Author Topic: PBP pace planning  (Read 4517 times)

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2019, 01:01:19 pm »
My back of the envelope calculation for 70h.

30h out, sleep 4h, 36h back.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2019, 02:29:00 pm »
My back of the envelope calculation for 70h.

30h out, sleep 4h, 36h back.

That's very close to what I've done the last two times - except faster out, 5h sleep at Brest and then another 5h sleep at Villaines.
Eddington Numbers 123 (imperial), 168 (metric) 516 (furlongs)  110 (nautical miles)

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2019, 05:43:49 pm »
@Ajax_bay:

A bit of googling will get you the times from previous events.

This is far more reliable than trying to calculate it - put your formulae fancy calculators down!
Talk (typing) is cheap and effortless, Matt. If these data were easily googled, the question wouldn't have been asked (or I could have answered with a definitive site). As at least one other has said 'I like spreadsheets too'.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2019, 05:55:59 pm »
Here you are, knock yourself out. http://dcrand.org/blog/2015/07/09/cue-sheets-gps-files-and-planning-spreadsheet-for-pbp-2015/ gives opening and closing times for all controls for PBP15 90hr. It took about 3 minutes to find.


I prefer Jo's http://gicentre.org/pbp2015/ though
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2019, 08:14:44 pm »
Hark at all you lot talk about pace planning!
Have a bit of empathy will you for those folk that are just too slow to even contemplate devising a pace plan in the first place, never mind trying to put one into action.

Turn up.
Ride.
See what 'appens.

Simples :-)
Garry Broad

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2019, 08:20:54 pm »
Hark at all you lot talk about pace planning!
Have a bit of empathy will you for those folk that are just too slow to even contemplate devising a pace plan in the first place, never mind trying to put one into action.

This is PBP. And your leisure time. Chill out and enjoy the event

Turn up.
Ride.
See what 'appens.

Simples :-)

Been done that. Having to lie down in a ditch because you’ve gone cross eyed with tiredness is so 2007.

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2019, 10:14:58 pm »
My back of the envelope calculation for 70h.

30h out, sleep 4h, 36h back.

That was my plan in 1991 except I was going for a 69 so had an hour less sleep!

I found Brest a bit too far for a first sleep from a 90 hour evening start that time so slept for 5 hours at Carhaix in 1995 and found I was then refreshed enough to ride for another 25 hours to Villaines where I only needed a one hour sleep to see me through to the finish. I was so pleased with how this worked that I tried a similar strategy in 1999, 2003, 2007 and 2011 but I was getting slower each time and only just finished in under 70 hours in 2011 after taking about 39 hours to reach Brest.

By 2015 I was doing more cycling and had a carbon bike so had the confidence to go for an 84 hour start. The strategy was still similar except sleeping before the start instead of at Carhaix. This start suited me better and I shaved over 3 hours off my previous quickest time. I’m registered for the same Group Z start this year.


FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2019, 11:43:13 pm »
Slightly off topic, but does anyone know how control timings work for PBP?
Even simple calculations for closing times for the first few controls at the 15km/h minimum speed quickly fall apart.
Am I overlooking something here, or does ACP just fudge the control times for some reason?
I too find the lack of information on minimum speeds and control closing times a bit surprising. I don't plan to be riding/stopping/sleeping at anywhere near the minimum average speed but I'd still like to know before I pick up my brevet card.
After mining info from the RUSA site I have used these formulae in my spreadsheet:
=N$1+(K4*43.5/(24*611))
[where N$1 is start time, K4 = cumulative distance (on the way out), 43.5 hours is how long the 90 hour starts have got to get to Brest (@611km), and 24 = no of hours in the day]
and for closing times on the way back:
=P$10+((K14-611)*46.5/(24*607))
[where P$10 is the closing time at Brest (start + 43.5 hours), (K14-611) = cumulative distance (from Brest), 46.5 hours is how long the 90 hour starts have got to get back from Brest, 607km is the distance back, and 24 = no of hours in the day]

Through curiosity I've knocked up a sheet based on the distances on the offical info sheet and your formulae with my pre-reg start time.
https://1drv.ms/x/s!AlB7bV6RdTovht1fHb_dPUexamhu6Q

The most important bit of information for me on that is that based on what I learnt about my sleep needs on BGB (that I can keep going till around Midnight the following night on an evening start)
Is that to have any chance of making Brest before sleeping I'll need to average 20kmh.
More realistically I'll get to Carhaix.... Bugger.

