Author Topic: PBP pace planning  (Read 5693 times)

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2019, 07:16:01 pm »
Slightly off topic, but does anyone know how control timings work for PBP? The The ACP RULES OF BREVETS RANDONNEURS MONDIAUX (from 200km to 1000km) state:
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Article 10 :
Opening: 34 km / h (km 1 to 200); 32 km / h (km 201 to 400); 30 km / h (km 401 to 600); 28 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
Closing: 1 hour + 20 km / h (km 1 to 60); 15 km / h (km 61 to 600); 11.428 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.

But applying those rules to the  published times for PBP 11  (so I can confirm my maths) doesn't work, Even simple calculations for closing times for the first few controls at the 15km/h minimum speed quickly fall apart.

For instance, for an 18:00 Sunday start:
   Montagne at 140KM @ 15km/h = 9.33h (9h 20m – closes at Mon 03:20) matches ACP's time, as do the times for next three controls.
   Tinteniac at 364km @15km/h = 24.26h (24h 16m – closes at Tue 18:16) doesn't match – ACP says 18:38, and times are out for the remainder of controls < 600km.

Am I overlooking something here, or does ACP just fudge the control times for some reason?

PBP does not fall into any of those distance classifications.

The minimum speed required gradually drops towards Brest then drops even further as you return. For instance in the 90hr the minimum overall average to Brest was 14.15km/h in 2015. There are different requirements for the 84hr and 80hr groups.

Zed43

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2019, 07:19:47 pm »
So if you take the ACP rule of 15 kph upto 600km your either on or ahead of schedule of the PBP rules? That would work for me wrt planning (yes, I like spreadsheets too)

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2019, 07:42:00 pm »
I can't do this laissez faire see how you feel malarkay.
I like a plan, and I aim to stick to the plan. Sometimes it goes to shit, but generally, the plan works.
This is partly because I don't sleep in bus shelters. I like to have a shower and sleep in a bed, ideally only sharing a room someone I know and like. This generally means I'll book somewhere off piste to sleep where I can escape from the event and recharge.

Horses, as they say, for courses.
The 2011 & 2015 spreadsheets will be dusted off and updated, and the 2019 edition will be running on my phone for me to check during ride. If the schedule says we eat, we eat. If the schedule says we sleep, we sleep. The driver gets more leeway and extra naps because I'll do the admin and chores off the bike.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2019, 07:50:29 pm »
The driver gets more leeway and extra naps because I'll do the admin and chores off the bike.

Mmmm... extra naps. Zzzzz...

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2019, 08:10:18 pm »
I can't do this laissez faire see how you feel malarkay.
I like a plan, and I aim to stick to the plan.

I remember meeting you at Villaines on the way back in 2011. I was riding steadily towards a daytime finish. You seemed to be on a bit of a caffeine high, and targeting 84 hours. So I recalibrated my pace towards that target myself. I think you had two hours on me at that point, as you were in the free-start.

There had been some possibility that I might have needed to help the Crawford tandem out, as Colin had terrible saddle-soreness, and Sonya had to finish for purposes of morale, following a cancer diagnosis. Arrangements were in hand for a complex swap, so I was free to press on.

I did 83.50, and you did 83.39.

A lot of plans changed in 2011, due to favourable winds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INaQh_TVp7w

