Author Topic: Shimano Tiagra or 105  (Read 1376 times)

Tim Hall

  • I want to eat the fleeting shade of your lashes
Shimano Tiagra or 105
« on: January 22, 2019, 04:16:26 pm »
I'm in the process of speccing up a New! Shiny! bike. Traditional steel, with lugs, like god intended. Light touring, hopeful audax, that kind of thing.  I'm mithering over the choice of groupset. The bike it replaces had a mix of 105 and Tiagra with a Spa cycles triple chainset.


I understand 105 is only available in 11 speed, which is a bit new fangled for me.  Tiagra is 10 speed in double or triple. From what I've read so far, Tiagra isn't far behind 105, if at all, in terms of performance, with the possible exception of braking.   I suspect the current Tiagra brakes will be better than the mix of 17 year old 105 calipers and 105 5703 levers though.

I don't like the look of external bearing chainsets on a traditional frame. Am I dismissing a superior technological solution on aesthetics? UN5x bottom brackets Just Work.

Having got that waffle out of the way, what does the panel think? 105 or Tiagra? Or other? Square taper or external bearing? Shimano chainset or other (Spa for example)?


There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2019, 04:27:30 pm »


105 allows you an upgrade path to Ultegra or Dura Ace if you feel like it.

Tiagra allows you the option of a triple, but it's the only 10 speed set in the shimano range.

I prefer External bottom brackets, but I think it's a personal taste thing as much as anything else.

Brake wise, I went for discs so can't really offer any advice here.

My current bike has Tiagra 2x10. My next bike is going to be a Di2 mix of XT Running gear, with ultegra shifters.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2019, 04:35:22 pm »
I'd keep the drivetrain Shimano. The chainwheels are ramped for smooth shifting.

Check brake clearances for guards and wider tyres.

If it's a choice between Tiagra and 105, then it is a decision about 10 or 11 speed, as beyond that they are both good groupsets.

Some people are put off by slightly faster wear of 11sp chains...but chains are £12, and the extra gears are handy.

Triples are for mountain bikes and heavy touring.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2019, 04:47:18 pm »
Some people are put off by slightly faster wear of 11sp chains...but chains are £12, and the extra gears are handy.

What chains are you getting for 12 quid? My 10 speed chain is €38, and the 11 speed version is €45. I get about 4500km out of the 10 speed KMC X10SL. Don't know what I'll get from the 11speed yet.

Quote
Triples are for mountain bikes and heavy touring.

I'd disagree. I'd say they are just for heavy touring...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2019, 04:57:35 pm »
SRAM 11sp from Planet x


Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2019, 05:06:32 pm »
I'd say if you like a triple and 10 speed you need to travel back in time and get Campag!
My 30 speed franken-mix of Race triple front mech, Veloce shifters, Mirage rear derailleur and Centaur triple chainset is still going strong after many years of service.

However, you could match a Tiagra drivetrain to a triple chainset from Spa Cycles or the like.
There are plenty of good quality ramped and pinned chainrings from Stronglight and TA which have the advantage of being more hardwearing than Shimano and a lot cheaper.

Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2019, 05:30:04 pm »
I'd say if you like a triple and 10 speed you need to travel back in time and get Campag!
My 30 speed franken-mix of Race triple front mech, Veloce shifters, Mirage rear derailleur and Centaur triple chainset is still going strong after many years of service.

I might have a NOS 10-speed Campagnolo triple crankset going spare (square taper), as well as a NOS Campagnolo Triple Front Derailleur if going that route - was going to put a triple on the Mercian Strada Speciale road bike I have on order, but think I'm just going to put a compact on it. I have a Campagnolo Comp Triple with 50/40/30 rings in 175mm and also a set of Record Triple cranks (w/o chainrings) in 170mm. I might want to keep the latter, though. Both are NOS and look stunning in polished silver alloy (factory clear coated). Let me know if interested and I can send some photos.

Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2019, 05:52:58 pm »
if you like triples then the tiagra 4703 is a good choice. The only thing is that the Tiagra chainrings are a bit big for touring on; with a typical 10s cassette you will get lots of high gears that are (for touring) not of much use and you may find yourself short of really low gears too. But gearing is a matter of personal taste of course.  If you custom assemble a cassette with sprockets to your choice you can have what you like more or less (especially if you use a gear hanger extender).

OBB bearings are easy to change, don't cost much and respond to TLC quite well.  So provided you don't have complete antipathy to preventative maintenance/occasional replacement they can work OK.

Tiagra 10s uses the same shift ratio for the RD as 'road' 11s; this means that you can upgrade to a more hard-wearing RD when the tiagra one wears out. The use of an 8/9/10s rear hub makes the wheel stronger than an 11s one in 130mm OLN form and of course in 135mm OLN form the wheel would be strong anyway.

