Author Topic: Vinyl  (Read 3004 times)

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2015, 01:18:59 pm »
While installing the new amplifier at Fort Larrington over Christmas we plugged in the Colonel's old Ferguson reel-to-reel job and were surprised to find it still worked.  I doubt it had been switched on since 1975.

^^^^^Menthel, are you going to see them next Monday?  My big bro has bought tickets, perhaps forgetting the ear trauma that followed from the last GY!BE gig we went to...

Miss von Brandenburg and I are going.  Last time we saw GY!BE the volume was acceptable, but then again I saw Motörhead at Hammersmith on a night when they'd borrowed Queen's PA in addition to their own.

Where's the smiley with blood running out of its ears?
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: Vinyl
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2015, 01:24:24 pm »
Here is an excellent video comparing three versions of a famous ABBA track everyone knows, one vinyl and two CD releases which demonstrates the horribleness of the loudness wards very clearly.

https://youtu.be/ThTc0K49oVo

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Vince

  • Can't climb; won't climb
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2015, 01:32:26 pm »
I recently emptied a storage unit and as well as The Long Unused mountain Bike, I found a vinyl covered box containing my vinyl collection from the late seventies/early eighties.

This included such delightful articles as Cool for Cats on pink vinyl and Up the Junction on purple vinyl. You don't get that with CDs or downloads.

We even managed to resurrect the JVC turntable to play them on. (I know chain lube isn't appropriate but there was no sewing machine oil available).
216km from Marsh Gibbon

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2015, 01:36:43 pm »
Here is an excellent video comparing three versions of a famous ABBA track everyone knows, one vinyl and two CD releases which demonstrates the horribleness of the loudness wards very clearly.

https://youtu.be/ThTc0K49oVo

Good demonstration, though I reckon the first one should have had a bit more amplification for a fair comparison: It sounds a bit quiet and tinny, until you turn the volume up and you realise what you're missing in the other tracks.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Vinyl
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2015, 01:43:54 pm »
This one is better as he gets the volumes more equal. It really shows the clipping on the compressed track as well. Interestingly in this case the newer version is the less compressed.

https://youtu.be/0EIRF7QW0eA

Listen to the bit where its quieter and there are some snare drums, the difference is really obvious.
Of course some music is pretty unredeemable in that it was recorded badly and clipped to hell on the masters.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2015, 01:47:10 pm »
Flipping the album, that I also miss. Physicality. There's ceremony to playing vinyl. It's like raising demons, it's just not the same if you use an app.

Of course, I'm about to travel and my entire music collection can go with me on a small pocket-sized device. I suspect the vinyl equivalent would challenge my baggage allowance and possibly mean my airplane has to drive through West Sussex rather than fly over it.
!nataS pihsroW

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2015, 02:22:09 pm »
This one is better as he gets the volumes more equal. It really shows the clipping on the compressed track as well. Interestingly in this case the newer version is the less compressed.

https://youtu.be/0EIRF7QW0eA

Listen to the bit where its quieter and there are some snare drums, the difference is really obvious.
Of course some music is pretty unredeemable in that it was recorded badly and clipped to hell on the masters.

I'm not really hearing the difference in the snare (it's a mess of noise and lossy compression artefacts on both versions - I blame youtube and my dodgy hearing[1].), but the vocals in the quieter part sound *much* better on the less compressed version.  And, as he rightly says, more dynamics makes the loud bits louder!

What I'd really like to see is a movement towards doing adjustable range compression on playback.  Nobody doubts the need for less dynamics in the car, or on crappy laptop speakers, or whatever.  But doing it at the mastering stage just ruins it for everyone with a decent sound system, or even mediocre headphones.


[1] I'm now the proud owner of an audiogram showing a 5-15dB loss in the usual 500Hz-6kHz range, which shows that you can have 'perfect' hearing and still not be able to hear things properly.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Vinyl
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2015, 02:22:44 pm »
The other thing about vinyl is I find it hard to beleive such a range of sound can be obtained from a needle bouncing around in a groove in plastic.   I saw a Quest: How its Made show featuring how they press the master and copies of vinyl which was no less amazing.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2015, 02:30:33 pm »
The other thing about vinyl is I find it hard to beleive such a range of sound can be obtained from a needle bouncing around in a groove in plastic.

See that doesn't bother me.  Probably because I grew up with 16bit 44kHz audio as normal, so being able to get an inferior approximation by scraping a needle in a groove or dragging rusty plastic past a coil isn't inherently impressive, except when it's done *really* well.

CD mechanisms aren't even witchcraft, really, just normal everyday engineering (as proven by their persistent unreliability whenever I go near them).

Its helically-scanned tape that breaks my brain.  It's the sort of sneaky underhanded manipulation of the laws of physics that makes sense on paper, but has no right to actually work as a practical solution.  See also: helicopters.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Vinyl
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2015, 02:35:11 pm »
The other thing about vinyl is I find it hard to beleive such a range of sound can be obtained from a needle bouncing around in a groove in plastic.

