Author Topic: Fuel duty freeze  (Read 5338 times)

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2018, 09:41:23 am »
I never understood how roads create traffic until they upgraded the A419/A417 from Swindon to Gloucester (ignoring the still-crappy bit at Nettleton...the pub there is excellent if you get stuck, though).  Over the next few years we suddenly had hundreds of people at work that lived in Cheltenham and Gloucester.  That had never happened before.

Apparently people judge whether a commute is worth the aggro purely by time, not distance.

And we still do this. Surrey wants to build more roads because, erm, they don't actually know. The usual evidence-free blurb about vague 'economic benefits.' They seem to forget they also claim not to have the money to fix their existing roads. No one benefits other than business who can relocate to grim industrial parks and expect their staff to drive an extra half hour each way. Yet, we celebrate this – remind me who pays. Actually remind the people in the cars, because that's the bounds of their new 'freedom.' To sit in a car they probably can't afford (and more often these days, cars are just the literal vehicle of debt-based financial derivatives) – at least if you commute by public transport, it's time you can do something with. Time in a car is dead time. If you walk or cycle, you get exercise and you might enjoy it. You're unlikely to sit in traffic getting anything other than angry. Don't worry, you can repeat the activity at the weekend trying to get to the shops which deserted the high street.

We've built an expectation around owning a car – it's symbolic of other things, hence the urban battle tanks where the main combat role is squeezing into dwindling parking spaces and manoeuvres around supermarket car parks. The power of advertising. Again, it just sucks the money out of things, you don't get to a supermarket any better in a £10k car than a £30k SUV; if anything, given the costs, parking etc. it's a lot worse.

A bit of financial tinkering won't change of this, it needs fresh thinking at all levels. At least there is more willingness to work from home, have things delivered etc.

Still, I was reading yesterday about our super proposed new town centre development. Parking woes again. It's directly across the road from the train station and between two supermarkets and on the high street.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2018, 09:56:29 am »
Fuel duty is tax revenue, of course. So the less of it there is, the more taxes have to be raised on something else, like VAT or income tax. Or the more services have to be cut.

Not digging at you but this sort of view is so ingrained, as long as we have no shortages of material or labour then cuts are a choice. In terms of efficiency a very poor one at that.
Nuns, no sense of humour

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2018, 10:08:50 am »
Fuel duty is tax revenue, of course. So the less of it there is, the more taxes have to be raised on something else, like VAT or income tax. Or the more services have to be cut.

Not digging at you but this sort of view is so ingrained, as long as we have no shortages of material or labour then cuts are a choice. In terms of efficiency a very poor one at that.
Not sure what you mean? Obviously cuts, and increases in spending, are a political choice, but if you've decided to spend £xbn then if you don't raise it from here, you raise it from there.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2018, 10:27:10 am »
Fuel duty is tax revenue, of course. So the less of it there is, the more taxes have to be raised on something else, like VAT or income tax. Or the more services have to be cut.

Not digging at you but this sort of view is so ingrained, as long as we have no shortages of material or labour then cuts are a choice. In terms of efficiency a very poor one at that.
Not sure what you mean? Obviously cuts, and increases in spending, are a political choice, but if you've decided to spend £xbn then if you don't raise it from here, you raise it from there.

Except that's not really how it works (it's just how they like you to think it works).
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2018, 10:43:41 am »
Fuel duty is tax revenue, of course. So the less of it there is, the more taxes have to be raised on something else, like VAT or income tax. Or the more services have to be cut.

Not digging at you but this sort of view is so ingrained, as long as we have no shortages of material or labour then cuts are a choice. In terms of efficiency a very poor one at that.
Not sure what you mean? Obviously cuts, and increases in spending, are a political choice, but if you've decided to spend £xbn then if you don't raise it from here, you raise it from there.

Ian has it, and with the upsurge in interest around MMT, job guarantees and basic incomes, it's becoming harder to advocate the 'traditional' view. There is no need to raise it at all, not with a sovereign currency, there are real limitations but those are in materials and labour. We cannot run out of the make believe bit but we allow that bit to dictate.
Nuns, no sense of humour

Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2018, 11:35:09 am »
Not all new developments. Most of the new stuff (blocks of flats, not houses) being built around here (SW15) have no or limited parking provision (at most one space per flat in a basement car park) and, more importantly, the residents have no right to apply for on-street parking permits. Most of the blocks have zipcar or similar parking places right outside. The nearest areas where you can park for free (i.e. no CPZ) 24h a day are at least a mile away.

