One with not much wear on instead.   Less than two months to destruction for the AW2 but with a sample size of one that doesn't tell us much.  The bike does about 50km a week commuting plus an additional 50km at the weekend or to the pub sometimes.  So I would guess that 8 weeks is approx 500-600km.  There were two large holes in the tread plus possibly this sidewall hole which I couldn't find when the tyre was off
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Bobby on January 11, 2018, 12:10:40 pm
I have pacenti SL25 rims, but still find Stans 25mm tape is not quite wide enough to sit all the way up to the side wall (so can catch on the tyre bead, making it harder to seat tyres and possibly lift letting leaks occur into the spoke holes).

I guess I should try 27mm & pull it tight enough to pull down into the rim bed, whilst covering the entire width.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 14, 2018, 12:58:58 pm
I'm running Schwalbe Ones. This morning I heard a rhythmic click click from the front. On arriving home I can see the flint embedded in the tread, right on the crown. No sign of sealant nor of pressure loss. Do I dig the flint out (bike on workstand and damage at the bottom to pool sealent just in case) or do I leave it be and see what happens...?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on January 14, 2018, 01:07:38 pm
I'm running Schwalbe Ones. This morning I heard a rhythmic click click from the front. On arriving home I can see the flint embedded in the tread, right on the crown. No sign of sealant nor of pressure loss. Do I dig the flint out (bike on workstand and damage at the bottom to pool sealent just in case) or do I leave it be and see what happens...?

I'd take it out as if you don't, it will always bother you knowing that it's there
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on January 14, 2018, 01:10:10 pm
Got to pull it out - it may only be embedded in the tread right now and not have penetrated all the way through, but if you leave it in, it will do.

Maybe let the tyre pressure down a bit first before removing it to avoid it being forced out of the hole too quickly to seal?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on January 14, 2018, 01:47:37 pm
That was my thinking too - good call on de-pressurising first.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on January 14, 2018, 07:10:41 pm
Spin the wheel up too, both before and after pulling flint. Preferably outside and standing beside and not in front or behind the tyre🤦🏼‍♀️
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on January 20, 2018, 01:21:28 pm
A mad rush this morning as I was late for work. I forgot to transfer my spare inner tube, valve core remover and Orange sealant with me, and as luck has it, a puncture on the guided busway close to Longstanton (in heavy rain)

Most of the sealant escaped, and the hole would not seal. 20 minutes later, after frantic pumping with a shitty handpump, I bent the stem of the pump so decided to walk to the Longstanton Park and Ride, and get a Taxi home

£25 poorer, got home, added the last bit of my Orange sealant, and the hole still does not seal. It's not a large hole, but I will order more Orange sealant and the kit that plugs holes, and see if I can get it sorted next week

(https://dgtzuqphqg23d.cloudfront.net/6pWS3PDtfJG2L1E3Lh1g6RSVw77bZqs-nGmN5hPQF1w-2048x1536.jpg)

(https://dgtzuqphqg23d.cloudfront.net/G1fXuBu36JKbAVU4yqR3Jt6kLIzWVNK_0DtIrLDvsFM-1536x2048.jpg)

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on January 20, 2018, 02:15:11 pm
if the hole is a cut (i.e. not a pin hole) there is a high chance it will not seal at road tyre pressures. in that case a get-me-home solution can be a piece of duct tape (50-100cm) wrapped around both the rim and tyre over the cut. it will help to keep the air inside the tyre. rim brake has to be disengaged, obviously.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on January 21, 2018, 11:42:19 am
if the hole is a cut (i.e. not a pin hole) there is a high chance it will not seal at road tyre pressures. in that case a get-me-home solution can be a piece of duct tape (50-100cm) wrapped around both the rim and tyre over the cut. it will help to keep the air inside the tyre. rim brake has to be disengaged, obviously.

thanks for that ... it might be worthwhile to carry a bit of duct tape in future for long rides ...

I've had a close look and it's not a slit, it's a small hole, but it's too large for the Orange sealant to work.

It's an IRC Formula Pro RBCC tyre and from what I have read, the inside of these tyres have a lining which allows you to add a patch on the inside (the same patch that is used for fix a puncture on an inner tube)

The hole is not on the sidewall, so I will try adding a patch tomorrow and a good dab of superglue on the outside and see what happens ... I will also order the tyre worms from cycle clinic for future large punctures:
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/maxalami-tubeless-repair-tube (https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/maxalami-tubeless-repair-tube)

it will be a pity if I can't get it sorted, as the tyre still looks very good with lots of tread left .... If worse comes to worse, I will have to pay another £50 for a new tyre  :'(
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on January 24, 2018, 01:24:30 pm
well that worked very well ....

a Park Tool Super patch on the inside of the tyre .... a blob of superglue on the outside covering the hole (I'm not sure if the superglue was needed though), and 30ml of Orange sealant and it's fixed

took 10 minutes. I still need to get the tyre worm kit though
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on January 24, 2018, 08:24:12 pm
has anyone tried the newer Stans No Tubes Race Sealant? ....

it was recomended to me on another forum, and apparantly, it's better than the Orange Sealant as it seals larger holes
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on January 26, 2018, 08:47:43 pm
on another forum, I was told that adding glitter to the sealant helps seal larger holes .... is this BS or true?

I have read several threads (especially on MTB forums) that guys add glitter to the sealant, but I always thought that it was to see if you had small punctures that seal quickly (without you knowing) ... i.e. check your tyres after every ride, see some glitter and you know that you had a puncture

The orange sealant stains the tyre, but after a few km the stain is gone
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Bolt on January 26, 2018, 09:13:19 pm
I've read enough posts on using glitter in diy sealant to believe that people are actually using it, but I've also read in the same threads that they are also using human hair, sawdust, ground up innertubes  and other detritus in attempt to create their own sealant.   I swear that if we'd only ever had tubeless tyres that the invention of the innertube would be hailed as a miracle of biblical proportions.   
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on January 26, 2018, 11:04:35 pm
Seems like a great way to make your punctures more fabulous!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bikey-mikey on January 27, 2018, 06:35:23 pm
I've read enough posts on using glitter in diy sealant to believe that people are actually using it, but I've also read in the same threads that they are also using human hair, sawdust, ground up innertubes  and other detritus in attempt to create their own sealant.   I swear that if we'd only ever had tubeless tyres that the invention of the innertube would be hailed as a miracle of biblical proportions.

I've read enough posts on using glitter in diy sealant to believe that people are actually using it, but I've also read in the same threads that they are also using human hair, sawdust, ground up innertubes  and other detritus in attempt to create their own sealant.   I swear that if we'd only ever had tubeless tyres that the invention of the innertube would be hailed as a miracle of biblical proportions.

I've read enough posts on using glitter in diy sealant to believe that people are actually using it, but I've also read in the same threads that they are also using human hair, sawdust, ground up innertubes  and other detritus in attempt to create their own sealant.   I swear that if we'd only ever had tubeless tyres that the invention of the innertube would be hailed as a miracle of biblical proportions.

Ho ho ho...

Every sealant I have ever used in over 150,000 kms of Audax has worked subject only to extremely nasty open wounds.....

The jest about the inner tube is as funny as saying that if we as a species lived on electricity generated from biological solar panels, the invention of assholes would be a miracle of biblical proportions, and we could henceforth eat cakes...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on January 27, 2018, 07:50:00 pm
I reckon it's more like if contact lenses had been invented before glasses.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on January 27, 2018, 09:02:57 pm
I reckon it's more like if contact lenses had been invented before glasses.
Often you say things I don't understand and I assume it is your superior intelligence
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Bolt on January 27, 2018, 10:32:40 pm
I've read enough posts on using glitter in diy sealant to believe that people are actually using it, but I've also read in the same threads that they are also using human hair, sawdust, ground up innertubes  and other detritus in attempt to create their own sealant.   I swear that if we'd only ever had tubeless tyres that the invention of the innertube would be hailed as a miracle of biblical proportions.

Ho ho ho...

Every sealant I have ever used in over 150,000 kms of Audax has worked subject only to extremely nasty open wounds.....

The jest about the inner tube is as funny as saying that if we as a species lived on electricity generated from biological solar panels, the invention of assholes would be a miracle of biblical proportions, and we could henceforth eat cakes...

... but I'd gladly swap solar panels for a bum hole if it meant I could eat cake ;D
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kim on January 27, 2018, 11:12:12 pm
I reckon it's more like if contact lenses had been invented before glasses.
Often you say things I don't understand and I assume it is your superior intelligence

They both have advantages and disadvantages.  Whichever came first is normal and ordinary.  The newcomer is revolutionary for some people with specific needs, and embraced wholeheartedly by them.  Others don't see what the point is, and may see it as a newness-for-newness-sake solution to a non-problem.

Lenses that don't steam up are like tyres that don't get snakebites.  Brilliant for the people that care.  People who only need vision correction to read might not see why it's worth faffing about with all that fluid and eyeball-poking stuff, just as people who run tyres at high pressures and aren't massively fussed about rolling resistance might not see the point in tubeless.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on March 11, 2018, 09:59:44 pm
i need to service my tubeless tyres as the sealant pooled up and dried out in one place unbalancing the wheels. searching for the options i've come across this product that looks promising, i'd be keen to try it out:

http://reviews.mtbr.com/frostbike-2018-finish-lines-new-sealant-that-never-dries-out (http://reviews.mtbr.com/frostbike-2018-finish-lines-new-sealant-that-never-dries-out)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on March 12, 2018, 11:04:15 am
i need to service my tubeless tyres as the sealant pooled up and dried out in one place unbalancing the wheels. searching for the options i've come across this product that looks promising, i'd be keen to try it out:

http://reviews.mtbr.com/frostbike-2018-finish-lines-new-sealant-that-never-dries-out (http://reviews.mtbr.com/frostbike-2018-finish-lines-new-sealant-that-never-dries-out)

which sealant are you using at present?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on March 12, 2018, 11:23:38 am
which sealant are you using at present?

conti revo (the wheels sat unused for a couple of months..)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on March 12, 2018, 04:48:54 pm
i need to service my tubeless tyres as the sealant pooled up and dried out in one place unbalancing the wheels. searching for the options i've come across this product that looks promising, i'd be keen to try it out:

http://reviews.mtbr.com/frostbike-2018-finish-lines-new-sealant-that-never-dries-out (http://reviews.mtbr.com/frostbike-2018-finish-lines-new-sealant-that-never-dries-out)
Have you found a supplier yet? I'm almost out of cafelatex so could experiment with this...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on March 12, 2018, 05:04:18 pm
i need to service my tubeless tyres as the sealant pooled up and dried out in one place unbalancing the wheels. searching for the options i've come across this product that looks promising, i'd be keen to try it out:

http://reviews.mtbr.com/frostbike-2018-finish-lines-new-sealant-that-never-dries-out (http://reviews.mtbr.com/frostbike-2018-finish-lines-new-sealant-that-never-dries-out)
Have you found a supplier yet? I'm almost out of cafelatex so could experiment with this...

haven't found where to get it yet, the product is still very new so i think it will become available in the next couple of months. i still have some "old style" sealant to go through before i test the finish line. maybe worth asking their uk importers (whoever they are)?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on March 12, 2018, 06:05:50 pm
Yes, I have about 150ml left of cafelatex so next month I'll be on the lookout I suspect
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on March 12, 2018, 06:09:50 pm
Tweets are offering it for ore-order for April delivery. Up to 1l.

https://www.tweekscycles.com/Product.do?method=view&n=3570&g=1464062&p=1463989&d=124&c=4&l=2&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Base&utm_campaign=Tyre%20Liners%20&%20Sealant&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIudzJu7Dn2QIVrZPtCh0itA1LEAQYASABEgIe7PD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on March 12, 2018, 08:02:58 pm
Speaking of sealant, are any of them non-slippery?

I’m thinking about what happens with a puncture at speed. Clinchers already give less control than tubulars in this scenario, and lubricating the inside of the tyre doesn’t sound like it would improve matters. With lubrication, the flat tyre would walk sideways uncontrollably as a constant supply of new tyre arrives with the rotating wheel. The fatter the tyre, the more walking could take place.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on March 12, 2018, 08:30:27 pm
Speaking of sealant, are any of them non-slippery?

I’m thinking about what happens with a puncture at speed. Clinchers already give less control than tubulars in this scenario, and lubricating the inside of the tyre doesn’t sound like it would improve matters. With lubrication, the flat tyre would walk sideways uncontrollably as a constant supply of new tyre arrives with the rotating wheel. The fatter the tyre, the more walking could take place.

it doesn't work that way. when the tyre is punctured it takes quite some time for the pressure to drop until the tyre flattens. even when i had a 1cm sidewall gash (on a 23mm tyre) it took almost 10sec for the air to escape with a loud hiss - plenty of time to slow down and stop safely. with tubeless sealant it's almost impossible for the pressure to drop to almost zero as the sealant minimises air escape or completely stops it. i think this new sealant (if it does what they claim) is a major improvement in tubeless tyres technology and removes a lot of faff and headache.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: dim on March 12, 2018, 09:10:09 pm
I used Orange sealant with very good results .... 3 punctures that I know of, and all 3 sealed. Then I rode over a broken bottle and got a long slash in my tire. It sealed at low pressure but I used a tyre worm which sorted it. Once home,I removed the tyre worm and used an old fashioned patch with the old vulcanised glue on the inside of the tyre. (With IRC tyres, this can be done)

Over the patch, I used a Park Tool tyre boot. It's worked, and the tyre keeps pressure and has held up well. When I refitted the tyre, I tried the new Slime STR Premium sealant. I read good reviews, but the 60ml that I added did not seal the sides of the tyres and I then added some Orange sealant, and it sealed and mounted properly with a track pump

so, I'm not sure if the Slime is better than the orange sealant, as I have not had another puncture yet, but it did not seal the tyre when I re-mounted it

I have a new  commuter bike/training bike that I will use with tubeless (I will try Hutchinson Sector 28's first, trhen some Compass tyres), but on my fast bike, I will be going back to Specialized Turbo Cotton clinchers

Keep us updated on the Finish Line Sealant



Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Bolt on March 12, 2018, 10:29:01 pm
Tweets are offering it for ore-order for April delivery. Up to 1l.

https://www.tweekscycles.com/Product.do?method=view&n=3570&g=1464062&p=1463989&d=124&c=4&l=2&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Base&utm_campaign=Tyre%20Liners%20&%20Sealant&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIudzJu7Dn2QIVrZPtCh0itA1LEAQYASABEgIe7PD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

So despite the apparently eye watering expense, the actual cost per road tyre according to my questionable maths comes out at ~ between £3.50 and £5.00 depending on the quantity you buy.  I wonder what the shelf life actually is given that the "usable life" of a tyre could vary by many years depending on the rider?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on March 13, 2018, 04:12:54 pm
Actually, I’ve been using Orange Seal endurance, but if this seals as well I’d buy a gallon and be happy to share some around at cost if anyone wanted? I’ve already got loads of tape...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: TigaSefi on March 16, 2018, 11:35:49 am
As i have no clue about tubeless, this is the perfect place to ask if my mavic cosmic elite 23 clincher wheelset 2017 is tubeless friendly or not?

TIA

Sefi
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on March 16, 2018, 11:43:24 am
As i have no clue about tubeless, this is the perfect place to ask if my mavic cosmic elite 23 clincher wheelset 2017 is tubeless friendly or not?

Does it say "UST" on the rim? If so, yes, they're tubeless friendly. If it doesn't, they're not.

IIRC, the Cosmic Elite come in both a UST and non-UST version...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: TigaSefi on March 16, 2018, 11:45:21 am
As i have no clue about tubeless, this is the perfect place to ask if my mavic cosmic elite 23 clincher wheelset 2017 is tubeless friendly or not?

Does it say "UST" on the rim? If so, yes, they're tubeless friendly. If it doesn't, they're not.

IIRC, the Cosmic Elite come in both a UST and non-UST version...
Can’t see anything that says UST so that’ll be a no.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on March 16, 2018, 11:50:38 am
I've just taken delivery of a set of ERE Research Omnia 28mm tubeless tyres - might have a go at fitting them ahead of the Man of Kent this weekend, assuming it's not snowed off...
https://www.ereresearch.com/tires/omnia
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on March 16, 2018, 11:53:12 am
As i have no clue about tubeless, this is the perfect place to ask if my mavic cosmic elite 23 clincher wheelset 2017 is tubeless friendly or not?

TIA

Sefi

No, Mavic launched tubeless on their 2018 wheels which were available late 2017. IF you bought them as a wheelset and they are tubeless ready they would have been supplied with Yksion Pro UST tyres and a bottle of goo.

No (https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Mavic/Cosmic-Elite-23-Clincher-Wheelset-2017/9MWK)

Yes (https://www.merlincycles.com/mavic-cosmic-elite-ust-road-wheels-2018-105669.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-GB&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Factory+Road+Wheels&ucpo=45355&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1q3VBRCFARIsAPHJXrFFKTyMgV-Ujis-jma3Vl874a_XdZgNJle_X99NrlXP0XqMT5N2lvoaAg4GEALw_wcB)

UST are the magic letters as far as Mavic are concerned

Edit : Beaten to it
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on March 16, 2018, 11:54:54 am
Can’t see anything that says UST so that’ll be a no.

See upthread for my tale of woe trying to fit tubeless tyres to non-UST Mavic wheels...

(In my defence, I was led to believe they were UST wheels, but I didn't check properly before starting the job.)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on March 16, 2018, 11:58:41 am
UST are the magic letters as far as Mavic are concerned

To be fair, what the manufacturer says isn't always definitive - I've been using a set of Deda Zero2 wheels, which the supplier told me were tubeless compatible, so I fitted tubeless tyres and they worked a treat. But if you look on Deda's website, it clearly says they're not tubeless compatible...  ???
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on March 16, 2018, 12:02:10 pm
UST are the magic letters as far as Mavic are concerned

To be fair, what the manufacturer says isn't always definitive - I've been using a set of Deda Zero2 wheels, which the supplier told me were tubeless compatible, so I fitted tubeless tyres and they worked a treat. But if you look on Deda's website, it clearly says they're not tubeless compatible...  ???

Oh there's lots of stories of folk using tubeless on what manufacturers say are non-compatible....and there are tales of tyres rolling off rims, in my mind that's not worth the risk. YMMV
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on March 16, 2018, 12:10:55 pm
I didn't realise I was going against manufacturer's advice - only found out about that later. The supplier (UK distributor) said they were tubeless compatible, and I had no reason not to believe him!

I'll have to ask him about it - it's possible they were intended to be sold as tubeless-compatible but Deda changed their mind due to lack of testing or something. I can imagine them erring on the side of caution about something like that.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on March 16, 2018, 12:23:42 pm
It wasn't a dig  :)

Agree they would err on the side of caution, just bear in mind that "or something" could be catastrophic test failure, unlikely but do let us know if the tyre rolls off while cornering at 40mph  ;)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on March 16, 2018, 12:34:49 pm
It's whether or not the tyre rolls when totally flat, I think. Tubeless rims have a notch
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: TigaSefi on March 16, 2018, 02:15:00 pm
Can’t see anything that says UST so that’ll be a no.

See upthread for my tale of woe trying to fit tubeless tyres to non-UST Mavic wheels...

(In my defence, I was led to believe they were UST wheels, but I didn't check properly before starting the job.)

