Author Topic: Cambrian Series Permanents  (Read 58480 times)

whosatthewheel

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #625 on: February 01, 2019, 03:37:14 pm »
I think somewhere Colin has made it clear that if you complete it within BR time you will also get AUK distance points for it.

The thing is, there is already a 600 with 10K+ of climbing to be done in 40 hours and it's called the Pendle 600. I could do that, but I worked out the risk of failure is great enough for me not to consider it as part of an award.

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #626 on: February 02, 2019, 03:09:27 am »
I haven't read the whole thread relating to this but...

Remember it can be 14.3kph for BR points so 42hrs nominal distance.

If you want the ACP SR 600 for your ACP R10k do it in 60hrs. If you want the 10+ AAAs do it in 60hrs. If you want both of those and 6 points do it at BR pace. Otherwise do an easier 600 for the points. They're supposed to be very demanding. That's my view.

whosatthewheel

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #627 on: February 02, 2019, 06:39:41 am »
I haven't read the whole thread relating to this but...

Remember it can be 14.3kph for BR points so 42hrs nominal distance.

If you want the ACP SR 600 for your ACP R10k do it in 60hrs. If you want the 10+ AAAs do it in 60hrs. If you want both of those and 6 points do it at BR pace. Otherwise do an easier 600 for the points. They're supposed to be very demanding. That's my view.

The thing is, if you look around, hilly brevets typically are quite generous with time provision, Raid Pyrenean gives you 100 hours to do 712 km... OK, it's not ACP and all of that, but it's still a Brevet de Randonneur.
Audax is inflexible and as a result there is relatively little appetite for long mountainous brevets. I don't think it would be unreasonable to allow a longer time window for SOME brevets and still offer all the benefits

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #628 on: February 02, 2019, 11:42:14 am »
The Cambrian Super Randonnee 600 is high on my wish list. I might have entered it last year if I hadn’t already entered the Super Randonnee around the Dolomites and made all my travel plans. I rode that last August and it was by far the hardest ride I’ve ever done with 15500m of ascent according to my Garmin and 16800m according to Strava. The organiser asked me to set up WhatsApp on my phone so I could send him my control photos on the way round so he could track my progress. I downloaded the free app and set a group up with him and my family so they could all  see where I was up to. This worked very well and the organiser also messaged me back with welcome words of encouragement. Like Wales the Dolomites has areas with no internet access but photos get sent automatically when you next get a connection.
I didn’t stop for food or accommodation on the ride and filled my bidons from fountains along the route so didn’t actually spend any money. I had hoped to get round in about 42 hours as the ride was “only” advertised as 13000m but the relentless and extra climbing slowed me down and I unexpectedly had to go through the whole of the second night. This meant I had to sleep out twice on the second night with no bivvi kit and eventually finished early the next morning, still over 10 hours inside the Randonneur limit.
Regarding the points, I claimed it as an Overseas 600 and sent in my gps track for AAA points. Before 2018 marcusjb was the only Audax UK rider to complete a Super Randonnee 600 and that was another very tough one around the Pyrenees back in 2013. He had received 6 distance points and 15 AAA points so I expected similar. Why not when it is a permanent ride considered, at least by ACP, to be at Randonneur level? I was initially given 6 distance points and 16 AAA points but the AAA points were on the right day and the distance points were on the last day of the 2018 season. When I asked for this to be corrected and my ACP brevet number added, I was told that the Audax UK board had decided that Super Randonnees would not be awarded distance points and my points were taken away! Luckily I didn’t particularly need them as I was still over 100 points and hyper anyway, but it was still annoying as it took the edge off my achievement a bit, especially as it was the last ride I needed for my ACP Randonneur 10000.
My personal view is that Audax UK should respect what ACP consider to be Randonneur level rides and award the points accordingly which would mean that anyone completing the Cambrian Super Randonnee in under 60 hours would get the distance and AAA points that they deserve. This would also encourage Audax UK riders to participate in Super Randonnees and work towards the ACP Randonneur 10000.
The super randonee rules expressly prohibit it being done in conjunction with another event/award.

Below is the full current English version of the rules for Super Randonnées.

The only lines I can see that relate to what you are saying are at the top of the "Notes" section.

"A Super Randonnée cannot be counted as participation in, or as credit for another event held in conjuntion with the Super Randonnée."
"A Super Randonnée cannot be held both at the same time and on the same course as a BRM of 600 km."

In relation to the Cambrian Super Randonnée this would mean that you could not ride the "normal" Audax UK permanent version at the same time. Also if the route was ever made into a BRM 600km you couldn't do your Super Randonnée version whilst that was on.

