Author Topic: Tubeless for Dummies  (Read 97031 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Tubeless for Dummies
« on: January 13, 2015, 06:01:51 pm »
I may be relatively inept,  but I doubt I'm the only audaxer who knows almost nothing about the practicalities of Toobless. Is it worth putting a basic guide together for the benefit of hosts and/or lunch dates?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2015, 06:04:54 pm »
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2015, 07:06:24 pm »
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.

Temporary fix by putting a tube in if the sealant won't.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Euan Uzami

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 08:22:18 pm »
If you need to (re) seat the bead for any reason you need to blast air in fairly fast. Some say you need an air compressor but you can achieve it by taking the valve core out, then giving a few blasts with a track pump. You will know when the bead seats. When you take it off all the air will escape rapidly, but the bead will be seated by then and should stay so. 

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 08:22:29 pm »
This is quite useful  - Stan's Notubes http://www.notubes.com/help/index.aspx
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 10:50:15 pm »
If you need to (re) seat the bead for any reason you need to blast air in fairly fast. Some say you need an air compressor but you can achieve it by taking the valve core out, then giving a few blasts with a track pump. You will know when the bead seats. When you take it off all the air will escape rapidly, but the bead will be seated by then and should stay so.

Also, the soapy water as recommended by Stan's, etc., is there to help the bead slip into place, which I didn't really realise initially. You can also tell the bead is seated properly by spinning the wheel and there should be no 'low spots'. Going up to the max recommended pressure can help.
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2015, 01:36:52 am »
If you need to (re) seat the bead for any reason you need to blast air in fairly fast. Some say you need an air compressor
I've always assumed, as a non-user, that a CO2 cylinder would be best for a quick blast.

thing1

  • aka Joth
    • TandemThings
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2015, 01:41:00 am »
My tips for hosts preparing for stop-gap repairs/replacements:

  • One thing I found is the first time I came to replace my tubeless tyre after the new wheel build  (and I guess Steve's wheels are new builds too) is that it was way harder to seat the tyre bead than when the wheel was first built. Air kept escaping around the tyre. Even using a compressor or CO2 didn't help. In the end,  an additional layer of stan's yellow tape was needed right around the rim: the original single layer worked fine for the first install, but then deformed enough at the spoke holes that it was letting too much air escape "around" the tyre bead an never getting a good seal. Once the second layer was added, it just popped right on with a basic pump.
  • Having super skinny inner tubes on hand makes an emergency tyre repair much simpler (easier to get it all in there, less chance of pinch). We used 18/23 tubes inside 25mm Hutch Fusion3 tyre just fine. (I'm guessing Steve is on 25mm? Maybe worth someone confirming that for future host's knowledge).
  • Having a good functioning track pump, and a bead jack like http://amzn.com/B001AYML7K are a real help

Some other tips from a colleague, mostly targeted to new installs rather the running repairs, but maybe useful to someone:
  • When you add the yellow tape, make sure you stretch it really tight all the way around rim bed twice to avoid bubbling at spoke holes. You can see videos of this at the NoTubes site.
  • Mounting tire - soap suds work well to lubricate the bead.
  • When you seat tire, make sure both beads of tire are between valve stem rubber grommet and inner rim sidewall. You might need to hold them in there while you send air through there. Get tire fully inflated, make sure it is properly seated, then deflate and add sealant.
  • Get the Stan's sealant injector - it's a must have for adding sealant. To use it, unscrew valve core, hold wheel with valve stem at 8 o'clock position (16:00 GMT for you Brits) and add sealant through the valve stem. If it's not going in easily, DON'T force it! The valve stems have a tendency to fill with sealant and you need to clean it out to get it to easily flow. An old spoke section works well for poking that sealant out. Then screw valve core back in and use pliers to make sure it is in tight.
  • Then inflate again. Now that the tire is seated you can probably use the floor pump.
  • Make sure you close valve stems or sealant will dry out faster than it would normally.