I saw which is why I asked :)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fd3 on March 20, 2018, 10:47:41 am
Yafp!  Currently running 38mm Hutchinsons on open pro.  What rims should I try for tubeless?  The rear is fixed so in theory I should be able to run something light with no brake surface, but need v brakes at front.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on March 20, 2018, 06:06:06 pm
I've just taken delivery of a set of ERE Research Omnia 28mm tubeless tyres - might have a go at fitting them ahead of the Man of Kent this weekend, assuming it's not snowed off...
https://www.ereresearch.com/tires/omnia

Fitted them this afternoon. Everything went on a treat, no fitting problems. Used Effetto Mariposa Caffèlatex tape for the rims - one 8m reel was exactly the right amount for two layers of tape for two wheels. Each tyre came supplied with its own small bottle of Stan's sealant and a valve - no core removal tool but luckily I already have a couple knocking about.

Will report back when I've ridden them enough to make a worthwhile assessment...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on March 20, 2018, 06:34:53 pm
I bought some Hutchinson Fusion 5s cheap recently, a set of all weather, and a set of Galaxy (lightest). Really tempted to fit them to my Fulcrum Carbon Quattro Disc wheels (not officially tubeless compatible)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: teethgrinder on March 21, 2018, 07:48:28 am
I used Orange sealant with very good results .... 3 punctures that I know of, and all 3 sealed. Then I rode over a broken bottle and got a long slash in my tire. It sealed at low pressure but I used a tyre worm which sorted it. Once home, I removed the tyre worm and used an old fashioned patch with the old vulcanised glue on the inside of the tyre. (With IRC tyres, this can be done)

Over the patch, I used a Park Tool tyre boot. It's worked, and the tyre keeps pressure and has held up well. When I refitted the tyre, I tried the new Slime STR Premium sealant. I read good reviews, but the 60ml that I added did not seal the sides of the tyres and I then added some Orange sealant, and it sealed and mounted properly with a track pump

so, I'm not sure if the Slime is better than the orange sealant, as I have not had another puncture yet, but it did not seal the tyre when I re-mounted it

I have a new  commuter bike/training bike that I will use with tubeless (I will try Hutchinson Sector 28's first, trhen some Compass tyres), but on my fast bike, I will be going back to Specialized Turbo Cotton clinchers

Keep us updated on the Finish Line Sealant

I talked to the mechanic in Trek about sealant. He was raving about Orange sealant. They had a knackered tyre, I think it might have been a faulty one, that they couldn't inflate with any sealant they had in the shop. A company rep came over and gave them some Orange sealant and the tyre was fine. If I wasn't sponsored by Schwalbe I'd have probably used Orange, though saying that, Schwalbe (which I think is still re-branded Stans) is a very good sealant. Some sealants do work better than others. I've also heard if people adding glitter to their sealant so that it can pug bigger holes. I haven't tried that myself and don't know of anyone who has.
Another thing I was told is to never mix sealants because they can counteract each other and not work as well. So if you're changing brands of sealant you need to give your wheels and tyres a thorough clean, probably better still to swap when replacing a worn tyre.

I've probably ridden close to 200,000 miles on tubeless now. Only on road so far. The sealant doesn't work very well for long slashes of over 1cm (I've got some tyres with cuts of that size that I intend to try and patch up) or very big holes so I carried a spare tyre and some tubes.
I definitely got the impression that sealant tech has improved in the last 3 years. I seemed to have fewer incidents of having to pump up tyres several times last year than I did in 2015. I may have had even fewer incidents if I wasn't using very light tyres.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: SoreTween on April 06, 2018, 03:48:46 pm
Is it normal to get weeping through the rim join like this?
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/791/27403524728_f83bb0d416_k.jpg)
That's after I've wiped away the fluid several times.  First time it was quite a leak, I've probably lost a cc or so.

It claims to be a tubeless ready rim.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on April 06, 2018, 03:54:27 pm
^^ it looks like the rim tape is too narrow and the rim needs to be re-taped. the tape should ride up the hook (1-2mm) and overlap with the tyre bead making a tight(ish) seal.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: SoreTween on April 06, 2018, 05:13:34 pm
The tape is about a mm onto the horizontal (struggling for the right word there) of the rim, there's about 1.5mm of flat beyond the tape before the corner.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/795/39468004350_f8e357cd5c_k.jpg)
There is a line of residue at about the mid point of the flat of the tyre suggesting it is half on / half off the tape
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/808/39468227400_62213c3431_k.jpg)
I tried running tape across the rim trimmed to the top of the sidewall before the bulge:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/886/40563417004_fba0c59356_z.jpg)
No difference.
The air is definitely coming through the rim join not up 'n over.
There's a really healthy pop as the tyre hops up onto the flat and the join starts hissing at about 35 psi.  Before trying the cross tape I'd inflated the tyre to around 50 psi half a dozen times, it seems Orange Seal Endurance won't work on aluminium.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on April 06, 2018, 06:07:18 pm
that's what i thought - the tape is too narrow, it needs to go up the vertical part 1-2mm (the inner side of brake track)

edit: this is not a tubeless rim, but the tape should be done like this:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180406/494bad7c3b2cd6782fbb41b765fedb62.jpg)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: SoreTween on April 06, 2018, 06:16:14 pm
Bum.  Thank you zigzag.

Sigh, proves I at least am in the correct thread  :(
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on April 06, 2018, 10:58:44 pm
Fundamentally whilst it is a tubeless ready rim, it is so badly made that it will never work properly.  Even there done all of that!

Buy another rim!!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on May 26, 2018, 10:49:43 am
I appear to have a slow puncture in a tubeless tyre. Or maybe a leak.

Which is to say that the rear tyre is going soft noticeably more quickly than the front, though not quickly enough to cause problems while riding - it just needs reinflating more often.

Any thoughts on what the cause may be, or how to identify the source of the leak?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on May 26, 2018, 10:55:10 am
Deflate it and unseat it, then pop it back and did fresh sealant. Pump up and shake / spin / bounce it about a bit.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on May 26, 2018, 11:03:25 am
Deflate it and unseat it, then pop it back and did fresh sealant. Pump up and shake / spin / bounce it about a bit.

Yeah, that sounds like a sensible plan. I was hoping there might be a way of testing it without removing the tyre but it seems unlikely.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andy64 on May 26, 2018, 02:44:06 pm
Few inches of water in a bath, then roll the wheel/tyre combo around
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on May 26, 2018, 10:22:23 pm
Few inches of water in a bath, then roll the wheel/tyre combo around

Sounds like a good way to end up with water inside the rim.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on May 27, 2018, 03:17:18 pm
Soap spray then?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on May 27, 2018, 05:34:01 pm
Taping may not have been done as well as front.  Give the rear wheel a few spins in all directions to see if a bit of sealant needs to get to the small gap that may exist somewhere.

Have you tried tightening the tubeless valve a bit more?. By hand but push valve down from inside whilst turning the knurled ring.

Reseat the tyre maybe a bit of bead is not seated perfectly air tight. You would need to do this after two anyway.

Did you vigorously shake the sealant in its bottle before putting some in the tyre?  Maybe the rear does not have many particles in the sealant and therefore it is not sealing small holes as well?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on May 27, 2018, 07:04:40 pm
Taping may not have been done as well as front.

That thought did cross my mind.

Quote
Give the rear wheel a few spins in all directions to see if a bit of sealant needs to get to the small gap that may exist somewhere.

That also occurred to me last night. So I did exactly that and left it overnight to see if it did the trick before trying anything more drastic... So far, so good. Will check it again tomorrow to but it seems to be holding its pressure just fine at the moment.

If it still feels fine by Tuesday, I'll assume that all is good. If not, I'll try retaping the rim, reseating the tyre and adding fresh sealant.

I will also be carrying inner tubes in my kit for The Scottish Ride, just to be on the safe side (would be doing that anyway).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on May 27, 2018, 09:16:19 pm
Don't forget new fivers for emergency tyre boots.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on May 27, 2018, 09:22:43 pm
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Plug1n on May 28, 2018, 12:29:02 pm
I'm deliberately asking for help in the Dummies thread, hopfully this relates to me not to the tubeless cognoscenti.

I have scanned the first 10 pages or so of the thread, then life intervened.....

Anyway, I have a commute over French forest trails and cyclepaths - 12km of which 95% is paved.

With all the recent storms and downpours, the paths are covered in various sorts of arborial debris and thorns.  Also the unpaved bits are becoming definitely flinty.

I had my first p* on this route last Friday on the way home, just a small hole from maybe a thorn in the tube, no visible evidence on the tyre.

Seems like a good case for tubeless, especially as I will be commuting over this route for at least another year.

Bike is a hybrid/  The wheels are currently Deore disk hubs, Alex XD-Lite rims (17.5mm inner width) and Conti Contact 32mm wired tyres (pre Contact 2) from 2009 but almost unused.

The wheels are perfect for the route, but what are my options to go tubeless?

My own thoughts are:

- a tubeless conversion of the wheels using a Stans kit
- new tubeless ready tyres (maybe Hutschison Sector 32s?)
- is there anything bigger than 32 that would be worth consdering

One downside I see on conversion is that the rims are pinned but being in good nick should be OK.

Do I really need to replace the tyres?

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on May 28, 2018, 03:00:55 pm
If you want an easy life just get 2 tubeless rims, Tesa tape (cheaper than tubeless tape) and some tubeless tyres. You'll need the tape, the valves and sealant regardless.

Personally I might stretch to using conventional rims, but definitely not conventional tyres. Shop around for the bits...the price difference between suppliers is astonishing. Try the German online retailers, bike-discount, starbike, rose, bike24 etc
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on June 04, 2018, 12:36:47 pm
Had my first proof-of-concept moment on Saturday. It had been raining and we were riding down a fairly skoggy lane, so it was almost inevitable that we’d hear that familiar hisssss...

Only this time it was accompanied by a jet of white goo spraying from my front tyre, Catherine wheel style, and a second or two later it just stopped and we carried on riding. I’d barely even lost any pressure in my tyre.

I did a little fist pump and a quiet whoop of joy. The chap riding alongside me was slightly gobsmacked, but I get the feeling he will be converting to tubeless as soon as he gets home.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fd3 on June 04, 2018, 03:24:30 pm
Tubeless sealant, is there a big difference between them or should I go with Schwalbe to match the tyres?  Also, should I buy the small bottles because the sealant will dry out in the big bottle, or buy the big bottle because I will get through it eventually?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on June 04, 2018, 03:31:10 pm
Tubeless sealant, is there a big difference between them or should I go with Schwalbe to match the tyres?  Also, should I buy the small bottles because the sealant will dry out in the big bottle, or buy the big bottle because I will get through it eventually?

I don't know the answer to the second question, but on the first, be aware that in many cases, there is no difference at all - in fact, I believe that Schwalbe's Doc Blue is actually relabelled Stan's. I think this is also true of some other own-label sealant as well - you can tell by the identical shape of the little bottles it comes in.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 04, 2018, 03:40:47 pm
Tubeless sealant, is there a big difference between them or should I go with Schwalbe to match the tyres?  Also, should I buy the small bottles because the sealant will dry out in the big bottle, or buy the big bottle because I will get through it eventually?

Stans is ok.

Orangeseal is reputed to seal larger holes.

The new (very expensive) Finish Line sealant has two massive advantages. It never dried out, so just replace if you puncture a few times, and unlike the others you can use CO2. (co2 causes other sealants to dry up)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on June 04, 2018, 03:44:00 pm
Tubeless sealant, is there a big difference between them or should I go with Schwalbe to match the tyres?  Also, should I buy the small bottles because the sealant will dry out in the big bottle, or buy the big bottle because I will get through it eventually?

Stans is ok.

Orangeseal is reputed to seal larger holes.

The new (very expensive) Finish Line sealant has two massive advantages. It never dried out, so just replace if you puncture a few times, and unlike the others you can use CO2. (co2 causes other sealants to dry up)

My mate has just used that, he says you need nearly twice as much as other sealants, so factor that into the cost but if it does last you'll recoup that.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 04, 2018, 06:16:43 pm
I have a litre of it. £40  :o

I think one needs to think carefully about it. If it's for an everyday bike then I'm not sure it makes sense, as it is likely you'll need to top up every 4 months anyway
 unless you use really tough tyres.

It makes sense for really light tyres that get used for a few months only and are then put away.

(or really tough tyres that rarely puncture,)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Si S on June 04, 2018, 06:29:20 pm
 :o
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fd3 on June 05, 2018, 11:53:14 pm
Rim tape, is this *really* important or another case of rebadging for profit?  PX sell  "Jobsworth" 10m for £2-3, "Schwalbe" is selling for £18.  Also, valves, are they all as good as each other or ... what should be looked for?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on June 06, 2018, 12:47:39 am
Rim tape, is this *really* important or another case of rebadging for profit?  PX sell  "Jobsworth" 10m for £2-3, "Schwalbe" is selling for £18. 

Having read somewhere (on t'internet, so it must have been true) that one of the rim manufacturers used custom-cut Gorilla tape, I serendipitously went into my local builders' merchant and saw a bloody great roll of the stuff on the shelf. My perspective having been changed so that I saw it as cheap tubeless rim tape rather than over-branded and expensive gaffer tape, I bought it and have been very happy with it - it's really easy to tear to the appropriate width, and cheap enough that if you need to retape, it's a minor hassle rather than a wallet-bleeding exercise.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 06, 2018, 08:07:47 am
A lot of people use Tesa tape too
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chris n on June 06, 2018, 08:16:32 am
I've been using Tesa 4289 tape in 25mm and 21mm widths - from eBay.  You need rather a lot - could be as much as 8m/wheel if you need 4 wraps for a loose tyre/rim.  When that runs out I'll give Gorilla tape a go.

I've used Stans and Hutchinson valves with no problems.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fd3 on June 06, 2018, 01:55:12 pm
That's all really helpful, thanks!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on June 06, 2018, 02:05:57 pm
i've read somewhere that gorilla tape absorbs moisture and gets heavier and heavier when used in tubeless rims, also the sealant dries out quicker because of that.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on June 07, 2018, 09:34:36 am
No evidence of that in my rims. When I've taken old tape off, it's not felt especially soggy, and there's still been plenty of sealant sloshing around in the tyres.
</anecdatum>
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on June 07, 2018, 09:58:07 am
The original Gorilla glue is PU glue so water activated (but waterproof when cured) however I am not sure if their tape shares anything other than brand name looking at their web site it does look like it is a different adhesive.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on June 13, 2018, 02:45:55 pm
What a waste of time Milkit valves have proven to be. A good idea but durable enough...  lasted less than a year, internal rod keeps falling off, so whilst I can put air in to the tyre, you can't easily let air out or take the pressure reading... I have finally gone back to Schwalbe valves!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on June 13, 2018, 03:12:51 pm
I've just taken delivery of a set of ERE Research Omnia 28mm tubeless tyres...

These tyres were test samples for review. They're very good, and I would happily recommend them, but... I've just found out the RRP.

 :o :o :o



Yeah, they really ought to be very good indeed for that much dosh. (Although to be fair, they are supplied with valves and sealant, which mitigates the price slightly.)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Jakob W on June 13, 2018, 04:01:00 pm
Crikey - €75 apiece! What's the UK RRP?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on June 13, 2018, 04:13:41 pm
£67
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on June 14, 2018, 06:43:43 am
i've read somewhere that gorilla tape absorbs moisture and gets heavier and heavier when used in tubeless rims, also the sealant dries out quicker because of that.

I wouldn’t use Gorilla tape on road wheels, as it stretches into the spoke holes too much at road tyre pressures. Seems fine on mtb wheels though.

I don’t like the Stan’s/Tesa tapes and use a 3M polypropylene tape that seems identical to the effetto mariposa tape. I bought 200m.

I’ve been using orange seal endurance sealant recently and it seems fine.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 14, 2018, 06:53:44 am
I'm not convinced that Orangeseal Endurance stays liquid any longer than Stans...which is it's USP, but I think it does seal holes a bit better.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: stevie63 on June 14, 2018, 01:35:34 pm
I'm not convinced that Orangeseal Endurance stays liquid any longer than Stans...which is it's USP, but I think it does seem holes a bit better.
You're right it doesn't. On a recent 300 my rear tyre suddenly went squishy. So I thought putting a blast of air in would help it re-seat but the air just kept escaping. When I took the tyre of to inspect the Orange Seal had formed into a ball about the size of a golf ball and it was that pushing on the sidewall of the tyre that was causing the air to escape.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jsabine on June 15, 2018, 01:03:57 am
I wouldn’t use Gorilla tape on road wheels, as it stretches into the spoke holes too much at road tyre pressures.

Again, no evidence of that on my wheels - I've barely seen any stretch at all.
</statistically insignificant>
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on June 17, 2018, 08:05:48 pm
Experience of Mavic UST road tubeless.

I recently built some new wheels with Mavic Open Pro UST road rims.

Verdict.

They sell a special UST rim tape that stretches over rim and it not stuck down like the rest of road tubeless rim tape.  I never got this to sit properly in the rim and it made trying to get the UST tyres on a bastard. It would not seal. I gave up with the rim tape after swearing a lot and skinning my thumbs trying to get tyres on.


Used a spare roll of Stans 21mm tape I had. Enough for both rims.  The Stans rim tape was easy to apply to the rims with an internal diameter of 19c. The UST tyres now went on easily just using hands. The tyres inflated easily first time without soapy water or sealant, with just the pump I carry on bike.  I repeated 7 times to check it was not a fluke. They seem to lock in place at about 20 psi. The recommended pressure on these width rims is only 54 psi for 28mm rubber, lower for 30mm etc.  They roll nice and smooth and are comfy at these pressures.  I added sealant later. The tyres are holding their original pressures after 48 hours.

So big thumbs up to UST road tyres and rims. Big thumbs down to their UST rim tape.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on June 18, 2018, 09:29:30 am
I thought the USP of UST was that they didn't need rim tape... Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on June 18, 2018, 10:02:42 am
i've tried mavic tubeless tyres with their ust tape/rims and haven't had any problem either mounting the tyres or keeping the air in. could it be that the rim needs a ust tape of different width?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on June 18, 2018, 10:32:35 am
i've tried mavic tubeless tyres with their ust tape/rims and haven't had any problem either mounting the tyres or keeping the air in. could it be that the rim needs a ust tape of different width?

No, it was the right ust rim tape for the width of rim.  Maybe I will try again in the future when it comes time for hew tape.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on June 18, 2018, 05:06:49 pm
I have a litre of it. £40  :o

I think one needs to think carefully about it. If it's for an everyday bike then I'm not sure it makes sense, as it is likely you'll need to top up every 4 months anyway
 unless you use really tough tyres.

It makes sense for really light tyres that get used for a few months only and are then put away.

(or really tough tyres that rarely puncture,)

AIUI all tubeless tyres are, by the nature of their construction and need to be non-porous, pretty tough. Certainly I’ve been riding Schwalbe One tubeless around the Chilterns for the last 6 months and haven’t had any noticeable punctures. Both my bikes are due a sealant top-up (I’ve been use Schwalbe Doc Blue) soon, and I’ll be switching both to Finish Line.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 18, 2018, 06:24:57 pm
They vary pretty hugely, Richard.
Schwalbe Ones are very flimsy compared to the likes of Hutchinson Sector. I've got through 2 sets of Ones in the same time as one set of Sectors, with similar mileage. I've got some Fusion 5 Galaktiks that are even thinner.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on June 25, 2018, 10:44:23 am
Sorry if this has been asked before, but are schwalbe "TL-easy" ok to be mounted on any tubeless compatible rim e.g. Stan's alpha 340?  i.e. just looking to confirm the change that "TL-easy" represents doesn't introduce a level of proprietariness without regard to rim choice in any way? What is the actual physical difference?