Awards don't seem to be mentioned.

Super Randonnées are simply hilly permanent events and if they are completed in 60 hours or less they are at Randonneur level. As they are clearly over 200km surely they should attract distance points at the usual rate of 1 point per 100km.

As far as I can see, it's just the minimum average speed that might seem a bit generous at 10km/h, especially for Super Randonnées that are not much over the 10,000m climbing limit, but Super Randonnées are still not an easy option for any rider wanting to ride 600km. I think a Super Randonnée in 60 hours is still harder than riding a flat BRM 600km in 40 hours.


RULES OF THE SUPER RANDONNÉES


Introduction

The Super Randonnée is a permanent route, ridden at the initiative of the participant. Riders choose their start date and time, how they get organized, what they put in their bags, how they manage their time, if they sleep at the hotel or in a sleeping bag or not at all. Regarding their own organization, they have no other obligation than to make the overall time limit according to the option chosen (Randonneur or Tourist) and to do the ride without the support of a vehicle. Each of them is responsible for validating his/her passage at the controls. In short, they can and have to handle things all by themselves. The spirit of the Super Randonnée is based on freedom and maturity of the riders.

What are Super Randonnées ?

Super Randonnées are permanents which are organized, verified and validated by Audax Club Parisien. They are located in mountainous areas.

The length is about 600 km (373 miles) and the total amount of climbing is over 10.000 m (32.800 feet).
At registration, each rider selects to ride a Super Randonnée either as a Tourist or as a Randonneur.
- Tourists have to complete the SR at a minimum average of 75 km per day.
- The time limit for Randonneurs is 60 hours.

Being permanents, Super Randonnées can be ridden at any time of the year, provided the roads are open. Please make sure that they are before starting.

About the Riders

Super Randonnées are open to any amateur cyclist regardless of cycling affiliations. Each rider must be covered by liability insurance. Any rider under the age of 18 must have the consent of a parent or legal guardian.
Any form of human-powered vehicle is acceptable.
Riders are allowed to ride either alone or in a group.
After registration, riders will receive a personal SR card and a frame badge. Both need to be kept with them throughout the ride. On the card, the requested information (name, first name, address etc.) must be completed before the start.

Riders’ Duties

Each rider must be self-sufficient. Support vehicules, even occasionally, are totally forbidden, on the course and at the control places.
Each rider is considered to be on a personal ride. The ACP cannot and does not accept responsibility for any accidents that may occur during a Super Randonnée. The rider must ride in accordance with all applicable traffic regulations and obey all traffic signals.
Riders must follow the route of the Super Randonnée. The organizer provides a detailed cue sheet (road book) indicating the location of the control places, and GPS-files.
Those who have registered as Randonneurs must start from the official starting point. As Tourists, they can choose any other starting point on the cue sheet.
Bikes must be equipped with front and rear lights attached firmly to the bike. During hours of darkness or other low-light conditions (rain, fog, etc.), lights must be turned on and a high-visibility vest must be worn, as requested by the French traffic law. Backup lighting system and headlamp are strongly recommended.
It is recommended to wear an approved helmet, light-colored clothes, and to carry a survival blanket and a cell phone.

Registration

By registering for the Super Randonnée, the participants declare on their honor that they are in sufficient physical condition to complete the course chosen, and to have read the safety instructions.
Each rider must contact the organizer and send the registration fee at least 30 days before the intended ride. The riders can cancel their registration by sending back their SR card.
A card is valid until the participant has started. If he or she starts and abandons, the card is no longer valid for another attempt.
In the Randonneur option, riders must declare a starting date and time at registration. It is possible to change the date and time after registration by informing the organizer of the new date and time, but only up to at least a week before the start.
In the Tourist option, riders do not have to specify a start date. However, if they plan to start from another point than the official starting point, they must notify the organizer of their starting point.

Control and Homologation

Both Tourists and Randonneurs must note on their card the start and finish date and time (day, hour, minute), and the time of passage at all intermediate control places (hour, minute).
They must prove their passage at the control places by taking a picture of their bike at the place designated by the organizer. For each Super Randonnée, the organizer provides detailed information about the places where to take the control pictures. These information can also be sent by e-mail. The rider can appear on the picture, but not without his or her bike.
If circumstances permit, riders can have their card stamped at an establishment located at the control place, instead of taking a picture. The stamp must show the name of the control place, otherwise it is no valid.
Missing pictures (if no replaced by stamps), missing control times, or loss of the card (regardless of how far into the ride a rider is) will result in disqualification.
Each participant is required to personally complete his or her SR card. Each participant must personally provide the organizer with all the control pictures requested for his or her homologation.
Secret controls may occur at the start and during the ride.
Those riding as Randonneurs and finishing in more than the alloted time will be homologated as Tourists, provided they have validated all controls and observed the present rules.
After the ride, participants must return their SR card to the organizer, together with the required pictures. The pictures can be sent as electronic files.
The SR card will be returned to the rider after it has been verified and a homologation number has been assigned. Homologation numbers are issued in chronological order, including both Tourists and Randonneurs. The list of the homologated riders will be posted on the ACP Web site in chronological order. Super Randonnées are not competitive events. Riders are not classified by performance.

