Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: simonp on September 16, 2015, 02:42:28 pm

Title: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 16, 2015, 02:42:28 pm
I decided that this year, after PBP, I would avoid the drop in fitness that I usually have. Firstly, I am doing Bristol Ariel's 'Learn to Row' course which is 6 weeks long two sessions a week. I'm really enjoying that.

However, I also decided I would embark on a base training programme immediately after PBP. The first 4 weeks have been quite tedious, to be honest. It's consisted of 4 endurance-zone workouts (with some form drills that do help relieve the tedium) per week, which started at 90 minutes in week 1, and peaked at 2h last week (week 3). This is week 4 and it's a recovery week so down to 4x1.5h endurance.

What I noticed in the first few weeks was the drop in HR for the same effort level - in fact the average has dropped by over 10bpm. I suspect this indicates PBP recovery rather than training.

Next week it changes up and I'm looking forwards to some variety. On Tuesday I should be doing an FTP test and that will adjust the following workouts to my current training level. Then on Thursday, there's a two hour tempo session, Saturday has a 2h15 Tempo session and Sunday a 2h15 endurance session. However as I'll be rowing on Sunday, that would be the one to drop.

Ok, so maybe I'm not looking forwards to next week after all.
 :facepalm:

I'm hoping that by starting already that by spring next year instead of having to rebuild from a low base I'll be building on top of what I've gained this year. We'll see how that goes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on September 16, 2015, 04:32:49 pm
I've decided to enjoy a Transition Phase before starting base training again.

Mostly this has involved:

1. Nursing post-PBP aches and pains.
2. Abandoning an audax due to (1).
3. Getting a cold.
4. Putting on weight.
5. Eating poorly, which has failed to help (1) and (3), and more than succeeded in helping (4).

 :thumbsup:

The rowing machine is making come-hither faces, but I'm looking the other way and playing hard to get.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 17, 2015, 01:49:21 pm
I hope your lurgy clears up soon. And the knee.

Squats last night. My legs are telling me all about it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on September 17, 2015, 03:23:49 pm
I hope your lurgy clears up soon. And the knee.

Thanks :).

I'm hoping this coming weekend will kick me into life.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 20, 2015, 08:06:42 pm
Right, the first 4 weeks are done. I skipped Thursday (sore from squats) and Saturday. But I did ride for 3 hours today, which compensates.

Fitness test coming up on Tuesday.  :sick:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on September 21, 2015, 01:35:42 pm
I'm not convinced that anyone coming in from an audax background really needs or benefits from the base period of a conventional structured plan as defined by a coach like Friel.

My base work is 10hrs/week of commuting but I don't use a heart rate monitor or a power meter.   It's just steady mileage.   In 4 weeks time I will start a programme of 3 turbo sessions a week (1 tempo, 1 set of pure threshold work and one of tempo/threshold combined), totalling circa 4hrs, and a 3-4hr tempo ride at a weekend.   All the turbo sessions will be in position on the TT bike with a TV in front of me to keep the head up.

The average tester seems to do about 6-8hrs a week of training so can often be lacking in what we term endurance.   Of all the things I've worked on in the last 2 years, endurance has taken a back seat.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on September 21, 2015, 06:08:34 pm
Interesting stuff. I read a paper the other day that reviewed the training regimes of elite athletes across a range of endurance sports, and looked at changes to the program of elite and sub elite athletes. Some interesting extracts:

- easy endurance or base work comprised around 80% of their training time in all sports
- the balance consisted of a mix of tempo/threshhold work and intervals (not all out, but event dependent)
- increasing the proportion of high intensity work led to reduced improvement over the testing periods (18 weeks to across a season) and to burn out before season end
- it takes time/years to progressively  build the base to able to train at the very high volumes used by elite athletes
- the nature and frequency of high intensity work changes between off season and when peaking for racing
- elite cyclists have very high training volumes up to 30 hour per week. Runners and others peak at about 15 hours per week, but often less. Cycling causes less muscle trauma and inflammation than running, but there is probably also a tradition and event specific requirement at work here
- amateur/recreational athletes tend to centre their training effort around threshhold/tempo intensity - this is probably psychological as they (we) don't feel we are doing enough at easy pace, but the hard work done when it should be easy means that we can't perform well in the higher intensity workouts

I suspect my running performances when young could have been improved if I'd taken it a bit easier and developed over a few years more!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 21, 2015, 10:13:03 pm
I did a lot of higher intensity training in the lead-up to PBP and though my FTP further improved over what I’d already done during the season, my fat burning was not as good as it had been after 6 weekends in a row of Audax riding. For people who have limited time to train, i.e. the likes of us, the balance may need to swing towards higher intensity workouts, but I suspect there’s a penalty.

I’ll be doing an FTP test tomorrow, will be interesting to see how it’s changed since before PBP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 22, 2015, 09:16:04 am
A rough idea of how well a cyclist is progressing is the time taken between two marker points ten miles apart at each end of a known course.
Most clubs have what’s called ‘Time trials’ on a weekly basis.

Combine these with a daily commute and a weekend hundred miler and you’ve got a half decent ‘Base training’ regime.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 24, 2015, 12:54:28 am
Didn’t do the fitness test last night as was a bit tired.

Did it tonight and realised I shouldn’t have had such a large dinner or waited a bit longer.  :sick: Managed not to actually vomit though.

My FTP estimate from that is slightly lower than pre-PBP - this is not surprising since my training has all been base endurance and no high intensity. Now onto the next phase of the training programme…

Oh and my max HR is at least 191. Which means I’m 29, right?

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2371955-8-Minute-Test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Jakob on September 24, 2015, 08:05:33 am

- amateur/recreational athletes tend to centre their training effort around threshhold/tempo intensity - this is probably psychological as they (we) don't feel we are doing enough at easy pace, but the hard work done when it should be easy means that we can't perform well in the higher intensity workouts

I think this is more because it offers best value for time spent!. HIIT can be highly effective, even when training for endurance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 24, 2015, 09:31:38 am
At some point on most Audax rides, the road inclines upwards, and is called a “hill”. This is where HIIT bears fruit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on September 24, 2015, 10:43:26 pm

- amateur/recreational athletes tend to centre their training effort around threshhold/tempo intensity - this is probably psychological as they (we) don't feel we are doing enough at easy pace, but the hard work done when it should be easy means that we can't perform well in the higher intensity workouts

I think this is more because it offers best value for time spent!. HIIT can be highly effective, even when training for endurance.

I'm not sure that's the whole case actually, but there is a difference in that it probably offers faster gains in the short term, but lower performance over a 2 or 3 year plan. Also, the lower volume of most recreational athletes may mean that a bias to more intense work is useful. Not found the research on that yet.

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 25, 2015, 12:09:38 am
It's the consistent progression thing that I'm aiming for hence going back into training straight after PBP. My FTP/kg is around 250-260W. At the start of the year it was around 220W. I'm going to aim to be at 250W in January and see if I can get to 275W by next summer in time for whatever the big event is.

From what I've seen HIIT isn't a miracle cure so I'll stick to the traditional base programme for now. I'm also doing strength training and this should improve my core strength.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 25, 2015, 05:37:49 pm
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j433/Lighthorse2/Sirchris.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Lighthorse2/media/Sirchris.jpg.html)

The question to which I never received an answer to was,,, "Why did Chris Hoy insist on performing 'one rep to failure' sets?"

I'll answer. For maximum muscle growth.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 25, 2015, 06:49:00 pm
I target the 4..6 or 5..7 rep ranges for the major muscle group lifts. I'm not sure it's ideal for endurance cycling to do such low rep ranges though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Jakob on September 28, 2015, 07:27:44 am

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)

Nope. The Tabata protocol was developed specifically with pro athletes in mind.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tabata.htm

Quote
In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

Dr. Tabata's Team found that as well as improving your aerobic and anaerobic capacity it is very effective in lowering the ratio of lean body mass to fat without compromising your muscle size.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 28, 2015, 12:21:28 pm
Ride round a cycle track. Ride easy for 1 1/2 laps and balls out for half a lap until 50 sprints are done.
Ah, takes me back.
If you’ve ever ridden a ‘Devil takes the hindmost’, you’ll know what I mean.

When was Tabata? 1996. He was a bit late to the game.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on September 29, 2015, 12:34:26 am

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)

Nope. The Tabata protocol was developed specifically with pro athletes in mind.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tabata.htm

Quote
In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

Dr. Tabata's Team found that as well as improving your aerobic and anaerobic capacity it is very effective in lowering the ratio of lean body mass to fat without compromising your muscle size.


No well trained or elite athlete is going to find an additional 14% aerobic capacity through any change in training. The results of the study comparing the two, very simplistic, protocols and getting a 9.5% improvement from simple 70% vo2 max running for 6 weeks demonstrates/confirms that the individuals included were not well trained elites.

The other key to achieving high levels of performance (apart from genetic inheritance) is time - athletes are developed over years not over 6 weeks. The issue in the most recent studies that have considered increasing the proportion of high intensity training is that athletes do not achieve the same ultimate performance and burn out after strong early season performances.

Intervals have a foundational place in training, but they leverage off the steady base work and don't replace it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on September 29, 2015, 12:38:18 am
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j433/Lighthorse2/Sirchris.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Lighthorse2/media/Sirchris.jpg.html)

The question to which I never received an answer to was,,, "Why did Chris Hoy insist on performing 'one rep to failure' sets?"

I'll answer. For maximum muscle growth.

Or just to show off?

Australian study has just confirmed that muscle quality in body builders is lower than that in athletes or even untrained men. Training for volume rather than efficiency. Athletes, generally, need to train for maximum strength and speed/responsiveness within the maximum weight they can afford to carry - therefore smaller efficient muscles are good (well illustrated by Usain the Bolt)

(http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/08/14/1226450/209066-usain-bolt.jpg)(reddit)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Jakob on September 29, 2015, 09:18:43 am
http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/11/the-advantages-of-high-intensity.html
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/05000/Effects_of_5_Weeks_of_High_Intensity_Interval.12.aspx

Plenty out there.

The reference to Hoy's maximum muscle growth, shouldn't be compared to bodybuilders, which is a completely different kettle of fish.  Bodybuilding is traditionally high rep count, where as power lifting is typically maximum 5 reps/set (depending on program). Same goes for O-lifters and you'll struggle to find anyone calling their quality of muscles for 'poor'.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 29, 2015, 09:36:42 am
What’s “Base training” anyway?

Is that some new term for ‘Fit for active service’?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 29, 2015, 09:40:40 am
http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/11/the-advantages-of-high-intensity.html
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/05000/Effects_of_5_Weeks_of_High_Intensity_Interval.12.aspx

Plenty out there.

The reference to Hoy's maximum muscle growth, shouldn't be compared to bodybuilders, which is a completely different kettle of fish.  Bodybuilding is traditionally high rep count, where as power lifting is typically maximum 5 reps/set (depending on program). Same goes for O-lifters and you'll struggle to find anyone calling their quality of muscles for 'poor'.

Thirty years ago, my trainer said to me "If you don't try the weight, you'll never lift the weight."

I replied "Do or do not. There is no 'try'."   ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on September 29, 2015, 09:55:35 pm
http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/11/the-advantages-of-high-intensity.html
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/05000/Effects_of_5_Weeks_of_High_Intensity_Interval.12.aspx

Plenty out there.

The reference to Hoy's maximum muscle growth, shouldn't be compared to bodybuilders, which is a completely different kettle of fish.  Bodybuilding is traditionally high rep count, where as power lifting is typically maximum 5 reps/set (depending on program). Same goes for O-lifters and you'll struggle to find anyone calling their quality of muscles for 'poor'.

I was being slightly facetious with Chris Hoy comment, but the point about muscle quality is serious. Maximal lifts are used from time to time by a lot of power athletes and,presumably, are understood to contribute to adaptation in a positive manner.

The football study is so flawed, or at least focused on a different group, as to have no relevance to the topic of training to achieve a high level in endurance sport. Too short, untrained individuals (age) etc. It's like asking if 5 or 6 weeks sharpening at the end of a winter of Base training has a positive impact - of course it does. However, doing exclusively the HIIT work all winter probably will leave you slower and possibly broken down.

Of course I could be wrong, but my experience is that too much quality gets quick results and then leads to colds, overtraining and underperformance. Been there and got the t shirt.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on September 30, 2015, 09:04:23 am
And there’s me thinking ‘Winter base training’ was riding to a café fifty miles away on Sunday morning, and riding home on Sunday afternoon.  ;)

“5 or 6 weeks sharpening at the end of a winter”. I thought these were ‘Reliability trials’.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bikenrrd on September 30, 2015, 12:03:47 pm

Of course I could be wrong, but my experience is that too much quality gets quick results and then leads to colds, overtraining and underperformance. Been there and got the t shirt.

Cheers

Mike

What would you recommend over winter, in terms of turbo sessions?  I'll be commuting to work (~10km a day, 4 days a week) and doing a 3 to 4 hour ride at low tempo / high endurance at the weekends.  I had planned on doing a sweet spot session (high tempo / low threshold) for an hour plus 2x20 at mid to high threshold and maybe some 20/40 sprint sessions.  Should I dial it back?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 01, 2015, 09:35:40 am

Of course I could be wrong, but my experience is that too much quality gets quick results and then leads to colds, overtraining and underperformance. Been there and got the t shirt.

Cheers

Mike

What would you recommend over winter, in terms of turbo sessions?  I'll be commuting to work (~10km a day, 4 days a week) and doing a 3 to 4 hour ride at low tempo / high endurance at the weekends.  I had planned on doing a sweet spot session (high tempo / low threshold) for an hour plus 2x20 at mid to high threshold and maybe some 20/40 sprint sessions.  Should I dial it back?

What are you training for ?

I'm targeting longer distance TTs and do something similar, but my commute is longer (2 * 13 miles).   I'll be doing 2 sweet spot sessions and a 2*20 at just over threshold session a week.   Personally, I wouldn't bother with the sprint sessions or any weights work.

Volume for the Winter will be 10hrs of commuting, 3-4hrs per week of turbo work and a 3-4hr low tempo ride on a Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bikenrrd on October 01, 2015, 11:23:43 am

What are you training for ?


10 mile TTs starting in April, and generally just riding faster.  I would like to crack 30 km/h for 3 hours pace, rather than the 25 to 27 km/h I can do at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 01, 2015, 11:32:43 am

What are you training for ?


10 mile TTs starting in April, and generally just riding faster.  I would like to crack 30 km/h for 3 hours pace, rather than the 25 to 27 km/h I can do at the moment.

Not really an area I know as much about, but TT riders who focus on 10s and 25s tend do a lot of VO2 max work to 'pull threshold from above'.   Sprint session is probably OK and I've seen sessions like 30 * 30 (30s sec sprint:30sec rest for 30 reps) or 4/5 * 5mins @ VO2 max.   I probably couldn't get through a session like that but I do like a weekly 2*20 threshold session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 01, 2015, 11:40:37 am
I was doing a variety of stuff before PBP and I did do some VO2max sessions. They're quite tough, but productive. I think you shouldn't be doing more than 1-2 sessions a week at that intensity, though.

Circuit training on Monday has really disrupted my training, I've not done any bike training since last Thursday now; I've been sore for days.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 01, 2015, 12:33:29 pm
Did a 200k for fun on Sunday.   Have spent the last couple of weeks servicing the TT bike and getting it set up on the turbo.   I did start to do core work again a few weeks ago.

I have just bought a GPS and have been monitoring how hard I work on my commute.   Seems that answer is not really hard enough.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on October 01, 2015, 12:40:36 pm
It doesn't matter how hard you work on your commute, surely- it's not part of the programme.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 01, 2015, 12:59:34 pm
It doesn't matter how hard you work on your commute, surely- it's not part of the programme.

I had always had it down as zone 2 work, but it transpires I'm not even in zone 2 very much.   It's never been included as a proper training session, but I'm thinking of just pushing a little harder each way.    Of course on the days where I do 2hours tempo on the turbo and then ride in it'll be at a lower intensity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 01, 2015, 01:21:08 pm
Outdoor rides tend to be less productive per hour than indoor rides but a 13 mile each way commute done at reasonable intensity still seems like significant volume.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 01, 2015, 02:32:05 pm
I made significant gains this year so am trying to do something similar this Winter but upping the volume and intensity, although there's a longer ramp as I need to peak later in 2016.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 01, 2015, 02:50:21 pm
Commuting becomes a bit of Fartlek.

Trying to keep up with the traffic between junctions.

DO NOT, on a commute, try to get home in less time This leads to risk-taking and maybe hospitalisation or worse.


Oh, and question.
Is HIIT 'lactic acid' or 'Phosphocreatine'?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on October 01, 2015, 03:00:07 pm
I figure that year-round riding is sufficient for me to enjoy 200/300s and to grit my teeth round 600+ brevets. More focused riding in Spring and Summer allows me to enjoy 1000/1200s, rather than just finish them.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 01, 2015, 03:10:17 pm
I was told on the TT forum that HIIT was VO2max and above.   Threshold work doesn't qualify.
   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on October 01, 2015, 04:25:35 pm
I wrote a long reply earlier, but it seems to have disappeared. Will have another go later....
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 01, 2015, 04:26:29 pm
My favourite VO2max workout that I've done is this one:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/1818-solomons

Last time I did it:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2250154-Solomons

HIIT is often much shorter intervals than this, e.g. 30s or 60s. These are 3 and 2 minute intervals at 115% FTP and 130% FTP respectively. I found I could complete this one without reducing the target intensity.

Another, which is 12x3 minutes at 120% FTP, I could not complete at the full intensity.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 02, 2015, 08:13:06 am
Yup. A 10s sprint at max speed on level ground.

Be sure though, you are fully warmed up for at least an hour at ‘evens’.

PS. The 10s sprint might be 300% FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on October 02, 2015, 08:24:57 am
Be sure though, you are fully warmed up for at least an hour at ‘evens’.

What if you can't ride an hour at 'evens' (not tried yet, even if I can, it wouldn't be a warmup!)  :facepalm:

<gets coat>
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 02, 2015, 08:44:01 am
Now I've had a closer look at the data, my commute is more Zone 2 than I thought.   I may be subconsciously trying a little harder, but I reckon of the hour I each way I'm in zone 2 about 75% of the time.   I think this is a suitable base to work from and to build more intense sessions around it.   Won't be doing anything over Zone 4 though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on October 07, 2015, 02:30:49 pm
I target the 4..6 or 5..7 rep ranges for the major muscle group lifts. I'm not sure it's ideal for endurance cycling to do such low rep ranges though.

When I was training with weights I tended to do 15x Supersets so 15 Squats, 15 Deadlifts repeat 3 times.  The weights were moderate compared with my maximum lift, but the focus was strength-endurance.  I've always found it difficult to directly correlate training to performance on the road, but my ability to put a steady power down up hill for a long period of time developed significantly when I had this sort of superset as part of my training regime.  I haven't done this sort of work for 3 or 4 years now and feel that my uphill time trialling ability is waning.  Though that might just be age combined with lack of desire to suffer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 07, 2015, 02:39:29 pm
When I started doing squats, I happened to be riding up Mudgeley Hill in Wedmore a fair bit.

Beforehand, my PR on the strava segment for the short, steep start of the climb was 57s. After, I improved to 48s without really trying. Having noticed the improvement, next time I tried harder, but messed up because I'd not realised where the segment end was (it was longer than I'd thought). I did 49s. Then 36s. Then 37s, and finally 34s.

48s would have been around 550th out of 1500-odd.

34s is 18th.

Who knows whether the squats helped, but my feeling is they've improved my ability for these short bursts of power to get up short, sharp climbs on fixed. They've also made me heavier (as has the other weight training) so it may have reduced my ability on longer climbs.


EDIT: should be up to 17th - KOM was clearly in a car.  ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 08, 2015, 10:36:43 am
I do feel I lose out uphill and into a headwind in TTs as I don't seem to have the power (torque ?) at low cadence.   I did reps of 4minute intervals with the resistance cranked on the turbo up last Winter, but they became my most hated session, so haven't planned any for this Winter.   I don't have weights or access to a gym.

I have put a bigger gear on the bike before putting it back on the turbo this Winter so I may be able to build lower rev power more in a more subtle way.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on October 08, 2015, 10:50:58 am
I'm finding the hardest part of The Plan is the spinning.
Big-Ass gears at <60RPM a piece of proverbial (HRMax-ing) piss- but then I'm happier on 73" than 69" and can leg press much more than my not-insignificant bodyweight. Maintaining 90+RPM and keeping HR 80 or 85% just isn't happening. I reckon it's the lardy legs- you try strapping a 2kg weight on each thigh and see how long you can spin them at 100RPM, Mr Coach.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 08, 2015, 11:10:36 am
I had a deload week last week and should be doing Tempo intervals tonight. But the squats on Tuesday have made my quads very sore today, so I dunno.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on October 08, 2015, 12:50:57 pm
You guys aren't helping me get started, y'know...  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 08, 2015, 12:53:30 pm
I do feel I lose out uphill and into a headwind in TTs as I don't seem to have the power (torque ?) at low cadence.   I did reps of 4minute intervals with the resistance cranked on the turbo up last Winter, but they became my most hated session, so haven't planned any for this Winter.   I don't have weights or access to a gym.

I have put a bigger gear on the bike before putting it back on the turbo this Winter so I may be able to build lower rev power more in a more subtle way.

Tip.

Lift your weight off the saddle but don't put any daylight between shorts and saddle. Start the foot movement at eight o'clock and pull the pedal round to five o'clock ( as seen from the RHS of bike ).
Consiously think about this movement, imagining you are rolling the foot around the B/B.
In trying to lift backside pressure off the saddle, an extra downward push will be be the result.

Use the hamstring and leg flexors. The glutes, quads and calfs will do their thing naturally.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on October 08, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
I'm finding the hardest part of The Plan is the spinning.
Big-Ass gears at <60RPM a piece of proverbial (HRMax-ing) piss- but then I'm happier on 73" than 69" and can leg press much more than my not-insignificant bodyweight. Maintaining 90+RPM and keeping HR 80 or 85% just isn't happening. I reckon it's the lardy legs- you try strapping a 2kg weight on each thigh and see how long you can spin them at 100RPM, Mr Coach.

Anything that adds resistance to the cycling action in training is a good thing.
Such as:-
Ankle weights.
Chainmail trousers.
Wet suit dungerees.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 08, 2015, 01:03:33 pm
You guys aren't helping me get started, y'know...  :facepalm:

2 weeks before I start properly again, including a week of holiday.   TT bike is now on the turbo again and I have bought some wireless headphones that should make the process a bit more bearable.    Not entirely looking forward to 5am sessions in a cold garage again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bikenrrd on October 08, 2015, 01:10:20 pm
My excuse is that my daughter is teething and I'm tired.  Really tired.  Maybe next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 08, 2015, 05:25:35 pm
You guys aren't helping me get started, y'know...  :facepalm:

You know how people sometimes describe a "pleasant ache" after exercise?

I don't have that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 08, 2015, 10:08:11 pm
I had a deload week last week and should be doing Tempo intervals tonight. But the squats on Tuesday have made my quads very sore today, so I dunno.

Two hour tempo session didn’t appeal. So I had a look at shorter workouts at that sort of intensity, and came across this one, which I’ve been meaning to give a go:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2415119-Bays

Those sprints were around 450-460W for 20s. What fun we had. Feel better for it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on October 09, 2015, 10:04:19 am
I'm finding the hardest part of The Plan is the spinning.
Big-Ass gears at <60RPM a piece of proverbial (HRMax-ing) piss- but then I'm happier on 73" than 69" and can leg press much more than my not-insignificant bodyweight. Maintaining 90+RPM and keeping HR 80 or 85% just isn't happening. I reckon it's the lardy legs- you try strapping a 2kg weight on each thigh and see how long you can spin them at 100RPM, Mr Coach.

Anything that adds resistance to the cycling action in training is a good thing.
Such as:-
Ankle weights.
Chainmail trousers.
Wet suit dungerees.

Panniers full of bricks?  Or just my ancient laptop and a couple of notebooks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 31, 2015, 11:14:48 pm
I did 2.5h tempo intervals this evening. Low carb day in the lead up and only drank water. Heart rate started climbing from about half way. Was tough.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on November 03, 2015, 02:47:53 pm
I did 2.5h tempo intervals this evening. Low carb day in the lead up and only drank water. Heart rate started climbing from about half way. Was tough.

Coventry to Birmingham and back.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 11, 2015, 10:58:17 am
Tried an FTP test yesterday.

Disastrous, I was well off where I was previously. Didn't complete it.

I put it down to working too long hours and not enough sleep. I'd noticed from the start my HR was 10bpm higher during the warm-up as it was at similar effort on Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 17, 2015, 10:21:49 pm
Tried FTP test again today. It went a lot better than last week. I did the 2x8 minute test. Averaged 282W in each test effort which gives an FTP estimate of 253W. 1W down on last test but given I've been working on base training and rowing that's not too bad.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on November 18, 2015, 07:20:27 am
Now try the full hour.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 19, 2015, 10:33:57 am
First 4 weeks of project 2016 have been variable.   I'm either just about to start getting this right or I need to take a step back and re-start.   Overall I think I've been trying a bit hard and had maybe lost more fitness than expected between August and the end of October.

Going on a mini-tour for a couple of days to get my head back together.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 15, 2016, 09:35:41 pm
I've nearly finished the current 6-week block. Have missed a few work-outs. Next week is meant to be an easy week to end the block and then FTP test to reassess fitness, and then start another 6-week base block.

If I've only maintained the FTP I had at the last test, that will still be a reasonable result, as it's almost at the peak I had before PBP, and possibly as much as 50W higher than this time last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on January 15, 2016, 11:30:39 pm
is there a way to gauge the intensity at which to start ftp test? i get higher output readings on the rollers (with added resistance) than on the road, so if i have ftp=245w on the road should i ride at 280w, 290w? i don't want to keep doing it many times..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 16, 2016, 12:57:20 am
Probably, it's better to start a little too easy rather than a little too hard. Work up to what you think you can sustain over the first minute or so.

Beyond that TrainerRoad recommends adjusting your pace every 5 minutes in the 20 minute test based on how it feels, I.e. split the effort into 1/4. Many people will be too conservative and have a surge in the last few minutes. This tends to result in an under estimate of true fitness.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on January 16, 2016, 08:01:54 pm
is there a way to gauge the intensity at which to start ftp test? i get higher output readings on the rollers (with added resistance) than on the road, so if i have ftp=245w on the road should i ride at 280w, 290w? i don't want to keep doing it many times..

I'd recommend doing the 3 minute test on a Wattbike and guage your FTP from there, the 3 minute test will give you a good ball park figure and it does not require any pacing - just full gas for three minutes which of course hurts - a lot. Then go back the next day and do the FTP test for real.

Pay for a day pass at your local Virgin gym (or other that has a wattbike) a lot easier to pace on a wattbike then out on the road and in doing so will give you a far more relative figure to train from. The power curve for a FTP test should be near enough straight with a 5 minute flourish at the end where you empty the tank. I cannot see this being done better on the road than in a gym TBH. And in fact I've moved all my training indoors on the Wattbike - no junk miles at all.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on January 17, 2016, 12:49:58 pm
thanks LMT and simonp - my local gym has got three wattbikes; i agree it is the most precise and standardised way to measure power output. i'll do some training on the rollers first and will do the 3min and ftp test on a wattbike early next month.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on January 17, 2016, 01:43:20 pm
If you take the 3 minute figure and plug it in here:-

http://wattbike.com/uk/heart-rate-and-power-training-zones

This will give you your training zones which includes Z4, ime this certainly feels right when training.

If you have a USB stick take this with you and plug it into the back of the machine, that way you can save your data for analysis later on. Also you can create a user profile which has your numbers already saved so it's easier to train from on the screen telling you what zone you are in rather then you having to remember.

FWIW mine was 446w and was by a fair chalk the most pain I've ever felt on a bike. And this will be re-tested at the end of the month after this current four week block of training comes to an end - can't wait. :facepalm: ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on January 18, 2016, 06:58:08 am
is there a way to gauge the intensity at which to start ftp test? i get higher output readings on the rollers (with added resistance) than on the road, so if i have ftp=245w on the road should i ride at 280w, 290w? i don't want to keep doing it many times..

Start off however you wish. If you fade and collapse, look at the recording and start the next test lower. If you still fade and collapse, start the next test a little lower. Keep doing this until you can sustain the starting output for the full 20 minute or 60 minute test.
When you can get through the whole test at a reasonably constant output, start the next test 1% higher.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 03, 2016, 08:42:17 pm
2x8 minute test just now; 259W estimated.

That's the highest self tested FTP I've recorded, and is ~40W increase on a year ago. The sweet spot base training program does seem to be working, despite some disruptions.

I don't think I really had any more to give - I had my eyes shut for the final 30s of the second 8 minute interval.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 04, 2016, 01:36:24 pm
2x8 minute test just now; 259W estimated.

That's the highest self tested FTP I've recorded, and is ~40W increase on a year ago. The sweet spot base training program does seem to be working, despite some disruptions.

I don't think I really had any more to give - I had my eyes shut for the final 30s of the second 8 minute interval.

No no no... Keep your eyes on the finish line. You might hit the timekeeper.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 04, 2016, 02:01:37 pm
Or the inside of the garage door.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 05, 2016, 12:38:41 pm
On this subject - how do people try push themselves to the end of an interval.    I've started counting down with my eyes shut and checking against the stopwatch every now and again.   Towards the end my breathing seems to be every second-ish so it works quite well.    I don't do any really short high-intensity efforts but I have some 2*20mins and 5min under/over which require a bit of concentration.

Also - has anyone else developed a dread of an upcoming session ?   I have got the point where an early morning session means an entire night barely sleeping.   I have moved my Monday and Wednesday sessions to evening, but I still spend way too much time thinking about the upcoming discomfort.    I find this a bit odd as I have pretty much never flaked or abandoned a session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on February 05, 2016, 12:53:07 pm
On this subject - how do people try push themselves to the end of an interval.    I've started counting down with my eyes shut and checking against the stopwatch every now and again.   Towards the end my breathing seems to be every second-ish so it works quite well.    I don't do any really short high-intensity efforts but I have some 2*20mins and 5min under/over which require a bit of concentration.

Also - has anyone else developed a dread of an upcoming session ?   I have got the point where an early morning session means an entire night barely sleeping.   I have moved my Monday and Wednesday sessions to evening, but I still spend way too much time thinking about the upcoming discomfort.    I find this a bit odd as I have pretty much never flaked or abandoned a session.

By knowing that the pain will end.

And no I can't say that I do dread going on the Wattbike for a sess. Are you recovering fully before training?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 05, 2016, 12:55:59 pm
36-48hrs between hard sessions.   Only riding in between is commuting which I do pretty gently.    My legs are usually fresh in time for the next session.

I'm convinced it's a mental thing - similar to staying awake all night before a long ride or a race.   You know you need to sleep which makes it worse.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 06, 2016, 12:02:10 am
I find the high intensity sessions easiest to motivate for. The endurance sessions are harder because they're boring.

Maybe you could try mixing it up a bit. Also 2x20 if at threshold doesn't seem like a base phase session and maybe less intensity and more variety would help?

Tonight for me was 4x8 minute sweet spot intervals with each one having 4 5-second sprints at up to 180% FTP. My legs felt that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 09, 2016, 08:49:12 pm
Do sweet spot base, they said. It'll be fun, they said.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3153879-keeler-needle
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 10, 2016, 10:31:07 am
I find buying a cheapo second-hander out of the local paper and going out for a couple of hours riding is more interesting and has more variety than any turbo trainer.

If its a heavy mule, the training will have 'added value'.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on February 10, 2016, 02:48:09 pm
I find buying a cheapo second-hander out of the local paper and going out for a couple of hours riding is more interesting and has more variety than any turbo trainer.

If its a heavy mule, the training will have 'added value'.

In principle that sounds like a good idea but, in practice, well designed (and followed) interval training on a turbo, can deliver better results more quickly*

*If results are what you are after of course.

I don't think anyone can argue that it's more pleasant to be out on country lanes than stuck on a Turbo Trainer watching the second hand tick ever so slowly round during a hard sprint interval.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 10, 2016, 03:00:53 pm
It'd be very hard to reproduce that workout outdoors.

Also, I'm not sure riding in the dark and wet of a January evening for 90 minutes is more pleasant than watching an episode of Dexter while spinning at a constant 90rpm and letting the software do all the thinking (as in the case of that workout - constant cadence, varying force).

Although in this case I listened to music as the workout requires quite a lot of focus. It's also a lot more time-efficient: an hour on the trainer is probably worth 90 minutes outdoors.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Giropaul on February 11, 2016, 08:44:24 am
For me; doing focussed, structured Wattbike sessions of 1 to 2 hours, means that my road rides at this time of year are when it is decent weather, and are relaxed and enjoyable.
I am fortunate that my local leisure centre has well led, structured Wattbike sessions. Doing 2 hours in a group, with a bit of banter in the recovery bits, is much easier than doing the same on your own.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 11, 2016, 09:09:31 am
It'd be very hard to reproduce that workout outdoors.

Also, I'm not sure riding in the dark and wet of a January evening for 90 minutes is more pleasant than watching an episode of Dexter while spinning at a constant 90rpm and letting the software do all the thinking (as in the case of that workout - constant cadence, varying force).

Although in this case I listened to music as the workout requires quite a lot of focus. It's also a lot more time-efficient: an hour on the trainer is probably worth 90 minutes outdoors.

 :thumbsup:

I bought the entire collection of Carry on movies, Wacky races, Captain Scarlet and Tom & Jerry.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 11, 2016, 10:02:34 am
Adding turbo work to my programme for the last 2 Winters has made a massive difference.   I live in the suburbs of Sarf London so doing an uninterrupted road workout is pretty difficult.    Once it warms up a little I drive to a TT circuit and do a few hours of tempo work on there - no traffic lights and no right hand turns.

Putting a TV in the garage with a DVD player has made a difference to the longer and duller sessions.   That said I'm going to redesign my programme for the next 10 weeks as something isn't working right for me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TigaSefi on February 11, 2016, 10:32:29 am
I find 30 mins of wattbiking and watching a tv show such as X Files new season or Supergirl a really good way of passing the time without having to worry about the slow second hand going by. I also know if I watch Big Bang Theory on E4, the advert is exactly 4 minutes and 30 seconds! I tend to Wattbike twice a week at 30 mins each at HIIT.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 12, 2016, 11:29:13 am
After all the hand-wringing of the last 10 days I commenced last nights session with a plan to bail part way through.   In the end it wasn't that bad and I was still pushing at the end.   1hr30m total with 70mins of 5min over:under.   Watched the Flying Scotsman again partly for the inspiration, but also it's the right length.

I still have the feeling that I'm doing too much volume and will drop the duration and increase the intensity for the next 10 weeks and when I start racing again in April.    Also looking forward to 2 days touring next weekend as the family are away.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on February 12, 2016, 11:48:42 am
I've been completely crap and off-program since, well, I've had my head full of moving house.

It'll be better once we've moved. After all, starting a new job in a completely new area and shacking up with your bloke are totally stress-free aren't they?

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 13, 2016, 03:23:08 pm
Since I'm racing in an 8 next weekend my mind has been focused on getting fit.

Last night I did an hour endurance. Today before breakfast 90 minutes over/under intervals. Tough one that. Tomorrow I should do another 2h+ easy ride. Probably will go out to play rather than sit in the garage.

I'll probably try to taper a bit this week, and drop the volume, and resume the programme after the race is out the way.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 13, 2016, 09:41:22 pm
I had planned for two turbo interval sessions per week to complement my three 57 mile commutes but after breaking my hand fairly soon after returning from China, I have been doing 5 sessions per week, all using the TrainerRoad software which is brilliant.

The five sessions now are normally 1x90' mostly at sweetspot, one 4x8' Seiler intervals, two lots of micro-intervals (Billat) and  an other. In theory, with 5-6 hours focused speed work I should get faster than than last year which was based purely on distance. I'll need to add in some long rides once the cast comes off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 15, 2016, 10:37:02 am
Didn't touch a bike this weekend.   Didn't realise how tired I was until I stopped.

I have revised the next 10 weeks and reduced the duration of the harder sessions.    Going touring for 2 days this weekend as the family are going away without me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 15, 2016, 10:59:41 pm
I've done 7 days in a row now. Finished the run with a workout with 27x50s at 135% FTP with 50s recoveries. Easier than I expected, though plenty of burn did happen.

A couple of days off while I'm away then a little more training before the rowing race on Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on February 17, 2016, 06:47:28 am
I've done 7 days in a row now. Finished the run with a workout with 27x50s at 135% FTP with 50s recoveries. Easier than I expected, though plenty of burn did happen.

A couple of days off while I'm away then a little more training before the rowing race on Sunday.

EASY!

Then you'll be needing to reassess your FTP.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 17, 2016, 09:21:05 am
Or (more likely, I think) I need to work more on muscle endurance to raise my FTP as a % of my VO2max.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 18, 2016, 01:06:39 pm
I'm going to try an SS conversion for my Kickr which should mean I can use it with my fixed gear bikes. This will be useful for the TT bike in particular as I need to get used to riding in position.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 18, 2016, 09:40:03 pm
I'm going to try an SS conversion for my Kickr which should mean I can use it with my fixed gear bikes. This will be useful for the TT bike in particular as I need to get used to riding in position.

I bought the Tacx oversize track nuts that space the rear end out enough to fit my elite turbo.   I have had the TT bike on the turbo all Winter to train as much as possible in the race position.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 19, 2016, 01:21:46 pm
I'm going to try an SS conversion for my Kickr which should mean I can use it with my fixed gear bikes. This will be useful for the TT bike in particular as I need to get used to riding in position.

I bought the Tacx oversize track nuts that space the rear end out enough to fit my elite turbo.   I have had the TT bike on the turbo all Winter to train as much as possible in the race position.

My frames are both 130mm OLN so spacing isn't an issue, but gearing is. Using a single speed adapter kit for a normal Shimano freehub seems to be the cheapest and simplest option.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 24, 2016, 10:24:36 am
Surely there must be an easier way!

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3265671-haeckel

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 24, 2016, 10:31:52 pm
Surely there must be an easier way!

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3265671-haeckel

This is my hardest workout, 4x8' @105% FTP, really struggled with it yesterday and failed to hit power target in last two intervals but did manage to keep HR in the >90% VO2max zone.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3259596-ak-seiler
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on February 24, 2016, 11:37:29 pm
I didn't manage through to the end of Angels today https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3273064-sufferfest-angels

I'd like to think I could have got to the end but discretion was the better part of valour. That's what I tell myself, anyhow. Then I look back and see I've always crapped out on this one. Damn.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 25, 2016, 07:54:45 am
"You don't need to stop. You want to."
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 25, 2016, 11:08:41 am
Running mate of mine sent me a good article that said you should always complete the intended duration even if you back off a bit.   Knocking around on the TT forum I've seen comments about failing to hit required wattage numbers for the 3rd interval so sacked the whole session off.   I think this is one area where power meters cause some negative motivation.   if you can't finish your planned interval at 250w then why not throttle back to 230w but still do the same duration of session ?   It's still a good workout.

On Monday evening I embarked on my usual tempo session, but I had had a much harder weekend.   For the last 20 mins I reduced the resistance by one notch as I was really starting to struggle.   I still did the required duration of 2hrs, but wasn't working quite as hard for the last 20 mins.   My HR was still in the tempo zone so this was still a valid workout and I saw the end of the dvd I was watching.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 25, 2016, 11:23:55 am
If you read the in-workout instructions in the TrainerRoad workouts they advise either reducing the intensity setting a bit or back-pedalling for a few seconds to take a short breather.

With an electronic trainer it's easier to stay on target. I've only come up short twice so far, and I just had to knock down the intensity a little to complete the session.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on February 25, 2016, 11:36:50 am
Running mate of mine sent me a good article that said you should always complete the intended duration even if you back off a bit.   

That's the one big problem with the automatic control, you can't back off :(  That's balanced against the rapid and accurate changes in cadence and power that are possible. If you drop cadence, you end up grinding out the same power, best approach is to lock in the best pedalling you can and hold to the same cadence. In the last segment of Sufferfest Angels you have the pleasure of short 105 cadence bursts over 80/90 targets, maybe if I had ignored them I could have finished.

I would possibly have switched to resistance, but as I was a messy sweaty puddle by then I couldn't have operated the touchpad on the laptop anyhow.

ETA as simonp says you CAN back off but you have to be able to control the 'puter
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 25, 2016, 11:47:37 am
I've got quite a nice setup now since buying the Wahoo fitness desk. It's a standing desk intended to be used with a bike or trainer. There's a slot around the edge to put your phone or tablet into. So I have TrainerRoad on the iPhone and Netflix on the iPad. If needed I can reach either screen to change something. I have even taken screenshots of workouts while riding and posted them to Facebook, and replied to comments while still working. During the rest intervals natch.

The TrainerRoad plans seem to be well structured which means the workouts are tough but I can complete them.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 25, 2016, 11:59:44 am
I'm still using cadence on my fixed and try to keep the same resistance level.   I keep an eye on effort using RPE and HR.   Congratulations to anyone that can absorb that much data whilst training.   I'm a bit of a luddite.

Putting a TV back in the garage has helped the longer sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 28, 2016, 06:15:14 pm
I removed the 10 speed cassette from the kickr last night and fitted a single sprocket plus spacers for the 42mm chain line. Got the fixed Audax bike on there and it seems to work. I repeated last Saturday's over unders as I didn't fancy high force work. I already did a 90 minute session at the rowing club so it was harder than last weekend, but I survived. Fixed bike fits better.

Today I did a 2h15 endurance ride session. Due to the high calorie deficit yesterday I was hungry before starting so had peanut butter on toast as well as my usual couple of coffees. That wasn't enough and 90 minutes in I had a break and got some coffee, a banana and a gel. Having eaten again, I'm still down about 1500 calories for the day so will make sure I eat well tonight.

Tomorrow is a rest day and after 5h of mostly fairly demanding training, I need it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 01, 2016, 06:41:16 am
So what gear length was your fixed set-up?

IIRC, turbos and ergometers are for power work that can't be done on the open road safely. For burning calories, riding an old hack in the rain is best.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 01, 2016, 11:04:40 am
The gearing is 47/18 on the turbo set up. The typical gearing I use on an Audax is either 47/19 or 47/18.

I'm riding the Tewekesbury 200k this weekend, so will get some outdoor riding in then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 01, 2016, 12:17:54 pm
"70 inches" to us olduns.

My fixed is 60" ( 42 x 18 on 26" wheel ). In reality, the Conti 26 x 1.125 is 24.1" diameter, which gives a 56" gear.
As a coincidence, that's the height of my Sturnal notch, and the HighBike wheel size that would be prescribed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 01, 2016, 01:43:34 pm
Been thinking about what it would take to get my FTP/kg to 4.

At my current weight, I'd need to get my FTP up from the month-ago test of 259W to 310W. That seems like a big gap.

If I got my weight back down to 72kg, then I'd need to hit 288W FTP. In principle that looks a lot more likely, but how much will losing 5kg cost me?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 01, 2016, 02:15:44 pm
The gearing is 47/18 on the turbo set up. The typical gearing I use on an Audax is either 47/19 or 47/18.

I'm riding the Tewekesbury 200k this weekend, so will get some outdoor riding in then.

I've got 48*17 on the turbo.   This has resulted in a lot of work in the 80-85RPM range over the Winter using the second resistance setting.   The aim was to increase my power at lower revs as I struggled last year into the wind and up steady drags.   I also increase the gear on my heavy commuter to 84".

I think this has put a bit of strain on me as I have aches and pains in tendons that I previously haven't struggled with.    I did last night's 2hr session on resistance setting 1, which just uses the fluid and no magnetic resistance so had a higher cadence for a lower HR.    I'm going to play with this for the next few weeks and try to spin a bit more.

I entered my first TTs (in April) yesterday so that will be the first test of the year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 01, 2016, 06:57:56 pm
I just need to share!!  since my flu in january and changing to LCHF diet I have really noticed my lack of grunt.  Endurance is coming but sprinting and anything but tempo work has been out of the question.  Tonight though 10 minute warm up on the turbo then 30 single leg squats  20 x and 10x plus 20x and 10x sliding single leg squats per legwhilst wearing my 20kg weight vest.

feels so amazing to be getting back to where i was before all this.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 01, 2016, 07:12:29 pm
Sounds like some adaptation.

I'm riding 200k this weekend, Bristol Uni 10 the weekend after that, and the following weekend is The Dean. My FTP is as high as it was just before PBP - will be interesting to see how I get on.

About to go and do a vo2max workout.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on March 02, 2016, 10:30:45 am
Anyone used one of the sufferfest videos for inspiration?
I'm using music but still it's kinda boring doing my 3 x 10 mins intervals @ at.
Thinking one of the endurance or base vids playing on a tablet while on the gym bike may help as I can alter the resistance on manual to simulate the difference in effort.

Just wondered what the consensus is regarding them?
Thanks
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on March 02, 2016, 10:34:57 am
I like the Sufferfest vids, the music, the vids, the commentary, for me it does keep boredom at bay. They're doing an app version now that gives you access to all the vids for a sub - don't know what it is like. Works best on an erg controlled trainer using Trainer Roads, IMO, as it removes the need to alter the resistance
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 02, 2016, 11:29:15 am
About to go and do a vo2max workout.

Well that was tough.

Combination of fatigue, and the fact this is the highest intensity I've had to do this work-out at (because my FTP is higher). During the second last interval I thought there was no way I'd complete the final, so I dropped the intensity to 95% during the recovery. But I recovered ok, and decided not to be beaten, so put it back to 100%, and made it.

I put Saturday's MoTD on iPlayer for most of the workout, but had some music on for the final interval after that finished. Sat down for a few minutes after my shower, and when I got up, I nearly fell over.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on March 02, 2016, 12:27:05 pm
I like the Sufferfest vids, the music, the vids, the commentary, for me it does keep boredom at bay. They're doing an app version now that gives you access to all the vids for a sub - don't know what it is like. Works best on an erg controlled trainer using Trainer Roads, IMO, as it removes the need to alter the resistance

Thanks for the reply Ham, might just dip a toe in. Agreed if Trainer Roads etc alters resistance in line with the vid to give a feeling of the workout/climbs, that would be great, not there though - yet.

Cheers
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on March 02, 2016, 12:38:16 pm
I like the Sufferfest vids, the music, the vids, the commentary, for me it does keep boredom at bay. They're doing an app version now that gives you access to all the vids for a sub - don't know what it is like. Works best on an erg controlled trainer using Trainer Roads, IMO, as it removes the need to alter the resistance

Thanks for the reply Ham, might just dip a toe in. Agreed if Trainer Roads etc alters resistance in line with the vid to give a feeling of the workout/climbs, that would be great, not there though - yet.

Cheers

If you have a controllable trainer it is there - either via the app or Trainer Roads

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 02, 2016, 01:10:34 pm
There are a number of videos out there but IMO the sufferfest ones offer the best combination of music, humour and fun.  They should especially appeal to those of us who are following the Joe Friel advice about power training and hard intervals!

They started out as pure racing videos but 2 recent ones have been done with the Col collective and feature real countryside and are again IMO less aggressive and more audax style.

You can use the videos in 4 ways:

the video plays and you pedal harder or easier on a scale from 1-10, 1 I have never seen  and 10 is death in 30 seconds. Fairly hard to gauge and reproducibility is difficult.

The video plays and you monitor your heart rate on a garmin or similar.  problem is that Heart rate lags power and so you can get to the end of a 30 second sprint and your Heart rate barely reaches the limit and then peaks 5 seconds into the rest interval

Most turbos and a computer:  using either trainerroad or the sufferfest app and an ANT+ USB stick you record your heart rate, cadence and wheel rpm.  You have your turbo set at a single specified resistance which has been tested by trainerroad, etc.  The computer can then from cadence, rpm and resistance work out virtual power.  This changes almost instantaneously and allows very accurate intervals.  You change the difficulty of the workout by altering your gears.  So for example I knew on my old trainer that recovery intervals at level 2 was small ring and next to largest cog at a cadence of 85-90.  FTP was either little ring and 14 cog  at 90 or a bit smaller at 100 cadence.  A grind at 60rpm would need big ring and so on.  Initially there is some hunting around to get the right settings.  It is ideal if you can do the hard interval in big ring and recovery in little ring without changing the cassette position as it allows you to transition from recovery to interval very fast.

There are now 5-7 turbos which will talk to the app, either trainerroad or sufferfest.  The first was the Wahoo kickr, I think the second was the Tacx Neo and now there are several more.  With these the computer tells the turbo to produce 250W.  If you pedal at the cadence specified of 90rpm this will be relatively easy (I lie).  If however you have a mid interval fail and your cadence drops to 10 then instead of producing 250W/90 power per revolution you are left producing 250/10 power per revolution which can be soul destroying!  With this system you generally leave the bike in a single gear and the turbo changes the resistance for you. 

I think people vary. I love my new tacx Neo as it is easier to let the power drop with the older system but these turbos cost an arm and a leg.  They will measure cadence as well but I found the cadence side poor and added a cadence sensor as well.

I hope this helps
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on March 02, 2016, 03:23:22 pm
@Ham Sorry I meant I'm not quite ready for a trainer, but considering one for next winter.

@Chrisbainbridge, I quite like the idea of the col collective, just looking for something to break up the boredom on the gym bike. I'd definitely try to follow the workouts albeit I would have to work out the relative settings as I go along with the inevitable HR lag as you allude to. I interpret the sclae from 1-10 as loosely being my heart rate range with 7.5 my anearobic threshold (which keeps going up and making me try even harder to maintain), correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption. As I've stated to Ham I'm looking to maybe getting a trainer for next winter as I kinda like the idea of the trainer altering the resistance to the workout. A question about this is does the app take into account your individual ftp as I'm not yet up to providing 240W for more than a few seconds, currently doing 182W for each 10 min interval with spasma of 200+W but looking to break through the 200W barrier soon.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TigaSefi on March 02, 2016, 03:37:26 pm
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 02, 2016, 03:52:11 pm
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

I don't.

Last night I wasn't getting much below 140 in the recoveries and then having to go again.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3315200-solomons

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TigaSefi on March 02, 2016, 03:54:19 pm
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

I don't.

Last night I wasn't getting much below 140 in the recoveries and then having to go again.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3315200-solomons

Not just me then. here's my results. http://hub.wattbike.com/sefi/session/78ae0b45198690946bade72b7f5ef135 Hopefully you can see that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 02, 2016, 03:57:20 pm
John, you tell the program your FTP at the beginning.  Then as you go on there is the opportunity to do a FTP test which is one of the least enjoyable things ever done on a bike!  if it has gone up the computer will then change the setting to make you suffer even more.  I think it was designed in one of Dante's deeper circles of Hell!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on March 02, 2016, 04:02:53 pm
John, you tell the program your FTP at the beginning.  Then as you go on there is the opportunity to do a FTP test which is one of the least enjoyable things ever done on a bike!  if it has gone up the computer will then change the setting to make you suffer even more.  I think it was designed in one of Dante's deeper circles of Hell!
   ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 02, 2016, 04:10:00 pm
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

I don't.

Last night I wasn't getting much below 140 in the recoveries and then having to go again.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3315200-solomons

Not just me then. here's my results. http://hub.wattbike.com/sefi/session/78ae0b45198690946bade72b7f5ef135 Hopefully you can see that.

I was supposed to be doing 103W in my recoveries. Your power is creeping up to over 150W at the end of some of the earlier recoveries. I think you probably want to be taking it easier there. The shorter intervals have less recovery time, in those you'd not expect HR to drop as much.

I saw similar in this workout; HR only dropping as low as 157 in the final recovery; and only going as high as 170 during the efforts. Heart rate takes longer than that to respond to change in effort anyway so the intervals or recoveries are ending before HR stabilises.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 03, 2016, 06:43:06 am
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

Fitness.

As time goes on and you train harder, your pulmonary and cardiovascular system will develop to :-

1/ pump blood sooner, and
2/ recover quicker.

Its a matter of CO2 in the blood and how fast the P and CV systems can shift it out of the lungs.

Give it a few years.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 08, 2016, 12:53:24 am
Tonight I bailed before the end of the final interval. Harder than the same workout last week. I think a recovery week will happen next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 08, 2016, 01:11:01 pm
Tonight I bailed before the end of the final interval. Harder than the same workout last week. I think a recovery week will happen next week.

Bet you didn't go to the toilet before your session  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 09, 2016, 09:39:16 pm
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 10, 2016, 09:22:09 am
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Definitely easier when you sit up.   If I'm really struggling towards the end of an interval I tend to sit up but keep the speed the same.

Having a wobble at the moment and not got on the turbo since Saturday, but I have entered 2 25s and a 10 for April so hope to get some motivation back.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 10, 2016, 11:00:01 am
I've got a 10 on Saturday so I'll be able to see where I am at.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 11, 2016, 10:28:17 am
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Definitely easier when you sit up.   If I'm really struggling towards the end of an interval I tend to sit up but keep the speed the same.

Having a wobble at the moment and not got on the turbo since Saturday, but I have entered 2 25s and a 10 for April so hope to get some motivation back.

Ride the WHOLE FTP test in the same riding position as you would ride a race.
If you ‘sit up’ in the last 200 yards of a 10 miler, its like opening a parachute.
 
‘Drop the laundry’ AFTER you break the beams at the top end of the strip.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 11, 2016, 10:54:59 am
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Definitely easier when you sit up.   If I'm really struggling towards the end of an interval I tend to sit up but keep the speed the same.

Having a wobble at the moment and not got on the turbo since Saturday, but I have entered 2 25s and a 10 for April so hope to get some motivation back.

Ride the WHOLE FTP test in the same riding position as you would ride a race.
If you ‘sit up’ in the last 200 yards of a 10 miler, its like opening a parachute.
 
‘Drop the laundry’ AFTER you break the beams at the top end of the strip.

http://blog.trainerroad.com/should-i-be-in-my-aero-position-during-ftp-tests/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 11, 2016, 11:27:06 am
Aha, an argument!!  ;)

In a TT you need the maximum power that gets you to the end quickest. That is done in the position set up on the bike by your fitting service.
In training mode on the turbo, you want to train the muscle bundles that are appropriate to the riding position you take on the bike in the real race.
Therefore, if any other position is taken in training on the turbo, muscle bundles are being trained that may not necessarily be used in the race, and muscle bundles that are primarily used in the race are being neglected in training.

In weightlifting, its called “Strict form” where in training, the weightlifter takes as identical as possible movement to lift the bar as would be done in competition.

Oh, we’ve all seen photos of Chris Hoy in the smiths machine shifting big weights. This is good, but Sir Chris went out on the track or sat on the ergometer and trained in his racing position.

The fundamental theory of a turbo trainer is to SIMULATE a bicycle ride. If the training is done for a TT, take the TT riding position and use your imagination as the 25 miles counts up on the distance meter.
If the FTP test is to gauge your power during a TT, also take the TT position. Any other position to get a higher FTP value is cheating yourself.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 11, 2016, 01:21:20 pm
Aha, an argument!!  ;)

In a TT you need the maximum power that gets you to the end quickest. That is done in the position set up on the bike by your fitting service.
In training mode on the turbo, you want to train the muscle bundles that are appropriate to the riding position you take on the bike in the real race.
Therefore, if any other position is taken in training on the turbo, muscle bundles are being trained that may not necessarily be used in the race, and muscle bundles that are primarily used in the race are being neglected in training.

In weightlifting, its called “Strict form” where in training, the weightlifter takes as identical as possible movement to lift the bar as would be done in competition.

Oh, we’ve all seen photos of Chris Hoy in the smiths machine shifting big weights. This is good, but Sir Chris went out on the track or sat on the ergometer and trained in his racing position.

The fundamental theory of a turbo trainer is to SIMULATE a bicycle ride. If the training is done for a TT, take the TT riding position and use your imagination as the 25 miles counts up on the distance meter.
If the FTP test is to gauge your power during a TT, also take the TT position. Any other position to get a higher FTP value is cheating yourself.

Yebbut, if I do 2 * 20 mins and sit up for the last 3 mins as I'm struggling and I do this 1 week out of a 4 week block, then I have done less than 2% out of position.   Net difference will be chuff all.   I do 2 other sessions a week (OK not this week) that total over 3hrs and all of that is in position.

I've never done an FTP test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 11, 2016, 01:28:27 pm
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 11, 2016, 01:30:42 pm
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Thought you weren't doing the Mersey Roads ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 11, 2016, 01:38:38 pm
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Thought you weren't doing the Mersey Roads ?

I wasn't going to. But I've decided as I set such an easy to beat target last year I need to do it properly this time, hence setting up the TT bike on the trainer.

I was also not going to ride the Mille Pennines.

Will ride the WCA 12h again in June and I'm also looking at what I can get to as far as 25, 50 and 100 mile events go while also riding an SR and crewing in an 8 in at least one regatta.

Something will probably have to give - possibly my sanity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 11, 2016, 01:45:26 pm
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Thought you weren't doing the Mersey Roads ?

I wasn't going to. But I've decided as I set such an easy to beat target last year I need to do it properly this time, hence setting up the TT bike on the trainer.

I was also not going to ride the Mille Pennines.

Will ride the WCA 12h again in June and I'm also looking at what I can get to as far as 25, 50 and 100 mile events go while also riding an SR and crewing in an 8 in at least one regatta.

Something will probably have to give - possibly my sanity.

Enjoy - I had a good year last year - my 2nd proper year of riding TTs, but this year is falling apart.   I might not make the Mersey unless I can get my shit together.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 11, 2016, 07:00:26 pm
I have decided to give the mersey 24 a go.  I have the TT bike built from bits sourced off eBay but properly set up and fitted.  I know I can ride for 24 hours and can do a sub 24 hour 400 on the road bike.  My age related target is 319 miles or 315.94 a week later which gives me 510km.  at 4 hours off the bike I have to average 25.52 per hour.  Less time off the bike gives me more km or a lower speed.

My club has no record for the 24 at all so I could take all age group records.  We also do not keep a tally, are non racing and do not have an awards dinner! oh well.

I will be haunting the mersey posts and must head out soon to have a look.  At the moment I have done 2 hours in tuck position and hope to increase that at the weekend.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 14, 2016, 01:06:33 pm
The whole point of setting up one’s TT bike on the turbo is to simulate a TT. Do everything one would do when riding a TT. That means STAYING in racing position right up to the finish line.

If one starts to struggle, one’s tactics were incorrect.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 14, 2016, 01:21:13 pm
The whole point of setting up one’s TT bike on the turbo is to simulate a TT. Do everything one would do when riding a TT. That means STAYING in racing position right up to the finish line.

If one starts to struggle, one’s tactics were incorrect.

Do you go round roundabouts in the TT position ?

I'm training for 50s through to 24hrs.   Sitting up for drinks, food & stretches is part of these events.

There's a difference between spending MOST of your time in position and ALL of your time in position.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 14, 2016, 02:18:22 pm
I said it was an argument. I'm psychic.

Sitting up for the brake levers and sippng is necessary, I admit, but it doesn't need specific training. ALL TRAINING should be done in the 'operational mode' according to the purpose of the bicycle.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 14, 2016, 02:33:00 pm
Outdoors in a crosswind.

Or in the case of Saturday on an undulating course where I was under-geared on the descents and quite a lot slower than in the last 10 I did last year, despite having spent more time training in TT position. Probably need to go to an >80 inch gear.

On Sunday I was training for The Dean by riding a hilly course on fixed. But I am considering riding The Dean on gears. Will probably be able to cope with the change.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 14, 2016, 03:21:42 pm
Outdoors in a crosswind.

Or in the case of Saturday on an undulating course where I was under-geared on the descents and quite a lot slower than in the last 10 I did last year, despite having spent more time training in TT position. Probably need to go to an >80 inch gear.