I've also had one colleague mention Schwalbe One (as Steve is using) work great to a point but then reliability went off a steep cliff. If Steve is reporting multiple flats in a day, a complete tyre replacement maybe due. If he / you don't have tubeless on hand, any good quality clincher, 23 or 25 or whatever he prefers, should work fine on the Stans rims (maybe with a tiny bit of swearing to installed) to get back home.

Euan Uzami

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2015, 01:45:50 am »
If you need to (re) seat the bead for any reason you need to blast air in fairly fast. Some say you need an air compressor
I've always assumed, as a non-user, that a CO2 cylinder would be best for a quick blast.
That works as well,  but it uses it up though and you'd have to buy another one.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2015, 08:38:55 am »
Seems like a lot of faff to me.especially if you still need to carry a spare tube on the road.

They are obviously good or Steve wouldnt be using them.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2015, 08:42:38 am »
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.

Temporary fix by putting a tube in if the sealant won't.
Thanks.

Will an ordinary 700x25 (or 23) Presta be a good fit?

Could I do this with just my standard tyre levers, pump, hands and brain,  treating it like a clincher?


[Rest of replies: TL; DR;  for this context !]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2015, 08:43:59 am »
What should this Dummy do if Steve arrived with damaged/split outer, not likely to last (say) another 100 miles?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2015, 08:55:08 am »
Seems like a lot of faff to me.especially if you still need to carry a spare tube on the road.

They are obviously good or Steve wouldnt be using them.

Maybe, but they would have kept me mobile last month - I hit a small pothole, and was dismayed to get a pinch flat - classic snakebite when I got the tube out later. But that was precipitated by low pressure due to a hawthorn thorn puncture - so slow I could barely find it on the tube, and I hadn't noticed whilst riding. With tubeless I wouldn't have got the first puncture (well it would have sealed) and of course the second would have been academic in two ways!

There are undoubtedly pros and cons, but the vast majority of my not infrequent punctures have been due to thorns or very small flints (this being the Chilterns) and the vast majority, if not all, would have sealed sufficiently to get me home with no noticeably issues or (on a very cold February day last year) calling for home rescue as I just couldn't manhandle the Gatorskins roadside.

I shall soon see if I have to eat my words, as I'm going to try and convert my Equlibrium disc to tubeless using the stock Askium One wheels....
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2015, 08:57:07 am »
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.

Temporary fix by putting a tube in if the sealant won't.
Thanks.

Will an ordinary 700x25 (or 23) Presta be a good fit?

Could I do this with just my standard tyre levers, pump, hands and brain,  treating it like a clincher?


See replies above - skinnier than normal tube recommended. With a tube repair normal tools should be ok.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2015, 09:23:03 am »
Steve has a spare tyre with him.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

PaulF

  • "World's Scariest Barman"
  • It's only impossible if you stop to think about it
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2015, 10:01:52 am »
Very good suggestion Matt.

Given TeethGrinder might turn up at my gaff with dodgy rubber I realise I haven't the foggiest idea how to fix one of those tubeless things.

Temporary fix by putting a tube in if the sealant won't.
Thanks.

Will an ordinary 700x25 (or 23) Presta be a good fit?

Could I do this with just my standard tyre levers, pump, hands and brain,  treating it like a clincher?


[Rest of replies: TL; DR;  for this context !]

Yes, at least that's what I  do with tubeless mtb tyres. Don't think that road ones would be markedly different!

What should this Dummy do if Steve arrived with damaged/split outer, not likely to last (say) another 100 miles?

Give him a new tyre! Although I see below that he carries a spare!