However on BGB I got up around 10am, had an easyish day on trains then got a few mins sleep in the back garden of the scout hut in a bivvy bag but with not enough layers to really sleep, where as for PBP my thoughts are to try and sleep till just before check out time at midday which I'm perfectly capable of... and hope that lets me stay awake that bit longer.

hm...
Don't really have an evening start planned to try that out on though.

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2019, 12:35:40 am »
Looking for an accurate formula for control opening/closing times is going to be an impossible task so give up on that now. The formula does not exist.

Like most Brevet cards the control opening/closing times will be based on distances that aren't officially published (but somewhere between the minimum distance between controls and the expected route between controls) and a minimum average speed that changes defying all logic, and then modified per control with a liberal application of Gallic shrugging whilst mumbling "Bof".

They haven't even decided on the final route yet.

I've done my fair share of over-planning in the past but doing an SR series cured me of that. Reality > Plans.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

frankly frankie

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2019, 08:33:09 am »
By 2015 I was doing more cycling and had a carbon bike so had the confidence to go for an 84 hour start. The strategy was still similar except sleeping before the start instead of at Carhaix. This start suited me better and I shaved over 3 hours off my previous quickest time. I’m registered for the same Group Z start this year.

I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot.  I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

SPB

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2019, 08:51:55 am »

I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot.  I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.

Not having done it before, that's one of my primary concerns.  I've ridden round the clock before having started fresh im the morning but that strikes me as a very different proposition to having been up all day and thenriding for 30+ hours before sleeping. 

Going back in 2023 I'll have been through it before, so probably won't feel the need beforehand to attempt to rough out a schedule.  I may not keep to the one I've roughed out for this year but, if nothing else, working out where I might have enough buffer built up to grab some sleep has helped me get a better understanding of quite what I've taken on.

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2019, 08:55:50 am »
I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot.  I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.

I think the evening start suits some people more than others. It works for me, as I find I'm able to cycle through the night relatively easily when I've not ridden through the previous day. It also means that by the second night I'm sufficiently tired to sleep early and get up early, generally avoiding the impact of the bulge as far as possible.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2019, 12:00:38 pm »
Looking for an accurate formula for control opening/closing times is going to be an impossible task so give up on that now. The formula does not exist.

Like most Brevet cards the control opening/closing times will be based on distances that aren't officially published (but somewhere between the minimum distance between controls and the expected route between controls) and a minimum average speed that changes defying all logic, and then modified per control with a liberal application of Gallic shrugging whilst mumbling "Bof".

They haven't even decided on the final route yet.

I've done my fair share of over-planning in the past but doing an SR series cured me of that. Reality > Plans.

well yeah, I've not done that sheet in order to know when the controls actually open and close, that'll be on the card, sort of... But I know this already.
The arrival times based on rough distances at different speeds is of much more use for me to figure out if there is a possibility of managing the first "half" before sleeping, it looks like it's border line, if I get on a few trains and manage to exceed a 20kmh average then my sleep pattern with try to sleep as far into the day at the start possible should cope with it, if not then I need to think about stopping for a snooze on the way out.

It's the rough idea I need not a fixed plan!

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2019, 01:47:01 pm »
You still get 90 hours to finish a shorter ride, so planning on previous cards gives you more of a cushion.

I've just had a compare of the distances and *all* of the distances are lower in 2019, albeit only by single digits. That would suggest to me slightly earlier closing times on the way out, maybe later on the way back.

The biggest differences might be towards the end when controls will be about 20 km closer to the finish, so hopefully open much later.

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2019, 07:28:53 pm »
By 2015 I was doing more cycling and had a carbon bike so had the confidence to go for an 84 hour start. The strategy was still similar except sleeping before the start instead of at Carhaix. This start suited me better and I shaved over 3 hours off my previous quickest time. I’m registered for the same Group Z start this year.

I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot.  I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
I was fine with the evening starts until 2011 when I’d hardly slept for the three nights before starting. It was so bad I had to stop for a sleep in a haystack after about 180km (45km before the first control!) and I didn’t make it to Carhaix until Bulge O’clock when folks were queuing outside in the rain for beds. It was carnage in the dining room too, but I found a pile of the cardboard they were putting on the floor in a big closet and slept on that for a few hours. I could function normally again after that and still did a reasonable overall time. Ideally I like starting between 0900 and 1000. 0530 is the best I can get for the PBP.


Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2019, 08:07:23 pm »
An evening start is superb for me. I function quite well in the evening and have no issues with a Siesta. So with an evening start I can ride till about 4am in the 2nd night. Which for PBP usually means 10-20km short of Carhaix.

Ben T

  • What you saying, then?
Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2019, 04:53:40 pm »
After much experimentation with spreadsheets (and taking into account an inability to read numbers, let alone comprehend them, after more than a day awheel) i came up with a graphical interface.
Basically two saw-tooth profiles of time-in-hand against distance.  Upper one is how things should go ..., the lower one is for when it all goes pear-shaped.  So long as actual time-in-hand remains between the two lines all is well.  Drop below the lower line and it's time to think about packing, or 'emergency action' such as riding through the night with no sleep.
This usually only works for the first couple of days, then either spreadsheet copy on the phone gets corrupted, or I can no longer be arsed to enter up arrival & departure times at each control, but it provides a "fun" distraction while it lasts.

You could have an idea there. If you were to be able to have that, but on a mobile app - is that something that people would find useful?
So if you were to be able to look at your phone, and it could instantly tell you: "You have x hours y minutes in hand." (Based on having done p km towards a target of Q km)". The only two complications would be intermediate controls, if you wanted to be in time for all those you would have to tell it where they were and the cutoff time, and if you went off course, you would have to tell it by how far manually, otherwise it would be giving you an overly optimistic reading.
I do find that slightly bizarre, I must admit.

Zed43

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Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2019, 05:58:47 pm »
If you have a Garmin device that supports IQ apps then you can install Randonneur Control Close Calculator  which shows time in hand.

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2019, 06:45:20 pm »
If you have a Garmin device that supports IQ apps then you can install Randonneur Control Close Calculator  which shows time in hand.
Except that app assumes that ACP have applied their rules to the PBP distances - which they didn't seem to in 2015.
Broadly the closing times in 2015 appear to reflect closing times to Tinteniac (~400km) requiring 15kph and then dropping off to about 14kph (average) to Brest. The closing time there (90 hour start) offered riders 43.4 hours (my earlier formula used 43.5).
The distance there was 613 in 2015 and 615 back. This time the figures are 611 and 607.

Ben T

  • What you saying, then?
Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2019, 09:19:23 am »
and that you've got a particular bluetooth garmin...
I do find that slightly bizarre, I must admit.

SPB

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2019, 02:19:26 pm »
...which won't run on AAs like an etrex so you'll need to keep recharging it.  And also your phone.

Nice idea, but can't see the advantage over a scrap of paper with latest leaving times for each control.  All i'll have to do is look at that, look at the time, and the difference will tell me how much buffer I've built up.  No electrons need be harmed in the making of this film.

But I must have missed something.  ???

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2019, 02:35:49 pm »
...which won't run on AAs like an etrex so you'll need to keep recharging it.  And also your phone.

Nice idea, but can't see the advantage over a scrap of paper with latest leaving times for each control.  All i'll have to do is look at that, look at the time, and the difference will tell me how much buffer I've built up.  No electrons need be harmed in the making of this film.

But I must have missed something.  ???
Agree entirely. List of leaving times is simple graphical informations needs accurate inputting of current position and time mid ride. App system increases power drain and reliance on tech.

Additionally set a series of alarms on phone or watch 20 mins before you need to leave each control. Alarms can be set and labelled at your convenience. If the alarm goes off and you have left the control - happy times. If you haven't reached the control - problem.
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2019, 02:44:36 pm »
I'd like an 80h version please.

As for charging the Garmin on the road, Garmin have finally solved this properly with the Edge 1030 and their external battery.

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2019, 02:51:42 pm »

Except that app assumes that ACP have applied their rules to the PBP distances - which they didn't seem to in 2015.

They are still their rules, just not BRM.  Paris-Brest-Paris has never been either BRM or LRM. 

SPB

Re: PBP pace planning
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2019, 02:56:45 pm »
I'd like an 80h version please.

As for charging the Garmin on the road, Garmin have finally solved this properly with the Edge 1030 and their external battery.

If it helps, for 80h I worked mine out based on the required minimum average speeds being 17 km/h outbound, 13.7 km/h back.  That correlated with an ACP 2015 80h control closing schedule I found on a North American randonneuring site.  May not be exact but, since I was then estimating my average riding speed on order to calculate latest leaving times, I considered it close enough.