Notes

A Super Randonnée cannot be counted as participation in, or as credit for another event held in conjuntion with the Super Randonnée.
A Super Randonnée cannot be held both at the same time and on the same course as a BRM of 600 km.
Super Randonnées being permanents, the organizer has the obligation to offer them throughout the year (provided the roads are open to traffic). If the organizer wants to set a date for a Super Randonnée, he may do so, provided that the rules are respected. In particular, he is not allowed to offer motorized assistance, even occasionally, nor to perform control operations instead of the riders. He must offer the two options, Tourist and Randonneur, and he must not impose any time schedule to the riders.
It is expected that those riding a Super Randonnée agree that their name will be published by the ACP. In any case, their identities will not be used for commercial purposes and will not be transmitted to third parties.
It is also expected that those riding a Super Randonnée fully accept these rules. Any fraud, cheating, or deliberate violation of these rules will result in the exclusion of the rider from all ACP events. The rider may appeal or complain in writing (including by e-mail) to the Board of Directors of ACP, which will then render a final decision.

Contact

Sophie MATTER
3960 ancien chemin de Salernes, 83570 Cotignac - FRANCE
sophie.matter@audax-club-parisien.com
from France 06 650 44 200
from abroad (33) 6 650 44 200




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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #629 on: February 02, 2019, 11:58:23 am »
I haven't read the whole thread relating to this but...

Remember it can be 14.3kph for BR points so 42hrs nominal distance.

If you want the ACP SR 600 for your ACP R10k do it in 60hrs. If you want the 10+ AAAs do it in 60hrs. If you want both of those and 6 points do it at BR pace. Otherwise do an easier 600 for the points. They're supposed to be very demanding. That's my view.

The thing is, if you look around, hilly brevets typically are quite generous with time provision, Raid Pyrenean gives you 100 hours to do 712 km... OK, it's not ACP and all of that, but it's still a Brevet de Randonneur.

What makes you think that Raid Pyrenean is an AUK BR? It is a French randonnee but, in France, 'randonnee' can mean a whole lot of things and some of them have no time limits at all.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #630 on: February 02, 2019, 12:37:52 pm »
I think somewhere Colin has made it clear that if you complete it within BR time you will also get AUK distance points for it.

Colin did say that further up this thread, but he realised it's not correct and retracted it further down the thread.

If you rode round a Super Randonnée in under 40 hours, you still wouldn't get any Audax UK points as things currently stand.


whosatthewheel

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #631 on: February 02, 2019, 02:11:19 pm »


What makes you think that Raid Pyrenean is an AUK BR? It is a French randonnee but, in France, 'randonnee' can mean a whole lot of things and some of them have no time limits at all.

Where did I say that it is an AUK BR?

It is promoted by Pau CC, but it is defined as Randonneur or Tourist, depending on the time limit. My point is that it shows a certain degree of flexibility which makes it very popular. If it asked entrants to complete the randonnee at a minimum speed of 15 km/h, nobody would do it... I mean nobody would even try to do it, bar a few nutters.

Just like hardly anybody takes on the AAA rated AUK long permanents.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #632 on: February 02, 2019, 02:31:52 pm »
Brevet de Randonneur is a specific term in AUK and that is what you called Raid Pyrenean. It is a randonnee that can be done at randonneur or tourist level as defined by Pau CC but that doesn't make it a Brevet de Randonneur.

AUK has the problem that it tries to shoehorn everything into their BRM-based points system. The French don't do so and appreciate these rides on their own merits. Why try to stuff everything into the points system when some rides are probably better suited to being outside that system?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

whosatthewheel

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #633 on: February 02, 2019, 03:11:19 pm »
AUK has the problem that it tries to shoehorn everything into their BRM-based points system. The French don't do so and appreciate these rides on their own merits. Why try to stuff everything into the points system when some rides are probably better suited to being outside that system?

