Author Topic: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?  (Read 1634 times)

Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« on: June 21, 2018, 03:16:03 pm »
OK I've got the bent, lowrider rack and second set of panniers on order. Hydration an issue to be sorted but I've got ideas. Basically I've not been able to do much riding on it. I've only just got confident to ride them on my commute a few weeks back (just before the weather changed and rain showers came in). I'll be riding with adult on hardtail mtb and 5 year old on frog bike but I'll be the worst going uphill. I know this because I struggled on my only ride up a half decent hill.

We're going to Brittany and doing the velodysse route from Roscoff. I don't one if there are many hills on that route but even without hills I've not got my recumbent legs yet so it'll be harder. I've also not tried it fully loaded. Once I have the rack and panniers I intend to have a trial ride it two.

Does anyone have any advice on touring with recumbents? Any kit I should take that I might not think about? Any techniques for riding? Any advice on a shortcut to getting my recumbent legs?

Back to hydration. The recumbent only has one set of bosses for a bottle cage at the end of the boom. I need a the capability of putting lights on the recumbent but even with a minoura bracket on the derailleur stub I can't get the light over a bottle when on the cage at the front. So I'm going to have to replace the bottle with a light and sort out a hydration system. Camelbak unbottle is no longer made and sold. I was thinking of an ortlieb bladder that comes as a waist belt. Do you think it would be stable around the hard shell seat resting on the rack?

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottles-cages/ortlieb-water-belt-2-litre-blue/

With this tube.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottles-cages/ortlieb-drinking-tube/

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 03:40:43 pm »
Does anyone have any advice on touring with recumbents? Any kit I should take that I might not think about? Any techniques for riding? Any advice on a shortcut to getting my recumbent legs?

80 litre rucksack cover to keep the seat dry (and free of bird poo) when you're not riding.  With USS, some sort of bags to tie over the business end of the handlebars when it's parked in the rain seems to greatly improve cable life.

Think about where things you might normally carry in your pockets will go:  I have a Topeak tri-bag on the boom of my tourer which generally gets used for holding mid-ride nibbles, salbutamol, train tickets and the like (I've also used it to hold a compact camera).  I've cunningly bodged a lip-balm holder onto my GPS/computer bracket, which is more useful than it sounds.

Hill climbing when touring is about not having to stop (because the only thing more difficult than starting on a steep slope is getting off and pushing).  Gear down and ride as slowly as you think you need to to achieve that.

No shortcuts to 'bent legs, I don't think, but having experienced barakta riding a recumbent from zero cycling fitness at all, I'd say that having upright cycling fitness definitely speeds things up.


Quote
Back to hydration.

My touring solution is an Ortlieb 4-litre water bag (which has straps at each end, and is eminently suited to being secured to the rear rack), which I've fettled some generic PVC tube onto, with a Camelbak bite-valve at the end.  A magnet heat-shrinked to the tube mates with one taped between the seat and seat pad to keep the free end under control.

Evolution detailed in this thread:  http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=36358.0

I only use it with plain water, and rarely put more than 1.5 litres in it for riding (it gets filled to capacity for camping).


On the Baron I have a couple of bottle cages bolted to the back of the seat.  I've modified a bottle lid so you can suck water from the bottom (including the pressure relief valve[1] from my original Ortlieb drinking tube).  When that one's empty I swap the lids.  This also means there's a standard bottle that I can grab and drink from when standing beside the bike, which is handy, as that one's riding position means that getting off and stretching is more important.


[1] Which isn't needed on a bladder.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2018, 08:00:27 am »
Similar to Kim - tribag on the stem.

I have both boom and seat mounted bottle cages, but can only use the boom mounted one on the move, the others requires shoulders to do things they really shouldn't (designed by a gibbon, I think).  I fill all the cages and swap bottles round when I stop for a stretch. 

I also use a bladder with water only, dropped into the small drop down pannier of my carradice rack pack.  The rack pack sits very nicely behind the seat back so doesn't disrupt the aero and carries whatever I can't fit in the two outer pockets of a jersey.

If I can work out an easy way to cut and paste from excel, I can share my kit list for my upcoming tour if you like?  I'll be using the rack pack with the drop down panniers and a pair of banana bags, depending on trials of how it all fits.

“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2018, 08:19:45 am »
I'll be riding with adult on hardtail mtb and 5 year old on frog bike


Warn these two that even in France you're likely to be the centre of attention.

