Author Topic: Medical Certificates  (Read 893 times)

Medical Certificates
« on: December 07, 2018, 05:33:38 pm »
E Minor is about to leave for France to wrok as a sous-chef.
His employer wants a medical certificate. However, the GP refused to issue one, because he can't tell that the lad is healthy/not a health hazard, without a full check up, including blood tests.

The wording supplied by the employer is:-

I, the undersigned Doctor............... hereby certify that the person named abovepresents nomedical contra-indications that would prevent him/her from fulfilling the responsibilities of the job outlined above. As far as I am reasonably able to determine, he/she also has no infectious diseases/conditions that might compromise the health or safety of his/her colleagues or clients.

In addition, when he made the appointment, the receptionist told him that he would be charged at £200 per hour. We know that there is a charge for certificates, but WTF?

E Minor is trying to find a solution through the company that will be employing him. Meanwhile, I will talk to a friend who is a GP (elsewhere).

...reasonably able to determine... it's not like being under oath in a criminal court...

Comments, please.



ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2018, 06:20:46 pm »
he could get an offshore medical cheaper than that, probably more thorough as well.

Perhaps look up an occupational health doctor?
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 08:32:21 pm »
A doctor can get struck off for certifying anything they don't KNOW to be true so for them it IS like being under oath in Court.
Proving somebody is NOT carrying harmful bugs is awkward.

Such certificates are no NHS work so they can charge what they like. I think the BMA does have a fee guide.

Finding a friend who's a GP makes sense.

Good luck with Efrogwr junior's job!

Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2018, 08:52:08 pm »
A doctor can get struck off for certifying anything they don't KNOW to be true so for them it IS like being under oath in Court.
Proving somebody is NOT carrying harmful bugs is awkward.

Such certificates are no NHS work so they can charge what they like. I think the BMA does have a fee guide.

Finding a friend who's a GP makes sense.

Good luck with Efrogwr junior's job!

Thank you. I know  and understand about the charges. I've found some BMA guidelines on charging for non- medical work. As you know, they vary widely, but there's no mention of an hourly rate. My GP friend seemed to be astonished by the quoted rate!
I take your point about professional ethics and standards, but "...reasonably able to determine..."  seems to me to allow for errors. Even if blood/urine/stool tests show that a person is free of harmful bugs that only applies to the samples tested...

The personnel department will look into the possibility of having him certified as fit and safe by a French doctor.

Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2018, 09:06:45 pm »
It would be far easier and cheaper to get it done in France, if it were possible with his work situation (i presume he needs it as part of his rectuitment).
Normally in France he wouldn't have to provide a certificate himself as it should be taken care of by the employer and the work medical service which the employer is subscribed to (Visite Médicale préalable à l"Embauche or something similar IIRC). My current boss was being billed each year for the service even though there weren't enough doctors to assure the visites so I had my visit 4 years late this summer when I went back to work after my knee replacement (they couldn't find a way of not doing it I think).
I have never been asked  to provide a medical certificate at the start of a contract, and I have never heard of anyone else being asked for one. My eldest french daughter started her first job at the beginning of october without anything like that; she had her visit to the Service Médicale du Travail (I think that is what it is called, something like that) in november. The visite médicale is where the doctor can put restrictions or conditions on your professional activity, insist on EPIs (hearing protectors etc; with my knee I am banned from going up ladders or steps during work and kneeling) but otherwise will only be advisory. Hearing and eyesight checks are part of it as are blood pressure, pulse and urine checks. France is quite keen on medical visits and certificates but the resources are no longer available to maintain the service in the way it used to be.

I would try to check with the employer whether the lad is supposed to do his own certificate or whether they are referring to the visite médicale du travail which is the employer's responsibility (and which the employer should be doing as a legal requirement - unless it is something Macron has planned to do away with).

Re costs of medical certificates, my GP does mine for the cycle club licence for the cost of a normal consult and that is reimbursed in the same way as a consult.

Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2018, 09:20:21 pm »
It would be far easier and cheaper to get it done in France, if it were possible with his work situation (i presume he needs it as part of his rectuitment).
Normally in France he wouldn't have to provide a certificate himself as it should be taken care of by the employer and the work medical service which the employer is subscribed to (Visite Médicale préalable à l"Embauche or something similar IIRC). My current boss was being billed each year for the service even though there weren't enough doctors to assure the visites so I had my visit 4 years late this summer when I went back to work after my knee replacement (they couldn't find a way of not doing it I think).
I have never been asked  to provide a medical certificate at the start of a contract, and I have never heard of anyone else being asked for one. My eldest french daughter started her first job at the beginning of october without anything like that; she had her visit to the Service Médicale du Travail (I think that is what it is called, something like that) in november. The visite médicale is where the doctor can put restrictions or conditions on your professional activity, insist on EPIs (hearing protectors etc; with my knee I am banned from going up ladders or steps during work and kneeling) but otherwise will only be advisory. Hearing and eyesight checks are part of it as are blood pressure, pulse and urine checks. France is quite keen on medical visits and certificates but the resources are no longer available to maintain the service in the way it used to be.