On Sunday I was training for The Dean by riding a hilly course on fixed. But I am considering riding The Dean on gears. Will probably be able to cope with the change.

I did my first TTs on 80", but moved up to 88" last year - it was good up to 30mph on Dual Carriageways, but a little wobbly over that.   I'm buying chainrings this year so I can use 90" or 92".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 15, 2016, 06:36:07 am
Outdoors in a crosswind.

Or in the case of Saturday on an undulating course where I was under-geared on the descents and quite a lot slower than in the last 10 I did last year, despite having spent more time training in TT position. Probably need to go to an >80 inch gear.

On Sunday I was training for The Dean by riding a hilly course on fixed. But I am considering riding The Dean on gears. Will probably be able to cope with the change.

I did my first TTs on 80", but moved up to 88" last year - it was good up to 30mph on Dual Carriageways, but a little wobbly over that.   I'm buying chainrings this year so I can use 90" or 92".

 :o  I spend most of my TT in 108". It goes up to 117 and then 128 on downhills. 30mph is 80 rpm in top, 99 rpm in 108". 400 Watts,,,  Cruzin'.  :thumbsup:

I tell lies. The 80 rpm stomping sprint in 128" is the final 300 metres of slightly downhill to the finish line,,,   ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 17, 2016, 12:38:00 pm
The base phase is done now. I'm riding The Dean this weekend so I'm having an easy-ish week this week, and probably an easy week next week, before repeating the FTP test to start the build phase.

Doing the same or similar work-out I have 5W more average power (because of the last FTP test) with 7bpm lower HR. So my next FTP test should show an increase.

Doing intervals that previously showed significant cardiac drift across the interval, I see heart rate stabilising. In fact comparing Carillon from January with Carillon 45 (slightly time-crunched version) my HR at the end of the final interval was 16bpm lower than in January for a similar work-out.

Next phase will be "sustainable power build". So some more demanding threshold and tempo work, but fewer workouts per week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 17, 2016, 01:45:50 pm
The base phase is done now. I'm riding The Dean this weekend so I'm having an easy-ish week this week, and probably an easy week next week, before repeating the FTP test to start the build phase.

Doing the same or similar work-out I have 5W more average power (because of the last FTP test) with 7bpm lower HR. So my next FTP test should show an increase.

Doing intervals that previously showed significant cardiac drift across the interval, I see heart rate stabilising. In fact comparing Carillon from January with Carillon 45 (slightly time-crunched version) my HR at the end of the final interval was 16bpm lower than in January for a similar work-out.

Next phase will be "sustainable power build". So some more demanding threshold and tempo work, but fewer workouts per week.

Was that a 'sub-maximal' RPE based test?
More Watts for less HR = increased VO2 uptake.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 17, 2016, 02:25:44 pm
i admire your discipline simonp, i have to raise my own game too! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 17, 2016, 03:15:38 pm
The base phase is done now. I'm riding The Dean this weekend so I'm having an easy-ish week this week, and probably an easy week next week, before repeating the FTP test to start the build phase.

Doing the same or similar work-out I have 5W more average power (because of the last FTP test) with 7bpm lower HR. So my next FTP test should show an increase.

Doing intervals that previously showed significant cardiac drift across the interval, I see heart rate stabilising. In fact comparing Carillon from January with Carillon 45 (slightly time-crunched version) my HR at the end of the final interval was 16bpm lower than in January for a similar work-out.

Next phase will be "sustainable power build". So some more demanding threshold and tempo work, but fewer workouts per week.

Was that a 'sub-maximal' RPE based test?
More Watts for less HR = increased VO2 uptake.  :thumbsup:

No, just a particular work-out. 'Carter' from TrainerRoad.

This morning:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3421280-carter

31st January:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3078982-carter

It's 45 minutes of endurance work. The 31st January one was the last work-out before my most recent test. NP was 170W, average HR 137

Same drill this morning, NP was 175W, average HR 130.

For the sweet-spot work, I did Carillon (1h of sweet-spot intervals) on 12th January with average HR of 150 and Max HR 176.

Last night was Carillon 45 with average HR 143 and max HR of 161.

I should be looking for +5W on FTP, at least.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 17, 2016, 04:19:00 pm
i admire your discipline simonp, i have to raise my own game too! :)

Yes, if you want to continue to be far faster than me.  :P

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 17, 2016, 10:12:56 pm
i admire your discipline simonp, i have to raise my own game too! :)

Yes, if you want to continue to be far faster than me.  :P

i don't have this particular objective, but i want to do well (i.e. my best) in the 24hr tt
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 17, 2016, 10:44:55 pm
i admire your discipline simonp, i have to raise my own game too! :)

Yes, if you want to continue to be far faster than me.  :P

i don't have this particular objective, but i want to do well (i.e. my best) in the 24hr tt

Yes, good luck!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on March 17, 2016, 11:09:54 pm
Anyone used one of the sufferfest videos for inspiration?
I'm using music but still it's kinda boring doing my 3 x 10 mins intervals @ at.
Thinking one of the endurance or base vids playing on a tablet while on the gym bike may help as I can alter the resistance on manual to simulate the difference in effort.

Just wondered what the consensus is regarding them?
Thanks

John, I use Sufferfest quite a lot. At home I have a smart trainer (BKool) which is controlled by either the Sufferfest App, or by TrainerRoads on the computer with Sufferfest running within TR (or I just use Zwift). As I spend a great deal of time away from home, I use gym bikes more than I use my trainer, and on those I use simple RPE and vary the resistance to get the right RPE for the video, which I play using the app. As I know my FTP, the app will tell me what power I should be aiming for in each interval, and most gym bikes will give a power readout. Some aren't very accurate, but it doesn't take long to adjust your effort and derive a correction factor to make it about right, based on feel. They are a great way to make intervals fun, and help you get more out of indoor training than you otherwise might. The semi-pros above may be working on the bleeding edge of their capabilities; I don't, but I'm getting better than I was last year or the year before. I won't be troubling the leaderboard in the club TTs, but I'll at least know I'm giving it a good effort!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on March 18, 2016, 07:45:55 am
Thanks for that Tim,

I now have sufferfest's Blender video which I have used once recently on the gym bike playing on my android tablet and also using my rpe relating it to the load readout on the bike. First impressions are great as it gives the mind something to concentrate on and the video keeps you motivated by changing power and cadence etc. So far it's made my first use a better workout as a result. Looking forward to more of the same and maybe trying the android app when it's available.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 18, 2016, 07:49:35 am
What does that methodology class as ‘Endurance’? Is it referring to a five hour roadrace?

On this website, ‘Endurance’ means AT LEAST a 10 hour 200 km ride. This is completed at approx. 100 W Average with 130 W ‘steady riding’ and occasional excursions to 320 W uphill.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 18, 2016, 07:55:09 am
What’s to be remembered is the aerodynamics of the bicycle change the kCals/mile ( workload ) for the rider.
On a Turbo, this is usually fixed, or adjustable by tweaking the machine’s magnetic or fluid brake module.

For any meaningful workout to simulate a specific type of event, the machine’s brake module should be adjusted to simulate the aerodynamics of the bike for the event.

Mine is 30 kCals/mile for my Audaxy bike, 20 kCals/mile for my TT bike and 45 kCals/mile for my commute lugger.
This is based on flat road, 16 Deg C and still air.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 18, 2016, 09:32:52 am
2 * 90min tempo workouts this week - Mon & Thu - and a 5hr ride planned for Sunday morning.

Last few weeks have hopefully been a blip.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 18, 2016, 10:05:25 am
What does that methodology class as ‘Endurance’? Is it referring to a five hour roadrace?

On this website, ‘Endurance’ means AT LEAST a 10 hour 200 km ride. This is completed at approx. 100 W Average with 130 W ‘steady riding’ and occasional excursions to 320 W uphill.

It's based on the power training zones used by the likes of Coggan, Friel etc. In this context, endurance is something like 55-75% FTP. The definition of the zone therefore varies according to the training state of the rider. A typical duration in this zone according to Coggan would be 2-5 hours but may be longer or shorter.

For me, the endurance zone would be 142-195W based on my last FTP test. 100W is active recovery. I would expect to be able to average 150W+ on a 200k ride, and my NP for the 109km ride on Saturday was 183W, also in the endurance zone, but with excursions as high as 800W on short hills.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on March 18, 2016, 10:46:31 am
What does that methodology class as ‘Endurance’? Is it referring to a five hour roadrace?

On this website, ‘Endurance’ means AT LEAST a 10 hour 200 km ride. This is completed at approx. 100 W Average with 130 W ‘steady riding’ and occasional excursions to 320 W uphill.


Bollox. It might on the Audax board, but this is The Knowledge and it applies to all and any type of cycling. Just because you're an endurance magi does not mean others are aiming for the same thing. For most of us, an endurance ride is anything over an hour (which covers any TT that normal people are likely to be interested in!). It's a bonus if we can stand up and/or hold a conversation afterwards. And that is a perfectly reasonable state of play. Audax, Racing and long-distance TT-relevant boards and forums are available for those who are specifically looking for advice on those pursuits.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bikenrrd on March 18, 2016, 10:55:13 am
Team pursuit is an endurance event. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 18, 2016, 11:24:14 am
I hope you’re joking.  ;)

IIRC, an ‘Endurance event’ is any activity which completely depletes the natural storage of glycogen in the body and then continues.
To maintain activity, nutrition needs to be ingested.

Some folks on this website have stated they go out for a 100km ‘fasted’, and don’t bother stopping for food. For them, 100km is not ‘endurance’.

I ride 25 milers ‘fasted’, using most of my glycogen stores in the event. For me, that’s not ‘endurance’.

The threshold for ‘endurance’ for each individual depends on their level of fitness and pulmonary efficiency, ie VO2 uptake.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on March 18, 2016, 11:36:26 am
An endurance ride is anything that goes on long enough to stop you getting a normal meal or hitting opening time at the pub. So there.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 18, 2016, 11:39:03 am
I'm no good at any time trial that lasts less than 4hrs.   It takes me that long to warm up.

By Tim's definition I am not normal.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on March 18, 2016, 11:40:27 am
Yep, I'd go with that!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on March 23, 2016, 06:35:30 pm
Time to give up your bedtime cookies?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26741119
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 23, 2016, 06:43:05 pm
Makes sense: if you ate well before bed, you're less likely to be in a genuinely 'fasted' state in the morning. My late night snack is usually greek yoghurt and berries with nuts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on March 23, 2016, 08:09:38 pm
Train low strategies (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CQgTSBt4MJU/VuGxw5I12XI/AAAAAAAACMo/2TK7xbOGQ6Ymg_q3_vF9GLv0LWLCqa8EQ/s1600/train-low-morton.png)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 24, 2016, 06:32:53 am
"Fasted" = "Nil by mouth 24hrs".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 29, 2016, 02:58:44 pm
FTP and fat burning test at bw cycling in Bristol today.

FTP 280-300W.

Peak fat burning 66%.

Both are PRs. Well pleased with the results of the sweet spot base training plan. Particularly the fat burning number is better than I'd feared.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on March 29, 2016, 05:18:58 pm
FTP and fat burning test at bw cycling in Bristol today.

FTP 280-300W.

Peak fat burning 66%.

Both are PRs. Well pleased with the results of the sweet spot base training plan. Particularly the fat burning number is better than I'd feared.

I assume that peak cat burning was measured via respiratory exchange ratio,  but 66% of what?

What were your numbers before the base training plan?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 29, 2016, 06:59:37 pm
FTP and fat burning test at bw cycling in Bristol today.

FTP 280-300W.

Peak fat burning 66%.

Both are PRs. Well pleased with the results of the sweet spot base training plan. Particularly the fat burning number is better than I'd feared.

I assume that peak cat burning was measured via respiratory exchange ratio,  but 66% of what?

What were your numbers before the base training plan?

I did FTP tests at home using TrainerRoad which were low-mid 250s FTP after PBP. Tested again, mid-plan early February, 259W FTP. The intensity and volume stepped up after that, and recently the work-outs based on that FTP have seemed pretty easy. I wasn't making so much progress until I switched from "Traditional Base" to "Sweet-Spot Base".

As for the fat-burning, it's % of total calories burned. In absolute terms, it tends to follow a hyperbolic curve, with the peak typically around 50% VO2max. YMMV. This seemed to bear out for me today.

I've done this test 3 times last year; Feb 220W, peak fat 25%. April 240W, peak fat 55%. August, 260W, peak fat 35% (disappointing fat burning just before PBP).

What is interesting is that the indoor training programme is getting better results both on FTP and fat-burning than doing lots of long steady distance (feb-april last year I did 6 weekends in a row of Audax events ranging from 200-400km). Another factor, probably, is consistency of training. After PBP I started training on the following Sunday having finished the ride on Wednesday evening. Though there have been missed workouts, and the odd week with little to no training, I've been pretty dedicated over the winter, to the extent that I trained on Christmas Day and Boxing Day.

In the past, the tests done in TrainerRoad and done at BW Cycling have been fairly consistent, so I'll put 280W into TR as my FTP value and see how the work-outs pan out. If 280 is in line, then despite being heavier than in August, this is also a PB for FTP/kg (since I've been testing anyway).



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on March 29, 2016, 09:27:25 pm

I've done this test 3 times last year; Feb 220W, peak fat 25%. April 240W, peak fat 55%. August, 260W, peak fat 35% (disappointing fat burning just before PBP).


This doesn't make any sense to me. I would have expected it to be all very similar if it is the peak value % of calories produced by fat burning for different exercise intensities, as in general the lower the intensity the greater the % fat burning. I was expecting a % of HRmax, anaerobic threshold HR or FTP, etc. for when the body switches from predominately fat burning to carbs.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 29, 2016, 10:04:37 pm
It's not a switch. But that was around 60%?FTP
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 29, 2016, 10:15:08 pm
In a rest interval now. Fat burning as an absolute climbs then is flattish until approaching FTP. At lower intensities it dominates.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 29, 2016, 10:15:33 pm
Unless untrained!

Edit: my peak fat burning % was only 25% in Feb last year.  HFLC advocates have cited such poor results as requiring a high fat diet to rectify.

However I took it to mean I needed to train more and smarter. Last year's solution was high volume low intensity. It got me to 55% fat burning in 2 months. And to 240W FTP in that time.

This year I've changed tack and done less volume with more intensity. My FTP improvement is not a surprise though it's more than I'd hoped for. The fat burning being better is a surprise. However the difference between trained and untrained endurance athletes is mostly increased fat burning capacity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 30, 2016, 01:01:44 pm
The differences between untrained and trained endurance athletes are :-
a/ The trained athlete has a higher VO2 uptake value.
b/ The trained athlete has developed a more extensive vascular system.
c/ The trained athlete has developed the slow twitch fibres in preference to the fast twitch fibres.

( An untrained person has enough fast twitch fibres to phosphocreatine tear the arm off someone trying to kidnap their baby. )

I would like to know the determination test techniques to assess fat burning percentages. Is it by blood sampling?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on March 30, 2016, 01:23:27 pm
I would like to know the determination test techniques to assess fat burning percentages. Is it by blood sampling?

The only way I know is to measure the respiratory exchange ratio, I.e. compare the amount of oxygen used to CO2 produced, quite easily done during a VO2max test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 30, 2016, 01:25:45 pm
Respiratory Quotient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient

The ratio of CO2 exhaled to oxygen inhaled varies according to the fat/carbohydrate mix.

Carbohydrate molecules have a higher oxygen content, and thus require less oxygen to metabolise, hence proportionally more CO2 is exhaled. Functional threshold was also estimated from this quotient (once RQ raised to 1.0, that was threshold). RQ can go above 1.0 when above threshold, AIUI.

What the testing I've done showed was that absolute rates of fat burning are substantially higher now than a year ago, right across the range of intensities below threshold. In absolute terms, in Feb 2015 at 140W, I was under 3kcal/min of fat, with around 9kcal/min total energy, so I had to find 6kcal/min of carbohydrate. That's 90g of carbohydrate per hour, which is more than can typically be ingested. Hence, it's unsustainable.

Now, according to the latest test, the ratios are reversed; I've not yet received the detailed numbers, but from what I saw, I'm burning over 6kcal/min of fat, and 3kcal/min of carboydrate, at that intensity. That is very sustainable, only requiring 45g/hour of carbohydrate, which is well within typical absorption limits.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on March 31, 2016, 07:09:31 am
How much of the oxygen content of CHO and inhaled O2 goes to the manufacture of water?

What is described is a ‘quick’ method of assessing fat vs carb usage during exercise. The REAL method is to ride regularly for some months, recording how much carbs one needs to ingest, fat % lost and how one feels after one’s regular 100 mile training route.

After several months, not only will the person know how much carb to ingest before the event, how much fat% they are predicted to lose; but also how well they climb hills, cruise and sprint.

In addition, lots of beautiful countryside can be seen during the ‘base training’.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on April 01, 2016, 11:41:51 am
started a gym membership today, going to use their wattbikes to track progress during the next few months as well as be doing spinning classes couple of times a week. with commuting and audaxing added to that it should get me in shape for the 24hr.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 12, 2016, 10:39:17 pm
Feeling very fatigued after VoTR and Yr Elenydd on consecutive weekends.

But if I don't have a half decent base now, I never will. Compared to 3rd March, on the same work-out, my power is +7W and my average HR -7bpm, with a very much flatter heart rate curve. In fact my HR barely responded to the mild variation in intensity in the workout.

This week will only be light training to clear the fatigue whilst maintaining the aerobic conditioning and then pick it up once I feel fresh again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on April 13, 2016, 09:54:14 am
This week will only be light training to clear the fatigue whilst maintaining the aerobic conditioning and then pick it up once I feel fresh again.

Measure your aerobic decoupling factor. Testing it is a nice easy workout, and it'll give more feedback on your aerobic fitness:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on April 18, 2016, 12:20:23 pm
i did the mmp test on a wattbike yesterday and it indicates the ftp of 308w (and 4.6w/kg). i will go an reassess this by doing a 20min test at 325w and see if i can sustain it. oh, the pain!..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 18, 2016, 12:27:00 pm
These numbers make more sense!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on April 18, 2016, 01:18:52 pm
This week will only be light training to clear the fatigue whilst maintaining the aerobic conditioning and then pick it up once I feel fresh again.

Measure your aerobic decoupling factor. Testing it is a nice easy workout, and it'll give more feedback on your aerobic fitness:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling

I noticed that this is a metric on GC when I tried it at the weekend  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 18, 2016, 02:44:39 pm
The workout I did which prompted this subthread has an aerobic decoupling of -4.5%.

Only an hour long, mind. But basically my HR dropped during the workout relative to power.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on April 19, 2016, 12:05:55 pm
The workout I did which prompted this subthread has an aerobic decoupling of -4.5%.

Only an hour long, mind. But basically my HR dropped during the workout relative to power.

Did you start cold?

If you did, there's no surprise your HR dropped for a uniform power production.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 19, 2016, 12:33:23 pm
The workout I did which prompted this subthread has an aerobic decoupling of -4.5%.

Only an hour long, mind. But basically my HR dropped during the workout relative to power.

Did you start cold?

If you did, there's no surprise your HR dropped for a uniform power production.

In September, it wasn't the case, and a similar work-out had a +5% decoupling.

In February, it was 3.1%.

It's very unlikely that I will ever do a 4h AeT test on the trainer, to be honest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on April 26, 2016, 12:39:36 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 26, 2016, 12:47:25 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

I was doing 2*20 with 5 mins rest but found the second one very hard.

I then moved to Friel's 4*10 with 2 mins rest and found it mentally easier*

I'm currently in 2 minds about the Mersey Roads - go on the understanding that I may not achieve my best or pass this year and have a go next year.....


Rob

*although I bailed on the 4th interval last night as my HR was way too high at the end of the 3rd interval.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on April 26, 2016, 12:59:05 pm
<...>
I'm currently in 2 minds about the Mersey Roads - go on the understanding that I may not achieve my best or pass this year and have a go next year.....

there is still time to prepare and sometimes i find myself in the flow (very rarely though!) despite the lack of preparation. your experience alone is worth a fair few miles!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on April 26, 2016, 01:12:29 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

Following on from what Rob mentioned, don't cut short the interval. Turn it into 4*10 or 8*5 if need be. Extend the rest period if necessary but finish what you intended to do with respect the time spent in each zone.

IME I found this psychologically better knowing that you had completed the session and had created a benchmark.

It's training, it ain't supposed to be easy! ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 26, 2016, 02:20:44 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

Following on from what Rob mentioned, don't cut short the interval. Turn it into 4*10 or 8*5 if need be. Extend the rest period if necessary but finish what you intended to do with respect the time spent in each zone.


Agreed - and this is something I have said elsewhere, but there was something horribly wrong last night in that I thought I might re-decorate the garage floor.   This was a session that I did twice last week, completing (sort of) happily each time.    I struggled to get through the 3rd interval last night, feeling worse then I had done in the last 5mins of each session last week.   Occasionally it's better to back off with a view to not compromising the quality of the rest of the weeks sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on April 26, 2016, 03:10:36 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins -

I started using Wattbikes once a week at our new bike shop.

They use British Cycling training plans and I definitely feel the benefits.

The main thing I notice when using Wattbikes is how superhuman the Pros are.  If you've never used power to train then you probably won't know what 475Watts feels like at 100 rpm.  I do*, and it's what Bradley Wiggins did for 55 minutes when he won the TT Worlds.  It's basically impossible.

*I am somewhere short of maintaining those numbers for 55 minutes.**

** About 54 minutes and 30 seconds short.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 26, 2016, 04:24:31 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

The FTP test estimates your anaerobic threshold. However, most people will fall short for muscular endurance and thus cannot just go do a 2x20 at this level straight away. For example in the plan I'm on, the next 3 weeks have over-unders, they start off with 3x6 minutes, then they do 4x9 minutes, then 3x12. The total time around threshold is constant but the duration of the intervals increases each week. Then after a recovery week it switches to just below threshold, with 5x10, then 4x12, then 3x15. Note the slight drop in total duration at threshold as the intervals get longer.

Start off with shorter intervals and work your way up to 2x20 as suggested by others. Extend the recoveries if necessary. Attempting these type of workouts without moving air is unlikely to go well. I have an 18" floor standing fan which is working well for me.

This kind of training also relies on your aerobic base fitness to be good. For something like your Mersey Roads aerobic base is going to be very important. Hence your training week must include long, steady work as well. I was advised to spend 80% in this way, but I'm doing more variety. Of course, riding the Brevet Cymru this weekend will result in a lot of endurance zone work!



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on April 26, 2016, 09:06:15 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins -

I started using Wattbikes once a week at our new bike shop.

They use British Cycling training plans and I definitely feel the benefits.

The main thing I notice when using Wattbikes is how superhuman the Pros are.  If you've never used power to train then you probably won't know what 475Watts feels like at 100 rpm.  I do*, and it's what Bradley Wiggins did for 55 minutes when he won the TT Worlds.  It's basically impossible.

*I am somewhere short of maintaining those numbers for 55 minutes.**

** About 54 minutes and 30 seconds short.

I think watts/kilo is a better comparison if you want like for like. Wiggo's power for the hour was 458 watts, bearing in mind this is only 8 watts less than my three minute effort the mind does boggle. However if you take his weight at the time, which IIRC was around the 75kg mark, gives a w/kg of 6 and a bit which is about right.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on April 26, 2016, 09:11:41 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

The FTP test estimates your anaerobic threshold. However, most people will fall short for muscular endurance and thus cannot just go do a 2x20 at this level straight away. For example in the plan I'm on, the next 3 weeks have over-unders, they start off with 3x6 minutes, then they do 4x9 minutes, then 3x12. The total time around threshold is constant but the duration of the intervals increases each week. Then after a recovery week it switches to just below threshold, with 5x10, then 4x12, then 3x15. Note the slight drop in total duration at threshold as the intervals get longer.

Start off with shorter intervals and work your way up to 2x20 as suggested by others. Extend the recoveries if necessary. Attempting these type of workouts without moving air is unlikely to go well. I have an 18" floor standing fan which is working well for me.

This kind of training also relies on your aerobic base fitness to be good. For something like your Mersey Roads aerobic base is going to be very important. Hence your training week must include long, steady work as well. I was advised to spend 80% in this way, but I'm doing more variety. Of course, riding the Brevet Cymru this weekend will result in a lot of endurance zone work!

Sound advice, Friel recommends (out of 20 weeks) the first 12 weeks spent purely on base work and technique. For me, this was tempo, aerobic endurance, high cadence work and the odd sweet spot session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on April 26, 2016, 09:21:47 pm
thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 27, 2016, 03:08:12 am
w/kg isn't the be and end all. For a flat TT course it's more about w/CdA.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on April 27, 2016, 08:55:09 am
Target for a twice weekly CT20 ( 20 min FTP test ) is 1% better than last time. As weeks go by, remember 1% becomes a larger absolute value.

The process takes a long time. The only “Quick win” is to sell your soul to the Devil.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on April 27, 2016, 08:57:53 am
I think watts/kilo is a better comparison if you want like for like. Wiggo's power for the hour was 458 watts, bearing in mind this is only 8 watts less than my three minute effort the mind does boggle. However if you take his weight at the time, which IIRC was around the 75kg mark, gives a w/kg of 6 and a bit which is about right.

When I compare Watts/Kilo it just makes matters worse.

Heart-rate was noticeably down today (confirming my suspicions that I feel a bit ill). I'm going to give it a miss for a week now, then go back for a MMP (3 minute test) in about 10 days. It's the longest 3 minutes of my life but I'm confident I'll see measurable improvements after my first 10 sessions.

I've already set some Strava PBs that I set in July before PBP (when I was as fit as I can ever remember).  Since I don't use a power-meter those PBs are anecdotal (wind direction, temperature, ..other variables).  Still, I really wasn't expecting a PB at this time of the year, especially over an 11 minute segment.  I definitely noticed the top of the hills appearing before I ran out of breath.  I've done the same segment twice a week for a couple of years so I have a very solid baseline for my times.

I'll check it wasn't a Strava malfunction when I'm feeling recovered.

I've trained on my own turbo and in Spin classes but the Wattbike sessions have made me dig deeper than anything I've done before.  There's just no hiding.  If you aren't in Zone 4 at 95rpm then the whole class knows it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 27, 2016, 09:05:24 am
thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

The rider at the pointy end of the BBAR - Adam Topham - for the last few years has moved to a plan with pretty much all tempo and all done on the turbo.   He's done 300+ miles in a 12hr so seems to work.   Other successful 24hr riders have been known to do a load of HIIT as well.   Ultra racers seem to do an awful lot of base work.   

I'm trying to do 3-4hrs tempo each weekend on the TT bike in position, but will up that in the coming weeks and reduce my turbo work.   Comfort in position is vital - the 2nd 12hrs of my last, and only, 24hr were ruined by back, hip and later neck issues.   I do believe in the longer events that it's not necessarily the rider with the highest ftp that wins - it's the one that can feed, hydrate, stay aero and not stop.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on April 27, 2016, 11:25:41 am
Target for a twice weekly CT20 ( 20 min FTP test ) is 1% better than last time. As weeks go by, remember 1% becomes a larger absolute value.

The process takes a long time. The only “Quick win” is to sell your soul to the Devil.

Are you suggesting a FTP test is done twice per week?

With respect fuck that, the recovery alone is not worth it and I'd rather be doing something more constructive. At the beginning of a 4 week block of training after you've tapered for a week (following on from a three week block of training) - for sure, so you can readjust your zones and see how are you getting on, but not every week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 27, 2016, 11:31:06 am
+1 to LMT's last post.

You can gauge your improvement by how the workouts feel. An accurate FTP test is hard, and you need to be fresh, doing it twice weekly would be insane.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on April 27, 2016, 11:58:36 am
+1 to LMT's last post.

You can gauge your improvement by how the workouts feel. An accurate FTP test is hard, and you need to be fresh, doing it twice weekly would be insane.

Not to mention, pointless.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 02, 2016, 11:10:23 pm
So an interesting couple of days after DNSing the Brevet Cymru as I felt too tired. Saturday off then I tried a TrainerRoad workout which I thought might be too hard - Leconte - it was. I did 2 of the 3 sets so it basically became Prater. Which is 2x20 over unders with a short break in the middle of each 20. Because I stopped early I did 30 mins easy immediately afterwards. Then last night I did Bays which is an hour near the top of the endurance zone with 4 x 20s sprints thrown in to make it interesting. Sore legs.

Today I wanted to do some vo2max work so I picked Solomons which I've not tried since increasing my FTP to 280. Tough, very tough. I had to turn it down by 5% half way through. Despite that I did a PR for 2 minute power later on in the workout and it's the highest 90 minute NP I've achieved. The last three 2-minute intervals were tough with the burning extending down from my quads through my knees into my lower legs. Ow, ow, ow. Now knackered.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on May 03, 2016, 12:04:34 pm
Turbo sessions last week did not go at all to plan.   Not having a power meter I have been using speed/cadence assuming that my body weight pressing down on the turbo would give me the same level of resistance.   Turns out this probably isn't the case and I'm now going to test run down when I put the turbo back together at the end of a weekend.

Did 6hrs on the TT bike on a circuit of Romney Marsh on Saturday.   I was able to hold 20mph+ average but had a few back/neck niggles so back to the osteopath on Saturday.   I would have done an extra hour but got soaked in a sleety thunderstorm so flaked when I passed the car.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 06, 2016, 01:12:42 pm
thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.

Looking at the typical structure for high-volume in TrainerRoad, high volume training is typically around 8h per week with around 400 TSS per week. Typically it will be something like for 5 days,

Monday - rest.
Tuesday - intervals, e.g. threshold work.
Wednesday - tempo or endurance.
Thursday - intervals again.
Friday - rest.
Saturday - longer intervals session (e.g. 90 minutes)
Sunday - long endurance session (3h or more)

If you could devote more time, then for an ultra endurance racer, either replacing threshold work with a longer endurance session might be an option, or adding extra "TSS accumulation" endurance rides in. It depends on how much training volume you can handle. If training 6 days a week then Friday can be used for additional endurance work.

Within the mesocycle, you re-test FTP every 4-6 weeks, and every 4-6 weeks is also a recovery week. The mesocycle contains the base/build/speciality structure that I've been using. So I did base (hence this thread) starting the week after PBP, with no real break (but I have had the odd week off) then switched to build last month, but that's truncated by the fact my A event is the Mille Pennines, so I'm now doing the speciality (Century) plan from TrainerRoad which should take me right up to the event including a taper. As the event is clearly more than a century, I will add in more endurance work most likely (as well as riding a 600k which will require a recovery week).

I had a very easy week last week due to Real Life and I also have to fit around rowing club training sessions, which in theory could be 4 per week, so I often have to adjust the plan accordingly. I should've done a VO2max intervals session yesterday but was tired so skipped it. I might do it after work today, as I had a good night's sleep for the first time in a few days.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 08, 2016, 12:49:33 am
This week I fell asleep at my desk at work at 6pm on Thursday so no rowing erg session or cycling training on Thursday. I felt fine on Friday, worked from home which saves some energy, and did a HIIT workout on Friday evening. Today I did a rowing water session in the morning and a slightly shorter, but arguably in some ways harder than planned cycling workout (Prater). I previously failed to complete the final block of this on target with FTP set to 280W but got through it tonight.

I think it felt harder than the HIIT workout despite having a lower normalised power for the hour (incidentally - this was a personal best for 60 minute average power). What that indicates, I suspect, is that where I still lack is muscular endurance. But it's clearly improving. However not enough to consider bumping my FTP up - comparing the workout I did at 255W FTP setting, my HR was a lot higher (peaking at 189bpm at the end of the final set). I'd say it was touch and go as to whether I got through it. Back in early March I peaked at 169 - probably suggesting my true FTP at the time was higher than 255W.

If I ever get comfortable with this workout at 280W then I should be retesting.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on May 13, 2016, 11:27:42 am
Last two turbo sessions have revealed the ugly truth - 16% aerobic decoupling. And that, my friends, is one of the reasons I'm a helper at the Bryan Chapman this weekend, and not a rider.

I'm SO (aerobically) unfit  :facepalm:.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 13, 2016, 11:43:52 am
I did a 2h workout on TrainerRoad on Sunday which was endurance (but not constant - it went as high as 210W which is near the top of the endurance zone for my FTP).

Pw:Hr of 4.47%.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on May 13, 2016, 02:06:24 pm


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on May 13, 2016, 05:15:28 pm


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

Have fun! FWIW I opted for the Miglia Italia. ;D :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on May 16, 2016, 05:10:20 pm
100miles on the TT bike on Saturday keeping HR in the endurance zone.   Averaged 20.8mph so I think I'm somewhere where I need to be.

PB'd a 10 the following morning which was a bit hurty.   Maybe shouldn't have pushed that hard.   

I've reduced the time on the turbo and increased the long rides in the last few weeks and I have 3 100m TTs in the space of 4 weeks between the end of May and and 3rd week of June.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 16, 2016, 06:16:54 pm
One difference between the way I've trained this year and previous years of riding lots of Auk events to build up.

The skin seems to be staying on my face.

 ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on May 17, 2016, 08:54:20 am


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

Is doing 'as fast as I can' rides twice a week TOO much??   ;)  Someone said this kind of thing was "pointless".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on May 17, 2016, 11:48:46 am


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

Is doing 'as fast as I can' rides twice a week TOO much??   ;)  Someone said this kind of thing was "pointless".

Unless he's going at 75kph then the above won't qualify as a FTP test - don't confuse a FTP test with a high tempo ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on May 17, 2016, 11:51:56 am


Unless he's going at 75kph then the above won't qualify as a FTP test - don't confuse a FTP test with a high tempo ride.

exactly, two very different things
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 17, 2016, 01:16:34 pm
I'm thinking about doing another FTP test soon. However it will be tough, to show improvement vs the test at BW I will have to average around 300W for 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on May 17, 2016, 01:17:12 pm
It’s the “as fast as I can” that had me wondering.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 17, 2016, 01:31:05 pm
I'd say go slower than that for aerobic fitness and do a short hard ride as well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on May 17, 2016, 02:37:08 pm
It’s the “as fast as I can” that had me wondering.
my local loop (https://www.strava.com/activities/582446315) has quite a few traffic lights, roundabouts, blind corners, downhills etc where you have to stop or ease off, so even if pushing hard there is some time to recover.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 19, 2016, 11:25:17 pm
Retested tonight 2x8 minute test. Boy it sucks. 276W. This is up from 259W in February - lower than the 280 tested using RQ. I suspect this method is more realistic. My HR hit 190 so I don't think I under tested.

I'm fucked.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: tonyh on May 20, 2016, 05:56:05 am
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on May 22, 2016, 10:18:03 am
Thought I may as well do an FTP test - just for shits and giggles.

I chose the 2x8 format as I'm not supposed to do extended duration maximal efforts. Result - 206w (2.4w/Kg).

I also tested my BP immediately after each work interval, because of my history of HRE; 181/95 and 174/93 - these sound scary, but actually they're pretty typical BP readings for a big aerobic effort, and they're waaaay less than I scored during the stress test at the hospital a couple of years ago (260/90!) - so that's all good.

206 seems a bit feeble to me though. Work to do, I think - once I've traded in these jelly-legs for some new ones...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 22, 2016, 12:14:50 pm
Do bear in mind that most people under test - particularly on the first attempt - as getting an accurate result requires pushing yourself very hard and good pacing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on May 22, 2016, 12:22:26 pm
Do bear in mind that most people under test - particularly on the first attempt - as getting an accurate result requires pushing yourself very hard and good pacing.

Not sure I could have gone much harder TBH - my HR was in the 180s by the end of the second interval, my absolute max is 193, but I really don't like to push it that far. I guess an underestimate is better than an overestimate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 22, 2016, 10:19:50 pm
I did a 4x20 tempo ride yesterday. NP of 215W for two hours.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on May 26, 2016, 08:29:43 am
First 3 days of the Sustained Power Build done, the FTP test hurt and has certainly set a good level for the next sessions.  Hope I can keep on it given my rather random approach to 'base' - on reflection I under tested for that so the sessions were too easy & I got bored.

On the whole the TrainerRoad thing is exactly what I needed - tells me what to do & is tailored to my (rather poor) FTP level
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 29, 2016, 08:45:13 pm
Not trained at all since last weekend (apart from a rowing session on Tuesday) due to work and rowing in the Monmouth Regatta this weekend. Going for a ride outdoors tomorrow and will be trying to get back on it this week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on June 08, 2016, 10:07:33 am
A disruptive few weeks with regatta, being away a lot, and feeling a bit tired. Managed to get some quality training in as I took a bike and the KickR with me. Monday's workout I cut short as I've clearly detrained a bit (and might have been a bit tired with travel and not enough sleep). Last night's was a base workout and my average HR was only +2bpm since the same workout in early May - base should not disappear as fast as high end, which is useful given I'm supposed to be riding the Tan Hill 600k this weekend.

Tonight I'll throw in a harder one again - an over-unders threshold workout. That will be a tester.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on June 08, 2016, 04:19:02 pm
Dropped my mid-week turbo session durations but still doing 3 on top of the commuting.   Ended last weekend pretty knackered.   I have 100m TTs the next 2 weekends with the second one being my first A race of the year.

After that it's only 5 weeks to the 24hr.   I don't really have a plan how to fill those weeks yet, but I'm sure I'll think of something.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on June 09, 2016, 11:50:45 am
Struggled again, then went to the pub.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on June 15, 2016, 10:36:40 pm
Think I'm back. Completed an over-under workout on target. Phew!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on June 22, 2016, 12:56:11 am
Small numbers compared to others (and it's a virtual power curve so cannot compare anyhoo)

4 weeks into my TrainerRoad plan & I've just retested the 20-min test...
suggested FTP is up from 185 to 199 (so close to 200!)
Suggested LTHR is down from 158 to 157

Basically I appear to have worked just as hard with greater power output  :thumbsup:

I thought the last few sessions were a bit too easy  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on June 22, 2016, 01:54:00 am
Result!  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on June 22, 2016, 12:32:49 pm
Your voluntary muscles have worked harder ( more sustainable Watts ), because your pulmonary and vascular systems have developed to transport oxygen for the additional workload you demand. Your involuntary muscles have worked at very close to the same workload. Hence your LTHR is similar for increased power output.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on June 24, 2016, 05:34:33 pm
Can anyone explain if my understanding is correct, I am working with power on a gym bike as I've said before and have looked at a chart which attempts to correlate FTP to be in hr and power zones. Now I have attempted to work out my maximum minute power (mmp) which appears to be 250w based on the power I'm using which corresponds to my hr zone and my rpe each appear to agree with my perception.

I did a little test last night where I maintained 250w for exactly 1 minute on a timed interval workout which appeared to be a little bit easy for me as I was hitting a higher wattage and had to keep lowering my cadence to bring it back in line.

My question is does MMP actually mean your maximum power you can maintain over one minute? As my hr at the end was only around 165 ish (what I normally ride my bike at).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on June 24, 2016, 07:05:59 pm
I would suggest that for audax 165 bpm is rather high.  Even for a 30 year old 165bpm is on the high side.  I am 57 and my 20 min FTP test average HR is 167-168bpm with a maximum of about 177. Most people who ride Audax will try to be in the endurance range of about 120.  The problem with a MMP test done on HR is that the heart rate always lags behind the actual power and therefore it is the HR about 20 secs after the interval that is needed.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on June 24, 2016, 07:13:38 pm
Yup. And that's why I'm not audaxing this year - my average on a 200 is 145-155. Ten hours of that is just not healthy.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on June 24, 2016, 09:32:32 pm
I'm 61 and trying t get a higher FTP which I suppose will mean I will produce more power through my heart rate range. If I travel with a hr of around 120 I will be too slow, All my rides irrespective of distance have me around 155-165 mostly and average is usually around 155bpm.

If I exercise below about 160-175 bpm I don't get any fitter  :(
my max hr is 185 when I get very light headed, but I struggle to get near this these days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on June 25, 2016, 01:29:42 am
My average HR on Yr Elenydd was 140. I've got no problem with that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on June 25, 2016, 06:45:31 am
I've never been able to find any actual literature saying explicitly that extended periods of high (as in >75% LTHR) heart rates are bad for you, but there's some evidence to show that a lot of training over the years can damage the heart.

The fact that a proportion of marathon runners, tested at the end of a marathon, show elevated levels of heart protein similar to that following an infarction, is telling. When I was taken to hospital in Good Friday 2014, my levels were raised - but they said not high enough to indicate a heart attack, "but it looks like you've run a half marathon".

Let's not forget - a marathon is only for 3 or 4 hours, even a 200 is two or three times that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on June 25, 2016, 09:02:51 am

My question is does MMP actually mean your maximum power you can maintain over one minute? As my hr at the end was only around 165 ish (what I normally ride my bike at).

Yes it does, to work it out; warm up for ~15' then go as hard as you can for one minute, the average power sustained in that minute is your MMP.

As Chris said, there is no correlation between this a HR. This is because for that minute you are working anaerobically mainly, which doesn't need oxygen. The body however, will need oxygen to process the lactate you are producing so HR goes up and continues to do so for a bit afterwards. This is also the reason for the lag in HR for any increase in effort, not enough oxygen for the demand so initially work is anaerobic until the HR catches up with the demand, usually 1-3 minutes. (Edit: it therefore takes some experience and skill to use HRs for controlling short intervals, which is why I do all my short intervals on a virtual power enabled turbo)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on June 25, 2016, 11:32:13 am
Thanks for the explanation pedal Castro I do my intervals 3 x 10 minutes with 3 minutes easy pedalling at around half the power of each session, I am trying to correlate my sustainable power with my hr after the lag so that when I am out on the bike I have some idea of what I can reasonably maintain.

In doing this I am trying to increase my FTP in order for me to produce more power for a given hr and hopefully allow me to ride at a lower hr than present without going too slow, as would be the case at present.

Going back to my question I was working backwards to roughly find my FTP from my workout using the MMP which corresponds to my steady state hr and my perceived exertion to hopefully ensure I am working out within the right zone.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on June 25, 2016, 12:45:55 pm
for the record, mmp needs to be calculated from the 3-minute test. pushing hard for only one minute will give a false result, which is typically 1.5x higher.

http://hub.wattbike.com/knowledge/the-3-minute-test (http://hub.wattbike.com/knowledge/the-3-minute-test)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on June 25, 2016, 01:13:43 pm
Zigzag has it right, MMP is done at three minutes not for one.

And John, this three minute effort is at paced full gas, so not an all out sprint but you should be on your limit in the last minute and at the end of the test you should be in a fair amount of pain. Heavy breathing, slumped over the bike, unable to acknowledge another person let alone speak to them, etc. ;)

<pissing contest alert> mine was 466w when last tested at the end of April.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on June 25, 2016, 01:33:33 pm
Ah I see, no wonder it felt too easy over my one minute , thanks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on June 25, 2016, 04:51:58 pm
for the record, mmp needs to be calculated from the 3-minute test. pushing hard for only one minute will give a false result, which is typically 1.5x higher.

http://hub.wattbike.com/knowledge/the-3-minute-test (http://hub.wattbike.com/knowledge/the-3-minute-test)

Interesting, so the Wattbike MMP isn't actually your maximum power sustainable for one minute?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on June 25, 2016, 06:07:50 pm
in isolation one minute test doesn't tell much, so it has to be taken from the three minute test, when there's enough time to reach the max hr.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on June 25, 2016, 08:16:27 pm
in isolation one minute test doesn't tell much

It does, it tells you your maximum one minute power. What you mean is that it doesn't tell you much about your aerobic capacity which is true because a one minute all out effort is almost all anaerobic. Having read the Watttbike test protocol you linked to, the MMP seems to be an artificial construct that is somewhat less useful that doing a 20' FTP test.

We have IC7 Tomahawks at work which BC are supposedly going to replace their Watttbikes with,  however the inbuilt FTP test gives values that are far too high, mainly I suspect because the test protocol is inherently flawed being a ramp test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Giropaul on June 25, 2016, 09:05:31 pm
in isolation one minute test doesn't tell much

It does, it tells you your maximum one minute power. What you mean is that it doesn't tell you much about your aerobic capacity which is true because a one minute all out effort is almost all anaerobic. Having read the Watttbike test protocol you linked to, the MMP seems to be an artificial construct that is somewhat less useful that doing a 20' FTP test.

We have IC7 Tomahawks at work which BC are supposedly going to replace their Watttbikes with,  however the inbuilt FTP test gives values that are far too high, mainly I suspect because the test protocol is inherently flawed being a ramp test.

Where I do my Wattbiking we have tried several tests. Generally, the 3 minute test is the most useful and accurate in setting training zones. We have also tried the ramp test ( possibly better for some riders with lower power figures) and some other tests, but all end up as within a few % of the zones from the 3 minute test.
I see more point in using training zones than ftp. I know it all amounts to the same thing in the end, but it's easier to design a training programme using the different zones, rather than % of a figure.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on June 27, 2016, 11:38:17 am
in isolation one minute test doesn't tell much

It tells you if its worth going to a rollapaluza event.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on July 21, 2016, 12:26:36 am
First trainer session since Mille Pennines failure. Turned down FTP to 250W to reflect less training load since last test - did Gendarme which is 40x 30s:30r 120% FTP intervals in two blocks of 20. Was surprisingly easy. FTP might not have dropped so far, though maybe I just was some way off vo2max.

Will retest next week after Bewdley Regatta.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on September 07, 2016, 12:58:10 pm
Currently on an 8 session Wattbike FTP improvement course.

Monday night was 4 x 6 minutes at 110% of FTP with 4 minutes recovery between (That doesn't include the 20 minute warm-up which are, to be frank.. fairly tough in themselves).

It's the session that has left me the most exhausted (and shaky) so far (Though I was thinking, "This seems fairly easy" after the first 2 minutes... silly..silly me.)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 09, 2016, 01:05:34 pm
Indeed, those kind of workouts catch you out. Sounds like you've made excellent progress overall.

I did a base rowing workout. 40 minutes "UT2" but my HR climbed quite high. Was maintaining average power of around 162W so in power terms it's in the right sort of place.

Going to try to build on the fitness I got this year (got my best FTP score yet in May) over the winter with some base work.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on September 09, 2016, 02:00:30 pm
Did you find TrainerRoads training plans helpful, Simon?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 09, 2016, 02:52:09 pm
Did you find TrainerRoads training plans helpful, Simon?

Yes, I found them very useful. I like the structure, the in-ride text generally is helpful, most of the workouts in the structured plans have this stuff. I haven't tried anyone else's to offer a comparison, but I'm very happy with it. I went into this spring with a higher FTP than I had before PBP last year, I felt that was a good result.

IIRC, your kit is compatible, and I still have 3 (I think) one month trial passes, if you want to check it out. Also their podcast is well worth a listen if you haven't checked it out already.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on September 09, 2016, 02:55:09 pm
I previously had some success with a generic training programme, but found this year more difficult to attain the gains that I thought might be there.   After a year of some great rides and some disappointing ones I have contacted a coach about next year.   I'll give it one good shot.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on September 09, 2016, 06:11:20 pm
IIRC, your kit is compatible, and I still have 3 (I think) one month trial passes, if you want to check it out. Also their podcast is well worth a listen if you haven't checked it out already.

Thanks! OK, I'll give it a go. It was a tossup between TrainerRoads and TrainingPeaks - but Joe Friel's training plans are eye-wateringly spendy.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on September 09, 2016, 09:13:18 pm
I mentioned elsewhere about getting a coach.  I took the plunge at the end of July.  In October/November last year my FTP was 60 and I was doing reasonably well with "training" which really consisted of commuting a lot (30-70km per day) and some use of sufferfest on a turbo.  I was ill in January and then never really recovered my form but went onto a LCHF diet and with increased endurance managed the Easter Arrow.  Went to switzerland and did a a FTP test (Rubber glove) which gave me a FTP of 210.  Broke my collar bone and did not touch a bike for 4 weeks.

I then decided that I loved my cycling and had ambitions to do more and better. Therefore I needed to train.  Knowing myself I need structure and accountability.  I also have not got time to do the research on what sort of training i needed.  On various recommendations I contacted Digdeep and have been working with a coach for 5 weeks.  I am really enjoying it and despite possibly cycling less than i would have done in time if I had just done it myself I can already see real gains.  Frankly i am amazed how much difference it has made.

Now I am sure this is not for everybody.  Most people can probably stick to a training plan off the internet and have the determination needed to self train.  I haven't and without the constant feedback and encouragement I would not have done such structured worthwhile training.

In another thread the question is asked can you get faster after 50?  On the basis of the last 5 weeks this over 50 year old certainly can.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on September 10, 2016, 12:30:59 pm
So, it's all about improving your FTP (apparently). Watts/Kg.

* looks up the seminal Andrew Coggan power chart *

Hmm... I appear to be in the middle of the "Untrained" band. Work to do  :thumbsup:

(http://d4nuk0dd6nrma.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/powerprofiling.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on September 10, 2016, 03:13:47 pm
Failed in my attempt to do an FTP test this morning. After last weekend's 12h I have just done a couple of recovery 30 commutes and planned my first turbo session today. Decided at the last moment to do the TrainerRoad FTP 20' test instead of my normal intervals as I thought I was reasonably rested and it made sense to do it now as I start my next block.

Unfortunately a combination of the pain in my knee and the fact that my FTP is less than it was and so the on screen power target was perhaps too aspirational meant that I packed halfway through.

Overall not a bad season though despite all the hiccoughs with PBs at all distances except 24h which I DNF'd to safe my knee for the 12h. Hope to do significantly better next year so about to get down to some SERIOUS training, and lose some SERIOUS weight!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on September 10, 2016, 06:57:32 pm
Failed in my attempt to do an FTP test this morning. After last weekend's 12h I have just done a couple of recovery 30 commutes and planned my first turbo session today. Decided at the last moment to do the TrainerRoad FTP 20' test instead of my normal intervals as I thought I was reasonably rested and it made sense to do it now as I start my next block.

Unfortunately a combination of the pain in my knee and the fact that my FTP is less than it was and so the on screen power target was perhaps too aspirational meant that I packed halfway through.

Overall not a bad season though despite all the hiccoughs with PBs at all distances except 24h which I DNF'd to safe my knee for the 12h. Hope to do significantly better next year so about to get down to some SERIOUS training, and lose some SERIOUS weight!

If it helps I can still feel the 12.   All I have done this week is commute 3 times.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on September 13, 2016, 06:42:33 pm
More inappropriately timed training here, too; my first (Free Trial: Thanks SimonP  :thumbsup:) TrainerRoad FTP session, two days after a hilly 100. Needless to say, it was lower than my previous measurement, though not by much. As my previous was using different software (shouldn't matter, but you never know) I think I'll keep today's new figure - hopefully I'll get Free Gains next time.

Liking the TrainerRoad experience - some of the in-workout prompts are amusing.

"Try to choke back the vomit. Or at least get someone to hold your hair."
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on September 13, 2016, 10:42:41 pm
I read a paper the other day that reviewed the training regimes of elite athletes across a range of endurance sports, and looked at changes to the program of elite and sub elite athletes. Some interesting extracts:

This is a long time ago (from page 1), but do you happen to remember which paper that was?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on September 14, 2016, 06:57:52 am
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on September 14, 2016, 08:36:36 am
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)

That's a hell of a daily deficit. Not concerned about losing lean mass?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 14, 2016, 04:23:00 pm
More inappropriately timed training here, too; my first (Free Trial: Thanks SimonP  :thumbsup:) TrainerRoad FTP session, two days after a hilly 100. Needless to say, it was lower than my previous measurement, though not by much. As my previous was using different software (shouldn't matter, but you never know) I think I'll keep today's new figure - hopefully I'll get Free Gains next time.

Liking the TrainerRoad experience - some of the in-workout prompts are amusing.

"Try to choke back the vomit. Or at least get someone to hold your hair."

Generally those prompts are very useful. Either for motivation in the tough workouts, for working on form in others, or for just breaking up the monotony of a 2h endurance effort.



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on September 16, 2016, 01:34:59 pm
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)

You don't see a connection?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 05, 2016, 01:26:23 pm
So after testing on Thursday then being away over the weekend, Sweet Spot Base I was launched again last night.

Because the 8 minute test was supposed to be Tuesday's workout, and I have DOMs from Monday circuit training, I opted for 45 minutes endurance.

If I can face it tonight, it's a 90 minute tempo intervals session. The DOMs is worse today, and I'm feeling tired, so I might pick something easier.

Currently not getting out on the water midweek with the rowing (due to earlier nights and lack of experienced coxes available) so am going to try to make sure I stick to the plan as much as possible.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on October 05, 2016, 02:26:50 pm
Really hurting today. 3 days hard sessions, 1 rest day then a manpower intervals session. Zone 2 tomorrow then power session on Friday. Rest Saturday tempo Sunday and then a rest week. I will need it
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 05, 2016, 08:47:36 pm
Agreed terms and a rough programme with a coach today.

Work starts 1st Nov. 

After a long discussion we're going to work without power.   That gives me a grand more budget for blingy bits.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 06, 2016, 01:03:05 am
Good luck!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on October 06, 2016, 06:07:29 am
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)

You don't see a connection?

That's the point! Loosing weight, power up on the fast days and doing strava PBs up local short sharp hills. All looking good :)

Entered the Cambridge Chrono so a major target next year is the qualify for France.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on October 06, 2016, 08:50:47 pm
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)

You don't see a connection?

That's the point! Loosing weight, power up on the fast days and doing strava PBs up local short sharp hills. All looking good :)

Entered the Cambridge Chrono so a major target next year is the qualify for France.

You rock brao.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 06, 2016, 09:32:04 pm
I was too tired yesterday. Did sweet spot intervals at lunchtime as I worked from home. Dropped cadence to 80rpm for simulated climbing. Now full of tuna pasta bake. Might do an endurance hour once it's gone down.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on October 06, 2016, 10:27:14 pm
I'm trying to stick with the Marco Pinotti 10-12w FTP builder on Zwift. I did the 1hr FTP test, and got 291w from a 306w 20m average. Mate at lbs (who just got a Drivo, but says the Neo is usefully quieter) has just been trained in doing lactate threshold testing and has offered to do it for me for the cost of consumables. He said that calculating FTP from .95 * 20m average is just an estimate and for endurance LT testing is the way to go. Does that sound right? Certainly I'm finding the FTP builder programme harder with my new score! Maybe it is overly optimistic.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 06, 2016, 11:24:02 pm
Well, I've had LT testing done. The protocol was a ramp test to vo2max in 25W increments, a minute at a time. So there is an issue of precision. I've also had FTP tests done using respiratory quotient. 20W increments. I think ramp tests are more reliable in one sense as they don't rely on pacing an effort. Many people will under test initially as they learn how to pace a time trial effort. You need to be motivated as it's not easy.

2009 LT was 225W. RQ testing last year went 220, 240, 260W. This year 260W, 280W. I compared the 280W against TrainerRoad 2x8 min test which scored 275W. So I guess really the RQ test said threshold up to 280W. The RQ test added value because it confirmed a big improvement in aerobic base fitness. I think LT testing can confirm this also as lactate should be lower in the subthrehshold zones with a good base.

The other issue to consider is just because your LT is X the length of time you can sit around that level is influenced by how good your base is, by motivation as mentioned above, and also by muscular endurance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 07, 2016, 11:23:31 am
I'm on the trainer now doing an endurance ride and watching the tennis. Heart rate is all over he place during the rallies.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on October 07, 2016, 06:28:03 pm
The other thing is that being on liquid only diet, and having a mouth that's full of stitches, is that the weight is falling off me. I've upped my protein intake in an effort to retain lean muscle mass.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 11, 2016, 12:14:00 am
So less than a week of training, and I repeated the same workout tonight that I did last Tuesday.

Average HR for the identical workout is 7bpm lower (from 135bpm down to 128bpm).

They do say the loss of fitness from a break is initially more top-end, and that comes back fast. I might already need to raise the FTP setting in TR. Don't fancy doing another test so soon.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 11, 2016, 10:58:29 am
And again this morning, 3x12m sweet-spot workout. 149bpm average last week, now 141bpm.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 13, 2016, 11:18:55 am
Typical - as I get some training momentum going, I get a cold and have no energy.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on October 20, 2016, 01:19:12 pm
AC Hackney Simulator(tm).

(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5349/30330401022_934242b7fd_z.jpg)

Rolling road views of Iceland and ethereal soundtrack, courtesy Sigur Rós, hills thanks to TrainerRoad Tallac sub FTP intervals.

I need to grow my beard longer and put the fixed on the turbo for the full effect  :).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 20, 2016, 01:54:27 pm
I train in the haze of petrol fumes from my motorbike. I need to use it as an excuse to shell out on something more modern.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 14, 2016, 01:45:18 pm
Think it's time to re-test, HR has dropped substantially for same efforts.

 :hand:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 15, 2016, 01:41:12 pm
Week 3 of working with a coach.   A couple of conclusions so far :-

- New (magnetic) turbo is a vast improvement on the old one, but I need to play about with the resistance.
- I wasn't resting anywhere near easy enough between intervals in the past.

Overall the programme has more intensity and less volume, which I can understand.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 15, 2016, 02:15:34 pm
Interesting. I think mixing in some higher intensity work in the base phase works better for the time crunched cyclist.

My last test said 240W FTP. I hope for at least 250W tonight.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 15, 2016, 02:20:24 pm
Interesting. I think mixing in some higher intensity work in the base phase works better for the time crunched cyclist.

Pretty much everything is tempo or upwards, but weekend rides are 2-2.5hrs - I asked if I could ride for a bit longer when I had free time and it was OK.   Turbo sessions are all what I would call threshold efforts with some sprint-style efforts, but they're all around an hour.

I'm unlikely to race until May so plenty of time to increase workload.   I've just been sent next week's plan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 15, 2016, 08:29:23 pm
Quote
I've just been sent next week's plan.
Did you get that slightly sick feeling and wondered why did I sign up with a coach?

I am now 3 months in and loving every minute( except in the actual training, obviously).  I am sure i am getting Stockholm syndrome.  I feel bad if i cannot do my workout in the morning before work and wait on tenterhooks for the feedback about how I have done.  Then the tough messages when i spend too much time in Zone 3 on my weekend rides!  "Behave and do as you are told!"
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on November 15, 2016, 08:47:12 pm
For various reasons I haven't been on the road at all this month. 4-5 one hour turbo interval sessions per week though and I am already back to my February power levels so pleased with progress. Every session takes me to the edge and I can't do more than two days in a row.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 15, 2016, 09:32:21 pm
From 241-255 w in 6 weeks. I guessed 250+ so pleased.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 15, 2016, 09:33:06 pm
Quote
I've just been sent next week's plan.
Did you get that slightly sick feeling and wondered why did I sign up with a coach?


It's still early days, but I have been managing so far.   He has upped the workload pretty quickly, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 20, 2016, 04:35:38 pm
This week since the test on Tuesday has been a bit of a struggle. Think it took a lot out of me, and with being busy at work doing a 90m endurance/tempo session, 1h sweet spot session on Thursday I was very tired yesterday. Managed on the water rowing session but ditched 3x20 sweet spot, had a lie in today then did it. Today was supposed to 3h endurance. The rowing yesterday can count for some of that. So I might try to do a 1h endurance session while dinner is in the oven.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 20, 2016, 04:47:58 pm
Brilliant session on Thursday 20min climbing intervals with max power 30 second sprints at the end.  Friday cannot get out of bed with some virus, yesterday still very weak.  35 minutes of temp today just to keep things ticking over and then back to it tomorrow.  Was at the end of a hard week so hopefully will not have lost too much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 20, 2016, 04:55:10 pm
Bummer, GWS. I had a whole week of training lost to lurgy last month. It's annoying as it disrupts momentum.