All of this is possible because the local transport links are excellent.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2018, 02:31:24 pm »
Fuel duty is tax revenue, of course. So the less of it there is, the more taxes have to be raised on something else, like VAT or income tax. Or the more services have to be cut.

Not digging at you but this sort of view is so ingrained, as long as we have no shortages of material or labour then cuts are a choice. In terms of efficiency a very poor one at that.
Not sure what you mean? Obviously cuts, and increases in spending, are a political choice, but if you've decided to spend £xbn then if you don't raise it from here, you raise it from there.

Ian has it, and with the upsurge in interest around MMT, job guarantees and basic incomes, it's becoming harder to advocate the 'traditional' view. There is no need to raise it at all, not with a sovereign currency, there are real limitations but those are in materials and labour. We cannot run out of the make believe bit but we allow that bit to dictate.
Fair enough, but we have other threads for economic theories. Present fuel duty (and other budget elements) currently operates within whatever the accepted idea is here and now. The On the Road effects might be different.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2018, 03:45:52 pm »
Fuel duty is tax revenue, of course. So the less of it there is, the more taxes have to be raised on something else, like VAT or income tax. Or the more services have to be cut.

Not digging at you but this sort of view is so ingrained, as long as we have no shortages of material or labour then cuts are a choice. In terms of efficiency a very poor one at that.
Not sure what you mean? Obviously cuts, and increases in spending, are a political choice, but if you've decided to spend £xbn then if you don't raise it from here, you raise it from there.

Ian has it, and with the upsurge in interest around MMT, job guarantees and basic incomes, it's becoming harder to advocate the 'traditional' view. There is no need to raise it at all, not with a sovereign currency, there are real limitations but those are in materials and labour. We cannot run out of the make believe bit but we allow that bit to dictate.
Fair enough, but we have other threads for economic theories. Present fuel duty (and other budget elements) currently operates within whatever the accepted idea is here and now. The On the Road effects might be different.

 ;D and I'm not trying to start yet another economics hobby horse but when I see a statement using factually incorrect points to 'accept' that services have to be cut, I feel the need to call it out.
Nuns, no sense of humour

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2018, 11:01:00 pm »
I read that article.

My sympathy for the people in the developments dropped when I read statements along the lines of "It is a mile to the nearest shop so I have no option but to drive everywhere."

Um, a mile. A whole mile. Wow. It would be great if there was an alternative to a car that was easy for a young person to use to travel a mile when they needed to pick up a pint of milk.

Right. Let's play this one out.

If you have a car, but no bike, a mile to the shops to pick up milk == 2mile round trip. Average human walks at 3mph. So that makes it a 40min round trip, maybe 5 mins in the shop, that's 45 mins to get a bottle of milk. Or about 10 mins by car, assuming good parking. That's an easy one to pick.

Now if the person in question had a bike, then it's about 10-15 mins. *BUT* that is predicated on:

- Having a bike in the first place,
- Having somewhere safe to lock up the bike that is quick and easy to get the bike in and out of.
- Having a safe place to cycle it. For many muggle cyclists, riding down the edge of a busy road to get milk is way too scary.
- There being somewhere convenient to lock the bike up at the shop

In an ideal world, everyone on these housing developments would have a nice cargo bike with a box on the front, locked up securely in an easy to get to bike shed. They could then ride to the shops, along a segregated bike lane, lock it up in front of the shop at the Sheffield stand, then after buying milk, they can ride back along the same segregated bike lane, put the bike back in the shed, and resume making the custard for the pie that they needed the milk for.

*BUT* if you miss out any one item in my list of 4 above, you're not going to ride, even if you did have a bike. We need to change the way we build our towns and cities. Developments like this where active travel isn't at the forefront of the design is always going to encourage car ownership.