Also has anyone got an actual photo of a schwalbe tubeless tyre that's ready to be replaced?
Or, how the devil are you supposed to know when would be a good time to replace them.... Can of worms possibly I know, but thought I'd ask. Car tyres it's easy, tread starts off at 9mm, legal limit 1.6mm, replace around 2mm. How do you know with bike tyres?
I don't keep track of mileage cycled.
So say before a multi day audax or tour, replace or not?
current tyres have already done many thousands of km but look fine. May have many thousands more but may not last another thousand... Thoughts appreciated!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 25, 2018, 10:47:27 am
You replace them when your frequency of punctures increases to the point that you think it's about time to replace them
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chris n on June 28, 2018, 09:20:57 am
Fixed my first tubeless puncture the other day - a small graze on the shoulder of the tyre that was losing a few psi/day.  Too small to jam the anchovy in to start with, I enlarged the hole with the fork tool (losing pressure in the process, but no big deal - the bead stayed on the rim) so it was big enough and it sealed first time.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 28, 2018, 09:54:01 am
I favour patching on the inside. Not had much success with anchovies.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chris n on June 28, 2018, 09:56:04 am
Not ridden on it yet, so I'll see if it stays up.  What patches do you use? 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 28, 2018, 12:06:12 pm
Hutchinson tubeless ones.

Obviously it's more labour intensive than anchovies, but I'm not keen on making a small hole bigger in order to effect a repair.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on June 28, 2018, 02:16:18 pm
They vary pretty hugely, Richard.
Schwalbe Ones are very flimsy compared to the likes of Hutchinson Sector. I've got through 2 sets of Ones in the same time as one set of Sectors, with similar mileage. I've got some Fusion 5 Galaktiks that are even thinner.

And I’ve just read a review of the Victoria Speed g+ Tubeless and they’re only recommended for TT’s they’re so fragile, so I stand corrected  :).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on June 28, 2018, 07:51:33 pm
Hutchinson tubeless ones.

Obviously it's more labour intensive than anchovies, but I'm not keen on making a small hole bigger in order to effect a repair.

Agree with this. My experience with anchovies is that they stick like buggery to the packaging, you have to enlarge the hole, then when they fail you are left with a hole that will not seal.

The ust tubeless you can reseat with an ordinary pump on your bike. So no worries about removing the bead, patching then reseating at side of the road.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on June 29, 2018, 12:29:24 am
I suppose it depends on the nature of the puncture but I found an anchovy on a Schwalbe S-One held for ~2500 miles until I decided to put a tube in the tyre. The decision to "tube" was down to a faulty valve when I was on a group tour. I figured that a hotel bathroom with copious quantities of soap, water and paper was as good a place as any to do it. I filled the waste bin.....
The puncture in question was right in the centre of the tyre's tread. The sealant (Doc Blue) couldn't cope with it.
I was very impressed with the ease of puncture fixing using the anchovy.

In due course I'm going to try tubeless again with my current 32mm Gravelking SKs, tyres that I'm very pleased with.



Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chris n on June 29, 2018, 11:52:11 am
Hutchinson tubeless ones.

Obviously it's more labour intensive than anchovies, but I'm not keen on making a small hole bigger in order to effect a repair.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 29, 2018, 04:23:01 pm
Also, I might be being thick, but when I threaded an anchovy through the eye of the needle and poked it into the tyre it just came straight back out, still threaded when I pulled the tool out. I'm baffled as to how they are supposed to release themselves and remain in the tyre.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on June 30, 2018, 07:08:52 pm
It's a while ago, but I think I twisted the needle before I pulled it out.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 30, 2018, 07:27:22 pm
How would that help?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on June 30, 2018, 07:36:38 pm
The tool with my tubeless repair kit doesn't have an eye but is double pronged, holding the anchovy between them.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on June 30, 2018, 09:02:02 pm
Best I get the tin scissors out then.

Funnily enough I had a total spunky failure today. Rode the cx for the first time in months and put 2oz of Stans in. It ejaculated  the whole lot in the space of 5 minutes the moment I hit a trail. Glad I had a mudguard. No big deal. Just put a tube in. Got to try and find the hole so I can patch it.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on June 30, 2018, 09:35:52 pm
How would that help?

Speculating but I think the twist doubled up the anchovy so it was twice the size of the hole.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on August 07, 2018, 12:27:33 pm
On my ride on Sunday, I hit a stone that sliced a gash in the sidewall of my tubeless tyre and it went flat pretty quickly. I tried pumping some air in and it seemed to be sealing but as soon as I put some weight on the wheel, the air pressure caused the hole to re-open. So I just stuck a tube in for the rest of the ride - luckily I only had 10km left anyway.

Two questions...

First, should you drain out any remaining sealant in the tyre before fitting a tube in these circumstances?

Second, I think the tyre isn't damaged too badly so I will attempt to repair it. Is there anything special I need to know about patching tubeless tyres? I'm guessing it's much the same process as patching an inner tube but... any caveats?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on August 07, 2018, 02:00:00 pm
I had something similar on a ride home a few weeks ago, the hole was on the edge of the bead plus I had no sealant left after it had sealed but wouldn't hold pressure when I tried to ride it due to its location.
So didn't have the worry of do I dispose of the fluid.

Pretty much all of my incidents to date have been no fluid left jobs so when I did finally succumb to fitting a tube there was very little left in the tyre.

I have just patched it in exactly the same way you would an inner tube.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on August 09, 2018, 03:52:37 pm
@Citoyen / Jiberjaber - I assume the tubeless valve was held into the rim with a retaining ring? If so, was it just finger tight, so as to allow you easily to remove it to fit a tube?  I carry a tube but haven't yet had to use it in anger, but am a bit concerned I have the valve secured too tightly to allow easy removal  :-\
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on August 09, 2018, 04:02:22 pm
@Citoyen / Jiberjaber - I assume the tubeless valve was held into the rim with a retaining ring? If so, was it just finger tight, so as to allow you easily to remove it to fit a tube?  I carry a tube but haven't yet had to use it in anger, but am a bit concerned I have the valve secured too tightly to allow easy removal  :-\

Sort of, once inflated I usually nip it up again as it will settle eventually when fitted. I think I have used a pair of pliers before but still been able to remove with fingers
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on August 09, 2018, 05:14:15 pm
@Citoyen / Jiberjaber - I assume the tubeless valve was held into the rim with a retaining ring? If so, was it just finger tight, so as to allow you easily to remove it to fit a tube?  I carry a tube but haven't yet had to use it in anger, but am a bit concerned I have the valve secured too tightly to allow easy removal  :-\

Yeah, 'finger tight' is correct. I certainly didn't use pliers or anything like that to tighten it when fitting.

It wasn't difficult to remove but did take a bit of force as the sealant had kind of glued it in place.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on August 09, 2018, 07:56:15 pm
Ta, I’ve probably overtightened mine. I have a small pair of pliers in my toolkit, but would rather not. I’ll back off the collars next time. Cheers.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on August 29, 2018, 02:32:20 pm
Experience of Mavic UST road tubeless.

I recently built some new wheels with Mavic Open Pro UST road rims.

Verdict.

They sell a special UST rim tape that stretches over rim and it not stuck down like the rest of road tubeless rim tape.  I never got this to sit properly in the rim and it made trying to get the UST tyres on a bastard. It would not seal. I gave up with the rim tape after swearing a lot and skinning my thumbs trying to get tyres on.


Used a spare roll of Stans 21mm tape I had. Enough for both rims.  The Stans rim tape was easy to apply to the rims with an internal diameter of 19c. The UST tyres now went on easily just using hands. The tyres inflated easily first time without soapy water or sealant, with just the pump I carry on bike.  I repeated 7 times to check it was not a fluke. They seem to lock in place at about 20 psi. The recommended pressure on these width rims is only 54 psi for 28mm rubber, lower for 30mm etc.  They roll nice and smooth and are comfy at these pressures.  I added sealant later. The tyres are holding their original pressures after 48 hours.

So big thumbs up to UST road tyres and rims. Big thumbs down to their UST rim tape.

hi Phil, curious about this as I am having some sealing issues with those same rims.
Mine has got some rim 'tape' installed which is like rubber but it seems to overlap near the valve rather than be a single continuous strip - is that what yours was like?

And when you put the stans tape on did you have a rim 'strip' underneath the tape, or don't you need that? The stans website seems to allude that you do  (https://www.notubes.com/stan-s-rim-tape-10yd-x-21mm)but not sure whether it's rim-dependent.
And did you end up using mavic valves or stans valves?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on August 30, 2018, 01:39:27 pm
Experience of Mavic UST road tubeless.

I recently built some new wheels with Mavic Open Pro UST road rims.

Verdict.

They sell a special UST rim tape that stretches over rim and it not stuck down like the rest of road tubeless rim tape.  I never got this to sit properly in the rim and it made trying to get the UST tyres on a bastard. It would not seal. I gave up with the rim tape after swearing a lot and skinning my thumbs trying to get tyres on.


Used a spare roll of Stans 21mm tape I had. Enough for both rims.  The Stans rim tape was easy to apply to the rims with an internal diameter of 19c. The UST tyres now went on easily just using hands. The tyres inflated easily first time without soapy water or sealant, with just the pump I carry on bike.  I repeated 7 times to check it was not a fluke. They seem to lock in place at about 20 psi. The recommended pressure on these width rims is only 54 psi for 28mm rubber, lower for 30mm etc.  They roll nice and smooth and are comfy at these pressures.  I added sealant later. The tyres are holding their original pressures after 48 hours.

So big thumbs up to UST road tyres and rims. Big thumbs down to their UST rim tape.

hi Phil, curious about this as I am having some sealing issues with those same rims.
Mine has got some rim 'tape' installed which is like rubber but it seems to overlap near the valve rather than be a single continuous strip - is that what yours was like?

And when you put the stans tape on did you have a rim 'strip' underneath the tape, or don't you need that? The stans website seems to allude that you do  (https://www.notubes.com/stan-s-rim-tape-10yd-x-21mm)but not sure whether it's rim-dependent.
And did you end up using mavic valves or stans valves?

As you can see from the rim profile shape on this page https://www.prowheelbuilder.com/mavic-open-pro-ust-msw-700c-black-rim.html
Mavic Open Pro UST have a "tubeless" shape with a shelf next to the rim.  So I'd be happy using them without a rim strip

My old (but recently updated) blog page on tubeless stuff covers this shape thing https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/whats-so-great-about-tubeless-tyres/


Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on August 30, 2018, 01:46:48 pm
Thanks.
Next Q, I have heard contradictory opinions on whether a tubeless tyre "should" be able to hold air even without any sealant. Anyone care to cast a deciding vote?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on August 30, 2018, 05:14:34 pm
Thanks.
Next Q, I have heard contradictory opinions on whether a tubeless tyre "should" be able to hold air even without any sealant. Anyone care to cast a deciding vote?

It just depends.  If the wheel is true, the tape good, the tyre correctly moulded then yes.  But meanwhile in the real world all stuff has little imperfections.  The sealant can deal with those tiny difficulties.  Usually (when i've tried it) one of the tyres inflates to a good pressure without sealant and the other one doesn't.  More careful people than myself may have a higher success rate than 50%
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on August 30, 2018, 05:53:42 pm
I see no point whatsoever in using tubeless tyres without sealant.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on August 30, 2018, 10:10:56 pm
I have had tyres hold air once the sealant has been used up. But not fresh on with no liquid.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on August 30, 2018, 10:16:01 pm
Experience of Mavic UST road tubeless.

I recently built some new wheels with Mavic Open Pro UST road rims.

Verdict.

They sell a special UST rim tape that stretches over rim and it not stuck down like the rest of road tubeless rim tape.  I never got this to sit properly in the rim and it made trying to get the UST tyres on a bastard. It would not seal. I gave up with the rim tape after swearing a lot and skinning my thumbs trying to get tyres on.


Used a spare roll of Stans 21mm tape I had. Enough for both rims.  The Stans rim tape was easy to apply to the rims with an internal diameter of 19c. The UST tyres now went on easily just using hands. The tyres inflated easily first time without soapy water or sealant, with just the pump I carry on bike.  I repeated 7 times to check it was not a fluke. They seem to lock in place at about 20 psi. The recommended pressure on these width rims is only 54 psi for 28mm rubber, lower for 30mm etc.  They roll nice and smooth and are comfy at these pressures.  I added sealant later. The tyres are holding their original pressures after 48 hours.

So big thumbs up to UST road tyres and rims. Big thumbs down to their UST rim tape.

hi Phil, curious about this as I am having some sealing issues with those same rims.
Mine has got some rim 'tape' installed which is like rubber but it seems to overlap near the valve rather than be a single continuous strip - is that what yours was like?

And when you put the stans tape on did you have a rim 'strip' underneath the tape, or don't you need that? The stans website seems to allude that you do  (https://www.notubes.com/stan-s-rim-tape-10yd-x-21mm)but not sure whether it's rim-dependent.
And did you end up using mavic valves or stans valves?

Single continuous rubber strip. But pretty sure I had the wrong version now. As for the stans, nothing under neath it, I applied it direct to the rim surface. I am using the Mavic valves.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on August 31, 2018, 08:44:08 am
I see no point whatsoever in using tubeless tyres without sealant.

Not to ride, no, but the point of it is to test whether the system as a whole is put together well enough.

Thanks.
Next Q, I have heard contradictory opinions on whether a tubeless tyre "should" be able to hold air even without any sealant. Anyone care to cast a deciding vote?


It just depends.  If the wheel is true, the tape good, the tyre correctly moulded then yes.  But meanwhile in the real world all stuff has little imperfections.  The sealant can deal with those tiny difficulties.  Usually (when i've tried it) one of the tyres inflates to a good pressure without sealant and the other one doesn't.  More careful people than myself may have a higher success rate than 50%

Yes, that seems to make sense. When you say "the other one doesn't [inflate to a good pressure without sealant]" - do you mean it inflates but then goes down over minutes/hours, or doesn't inflate at all even with bead seated ie air gushes straight out again? If the latter, does that then go on to be successful with sealant - or does the fact it doesn't inflate at all mean something is fundamentally wrong?

In other words, is there a minimum standard of air retention without sealant that I should be looking for before I decide the build quality of the system as a whole is good enough to put into service, and thus before I bother adding sealant?

Got these mavic rims currently with stans tape applied to them - currently don't hold air without sealant for more than a couple of seconds - just gushes straight out again. As far as I can tell I've applied the tape correctly - pulled taut, pushed into the well, no air bubbles, twice round with 6" overlap.
I was kind of expecting/hoping that they might hold air for a few hours without sealant but go soft overnight but not straight down like they are doing.
Going to run tubes on this bike for now till I decide how to proceed - not least because I think that if it works, it might be the case that the stability of the system starts off poor but improves as the sealant 'beds in' and it might take a few rides for it to find its way into all the nooks and crannies.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on August 31, 2018, 01:37:14 pm
Any tubeless setup, with the tyre seated, will hold air, although they may deflate in a few minutes, and sometimes you'll hear it. And the reason is generally that the tyre isn't actually fully seated (assuming the rim tape is tight)! They can take a lot of pressure to fully seat, and I usually use a small amount of liquid detergent on the beads, and CO2 inflators, to pop them on first time around. Then they'll hold for some time - it varies, can be 30 mins, can be a couple of hours.  Even WITH sealant a good setup can deflate over the first night - or indeed a couple of nights.  Latex sealant is better IME at initially sealing than the CO2 friendly Finish Line stuff. The latter has particles in suspension, and IME the base fluid can pass without driving the particles out to seal, whereas latex gums stuff up.

Your last comment is very true. The shaking and rattling a tyre gets on the road is more effective than anything you can do in the shed at spreading the sealant about.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on August 31, 2018, 02:57:11 pm
had two punctures on the club run last week, front and rear. both were small cuts of 1-2mm and sealed while riding.

pros:
*didn't have to stop to sort out the punctures
*easy rolling, lovely ride feel

cons:
*the guy behind me wasn't happy about the sealant squirting from the rear tyre
*most of the sealant was sprayed out from the rear tyre, covering the bike (and my back) with sticky mess - topped up with 30ml at home
*front of the bike and down tube were also covered with sticky mess from the front tyre
*tyres wouldn't hold the pressure (~90psi) so they had to be patched from the inside, at home - this took almost an hour(!)
*bike had to be cleaned which also took forever (any tips for removing dried out sealant?)

i'll keep using the tubeless as overall the benefits slightly outweigh the drawbacks, i only hope that the technology keeps improving to the point where having road tubeless becomes a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on August 31, 2018, 04:23:09 pm

In other words, is there a minimum standard of air retention without sealant that I should be looking for before I decide the build quality of the system as a whole is good enough to put into service, and thus before I bother adding sealant?

Got these mavic rims currently with stans tape applied to them - currently don't hold air without sealant for more than a couple of seconds - just gushes straight out again. As far as I can tell I've applied the tape correctly - pulled taut, pushed into the well, no air bubbles, twice round with 6" overlap.
I was kind of expecting/hoping that they might hold air for a few hours without sealant but go soft overnight but not straight down like they are doing.
Going to run tubes on this bike for now till I decide how to proceed - not least because I think that if it works, it might be the case that the stability of the system starts off poor but improves as the sealant 'beds in' and it might take a few rides for it to find its way into all the nooks and crannies.

Maybe I am not being clear enough but the sealant is part of the "system" and I've had a couple of tyres that would not inflate at all (as you describe) without sealant.

As rafletcher points out, the seating sometimes only occurs at high pressure when the tyre "pops" into place.  That's why they use soapy water, to help this happen.  Sometimes there is a chicken and egg situation: the tyre won't seat until it is at high pressure.  But it can't get to high pressure because it isn't sealed.  And it isn't sealed as it isn't seated.  The sealant can break this vicious cycle by semi-sealing an unseated tyre and letting it get to a pressure where it "pops" into a real seating
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on September 01, 2018, 01:26:36 pm
I have to say I’m somewhat disappointed with the initial performance of the Finish Line sealant. The new Sector 28 rear tyre I fitted (to a rim previously used with latex sealant and a Schwalbe 1) was dead flat this morning, after a week of being left. The front was down to 3 bar from 7 over the same period. I think it’s possibly because the FL sealant has fibres in suspension, and some flow is required to push them into place to seal. A slow leak at the rim may not be fast enough to do that unless the bike gets ridden more, which hasn’t been the case due to work etc recently.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 01, 2018, 04:32:10 pm
Yeah it's bollocks. Expensive bollocks too.

