Author Topic: The cost of utility cycling  (Read 2007 times)

The cost of utility cycling
« on: January 16, 2019, 01:47:10 pm »
Just pondering really. On a website that does utility and cargo bikes and saw a chariot cycle trailer and was near on £800. My Burley Bee was over £200 when I got it 7 years ago

I was wondering with this and baikfiets and similar all seemingly £1000 up are people going to see these prices and think actually I could get a car for that. I've had several cars I've bought,taxes and insured for my less.

If we are serious about getting people out of cars and into bikes would lower costs help. I guess it's a big chicken and egg with supply and demand

whosatthewheel

Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2019, 01:53:20 pm »
A special incentive for cargo bikes, something beyond C2W is overdue... I cycle in front of a school and at rush hour the road is virtually blocked.

I don't think that someone considering a car worth a grand is the same person that would buy a cargo bike... two different demographics... we are talking educated middle class... if they buy a car, it's either an SUV or an hybrid, depending on where they stand on the pollution fence. They are not however folks buying a 05 plated Vauxhall corsa.

Besides, owning a car costs a lot more than owning a bike, any bike. I have about 600 pounds per year of fixed costs... just to keep the car in the garage

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2019, 02:49:04 pm »
A special incentive for cargo bikes, something beyond C2W is overdue... I cycle in front of a school and at rush hour the road is virtually blocked.

The electric vehicle subsidy applying to e-bikes would be a good start.  I'd be in favour of zero-rating the VAT on public health grounds, but I don't think that's possible unless we leave the EU, in which case none of us will be able to afford bikes anyway.


Quote
I don't think that someone considering a car worth a grand is the same person that would buy a cargo bike... two different demographics... we are talking educated middle class... if they buy a car, it's either an SUV or an hybrid, depending on where they stand on the pollution fence. They are not however folks buying a 05 plated Vauxhall corsa.

I dunno, the educated middle class have form for bangernomics.  It's easy to run a car into the ground if you've got enough in the bank to go out and buy a new one tomorrow.  Mostly seems to depend on whether your particular flavour of middle class places importance on cars as status symbols, or is sufficiently secure in its identity not to have to care.


Quote
Besides, owning a car costs a lot more than owning a bike, any bike. I have about 600 pounds per year of fixed costs... just to keep the car in the garage

The real battle is the perception that bikes cost a hundred quid or so, and that you have to pay people a reasonable hourly rate to repair them.  And that you won't die utterly to DETH if you ride one on the road to wherever it is you need to get to, of course.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2019, 04:11:05 pm »
Let's face it, most cars travel a big portion of their miles with 1 person in them. A sensible rack and some panniers and you can carry most of what you need. How much does a child carrier to go on the rack cost (when they are too big, they can ride their own)? That's the majority of utility cycling. That also seems to be what you see in pictures of Copenhagen or Amsterdam or wherever.

I think that when you start talking about esoteric cycles that allow you to do stuff that normally you can't do on a bike, you end up putting people off. So the electric bikes that mean you can commute 20 miles each way, or the bakfiets that means you can carry 3 kids or really big objects, or whatever other circumstances you want (tandems?) - these are specialist requirements needing specialist vehicles. Most people don't need one, don't have anywhere to put one, and wouldn't use it if it were free.

IMO, facilities that make utility cycling easy and low risk are the beginning, middle, and end of utility cycling.  As the superhighways show - build it and they will come! ;)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2019, 04:31:03 pm »
IMO, facilities that make utility cycling easy and low risk are the beginning, middle, and end of utility cycling.  As the superhighways show - build it and they will come! ;)

For those who can ride any old BSO, I agree.  Some people will need or prefer a more specialised cycle, or require policy changes (everything from petty school rules to DWP sanctions culture) to enable them to cycle.  But they also need the infra, just like everyone else.