Toured with my family and the only 'challenge' is keeping together with the 'bent generally faster going down hill and slower up hill but we all got used to it after a couple of days. But my daughters Rachel and Jo never got used to me getting more attention than them. 
Pete Crane E75

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2018, 08:42:08 am »
I think I have this tribag too. I was planning on trying it out, wrong way round in front of the steerer.

https://www.topeak.com/global/en/products/top-tube-bags/277-tribag

I got a custom frame bag made for my df bike last year and it worked out very well for adding a very useful load space. It wasn't that expensive, being cheaper for a custom bag than buying off the peg from the main bikepacking brands. The success of that makes me wonder if there's a place you could fill out with a custom bag on the streetmachine. There's obviously no triangular frame suitable for filling but is there any space centrally between the lowrider panniers or somewhere else? Probably a non-starter for a custom bag, but since I've not got the rack and second panniers yet I can't see any more useful space. Not that I'll need it I think. Although a bladder bag space might be good.

Do you load stuff onto the bladder? I'm planning four panniers plus rack top bag or loading. A bladder strapped onto that then a weight on top, well that's a potential fail in the bladder I reckon. Unless you have msr dromedary levels of bombproof durability (from what I've heard it's more durable than ortlieb equivalent).

I'm looking at stands too. There's a lowrider mounted one and a chainstay mounted one that's included in HPV's list of options. I've heard with loaded bikes and recumbents the rear mounted one is more stable. Anyone got any views on this?

A leftfield option might be a custom length click-stand hooked on the rear rack just behind the seat perhaps. They're a sturdy but light pole with a hook on top. You use it hooked onto the bike frame somewhere and the bike leans against it. The steering of the df is usually held straight with something too. Overall it's supposed to be very stable even on uneven ground. I know from my son's frog bike that the b stand doesn't work even unloaded if the ground isn't flat.

http://www.click-stand.com/not-your-typical-bike.html

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2018, 08:56:21 am »
I'll be riding with adult on hardtail mtb and 5 year old on frog bike


Warn these two that even in France you're likely to be the centre of attention.

Toured with my family and the only 'challenge' is keeping together with the 'bent generally faster going down hill and slower up hill but we all got used to it after a couple of days. But my daughters Rachel and Jo never got used to me getting more attention than them.
In Holland I was surprised when our son got so much attention. Kids ride everywhere I thought so a touring 4 year old wouldn't draw attention. Wrong idea, he got noticed, kids didn't tour so we were the English novelty act with a young touring child.

As to attention, I get positive attention on it over here. But my partner enjoys the fact that the looks from people are the kind of looks a disabled person gets when they're out being independent. I even got asked by two kids hanging out of a passing car (the driver slowed to allow the kids to ask the question) whether I was disabled! How do you reply to that quickly so they catch it? Amnoyed me no end.

This year our son is 5, he's been riding long enough to be a strong rider so he's getting a rack and bag to carry stuff. Probably his toys but possibly something else too. I think that might draw a little attention away from me.

Regards aAlthough I'm an introvert I'm no shrinking violet so whilst I don't like to be attention I'll not hide. I'll be on my recumbent and you'll not miss me.

I'm just wondering whether I want to go all out on the look at me thing by getting a prominent flag.

I've looked at flag / kite maker recommended on recumbent forums but nothing appeals. National flags would probably put me on the wrong side of my partner who dislikes the idea of nations and national feelings or symbols. I'm not a cat person and rainbows meh! Any good designs out there?

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2018, 09:15:45 am »
Gearing is important especially with hills. Only trouble is I'm not a spinning type of rider. Really don't do spinning up hills on my df but I tried it on my recumbent and painful knees. So I moved up a few gears and started to feel like I read moving forward and no pain in the knees. I got burning quads though. I guess that's 'bent legs being developed!

Seriously though I don't think I can spin up hills. Is there really no other way? It looks like I'm either going to have to n learn to love spinning or develop powerful quads. Looks like the latter option might send me back to the gym. I used to n have very strong legs due to the leg press machine being my favourite in the gym. Used to push full stack, once did it with one leg too for a dangerous laugh. 525lb, 240ishkg I believe was my usual load weight. Plus a lot of walking in the hills.

Put simply I mash it up hills and struggle to spin my way up. Not easy on a bent probably impossible when loaded. I'm hoping Brittany hasn't got big hills.

Riding with mixed bikes, ages and abilities is normal for me. With the recumbent I don't know how I fit in. Used to have to leave them on hills with my df, or at least keep stopping. Will be interesting to find out if on a recumbent in closer to my partner and son on the road.