Back to Orangeseal endurance.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on September 01, 2018, 04:39:23 pm
Anyone given PX's Magic Milk a crack yet?

https://www.planetx.co.uk/s?q=magic+milk

Looks economical
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on September 03, 2018, 08:26:56 pm
I have been using the Finish Line ever since I got it.  Initially i though the tyres deflated slightly faster than with latex but no difference now.  Advantage for me isis i puncture I can use the CO2
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on September 04, 2018, 12:46:27 pm
Well after a second ride at the weekend (I've mostly been using the "fair weather" bike), the sealing on the rear has definitely improved over what it was, so I'll persevere with it, due to the CO2 friendliness.

ETA: This Friday the pressure drops were 1 bar on the front and 1.5 On the rear. Much better.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 25, 2018, 02:36:06 pm
idiots guide to road tubeless

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/bike-kit/set-up/article/izn20150421-Intermediate-Tubeless-Tyre-Set-up-Tips-0?utm_campaign=621787_Membership%20Member%20News%2020%2F09%2F2018&utm_medium=email&utm_source=British%20Cycling%20V2&dm_i=480K,DBRV,1O77V2,1HMDL,1

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 25, 2018, 05:17:25 pm
I'm now 3 years into using tubeless, across 3 bikes, with 3 different wheelers and brands of tyre.

What I've learned is not to rush. Don't omit any steps, such as mounting the tyre and inflating it 'dry to see if works, before then deflating and introducing sealant via the valve (minus core)

What is also clear is that once sealed you have to ride the bike, everyday, for a few days before you find the tyre stops deflating.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on September 26, 2018, 12:09:28 pm
I suffered a catastrophic puncture on a ride a month or so ago - hit a sharp stone that gashed the sidewall and the hole was too big for the sealant to do its job.

I stuck a tube in for the rest of the ride and eventually got around to repairing the tyre, by patching it on the inside (using a patch from a regular puncture repair kit), the day before setting off for the Fenland Friends 600.

Schoolboy error. The patch apparently wasn't strong enough to contain the pressure and bulged out through the hole, forcing me to reduce the pressure in the tyre. But that made the ride sluggish, so I was just 25km into the 600 when I stopped to put some more air in... and it was only another few km before I felt the tyre going soft...

I put a tube in, which was fine for the rest of the ride, but now I'm wondering what to do next.

Is it likely that the patch I used just wasn't up to the job and I'd get better results by using a different type of patch? If so, any recommendations?

Or is the problem more likely to be that I didn't allow enough time for the patch to cure before riding the bike?

Or something else?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on September 26, 2018, 12:15:53 pm
Hutchinson "Rep'air" kits contain strong(er) patches for internal patching of tubeless tyres I believe. MTB kit has larger patches.

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Hutchinson-Rep-Air-Tubeless-Repair-Kit_113515.htm?sku=424734&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzqL4jMXY3QIVwbTtCh38ag4vEAQYAiABEgL_VvD_BwE#
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 26, 2018, 12:17:03 pm
These are what I use.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on September 26, 2018, 12:20:10 pm
Thanks, will give those a try.

It would be a shame to have to bin these tyres (ERE Omnia) because I really like them. The sidewall seems very thin and flexible compared to some tubeless tyres, which is perhaps both their greatest strength and their greatest weakness...

And I've had several instances of punctures that did successfully seal themselves while riding, so I'm totally sold on the tubeless concept. The best one happened while I was in the middle of discussing tubeless tyres with a fellow rider who was debating whether or not to try them for himself (his new bike already had tubeless-ready wheels). A brief spurt of white gunk, which stopped within seconds, and after he picked up his jaw from the ground, he said, 'Right, that's decided it, I'm going tubeless!'
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 26, 2018, 12:23:59 pm
About a year ago I bought a pair of Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galaktik tyres with a view to putting them on some non-TL carbon wheels. I got them for about £16 each. They are the lightest of the Fusion 5 range, no puncture protection. I suspected maybe they were cheap because unpopular because meh.

Got round to fitting them At the weekend. My god they are good. I wish I'd bought a shed full at that price
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on September 26, 2018, 12:38:59 pm
Just looked up the Galactiks - RRP is £59.99, so it sounds like you got an excellent deal there.

My ERE tyres are about the same price, iirc. I do like them a lot but I'm very glad I didn't have to pay for them. Will have to see if I can blag another set once they're worn out...

I've also got a set of Maxxis Padrone, which are fine but they come up a bit narrow for my liking.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 26, 2018, 12:40:28 pm
Rumour has it, Continental are finally going road TL...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on September 26, 2018, 01:11:26 pm
conti have been making tubeless (tlr) for a while, so they've got the expertise. hopefully their road tubeless will be as good as (or better than) their tubed tyres.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on September 26, 2018, 02:23:55 pm
Just looked up the Galactiks - RRP is £59.99, so it sounds like you got an excellent deal there.


RRP £59.99.  Wiggle £63.27  >:(
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 26, 2018, 02:37:24 pm
I think you can still get them for around £25
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on September 26, 2018, 02:48:01 pm
It seems the original Galaktik is discontinued, the new Galaktic has the new "11storm" compound.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 26, 2018, 03:00:04 pm
It's a light tyre....So dont all rush out and buy them as they may not suit you.

I, however, find they ride slightly better than the Schwalbe One wired I had on before.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 26, 2018, 04:12:13 pm
one fairly reliable but cheap place to get hutchinson tyres is https://www.acycles.co.uk/road/tyres/tyres.html

the galatik is on there for £29.99 in 23mm only
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on September 27, 2018, 09:23:46 pm
Got a rear puncture last night. Sorted it out this morning and found all my sealant had dried out. Gurss the heatwave did that prematurely. Fresh sealant now in.

I have come to the end of my big bottle of Stans. What sealant are folks using these days?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on September 27, 2018, 10:38:00 pm
I've got some Muc-Off sealant that I used when I attempted to repair the tyre prior to the 600. It has some additive that is detectable with UV light, apparently, to make it easier to spot a leak. No idea how good it is - as noted earlier, I had to fit a tube after about 30km.

What I can tell you is that putting a tube in a tyre with a load of fresh sealant inside it is a messy job.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on September 27, 2018, 10:56:10 pm
Café latex appears to still be the favoured one afaik
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on September 28, 2018, 12:34:21 am
Or Orange Seal Endurance, although I’ve just ordered a couple of bottles of the Oko Magic Milk from Planet X on the basis of price.

I’ve found the Orange Seal fine until it eventually dries out and will eventually report on the Magic Milk.

Also used cafe latex in the past with no issues.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 28, 2018, 05:49:44 am
Stans is fine. Orange Seal Endurance is good. Currently using Finish Line.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: GrahamG on September 28, 2018, 08:31:31 am
I've got a big bottle of stans going for the price of postage if anyone wants it - prefer the orange seal endurance as it seems to seal quicker at higher pressures.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on September 28, 2018, 08:59:17 am
I've moved to the Finish Line as it's advertised as CO2 friendly and it doesn't dry out so no regular messy replacement Has anyone experienced problems using the latex sealants and CO2?  I've always used CO2 to do the initial inflation of my tubeless tyres (those I couldn't get to pop with the track pump anyway) and I never noticed an issue with the Stans sealant, it always stayed liquid for several months.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on September 28, 2018, 09:08:20 am
I've got a big bottle of stans going for the price of postage if anyone wants it - prefer the orange seal endurance as it seems to seal quicker at higher pressures.

May I have it please?
Meet up and buy you a pint or two?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on September 28, 2018, 10:05:05 am
i've been using conti revo (no punctures before it dried out) and mavic (three cuts of 1-2mm). mavic sealant sealed the cuts, but not instantly - the pressure had gone down from 90->60psi and the bike was covered in gunky mess. i've patched the cuts from the inside as the first one was not holding the full pressure and didn't want to take chances with the subsequent ones. it's a bit of love/hate relationship i'm having with the tubeless on a road bike.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on September 28, 2018, 03:19:21 pm
Has anyone experienced problems using the latex sealants and CO2?

Never used CO2 tbh. Track pump to inflate and ride. When I let it dry out I needed a tube of course!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on September 28, 2018, 04:10:12 pm
I've got a big bottle of stans going for the price of postage if anyone wants it - prefer the orange seal endurance as it seems to seal quicker at higher pressures.

May I have it please?
Meet up and buy you a pint or two?

Damn!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on September 28, 2018, 04:12:57 pm
I've got a big bottle of stans going for the price of postage if anyone wants it - prefer the orange seal endurance as it seems to seal quicker at higher pressures.

May I have it please?
Meet up and buy you a pint or two?

Damn!

Make an offer of three Newcastle Browns and a whisky chaser! You might still edge it!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on October 02, 2018, 09:52:48 am
Forgive me for being thick here because this has probably been asked before possibly even by me but I have either forgotten or didn't understand the answer. But:
In simple terms, why do more people not use tubeless sealant but in tubes? One of the benefits of using tubeless is touted as better puncture protection. But the bit I don't get is why this is a benefit of tubeless, rather than a benefit of 'having sealant'.
Is there some physical reason why sealant won't seal a tube as well as it will a tyre?

When I say 'sealant' I'm talking about actual tubeless tyre liquid sealant, not that green slime stuff.

Hypothetically if say I wanted the reliable fitting experience of tubes without it losing air until it's "bedded in", but also wanted the puncture protection of 'tubeless' (or, of 'sealant'), can I have the best of both worlds here?

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on October 02, 2018, 10:04:29 am
Forgive me for being thick here because this has probably been asked before possibly even by me but I have either forgotten or didn't understand the answer. But:
In simple terms, why do more people not use tubeless sealant but in tubes? One of the benefits of using tubeless is touted as better puncture protection. But the bit I don't get is why this is a benefit of tubeless, rather than a benefit of 'having sealant'.
Is there some physical reason why sealant won't seal a tube as well as it will a tyre?

When I say 'sealant' I'm talking about actual tubeless tyre liquid sealant, not that green slime stuff.

Hypothetically if say I wanted the reliable fitting experience of tubes without it losing air until it's "bedded in", but also wanted the puncture protection of 'tubeless' (or, of 'sealant'), can I have the best of both worlds here?


By a strange coincidence, I'm about to give that a go. However, concerns are that sealant is less effective in tubes as they are more flexible than tyres and so move as air escapes hindering the sealing process and also that they remain susceptible to pinch flats. In the past I've used cafe latex in a latex tube that disintegrated spectacularly as I was riding along lifting the rear tyre off the rim - not sure if that was a consequence of the sealant rotting the tube, but it was very loud and very unsettling at the time. This time I'm going to try using one of the Oko Magic Milk sealants in a butyl tube, really to use some open tubular tyres (Challenge Paris Roubaix) I've got. Hopefully I can manage enough miles in the next few weeks to make a fair assessment.

In other news, I mounted a set of Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR on a pair of wheels I built at the weekend last night. Not sure they are really dark season tyres though... These will probably lead to other sales of wheels if anyone has a need!

Mike
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on October 02, 2018, 10:06:19 am
Forgive me for being thick here because this has probably been asked before possibly even by me but I have either forgotten or didn't understand the answer. But:
In simple terms, why do more people not use tubeless sealant but in tubes? One of the benefits of using tubeless is touted as better puncture protection. But the bit I don't get is why this is a benefit of tubeless, rather than a benefit of 'having sealant'.
Is there some physical reason why sealant won't seal a tube as well as it will a tyre?

When I say 'sealant' I'm talking about actual tubeless tyre liquid sealant, not that green slime stuff.

Hypothetically if say I wanted the reliable fitting experience of tubes without it losing air until it's "bedded in", but also wanted the puncture protection of 'tubeless' (or, of 'sealant'), can I have the best of both worlds here?

They perhaps would in some circumstances (thorn puncture for example) but not in others (pinch /snakebite puncture) plus added weight (if that's a concern).  Whilst you will be able to refill at some time - it might be harder to check it is still liquid / how much is available in there plus eventually you will need to bin the tube if its clogged up with a fair amount of sealant....

I have ridden with some who have used sealant in their tubes and have since made the jump to full tubeless (though required new rims to support that jump).

Why not give it a try to see if the tube & sealant works for you?  Tubes are probably cheaper than tubeless tyres so you could experiment to see if it works for you perhaps...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on October 02, 2018, 11:09:52 am
sealant inside inner tubes doesn't work that well as the inner tube constantly moves against the tyre; it does keep the pressure at ~30psi (ime) so enough to get back home. plus, when the sealant dries out there's no way to remove it and you end up with unbalanced wheel (or need to replace the inner tube every few months).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: andrew_s on October 02, 2018, 01:19:52 pm
In simple terms, why do more people not use tubeless sealant but in tubes? One of the benefits of using tubeless is touted as better puncture protection. But the bit I don't get is why this is a benefit of tubeless, rather than a benefit of 'having sealant'.
Is there some physical reason why sealant won't seal a tube as well as it will a tyre?
Sealant generally doesn't work so well in tubes because the holes are typically bigger.

Usually, an inflated tube stretches to the size of the tyre.
Then when the tube is punctured, the hole is effectively also stretched by the same amount as the tube. The air leaks out with the sealant having difficulty sealing the hole until enough air has leaked out that the hole shrinks enough to seal. Then, when you pump the soft tyre up again, it's quite likely that you'll open up the hole and get extra leakage.

The answer is to use a mildly oversized tube, so that it's not stretched when the tyre is fully inflated - eg a 700x32-47 tube in a 700x28 tyre.
If you want pre-filled Slime tubes, you may have to pick the tyre to suit the available tubes.

Oversize tubes work fairly well on thorns, even without sealant, with the edge of the hole being a tight enough fit on the thorn to make a fairly reasonable seal.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ivan on October 02, 2018, 02:39:52 pm
I've moved to the Finish Line as it's advertised as CO2 friendly and it doesn't dry out so no regular messy replacement Has anyone experienced problems using the latex sealants and CO2?  I've always used CO2 to do the initial inflation of my tubeless tyres (those I couldn't get to pop with the track pump anyway) and I never noticed an issue with the Stans sealant, it always stayed liquid for several months.

I use CO2 to fit tricky tyres that won't seal otherwise, but I then deflate them and inject Stans through the valve and inflate normally so there should only be atmospheric concentrations of CO2 in there.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 02, 2018, 03:40:38 pm
That's exactly as I did in the past, with no issues. But sometimes I had a tyre that, despite "seating" with CO2, when deflated for sealant injection, would pop off the rim and require CO2 again to reinflate, hence a tyre with latex sealant and majority CO2. It never seemed to be a problem though, and when I took those tyres off there was still plenty of liquid sealant in there.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on October 02, 2018, 03:42:53 pm
I have a pump that can be 'charged' - pump it up to about 200psi then release the air in one blast.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, tyres fitted this way seal very easily and don't pop off when deflated.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 02, 2018, 03:58:19 pm
The tyres in question were admittedly fitted without the aid of any lubricant around the bead, so may not have seated terribly well the first time. Added to which I'm not sure I'd want to put 200psi into my tyres, with a marked max of 7barg, or around 105psi. I'm aware of safety factors etc etc but even so I'd not want to go much beyond 130psi. Still I see there are now several pumps that can do the "air blast" thing so may give in to temptation for yet another tool  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on October 02, 2018, 04:07:09 pm
There is a mavic video on youtube where an engineer deliberately explodes a tyre in a special metal 'cupboard' and monitors what PSI it gets to before it explodes, I think it got to about 170-odd psi.

However 200psi in the compressor would only translate to 200psi in the tyre if the volume was the same. If it was half the volume of the tyre for instance it would inflate it to 100 psi.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on October 02, 2018, 04:12:16 pm
I'm not sure I'd want to put 200psi into my tyres, with a marked max of 7barg, or around 105psi.

As Ben T correctly says, 200psi in the pump barrel does not translate to 200psi in the tyre when you release the air. IIRC, with my 28mm tyres, it shows around 70psi on the gauge after you open the switch on the pump head.

I used lubricant the first time I fitted the tyres, but didn't use lubricant when I had to refit the rear tyre recently and it didn't seem to make any difference.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 02, 2018, 04:32:10 pm
Doh - of course the pressure is less in the (greater volume) of the tyre  :hand: ::-). 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on October 02, 2018, 04:49:35 pm
I find soapy water is excellent when first fitting the tyre, after that the sealant seems to form a skirt on the tyre rim bit which means that in all but the odd occasion I can re-seat the tyre with a hand pump. (odd occasion is usually when the tyre has been removed from rim and refitted.)

I also use an air-shot type device to initially seat (at about 140psi, leaves about 40-50 in the 30/35c tyre)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on October 02, 2018, 06:23:12 pm
Doh - of course the pressure is less in the (greater volume) of the tyre  :hand: ::-).

Plus some of the air remains in the pump barrel and hose.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chris n on October 02, 2018, 08:40:44 pm
Boyle's Law, innit.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on October 02, 2018, 08:48:17 pm
Boyle's Law, innit.

Starring Michael Kitchen?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Andrew Br on October 02, 2018, 11:06:48 pm
Boyle's Law, innit.

Beat me to it chris.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Bobby on October 08, 2018, 04:30:00 pm
Talk to me about UST... (for a friend I'm happy with my Schwalbe one pros - even if I struggle to get them to seat).

A mate has been evangelizing about UST tubeless tyres - he got them to fit without levers, and seated them with a hand pump! (Mavic YKSION PRO UST)

However after ~200km they have started to de-laminate.. literally the tread is bubbling up and coming off!  I'll try to post a photo...


He needs 25mm, and would like something that fits nice and simply.  Any other experience of these tyres or recommendations to try next?

Cheers.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 08, 2018, 08:00:55 pm
Seating a 25 is usually pretty easy with a floor pump, much more so than 28’s. He could try Hutchinson Fusion 5’s, they come in several flavours.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 08, 2018, 08:22:15 pm
Fusion 5 have been the hardest to set up of all the tyres I have used, but this is in part because I'm using them on narrow non-TL rims. They needed pre-stretching on the wheel with a tube, then pretty easy albeit quite tight in the rim (akin to Vitt Corsa on Kysrium rims ie. bloody tight)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 08, 2018, 09:37:56 pm
I fitted my Fusion 5 All Seasons (28’s)  to Velocity Ailerons (tubeless rims) with my hands. I’m pre-stretching with a tube but they seated to the beads straight away.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 08, 2018, 10:35:18 pm
How are you finding them?

I'm finding mine ( 25mm Galaktik) to be as joyous to ride as decent tubulars. They feel much more surefooted than the One non-tubeless they replaced. I really wasn't expecting them to be so good. I bought one set of Galaktiks and one set of All Seasons ages ago when I found a cheap source. I wish I'd bought more.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on October 09, 2018, 11:11:29 am
I've not ridden the Fusions yet.  I have ridden the Sector 28's that replaced tubeless Ones on my general use bike. The Sectors have a higher minimum pressure of 6 bar (which I've adhered to so far - the Fusions are 5bar)) so the ride is a bit firmer than I had it on the Ones, which I ran nearer to 5.  Now the sealing has settled down (unlike the latex sealant, the Finish Line took a while to fully seal and needed riding to do so), I'll try dropping the pressures to those I used before, around 5 front, 5.5 rear.  Grip seems good.

I'd like the Galaktics, as they're more supple but will wait until I find a reasonable price and save them for the summer bike and fit 25's to that
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 10, 2018, 07:21:17 am
I found them for £17, and punted on a pair thinking they might be a failed product. I had zero expectations.