Even in one of the most cycle centric cities in the world, even tho it's under 2km to the nearest supermarkets, I still often take the metro or tram, rather than cycle, because it's either a faff to get the bike out, or a pain to lock it up. Tho fortunately it would be impossible to drive to said supermarket. There's nowhere to park... and the 5 year wait for a parking permit at home means I don't actually own a car. When I need to drive to Ikea, I just hire a greenwheels for a couple of hours.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2018, 10:34:34 am »
Not all new developments. Most of the new stuff (blocks of flats, not houses) being built around here (SW15) have no or limited parking provision (at most one space per flat in a basement car park) and, more importantly, the residents have no right to apply for on-street parking permits. Most of the blocks have zipcar or similar parking places right outside. The nearest areas where you can park for free (i.e. no CPZ) 24h a day are at least a mile away.

All of this is possible because the local transport links are excellent.
I'm wondering if it is possible to sell such housing even in areas with quite poor transport links.

(My motivation:
- Bus routes always seem to operate in a free market, so operators would lay on more buses through an estate where no one has a car. And
- Strength in Numbers; if a load of cyclists move into an area, it will encourage their neighbours.
)

Lots of people don't have a car, cannot drive, do not want to drive, and/or are choosing their home cos it's walkable/rideable from their new workplace. So SOME people would always want these places.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2018, 11:01:32 am »
Not all new developments. Most of the new stuff (blocks of flats, not houses) being built around here (SW15) have no or limited parking provision (at most one space per flat in a basement car park) and, more importantly, the residents have no right to apply for on-street parking permits. Most of the blocks have zipcar or similar parking places right outside. The nearest areas where you can park for free (i.e. no CPZ) 24h a day are at least a mile away.

All of this is possible because the local transport links are excellent.

Sadly, that's atypical (though encouraging). Here, not so many miles from London, it's a parking free-for-all. There are no on-street parking permits, every development becomes a fight over parking spaces (and the inevitable overflow into surrounding streets which makes a mockery of any planning permissions, people always buy or rent on the assumption they'll find parking somewhere). Ironically, we don't lack for public transport (it's mostly a commuter town, four trains an hour to London), regular bus service to Croydon, less regular to Redhill, East Grinstead and places south. Shuttle bus that runs around the town, and it's mostly compact and walkable (the one thing it generally isn't, is cyclable, too many hills).

No one will, of course, do anything to change the status quo even though it's profoundly negative – too much traffic, too much parking, too much pollution, etc. and all these cars do is enable people to drive somewhere else, thus depleting the local economy.

Of course, the best way to cut back on car reliance is to cut parking...
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2018, 11:06:51 am »
One of the reasons why we live where we do is because there are great bus links into Oxford and that's convenient for my wife. We couldn't live out in one of the villages because of the lack of busses.
On the other hand, there are relatively few tech jobs in that direction, so they are almost irrelevant to me and I drive (or cycle occasionally).
Busses need to be regular and go where you want to go.  If either of those conditions are not met, people won't use them. Parking permits are highly variable - there are none around here, so it's a complete free-for-all. My parents have the same issue local to them - there are plans for new flats on the main road with 1 parking space per 2-3 bedroom flat. The flat occupants will just park around the corner on the other residential roads, completely clogging them up (they are bad enough as it is). Permits don't exist.

I'm someone who drives the 3/4 mile to get a pint of milk. Fundamentally it's because it's supposed to be convenient, and if I'm going to that shop it's because I need the thing I'm buying immediately. In the car, I can be there and back in 5-10 minutes - that's probably quicker than getting a functioning bike out of the garage, finding a suitable bag to carry the milk, my waterproof (it's always raining when I need milk!) and a lock, and neglects the hill I would need to travel up on the way back. There's somewhere to lock the bike at the other end (though I wouldn't want to leave it there for more than a few minutes), and the road isn't too evil. Maybe I'm just lazy?

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2018, 11:53:21 am »
People will always take the path of least resistance, it's human nature, which is why they need the nudges (and why they are utterly terrified of anything that might change that status quo). I live a ten-minute walk from the train station, I confess if I'm back in the evening I'll sometimes just jump in a taxi. I'll mostly walk to town rather than cycle – by the time I've got the bike out of the garage and down the drive and into town, locked to the inconveniently located stand, it's just easier too. Plus it's a narrow heavily parked road and ever journey or two you'll meet an aggressive motorised twunt which while usually not dangerous is just a little bit depressing.

