Author Topic: Prizes for first back.  (Read 4802 times)

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2018, 09:00:13 pm »
If you're going to have a "joke" prize, it really should be for something a little silly; not just the winner!
Exactly!   :thumbsup:

The Kidderminster Killer was a great ride, which is why I was disappointed when I saw the ‘prizes’. This one also looks awesome but (if I was around) I wouldn’t have done it, because the ethos didn’t feel right with these ‘prizes’ being advertised. It did put me off, which is why I asked the question as I was curious if it was just me being a snowflake.

Now as strange as it may sound, it appears that the majority on this thread agree it’s ‘a bit off’ (although I assume most would be sensible enough not to flounce off and not do it as I was going to). Phil has now altered the prizes so they are (what I would describe as) a lot more fun and less elitist. If I was around, I would now definitely be signing up.

Now, purely for academic reasons (ok, and because it will cheese off Whosatthewheel and Flatus  ;)) I looked up the offence on the Police National Legal Database to see if there was a definition of racing. The closest it got was:

“Bicycle race:means a race or trial of speed which is not a time trial.”

So, not very helpful. I would argue that in the astronomically small chance that Phil got hauled in front of the beak, it would be down to the ‘man on the Clapham omnibus test’. The question being something like: ‘is a group of riders riding a fixed route, where the first three finishers receive something the others don’t, a race?’

John

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2018, 11:22:28 pm »
Nobody has raised the diversity issue - what if the prize winner is a non-drinker, especially for cultural or religious reasons. It's why footballers are no longer offered champagne for man of the match, but a small trophy instead.
Events I am running: 6th Apr 2019 3Down London - New Forest 300K; 22nd Jun 2019 Willesden's Last Gasp 600K; 30th Jun 2019 2 Audaxes from Maidenhead;

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2018, 12:49:26 am »
I don't like beer.
I'm not riding and was never anything other than a Lanterne Rouge.
Other beverages are available.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2018, 06:55:49 am »
Now, purely for academic reasons (ok, and because it will cheese off Whosatthewheel and Flatus  ;)) I looked up the offence on the Police National Legal Database to see if there was a definition of racing. The closest it got was:

“Bicycle race:means a race or trial of speed which is not a time trial.”

So, not very helpful. I would argue that in the astronomically small chance that Phil got hauled in front of the beak, it would be down to the ‘man on the Clapham omnibus test’. The question being something like: ‘is a group of riders riding a fixed route, where the first three finishers receive something the others don’t, a race?’

John
also purely for academic reasons:

You would also need to look at precedents. I am not aware of any, but someone probably is ...


In practice, this would only be an issue if there was:
- am RTA where insurers got involved, or
- some other breach of the peace, crime etc resulting in police involvement.

(In either case, things would be exacerbated if speed, or some sort of careless riding was involved. Or some behaviour that looked like "racing" to Joe Public, or a man watching from the Clapham Omnibus.)

Very unlikely, but not impossible.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2018, 06:59:12 am »
Now, purely for academic reasons (ok, and because it will cheese off Whosatthewheel and Flatus  ;)) I looked up the offence on the Police National Legal Database to see if there was a definition of racing. The closest it got was:

“Bicycle race:means a race or trial of speed which is not a time trial.”

So, not very helpful. I would argue that in the astronomically small chance that Phil got hauled in front of the beak, it would be down to the ‘man on the Clapham omnibus test’. The question being something like: ‘is a group of riders riding a fixed route, where the first three finishers receive something the others don’t, a race?’

John
also purely for academic reasons:

You would also need to look at precedents. I am not aware of any, but someone probably is ...


In practice, this would only be an issue if there was:
- am RTA where insurers got involved, or
- some other breach of the peace, crime etc resulting in police involvement.

(In either case, things would be exacerbated if speed, or some sort of careless riding was involved. Or some behaviour that looked like "racing" to Joe Public, or a man watching from the Clapham Omnibus.)

Very unlikely, but not impossible.

Even though the police have barely the resources to even turn up to burglaries, let alone investigate them, I'm sure if they got wind of a pint being offered at an obscure cycling event for 40 people they would come down like a ton of bricks.

whosatthewheel

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2018, 07:15:00 am »


Now as strange as it may sound, it appears that the majority on this thread agree it’s ‘a bit off’ (although I assume most would be sensible enough not to flounce off and not do it as I was going to). Phil has now altered the prizes so they are (what I would describe as) a lot more fun and less elitist. If I was around, I would now definitely be signing up.


So you kicked a fuss about an event you didn't even want to ride...

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2018, 07:21:48 am »
And we wonder why audax has such a low participation rate amongst the compos mentis.

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2018, 07:50:29 am »


Now as strange as it may sound, it appears that the majority on this thread agree it’s ‘a bit off’ (although I assume most would be sensible enough not to flounce off and not do it as I was going to). Phil has now altered the prizes so they are (what I would describe as) a lot more fun and less elitist. If I was around, I would now definitely be signing up.