FWIW Tiagra 4700 is currently the 'oldest' of shimano's top tier road groupsets and is probably going to be replaced (possibly with a non-triple 11s version, who knows)  at the end of this year.  So it might be a case of 'get it while you can' if you want a triple at this quality level.

cheers

Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2019, 07:10:50 pm »
I have ten speed 105 road shifters (cable under bar tape) and rear derailleur mated to an MTB triple chainset, external bottom bracket. Works for me.
Bread of heaven, bread of heaven.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2019, 08:15:48 pm »
I love my tiagra bike. Accommodates an 11-32 which makes even the chonkiest climbs a cakewalk. Having had it since November still not much the wiser of what I'm missing out on 💁‍♂️
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2019, 09:46:37 pm »
Not a lot of difference in performance between recent Tiagra and 105, so go with whatever you can get hold of, at the best price.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2019, 10:21:07 pm »
if you like triples then the tiagra 4703 is a good choice. The only thing is that the Tiagra chainrings are a bit big for touring on; with a typical 10s cassette you will get lots of high gears that are (for touring) not of much use and you may find yourself short of really low gears too. But gearing is a matter of personal taste of course.  If you custom assemble a cassette with sprockets to your choice you can have what you like more or less (especially if you use a gear hanger extender).

Agreed. With a Tiagra 2x10, lowest Gear you can get with just Tiagra 4700 parts is a 34/34. Which many seem to think is plenty low enough, but I feel is still too high. Some have got a 11-36 cassette to fit on the Tiagra RD.

I've not tried with Tiagra, but a friend has got an 11-40 cassette to work with a 105 RD and a 50/34 chainset, by using a wolf tooth road link.

I love my tiagra bike. Accommodates an 11-32 which makes even the chonkiest climbs a cakewalk. Having had it since November still not much the wiser of what I'm missing out on 💁‍♂️

I have the Tiagra 11-34 at the back, and a Deore XT 28-40 at the front, and find that on many hills it's not enough. Each to their own tho (See other threads for much discussion about this one).

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2019, 11:40:43 pm »
Yeah I should think the wolf tooth + 42-11 rear cassette a la the most recent arrivée would be necessary going further than that. Never messed with wolf's teeth so far though.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


T42

  • Tea tank
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2019, 08:05:44 am »
Tech thoughts apart, I find my 2x11 transmission much more fun than my old 3x10. Only criticism I have is that I would swap the 11T sprocket on my 11-32 for a 15T - the  range of closely-spaced ratios is a bit too short.

I wouldn't want another 3x10.

Re chain life, my last chain (Ultegra) did 7500 km before I junked it, with the Park gauge showing 0.75% stretch.  But then we old wrecks don't push very hard.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2019, 08:55:59 am »
I agree with What Adam said above.  All of the options will be ok. 

If you don't want external bearings then a Spa / Stronglight chainset will be fine. 

Decide what gearing you want then see what the options are.  Personally I wouldn't bother with a triple as you can get the range with a cassette, but some people prefer them to get closer spaced gears - either is a valid choice. 

11sp is nothing to be scared of.  Link to cheap 11sp chains above is very useful.  Other thing worth knowing if you want to re-use (Shimano) wheels you already have is that while you can't use an 11sp road cassette on a 9/10 speed wheel, you can use an 11sp mountain bike cassette.

Good luck with the build!

Carlosfandango

  • Yours fragrantly.
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2019, 10:19:52 am »
I`ve got Shimano Ultegra 11 speed on one bike and 24 year old Shimano 9 speed on my tourer and I think the 9 speed is perfect for touring, easy to set up, no chain rub, it`s indexed, shifts much better than the 11 speed, is massively more durable and consumables are much cheaper. Spa cycles have super compact chainsets. I run a 30/46 :thumbsup:

Martin

  • Give me bas relief
    • WWW
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2019, 10:31:00 am »
I think the latest Shimano trick is to badge the old version as the new lower end groupset; eg old Tiagra became new Sora just a different colour. This may be what's happened with 105 >Tiagra

I had a similar dilemma with my old RX100 groupset, as bits wore out I was torn between 105 and Tiagra.