One more thing. I'll be chief load carrier being the only one able to carry four panniers (if I get the lowrider rack in time they're all out of stock). I've got a set of standard 40 litre total volume ortlieb panniers already. For the rear ones I'm wondering whether more of the same (costs about £100 these days) or one of the two ortlieb options with 70 litre total capacity (costs £137 or £148 depending on whether you choose the pro plus or the basic plus version). Is 110 litres too much volume? I guess I don't have to fill the bags and the extra weight of the larger panniers when empty won't be significant. What do you think?

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2018, 11:49:42 am »
I think I have this tribag too. I was planning on trying it out, wrong way round in front of the steerer.

https://www.topeak.com/global/en/products/top-tube-bags/277-tribag

That's exactly what I use.  (Well, mine's the earlier model with the mesh top, which I've augmented with a couple of Ortlieb repair patches to keep the rain out.)  Works nicely.


Quote
I got a custom frame bag made for my df bike last year and it worked out very well for adding a very useful load space. It wasn't that expensive, being cheaper for a custom bag than buying off the peg from the main bikepacking brands. The success of that makes me wonder if there's a place you could fill out with a custom bag on the streetmachine. There's obviously no triangular frame suitable for filling but is there any space centrally between the lowrider panniers or somewhere else?

I reckon the space between the lowriders is ripe for exploiting, but you need to allow room for the lower chain tube to move up and down unimpeded as you change gear.  It'll get spray from the front wheel, of course.


Quote
Do you load stuff onto the bladder? I'm planning four panniers plus rack top bag or loading. A bladder strapped onto that then a weight on top, well that's a potential fail in the bladder I reckon.

Sure, I often strap a rack bag on top of it for longer day rides (while touring I tend to keep the top of the rear rack free except for last-minute shopping and drying wet clothing).  The bladder tends to squish down through the gaps in the top of the rack, so doesn't end up under much pressure.  It's not going to burst anyway, the bite valve will piss all the water away first.

I've only had an Ortlieb water bag fail once, by the material becoming porous at one end.  I attribute this to regular washing out with Milton-alike, which presumably pooled at the lower edge and became concentrated enough to damage the material.  I've been more careful with its replacement, rinsing out with plain water and air drying, and not had that problem.  It doesn't seem to have gone manky, either.

I've seen YACF's loudest 5 year old jump on one repeatedly (water-filled, with the regular cap) without bursting it, so they're pretty sturdy.  It's sharp objects that are going to be their nemesis.


Quote
I'm looking at stands too. There's a lowrider mounted one and a chainstay mounted one that's included in HPV's list of options. I've heard with loaded bikes and recumbents the rear mounted one is more stable. Anyone got any views on this?

I reckon the lowrider stand is more stable, because it's closer to the centre of mass of the bike lengthwise, and further out from the centre line, but I confess I haven't tried a Streetmachine with a stand on the chainstay.  I've used stands in both positions on DFs, and the Streetmachine lowrider stand is much more stable than either.


Quote
A leftfield option might be a custom length click-stand hooked on the rear rack just behind the seat perhaps. They're a sturdy but light pole with a hook on top. You use it hooked onto the bike frame somewhere and the bike leans against it. The steering of the df is usually held straight with something too. Overall it's supposed to be very stable even on uneven ground. I know from my son's frog bike that the b stand doesn't work even unloaded if the ground isn't flat.

More faff than the lowrider stand, but yes, that should be even more stable.

With USS, a Streetmachine's front wheel has about 45 degrees of travel before the bar hits the seat - this means that you don't get the situation you do with uprights on stands where the front wheel turns 90 degrees, rotates, and the whole bike falls over.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2018, 12:33:49 pm »
In those situations where you have to change directions in limited space by walking it around I find USS a pain. Until I learnt you can lift the bike up by the bars and spin it around. Not sure if I'll manage that fully loaded.

The rack looks a solid one but I prefer lower rails for panniers. They make it easier to strap stuff on top of the panniers are hooked on a second, lower layer of rail.

With my seat the top of the rack doesn't have clear space above for a rack bag. We have a topeak rack bag and it only attaches half way along the rack because of the seat. That means it hangs off the end of the rack. That makes me b think a bag that hangs from the seat might be better. It's it only radical designs that make them? The arkel one doesn't fit the streetmachine (according to Arkel Canada head office customer support). BTW they don't sell their recumbent bag into the UK, you have to n buy from Canada they said. I had to force the Canadian site to see it on their online shop. Any other similar bag maker?

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2018, 09:11:41 am »
Hydration is easy....

As in the OP, use the "Unbottle" by Camelbak or there are similar from others. There is a 2 litre and 3 litre size, and available quite readily through Amazon or others. Try looking at Kayak /. Canoeng or Army Surplus as well for alternatives




Its shape means that it fits behind the seat, and straps in place under the seat fabric. It tucks into the space where the rack arms fit.