So you kicked a fuss about an event you didn't even want to ride...
No. I asked a generic question about awarding prizes for ‘winning’ audaxes in order to see if I was alone in my feelings. It just so happened it was triggered by an event that I want to ride, but I am unable to. I didn’t name the ride or organiser.

Are you only interested in things that directly, personally, have an impact on you?

John

whosatthewheel

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2018, 09:26:52 am »


Are you only interested in things that directly, personally, have an impact on you?

John

Not necessarily... but you could kind of expect this thread to escalate... any time you post something along the lines of "Is this in the spirit of Audax?" that causes a flurry of opinions, relevant and not.
In view of that, it would have been wiser to talk to the organiser directly, expressing your concerns.

Annoyingly, I think I was second finisher at last year's Autumn Rivers, but I don't recall getting a beer as a prize, clearly that wasn't a race then...  :P

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2018, 10:04:38 am »
I was curious if it was just me being a snowflake.

Possibly, a wee bit.

I never liked the fact that the Tour of the Surrey Hills has sportive-style Gold/Silver/Bronze time gradings but I've ridden it a few times and it's a great event so I don't let that bother me. It has no bearing on my ride anyway. (I don't know if they still have those gradings - it's a few years since I last rode it.)

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2018, 10:11:32 am »
It's not RUSA directly but there are extra awards in the US for people who complete Audaxes within 80%, 70% and 60% of the time limits:-

http://cyclosmontagnards.org/R80Rules.html
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2018, 10:41:10 am »
AUK has a fully developed ranking system. The various formal awards are backed up by the Mersey Roads 24, which has bands of achievement from 400 to 700 km, and by events so severe that finishing them is an indication of athleticism.

It's possible to decode that information to establish an informal ranking. Information from other events can also be used to identify the champions of the sport, for those who care about such things. Those positions can be adjusted by observers to take account of demeanour and equipment choice to identify their own heroes.

If a modest fellow on a steel bike with mudguards wins the bottle of beer, that's better than someone 'pushy' on a carbon bike in my book. Others will have different prejudices, all equally valid, as Audax is a 'Broad Church' and religions are largely about bundles of prejudice, or 'fixed' ideas, and we have an award for that too.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2018, 10:50:07 am »
I never liked the fact that the Tour of the Surrey Hills has sportive-style Gold/Silver/Bronze time gradings but I've ridden it a few times and it's a great event so I don't let that bother me.

A hangover from earlier times when AUK had some ultra-hilly 100s (some of them much hillier than the Tour of the Hills) with a time limit of 5 hours (Gold) after which the organisers went home or to the nearest pub and anyone finishing within 7 hours could award themselves a Silver.  At that time the LE-JoG also had Gold (80h), Silver (108h) and Bronze times, the Bronze being the 2-week version that most people do these days.

Back in the day when Sheila and I rode the Marmotte together, she left me on the final climb up Alpe d'Huez and finished about 5 mins ahead of me.  By virtue of being (a) female and (b) of a certain age, she got the highly coveted Gold Marmotte.  I, 5 minutes later, was handed the Bronze.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2018, 10:51:41 am »
<aside>
I think this is the fastest-growing thread I've seen on here.
</aside>

Other than that, I don't give a damn what kind of bike someone rides on an Audax as long as it's human-powered. I'm a weak old bugger on a carbon bike, I don't drink beer, and if I get home three seconds under the guillotine it'll be a bloody miracle. I'll be ten times more delighted than the look-at-me colossus who made it round with six hours to spare, too. Give him a beer by all means; maybe it'll choke him.
Où sont les merguez d'antan ?

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2018, 11:13:15 am »
It's not RUSA directly but there are extra awards in the US for people who complete Audaxes within 80%, 70% and 60% of the time limits:-

http://cyclosmontagnards.org/R80Rules.html

Interesting.... for more info contact Cyclos Montagnards, c/o Bicycle Quarterly, 2442 NW Market St #426, Seattle, WA, USA, bqletters at bikequarterly dot com

ACP/RUSA regs state that:
- A brevet must be done alone and may not be counted as participation in another event held in conjunction with it.
- Brevets are not competitive events, so no rider classifications are made.

Technically, CM are not running events but recognising achievement but it's a bit tenuous.

It's hard to get excited by 'other' organisations recognising participation in RUSA Brevets amongst other events per se, however rider classifications - which is the whole point of such recognition - is directly contrary to ACP/RUSA regs...

Full Disclosure: I was once 'awarded' a "Gold Grimpeur" Medal by the late and much missed Tim Wainwight for the "Battle and Back" out of Warlingham. It couldn't have been time based as I finished with minutes to spare (no change there).  I don't think it was made of real gold but rather somthing like depleted uranium. The thing weighed a ton and it was clear that pinning it to my saddlebag would ensure I would never be in contention for such an award ever again.