The ride quality is tangibly better than tubed Ones, and I find I can wang them through corners much faster and with much more derring-do. Puts a big grin on the face.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fd3 on October 23, 2018, 06:54:28 pm
On the flame war thread about going tubless (or not) there was mention of some replaceable valves being better than others.  Which ones to use and which to avoid?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on October 23, 2018, 06:56:49 pm
(click to show/hide)

Some people really like the Orangeseal ones. I have found the DT Swiss valves to be good.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on October 23, 2018, 07:12:43 pm
Avoid Milkit - great idea, poorly executed and quite expensive.  The long pokey bit which pushes through the rubber valve bit falls off over time ( < 1 year!!) making the thing a bit redundant and harder to put air in.
 
Some sealant is designed to be pumped through the valve without removal - Cafelatex is one.

My other reference is Schwalbe which sometimes comes with clear smoked valve caps - these obviously make you go faster!
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on October 23, 2018, 07:31:43 pm
Avoid Milkit - great idea, poorly executed and quite expensive.  The long pokey bit which pushes through the rubber valve bit falls off over time ( < 1 year!!) making the thing a bit redundant and harder to put air in.

I bought the Millkit on kickstarter or some other early bird version.  I really like it and have not run into problems with the plastic bit falling off although my experience may be limited as it has generally just worked.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on October 23, 2018, 07:50:42 pm
It was ace till then... 3 out of 4 valves effected
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on October 24, 2018, 08:18:58 am
One of my tubeless valves got bent (in the mechanism that is the actual valve) and had to be replaced but I assumed that was due to my clumsy fumblings

I've just used random brands of tubeless valves, I don't remember what types I've used


Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Dave_C on October 24, 2018, 10:45:40 am
I got a Hawthorn spike in my front tyre this morning. Maybe I should rear this thread and try the slimy gloop which seals the holes?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 02, 2018, 08:04:27 am
To add a little bit more information to the the group, last week I went to the shed to find the rear Paris Roubaix tubed tyre on my bike flat and off the rim. I simply swapped the wheels over for the dynonwheelsnid been intending to put on anyway and went for a ride. In the cold and wet the gen 1 Schwalbe Ones (25mm cause 28s don’t fit under the guards) felt very sketchy.

Yesterday I swapped them out for a pair of Hutchinson Fusion 5 ... All Season. The 28s came up at just over 29mm wide on 19mm internal rims and fit under my guards. The carcass feels really. I’ve and supple, particularly for a winter tyre. Hopefully there is enough grip and suitable tread to feel and be. Dryer in the winter smog - I’ll report when I’m allowed to ride again next week.

These and a pair of 25s all mounted with just a track pump first time and were installed without levers.

Good so far.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on November 02, 2018, 06:05:30 pm
Used the proper ust tape (replacing the old Stans tape) for my Mavic rear UST rear wheel. I can confirm this makes it rather easy to put the tyre on with just your thumbs.  I think this is because the Mavic tape is much thinner (hopefully equally strong) so exposes the well much better to ease fitting. I can also confirm Stans 44mm valves are much better than Mavic ones. The Mavic ones are shorter and do not have a thread all the way down the valve so are much fiddlier to fit. 
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on November 02, 2018, 06:34:08 pm
Black ones do, and are long.
Not sure where you get them from though sorry!
Most Mavic valves are silver but my bike came with black ones which are longer.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on November 03, 2018, 09:05:07 am
I think the Stans valve have. Better rubber bung for sitting nicely in the valve hole. The Mavic valve bung did not sit quite right in their own rim well!  Well tyre has not lost any air overnight with Stans valve so all good.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on November 03, 2018, 06:54:43 pm
Yeah. I do think the stans circular design is slightly better being circular rather than semi-cylindrical, so it doesn't have to be oriented correctly to seat.
Only thing I'm slightly curious about is that mine seem to be unobtanium as the only place I can find black ones is SJS cycles
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tyres-tubestubeless-tyre-spares/mavic-80mm-ust-valve-for-46mm-to-66mm-deep-rims/
and I'm sure mine are slightly less than 80mm and I could have sworn they are threaded all the way.
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4p8wojKCi3_SKA2ysnb1U8SQKUKeV8TWFVLLWoR7c1Pp5qRSzxZzT9eejpwPVVEjVFVEhQlkRIFiKYy1Qsmo9HVHGjLFqLdrOGhfGbBO2xTaCgTKidEIv2nt44vj3YCE4tt-fovcHcmt81mIcwh8QvOWBhfgRk2MIvYvVriYDQMkA/IMG_20181103_184635.jpg?psid=1&width=750&height=1332)
still I don't need to get any more, just bugs me slightly having something unobtanium on my bike.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kev Sp8 on November 03, 2018, 07:59:49 pm
I have recently come over to tubeless, despite some concerns, which have thus far all turned out to have been misplaced. I've mounted Hutchinson Sector 32's on Pacenti Forza rims. Easily got them on by hand and seated first time with a blast of CO2. Stans valves and sealant, for the record.
I love how they feel on my new bike (Reilly Gradient) and am riding a 300 next week to test them out properly.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Somnolent on November 06, 2018, 12:39:09 pm
Anecdata again, but after a successful "seal on the go" on the Upper Thames last weekend I feel the Caffelatex is quicker at sealing than the Schwalbe sealant (re-badged Stan's).  Certainly no need to add any air.
But, by heck, cleaning the dried sealant off the inside of the mudguard later was a major task.     It sticks like the proverbial excrement on a blanket.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 06, 2018, 12:46:35 pm
Finish Line sealant=shite.

Do not buy.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on November 06, 2018, 12:47:52 pm
Finish Line sealant=shite.

Do not buy.

In that it doesn't seal punctures?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 06, 2018, 01:46:04 pm
Doesn't seem to.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on November 08, 2018, 12:31:30 pm
great to see new conti gp5000 released in tubeless version, and also available in 32mm width (along with 25 and 28mm). looks like a perfect tyre for the pbp next year.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 08, 2018, 04:08:58 pm
great to see new conti gp5000 released in tubeless version, and also available in 32mm width (along with 25 and 28mm). looks like a perfect tyre for the pbp next year.

Do they do it with reflective sidewalls?

J
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 08, 2018, 04:10:48 pm
To Answer my own question: No.

But I do notice they have a 650b version! which is rather nice.
28 mm only, but it's a start.

J
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on November 08, 2018, 05:48:30 pm
Unimpressive on paper. A 60 TPI, 300 g, 25 mm tubeless tyre with built-in butyl seal layer and extra rubber leading up from the bead is unlikely to be as fast or comfortable as a regular clincher with a latex tube (and probably not even with a light butyl tube).

They’ve also messed with the Grand Prix 4000 S II cosmetic tread pattern that accidentally happened to be aerodynamically beneficial with aero rims. What’s the betting that’s a regression?

Also no progress on a tubeless standard from the leader in road bicycle tyres. As is too often the case, Mavic is the only company with the engineering chops and integrity to try.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 08, 2018, 06:31:56 pm
180tpi, not 60.

Continental are saying the TL has 5% less rolling resistance than the non-TL version...

...so not as bad as you are trying to make out.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Phil W on November 08, 2018, 06:39:59 pm
Samuel has got a bit confused.

It is 330 TPI according to the Continental website and the 295g is for the 32mm size. The 25mm size is 220g.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 08, 2018, 06:47:41 pm
I think those specs are for the clincher.

Samuel D got the weight of the TL right but the thread count woefully wrong. His opinion (based on no evidence whatsoever....quelle surprise) that the TL is "unlikely to be as fast" as the clincher contradicts the evidence presented by Continental themselves. Still what would they know  ::-)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Zed43 on November 08, 2018, 07:44:05 pm
Continental uses a 60 or 110tpi fabric, then puts three layers on top of each other and calls it 180tpi or 330tpi. From what I understand of it reading cyclingtips.com anyway.

At these prices I may as well stick to the Compass tyres (although their narrowest tubeless 700c is 35mm at the moment)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on November 08, 2018, 08:14:48 pm
Yes, Continental routinely mislabels the thread-count. There are three plies under the crown and they simply triple the ply thread-count as if we couldn’t do our own multiplication if we wanted to for some strange reason. This practice is probably illegal but the regulators have bigger fish to fry.

The thread-count of each casing ply, i.e. the figure of comparison with other manufacturers’ tyres, is 60 per inch as I said. The claimed weight is 300 g for the 25 mm model as I said. Average weight off the production line is probably more like 320 g or they would have called it 200-and-something.

I assume it’s slower than the regular clincher with a latex tube because of the way the two tyres are constructed. For that not to be the case, the tubeless version would have to have a different tread compound or depth, which is possible but not in favour of the tubeless version. I wasn’t born yesterday so I pay little heed to claims like 5% faster [than some unspecified alternative]. Continental doesn’t even sell latex tubes so you can be sure they weren’t comparing to that. Where does Continental make this claim anyway? I only see second-hand versions.

All that is unimpressive on paper, and so is Continental’s willingness to put out a tubeless tyre before establishing a standard with the other big players. But perhaps they have reason to believe that a published standard is imminent.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on November 08, 2018, 08:37:18 pm
This may be the CyclingTips article Zed43 refers to:

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/11/continental-goes-tubeless-with-new-grand-prix-5000-road-tire/

It doesn’t make it clear that Continental triples the ply thread-count but does say “330tpi (total) nylon casing”. Should probably be clearer given Continental’s success at sowing confusion with this wheeze.

Oddly, the 5% faster claim takes another form there:

“As compared to the Grand Prix 4000 S II, Continental says the Grand Prix 5000 TL rolls 5% faster […]”

We’ll find out when Bicycle Rolling Resistance tests them. I’d put money on the old 4000 S II with a latex tube being faster than the 5000 TL.

Anyone know what might be meant by Active Comfort Technology?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on November 08, 2018, 08:48:50 pm
from my pov, i'd have been happy if the current gp4000s2 was available as a tubeless without any increased performance, their main advantage against competition being the quality of rubber compound (i haven't come across any tyres that come close). even if the claims of "increased this, decreased that" aren't true for the gp5000, the tyre that is, hopefully, at least as good as the 4000s2. i'm well aware that it's quite heavy* but no heavier than an equivalent tyre with a latex inner tube.

*in comparison tubeless hutchinson 5 galactics weigh 227g in 25mm (actual weight)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on November 08, 2018, 09:02:32 pm
I have recently come over to tubeless, despite some concerns, which have thus far all turned out to have been misplaced. I've mounted Hutchinson Sector 32's on Pacenti Forza rims. Easily got them on by hand and seated first time with a blast of CO2. Stans valves and sealant, for the record.
I love how they feel on my new bike (Reilly Gradient) and am riding a 300 next week to test them out properly.

Just FYI but co2 and stans sealant don't like each other

The co2 and the sealant have some kind of chemical reaction

In my experience what happens is that after a week or so if you look at the sealant there will just be some brown water.  The brown water will not seal a hole.

Without co2 the sealant is still good and looks like the original colour months later
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 09, 2018, 05:54:31 pm
I've also heard that various manufacturers – not just Continental – routinely call 3 plies of 60tpi 180tpi (etc).

I assume it’s slower than the regular clincher with a latex tube because of the way the two tyres are constructed.
This is rather the problem... Why assume? Might be better to find out from those who've used both tyres or wait for reliable test figures.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on November 10, 2018, 09:41:47 am
I've also heard that various manufacturers – not just Continental – routinely call 3 plies of 60tpi 180tpi (etc).

Tell us more.

I assume it’s slower than the regular clincher with a latex tube because of the way the two tyres are constructed.
This is rather the problem... Why assume? Might be better to find out from those who've used both tyres or wait for reliable test figures.

Because speculation is fun! I hope it’s obvious from my past that if facts emerge to cast doubt on my assumption I will adjust it cheerfully.

Meanwhile, it seems that Tom Anhalt, notable commentator and tester of tyres, jumped to literally identical conclusions to me in the comments on the CyclingTips article (https://cyclingtips.com/2018/11/continental-goes-tubeless-with-new-grand-prix-5000-road-tire/) above (his username is “tanhalt”).

He additionally notes there that Continental didn’t publish a Crr versus pressure chart for the various models, something that he thinks is “conspicuous by its absence”. It’s a good point. They did that for the 4000 S launch, didn’t they?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on November 10, 2018, 09:53:16 am
This launch is pretty odd. Little (and conflicting) information is available even though Continental flew about about 40 journalists (https://www.matosvelo.fr/index.php?post/2616/continental-grand-prix-5000-pneus-et-tubeless) out to Tenerife. BikeRadar said the launch was rescheduled earlier, and the tyres were supposed to be available immediately. They’re not available and most of them won’t be for weeks. Looks botched, not that this matters to anyone buying the tyres on merit.

For those interested, there’s a SlowTwitch thread here (https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Continental_5000_GP_tubeless_ready_P6787036/) with more Anhalt comments (username “Tom A.”). He’s sceptical about the Active Comfort Technology too. Has anyone come across a plausible explanation of what that does?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 10, 2018, 06:45:12 pm
I've also heard that various manufacturers – not just Continental – routinely call 3 plies of 60tpi 180tpi (etc).

Tell us more.
There's not much more to tell. I've simply read it as a general warning/advice, that for some manufacturers "120tpi" means "120tpi in each ply" and for others it means "120tpi in total, divide by number of plys to find tpi per ply". It's never (that I've seen) been linked to any named manufacturer, but I have a feeling Vittoria do it, for instance. In fact, I wonder if most do. That said, my impression from using both on the same bike is that Vittoria Rubino roll better than Continental GP4Seasons. But that's irrelevant to this thread as neither are tubeless.

I assume it’s slower than the regular clincher with a latex tube because of the way the two tyres are constructed.
This is rather the problem... Why assume? Might be better to find out from those who've used both tyres or wait for reliable test figures.

Because speculation is fun! I hope it’s obvious from my past that if facts emerge to cast doubt on my assumption I will adjust it cheerfully.
I don't know about your past! But admittedly you did give reasoning and state clearly it's not based on experience or data, so it's not actually misleading.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 10, 2018, 10:03:23 pm
Schwalbe used to make this claim on their website - that other manufacturers quoted the total of the three fabric layers rather than just the thread count of each layer. They didn’t say which or all, and even though 320tpi (or 260) corespun cotton is not divisible by 3 it’s possible there is some rounding going on.

Whatever, open corsas ride very nicely.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Samuel D on November 11, 2018, 01:04:18 pm
Schwalbe still makes such claims. (https://www.schwalbe.com/en/reifenaufbau.html) Under the section “What does EPI mean in relation to the carcass?” is written among other things:

“But be cautious when comparing EPI indications, as often the number of strands of all carcass layers are added together. An indication of 200 TPI results e.g. from 3 layers of 67 EPI each underneath the tread. With all EPI numbers above 150, it should be assumed that the figures have been calculated by adding up the strands in all layers. Schwalbe only indicates the material density in one carcass layer. Commonly, there are 3 carcass layers underneath the tread.”

I just counted the cords in a Schwalbe One (HS 448) tyre. This was difficult because the rubber coating partially obscures them and I don’t have a linen tester or even a magnifying glass. I made it about 110 TPI, which is close enough to Schwalbe’s claim of 127 TPI. About every 4 mm runs a supporting perpendicular cord (the warp to the weft, so to speak).

If I can get my hands on a linen tester I’ll attempt a more precise count of the threads in a Veloflex Master open tubular.

By the way, I think some of the open tubular designs have only two casing plies under the tread but then have a third strip of the same fabric glued beneath the tread as a rudimentary puncture strip. By counting only the plies of the casing itself the manufacturer would have an excuse for doubling the tread count (rather than tripling it) in the interest of making the TPI claim more plausible than Continental’s brass-necked exaggeration.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on November 12, 2018, 09:21:29 am
Why is 3 layers of 110 tpi not as good as one layer of 330 tpi?
The strands presumably don't all line up.
If a thorn manages to get between the strands of one layer, it might get caught on a strand in the next layer.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 12, 2018, 09:32:37 am
Why is 3 layers of 110 tpi not as good as one layer of 330 tpi?
The strands presumably don't all line up.
If a thorn manages to get between the strands of one layer, it might get caught on a strand in the next layer.

High tpi counts indicate very thin and flexible threads, which leads to a carcass that is softer and with less hysteresis. Consequently, the the tyre is likely to be more comfortable and have lower rolling resistance.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: grams on November 12, 2018, 09:45:34 am
I read that Schwalbe blurb as saying there’s no such thing as a true 330 tpi tyre, and that they’re accusing other manufacturers of inflating their specs by adding the numbers up for each layer.

So a Continental “320 tpi” tyre may have *fewer* threads in each layer than a Schalbe “127 tpi”.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on November 12, 2018, 10:31:59 am
Why is 3 layers of 110 tpi not as good as one layer of 330 tpi?
The strands presumably don't all line up.
If a thorn manages to get between the strands of one layer, it might get caught on a strand in the next layer.

High tpi counts indicate very thin and flexible threads, which leads to a carcass that is softer and with less hysteresis. Consequently, the the tyre is likely to be more comfortable and have lower rolling resistance.

So surely 3 layers of 110tpi is the best of both worlds.... it seems to be being argued above (not by you) that claiming 330 tpi when it is in fact 3x110 is somehow "cheating"... :-\
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on November 12, 2018, 10:33:48 am
Three plys of 110TPI layered will be stiffer than a single thickness ply of 330TPI.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on November 12, 2018, 10:36:39 am
Why is 3 layers of 110 tpi not as good as one layer of 330 tpi?
The strands presumably don't all line up.
If a thorn manages to get between the strands of one layer, it might get caught on a strand in the next layer.

High tpi counts indicate very thin and flexible threads, which leads to a carcass that is softer and with less hysteresis. Consequently, the the tyre is likely to be more comfortable and have lower rolling resistance.

So surely 3 layers of 110tpi is the best of both worlds.... it seems to be being argued above (not by you) that claiming 330 tpi when it is in fact 3x110 is somehow "cheating"... :-\

3 x 110tpi is like wearing 3 jumpers

330tpi is a completely different thing to 3 x 110tpi
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on November 12, 2018, 10:39:24 am
yeah but better or worse?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 12, 2018, 11:05:08 am
yeah but better or worse?
More supple.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 12, 2018, 12:49:40 pm
Since we do not know which methods tyre manufacturers use to describe the construction of their products, comparison is meaningless.

I'm inclined to offer a weary 'so what' to this rather pointless discussion. It seems a rather weak attempt to further Samuel's 'tubeless is rubbish' agenda.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 12, 2018, 10:17:00 pm
I don’t think that was where we were at. I’m tubeless on all bit on bike.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rogerzilla on November 13, 2018, 08:14:58 am
We've now lost two more members as a result of this thread.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 13, 2018, 08:43:49 am
We've now lost two more members as a result of this thread.

I’m a bit surprised by that. I’ve just reread it and the discussion is courteous and largely either admitted opinion or technical - other than HF’s single comment. Seems a bit odd.

The other thread degenerated and is best forgotten, while being remembered as an example of what can happen.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Karla on November 13, 2018, 08:59:32 am
Could we just clear something up?  Going tubeless is like your bike going commando, right?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rogerzilla on November 13, 2018, 09:53:18 am
What's going tubular, then?  That must be like wearing long johns and trousers, sewn together at the waist and the ankles.  All very secure until you need to address a leak.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 13, 2018, 11:10:15 am
If you believe all you read on here you'd think that if you go tubeless, sooner or later you'll be riding bareback.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 13, 2018, 05:45:16 pm
What's going tubular, then?  That must be like wearing long johns and trousers, sewn together at the waist and the ankles.  All very secure until you need to address a leak.