Of course, we picked this place because we didn't want to be confined by driving, we wanted local buses, a train station etc. That involved making a sacrifice on other things.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2018, 12:47:35 pm »
There is an article in the last week on the BBC about people living in new build developments that are trapped in car owner ship because there is no other option. How on earth did the development get planning permission if it doesn't have any local amenities?
I read that article.

My sympathy for the people in the developments dropped when I read statements along the lines of "It is a mile to the nearest shop so I have no option but to drive everywhere."

Um, a mile. A whole mile. Wow. It would be great if there was an alternative to a car that was easy for a young person to use to travel a mile when they needed to pick up a pint of milk.


The quote that caught my eye was from the couple living in a new build development on the edge of Loughborough:

Quote
It can take us up to 20 minutes to drive a mile-and-a-half to work. It's often really hard to turn on to the main road from ours because of the heavy traffic both ways

...erm - you are part of the problem!





vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2018, 09:03:06 pm »
The quote that caught my eye was from the couple living in a new build development on the edge of Loughborough:

Quote
It can take us up to 20 minutes to drive a mile-and-a-half to work. It's often really hard to turn on to the main road from ours because of the heavy traffic both ways

...erm - you are part of the problem!

but it's chicken and egg.  It's too dangerous for average person to ride 1.5 miles because there are too many vehicles
Audaxing Blog follow @vorsprungbike on

Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2018, 09:40:23 pm »
I’m confident the £30bn for new roads over five years will at last solve the UK’s congestion problems once and for all. Road tax should be spent on roads as anyone who can read the label would tell you.

This fuel duty freeze is a heartening interlude on the war on motorists. Don’t forget that faceless ‘motorists’ are usually nurses or electricians who commute across two counties to work every day, sometimes twice a day to two jobs to afford last year’s iPhone for their kids. Driving may soon be cheap and attractive enough to enshrine this unprecedented mobility in British custom if not human rights law. Such mobility enables, nay, practically guarantees economic growth and personal fulfilment. I am very clear that that is what the last half century has taught us.

These improvements probably explain why Hammond didn’t find it necessary to mention electric cars in his new budget.

That's got to be a spoof of some right wing free market nuttary...at least I hope so.





ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2018, 10:14:36 pm »
The quote that caught my eye was from the couple living in a new build development on the edge of Loughborough:

Quote
It can take us up to 20 minutes to drive a mile-and-a-half to work. It's often really hard to turn on to the main road from ours because of the heavy traffic both ways

...erm - you are part of the problem!

but it's chicken and egg.  It's too dangerous for average person to ride 1.5 miles because there are too many vehicles

To be fair, a mile each way is probably teetering on the edge of inconvenience. Possibly that's because we'd become accustomed to having a convenient car, but it's a truism. I live a mile from the train station, I'd say we're outliers for walking there (and even then we'll get a taxi back from the station of an evening, mostly because we want to be home soon-as).

Plus it's not an especially nice walk or cycle. The pavements are blocked, the road narrow. You might get wet and cold, you'll have to step around litter and dog shit. All the stuff you don't get (and don't see) in a car. And all the money we've not invested in the alternatives has been invested in town centre parking (two big car parks by the supermarkets) which still isn't good enough because people, of course, have to pull up right outside. No one is going to park their car properly to go to KFC, they'll stop right outside. That's it's on double-yellows on a roundabout. Well, they're only going to be a minute.

This all said, we cycled through some developments near Ebbsfleet the other year. Just endless houses, no facilities to be seen. Cruddy box-ticking cycling infrastructure painted on the pavements. Despite driveways, there were already cars littering the pavements. I guess that's the modern home-ownership dream. I'd rather eat my own eyeballs.
!nataS pihsroW

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2018, 06:44:20 am »
And all this will be fixed in the medium future by technology.

Self driving cars will eventually make personal car ownership as outdated as personal horse ownership. Just call a car from an uber like app.

They'll be able to move without causing jams, by cooperating at junctions, and no residential parking will be required (or allowed). My estimate a few years ago that people would no longer be allowed to drive by 2055. I've more recently seen estimates as low as within 20 years - not sure I believe that though.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2018, 11:20:49 am »
And all this will be fixed in the medium future by technology.

Self driving cars will eventually make personal car ownership as outdated as personal horse ownership. Just call a car from an uber like app.