However my test FTP score is higher than I had 11 months ago, so it's looking promising for going into next season stronger.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 21, 2016, 10:40:09 pm
A great recovery.  Repeated a session from 3 weeks ago and NP for the session had gone up by 22W and I got a trainerroad badge for my 60 minute power.  Well pleased.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 23, 2016, 12:41:51 pm
Quote
I've just been sent next week's plan.
Did you get that slightly sick feeling and wondered why did I sign up with a coach?

"Next week.   Up a bit again."   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 23, 2016, 12:58:57 pm
Ah, coaches. Rowing club, several intervals in to some ridiculous workout:

"Come on Proven, get that pace back below 2:00, I know you can do better than that!"
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 23, 2016, 01:51:11 pm
Ah, coaches. Rowing club, several intervals in to some ridiculous workout:

"Come on Proven, get that pace back below 2:00, I know you can do better than that!"

To be fair this bloke seems remarkably sensible and the workouts have been challenging, but not killers.    However I am only in week 4 and target races don't start until May/June.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 23, 2016, 03:34:31 pm
I just think I am such a disappointment to my coach.  I try to do everything he says but I get muscle pain and just cannot turn off my "central governor".  Trying for a TSS of over 600 this week but only managed 85 in todays work out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 23, 2016, 04:30:55 pm
600?  :o

Jeez - you guys seem to be going at it pretty hard, considering it's only November. I'm barely ticking over with hours of base work.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 23, 2016, 05:13:35 pm
My HRtss for a 200k was about 800. Probably overestimated.

TrainerRoad high volume is around 400/week. I rarely do 100%. Older riders may not be able to handle as much TSS as younger. I managed total including rowing of around 400 last week and am pretty tired.

How long was this workout that gave a TSS of 85? Is your FTP measured accurately. I did 1h yesterday which was TSS of 67. Not a trivial workout.

As for the muscle pain, if doing efforts near or above FTP you get that. The longer the effort the more it builds. Are you doing too much threshold work too soon?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on November 23, 2016, 06:02:26 pm
TSS for the last 7 days is 520.  I hate looking at my CTL, as it's dropped so much since the summer I feel sad.

Did a sprint workout from Today's Plan (signed up for a year - much prefer it to Training Peaks - it actually gives you the workouts for whatever platform you want, not just tell you what TSS to aim for and what filters to use). Did 2*15m SST at 65rpm (hate low rpm work) then 4*10s 715w. That burnt the dust off the Neo!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 23, 2016, 06:24:14 pm
715W is pretty good.  I can only hit that for a couple of seconds.


I will hit the 600TSS for the week but it will include about 240 for my Sunday ride.  I have 80km and 1550m of climb planned on all my favourite hills.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 23, 2016, 07:01:47 pm
I managed 782W for 10s on the Kernow 600k last year allegedly.  Maybe this is why I DNFed.

My highest recently recorded power is 1295W from last year for a couple of seconds. Steep hill start on fixed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 23, 2016, 08:37:16 pm
Don't really know my TSS, but I'm doing 15hrs a week of varying intensities.

I saw Adam Topham* quoted as clicking around 700 TSS a week for 12hrs training.   




*multi BBAR winner
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on November 23, 2016, 09:03:13 pm
Not all TSS are created equal though, I was a LOT faster this year on half the CTL as last year, all because I did a lot of turbo sessions and very few audax.

In this morning's session I managed to record an impossible 115TSS, but I always manage to hit an IF>1 for this 60:60 session whereas it's all my longer interval sessions match FTP expectations more accurately (although I have improved 5/6W since the last test probably). https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/4511562-ak-billat-60-60 (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/4511562-ak-billat-60-60) I did feel halfway through interval #3 that there was no way I would be able to finish the the first block of 6 but I use the Adam Topham principle and just think one minute at a time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 23, 2016, 10:42:11 pm
I've found Billatts such as TR's Gendarme relatively easy.

As for quality, I agree you get far more bang per buck from trainer/turbo time than time on the road. Which means I had higher FTP and better fat burning from a much lower time commitment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on November 24, 2016, 07:28:12 am
I've found Billatts such as TR's Gendarme relatively easy.

Yes, I found the 30:30 version pretty pointless on a bike. Ideas of course developed for runners rather than cyclists though. The 60:60 session works really well for me as long as I push a higher power than the paper suggests. I do this session once a week and the classic 5x3' Billat's once a week too, my other regular session is a Seiler 4x8'.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 24, 2016, 10:28:43 am
I've found Billatts such as TR's Gendarme relatively easy.

Yes, I found the 30:30 version pretty pointless on a bike. Ideas of course developed for runners rather than cyclists though. The 60:60 session works really well for me as long as I push a higher power than the paper suggests. I do this session once a week and the classic 5x3' Billat's once a week too, my other regular session is a Seiler 4x8'.

50:50 in Ansel Adams seems to be quite punishing for me and more like where I should be. 3x12 of 50:50 at 135% FTP. I can usually barely manage it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 24, 2016, 08:57:09 pm
Just did Solomons. Always surprised to finish on target.  :thumbsup: A few more seconds on the last interval would have defeated me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on November 25, 2016, 06:16:49 am
Just did Solomons. Always surprised to finish on target.  :thumbsup: A few more seconds on the last interval would have defeated me.

I like the look of that one! I usually only have time for one hour sessions midweek but aim to do a 90' one at the weekend so may try this on Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on November 27, 2016, 10:25:20 am
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161127/391aad84af52481b6350826a80cf97d7.jpg)

That's an *anaerobic capacity workout" from today's plan, adjusted to extend endurance to make room for a pub lunch. The 5 x FTPX1.4 for 1m30s were challenging, like trying to follow someone stronger bridging a gap (specifically a chap called Mel Hartley from Condor, who despite having more than 10 years on me can remove my legs and batter me with them at will). However, my TSS came out 30% higher than estimated, whereas usually it's bang on. That's because I'm shit at anaerobic stuff, right? Maybe a bit of cardiac drift in the second endurance interval too I guess?

All this VO2 and anaerobic stuff is new to me. I think it was because in the today's plan survey they do before building a plan admitted I'm shit at keeping on the back of bunch accelerations.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 27, 2016, 11:11:27 am
Very nice.

I did my endurance workout yesterday, so 64km and 1200m of climb with VO2 max efforts going over the tops.  Seriously????  The VO2max efforts only happened in the last 15km and were definitely sub par.

TSS for the ride was 290 and another 89 today gives me 683 for the week.  Not bad for a 58 year old.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 27, 2016, 09:38:32 pm
I went out with two local riders today. They met up with me in the square having already done 10 miles. Where's I only had two miles before we climbed up to Longbottom. Got my HR to 190 by the top. Never done that climb before - now I know why. The Sunday ride is meant to be 3h of much easier riding. In the end I had 250 TSS from 2h30 moving time. So after a coffee back home I did 1h30 on the KickR for 310 TSS of the day.

628 for the week between cycling and rowing. Could be higher for the next week as Saturday will most likely exceed that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 27, 2016, 09:57:55 pm
310 in a single day is seriously impressive. I think I would probably be dead to do 250 in 2.5 hours.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 30, 2016, 02:25:03 pm
310 in a single day is seriously impressive. I think I would probably be dead to do 250 in 2.5 hours.

Hmm. My TSS was from HR in this case. And I was on fixed which probably increases HR relative to power on the harder climbs.

It's interesting to compare the same workout last night (Carillon) with the same for January. Nearly identical power output and 7bpm lower mean HR and >10bpm lower max HR. I think that means I'm ahead of last year. I've been following the plan a lot more consistently and it's paying off.

Supposed to be doing a rowing fitness test this week. Unfortunately it's a test I've never done before so tricky to pace.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 30, 2016, 02:37:14 pm
I was surprised to lean that an adaptation week doesn't, in fact, mean riding gently to the café.   Balls.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 30, 2016, 04:22:27 pm
I know what you mean.  I thought a rest week was that - a "rest week". Apparently not.  Just slightly less than last week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 30, 2016, 04:28:25 pm
Next week is supposed to be recovery week for me - 328 TSS over 7h.

Except I'm riding a 200k on Saturday which is going to be 8h+ riding time and some ridiculous TSS.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on November 30, 2016, 10:54:14 pm
Very nice.

I did my endurance workout yesterday, so 64km and 1200m of climb with VO2 max efforts going over the tops.  Seriously????  The VO2max efforts only happened in the last 15km and were definitely sub par.

TSS for the ride was 290 and another 89 today gives me 683 for the week.  Not bad for a 58 year old.

If you want to test out your endurance try a de-coupling test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 01, 2016, 08:55:41 am
LMT, I might wait a while for that as I saw a worthwhile improvement in FTP last night but of course that means the next few weeks will be harder again!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 04, 2016, 06:21:17 pm
Intense pain in knee halfway through last interval in a 4x8' Seiler set yesterday. Had to keep the cadence low (80-85 rather than 95-100) for today's 4x15' sweetspot session. Doc had said training couldn't make any it worse than it was apparently so I ignore the pain and carry on...

It's going to be 10-11 weeks before I see the consultant, then it'll be an MRI followed by hopefully a general clean up of all the crap swilling about in the joint.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 04, 2016, 06:28:36 pm
Very nice.

I did my endurance workout yesterday, so 64km and 1200m of climb with VO2 max efforts going over the tops.  Seriously????  The VO2max efforts only happened in the last 15km and were definitely sub par.

TSS for the ride was 290 and another 89 today gives me 683 for the week.  Not bad for a 58 year old.

Agreed - this week was 640, and I know it, and you have 14yrs on me. The next 4 weeks are 500, 590, 640 (Xmas week), then 480 followed blood lactate testing on the Tuesday of the following week. Will be interesting to see if there's been an improvement.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 05, 2016, 02:25:36 pm
Last week was low as I bailed on the long ride.  Legs were still in bed when I was 20km up the road so I turned round and came home.  Still 500 for the week and a new FTP set almost by accident.  Doing a 20,1520 min pyramid and felt really good so just pushed on. Low and behold FTP up by 10.

Rest week this week then a couple of hard weeks before Christmas. Then 10 days off work at home in January for some 2 hour sessions on the turbo!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 05, 2016, 09:58:38 pm
Turbo work last Tuesday left me pretty wiped out.   Spent a couple of days thinking I was coming down with something, but I eventually thought it might just have been the cold in the garage.   I was supposed to be adapting from then anyway so backed off and tried to eat properly.   Felt good so did the planned road session yesterday and now feel battered.   Will see how turboing goes Tue/Thu as I'm now building again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 07, 2016, 02:27:17 pm
So following the increase in FTP I had two hard sessions last night and this morning at the new levels.

first the TSS goes down when FTP goes up!  I now have to work even harder!

Second, I thought last week that my legs were feeling good and I must be getting fitter as they didn't hurt after a session.  Guess what, this week they hurt again!

I know you all know this but I just felt like a man rant!  Bit like man flu probably.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 07, 2016, 02:42:02 pm
Yes. Cycling doesn't get easier you only get faster.

I had a ramp test last year and it came out at 280W. That was too high and it made some workouts impossible. Problem is ramp test being in 20W increments. FTP was probably around 270. A month later 2x8m test gave 275W which was more reasonable.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 07, 2016, 03:46:21 pm
280W is high end aspirational for me at the moment.  Training peaks gave me 211 but I paced it really badly so I have been doing trainerroad with FTP set at 225W.  I am managing the threshold efforts (6 intervals of 5 minutes at FTP with 3 minute recovery and 5 max sprints for 10 seconds with 50 second recovery) with a decoupling of around 3% in the intervals.

last night was 15 minute efforts at FTP which gave a significantly higher Pw:HR of almost 7% in the last interval.

overall I think I am on track and looking forward to seeing what I can achieve.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 13, 2016, 06:54:39 pm
solid session on sunday. 88km at 25kph average with 70% of the time in Zone 2 HR.  Yesterday was 20,15,10 at FTP with recovery which i barely managed and then tonight was 8 x1minute sprint intervals with 3 minute recovery.  It was a shambles.  Only managed a TSS of 72 for the 50 minutes.  Thankfully sports massage now and then a rest day tomorrow 

.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 13, 2016, 09:17:35 pm
I had a recovery week after the 200k and today did FTP test. 266W, up 11W in exactly 4 weeks. Pleased with that progress and if this continues will be approaching PB by February.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 13, 2016, 10:00:29 pm
Quote
266W, up 11W in exactly 4 weeks.
Congratulations
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 14, 2016, 11:14:16 am
Quote
266W, up 11W in exactly 4 weeks.
Congratulations

Hmm, thanks.

I think one of the things I've learned from these tests is that to an extent it's about knowing that you really can keep going when everything is telling you to stop; at the start of the second interval my legs were really not happy with me, but I pushed through it, and actually felt better at the 4 minute point than after 1 minute. That had changed by the end, though. In the end I averaged 296W for the first 8-minute effort and 295W for the second, which suggests pacing is much better than it used to be. In my best result, from May, it was 311W in the first and 304W in the second, as I cracked a bit with about 2 minutes to go.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: teethgrinder on December 14, 2016, 11:54:56 am
600?  :o

Jeez - you guys seem to be going at it pretty hard, considering it's only November. I'm barely ticking over with hours of base work.

Just for anyone's interest, my average for the month record was about 3100.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 14, 2016, 12:18:10 pm
 :o

Well, I had a look at Sweet Spot Base II high volume, it's an average of 8.8 hours/week with an average weekly TSS of 500.

Fitting that around rowing training will be the main challenge. I've got to do 1.5h today and to be honest that test yesterday has taken a lot out of me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 14, 2016, 08:41:21 pm
Quote
my average for the month record was about 3100

You know nobody likes a show off?   :) :)  Does put us in the shade somewhat.  Out of interest what are doing in your training now in terms of TSS and FTP?  I understand you have a superb aerobic engine with a very low HR?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 15, 2016, 07:33:30 pm
Hard week at work and pretty stressed so nice to get on the trainer after a rest day yesterday.  2 x20 min intervals at 95% 0f FTP was pretty good with 3 x1 minute sprint intervals.  Less stressed now!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 17, 2016, 12:48:38 am
Had a terrible night's sleep on Wednesday, followed by a busy day and an evening of the kids being arses. I didn't manage to get on the turbo until late. My workout was 2 x 30m at 95% FTP. I couldn't face the second block.

I was going to tag it on to a 2x12m at 88% ftp session today, but couldn't face it, as I know I have a TSS 165 tempo session on sunday with 4 x 20m at 60rpm (I spin at 97-105 - the more watts required, the more I'll spin). It'll be deth.

What do you guys do when you don't complete a session? I am aware, there's a paper out there that says cyclists are terrors for making hard days too easy and easy days too hard. By catching up, I think I'll be making things worse, when I need that rest day to stand a chance of making it through Sunday's horror show.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 17, 2016, 01:02:35 am
I try not to sweat missing the odd session. If it becomes a habit then it needs addressing. If you're hitting 90% of target then no real issue. Life gets in the way.

2x30m at 95% FTP is hard. On Thursday I did 3x20 at 85%. Should have been on Wednesday but I was too busy with cooking. I couldn't do that after a big meal anyway. So I pushed it by one day. I'm busy tomorrow and Sunday as well then we're away for a week from Tuesday so what I'm going to try to do is fit as much as possible in over the next few days (kind of a mini training camp) with the knowledge that I'll have a week off.

Your plan seems quite tough for this stage of the season. Are you becoming over trained? I got a little freaked at the volume of Sweet Spot Base II in TR with a peak of 9h45 in week 5 and training 6 days a week.

My plan is to do a long endurance session tomorrow, maybe nothing on Sunday and a tough vo2max workout on Monday before my week off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 17, 2016, 06:46:30 am
I've got follow-up blood lactate testing in January, so we'll see. TSB is only just negative 30 day ramp rate is about 4. All looks sensible. Still, it's off the back of training with an inflated FTP, so it will look easier in the numbers than it is the in legs, I think.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 17, 2016, 05:12:47 pm
Similar feeling re training last 3 days. Thursday was good and solid. Friday was rubbish.
Today should have been 3.5 hours long endurance. Out at 6:45  but back in an hour as body not right. Hard week at work and on the bike meant that a day in front of the fire was needed.

Just over 400TSS for the week plus work is enough for now.

I wonder in this mild weather if there are some low grade viral things on the go?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 17, 2016, 05:39:47 pm
It's a time of year when energy levels are lower and there are a lot of things getting in the way.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 17, 2016, 05:46:40 pm
It's a time of year when energy levels are lower and there are a lot of things getting in the way.

Funny you should mention that. I've been playing with an app called "Exist" (https://exist.io) which pulls in data from other apps and tries to make correlations between trends. One of the most striking things I've noticed is a steady increase in the amount of sleep I've been getting every night; it tracks the decline in daylight perfectly, since September right through to this week. I haven't made any conscious efforts to get more sleep - it's just happened. It'll be interesting to see if the reverse happens as the days lengthen again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 17, 2016, 06:43:00 pm

I wonder in this mild weather if there are some low grade viral things on the go?

This, for me. Was sneezed over by half my colleagues on thursday, to the point where I lost my temper with one. Consultant saw me yesterday - upped my inhaled steroids, made noises about putting me on a 13th (really) med, but I said wait and see. In return, I have to go back in 6 weeks to make sure I'm okay, promise to phlegm in a pot, and eat gaviscon advance after every meal. Such fun.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 17, 2016, 07:57:18 pm
I had some issues recently with my Tue turbo session which is the hardest 75mins I do each week.   I often find I haven't recovered from my Sunday long ride and I had issues with pacing them and started too hard.  I backed off 2 weeks back but completed the session.   General feedback from coach and an article a marathon runner mate of mine sent me was to still complete the session but back off if you have to.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 17, 2016, 08:55:56 pm
Quote
but back off if you have to

I keep being told this by my coach as well.

I find that this can be difficult on the Neo as if I start to drop my cadence the resistance goes up to keep the same power output.  I find now that for the 1 minute sessions I switch to resistance mode which allows me to change cadence, etc as i feel what my legs can give.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 17, 2016, 09:05:29 pm
4x8' on Tues, 5x3' on Wed, both witn average interval power PBs, then 2 days off due to work commitments followed by a hilly 50 mile Z3 ride today and strava PBs up all four of the big hills without trying that hard. Things are going well :-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 17, 2016, 09:38:26 pm
Quote
but back off if you have to

I keep being told this by my coach as well.

I find that this can be difficult on the Neo as if I start to drop my cadence the resistance goes up to keep the same power output.  I find now that for the 1 minute sessions I switch to resistance mode which allows me to change cadence, etc as i feel what my legs can give.

TrainerRoad often suggest if you're struggling to complete an interval on target to back pedal for 10s or so. Then go again. Backing off on erg mode doesn't work as you've discovered and you just get bogged down.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 17, 2016, 10:17:44 pm
Quote
but back off if you have to

I keep being told this by my coach as well.

I find that this can be difficult on the Neo as if I start to drop my cadence the resistance goes up to keep the same power output.  I find now that for the 1 minute sessions I switch to resistance mode which allows me to change cadence, etc as i feel what my legs can give.

I'm working with speed/cadence (bike is fixed and I've left the same gear on) on a basic magnetic turbo.   I now know what cadence I can do by each resistance setting, but can back off a little if it feels too hard.   On the bad session I had a couple of weeks back my average cadence dropped from about 115rpm to 110 by the last one and my HR was way higher than it had been previously.  This week's session I did the first interval averaging 110 but was hitting 114rpm and pushing on in the last interval.  My HR was not as high as the previous week so I expect I was better rested and paced the efforts properly.

Each week the length of the intervals goes up and recovery goes down but I have had to move the resistance setting up in order to stop from spinning out.   I expect this means that my power output has gone up, but I had a long break after my last TT so was starting from a lower base.   The signs are encouraging, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on December 18, 2016, 10:29:58 am
long steady distance on friday - 320km, 22kph, 96w, 66rpm, 110bpm, 318tss - on a tt bike which is not very suitable for such riding. i was wearing a cap with a peak, which made me raise my head more to see where i'm going, now my neck hurts. used three bread rolls (w/ butter, mozzarella ant tomato) and four bananas for the fuel and 1l of drink.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: teethgrinder on December 19, 2016, 12:03:54 pm

You know nobody likes a show off?   :) :)  Does put us in the shade somewhat.  Out of interest what are doing in your training now in terms of TSS and FTP?  I understand you have a superb aerobic engine with a very low HR?
[/quote]

Last weeks TSS was just over 1400
It's the longer rides that bump it up a bit. The 12 hour ride yesterday was about 450.
Doing some strength and speed stuff. Hill repeats with a low cadence at 95-100% FTP
4x30 minute intervals of 60-70rpm at 85-90% FTP
30 mins at 90-95rpm 80-85% but spinning up to 110-120rpm for 10 secs every 3 minutes (I usually go to about 140-150) Then 3x20mins at 95-105rpm at 85-90% FTP.
I prefer the strength stuff on the road to the turbo. Turbo gets a lower TSS score but I think it's harder.

It'll be a bit more this week so my TSS should be over 1500. It was at around 2000 for a few weeks before I went for the month.

My HR is low. Maximum in my last test was 168. I got it to 175 in 2013. I think the year record attempt lowered my MHR.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 19, 2016, 01:04:50 pm
Surprisingly similar to the FTP raising plan Today's Plan has me on, albeit very different volumes. This week is a 620tss one before a recovery week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 20, 2016, 10:05:46 pm
Hero to Zero!

Last night was superb, great session exceeded all my goals and set best 30second power and 90 minute power.  Tonight could hardly get the legs to move.  Like pedalling through treacle.  finished 3 out of 4 10 minute intervals at 80% of planned and called it a day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 20, 2016, 10:28:21 pm
First 3 intervals tonight went OK but sat up for the last 2, rather than using the TT position.

Annoyingly when spinning at 110rpm + the turbo started to walk.   I had to stop a couple of times and put the front wheel back into the holder.   I was better off when I just used an Argos catalogue.   Should probably put the turbo matt back down.   

Not going to drop much next 2 weeks so should carry through quite nicely.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 20, 2016, 10:54:09 pm
Just did 2 sets of 20 x 15sec at 140%FTP with 15 secs rest, each bookended by 5m SST. The 10th-15th of the second block were horrible until I found a happy place and was able to hide from how horrible it felt. The last 5 were almost euphoric.

Legs will be sore in the morning, but it's a rest day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 20, 2016, 11:27:21 pm
Last night was last TR session for a week as we're away. As I'd missed Saturday and Sunday training I picked my go-to session for a beasting (Solomons). 6x3m:3r at 115% FTP with a 12m tempo block the 4x2m:4r at 130%. This is intended to be a tough challenge to complete and it is. This was my second highest NP for this workout and I can feel it today particularly after late night then up for a 7:10 flight. And we have walked >5 miles today.

I've put in the next two weeks of the plan into TrainingPeaks and the drop in CTL appears significant - and I won't be back to where I'm at today until three weeks from now. I have trainers with me, however, and my TickrX, so might get a couple of runs in. It was really quite warm today so going for a run a few times this week is do-able.

There is a gym and getting on a rowing machine would help with maintenance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: teethgrinder on December 22, 2016, 08:38:33 am
Surprisingly similar to the FTP raising plan Today's Plan has me on, albeit very different volumes. This week is a 620tss one before a recovery week.

I'm not sure how good the TSS score is for how hard a week of training is. I got about 160 for my turbo session yesterday. I found that harder than doing longer rides that score a lot more on the TSS scale. Maybe it's because I'm used to doing the long rides and long rides feel short to me. I think that 4 of those turbo sessions a week would be enough for me!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 22, 2016, 08:53:20 am
Yes, I don't think all TSS are equal. I've got a 4*15m at "threshold" 95%FTP due today, which is estimated at 117TSS, but I looked ahead to the Mere 200, and it's estimated that at nearly 700TSS. I'd feel fine the day after 200, but I'm sure I'll feel today's efforts tomorrow.

I'm sure these numbers are just there to help us sense when we're working harder / easing off. To that extent, they are useful to me - keeping an eye on ramp rate, looking ahead and fitting training around other commitments.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 22, 2016, 09:57:29 am
Interesting regarding the TSS.  I do a 3.5 hour zone 2HR ride on Sunday which will regularly get me 250 of TSS but is as you say a lot easier than the turbo rides in the week which get me a much lower TSS.  I wonder how you could model that better?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 22, 2016, 10:07:12 am
I'm only doing 2 turbo sessions a week at the moment, but I find these way harder than any of my long road rides.

One of the biggest challenges of the last few years has been learning how to push myself harder for shorter periods of time.   Good to see everyone else with a similar background has the same issues.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 22, 2016, 11:04:59 am
Generally the higher intensity work needs more recovery. However I feel far more knackered the day after a 200k than after a 90 minute vo2max workout I can barely finish.

As you add more TSS the intensity has to drop or you face burn out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on December 22, 2016, 12:07:26 pm
The difference between an aerobic effort and an anaerobic effort...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 23, 2016, 11:19:23 am
Another 140 of TSS today.  With a bit of luck and pushing hard I can hit 2000 for the month which would be an all time high.  Probably means doing the long ride on 31 December rather than 1 January.

CTL also a lifetime high of 64.2.

Really chuffed with my Autumn training. However I am currently refusing to be near my wife or kiss her as she has a cold.  Oh, the sacrifices I make as an athlete ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 23, 2016, 12:54:17 pm
Yesterday was a 4 x 15m at 95%FTP, with some bits either side, making TSS of 126.

Last thing I did last night was swap my workouts for today, as there's no way I'd do a VO2 intermittent session properly. Instead, I'm doing "aerobic development + power starts".

First thing I did this morning (before I put the kettle on even) was get the foam roller out. Jeeze, I am feeling this week.

What's nice is seeing the effects physically. My body fat is down (between 6 & 7%), despite  being 2kg heavier than usual, and 6kg heavier than the summer. Can see it in the veins on my leg, which are now prominent up into my thighs. I feel much less fragile at 71kg than at 65kg!

@chrisbainbridge - that's life for me with bronchiectasis. I bollocked a colleague and ended up leaving a meeting when I realised that he wasn't covering his mouth as he coughed next to me repeatedly, then the people in front and behind started. I carry alcohol gel everywhere, and my kids are well trained to use it all the time, and sneeze in to their elbows.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on December 23, 2016, 01:12:29 pm
it feels good to be at my summer weight right now, 67kg, 10.3% body fat, 3% visceral fat ( <- is this a part of body fat or extra?). rapha500 starts tomorrow which will kickstart base training for the next year. indoor training will probably be on the rollers as (for me) the turbo kills all the positive emotions associated with cycling..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 23, 2016, 02:15:06 pm
Quote
the turbo kills all the positive emotions associated with cycling

I empathise with this.  I loved my commuting in the dark of winter BUT I am 58 and have some things I want to do  BCM, LEL, a few more long distance rides, a Diagonale, and I want to be fitter.  So I have given up commuting at the moment and only ride at the weekend and even then it is a training ride with specific goals.

I will probably aim for a zone 1 commute ride in the New Year as well as the turbo to keep my head in a right place.  I am fortunate that my minimum distance is only 7.5km and can be done in Zone 1 quite happily (and is faster than car in the rush hour).

Thank you all for the support over the last few months on this board as I have got into training.  Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 23, 2016, 02:49:30 pm
the turbo kills all the positive emotions associated with cycling..

I think I share some of my autistic son's preference for structure and predictability. I want to see modifications in my behaviour lead to measurable outcomes. The turbo lets me control and quantify the modifications to my behaviour, and measure the outcomes (plus I'm getting regular blood lactate testing).

I actually like riding on Zwift too. Even before I got a fancy PC and a big screen, I found the environment engaging. I did a 200 on it back when I had it running on a laptop. This time of year, I get from bed to spinning in 30 mins including a couple of cups of tea and a snack. No faffing with cold / wet weather gear. I get the fake warmth of the sunlight effects on screen, and spotify in my ears. I get regular tows, and there are usually around a 1000 other cyclists zooming around. When I'm finished, I can get some food before jumping in a shower without worrying about hypothermia! I'm about to do an hour or so. Looking out the window, Zwift looks much more appealing that the high winds and pelting rain I can see.

Don't get me wrong - there's a satisfaction in putting on the right clothes and getting on the right bike and knocking out some winter miles. However, for me, I ended up just surviving my commute and doing 100km tempo every Sunday, desperately trying to stay warm. Spending last winter on Zwift was a revelation.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 23, 2016, 03:16:18 pm
DrMekon, that is really interesting.  I had not joined Zwift as I did not need another indoor system but looking at the weather front coming in and the wind I do not fancy 3.5 hours on any road near me, especially with Christmas car drivers.  I may give it a shot.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on December 23, 2016, 05:21:04 pm
i guess it depends what one wants out of cycling - fitness, achieving a particular goal, freedom, meditation, social interaction, means of transportation etc.

as turbo trainer doesn't really serve my future goals i struggle to find the motivation to actually use it, i need to shift my mind and convince myself that the pain, discomfort and boredom are worthwhile (http://qz.com/584874/you-probably-know-to-ask-yourself-what-do-i-want-heres-a-way-better-question/?bul=2&&utm_source=fb1221_9).

i don't need to convince myself that it's a good idea to be out cycling in wind and sometimes rain - it's just a part of what i enjoy doing anyway (and i wouldn't want my every ride to be in sunshine and with a tailwind).

really looking forward to tomorrow's xmas social ride, everyone riding real bikes, on real roads, in real wind, chatting and interacting with each other in real time, eye contact, smiles - it is a completely different experience from spending 90 fitness-efficient minutes doing interval blocks on a turbo*..

*i'll get round to using it, some day :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 23, 2016, 09:12:18 pm
DrMekon, that is really interesting.  I had not joined Zwift as I did not need another indoor system but looking at the weather front coming in and the wind I do not fancy 3.5 hours on any road near me, especially with Christmas car drivers.  I may give it a shot.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161223/053dd055142e6e2543cbfa8b9944e7ba.jpg)

Just got to keep an eye out for virtual transport secretaries
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 24, 2016, 11:44:13 am
I'm spending less hours on the turbo this Winter, but at a higher intensity.   My commute is now done at a higher intensity some days and recovery on others.   Overall I can handle the current load.   This sort of training is a necessity for next year's goals which are all based around TTs.   I'm not sure I could deal with it if I were building towards a long audax where speed is less important for me.

I'm weighing in at 10 stone at the minute which I don't think I've been near since my teens.

I hope this is all worth it.   If I hit all the goals I went through with my coach I'll look for something away from the TT world in 2018.

Hope everybody has a good break.   I did 2hrs tempo first thing, will do the same Boxing Day but rest up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 24, 2016, 06:20:42 pm
In the end I did an hour outside in the afternoon.  Just riding some of my favourite hills which got my total TSS for the week to 540 which is just slightly above average for me.  Next week I am planning to do a lot of real work.  (Family and father in law go home)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 24, 2016, 06:43:36 pm
Looks like it's going to be 3 weeks of nothing instead of loads of miles this holiday as I recover from broken ribs  >:(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 24, 2016, 07:00:59 pm
Training properly to resume on 27th. CTL has dropped to 58 but am doing a bit of running to minimise the loss while away.

This time last year CTL was 31 so things are better than last year. I can't remember why but I didn't train much in the second half of January so my CTL was down to 28 then. Aiming to be well ahead of there.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on December 24, 2016, 07:36:47 pm
I think I grok both sides of this. If I had never ridden a real bike - lets say I was a gym bunny who got really into using an exercise bike - then I would follow the science/numbers approach and probably get a lot out of that. (and I do 'leverage' a bit of science-n-numbers in my riding)

But having enjoyed "real" cycling - since a wee bairn - I can safely say I get way more out of it than I ever would in the gym.

If some sort of poor health or injury ever gets me off the roads/trails, I reserve the right to become a Zwift evangelist!

Just to say, I'm not a side of this. For me Zwift / turbo is ace for training. Real cycling, it isn't. You wouldn't go for a bimble around Watopia, no matter how fancy your graphics card. Before I got knocked off, I hadn't touched the turbo since spring. However, my head is pretty messed from my RTA up at the mo', and I can't face playing with traffic. Combine that with Yorkshire weather, and I'm not cycling at the mo - I'm just training.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 26, 2016, 09:40:18 pm
Well i should have done 8x10 at TT pace but it did not happen today.  mental reaction to a Great christmas after a lot of worry about family arguments, etc lead to a complete shut down of systems today.  Normal service will resume tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on December 26, 2016, 10:49:51 pm
did 6 × 7min intervals on tt bike outside, lovely sunshine today. legs still feel shortage of blood after donation last week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 28, 2016, 02:42:01 pm
Back to it yesterday with 3x12 sweet spot and today 3x20 sweet spot (lower - 85% FTP). It was harder work than the same workout two weeks ago after a week's break. I've gone back one week in the programme to allow for the break.

Goal is 300W FTP by summer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 28, 2016, 06:20:42 pm
What do people do about weight training.

I am not talking about massive deadlifts, etc but rather some targeted training.  In past years I have done single leg squats and lunges with a 20kg weight vest.  I have done these instead of a bike session when I was training myself (and you know what an idiot trainer he was).

I would still like to do some sessions as I think they are helpful.  My coach suggested perhaps doing them on a rest day but I think he was mixing them up with a Pilates session(stretching and core) I do on a rest day.

I wondered about adding them in as an extra session just before a rest day.

Any thoughts?

Thank you
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 28, 2016, 06:44:00 pm
Topical for me as I'm trying to add in some weight training. Especially for us older cyclists (40+) it has health benefits to avoiding or at least slowing the age related decline in muscle mass.

My plan is to keep weight training on non rest days for the simple reason that I believe in the view that rest days should be rest days. In order to keep it manageable I'll be doing a three day split which I've worked with before i.e. push, pull, legs/shoulders, and abs/core which can be done on any of the three days. Though the legs day includes shoulder which is a mixture of push and pull.

I'm currently following a 6 days per week cycling plan which has a full rest day on Monday and the easiest non-rest day is Friday. So I could choose to aim to make Friday the legs day then the other days which are not touching legs on harder days.

There is the case often put that you shouldn't do weights and cardio on the same day. However I was googling earlier and found this. http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/workout-tips/should-you-do-weight-training-cardio-same-day - title of the paper is "Concurrent resistance and aerobic exercise stimulates both myofibrillar and mitochondrial protein synthesis in sedentary middle-aged men."

As for what exercises - main legs will be squat, main pulling exercise is deadlift and main pushing bench press. I have noticed a benefit in terms of explosive power from doing this in the past. Downside is increased weight. However low normal BMI is not lowest risk group in older people so it might be a good thing.

Next gym visit will be Friday for legs/shoulders/core day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 28, 2016, 07:42:11 pm
thanks Simon

That is a great help.  I will point my coach to this.

Chris
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 29, 2016, 02:26:12 am
This is a good book to help with planning an effective weight training programme. https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Periodization-Training-Sports-Tudor-Bompa/1450469434/ref=pd_sim_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8D2N6QG8X0AJQ5SDX1AQ (https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Periodization-Training-Sports-Tudor-Bompa/1450469434/ref=pd_sim_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8D2N6QG8X0AJQ5SDX1AQ)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 31, 2016, 12:12:26 pm
good weights session yesterday morning. squats, lunges and some Pilates exercises.  I know it was good as this morning my gluten are really sore.  Also inner thigh muscles as well.  I think this is from doing the single leg squats and sliding lunges which need a larger balance element than double leg squats.

Then developed headache, and runny nose which put paid to the turbo session in the afternoon.  Walk to Breakfast and back for 2 hours gives me a total TSS of 2006 for the month which is my highest ever.

Happy and healthy New Year to you all and look forward to meeting some of you on rides in 2017.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on December 31, 2016, 01:04:09 pm
three rides this week to complete the festive500 challenge and a short run totaling in 622 tss. now - how to carry this momentum into the new year?! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 31, 2016, 01:56:33 pm
Just back from a rowing water session, legs could feel the last few days.

Going to try to do a TR session later but the app auto updated last night and seems to have lost the sweet spot and traditional base plans. The top level menu is there but all the fields say "infinity" and diving in to select a workout => crash.

Ah the joy of auto update being turned on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 31, 2016, 02:12:16 pm
In and out of thinking I've been coming down with the family bug this week.   Shuffled turbo sessions around a bit.   4hrs on the road this morning but couldn't get my HR where I wanted it to be.   Still I covered slightly more distance than I did on the same ride 3 weeks ago and the legs can feel it.

I finish the year with my weight where it needs to be and seem to be making gains.   Day off tomorrow and back on it from Monday.   Hopefully all the TT dates will be published soon and I can write a proper plan out.

Happy New Year.


Rob

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 31, 2016, 02:24:14 pm
Got TR working again by deleting and reinstalling the app which resynced everything cleanly.

The new version has the biggest missing feature I've wanted which is tracking progress through a training plan. It always seemed like an odd omission.

I'm part way into the plan already but according to the documentation you can assign rides you've already completed to your progress.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 03, 2017, 03:44:07 pm
Because of Zwift fail yesterday TSS is off target. So I found a nasty 90m workout to do at lunch time. Glacier - 5x2m, 5x1m, 5x30s. These were at respectively 130, 150 and 180% FTP.

I think the easiest to finish were the final set. Pretty brutal overall.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on January 03, 2017, 05:33:12 pm
Got TR working again by deleting and reinstalling the app which resynced everything cleanly.

The new version has the biggest missing feature I've wanted which is tracking progress through a training plan. It always seemed like an odd omission.

Nice one Simon, app updated & I can finally see the plan progress & next workout :)

Strangely I emailed them in November asking when we might get this feature & they didn't tell me it was almost there despite a very helpful reply
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 03, 2017, 10:31:03 pm
Can't get these bollocking Tuesday intervals right.   Only seem to complete them properly every other week.   Clearly pushing the edge of what I'm capable of at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 04, 2017, 06:59:38 am
Can't get these bollocking Tuesday intervals right.   Only seem to complete them properly every other week.   Clearly pushing the edge of what I'm capable of at the moment.

Without knowing what the actual problem is, maybe increasing the recovery time between intervals? Either that or reduce the intensity a bit is what I do when I can't hit the numbers.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 04, 2017, 08:42:45 am
Can't get these bollocking Tuesday intervals right.   Only seem to complete them properly every other week.   Clearly pushing the edge of what I'm capable of at the moment.

Without knowing what the actual problem is, maybe increasing the recovery time between intervals? Either that or reduce the intensity a bit is what I do when I can't hit the numbers.

Since starting the length of the intervals has increased and the recovery decreased to the point where I can take a deep breath, have a swig of drink and straight back on it.   Last week I hit it bang on so I know it's do-able, but I backed off part way through the 4th rep last night.   I've had trouble getting the pacing right but thought I had cracked it after last week, but I think I'm not quite 100% at the moment.   I'll start a little slower next week and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 04, 2017, 09:05:13 am
Surely if your recovery period is too short then they cease to be intervals! Longer recovery periods mean harder intervals are possible, didn't OBree do something like 5' effort 30' rests?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 04, 2017, 01:33:23 pm
Surely if your recovery period is too short then they cease to be intervals! Longer recovery periods mean harder intervals are possible, didn't OBree do something like 5' effort 30' rests?

Yeah.   This session has gradually got harder week-on-week to the point where it's (roughly) 50mins of hard work with 4 mini breaks interspersed.   I'd already told my coach I was struggling with the session and there's only 1 more planned in this build phase.   I've asked if I should do it easier or can I extend the rest periods back up.

Looking forward to next week as it's an easier week and I'm off to ride an audax on the Saturday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 04, 2017, 06:33:34 pm
First big effort since breaking my rib, quite pleased with that. https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/4822287-ak-billat-5x3 (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/4822287-ak-billat-5x3)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 04, 2017, 06:44:00 pm
very nice
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 04, 2017, 10:12:45 pm
Tonight's 2x30m required a couple of short breaks in the second interval.

Yesterday's extra-hard workout probably to blame. I was only slightly off target overall so no disaster.

3x12m threshold tomorrow. Unless they pull my wisdom tooth that's been bothering me tomorrow, in which case I might need to avoid exercise for a day or two.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 04, 2017, 11:11:25 pm
Had blood lactate testing today. Not got the results yet, but my resting BL was 3.8mmol. I fear I may still be overdoing it.

Have to wait for the results, but looking back over my previous data with my coach (feels weird saying that), he said not to be disheartened if it hasn't gone up much as I'm just in build phase 1, and my Time To Exhaustion has gone up. He's just done a load of training with Joe Friel, and TTE appears to be a new WKO4 metric from Andrew Coggan.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/introduction-of-the-new-time-to-exhaustion-metric-in-wko4

I suspect him saying that means he's already seen I've not gained much in the modeled FTP metric mentioned on that page.Going to discuss what to do for the next 6 weeks tomorrow, but initial plan is to drop the intensity a little (in that I'm failing to complete the last rep of threshold on the hardest days of the hard weeks and increase the volume a bit to hit the desired TSS.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 05, 2017, 12:07:20 am
When you start out and your FTP is X and you increase it to Y. Then you increase the time you can spend at FTP.

It's interesting that you are doing a build plan at this time of year. I'm very much in base for the next several weeks and I may extend that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 05, 2017, 07:41:06 am
Had blood lactate testing today. Not got the results yet, but my resting BL was 3.8mmol.

That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 05, 2017, 07:48:56 am
DrMekon
I suspect I have asked this before but where did you go?
Secondly is it worth it?  I know from a nerdy geeky way it is totally worth it.  But is it worth a day of my time when i could be earning money or training on the bike.  Is it going to give my coach and I anything really useful?

thanks
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 05, 2017, 08:18:35 am
Chris

This may help https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769631/#!po=34.3750 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769631/#!po=34.3750)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 05, 2017, 08:49:46 am
Had blood lactate testing today. Not got the results yet, but my resting BL was 3.8mmol.

That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.
I think he's using a Lactate Scout+, and the pattern is that it drops as I warm up. The numbers I got were realistic in terms of threshold, whereas strava used a 20m test protocol that hugely overestimated what I could do.

I'll ask him about the model he's using and calibration though.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 05, 2017, 09:11:11 am
DrMekon
I suspect I have asked this before but where did you go?
Secondly is it worth it?  I know from a nerdy geeky way it is totally worth it.  But is it worth a day of my time when i could be earning money or training on the bike.  Is it going to give my coach and I anything really useful?

thanks
Hard to say. I work from home a lot, and my coach comes to me, so it's not disruptive. Also, it's part of my coaching, and his prices are very modest. I'd say that it's worth it if you aren't sure of your zones or you find FTP testing aversive / disruptive in the context of your schedule. However, if you don't mind FTP testing and are confident of the protocol you are using, and can motivate yourself to give it your best, I'm not clear what more it offers (I've not looked). Also, I suspect if you are testing regularly, with judicious use of zip ties you could set one up so you could administer it yourself. I suspect with the cost of the device and consumables, you could save yourself money over the usual charge in a year of regular testing.

I'm working with Iain Findlay. He used to work in my LBS and did my bike fittings before he branched out. I really like him, in that he's geeky (we send each other journal articles).

https://painfreepower.com/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 05, 2017, 09:36:08 am
I've not had lactate testing since the one time in 2009. I have had testing using RQ and this seems to be in the same ballpark as the numbers I get from the TrainerRoad 2x8m test.

Generally the TR test has come up with a slightly lower number but the ramp test protocol steps by 20W and they can't really say 270W or 275W. When I got 280W and used that in TR I spent the next month struggling in workouts. I then tested in TR and got 276W, so given the month of training I'd probably been. between 270-275W.

What you get from LT or RQ testing is more than just a single number, for instance the RQ tests indicated a substantially improved fat burning at low intensity after doing a sweet spot base plan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 05, 2017, 07:47:45 pm
Thank you.  I think I won't bother as I am seeing good steady gains and I don't think it would add much at my level of training.

Started trying to up the power work and have started doing a weights session at the opposite end of the day to the turbo session.  Legs feel heavy but seem to be coping so at the moment I plan to continue.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 05, 2017, 08:00:27 pm
5x10' @ 101%FTP today. Very pleased with that considering I had over 2 weeks off. I'll see how the next 2 weeks go and if all is well I'll probably up my TR FTP setting by 5%. My anaerobic threshold HR seems to be 3-4 BPM higher than this time last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 05, 2017, 08:32:57 pm
I suspect your FTP is set too low.

I did 3x12m undulating intervals between 95-99% FTP. Legs felt heavy initially but it was ok once I'd settled in.

422 TSS in 4 days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 06, 2017, 07:18:05 am
I suspect your FTP is set too low.

5x10' @101% with 5' recoveries is perfectly doable, although very hard, but you are correct, my FTP is a little low based on my sessions leading up to my crash. I was about to increase it then but will wait a bit now. I suppose if you use a smart turbo that controls the resistance for you then an accurate FTP is important, with a basic fluid one you can easily (?) just work a bit harder. All my intervals are done at the maximum effort I can manage based on duration/reps/recovery, no point doing a 10' session at an intensity less than what you could do for a 25 m TT (which is what your FTP is) in my opinion.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 07, 2017, 01:39:04 pm

That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.

Hmm - thanks for flagging this. I mentioned this to him, and he asked me to list what meds I'm on. I've started googling, and type B lactic acidosis looks possible - I'm on a load of the meds implicated. I've emailed a prof in pharmacy for advice, and have an appt with my respiratory consultant in mid feb. My treatment seems very aggressive to me (on 12 meds currently, and had to resist being put on a 13th, which is why he called me back - he's worried about my waking at night, constant heartburn, and subjective chest tightness). Colleagues have expressed concern about the amount of drugs I'm on, and I have said before that the answer always seems to be more drugs. I've asked for tests before and for physio for my lung condition. I must chase these up.

If this proves to be the case, I shall be very grateful for the early warning - by the sounds of it, you can get in to quite a spiral if you go down this path.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 07, 2017, 05:21:59 pm
Rest day yesterday and 4x15' @ 95-99% today but couldn't hit the target power for the last two intervals but a good hard session nevertheless. HR still  higher than expected but that's possibly due to the 2 weeks off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 07, 2017, 05:28:37 pm
DrMekon I hope it's not, it sounds like you don't need any more issues! GWS
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 08, 2017, 02:44:22 pm
Struggled with the last set today. Yesterday was rowing training plus a trip to London on the motorbike so felt tired this morning.

Going to finish this 7 day cycle with an easy workout later, rest day tomorrow.

Also, I'm starving.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on January 08, 2017, 03:32:48 pm



That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.

Hmm - thanks for flagging this. I mentioned this to him, and he asked me to list what meds I'm on. I've started googling, and type B lactic acidosis looks possible - I'm on a load of the meds implicated. I've emailed a prof in pharmacy for advice, and have an appt with my respiratory consultant in mid feb. My treatment seems very aggressive to me (on 12 meds currently, and had to resist being put on a 13th, which is why he called me back - he's worried about my waking at night, constant heartburn, and subjective chest tightness). Colleagues have expressed concern about the amount of drugs I'm on, and I have said before that the answer always seems to be more drugs. I've asked for tests before and for physio for my lung condition. I must chase these up.

If this proves to be the case, I shall be very grateful for the early warning - by the sounds of it, you can get in to quite a spiral if you go down this path.

i'm of the opinion that human body tends to fix itself, given the right environment/conditions. what would happen if you stopped taking pills? (not that i would advise doing that)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 08, 2017, 04:47:10 pm



That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.

Hmm - thanks for flagging this. I mentioned this to him, and he asked me to list what meds I'm on. I've started googling, and type B lactic acidosis looks possible - I'm on a load of the meds implicated. I've emailed a prof in pharmacy for advice, and have an appt with my respiratory consultant in mid feb. My treatment seems very aggressive to me (on 12 meds currently, and had to resist being put on a 13th, which is why he called me back - he's worried about my waking at night, constant heartburn, and subjective chest tightness). Colleagues have expressed concern about the amount of drugs I'm on, and I have said before that the answer always seems to be more drugs. I've asked for tests before and for physio for my lung condition. I must chase these up.

If this proves to be the case, I shall be very grateful for the early warning - by the sounds of it, you can get in to quite a spiral if you go down this path.

i'm of the opinion that human body tends to fix itself, given the right environment/conditions. what would happen if you stopped taking pills? (not that i would advise doing that)
I have a genetic condition that means my lungs scar when I get chest infections. The scars also increase the likelihood of infections, and over time, the lung can sag at these points and become pockets of infection that need to be removed surgically. You can end up losing half a lung. I already had mild scarring through both lungs when I was diagnosed.

I have asthma, and am highly atopic (snotty). These things also put me at risk. Before my boss at work got new scanned, I was having about 6 chest infections a year.

Since I've been treated aggressively, I've had one chest infection. That's in over two years. My lung function is really good (about 33% better than it should be for someone my age / height). The side effects and the burden of managing my treatment is a pain, but my uncle died of emphysema, and the last 10+ years of his life looked awful. I want to avoid that.

My current consultant seems to throw lots of drugs at me. However, he's kept my peak flow up, and I'm not having lung problems. Relative to his normal clients (old men who can barely walk across the room), I fear he wonders why I bug him about side effects so much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on January 08, 2017, 06:56:51 pm
i see, hmm. if all the pills are taken to prevent chest infection, how would you know when you no longer need to take the meds? anyway it's off-topic and i wish you the best health for the future! 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 08, 2017, 09:55:40 pm
Because I still have the genetic condition (it won't go away), and various markers of the condition are present, and improved on treatment.

I'm familiar with iatrogenic disease, and much as I think a healthy lifestyle is the best medicine for most things, the condition I have (bronciectasis) isn't something to mess about with or be relaxed about. I am really lucky to have been caught so early. I know people with the condition who are awaiting lung transplant.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 11, 2017, 08:38:49 pm
Rubbish couple of days. Zwift failed me on Sunday so I did hill repeats outside which was fun. Then Monday work put paid to exercise, Tuesday my heart was not in it and this morning I was 20down on TSS compared to last time doing same session.

Fortunately able to leave office at 20:00 tonight so straight to bed.   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 11, 2017, 09:07:43 pm
Been feeling under the weather this week. As for zwift, sounds like they are having problems!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 12, 2017, 10:28:12 am
Think I've got a cold.  >:(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 12, 2017, 10:50:16 am
Think my cold has finally gone.   Completed Tuesday's turbo session properly for the first time in a while, but now adapting for the rest of the week.

Long steady ride planned in the cold for Saturday - should be about 120miles all in.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 12, 2017, 11:50:03 am
I've only trained once - Tuesday water rowing session - since the weekend. I tried to get out of that but ended up still going due to lack of numbers.

I'm entered into a 200k a week on Saturday so hopefully will be sufficiently back to normal by then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 12, 2017, 12:30:22 pm
Back to it after a restful week. I had gone from "cant have a day off the bike" to "I can't wait for another rest day / easy week".

This week is like the last cycle, but then next week and the week after are a bit chunky - suspect I will be struggling on the hard days. However, for now, even the hideous low rpm SST session is fun.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 12, 2017, 03:11:42 pm
Yesterday was a rest day after a four day block consisting of 4x15', 5x10', 4x8' and finally a Billat 5x3'. Today is day one of the next four day block which is the same four sessions but in reverse order. After failing to hit my targets in Monday's 4x8', Tuesday was hard but achievable and today was a 5x3 power PB so it looks like I am back to where I was before the break.

I now feel confident in upping my FTP, maybe by 8W initially and see how the LI sessions go.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 12, 2017, 03:45:33 pm
You're all doing an awful lot of threshold/high intensity stuff.   I'm only doing 2 turbo sessions a week.

How many hours a week are you all doing in total ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 12, 2017, 04:00:48 pm
If I was feeling 100%, this week would be 9h, two threshold workouts (Tuesday and Thursday).

Tuesday - 12x 3m threshold.
Wednesday - 3x20m tempo.
Thursday - 4x8m threshold + 5s sprints.
Friday - 1h endurance.
Saturday - 6x8m sweet-spot with hard starts@ 200% FTP for 12s.
Sunday - 3h endurance.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on January 12, 2017, 04:12:20 pm
And how much on the road?

(I'd say for me that much turbo time would be massively overtraining for this time of year and I would be completely burnt out by the time I actually wanted results in the real world in May / June / July)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 12, 2017, 04:23:00 pm
And how much on the road?

(I'd say for me that much turbo time would be massively overtraining for this time of year and I would be completely burnt out by the time I actually wanted results in the real world in May / June / July)

Same here.

I'm doing :-
 
- 10hrs of commuting - not junk miles but aiming to be in endurance/low end tempo bands using an HRM.
- a 4-6hr road ride at a weekend
- 2 turbo sessions of approx. an hour.   I'd call them both top end tempo/threshold.

Call it 16-17hrs a week

Key races are really June/July.    I properly overcooked it last Winter and paid the price with some below-par races.

No idea what the next few weeks will bring as I only get sent the plan week-by-week.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 12, 2017, 04:30:16 pm
And it's the 2 turbo sessions that I hate more than anything.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on January 12, 2017, 04:36:53 pm
with my key events at the end of july, i think it's still to early to start structured training. might be starting from base2 from around march. so far just keep doing some longer rides at easy and moderate pace.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on January 12, 2017, 04:38:24 pm
As my top priority right now is weight loss (I'll worry about enjoying cycling again if I still feel like this in April) I'm not even doing much LSD- it generates an appetite for more calories than it burns off.
Commuting is when I can, (and CBA) and I really can't count that as it's pretty much all downhill. Or on a bridge  ;)
Lighter evenings it'll start counting as I'll ride home- as that's (obviously) uphill all the way.

3 Turbo sessions (totalling 4 hours MAX) and probably 3 resistance sessions and that's more than enough.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 12, 2017, 05:25:52 pm
About 7.5 hours training per week including 3 hour ride at weekend.  I am also adding in some weights and pilates sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lady Cavendish on January 12, 2017, 05:34:18 pm
I think some people just find the turbo easier than others. I am a complete pussy in the cold and tend to hide inside a lot. I'd always prefer to ride outdoors and do where possible but I have no problems sitting on a turbo for several sessions a week if needs be. I honestly don't ever have any motivation issues, I love it. Some people really hate it. In the same way I hate the idea of a MTB!

My week looks something like
Mon- 90 min ride am, 60 mins pm plus 45 min run lunchtime
Tuesday- speed running session (hour) plus body pump am, 60 min ride pm
Weds- 90 min ride am, 45 min lunchtime run, turbo session of death pm
Thurs- 2 x GRIT classes am, spinning lunchtime (though don't go hard), running club evening
Friday- turbo session of death am, run and body pump pm
Saturday- 2+ hour run
Sunday- long ride (4-7 hours)

I tend to do this year round really, (Oct and Nov are easier months with less interval stuff) except when spring/summer comes, things get taken out/moved for racing. If I race on a Saturday (running obv this time of year) I move the long run to Weds morning. If the weather is shite, I will do all the rides on a turbo and be fine with it. There are only 2 'proper' turbo sessions in my week though, plus a running 'session'  :-[
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 12, 2017, 06:49:47 pm
How much on the road? I'd do the 3h long ride on a Sunday on the road. I'm not commuting (3.5h round trip - not in winter) so total volume is much lower than rob's.

FTP is testing higher than just before last PBP for which I trained far more outdoors.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 12, 2017, 07:30:11 pm
9h13m this week. That's a 540TSS week. No road. Goes up to 13.5hrs and 650TSS week after next. All less volume but more intensity and more rest than last year.

Mentally, it's all good for me. Listen to spotify, podcasts, watch Roadkill...

Lady Cav... chapeau. Last year taught me that I can dig myself in to a hole, notice the unfamiliar surroundings, and keep digging. I wish I had your resilience. Sadly, the colleague, who I ride with, has similar capacity. I have to accept I do not.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on January 12, 2017, 08:01:47 pm
I've had some sinus/snot/head thing going on since New Year, so I've done precisely NOWT for at least a couple of weeks (save for a bit of walking).

I'll start again once it doesn't feel like my eyeballs are going to explode whenever my HR increases  :hand:.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 12, 2017, 08:59:26 pm
Last year I did more hours with 3 turbo sessions totalling about 4hrs per work, but commuting was junk mileage.   Seems to be more quality this year as long as I do as I'm told.

have spent many years learning to suffer on the bike over long distances but going eyeballs out is just so different.

Probably why I'm crap at 10s & 25s.

I got close to the entry to my pain cave once, but bought something in the souvenir shop and caught the bus home.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 12, 2017, 09:30:06 pm
You're all doing an awful lot of threshold/high intensity stuff.   I'm only doing 2 turbo sessions a week.

How many hours a week are you all doing in total ?

Currently it's only 6-7 hours a week, hence they all have to count. Sort of matching what I did last year following my broken hand, only this year I will put more long rides from March, a reverse periodisation programme type of thing.

Although it is said by some that you can't do high intensity intervals day after day without the intensity dropping I find I can. It needs a huge amount of motivation though, I find them much easier to do first thing in the morning at 5:30am because I don't have time to fear the pain. The workouts are a very specific design though, based on Seiler and Billat's research, maybe I have just hit on something that works for me?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 12, 2017, 09:36:39 pm
And how much on the road?

(I'd say for me that much turbo time would be massively overtraining for this time of year and I would be completely burnt out by the time I actually wanted results in the real world in May / June / July)

Nothing on the road for another 3 weeks until my broken rib is healed enough. My main targets this year are the Cambridge Chrono (to qualify for the UCI Masters in France) and the National 12h. The Cambridge Chrono course has a couple of hills on it so I need to lose 10kg to have a reasonable chance there.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 12, 2017, 10:00:01 pm
feeling better tonight.  repeated a workout from 1 month ago.  NP up by 5% and a new record 1 minute power.  Took a much more controlled approach to the high intensity intervals.  I needed to know what my minute power was if properly paced and tonight I think I managed it.  I now have something to work on and build.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 12, 2017, 10:04:24 pm
You're all doing an awful lot of threshold/high intensity stuff.   I'm only doing 2 turbo sessions a week.

How many hours a week are you all doing in total ?

Currently it's only 6-7 hours a week, hence they all have to count. Sort of matching what I did last year following my broken hand, only this year I will put more long rides from March, a reverse periodisation programme type of thing.

Although it is said by some that you can't do high intensity intervals day after day without the intensity dropping I find I can. It needs a huge amount of motivation though, I find them much easier to do first thing in the morning at 5:30am because I don't have time to fear the pain. The workouts are a very specific design though, based on Seiler and Billat's research, maybe I have just hit on something that works for me?

My 3 hard sessions a week have me hurting for a couple of days.   When I started my long ride was on a Sunday and it compromised my Tuesday turbo session.  I couldn't do hard sessions day after day, but maybe my coach would change the sessions if they were for consecutive days.   I'm impressed by your commitment.

I stopped doing my 5am sessions as I simply couldn't sleep before them.   Evenings seem to work better at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 13, 2017, 10:28:57 am
Whatever is going on with me I'm very heavy legged this morning. Cycled to the station (10 miles) and my legs had no energy.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on January 13, 2017, 10:37:31 am
Whatever is going on with me I'm very heavy legged this morning. Cycled to the station (10 miles) and my legs had no energy.

Not sure if you monitor HRV/RHR - my Fitbit does RHR each day, and I had a good four days warning that I was getting sick:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/723/32242971176_0c55bcd9d8.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/R8cE19)

The day it reached 66 was the first day I started feeling ill.

(Yeah, I know - there's something almost CDC-ish about the spike; am I in the wrong thread?)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 13, 2017, 11:03:32 am
Whatever is going on with me I'm very heavy legged this morning. Cycled to the station (10 miles) and my legs had no energy.

I got really cold/wet on the ride home last night.   I had to be helped out of my kit when I got home.