There used to be R500 IIRC which was old 105 8 speed but not branded as anything other than just Shimano, do they still make an equivalent? I liked not having mismatched names it all just said Shimano apart from the calipers which are the only remaining bit of the original RX100

Don't think Campag make long reach calipers either

Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2019, 10:36:33 am »
I think the latest Shimano trick is to badge the old version as the new lower end groupset; eg old Tiagra became new Sora just a different colour. This may be what's happened with 105 >Tiagra….

there is often an element of truth in that but Tiagra 4700 is an exception; the shifters are 'the new style' and the rear shift ratio of the system is as per 11s not as per any previous 10s version.

cheers

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2019, 11:03:11 am »
Yeah, question is whether having introduced 11s pull ratio on one 10s set, they're going to introduce it to all other groupsets in time.
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

Martin

  • Give me bas relief
    • WWW
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2019, 11:18:26 am »
I don't like the look of external bearing chainsets on a traditional frame. Am I dismissing a superior technological solution on aesthetics? UN5x bottom brackets Just Work.

Hollowtech has many advantages (weight, wider bracket so less wear? simplicity) but it's all held together by 2 Allen bolts which have to be done up so tight you can't often then get them undone and a flimsy spline. I've had one completely fail and another almost whilst on long rides.

If you don't like them you are left with Octalink (which I think only Claris now has but MBW) or non Shimano which is not ideal either as you lose all that nice slick indexing.

Or old stock Tiagra (which did use Octalink) if you really want to fill JE James's coffers and will only be 9 speed

Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 11:39:46 am »
there is often an element of truth in that but Tiagra 4700 is an exception; the shifters are 'the new style' and the rear shift ratio of the system is as per 11s not as per any previous 10s version.

Having compared them side by side, as far as I can tell the 105 5800 and Tiagra 4700 shifters are identical bar whatever ratchet piece inside determines the number of speeds. So it’s trickle down just as before.

(The current Sora and Claris shifters also look identical to the higher grades too, at least in pictures. I’d love to know if there are any more subtle differences)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2019, 11:43:25 am »
Tech thoughts apart, I find my 2x11 transmission much more fun than my old 3x10. Only criticism I have is that I would swap the 11T sprocket on my 11-32 for a 15T - the  range of closely-spaced ratios is a bit too short.

If you get a shimano 14-28 junior cassette, and the ultegra cassette of your choosing, (for this example, I'll use the 11-34), take the 3 loose cogs from the junior set and replace the 3 loose cogs on the 11-34 cassette, you now have a cassette with: 14,15,16,17,19,21,23,25,27,30,34. 4 cogs only 1 tooth apart, then 2 tooth steps upto the 27, then the jumps happen for your real slogging up a climb gears...

Quote
I wouldn't want another 3x10.

Re chain life, my last chain (Ultegra) did 7500 km before I junked it, with the Park gauge showing 0.75% stretch.  But then we old wrecks don't push very hard.

Which chain are you using? I'm using the KMC X10SL, and only get about 4500km. But I'm not great at cleaning it, which no doubt shortens it's life...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2019, 12:19:12 pm »
there is often an element of truth in that but Tiagra 4700 is an exception; the shifters are 'the new style' and the rear shift ratio of the system is as per 11s not as per any previous 10s version.

Having compared them side by side, as far as I can tell the 105 5800 and Tiagra 4700 shifters are identical bar whatever ratchet piece inside determines the number of speeds. So it’s trickle down just as before.

5800 looks very similar to 4700 for sure but my point was that  it isn't as described upthread (in which the new version of one groupset is like the old version of another); if it were then 4700 would be like 5700, and it isn't. The 4700 groupset was launched no more than a year after 5800. 

Anyway from a future-proofing standpoint the interesting thing is what the new Tiagra will be like when it arrives, probably later on this year. 

BTW I can't help but notice that shimano have left room for additonal midrange groupsets in their nomenclature; new 105 is R7000 and there is a big gap to R3000 Sora.  Maybe they are planning more than just new Tiagra in the midrange? Maybe a roadified R5000 version of the U5000 Metrea groupset?

cheers




Re: Shimano Tiagra or 105
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 12:58:37 pm »

If you don't want external bearings then a Spa / Stronglight chainset will be fine. 


Be careful which chain you use though.

I built up Mrs trekkers touring bike with Tiagra4700 triple and a Spa chainset. I typically use KMC 10 speed chains. In this case it was slipping in between the chain rings and I had all sorts of set up and tuning problems with it (there's a thread on here somewhere about it). I gave up and bought a Tiagra chainset with external bearings and it's been brilliant ever since.

I believe the Shimano chain is slightly wider than the KMC 10 speed so would result in better performance and not have the problem I had but rather than try the cheaper option to buy a Shimano chain I went down the more expensive route and changed the chainset instead so cannot prove this theory.

Other than that we have a couple of bikes with Tiagra 4700 10 speed in double and triple varieties, and a couple with old 105 10 speed and the Tiagra is so good I really wouldn't bother (and haven't) with the extra cost of the latest 105.
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