Normalise cycling, and specialised cycling just becomes another part of normal.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2019, 04:37:07 pm »
Infrastructure is certainly important.  Regarding the bikes I was in decathlon last week and have a very practical range of bikes for going to the shops or school run for not much. Yes more then £100 quid but certainly affordable.

However my Facebook for example the adverts for utility or cargo bikes are all high end. I think a value electric bike would be a brilliant thing for the non sporting riders

Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2019, 04:43:37 pm »
Just had a look. The B Twin elops 520 looks the perfect bike for use as a transport vehicle.

rr

Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2019, 04:47:00 pm »
And don't forget elephant bikes

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


Kim

  • Timelord
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2019, 04:50:52 pm »
However my Facebook for example the adverts for utility or cargo bikes are all high end.

I think that's simply because Facebook has worked out that you're a cycling enthusiast.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2019, 05:03:02 pm »
Normalise cycling, and specialised cycling just becomes another part of normal.
Exactly. And specialist cycles suddenly become a motability thing, or a "hardworking families" thing, rather than some luxury treehugger green premium thing. Plus, if it's safe you can get kids out of bakfiets and onto their own bikes much earlier.

Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2019, 06:17:48 pm »
So the million dollar question is how do you normalise cycling?

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2019, 06:18:49 pm »
So the million dollar question is how do you normalise cycling?

Take the cars away.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2019, 07:27:07 pm »
I posted a photo taken outside a nursery in central Tokyo on another thread -



That's a row of e-bikes. The streets are full of 'em over there. See the child seats?

Car ownership in Japan is almost exactly the same as in the UK. One big difference I see is that there are bugger-all places to park a car, compared to here. You won't use a car if there's nowhere to park it at the other end, & parking on the street will get it towed away pronto. And if your friendly local railway station has this (yes, it is a three storey covered bike park, & that's nothing out of the ordinary) -


Why not cycle to the station & get the train?
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 10:19:53 pm »
So the million dollar question is how do you normalise cycling?

Quit pissing around with plastic hat evangelism, victim blaming and associated educational failings.

Educate drivers that cycling is normal, that cyclists have a right to the use the road. Then make cycling easier than driving.

Oh, and while all that is going on, fix the infrastructure. That means segregated cycle lanes, none of this magic paint shit. Actual proper infrastructure. Proper bike parking, not round the back by the bins, but out front where people can see them (harder to take an angle grinder to a bike lock in the middle of a crowded street). Pay people about 19c per km to cycle to work...

I wonder where has rolled out policies like the above...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 10:33:42 pm »
Raise fuel duty to kill the English fantasy that motoring everywhere is not sustainable.

We used to have mass cycling in this country. This was replaced with mass motoring which has been subsidised by the state to the exclusion of being able to safely cycle from A to B. It can't go on, the sacred cow of gas guzzling, space sucking transport has to be slain.
Bikepacking bargain basement: reviews of high value kit great for the tourer, bikepacker and randonneur on a budget

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=109048.msg2312359#msg2312359

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2019, 10:46:38 pm »
Raise fuel duty to kill the English fantasy that motoring everywhere is not sustainable.

We used to have mass cycling in this country. This was replaced with mass motoring which has been subsidised by the state to the exclusion of being able to safely cycle from A to B. It can't go on, the sacred cow of gas guzzling, space sucking transport has to be slain.

You'd think that, but in .nl fuel is cheaper than .uk...

Increase the fuel duty and you make it harder for the rural poor who have limited access to pubic transport and where distances are too great for most muggles to cycle. Why use a stick when you can use the carrot. Reward people who cycle to work (see 19c per km incentive), make bikes VAT exempt. etc...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2019, 11:15:29 pm »
Raise fuel duty to kill the English fantasy that motoring everywhere is not sustainable.

We used to have mass cycling in this country. This was replaced with mass motoring which has been subsidised by the state to the exclusion of being able to safely cycle from A to B. It can't go on, the sacred cow of gas guzzling, space sucking transport has to be slain.

You'd think that, but in .nl fuel is cheaper than .uk...