If you put a bit of sealant in, its like being smothered in goose fat and sewn into your winter clothes.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rogerzilla on November 13, 2018, 06:38:21 pm
You pay good money for that in Soho.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on November 13, 2018, 07:27:27 pm
Three plys of 110TPI layered will be stiffer than a single thickness ply of 330TPI.

This makes me wonder - just to further derail the discussion - is there such a thing as a bicycle tyre with a single-layered carcass?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on November 13, 2018, 07:29:38 pm
You pay good money for that in Soho.

When dining out in Soho, one can avoid the overpriced fare of the tourist traps if one has local knowledge. I imagine that holds true of other leisure activities too.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 13, 2018, 09:18:34 pm
To get back on track. I was seduced by the claims of finish line Kevlar sealant. I put it into two new tyres on rims that were designed for tubeless. The rear tyre has stayed up but the front has deflated on 5 successive days despite in excess of 100km and multiple re inflations to 100psi.

I will be using stans in future.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sg37409 on November 14, 2018, 09:02:39 am
(If previously posted, apols, I don't follow this thread avidly and its pretty active)

Continental GP5000 tubeless (https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/continentals-grand-prix-5000-tubeless-tyre-14-years-making-399309?fbclid=IwAR3e2afDWMGD2a0wO0Qu0tOKozewBQdbZaWADqbuodFHSfriHQ-hJiPEgFY)

Check the price though! And they seem heavy.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Scrantaj on November 14, 2018, 11:31:44 am
To get back on track. I was seduced by the claims of finish line Kevlar sealant. I put it into two new tyres on rims that were designed for tubeless. The rear tyre has stayed up but the front has deflated on 5 successive days despite in excess of 100km and multiple re inflations to 100psi.

I will be using stans in future.

Had the same experiance.  On paper it sounds like it should be great but in practice the liquid bit just doesnt seem to want to "cure" properly and make the seal.  Maybe they had to make it thinner to carry the carbon fibre without turning to porridge, I don't know.  Whatever it is, it doesnt work.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 14, 2018, 11:42:22 am
It is also very expensive
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on November 14, 2018, 12:08:05 pm
To get back on track. I was seduced by the claims of finish line Kevlar sealant. I put it into two new tyres on rims that were designed for tubeless. The rear tyre has stayed up but the front has deflated on 5 successive days despite in excess of 100km and multiple re inflations to 100psi.

I will be using stans in future.

Had the same experiance.  On paper it sounds like it should be great but in practice the liquid bit just doesnt seem to want to "cure" properly and make the seal.  Maybe they had to make it thinner to carry the carbon fibre without turning to porridge, I don't know.  Whatever it is, it doesnt work.

My initial experience was similar, with lots of leakage around the bead and overnight deflation, but once I'd gone out for a couple of 25mile + rides it all sealed up nicely, and retains pressure as well as the tyres I've used Doc Blue on.

I've yet to have a puncture tho, so have no idea of the level of performance there. I may top up that pair of tyres to make up for the initial losses.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on November 16, 2018, 10:44:55 am
i haven't had this problem yet, but it can happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYBM-WCAcsE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYBM-WCAcsE)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on November 16, 2018, 11:13:49 am
i haven't had this problem yet, but it can happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYBM-WCAcsE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYBM-WCAcsE)

Oh FFS - that was painful to watch, he even said he was going to ignore the thing that would have got him back in the game (soapy water!) and failed to adequately clean the tyre/rim.  It wasn't a failure of tubeless - it was a failure of his workflow, the time wasted was of his own making unfortunately!

Good bits from the video was showing how easy it was to remove the tyre with his hands.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on November 16, 2018, 11:15:50 am
I said I'd only go tubeless when Continental joined in.

Now they have, I have to make a decision.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on November 16, 2018, 02:12:24 pm


Good bits from the video was showing how easy it was to remove the tyre with his hands.

everyone who used tubeless knows it's easy, or at least no harder than tubed tyres..
come to think of it i hardly ever use tyre levers on any wheels i own
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fd3 on November 16, 2018, 06:23:01 pm
Specific question (probably for mike) what size valves do I need?  I have Kinlin XR22Ts.  Should it be depth (~22mm) + a couple cm?  (I'm guessing 55mm would do as that gives me enough space for pump and knuts to hold it in place).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: sojournermike on November 16, 2018, 08:46:53 pm
Specific question (probably for mike) what size valves do I need?  I have Kinlin XR22Ts.  Should it be depth (~22mm) + a couple cm?  (I'm guessing 55mm would do as that gives me enough space for pump and knuts to hold it in place).

55mm will be plenty. 40mm would probably be fine, but shorter might make inflating tyres difficult, depending on how well and where your pump seals against the valve stem. I’ve got a pair of valves on one set of rims that are a bit too short and tbh there a pain, but the tyres don’t lose air very quickly and I haven’t yet bothered to swap them out.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fd3 on November 16, 2018, 09:39:51 pm
Thanks!  I thought I would err on the side of longer as the valves on my tubes only just poke out far enough for the pump.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: citoyen on January 30, 2019, 10:22:16 am
M'colleague asked for my advice this morning...

She bought a new commuting bike fitted with tubeless tyres in October and has got on well with them so far, but this morning she found her rear tyre had gone flat overnight. She pumped it up and rode to work but it is losing air pressure.

I said it sounds like it could just need topping up with fresh sealant (which is what I did to successfully cure similar symptoms) but does anyone have any thoughts on other potential causes and solutions?

She also asked how she goes about topping up the sealant... I tried to explain but could see her eyes glazing over. Maybe it would be easier to just do it for her.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeterM on January 30, 2019, 04:57:06 pm
When cleaning the lanefilth from the Mason after last weekend's wet 200, I found a couple of substantial flints embedded in the tread of the rear tyre*.  There's been no loss of pressure, nor any sign of sealant around the cuts.

What does the panel think:  Should I remove the flints or leave them there?

* Hutchinson Fusion5 All Season in 28-622.  Impressively grippy and has shrugged off half a dozen winter 200s so far
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 30, 2019, 06:04:43 pm
Id say pull it out, see if it seals, and if not put a tubeless patch on the inside of the tyre.

Better to do this at home, at your convenience, in the warm and dry...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeterM on January 30, 2019, 06:26:25 pm
Better to do this at home, at your convenience, in the warm and dry...

...and with a spare tyre to hand.

Thanks.  I'll give it a go
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 30, 2019, 06:50:45 pm
If you are a real tightarse you can even suck the sealant into a syringe and reuse it when you remount the patched tyre. ;D

You won't need a spare tyre, I suspect. Patching works well IME.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on February 11, 2019, 02:31:26 pm
To get back on track. I was seduced by the claims of finish line Kevlar sealant. I put it into two new tyres on rims that were designed for tubeless. The rear tyre has stayed up but the front has deflated on 5 successive days despite in excess of 100km and multiple re inflations to 100psi.

I will be using stans in future.

Had the same experiance.  On paper it sounds like it should be great but in practice the liquid bit just doesnt seem to want to "cure" properly and make the seal.  Maybe they had to make it thinner to carry the carbon fibre without turning to porridge, I don't know.  Whatever it is, it doesnt work.

My initial experience was similar, with lots of leakage around the bead and overnight deflation, but once I'd gone out for a couple of 25mile + rides it all sealed up nicely, and retains pressure as well as the tyres I've used Doc Blue on.

I've yet to have a puncture tho, so have no idea of the level of performance there. I may top up that pair of tyres to make up for the initial losses.

Well an update. Left to their own devices (ie in the shed untouched) the tyres with Finish Line in continue to deflate, one at an almost acceptable rate, the other most definitely not, with leakage around the rim as evidenced by escaping moisture. It might be a tyre bead issue, as the rims were previously used successfully with a different tyre.

Anyway, after some thought, I've decided to revert to latex (or in my case pseudo latex Caffelatex) sealant. And I'm switching tyres to Fusion 5 All Seasons.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 11, 2019, 02:51:28 pm


Has anyone tried flying with tubeless tyres? Any issues to be be aware of?

J
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Zed43 on February 11, 2019, 03:00:39 pm
Has anyone tried flying with tubeless tyres? Any issues to be be aware of?
Unless you get a hand inspection by someone who insists you should completely deflate your tyres you're fine. (I always let a little air out so I can declare in all honesty that yes, I did deflate my tyres  ;D) If you deflate the tyre to the point that the bead comes loose from the lip of the rim you're SOL unless you bring a compressor.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on February 11, 2019, 03:33:29 pm


Has anyone tried flying with tubeless tyres? Any issues to be be aware of?

J

I flew at Xmas without problems, just dropped them down to 30psi or so.  I pontificated over what to do but the general google results showed the cargo to be pressureised for circa 10,000ft and designed to be habitable by animals, so its not a huge pressure change in real terms.... if the hold depressureises, there's more to worry about than sealant all over the inside of a bike box IMHO.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: quixoticgeek on February 12, 2019, 12:21:20 pm

Cheers. Am trying to work out what to run on the TCR (and how to get there)

J
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fuaran on February 12, 2019, 12:53:41 pm
Even if the hold is completely depressurised, it's still only a change of about 1 bar/ 15 psi. So it won't make much difference to your tyres.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: grams on February 12, 2019, 01:07:37 pm
The hold is the same pressure vessel as the cabin - ther cabin floor is not airtight - so if the hold depressurises you have bigger things to worry about as you lose consciousness and glide gently into the ocean.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Peat on February 13, 2019, 01:38:34 pm
To get back on track. I was seduced by the claims of finish line Kevlar sealant. I put it into two new tyres on rims that were designed for tubeless. The rear tyre has stayed up but the front has deflated on 5 successive days despite in excess of 100km and multiple re inflations to 100psi.

I will be using stans in future.

Had the same experiance.  On paper it sounds like it should be great but in practice the liquid bit just doesnt seem to want to "cure" properly and make the seal.  Maybe they had to make it thinner to carry the carbon fibre without turning to porridge, I don't know.  Whatever it is, it doesnt work.

My initial experience was similar, with lots of leakage around the bead and overnight deflation, but once I'd gone out for a couple of 25mile + rides it all sealed up nicely, and retains pressure as well as the tyres I've used Doc Blue on.

I've yet to have a puncture tho, so have no idea of the level of performance there. I may top up that pair of tyres to make up for the initial losses.

Well an update. Left to their own devices (ie in the shed untouched) the tyres with Finish Line in continue to deflate, one at an almost acceptable rate, the other most definitely not, with leakage around the rim as evidenced by escaping moisture. It might be a tyre bead issue, as the rims were previously used successfully with a different tyre.

Anyway, after some thought, I've decided to revert to latex (or in my case pseudo latex Caffelatex) sealant. And I'm switching tyres to Fusion 5 All Seasons.

I've had some finishline in my MTB tyres for a few months. They have finally stopped weeping - but does that mean they are sealed or does it mean that the juice has all dried up....?

Anyway, been using Caffelatex on my other bikes now and am quite happy with it. I say that, but i don't actually know if it's saved my bacon at all yet.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on February 13, 2019, 02:33:35 pm


Has anyone tried flying with tubeless tyres? Any issues to be be aware of?

J

Even if it completely depressurises it will only make a difference of about 25%.
The relative pressure difference between tyres (70 psi = ~5bar) and atmosphere (~1bar) is ~4 bar.
If the atmosphere drops to 0, it is a difference of ~5bar, instead of 4, which is still only like having the tyres inflated to 87 psi on the ground, which they can easily handle.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ivan on February 13, 2019, 05:38:21 pm
This is good guide to flying and covers what has been discussed here: https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/bikes-public-transport/bikes-air

On a different topic, got an old wheel out yesterday, and could not get the tyre off on one side (S-One + Pancenti SL23), try as hard as I could - ended up cutting it off as was a worn out tyre, but is there a trick to unseating recalcitrant beads? Felt like the sealant had effectively glued it to the rim.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Klar on February 13, 2019, 05:42:58 pm
Yes, I had to resort to using a bench vice. It worked (using leverage) but I was worried about what would have happened if I had a failure out on the road that couldn't be fixed by a worm.

It seemed to be just that rim / tyre combo and I've swapped rims since. They were WTB ST rims with WTB Horizon tyres.

I now have WTB KOM rims and WTB Horizon tyres (all new) and I haven't had a problem.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: phil w on February 13, 2019, 05:55:23 pm

Cheers. Am trying to work out what to run on the TCR (and how to get there)

J

I am due to have delivered some Sector 32s.  Ran the 28s on my old frame and not a puncture in four years and they rolled much better than the Durano Plus 23s they replaced.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on February 13, 2019, 07:44:04 pm
Has anyone tried flying with tubeless tyres? Any issues to be be aware of?
Unless you get a hand inspection by someone who insists you should completely deflate your tyres you're fine. (I always let a little air out so I can declare in all honesty that yes, I did deflate my tyres  ;D) If you deflate the tyre to the point that the bead comes loose from the lip of the rim you're SOL unless you bring a compressor.
I have only put my bike on 3 planes (all BA), but one handler (a very thorough German) did go for hand inspection, and wouldn't be fooled by my fairly-flat tyres*, thus wasting more of my time :(

So it does happen. HTH.


*Clinchers of course  :smug:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on February 13, 2019, 07:50:29 pm
This is good guide to flying and covers what has been discussed here: https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/bikes-public-transport/bikes-air

On a different topic, got an old wheel out yesterday, and could not get the tyre off on one side (S-One + Pancenti SL23), try as hard as I could - ended up cutting it off as was a worn out tyre, but is there a trick to unseating recalcitrant beads? Felt like the sealant had effectively glued it to the rim.

Interesting. I ran S-Ones on SL25’s for 18 months and had no trouble unseating the bead by hand. Maybe it depends on how much sealant gets around the bead initially?  I always seat the tyres first using a soapy spray, then add sealant through the valve.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Sea of vapours on February 13, 2019, 08:54:12 pm
Has anyone here experience of both Hutchinson Sector 28s and IRC Formula Pro X-Guard 28s?

I've been using the Sector 28s for several years and I'm happy with them in all areas bar wet grip. I'm now considering the IRCs specifically for their alleged very good grip in the wet, but I've not read a direct comparison between the two and hence don't know what to expect in other respects. So, I'm wondering if anyone here can comment on their experiences of the differences between the two in terms of things such as comfort and durability.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on March 02, 2019, 09:12:21 pm
This is good guide to flying and covers what has been discussed here: https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/bikes-public-transport/bikes-air

On a different topic, got an old wheel out yesterday, and could not get the tyre off on one side (S-One + Pancenti SL23), try as hard as I could - ended up cutting it off as was a worn out tyre, but is there a trick to unseating recalcitrant beads? Felt like the sealant had effectively glued it to the rim.

Interesting. I ran S-Ones on SL25’s for 18 months and had no trouble unseating the bead by hand. Maybe it depends on how much sealant gets around the bead initially?  I always seat the tyres first using a soapy spray, then add sealant through the valve.

Hmm, well today I had to dismount a Hutchinson tyre from the Pacenti’s.  Bloody hell that was well seated  :o
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on March 03, 2019, 03:03:47 pm
Planet X are now selling some tubeless ready wide tyres for much cheaper than in other shops - my dad just bought a set (£21 each).

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TYCLBOSTRF/clement-bos-tubeless-ready-folding-tyre-700c

Apparently Panaracer Gravelkings are fine to run tubelessly too https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TYPAGRFT/panaracer-gravel-king-folding-tyre
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on March 03, 2019, 03:07:33 pm
I wouldn't recommend running non-tubeless tyres as tubeless.

Gravelkings come in tubeless version too
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on March 13, 2019, 01:56:49 pm
I would say that those gravelkings are probably not tubeless ready.  Email planet x and ask them
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on March 13, 2019, 02:08:44 pm
ok tubeless update

I got some specialized 2bliss tyres.  They are 31mm, flexible, pretty much slick, Specialized compound.  On the invoice they were described as

Specialized
Black
Roubaix Pro 2Bliss Ready Clincher Tyre (Tubeless)


So the first thing I did was try to fit them to my wheels on the best bike which are Velocity Ailerons.  These have worked fine with Vittoria Adventure II tubeless and Schwalbe S-One tubeless.  However, the 2bliss tyres did not want to inflate.  I tried them with a tube inside to stretch them a bit but this didn't help.  After a couple of unrewarding afternoons with sealant spraying about I gave up

Today I had another go.  I put them on a spare wheel ( Fulcrum DB Sport ) and they worked straight away.  I had to use sealant but I think that was leakage around the valve - these wheels hadn't been tubeless before, it was a new valve

In other news I also have some of the new continental 5000 tyres on order and some Pacenti rims
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on March 13, 2019, 04:47:50 pm
ok tubeless update

I got some specialized 2bliss tyres.  They are 31mm, flexible, pretty much slick, Specialized compound.  On the invoice they were described as

Specialized
Black
Roubaix Pro 2Bliss Ready Clincher Tyre (Tubeless)


So the first thing I did was try to fit them to my wheels on the best bike which are Velocity Ailerons.  These have worked fine with Vittoria Adventure II tubeless and Schwalbe S-One tubeless.  However, the 2bliss tyres did not want to inflate.  I tried them with a tube inside to stretch them a bit but this didn't help.  After a couple of unrewarding afternoons with sealant spraying about I gave up

Today I had another go.  I put them on a spare wheel ( Fulcrum DB Sport ) and they worked straight away.  I had to use sealant but I think that was leakage around the valve - these wheels hadn't been tubeless before, it was a new valve

In other news I also have some of the new continental 5000 tyres on order and some Pacenti rims

I had an issue recently with lack of inflation which was the valve core needed replacing as the air whilst going in, wasn't going in quick enough even at 140psi
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on March 15, 2019, 12:12:30 pm
Trying to put Conti 5000s on my rims. Big pain in the arse is removing the old rim tape (maybe it would have worked but it's not tubeless tape). Left a layer of sticky gunk on the inside of the rim. I tried acetone which was fairly ineffective but I found motorcycle chain cleaner worked better. I'll have to go around again with the acetone to make sure there's no residue from the cleaner before I try applying the rim tape.

It's already seeming like more hassle than it's likely to be worth.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on March 15, 2019, 08:59:19 pm
Well I managed to get the rim clean enough, taped, put the valve and tyre on - sealed around the rim with no sealant, but leaking from the valve hole a bit. Stan's sealant injected and it holds 80psi seemingly without issue.  :thumbsup:

Rear tyre after dinner and then will see if there's any air in there tomorrow.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on March 15, 2019, 09:09:36 pm
I'm going to try to do the tubeless shuffle again tomorrow morning with a few added layers of rim tape. Wish me luck YACF.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on March 16, 2019, 03:25:15 pm
I'm going to try to do the tubeless shuffle again tomorrow morning with a few added layers of rim tape. Wish me luck YACF.

Single layer of Stan's tape, DT Swiss R470 rims, Conti 5000 TL 700x25, DT Swiss Valves. Both tyres sealed just with a track pump, without sealant. With sealant, have stayed up overnight.