Legs felt very ropey this morning.   I'm shuffling tomorrows long ride onto more main roads and will likely flake on the lanesy audax I have entered.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 13, 2017, 11:16:57 am
We have Withings scales which do heart rate. My morning HR peaked early in the week and has been falling since. I'm going to try to have an easier weekend to get back to normal. I've volunteered to cox tomorrow which will reduce fatigue levels further compared to rowing and is also useful experience.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 15, 2017, 09:37:09 pm
Last day of a four day block was 4x15' and I died 5' into the last interval but overall (over the four days) the numbers were good. The next three weeks are going to be more of a polarised approach starting with a very easy hour tomorrow spinning below LT1.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on January 16, 2017, 05:06:45 pm
How do people typically integrate TrainerRoad with real outdoor rides?

Do you go for one of the higher load training plans & replace some of the rides with outdoor rides? or do you go for a smaller load training plan & add in outdoor rides as you want?

I've seen the talk about TTS, do you approximate that for outdoor rides, or ignore outdoor rides?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 16, 2017, 06:37:07 pm
I try to do the former.

Edit: what TrainerRoad advise themselves is that do 'quality' work inside - such as intervals. Workouts which are hours of steady riding can be done outside without changing the nature of the work too far.

Chad Timmerman who designs the plans says he cannot do the long steady workouts indoors - the most he can stand is about 2h.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 16, 2017, 06:45:04 pm
There isn't a way to upload work done outdoors. You can tick them off in the planner as done outdoors. They do plan to add the upload facility. This might make me consider dropping TrainingPeaks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 16, 2017, 07:06:56 pm
How do people typically integrate TrainerRoad with real outdoor rides?

Do you go for one of the higher load training plans & replace some of the rides with outdoor rides? or do you go for a smaller load training plan & add in outdoor rides as you want?

I've seen the talk about TTS, do you approximate that for outdoor rides, or ignore outdoor rides?

I don't use the TR plans so it's easy to integrate TR rides with outdoor rides. My plan is on paper/spreadsheet and my ride data is stored in GoldenCheetah which can quite happily cope with all ride types. As most of my outdoor rides are sans power meter I use the HR based TRIMP rather than the power based TSS for monitoring training load.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 16, 2017, 08:08:40 pm
Bad couple of days.  Sunday was supposed to be a turbo session which did not get done as we had friends with us and then today was supposed to be a long outside ride on a day off.  Then a couple of phone calls turned into 4 hours then i got stuck in a good book and the ride did not happen.

That is life.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on January 16, 2017, 08:19:05 pm
Er, yeah.
Training peaks over the weekend gave me a TSS of (not a typo) 3348.7 for a 5km row based on my HR.

Then today the bloody Garmin told me I need 19 hours to recover from riding up Ormesby Bank on my commute home. Actually, that may be about right.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 16, 2017, 08:56:25 pm
Chiba - I've generally found TP to give high values but by those I mean 750TSS for a 200k based on hrTSS. That seems high. A water rowing session of 1h-90m giving around 50. Maybe that number is not so unrealistic.

I don't know how their formula works but if it's based on either HRmax or threshold HR are these set correctly in your profile.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 16, 2017, 09:07:57 pm
How do people typically integrate TrainerRoad with real outdoor rides?

Do you go for one of the higher load training plans & replace some of the rides with outdoor rides? or do you go for a smaller load training plan & add in outdoor rides as you want?

I've seen the talk about TTS, do you approximate that for outdoor rides, or ignore outdoor rides?
I can't remember what training Peaks did, but I think it's the same - if I tell today's plan about an event, it cuts the intensity and volume right back, and puts in a short activation ride the day before.

Today's plan is estimating 630 for Sunday's 200 - I've only got two 18tss recovery rides and a brief 50tss activation ride to do and I'm done.

Don't know what to do with myself!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 17, 2017, 09:42:20 pm
I'm back. Dropped FTP by 10W to account for a week off. Heavy legs from Saturday are gone. I'll skip Friday as riding a 200k on Saturday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: valkyrie on January 22, 2017, 12:45:02 pm
My old Tacx iFlow died back in November and after a prolonged wait for delivery from Tredz I've finally got a new Tacx Flux. The Flux worked fine with the App on my iPad, but a few questions I hope somebody knows the answers to -

1. For a given wattage the Flux is much harder work than the iFlow. Am I right to assume that the Flux is likely to be the more accurate meter and I should just accept I'm not as powerful as I thought I was? I was quite surprised that the Flux had a calibration function but it doesn't seem to change much.
2. What's the best way to connect in an HR meter? My old HR chest straps don't work with the Flux, so I guess I need a Bluetooth chest strap to connect straight to the iPad. Is that right? And is there a "best buy" in bluetooth chest straps?
3. Cadence - much to my surprise the Flux gives a cadence value without having a direct measurement. Seems quite slow to respond and I'm wondering if I should also get a Bluetooth Cadence sensor? Would that work?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: offcumden on January 22, 2017, 04:38:06 pm
? And is there a "best buy" in bluetooth chest straps?

I use a Decathlon belt with my KK smart app.  Works just fine and was £27.99 rather than £62.99 for the KK version.
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ant-bluetooth-smart-hrm-id_8334795.html   - Prices may have gone up a tad since then.

Quote
3. Cadence - much to my surprise the Flux gives a cadence value without having a direct measurement. Seems quite slow to respond and I'm wondering if I should also get a Bluetooth Cadence sensor? Would that work?

Likewise, the KK app cadence readings are not very accurate - although they seem to have improved with software tweaks.  I just use a cheap h/b computer to give me an accurate cadence reading.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 22, 2017, 08:44:48 pm
Still on target with new power bests for 10', 60' and 90' this weekend. Just another three weeks to go of the exclusively indoor diet then 12 days of hotel gyms (hopefully at least every third hotel may have one) for an adaption "week". After which I should be ready to go back on the road! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 23, 2017, 07:55:57 am
I just bought the cheapest bluetooth HR strap on amazon.  Works perfectly.  Only thing they seem to scrimp on is the battery and I needed to replace it after about a month.

i think all the systems which use the force generation in the turbo to measure cadence are inaccurate.  If the bike is rocking because i am pushing a big gear then the cadence can be wildly out.  I invested in a decent cadence monitor as well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 23, 2017, 02:52:16 pm
weirdly great morning.  1 hour in watopia climbing that the antenna at which point 2 pallets of bagged horse manure arrived.  That was then moved up the incline of the drive and laid out in various places for 1:45 hours followed by another 1:55 in watopia.  Gives me a TSS for the morning of 350!

Now I cannot get my HR under 120!

And all done fasted apart from 3 cups of coffee.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 23, 2017, 03:05:06 pm
So I mostly completed last week on target, probably 50 TSS below.

That's ok.

I'm thinking I need to repeat the FTP test tomorrow to see where I really am.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on January 23, 2017, 10:32:31 pm
did a short test for pedaling efficiency on a wattbike today and as i understand it there is not much room for improvement, which is both good and bad (i.e. no quick wins here)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170123/3fe8e93c3bf2aac91565bab9c1d075c2.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on January 24, 2017, 01:05:28 pm
did a short test for pedaling efficiency on a wattbike today and as i understand it there is not much room for improvement, which is both good and bad (i.e. no quick wins here)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170123/3fe8e93c3bf2aac91565bab9c1d075c2.jpg)

Based on my own experience I'd have to agree, good job.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 24, 2017, 08:44:34 pm
New FTP 268. Up 2W since last test. Given I've had two separate weeks off and that was before Christmas I call that a win.

Ow, though. That hurt.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on January 24, 2017, 10:09:44 pm
Today appears to be FTP day.... mine was down by 5W :(

Onward and upwards...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on January 24, 2017, 10:11:45 pm
I was supposed to do one, but it's incompatible with a 20km hill walk.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on January 24, 2017, 10:32:30 pm
I left it all day and finally gave in around 18:00 - I blame it being 'at night' for the drop in performance lol

(Happy Birthday btw!)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 24, 2017, 11:51:12 pm
Today appears to be FTP day.... mine was down by 5W :(

Onward and upwards...

So now the question:

 - did it drop because you are not training enough
 - or because you're training too much

Also if you were not very fresh, don't immediately assume you would not have done better on a better day.

I'm slightly scared of my increase as I'd been struggling a bit with FTP of 266 and dropped it to 255. Now the test says it' 268 so I might start to struggle again.  :-\
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 25, 2017, 12:54:57 am
And as if by magic http://bit.ly/2j2gutQ - versions of some plans are now available with the long rides replaced by shorter sweet spot alternatives.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on January 25, 2017, 09:18:19 am
Today appears to be FTP day.... mine was down by 5W :(

Onward and upwards...

So now the question:

 - did it drop because you are not training enough
 - or because you're training too much

Also if you were not very fresh, don't immediately assume you would not have done better on a better day.

I'm slightly scared of my increase as I'd been struggling a bit with FTP of 266 and dropped it to 255. Now the test says it' 268 so I might start to struggle again.  :-\

Its probably a bit of a combo of a different time of day and a little bit of fatigue from Saturdays 200km

Last night test, FTP 231:
(https://5-t.imgbox.com/Kx2GeVPZ.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/Kx2GeVPZ)

Previous, FTP 235:
(https://6-t.imgbox.com/OaYYmWKG.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/OaYYmWKG)

I carried a lot of fatigue from the Rapha 500 over Xmas but thought I had mostly got over it
(https://8-t.imgbox.com/qsKDyG1B.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/qsKDyG1B)
(https://0-t.imgbox.com/rsE4NtPt.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/rsE4NtPt)

Interestingly I was initially disappointed to see only getting to a 'fitness level' of about 100 but looking at last years data  I am getting to where I was at the end of 2016 in a lot less time, so the training must pay off in some way.  What I don't necessarily have is the FTP data points (I didnt do much testing last year - and what testing I did do was a mix of protocols)

(https://6-t.imgbox.com/pq2isrB9.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/pq2isrB9)

I'm still struggling with what to do where I have audax and training combining for a big TSS, at the moment I am just planning to bounce/pause the training plan sessions along few days and picking back up where I left off on the plan but I don't know how this works in real life?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 25, 2017, 09:51:00 am
The plans are deliberately not a calendar. So you could for example do an easier week selecting workouts a la carte and they are not recorded as part of the plan. Then return to the plan once more recovered.

A 200k at the weekend is quite likely to still be weighing down a little.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on January 25, 2017, 12:16:58 pm
Today appears to be FTP day.... mine was down by 5W :(

Onward and upwards...

So now the question:

 - did it drop because you are not training enough
 - or because you're training too much

Also if you were not very fresh, don't immediately assume you would not have done better on a better day.

I'm slightly scared of my increase as I'd been struggling a bit with FTP of 266 and dropped it to 255. Now the test says it' 268 so I might start to struggle again.  :-\

This is training though no?

When my MMP on the Wattbike went from 410 to 433 to 466 watts over the course of 4 months, for sure it hurt for the first week then after as your body adapts it does get easier - this is essentially what training is.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 26, 2017, 09:14:48 am
And as if by magic http://bit.ly/2j2gutQ - versions of some plans are now available with the long rides replaced by shorter sweet spot alternatives.

Now this is really attractive to me - I have a 2hr endurance scheduled for tomorrow, but it will mean a really hectic morning - looking on TP, I can get the same TSS from SST and save 40 minutes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on January 26, 2017, 09:53:00 am
Surely the endurance is training a different aspect of your fitness (I hate that word, it's so woolly as to be almost meaningless) than the sweet spot training?

None Few of us regular audaxers need much in the way of endurance training mind. Not that I'm a regular audaxer at the moment. 4 months off (and counting) that first 100km is going to hurt.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 26, 2017, 11:05:53 am
SS is supposedly giving a little bit of everything. Not all plans will have long rides replaced by SST. For instance not the century speciality plan.

I'd switch the SS version in if time is limited and/or weather doesn't allow an outdoor ride. I can't see myself doing 3h endurance inside.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 26, 2017, 02:12:37 pm
Just had a look at the revised SS High Volume II.

Scared.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on January 26, 2017, 06:26:49 pm
First proper turbo session since New Year lurgy.

Ebbetts.

Ouch.

That's all I have to say about that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 26, 2017, 08:05:08 pm
First proper turbo session since New Year lurgy.

Ebbetts.

Ouch.

That's all I have to say about that.

It's not the sprints that are the problem, it's the following seconds trying to keep going at near threshold intensity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on January 26, 2017, 08:35:31 pm
First proper turbo session since New Year lurgy.

Ebbetts.

Ouch.

That's all I have to say about that.

It's not the sprints that are the problem, it's the following seconds trying to keep going at near threshold intensity.

Damn right. I couldn't have done a fifth set - which is of course, the point.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 29, 2017, 05:20:50 pm
Where do you all stand on recovery rides ?

I have 1 full day off a week, but just spun my legs for 5 mins after putting race bike back on the turbo.   I was wondering if spinning on a low resistance for 30 mins would help.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 29, 2017, 05:34:57 pm
I am no expert but I do find a low low intensity spin just help stretch things out. I also try to do my stretches for a decent length of time. E.g. 3 minutes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JamieD on January 30, 2017, 11:28:32 am
I'm wondering if I'm getting something wrong with how I'm using TrainerRoad.

I've been doing Sweet Spot Base High Volume I with my FTP set correctly and it just feels like it's using up a lot of time for workouts that feel (and are) less strenuous than my commute.

If I've been doing a 200K audax every other week plus commuting and club rides would it make more sense to just switch over to the Sustained Power Build.

I get that it's done on TSS and that if I do Sweet Spot Base High Volume I, I should be hitting 522 TSS/week (not that I ever do the 3 hour weekend on the trainer) and Sustained Power Build High Volume is 463 Tss/week so they should be roughly equivalent. It just doesn't feel like that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on January 30, 2017, 09:35:28 pm
did a 20min ftp test today, which resulted the ftp of 274w, which is what i would expect for this time of year. i could have perhaps pushed it to 280w if i nailed it, but definitely not more than that.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170130/50f3c918659c855fbe991bd0a1a5a8f2.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on January 30, 2017, 09:42:13 pm
Nice.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on January 31, 2017, 09:21:21 am
Where do you all stand on recovery rides ?

I have 1 full day off a week, but just spun my legs for 5 mins after putting race bike back on the turbo.   I was wondering if spinning on a low resistance for 30 mins would help.

I do 45m of 120w at 100rpm. My legs def feel better/looser straight after and the next day compared to rest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 31, 2017, 07:58:03 pm
Where do you all stand on recovery rides ?

I have 1 full day off a week, but just spun my legs for 5 mins after putting race bike back on the turbo.   I was wondering if spinning on a low resistance for 30 mins would help.

I do 45m of 120w at 100rpm. My legs def feel better/looser straight after and the next day compared to rest.

Ta.  Will give that a go. 

I have been steadily upping the resistance on the turbo since starting my programme and have been warming down by slowly reducing cadence.   Tonight, though, I turned the resistance down to 1 and span out at a higher cadence for a while.

First new session for a while tonight.  Under/overs with varying interval times and intensities.   Started out a bit optimistically and paid for it at the end.   Little light headed now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on February 05, 2017, 05:57:54 pm
had to do a session of 5 x 10min at 240-260w and couldn't complete the last two due to lack of energy and overheating. excuses - did not have any breakfast, went to a spinning class for a warm-up (took it easy), then did a session on a wattbike in a gym, which is great, however there are no fans in front of wattbikes and i got way too hot when doing intervals.
i will either talk to the gym about installing fans (which i think is unlikely) or i will have to continue training at home..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 06, 2017, 03:38:21 pm
Found yesterday's 4hr ride pretty hard.   RPE was fine, ave speed higher than it has been for the same bike and roads all Winter.   Couldn't old my HR in zone at all.

May have been the cold or could be fatigue.   I do seem to feel the cold a lot more at my current weight.

A few more days of commuting and a couple of turbo sessions this week then off work for the week and away with the family for a few days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 06, 2017, 06:31:58 pm
I have been experimenting with recovery rides, no ride rest days and 3-4 day consecutive interval sessions. Basically I find no statistical difference in my performance based on power output or HR. A two day enforced complete rest did however make a big difference to performance, which was surprising. That was my first two day rest of the year but I have a 12 day business trip coming up and I will aim to do one HIIT session every three days assuming the hotels on those days have gyms.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on February 06, 2017, 10:40:38 pm
had to do a session of 5 x 10min at 240-260w and couldn't complete the last two due to lack of energy and overheating. excuses - did not have any breakfast, went to a spinning class for a warm-up (took it easy), then did a session on a wattbike in a gym, which is great, however there are no fans in front of wattbikes and i got way too hot when doing intervals.
i will either talk to the gym about installing fans (which i think is unlikely) or i will have to continue training at home..

Fans help me a lot at Wattbike.  I'll be into the "red zone" by the end of the warm-up without fans to cool me down.  It's excess body heat that has me struggling to finish a session more than legs/lungs.

Tonight's main effort was 10 minutes in Zone 5 at 60 rpm and then 10 minutes in Zone 5 at 90 rpm.  As we move through the program the recovery time is spent more and more in Zone 3 than in the actual recovery zone.  I know I'm improving because my heart rate is comeing down even in Zone 3 now.  When I started Wattbike Zone 3 for any length of time was an achievement in itself.

I have a 20 minute FTP re-test in 2 weeks.  I'm already getting nervous.  Anyone who's been though it will understand.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on February 07, 2017, 02:57:24 pm


I have a 20 minute FTP re-test in 2 weeks.  I'm already getting nervous.  Anyone who's been though it will understand.

always good fun (type 2)!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 07, 2017, 04:08:11 pm
Been run down for the last week or so and failed to complete any workouts. Both that I did try I stopped before half way.

Feeling back to normal today. May try something later.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on February 07, 2017, 05:02:44 pm


I have a 20 minute FTP re-test in 2 weeks.  I'm already getting nervous.  Anyone who's been though it will understand.

always good fun (type 2)!

Possibly Type 2 fun, but it would be against at least one convention to actually force people to do it.

I'd describe as:

2 minutes of "This isn't going to be that bad"
2 minutes of "This may be worse than I originally thought"
5 minutes of "I'm really never going to get to the end of this..I'm not even half way and I think my heart is going to burst"
8 hours (actually minutes) of "F-fecks' sake this is hurting .. why are these minutes taking so long?"
2 minutes of "grunt..sob...Owwwww...Mummy..help me...sob..Owwww...I'm definitely going to quit now"
1 minute of "I can't hear anything any more...should I walk towards that beautiful white light or away from it?"

..then 5 minutes of slumping over the bars whilst the instructor shouts something about keep spinning those legs..lactic acid..blah blah.

...then 5 minutes of mopping the bike and floor.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on February 08, 2017, 04:58:48 pm
I've had back trouble and last nights 'big gear' strength efforts were awful, so I gave up.

I've a horrible feeling I'm still completely buggered from Saturday's 100km- I'm sleeping badly and my HR is way higher than I would expect on RPE.


31st March is in or out date and I'm almost half way there, and not feeling very 'in'.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 08, 2017, 10:22:17 pm
My motivation has come and gone but it's the last 3 days of this build then an easy week.   This is keeping me going.   Week off work next week as well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on February 12, 2017, 10:51:19 am
A 670TSS week just in Zwift. I am 'king glad that's over.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 12, 2017, 12:44:30 pm
Away for the weekend in snowy Aberdeen and I pull my calf muscle just walking!  Aaaargh. Getting middle aged is so annoying.

I was really looking forward to the next few weeks of build and 5 days in Tenerife with bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on February 19, 2017, 10:11:27 am
A 670TSS week just in Zwift. I am 'king glad that's over.

and 726TSS this week... rest week due :)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 19, 2017, 10:44:45 am
Should have been a 600+ week but the need to do funeral eulogy for tomorrow and probate form and send keys to council means no long ride today.

Should be back next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on February 19, 2017, 12:25:43 pm
I've joined the gym.

Already doing wonders. It's appalling how much difference an audience makes.

Quote from: fboab
sorry, but you'll probably want to move your jacket. This sweat is getting everywhere  :-[
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 19, 2017, 12:55:56 pm
Only managed two one hour interval sessions on hotel gym bikes in the last fortnight. Most days I was thwarted by rubbish gyms, gyms that didn't open until after I had to leave, or pollution so bad I daren't breath too hard. Still, my broken rib is now healed sufficiently that I'll risk a few commutes next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 19, 2017, 07:28:14 pm
Week off work with a bit of rest, a few 2hr rides, a bit of country walking and a bit too much food.   Topped off by a visit to the London Bike Show today wher Graeme Obree signed my copy of Flying Scotsman.  Lovely guy and they only gave him a 40 minute Q&A slot.

8 weeks of hard work now through to Easter.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 20, 2017, 11:58:56 am
I need to get my training back on track.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on February 20, 2017, 01:36:46 pm
i've heard the advice before, but forgot now. what is the recommendation with the sessions if also doing the (quite) intense rides outside too, which leave me too tired to complete the intervals? skip, move forward, reduce intensity?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 20, 2017, 03:33:51 pm
i've heard the advice before, but forgot now. what is the recommendation with the sessions if also doing the (quite) intense rides outside too, which leave me too tired to complete the intervals? skip, move forward, reduce intensity?

I was told to always complete the session(s) but reduce the intensity if you feel like you can't get to the end.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on February 20, 2017, 04:18:17 pm
The recent update to Zwift lets you adjust the workout on the fly by tweaking your FTP in increments up to +/- 10% via the mobile app.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on February 21, 2017, 07:31:11 pm
The recent update to Zwift lets you adjust the workout on the fly by tweaking your FTP in increments up to +/- 10% via the mobile app.

i've reduced the intensity on trainer road too for the last interval (ftp stays the same, only the level of required power goes +/-), will likely do that today right from the start, ha ha (it's hard work!..)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 21, 2017, 09:12:49 pm
First good session in a while with all that has been going on.  Feel like my mojo is back!!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 22, 2017, 04:11:05 pm
After having a wisdom tooth that's been giving me trouble for months removed yesterday, I'm hoping that I can start training properly again. I had been finding that even light exercise was becoming difficult.

Will hopefully try a gentle session tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 24, 2017, 10:52:36 am
2 turbo sessions this week designed to build 'top end'.   Neither of which were as bad as I thought they would be but pretty intense, nonetheless.   4hr tempo road ride on the TT bike tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on February 25, 2017, 08:52:34 pm
Didn't do any commutes last week, just a couple of easy turbo sessions so today's level 3 track accreditation session was my first time actual riding since crashing mid December. On the first drill the guy in front of me was a bit twitchy which made me nervous but after that it was all good. First TT next Saturday but after all this missed time it'll be very much a training ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 25, 2017, 09:00:15 pm
Finally back training. Feels like I've lost a lot. Rowing session on the water this morning then 3x10m sweet spot on the KickR this evening which felt like quite hard work.

Should be on 42 mile steady club ride tomorrow which will help get me back into things.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 25, 2017, 09:29:22 pm
2 turbo sessions this week designed to build 'top end'.   Neither of which were as bad as I thought they would be but pretty intense, nonetheless.   4hr tempo road ride on the TT bike tomorrow.

First 2hrs were OK, but then couldn't keep HR in zone with a steady downward drift.

Not really tired, hydrated OK and took on enough carbs so not sure what's causing this.   Seems to happen more often now I'm a bit lighter particularly on cold and windy days.   Completed the hours but felt rough.

Only the first week of this block.   Trip out for dinner for a morale boost.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: dim on February 25, 2017, 09:58:15 pm
Hoping to do well on my first proper ride since Christams eve

all was going to plan, and I entered the Rapha 500 Strava chalenge which started on the 24th of December..... decided to knock up a century, and done 100km ride .... half the way in heavy headwind. Was feeling a bit rough after 80km, but pushed myself and blamed it on the wind..... done OK with a good ave speed

and woke up the following day (Christmas day) with a bad cold that turned into Bronchitis 2 days later

So I've been taking things a bit easier since then and am fully recovered (I still managed to clock up 664km in January, with a total of 3318 meters of climbing, and for Feb so far, I've managed to ride 857 km with 4722 meters of climbing

prior to that, for several months in a row, I always completed the Strava distance challenge aswell as the Gran Fondo's

tomorow will be my first longish ride in a while .... I will be riding just over 100km from Great Shelford Cambridge, heading South  through  Thunbridge, then back through Elmdon and Duxford with just over 700 meters of climbing .... a very good route (my favourite 100km ride and designed by me using Strava heatmaps) ... on very quiet good roads:

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/17957901


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 25, 2017, 10:26:35 pm
Felt back in the "zone" of training this week. HR reached levels not seen since my accident 6 months ago which is interesting.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 26, 2017, 03:39:55 pm
Well that was hard work. Don't think it's base training when your HR reaches 193.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 26, 2017, 06:25:46 pm
193!!! 176 is best I can manage.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on February 26, 2017, 10:30:37 pm
TT bike is now sufficiently built and on a turbo. Lots of working in position ahead. yay.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 26, 2017, 11:33:33 pm
193!!! 176 is best I can manage.

220-my age would predict 175. Max I've ever seen was 195. 194 twice last year.

Training at high intensity is suggested to slow decline of HRmax with age.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 27, 2017, 08:25:27 am
193!!! 176 is best I can manage.

220-my age would predict 175. Max I've ever seen was 195. 194 twice last year.

Training at high intensity is suggested to slow decline of HRmax with age.

I think the 220-age thing can be way off.   In my first ramp test I hit 205 and I was 40 at the time.

I haven't been near that since but can get to mid 180s on the turbo.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on February 27, 2017, 09:46:33 am
TT bike is now sufficiently built and on a turbo. Lots of working in position ahead. yay.

Mine too. Seems my shoulders are about twice as wide as the aerobars were built for. And that's with width extenders!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on February 27, 2017, 10:11:12 am
did not manage to complete the workout today due to overheating (forgot to turn the radiator off last night and was getting dizzy at 160bpm). this is the toughest week of the block before the recovery week after which a re-test of ftp.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 27, 2017, 10:19:35 am
TT bike is now sufficiently built and on a turbo. Lots of working in position ahead. yay.

Mine too. Seems my shoulders are about twice as wide as the aerobars were built for. And that's with width extenders!

It took me a couple of years to refine my position.   I'm not as low as I would like to be due to back issues, but I have managed to bring myself narrower bit-by-bit.   the fitter I worked with said 0.5-1cm at a time and give your self time to adapt.   Steering at 30mph with your elbows close together takes a bit of practice.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on February 27, 2017, 10:25:41 am
TT bike is now sufficiently built and on a turbo. Lots of working in position ahead. yay.

Mine too. Seems my shoulders are about twice as wide as the aerobars were built for. And that's with width extenders!

It took me a couple of years to refine my position.   I'm not as low as I would like to be due to back issues, but I have managed to bring myself narrower bit-by-bit.   the fitter I worked with said 0.5-1cm at a time and give your self time to adapt.   Steering at 30mph with your elbows close together takes a bit of practice.

Yeah, that's my plan. I can spread the elbow rests one hole further (3T bars with width extenders), and I'll bring them in one hole at a time as I get used to it. Losing weight would help too!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 27, 2017, 01:42:03 pm
Did a best zone 2 ride in terms of distance yesterday until the wind destroyed everything in its path!

This morning did a 2 hour zone 2 ride with a constant  power of 144W and 129HR on the turbo.  Even at the end of the 2 hours I was still maintaining 140W and 129 bpm so pretty pleased.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 28, 2017, 09:41:12 pm
Not quite as good tonight.   Felt I was stretching myself a bit in the warm up and the feeling continued for tge next hour.

Still, I get to go audaxing on Saturday which should be altogether more pleasant.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on February 28, 2017, 10:21:00 pm
Emergency dental visit lead to no training tonight.  However i do have 5 days in tenerife.  55km and 2600m to the top!  it will be fun to try.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 01, 2017, 10:02:08 pm
New peak 5 second power tonight of 831 watts.  The power seems to have started improving after a static period for a few weeks.


This is a big achievement for me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 01, 2017, 10:49:40 pm
 :thumbsup: better than I've achieved last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 02, 2017, 12:03:11 am
i was surprised when i couldn't complete the first 3min interval yesterday morning. it all became obvious when i came down with cold later in the evening. it's been a few years since i was ill, so it took me by surprise. drinking lots of herbal tea now and hoping that one week is enough to recover and get back on the trainer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on March 02, 2017, 01:09:19 pm
did not manage to complete the workout today due to overheating (forgot to turn the radiator off last night and was getting dizzy at 160bpm). this is the toughest week of the block before the recovery week after which a re-test of ftp.

Heat is a killer for me - I've put three fans on a smart plug as they are too cooling to cope with before I'm hot, but then I don't want to stop. I can now switch them on via my phone mid workout.

i was surprised when i couldn't complete the first 3min interval yesterday morning. it all became obvious when i came down with cold later in the evening. it's been a few years since i was ill, so it took me by surprise. drinking lots of herbal tea now and hoping that one week is enough to recover and get back on the trainer.

I had the same recently - couldn't complete, then sore throat and sniffles came on later in the day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 02, 2017, 01:11:18 pm
Smart plug. What a good idea.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 03, 2017, 10:19:04 am
Starting to get some momentum.  3x12 last night. Reckon 15w drop in FTP. Odd how unfit I feel given this is still in the ball park of last PBP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 03, 2017, 11:25:27 am
Last nights session had me back in tge zone.   Much happier.

Knocked off avoiding a ped this morning.   Bruised & beaten and now a very easy weekend planned.   Arse.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 03, 2017, 11:27:46 am
Last nights session had me back in tge zone.   Much happier.

Knocked off avoiding a ped this morning.   Bruised & beaten and now a very easy weekend planned.   Arse.

OH WTF. Glad it's not worse.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 03, 2017, 01:07:27 pm
Rob
My sympathy. I hope you get better soon and can resume training.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 04, 2017, 07:58:31 pm
Rowing in the morning, KickR in the evening.

5x331w for 1m:1r. Repeat three times with 8m rest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 05, 2017, 09:00:41 am
Very nice.

Managed 900m of climb In Tenerife keeping HR steady and in control. Family day today and then aim for Teide on Monday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on March 05, 2017, 05:32:59 pm
Got as far as the starting timekeeper this morning before turning around and going back to the HQ. Cold, wet and windy. I went home and did 4x15' instead.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on March 05, 2017, 07:24:02 pm
Apparently my FTP is static, but my time to exhaustion is going up. It's been suggested I need to alternate big weeks 700TSS+ with easy weeks 450TSS, and look to do at least two sessions with an average intensity of .9.

Picked up a 4iiii power meter to encourage myself to get back out on the road.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 05, 2017, 07:59:07 pm
I often find the high IF sessions to be more rewarding, and mentally engaging. IF 0.65 I'd rather be out cycling on a nice route.

Currently the weather is vile and I'm feeling sleepy after spending 3 hours helping with coaching at the rowing club so disinclined to do anything.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on March 05, 2017, 08:04:07 pm
TSS 839 this week.
I bailed on the 200 yesterday through sheer misery and only just managed a glimmer of enjoyment on today's tandem over for coffee.
I'm knackered,and worse than that, I'm not getting fitter. (Though I am losing weight).

Looking at the checklist for overtraining symptoms, I'm ticking all the fecking boxes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on March 05, 2017, 09:39:37 pm
TSS 839 this week.
I bailed on the 200 yesterday through sheer misery and only just managed a glimmer of enjoyment on today's tandem over for coffee.
I'm knackered,and worse than that, I'm not getting fitter. (Though I am losing weight).

Looking at the checklist for overtraining symptoms, I'm ticking all the fecking boxes.

The not getting faster, but getting thinner ended up with me crouching behind trees. And worse.

In the words of the mighty Ultramagnetic MCs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KSRhQidyms
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 05, 2017, 11:40:30 pm
I'd suggest an easy week (say 200TSS with mainly moderate intensity) to reset.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on March 06, 2017, 08:07:35 am
With my imminent Galician gallop, and post three weeks exclusively driving (OK, and eating and drinking as well) in NZ I needed to get back on the treadmill. The Tacx computer controlled trainer is great, except that you can't stop. If you do,the algorithm that seeks to equal the power output no matter what the cadence and wheelspeed results in trying to achieve cadence of 90 - 100 up a 1:5 gradient. So I thought I'd throttle back FTP to something I could maintain, from the 275 I was last time I used it to 220. Did this help? did it **** :(

Managed an hour of the 1.5 hours of tempo (Sufferfest "To get to the other side") on Saturday (TS 60), but crapped out after 25 mins of climbing (Sufferfest Angels). Long way to go in 6 weeks...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 06, 2017, 12:52:56 pm
Ham
Quote
Tacx computer controlled trainer is great, except that you can't stop.

It might be worth seeing if there is an update.  i updated my Neo about 10days ago and found a big improvement in this  cadence/power problem.  i think they may have added some extra algorithms.  As I really slowed down the resistance seemed to scale back to some extent.

Tied did not happen as a gale came in and cycling down these slopes in massive gusting winds is not my idea of fun or even sense.

Went out and did an hour of power work instead on roads I knew be relatively safe.  Highest NP I have recorded (236W) so really pleased.  I think I can do better tomorrow.  we will see, it is supposed to be a holiday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on March 06, 2017, 04:07:10 pm
Ham
Quote
Tacx computer controlled trainer is great, except that you can't stop.

It might be worth seeing if there is an update.  i updated my Neo about 10days ago and found a big improvement in this  cadence/power problem.  i think they may have added some extra algorithms.  As I really slowed down the resistance seemed to scale back to some extent.

Tied did not happen as a gale came in and cycling down these slopes in massive gusting winds is not my idea of fun or even sense.

Went out and did an hour of power work instead on roads I knew be relatively safe.  Highest NP I have recorded (236W) so really pleased.  I think I can do better tomorrow.  we will see, it is supposed to be a holiday.

I have zero confidence in the Tacx software, but I did run Tacx update  program which told me there was no update available. a bit surprising, mine is the "Ironman" which is a re-branded Genius, hard to believe there is no update for that ("flagship") model just below the Neo and probably using the same controller, but there you are. TrainerRoad has improved its software substantially over the last year, at least. Shame the controlling software (eg trainerroad) can't manage the ramp up, all it needs is about 3-5 second ramp.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on March 07, 2017, 07:00:59 am
TSS 839 this week.
I bailed on the 200 yesterday through sheer misery and only just managed a glimmer of enjoyment on today's tandem over for coffee.
I'm knackered,and worse than that, I'm not getting fitter. (Though I am losing weight).

Looking at the checklist for overtraining symptoms, I'm ticking all the fecking boxes.

What was your TSB?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on March 07, 2017, 09:50:31 am
What was your TSB?
-54
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on March 08, 2017, 08:25:05 am
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2015/07/part-3-training-stress-balanceso-what.html

I don't know how severe -54 is, but I hope you are feeling better.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 08, 2017, 03:26:32 pm
So as I had a rowing outing yesterday evening - in 7 seat for a change, usually I'm in bow - the 2x8m test remains uncompleted. I shall try to make myself do it tonight.

Hopefully won't have FTP result below 250W.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 08, 2017, 05:35:36 pm
I start to not enjoy being on a bike from -40 or so.

In better news after putting off my FTP test, I eventually applied rule 5 and happy to report a good increase from the last one, though not sure I'm going to enjoy the ride to the pub on fixed tonight.... 

Suspect there was a bit of fatigue in the last test I did (231W), but good to see I'm ahead of last year's FTP at this time of year.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170308/bc8f41540bd11ec05acb11aa078dae15.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 08, 2017, 05:40:12 pm
Looks good! Pacing of the 2nd effort a bit erratic, mind. Did you find yourself between two gears?

Time to go home and see if I can MTFU.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 08, 2017, 09:30:12 pm
Damnit. 248W.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 09, 2017, 09:26:28 am
Looks good! Pacing of the 2nd effort a bit erratic, mind. Did you find yourself between two gears?

Time to go home and see if I can MTFU.

I went a little off from the start and not paying attention to the output trend so fooled myself in to thinking I could crank it up a bit more... I then pondered could I do very hard for 1 min and then easy off for another min and get in to a cycle of under/over to see if that yielded a different number... that lasted for almost a minute or 3 till I started to realise I was over and above a sustainable output, last 2 mins became a bit sweary!

Interestingly, the second session average power was the same as the first 8 min session average 274W but the max was a lot higher for the 2nd, 332W vrs 402W.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 09, 2017, 01:40:42 pm
Been hard to ride the commute at any sort of intensity this week due to back/hip problems, but started to feel a bit better this morning.   Despite being told not to use the turbo this week I went back and picked out one of my sessions from December which I ended up quite enjoying, getting my HR back up into race zone again.

I'll ride the 10 I entered on Saturday afternoon if only to test out my new skinsuit/overshoes/tyres.   If I ride there and book should turn into a 70ish mile day.

I now have 5 weeks to go until a family holiday so, hopefully, I haven't lost too much time and I can make some progress.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 12, 2017, 05:53:04 pm
In Scotland for my mum's birthday, brought the trainer with me. Tried 5x10m threshold but only did 3 of them. Tired from the travel I think.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 13, 2017, 09:06:09 pm
Supposed to do a FTP test tonight but late home from work and the brain just did not engage. stopped 3 minutes into the 20 minute interval
Try again tomorrow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on March 14, 2017, 07:40:29 am
What a difference a year makes :(

Feb 16, FTP set 270
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-q3QGqvOK58g/WMedhqpywJI/AAAAAAABAGY/Ep4Xz_lP0fgctTuwGOBaBeeGWTsVS88xQCPcB/s800/Feb16.png)

Mar 17, FTP set 220, HR up, cadence down. power? yeah, well.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TMxafytAYEM/WMediCNrmKI/AAAAAAABAGc/4JFKtHSRrV8Ku75qC-veqx_nX6FkyTbkwCPcB/s800/Mar17.png)

(Both Sufferfest Angels)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 14, 2017, 01:01:02 pm
Been hard to ride the commute at any sort of intensity this week due to back/hip problems, but started to feel a bit better this morning.   Despite being told not to use the turbo this week I went back and picked out one of my sessions from December which I ended up quite enjoying, getting my HR back up into race zone again.

I'll ride the 10 I entered on Saturday afternoon if only to test out my new skinsuit/overshoes/tyres.   If I ride there and book should turn into a 70ish mile day.

I now have 5 weeks to go until a family holiday so, hopefully, I haven't lost too much time and I can make some progress.

Managed to knock 30secs off my 10 PB so pretty happy.   Back on it this week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 14, 2017, 01:10:08 pm
That's a significant improvement.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 15, 2017, 08:08:55 pm
i seem to have constant muscle soreness since i started tr workouts. i wonder if the intensity is too high not letting me to recover. base training ends next week, time to start a "build" thread? :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on March 21, 2017, 08:25:42 pm
Finished a Sufferfest workout for the first time this year.... so beginning to feel like I might be able to get back to where I need to be, still hard to imagine doing it with an FTP of 250, still less 270 which is what I could (just about) achieve then :(

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5562239-sufferfest-a-very-dark-place-pre-6-13-

What's particular hard to deal with is that I have been riding through the winter (OK, not long rides, but still) so the decline is all down to making too close acquaintance with 60. Oddly (?) I haven't noticed any decrease in MHR which still appears to be 185.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 21, 2017, 10:29:16 pm
200k at the weekend, first since 4 months. I'd say it went as well as can be expected given the month break.

Should set me up for 300k this weekend. I had two rest days then had rowing training this evening. Aiming to train again tomorrow, again on Thursday, and then a rest day friday.

TSS figure based on HR seems wildly high for Saturday's ride. Implies an IF of 0.77 for >9h on the bike. I don't think that's feasible.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 21, 2017, 10:46:15 pm
200k at the weekend, first since 4 months. I'd say it went as well as can be expected given the month break.

Should set me up for 300k this weekend. I had two rest days then had rowing training this evening. Aiming to train again tomorrow, again on Thursday, and then a rest day friday.

TSS figure based on HR seems wildly high for Saturday's ride. Implies an IF of 0.77 for >9h on the bike. I don't think that's feasible.

I managed 0.81 over 9h30m on a 200 at the weekend using a power meter so perhaps not that unrealistic...?

I felt my legs empty by the end - struggled just to ride around the block yesterday in the wind testing my USB power and this mornings 3x12m threshold intervals were a real struggle... last interval I almost jacked.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on March 22, 2017, 09:36:44 pm
Yep, what a difference a week makes

Mar 14
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1_b3PGihRKA/WNLtK_VVImI/AAAAAAABAIY/L9-UeaeqM-0FP11g83SG9onKrq53K71lACPcB/s800/HHNF%2B14%2BMar.jpg)


Mar 22
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nCfX7pExp-E/WNLtK2cJ8dI/AAAAAAABAIU/eGeu5uYur9okkA3SGtmw_aQWq0I0SDL4gCPcB/s800/HHNF%2B22%2BMar.jpg)
Mind you, anyone know where Strava gets its speed and distance data from? It's uploaded from TR, but I can't see it anywhere there. It looks reasonable, just wondering if it is output from the Tacx, or calculated somehow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 22, 2017, 09:47:56 pm
I "believe" that TR has now added in a distance and speed estimate into the data it records although it does not show this in the on screen data.
Found it.
Quote
Does TrainerRoad record speed and distance during my workouts?
Yes, but speed and distance are not all that useful when you train indoors. These metrics are often different from the values you’d expect performing the same effort outside.

If you’d like to access estimated speed and distance, you can do so by viewing your completed rides in the desktop app, or by using Ride Sync to upload your ride to TrainingPeaks and Strava.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on March 22, 2017, 10:15:45 pm
Ah thanks - although I still can't find anything in the desktop app. TBH, the speed feels about right, and if that is the case then the "estimated" distance as a factor of speed and time, I'm sort-of keeping a mental note of daily miles on road + trainer, to see how my *rse gets on (cf Health & Fitness), and extrapolate to doing 100k days, thinking I've done 60k+ today feels quite reassuring even if I haven't ;) https://www.strava.com/activities/910455682
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 22, 2017, 10:35:26 pm
I tried to break in a B17 on the turbo using TR and it was not the same as riding in the real world... more bumps and vibrations off the road... may be similar effect to other body parts!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 22, 2017, 10:50:19 pm
Vo2max intervals tonight. Lactic burn.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 23, 2017, 07:58:34 am
new FTP on over and under last night according to training peaks!  tonight is threshold boost.  5minute intervals at FTP x 6.
It is interesting that the pain seems to be changing.  until now the pain has been so severe I had to drop power massively and then recover but the pain is changing so I can live with the pain for longer.  Just adaptation i suspect but interesting as I go through it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 23, 2017, 08:49:40 am
Muscular endurance is probably improving. Improved lactate clearance so you can still end longer at FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 23, 2017, 09:26:21 am
Quote
Muscular endurance is probably improving
I think that is probably correct.  I have done a number of endurance rides on the turbo so 2-3 hours at constant heart rate which is far harder than a 2-3 hour ride outside as there are no natural breaks. first time I did 3 hours on the turbo at a constant HR of 132-134 my legs hurt for days afterwards whereas now it is a lot easier.

I also perversely find it easier mentally to do a zone 2 ride on the turbo for 3 hours than a 3 hour ride in the rain and cold in zone 2.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 24, 2017, 08:25:33 pm
new record sprint powers. 5 sec - 883W    10 seconds 782W   on trainerroad.

Nice feeling when it starts to pay off. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 24, 2017, 08:37:51 pm
300km tomorrow will provide a couple of weeks TSS in one hit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 26, 2017, 06:01:49 pm
A few weeks back, I think just before my crash I was instructed to do a 4hr ride with my HR 155-165 with a few harder efforts mixed in.   Given this is mid-upper tempo for me it's probably 100 mile TT effort.

After 2 hrs I just couldn't get my HR into zone.  I blamed the fact it was a bit cold and windy.   Coach said not enough carbs.   I had taken on a gel every hour and eaten a decent breakfast so I wasn't so sure.   Today I did a similar effort but with 4 * 10 mins running my HR at 170 in each hour.   I carried more food - bars and gels - and ate at defined intervals.   Lo and behold no drop off and lifted HR right to the end.   Of course I'm now knackered.

I went back and looked at my stats for the 3 100 mile TTs I did last year and I had a drop off in performance in the second half of all 3.   Looks like I'll be taking more food along on the next ones.  Just shows you can miss basic things.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 28, 2017, 02:25:04 pm
started a new build phase (does it mean this post is off topic? :) ) today with a re-test of ftp. compared to my previous one that has been done on the neo, it increased by 6w, but as neo over-reads by ~13-15w when compared to stages, the actual improvement is more like 20w, which i'm pleased about! also, paced it better this time, however i was still overheating a bit, which resulted in max hr lower by 12bpm. onwards and upwards with a new 280w ftp.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 28, 2017, 02:47:41 pm
You're around 68kg, is that right? So that's 4.1w/kg.  :thumbsup:

I'm going to re-test next week. I should have recovered from 200k & 300k weekends by then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 28, 2017, 03:11:41 pm
You're around 68kg, is that right? So that's 4.1w/kg.  :thumbsup:

that's correct! :) (my goal for the build phase is to get to 4.5)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 31, 2017, 11:52:09 am
I did my first TR session since The Dean last night. Heavy legs right from the start, it was tough. Managed to get through though.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5637304-jepson

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on March 31, 2017, 09:14:04 pm
Well, Rubber Gloved (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5644639-sufferfest-rubber-glove) it again and I'm back up to 265. I'm sure that's a good thing.

(Despite issues with the erg setting at the beginning of the interval, and a flaky cadence  sensor)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 14, 2017, 08:52:08 am
Just over 20hrs last week, including taking over a minute off my 25 PB.

12hrs in the first 4 days of this week and a rest day today.   Will ride to my parents tomorrow for a 170 mile day that will take me to over 20hrs this week as well to complete this block.   6 days off then, before starting another build towards the longer distances.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 14, 2017, 09:46:10 am
I was getting some progress so now I have a cold.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on April 20, 2017, 09:23:53 pm
New FTP without trying on a set of threshold intervals so really please with how the training is going.  i really struggle with FTP tests so run trainer road about 20-30 watts above what i have recorded as my FTP.  So running trainneroad at FTP of 240 and training peaks tells me that i have a new FTP tonight of 218 on a set of threshold intervals.

I just can't be arsed to hurt myself that much for the 20 minutes on a turbo.  One day i will get there as i am enjoying the training more and more. 

i do find at 58 that i need more total recovery days.  I now often need 3 days to recover instead of 2 and at the end of a block of work i can take 5 -7 days off and come back stronger.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 20, 2017, 10:11:41 pm
I'm back! Recovered from lurgy and did 6x6m sweet-spot just now.

It felt pretty easy though HR was a little higher than last time I did this specific workout. Probably mainly the effect of a week and a bit off training on blood volume. If so then my HR should be lower again after a few more sessions.

We have a rowing training camp this weekend so plenty of training load to accumulate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 21, 2017, 12:15:14 am
New FTP without trying on a set of threshold intervals so really please with how the training is going.  i really struggle with FTP tests so run trainer road about 20-30 watts above what i have recorded as my FTP.  So running trainneroad at FTP of 240 and training peaks tells me that i have a new FTP tonight of 218 on a set of threshold intervals.

I just can't be arsed to hurt myself that much for the 20 minutes on a turbo.  One day i will get there as i am enjoying the training more and more. 

i do find at 58 that i need more total recovery days.  I now often need 3 days to recover instead of 2 and at the end of a block of work i can take 5 -7 days off and come back stronger.

Have you tried the 2x8m test? You have to go harder for 8m (twice). I find it easier to pace.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on April 21, 2017, 09:14:30 am
New FTP without trying on a set of threshold intervals so really please with how the training is going.  i really struggle with FTP tests so run trainer road about 20-30 watts above what i have recorded as my FTP.  So running trainneroad at FTP of 240 and training peaks tells me that i have a new FTP tonight of 218 on a set of threshold intervals.

I just can't be arsed to hurt myself that much for the 20 minutes on a turbo.  One day i will get there as i am enjoying the training more and more. 

i do find at 58 that i need more total recovery days.  I now often need 3 days to recover instead of 2 and at the end of a block of work i can take 5 -7 days off and come back stronger.

Have you tried the 2x8m test? You have to go harder for 8m (twice). I find it easier to pace.

^^ This, I quite like the 8min format.  I bit the bullet and tested again yesterday, first 8min felt a bit too comfortable, I gave it a fair bit more out of the comfort on the second interval and I've got an improvement of just over 10W on my FTP... it's so much better than the 20m protocol... whether they yield the same overall result who knows, but as long as you use the same protocol I would expect it would be fine... I'm presently procrastinating over spending 70mins on TR this morning  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on April 21, 2017, 09:30:36 am
i choose to suffer through the 20min test because it's more in line with the cycling i'm doing. 2x8min is recommended for crit racers, track riders, hill climbers.

i do find at 58 that i need more total recovery days.  I now often need 3 days to recover instead of 2 and at the end of a block of work i can take 5 -7 days off and come back stronger.

my dad is a few years older and also finds he needs a bit more recovery, two days after an intensive session is not always enough. imo, there should be an option to enter your age in trainerroad and the schedules should be adjusted accordingly. fwiw, he raised his ftp from 194 just before christmas to 231 now and targeting 250 in summer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 21, 2017, 12:42:20 pm
I hope that at some point they will add the ability to make the plans more dynamic and adjustable to your training load, and in particular to have a better way of accounting for outdoor miles. Adjusting for age isn't a bad idea; though YMMV and two 60 year old riders with different training backgrounds will respond differently.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 26, 2017, 08:54:22 pm
Making a start on the next block of training this week.   Been sent a nice mixture of sessions that are now longer with smidges of top end work.   

Last weeks break seems to have done the trick and I feel pretty fresh.

13 weeks to the 24hr.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 26, 2017, 10:59:52 pm
Frustrated ATM. Haven't really progressed recently. Hoping for a lurgy free period. I've still got a productive cough hanging over from being ill over Easter. Bah.

Brevet Cymru this weekend. Wonder how that will go.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 30, 2017, 03:19:58 pm
Well, I had a poor night's sleep so was a DNS - helped on another event instead.

Today my punishment was this:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5837361-leconte

At the end the workout text said "Well DONE. That was Brutal... in fact it's one of the hardest workouts in our catalogue"

So I'm feeling slightly less behind the curve now. Onwards and upwards.

(I failed to complete this one a year ago - my FTP was set a bit too high at the time, so I never got to see that message)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on May 01, 2017, 10:22:36 am
I've been fairly consistently following the plan for the last 6 months.
I have not enjoyed it much at all, and have very much felt like I was getting slower.
Here's a lovely graph of how much I have totally wasted my time :
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/fboab/Screenshot_20170501-101704.png)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on May 01, 2017, 12:03:28 pm
Things progressing well for me, hacked 25" of my PB for a 10 yesterday. Compared with last year on the same course when I set the previous PB all the other riders that rode both evens (16) went up to 2 minutes slower apart from one who improved by 1" so on a good day I reckon there's another 30"+ to come of that.

First big test will be the Norlond 50 in two weeks time.

EDIT: I am off on a 5! Shurely shome mistake? Never been higher than a 2 or 7 before, even in a middle markers event...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on May 01, 2017, 04:27:31 pm
I've been fairly consistently following the plan for the last 6 months.
I have not enjoyed it much at all, and have very much felt like I was getting slower.
Here's a lovely graph of how much I have totally wasted my time :
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/fboab/Screenshot_20170501-101704.png)

And this is where data chasing doesn't really work for everyone.   For what we do - and I'll admit I don't know what your goals are for this year - VO2max and FTP matter very little.   I have no idea what my stats were or what they are now, but my PBs are coming down and I *feel* a lot better on the bike.

You're not really supposed to enjoy training but if the process gets you down there's many ways of improving fitness and some of them are quite pleasant.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on May 04, 2017, 04:17:21 pm
My FTP went down relentlessly whilst following the Zwift FTP builder plan. Was dispiriting. I ended up getting a bit of coaching. He basically looks over what I do via training peaks, sends me PMs via facebook, and we go for coffee every 6-8 weeks. He mostly sets me TSS and intensity factor goals, but recently has been getting me doing all out sprint intervals a few times a week.

(http://thumbsnap.com/t/3xeEH6oL.jpg) (http://thumbsnap.com/3xeEH6oL)
(http://thumbsnap.com/t/GIkTgAPz.jpg) (http://thumbsnap.com/GIkTgAPz)

I use Today's Plan rather than Training Peaks, and I don't have WKO, so can't see all the metrics he looks at. However, I am pleased with the progression in 60m w/kg.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on May 04, 2017, 04:29:02 pm
Was absolutely smashed, cumulatively, by last night.   2 easy days and a complete rest on Saturday, followed by a 50m TT Sunday morning.   Let's see how that goes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 04, 2017, 05:43:48 pm
My FTP went down relentlessly whilst following the Zwift FTP builder plan. Was dispiriting. I ended up getting a bit of coaching. He basically looks over what I do via training peaks, sends me PMs via facebook, and we go for coffee every 6-8 weeks. He mostly sets me TSS and intensity factor goals, but recently has been getting me doing all out sprint intervals a few times a week.

(http://thumbsnap.com/t/3xeEH6oL.jpg) (http://thumbsnap.com/3xeEH6oL)
(http://thumbsnap.com/t/GIkTgAPz.jpg) (http://thumbsnap.com/GIkTgAPz)

I use Today's Plan rather than Training Peaks, and I don't have WKO, so can't see all the metrics he looks at. However, I am pleased with the progression in 60m w/kg.

Nice graph. My best 1h NP is 254W from May 7 last year. I was about 80kg, so 3.175w/kg or so. Unfortunately not as fit now.

Also you can see a progression with that workout - NP 234, 249, 254 as I got stronger over 2 months.

The one I did on Sunday was the 1h30 version. NP of 222 for 1h30. I once managed NP of 242 for 1h30, still got some room to improve for sure.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on May 04, 2017, 10:16:34 pm
....................
I use Today's Plan rather than Training Peaks, and I don't have WKO, so can't see all the metrics he looks at. However, I am pleased with the progression in 60m w/kg.

Do you know if you can import from Training peaks data in to Today's plan?

I was thinking about taking a look and comparing what the two look like.  I'm not using any particular plans other than trying to fit Trainerroad plans in around Audax's whilst aiming to keep the Form in a a sensible place, but over the past two weeks or so, the form it says isn't matching how I've been feeling (though could bit a bit of illness in the background at the moment) I've been finding the stravistix multisport fitness graph more representative even though I have my HR and Power zones mirrored across all the platforms.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on May 05, 2017, 11:24:08 am
....................
I use Today's Plan rather than Training Peaks, and I don't have WKO, so can't see all the metrics he looks at. However, I am pleased with the progression in 60m w/kg.

Do you know if you can import from Training peaks data in to Today's plan?

I was thinking about taking a look and comparing what the two look like.  I'm not using any particular plans other than trying to fit Trainerroad plans in around Audax's whilst aiming to keep the Form in a a sensible place, but over the past two weeks or so, the form it says isn't matching how I've been feeling (though could bit a bit of illness in the background at the moment) I've been finding the stravistix multisport fitness graph more representative even though I have my HR and Power zones mirrored across all the platforms.

Yes, export from Training Peaks (TPe) to Today's Plan (TPl) is a cinch. Once you have all the historic data, you can sync to both simultaneously via Garmin Connect.

I've subscribed to both. Comparing the two, I like the TPe mobile app better (mostly for the weekly CTL / ATL / TSB page - TPe only has it on the desktop), but everything else is a little bit nicer on TPl for me. It's just really nice to use - very polished. TPl has it's automagic plans / sessions, which for me are really good. That aside, both now do workout export to Zwift, and are much of a muchness - except TPl syncs with Zwift automagically - so when you load up Zwift in the morning, the workout for the day is awaiting for you. TPl is a fair chunk cheaper, even with BC discount.

My main criticisms of TPl are that it is endlessly configurable - you can end up displaying so much data you can get lost in it; and that the training plans could be a bit more spiteful. Some of the workouts themselves can be brutal, but they build in a lot of rest, so if you are short of time, it's hard to get a decent ramp rate without lying about your current FTP. I've ended up ignoring their TSS weekly targets, and setting my own and then using the workouts to populate a plan to meet my targets.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 05, 2017, 11:30:42 am
"A bit more spiteful". Nice turn of phrase.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 06, 2017, 08:58:30 pm
Talking of spiteful I did Solomons again today after already having 90 minutes on the water at the rowing club. Surprisingly I didn't struggle. Time for an FTP test. I think I'm approaching the fitness I had at the last PBP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on May 15, 2017, 04:04:53 pm
Something is working this year anyway.....   Easy week and a 400k on Saturday which I'll ride on the TT bike and aim to not stop much.

Next race is then the 12hr on the 11th June.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on May 16, 2017, 12:17:48 am
Something is working this year anyway.....   Easy week and a 400k on Saturday which I'll ride on the TT bike and aim to not stop much.

Next race is then the 12hr on the 11th June.

good luck, i've done a very similar ride couple of weeks ago, one proper stop of ~20min and another half an hour for all the traffic lights, junctions etc.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 20, 2017, 09:18:35 pm
Picket Guard. Nearly completed on target just one back pedal break. As it was the BCM last weekend and I had a 1h30 rowing session earlier - I think I need to retest my threshold.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on May 22, 2017, 02:02:44 pm
Something is working this year anyway.....   Easy week and a 400k on Saturday which I'll ride on the TT bike and aim to not stop much.

That went OK.  Pacing and fuelling fine.

Back on the turbo this week.   3 weeks to the next big test which is the 12hr time trial.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on May 23, 2017, 01:27:57 pm
What turbos are you guys doing all these sessions on? I have read the Obree book (twice), and I've just got a basic turbo (budget restraints and ebay availability mean I now have a Tacx Booster). I'm content with the Obree plan to basically do a 30 minute TT every week plus some road work, log the HR and speed on Strava and see how I improve, but I'm curious about all these fancy plans... ;)
Cheers
Duncan
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on May 23, 2017, 02:23:02 pm
I'm using a Tacx Neo, but the Tacx Vortex smart I had before gave 90% of the experience for 30% of the cost (if you don't mind the noise).

Was pleased to find this in Today's Plan today - The training I've been doing seems to be doing something compared to where I was a year ago (admittedly a bad place)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18595318_10102299028271080_6122368070537202771_o.jpg?oh=924ed15650cf34c9453bfa9585711964&oe=599EB086)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on May 30, 2017, 10:19:21 pm
So I've got to the end of the base phase, finally. Bryan Chapman and Monmouth Regatta (rowing) out of the way. I struggled on the BCM, missing February hasn't been helpful. However I did OK at Monmouth (HR reached 190 bpm).

Going to test in a day or two. I would have done it today but we did 12km on the water this evening, with lots of race pace work, and I'm pretty knackered now.

I think my fitness is finally coming good - I did 45m easy (Carter) on TrainerRoad last night; HR average was 125bpm. This is the lowest ever for this workout, so I hope this means a decent FTP boost when I test. Perhaps on Thursday.

Then onto the build plan - General Build, I think.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on June 01, 2017, 09:49:07 pm
Looks like more improvement than hoped for.  :thumbsup:

 :sick:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on June 01, 2017, 09:53:36 pm
Up from 248W to 269W. Max HR in test was 193.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on June 02, 2017, 09:44:51 am
 :thumbsup:
congratulations
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on June 22, 2017, 04:43:25 pm
Back into shorter/sharper efforts for a couple of weeks to bring a bit of speed in for the National 100 on the 9th July.   The heat hasn't helped the turbo work this week.