It then sits out of the way with the tube over your shoulder allowing hydration as you progress without having to bother with bottles.

When unused the tube can other be clipped to your collar or tucked in as you prefer

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2018, 04:05:03 pm »
Camelbak stopped making the unbottle. Just realized I had an early version a long time ago. So far the only pages I've seen them online is a kayaking shop which I didn't think still existed or ebay or dodgy European sites. They're not in demand because people tend to use bladders in rucksack but bladder pockets

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2018, 03:07:58 pm »
Camelbak stopped making the unbottle. Just realized I had an early version a long time ago. So far the only pages I've seen them online is a kayaking shop which I didn't think still existed or ebay or dodgy European sites. They're not in demand because people tend to use bladders in rucksack but bladder pockets

The concept is still popular

Amazon have quite a few available, and there are hundreds of “bladder with cover” available through “Army surplus” sites

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2018, 06:47:44 pm »
I bought a bladder in a cover from mountain warehouse.  Wanted the cover to fit my camelbak one in rather than use the camelbak running vest. Plenty about as above
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

woollypigs

  • Mr Peli
    • woollypigs
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2018, 08:25:33 pm »
I got room behind the saddle for one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Andoer-Hydration-Bladder-Backpack-Climbing/dp/B00BP3NE0O (got it from fleabay for about a tenner) with one of these key-fop, ID card retractable things to hold onto the hose.

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2018, 11:03:52 pm »
I was looking around for little bits and pieces that are useful and ended up on the Alpkit website. They do a bikepacking bag for the handlebars called a stem cell. They are British made and Alpkit will customise. I was thinking of two made with the webbing loop strap sewn in vertically up the spine of the bag. Two long webbing straps around the hardshell seat under the seat pad and through each bag to the top and bottom of the webbing attachment point. Cinched tight I'm thinking they're going to be stable. They take a nalgene sized bottle so a decent sized cycle bottle would fit and be held by the drawcord at the bag opening.

What do you think as an option?

https://www.alpkit.com/products/stem-cell-2-stem-mounted-bikepacking-bag

TBH I kind of prefer bottles. I've had just too many issues with bladders over the years. I've not got on with camelbak, platypus, source (they make for a lot of other brands too), hydrapak, etc. Leaks, eventual growth inside the tubes, etc. BTW a lot of the bladders are designed to cope with standing on. They mostly cope with it but ime some need you to close them right. Hydrapak was one such bladder. You could jump on a full one and it wouldn't leak but close it slightly wrong and it leaked. To do with the fold at the opening before it slides into the closure. A little tricky ime.

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2018, 11:39:05 pm »
What's your views on mirrors, kickstands and computer mounts / brackets?

I've only got a zefal spy rubber band mounted mirrors (from road bike). I'm guessing mirrycle or cycle star will be better. Are they able to be switched from right to left side for European trips? For my recumbent (of bought new) the mirrycle comes with computer mount. Is that likely to be right? I've got bar end shifters so I suspect the cycle star is best because everything comes included to fix in bar end or band on behind the bar end shifters. Mirrycle mirrors need some bracket I think like the ICE band on brackets.

Pletscher esge stands are ones you can buy with new recumbents like mine. Which ones are best, there's so many versions? Which are the ones able to support 25kg total load instead of the 18kg most support?

I've got a minoura space grip and a topeak version (can take back if minoura one works). Which is best? I got one for front lights but I can't fit it in derailleur stub if bottle cage there. Either one or three other, unless there's a means to raise the bottle cage up a bit releasing the bottom of the stub.

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2018, 11:51:15 pm »
I use Cyclestars because of bar-end shifters on the Streetmachine, and to avoid unnecessary sticky-outy bits on the Baron.

I've recently (this winter) replaced a long-suffering 60mm one on the Streetmachine with the new 80mm one due to crash damage that finally managed to snap the ball off the band, and it seems to work fine (I've heard complaints of it vibrating out of position on rigid uprights due to the extra mass).  I reckon the larger mirror is useful unless it's mounted on a tiller relatively close to your face.  You can unscrew the band of a Cyclestar and move it to the other side straightforwardly enough, but bear in mind that the grub screw that tightens the band is made of cheese and prone to having its head mashed if you use a multi-tool from an awkward angle rather than a proper screwdriver.