They'll be able to move without causing jams, by cooperating at junctions, and no residential parking will be required (or allowed). My estimate a few years ago that people would no longer be allowed to drive by 2055. I've more recently seen estimates as low as within 20 years - not sure I believe that though.

I'm not sure the change will be quick as we think – cars are very tied up in identity, esteem, and status. People don't buy huge main suburban battle tanks because they're practical or necessary.
!nataS pihsroW

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2018, 11:42:11 am »
Self-driving cars are likely to increase the total number of cars, I reckon, and increase the use of each individual car. Once it's easy to drive, or be driven, while doing other stuff (work, shopping, netflix, sleep, breakfast), we'll be able to travel at times when we'd otherwise be doing those things. And we'll be able to load the kids into their car and have it take them to school.

But that's all still a long way off. Long before we get to that stage, we'll have electric cars as the norm. Much cheaper to own, so more of them. And releasing lots of now-unwanted fuel cars on to the market at bargain prices, so further increasing the pool of affordable vehicles* but without the funds to keep them in decent condition.

*Probably lots will get exported to countries without EV infrastructure, compressing half a century of popular motoring growth into a few years. I've already seen this happen with used imports when Poland joined the EU. It's not pretty, and neither are the smashes.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2018, 12:54:49 pm »
I think significant nudges will be required before people willingly give up the status symbol parked outside.

New car economics (regardless of what powers them) are weird anyway. New cars generally aren't affordable, leastways the ones people want, so they're effectively tranches of debt to be suitably derivatized by the financial markets.
!nataS pihsroW

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2018, 01:04:09 pm »
But that's all still a long way off. Long before we get to that stage, we'll have electric cars as the norm. Much cheaper to own, so more of them. And releasing lots of now-unwanted fuel cars on to the market at bargain prices, so further increasing the pool of affordable vehicles* but without the funds to keep them in decent condition.

And with it, a big change that will effect long distance cyclists. Petrol stations will become redundant.

Currently in much of Europe, each village large enough, will have a petrol station. Said petrol station doubles as a local shop for essentials (Milk et al), and in many cases as the local kebab shop. On my way to Hell in September, I ate a hot meal in gas stations twice a day for 10 days as it was the only place open serving food in the remote areas I was in.

These gas stations are sustained because each village of 100ish houses has 100+ cars each of which needs regular top ups with fuel. Once we move to Electric Vehicles, they will get their charge at home. Some gas stations will be able to adapt to become rapid chargers with the accompanying shop, but for the most part, due to the large change in what the clientele are doing, it's going to finally kill off a lot of these gas stations. Which could make things interesting for audaxers and long distance cyclists. Where are we going to have a control at 3am if we don't have 24 hr gas stations?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2018, 01:07:26 pm »
Use the Supermarket delivery service as a support vehicle. Have your shopping delivered to convenient control points in a window you should arrive there and have him stamp your brevet card as proof of passage as well  ;)
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2018, 01:10:40 pm »
Use the Supermarket delivery service as a support vehicle. Have your shopping delivered to convenient control points in a window you should arrive there and have him stamp your brevet card as proof of passage as well  ;)

I don't think Sainsburies deliver at 3am... tho I have had them deliver to a car park before...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Fuel duty freeze
« Reply #74 on: November 03, 2018, 09:35:58 am »
Addison Lee think they will have a self driving taxi in 2 years. When I asked my brother in law (who works in the field) he laughed and said level 5 autonomy is many years away.
Currently, personal car usership is limited to people who can drive, and who can afford to hire or own/insure/tax a car. As taxi prices come down (and self driving cars are essentially automated taxis), that will open up car usership to many more people, thus increasing the number of cars on the road. I find it hard to believe that current car owners will switch to a self driving taxi. Having your own car means you can fill it with your own junk (useful with kids etc), and many people use them as status symbols. Price doesn't really come into it - just because a self driving tax will be cheaper than owning a Focus doesn't mean that an Audi driver is going to want to give up their 4 ringed badge of honour err...
Electric cars are the near future, if the battery supply problems can be sorted. You can order a Hyundai Kona with a 300 mile summer range for around £30k now (delivery next year sometime). The only parts of the reviews that a 2016 Tesla Model S comes ahead of it is in speed (irrelevant) and charging infrastructure (and with 300 miles, how much do you need?).