Author Topic: Prizes for first back.  (Read 5000 times)

Prizes for first back.
« on: September 12, 2018, 09:00:46 am »
An organiser near me has announced for the second time (that I’ve noticed) that the first three riders back will receive a bottle of beer each. He includes an ‘Audax is not a race’ qualifier, but am I alone in feeling rather uncomfortable about this?

I’ve heard rumours that other organisers quietly slip a beer to the first riders back, and I’m not overly bothered about that, but too announce it publicly in advance just seems wrong.

I know audaxers pretend not to race, but by overtly announcing the first three get a prize, however low value, bothers me. It removes that pretence and I feel it goes against the ethos of Audax.

I’m a mean cyclist (mean as in average, I tend to arrive about the middle of the pack), so it doesn’t make any difference to me, but I enjoy Audax because of the lack of elitism, and I feel by celebrating the ‘winners’ in such an overt way (even if it is just with a three quid ‘prize’) just isn’t in the spirit.

Is it just me? Am I wrong to be bothered? What are the thoughts of the collective?

John

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2018, 09:08:02 am »
I've not seen anything like that, but I wouldn't like it either.  A prize for the last back within the allotted time would be fun.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

whosatthewheel

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2018, 09:22:47 am »
I don't see a problem with that. A bottle of beer is not enough of an incentive to turn a ride into a race.
If he said he only has 5 event medals (or mugs with a logo or commemorative T-shirts) and those will go to the first 5 finishers, that would be a different matter.

Food/drink at the finish is first come first served anyway... there should be enough food for all, but there might not be enough beer for all...  ;D

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2018, 09:28:27 am »
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

whosatthewheel

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2018, 09:32:28 am »
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

not true... a beer won't make any difference...if I decided I want to be the first back, I will try and do so, if I am not bothered, it's not a beer that will change my mind. It's a non issue... a beer is not a trophy

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2018, 09:39:53 am »
Different rewards for the first three than the last three makes 'winning' incentivised. It doesn't matter what that prize is.

I don't like it either.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2018, 09:41:57 am »
I've not seen anything like that, but I wouldn't like it either.  A prize for the last back within the allotted time would be fun.

In fairness there was a beer for lantern rouge last time (and won by a club mate who had a heroic adventure!). Although it wasn’t announced until someone asked about it. I have no objections to that ‘prize’. It is of course the tail end where most of the interesting stuff happens!

I don't see a problem with that. A bottle of beer is not enough of an incentive to turn a ride into a race.
I’m not so sure. I may be wrong but the lure of overt recognition can be strong. Look at the battle for segments on Strava, and that is worth nothing. There were comments on Facebook last time about trying to win one (although I concede they may have been tongue in cheek, it’s hard to tell).

Food/drink at the finish is first come first served anyway... there should be enough food for all, but there might not be enough beer for all...  ;D

True, if there were three bottles of beer put out at the end (with no announcement) I’d be ok with that, but it’s the overt announcement before that bothers me.

How would you feel if the organiser announced beforehand he’d only got cake for ten people? The rest can have bread and water.

John

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2018, 09:43:55 am »
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

This is my gut reaction. I’ve been trying to find the legal definition. This could actually make the Audax illegal!!!

John

whosatthewheel

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2018, 09:54:45 am »
Again,

it's all been blown out of proportion... we are digressing about "nothing"*

*... which is probably the very essence of fora

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2018, 09:58:27 am »
Prizes for first back turn the rides into races. End of.

This. And I don't like it either.

This could actually make the Audax illegal!!!

Or could at least invalidate the insurance?


On a slightly different note, I was considering sending out a list of finishing times to riders on my recent event. The reason being that because I had instant validation, I didn't fill in the times on the cards at the finish - would have been too time consuming - but some riders like to have that information. It's there on the official results submitted to AUK, so it seems mean not to share it with the riders themselves (and it would have to be a mass email because I'm not sending out 50+ individual emails for that).