Not much left to do after that before the Mersey 24hr.   Seems a bit weird to be this far down the road and almost finished for the year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on June 22, 2017, 04:56:44 pm
Back into shorter/sharper efforts for a couple of weeks to bring a bit of speed in for the National 100 on the 9th July.   The heat hasn't helped the turbo work this week.

Not much left to do after that before the Mersey 24hr.   Seems a bit weird to be this far down the road and almost finished for the year.

It sounds like it's worked really well for you so far. Best of luck with the National.

I did 3x12m sweet-spot on Monday evening, and reckon I lost 1.5L of fluid. I'm splitting my time with rowing sessions (erg and water) so not doing quite so much on the turbo but about the same total training load.

Mixing it up between some high intensity short intervals and longer stuff on the turbo, with Pendle 600k looming, and then a rowing regatta the following weekend.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on July 12, 2017, 07:43:36 pm
No more turbo work this season, with one race left.   Packing it away until November.    :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on July 13, 2017, 09:33:54 am
I haven't touched mine for a good few months now. Too much outdoor action on the bike, I am really due a FTP test but with only 2 weeks till LEL I might not bother....... I'm not missing the turbo  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on July 19, 2017, 09:36:13 pm
New PB for 3 minute power. Then another in the same workout.  :smug:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on July 20, 2017, 12:46:21 am
New Xert app on Garmin IQ is quite nice, came up with 271 for my FTP, which is a couple of watts over where I tested 6-7weeks ago, I'll take that for now given how close I am to LEL and I CBA with the pain cave!

Worth checking it out if you have a Garmin with IQ capability.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on July 20, 2017, 08:33:52 am
My last test was 269. Not sure I CBA to test again before LEL now. The information wouldn't tell me much as I'm not going to have a power meter.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on July 20, 2017, 12:16:30 pm
So the progression of peak 3m power is:

2015 - 306w
2016 - 321w
2017 - 334w

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on September 14, 2017, 11:41:38 pm
After a couple of basically sedentary months (bike fit & mojo issues) I've started a TrainerRoad sweet spot base plan, but also decided to ride every day in September , filling the rest days with 'avctive recovery'.

So far, so good - 14 days done & feeling good, will retest for ftp next month
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 14, 2017, 11:57:39 pm
I'm currently using the trainer mainly for cross training for rowing, working on base fitness. Not following a TR plan as such.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on September 15, 2017, 01:52:44 pm
I've been fettling the stuff in the gym spare room today, getting ready for dark evenings on the turbo.

I've restarted my TrainerRoads sub, and got the Concept 2 linked to Strava. I've stuck a Rasp Pi on the back of the TV on the wall, running KODI, so we can watch You Tube video playlists, as well as any of the films from the media server on the network.

Bring on the Snow!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on September 15, 2017, 03:27:15 pm
TT bike is on the turbo but just for fettling purposes.

In theory I start training again on the 6th November.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on September 15, 2017, 06:03:12 pm
I started my base training a fortnight ago with 3x56 mile round trip commutes per wee, this goes up to 4 times a week next week. Trainer road will be for the wet days and then intervals start after Xmas. I'll try not to break any bones this winter.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on September 15, 2017, 06:05:50 pm
I started my base training a fortnight ago with 3x56 mile round trip commutes per wee, this goes up to 4 times a week next week. Trainer road will be for the wet days and then intervals start after Xmas. I'll try not to break any bones this winter.

Either that's a lot of commuting, or you have a massive bladder  :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on September 15, 2017, 06:44:17 pm
 ;D
I started my base training a fortnight ago with 3x56 mile round trip commutes per wee, this goes up to 4 times a week next week. Trainer road will be for the wet days and then intervals start after Xmas. I'll try not to break any bones this winter.

Either that's a lot of commuting, or you have a massive bladder  :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 18, 2017, 09:37:31 pm
I just put a Kinetic thru axle onto my road bike so as I could get it in the trainer. It' only just fitted!
I bought the turbo with the intention of following the Obree book, but I'm probably just going to explore the concept of getting up early and turboing for a few weeks - if I can do it twice a week (and ride on the weekend) then I'll get a Trainer Road sub (I like their podcasts and I prefer the high tech approach to turning myself inside out doing the same thing every week).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on September 22, 2017, 09:09:11 am
Half way through my TR base training plan & it's working as the sweet spot intervals are starting to feel (a bit) too easy. 

Rest & retest my FTP, or just increase the intensity a few %, and retest after completing the plan?  What do other people do?

Cheers
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on October 03, 2017, 06:01:05 pm
Half way through my TR base training plan & it's working as the sweet spot intervals are starting to feel (a bit) too easy. 

Rest & retest my FTP, or just increase the intensity a few %, and retest after completing the plan?  What do other people do?

Cheers

I rested for 3 days then rested, pleased to have increased FTP in that test by 5%, I've set that as my new value which should be fun :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 03, 2017, 09:03:37 pm
When you say "half way", do you mean 3-4 weeks into Sweet Spot Base 1? That's really good going if so. There is a retest baked into the start of Base 2 anyway.
I'm now 4 rides into Sweet Spot Base 1. I find it hard to do the mega spinny bits (and my calves hurt after the single leg drills today), but I'm enjoying the structure.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on October 03, 2017, 10:40:21 pm
Yep, in the 4th week of sweet spot base - generally feeling a nice 'regular effort' boost I think  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 11, 2017, 10:18:51 am
My neighbour complained about the noise of my Turbo yesterday, so I had to stop halfway through the workout. :( First one I've not finished. I'm in the garage, but it's a townhouse and resonates. :(
I'll be trying some sound deadening under the turbo, a box over the top of it (hope I don't cook it), and turning the resistance up to reduce the speed at which I can spin the drum.n Hopefully that will mean I can continue training super early as that's the easiest time to fit into my schedule....
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on October 11, 2017, 11:46:54 am
if there is space, you could use a big box that covers rear wheel and the trainer (with two sides removed) and layer the inside with a pronged sound insulation foam.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 11, 2017, 01:21:38 pm
if there is space, you could use a big box that covers rear wheel and the trainer (with two sides removed) and layer the inside with a pronged sound insulation foam.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk
That's the plan  :thumbsup: I'm just not sure of the size of the box yet.
At lunchtime today I got some of these things to go under it and insulate it from the concrete floor: http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/garage-equipment/garage-essentials/rolson-6-piece-floor-mat-set-120-x-180cm?_br_psugg_q=floor+mat (I had a halfords voucher to spend)

On the weekend I'm going to build a box out of reasonably solid plywood, put a slot in it for the wheel, line it with foam or felt and drop it over the turbo. I am working on the basis that the foam will reduce echo/resonance and the mass of the box will absorb some of the volume.
If it gets too hot in the box I might try to duct some cool air from my fan in (though I could also remove/open the box during the rest interval periods, 'cos it's far less noisy at low rpm).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: phantasmagoriana on October 12, 2017, 09:39:13 am
My neighbour complained about the noise of my Turbo yesterday, so I had to stop halfway through the workout. :( First one I've not finished. I'm in the garage, but it's a townhouse and resonates. :(
I'll be trying some sound deadening under the turbo, a box over the top of it (hope I don't cook it), and turning the resistance up to reduce the speed at which I can spin the drum.n Hopefully that will mean I can continue training super early as that's the easiest time to fit into my schedule....

That's one of the reasons I don't use my turbo: in a second floor flat, it's just too loud and makes the place shake, even when using plenty of rubber matting. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 12, 2017, 04:30:08 pm
The rubber matting plus the increase in setting on the Turbo resolved the problem without a need for a box. I tried it today (at a reasonable time), and my neighbour said it was much improved and barely noticeable. :)

I might try to build a suitable box at some point, but it's much less urgent. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on October 12, 2017, 06:40:27 pm
I wouldn't bother with teh box, more chance of something going wrong with a fast spinny thing when you don't want it to and ending in tears/pain/cost :)

Good that you and the neighbour were able to reach an agreement on noise level from the matting  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 02, 2017, 02:14:11 pm
I finished the first 5 weeks of Sweet Spot Base 1, and the last week is a recovery week. I'm finding it really hard to be motivated for the recovery rides (not helped by my right knee being sore - my right leg isn't as strong as my left). Any tips?
I might do my FTP test this weekend instead of the 1.5 hour recovery ride - I don't think I'll be able to fit it in with work on Tuesday, and I'd like to keep to 1 hr Tuesday and Thursday and 1.5 on Saturday. That will tell me how much I've improved (I feel faster, but...)! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 06, 2017, 09:25:33 am
I did my FTP test yesterday.  I've still not got the hang of the 8 minute ones. The first one, I pushed myself really hard, averaged 222W (my previous FTP was 170) and I could barely see at the end! I recovered OK in the 10 minute valley before the second effort, but it felt much too long and I was cold by the second one (I need to get a remote adjustable fan).  On the second one, I put it into too big a gear, failed to spin it up properly and ended up mashing for a minute or 2 before my ITB got tight and I quit and just span along to finish the workout.
My new FTP was calculated on the average of the 2 efforts, so i came out lower than before! :(
I didn't realise it was calculated on the average of the 2 or I wouldn't have bailed on it. I've manually set it for 190W.
Does anyone else use the 8 minute test?  I think I will try the 20 minute test next time...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 06, 2017, 09:42:32 am
I use the 8 minute test, mostly because I'm not supposed to maintain max output for long periods (eg: 20 minutes), doctors orders.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6489603-8-minute-ftp-test

The knack is in the pacing - you'll see from the above I was able to push harder in the second effort because I'd not gone too crazy in the first. Practice helps.

(You can also see my FTP is shite - I have work to do over the winter!)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 06, 2017, 10:00:02 am
That link is private, so I can't see your ride.
The first 8 minute FTP test I did was this:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6535285-8-minute-ftp-test
You can see that the first leg was too easy and I raised it, and then the second one was still a bit on the easy side and ramped up.
Yesterdays was this:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6776343-8-minute-ftp-test
You can see that the first time around my cadence was mid 90s, and then high 80s for the second half, but the second time around I got the power above 200 but the cadence was low 80s - I think that's why I couldn't push the gear and my ITB seized up.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on November 06, 2017, 10:14:04 am
For an 8-minute max effort, my cadence would have to be well over 100 RPM. Curious if you’ve tried significantly higher cadences.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 06, 2017, 10:20:26 am
That link is private, so I can't see your ride.

Doh! Shouldn't be now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on November 06, 2017, 10:22:20 am
I prefer the 8min test also, whilst its twice, its not as long. Plus the first effort allows you to work at just above threshold by what ever you guess might be improvement and then up or lower for the second session.

I've not done a test since before LEL and really should do one.  I have recently been using Xert which uses your power meter based rides to derive an FTP, mine is still there or thereabouts but it certainly feels a lot more of an effort to keep going now my pre-LEL fitness isn't there... I'm not sure when I did my last FTP, I think it was May! when I was around 269W https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5948610

(https://images2.imgbox.com/cf/b8/aLqFukvm_o.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/aLqFukvm)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 06, 2017, 11:24:40 am
It's easier to pace if you know what the target is. After a while away, or a big improvement between tests, pacing gets tricky.

TR do advise that if you overcook in the first and there's a big drop in the second effort as a result, you will probably underestimate your FTP. I don't think it's possible to over-test so if anything your score would be higher, rather than lower, with a perfectly paced test.

This was my most recent 8-minute test:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6506392-8-minute-ftp-test

I cocked up the pacing because of a drop in fitness caused by more racing than training, plus using a new power meter which reads lower than the Kickr. So I struggled a bit in the second interval.

Fitness has dropped further since due to injury + lurgy.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 06, 2017, 11:54:01 am
I could probably have hung on to 200W for the second 8 minutes if I wasn't concerned that my ITB would cause knee instability and do more harm than good. I'm foam rollering and doing glute exercises to help with that, but... I know I'm better than I was on the first test I did 6 weeks ago, and I also undercooked that one, so I was expecting to hold 215W or so, but I followed the guidance and didn't pick a target wattage - I just rode as hard as I could for 8 minutes. :) I guess that's why that first test spent quite a lot of time at 230W ish.  ::-) I should probably have just tried to maintain 215 for the 2 periods of 8 minutes.  As a result of messing up the test, I'm going to use a manual FTP at 190 and see if I can complete the workouts at that level - if not then I'll drop it down a bit at a time until I can. I can't fit another test in on Tuesday - gotta go to Manchester with work (which is why I started on Sunday).

I find it harder to ride high cadences on the turbo than outside - part of the reason is that to keep the noise lower I'm lifiting the resistance on the turbo unit and using lower gears. I'm rebuilding my fixie, so once that's done I'll go outside and spin like a lunatic (when the weather is nice and I don't have a TR ride scheduled) - I think that's only got a 68" gear. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 06, 2017, 05:47:58 pm
I certainly could not do a 20 minute interval at 100+ cadence. I am now generally doing my workouts at about 85-90 for the sweet spot intervals. I find once I get to 100 though the endurance really falls off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 07, 2017, 12:28:53 pm
After 4mths of no high intensity work but quite a few long rides my first training plan started again yesterday.

I'm not going to race until at least April so looking at a 5mth build and recondition.   At least I'm starting at a lower weight this time round.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 07, 2017, 02:05:24 pm
After 4mths of no high intensity work but quite a few long rides my first training plan started again yesterday.

I'm not going to race until at least April so looking at a 5mth build and recondition.   At least I'm starting at a lower weight this time round.

Aiming to start tonight. 4 months base, then 2 months build and 2 months 'finish'. Next 'events' for me are bithday ride, tan hill, Deano's mixed terrain and a work ride I organizing for May. They'll have to fit in, but I should be ready to ride properlyish after I've done the events;)

Still trying to work out how to weave running in without falling foul of the pool and starting triathlon (as suggested by a helpful colleague yesterday)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 07, 2017, 04:32:55 pm
Trainer Roads base Wk 1 starts tonight. 8 min FTP. Again.

PBP 2019 campaign started last week - a somewhat painful tandem 200 followed by a more painful fixed 100. There's much work to be done; I'm flabby and weak.

ETA: W00t! up to 195W. As a fat, ex 40-a-day, borderline alcoholic knocking on 60, I'm not sure what a realistic target is. Just keep training and see what happens I guess.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 07, 2017, 07:32:42 pm

PBP 2019 campaign started last week.


Bugger.   Is that coming round again ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 07, 2017, 07:35:12 pm

PBP 2019 campaign started last week.


Bugger.   Is that coming round again ?

Not really - I just need a loooooooong run up  ::-) :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 07, 2017, 08:35:59 pm
PBP isn’t on my radar yet. I’m supposed to be raising my game for rowing but have been injured and ill for 5 weeks now so it’s not happening.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 07, 2017, 08:39:11 pm

PBP 2019 campaign started last week.


Bugger.   Is that coming round again ?

Not really - I just need a loooooooong run up  ::-) :D

See you in France.   I should do a few more audaxes this year for a bit of variety.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on November 07, 2017, 09:03:28 pm
I thought I'd start again today. Checked everything through. Calibrated. Recognised that I wasn't as fit as back in March, so thought I'd reduce my FTP from 265 to 220, to give me a chance. Loaded up Sufferfest Angels (apart from it being my fave in terms of workout and music I was having major technology issues the last time I trained, so thought I'd start with the same one)

Nice warm up out the way. it quickly got tougher than I was hoping. I chickened out after a half hour, a quivering sweaty mess. It was only then that this div noticed FTP was still set at 265. Bah. (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6793030-sufferfest-angels)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 09, 2017, 03:54:36 pm
Today I did my first workout with the FTP set to 190.  It was hard but I didn't get totally destroyed, so that sounds OK (or maybe very slightly low - will give it a few more rides before I up it).
The workout was Ebbets, so it involves 5 seconds bursts at >150% of FTP. I only have a dumb trainer, so I've got to change up a couple of gears and then spin it up - this means that my 5 second intervals appear as spikes rather than squares on the chart. Should I try to hold the highest power for 5 seconds, even if it takes a few seconds to get there?
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6806683-ebbetts

Also, how do you guys deal with cold on the trainer? I start my trainer ride at 6am (in the garage), and I need the fan when I'm in the middle of a hard interval, but it makes my arms, hands, and face cold, especially in the recovery valleys. I've been wearing a jacket until I warm up and then taking it off, but it feels weird to wear a long sleeve jersey and have to keep zipping and unzippping...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 09, 2017, 04:49:01 pm
PBP isn’t on my radar yet. I’m supposed to be raising my game for rowing but have been injured and ill for 5 weeks now so it’s not happening.

Oh, really...!

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=92496.msg1908792#msg1908792

 ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 09, 2017, 05:12:55 pm
PBP isn’t on my radar yet. I’m supposed to be raising my game for rowing but have been injured and ill for 5 weeks now so it’s not happening.

Oh, really...!

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=92496.msg1908792#msg1908792

 ;)

https://www.strava.com/activities/376919468

I enjoyed PBP 2015 but my Audax mojo has gone since I got into rowing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on November 09, 2017, 05:44:00 pm

Also, how do you guys deal with cold on the trainer? I start my trainer ride at 6am (in the garage), and I need the fan when I'm in the middle of a hard interval, but it makes my arms, hands, and face cold, especially in the recovery valleys. I've been wearing a jacket until I warm up and then taking it off, but it feels weird to wear a long sleeve jersey and have to keep zipping and unzippping...

For my part, I'm not too bothered by the cold, so I tend to have a fleece which I only wear before in the v cold for a short while when I'm warming up (ordinary cold I don't wear it before), sweat like a Trump acolyte under Mueller's gaze during, and put the fleece on after.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 09, 2017, 07:27:41 pm

Also, how do you guys deal with cold on the trainer? I start my trainer ride at 6am (in the garage), and I need the fan when I'm in the middle of a hard interval, but it makes my arms, hands, and face cold, especially in the recovery valleys. I've been wearing a jacket until I warm up and then taking it off, but it feels weird to wear a long sleeve jersey and have to keep zipping and unzippping...

For my part, I'm not too bothered by the cold, so I tend to have a fleece which I only wear before in the v cold for a short while when I'm warming up (ordinary cold I don't wear it before), sweat like a Trump acolyte under Mueller's gaze during, and put the fleece on after.

Warm up in a base layer.   Take it off before the first interval.   Put it back on again for the warm down.

I do train in the TT position, though, so have to wear gloves to stop my fingers from getting cold.   Frankly, it looks ridiculous when I'm bare chested.   Still, what happens in the garage stays in the garage.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: dim on November 09, 2017, 08:53:35 pm
on a side note .... (most probably a lot of bollocks as wind etc also plays a huge part, but I'm a sucker for statistics)  ;D

if you look at your training routes, divide the elevation by the distance .... the higher the result, the more difficult the route (based on the time ridden)... obviously, a 1000km audax ride even if it's on the flats is a tough task

examples....

LEL .... 1441km long and has 11,128m of climbing .... divide elevation by distance and you get a result of 7.72

PBP .... 615km ... elevation 4290m ... result = 6.9

I have a 42km route that I ride often and that has 300m of climbing ... divide 300 by 42 and the result is 7.17

I also have a route of 135km that has an elevation of 1204 meters (my toughest training route) .... divide the two and you get a result of 8.9

just a guideline so take it with a pinch of salt  ;)



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 09, 2017, 09:36:52 pm
The direct route from my house to the Lion Inn at Blakey is 18km with 760m of climbing - so that would be a dF (dimFactor) of 42.2  ;D

I don't ride it very often!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on November 09, 2017, 10:02:59 pm
Had another go today, FTP duly turned down (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6811423-sufferfest-angels), only this time software failed abysmally to change the power, which left me using gears and cadence to try and match the power. Which is no fun if you have to drop into top gear and spin up to 120 to try to get 300+ watts. Reported to Trainer Road tech, but I suspect they won't know much (from previous experience) Anyone else get that sort of issue?

(the buggering around at 50m is me trying to see if I could get some response by altering settings, cadence etc)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 09, 2017, 10:05:21 pm
Possibly not in Erg mode.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 10, 2017, 08:09:59 pm
Sounds like my workouts - constant resistance, with the variability provided by gears and cadence. If you've got a trainer that is supposed to vary the resistance (lucky you), then either it's in the wrong mode, or the connection between the computer and the trainer isn't working properly. Trainer Road tech support were pretty good when I asked them about how to restart workouts (I've had 2 get stopped by dripping sweat onto my phone   :facepalm: ).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 11, 2017, 08:53:37 pm
So I got a new trainer - Tacx Neo. I'm surprised at how quiet it is. I'm also impressed at how realistic the simulated inertia feel seems to be.

I did a workout straight off in TrainerRoad and the odd thing was that in erg mode it was about 10-20w high of the target wattage. This was not inaccuracy of reported power (not that I've checked) but of control. So the workout was harder than planned. Never mind.

I updated the FW afterwards, and tried a 4 minute demo workout; problem seems to be fixed.

Odd that a brand new device had such a FW issue. Easily resolved, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 11, 2017, 09:18:28 pm
Nice piece of kit.  Those things are worth more than my bike! :)
Strange that the firmware was bad out of the box, but at least it's all sorted now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 11, 2017, 09:22:13 pm
i'm sending my trainer (flux) back to tacx on monday as it has developed a faint rubbing noise - a good excuse for a break and an opportunity to visit blood centre.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 11, 2017, 11:42:12 pm
So I got a new trainer - Tacx Neo. I'm surprised at how quiet it is. I'm also impressed at how realistic the simulated inertia feel seems to be.

I did a workout straight off in TrainerRoad and the odd thing was that in erg mode it was about 10-20w high of the target wattage. This was not inaccuracy of reported power (not that I've checked) but of control. So the workout was harder than planned. Never mind.

I updated the FW afterwards, and tried a 4 minute demo workout; problem seems to be fixed.

Odd that a brand new device had such a FW issue. Easily resolved, though.

They do look nice. I bought a discounted Bushido last year - I appreciate that both that and the Neo generate their own electrickery - and it's been very good. It is better in higher gears/speed though and, perhaps fortunately, does simulate quite as steep a hill as the Neo.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 13, 2017, 10:18:24 pm
ftp day today; didn't pace very well and paid the price in the final third of the test. i'll do a 2x8min next week to see how well the two compare

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/cb4a4865f5cf1e6fd915fbc5728d668d.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 14, 2017, 10:10:34 am
I did Huffaker this morning. Wow that was hard. After the first 2 workouts of SSB2, I was wondering if I'd set my FTP a little too low. Hell no!  :sick:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6844210-huffaker-

I'm gonna get a remote control power switch for my fan. That way when I'm getting cold I can turn it off!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 14, 2017, 08:37:27 pm
Back in. Enforced >24h without food Sunday => Monday led to heavy legs. Decided test would be a waste of time so did this. https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6850485-abbot

Turned it down by 15% as was a bit tough. Given the tired legs it’s probably too early to say I need to drop FTP further. HR got to 193 so still proving that formula is fairly useless.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 14, 2017, 10:38:56 pm
Had a poor TR 20 min FTP attempt tonight. Lower than I manage outside when not really trying. Bit weary, but wondering if I need some cooling too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on November 15, 2017, 05:04:04 am
Almost 6 weeks since my spill and orthopaedic consultant at yesterday's fracture clinic suggested that I could get back on the turbo as soon as my shoulder coped with it. I won't be back on the road for another 6 months though because it wouldn't cope another impact until then.

My new turbo was delivered yesterday,  an Elite Direto smart trainer, which will get set up inside. Mrs PC won't let me train in the garage at the moment as she needs to hear if I fall off! My plan now, after 6 weeks of detraining will be 4 weeks of gentle spinning the legs round and calorie counting to lose 4 kg, then 3 weeks of endurance work (4hr/day) followed by starting the interval training when I go back to work in January.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 15, 2017, 03:53:05 pm
Had a poor TR 20 min FTP attempt tonight. Lower than I manage outside when not really trying. Bit weary, but wondering if I need some cooling too.

Cooling is pretty much essential indoors. Your performance will suffer as the body spends more energy removing waste heat and also limits your work rate in order to avoid dangerous overheating.

I have an 18" floor fan which provides a good airflow, with 3 speed settings.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 15, 2017, 07:07:29 pm
Had a poor TR 20 min FTP attempt tonight. Lower than I manage outside when not really trying. Bit weary, but wondering if I need some cooling too.

Cooling is pretty much essential indoors. Your performance will suffer as the body spends more energy removing waste heat and also limits your work rate in order to avoid dangerous overheating.

I have an 18" floor fan which provides a good airflow, with 3 speed settings.
I definitely find fan cooling is necessary for the harder efforts, even if the ambient temperature is close to 0. I got this one - it's really effective, though reasonably loud. https://www.screwfix.com/p/ft45-14ap-18-high-velocity-floor-fan-220-240v/6335t Given the cost of the rest of the indoor training kit I think it's pretty good value!
Do you change the speeds during the ride? Mine has 3 speeds, but the dial is on the back of the fan, so I'd have to get off the bike to change it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 15, 2017, 07:23:54 pm
i use the same (or very similar) fan on the max setting with the windows open; i train indoors so the ambient temperature is never below 20deg. i wouldn't mind another fan cooling my back from above/behind.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on November 15, 2017, 11:10:17 pm
Anyone had a romp with Tacx new software beta  yet? first impression of the UI is that it maintains the Tacx tradition of utter and complete shite. right from the off, you need a multi word password to register, of about 14 characters! Mine is something like Fuckthissteamingpileofshite

No indication of the projected costs, no easy to find howto, not much really. The GPS workout sounds as if it might be interesting, but knowing Tack implementation, probably not. apparently the maximum grade of the Tourmalet is.... 56%. Some hill

Can't even see how it links to trainer, but maybe it just does.

https://cloud.tacx.com is where it is if you fancy
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 16, 2017, 07:08:01 am
Thanks for the advice on cooling. Base training is postponed until after a trip to Srewfix at the weekend to buy a fan and a long piece of wire.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 17, 2017, 10:29:57 pm
Did Ansel Adams tonight. IF=0.98 for an hour. Felt ok. Maybe my threshold is even set slightly low. Will test soon.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 18, 2017, 08:48:57 am
Did Ansel Adams tonight. IF=0.98 for an hour. Felt ok. Maybe my threshold is even set slightly low. Will test soon.
That looks brutal. If that's easy, maybe your FTP is low...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 18, 2017, 11:44:07 am
First lot of over-unders in this cycle.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6879748-tunemah

As you can see, I made a valiant attempt to get started on interval-3 but to no avail - my legs weren't having it!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 18, 2017, 12:08:04 pm
Interested in which Trainer Road plans people are following?

Before kicking off when I get my fan in place, I'm trying to decide between 5 days and 3 days. If you're go for 5 I'll undoibtedly replace some sessions with outdoor rides or runs, but if 3 then I'm likely to supplement rather than replace.

Does the experienced audience have a view?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 18, 2017, 12:50:12 pm
Did Ansel Adams tonight. IF=0.98 for an hour. Felt ok. Maybe my threshold is even set slightly low. Will test soon.
That looks brutal. If that's easy, maybe your FTP is low...

Solomons is probably worse; though I don't think easy's the word. I have tended to find workouts of the VO2max type ok, whereas trying to sit near threshold for longer intervals is more challenging. What that suggests is I have decent aerobic capacity but lacked muscular endurance which comes from the threshold and sweet spot work. I've completed Ansel Adams before with my FTP at 280W on the Kickr.

I'm going to pick a couple of longer but easier ones for the weekend. Probably Antelope - 1 or -2 and Junneau - 1 or -2. Then rest on Monday and 2x8m test on Tuesday then start a plan.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on November 18, 2017, 01:35:04 pm
Interested in which Trainer Road plans people are following?

Before kicking off when I get my fan in place, I'm trying to decide between 5 days and 3 days. If you're go for 5 I'll undoibtedly replace some sessions with outdoor rides or runs, but if 3 then I'm likely to supplement rather than replace.

Does the experienced audience have a view?

I create my own plan, using mostly my own workouts created using the excellent workout creator.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 18, 2017, 01:43:54 pm
Interested in which Trainer Road plans people are following?

Before kicking off when I get my fan in place, I'm trying to decide between 5 days and 3 days. If you're go for 5 I'll undoibtedly replace some sessions with outdoor rides or runs, but if 3 then I'm likely to supplement rather than replace.

Does the experienced audience have a view?
I didn't have a lot of miles in my legs to work from, so I wanted to stay "low volume". That's what the podcast seems to recommend, unless you know that you can handle a lot of training stress. Starting with the base seemed logical, so Sweet Spot Base low volume was what I chose.
I've done the first one, and I definitely boosted my FTP.  I'm now 2 weeks into the second one and it's a lot harder, but in a good way. The theory is to do the sustained power build and then see how I go on the 40k TT plan.
Cheers
Duncan
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 19, 2017, 02:28:57 am
Sweet spot high volume is a bit of a brute. So if not already used to a high training load starting with low or mid volume I and then stepping up to mid or high II after 6 weeks makes sense.

I did Geiger today which is three x 12m rolling sweet spot intervals. This felt harder than Ansel Adams and would tend to confirm my theory about a lack of muscular endurance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 19, 2017, 02:30:46 am
First lot of over-unders in this cycle.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6879748-tunemah

As you can see, I made a valiant attempt to get started on interval-3 but to no avail - my legs weren't having it!

Been there. Over unders are one of the toughest forms of workout but they do seem to be effective at raising FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 20, 2017, 12:08:16 pm
So I gave myself a proper kicking over the weekend, culminating on Sunday with Solomons which is always a brute. Considering I'd done Ansel Adams on Friday, Geiger on Saturday, this was quite hard work though I hung in there and completed all the intervals.

I now need a rest day or two. Absolutely wiped out today.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 20, 2017, 12:39:09 pm
First lot of over-unders in this cycle.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6879748-tunemah

As you can see, I made a valiant attempt to get started on interval-3 but to no avail - my legs weren't having it!

Been there. Over unders are one of the toughest forms of workout but they do seem to be effective at raising FTP.
I quite like the over-unders (relatively speaking). It's the VO2 max stuff I find hardest. My upcoming week looks like it consists entirely of one or the other:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4571/38484601876_11754ff852_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21CKDmy)2017-11-20_12-30-49 (https://flic.kr/p/21CKDmy) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

Your last 3 days sounds like hell!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 20, 2017, 02:08:17 pm
Solomons is one I discovered quite early on and it’s my favourite workout to get a heap of TSS in after missing some training. I’ve yet to be brave enough to try its big brother, Irvine, which adds more intensity and extends the tempo block in the middle at the expense of shorter recoveries in the final block of 2m intervals.

For you workouts this week: mills is ok as the decline in intensity in the second half of the intervals makes them a big more forgiving. In a 2m vo2max interval it tends to be the first 30s are fine then subsequent 30s are progressively harder with the final 30s being challenging.

Jepson is an interesting one. Those 5s bursts are fine - it’s the next 30s that hurt!

Palisade is ok. The ones that I’ve found really tough are Prater and Leconte. They really hurt and will find out a too high FTP setting.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 21, 2017, 08:59:14 am
Mills was hard, especially spinning at 100. I might have been able to hang on at 90rpm, but at 100 I had to turn the intensity down a couple of %.
I've done Palisade before and it was OK. Jepson looks interesting - I did Clark last week which was OK - I guess Jepson is going to be harder.
I'm on a dumb trainer with virtual power, so getting the gear ratios right is another complication.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 21, 2017, 09:15:39 pm
So I decided not to test tonight as still carrying a bit of fatigue from the weekend and I don't think I'd learn anything. My FTP is set in the right ball-park.

Instead, I did Ansel Adams again. The fatigue showed and my average HR was 2bpm higher.

I'm starting on sweet spot base mid volume. I chose this because I have got to fit in weights and core work for rowing, and once I my wrist is healed, actually rowing, and the high volume plan leaves little room for other stuff.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on November 21, 2017, 09:37:55 pm
I'm experimenting with Xert again I quite like how it is supposed to extract your FTP from the data without tests but I'm less happy about the lack of explanation of the concepts and methods. 

I'm playing with their fitness planner and also some of their workouts.. but I'm on the fence still.  It doesn't combine all activities as easily as say Training Peaks (so walks and none power based rides all get some form of TSS associated with them on TP).  I'm also a bit confused with how some of the bits work... I managed to exhaust MPA (sort of like how much rechargeable energy you have in the tank) at the weekend on the ride, clearly shown on my Garmin in their app but the data when loaded up does not show the same event as experienced on the road... I just can't get a straight answer out of the user base (they seem to be the only people providing support)....

My Trainer Road comes up for renewal in a couple of weeks.  It worked for my training for LEL so is a known quantity - but there is something about Xert which isn't letting me give up yet.... plus the gamification (medals for break throughs etc) make a ride interesting  :facepalm:

Hmmmm...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 24, 2017, 12:58:22 pm
Jepson this morning sucked so badly.  I seem to suffer when it's cold (maybe I should leave my fan off for the warmup and first set), and Fish and Chips last night  didn't help. What was supposed to be a threshold workout was much more of a sweetspot one. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 24, 2017, 01:35:25 pm
I turn the fan off after the warm-up, usually.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 26, 2017, 08:18:48 pm
Fan now working - screwfix didn't have any in stock. Much better. Did Goddard 45 tonight as a test and got all the way through without problem.

 TSS 50+ based on an FTP estimated by Garmin at 242 watts. Not sure how representative that I'd really, but it's a starter for 10 anyway. If I struggle to get through sessions then perhaps back it off and if too easy then we'll see.

Thanks for the tips. Next I'll see if I can work out how to post the post ride picture.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 26, 2017, 09:13:15 pm
Fan off for the warmup this morning - much better. I find under/overs easier to do, but make my ITB flare up a bit.
Only problem was that I got a puncture about 20 minutes from the end!  ::-) It made the tyre slip on the roller a little, but I finished the workout making sure I was smooth to minimise slip. No obvious cause for the hole, so I just stuck a new tube in and I'll see how it goes on Tuesday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 28, 2017, 01:23:54 pm
I sucked so badly this morning! Couldn't sustain the first interval at 120% of FTP, and couldn't get anywhere near the power for the second interval. HR went pretty high though (169 - the max I've seen recently was 173 on my over-done FTP test, and I did all of Mills last week with a max of 165). I feel pretty rubbish too (stomach issues), so I'm going to take the week easy and repeat the TR week next week.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6956998-spencer
Hopefully it's a tired/ill thing. It would really suck if it turned out that my puncture and subsequent tube change had affected the way that Virtual Power works. The pressure is almost the same (75psi vs 76 psi a few weeks ago), and I used the quick release to ensure that the roller is in the same place. Makes me want to get a proper power meter to ensure repeatability (among other reasons!).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 28, 2017, 01:59:24 pm
Direct drive smart trainers rock.  Not the cheap option though. Power meter is more versatile as can be used outdoors.

Just finished Mills 45 which is a substitute. I did Sunday’s workout yesterday and feel tired but still was able to turn it up by 5% after the first block of 3.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6959491

Probably will be turning the FTP up soon.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 28, 2017, 03:15:07 pm
A Direct Drive smart trainer is >£700 new. Power meters start around 300, which is verging on affordable.
Sounds like your FTP can go up...

Edit - this looks like a great deal (£285 inc post)
https://www.probikekit.co.uk/cycling-power-meters/4iiii-precision-2.0-3d-power-meter-105-5800-black/11273315.html?affil=awin&utm_source=AWin-78888&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=AffiliateWin&awc=3977_1511883369_4e701a16130b978c910bec4f0f26ad0c

Only question left is if I'm happy with left only.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 28, 2017, 06:41:52 pm
so my trainer had to be sent back to netherlands for inspection/repair and is now either stuck in one of parcelforce's depots or gone walkies (it's been two weeks since i've sent it). have been on the phone with pf yesterday and today and they are "still searching". hmm ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 28, 2017, 09:13:49 pm
Which trainer do (did!) you have?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 28, 2017, 10:15:36 pm
Which trainer do (did!) you have?
flux; i hope i'll still get it back or otherwise a compensation.
the frustrating part is that i'm missing out on workouts and all the recent gains will be undone.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on November 28, 2017, 10:32:06 pm
I'm thinking of selling my Kickr and buying the newer version.... unsure of what they go for and its blooming heavy!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 29, 2017, 12:41:25 am
I'm thinking of selling my Kickr and buying the newer version.... unsure of what they go for and its blooming heavy!

I saw them going for decent prices (from sellers point of view) on eBay. People
quoting £70 p&p. Much easier if you still have the box.

I sold mine (2015 model) to a local chap for £250 - reckon he got a bargain. Saves postage hassle though.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 29, 2017, 07:02:44 am
I'm thinking of selling my Kickr and buying the newer version.... unsure of what they go for and its blooming heavy!
If you look at completed listings on eBay, they seem to be in the 5-600 quid range for the 1st gen kickr.  What's the difference between that and the latest one?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 29, 2017, 09:10:06 am
I'm thinking of selling my Kickr and buying the newer version.... unsure of what they go for and its blooming heavy!
If you look at completed listings on eBay, they seem to be in the 5-600 quid range for the 1st gen kickr.  What's the difference between that and the latest one?

Accuracy, noise, bike compatibility are the big improvements.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 30, 2017, 12:19:01 am
Mountfield tonight, after spinning for a bit while the laptop updated itself. following warm up with a bit of endurance and threshhold, 3 x 12 minute intervals at c.85% ftp including low and high cadence practice and a bit of aero on thr drops. Garmin reckoned 26 hours recovery.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 30, 2017, 08:37:13 am
Just Brasstown to do tonight to finish the low volume sweet spot base.  Then I am going to take it up to the medium volume sustained power build.  That should take me to the end of January and I may repeat it to take me through to Easter.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 30, 2017, 12:01:34 pm
Spent the first couple of weeks of my re-start buggering about with the resistance on my turbo so I could work by speed/heart rate.   I've spent a load on new kit for the race bike this Winter so still not equipped with a power meter.   Early sessions were, therefore, a bit hit-and-miss.

I then managed to fall off on a greasy roundabout 10 days ago.   Nothing broken but some painful grazing down my right side.

I'm now working quite nicely and racking up 18-20hrs per week.   I'm not going to race until April earliest, so plenty of time to build.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 30, 2017, 01:38:29 pm
Rob, 18-20 hours a week!!!!!  I really must realign my priorities!  I am struggling at the moment to do 7 hours a week
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 30, 2017, 02:38:19 pm
Rob, 18-20 hours a week!!!!!  I really must realign my priorities!  I am struggling at the moment to do 7 hours a week

Or even 3 or 4....
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 30, 2017, 02:47:58 pm
18-20 hours is a lot of volume. Our rowing club is asking for under 10h for the senior squad.

I’m still injured so the trainer time is vital for keeping myself fit in the meantime. I’m on the mid volume base plan which is still having some intensity.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 30, 2017, 02:50:46 pm
I am so glad that the rest of us are not managing Rob's level of training.  I felt very inadequate!  part of me would like to see what I could do with that level of training but life does not allow it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 30, 2017, 02:55:37 pm
10hrs commuting
1hr lunchtime ride on a Wednesday
3 sessions on the turbo (Tue & Thu eve + Sun am) each week so roughly 3hrs total
4-5hr road ride on a Saturday

I'd only class the turbo sessions as intense, though, and even then not that high.   I'm coached and don't ask a lot of questions but the focus this Winter seems to be on more volume and less intensity, which I'm fine with.   This time last year was hard and I struggled to finish some sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 30, 2017, 03:00:21 pm
I am so glad that the rest of us are not managing Rob's level of training.  I felt very inadequate!  part of me would like to see what I could do with that level of training but life does not allow it.

Every year I finish still a) married and b) employed is a bonus.

I think this might be my last year of racing for a while.   I find the process of training not that interesting and find myself going through the motions.   Those of you more analytical than myself are probably better with the data crunching.   Then, every now and again, you cross a finish line and are amazed at the speed you can travel at.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 30, 2017, 03:16:18 pm
I'm struggling to do 3.5 hours of (intense) turbo time.
20 hours would kill me!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 30, 2017, 04:02:02 pm
Rob, so not that different on turbo time.  The 10 hours of commuting makes the big difference.  I move around during the day which makes commuting difficult.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 30, 2017, 04:21:13 pm
Rob, so not that different on turbo time.  The 10 hours of commuting makes the big difference.  I move around during the day which makes commuting difficult.

Indeed.   There's a chance we'll move office in the Spring and I need to check about facilities.   It has formed the basis of my training for a few years but I now ride it at higher intensity than I used to.    There's a lot of sprinting between traffic lights.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 30, 2017, 04:35:15 pm
so my trainer had to be sent back to netherlands for inspection/repair and is now either stuck in one of parcelforce's depots or gone walkies (it's been two weeks since i've sent it). have been on the phone with pf yesterday and today and they are "still searching". hmm ::-)
as the depot cannot locate the box, they've directed me to claims dept. not too hopeful at the moment and it might take up to a month.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 30, 2017, 11:08:24 pm
so my trainer had to be sent back to netherlands for inspection/repair and is now either stuck in one of parcelforce's depots or gone walkies (it's been two weeks since i've sent it). have been on the phone with pf yesterday and today and they are "still searching". hmm ::-)
as the depot cannot locate the box, they've directed me to claims dept. not too hopeful at the moment and it might take up to a month.

Really annoying and frustrating.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 03, 2017, 12:18:46 am
So I'm thinking today's workout (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/5481-tunemah) (Tunemah) looks like it will be too easy.

Then I stumble across this one (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/1816-dana) (Dana).

From the blurb:

Quote
Over-unders are hard when they only push you slightly above FTP, but these brutes will hold you to an even higher performance standard and increase your ability to ride well above FTP before settling back into an effort level only slightly below your FTP.

Work of this nature will challenge your highest-end aerobic power, your muscular endurance, your aerobic base, and your ability to truly suffer - all very valuable to the performance-conscious bike racer.

I did wonder if I was asking too much of myself. I considered attempting the -1 or -2 versions instead. However I decided to go for it, I could always finish early if it was too hard. I found it surprisingly easy* in the end. Though eating Doro Wat as my pre-workout meal (about 2h beforehand) wasn't the smartest choice!

That FTP bump needs to happen soon.

* FSVO easy. I never felt close to cracking, but it did hurt.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 03, 2017, 04:08:39 pm
I was planning on going for a ride outside today and then restarting wk 4 on Tuesday. But it's been fairly horrible outside (except for when I had stuff on around lunch). Now it's getting dark  - can I be bothered to go do some random TR ride in the garage?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 03, 2017, 04:44:41 pm
Quote
can I be bothered to go do some random TR ride in the garage?

Definitely. You know you should do it and that you will be letting us all down if you don't and that it will weigh on your conscience.  (I think that is all the pleaser driver triggers I can get into one sentence)

Anyway we have all been out for our long ride this morning before you were up!! (smug look).

My motivation was that our grand daughter was bringing her parents to give granny her birthday present!!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 03, 2017, 04:45:31 pm
I was planning on going for a ride outside today and then restarting wk 4 on Tuesday. But it's been fairly horrible outside (except for when I had stuff on around lunch). Now it's getting dark  - can I be bothered to go do some random TR ride in the garage?

Sounds like me - two trips to Leeds to take and recover t'bairn from music, 2 hours sorting the shed with Mrs S and now it's dark and the roads are covered in slippy salt. Oh, and my legs are heavy from yesterdays 10 mile run.

Maybe, or maybe wait to tomorrow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 03, 2017, 05:38:08 pm
Quote
can I be bothered to go do some random TR ride in the garage?

Definitely. You know you should do it and that you will be letting us all down if you don't and that it will weigh on your conscience.  (I think that is all the pleaser driver triggers I can get into one sentence)

Anyway we have all been out for our long ride this morning before you were up!! (smug look).

My motivation was that our grand daughter was bringing her parents to give granny her birthday present!!
Thanks. :)
Sadly I got hijacked into doing some DIY, so I'm not going to get to it now. This morning I had to wait in for a tumbledrier to be delivered, otherwise I would have just got up and got on with it then. I'll do a proper stretch and some core work instead. :)
I'm feeling better, and I should be properly rested for Tuesday though, so no excuses for not getting the VO2 stuff done properly this time.  :-X
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 03, 2017, 06:19:24 pm
DuncanM  that was all said tongue in cheek.  I have many problems of a similar nature.  I try to remind myself that it is a hobby and not how I earn my daily crust!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 03, 2017, 06:43:32 pm
Last night’s X factor being put on the telly fixed my lack of fu. Now I’m knackered.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 03, 2017, 07:50:36 pm
This autumn was going to be 200+ miles per week centred around my commute but after 5 weeks of doing nothing but rebuilding body bits I managed 2.7 miles in week 1 struggling to beat 5mph. Increased slowly, up to 26 miles last week and this week hit 106 miles with today's 30 miles at 17.6mph. All in virtual Belgium on my new Elite Direto.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 05, 2017, 02:15:28 pm
I got my arse in gear and repeated Spencer (after failing last Tuesday and taking the week off).
I still suck at VO2 intervals, but I got through 4 and a half at 96% intensity before cracking:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7016905-spencer
Darwin on Thursday might be a bit more up my street (4x10 minutes at 95-99% FTP).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 05, 2017, 03:37:46 pm
I got my arse in gear and repeated Spencer (after failing last Tuesday and taking the week off).
I still suck at VO2 intervals, but I got through 4 and a half at 96% intensity before cracking:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7016905-spencer
Darwin on Thursday might be a bit more up my street (4x10 minutes at 95-99% FTP).

They're a bit tasty! 3 minutes at 120%. I'm still in the sweet spot stuff, but actually prefer the vo2max type efforts really,

Yesterday, having had a few dismal days I just ran instead (late home from meeting). So, 5.6 miles at 7:17 pace and, based on footpod power meter, 300 watts metabolic cost average power. My bike ftp is considerably lower;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 05, 2017, 08:25:37 pm
I got my arse in gear and repeated Spencer (after failing last Tuesday and taking the week off).
I still suck at VO2 intervals, but I got through 4 and a half at 96% intensity before cracking:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7016905-spencer
Darwin on Thursday might be a bit more up my street (4x10 minutes at 95-99% FTP).

They're a bit tasty! 3 minutes at 120%. I'm still in the sweet spot stuff, but actually prefer the vo2max type efforts really,
Mills is a good introduction to the VO2 stuff - 3 minutes starting at 120% but fading to 115%. Keeping the power there for the full 3 minutes is super hard though. The warmdown was really long though - I don't know why the gaps between intervals aren't bigger (or more intervals stuffed in).
Running is hard work. That sounds like good pace. And it doesn't take as long to get a good workout as a bike ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 05, 2017, 11:13:51 pm
Chaps, Mills is 2 minutes intervals. Spencer is probably a fair bit harder. Mills 45 is the same as Mills but with shorter recoveries.

Have a look at Givens - 3 minute intervals ranging from 110% to 130%. Ouch. I did that a couple of times this year, struggled, the next time I turned it down by 5% and set a 3-minute power PB.




Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 06, 2017, 06:04:31 am
Spencer is a version of a classic Billat interval session. My version has a much better warm up and a shorter cool down.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/166650-ak-billat-5x3
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 06, 2017, 09:00:38 am
Chaps, Mills is 2 minutes intervals. Spencer is probably a fair bit harder. Mills 45 is the same as Mills but with shorter recoveries.

Have a look at Givens - 3 minute intervals ranging from 110% to 130%. Ouch. I did that a couple of times this year, struggled, the next time I turned it down by 5% and set a 3-minute power PB.
Good point about Mills - 2 minutes, and down to 110%.  There are 9 of them in an hour though, compared to 5 of the Spencer ones. Givens looks brutal, but at least the 130% ones are in the middle, which should make it slightly more manageable.
Spencer is a version of a classic Billat interval session. My version has a much better warm up and a shorter cool down.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/166650-ak-billat-5x3
That looks just as painful, but hopefully the warmup makes it more doable. Do you follow the TR plans and just switch in your workouts, or do you make your own (or have a coach)?

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 06, 2017, 06:53:12 pm
I make my own plan, I don't have a coach but I am a qualified cycling coach and also teach the planning and preparation module of A Level PE course! I mainly ride my created TR workouts with some of the library ones for the less intensive stuff.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 06, 2017, 09:03:28 pm
It's funny, is m used to running so fine it easier to sustain a more intensive effort level.

Last night I did most of Goddard - 10 x 30 second vo2 max intervals,  it then the laptop ran out of juice so I just do a couple more 3 minute efforts.

Tonight I did Monitor - 6 x 6 minute sweet spot intervals with 2 minute recoveries. I also increased the ffo setting by a few watts before starting. That 'felt' more like it.

Hoping my Garmin training status will return to productive as the missed sessions last week have thrown it and me off a bit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 06, 2017, 09:17:44 pm
Carter tonight nice and easy 10W+ FTP since two weeks ago yet lower average HR. It’s slowly coming along.

I find the sweet spot stuff like Monitor more demanding. I think that means it’s exposing a weakness - muscular endurance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 06, 2017, 10:45:30 pm
Carter tonight nice and easy 10W+ FTP since two weeks ago yet lower average HR. It’s slowly coming along.

I find the sweet spot stuff like Monitor more demanding. I think that means it’s exposing a weakness - muscular endurance.

Yes, my weak spot too. Really a direct consequence of trying to fit training in around a middle aged life. Still, long steady rides and runs  help as do the more intense sustained efforts and threshold sessions. It's just a matter of time at the intensity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 07, 2017, 09:33:10 am
Carter tonight nice and easy 10W+ FTP since two weeks ago yet lower average HR. It’s slowly coming along.

I find the sweet spot stuff like Monitor more demanding. I think that means it’s exposing a weakness - muscular endurance.

Yes, my weak spot too. Really a direct consequence of trying to fit training in around a middle aged life. Still, long steady rides and runs  help as do the more intense sustained efforts and threshold sessions. It's just a matter of time at the intensity.
I can do Sweetspot and Threshold stuff, but VO2 max kills me.  What's that weakness?
Todays threshold workout: https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7037848-darwin

This looks like a great deal for a dual leg power meter (esp with the extra 10% DCR discount). http://www.clevertraining.co.uk/watteam-powerbeat-single-dual-2-pack-power-meter
I assume you guys would recommend getting proper power (I'm currently on Virtual Power)?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 07, 2017, 02:27:34 pm
For TrainerRoad virtual power is fine, at least it is on my simple elite fluid turbo
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on December 07, 2017, 03:51:12 pm
so my trainer had to be sent back to netherlands for inspection/repair and is now either stuck in one of parcelforce's depots or gone walkies (it's been two weeks since i've sent it). have been on the phone with pf yesterday and today and they are "still searching". hmm ::-)
as the depot cannot locate the box, they've directed me to claims dept. not too hopeful at the moment and it might take up to a month.

Really annoying and frustrating.
after a lot of communication via phone and email (no one willing to take responsibility) i've finally received an note that the replacement unit has been shipped. fingers xed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 08, 2017, 08:08:38 am
Run day yesterday and evening engagement with a client, so snook out for 6 miles of Leeds canal towpath at lunchtime.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 08, 2017, 08:36:12 am
Annoying niggle with the left knee.   Bit of a cold.   Still sticking to the plan but may have to ease off for a few days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 08, 2017, 04:21:55 pm
Legs very stiff last night so quite good to have a couple of quiet days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 09, 2017, 11:52:57 am
Freezing outside, and cold coming on, so bailed when I had used all my tissues and couldn't breathe well enough to maintain threshold level effort. Legs felt OK, not so lungs/throat. :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7076980-leconte
With any luck I can avoid the worst of the cold and get my last hard week (wk 5) of the Sweet Spot Base II done properly this week. I want to have a few random rides over Christmas and then start the Build phase (sustained power) in the first week of January.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 09, 2017, 02:13:47 pm
Leconte is one of TR’s toughest workouts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 09, 2017, 03:29:14 pm
Frosty morning so did the turbo alternative which was 1h45m long.   At that point it was relatively decent outside so did 2h30m on the road.   I should sleep well tonight.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 09, 2017, 07:02:42 pm
McAdie tonight. 90m; 4x12m over under intervals.

This stuff feels a bit too easy. I think +10W might have been too conservative.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 11, 2017, 10:21:36 pm
TR session including 4 x 8 minute spinups, starting at 235W for 4 minutes, then 3 @ 225W then 1 @ 220W increasing cadence throughout. FTP is currently set at 250W in TR, but not sure if that's accurate. I'm getting through the workouts and they're hard but survivable.

Still every little helps:) plus the Garmin gave me a slightly improved vo2max estimate afterwards.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 14, 2017, 09:02:14 am
I did Lamark this morning (4x 10 minute at FTP).  I set it down at 95% because I did loads of snow shovelling on the weekend and really struggled. It was OK, and my knee was not a problem at all, but my hamstrings are battered! I've never had a workout on the trainer on the hoods (aero is different) where my hamstrings limited me before! And when I got off and went to stretch my quads, my hamstrings cramped! Still, they will sort themselves out, and I'm back on the horse for the last week before Christmas. :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7172156-lamarck
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 14, 2017, 10:35:36 am
I hadn't used my TT bike since July but use it on the turbo.

My hamstrings have cramped a couple of time particularly during the longer sustained intervals.   I try to get out the saddle during the 'rests' a couple of times.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 14, 2017, 11:34:47 am
If I had a TT bike then it would be on the turbo. I'm thinking of proposing a deal to my other half that if I hit 250W FTP (pitiful I know, but we all have to start somewhere! ;) ) then I'll have earned one!

Normally, if I pretend I'm in some big solo breakaway and put my forearms on the bars then my hamstrings start to feel it after about a minute. Today, towards the end of each interval they were feeling it when sat up as much as I can without actually letting go of the bars!
Getting out of the saddle is nice to stretch, and it also stops any numbness that might be on it's way if I don't sit quite right. I try to do it at least once on a 60 minute ride - I did it today a couple of times, but it didn't help the hamstrings much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 14, 2017, 07:41:54 pm
Did the test.

I had gone 210 then 220 manually. Still felt too easy. Didn’t expect too much through. Thought I’d maybe hit 225W.

Nope. 233W. https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7182459-8-minute-ftp-test

So despite 6 weeks off that’s +10W since September.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 14, 2017, 09:13:04 pm
That's really impressive.  Keep it up.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 16, 2017, 01:22:11 pm
It never rains but it pours.
Today I wanted to do Mary Austin - my first set of power steps, and they look like a painful but rewarding.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7208646-mary-austin
My left hamstring was tight when spinning through the first interval, but I completed it OK and stopped to stretch in the rest. Not longer after I got back on, the Speed/Cadence sensor dropped out (using my phone for TR). It came back, but dropped again in the second interval. This time it wouldn't come back, and the bike computer wouldn't pick it up either, so maybe the battery has died? I have no other power measurement device (and I've been having issues with my phone not picking up the HR strap), so I gave up on the workout.

I've got a day off on Tuesday - I was going to do Kaiser because I missed it last Tuesday, but I'm probably better off doing Mary Austin again Tuesday morning and doing Kaiser on Thursday before work. At least this means my rest week is going to be Christmas week, so if I do get out on the bike I can just go ride outside for fun.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 16, 2017, 09:18:23 pm
Feeling the effects of the 2x8m test.

Because I missed tues and weds I'm trying to get as much of this week in anyway. So 2x8m on Thursday, and then Pettit -1 which is an easy workout was ok Yesterday but I bailed quite early on Antelope - 4 which I also did yesterday. There was also lots of napping.

Today I was up at 6:45 to cox a 4 in a private 5km head race, which we won. Fell asleep on the sofa again this afternoon while digesting the post-race fry-up, and then did today's workout (now back on schedule). This is a 1h30 over-under workout (Palisade). Still some fatigue in the legs, and upping FTP mid-plan also tends to make things harder than intended since the plan has a built-in progression anyway. So I turned it down by 5% after the first interval, which makes it only about 1% harder than before. I did turn it up by 1% later on, but for the final interval I went back to 95% as 96% was pushing me hard.

I question whether with the amount of fatigue in my legs I can do Eclipse tomorrow. I might pick something longer with lower IF.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 17, 2017, 08:04:13 pm
Did both of this weekends sessions on the road, ignoring the turbo alternative.   This was largely dumb due to the conditions and I totally underdelivered on today's 5hr ride.

Looking at the plan the turbo sessions pick up in volume from next week but are still largely aerobic.   Leaving the same gear on but increasing the resistance one notch.

Physiology tomorrow for knee/left calf.   Osteopath on Tuesday to have the back loosened as I haven't been since July.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 17, 2017, 10:36:21 pm
Missed Wed, Thurs, Sat for reasons not to do with me. Managed Friday's rest day... as didn't et to Tan Hill either.

So ran 12 1/2 miles to day to burn up some frustration.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 19, 2017, 11:16:46 am
Week 5 of sweet spot base mid-volume starts tonight.

I'm so looking forwards to the recovery week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 19, 2017, 07:13:33 pm
Week 5 is hard! Good luck!
I was going to re-do Mary Austin today, but I had to take my old car to the garage. It's moved, so I ended up doing a 1hr 20 ride on the road instead. It was dark, I wasn't sure where I was going, and then the bike path wasn't a great surface, so I couldn't give it the beans properly, but I still went hard. That will have to do as the longer ride for this week.
Is it possible to import a ride from Strava into TR? It would be good to get the TSS correct...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 19, 2017, 07:31:00 pm
Week 5 is hard! Good luck!
I was going to re-do Mary Austin today, but I had to take my old car to the garage. It's moved, so I ended up doing a 1hr 20 ride on the road instead. It was dark, I wasn't sure where I was going, and then the bike path wasn't a great surface, so I couldn't give it the beans properly, but I still went hard. That will have to do as the longer ride for this week.
Is it possible to import a ride from Strava into TR? It would be good to get the TSS correct...

Not yet - you can, as far as I'm aware, only tick "done outdoors".

TR have been talking about this feature for a while. There's talk of a big update coming soon, maybe it will finally be there.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 19, 2017, 10:43:59 pm
What a difference a day off makes - that was fine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on December 22, 2017, 08:03:07 pm
following a five week break (almost no cycling/training) did a 2x8 test. i paced myself hoping a ~10w drop from my previous ftp, but couldn't even sustain that.

new ftp = old ftp - 14w :-[
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 22, 2017, 08:51:25 pm
My CTL (Chronic Training Load) took a hit this autumn but it’s now going in the right direction.

Two more weeks of muscular endurance work using Sufferfest/VeloReality then it's onto speed work with TR.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRrbKzhW4AYDbXN.jpg
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 23, 2017, 02:41:43 pm
New build started this week.  Volume up a bit and using a higher resistance setting so less spinny.   Levels between 95 & 110rpm now when I was topping out at 120rpm last week.

5hr road ride this morning and then 90 mins on the turbo tomorrow morning.   I will take Monday and Tuesday off completely as I have felt a little smashed and my mother will give me a hard time if I turn up with a bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 23, 2017, 04:14:21 pm
Very little on turbo recently but a lot more pilates, squats  and commuting on the winter tyres.  I really missed that last year when i did almost entirely turbo work.

Went to work on the good bike this morning for a change and it was so easy!  The difference between the winter studded tyres and normal tyres is so great.

(Now I know that you will all tell me different bikes, different materials, etc.  I accept all that BUT the tyres make it so much harder)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 23, 2017, 06:13:01 pm
One more workout and then it's recovery week.

Today's was McAdie + 1 which if I'd tried it last Saturday I'd have turned it down. Completed on target, just.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 24, 2017, 06:56:44 am
New build started this week.  Volume up a bit and using a higher resistance setting so less spinny.   Levels between 95 & 110rpm now when I was topping out at 120rpm last week.

5hr road ride this morning and then 90 mins on the turbo tomorrow morning.   I will take Monday and Tuesday off completely as I have felt a little smashed and my mother will give me a hard time if I turn up with a bike.