Ben T

  • What you saying, then?
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2018, 12:55:39 pm »
If a modest fellow on a steel bike with mudguards wins the bottle of beer, that's better than someone 'pushy' on a carbon bike in my book. Others will have different prejudices, all equally valid, as Audax is a 'Broad Church' and religions are largely about bundles of prejudice, or 'fixed' ideas, and we have an award for that too.
What about someone pushy on a steel bike vs a modest fellow on a carbon bike?  :-\ :)
Unless you put on overalls, boots, and a helmet with a high tech pre fitted lamp - and you dig coal - nope, you don't know me.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2018, 12:57:40 pm »
Precisely.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

whosatthewheel

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2018, 12:58:27 pm »

What about someone pushy on a steel bike vs a modest fellow on a carbon bike?  :-\ :)

You can't mix stereotypes... it's not in the spirit of Audaxing

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2018, 02:14:31 pm »
If a modest fellow on a steel bike with mudguards wins the bottle of beer, that's better than someone 'pushy' on a carbon bike in my book. Others will have different prejudices, all equally valid, as Audax is a 'Broad Church' and religions are largely about bundles of prejudice, or 'fixed' ideas, and we have an award for that too.
What about someone pushy on a steel bike vs a modest fellow on a carbon bike?  :-\ :)

I'll admit to be being swayed in my judgements by my preference for low-budget solutions to the problems posed by the rigours of Audax. So Peter Simon got my personal award for the best performance of 2016 by coming hone first on the Mille Pennines on a 1983 Raleigh Record Ace that was modified to take big tyres.

Peter admitted that his carbon bike might have been even faster. It makes a good story, and that's always going to win over 'bling', which just requires the handing over of cash. But that's just my view.

However, I'm not convinced by the trend towards super-hard rides as a form of athletic display. I'd prefer a sliding scale of maximum time allowed, based on AAA points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBIU38fbiyA

Ben T

  • What you saying, then?
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2018, 02:47:59 pm »
So since when has steel been free?
If I wanted a similar steel bike from 1983 it would probably today be regarded as a 'classic' and thus require the handing over of quite a lot of cash to get it.
Unless you put on overalls, boots, and a helmet with a high tech pre fitted lamp - and you dig coal - nope, you don't know me.

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #95 on: September 13, 2018, 03:57:21 pm »
About £95, and £15 postage. https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/263900146503?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D49076c9788864aea8383d6a7a06bc742%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D253820704595%26itm%3D263900146503

That assumes you haven't got one in the garage, as I have. There are plenty of them about, and they turn up on PBP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-glPimWvLO0

Gavin Reichert finished in under 70 hours, a pretty good performance. http://shprung.com/pbp/?mode=info&frame=N192

Obviously views about this sort of thing are always going to be subjective, but that doesn't stop those views being based on evidence.

Ben T

  • What you saying, then?
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2018, 04:29:44 pm »
About £95, and £15 postage. https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/263900146503?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D49076c9788864aea8383d6a7a06bc742%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D253820704595%26itm%3D263900146503

That assumes you haven't got one in the garage, as I have. There are plenty of them about, and they turn up on PBP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-glPimWvLO0

Gavin Reichert finished in under 70 hours, a pretty good performance. http://shprung.com/pbp/?mode=info&frame=N192

Obviously views about this sort of thing are always going to be subjective, but that doesn't stop those views being based on evidence.


I guess saying bling "just requires handing over cash" implies that the rider of an ancient steel bike is somehow more noble because they have kept their bike going strong since the 80s.
But they may not have - they may have just bought it a week ago on ebay.

Carbon bikes do still require maintenance - to varying degrees depending on component choice.

(Can't be about respect for poorer riders in preference to wealthier ones as your personal award seems unaffected by the fact the winner of it also owns a carbon bike...)
Unless you put on overalls, boots, and a helmet with a high tech pre fitted lamp - and you dig coal - nope, you don't know me.

Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2018, 04:32:12 pm »
Never mind prizes for first back, there are some real prize winners on this thread...

(click to show/hide)

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2018, 04:41:02 pm »
A hangover from earlier times when AUK had some ultra-hilly 100s (some of them much hillier than the Tour of the Hills) with a time limit of 5 hours (Gold) after which the organisers went home or to the nearest pub and anyone finishing within 7 hours could award themselves a Silver.

Ah! Thanks for the historical context. It always struck me as odd, especially since the event is run by a CTC group, but that makes a bit more sense.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Prizes for first back.
« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2018, 05:12:43 pm »
A number of French brevets (not BRMs e.g. Fleche de France) have gold, silver and bronze time limits. I suspect AUK's graduated ride awards followed that template. I think there used to be gold, silver and bronze standards for the LEJOG perm in AUK's distant past.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...