Because it has been proved over and over that if something is not part of the point system it is largely ignored, whereas AUK should have a mission to make things popular.

That also applies to brevets which are perceived to be hard and therefore not worth bothering. The proof is in the pudding, the most popular sportives in the world are the mountainous ones (Marmotte, Etape, Maratona etc... ), the most popular brevets are the flatter ones...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #634 on: February 02, 2019, 03:51:06 pm »
How many points do AUK 100km brevets get? How many 100km brevets are ridden compared to other distances?

https://www.aukweb.net/results/statistics/detail/rides/ might be helpful.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

whosatthewheel

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #635 on: February 02, 2019, 03:55:20 pm »
How many points do AUK 100km brevets get? How many 100km brevets are ridden compared to other distances?

I would stick to perm and DIY for this discussion... calendar events are a different breed... lots of club riders use them, lots of folks who have nothing to do with AUK. I do some BP, why not? 4 hours of my life are worth spending even for zero point, but if the investment is 40 or more, then I think differently.

How many perm/DIY 100 with no points? I suspect not very many

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #636 on: February 02, 2019, 06:38:34 pm »
A nice outcome would be that the Super(hilly) Randonneeeeees gain a (strong) cult following; lists will appear of skinny gradient-loving loons completionistas, word will spread, and AUK members will recognise them as part of the broad church that is Audax - just as 100km BPs are.

People will ride them not for points, but to join the latest craze, daddio. Ideally some nice person at AUK will add the listings to aukweb* , with as much prominence as the main results pages.

Perhaps other brevetty rides will follow this trend? Suggestions anyone? But perhaps for another thread!

(I do feel that giving points for hard rides at extra-slow min-speeds will be a can of worms that will take decades to write the legislature for.)


*( or THAT WHICH IS TO FOLLOW)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #637 on: February 02, 2019, 07:47:17 pm »
I think somewhere Colin has made it clear that if you complete it within BR time you will also get AUK distance points for it.

Sadly that was my original intention, but it fell foul of the not being able to ride one event for two awards.  Therefore I set the Cambrian 6C up in three versions - the Super Randonnee - 60 hours, the Tourist, and as a normal Cambrian Series permanent, with the 42 hour time limit.  If you look at the AUK website each is a separate option. 

Going back to SR Steve's point, I would definitely back a motion to allow AAA points for a Super Randonnee.  I do have a vested interest, as assuming I remain fit and well this year, my intention is to ride 1000 du Sud - which has a non BR 100 hour time limit, but 20,000m ascent and so 20 AAA points.  But IMHO Super Randonnees such as the 6C (11.75AAA points, if they were allowed, but currently 0) are definitely more AAAudacious than 6 x 100 events, such as the Cambrian 1A, 1C, 1G, 1H, 1J, and 1K (worth 12.75).

So far there have been 8 entries for the 6C as a Super Randonnee, of which 4 have definitely attempted and all 4 have succeeded, but none within half a day of a BR time.   But that's probably because riders have taken the advantage of the 60 hour time limit to bank some sleep.  I would expect only the very strongest riders would be able to complete the 6C in 42 hours with a decent sleep stop.
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 168 (metric) 518 (furlongs)  111 (nautical miles)

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #638 on: February 02, 2019, 08:51:19 pm »
 ::-) that's a shame. Didn't realise they were AAA free too, that seems illogical as BPs count towards AAAs and the ACP SR is sort of a hilly BP. Still, I need one for my ACP R10k so I've got to do one.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #639 on: February 02, 2019, 11:02:32 pm »
The 4C, on which the 6C is based, was possibly the most awesome ride I've done in the UK.  Bwlch-y-Groes at dawn, after 300km and a sleepless night.  Cresting the summit was as good a feeling as I've ever had.
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 168 (metric) 518 (furlongs)  111 (nautical miles)

whosatthewheel

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #640 on: February 03, 2019, 06:58:29 am »
No AAA points makes even less sense, given the minimum speed of 10 km/h is something that CAN be applied to BP too... and those are awarded AAA points.


Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #641 on: February 03, 2019, 12:19:38 pm »
The conundrum is that AUK regs make provision for rides completed in conjunction with events organised by other bodies/not affiliated to AUK to be recognised by AUK by registering the ride as a DIY Perm, which means that de-facto, AUK is not recognising the 'other' event but an AUK event, completed according to AUK standards and processes

This approach works well as it avoids AUK having to sanction the vast numbers of events and organisations that exist. Unfortunately, it does rather run in to the brick wall of the traditional french regulatory approach that

[an event] cannot be counted as participation in, or as credit for another event held in conjunction with [an event]

It’s hard to bottom out what this means or is intended to achieve, and therefore hard to resolve/negotiate with, but its trotted out as justification for those who like the french way of doing things. In practice this compartmentalised approach is nothing more than the consequence of historical schisms and petty rivalries in French cycling which over time have been imposed on/been adopted by the rest of the world through affiliation with ACP.