Increase the fuel duty and you make it harder for the rural poor who have limited access to pubic transport and where distances are too great for most muggles to cycle. Why use a stick when you can use the carrot. Reward people who cycle to work (see 19c per km incentive), make bikes VAT exempt. etc...

J
Powered by the pelvic thrust?
An ungovernable laughter, a joyous agitation which makes the summer stretching before you seem like an unrolling canvas on which you might draw those first rude pure strokes that are free. (Capote)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2019, 11:19:38 pm »
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2019, 11:25:05 pm »
access to pubic transport
Powered by the pelvic thrust?

Fscking autocarrot.

J
A fucking pubic autocarrot? Hmm, I think this has gone all NSFW!
An ungovernable laughter, a joyous agitation which makes the summer stretching before you seem like an unrolling canvas on which you might draw those first rude pure strokes that are free. (Capote)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2019, 11:54:05 pm »
access to pubic transport
Powered by the pelvic thrust?

Fscking autocarrot.

J
A fucking pubic autocarrot? Hmm, I think this has gone all NSFW!

Autocorrect... argh!

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2019, 12:32:55 am »


You'd think that, but in .nl fuel is cheaper than .uk...

Increase the fuel duty and you make it harder for the rural poor who have limited access to pubic transport and where distances are too great for most muggles to cycle. Why use a stick when you can use the carrot. Reward people who cycle to work (see 19c per km incentive), make bikes VAT exempt. etc...

J

Tax private parking spaces, say at offices, get rid of as much free parking as you can. Basically you want to make it such that public transport (spell cheque this time), cycling, and walking, are the most cost effective, and fastest forms of travel. The revenue from taxing the parking spaces, you can use to subsidise the buses and trains. And while you're at it, nationalise the public transport, stop pissing around trying to run it as a profit, and run it as a service, same way we do roads. If you want someone to take the bus into town rather than the car, they need to be able to get the bus home again. At midnight. Cycle parking at bus stops, esp in rural areas is also a good idea.

I realise none of this will happen, but there's a reason I'm a quixotic geek...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2019, 07:20:32 am »
The roads are pretty private, really. The various local authorities and highways England etc contract out upgrades and maintenance. Yes they're free at point of use but the private sector is enormously involved in their maintenance.

In some parts of the land, maintenance of the network is nearly totally handed over to contractors to look after https://news.eastsussex.gov.uk/2015/12/15/green-light-for-new-300m-highways-contract/
Bikepacking bargain basement: reviews of high value kit great for the tourer, bikepacker and randonneur on a budget

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=109048.msg2312359#msg2312359

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2019, 08:55:05 am »
...

The revenue from taxing the parking spaces, you can use to subsidise the buses and trains. And while you're at it, nationalise the public transport, stop pissing around trying to run it as a profit, and run it as a service, same way we do roads. If you want someone to take the bus into town rather than the car, they need to be able to get the bus home again. At midnight.
Indeedy. The UK has already seen what happens if you try to run public transport using the "Free market" - Beeching Closures!

We need the opposite - as you say, buses that run not just at 0830 and 1600; but also bus services already running when people move into new build estates. Otherwise they have to buy a car - who can blame them??

(How the hell the UK is building new estates without safe walking/cycling provision is another mind-numbing discussion that has already come up somewhere on here.)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2019, 09:00:57 am »
The irony is that they also build new estates without sufficient car parking provision, even though they really know no-one will use the infrequent buses.  Sometimes they chuck in a couple of bike stands* at the request of the planners to compensate for the lack of even one-car per-dwelling parking (common for blocks of flats).  The bike stand remains empty and unused and the cars go on the pavement.

* would you leave any half decent bike parked outside all night in a shared area?  It would get stolen or stamped on.

Never tell me the odds.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: The cost of utility cycling
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2019, 10:56:40 am »
An ungovernable laughter, a joyous agitation which makes the summer stretching before you seem like an unrolling canvas on which you might draw those first rude pure strokes that are free. (Capote)