I would try to check with the employer whether the lad is supposed to do his own certificate or whether they are referring to the visite médicale du travail which is the employer's responsibility (and which the employer should be doing as a legal requirement - unless it is something Macron has planned to do away with).

Re costs of medical certificates, my GP does mine for the cycle club licence for the cost of a normal consult and that is reimbursed in the same way as a consult.


Thanks.

You presume correctly.  He will be working for a British company, under British regulations for payment, tax and NI. However, some of the conditions that apply to his work appear to be closer to the local ones ( working hours and time off).

The company has sent him a blank certificate to be completed by a doctor, so it does seem that the certificate is a precondition.

We will see what happens...


Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2018, 10:16:24 am »
perhaps try a private GP.  There are increasing numbers of these in city centres offering this kind of service.  My son used one for his health certificate some years ago when travelling

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2018, 11:01:11 am »
It would be far easier and cheaper to get it done in France, if it were possible with his work situation (i presume he needs it as part of his rectuitment).
Normally in France he wouldn't have to provide a certificate himself as it should be taken care of by the employer and the work medical service which the employer is subscribed to (Visite Médicale préalable à l"Embauche or something similar IIRC). My current boss was being billed each year for the service even though there weren't enough doctors to assure the visites so I had my visit 4 years late this summer when I went back to work after my knee replacement (they couldn't find a way of not doing it I think).
I have never been asked  to provide a medical certificate at the start of a contract, and I have never heard of anyone else being asked for one. My eldest french daughter started her first job at the beginning of october without anything like that; she had her visit to the Service Médicale du Travail (I think that is what it is called, something like that) in november. The visite médicale is where the doctor can put restrictions or conditions on your professional activity, insist on EPIs (hearing protectors etc; with my knee I am banned from going up ladders or steps during work and kneeling) but otherwise will only be advisory. Hearing and eyesight checks are part of it as are blood pressure, pulse and urine checks. France is quite keen on medical visits and certificates but the resources are no longer available to maintain the service in the way it used to be.

I would try to check with the employer whether the lad is supposed to do his own certificate or whether they are referring to the visite médicale du travail which is the employer's responsibility (and which the employer should be doing as a legal requirement - unless it is something Macron has planned to do away with).

Re costs of medical certificates, my GP does mine for the cycle club licence for the cost of a normal consult and that is reimbursed in the same way as a consult.

+1 to all that.  The only time I have been asked for a medical certificate before getting a job was when I joined Univac in the 70's. They provided a checklist for the doc to tick off: rabies, hard pad, distemper, warble fly...
Où sont les merguez d'antan ?

Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2018, 06:38:31 pm »
Looking at the wording of this cerificate I feel sure that this is part of his employer's internal procedure, rather than any local employment requirement. In fact I feel sure that it wouldn't hold up in a french work tribunal as complying with occupational health procedures because
1; the examination isn't done by an approved occupational health specialist
2; the examination is not organised by the employer during the working hours of the employee
3; the procedure doesn't result in a certificate of aptitude to fill the post (called a certificate d'aptitude au travail, which has "apt" or "inapt" written on it, along with any conditions to be applied to the apt judgement). GP's are not considered reliable for this sort of judgement - as mine says he doesn't know what the job entails, that's for the Médecin du Travail to determine.
So highly likely that it is an internal procedure to cover the company's back in the event of an employee having a medical problem.

Talking of other medical certificates I had to have one for my first carte de séjour back in 1990/1, which had to be done by an approved doctor (there were only two in the area around Confolens, the GP wasn't allowed to do it). It included chest X-rays and blood tests to check for tb and syphilis. AIDS had not been around for long enough for that to be tested otherwise it would have been in there as well. An unnerving experience when your french was still getting up to scratch.
The other odd medical certificate was a requirement for getting married and was designed to confirm that the marriage would result in kids. I think it must have been a throwback to the post-1870 Franco-Prussian war period when the whole country was devoted to getting their own back on the Prussians. (This is the period that had Civic Responsibility school lessons in which boys did drill with wooden rifles and girls were taught about the merits of having lots of kids to supply future cannon fodder). The marriage medical certificate was done by our GP.

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2018, 08:53:33 am »
Re the blood test for syphilis, my first visit to the Médecin du Travail was back in 1972, after I had been in my new job for a couple of months.  It was up near the Place de Clichy, which meant running a gauntlet of alors, cheri, tu viens? on the way.  The doc didn't draw blood, though - and neither did they.
Où sont les merguez d'antan ?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2018, 05:50:03 pm »
I think all donors' blood is tested for syphilis...

Re: Medical Certificates
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2019, 03:44:55 pm »
I am sorry for the excessively long delay in responding.

Thank you all for your comments; they helped us to find a solution for the lad.

The certificate was an internal requirement of Eminor's employer ( a British company), but there was a possibility of his being examined by a french doctor. He found a local GP who prepared a health certificate privately before he left the UK.