Sneak a pair of running shoes in? That's my plan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 24, 2017, 06:57:56 am
LAst week was rubbish, so 9.5 mile run yesterday and outdoor ride today. Biggest issue is time - how do you find time for a  5 hour outdoor ride?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 24, 2017, 08:47:57 am
LAst week was rubbish, so 9.5 mile run yesterday and outdoor ride today. Biggest issue is time - how do you find time for a  5 hour outdoor ride?

Yesterday I was on the road at 6:45.   I was showered and ready for lunch with the family by 12.

It helps that A & J parkrun on a Saturday so everything works quite well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 24, 2017, 01:42:28 pm
Ah. I had a job to do at 7.45 this morning, so have been out for just over 2 hours starting at 11:00. Bit wild and woolly and wet, but nice to be out after the last couple of weeks. Plus it felt like cycles the wrong way around the calm at the center of a depression!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 24, 2017, 03:46:18 pm
53.6km this morning and a 10km walk.  Means only 444.4 km for the Rapha challenge.  Nothing tomorrow and then 80 on boxing day followed by commuting on wed and Friday with a quick ride on Thursday before the office should leave me with about 200 to do on saturday and Sunday combined.  Probably 2 x 100 to have time with my wife.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 24, 2017, 04:55:49 pm
Your ride this morning looked pretty good Chris. Not a shabby pace at all.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 24, 2017, 06:21:42 pm
Thanks Mike.  i was quite pleased with it.  HR was reasonably low.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 24, 2017, 07:27:29 pm
Another good session with Sufferfest today, this was only going to be a replacement for road rides until my broken collarbone is back up to full strength but I may not go back to TrainerRoad until my free 10 weeks of Sufferfest run out.

I did a 2x20' which I have never done before, for long Intervals i usually do 4x15' and 5x10' TR sessions at the weekend.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on December 28, 2017, 11:10:19 pm
Just completed TrainerRoad, Ericsson. feels good to be back at it after some time away - even held with my previous FTP, though it was tough & i’ll Have to drop it for more challenging sessions...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: furness on December 29, 2017, 07:04:22 pm
First FTP test on a Watt bike at the gym.  223W @ 69 kg.  I've not done much riding recently, so I'm hoping that with some training I can get this up over 250W (and lose 2 or 3 kg of fat) by Easter whilst also increasing my distance (hoping for a 300 in March). 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 01, 2018, 03:03:47 pm
I was planning to do a proper FTP test today, using the P1 pedals I picked up yesterday (almost new, eBay purchase but local to me). But yesterday was Sunday, so I missed the bike shops (I need road shoes now), and the LBSs that I would use are closed today. It seems that Sports Direct sells road bike shoes, but the only sort they have in stock is some horrible plastic Muddy Fox shoe that I wouldn't want to wear.
I can get shoes tomorrow morning, but I won't be able to ride until Wednesday morning. Most frustrating...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 01, 2018, 03:20:35 pm
It will be interesting to see how it compares with virtual power when you get them.

I finished Sweet Spot Base Mid Volume I yesterday, with only a few missed workouts, I did train on 24th and 26th to make that happen. So onto Mid Volume II starting tomorrow with the 8m test.

235W - 240W range anticipated for FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on January 01, 2018, 04:16:05 pm
I've switched to low volume - mid-volume didn't really give me enough recovery time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Veloman on January 01, 2018, 04:50:18 pm
I was planning to do a proper FTP test today, using the P1 pedals I picked up yesterday (almost new, eBay purchase but local to me). But yesterday was Sunday, so I missed the bike shops (I need road shoes now), and the LBSs that I would use are closed today. It seems that Sports Direct sells road bike shoes, but the only sort they have in stock is some horrible plastic Muddy Fox shoe that I wouldn't want to wear.
I can get shoes tomorrow morning, but I won't be able to ride until Wednesday morning. Most frustrating...

Do you have a turbo trainer?

I thought FTP test was best done off the road to avoid any other variables.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 01, 2018, 04:55:36 pm
I was planning to do a proper FTP test today, using the P1 pedals I picked up yesterday (almost new, eBay purchase but local to me). But yesterday was Sunday, so I missed the bike shops (I need road shoes now), and the LBSs that I would use are closed today. It seems that Sports Direct sells road bike shoes, but the only sort they have in stock is some horrible plastic Muddy Fox shoe that I wouldn't want to wear.
I can get shoes tomorrow morning, but I won't be able to ride until Wednesday morning. Most frustrating...

Do you have a turbo trainer?

I thought FTP test was best done off the road to avoid any other variables.
Yes, I've got a turbo - I've been using "Virtual Power" with Trainer Road since September. But since I got the puncture on the turbo a few weeks ago I've been wondering how reliably I can recreate the settings taking the bike on and off the trainer. The power meter should sort that out, and also mean I can ride with power on the road as well...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TigaSefi on January 02, 2018, 06:49:14 am
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 02, 2018, 09:41:16 am
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?
Sounds like the turbo is on a low resistance setting (mine has 10 settings) and the bike is in a huge gear.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on January 02, 2018, 10:20:16 am
..or using trainerroad with rollers
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 02, 2018, 10:40:20 am
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?

Erg mode on a smart trainer will do that. The speed of the flywheel is determined by gear and cadence and not by power. Hence apparently fast rides if you select a high gear.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 02, 2018, 08:50:46 pm
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/8458911-8-minute-ftp-test

237W +3W in just under 3 weeks over Christmas period.

Max HR 193.  :sick:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 02, 2018, 09:48:06 pm
Ouch! Still, +3W in 3 weeks is good going. :)

I installed my P1 pedals, mounted the cleats on my new shoes, but I can't click into the pedals. I've not used road pedals before - is there a trick, or are the cleats (Look alike) and the pedals not matched (I think it's the latter)?
This palaver will definitely mean I start my next plan a whole week later (and after 2 weeks off the bike) :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 02, 2018, 09:53:50 pm
P1 pedals need powertap cleats.

https://www.evanscycles.com/powertap-p1-pedal-cleats-red-6-degree-float-EV312946?esvt=54882-GOUKE4301806&esvq=&esvadt=999999-0-1220062-1&esvcrea=189742348270&esvplace=&esvd=c&esvtg=pla-337835685055&esvo=EV312946-NA-RED&esvaid=50080&gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ151R_Us0537t0FLykjhC3CmlcncgygRc6tNCUhYqg1G5FYXvfSDjONhoCUcQQAvD_BwE
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 03, 2018, 09:48:04 am
P1 pedals need powertap cleats.
I thought so. I messaged the seller and he mixed up the cleats - has a set of Powertaps he will swap for the ones he gave me.
According to DC Rainmaker, Look Keo cleats work with P1s until they are worn, and then they pop out. these aren't worn, but they look different, maybe they are a different sort of Look cleat. You can see the different cleats for Vector  3, Assioma and P1 here: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/09/power-meter-pedal-shootout-vector-3-vs-powertap-p1-vs-assioma.html
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on January 03, 2018, 02:01:56 pm
P1 pedals need powertap cleats.
I thought so. I messaged the seller and he mixed up the cleats - has a set of Powertaps he will swap for the ones he gave me.
According to DC Rainmaker, Look Keo cleats work with P1s until they are worn, and then they pop out. these aren't worn, but they look different, maybe they are a different sort of Look cleat. You can see the different cleats for Vector  3, Assioma and P1 here: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/09/power-meter-pedal-shootout-vector-3-vs-powertap-p1-vs-assioma.html

I didn't buy any in the end, but when I chatted to Matt at Cycle Power Meters he said that P1s use Wellgo cleats.   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 04, 2018, 09:15:04 am
I met up with the vendor and swapped the cleats for the powertap ones.  They are a bit battered, but they work. :) The cleats he originally gave me were slightly longer than the P1 ones - I've no idea what they came off.
At some point I'll have to get some more, but I can ride my bike with power now. :) I'll be back on here in a few days bemoaning my lack of power! ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on January 04, 2018, 01:56:40 pm
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?

Erg mode on a smart trainer will do that. The speed of the flywheel is determined by gear and cadence and not by power. Hence apparently fast rides if you select a high gear.

Really? I'll give that a go tonight, currently using Zwift on a Tacx Neo. I thought Zwift took your power reading, converted it to watts per kilo and calculated your speed off the back of this?

Anyways, can recommend Zwift and a Tacx Neo if people are looking for a good (for indoors) cycling experience as you can get. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 04, 2018, 02:06:30 pm
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?

Erg mode on a smart trainer will do that. The speed of the flywheel is determined by gear and cadence and not by power. Hence apparently fast rides if you select a high gear.

Really? I'll give that a go tonight, currently using Zwift on a Tacx Neo. I thought Zwift took your power reading, converted it to watts per kilo and calculated your speed off the back of this?

Anyways, can recommend Zwift and a Tacx Neo if people are looking for a good (for indoors) cycling experience as you can get. :thumbsup:

Indeed I believe that Zwift does convert power to speed, so this won't work for you, sadly.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 04, 2018, 03:42:47 pm
Here's one that will work on Zwift. Use a basic turbo trainer with virtual power, and fit two magnets to your rear wheel.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 16, 2018, 09:11:03 am
I got new cleats anyway. First ride this year, first ride on new pedals, first post-flu ride. I just did a 30 minute version of Carson, and it was very doable.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/9638807-carson-5
I wonder whether the power reported by the pedals is a bit higher than that reported by the back wheel - I couldn't do 75W at a sensible cadence (even in my lowest possible gear), and 175W was not especially hard work. What I did notice was that my power dropped when I was pulling upwards on the pedals, even when maintaining the same cadence and resistance - that felt weird.
I'll do a 45 minute one on Thursday, and then do a new FTP test on the weekend...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on January 16, 2018, 09:16:14 am
If you haven't done a new FTP test on your pedals then I suspect you are seeing the difference between what lost through the drive train to the rear wheel (i.e. you pedals will be a higher power reading)... by how much though?  Accuracy between measuring devices is a moot point for me, as it's all relative to a measured point in time (FTP value), its consistency that's important, so there will be a difference between your new pedals and the old power meter you had... key thing is to get the FTP on the new setup, anything else is just guessing I expect :)


ETA: Or get a session with both attached to the bike and see what if any the offset is and then derive the different FTP from that as an interim.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 16, 2018, 09:24:17 am
As well as the drivetrain, there's also the issue of the tyre on the drum (it's a cheapo wheel-on trainer). Guessing isn't a problem for me right now as I finished my previous plan before Christmas, and I'll be starting a new one next week with a new FTP test. I guess I could hook the pedals to my headunit and my speed/cadence sensor to Trainer Road for "Virtual Power", and then compare the output at the end, but I'm not sure there's any benefit in working out the delta.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 16, 2018, 11:16:00 pm
Mills... 100% for first 3 reps then 102% for the remaining 6. ow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on January 18, 2018, 06:52:46 pm
Ebbetts. A singularly unpleasant experience. Needed a couple of oxygen stops in the second interval, backed it off to 90% for the third interval, but couldn't keep going at all for the fourth.

I'm behind on sleep, and my RHR is up; underlying stress is never helpful.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 18, 2018, 07:34:38 pm
Sounds like what you need is more rest.

I’m about to hit Jepson. I’m not sure I’ll make it to the end of this block without needing an extra rest week. Just about hanging in.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: furness on January 18, 2018, 09:26:12 pm
First FTP test on a Watt bike at the gym.  223W @ 69 kg.  I've not done much riding recently, so I'm hoping that with some training I can get this up over 250W (and lose 2 or 3 kg of fat) by Easter whilst also increasing my distance (hoping for a 300 in March).

Things haven't gotten off to a great start - been ill with a heavy cold for past week so no training.  Do any of you have any advice about what to do when I restart - should I count this as my recovery week and begin another 4 week block or do I do one more week of training and then recover as per original plan (that will mean 2 weeks off in 4)?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 18, 2018, 11:39:46 pm
First FTP test on a Watt bike at the gym.  223W @ 69 kg.  I've not done much riding recently, so I'm hoping that with some training I can get this up over 250W (and lose 2 or 3 kg of fat) by Easter whilst also increasing my distance (hoping for a 300 in March).

Things haven't gotten off to a great start - been ill with a heavy cold for past week so no training.  Do any of you have any advice about what to do when I restart - should I count this as my recovery week and begin another 4 week block or do I do one more week of training and then recover as per original plan (that will mean 2 weeks off in 4)?

General advice here: http://blog.trainerroad.com/how-to-adjust-my-training-plan-following-time-off/

I had longer off due to a cough lasting for weeks after my last cold. I did some easy stuff to ease back in, then some intensity stuff to kick start things a bit, then went into Sweet Spot Base Mid Volume I from the start.

You will have lost some fitness but in a week it's not a huge loss.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 19, 2018, 12:08:45 pm
After my flu, I did 1 30 minute "ease in" ride, and then I figured I'd do an FTP test and see how it goes. I set it to 205 because I figured the pedals are reading higher than the back wheel, and I was 190 before.
I get to 15 minutes, and I realise that I'd been following the chart to get an FTP of 205, but I'd been spinning at 95 rpm, and I'm always faster around 85-90, so I changed up and did 5 minutes at a higher power.  Gave me an FTP of 207, but I think if I'd gone for it from the start I could have done 212. I think I'll do another FTP test on Tuesday.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/9877346-20-minute-ftp-test
I coughed a fair amount afterwards, but not during the ride. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: furness on January 19, 2018, 05:33:48 pm
Thanks, that advice is useful.  I've continued to do my short commute (at a very gentle pace), mainly because of the hassle of getting to work any other way.  I've been feeling better generally the last couple of days but do have an occasional lingering cough, but I've been able to push on a bit today on the ride home without any ill effects.  I think I'll try 2x20 tempo on Sunday rather than a long ride and then get back to it properly next week if all goes well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 21, 2018, 11:27:11 pm
Did rowing on the water in the morning so did 1h instead of 1h30 last night, and picked Prater.  This workout has found me out in the past when I've set my FTP a bit too high. Not this time.

Then tonight did the planned workout, Juneau - 1. This was also on target and was the highest 2h power I've achieved in more than 18 months.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 22, 2018, 12:23:43 pm
Well I’m feeling that the day. Three flights of stairs at work were plenty.  :hand:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 23, 2018, 09:31:32 am
That's more like what an FTP test should feel like! :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10269695-20-minute-ftp-test
222W FTP.  :thumbsup:
I gained 15 watts by just pacing it better. I worked so much harder, and my lungs are still feeling it now (2 hours on). As with all these things, I didn't blow up, so I feel like I could have gone a tiny bit harder, but realistically probably only a watt or 2. Just to show how hard it was (and how the pedals measure different to Virtual Power), I set power records at 1,2,5,10,20, and 30 minutes!
Sets me up nicely for Sustained Power Build.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 25, 2018, 10:13:39 am
I did Carpathian Peak today, and I found it really hard to ride at the prescribed power on the up and down slopes. It was much easier to be smooth with Virtual Power than it is with the P1s. I have smoothing set to 2 seconds - should I set it at 3 (or even 5)?:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10477043-carpathian-peak
I also needed to finish early, so I cut down the second period of rest - I didn't feel like the whole rest period was necessary.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 25, 2018, 10:51:34 am
How do you cut down a period in TrainerRoad, out of interest?

P1s are likely to give a much noisier signal than you will get from virtual power so adding some smoothing may help. Virtual power is based on speed, and small scale variations in power are probably artificially smoothed by this.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 25, 2018, 12:47:35 pm
I didn't do it officially (ideally I would have fast-forwarded it but you can't do it in the app - I asked Support in the summer). I have no doubt that you could do it through the workout creator (might do it next Thursday), but today I just knew that the set was intervals of 1 minute at 210W, and then ramping up to 232W and back over 2 minutes. I figured I could do 1 minute at ~240W and 1 minute at ~210W and start the set 4 minutes early, then I could get approx the same workload and cut it short at the end. You can see this in the workout graph.
I guess the flywheel effect of the turbo and the rear wheel smooth the speed changes in Virtual Power. The P1s are really cool though - it's neat to be able to see the actual power (and on my headunit to be able to see right and left split).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on January 28, 2018, 06:26:29 pm
Looks like TR is trialling a replacement for 8/20min FTP tests based on a 1 min ramp.  They are encouraging testers through their FB TR beta page

https://www.facebook.com/groups/147776349143575/permalink/150467508874459/

Ramp Test X is the name of the workout on TR.. I might give it a go later in the week...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 29, 2018, 09:09:26 am
That looks like it would be good with a smart trainer, but quite hard to do using gears. I quite like the 20 minute test (I'm not sure what that says about me!).

I did Mount Goode yesterday - was OK though my ITB was a bit tight, so I stopped after the first interval to stretch.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10809108-mount-goode

It's kinda nice just holding the watts for 15 minutes... :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 29, 2018, 10:47:37 am
Ramp tests to failure are tough at the end.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 30, 2018, 09:21:31 am
Cold in the garage this morning. 3x7 1 minute intervals at VO2 max was surprisingly doable. Though looking at the power zones, it seems I spent far more time anaerobic than VO2 max.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10991005-bashful-1

Ramp tests can be brutal if you have the mental fortitude to hurt yourself...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 30, 2018, 10:55:24 am
I've done them 3 or 4 times with a gas exchange mask on.

Not fun, not fun at all.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 01, 2018, 10:26:46 am
Fang Mountain today (-1 because of time pressure - same intervals but with less rest).
I'm really bad at these ramp things.  I'm guessing they are great with an erg trainer, but with a basic mag turbo trainer and gears they are really hard (even with power smoothing set to 3 seconds). Look at how much noise there is on this chart!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11198550-fang-mountain-1
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 01, 2018, 11:14:36 am
That looks like a good effort. Have you looked at some of the other attempts e.g.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10421795-fang-mountain-1
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 01, 2018, 12:50:42 pm
Good point - others with non erg trainers put up similarly noisy numbers.
I was also wondering if it actually made things a little easier - the fluctuations result in micro breaks of a second or 2 that might help recovery and reduce the impact of the workout. Either that or my legs were just really good this morning. If my workouts continue to be "surprisingly doable" then maybe I need to up the intensity a few percent (I did 102% for the second set, and 101% for the 3rd and 4th).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 01, 2018, 02:53:13 pm
Had a load of 'don't want to do this any more' moments last couple of weeks.   Managing the plan physically but having a mental block.   I've not skipped any sessions and delivered them all to plan but finding it hard.

Will push on for another 10 days and then I have a few days off at half term.   Hopefully the motivation will come back.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 01, 2018, 02:57:32 pm
You could be do a recovery week. Mine is next week, I can't wait.  ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 01, 2018, 04:58:04 pm
What's your ratio of work weeks to rest weeks at the moment? IIRC, you do epic miles including your commute, so maybe your idea of a rest week is different to mine though!
On the TR plans, Base has got 5 work weeks and then a rest week, but Build only has 3 work weeks and a rest week (x2).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on February 01, 2018, 07:22:37 pm
I've skipped todays Donner as I've a 200 on saturday and I know I will feel pretty dead after it given this week already, compared to feeling very dead if I had done today's session... don't think I'm quite ready for 900ish TSS yet, though skipping it still makes it a 800ish week  :facepalm:

Having Mondays off at the moment has put a bit of a spanner in the works as I'm going out on the bike rather than sitting at home so there's a bit more load than expected...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 01, 2018, 07:54:39 pm
Last week was an easier week. Road miles were about the same but turbo work was down by about 90 mins.   I did over 1000 miles in Jan which is up on last year.  I’m in a pretty decent place I feel but the problem has become mental.   I’ll drop my coach a line tomorrow as I haven’t seen next weeks plan yet.

We have a short family break at half term which will be bikeless so so something to look forward to.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 03, 2018, 07:49:24 pm
So nearing the end of the sweet spot base II plan.

I missed out Leconte last weekend as I had rowing training instead. This week was Mary Austin which appears to be at least as hard. It hurt, and my legs are still aching hours later but I completed it. According to the workout text it's one of the toughest in the TR catalogue.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11422443-mary-austin

Tomorrow's the last workout before the recovery week. Based on how I am right now, it is going to be tough.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 05, 2018, 09:22:49 am
Mary Austin is a real PITA. The second set of interval steps in each set seems to go on forever.
I helped my wife with stuff in school before doing https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11535377-kaweah When I checked my pedometer, I realised I had done 8,500 steps before the ride, which is not ideal preparation!
The standing drills and the quadrant drills were fine, but getting aero was hard second time around and my back is tighter than it would normally be (might have something to do with walking and decorating as well). I've got 1 more work week before my rest week, and while I feel OK, I'm not looking forward to Avalanche Spire (more ramped over-unders) on Thursday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 05, 2018, 10:26:08 am
I had the day off yesterday. I might do sundays workout tomorrow or just skip it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 05, 2018, 12:00:34 pm
Just under 5hrs on the road in the rain on Sunday.   Felt pretty perky so it's amazing what a bit of sleep does for you.    Took Sunday off and went walking for 2hrs with junior.

This week's plan has been dialed back and looks quite sensible.   Whilst I didn't feel too bad physically there were early signs of pushing a bit too hard.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 06, 2018, 09:42:40 am
Absolutely freezing (-4 at 7:30, dunno what it was at 6). Did first set of intervals, but during rest break I could feel my ITB tightening up and then in first of the next set, my knee was making a clicking noise and hurting.  Bad tracking is not good for power, so I shut it down and stretched instead - while my ITB is definitely tight, it's not responding to foam rollering much - I think it's my back that's the root of all this.  :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11682495-bashful-2

The business park on which I work has yoga on Friday lunchtimes, so I'm going to give that a go (starting next week as I'm off this Friday).  Only 2 more high power workouts until the rest week, so I'll stretch and roller beforehand and see how those go...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on February 06, 2018, 09:54:38 am
Absolutely freezing (-4 at 7:30, dunno what it was at 6). Did first set of intervals, but during rest break I could feel my ITB tightening up and then in first of the next set, my knee was making a clicking noise and hurting.  Bad tracking is not good for power, so I shut it down and stretched instead - while my ITB is definitely tight, it's not responding to foam rollering much - I think it's my back that's the root of all this.  :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11682495-bashful-2

The business park on which I work has yoga on Friday lunchtimes, so I'm going to give that a go (starting next week as I'm off this Friday).  Only 2 more high power workouts until the rest week, so I'll stretch and roller beforehand and see how those go...

Bit off topic but the advice on foam rollering now seems to be varying.   My physio still says to roller the ITB, but I have seen elsewhere that this is no longer recommended.   One of my clubmates specializes in physio for recovery and is anti rollering the ITB.   If it helps I suffer with lower back, hip and ITB pain.   What has helped has been hip mobility exercises and, for want of a better description, the spiky ball in the buttock pressure work.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 06, 2018, 10:00:42 am
Absolutely freezing (-4 at 7:30, dunno what it was at 6). Did first set of intervals, but during rest break I could feel my ITB tightening up and then in first of the next set, my knee was making a clicking noise and hurting.  Bad tracking is not good for power, so I shut it down and stretched instead - while my ITB is definitely tight, it's not responding to foam rollering much - I think it's my back that's the root of all this.  :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11682495-bashful-2

The business park on which I work has yoga on Friday lunchtimes, so I'm going to give that a go (starting next week as I'm off this Friday).  Only 2 more high power workouts until the rest week, so I'll stretch and roller beforehand and see how those go...
Bit off topic but the advice on foam rollering now seems to be varying.   My physio still says to roller the ITB, but I have seen elsewhere that this is no longer recommended.   One of my clubmates specializes in physio for recovery and is anti rollering the ITB.   If it helps I suffer with lower back, hip and ITB pain.   What has helped has been hip mobility exercises and, for want of a better description, the spiky ball in the buttock pressure work.
The last time I went to physio they said to roller the ITB. My right knee is well dodgy (ACL tear, multiple meniscus and MCL sprains, bad tracking), and I can fix the symptoms by working resolutely on my VMO, but it probably all stems from my lower back. I probably just need to do more core work. I should probably also get refitted onto this bike (changed saddle, pedals and shoes since my fit last year). 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on February 10, 2018, 01:47:26 pm
i've noticed that trainerroad started to send the screenshots of workouts as pictures, when uploading them to strava. i'm on the last few days of base training, still to decide which build phase to go for.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on February 10, 2018, 02:40:54 pm
Yes that was announced as coming on their Beta group a few days ago.

I'm day 3 of not going on teh turbo, I just can not get the motivation to do so...  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 10, 2018, 03:40:37 pm
I might try general build.

This week was supposed to be the recovery week at the end of base II, but lurgy.

Two hour-long on the water rowing sessions today and tomorrow to keep me working anyway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 11, 2018, 08:47:41 pm
I'm 3 weeks into the Sustained Power Build. The Saturday ride (I'm on the low volume plan) contains long threshold intervals, which is really good for me - I guess it depends on what you want to do this year.
Today's was brutal. Friday I had a 12,000 step day helping my wife run a school festival, yesterday was a no effort day, and today I did 6,000 steps before my ride. The first 2 intervals were OK, but the third was hard, and from 10-18 minutes I was struggling with my ITB/hamstring tightness, but I just gutted it out and survived (and the last 2 minutes were OK).
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/12100854-galena-1
This week is a "rest" week. I'm not sure how much of the scheduled riding I'll do - I find the low effort ones really boring and hard to motivate myself for.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 13, 2018, 08:49:17 am
I did my scheduled ride: https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/12225314-pettit
It was boring and cold, and my right knee was sore by the end.  I'm gonna skip Thursday's ride, and maybe do an FTP test on the weekend ready for the next set of work weeks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 17, 2018, 04:40:56 pm
I skipped the Thursday workout (though I did some yoga Friday). Today I tried the new Ramp Test X.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/13643874-ramp-test-x
It's not automated yet (I think it's still a bit experimental), but a TR employee commented saying they make my FTP 234. That's a good jump - I'll try to replicate that on Tuesday morning. :)
Because it was short, I also did Charybdis 30.  That was brutal (especially after ramping up to 300W).
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/13652879-charybdis-30

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on February 17, 2018, 08:14:09 pm
i've done a ramp test too, was committed to reach 20min, so did just that and my legs gave out (probably need to set the target higher next time). if the best minute multiplier is .77 it seems too high. i'm about to start a build phase and it begins with a 2x8 test - oh joy!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 18, 2018, 04:21:32 pm
They changed it to 0.76% of the highest power you can maintain for a whole minute.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on February 18, 2018, 06:51:37 pm
They changed it to 0.76% of the highest power you can maintain for a whole minute.

i'd prefer 0.73 as this would mean i can still complete tougher intervals without the need to backpedal
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 20, 2018, 09:03:06 am
My FTP test today came out lower than Ramp Test X (229 as opposed to 234), but I was feeling rubbish today (bad sleep, empty legs, ate during the warmup and then felt sick!). I couldn't spin as well either (ended up ina 90 rpm cadence rather than 95-100).  Given the different conditions of the 2 tests, I'll stick with 234 and see how hard the workouts are!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/14609218-20-minute-ftp-test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on February 20, 2018, 07:50:49 pm
i've also just done a solid 8min ftp test and came to a conclusion that for the future ramp tests (which i much prefer) i need to use a 0.72 coefficient (or 0.73 if i feel 100% fit).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 20, 2018, 07:55:05 pm
I'm going to do it once I've let the fruit I ate go down a bit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 20, 2018, 08:21:17 pm
I'm somewhat confused as to how they got to 234, seeing as 0.76*302 = 229.5. That's only just over what I got for my 20 minute test. Maybe they used 0.77, or maybe they took into account my ability to do a bit of the next interval (though I definitely couldn't have completed it at 315).
Good luck Simon!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 20, 2018, 08:27:17 pm
They started with 0.77 and changed it to 0.76 but the algorithm is a little more complex, apparently.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 20, 2018, 09:22:52 pm
326W => ftp 248 (to nearest watt)

About where I’d expect to be.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 21, 2018, 11:38:47 am
326W => ftp 248 (to nearest watt)

About where I’d expect to be.

TrainerRoad have commented and also say FTP = 248.

Target: raising this by 20W by summer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 21, 2018, 01:53:36 pm
326W => ftp 248 (to nearest watt)

About where I’d expect to be.

TrainerRoad have commented and also say FTP = 248.

Target: raising this by 20W by summer.
How does 248 compare to last year? What plan(s) are you doing? And have you signed up for their Beta service showing you old data? I signed up, but nothing's changed on my account yet.

I'm starting the second block of sustained power build, and then I guess I'll do the 40k TT specialist one. That only takes me to June though, so I should be able to get another build in if I feel up to it. I'd like to get up to (or beyond if poss) 260 or so by the end of the summer. That's another 26 Watts - I've basically gone up 10W every month or so after using TR (I only started in September), but I'm assuming it's going to start levelling off soon!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 21, 2018, 03:55:43 pm
326W => ftp 248 (to nearest watt)

About where I’d expect to be.

TrainerRoad have commented and also say FTP = 248.

Target: raising this by 20W by summer.
How does 248 compare to last year? What plan(s) are you doing? And have you signed up for their Beta service showing you old data? I signed up, but nothing's changed on my account yet.

I'm starting the second block of sustained power build, and then I guess I'll do the 40k TT specialist one. That only takes me to June though, so I should be able to get another build in if I feel up to it. I'd like to get up to (or beyond if poss) 260 or so by the end of the summer. That's another 26 Watts - I've basically gone up 10W every month or so after using TR (I only started in September), but I'm assuming it's going to start levelling off soon!

So last year I was ahead based on KickR power numbers (but I estimate it was over reading by around 15W). I we assume Neo is spot on, I'm within 3W of a year ago. However I had a problem with my wisdom tooth in February last year which kept me from training for a month, and I retested at 248W in March. So given that hasn't happened this time around, I think I will come out ahead.

I'm on General Build Mid Volume I. However tonight's workout will be replaced by a rowing water session.

My best ever 8 minute test scored 276W. Call that 260W. I will be happy with getting back to 260W, anything higher will be a bonus.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 22, 2018, 12:30:49 pm
I did this one this morning - it didn't feel mega hard, so I'm pretty happy with that. :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/15404323-washington
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on February 22, 2018, 12:36:15 pm
I did this one this morning - it didn't feel mega hard, so I'm pretty happy with that. :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/15404323-washington

Yep, looks like you nailed that.

I am coming down with something. Bah.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 22, 2018, 05:17:04 pm
Yep, looks like you nailed that.

I am coming down with something. Bah.
Thanks. :)

It's the most frustrating thing in the world when your training is going well and then you get a cold and you can't push it. :( At least you'll stay ahead of your February from last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 24, 2018, 08:26:40 pm
That was hard. One of those where there is no major pain point, it's just hard, and it stays like that for ages.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/16265450-fish-2
I reckon I could have done another minute on the end of each interval, but it would have taken some real focus and pain!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on February 24, 2018, 11:45:45 pm
ooo new career view is now available on TR which seems interesting  :thumbsup:

The bit I like the best is now it has all your ride data from TP & Strava you can set up 'seasons' to compare against under 'personal-records' (i.e. pre-LEL and post LEL for example).

It then has a season match facility to compare where you are now with the seasons you set up.  I quite like that (mostly because it tells me I am 30+ watts better than I was this time last year lol)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 27, 2018, 09:15:39 am
I signed up for the Beta, but my Career page hasn't changed yet.
This morning was soooo cold. I did Dade (should have been Dade +1, but I only have 1 hour) and I only had the fan on for the 2nd and 3rd set of intervals.  I need to work out how to block the vents in my shoes - my feet were freezing! The workout was solid though - the +1 version has 2.5 minute intervals at 120%, but the 1 hour version has 2 minute intervals, 6 at 120% and 3 at 140%, and I could hit the numbers and hang on OK. It feels like I'm getting fitter and more sustained ability to really hammer. If I were going to do it again, I might put it up to 101%!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/17267327-dade
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on February 27, 2018, 10:00:12 am
I signed up for the Beta, but my Career page hasn't changed yet.
This morning was soooo cold. I did Dade (should have been Dade +1, but I only have 1 hour) and I only had the fan on for the 2nd and 3rd set of intervals.  I need to work out how to block the vents in my shoes - my feet were freezing! The workout was solid though - the +1 version has 2.5 minute intervals at 120%, but the 1 hour version has 2 minute intervals, 6 at 120% and 3 at 140%, and I could hit the numbers and hang on OK. It feels like I'm getting fitter and more sustained ability to really hammer. If I were going to do it again, I might put it up to 101%!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/17267327-dade

If I go to https://www.trainerroad.com/career-new/duncanm23 I can see the new version of your profile (it seems stuck at syncing 14 ot 142 rides)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on February 27, 2018, 10:45:47 am
I signed up for the Beta, but my Career page hasn't changed yet.
This morning was soooo cold. I did Dade (should have been Dade +1, but I only have 1 hour) and I only had the fan on for the 2nd and 3rd set of intervals.  I need to work out how to block the vents in my shoes - my feet were freezing! The workout was solid though - the +1 version has 2.5 minute intervals at 120%, but the 1 hour version has 2 minute intervals, 6 at 120% and 3 at 140%, and I could hit the numbers and hang on OK. It feels like I'm getting fitter and more sustained ability to really hammer. If I were going to do it again, I might put it up to 101%!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/17267327-dade

If I go to https://www.trainerroad.com/career-new/duncanm23 I can see the new version of your profile (it seems stuck at syncing 14 ot 142 rides)
Strange - that just bounces me to here: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on February 27, 2018, 10:53:20 am
Where as if I click that, I get bounced to the new version.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 01, 2018, 12:25:00 pm
That's really strange.

I'm supposed to be doing Mt Hale today, but I stayed in bed this morning! I could do it now, but I'm just too cold to go into the garage in -3.
Tomorrow morning is going to be -2, so maybe that's a goer - would have to be the 1 hour version though.

Is anyone else training in this weather?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 01, 2018, 01:07:37 pm
Just about, it was 5 deg in my pain cave last night, so fan didn't go on until the second interval.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 01, 2018, 01:10:26 pm
My wrist had two steroid injections yesterday, one to try to deal with a ganglion cyst, the other into the area around the tfcc. I asked about what I could do afterwards - rowing is obviously out, but also I'm not allowed to even do turbo.

Yet more disruption to my training.

Should be back on it after the weekend, and at least my lurgy from last week is now gone. I did a 5K test at the rowing club on Tuesday and that was horrible, managed 19:45 which I wasn't too happy with. My breathing felt really bad during the middle. Didn't warm up well enough due to issues with getting a new HR strap working as well.

At least I've set a time that I should be able to beat.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 01, 2018, 01:16:27 pm
I suspect the person did not understand what a turbo is!

I would put no limitations on what you can do after a steroid into your wrist.  It will hurt as I have just stuck a big needle into you.  Will using it damage you - NO.

certainly on the turbo if you are not putting your weight on your hands what harm can you do?  So either TT position on turbo or do aerobic sub FTP work with your arms crossed and no weight on the bars.

Alternatively only use the good hand on the bars.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 01, 2018, 03:12:47 pm
Thanks Chris.

I don't have aero bars on my turbo bike but I could sit up and do some light stuff. Up to a point - brain will crawl out eventually.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 01, 2018, 10:48:03 pm
Just about, it was 5 deg in my pain cave last night, so fan didn't go on until the second interval.

Oh how I wish I’d paid extra for the fan with a remote control. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 01, 2018, 10:58:00 pm
there are remote control mains adapters which would do the job. i start my session with the base layer on and take it off during a warmup.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 01, 2018, 11:34:27 pm
Just about, it was 5 deg in my pain cave last night, so fan didn't go on until the second interval.

Oh how I wish I’d paid extra for the fan with a remote control.
Remote mains plug ftw. It's a Sonoff one but I've put a different firmware on to match my lights and other house stuff :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 02, 2018, 06:41:50 am
there are remote control mains adapters which would do the job. i start my session with the base layer on and take it off during a warmup.

Yeah, that’s what I do.   At the moment so I have to put it back on pretty quickly before cooling down.

The nearest plug point is quite a distance off and I need an extension cable.   Waiting for the days when I need the garage door open and the fan on full.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on March 02, 2018, 07:33:38 am
Just about, it was 5 deg in my pain cave last night, so fan didn't go on until the second interval.

Oh how I wish I’d paid extra for the fan with a remote control.

It made a big difference to my sessions, especially with the ability to tweak the direction of blow as well as the speed during the warm-up.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on March 02, 2018, 08:02:46 am
It has been a slow start to the ear for a number of reasons but finally feel i am back in a reasonable place.
I left my FTP at 230 which was way too high so this was the first workout where I have not dialled back on the percentage at all.  Few drops in power and a few times where I was out of the saddle to give the quads a rest but overall I am quite pleased.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/chrisbainbridge/rides-new/18170896-fang-mountain-1 (https://www.trainerroad.com/career/chrisbainbridge/rides-new/18170896-fang-mountain-1)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 02, 2018, 01:56:38 pm
I applied rule 5 and got on the trainer at lunchtime. I'm really going well at the moment - I wonder if I'm gonna get another FTP bump at the end of this block.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/18396244-mt-hale
I also found some cheap secondhand aero bars locally, so my "speciality" phase (due to start in 3 weeks) can be done on them. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on March 02, 2018, 05:34:52 pm
After 6 weeks completely off the bike and then a gradual build up after my off I regained the speed just not the endurance I guess. Only three short (3-4 miles) rides outside since Oct 8, to ensure I registered a time for the Gorilla Tour of Oundle Strava challenge. So far so good, only 19" behind the prologue winner.
Stage 1 results (http://www.nrtoone.com/strava/tourofoundle_results.php?stage=1)

This was mainly done using my 2 free months of Sufferfest. I will be switching from TrainerRoad to Sufferfest permanently now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 02, 2018, 07:38:28 pm
After 6 weeks completely off the bike and then a gradual build up after my off I regained the speed just not the endurance I guess. Only three short (3-4 miles) rides outside since Oct 8, to ensure I registered a time for the Gorilla Tour of Oundle Strava challenge. So far so good, only 19" behind the prologue winner.
Stage 1 results (http://www.nrtoone.com/strava/tourofoundle_results.php?stage=1)

This was mainly done using my 2 free months of Sufferfest. I will be switching from TrainerRoad to Sufferfest permanently now.

Is that on a PC or app ?  I have no ability to run it on a tablet/phone and I already have some of the videos which I use in TR, but if they had a PC app I might be tempted. VV were doing a free 60 days but I didn't take them up on it...

What was it about Sufferfest that has made you mind up out of interest?  I'd do similar with Xert if it wasn't for their dodgy app for their workouts - I really like the smart/dynamic approach to some of the workouts rather than a static prescription..

In other news, had to turn the fan on earlier tonight, wore my winter boots on the turbo, so fan was on before the start of the first interval on Kaiser  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on March 02, 2018, 07:55:46 pm
On a PC although it also works on an iPhone. The main reason for switching? Probably because although TR was good enough to use to prepare for TTs I think Sufferfest is much better for RR prep.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 04, 2018, 03:48:05 pm
That was a hard workout today. 3*18 minute intervals at 97% threshold, and only 3 minutes rest between.https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/19002099-mount-goode-2
Mostly it as a mental test, physically there wasn't any point at which my legs couldn't do it (though getting the cadence right was a bit tricky). 2 hours later, I feel completely whacked! I guess that makes it a legit workout.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 04, 2018, 08:11:54 pm
I did the TR ramp test yesterday, surprisingly nicer than expected compared with an 8 or 20min protocol, but the still haven't bolted on the warm down yet.

I was surprised how I just suddenly became unable to hold my 105 cadence and that was the end of the ramp.

It came out 45w or so higher than my last test so not sure I'll take that as my new FTP! Seems too big a gain but is broadly consistent with what Cert was telling me where I have put big efforts in on the road.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 04, 2018, 08:47:49 pm
Are you looking at the top of the ramp  *0.76?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 05, 2018, 08:05:29 am
Are you looking at the top of the ramp  *0.76?

You get a comment added to the workout (which helpfully isn't visible on the new version of the view but they still use the comment system as it sends an email to the user).

Quote
Thanks for helping out TrainerRoad by doing Ramp Test X! Based on the current formula, your FTP is 311.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/jiberjaber/rides-new/18692746

My previous FTP based on 8min protocol was 259W and whilst doing some VO2 stuff last week, I did experiment with adding a few % to the intensity.  I'm not sure I would have been able to complete the workouts if they had been based on 311W FTP!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 05, 2018, 12:57:23 pm
I got that sort of email/comment. Mine was within a few W of my 20 minute FTP test. Maybe it's worth trying to do an 8 minute (or 20 minute) FTP test with your power at the 311W level and see how well you do? It's a great result though - congrats. :)

The reason why I said 0.76 is because that's what it says they use on the Beta testers facebook page.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on March 05, 2018, 12:59:21 pm
My previous FTP based on 8min protocol was 259W and whilst doing some VO2 stuff last week, I did experiment with adding a few % to the intensity.  I'm not sure I would have been able to complete the workouts if they had been based on 311W FTP!

Quite a big jump.

I started on TR a couple a few weeks ago, Sweet Spot Base, and doing an initial ramp test the FTP was ~5% up on a 20min test I'd done the week prior. So far I've found the workouts doable using this higher FTP but hard work, so it appears calibrated correctly for me...

It's with mixed emotions that I "look forward" to seeing an FTP increase when next testing. Double edged sword innit!

I'm a cycling returnee, got back on the turbo in the Autumn after years off. Currently at 3.2 w/kg, aiming for 3.5 by late summer. If that happens, will take it from there: 3.75? I've not done measured training like this before so I don't yet know what's possible (nor my motivation to make it happen). A bit of discovery ahead.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 05, 2018, 01:05:32 pm
Amen to that!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on March 05, 2018, 01:09:05 pm
...also, already have low body fat, so no gains to be had from slimming down. Another double edged sword!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 05, 2018, 08:57:30 pm
Been ill and then steroid jab. Two weeks mostly off. So ramp test!

New ftp 246. 2W drop. Without rounding just 1.5W drop.

Back on it now hopefully. Wrist pain free on turbo woo!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 06, 2018, 06:51:22 am
Good to hear that your wrist is better, and only 1.5W down after 2 weeks off is probably good too. :)

It had been going really well recently, but today sucked. I just couldn't get my power up and then hold it - my lungs were OK but my legs weren't just doing it. My knee is a bit sore, so I couldn't just muscle it at 85rpm, so afterthe 4th interval I just gave it up and stretched a bit instead...
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/19562945-kaiser-1

This is the last week of work (before the rest week) of the Build phase. I'm travelling with work on Thursday, and I'll be knackered on Friday, so I think I'll do the Saturday workout as planned, and then do the one I should do Thursday Tuesday next week.  Then I'll take the rest of the week off (for "rest"). Then I'll move onto the 40k TT speciality plan (and I'm collecting some cheapass aero bars today too :) ).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 06, 2018, 12:29:30 pm
TrainerRoad said 243W in the comment.

Best minute was 324W. Multiply by 0.76 => 246.24W.

I know their actual formula has more tweaks than the basic 0.76. 243W is also fine and I'll probably go with this value.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 06, 2018, 01:17:31 pm
i am using 0.73 and it's pretty much spot on, except the vo2max intervals which i cannot complete until the end (so far)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 11, 2018, 09:09:33 am
After spending Thursday travelling, and Friday chilling, I was back on it yesterday. I couldn't spin fast enough to sustain the power in the first interval, so went up 1 gear and let my cadence settle around 90. Aside from that, it felt good. I've only got 1 hard workout to go in this plan and then next week I'll start a new one (can't decide between another Build, or doing the 40TT Speciality one).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/20835398-mount-goode-3
Last week's Mount Goode wiped me out for the rest of the day - this one I was fine afterwards. Maybe I'm getting fitter! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 13, 2018, 10:23:49 pm
Based on 0.76 I did this:

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides-new/21963791-huffaker

 :sick:

My legs gave up in the last interval. I did the rest on target. I felt a bit of hunger before I started which perhaps means I needed a bit more food earlier in the day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 13, 2018, 10:43:40 pm
I tried to pace an 8min FTP test at the 8min power from the ramp test result... the result of which was a predictable pain cave and really bad 2nd interval! Absolute dogs dinner, I couldn't get enough oxygen in from breathing...  :facepalm:
Interestingly, the Xert FTP app had me at 280W on the basis of that 1st interval.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/jiberjaber/rides-new/21819932-8-minute-ftp-test

3W improvement on last test so up to 262W from 259 but I suspect it would have been a better result if I had gone out at a lower pace for the first interval!...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 14, 2018, 02:14:31 pm
That sounds brutal - both of you.
I overdid an 8 minute FTP test a few months ago - it was soul destroying starting the second interval and realising you just ain't gonna be able to keep it up. You did pretty well, mine was about 2 minutes of on target and then off a 100W cliff!

I've given up on the idea of doing the last hard workout now (barely slept on Monday night so I slept in on Tuesday morning instead of getting up to train). I'm gonna do one of the recovery week rides tomorrow, and then a Ramp Test X on Sunday. I also talked to my friendly local bikefitter, who said that the cheapass aero bars I had were too short and straight and not adjustable enough, so I've ordered some Profile T4. I'll get set up on them when they arrive (hopefully before the first TT of the year in early April). I also need to keep an eye on my food - the last few weeks I've not been paying attention and I've regained the 1.5kg I lost! :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 19, 2018, 10:34:34 am
I did Ramp Test X yesterday. It went pretty well, and I completed the 332W step but couldn't do the 346 one: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/23622661-ramp-test-x
No-one from Trainer Road has commented, so I don't know what they would set my FTP to, but if we assume they are doing something around 0.76*332 that would put my FTP at 252W. That seems like a bit of a step from 234 4 weeks ago (and 222 8 weeks ago). All with the same pedals. If I am above 250 I'll be super chuffed.  I was at 171W (Virtual Power) back in September.
The 40k TT plan says I should do a 20 minute FTP test on Tuesday, so I will set it to 252 (or whatever TR suggest) and than try to hit that - that will be a reasonable measure of how well I can do at ~250W.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 19, 2018, 11:48:38 am
i did a ramp test yesterday too, 1min power was 5w higher than three weeks ago, so it's all going in the right direction and i've reached a milestone of 4.5w/kg

tr post comments on ramp tests during their working hours in the us, so sometime today or tomorrow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 19, 2018, 11:55:19 am
I did Ramp Test X yesterday. It went pretty well, and I completed the 332W step but couldn't do the 346 one: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/23622661-ramp-test-x
No-one from Trainer Road has commented, so I don't know what they would set my FTP to, but if we assume they are doing something around 0.76*332 that would put my FTP at 252W. That seems like a bit of a step from 234 4 weeks ago (and 222 8 weeks ago). All with the same pedals. If I am above 250 I'll be super chuffed.  I was at 171W (Virtual Power) back in September.
The 40k TT plan says I should do a 20 minute FTP test on Tuesday, so I will set it to 252 (or whatever TR suggest) and than try to hit that - that will be a reasonable measure of how well I can do at ~250W.

I think you should be using 343W (best 1-minute power which is from 19:30 to 20:30 in the workout).

So that would give 261W if they are still using 0.76. Note they went slightly lower in my case, I think there are tweaks and they may have reduced from 0.76.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 19, 2018, 11:55:38 am
I struggled the last few days. Too tired.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 19, 2018, 12:03:17 pm
I did Ramp Test X yesterday. It went pretty well, and I completed the 332W step but couldn't do the 346 one: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/23622661-ramp-test-x
No-one from Trainer Road has commented, so I don't know what they would set my FTP to, but if we assume they are doing something around 0.76*332 that would put my FTP at 252W. That seems like a bit of a step from 234 4 weeks ago (and 222 8 weeks ago). All with the same pedals. If I am above 250 I'll be super chuffed.  I was at 171W (Virtual Power) back in September.
The 40k TT plan says I should do a 20 minute FTP test on Tuesday, so I will set it to 252 (or whatever TR suggest) and than try to hit that - that will be a reasonable measure of how well I can do at ~250W.

I think you should be using 343W (best 1-minute power which is from 19:30 to 20:30 in the workout).

So that would give 261W if they are still using 0.76. Note they went slightly lower in my case, I think there are tweaks and they may have reduced from 0.76.
That would be insane. I'd be happy with anything over 250 - over 260 would make me feel like I overtested! Then again, I'm not sure I've managed to go so deep on previous tests, even after a few minutes spinning down when I went in the house to stretch I felt very sick! Plus my ribs hurt today (too much pulling on the bars)! I wonder if the ramp test doesn't work so well for dumb trainers, because it's hard to sit at the right level for each minute. I'll wait for the TR people to comment before I update my FTP.

Zigzag - 4.5W/kg is very impressive. While my power has gone up in the last couple of months my weight has too (almost 2kg). Even 262W would only give me 3.5W/kg.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 19, 2018, 03:55:21 pm
Comment with new FTP - 256W. :)
Pleased I went above 250, now I've got to back it up and do my next block properly at that power.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 19, 2018, 04:36:00 pm
They're not using 0.76, or they're doing something more complex.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 19, 2018, 05:23:15 pm
They're not using 0.76, or they're doing something more complex.
my evaluation came back with the result that matches a multiplier .75 - which is now pretty close to my "realistic" one of .72-73
i'll use their figure and see how much pain i can take during the next build block.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 19, 2018, 07:15:59 pm
I think they said that they use 0.76 as a multiplier on the last completed step, but they also give you credit if you get through part of the next one.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on March 19, 2018, 08:38:10 pm
I think they said that they use 0.76 as a multiplier on the last completed step, but they also give you credit if you get through part of the next one.

They've said max 1min power * 0.76, where max 1min power readable from the chart in the beta analysis software or in table form on the old software (I think).

But (as noted by others) the FTP number they told me is a bit lower than that indicating there's some other factor considered.

Also, I think you're right that the ramp test is not so well suited to dumb trainers as it is to ergs - my experience was it became a bit of a struggle (distraction) trying to find the right gears for a suitable cadence, and in the last 1min I ended up going way above the target for part of it. Perhaps they're normalising the max 1min power number in some way and hence the departure from a simple *0.76?

And kudos to zigzag for those numbers, sweet baby jesu.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 19, 2018, 09:23:42 pm


And kudos to zigzag for those numbers, sweet baby jesu.

thank you, lots of pain and suffering behind those numbers ("why am i doing this?.."); harsh winter helped with motivation in a way
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on March 20, 2018, 12:39:27 am
I’m finally back on it  :thumbsup: have avoided an ftp test and instead i’m sticking with a level I previously tested at (don’t have the drive to push that hard on a test yet). 

Working out ok so far, will possibly test next week though.... it’s all a bit unstructured, but helping the mojo  8)

Sunday https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/23669224#.WrBYiYPN1t8 (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/23669224#.WrBYiYPN1t8)
Followed by Carter on Monday, then something like Carillion planned for Tuesday
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 20, 2018, 09:03:18 am
20 minute FTP test today.  I wasn't really feeling it, and it was 6am. Also, I don't have my aero bars yet, so I couldn't do it in my aero position. First 10 minutes was hard, and it was hard to get the cadence and gearing just so. The 10-15minute period is usually tough for me, but I didn't feel like quitting, I just didn't have the focus necessary. The last 5 was OK, and I could have gone (a bit) longer if I needed.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/23913820

Calculated FTP was 248. I think I'll stick with the 256 - I don't feel as wrung out as after the ramp test, so I think that was actually a better number.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 20, 2018, 09:20:08 am
Been up and down for a while.   Fastest ever 200k 10 days ago and first back, but then wiped out for a few days.   The weather threw last weekend out but I did 90mins on the turbo on Saturday.

I've booked a medical for Thursday afternoon as it's been 5 years since the last one and I don't recall feeling this crap when I was deep into training this time last year.

I have my first TT of the year on Saturday.   It's just a 10 but it will be a test of fitness.   Besides my 10 PB is atrocious so hopefully I can still update it as it's on a fast course.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on March 20, 2018, 10:33:28 am
I'm in the midst of yet another cough/cold/something or other which whilst happening over a particularly miserable section of weather outside, I've been off the bike since last Wednesday and it's depressing watching my ramp rate go negative and feeling like all the gains over the last few weeks are being undone .... second bought of this lurgy in 2 weeks...  :'(  I'm even questioning being able to do an Arrow at this rate!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 22, 2018, 09:59:26 am
First proper ride with new FTP.  The plan calls for a 75 minute workout (4*9 intervals with 5 minute recoveries), but I only had an hour so I did a shorter version:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/24651780-budawang

262W is annoyingly in between on the gears - either it's 88rpm or 100, and my legs weren't feeling spinny today. I've got an 11-32 cassette and a compact chainset - I didn't ride anything that needs the lowest gear last year, so when I replace the cassette I might go 11-28. The recoveries were a bit too long (I was bored and HR of 100 with 2 minutes to go on the second one) - I contemplated just starting the effort a minute early and doing a 10 minute interval, but decided against.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 22, 2018, 11:43:30 am
It is usually a good idea to go as narrow as possible. I'm using 11-25 on the trainer. It doesn't make any difference in erg mode, but when using resistance mode for a 2x8m test, or on a normal turbo, going as narrow as you can is a good plan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 22, 2018, 01:29:11 pm
Narrow is good, but this is basically my only road bike. So while I'd go as narrow as possible for TT or for Turbo, I can't just use a straight through block and then survive on the club runs.
Everything points inexorably to a TT specific bike. Next year... :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 23, 2018, 08:54:34 pm
The discovery that my allergy to cats was actually an allergy to rats.

I think my breathing may have improved, since all the rats* are dead.

*Pets.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 25, 2018, 01:51:47 pm
Improved breathing is definitely a good thing. :)

My ride today was hard.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/25871597
Fueling and sleep were OK. Got interrupted at the end of the first interval and had to make the TV work for my daughter! Getting back into it was hard, and the middle onwards of the 3rd interval was a real struggle. My right knee has been sore for a couple of days - I need to stretch more...

I did a minute on the aero bars a few times - it's a bit harder to put out power and my belly breathing interferes with my legs slightly . I probably need to lift the saddle a little bit - I'm trying to arrange a new bike fit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 25, 2018, 07:21:21 pm
That looks like a proper tester.

I had no turbo time this weekend, as I had too much going on with rowing.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 27, 2018, 08:56:07 am
After a couple of weeks of brutal threshold work today was sweetspot.
I forgot how hard sweet pot is! Slept badly, felt crap on waking up, warmup was harder than it should have been and the wattage was either too fast at 97rpm or too slow at 82. Plus my shorts were chafing when I was in my aerobars. I think that lack of breakfast is really hurting me on the 6am rides now.
I bailed less than halfway through the second 20 minute interval. :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/26507177-eclipse-2
I've been sneezing loads today as well. Hope it's something to do with the rain and not a cold. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 27, 2018, 06:42:09 pm
my first ever aborted session today - after doing a warm-up i understood i've no chance/energy to complete the whole thing. hopefully i'll feel stronger tomorrow!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 27, 2018, 07:19:40 pm
Welcome to our club zigzag! Sometimes the best choice is rest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 27, 2018, 09:09:50 pm
I climbed off during the warm up a few weeks ago.   Felt guilty for days but sometimes it’s just not there.

This week, however, I love training and racing again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 27, 2018, 09:39:23 pm
Looked at tonight’s workout. 5x2m:3r at 120%. Nope.

Did Monitor which was fine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on March 28, 2018, 08:07:55 am
my first ever aborted session today - after doing a warm-up i understood i've no chance/energy to complete the whole thing. hopefully i'll feel stronger tomorrow!

I had a hard under/over session (McAdie) to do 10 days ago and it felt pretty grim from the off. Kept going but only by reducing the Intensity for the last couple of blocks. The TSS still managed to be higher than any prior session in my lengthy (month long!) TR "career" up to then. Cue a week+ of acute moaning man flu.

But! The off-bike time was usefully spent by upgrading the turbo setup to erg and accurate power measurement ;D

I've an FTP test to look forward to, therefore, that will likely reveal my earlier virtual power numbers to have been somewhat optimistic...  :'(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 28, 2018, 09:00:46 am
You might be lucky - I think my Virtual Power was under reading by about 15 Watts (compared to my P1 pedals).
After quitting my last session halfay through the second interval (of 2), I'm going to tweak things a bit and skip Thursday's workout completely.  That means I get to stay in bed an extra hour! Then I'll do Saturdays 1.5 hour workout on Friday (bank holiday - yay), have the whole weekend off, and start again next Tuesday (or maybe bring the Tuesday workout forwards to Monday afternoon depending).
I think I gain more FTP when resting aftr a big chunk of Training stress than I do when piling it on further (or even tapering it off a bit), and it feels so much fresher when you get back on after an extra couple of days off...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on March 28, 2018, 09:55:10 am
I think I gain more FTP when resting aftr a big chunk of Training stress than I do when piling it on further (or even tapering it off a bit), and it feels so much fresher when you get back on after an extra couple of days off...

With hindsight I should probably have started out with Low Volume, not Mid Volume. I chose the latter because I generally have plenty of time available but maybe it was too much of a step up in workload from my pre-TR regime, compounded by my schedule causing me to compress the training week on a few occasions. It felt fine - surprisingly so - until it eventually didn't, and the accumulated fatigue took its toll...

Being the first time I've followed a structured training programme linked to FTP, it's become clear there's little slacking within TR - most sessions are pretty hard, it's just the degree that varies! I've always needed a decent amount of recovery, and with TR I'd misjudged how much work I was doing (or capable of).

Still, it's all a useful learning exercise  ;D

Onward and upward-ish!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 28, 2018, 10:39:17 am
I started on Low Volume, and I'm not sure I could have coped with the Mid Volume. It feels like all the low volume rides are intense (except for rest week), it's just that the specific sort of stress you are subject to varies. I just checked the ride I'm gonna do Friday - ouch: https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/114527-stromlo-4 - that's going to hurt!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on March 29, 2018, 12:22:39 am
my first ever aborted session today - after doing a warm-up i understood i've no chance/energy to complete the whole thing. hopefully i'll feel stronger tomorrow!

managed to complete this workout (williamson +4) today with only a couple of backpedals, a day of rest made a big difference!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 30, 2018, 05:59:44 pm
Extra rest made a massive difference to me as well.  Almost entirely on plan power wise:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/27772629

I've got a bike fit on Tuesday evening, so if I get time I'll do Tuesday's workout on Monday.

Saturday I'm riding my first ever (proper) 10.  I'm supposed to be doing this TR session https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/363857-dardanelles-1 - I assume I should probably do my 10 and then stick an extra half an hour threshold workout on top?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on March 30, 2018, 06:39:57 pm
I’d suggest ride your 10 and warm up and down and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on March 30, 2018, 08:05:29 pm
Last week I did a 3hr ride on the morning before my mid afternoon 10.   I hadn’t ridden the TT bike on the road since the previous Summer so it needed a test.   I took it very gently, though.

If it’s your first proper 10 then put your concentration into that and ignore training for the day.   You should be laid on the floor coughing for a while if you get it right, anyway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on March 30, 2018, 08:43:23 pm
This is the course: https://www.strava.com/activities/985665312/segments/24166405429
My best time of 27 something was when riding in TTT formation - on my own I only achieved this 29:50. Strava estimates 169 Watts, so I should be able to beat that given my current FTP is 256. I have no idea how quick I can go though - I'll just try 260W on the way to the turn and see how deep I can go on the way back...

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 01, 2018, 08:30:34 am
Can’t see the course on that link.

Has it got a course code ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 01, 2018, 09:46:24 pm
CC118 is what the segment is called - I think that's the name of the course?
This is the segment from the club website: https://www.strava.com/segments/1951541
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 01, 2018, 10:53:57 pm
Good luck with it. Have you seen the TT thread in the Racing section?

I'll be riding Yr Elenydd on Saturday. Slightly different.