This contrasts with the English UK approach which is to recognise participation in specific events and awards AND allow for that participation to contribute towards aggregate awards such as RRTY, AAA and others for which there are no french equivalent.

This unified approach works in the UK because generally speaking there is only one organisation concerned with regulating long distance cycling in the UK, i.e., AUK, whereas in France there are several, i.e., ACP is simply one of many, each anxious to defend their own fiefdoms.

This means that whilst its generally straightforward for AUK to recognise participation in events organised by non-ACP affiliates, recognising participation in events organised by ACP/ACP affiliates outside the BRM/LRM structure is problematic and that will remain the case whilst there is no appetite to negotiate change.

-----

The other tired old saw that is trotted out regularly is of 'attempting to shoehorn' all AUK activities into the BR/BP structure.

That’s because some don’t appreciate just how flexible the BP structure is; its not just about 100km rides.

(Whilst BPs - by definition - don’t attract BR points, they contribute towards other award schemes, most notably, AAA, and there is no reason why there could not be a PRTY, whateve.)

So it is not that rides are ‘shoehorned’ into BRs or BPs. A ride is either a BR – which has a very specific definition - or it is not, and if it is not then (as it stands) it is a BP.

If there is then a demand for other types of BP awards beyond those included in the Brevet series, there is ample scope to set them up, but to date there has been no demand.

I suspect part of the issues is the term ‘BP’ itself which has a rather limiting/condescending nuance to it, inferring it is for lesser rides/riders.

A much better term would be, say, ‘Brevet Tourist’, which is a far more open and empowering description.

whosatthewheel

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #642 on: February 03, 2019, 01:19:25 pm »
I agree with Manotea that BP are seen as a secondary, minor branch of the main business... the net result is that most BP in the calendar are not particularly demanding and awards not particularly sought after.

I like BP and would do more if there was some kind of incentive and yes, there should be an incentive for an organiser to put up a hard 400 within the BP frame, with relaxed time limits... something less masochistic than the current provision of long distance events.


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #643 on: February 03, 2019, 05:02:42 pm »
Such a 400BP formed a big part of TINAT last year. I loved it!

(the reasons that it isn't on for 2019 are a bit ... debated, so I won't attempt to summarise them - but lots&lots of us enjoyed the 2018 one, and took >>27hours :) )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #644 on: May 12, 2019, 07:55:57 am »
I am experimenting with Ride with GPS for the Cambrian Series routes.  There's a test route up: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29961189 if anyone would like to test and let me know if it downloads okay.

Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 168 (metric) 518 (furlongs)  111 (nautical miles)

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #645 on: May 12, 2019, 10:03:35 am »
Just stumbled across this thread as it's risen to the top of the pile.

Like some other loons, I was inspired by The Long Rider's Arriveé article and have dreams of doing the Cambrian 6C Super Randonneé this summer, although I've not done much planning yet.

From the above discussion, presumably if I was to succeed, I couldn't count the ride towards my in-progress AAARtY?

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #646 on: May 12, 2019, 10:51:37 am »
Just read the last few posts about how the Super Randonee can't count for any other award because it's the "French" way... I thought the french was was generally ignoring such rules but anyway...

Also interesting because to me that means the only reason to do it is for the ACP 10000

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #647 on: May 12, 2019, 06:38:44 pm »
and because it's there! Surely??!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #648 on: May 12, 2019, 06:59:41 pm »
and because it's there! Surely??!

Indeed!

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • 3x Brimstone ancien 3x Pendle/Tan Hill DNF
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Re: Cambrian Series Permanents
« Reply #649 on: May 12, 2019, 08:41:30 pm »
Just stumbled across this thread as it's risen to the top of the pile.

Like some other loons, I was inspired by The Long Rider's Arriveé article and have dreams of doing the Cambrian 6C Super Randonneé this summer, although I've not done much planning yet.

From the above discussion, presumably if I was to succeed, I couldn't count the ride towards my in-progress AAARtY?

As the 6C Super Randonnee starts and finishes in Knighton, you could always do the Cambrian 1B as a leg loosener before or after (Knighton - Clun - Newton - Llandrindod Wells - Knighton)  :o :o
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 168 (metric) 518 (furlongs)  111 (nautical miles)