But then I though this would probably fall foul of rules about 'publishing' times, besides which I figured that any rider interested enough to know their time could work it out from the time stamp in the finish control. I could argue that I'm only sharing the times among a closed group, but it only takes one of that group to post the list on facebook, which you know they're going to do even if you ask them not to...

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2018, 10:01:40 am »
it's all been blown out of proportion...

No it hasn't. The OP said he "feels rather uncomfortable" about it and asked how others feel. Some agree with him, some don't. That's not exactly what you'd call mass hysteria.

If people start talking about naming and shaming, or even striking off this organiser, that would be blowing it out of proportion. Suggesting beating him to death with a Zefal HPX would really be taking it too far.

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2018, 10:06:35 am »
This is not bragging but a statement of fact; I've been first back on every Audax I've done bar LEL in 2013 where I was 6th or 7th, and was presented with absolutely nothing!

That is the way it should be, if one person gets a beer for finishing (first or otherwise) then everybody should get a beer for finishing within time limits.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2018, 10:08:15 am »
If I was an organiser I wouldn't do it.  Much more sociable to have an open bar (as in the West Highland 1000). 

Having said that, in my events, as they are all permanents, most riders are first back and I would often them a beer if it wasn't for them finishing 200+km from my home.
Eddington Numbers 123 (imperial), 168 (metric) 516 (furlongs)  110 (nautical miles)

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2018, 10:09:08 am »
Literally the thing that makes audaxes unique is that there’s no prize for finishing first. Doesn’t matter whether or not it actually changes rider behaviour, it still changes the tone of the event and in whatever small way undermines the achievements of the other riders on the event.

Do something interesting and award a beer to the person in 27th, or with the most inappropriate bike or the most catastrophic mechanical or whatever.

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2018, 10:16:07 am »
Do something interesting and award a beer to the person ...... with the most inappropriate bike or the most catastrophic mechanical or whatever.
Arbitary decision by organiser, or decided by a committee (of riders who took part)? :-D

whosatthewheel

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2018, 10:31:09 am »
Literally the thing that makes audaxes unique is that there’s no prize for finishing first.

Not Audax USP.... even sportives don't hand out prizes to the first finisher in this country... some have gold,silver and bronze standards based on finish time, but no prizes... charity rides don't hand out prizes. Reliability rides don't hand out prizes... in fact only races and time trials hand out prizes to the first finisher.

I appreciate the Audax world is a bare bone budget one, but seeing a bottle of beer as a "prize to the winner" takes some stretch of imagination.

billy crystal

  • aka hillbilly
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2018, 10:33:55 am »
I'm sure the organiser has taken into consideration the risk that distinguishing "places" in advance of the Event may (or may not) invalidate their organiser insurance.  And if that happens then they could be personally liable for any claims otherwise covered by AUK's organiser insurance.

The organiser might feel more confident that a lawyer or claim assessor wouldn't seek to pervert what in a more sensible world would be an innocent gesture.

That said, they can do what they want imo.  Even if I, personally, feel that it slightly goes against the "one for all and all for one" attitude of dashing musketeers randonneurs.
By the time a man is wise enough to watch his step, he's too old to go anywhere.

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2018, 10:35:21 am »
But then I though this would probably fall foul of rules about 'publishing' times

The finishing times of all LEL riders are published by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux (which is the validation body). PBP (i.e. ACP) publishes finishing times. I'm not sure there is a rule within AUK to say that finish times absolutely cannot be published for rides it validates. As we know, rides are run by individual organisers not by AUK.

Personally I'd prefer that finishing times of all Audaxes were not published, and definitely not publicly. I can imagine there would be considerable unexpected consequences from changes in rider behaviour (and the types of riders who would enter in order to "win") to make Audax worse overall.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Tomsk

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Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2018, 10:36:54 am »
Easter Eggs for 'Full Value' on my 100km Woodman & 50 km Woodman's Daughter back in April.  :thumbsup: Plus the scones, cream, jam, cakes, everyone else got as a 'prize'.