The Mirrycle is a good mirror (I've got one somewhere that came with the ICE trike), but it requires a bar-end to attach to.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2018, 08:56:13 am »
That's what I thought about the mirrycle one. HPVelotechnik still the mirrycle with a computer mount on their recumbents that's for bikes with bar ends. I guess the computer mount is like the ICE mini bar end type of thing that's designed to band on I below USS bar end levers. I think I've seen a few ICE trikes set up with mirrors like that. The mount allows the mirrycle on the end and something banded on the mount.

Personally I'm having trouble working out how mirrors are going to work for me. I commuted into work this morning and since I'm learning about recumbents I struggled to n look down to my USS where the bar mounted mirror would be. On an upright I'm practically looking at my zefal spy mirror but not on the recumbent. I'm wondering if a forearm mounted mirror might suit me better. I saw them last night on SJS website.

BTW a second commute on the bent. I'm slow but at least I got in. I'm probably about 2-3mph slower overall. Plus not as quick downhill. That is of course down to fear. 40mph on a df I'm easily OK with but 30mph on my bent and I'm bricking it. Well not quite, I was better and more relaxed today. Actually only got to 24mph top speed and 12-13 mph average speed. Not good stats but it's the hills that's slowing me down more than on my df.

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2018, 08:01:49 pm »
I think it helps to have twin mirrors.
If it's only on the right then you may not see anything coming up a left filter lane and intending to cut in front of you.
Also on a curve the mirrors move with your bars, so a single mirror may not show you what's behind.
But then I'm very reclined on my bent trike, so cannot see much past 90 degrees behind me over my shoulder.

As for mounting them.
I've fitted bar ends on my handlebars and then mount the mirrors into the ends of them.
Depending on the depth of the mirror mount, it's possible to cut the bar ends down in length.

As for bar end mirrors.
The Mirrycle ones are the most rigid, but the plastic arms crack at the fitting so work permanently lose if you knock them alot.
The Cateye ones will move if knocked so are better in that respect, but because they are more flexible they are also more affected by road buzz.
I've not tried the Cyclestars ones.

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2018, 08:12:48 pm »
I find I'm okay with just a right (gets moved to left in ABROAD) mirror on the Streetmachine; I can sit forward and do a shoulder check on the odd occasion there's a left filter lane to deal with.  I have a bell on the other side.

It's less ideal on the Baron, where the tiller steering means I don't have that option, though I tend not to ride that one in the sort of places (urban roads, shared-use paths) where it's much of a problem.  At least, until I tried racing, where not only are others as likely to appear from the left, but your ability to look around is further restricted by the helmet.  I'm going to fit a second mirror on that one.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2018, 08:30:55 pm »
Same with the Cruzbike S40, you can look over your shoulder if necessary.  I do that for left filters, but no chance on the M5 - 25degree vs 40 degree seat and tiller steering to make things wobbly.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

woollypigs

  • Mr Peli
    • woollypigs
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2018, 09:26:55 pm »
I got one of these mirror things that hangs off my glasses



and a simple one on my handlebars, though I don't really use these as I find the above good enough.

OK I haven't done my inner city riding with more rural roads but I find them a brilliant of kit.

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2018, 09:28:49 pm »
I couldn't get on with one of those, it was always In The Way.  As ever, YMMV.

It's a pretty neat solution otherwise.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2018, 10:42:22 pm »
I saw these, I wonder if they're any good? Not good for strange tan lines though!

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/accessories/rearviz-classic-mirror/

Re: Newbie recumbent touring - any advice?
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2018, 06:15:49 am »
That's what I thought about the mirrycle one. HPVelotechnik still the mirrycle with a computer mount on their recumbents that's for bikes with bar ends. I guess the computer mount is like the ICE mini bar end type of thing that's designed to band on I below USS bar end levers. I think I've seen a few ICE trikes set up with mirrors like that. The mount allows the mirrycle on the end and something banded on the mount.

Personally I'm having trouble working out how mirrors are going to work for me. I commuted into work this morning and since I'm learning about recumbents I struggled to n look down to my USS where the bar mounted mirror would be. On an upright I'm practically looking at my zefal spy mirror but not on the recumbent. I'm wondering if a forearm mounted mirror might suit me better. I saw them last night on SJS website.

BTW a second commute on the bent. I'm slow but at least I got in. I'm probably about 2-3mph slower overall. Plus not as quick downhill. That is of course down to fear. 40mph on a df I'm easily OK with but 30mph on my bent and I'm bricking it. Well not quite, I was better and more relaxed today. Actually only got to 24mph top speed and 12-13 mph average speed. Not good stats but it's the hills that's slowing me down more than on my df.


All my recumbents have these as a matter of course.