Not had a good weekend training wise. Work has been keeping me up late and it's caught up with me, and I'm having a bit of rest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 03, 2018, 09:08:45 am
Rubbish ride this morning.  https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/29073852
I spent a few minutes in each interval in the aerobars, but I felt pretty crap, I think I'm starting a cold, and we just ate junk and sat around on the weekend. Also sore bottom, which is why I cut it off short (bike fit this evening - hopefully this will help my position become more comfy).
Also took 2 goes at starting this ride - I got a new ANT+ dongle, so I tried using that on my laptop - it picked up the P1s for a while, but then towards the end of the warmup it lost connection, so I gave up and switched back to using bluetooth on my phone (had to start the session again).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 03, 2018, 10:24:33 am
If you're racing Saturday don't do anything hard after Wednesday.

I've got a 25 on Saturday afternoon and I'm doing some top end tempo intervals tonight and then just commuting for the rest of the week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 03, 2018, 11:01:42 am
The TR plan calls for Nightcap -1 on Thursday - that looks a bit too much like hard work. https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/196719-nightcap-1
I was thinking I would do maybe 2 or 3 x 8 minute intervals around threshold trying to stay in my newly adjusted aero position. It's probably a good idea to try it before Saturday, and I find that riding at low power changes how I sit, so I'd rather give it some gas. Otherwise I won't be on the bike between Tuesday evening and Saturday morning, and that feels like too big a gap (especially for a 10).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 08, 2018, 06:51:53 pm
My cold has kicked in properly. I skipped the Thursday ride and did the TT yesterday - it was OK (though I can't breathe through my nose I don't think that made much difference to my time). Got family stuff happening this week, and it's a recovery week, so I'm definitely not doing the Tuesday ride - I might skip the Thursday one as well depending on how far past the cold I am.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on April 08, 2018, 07:11:19 pm
I follow a plan built using the principles contained in the book fast after fifty by Joe Friel.

He covers three basic intensities of intervals; aerobic capacity, lactate threshold, and aerobic threshold.  He covers nutrition and recovery. He covers testing. He covers periodisation. He covers efficiency factors. He covers strength work He covers a few other things as well, including how to build a plan

It contains some great advice, particularly if you miss an interval or cannot complete it. He also covers what the priority workouts should be during each period of training. The ones you should try and do, even if you miss lower priority ones.

Till this year I had never done structured training, but I am really enjoying it, and enjoying the results I am seeing.

Joe Friel also has a new version of the Cyclist's Training Bible out.  But so far I have found fast after fifty and building plans using knowledge contained within works well for me without getting too in depth. Though he does cover the biggest causes of decline in performance after fifty.

I listen to music during the workouts, but recently tried podcasts.  Sherlock Holmes does not work, too complicated a plot in the middle of an interval.  Adventures series, Kayaking the length of the Columbia River worked very well for me.

I am surprised as how well I have taken to it, but I think this is in part, because it allows me to enjoy my audaxes and road rides without worrying about how hard I am working. I can just enjoy the mental relaxation and scenery and other aspects of being on the road with no other concerns.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 08, 2018, 07:15:17 pm
I didn't ride Yr Elenydd as I'd planned to on Saturday. Good thing too - my new bike build has a few niggles. Front disc rubbing, and rear mudguard stay came loose twice on today's 41km hilly ride. I managed to sort out the disc rub with a hack involving a piece of cardboard folded over the disc to force the pads to reset. I'll need to replace the mudguard bolts used with longer ones (and without the stupid rounded head - those have smaller allen heads than the same M5 or whatever bolt, and the result is they strip before you get them tight enough).

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 08, 2018, 08:41:53 pm
My cold has kicked in properly. I skipped the Thursday ride and did the TT yesterday - it was OK (though I can't breathe through my nose I don't think that made much difference to my time). Got family stuff happening this week, and it's a recovery week, so I'm definitely not doing the Tuesday ride - I might skip the Thursday one as well depending on how far past the cold I am.

Snap.  Got up yesterday with a sore throat but decided to go out for the day anyway.  Did 2hrs before my 25 and a long warm down afterwards giving me 102 miles for the day.   I knew I had done something yesterday, but today I feel awful.   Pity as I was going to do one more hard week before we go on holiday for a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on April 08, 2018, 09:36:59 pm
Quote
I listen to music during the workouts, but recently tried podcasts

I like Netflix as with an Erg turbo it does not matter if you switch off.  However i have also used the Serial podcast in the last couple of weeks.  Engaging but not too much concentration needed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 08, 2018, 10:46:08 pm
Quote
I listen to music during the workouts, but recently tried podcasts

I like Netflix as with an Erg turbo it does not matter if you switch off.  However i have also used the Serial podcast in the last couple of weeks.  Engaging but not too much concentration needed.

I think Netflix etc are good for the easier workouts where you can just spin away. For stuff needing more focus I use music. AIUI, there is research suggesting a drop in performance if cognitive load is increased. Clearly with an erg trainer this effect would be minimised.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on April 09, 2018, 06:39:05 am
I would agree totally with the drop in  performance with too much cognitive load and a standard trainer. My experience is that during an interval on an erg trainer cognitive load makes little difference. The problem comes with changes.

Trainerroad I find with its ability to run minimised but still put warnings on the whole screen is perfect for me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 09, 2018, 09:55:13 am
I only really do higher end stuff on the turbo and I have to work to the notes written next to me and what the Garmin tells me.

Therefore I only use music playing wirelessly from my iPhone.   Preference at the moment is fir more dancer type stuff, which I believe the yoof no refer to as EDM.   Recent favourites have been live albums from Daft Punk and Underworld.   I have a couple of playlists of angry nu metal and have also strayed back, occasionally, to 80s hair metal with a bit of Def Leppard.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on April 09, 2018, 11:24:29 am
I would agree totally with the drop in  performance with too much cognitive load and a standard trainer. My experience is that during an interval on an erg trainer cognitive load makes little difference. The problem comes with changes.

Trainerroad I find with its ability to run minimised but still put warnings on the whole screen is perfect for me.
I find intervals harder if I'm watching YouTube over some hard core music so there is certainly a cognitive hook of some sort.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 09, 2018, 11:53:47 am
I think it depends on they type of interval. I find that longer steady ones are fine with podcasts (though there can be a risk that my focus drifts after a few minutes) - short sharp repeated ones are harder, and I often realise I've missed part of the podcast if I do them properly.
The type of podcast matters too - if I listen to Trainer Road or football ones then it's fine, but if I try to listen to coding ones then I really struggle - they need too much attention.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Giropaul on April 09, 2018, 11:54:37 am
I was a soigneur for a team on Paris-Nice once. One team tried music, with an adjustable beat, played loudly from the team car for the final, uphill, time trial.
They had shown that the cyclist tries to pedal to the beat, consciously or not.
The UCI banned the practice just afterwards.

At the Wattbike sessions I do we discourage earphones or music for the same reasons, riders follow the beat not the specified revs. The best motivation, as stated by the session participants, is working in a group.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on April 09, 2018, 11:59:47 am
When I trained seriously (a generation ago), my best turbo sessions were done looking solely at the (cadence, power and heartrate) numbers with no distractions at all i.e. no music. I loathed those training sessions though and dropped them like a hot potato each year as soon as the track championships started.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on April 09, 2018, 04:11:17 pm
Is it just me who makes a playlist by bpm for cadence, then?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on April 09, 2018, 04:14:23 pm
I try to go by effort level for the music. I don't find the music affects my cadence. What I'd like is a playlist builder that looked at the workout and selected music to suit.

A close tennis match, on the other hand, causes my heart rate to be all over the place on a steady zone 2 effort.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on April 09, 2018, 07:18:44 pm
Is it just me who makes a playlist by bpm for cadence, then?

 :-\

The problem I have is that if I listen to the same music when doing normal tasks I start to get a bit tense.   I think I have developed a subconscious link between dance music and hurting myself.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on April 09, 2018, 09:12:13 pm
Is it just me who makes a playlist by bpm for cadence, then?
No, I have an FTP and ramp test playlist plus for everything else there's some hard and fast euro EDM to keep pace to....
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on April 11, 2018, 09:03:00 am
Is it just me who makes a playlist by bpm for cadence, then?

 :-\

The problem I have is that if I listen to the same music when doing normal tasks I start to get a bit tense.   I think I have developed a subconscious link between dance music and hurting myself.
Well yeah. Coming into the outskirts of Paris last PBP my radio started playing some tracks from a spinning class. Mr Smith was a bit (unpleasantly) surprised by the boost from behind.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on April 13, 2018, 02:18:54 pm
I had a hard under/over session (McAdie) to do 10 days ago and it felt pretty grim from the off. Kept going but only by reducing the Intensity for the last couple of blocks. The TSS still managed to be higher than any prior session in my lengthy (month long!) TR "career" up to then. Cue a week+ of acute moaning man flu.

Well, a brief interlude of wellness followed that man flu before I succumbed to a lingering nasty cold/throat infection which still persists. All training out of the window for a few weeks now, with my TR sub mocking me daily.

Don't think I've ever had such a prolonged period of sickness. Any connection to the earlier much ramped-up workload is purely coincidental, I'm sure...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on April 13, 2018, 02:39:59 pm
Well, a brief interlude of wellness followed that man flu before I succumbed to a lingering nasty cold/throat infection which still persists. All training out of the window for a few weeks now, with my TR sub mocking me daily.

Don't think I've ever had such a prolonged period of sickness. Any connection to the earlier much ramped-up workload is purely coincidental, I'm sure...

It's a bugger, isn't it.  At the same stage myself with the lingering "swallowing broken glass" and coughing up phlegm thing going on, but have been persisting with trainer sessions in the gym and today pushed my HR to 176 (the highest I've recorded in a long time) during a simulated 10m hill climb.  No doubt a symptom of being unwell but happy to at least get some training in as I have my first event next Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on April 13, 2018, 02:52:37 pm
Well, a brief interlude of wellness followed that man flu before I succumbed to a lingering nasty cold/throat infection which still persists. All training out of the window for a few weeks now, with my TR sub mocking me daily.

Don't think I've ever had such a prolonged period of sickness. Any connection to the earlier much ramped-up workload is purely coincidental, I'm sure...

It's a bugger, isn't it.  At the same stage myself with the lingering "swallowing broken glass" and coughing up phlegm thing going on, but have been persisting with trainer sessions in the gym and today pushed my HR to 176 (the highest I've recorded in a long time) during a simulated 10m hill climb.  No doubt a symptom of being unwell but happy to at least get some training in as I have my first event next Sunday.

A kindred spirit! Bar the broken glass and foul stuff I actually feel pretty normal now so I'll probably do a super gentle session keeping the HR right down. Cheers.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 13, 2018, 03:54:26 pm
I'm in the same boat - done TR solidly since September and got my FTP up significantly, and then this rotten cold has come along and I've not been on the turbo for 2 weeks (I did a TT last Saturday and got a PB, but I wasn't anywhere near what I wanted). My wife and daughter have had the same bug, and to a similar level, so I don't think I got it worse because I'd been training...
Gonna have a bike fit on Sunday, so hopefully I can do an FTP test and get going again from then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on April 15, 2018, 11:10:23 am
A strange thing has happened.  Just finished my usual training lap of the "hills" of north London - a loop taking in Muswell Hill, Highgate Hill & Swains Lane - which comes in at exactly 15 miles.  Being in town there are obviously variations due to traffic, lights, etc, but I've been doing this for several years so times vary but are within a known range (~2 mins).

Anyway, got back and casually checked the Bolt and, lo, it was the fastest ever time by a full 5 minutes (53.06 vs previous 58.04).  I thought something must be wrong so double-checked everything but the stats are all correct.  This is fairly incredible!  I'm on the tail end of a bad cold and was coughing my lungs up by the end (sports-induced asthma?) but was determined to do a fast ride in preparation for my first event of the year next Sunday.

What has caused this increase in form is unclear.  The only change in my programme has been mixing up intervals on the trainer - 30 mins of fast efforts followed by 2 x 10 mins of 110% FTP at high resistance and low cadence (~60) staying seated - real killers!  Also I've been doing more goblet squats - 8 x 12 reps @ 40k three times a week.  They really seem to target the quads in a beneficial way for cycling.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 16, 2018, 10:00:29 am
I'm back into it now.  Bike fit Sunday morning - position fine on the hoods but I need a new saddle (so I can get forward and open up my hip angle while getting my back down low) and a -17 degree stem to get reasonably low in my aero bars. I followed that by a Ramp Test X (was supposed to be a 20 minute test but I didn't have the motivation).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/32966849
I stopped about 30 seconds before I did on my last one, so I guess my FTP has probably lost a few watts, but given I have hardly ridden in 2 weeks and I still have a rubbish head cold, I think that's not a bad outcome.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on April 16, 2018, 12:51:12 pm
i had a first big weekend of riding this year with 456km all in (audax plus club run), felt quite strong on both days although the club run was painful on sunday. my rule of thumb recovery time is one day for 100km ridden, so will be back on the trainer thursday or friday to start the final intensive week of build phase.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 17, 2018, 10:42:14 am
Well that hurt. Couldn't do the last interval, even with it turned down a bit:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/33045675

I guess being able to breathe is probably useful.  :-X
The new FTP from the ramp test came back as 248.  First time I've gone downwards, but not too bad given the caveats.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on April 18, 2018, 08:10:11 pm
Helped out with the first club TT last night so went and did it myself today far more motivational than an ftp test!
FTP up by 8 according to Xert and a good time to work on for the rest of the season especially as I had mudguards, Dynamo, etc on the bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 24, 2018, 10:34:14 am
I'm really struggling with getting my consistency back after my cold. I've now got 8 completed TR rides, 6 abandoned ones, and 2 outdoor rides in my current plan.
I've got another TT on Thursday, so that will be another outdoor ride, and Saturday I recced the course and tacked on a nearby hill, so that was a good solid ride with high consistent power and high TSS, but I slept badly again last night so I skipped this morning's TR ride.
I've not got my low stem or new saddle yet, so I will have to use my old position in the TT :( but I am planning on taking off the water bottle, sticking out pump etc and making the bike a bit cleaner. I need to bodge a bridge across my aero bars to attach a light to.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on April 24, 2018, 11:01:12 am
I'm really struggling with getting my consistency back after my cold. I've now got 8 completed TR rides, 6 abandoned ones, and 2 outdoor rides in my current plan.

My batch of colds / sore throat / chest infection took me out for a month; still have a very occasional tickly cough (habit?) but in all other regards feel restored to full health.

I've completed two TR sessions since returning, shifting to shorter duration "minus" variants of the specified workouts and dialing back the intensity to 95% half way through the over-unders. This may be a combination of loss of form due to the long break, perhaps compounded by a recent shift to accurate power measurement, rendering my previous FTP setting somewhat optimistic...

Planning another "minus" variant today, then a short break followed by (probably) an FTP test to reset my number to something accurate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on April 24, 2018, 11:50:44 am
Finished my first competitive ride of the year on Sunday and my optimism from the previous Sunday's training ride was largely validated.  A PB by 4.5 minutes (this time over a hilly 90-mile course), in spite of the recent lurgy, and placed 45th out of 600 (many of whom are pretty serious club riders on bling bikes riding in chain gangs) and 2nd in age category.  Never finished higher than 75th overall in the 8 previous rides of the same event.

The training seems to be working!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 27, 2018, 07:40:06 pm
The next 2 weeks (after tomorrow) of the TR 40k TT plan are "taper". I don't have anything in 2 weeks time, so that seems unnecessary to me. Is there any benefit in doing it, or should I return to a sustained power build plan?
I have no specific goals that I really need to be at my best for, I just want to keep building my fitness (and now I have my TT saddle and stem I can also work on my position).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on April 27, 2018, 07:56:35 pm
Taper as you know is to improve your form or freshness ahead of an event without losing too much fitness. So if no event no reason you can not do something higher volume and / or stress. Just watch out for overtraining / fatigue creeping in if you do not build in enough recovery in your plans.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on April 27, 2018, 08:01:39 pm
it's becoming too hot for me to train indoors; the windows are south facing and the temperature in the room is 21+ deg even when it's cloudy/rainy like today. could barely finish sweet spot session (with reduced intensity) which i normally find quite easy..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on April 28, 2018, 01:19:18 pm
it's becoming too hot for me to train indoors; the windows are south facing and the temperature in the room is 21+ deg even when it's cloudy/rainy like today. could barely finish sweet spot session (with reduced intensity) which i normally find quite easy..

South-facing training room here also. I've taken to keeping the blinds in the room down and window open near-permanently to stop the temp climbing. I use two high velocity fans currently and aim to squeeze in a third to help extend the turbo season. That plus a semi-illegal "cover your eyes" dress code...

Sheer madness, but needs must!, as I wish to stick to a TR plan as far as possible for the next 5 months. When the baking British sunshine scuppers me regardless, I'll hit the road or run instead.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 28, 2018, 02:17:36 pm
I'm in the garage.  It's been freezing all winter, but hopefully it will be OK in the summer!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on April 28, 2018, 10:55:00 pm
New saddle and stem (negative 17 degrees) put me in a much better TT position - lower at the front and much more forwards. My ride wasn't very good though:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/33541106

Possibly I was still a bit fatigued from the TT Thursday evening, but it didn't feel like I was quite high enough - I felt like all the power was coming from my quads, and eventually I cooked them. I'm going to do the next week and try to do it all in TT position (I've not donr a full week in ages), then I'll do a recovery week, and then I'll get after the Build phase again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on April 29, 2018, 03:23:59 am
I do a solid month of TR, join the local club TT group, go on holiday and hit the gym bike every day, I add in goblet squats (top tip😁). What happens? 2 days from end of holiday I get a running nose and cough!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on May 01, 2018, 08:50:43 am
But! The off-bike time was usefully spent by upgrading the turbo setup to erg and accurate power measurement ;D

I've an FTP test to look forward to, therefore, that will likely reveal my earlier virtual power numbers to have been somewhat optimistic...  :'(

Finally did another FTP test: it's dropped by 5 watts, but (very unusually for me) my weight's fallen too, which I partially attribute to the illness, with the overall result being 3.25 w/kg now from a virtual 3.2 previously.

I'm very happy with that result as it covers a period where the following all occurred:
- 5 weeks of TR sweetspot base programme, albeit spread over a much longer period, plus periodic running sessions at a similar intensity to the TR workouts.
- approx a month in total lost to cold, sore throat, tonsillitis and bronchitis - the works;
- switching from virtual power to a smart trainer with accurate power measurement.

I feel I've made progress, despite the sicknote, which I can tell during the short runs I do. I'm sure that the switch to accurate power measurement on the trainer is masking some of the underlying progress, ie. the earlier FTP virtual-derived number was perhaps overstated by ~5%.

I've founds erg mode makes TR easier to use - mentally less taxing - and the ramp test easier to execute: earlier I was sometimes struggling to find suitable gears (bike had quite wide ratios) as the steps ramped up, causing cadence to make big jumps.

When I first posted on this thread at the beginning of March, I was aiming to go from 3.2 w/kg to 3.5 w/kg by the end of the summer: a nearly 10% increase over 6 months appeared very achievable.

One third of that time has now passed, with only half a step forward. BUT I remain motivated, will stick to the plan and see where it gets me!  ;D

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on May 01, 2018, 10:33:48 am
I rode this morning and I was crap. The plan called for 4x 5minute intervals at ~FTP. I managed about 3 minutes in the aero position on the first one, and finished on the hoods. I managed about 2 minutes in the aero position on the second, but couldn't get my legs working on the hoods either, so just cooled down and stopped.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/33652521

The aero position is approximately what I had when I did my TT fit, but it's a massive change compared to my normal road position (I sit quite far back normally, so to get low at the front I have to move where I sit forwards by about 4-5 cm!). I don't think I'm getting full leg extension having moved forwards so far, so I probably need to go up a bit, but it also just feels really strange. I need to spend a lot more time in this position to be able to get the power out there (and it's probably worth checking the position is decent aero-wise before I do and discover it's all wrong!).
However, I might be part of a 9 up TTT in a month or so, so I need to get training in the drops (no aero bars or pointy hats). I might just put my original saddle back on, lift the bars up a bit and do a Build to get my sustainable power back up, and come back to the TT position afterwards.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on May 02, 2018, 09:25:18 am
Don't unpick your position changes straight away.   I ended up with a similar position after a bike fit 5 years ago and it worked for me, although it's maybe not the existing TT fashion where saddles are going back again.   The forward postion/wider hip angle is a bit more tri-specific.

It's not uncommon for a marked difference in output between the 2 positions but you will adapt.   Perhaps re-test your power in position and then work from that ?   the difference will narrow over time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on May 02, 2018, 01:15:30 pm
I'm not going to completely ditch this TT position, but I can't ride it unless I'm in the aero bars, and that's not allowed for the TTT. I'll try to mix and match until the 9 up thing is done, and then I'll go back to TT focus and work on this position. I would just stick with it if it weren't for the TTT rules. 
I will probably get someone to take a few pictures of it and put them on the TT forum (will have to tidy up first!), I don't want to work towards a position and then discover that it's not aero anyway!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on May 10, 2018, 10:11:26 am
I started my new build today. I opted for the General Build because I felt that doing another sustained Power Build would be very samey. The FTP test is the 8 minute one - I wanted a workout so I stuck to the plan rather than going for the Ramp Test X like I have for the last few tests. As always, I paced it terribly - this time I realised towards the end of each effort that I had more available and at the end of the second effort I was able to do a minute at ~300W. The FTP came out at 239 (with my previous being 248), but I'm going to stick to my previous value thanks to my pacing ineptitude!
You can see it here: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/34121711-8-minute-ftp-test

I'm going to skip the Thursday workout, do the weekend one, skip next Tuesday as I've got a 10 mile TTT, and then hopefully I'll be back in the swing of getting up and getting the power down up. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on May 13, 2018, 08:15:40 pm
That was how workouts are supposed to be! It was really hard, and on the suggestion of the workout text I turned the intensity down a little (97%), but I did all the intervals, and there were lots of them!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/34373204-spanish-needle

It was hard to be precise, because to do 90rpm at 90W, and then jump to 350W (~110 rpm or so) and then repeat every 15 seconds meant I was always changing gear, and always not far from the next interval. 24 and a half minutes in the anaerobic section shows how tough it was.

Hopefully my legs are still good tomorrow - a 10 minute TTT race on Tuesday evening should be fun. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on May 17, 2018, 07:06:47 am
Racing and audax taking up a bit more time now so down to 2 pretty brief but hard turbo sessions a week, on top of commuting.

About 8 weeks of hard work left.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on May 19, 2018, 09:42:02 pm
I rode a TTT on Tuesday and rode to/from the event, so to limit my TSS I skipped Thursdays ride (also slept terribly). Today I did the scheduled Saturday ride, and it was really good. Despite the requirement for repeated 30 second sprints I stayed seated the whole time. 170 rpm is a new cadence record (27:10 in)!
The ride in general felt good - didn't need to bail on anything, only real difficulties were when I dropped down after the the sprints and couldn't hold - I could build back up again after a brief power drop though. My right calf felt tight at the start of the third set, but it sorted itself out - I think it was more a back/nerve issue than a muscular one.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/34673426-lion-rock
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on May 22, 2018, 09:48:14 am
Bah.  I got up early today to do a short under/over workout and make sure my position was OK with the TT bars and saddle. Sadly, my (P1) pedals wouldn't pair with my phone (or headunit). Eventually I decided to try replacing the batteries - they sprung into life but I didn't have time to do my workout. :(
Lithium batteries are hard to find in shops - I will have to put up with energisers for now and get some lithiums ready for next time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on June 03, 2018, 08:27:22 am
I'm mixing a TR Build plan (General build) with club team time trial rides. I did a ramp test yesterday (rather than Tuesday morning), and my FTP has gone up again: 261W.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/35283732-ramp-test

While the gaps in my cassette (11-32) are quite large, I was doing OK and moving down the cassette makes the gaps smaller. Then, just as it was beginning to get tough (around 290W), I ran out of gears! Had to change into the big ring, back up the cassette and into the gappy bit. It's really hard trying to hit the target power when you're just starting to blow up and you've a choice between 95rpm or sub 80 (I would ride a 20 minute test around 85-90)!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on July 30, 2018, 12:56:41 pm
Well it seems I've not recovered from the 400k the weekend before last, yet. Failed on Mills -4 today. CV fitness not really the issue - legs just felt heavy. As long as I'm ok in time for Peterborough Regatta a week on Saturday, it won't matter too much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on August 06, 2018, 08:53:16 am
I rode my bike with a TR workout yesterday for the first time since I hurt my foot (July 1 - torn ligament in foot due to landing on tiptoes falling over and bending the foot the wrong way). I chose Baxter, because it's low power, but after about 15 minutes my calf started to tighten up and I didn't want to push it so I did another 10 minutes super easy and then stopped. A whole 11 TSS! :) The rest of the system (foot, leg, other leg, CV system) felt like it was easy, so hopefully I've not completely destroyed my fitness! The only time my foot hurt was when the time came to unclip!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/37967290-baxter-2
The physio has given me calf stretches and raises, because the initial swelling, followed by limping and avoiding bending my foot has caused tightness in the calf and the plantar fascia. Possibly even some trauma in the original injury too. I'm thinking I'll ride a couuple more times this week, hopefully get up to 1 hour without pain, and then next week I'll drop my FTP by 30W and start a base training plan. The traditional base looks quite boring, but it'll probably be a good start - avoid applying too much force too soon...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on August 06, 2018, 09:17:32 am
Good luck with recovery and getting back into it.

No time for TR at the moment. Rowing water session on Saturday nearly finished us off. Stroke threw up by the 3rd piece of our 6x500m and I was dry heaving at the end of 4th and 5th. We called it at that point, had 45 minutes rest then went out again and did 11km of UT2 (rowing equivalent of endurance) with some bursts. Everyone was totally done in. So I had a rest day yesterday - back on the water tonight.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on August 06, 2018, 09:50:39 am
That sounds brutal. Is this some sort of training camp before a big event?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on August 06, 2018, 10:24:40 am
That sounds brutal. Is this some sort of training camp before a big event?

We’re racing at Peterborough Regatta on Saturday and Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on August 13, 2018, 10:31:26 am
That sounds brutal. Is this some sort of training camp before a big event?

We’re racing at Peterborough Regatta on Saturday and Sunday.

How did the racing go?

I got through most of a TR workout on Saturday, and I only cut it short because I had to go deal with dinner. :) I cut my FTP from 261 to 231 before I started it - given the threshold interval wasn't super duper hard, I think that may be a slight underestimate.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/38225080-mount-goode-4
My calf muscle was pretty good and my foot was fine (during the ride), so I think I'm probably good to do a ramp test (tomorrow) and get back into TR properly (back to Sweet Spot base I think). I've got a club TT a week on Saturday, so I'll get to ride that, but my hopes of significantly improving my time from the spring are going to have to rest on faster equipment (I'm moving from a road endurance bike with clip-ons to my fixie with a lower front end, more aero wheels and faster rolling tyres) rather than more W!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on August 13, 2018, 11:30:42 am
That sounds brutal. Is this some sort of training camp before a big event?

We’re racing at Peterborough Regatta on Saturday and Sunday.

How did the racing go?

I got through most of a TR workout on Saturday, and I only cut it short because I had to go deal with dinner. :) I cut my FTP from 261 to 231 before I started it - given the threshold interval wasn't super duper hard, I think that may be a slight underestimate.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/38225080-mount-goode-4
My calf muscle was pretty good and my foot was fine (during the ride), so I think I'm probably good to do a ramp test (tomorrow) and get back into TR properly (back to Sweet Spot base I think). I've got a club TT a week on Saturday, so I'll get to ride that, but my hopes of significantly improving my time from the spring are going to have to rest on faster equipment (I'm moving from a road endurance bike with clip-ons to my fixie with a lower front end, more aero wheels and faster rolling tyres) rather than more W!

Nice work.

We had a decent result on Saturday. We came second in the masters A/B race. This was harder than expected. The two other crews (one scratched) had a 2-second start and we overtook one of them but the other basically held onto that advantage for the whole 1000m. That was our fastest row of the day.

Then we had the Open band 2 heat, which we won fairly comfortably. 1st and 2nd through to the final. In the final we had a really tough race with Peterborough City winning and us second. They were a really strong crew.

Coming second in this event gets us more ranking points than any previous event where we've won. We get points for all the crews in band 3 - we are assumed to have beaten all of them. I think it could be as many as 14 points as there were 8 in our band and 8 in the lower band. As the results are all timed it was the case that we were faster than everyone in the lower band and there was a clear distinction. Band 1 times were faster again, but with a smaller gap.

On Sunday we came third in our heat, behind Peterborough and Cambridge 99s. We looked at the times afterwards, and the draw was really unkind to us. Across the three heats the three fastest boats were Peterborough, That 99s crew, and then us. At least we didn't have to race again, Saturday was really hard work, I've never felt so knackered getting out of a boat as after Saturday's final.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on August 13, 2018, 01:49:52 pm
That sounds like a successful if extremely hard weekend - congrats...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on August 16, 2018, 08:53:51 am
I did my promised Ramp test despite waking up feeling crap. Bad idea!
My achillies tendon was sore between 120 and 160W, then my calf, then above 200 it all seemed OK. Felt comfortable around 230W, but didn't feel like I had any zip.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/38412700-ramp-test

I gave up rather than failed, so I think that the suggested FTP of 209W is on the low side and I've ignored it! I did 12 minutes at 231W on the weekend, and that was hard but it didn't kill me. It feels like my base fitness is still OK but above threshold I don't have much extra. This weekend (assuming it stops raining!) I'm going to ride my favorite TT course on my fixie and see how that goes. I did 28:30 on the day when I mangled my foot - if I can ride it without (unusual) pain and go under 30 minutes then I'll ride the club event in a weeks time - if I suck or if the foot/achillies really hurts then I will just volunteer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on August 20, 2018, 12:01:06 pm
The foot was only sore on low cadence climbing (the way to/from the TT course). The TT itself was OK, except for the fact it was super windy and I've definitely lost fitness. My bars didn't slip, but I found it hard to hold the aero position (my right shoulder was particularly painful), so had to have some short breaks on the base bars. 29:30 ish isn't too bad, given I was only a minute slower before my month and a half off the bike! Gonna ride the TT on Saturday and see how it goes. :)

TR file here:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/38543107-stadhampton-foot-and-fixie-test

If I TT this bike next year I'm gonna have to practise putting power down at high rpm or get some bigger gears - I couldn't produce much power on the downhill part (with a tailwind).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on August 20, 2018, 09:22:46 pm
When I approached my coach at the end of 2016 and said I struggled into the wind and on drags I suggested this was something to be worked on.   He said we should try the opposite and to learn to spin faster.   Turbo drills were all done at 100-120rpm in TT position.

Seemed to really pay off over time as I can spin a 94” gear at 34/35 mph on a tailwind dual carriageway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on August 21, 2018, 10:32:19 am
I guess the difference is that while I can spin at up to 140rpm (I think my max is somewhere around 170 but that's more like hanging on than spinning!), I can't produce much force, so my power is really low. On the turbo I can produce force at that rpm - I think that there's very little flywheel effect, so if I stop pedalling then the wheel stops sharpish - obviously this is different on the road at 30mph! Do you notice that when you're on the turbo? I've not yet tried bolting my fixie into the turbo, so that's probably worth a go at some point.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on August 21, 2018, 10:40:52 am
If you use a smart trainer you can get the flywheel effect by using a bigger gear in erg mode.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on August 21, 2018, 10:54:16 am
Sadly I only have a dumb trainer.  It's one of these I got secondhand: https://tacx.com/product/booster/ I suspect the "high resistance at low speeds" bit means that it's more resistive than flywheely.
I tend to run it with the level set to 4 (out of 10). The lever is so stiff I actually broke it - now if I need to change the level I use pliers! I vary my resistance during workouts using gears - I tend to be big ring, middle cog when >200W.

My daughter has been making noises about wanting to join me for garage cycling.  Maybe that's an opportunity to get some rollers (her bike has 20" wheels, so it doesn't go in many turbos). ;) I'm assuming that spinning on rollers has a good flywheel effect (though learning to ride a fixed in a TT position on them might take a little while)?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on August 21, 2018, 11:28:37 am
I have a basic Tacx magnetic turbo with 10 resistance settings.  At the moment I do everything, apart from my warm down on level 4.  For intervals I’m doing anything between 95 and 140rpm, recoveries are 50-60rpm.   Warm down is 100rpm but on resistance setting 1, slowly dropping to 50rpm over 10 minutes.  I never stop pedalling during a turbo session.

Nothing any cleverer than that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on August 21, 2018, 12:02:22 pm
I'll try just picking a suitable ratio and riding it in just the one gear then.  I don't stop pedalling when on the turbo unless I'm getting off! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 04, 2018, 10:36:40 am
I had a proper go at an FTP test today as I get back into base training. The banana before helped (I often struggle with high power efforts if it's before breakfast). Still riding my geary bike as the fix is currently in pieces (new cranks arriving soon).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39245509-ramp-test

New FTP of 240W.  That's not bad at all, considering that I've had a couple of months of almost no riding thanks to my foot (I tested at 261W just prior to that). The foot was pretty sore at the end (and for a while afterwards), but is OK now. Gonna settle in and see how much a few months of Sweet Spot base can lift that number up. This time last year my FTP was 171 - I've got to get used to the idea of getting up early and doing the work now though.

Might experiment with a hillclimb on the fix in a couple of weeks, so I've got to get going on TR before then!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 05, 2018, 12:51:07 am
Rowing has taken all my time this year. Last regatta on Saturday. We have the rest of September off. I won’t stop rowing but it will be a lower volume and chance to reset.

While that is going on I’ll do a ramp test and jump back into low volume sweet spot base.

Good work on the FTP test. Starting this training block much higher than last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 06, 2018, 09:06:08 am
Good luck Saturday.

Back on the early morning riding routine (Tuesday and Thursday 6-7am). It's not even cold at the moment - I hope it gets easier or I'm gonna really struggle when it gets cold! I wonder if I've conditioned myself to run more on sugar over the summer. Workout was reasonable though...
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39336662-mount-field
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 09, 2018, 06:55:50 pm
Good luck Saturday.

Thanks!

We made the final. It didn’t go our way this time against a good crew from Warwick.

Now for a bit of a break from the intensity of training we’ve had. Ramp test in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 10, 2018, 09:30:22 am
Ramp test doesn't sound like a break from intensity. :)

I did a strange ride yesterday outside. A guy on a hybrid came along to a social, and I ended up riding with him and taking a shortcut to the cafe. We rode back together, but when we got back, it didn't feel like much of a ride, so I blasted a couple of hills on my way home - the total time was 4 hours for 160 TSS and I got 58 of them in the last 28  minutes!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39477986-meet-the-condors-

My legs are feeling a bit cooked today, I don't think it was advisable to do a 300 TSS week as my first week back.  ::-) Might have to take tomorrow easy and back it off a touch, otherwise I doubt I will sustain the consistency that produces the best returns.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 11, 2018, 05:43:10 pm
Ramp test doesn't sound like a break from intensity. :)

Might scale back my plans for this week as I'm still feeling a but under the weather.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on September 12, 2018, 09:42:20 pm
After a summer of little riding because, reasons, (grrr, given the weather)  Im contemplating climbing back on the trainer with a view to proper prep for a tour next spring. Just looked at my FTP history in TR, three years ago it was 299, I think I'll be starting at about 200 :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 13, 2018, 11:15:17 am
I've forgotten quite how hard sweet spot is supposed to be. 220W was surprisingly easy today, my only concern was whether it was making my knee hurt, not my legs/lungs exploding. I remember really struggling with some sweet spot stuff in the past. Maybe the banana before/during was a factor in this - usually I would be doing it early in the morning with no breakfast.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39656694-monitor
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 13, 2018, 11:16:56 am
Oooh got access to the calendar feature woo. (Still Beta I think)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 13, 2018, 11:18:33 am
Oooh got access to the calendar feature woo. (Still Beta I think)
Oooh.  I want a go at that! :)
Did you ask for it to be enabled? And is that on the website or just in the app?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 13, 2018, 11:20:43 am
Oooh got access to the calendar feature woo. (Still Beta I think)
Oooh.  I want a go at that! :)
Did you ask for it to be enabled? And is that on the website or just in the app?

Web only. There is a google form to request access, which I filled in a few days ago.

Request access here https://goo.gl/forms/sO1hAWfdxF2Gjjwb2

Also, beta tester facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TrainerRoadBetaTesters/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 17, 2018, 10:33:35 am
I have Calendar access now.  It's really cool. :)

On Saturday I sorted out my fixie, and then hammered the 6km home (including up what passes for a big hill around here).
On Sunday my quads were super stiff, but I did my TR workout anyway, and they loosened up after the first interval. It was a sweet spot one, and to get the power I could either do a cadence of 85rpm ish or one of 100 ish. The 85ish was definitely easier, but I know I need to spin more, so I did some sections of 100ish. I completed it, and it felt like it went really well.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39656694-monitor

Today my quads are tight, and my right hip flexor is sore (made more so by bouncing up the stairs to get something my daughter forgot before school). I can't remember what it was like when I was doing Tuesday-Thursday-Saturday before in terms of how much discomfort I had on the following day, but it feels like I've been working hard. I'm supposed to be doing a hill climb on Saturday (on the fixed), but I'm not sure it's a good plan if my hip flexor is bad. Gonna see how tomorrow's workout goes before I make my mind up I think... The plan has 3 more weeks of proper work before the recovery week - I think I may struggle by the end as I did too much stress in week 1 (second highest ever since I've had power) and now it's catching up with me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 17, 2018, 10:37:35 pm
Did ramp test earlier. 229W. It’ll have to do. Aim for 250W by Christmas. This would be ahead of last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 18, 2018, 08:58:18 am
Ahead of last year is always good. :)
I didn't ride this morning - my daughter woke me up twice last night, and so when the alarm went at 5:42 I just turned it off and stayed in bed!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on September 18, 2018, 09:08:39 am
Training for next year starts Mon 5th November.  In the meantime just enjoying riding the bike.

Must finish the Winter bike at some point.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 19, 2018, 11:50:06 pm
So I switched Mount Field for Monitor tonight; I also tried out SiS Beta Fuel.

I don't know if I ate something bad earlier but I struggled to reach the end of the 5th interval intact, and had to stop and go to the loo during the rest interval. Back for the final interval, and had to go after I finished the workout and again about 15 minutes later.

The workout was harder than expected. An upset stomach won't have helped.

I'm hoping it's not the Beta Fuel - if it was then it's a good job I didn't try it out at a regatta!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 20, 2018, 09:23:53 am
If you listen to the TR podcast, "don't try anything new during a race" seems to be one of their mantras.
I did a part of a workout this morning, but I was tired (woken up by my daughter and my wife last night!), and my hip flexor is still playing up.  I think it's to do with how I'm sitting at work. Also, it's supposed to be about spinning fast, but Saturday I'm going to be doing a hillclimb, and if I use my fixie then I reckon even with my new gearing I'm going to be averaging about 60 cadence. I tried riding the second interval at low cadence, but I didn't really feel like I wanted to go below 70 - the trainer "feel" really doesn't help with low cadences.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39989650-ericsson

Also, I weighed myself this morning, and I've put on 5 pounds since I last weighed myself about a month ago.  That's not going to help hillclimbing. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on September 20, 2018, 10:50:07 am
Anyone got any recommendations for turbo tyres ?   I've been through 2 Continental Hometrainers but they seem to develop cracks along the tread fairly quickly.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 23, 2018, 01:35:34 pm
I've just been using the conti roadsport that came with the bike.  Though I don't do anywhere near the mileage you do (and it is going a bit square).
After yesterday's hill climb (went well, 68rpm up in 7:32 - power PB from 1:30 to 7:32 of 332 normalized, and 150rpm down), I was probably a bit ambitious planning on doing my Saturday TR ride today. I got through one 20 minute sweet spot interval, but got quite cold in the rest period and my quad tightened up, so I called it early and did some stretching. Now my quad feels fine, but my hip flexor/groin on the right is definitely complaining. Hopefully it's just tightness and I can do the next workout on Tuesday. My cold might have gone by then as well.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/40144399-eclipse
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 24, 2018, 11:13:08 am
Tried again last night, did Carillon - no stomach issues. It's not the Beta Fuel as I used that again.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 27, 2018, 11:13:11 am
TR’s calendar is now out of beta.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 27, 2018, 12:03:29 pm
I played with it a bit when it was in Beta, it's pretty cool. Sadly I have a cough and a crappy cold, so I've not ridden since the weekend - I'm going to have to use the calendar to move everything one week!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on September 27, 2018, 01:05:52 pm
I really like the calendar.  I have started some weight training and TR allows me to log these with a notional TSS based on RPE.

I should get a chance to try the new calendar in the PC app tonight when i do my session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on September 27, 2018, 05:13:49 pm
Everything I've been doing (i.e. rowing, cycling, weights) has been logged in Strava and Trainingpeaks and also ends up in TR.

I'd like to be able to ditch TrainingPeaks. TR aren't quite there yet. For one thing, if it's not swim run or cycle it's "other". I want to have more categories.

I'd also like them to estimate TSS from heart rate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on September 27, 2018, 07:49:27 pm
Yes - I think when they get HRtss sorted that might be it for TP.  I'm going to experiment with the new calendar in the next week readying for next years adventures

Just in case peeps might have missed it, I note on the TR forum that they have a price increase coming but you can lock in the current price if you are already a subscriber/subscribe before 8th Oct  Details here:  https://forum.trainerroad.com/t/trainerroad-pricing-update-but-you-until-oct-8th-2018-to-lock-in-at-current-pricing/667
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on September 29, 2018, 01:59:14 pm
i did a ramp test today and really struggled with the motivation to push myself to the max. this resulted the ftp drop of 31w or 4.6 -> 4.0w/kg. i reckon my real figure is around 4.2 now, provided i'm hyped up have mental capacity to suffer. i'll redo the test next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on September 29, 2018, 04:08:37 pm
Any sort of FTP test pushes your mental strengths as much as your physical ones, but the difference with the ramp is that you get a rubbish number - if you quit on the 20 or 8 minute tests than you don't get a result at all. I'd endorse your plan to re-test next week with good motivation. :)

I just rode outside for fun today - I've got a horrible cough so I'd not been riding this week, and it's sunny and reasonably warm outside. Gotta make the best of it. :) I'll resume the TR plan on Tuesday after missing a week...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 04, 2018, 12:43:35 pm
I rode Tuesday, but cut it with 1 interval left because I was running late.
Today was Geiger, and it felt quite hard. Right hamstring tightened up after a few minutes of the last interval. I rode through it, and then my right calf tightened, followed by my right quad and adductor. I could maintain power by using my left a bit more and giving my right some lower power breaks. Too much time slightly below power means I spent lots of time in the Tempo range, but Sweet Spot is quite a narrow band, so I guess that's not terrible. At least I got 2 TR rides in this week - I need to re-establish my consistency.
Tuesday: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/40679697-tunnabora
Today: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/40827270-geiger

I think I'm getting these effects on my right leg as a consequence of injuring my right foot this summer. I doubt I can train and also do corrective work, I'm hoping that as I train it will gradually drag up to the same as the other leg. I'll probably go back to my physio in a week or two, but the foot is almost completely better - these lingering effects are annoying me now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 05, 2018, 02:38:29 pm
Stretched before I went to bed last night.  Woke up in the middle of the night with my back spasming. I think I need to do some core work (and sit better at work).
Will see if I can fit lifting weights twice a week into my routine - it'll help with maintaining functional power and bone density and with any luck help with top end cycling power too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 05, 2018, 02:45:11 pm
https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/heal-your-lower-back-pain-with-these-5-yoga-poses
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 05, 2018, 04:36:13 pm
I got up and did 1,3, and 4b last night when I woke up in pain!
Improved today - I think the chair at my desk is causing some of the issues - the arms stop it going under the desk properly so I can't use the backrest and reach my keyboard/see my screens properly. I shall bring my allen keys in on Monday and remove them. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on October 05, 2018, 07:46:47 pm
I have just found the Max overload for cyclists book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bicycling-Maximum-Overload-Cyclists-Magazine/dp/1623367743/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bicycling-Maximum-Overload-Cyclists-Magazine/dp/1623367743/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=) and have done 5 sessions.  I like the emphasis on deadlifts rather than squats and the whole body nature of the workout.

Hopefully it will help along with TR to build some strength and stamina.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 08, 2018, 09:40:24 am
I will check out that book...

Saturday I felt better, so I did Warlow as scheduled.  It went pretty well and my back was fine - I found the valleys hard in the last interval but I could hold the overs. Hopefully that means I'm on track - I've only got a couple of weeks of SSB1 to go and then I'll do a ramp test for SSB2 and see if I've made progress.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/40991046-warlow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on October 08, 2018, 06:15:38 pm
This almost sounds too good to be true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAQ73OJdwY

What does the assembled panel reckon?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on October 08, 2018, 10:13:50 pm
Interesting concept. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 09, 2018, 09:34:36 am
Sounds like the whole "long slow" approach to base. I guess how much of a benefit it is depends on what your training is for.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on October 09, 2018, 10:02:14 am
It's Maffetone training. I've tried it - it's really boring. Also - the Maffetone upper limit of 180-age (122 for me) is way too low - I can't even sit on a bike without my HR getting close to 100, even though my resting HR is in the 50s.

Looks like this guy uses 60% of max, which is 114 for me; again - I can't ride a bike at that, and you can forget running; as soon as I have two feet off the pavement at the same time, my HR is 140+.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 09, 2018, 10:06:20 am
So much for being back on track. I really sucked today - couldn't get the legs/lungs going at all, then my back tightened up and I quit and went and did some stretching instead.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/41219091-carillon
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 09, 2018, 10:26:13 am
So all I’ve managed cycling wise last week is a 20 mile stready ride.

Re the YouTube link above, it’s followed by another on intervals from the same guy. I think what he is describing is polarised training. So you’d do anything but sweet spot.

Not enough hours in the day for me to buy into that approach, sadly.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnAKD1Q8PRQ-lo2fMXbYdLyaJUHznbfvG
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 11, 2018, 01:11:47 pm
I'm lucky if I can get 4 hours training in a week, so that's not for me either. Slept horribly, so didn't get up for my workout this morning. Hopefully sleep better tonight and do the workout tomorrow instead. Sleep doesn't matter if I ride later in the day, but I can't sleep badly and then get up and be good on the bike. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 12, 2018, 09:46:10 am
Slept better, so back on it today.  Was OK - I need to focus better and keep it in the sweet spot zone more - too much of the ride was in tempo.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/41399717-tallac
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 14, 2018, 08:47:30 pm
So I had a day today where I wasn't doing rowing training. So I did Antelope, which I found very tough. I dropped to 95% and then 90% to get through it.

Given I did a sculling session and then circuit training yesterday I probably did ok all things considered.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 14, 2018, 09:39:37 pm
Sculling and then circuits the day before a TR ride? That would kill me (and Antelope is hard).

Last full bore workout of SSB1 today:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/41521465-palisade
It's not an easy workout, and I found it really tough (had a day on my feet yesterday). Should probably have eaten immediately before as well. Still, next week is a rest week and I'm away on the weekend, so I'll do an easy ride Tuesday and a Ramp Test on Thursday, before kicking off SSB2 next Thursday. Hopefully the ramp test will show that I've made progress. Comparing this SSB1 to my first one last year, I have definitely found it harder to hit my power numbers (then again, my FTP is 70W higher now). I can live with struggling if I'm improving. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 16, 2018, 08:36:34 pm
Training is supposed to resume 5th Nov.

Managed to royally f*ck my body up last week.   Hopefully it can all be sorted out before then.  Will be a longer road back than I planned.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 16, 2018, 09:12:34 pm
That doesn't sound good. :(
What did you do? If you can find some way of doing moderate exercise (eg pool) then you may not lose as much of what you have now as you would think?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 17, 2018, 11:35:28 am
That doesn't sound good. :(
What did you do? If you can find some way of doing moderate exercise (eg pool) then you may not lose as much of what you have now as you would think?

I went out for a gentle spin in the park lunchtime last Thursday and was brought down by an errant dog off its lead.   I'm very bruised all down one side with the hip taking the brunt.   I also cracked my helmet on the way down.   My biggest problem is with my right hand.   It was checked over in A&E and I was told it wasn't broken but it feels very bruised and I struggle to brake and have to watch out for bumps in the road.

I'm still commuting, but I had a big weekend planned with 200 mile days for Sat & Sun as a test for the Race Around the Netherlands next year.   The forecast actually looks OK so I'm pretty annoyed.   I was on schedule for 20,000 road k's this year, but I figure I'll now miss this.

I haven't ridden the turbo since I last raced in July but it's all set up again with my new position.   I suspect I'll put a couple of sessions in next week if I can't keep the road miles up.   I'm also entered for Wilkyboy's 200 the following Saturday but I'll have to monitor things.

I expect I won't time trial until June next year so it's probably not a big loss overall but I really struggle to do nothing.   At least the garage is really neat now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 17, 2018, 01:34:33 pm
Ouch. Sounds like it was expensive as well as time consuming, painful, and putting a dent in your riding plans.
Gotta ask (contractual obligation)- was the bike OK?  ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on October 17, 2018, 03:03:14 pm
Ouch. Sounds like it was expensive as well as time consuming, painful, and putting a dent in your riding plans.
Gotta ask (contractual obligation)- was the bike OK?  ;)

Front wheel slightly out of true.   Scraped bar tape, scrape on the side of the (new) B17.   Only finished putting this bike together the week before.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on October 25, 2018, 03:50:33 pm
I'm going to give Zwift another go. Trainer Roads is all well and good, but staring at numbers for an hour is really dull.

It'll soon be time to stir in some C2 time too. At the moment, I suspect my one-pack is too big for me to row effectively. I done got fat.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 25, 2018, 04:05:41 pm
We were down at the rowing club doing 3x10m:3r intervals last night. Supposed to be UT1 intensity (I think this could be considered roughly tempo or sweet-spot in cycling terms).

Heart rate for the same work is coming down nicely. One guy clearly struggles to limit his pace to keep to the heart rate zone; he hit 185bpm last night. That way lies burn-out.

I'd have rather we did 4x10m but was told no by our coach. Do another workout some other time if you want more volume.

I was supposed to gym this lunchtime but left my kit behind. So I'm going to have some time alone with TrainerRoad this evening. Plan says Eclipse but my legs probably will disagree given this has been a heavy week.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on October 25, 2018, 04:50:27 pm
I'm going to give Zwift another go. Trainer Roads is all well and good, but staring at numbers for an hour is really dull.

It'll soon be time to stir in some C2 time too. At the moment, I suspect my one-pack is too big for me to row effectively. I done got fat.
I think you can integrate the two, and certainly, once you've done a workout you can save it. I'm surprised that there's not a download site containing every TR workout imported in to zwift. I've kept all my workouts from when I subscribed to Todays Plan.

Sent from my Lenovo P2a42 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on October 25, 2018, 05:57:59 pm
It's just a little thing, but I've just found out that Trainerroad can now pull in data from Garmin Connect, so all my rides appear in it's analysis. Still have some without power data mind, but I can live with that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on October 25, 2018, 06:01:16 pm
It's just a little thing, but I've just found out that Trainerroad can now pull in data from Garmin Connect, so all my rides appear in it's analysis. Still have some without power data mind, but I can live with that.

I thought it could for a while but it may only be since Calendar came along.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 25, 2018, 06:10:19 pm
It’s been pulling in data for some time in anticipation of the calendar feature.

I wish they’d calculate TSS for rides with no power data.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on October 25, 2018, 08:09:09 pm
I am impressed by how easy it is to get the estimate.  Most of my non power data rides are commuting and i have enough training peaks detain the various routes I use that i can just get it to calculate it, but I agree it is a faff.

I think they have gone down the "we are a power company" just a little far and using HrTSS would be helpful.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on October 25, 2018, 08:57:52 pm
Had a look and there’s a Garmin IQ ‘app’ to calculate hrTSS.

Not sure if anyone has used it? If so, will it calculate hrTSS when no power meter is in use, but default to power based TSS when power data is available?

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 25, 2018, 10:40:22 pm
Carter tonight (steady 45m). Average HR 131 which is about as low as I've seen on this workout.

I feel a ramp test in my future.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 28, 2018, 01:56:52 pm
Ramp test today.  Sucked.
I did a ride with my daughter that took an hour and a half, but had only 45 minutes of actual riding. As a result I was freezing! I tried to get a bit warm and then get into the garage and do the Ramp test, but I never got going.  guess I should have done an extended warmup and not turned my fan on until I was actually hot, but I didn't realise how much it would affect my performance. I just didn't get going, I couldn't spin properly at all, and I bogged down a couple of times before finally quitting as I approached my limits.
The recommendation was for a 233FTP, but I'm gonna re-do it I think.
My pedals are left only at the moment - they ran out of batteries and then I damaged one of the caps that holds them in (if I switch the cap to the other side then that one works, so it's clearly the cap). A pair of new caps are on order - I'll do the ramp again when I have both pedals working (and my legs working). I should get an HR monitor as well (my Polar one has finally died).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/42339295-ramp-test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 30, 2018, 09:30:37 am
Only 1% improvement. Bah.

229 => 233. Only good news is that it's not a drop.

Perhaps not surprising - I really need to do more cardio.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on October 30, 2018, 09:39:27 am
That’s 2%.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 30, 2018, 10:26:55 am
TR rounded down maybe. It’s 1.7%
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 30, 2018, 01:19:21 pm
At least it's in an upward trajectory. ;)
Last year I was getting up when snow was on the ground to get in the garage and do my turbo session, but the cold this week has made it really hard to be motivated. I'm going to re-jig my calendar to do another ramp test tomorrow (with working battery caps) - I'm not looking forward to it!
Sunday might be my first ever cyclocross race (if I can work out the childcare for my daughter - she's racing at 9:30 and mine's at 11:30). Then I'm back on the TR routine until Christmas - hopefully that will get my FTP going in the right direction again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 30, 2018, 01:28:01 pm
I have the same result in October this year as I got in December last year. So I’m hoping a solid block of training will put me ahead by then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on October 30, 2018, 01:33:52 pm
I too need to do a ramp test, so I know roughly where to set the bar for an FTP test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 30, 2018, 03:19:34 pm
I have the same result in October this year as I got in December last year. So I’m hoping a solid block of training will put me ahead by then.
You've been doing it a while though, right?
I only started structured training last year, so I'm miles ahead of where I was then, but I'm quite far behind where I was in June.
I too need to do a ramp test, so I know roughly where to set the bar for an FTP test.
The TR ramp is supposed to be an FTP test. If you are on TR, why would you want to do 2?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on October 30, 2018, 04:06:36 pm
I'm really struggling to adhere to anything planned - wrote of most of last week but did go for a ride up a hill which resulted in a higher than ramp test FTP (by about 20W!) on teh Xert FTP estimator app.

If I CBA I'll try for the scheduled session tonight, but I am really not motivated at the moment!
200km at the weekend should help with this weeks TSS though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 30, 2018, 04:07:33 pm
I have the same result in October this year as I got in December last year. So I’m hoping a solid block of training will put me ahead by then.
You've been doing it a while though, right?
I only started structured training last year, so I'm miles ahead of where I was then, but I'm quite far behind where I was in June.

I've been using TR since 2015 but have had a number of breaks due to injury or illness and of course when spending a summer season racing in boats my FTP always seems to end up lower at the end of summer.

Last year I got my wrist injury early October and caught a heavy cold around the same time, and did not get rid of a subsequent cough until I'd been ill for 6 weeks and had a course if antibiotics - so my FTP was set down at 210W when I started training again at the end of October. So its 11% higher than 12 months ago.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on October 30, 2018, 04:08:10 pm
I'm really struggling to adhere to anything planned - wrote of most of last week but did go for a ride up a hill which resulted in a higher than ramp test FTP (by about 20W!) on teh Xert FTP estimator app.

If I CBA I'll try for the scheduled session tonight, but I am really not motivated at the moment!
200km at the weekend should help with this weeks TSS though.

I've estimated that 200km => 300TSS. We'll see!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on October 30, 2018, 05:05:14 pm
The TR ramp is supposed to be an FTP test. If you are on TR, why would you want to do 2?

Hmm... they may claim that, but to my mind it would only be an approximation. I was going to use the result of the ramp test to know better how to judge the pace on a 20 minute effort; given that I nearly always start too hard and blow up.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on October 30, 2018, 05:40:41 pm
I'm really struggling to adhere to anything planned - wrote of most of last week but did go for a ride up a hill which resulted in a higher than ramp test FTP (by about 20W!) on teh Xert FTP estimator app.

If I CBA I'll try for the scheduled session tonight, but I am really not motivated at the moment!
200km at the weekend should help with this weeks TSS though.

I've estimated that 200km => 300TSS. We'll see!

My template in TP for a 200km Audax is 450TSS (0.7IF) but it depends on the day, last one was 568TSS (217km, hilly and wet), and the dutch (flat) one before that was 240TSS (211km) - one prior to that was pretty bang on at 451TSS (213km, a bit of lumpy Suffolk and some bridleways included)...  quite a spread and of course this all depends on getting the FTP bit right too!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on October 31, 2018, 09:03:46 am
Better Ramp Test today.
It was freezing again (I rode at 6am in the garage - the car on the drive was registering -1 at 7am), but I didn't turn my fan on at all.  Started off wearing a hat, gloves, jacket, long sleeve jersey and short sleeve jersey (and shorts obv). Finished wearing just the gloves, ss jersey (undone) and shorts and sweat dripping off my nose! I focussed on spinning more early in the warm up and the whole thing just felt like I could get it going properly.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/42528387-ramp-test

The big gap where I have stopped pedalling but the ramp is still going is because I was pressing the wrong button when it asked if I wanted to end the test!  :-[
Suggested of 244, up from 240 (with Sunday's effort being 233). Happier with that too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 01, 2018, 08:53:52 pm
Quick question for those of you using turbos - do you use a trainer tyre or just your normal road tyre? If the latter, does it wear them prematurely or are they OK?

Just wondering as swapping cassette between wheels to ride outside seems a bit of a faff.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 01, 2018, 09:44:23 pm
I use the normal road tyre, but then it's not an expensive one (Continental sport). If my tyre was £££ I'd probably switch to a cheap one for turboing - it's definitely squared off a bit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 01, 2018, 10:13:59 pm
I have a road tyre on mine - but I'm not convinced it's a good solution; I think I may try a trainer tyre.

We do have some wheel slip from time to time - fboab notices it more than I do; I updated the firmware today, maybe that'll help.

Direct Drive is the way forward.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 02, 2018, 06:13:53 am
I previously used a couple of Conti Home Trainers.  I found they developed very small cracks over the surface, although it didn’t seem to effect performance.  I find the current turbo slips very slightly as you get up to speed but is then fine.

I have just switched to a Vitoria Zaffiro, but haven’t tested it yet.  It is very red, though, which is a bit of an assault on the senses.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 02, 2018, 03:40:43 pm
First ever Zwift race today. Well... I wasn't last at least.  ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 02, 2018, 07:09:13 pm
Ebbets today - was surprisingly good. I think that sort of workout suits me.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/42669730-ebbetts

Tyre was spinning a little at the point where I'm going from 200 to 400W, but otherwise fine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 02, 2018, 07:13:04 pm
New plan starts Monday.   Waiting to receive it over the weekend.

I’ll be 100% turbo for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 02, 2018, 07:46:40 pm
still living the life of excuses - two weeks ago came down with minor cold, last week slipped on wet leaves and bashed my knee..

one day!

(although still doing my longish weekly rides every weekend so not feeling too guilty)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 03, 2018, 01:04:55 pm
Dug out an old 90min workout.  I had the resistance a notch too high to start off with but settled in during the warm up.  The new race position is comfortable and I voluntarily added an extra 30 mins.   All seems OK which is a good job as I foresee a lot of hours on there for the next couple of months.