Been very tempted to tell lead riders someone was in hours before, just to see the look on their faces ...  :demon:  We have just occasionally had a top long distance TT-er ride my events, not validated 'cos too quick and of course nobody has seen them on the road or at controls.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2018, 10:38:43 am »
The problem is not that a bottle of beer will encourage anyone to ride faster but that it's special treatment.

I've not seen anything like that, but I wouldn't like it either.  A prize for the last back within the allotted time would be fun.

In fairness there was a beer for lantern rouge last time (and won by a club mate who had a heroic adventure!). Although it wasn’t announced until someone asked about it. I have no objections to that ‘prize’. It is of course the tail end where most of the interesting stuff happens!
As someone who's frequently lanterne rouge, I can confirm there is also competition for this prestigious place. On 200s and 300s I often lose out to Roger from South Wales, on shorter events various random locals claim the glory. I've never seen anybody get a prize for it, although on the Jaeger Bomb we (me and my fellow lanterne-rouger who shall remain anonymous, Roger wasn't there!) were offered various remnants of rice pudding and cake to finish up.  :thumbsup: And that's the way it should be.
An ungovernable laughter, a joyous agitation which makes the summer stretching before you seem like an unrolling canvas on which you might draw those first rude pure strokes that are free. (Capote)

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2018, 10:42:01 am »
Be honest; you only brought this up because the diversity thread was slowing down, didn't you?

whosatthewheel

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2018, 10:42:24 am »
Even if I, personally, feel that it slightly goes against the "one for all and all for one" attitude of dashing musketeers randonneurs.

I think a similar conversation was had a few months back. Some people are quicker, others are slower... I don't think the quicker ones are competing... they just happen to be quicker.
A 20-23 km/h moving speed (which is probably where the social end of the ride is) for me is uncomfortable... it means I would have to constantly stop pedalling and coast or use a gear I am not used to pushing... some feel the same about 25 km/h... some even feel the same about 30 km/h, believe it or not...

mattc

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Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2018, 10:43:36 am »
This is not bragging but a statement of fact; I've been first back on every Audax I've done bar LEL in 2013 where I was 6th or 7th, and was presented with absolutely nothing!

That is the way it should be, if one person gets a beer for finishing (first or otherwise) then everybody should get a beer for finishing within time limits.

 :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2018, 10:45:41 am »
The organiser might feel more confident that a lawyer or claim assessor wouldn't seek to pervert what in a more sensible world would be an innocent gesture.

You would hope not. That would indeed be blowing it out of proportion. Lawyers, though...

frankly frankie

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Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 11:18:17 am »
The finishing times of all LEL riders are published by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux (which is the validation body). PBP (i.e. ACP) publishes finishing times. I'm not sure there is a rule within AUK to say that finish times absolutely cannot be published for rides it validates. As we know, rides are run by individual organisers not by AUK.

"Regulation 9.10 Results: AUK events are not races and no timed results list or placings list of any AUK event may be published."

I must say I rode a randonnee in France where each control stamp was a counter that showed your placing within the field as a whole (about 2000 of them) - aiming for a lower number at each successive control was a great new dimension to the ride for me (and half-killed me, as it turned out).

I've not seen anything like that, but I wouldn't like it either.  A prize for the last back within the allotted time would be fun.
In fairness there was a beer for lantern rouge last time (and won by a club mate who had a heroic adventure!). Although it wasn’t announced until someone asked about it. I have no objections to that ‘prize’. It is of course the tail end where most of the interesting stuff happens!
As someone who's frequently lanterne rouge, I can confirm there is also competition for this prestigious place. On 200s and 300s I often lose out to Roger from South Wales, on shorter events various random locals claim the glory. I've never seen anybody get a prize for it, although on the Jaeger Bomb we (me and my fellow lanterne-rouger who shall remain anonymous, Roger wasn't there!) were offered various remnants of rice pudding and cake to finish up.  :thumbsup: And that's the way it should be.

As a sometime finish controller I would be dead against anything that incentivises tail-enders.  One well-known local 'character' rides round comfortably then pads out any remaining time allowed, in the pub down the road, before rolling in to the finish.  That is unspeakably bad behaviour IMO.
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