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2019, 08:38:39 pm »
I wrote myself a schedule and sellotaped it to the inside of the lid of my bar bag in 2011, when I rode my mountain bike.
I liked it because I'd done the math at home, not out on the road when I'm tired, so I could just get on and enjoy the ride.
The main reason was to have a low speed to aim for and that if I rode as slow as approx 20kph and kept my stop time down to what I had on my schedule, I would get a full night's sleep on all but the 1st night.
I never started above pace and rode with a heart rate monitor so that I didn't start too hard. It felt silly easy and I often went into the middle chainring for easy climbs as lots or riders flew past. I never overtook a single rider on the road until 400km. But because I never went so hard on the bike and ate on the move (except for a scheduled hour at a roadside restaurant/bar each day) I was never in need of food or rest at controls and always felt eager to press on.
I had a good (8hr IIRC) sleep at Cahraix and arrived at Brest with about an hour in hand, but feeling good. I was scheduled my daily meal at Brest, but it looked like a long trek to the food at the control, so I hit the road and had a leisurely feed at Sizun.
Because of the slower minimum speed for the return, I scheduled for a slightly lower riding  speed, but my speed didn't really drop, which meant more time to spend at cafes etc. But, because I never rode so hard on the way out and could still ride pretty relaxed, I was more eager to press on than rest. I got a bit ahead of schedule, which allowed a large beer at around 10am. That meant I needed to stop in a grass verge for a snooze not long after ;D But by then, I knew it wasn't going to be that tough to finish and I was going for maximum enjoyent. I did get into a group on the last night with the late Dave Lewis and ended up going full tilt for a while until we got to the control. That was foolish, but it was fun! Dave pressed on to the finish, but as it was night time and my legs were shot I didn't see the point in pushing through the night to arrive at the finish in the early hours. So I bought a large beer and went to bed.
Up ealry the next morning, riding past lots of people sleeping on the roadside, then stopped for a leisurely coffee+cake before the last few miles, passing more sleeping bodies at the roadside. I was tired, but not wrecked and I never felt bad for the whole ride. I did have ups and downs, just never felt that bad.

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2019, 09:30:13 pm »
Early UK PBP riders tended to be long-distance time triallists. So they had time and distance equations running in their heads throughout most of their serious rides. There wasn't a lot else to think about before the distractions of technology, and converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion.

I can see the use of spreadsheets for those who aren't from a background where hitting time targets is ingrained.

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2019, 10:22:21 pm »
converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion

This is part of the fun of audax - what else do you think about? :)

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2019, 10:48:05 pm »

 This year i will definitely aim to have a better idea of timings AND will stick an aide memoire on my bike along the lines of "On leaving the control check have you had your card stamped!!! "

Or you can do as I often do and stop a mile after leaving the control to check the card is there and has been stamped. :facepalm:
My strategy is "stamp first, everything else after that".

marcusjb

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2019, 08:27:57 am »
Massive, avoidable time suck at PBP - do not forget to take your bidons off the bike and into the control with you.

It can be (at least) a 5 minute round trip back to the bike and then to the taps if you forget.

It’s faffing like that that can easily lose you an hour of sleep potential over the ride.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2019, 09:05:00 am »
There's a point upthread about a skew in the control times - that's definitely the case for the 80 hour group, which has a 36 hour cut-off at Brest, giving 44 hours to return.  That makes it difficult to take much sleep on the way to Brest for the vedettes.  However, that worked for me - I tend to be able to do more distance on day 1 of multiday events that subsequent days. 

I'm fortunate enough not to be under time pressure, but if I was likely to be a full value rider, I'd aim to build up a buffer by the time I got to Brest.  And I think the organisers have probably got it about right - aiming to be 8 hours faster out than you are back.  That might be impacted by strong westerly winds (heaven forbid) on the way to Brest, but I'd adjust my schedule for bad weather accordingly (knowing I should have a few hours in hand).

Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 168 (metric) 518 (furlongs)  111 (nautical miles)

bairn again

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2019, 09:21:25 am »

 This year i will definitely aim to have a better idea of timings AND will stick an aide memoire on my bike along the lines of "On leaving the control check have you had your card stamped!!! "

Or you can do as I often do and stop a mile after leaving the control to check the card is there and has been stamped. :facepalm:
My strategy is "stamp first, everything else after that".

Now that is also a very good idea.  :thumbsup:

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2019, 09:32:59 am »
I make schedule spreadsheets for most rides of 600km and over. I tend to be optimistic and try to make it a realistic best case scenario only, but I’m aware that there is likely to slippage due to conditions, stuff happening and my suboptimal performance, so I round up my overall target time to the next round figure. I then work out the average overall speed required to finish in that time and round it up slightly. This is the figure I set the track speed to when I load the route for the whole ride onto my Garmin. I don’t use pause or auto pause so the virtual partner function will tell me how I’m doing plus or minus throughout the ride. If I finish before my virtual partner I avoid hearing the annoying little tune it plays when it beats me.


Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2019, 09:35:47 am »
Or you can do as I often do and stop a mile after leaving the control to check the card is there and has been stamped.

I left a short piece of the LEL brevet neck strap dangling out of my saddle bag so that - every five minutes - I could check it was there while riding without stopping.

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My strategy is "stamp first, everything else after that".

The layout of most LEL controls made it quite hard *not* to do this. Are PBP ones different?

Salvatore

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2019, 09:54:46 am »
It can be (at least) a 5 minute round trip back to the bike and then to the taps if you forget.

If arrangements are the same this year at Fougères, time can be saved by riding all the way to the card-stamping building and the back to the restaurant/sleeping facilities, rather than parking your bike near the entrance and walking everywhere.
Quote
et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur

mattc

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2019, 10:04:51 am »
Early UK PBP riders tended to be long-distance time triallists. So they had time and distance equations running in their heads throughout most of their serious rides. There wasn't a lot else to think about before the distractions of technology, and converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion.

I can see the use of spreadsheets for those who aren't from a background where hitting time targets is ingrained.
...or are young enough to know how to use spreadsheets.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

FifeingEejit

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2019, 11:22:58 am »
Early UK PBP riders tended to be long-distance time triallists. So they had time and distance equations running in their heads throughout most of their serious rides. There wasn't a lot else to think about before the distractions of technology, and converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion.

I can see the use of spreadsheets for those who aren't from a background where hitting time targets is ingrained.
...or are young enough to know how to use spreadsheets.
A spreadsheet is just a fancy calculator.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk


Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2019, 11:39:23 am »
Slightly off topic, but does anyone know how control timings work for PBP?
Even simple calculations for closing times for the first few controls at the 15km/h minimum speed quickly fall apart.
Am I overlooking something here, or does ACP just fudge the control times for some reason?
I too find the lack of information on minimum speeds and control closing times a bit surprising. I don't plan to be riding/stopping/sleeping at anywhere near the minimum average speed but I'd still like to know before I pick up my brevet card.
After mining info from the RUSA site I have used these formulae in my spreadsheet:
=N$1+(K4*43.5/(24*611))
[where N$1 is start time, K4 = cumulative distance (on the way out), 43.5 hours is how long the 90 hour starts have got to get to Brest (@611km), and 24 = no of hours in the day]
and for closing times on the way back:
=P$10+((K14-611)*46.5/(24*607))
[where P$10 is the closing time at Brest (start + 43.5 hours), (K14-611) = cumulative distance (from Brest), 46.5 hours is how long the 90 hour starts have got to get back from Brest, 607km is the distance back, and 24 = no of hours in the day]

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2019, 12:08:40 pm »
Early UK PBP riders tended to be long-distance time triallists. So they had time and distance equations running in their heads throughout most of their serious rides. There wasn't a lot else to think about before the distractions of technology, and converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion.

I can see the use of spreadsheets for those who aren't from a background where hitting time targets is ingrained.
...or are young enough to know how to use spreadsheets.

I'm old enough to have been trained to use 'manual' spreadsheets. As a contractor I've always needed to be aware of contribution to profit, so I have a shrewd idea of the time of day when income exceeds expenses. The aim is to hit that point as quickly and smoothly as possible, and go into cruise mode, as the £ signs flash before my eyes.

I'll be using my year-end spreadsheet to assess my potential pension contribution later on.

The Brevet Card is essentially a spreadsheet, with target windows, and space for current performance. That suffices for the core task, which is riding the course.