I made one mistake: put the o-ring on the first valve on the inside of the rim and it didn't seal reliably. Fixing that and they've both stayed up overnight - need to check pressures before riding. I might add a bit more sealant as a bit got lost with to fix the valve issue.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on March 16, 2019, 03:33:59 pm
Another update

The 31mm Specialized Roubaix Pro 2Bliss Ready tyres are now on the best bike

You may recall that the Velocity Aileron rims on my best bike apparently rejected these tyres on a previous attempt.  But as I got them to work on the Fulcrum rims I thought I'd have another go

First go didn't work.  So I tried the Conti 5000 instead as I had all the kit out.  They didn't work either.
I didn't think that the inflator bottle was working that well.  It didn't seem aggressive enough.  I checked the valve on the wheel, that seemed ok.  So I figured why not try a CO2 inflator instead?  I wouldn't normally do this on tubeless as the CO2 reacts badly with the sealant.

I wacked on a CO2 inflator and .. kapow!  The bead seated and the tyre was up and at a good pressure.

I put the Specialized tyre on and did the same thing.  To get the sealant in
I released the pressure without letting the bead seal go, removed the valve core, added sealant then reinflated with the track pump

Did the back tyre as well.  Rode the bike to the shop and back.  I probably need to have them pumped up a bit less

I think that the inflator bottle must have some crap (leaked out sealant) in the pipes somewhere

I didn't try out the conti 5000 beyond inflating them btw
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on March 17, 2019, 02:35:43 pm
10-20 psi lost overnight first night. Topped up sealant and pumped back up to 80psi. 3-5psi drop last night groovy.

Going for a ride shortly. Will take spare tubes with me. Need to invest in some tubeless puncture repair stuff.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on March 17, 2019, 08:32:10 pm
10-20 psi lost overnight first night. Topped up sealant and pumped back up to 80psi. 3-5psi drop last night groovy.

Going for a ride shortly. Will take spare tubes with me. Need to invest in some tubeless puncture repair stuff.

All good, 58km done. Going from 28mm 4 Seasons to 25mm 5000 TL has made the bike feel a lot faster, and less spongy.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on March 17, 2019, 10:09:31 pm
My advice, based on 3 years use would be to use Orangeseal endurance sealant, and carry patches to glue on inside of tyre in case of non-sealing puncture. Never got on with those anchovy things.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: PeterM on March 17, 2019, 10:43:13 pm
Flexible Superglue is also handy for the rare puncture that sealant can’t cope with
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on March 18, 2019, 09:11:14 am
good article on road.cc

https://road.cc/content/feature/257746-what-they-dont-tell-you-about-tubeless
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on March 18, 2019, 10:35:36 am
My advice, based on 3 years use would be to use Orangeseal endurance sealant, and carry patches to glue on inside of tyre in case of non-sealing puncture. Never got on with those anchovy things.

I think the worms are of variable quality depending on the supplier.  They've worked well for me as long as there is still sealant in the tyre (using Caffelatex)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on March 18, 2019, 10:45:51 am
Which worms have you found best?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on March 18, 2019, 11:24:59 am
I looked at dynaplug. The idea of leaving a pointy thing inside the tyre seems to be asking for trouble (puncture again, force it through rim tape).

I also looked at a video demoing using anchovies to fix motorcycle punctures. The kit they used included vulcanising solution to help seal the hole. I guess that might help get a reliable seal if you lack sufficient sealant inside the tyre after the puncture.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on March 18, 2019, 12:16:08 pm
good article on road.cc

https://road.cc/content/feature/257746-what-they-dont-tell-you-about-tubeless

I was curious re the effect of CO2 and sealants, but have failed to find a comprehensive answer - some say it'll turn the sealant hard, others that it will become watery and ineffective - and that was for Stans in both cases.

Effecto Mariposa (aka Caffelatex) say that it's the thermal shock from the CO2 that can cause polymerisation to start, so exposure to CO2 isn't the issue with their sealant, and if the valve is at 12:00 for some time before inflation - to let the sealant drain away - you should be ok to use CO2 inflators. Maybe it's the same for other sealants too?

On another note - searching the internets hasn't turned up a cogent reason for not using NO2 canisters in place of CO2. I'm sure the chemists here can explain why it's not a good idea...

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on March 18, 2019, 12:26:04 pm
Stans say CO2 is ok in an emergency, valve at the top.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on March 24, 2019, 03:50:33 pm
had a slow deflation today from a piece of wire. the hole could not seal with the wire in it as the sealant cannot attach itself to smooth/slippery foreign objects. removed the wire with a door key*, pumped up the tyre (with the puncture at the bottom) and all was well.

* will need to include a pointy tool or a small knife into my saddle bag for the future.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190324/f01f0ff77266958681fabef6fe359e18.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190324/75325dbae6a6e2f9f615edbd03b9bbb5.jpg)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on March 24, 2019, 05:46:27 pm
Which worms have you found best?

Sorry missed this, Maxalami ones. 2 sizes, I have often cut down the larger as well as use the smaller.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on March 30, 2019, 10:34:49 pm
Today I tried to fit a pair of tyres - same type and size- to a pair  of factory prepped rims - same type and size. Rear first, tyre on, then a blast from the Joe Blow booster, and the tyre seats nicely and stays well inflated for several hours. Front, tried three times, no joy, just wouldn’t seat. CO2 blast did it, but deflated in minutes. Tried another tyre (same type & size) same result. Eventually replaced the factory tape, and bingo. What a pain.
Title: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: CSX on March 31, 2019, 09:36:42 pm
CO2 blast did it

I heard that it’s better not to use CO2 canisters with tubeless, because it ruins the sealant.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: rafletcher on April 01, 2019, 12:02:51 pm
CO2 blast did it

I heard that it’s better not to use CO2 canisters with tubeless, because it ruins the sealant.

Yes, I know. This was just the preliminary seating of the bead - I like to check how things are going before getting messy with sealant.

As for the CO2 thing, as far as I can tell it's not exposure to high concentrations of CO2 that are the problem, but that the inevitable thermal shock of the cooling expanded CO2  can cause polymerisation of the sealant. Recommendation is, if using CO2, to set the wheel with the valve at the top, and leave time for sealant to flow down to the bottom, so keeping the cold CO2 away from the liquid sealant.

In my case CO2 is a last resort, hence my checking / replacing the taping, so I can manage with just the air-shot pump when it comes to seating the tyre with sealant in.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on April 01, 2019, 10:23:18 pm
Been a few weeks since I did my fishing wire, tubeless repair kit and shoegoo bodge of the tyre back together, and it's held up fine with tubes.

I'm going to try running it tubeless again this week, we'll see how it goes.

(http://i.imgur.com/1vTDAqq.jpg)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Kev Sp8 on April 03, 2019, 07:42:34 pm
Evening all. I've just been looking at my rear Hutchinson Fusion 5 and found at least a dozen cuts in the 1-5mm range. I've definitely had three punctures which sealed, albeit after fairly significant sealant loss and goodness knows how many others that I never noticed.

My question is, is there a point at which you consider your tyres to have been compromised by so many nicks and cuts that it is time to swap it out? Do you just keep running it, provided it holds pressure?

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on April 03, 2019, 08:26:07 pm
Evening all. I've just been looking at my rear Hutchinson Fusion 5 and found at least a dozen cuts in the 1-5mm range. I've definitely had three punctures which sealed, albeit after fairly significant sealant loss and goodness knows how many others that I never noticed.

My question is, is there a point at which you consider your tyres to have been compromised by so many nicks and cuts that it is time to swap it out? Do you just keep running it, provided it holds pressure?

It depends.  Let's consider normal tubed clinchers first.  If they are Schwalbe Marathon sort-of-tyres then look for obvious big cuts but ignore the small stuff.  If they are Ultragatorskins then they only start to be a problem when the casing is so worn that the carcass is visible. On lighter, faster tyres like Michelin Pro I try and replace them if I count more than 4 nicks.  So there is a lot of variabilities depending on the type of tyre

On tubeless, if I have a tyre that is already quite durable like a Schwalbe S1 (now rebranded as a G1 speed)  I am happy riding about with huge holes.  Nicks - like on the tubed versions are not an issue.  On the lighter tubeless tyres, I seem to be able to get away with waiting for major wear like the carcass becoming visible.  But that is on the ultralight Schwalbe Ones, not with a medium weight tyre

So I'd say that the rule of thumb is that nicks do not matter.  I suppose if you have a tyre with a nick and you meet the wrong piece of glass then your chance of a massive, unsealable hole is slightly higher.  But the type of small holes that nicks more typically allow to happen aren't a problem if you have sealant
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on April 03, 2019, 11:40:41 pm
Evening all. I've just been looking at my rear Hutchinson Fusion 5 and found at least a dozen cuts in the 1-5mm range. I've definitely had three punctures which sealed, albeit after fairly significant sealant loss and goodness knows how many others that I never noticed.

My question is, is there a point at which you consider your tyres to have been compromised by so many nicks and cuts that it is time to swap it out? Do you just keep running it, provided it holds pressure?

I would keep running it but you can give yourself some peace of mind by using some tubeless repair patches on the inside. It's a bit of a job to unmount, clean, patch, re-seat and seal them but they do the job. https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TOBARKL/barbieri-large-tubeless-repair-kit £6
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on April 08, 2019, 02:43:41 pm
Just mounted mine using an extra 2 layers of rim tape per wheel. Sealed up marvelous. OKO magic milk hi fibre sealant, panaracer gravel king sk tyres. Think the jobs a goodun
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Pedal Castro on April 08, 2019, 03:04:43 pm
I finally got around to installing tubeless tyres onto my tubeless rims but couldn't seat them with a trackpump and couldn't find any CO2 cartridges in the garage. Rather than put the other tyres back on I put latex tubes inside and added sealant, so far so good, 13 mile hilly TT,  200km DIY and a 140km cyclo on Flanders cobbles all well inside expected times. I may leave them as they are now as a long term experiment.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on April 08, 2019, 03:18:57 pm
I think the airshot is the way to go. Though my secret weapon is to mount the tyre with a tube in first, and then take the tube out so that half the tyre is already mounted making the job much easier.

This is the one I use https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/birzman-pump-up-tubeless-tire-pump-12l-220-psi-15-bar/?aid=7dcbad55a2d2bf24ffb81694d3167947&pid=10004&gclid=Cj0KCQjw4qvlBRDiARIsAHme6ovgbg2cWKMEcJ4PBqB-phfP0PTWSlzz_lajF-Q3tRUpP6uV9dDt0WMaArHLEALw_wcB&wt_mc=uk.pla.google_uk.775755312.44713492950.185511308766
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ivan on April 08, 2019, 04:01:57 pm
I second the airshot, got one (https://www.bike24.com/p2205538.html) and it has made fitting tyres a much more enjoyable experience.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on April 08, 2019, 05:40:40 pm
so far i've managed to inflate and seat the tyres with the track pump every time (valve core needs to be removed). i had a pair of wheels where the deflated tyre bead would move towards the centre well - in that case i pressed my finger over the valve after pumping the tyre up and quickly screwed the core in, not letting all of the air out. no problem so far.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Klar on April 09, 2019, 12:37:09 pm
Does anyone clean out of dried sealant regularly or just leave to get all gooey and weblike?

I've had horizons on for 18 months now and just top it up. No problems but I was wondering if anyone else has a regular clean out and tyre inspect.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: jiberjaber on April 09, 2019, 03:28:21 pm
Does anyone clean out of dried sealant regularly or just leave to get all gooey and weblike?

I've had horizons on for 18 months now and just top it up. No problems but I was wondering if anyone else has a regular clean out and tyre inspect.

Only if I am patching internally... else it just stays in there as added puncture proofing :)

I'd be happy to be getting 18 months out of my tyres  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Klar on April 09, 2019, 05:37:42 pm
Good point! I've been really happy with them. I've tried other tubeless tyres and the rear lasts three months if I'm lucky before failing.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on April 11, 2019, 09:03:32 pm
Rear tyre came unstuck from the rim 70 km into a ride today which was very annoying. Front wheel is fine. I think the one on the rear needs more rim tape to resist stresses of weight so I'm going to make do with an inner tube until I get home.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: fd3 on April 20, 2019, 11:21:08 am
Fitted Hutchinson Override 38s on Kinlin XR22Ts yesterday (Stans valves and Doc Blue).  Used an innertube overnight to get them to fit, but then went straight for inflation - no soapy water or removing the valve core - fit fine with just a track pump.  Held pressure overnight, will try them on a ride tomorrow - but so far super easy.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on May 24, 2019, 04:14:29 pm
Got some new wheels with hookless rims.

Hadn't realised but my default tyre choice isn't compatible (might work, might blow off, not wanting to take the risk). Got some Schwalbe One Pros which are said to be ok on now, and they hold air.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ben T on June 01, 2019, 04:54:30 pm
Noticed rear tyre losing air slightly faster than it should, going from about 70 to 30 psi in about 24 hours but not drastically enough to have to put a tube in, it was rideable on about 30 psi. Took it off and there was hardly any sealant left, and pumped it right up and noticed air whooshing out of a very small cut about 3mm in length - which I thought should be small enough for the sealant to seal. Topped it up with a full load of new sealant and sure enough it now holds air.
I thought I would actually be able to see really clearly on the inside of the tyre the bits where the sealant has plugged a hole, but I can't really - but the above shows me it doing its job.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on June 01, 2019, 10:24:41 pm
My rear tyre lost most of its pressure after leaving the bike in the car overnight. It wasn’t sealing around the valve and took a bit of adjustment to get right but now holding air fine. They say not to over tighten the valve but under tightening means it can get a knock when you put air in and break the seal. You have to bounce the tyre with the valve at the bottom to get it to reseal then.

Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on June 01, 2019, 10:27:52 pm
I've put another two wraps of tape on the rims (so now there's the native tape plus 4 extra wraps of planet x tubeless tape) and re-mounted tubelessly. If this doesn't work in the long run then I'm going to be very annoyed.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on June 02, 2019, 03:01:12 pm
So it did fail. However this time I think it's because of holes in the tyres which I'd sustained when running tubes. They sealed up fine when installing and during a ride to a mates birthday yesterday but came apart during a proper ride today. Very annoying but what can you do. I could try again with some tubeless repair patches but tbh just can't be arsed any more. Might try again when/if I get round to buying a nicer set of wheels and new rubber.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on June 03, 2019, 03:22:58 pm
So it did fail. However this time I think it's because of holes in the tyres which I'd sustained when running tubes. They sealed up fine when installing and during a ride to a mates birthday yesterday but came apart during a proper ride today. Very annoying but what can you do. I could try again with some tubeless repair patches but tbh just can't be arsed any more. Might try again when/if I get round to buying a nicer set of wheels and new rubber.

What sort of pressure were you running? Road tubeless suits larger tyre sizes w/lower pressures, I think.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on June 26, 2019, 02:45:35 pm
Had my first puncture on Sunday - a sharp piece of glass in the front tyre. When I pulled it out, the tyre didn't seal. Spinning it just resulted in a spray of sealant.

I put in a dynaplug and trimmed it, then inflated with CO2. This wasn't quite enough. A second dynaplug did the job.

Bit of a learning curve - but proved it could be handled. I was probably 10-20 miles from home. I need to reinflate the tyre with air and check if it's going to hold. I suspect it would be a very good idea to patch the tyre properly now, but I'm likely to swap back to the road tyres anyway.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on July 02, 2019, 09:51:22 am
Put the GP5000 on the Genesis.  I won't be running them for PBP, just want to try them out.

First impressions riding them around the block they are as expected.  Roll fast, fairly comfy for a 25mm.  It's a bit difficult to do A/B comparison with the previous tyres as they were 2bliess in 32mm.  Was running them at 90psi, probably be fine at 80 however

The GP5000 are thicker / heavier than a Pro One.  They are pretty much slick, just a "decoration" half hearted light pattern on the shoulders


I had some trouble fitting them which is worth mentioning

The wheels, as far as I remember, have only had one coating of rim tape since I started running them tubeless, maybe 2 years ago now
The front tyre went on fine.  I didn't have to use a bead jack, it went on with fingers.  The tyres are as mentioned above 25mm GP5000, the rims are Velocity Aeron.  The rims are tubeless specific and listed as istr 22mm internal width.  20mm tape fits tightly and exactly.   I some kind of problem with my pump and used CO2 to inflate, but it was straight forward

On the rear however, I had trouble.  I tried mounting it with the airshot - fail, with CO2 - fail, clean the rims more carefully - fail, use soap solution - fail
The rim tape was crinkled in a few places.  But there had been a tyre on it before that inflated just fine.  I decided to try replacing the rim tape.  I have a large reel of tape.  I pulled off the old tape, cleaned all the latex off the edges of the rim (only tiny bits)   Under the tape the internal surface of the rim was pristine.  I cleaned it finally with isopropyl and retaped with two layers.
Refitted tyre and it inflated easily with the airshot

Moral is, if the rim tape looks shite, replace it
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on July 02, 2019, 09:56:26 am
I had the same rim tape problem with my last attempt. Bunged a load more on and off we went.

One big bugvearr I have with tubeless tyres on road/cross is that they seem to be very intolerant of high pressures, in my experience. I want to be able to blow up 32s to high pressure for road surfaces and then let them down for rough stuff, but whenever I try it the seal seems to be lost either running high or low. ☹️
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: BrianI on July 02, 2019, 11:31:07 pm
First tubeless puncture tonight on the MTB. Looks like a bit of glass cut through the tyre. Sealant urinated out the hole, and tyre deflated. Was just a mile from home, so rather than mess about with a messy tyre, just walked home pushing the bike... Not too happy about the fact that the bead unseated. Tubeless compatible tyres, on a rim converted using a Stans no tubes rubber rim strip with the rim well sealed with Tessa tape...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: BrianI on July 03, 2019, 07:27:43 pm
Hmm. Found the hole in the tyre, right at the join between a tread block and the tyre carcass. Pretty deep cut. Was able to patch it with a tubeless patch on the inside, alas when inflated again, the hole opened up even wider, letting me see the patch from the outside! Suffice to say the tyre will be getting binned (at least it was just a cheap BTwin Tubeless Ready tyre) , and I'll probably forego my tubeless travels, going back to ye olde worlde normal non tubeless tyres, albeit with slime tubes...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: suffolkngood on July 07, 2019, 09:01:59 pm
I wrote an article for cycling weekly. On my website I expand further on tubeless technology. It's not brand specific but some brands that are useful solutions to problems often encountered  are mentioned.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/tubeless-tyres-properly-406530/amp

(https://i.ibb.co/pxGJzJp/tubless-flow-chart-1024x1024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pxGJzJp)

I have yet to be stranded with tubeless anxd I have fixed some big holes albeit on a temporary  basis that you could shove my thumb through comfortably. Most tyre plug repairs are for the lifd of the tyre. One thing to not not all plugs like everything tubeless are git for purpose. There is a big range in functionality in tubeless equipment which cause many of the issues tubeless user encounter.

However these failure are rare and no more common than on the tubed tyres I used to use.

Brinal read the article in cycling weekly or the expanded version on my website to find out why your tyres unseated with no air. Also carry plugs as you could have fixed the hole before it went flat.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on July 11, 2019, 11:00:04 pm
So I think I figured out how to make tubeless work:

1. Take your alexrims 'tubeless ready' wheels
2. Throw them in the bin
3. Swap them for a pair of Mavic UST ones which are beautifully taped and shaped in such a way that sealing tubeless ready tyres requires no soapy water, valve core removal, air shots, or anything. I daresay I could have managed it with my hand pump.

