Author Topic: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP  (Read 1792 times)

whosatthewheel

Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2019, 01:11:21 pm »
Also, while in some cities (London, Manchester? Oxford?) you can operate perfectly well without a car, almost everywhere else has such paucity of public transport that living without a car is a challenge.  I bet there are a lot of people on YACF who manage it it, but for much of the country it's somewhere between awkward and impossible (maybe unless you are a dedicated cyclist). You can't remove car dependence without addressing this head-on. That's a different discussion though.

I commute by cycling between two fairly large cities... 12 miles apart. There is only one bus per hour and the last is around 6PM. The question is whether the service is so infrequent because there is no demand (buses are always half empty) or there is no demand because the service is too infrequent.
I suspect operators will tell you that it's the former and customers will tell you that it's the latter... chicken and egg situation. The only way to get out of it would be to subsidise a more frequent service for one year and see if that changes anything.

I will continue to cycle regardless, but I would use the bus in case of bad weather, whereas now I drive when it's icy or it's just too wet to bother

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2019, 01:17:16 pm »
The massive reduction in drink driving hasn't happened because people were worried about getting caught. It happened because it became socially unacceptable to go out drinking and then drive. If driving while using a phone is a problem on a similar scale, then it needs the same treatment.

Yes.  Starter for 10:  If you find yourself in a phone call with someone driving a motor vehicle, tell them to call back when they're not.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2019, 01:33:00 pm »
And therein lies the reason for lenient sentences.

Judges and juries alike sit there thinking "Blimey. That could have been me driving." Rather than "Blimey. That could have been me cycling."

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2019, 01:59:44 pm »
Also, while in some cities (London, Manchester? Oxford?) you can operate perfectly well without a car, almost everywhere else has such paucity of public transport that living without a car is a challenge.  I bet there are a lot of people on YACF who manage it it, but for much of the country it's somewhere between awkward and impossible (maybe unless you are a dedicated cyclist). You can't remove car dependence without addressing this head-on. That's a different discussion though.

I commute by cycling between two fairly large cities... 12 miles apart. There is only one bus per hour and the last is around 6PM. The question is whether the service is so infrequent because there is no demand (buses are always half empty) or there is no demand because the service is too infrequent.
I suspect operators will tell you that it's the former and customers will tell you that it's the latter... chicken and egg situation. The only way to get out of it would be to subsidise a more frequent service for one year and see if that changes anything.

I will continue to cycle regardless, but I would use the bus in case of bad weather, whereas now I drive when it's icy or it's just too wet to bother

It takes much longer than a year to change people's behaviour. Unless you hurry them up with charges or other penalties.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2019, 09:06:12 am »
You have to do something to tackle the "Getting caught won't happen to me" crowd. It doesn't matter if the penalty for getting caught is massive, if the liklihood of getting caught is low then people will do it.

The massive reduction in drink driving hasn't happened because people were worried about getting caught. It happened because it became socially unacceptable to go out drinking and then drive. If driving while using a phone is a problem on a similar scale, then it needs the same treatment.

I can't speak for the UK, but I do remember the big drive to reduce drink-driving in Oz. Two-headed campaign. Advertising "Have a skipper, mate", where the 'skipper' was the 'hero' of the group, the person who had volunteered to not drink, so he could drive his mates. Loads of adverts on prime time, making a big deal of it.
Second head were random breathalizing people. Police just pulled over cars on-mass and breathalized the drivers.

It worked.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2019, 09:21:20 am »
Unfortunately for most road crime, we treat it as a minor admonishment. Speeding? Frowny face for you, good sir. The police might have a few words. It's like drivers are misbehaving schoolchildren and not in fact adults deliberately and often aggressively misusing tonnes of machinery.
!nataS pihsroW

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2019, 01:24:13 pm »
It's like you see on forms:  "Have you ever been convicted of a crime (other than a motoring offence)?"
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2019, 04:52:58 pm »
The 'funny' at the end of the news earlier – man so pissed he crashed his car because he thought he saw an octopus. Ha ha.
!nataS pihsroW

fd3

Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2019, 04:57:53 pm »

But rather than wait until someone is dead, perhaps it's time now to think how we stop mobile phone and bad driving. That frankly requires better enforcement and more significant punishments for minor stuff.

Already raised upthread is “what do you do with someone who continues to drive when banned?”, I think this links with your point, namely that we need to work on the re-education and reintegration side of the penal system.  The problem there is that we can’t get people to vote for the funding for the police to arrest criminals (or in fact agree to police the laws that are “a war on motorists”)  let alone the catch slogan “raise taxes to spend on criminals!”.  Unless we significantly increase our spending on law enforcement and invest in stopping reoffending we are stuck.  As we can’t fund the nhs or schools I think that we have to look elsewhere from policing and punishment/re-education.  Potentially along the lines of social stigma.

Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2019, 06:53:51 pm »
Current motoring legislation punishes the action on the basis of the consequences rather than the act. Drive dangerously, get lucky and nothing happens. Do this often enough and bad habits form such that it is no longer dangerous driving in the eyes of the perpetrator.

Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2019, 08:27:08 am »
The 'funny' at the end of the news earlier – man so pissed he crashed his car because he thought he saw an octopus. Ha ha.

Oh ho ho. What a cheeky chappy.  :facepalm:

Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2019, 01:25:49 pm »
Some people might be able to 'afford' 10 weeks in prison. They might be able to keep their job, house, relationship.

30 weeks is different. I suspect that few employers would wait for 30 weeks for an employee, and a lot of people would struggle to keep up mortgage payments without an income for 30 weeks. 30 weeks is also (I imagine) harder on a relationship than 10.

Without going too far off topic, we (as a people) still don't agree on the point of our criminal justice system. At the very least, I think we have to separate it from the process of electing our politicians. And then we need to get more imaginative with how we deal with offenders - and I don't necessarily mean we should cut anything off.

But I don't know what would stop someone doing something they know could kill another. In a sophisticated society, that alone should be a deterrent. If it isn't (and it isn't), tinkering with sentences is largely pointless.
12 months of weekend jail seems about right. Every friday after work report to jail. Released on monday ti go to work.

The constant reminder in the workplace that Dave can't do whatever at the weekend or Friday night because he has jail might help the deterant factor on others.
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2019, 01:30:14 pm »
But when would he ride his bike?!?

(Actually, that's not a bad idea - especially for a non-parent. It fits my ideas about raising awareness amongst their peers  :thumbsup: )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2019, 04:03:11 pm »
The text on that link says that the driver (Gruber) was sentenced to six weeks, suspended for 18 months, ordered to carry out 80 hours' community service, was banned from driving for 15 months and ordered to take an extended test.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2019, 04:16:08 pm »
So much for speed reading..

If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Punishment for serious collisions was Re: Carol Boardman, RIP
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2019, 11:15:33 am »
Speed reading should be criminalised.  Convicted offenders should be sentenced to read the Daily Mail, crossing out all the "o's" in "chaos".  How many pages they are given will depend on the speed of the original reading.