I've attached subsidiary tasks following my first completion in 1999. 2003 was getting Heather round, and making a film. 2007 was making a more involved film, with Heather in support, with a Press pass. 2011 was much the same, but with my friend Dave Robinson filming as well, and with more online communication. In 2015 I started, but planned to ride to Mortagne only, as I'd had an eye operation, and wasn't supposed to exert myself. My improved vision meant I could pilot a motorbike, while Dave filmed.

Filming demands the opposite of a steady pace, as the aim is to record a variety of participants. The most rational approach to pacing means that you tend to see the same small group of riders.

A varied pace within 'the Bulge', is the most satisfying way to get to Brest, as it's very sociable, but only if the anxiety of sleeping and eating is removed by having support, with a vehicle to sleep in, and someone to queue for food.

The return from Brest is the interesting part of the ride, as it's unknown territory for many, and people start to exhibit strange behaviours. The usual advice is to race to Brest, and tour back. Filming means that the reverse of that is the best course of action. Start as early as possible, fall back through the field, pay attention to the 84 hour riders passing between Villaines and Tinteniac, sleep in the car at Loudeac, while Heather films the mayhem, and arrive at Brest between 40 hours and the cutoff, having stopped for a coffee and pastry at Huelgoat, and sandwiches and a dessert from the shop at Sizun.

In 2011 I trained specifically to be able to be able to make up time at night. I concentrated on riding as effectively as possible during the dark hours of the Mersey Roads 24, which involved not dressing too much. I've got hours of video of the 24, PBP and LEL, and a common fault is to put on all the clothing you have at night, to cope with descents, but to leave those clothes on as the day warms up. That becomes more of a problem as the ride progresses and concentration slips beyond Brest.

I'd typically be managing three cameras, with associated batteries and media on the bike, so I didn't want the distraction of other bits of tech. If I fell behind schedule, Heather would take two cameras, and tell me to get a move on. As part of the training was 25 mile time trials, I could up the pace as needed.

The result is that my strategy is the opposite of the usual behaviour, but it has given me an insight into what the usual behaviour consists of. The main stumbling blocks are poor clothing and control discipline on the return, and that's especially true of first-time riders who are in a foreign land, both literally and figuratively. Those problems are compounded by the learning process surrounding practical tasks. The significance of advice isn't obvious unless it's backed up by experience, especially when that novel experience is riding over 350 extra miles over previous efforts.

It's worth managing the ride to be alert on the way back, as it's interesting to see the various ways that the wheels fall off the various planning strategies.

mattc

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2019, 12:11:21 pm »
@Ajax_bay:

A bit of googling will get you the times from previous events.

This is far more reliable than trying to calculate it - put your formulae fancy calculators down!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2019, 12:23:12 pm »
With the new starting point and modified route, times from previous years could easily be out by an hour if not more.

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2019, 12:27:15 pm »
With the new starting point and modified route, times from previous years could easily be out by an hour if not more.

You still get 90 hours to finish a shorter ride, so planning on previous cards gives you more of a cushion. 1999 was the opposite, with extra miles due to roadworks, now that was a problem.

frankly frankie

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2019, 12:34:35 pm »
A spreadsheet is just a fancy calculator.

I can remember when we weren't allowed to take our sliderules into exams.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

zigzag

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2019, 12:53:33 pm »


I wrote myself a schedule and sellotaped it to the inside of the lid of my bar bag in 2011, when I rode my mountain bike.
<...>

2011 good times!.. chilling on the night before the start

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2019, 12:59:32 pm »
After much experimentation with spreadsheets (and taking into account an inability to read numbers, let alone comprehend them, after more than a day awheel) i came up with a graphical interface.
Basically two saw-tooth profiles of time-in-hand against distance.  Upper one is how things should go ..., the lower one is for when it all goes pear-shaped.  So long as actual time-in-hand remains between the two lines all is well.  Drop below the lower line and it's time to think about packing, or 'emergency action' such as riding through the night with no sleep.
This usually only works for the first couple of days, then either spreadsheet copy on the phone gets corrupted, or I can no longer be arsed to enter up arrival & departure times at each control, but it provides a "fun" distraction while it lasts.