Shocked at how easy that was. Mavic Allroad (£225/pair), Vittoria Terreno dry (£80/pair), all done within 15 minutes.

I feel like an idiot for not having got rid of the alexrims sooner.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on July 12, 2019, 12:38:25 pm
I'm tubeless curious. :o
The aim is to get more grip and lighter weight on my 26" MTB that I'm using for 'cross. Current tyres are worn out (tubed) Continental Speed Kings.

Should I explore the world of tubeless, or just get myself some more tubes and live with the odd pinch flat? I'm not replacing the wheels - I don't know if that influences the decision.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on July 12, 2019, 01:13:14 pm
Should I explore the world of tubeless, or just get myself some more tubes and live with the odd pinch flat? I'm not replacing the wheels - I don't know if that influences the decision.

read this thread and make up your mind ;D

correct choice of wheels (rims, to be precise) is very important for hassle free tubeless setup. to complicate things, not all rims marketed as tubeless are tubeless, i.e. they don't retain the deflated tyre seated properly (which is a major fail). i'd move to 27.5 wheels as there is a much wider choice of tyres.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on July 12, 2019, 01:37:01 pm
Loads of this thread is about road, not mtb. I don't have the clearance for 27.5 on this bike, so its 26 or new (cross) bike.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on July 12, 2019, 01:58:14 pm
I suppose it depends on your terrain. I raced a 26er at beastway the other week with tubes in and there weren't any dramas but that was sloppy and muddy terrain. Going on more rocky and flinty terrain it might be more worth the while.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: vorsprung on July 12, 2019, 02:16:53 pm
I wrote an article for cycling weekly. On my website I expand further on tubeless technology. It's not brand specific but some brands that are useful solutions to problems often encountered  are mentioned.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/tubeless-tyres-properly-406530/amp

(https://i.ibb.co/pxGJzJp/tubless-flow-chart-1024x1024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pxGJzJp)

I have yet to be stranded with tubeless anxd I have fixed some big holes albeit on a temporary  basis that you could shove my thumb through comfortably. Most tyre plug repairs are for the lifd of the tyre. One thing to not not all plugs like everything tubeless are git for purpose. There is a big range in functionality in tubeless equipment which cause many of the issues tubeless user encounter.

However these failure are rare and no more common than on the tubed tyres I used to use.

Brinal read the article in cycling weekly or the expanded version on my website to find out why your tyres unseated with no air. Also carry plugs as you could have fixed the hole before it went flat.

"inject sealant through the core" doesn't work with orange seal.  It's so efficient at blocking holes that it blocks the hole in the valve :)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on July 12, 2019, 02:21:41 pm
I wrote an article for cycling weekly. On my website I expand further on tubeless technology. It's not brand specific but some brands that are useful solutions to problems often encountered  are mentioned.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/tubeless-tyres-properly-406530/amp

(https://i.ibb.co/pxGJzJp/tubless-flow-chart-1024x1024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pxGJzJp)

I have yet to be stranded with tubeless anxd I have fixed some big holes albeit on a temporary  basis that you could shove my thumb through comfortably. Most tyre plug repairs are for the lifd of the tyre. One thing to not not all plugs like everything tubeless are git for purpose. There is a big range in functionality in tubeless equipment which cause many of the issues tubeless user encounter.

However these failure are rare and no more common than on the tubed tyres I used to use.

Brinal read the article in cycling weekly or the expanded version on my website to find out why your tyres unseated with no air. Also carry plugs as you could have fixed the hole before it went flat.

"inject sealant through the core" doesn't work with orange seal.  It's so efficient at blocking holes that it blocks the hole in the valve :)

https://twitter.com/ianwalker/status/1143775430333411328

I'm going to try switching to Caffelatex as I'm not convinced by Stan's at all.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on July 12, 2019, 02:29:14 pm
Stans=ok
Orange seal= a bit better
Finish Line= might as well use water.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on July 12, 2019, 02:52:09 pm
I suppose it depends on your terrain. I raced a 26er at beastway the other week with tubes in and there weren't any dramas but that was sloppy and muddy terrain. Going on more rocky and flinty terrain it might be more worth the while.
It was really dry and either quite long grass or rocks and dust this week. Who knows how it will be next week! :)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on July 12, 2019, 03:51:39 pm
Ah you mean the Beastway summer cross races, I raced the 26er during the Beastway XC MTB series at Redbridge, which owing to its clay soil was a bit of a mud jam. Which was great for me because while everyone else's 27.5s/29ers were getting jammed up with mud around the frame, I had enough clearance to accommodate a family of well fed rats.

I will see you at the Redbridge race in a few weeks if you're sticking at the series, the Gravesend one is a bit too far away for me. I had to take this week off after scraping the skin off my left elbow and knee at Leyton Park.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on July 12, 2019, 04:35:40 pm
Sorry, I'm not at Beastway, I'm doing the Take3 cyclocross series near Abingdon. First race was yesterday - 6 more to go.
The number of times I almost washed out the front was far too high - I suspect I was running more tyre pressure than most but the rims are really narrow and the tyres aren't tubeless ready. Hence why I was wondering about changing it up for next week...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on July 12, 2019, 04:55:15 pm
Ah righto well hopefully your courses are plenty of fun. Ours are a bit up and down sometimes. The days of dedicated cross courses in the woodland seem to be over...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Bolt on July 23, 2019, 10:08:52 pm
Stans=ok
Orange seal= a bit better
Finish Line= might as well use water.
Out of curiosity I decided to try and convert a pair of old Mavic Cross Ride 26" wheels to tubeless.  My major concern was that these rims are pinned and I wasn't sure if the sealant would seal the joint exposed beyond the rim tape. I used about 60ml of Decathlon's own brand sealant which sealed the joint on the first wheel without so much as a dribble appearing under pressure, however the seal around the bead was not so good with tiny leaks around the whole circumference of the tyre.  Given that the Decathlon sealant is pretty thick, I added 30ml of Stans to the tyre and voila the bead sealed instantly

So with the first wheel holding pressure well I proceeded with the second but only using 60ml of Stans this time.  I inflated the tyre only to see a fine spray of sealant out of the rim joint with no signs of sealing it.  So I lobbed in 30ml of the thicker Decathlon sealant and sure enough it sealed the rim joint perfectly.  Not sure how well these 2 sealants will work together over time... but they smell about the same ???
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on July 24, 2019, 02:19:40 pm
rim joint should be covered by a rim tape - i.e. sealant should only be in contact with rim tape and inner tyre (and a tubeless valve)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: BrianI on July 24, 2019, 06:56:12 pm
I wrote an article for cycling weekly. On my website I expand further on tubeless technology. It's not brand specific but some brands that are useful solutions to problems often encountered  are mentioned.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/tubeless-tyres-properly-406530/amp

(https://i.ibb.co/pxGJzJp/tubless-flow-chart-1024x1024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pxGJzJp)

I have yet to be stranded with tubeless anxd I have fixed some big holes albeit on a temporary  basis that you could shove my thumb through comfortably. Most tyre plug repairs are for the lifd of the tyre. One thing to not not all plugs like everything tubeless are git for purpose. There is a big range in functionality in tubeless equipment which cause many of the issues tubeless user encounter.

However these failure are rare and no more common than on the tubed tyres I used to use.

Brinal read the article in cycling weekly or the expanded version on my website to find out why your tyres unseated with no air. Also carry plugs as you could have fixed the hole before it went flat.

An interesting article, thanks for sharing it. The wheels on my MTB are not tubeless compatible, hence me doing a conversion using tessa tape, and a Joe's no flats rubber rim strip.

I've since bought a new pair of tubeless ready tyres, Bontrager XR2 Team Issue in 29x2.2". Ive also taken a punt on a pair of Barbieri Anaconda tyre liners (look like swimming pool noodles) which should hopefully help with preventing tyre burping. I'll probably be replacing the MTB wheels next year, so I'll probably go for tubeless ready wheelset (assuming you can still get them in ye olde worlde 100mm / 135mm hub widths with standard q/r axles).

Probably going to be a few weeks till I get a chance to fit the new tyres - I'm currently recovering from abdominal surgery to fix my own inner tubes (twisted bowel not much fun!)...
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Bolt on July 25, 2019, 12:55:27 am
rim joint should be covered by a rim tape - i.e. sealant should only be in contact with rim tape and inner tyre (and a tubeless valve)

But surely the rim tape doesn't and shouldn't extend into the hook of the rim?  Yes, I guess in theory that the tyre bead should seal against the remaining exposed part of the joint but in my experiment it still left a void that Stan couldn't seal.  Good news is that both tyres held pressure overnight and survived a test ride today :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on July 25, 2019, 08:55:15 am
rim joint should be covered by a rim tape - i.e. sealant should only be in contact with rim tape and inner tyre (and a tubeless valve)

But surely the rim tape doesn't and shouldn't extend into the hook of the rim?  Yes, I guess in theory that the tyre bead should seal against the remaining exposed part of the joint but in my experiment it still left a void that Stan couldn't seal.  Good news is that both tyres held pressure overnight and survived a test ride today :thumbsup:

ideally, the tape should cover all voids which means it should be slightly wider than the inner max width of the rim (when wrapped tightly). sealant getting inside the rim is never a good idea, especially if the nipples are alloy.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on July 26, 2019, 06:36:48 pm
will be testing some new gloop from oosk. initial impression is good - the sealant looks right thickness (similar to frijj milkshake) with some finely ground rubber particles mixed in. ideally i'd go for stans race sealant, but unfortunately in cannot be injected through the valve. might take months to find out how this works (or doesn't).

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190726/c28ff73d73af8cc978af17de3ceb6673.jpg)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on July 26, 2019, 11:45:25 pm
Did a horrible cross race this week on Mavic allroads (which came with valves), shod with Vittoria Terreno dry 31mms and using OKO hi fibre magic milk from Planet X (https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WSOKOMMHF/oko-magic-milk-hi-fibre-tyre-sealant). Of 24 racers, 6 were KO'd with flats, owing to the horrendously gnarly course which was also covered in thorns. I think the combo held up very well.  Which was almost a pity as it meant I had to complete the race, which shook me so hard my bottle cage broke.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on August 02, 2019, 12:28:31 pm
Had my first experience with plugging a hole in a tubeless tyre last night at the local cross race, with a kit I got after reading Malcolm's article. I heard the dreaded pfffft and hoped the sealant would do the job, but alas. Rolled to the side shouting 'I'm out'. Picked the bike up and ran to the pits, where I'd left my bits and bobs, and shoved one of these bacon strip doohickies in with a bit of panicked effort (turns out you actually have to widen the hole a bit with the mini braddle first) https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WSVELTRK/velox-tubeless-repair-kit-with-tools .

Pumped the tyre back up and was back in the game. Got me round the rest of the race and I rode home on it. I've taken the tyre off and patched it from the inside, so it's at home clamped in a vice right now. Worked pretty well. I think if I'd been running tubed it would have been game over. Especially as on inspection this morning, there was a great big thorn stuck in the tyre which the sealant had done its job on! That's definitely me sold on tubeless now. I plan on every bike I operate on having it going forward.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on August 26, 2019, 01:31:30 pm
had a puncture during pbp, but not sure when. the tyre sealed, but lost a lot of pressure (which i did not notice while riding). only noticed at mortagne contol when i wheeled the bike off the kerb an the rear wheel did not bounce. connected the track pump which showed 20psi. checked for embedded debris, pumped it up to 85psi and finished without any further problems. wear on the sidewall indicates i've been riding with a flattish tyre for a while!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190826/4c9dc64c1c70573bd9fd7fdd04511367.jpg)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on August 26, 2019, 03:38:22 pm
I'm tubeless curious. :o
The aim is to get more grip and lighter weight on my 26" MTB that I'm using for 'cross. Current tyres are worn out (tubed) Continental Speed Kings.

Should I explore the world of tubeless, or just get myself some more tubes and live with the odd pinch flat? I'm not replacing the wheels - I don't know if that influences the decision.

Do the MTB riders have a limit on their tyre width? (I'm guessing not ... but have never needed to check ... )
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on August 26, 2019, 03:56:49 pm
They weren't doing checks or nothing at the races I was doing this summer. I saw some stonkingly large tyres.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on August 26, 2019, 06:36:16 pm
My rear tyre picked up a puncture in the quagmire at the PBP ride check, flint which did not seal. I put three Dynaplugs in then 45km back to hotel, it seemed to seal up. I got to Carhaix return (700km) before I found that the sealant had all left and it was getting soft. I pumped it up - would not seal. I had carried some Caffelatex sealant with me, but it seemed to have solidified in the pouch. Just enough had stayed liquid to put a bit in and get a seal to finish the ride, so I didn't need to put a tube in.

Anyone else experience sealant going off in the container?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: chrisbainbridge on August 27, 2019, 08:57:47 am
I suspect if the container has air in it or there has been significant contact with air then the reaction will have started.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on August 27, 2019, 09:23:31 am
I suspect if the container has air in it or there has been significant contact with air then the reaction will have started.

Sealant in a tyre has plenty air. It doesn’t go off - it will dry out though. The seal may have been broken and allowed it to dry out.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: zigzag on August 27, 2019, 10:10:52 am
i used to put 40ml of sealant into a road tyre. however, most of that gets used to line the inner tyre and rim/bead interface; there's very little left for the actual sealing of punctures. i'll be using 50-60ml from now on and be carrying a 30ml bottle just in case.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: simonp on August 27, 2019, 11:26:20 am
I've always put 60ml in. Loads comes out when I have a puncture, doesn't do anything.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on August 30, 2019, 03:23:55 pm
I'm tubeless curious. :o
The aim is to get more grip and lighter weight on my 26" MTB that I'm using for 'cross. Current tyres are worn out (tubed) Continental Speed Kings.

Should I explore the world of tubeless, or just get myself some more tubes and live with the odd pinch flat? I'm not replacing the wheels - I don't know if that influences the decision.

Do the MTB riders have a limit on their tyre width? (I'm guessing not ... but have never needed to check ... )
Fortunately not. The 33mm limit is for races under UCI regs. They also ban MTBs. ;)

This is somewhat out of date now though asI've got hold of a secondhand 'cross bike! :)
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on October 18, 2019, 08:38:26 pm
I'm thinking of scrounging a rear tubeless (rim-brake) wheel to try in the rest of this year's cross races.

Are they are any practical irritations with running this, but with a clincher on the front?

p.s. DuncanM see you at the Oxon rounds??
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Ian H on October 18, 2019, 09:04:45 pm
I have now converted the Hallett to tubeless (by taking out the tubes & adding sealant).  It all seems to work fine so far, though this is with large, low-pressure tyres.  I gather these are less problematical than high-pressures.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on October 18, 2019, 09:17:45 pm
I'm thinking of scrounging a rear tubeless (rim-brake) wheel to try in the rest of this year's cross races.

Are they are any practical irritations with running this, but with a clincher on the front?

p.s. DuncanM see you at the Oxon rounds??
not at all. I've run my bike with one tubeless one clincher a few times, usually after a massive split in a tyre. Only thing I can think of is you might want to think about which tyre should have which tyre pressure. And also that the rear one will require more frequent topping up as tubeless tyres do lose a bit of air overnight
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on November 11, 2019, 08:19:20 pm
Tubeless "Starter Kits"??

Lets say I buy a pair of "proper" tubeless wheels, + tyres (700x33mm-ish). What else do I need? Is it economical to buy one of the all-in-one kits, or are they full of 2nd-rate bits?

Assume that I have many tyre levers and a half-decent track pump, but bog-all else!


(I don't know if this is a factor, but as these will be my race wheels, I won't be putting loadsa miles on them for a while. And they may sit for 3 weeks between use. If they get converted to regular leisure use later, I'd be happy to buy more stuff. )



[p.s. thanks bludger - having failed to find a bargain, I'm on the verge of buying a new pair of "proper" tubeless wheels.]
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on November 11, 2019, 08:27:38 pm
The only other bit if gear you may like is an airshot or something similar. It can make mounting tyres tubelessly a lot easier. I have a birzman I got in a deal off planet X which works very well. Otherwise you can use a compressor like you might find in a mechanics workshop.

I didn't find I needed a 'kit' - my Mavic wheels came with valves already, already fitted with tubeless tape, so I just got some OKO hi fibre magic milk off PX which has been good sealant. A syringe can be useful but the other option is to just buy a 60ml bottle of tubeless fluid which you can top up with a big bottle.

For adding the sealant, you would ideally use a valve core tool but pliers can also be used (carefully). Most tubeless valves will come with a tool anyway.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 11, 2019, 09:36:13 pm
Use Tesa tape, rather than branded rim tape. It's way cheaper and lasts longer.

Get valves cheaply on ebay. Stans, DT Swiss are both good.

Orangeseal Extreme sealant is the best I've used.

The Stans syringe kit is good for topping up.

Soapy water for fitting, no need for anything else.

Airshot is sometimes necessary.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: mattc on November 12, 2019, 08:01:18 pm
Cheers.

(I'm definitely suffering wood-from-the-trees here. I've only just realised that the wheels I'm buying come with most of this shit ... :facepalm:
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on November 13, 2019, 12:11:05 pm
DuncanM see you at the Oxon rounds??
Probably. I rode the Newbury/Reading/Swindon races earlier in the series and then I hurt my knee. Hopefully I can ride Standlake/Dalton/Condors (maybe with my daughter in tow, though she's not been so enthusiastic this winter - it might be the mud!). I'll be at the Condor one whatever.

And my 'cross bike has regular tubes in. I have some decent tyres that aren't tubeless ready, so I'm sticking with tubes for the moment on this bike. At the last race I was doing I was aware that each time I hopped the super muddy ditch on a descent my rim hit the surface underneath, but thankfully I didn't pinch flat. I wonder if that's partly down to using 33mm tyres on sensible rims, but maybe it was pure dumb luck.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: bludger on November 13, 2019, 02:09:26 pm
I've been deliberating on whether making those pool noodle rim liners might be worth it for tubeless cross and MTB. I too have dinged rims a few times and it never feels great.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on November 13, 2019, 02:14:11 pm
The serious CX people still seem to be using tubulars. I don't know why they are preferred over tubeless.
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on November 13, 2019, 02:20:10 pm
Lower pressure without damaging rims or losing air pressure in turns (burping).
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: DuncanM on November 13, 2019, 02:35:13 pm
Lower pressure without damaging rims or losing air pressure in turns (burping).
I thought tubeless originated in MTB where they ran equally low pressures. If so, what's the difference? Lack of tubulars for MTB?
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on November 13, 2019, 02:43:41 pm
The difference is tyre width. Wider tyres at the same pressure = greater forces in the casing and the beads. Cyclocross is an unusual combination of narrow tyres and low pressures.

Also, tubular rims don’t have unsupported ‘bits’ to hold a tyre on. Those bits are easily damaged.

Mavic did 559 tubular rims back in the day but almost nobody bought them (or the matching tyres). I see that there are some silly money MTB tubular options floating around still. https://www.bike24.com/p2125291.html
Title: Re: Tubeless for Dummies
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 13, 2019, 03:40:46 pm
And as someone pointed out somewhere, fat tubes = big weight.