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2015, 11:51:35 am »
My findings on repair/replacements:
  • One thing I found is the first time I came to replace my tubeless tyre after the new wheel build  (and I guess Steve's wheels are new builds too) is that it was way harder to seat the tyre bead than when the wheel was first built. Air kept escaping around the tyre. Even using a compressor or CO2 didn't help. In the end,  an additional layer of stan's yellow tape was needed right around the rim: the original single layer worked fine for the first install, but then deformed enough at the spoke holes that it was letting too much air escape "around" the tyre bead an never getting a good seal. Once the second layer was added, it just popped right on with a basic pump.
The Stan's installation guide calls for two layers of tape on their road rims by default...
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2015, 12:26:37 pm »
...
I've also had one colleague mention Schwalbe One (as Steve is using) work great to a point but then reliability went off a steep cliff. If Steve is reporting multiple flats in a day, a complete tyre replacement maybe due. If he / you don't have tubeless on hand, any good quality clincher, 23 or 25 or whatever he prefers, should work fine on the Stans rims (maybe with a tiny bit of swearing to installed) to get back home.

I'd be very interested to know if Schwalbe have indicated an expected lifespan (barring major gashes), or proposed a replacement interval, to Steve.
Or what Steve's experience is over the course of the year - is the team tracking how many miles on each bike/each set of tyres?    Not saying they should, just askin', like.

ATEOTD Schwalbe's motivation is presumably to get more of us buying these things, and I'm prepared to be "sold" if there is evidence to justify the greater up-front cost.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2015, 12:30:15 pm »
ATEOTD Schwalbe's motivation is presumably to get more of us buying these things, and I'm prepared to be "sold" if there is evidence to justify the greater up-front cost.

Depending on what you're comparing them too, they can be had for around €33 each from German sellers right now.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2015, 12:35:17 pm »
Schwalbe are providing tyres on the basis of X,000km for rear and 2 x X,000km for front. I can't remember what X is, at the moment.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2015, 12:47:56 pm »
I've been tubeless since the summer but not done anywhere near the mileage to be able to judge properly, but a couple of small punctures appear to have been sealed by the solution judging by a couple of white spots. The ultremo zx tubeless tyres I tried first were amazing, so expect the new One tyres just ordered will be broadly similar. In terms of cost, I've had to order from German retailers to get them at an acceptable price for me (i.e. close to £30 a pop), as I think I'd just go back to tubes if I had to pay the £50-60 per tyre that many uk retailers are selling at. Hopefully they'll get cheaper, although I accept that with carbon beads they're unlikely to ever get to the same price point as regular folding clinchers.
Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 05:49:54 pm »
ATEOTD Schwalbe's motivation is presumably to get more of us buying these things, and I'm prepared to be "sold" if there is evidence to justify the greater up-front cost.

Depending on what you're comparing them too, they can be had for around €33 each from German sellers right now.

I costed out all I needed for switching to tubeless on a couple of German websites and with rim tape, valves, sealant, sealant syringe, fitting solution (the last two perhaps not strictly necessary but would make the first time experience easier?)   and with two tyres @ €33 the total was nearly €120

compared with Schwalbe Duranos @ €24 ea on one of those same sites.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all anti, in a way I'm quite keen to change despite the extra cost... but my question was not so much about the cost so much as the "payback" period, or rather how many km without visitations.   If the "falling off a cliff" that was referred to earlier happens at 2000 - 3000km then it's not worth it to my mind.   The Duranos are good for at least 5000km with only very occasional visitations.

Interesting that Schwalbe are providing twice as many tyres for the front.... I know it is more 'critical' but I wear rear tyres down much more quickly.
Still - when we can find X.....
(click to show/hide)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2015, 06:05:08 pm »
I have not been very clear. Schwalbe are expecting rear tyres to wear out twice as fast as front tyres for X kilometres total distance.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2015, 06:29:45 pm »
It was perfectly clear.
Welding, fabrication and light engineering available to forum members.

thing1

  • aka Joth
    • TandemThings
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 07:10:01 pm »
The Stan's installation guide calls for two layers of tape on their road rims by default...

Yep I'll definitely do that next time. The guide I was following (on youtube maybe. it was specifically targeted to my SL23 rims anyway) only used one. I think they argued this way makes installation (first time) easier.

Hopefully Steve is using two layers.