Bit galling that it’s sunny outside, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 05, 2018, 08:28:37 pm
i've lost my capacity for suffering for some reason, aborted the ramp test at 175bpm (should have reached 188). i'll be doing the workouts at a guessed ftp level and take it from there as cba to do the test once again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 05, 2018, 11:10:20 pm
i've lost my capacity for suffering for some reason, aborted the ramp test at 175bpm (should have reached 188). i'll be doing the workouts at a guessed ftp level and take it from there as cba to do the test once again.

Could be fatigue meaning you under-performed.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 05, 2018, 11:10:45 pm
Hunter - 4 today. Went well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 05, 2018, 11:31:28 pm
i've lost my capacity for suffering for some reason, aborted the ramp test at 175bpm (should have reached 188). i'll be doing the workouts at a guessed ftp level and take it from there as cba to do the test once again.

Could be fatigue meaning you under-performed.

that's a possibility as i've done a fairly easy 200k over the weekend. my legs weren't sore today, so i thought it's a good day for a test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on November 06, 2018, 08:16:10 am
How much does air temperature affect heart rate? I hit 208 BPM twice in the summer but haven’t come close since despite similar efforts on the road.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 06, 2018, 08:22:18 am
How much does air temperature affect heart rate? I hit 208 BPM twice in the summer but haven’t come close since despite similar efforts on the road.

Not particularly scientific, but lots.   Getting my HR up in a cold garage in Winter is really difficult.   In the Summer with the doors open and a fan on it's hard to keep a lid on it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 06, 2018, 08:26:18 am
How much does air temperature affect heart rate? I hit 208 BPM twice in the summer but haven’t come close since despite similar efforts on the road.

Not particularly scientific, but lots.   Getting my HR up in a cold garage in Winter is really difficult.   In the Summer with the doors open and a fan on it's hard to keep a lid on it.
Not only that, but once it's up, it doesn't come down again. One reason we aborted a 1000 in France a couple of years ago was because it was 38c and my HR would go up on the climbs, but not recover properly on the descents, so it was basically red lined all the time.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 06, 2018, 08:32:50 am
i can only train indoors (at a right intensity) during the cool season otherwise hr goes up too much. my ideal training temperature is around 18'c combined with a floor fan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 06, 2018, 09:00:02 am
I really struggle to get going if I'm too cold.  When it's warm I put the fan on at the start or after the warmup, but I suffered massively on the ramp test when I did that the other day, even with a load of clothing on! It was much better when I didn't turn the fan on at all! Likewise, since then I've done the warmup and the first interval block before turning the fan on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 06, 2018, 01:25:02 pm
I got the new Wahoo Kickr Headwind fan.

So now the fan runs slowly when I'm warming up, and when it gets tough, the fan automatically blasts me with air.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 06, 2018, 05:22:10 pm
That thing is seriously expensive though isn't it?
I have a dumb trainer - it's not going to do much with one of them. I should get a second fan, stick them both on low power and then use remove mains switches to turn them on and off. That would probably cost 50 quid (and mean that in the summer I can actually keep cool ish).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 06, 2018, 05:28:53 pm
That thing is seriously expensive though isn't it?

Quite! If you want to see just how far you can take this indoor cycling malarky though, check out Shane Miller - GPLama (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbcwZ8hm18GK6on_S_CgmFA) on You Tube.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 06, 2018, 05:49:05 pm
So, what trainers etc are people using.

I've got a Tacx Bushido and run TrainerRoad on my laptop. All can run without electricity in the shed, but I need the extension for the £30 4 speed fan.

I do fancy a direct drive trainer and tele though - only if the bonus permits...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on November 06, 2018, 06:09:45 pm
I'm still on an original version kickr - did ponder buying the latest version and selling this one as then I could use my through axle bike on it if I needed to (setting up ride position seems about the only main advantage there )
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on November 06, 2018, 06:39:58 pm
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 06, 2018, 07:48:41 pm
I've got a Tacx Booster. It's wheel on, but it deals with my through axle bike fine, and I don't see any need to change really. I run TR on my phone, using an elastic band to hold it to the stem/GPS mount.
I fancy getting some rollers and see if I can ride my fixie on them (and maybe my daughter too :) ).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on November 06, 2018, 07:57:55 pm
I've got a Tacx "Ironman" - actually a Genius with another name. I'm very likely to swap out soon for a Direct Drive if anyone wants to make an offer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on November 06, 2018, 09:35:18 pm
Having swapped from a vortex to a neo, I'd say direct drive is a must for me - I don't have boab's torque, but I still got occasional slippage. The main thing is the silence.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 06, 2018, 10:44:33 pm
That thing is seriously expensive though isn't it?
I have a dumb trainer - it's not going to do much with one of them. I should get a second fan, stick them both on low power and then use remove mains switches to turn them on and off. That would probably cost 50 quid (and mean that in the summer I can actually keep cool ish).

It doesn’t need a smart trainer. I connect my heart rate belt to it and fan speed is controlled from there.

Donated my old fan to the rowing club.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 06, 2018, 10:46:58 pm
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.

I tried out a Direto at an open evening at an LBS. It had a good feel, seemed to do the job.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 06, 2018, 10:47:49 pm
I had a v1 Kickr which I sold last year and bought a Neo as retail therapy when I had my wrist injury keeping me out of rowing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on November 06, 2018, 11:59:14 pm
I know some of the latest trainers are silent, but how much vibration do they transmit through the floor?

I live in a first floor flat and I'd love to be able to train indoors, I just don't want to annoy the downstairs neighbours. There's only so much that various bits of matting would help blot out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 07, 2018, 12:28:14 am
there is noise and vibration even with the quiet trainers (neo etc) and the neighbours will definitely hear that. will they get annoyed about some noise every now and then?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Peat on November 07, 2018, 08:45:50 am
I had a quick go on a Tacx Neo and was suprised at how loud it was. Certainly much louder than my Elite elastogel thingy (non-smart). The loudest part of my setup is changing gear.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 07, 2018, 09:12:55 am
With the fan on facing up at me but on the tribars I'm finding that my arms block the airflow to my face.   I'm now dripping sweat on the splint that's holding my wrist in place so it's going to end up minging.   Little things, but at least I can train.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 07, 2018, 09:22:39 am
I did a VO2 workout this morning.  Was pretty solid, though now (even 2 hours later) I'm aware I've been breathing hard and my ribcage is feeling it!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/42990974-huffaker

I much prefer Sweet Spot Base 2 - it's got loads more interesting workouts, and it has stuff that goes above FTP. I find Sweet Spot Base 1 so dull...

With the fan on facing up at me but on the tribars I'm finding that my arms block the airflow to my face.   I'm now dripping sweat on the splint that's holding my wrist in place so it's going to end up minging.   Little things, but at least I can train.
Maybe it's worth putting an arm warmer on that arm? It won't affect your training, but it might mop up some of the sweat and make the splint a little more pleasant.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on November 07, 2018, 09:41:48 am
there is noise and vibration even with the quiet trainers (neo etc) and the neighbours will definitely hear that. will they get annoyed about some noise every now and then?

I'd rather not pay £x00 on a trainer and then find out the vibration/noise is too much.

Our kitchen is above theirs and they claim not to hear our dishwasher or washing-machine. Might have to see if someone locally has one I can borrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: stevie63 on November 07, 2018, 11:37:44 am
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
What about the outgoing Flux then? Available for £450 and all the issues they had with the early models seem to be long since resolved.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on November 07, 2018, 12:06:28 pm
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
What about the outgoing Flux then? Available for £450 and all the issues they had with the early models seem to be long since resolved.
I couldn't see anywhere that actually had stock?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on November 07, 2018, 12:37:38 pm
With the fan on facing up at me but on the tribars I'm finding that my arms block the airflow to my face.   I'm now dripping sweat on the splint that's holding my wrist in place so it's going to end up minging.   Little things, but at least I can train.

when i was training with a cast on my wrist/hand I would pour water on the shoulder and allow it to run off at the elbow to reduce "sweat contamination", plus have the fan on that side.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on November 07, 2018, 12:43:37 pm
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.

I tried out a Direto at an open evening at an LBS. It had a good feel, seemed to do the job.

I have had a Direto for a year now, very pleased with it. According to DC Rainmaker though, the new Wahoo Kickr Core is well worth a look, cheap(ish) and silent...https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/11/trainer-buyers-recommendations-guide.html (https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/11/trainer-buyers-recommendations-guide.html)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: stevie63 on November 08, 2018, 12:37:17 am
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
What about the outgoing Flux then? Available for £450 and all the issues they had with the early models seem to be long since resolved.
I couldn't see anywhere that actually had stock?
I’ve just checked and Halfords have stock
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/trainers/tacx-flux-smart-trainer (https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/trainers/tacx-flux-smart-trainer)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on November 08, 2018, 10:59:33 am
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
What about the outgoing Flux then? Available for £450 and all the issues they had with the early models seem to be long since resolved.
I couldn't see anywhere that actually had stock?
I’ve just checked and Halfords have stock
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/trainers/tacx-flux-smart-trainer (https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/trainers/tacx-flux-smart-trainer)

Halfords' idea of 'in stock' doesn't always correlate with mine- in that it can be imaginary. I don't trust this, given that no other UK retailer has any.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 09, 2018, 02:04:50 pm
I love it when I have a day off and can ride at a sane time of the day. :)
Happy with this one - while it gives me >19 minutes at threshold and the rest of the half hours worth of intervals at sweet spot, it was right at the top end of sweet spot for the most part.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43172992-donner
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 11, 2018, 05:42:43 pm
Finally back on the straight and narrow - I completed 3 rides this week properly for the first time in ages. 45 minute of Tempo/SweetSpot/Threshold
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43315939-clark

I still don't like sweet spot.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 11, 2018, 07:34:36 pm
1st week done. No road work but just under 10hrs on the turbo.

I can work properly with my problem wrist resting on the extension.   I do have a bit of a worry that the lack of road miles might cause me an issue in the Spring so I will need to revisit my goals in the New Year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 11, 2018, 07:40:41 pm
after spending hour and a half in tt position and looking up at the screen i've noticed four deep horizontal wrinkles on my forehead - looked instantly ten years older! :D if i keep doing those they'll become permanent. hmm.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 11, 2018, 07:47:49 pm
after spending hour and a half in tt position and looking up at the screen i've noticed four deep horizontal wrinkles on my forehead - looked instantly ten years older! :D if i keep doing those they'll become permanent. hmm.

Put the screen on the floor...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on November 12, 2018, 12:54:31 pm
I had a quick go on a Tacx Neo and was suprised at how loud it was. Certainly much louder than my Elite elastogel thingy (non-smart). The loudest part of my setup is changing gear.

Maybe a dodgy one? The FB neo forum is full of people with problems. Mine has done 18,000km on Zwift, and other than being a bit grimy, it's perfect. The only noise is from changing gears, and I don't get vibration through the floor.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 12, 2018, 04:24:06 pm
I had a quick go on a Tacx Neo and was suprised at how loud it was. Certainly much louder than my Elite elastogel thingy (non-smart). The loudest part of my setup is changing gear.

Maybe a dodgy one? The FB neo forum is full of people with problems. Mine has done 18,000km on Zwift, and other than being a bit grimy, it's perfect. The only noise is from changing gears, and I don't get vibration through the floor.

Ditto. I can hear television at the same volume as when not pedalling.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: phantasmagoriana on November 12, 2018, 04:37:16 pm
I had a quick go on a Tacx Neo and was suprised at how loud it was. Certainly much louder than my Elite elastogel thingy (non-smart). The loudest part of my setup is changing gear.

Maybe a dodgy one? The FB neo forum is full of people with problems. Mine has done 18,000km on Zwift, and other than being a bit grimy, it's perfect. The only noise is from changing gears, and I don't get vibration through the floor.

Ditto. I can hear television at the same volume as when not pedalling.

Mine's quiet too but that might be because I never use the poor thing. I'm in a second floor flat (converted house, wooden floors, so not exactly soundproof) and it's certainly quieter than the washing machine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 13, 2018, 09:02:17 am
Early morning VO2 went surprisingly well. I had to skip some of the rest periods because I was getting cold (and also because I was running out of time). I still completed the work intervals though. :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43431993-mills
Legs are sore now though!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 13, 2018, 10:51:50 pm
So, following my layoff xeplained elsewhere, I've done two rides on the turbo.

Sat evening I did half an hour at an average of 207 watts and tonight just over an hour at 200 watts. Both riding the singlespeed on my Tacx Bushido Smart and using the Tacx software and the flat free ride. The climb at the end was hard - I was reduced to 38rpm and still maing 220 odd watts, but it was hard to stop the wheel slipping. The ride is here

https://www.strava.com/activities/1963174504 (https://www.strava.com/activities/1963174504)

Once I've got myself back to a regular habit, I think I'll mix and match TR and the Tacx videos. I'm also planning on swapping the Bushido for a direct drive trainer in a few weeks (if anyone wants a Bushido?)

It's nice to be riding again and, given how much harder I can work on the turbo, it may get a fair bit of use as I try to build fitness and power again. Riding outside I just don't sustain the same sort of heart rate I get running.The turbo is a bit closer.

FWIW, I haven't done an FTP test, but Garmin currently estimates that at between 230 and 240 watts and my VO2 max at 45 (down by over 10% in 3 months). It'll be interesting to see if I can improve the numbers by the spring.

Mike

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 13, 2018, 11:18:07 pm
Actually, the Bushido may be available sooner if Tacx do what they've promised on shipping
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 14, 2018, 01:32:29 pm
Actually, the Bushido may be available sooner if Tacx do what they've promised on shipping
I PMed you about this.

Your numbers sound good for someone who's had such a rough year and has a bad knee.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 15, 2018, 09:57:37 am
Woke up with my legs (primarily my quads) still feeling a bit sore from Tuesday, but wanted to keep the consistency so did the workout anyway.  I skipped part of the last interval as my right knee started hurting - I think it was probably just tiredness meaning my VMO wasn't firing as well. Massively tight hamstrings now though.
I've done Weds-Fri-Sun 3 weeks in a row and now I'm back on Tues-Thurs-Sat. If I can keep this up for 2 more weeks then I can start December with a rest week and hopefully see another FTP rise before I start doing some of the build plans.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on November 15, 2018, 03:16:55 pm
Slowly dragging myself back up to 50CTL - at 45.7 today. I'm managing to average ~380TSS a week, on roughly 5 1/2 hours a week of exercise, split pretty equally between short, horrible stuff on Zwift, and a mix of short, horrible runs, and 1 lovely longer run. Did a hilly trail run of 16.4km at 5:32 pace this morning, not thinking about speed, and found the last time I ran it 6 weeks ago, I was at 5.45 pace, so it seems to be working. Weight is down to 74.2 (bmi 20.8 ). Taking my best 20m from the last 5 weeks (235w - not done an FTP test), I'm at 3.01 w/kg. Feels like I'm making progress, despite work being horrific.

I got a place on the Gindleford Gallop (infamously muddy 33km trail run) last night. Means I need to up my time running on trails ready for March.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 15, 2018, 03:25:43 pm
I'm on 50 CTL now.

I've got quite a variety in there at present with the rowing and associated weight training. So my FTP is lower than one would expect from such a CTL value.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 18, 2018, 12:14:17 pm
I did Saturday's workout today, and felt good while doing it, but cut the last set short because of my right VMO (same as Thursday).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43788947-palisade

I think I need to stretch more, but maybe also do some single leg squats. My right leg is definitely weaker than my left (lots of knee issues in the past), and damaging my right foot this summer has only worsened that. The thing is that my left is solid, and the CV ability is coming back, so that encourages me to push further and harder than my right can really handle. I should probably record the ride on my headunit as well - then I would be able to look at the right/left balance (though I'm not sure what I would do with that data!).

How do you guys find your fitness tracks with your CTL? I'm only doing the low volume TR stuff, so my weekly TSS peaks around 300, and I've not been over 350 since I got my power meter. The max 6 week CTL I've had in that time has been 37. Is that going to put a ceiling on my power?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on November 18, 2018, 08:17:43 pm
Fingers crossed, in a week's time I recommence TR sweet spot base, beginning a 7 month programme I've mapped out to prepare me for a Channel to Med ride across France next summer...

"Fingers crossed" because I've been struggling to return to exercise following some surgery last summer: several prior attempts at steadily increasing the exercise load have had to be abandoned due to it eventually not feeling very good at all. This time I've taken it super steady, a very slow trajectory for raising workload, and I'm optimistic I'm "mended" and will be fine to proceed. Should find out soon!

I posted earlier in the year about seeing if I could get to 4w/kg - the idea was to buy myself a really fancy bike if I managed to hit the target. I've still got the aspiration but have changed the reward, giving myself some nice bike trips instead, with the C2M being taken as an advance payment  ;)

The notional "goal" then is to reach 4w/kg by September '19. The last test I did was mid-July at 3.4 w/kg. Based on how I was riding then I was probably around the fittest I've been, so bridging the gap to 4.0, if I manage it, will not be easy and I won't really be disappointed if I don't manage it. It's quite possible life (particularly health) may get in the way, but I'll give it a whirl and see what happens.

I hadn't expected to be much interested in TR's calendar, but already I'm finding it invaluable. A plan's in place, and all I have to do is keep pressing really hard on the pedals when I'm told to and to rest when I'm told to. Easy  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 19, 2018, 08:00:40 pm
Entering week 3.  Week 1 was 9h45 and week 2 10hrs.   All turbo and in race position.

I’m missing the outdoors quite a lot.   The morning walk to the station doesn’t quite cut it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 19, 2018, 08:52:01 pm
Entering week 3.  Week 1 was 9h45 and week 2 10hrs.   All turbo and in race position.

I’m missing the outdoors quite a lot.   The morning walk to the station doesn’t quite cut it.

why not ride outside to clear the head (once a week would do)?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on November 19, 2018, 08:53:28 pm
Entering week 3.  Week 1 was 9h45 and week 2 10hrs.   All turbo and in race position.

I’m missing the outdoors quite a lot.   The morning walk to the station doesn’t quite cut it.

why not ride outside to clear the head (once a week would do)?

Broken hand.  I have a cast on.  (Sorry might not have mentioned it in this thread)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on November 19, 2018, 09:23:36 pm
i see, not much you can do then.. gws rob
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 20, 2018, 08:19:20 pm
Oof. VO2 max, followed by 6 hours of sitting in cramped seats (coach and performance) with 7000 steps thrown in between. My knee has been happier.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43907908-spencer
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 20, 2018, 10:29:09 pm
Had a few indoor rides over the last week and a half - just been riding the Tacx videos. I'll have to get to TR again soon, as it does feel like I'm getting used to riding indoors a bit now.

Set up the new direct drive turbo tonight, so have working tech in the shed and, I must admit, it was a nicer feeling to ride the turbo than head out into the cold wet evening here!

Also, I'd forgotten how much work you can do on the turbo, as there's no reason to stop pedalling...

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 21, 2018, 12:05:19 am
Did 75m endurance in TrainerRoad tonight. These endurance level rides are harder than you might think - that constant pressure on the pedals you get from working on a smart trainer makes it more effective than a typical outdoor ride.

Heart rate was a bit high - expect that was because I was watching Scotland v Israel. Missed James Forrest's hat-trick because I ended the workout and moved to the living room at just the wrong time.

This week is about recovery - going to do only endurance level stuff this week, and then back on it next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Peat on November 22, 2018, 10:31:13 am
Did this GCN workout the other night: https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/video/sweet-spot-intervals-indoor-training-on-the-passo-giau

Really effective! The same interval 8 times, feels easy to start with but by rep 7 you're in trouble.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on November 22, 2018, 10:45:45 am
https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/zwift-academy-2018/semi-finals-2-capacity-into-sweet-spot/

Did this on Zwift night before last. What the graphic doesn't show is that it's not ramp ups after the Z5 effort - it's one ramp up 2x Z5 followed by ramp down. And they save the worst for last. Felt easy to begin with - was so glad I didn't set it to 105% of my FTP in the companion app by the end.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on November 22, 2018, 12:21:09 pm
Recently been doing the "hour of power" interval session I picked up on BikeRadar many years ago, which I've developed into:

5 min warmup
90s @ 90%FTP followed by 30s @ 120%FTP  x 30  (60mins)
5 mins cooldown

It can be tweaked by increasing the hard intervals to 125-30%FTP and lowering the recovery intensity, or increasing the hard intervals to 20s @ 130%FTP-maximal and increasing the length of the recovery intervals to 120-150s.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 22, 2018, 01:01:31 pm
Recently been doing the "hour of power" interval session I picked up on BikeRadar many years ago, which I've developed into:

5 min warmup
90s @ 90%FTP followed by 30s @ 120%FTP  x 30  (60mins)
5 mins cooldown

It can be tweaked by increasing the hard intervals to 125-30%FTP and lowering the recovery intensity, or increasing the hard intervals to 20s @ 130%FTP-maximal and increasing the length of the recovery intervals to 120-150s.
Wow.  You do an hour where you do 90s at 90% power, then 30s at 120%, and then repeat? No gaps where you are under 90%? There are a couple of TR workouts that have threshold and VO2 Max stuff mixed up like that, but they tend ot have significant rest periods built in.  Can you really sustain that for an hour (and if so, are you sure your FTP is accurate)?

Eg from my recent TR back catalogue: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson
 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on November 22, 2018, 01:18:24 pm
Wow.  You do an hour where you do 90s at 90% power, then 30s at 120%, and then repeat? No gaps where you are under 90%? There are a couple of TR workouts that have threshold and VO2 Max stuff mixed up like that, but they tend ot have significant rest periods built in.  Can you really sustain that for an hour (and if so, are you sure your FTP is accurate)?

Eg from my recent TR back catalogue: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson

As the hour progresses it's increasingly hard to maintain 90% in the 90s intervals but that's the aim.  In reality it eventually drops to 80/85% for a few seconds after the 30s bursts and it takes real effort and concentration to get back to 90%.

The whole 60m session average is effectively at threshold effort and very close to FTP. 

I'm as sure as I can be about my FTP using the tools at my disposal i.e. Watt-type bike at the gym - I have the IQ2 power meters on order so will hopefully be able to get more accurate info. HR info is useless for this kind of session as the delay gives no helpful real-time info.

BTW can't access your TrainerRoad links.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 22, 2018, 01:33:05 pm
I may venture a tentative half hour on the turbo later. Starting week 3 of The Lurgy From Hell; I've coughed enough to damage my ribs, so anything I do will be Zone 0.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 22, 2018, 01:39:55 pm
Wow.  You do an hour where you do 90s at 90% power, then 30s at 120%, and then repeat? No gaps where you are under 90%? There are a couple of TR workouts that have threshold and VO2 Max stuff mixed up like that, but they tend ot have significant rest periods built in.  Can you really sustain that for an hour (and if so, are you sure your FTP is accurate)?

Eg from my recent TR back catalogue: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson

As the hour progresses it's increasingly hard to maintain 90% in the 90s intervals but that's the aim.  In reality it eventually drops to 80/85% for a few seconds after the 30s bursts and it takes real effort and concentration to get back to 90%.

The whole 60m session average is effectively at threshold effort and very close to FTP. 

I'm as sure as I can be about my FTP using the tools at my disposal i.e. Watt-type bike at the gym - I have the IQ2 power meters on order so will hopefully be able to get more accurate info. HR info is useless for this kind of session as the delay gives no helpful real-time info.

BTW can't access your TrainerRoad links.

That sounds really hard... Wattbike are reputed to be accurate, and if you're using the same one then it makes no odds. I was only asking because I've heard of people guestimating it!
Does this link work?
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson#.W_aoa9FhxuA.link
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on November 22, 2018, 02:04:20 pm

That sounds really hard... Wattbike are reputed to be accurate, and if you're using the same one then it makes no odds. I was only asking because I've heard of people guestimating it!
Does this link work?
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson#.W_aoa9FhxuA.link

It's wanting credit card details to sign up - can't see a free view-only option.

Yes, it's really hard session!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 22, 2018, 03:03:37 pm

That sounds really hard... Wattbike are reputed to be accurate, and if you're using the same one then it makes no odds. I was only asking because I've heard of people guestimating it!
Does this link work?
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson#.W_aoa9FhxuA.link

It's wanting credit card details to sign up - can't see a free view-only option.

That's really annoying - I've clicked the button to make my workouts public. Maybe you need a TR account to see even public workouts?  That's odd.
It's synced to Strava, so you've got to be able to see this: https://www.strava.com/activities/1965509945
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on November 22, 2018, 04:17:25 pm
That's really annoying - I've clicked the button to make my workouts public. Maybe you need a TR account to see even public workouts?

Appears to be the case.

It's synced to Strava, so you've got to be able to see this: https://www.strava.com/activities/1965509945

Yes, that works if signed in to Strava. Maximum cadence 154 - blimey!  I do well to get above 120.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 22, 2018, 05:51:28 pm
Yes, that works if signed in to Strava. Maximum cadence 154 - blimey!  I do well to get above 120.

 :o

My turbo's on a mat, but I'm pretty sure I'd be bouncing around the room like a badly loaded washing-machine if I tried that!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on November 22, 2018, 08:48:05 pm
For really short VO2 Max or anerobic, I just spin up in the gear I'm in. I couldn't hold it for very long (unless on a big hill on my fix!).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on November 22, 2018, 09:09:05 pm
I had a look back and I hit 138rpm on that workout earlier this year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 24, 2018, 11:34:41 pm
I did Tacx’s Wessex Tour today, a nice hilly video ride around Dorset. It proved both interesting and positive from an equipment perspective. The ride itself was just under 1.25 hours averaging about 200 watts, but with more variation - like the real world - than the super flat ride I’d been doing.

Having committed to riding the turbo much much more and using it to actually build fitness I’ve just swapped the Bushido for a new Neo direct from Tacx. This is, so far, a bit quieter than the Bushido, will work with or without being plugged in and provides better roadlike feel. The latter due to the simulated inertia that it models based on mass, aero drag and other rolling resistance.

I was a bit concerned my old laptop might struggle with the video software (trainerroad does seem that resource intensive) but it copes absolutely fine. The laptop was species for use with Lightroom a few years ago with an i7 3740qm at 2.7GHz, 3 SSDs, 32Gb of ram and an Nvidia K2000m GPU. The CPU usage was low throughout and the GPU was at 80% to 85% decoding variable frame rate 720p and upscaling to feed a tv at 4K and 60Hz. I had thought the hardware would be too old, and particularly in a laptop clock limited. However it all worked well.

Next to decide if I want to use trainerroad for intervals or the Tacx software.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 25, 2018, 07:25:32 am
I have not used the Tacx software for a number of years but it was generally incredibly flaky. The forums were full of complaints about it not working.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 25, 2018, 11:39:16 am
I have not used the Tacx software for a number of years but it was generally incredibly flaky. The forums were full of complaints about it not working.

I think they’ve made a real effort with the new desktop application. Runs fine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 28, 2018, 09:04:13 pm
Cheeky little ramp test to further suppress my ftp estimate followed by an hour at endurance pace on a flat Tacx video course around Amsterdam.

It has to be said that having had this year basically off the bike and not even running for 3 months has left me with a lot to do.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 29, 2018, 11:37:30 pm
Tonight I visited Italy, virtually. Madonna del Ghisallo courtesy of Tacx.

16 miles, 2,700ft or climb almost all in the last 6 miles. New ftp estimate based on best 20 minutes output on the climb. Only 17 watts better than last night but every watt counts:) 128tss in 70 minutes😮

Day off tomorrow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on November 30, 2018, 08:27:34 am
Tonight I visited Italy, virtually. Madonna del Ghisallo courtesy of Tacx.

16 miles, 2,700ft or climb almost all in the last 6 miles. New ftp estimate based on best 20 minutes output on the climb. Only 17 watts better than last night but every watt counts:) 128tss in 70 minutes😮

Day off tomorrow

128TSS in 70' would imply your FTP estimate is too low.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 30, 2018, 09:05:36 am
Tonight I visited Italy, virtually. Madonna del Ghisallo courtesy of Tacx.

16 miles, 2,700ft or climb almost all in the last 6 miles. New ftp estimate based on best 20 minutes output on the climb. Only 17 watts better than last night but every watt counts:) 128tss in 70 minutes😮

Day off tomorrow

128TSS in 70' would imply your FTP estimate is too low.

Yes, actually checking back it was 75, but that included some cool down and warm up. It’s not clear whether the gas score is based on the old or new ftp estimate, but Garmin suggests the new estimate has been used. Still I’m happy to have low rather than high estimate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 30, 2018, 11:05:08 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on November 30, 2018, 11:38:28 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on November 30, 2018, 11:45:01 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!

Huh! I wish  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 01, 2018, 02:52:18 pm
Entering week 3.  Week 1 was 9h45 and week 2 10hrs.   All turbo and in race position.

I’m missing the outdoors quite a lot.   The morning walk to the station doesn’t quite cut it.

Nearly finished week 4.   Weeks 5 and 6 will be similar.   There’s a chance I’ll be back on the road just before Christmas.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 02, 2018, 01:29:03 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!

Huh! I wish  :facepalm:

Is this a real drop in FTW, or a difference between trainers? I reckon my KickR over-read by about 15-20W, sadly.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 02, 2018, 03:57:37 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!

Huh! I wish  :facepalm:

Is this a real drop in FTW, or a difference between trainers? I reckon my KickR over-read by about 15-20W, sadly.
I doubt it's real - you can't really compare figures between wheel on and wheel off trainers, so I suspect the old trainer was over stating it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 02, 2018, 05:23:23 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!

Huh! I wish  :facepalm:

Is this a real drop in FTW, or a difference between trainers? I reckon my KickR over-read by about 15-20W, sadly.
I doubt it's real - you can't really compare figures between wheel on and wheel off trainers, so I suspect the old trainer was over stating it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Yes, every meter measures differently. Last night my Garmin watch connected to the stages power meter and the laptop to the Neo. Average power on the laptop 207 watts vs 210 on Garmin. Not very different, and you could say that 3 watts would be drivetrain loss, but I bet a different stages unit would give a different answer...

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 03, 2018, 10:18:00 am
Most power meter companies only state a 1-2% accuracy.  Same with trainers (even direct drive ones). So a few W here or there is within the error bar for the trainer or the power meter or both.
When I went from "Virtual Power" (calculated from a speed/resistance graph) to measured power from my pedals, I jumped about 15W (in the good direction!). I reckon about half of it is drivetrain, and half just the inaccuracies in "Virtual Power". I saw somewhere a post about "Zwift doping", how you do the rolldown test with your tyre really flat, and then pump it up before you ride, so you show more power in the race than you are putting out! That seems just sneaky!

I rode yesterday for the first time in almost 2 weeks due to a rotten cold.  Mary Austin was not the ride to choose! Strava seems to do some sort of interpolation as well - I skipped a bit of the ride (as you can see from the picture) and Strava has just joined the dots.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1996349626
Still, hopefully I can get going again properly tomorrow - I'll probably turn it down a few percent to give myself a chance of completing it as I recover from the lurgy.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 03, 2018, 10:32:15 am
It's taken me the best part of a month to get back into it after a cold/cough/post-viral state.

I'm having much more fun with Zwift this time around. Better PC, better trainer, slightly different goals - just seems to work better for me this time. I'm really quite enjoying the PACK social rides.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 03, 2018, 01:02:04 pm
I've been struggling to get cycling workouts in with the rowing training taking a lot of time and energy. Deadlifts on Thursday with my PT - my hamstrings are still sore today.

However with no rowing training on Saturday as I was coxing, I had a go at Hunter - 2 and it went ok. Had to extend a couple of the breaks in the final interval a bit to keep it going but survived all the intervals intact.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/44804431-hunter-2

Ramp test penciled in for tomorrow to see how I'm doing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 03, 2018, 01:08:43 pm
I would hate that workout.  Two hours on a trainer, with over 1 hour spent in the sweetspot/tempo zone? Ouch.
Good luck with the ramp test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 03, 2018, 08:38:18 pm
I did a couple of trainer rides at the weekend:

Saturday I rode stage 1 of the Eroixa videos from Tacx, just over an hour with several punchy climbs.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1995026246 (https://www.strava.com/activities/1995026246)

Then the first part of a Tacx vo2 workout, cut short as it was turned 9 and the family needed to eat:)

https://www.strava.com/activities/1997282281 (https://www.strava.com/activities/1997282281)


I’m really enjoying the Tacx software - much more my thing than Zwift - and the collection of video rides and workouts seems sufficient to replace TR as well as provide nice sunny scenery on a winter’s evening.

More later

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 03, 2018, 10:28:46 pm
Mike you might like some of the videos on Bigringvr. Still on free beta but an impressive range of climbs and rides. I did  an hour on the lower slopes of mont. entourage tonight and had a great time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 03, 2018, 11:09:48 pm
Mike you might like some of the videos on Bigringvr. Still on free beta but an impressive range of climbs and rides. I did  an hour on the lower slopes of mont. entourage tonight and had a great time.

Hi Chris

Hope you’re well?

I’d forgotten BRVRtm - looks like it’s now off beta and they’re charging. Not excessive, but another package!

I might have a go with the trial though, just to see how they compare. One positive with Tacx is the availability of workouts too, although I think it includes theirs and everyone on the system whose made their own up too.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on December 04, 2018, 07:32:26 am
Mike
I am well thank you.  I must still be in their beta group as I am not paying yet!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 04, 2018, 09:16:19 am
I got up early to do my ride, and then TR wouldn't pair with my pedals. It (eventually) paired with my new Tickr heart rate strap, but point blank refused to see the pedals.
The strange bit is that the phone could find the pedals (available on the bluetooth pairing screen), so I don't know what's going on there. I'm gonna try again tomorrow, but not connect the HR strap until the pedals are paired.
The help link in the TR app said that sometimes bluetooth can only pair to one device at a time, but I had 3 going for much of the summer (pedals, speed sensor, HR strap), so I'm not sure I believe that.  I'll be really irritated if it's a new restriction. Will have to see how it works tomorrow...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 04, 2018, 09:55:21 pm
+3W to 236W.

Increases are slow at present.

However I have a new all-time max HR of 196 and a new all-time 1-minute peak of 195 HR.

220 - age, my arse.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 04, 2018, 11:54:14 pm
+3W to 236W.

Increases are slow at present.

However I have a new all-time max HR of 196 and a new all-time 1-minute peak of 195 HR.

220 - age, my arse.

Been a long time since we’ve saw 190+, or even 180. +!

Hey ho, keep up the good work
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 05, 2018, 08:58:07 am
220 - age, my arse.

Exactly.   I managed 205 on a ramp test when I was *cough* a little over 40.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Scrantaj on December 05, 2018, 09:02:39 am
Apologies if this isnt the place to ask.

Getting back into training mode after damaging myself on the National 24 in July.  Currently have a Tacx Vortex Smart that I've been using for a couple of years and it's been fine but starting to show it's age and am aiming to upgrade to a direct drive trainer.

Looking at either a Tacx Neo (not the Neo 2)  or a Kickr Core to replace it.  Will be using it with Zwift on an Apple TV.  Anybody got any experiances with these two, good or bad?  One concern I have is that from what l've read the Core only will only allow two out of three of Power, Cadence and HR over Bluetooth as it transmits power and cadence on seperate channels wherea Tacx trainers combine them into one.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 05, 2018, 11:00:27 am
Neo has some features that the KickRs don't have, such as the ability to simulate downhills and road surface roughness for Zwift.

I felt my original Kickr over-read somewhat. The need to calibrate regularly was a pain. Neo is supposed to require no calibration. There is no way to do so.

KickR is better at fitting a variety of bikes.

On the feel side, the KickRs all have a large flywheel for inertia - Neo has little flywheel mass and simulates inertia electronically. For me, that doesn't quite work as well - but on intervals with large drops in cadence from a hard interval to a recovery, the Neo will get back on target quicker.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 05, 2018, 12:53:10 pm
...For me, that doesn't quite work as well - but on intervals with large drops in cadence from a hard interval to a recovery, the Neo will get back on target quicker.

This is an important point. We both bought Elite Drivos recently (half price in Black Friday deals) and this trainer also has a lot of inertial "feel" built in - to the point in fact that it doesn't "do" Erg mode how most of us have come to accept it. Turns out the forums are full of people complaining about this - they're used to that gym-bike feel where it instantly locks you to the target power. Trainers with big flywheels, and inertial "road-feel" don't work like that, and getting to and then sticking to an Erg-commanded power is not an instant thing; this is especially obvious with the Drivo, and one of us almost sent theirs back because of it (no names, no pack-drill).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on December 05, 2018, 02:09:26 pm
After planning out a few months of structured training I fell off the wagon 2 months ago - been just riding what I fancied since then with a few weekends on consecutive 200km/100mile rides.  Just managed to get the will power together for a ramp test and happy to see a 2% improvement though still not got the motivation to regularly get back on the hamster wheel!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 05, 2018, 02:34:25 pm
...For me, that doesn't quite work as well - but on intervals with large drops in cadence from a hard interval to a recovery, the Neo will get back on target quicker.

This is an important point. We both bought Elite Drivos recently (half price in Black Friday deals) and this trainer also has a lot of inertial "feel" built in - to the point in fact that it doesn't "do" Erg mode how most of us have come to accept it. Turns out the forums are full of people complaining about this - they're used to that gym-bike feel where it instantly locks you to the target power. Trainers with big flywheels, and inertial "road-feel" don't work like that, and getting to and then sticking to an Erg-commanded power is not an instant thing; this is especially obvious with the Drivo, and one of us almost sent theirs back because of it (no names, no pack-drill).

The Neo’s Simulation of inertia has real potential benefits in that it can better simulate climbing and flat road riding in terms of pedal force throughout the cycle. The triathlon or time trial long forum has quite a lot on this. That was what led me to pick one over the Kickr, along with more accurate (lower!) power measurement.

In use I’ve so far found it excellent, but I haven’t ridden a Kickr and have had it long enough to really review yet. It’s probably a question of simulated inertia via a physics model vs a very big flywheel. FWIW, i think the VeloReality lynx adopts a similar approach to the Neo with a different form factor and price. The Neo 1 looks like a good deal at present.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 06, 2018, 09:13:02 am
I struggled to get up this morning, so I only rode a 45 minute version of the planned workout.  Still coming back from my cold.
I paired my pedals to the phone before I connected the HRM straps up - this seems to have been effective. :)
https://www.strava.com/activities/2002691660

I've got 1 week of work scheduled before my recovery week.  Given I've basically had 10 days off, I'm gonna switch some of the workouts about so I get most of a recovery week, but I also get to ride hard a bit longer. sustained power build to start on 1 January - that's going to be brutal!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Scrantaj on December 06, 2018, 10:57:25 pm
Cheers guys, looks like it will be the Neo. Which is what I was leaning towards to begin with.  Now to wait for the new year sales.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 06, 2018, 11:28:42 pm
Neo1 is discontinued so you should be able to pick one up for less than 900 based on recent pricing, then they’ll be gone. Neo2 is on preorder in UK, but Tacx will send you one for the same (full) price with no postage charge from the Netherlands

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 06, 2018, 11:31:25 pm
Neo1 is discontinued so you should be able to pick one up for less than 900 based on recent pricing, then they’ll be gone. Neo2 is on preorder in UK, but Tacx will send you one for the same (full) price with no postage charge from the Netherlands

Mike

I tell a lie - looks like the Neo2 is now available from UK suppliers, but the 1 has gone up to 899.99.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 08, 2018, 09:12:10 pm
Back on the turbo tonight, after a food and booze heavy week at work. 3 days in London and one in Sheffield, late, meant no bike since last Sunday. Meals with clients meant I put in weight...

Hey hi, did a nice flat Tacx ride tonight - The Ljizer Front in Belgium. 50kms, a smidge under 1hr 30mins and 205 watts average. I think I’m happy with that in the circumstances.

https://www.strava.com/activities/2007026506 (https://www.strava.com/activities/2007026506)

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 09, 2018, 05:33:51 pm
Geiger + 2 today.

Breathing was fairly controlled until the final 30s of the final interval where I finally started to get out of breath.

Probably about the limit of what I can complete right now.

Couple of Bluetooth drop-outs during the workout as well - an annoyance but turning bluetooth off and on again on the iPad fixed it.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 11, 2018, 09:41:02 am
Sunday I didn't do my TR ride because I was hungover (from the cycling club christmas party!). It was a real struggle to get out of bed for TR today. I ended up doing a 45 minute Spencer because I got up, went back to bed, then gave myself a talking to and got up again!
Early morning VO2 workouts without fuel are hard, and I felt somewhat queasy for about 15 minutes after I had stopped.  Must get more organised with banana shopping! Also, my foot hurts afterwards still...
https://www.strava.com/activities/2011196496

The next couple of weeks are going to be randomised somewhat. I can already tell that the 1 January ramp test is going to be disappointing. :( Still, nothing planned to interrupt proper  training from then on...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 11, 2018, 12:46:00 pm
Another ride outside today. Didn't work too hard, but just nice to get a few miles in.

Probably back indoors tomorrow, but needs to be fairly easy, and then weekend away to Tan Hill all being well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 12, 2018, 12:01:07 am
Sunday I didn't do my TR ride because I was hungover (from the cycling club christmas party!). It was a real struggle to get out of bed for TR today. I ended up doing a 45 minute Spencer because I got up, went back to bed, then gave myself a talking to and got up again!
Early morning VO2 workouts without fuel are hard, and I felt somewhat queasy for about 15 minutes after I had stopped.  Must get more organised with banana shopping! Also, my foot hurts afterwards still...
https://www.strava.com/activities/2011196496

The next couple of weeks are going to be randomised somewhat. I can already tell that the 1 January ramp test is going to be disappointing. :( Still, nothing planned to interrupt proper  training from then on...

Good work on getting up and doing something.

The SSB mid volume II plan has been updated with the Tuesday VO2max workouts changed - more, shorter intervals.

Tonight was the first one, https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/45489109-gendarme-3

I've done Gendarme before - I thought it was a bit too easy. The 30:30 protocol comes from running and I expect it's a tough one in that context but too easy for cycling. The +3 variant is not; it's 30:20 and I suspect higher intensity also. The workout text suggested towards the end of the first block of 25 repeats to skip the odd one if fading. I managed to hold on. In the second block I was starting to fade and HR was in the 180s and not dropping during the recoveries. It suggested earlier in the second block trying for doing at least 5 in a row before skipping one, but if that's too daunting at least stringing 2-3 together before a break. I managed 8 before a break, skipped one, then 6, and then the final 9. Not too bad. Definitely a tough one and I'll feel very ordinary tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 12, 2018, 08:08:34 pm
Well, I'm getting into week 3 of some very easy base indoor riding, and I seem to be getting more power for my heart-rate buck, so I guess that's a good sign. More of the same until January - I do one harder ride a week - basically trying to keep up with the 2.2W/Kg PACK riders on Zwift; I managed half way round this week, before I fell off the back.

It's the indoor equivalent of Sunday club rides where you hang on to the wheels of fast boys and girls - until you can't.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 16, 2018, 07:25:35 pm
First 6 week block of training finished.   Started out 9h45 in week 1 and built to 11hrs this week.  100% turbo necessitated by my hand injury.   I feel pretty good despite a slight cold.

The cast comes off tomorrow so I can see what I’m able to do and what the physio plan is.   I’d love to be able to ride to work.   Getting the train is annoying and costs 50 quid a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 16, 2018, 08:26:30 pm
Today was a rest day so a gentle ride outside for only the second time this month. I have 2 outside training rides on my weekly programme but if it's wet and/or cold (which has been most days this month) I do an extended turbo session. It took me a year to get back to where I was before my big crash last October but now I am on the up and should be able to PB every distance from 10 miles to 12 hours. I'd like to target the LVRC pursuit champs too but I'll need to convince Mrs PC that that's a safe option.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 16, 2018, 09:55:58 pm
Yesterday I did a bit of rowing (not much - it was too cold) and a 1h TrainerRoad workout later.

Today I did the full 2h planned workout, Hunter, which is 3x20m sweet-spot. It was hard, but not impossible by any means. Feels like I'm making progress.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/45804470-hunter
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 17, 2018, 06:47:07 pm
First 6 week block of training finished.   Started out 9h45 in week 1 and built to 11hrs this week.  100% turbo necessitated by my hand injury.   I feel pretty good despite a slight cold.

The cast comes off tomorrow so I can see what I’m able to do and what the physio plan is.   I’d love to be able to ride to work.   Getting the train is annoying and costs 50 quid a week.

Turbo only for another 4 weeks.   At least I don’t have to wear the cast any more.

Long distance plans for late Spring are toast.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 17, 2018, 09:02:05 pm
We nearly managed to keep up with the 2W/Kg ride tonight, on Zwift. Fboab dropped her chain and fell out the back, and I got dropped with 2km to go.

New unlocks for me. New FTP for her.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on December 17, 2018, 09:27:46 pm
finished the tough workouts of the sweet spot base one (on trainerroad), now an easy week of recovery/spinning which i will do on the rollers. after that a week of festive500, then back to the sweet spot base two. i'm not expecting any ftp increase just yet, but i'm in a good place to start a new year of training.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on December 17, 2018, 10:09:15 pm
Just did my first ever Trainerroad session this afternoon.  I thought it was quite good.  Much better than Zwift, which I used last year and didn't really like. 

Am planning to do a couple of sessions for fun / get the hang of it this week, then we are away for 10 days at Christmas, so will start in earnest in Jan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 17, 2018, 10:43:11 pm
... Zwift, which I used last year and didn't really like. 

Interesting. That was my initial experience too. I've given it another go, and I'm enjoying it much more. I think making it more immersive with a bigger screen has helped a lot - I was trying with a laptop previously.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on December 17, 2018, 10:56:38 pm
Reading about some of the things that you have done sounded interesting - like hanging on with a w/kg group.  I didn't know about that. I was trying to use it to do workouts set by a coach and it just didn't quite work, the hills were in the wrong places, etc - although the coach is really into it.  The ramp test was good - going up Box Hill.

My setup was fairly basic: laptop + a 19" screen, and no high end graphics, but I'm not really into gaming, etc, I think I prefer to just watch the numbers.  Actually , that reminds me, another problem is that my eyesight wasn't quite good enough to see the Zwift screen properly without glasses!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 18, 2018, 09:15:28 am
I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on December 18, 2018, 07:10:39 pm
No better training platform than a smart trainer and Zwift ime. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 18, 2018, 09:03:32 pm
Training is currently suspended.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 18, 2018, 09:29:21 pm
I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.

Have a look at the new version of the SSB low and mid volume plans. Spencer etc have been replaced by rides of similar TSS with shorter intervals.

I find them easier to complete.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 18, 2018, 09:42:41 pm
Training is currently suspended.
Hopefully this is for the holiday season, and not for a more painful reason?

I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.

Have a look at the new version of the SSB low and mid volume plans. Spencer etc have been replaced by rides of similar TSS with shorter intervals.

I find them easier to complete.
I'll check them out. I quite like Spencer - I think the VO2 max intervals suit me a little better than the under overs. The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?
I've just checked - week 5 of SSB2 now has Spencer+2. That's one extra 3 minute interval, but with an extra minute between each one of them.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 18, 2018, 10:42:38 pm
Training is currently suspended.
Hopefully this is for the holiday season, and not for a more painful reason?

I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.

Have a look at the new version of the SSB low and mid volume plans. Spencer etc have been replaced by rides of similar TSS with shorter intervals.

I find them easier to complete.
I'll check them out. I quite like Spencer - I think the VO2 max intervals suit me a little better than the under overs. The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?
I've just checked - week 5 of SSB2 now has Spencer+2. That's one extra 3 minute interval, but with an extra minute between each one of them.


Work
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 19, 2018, 08:29:13 am
The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?

Every now and then you don't get a choice.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 19, 2018, 09:04:14 am
The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?

Every now and then you don't get a choice.
I guess a broken wrist is exactly how you end up there. :( You have more mental fortitude than I do - I just can't hack it. I hate the likes of Baxter with a passion.

Training is currently suspended.
Hopefully this is for the holiday season, and not for a more painful reason?
Work
I guess that's a different sort of painful reason!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: fboab on December 22, 2018, 05:53:02 pm
I think I could do hours on Zwift- there's enough happening to keep from getting utterly soul destroyed.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 23, 2018, 05:52:22 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 23, 2018, 06:22:51 pm
I was going to remark - "190%?? That would KILL me" but then remembered that I finished a Zwift ride yesterday at 6w/Kg, which is probably about 3x my FTP. I probably didn't maintain it for 30s either.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on December 23, 2018, 06:24:45 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 23, 2018, 06:26:36 pm
Prater yesterday. https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46147587-prater

This is an over-under workout with the unders sometimes being only 1% below threshold and the overs bring up to 115% but only 30s.

It’s one that I’ve done several times now and I’ve often failed. Was ok yesterday - only break was due to dropping my glasses due to tying to wipe away sweat rather than needing a respite.

About to do a 2h sweet spot workout to round off the season. Back again on the 28th with winter season.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 23, 2018, 06:32:11 pm
...only break was due to dropping my glasses due to tying to wipe away sweat rather than needing a respite.

You spelled "tears" wrong  :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 23, 2018, 07:35:58 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 23, 2018, 09:21:52 pm
Mount Goode today - 3 15 minute threshold efforts in a 1hr 30 ride. I took a couple of breaks in the last interval as I was struggling and my knee was sore. Stretching after showed that my glutes were tight - that's probably a contributory factor.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/46178702-mount-goode
Next workout will be the other side of Christmas - hopefully I can re-organise the garage and get my fixie working with the smart trainer that has been sitting next to it. That will really test the knee!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on December 23, 2018, 10:51:36 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 24, 2018, 08:06:17 am
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

THE study? There is a lot out there for you to find, if you are likely to be able to understand them you will find them easy to find. If you can't find them you are unlikely to be able to interpret them and therefore will have to believe whatever you find on a blog or in a book. Sports Science studies are very unlikely to give identical results because the subjects are different and you can't do perfect controlled experiments. Over the last year or so I have done a lot a reading of relevant papers, a meta-analysis of you like. When I qualified as a cycle coach back in the early 80s HRMs were just coming onto the scene, and it was only when I came back after a 20 year break that this new fangled idea of power meters meant I needed to do some swotting up. So I did a lot, but not only on cycling and power studies, a lot of work in the intervening years were done on running and rowing, e.g. work of Billat and Seller. Stephen Seller is very good and has worked with Nordic skiers a lot.

When I started using TrainerRoad two years ago most of the sessions I did were sessions I designed based on my "meta-analysis" using the excellent workout creator. The results were that I smashed all my PBs from 1989 last year. Next year will be faster as I now have time to train consistently all year round, yes there are papers that studied detraining effects out there too.

To put you on the right track I suggest you Google Seller first, his work references lots of others and you'll be able to find lectures he's done on YouTube too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on December 24, 2018, 03:49:09 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

THE study? There is a lot out there for you to find, if you are likely to be able to understand them you will find them easy to find. If you can't find them you are unlikely to be able to interpret them and therefore will have to believe whatever you find on a blog or in a book. Sports Science studies are very unlikely to give identical results because the subjects are different and you can't do perfect controlled experiments. Over the last year or so I have done a lot a reading of relevant papers, a meta-analysis of you like. When I qualified as a cycle coach back in the early 80s HRMs were just coming onto the scene, and it was only when I came back after a 20 year break that this new fangled idea of power meters meant I needed to do some swotting up. So I did a lot, but not only on cycling and power studies, a lot of work in the intervening years were done on running and rowing, e.g. work of Billat and Seller. Stephen Seller is very good and has worked with Nordic skiers a lot.

When I started using TrainerRoad two years ago most of the sessions I did were sessions I designed based on my "meta-analysis" using the excellent workout creator. The results were that I smashed all my PBs from 1989 last year. Next year will be faster as I now have time to train consistently all year round, yes there are papers that studied detraining effects out there too.

To put you on the right track I suggest you Google Seller first, his work references lots of others and you'll be able to find lectures he's done on YouTube too.

The above is a whole load of nothing.

Cite me the study that says you can/should train VO2 beyond 120% of threshold.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 24, 2018, 04:17:03 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

THE study? There is a lot out there for you to find, if you are likely to be able to understand them you will find them easy to find. If you can't find them you are unlikely to be able to interpret them and therefore will have to believe whatever you find on a blog or in a book. Sports Science studies are very unlikely to give identical results because the subjects are different and you can't do perfect controlled experiments. Over the last year or so I have done a lot a reading of relevant papers, a meta-analysis of you like. When I qualified as a cycle coach back in the early 80s HRMs were just coming onto the scene, and it was only when I came back after a 20 year break that this new fangled idea of power meters meant I needed to do some swotting up. So I did a lot, but not only on cycling and power studies, a lot of work in the intervening years were done on running and rowing, e.g. work of Billat and Seller. Stephen Seller is very good and has worked with Nordic skiers a lot.

When I started using TrainerRoad two years ago most of the sessions I did were sessions I designed based on my "meta-analysis" using the excellent workout creator. The results were that I smashed all my PBs from 1989 last year. Next year will be faster as I now have time to train consistently all year round, yes there are papers that studied detraining effects out there too.

To put you on the right track I suggest you Google Seller first, his work references lots of others and you'll be able to find lectures he's done on YouTube too.

The above is a whole load of nothing.

Cite me the study that says you can/should train VO2 beyond 120% of threshold.


Back in the day, Peter Coe advocated 30 second hill reps as one tool in the VO2 armoire. Aim to hit over 95% of HRmax at the end of the rep and then jog back and recover to HR of 120. Repeat a bit. It adds more than VO2max to a middle distance runner of course (and isn’t a study, but he was an effective coach)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 24, 2018, 04:26:11 pm
I’m quite glad that my answer to questions like this is ‘I do what my coach tells me’.   There’s no need for anyone to justify what they do in training if it delivers results.

The proof of all this is what you deliver on the road.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 25, 2018, 12:58:04 am
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on December 25, 2018, 06:16:50 am
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 26, 2018, 08:54:24 pm
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
You probably can. Depends on how many of them you want to try, and how big the rest intervals are... Give it a go...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 26, 2018, 10:25:49 pm
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
You probably can. Depends on how many of them you want to try, and how big the rest intervals are... Give it a go...  :thumbsup:

Not repeatably.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/11051876-kaiser
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 27, 2018, 06:59:49 am

The above is a whole load of nothing.


 :-\. Hehe, the funniest thing I've read all morning. My work here is done!

Now I'll go back to "Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance:  the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training" Stephen Seiler and Espen Tønnessen 2009. Which btw is not the answer to your question but just happens to be a paper I am working through at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on December 27, 2018, 01:33:24 pm

The above is a whole load of nothing.


 :-\. Hehe, the funniest thing I've read all morning. My work here is done!

Now I'll go back to "Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance:  the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training" Stephen Seiler and Espen Tønnessen 2009. Which btw is not the answer to your question but just happens to be a paper I am working through at the moment.

Whatever (clever) Trevor
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 27, 2018, 08:06:53 pm
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
You probably can. Depends on how many of them you want to try, and how big the rest intervals are... Give it a go...  :thumbsup:

Not repeatably.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/11051876-kaiser
You did the first 2. Do you think you could have done the third if you had a bit more rest in between? That would have got you halfway through the session...

I'm going to try to get my fixie working with the Tacx Bushido - I shall soon discover if any of the intervals I thought I could do were really OK, or if the dumb trainer was what was getting me through sessions!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 29, 2018, 12:23:10 pm
Tried the fixie and the smart trainer today. Significant fail - it won't let me ride at 120W with my gearing (48x17) - I get down to about 130W at 60rpm and then it just ramps the resistance up. Warmup was at 250W, and then the rest interval was too hard and I quit (I can't do 5 minutes at or above FTP, then drop it down a little and then do VO2 work).
Maybe it will work better with a lower gear - I have a 20 tooth cog to try (and I can just about get away with the same length chain). Otherwise I'll have to dump my geared bike on there for the build workouts and just do speciality (lots of threshold stuff) on the fixie. Alternatively, if I can whack my FTP up loads, 130-150W would be a comfortable recovery!  :-X
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 29, 2018, 04:01:29 pm
 Back on it after 5 days off with Christmas etc. Over unders. What fun we had.

Edit: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46539300-mcadie
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on December 29, 2018, 07:57:19 pm
We're overdosing on Zwift. Getting up and down stairs is a story of involuntary noises this evening.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on December 29, 2018, 09:26:39 pm
You can tell I wasn't on it this morning - I forgot to reset my crank length - actual length =165mm, pedals think they were on 172.5. Ooops.
I guess that means my real power was a few % over what it reported. Hmmmm.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 30, 2018, 06:14:32 pm
Last workout of 2018.

Highest 2h power of the year and higher than any 2h power in 2017.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46616851-wright-peak-2

Day off tomorrow.  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on December 30, 2018, 08:16:50 pm
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on December 31, 2018, 07:36:23 am
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.

  :thumbsup:
My enforced turbo based winters made a big difference to my speed! This time I'm adding the Z1 work too (plus S&C) so it'll be interesting to see what difference that makes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on December 31, 2018, 01:47:16 pm
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.

  :thumbsup:
My enforced turbo based winters made a big difference to my speed! This time I'm adding the Z1 work too (plus S&C) so it'll be interesting to see what difference that makes.

What is S&C?

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on December 31, 2018, 02:04:34 pm
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.

  :thumbsup:
My enforced turbo based winters made a big difference to my speed! This time I'm adding the Z1 work too (plus S&C) so it'll be interesting to see what difference that makes.

What is S&C?

Cheers

Mike

Strength & Conditioning.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 01, 2019, 07:12:00 pm
No rest.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46763492-solomons

If my FTP was set too high, this workout would find me out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on January 01, 2019, 09:20:01 pm
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.

  :thumbsup:
My enforced turbo based winters made a big difference to my speed! This time I'm adding the Z1 work too (plus S&C) so it'll be interesting to see what difference that makes.

What is S&C?

Cheers

Mike

Strength & Conditioning.

Yep.
I dug out my very old Weight Training for Cyclists book and Tudor Bompa’s Periodization Training for Sports to help plan a sensible routine and then Sufferfest introduced their program via the SF app.

Been doing it for 5/6 weeks now and it’s working well so far. Some exercises are not dissimilar to the ones BC suggest. The tricky thing is to work out when to incorporate the S&C sessions into the overall plan, I normally do them early morning on a rest/easy day so the legs recover sufficiently for the next interval session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on January 02, 2019, 08:44:51 am
No rest.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46763492-solomons

If my FTP was set too high, this workout would find me out.
That's a tough ride. Looks like you upped the power on the last interval - if you can do that then maybe your FTP is slightly too low? :demon:

I did an outdoor sufferfest on New Years eve. Daft club event where we all set off together, did loads of climbing (for Oxfordshire) at our own pace, and then had a pint before riding home.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/46668025-brill-5-0

Gonna do a short hard ride tomorrow on the turbo, and then probably an FTP test on Saturday (possibly a cross race Sunday, if everything comes together). Then it'll be the Sustained Power Build for the next 8 weeks...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on January 03, 2019, 08:37:09 am
Weird experience on Trainerroad yesterday.  There is something not quite right in the way that erg mode is working. 
First 40 mins went ok but when I put the effort back on after a rest interval, the resistance was really spikey, so I was pedalling squares.  Couldn't establish any rythmn, even if I changed right down and tried to spin, etc.  Eventually I restarted the trainer and it was then ok, but not as smooth as at the start. 
Trainer is a Tacx Vortex.
I contacted TR support and asked them. They suggested using an extension to get the ANT+ dongle nearer the trainer, and backpedalling to reset if it happened again, which I'll try.
Anyone else had this?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on January 06, 2019, 09:01:17 pm