I helically-scanned tape that breaks my brain.  It's the sort of sneaky underhanded manipulation of the laws of physics that makes sense on paper, but has no right to actually work as a practical solution.  See also: helicopters.

I had forgotten about helically scanned tape ! Years ago I used to do support for tape drives (Emerald Systems if anyone remembers them). And coincidentally Kim yesterday I was doing some consultancy at Airbus Helicopters where they had lots of choppers dissembled to their component parts.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2015, 02:38:29 pm »
There's a whole generation who'll never know what it was like to have ride the tracking knob all the way through a rented movie...

Actually, I suppose there's exactly one generation who will ever know how to set the timer on a VCR.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Biggsy

  • A bodge too far
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Re: Vinyl
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2015, 02:43:09 pm »
The lower dynamic range was probably the reason I used to prefer the sound of vinyl - maybe because I wanted all the music loud, not just the loud bits loud - but not painfully (or very anti-socially) loud, as high dynamic-range recording would be when turned up enough to maker the quiet bits loud.  I could have recreated this with digital, but gradually got used to digital as it is. 

The last vinyl record I bought was My Bloody Valentine's 2013 album, for old time's sake, but I haven't even be bothered to take it out the sleeve, as I got the FLAC at the same time.  Seeing, touching and sniffing the physical attributes are fetishes of the past for me, with a hint of regret, though a novelty for youngsters of today, which explains the vinyl revival, I suspect.  I doubt it's got anything to do with sound at all.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2015, 02:44:33 pm »
The other thing about vinyl is I find it hard to beleive such a range of sound can be obtained from a needle bouncing around in a groove in plastic.   I saw a Quest: How its Made show featuring how they press the master and copies of vinyl which was no less amazing.
I find it hard to believe such a range of sound can be made by a cone of paper with a magnet on the end. And then I listen to some music live and realise it can't!
An ungovernable laughter, a joyous agitation which makes the summer stretching before you seem like an unrolling canvas on which you might draw those first rude pure strokes that are free. (Capote)

Re: Vinyl
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2015, 02:54:10 pm »
This included such delightful articles as Cool for Cats on pink vinyl and Up the Junction on purple vinyl. You don't get that with CDs or downloads.

Ive got "Out of the Blue" on ltd edition blue vinyl, in a gatefold sleeve with a GBFO spaceship on it.  :thumbsup:

Its a bit knackered now mind, as is my copy of The Wall, having been played to death in my youth

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2015, 03:01:21 pm »
That's a point, never mind all this vinyl rubbish, what about reel-to-reel tape?  Now that's an archaic recording system I can get behind.  Sure, it's utterly redundant for anything sensible, and editing is faff in the extreme, but there's something deeply satisfying about taking bits of sound, cutting them up and sticking them back together with sticky tape.   :thumbsup:

(This is probably because about 30 seconds after completing my theatre Revox training, I was handed the manual for the JE510.)
Ooooh, I'm with you on that.  A nice big bank of Revoxes (Revoces?).  Lovely!
Getting there...

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2015, 04:20:46 pm »
Somewhere up there ^^^^ are blue, green, red, grey and picture vinyl and quite possibly other hues which old age and lack of use have consigned to history.

Also the plural of Revox ought, in a sane universe, to be "Revoxen" ;D
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2015, 04:29:55 pm »
The other thing about vinyl is I find it hard to beleive such a range of sound can be obtained from a needle bouncing around in a groove in plastic.   I saw a Quest: How its Made show featuring how they press the master and copies of vinyl which was no less amazing.
I find it hard to believe such a range of sound can be made by a cone of paper with a magnet on the end. And then I listen to some music live and realise it can't!

Top Tip: if you're not going to be in the mosh pit* then get as close to the mixing desk as possible.

* Something sadly lacking from most classical concerts...
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2015, 04:43:37 pm »
If it's next to the lighting desk, you'll get the best visuals, too.
Getting there...

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
    • Occasional wittering
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2015, 05:32:29 pm »
Vinyl is great.  A significant chunk of my income is thanks to vinyl, so very happy to see the current revival in interest (not that it ever went away at our end of the market).
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Re: Vinyl
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2015, 10:04:59 pm »
^^^^^Menthel, are you going to see them next Monday?  My big bro has bought tickets, perhaps forgetting the ear trauma that followed from the last GY!BE gig we went to...

Unfortunately not. Would have been good to see them live and they don't come to the UK very often.

GY!BE are also playing the Roundhouse on 30 June.  Tickets available last week, coz I snaffled some.

This has been a public service announcement...

Re: Vinyl
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2015, 10:33:54 pm »
My Mum, who has on occasion sung solo in the Royal Albert Hall, to this day fails to distinguish between the advantages of stereo vs mono.
Go figure.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2015, 12:09:59 am »
My Mum, who has on occasion sung solo in the Royal Albert Hall, to this day fails to distinguish between the advantages of stereo vs mono.
Go figure.

Maybe if she tried a duet?
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Woofage

  • Ain't no hooves on my bike.
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2015, 11:11:00 am »
My Mum, who has on occasion sung solo in the Royal Albert Hall, to this day fails to distinguish between the advantages of stereo vs mono.
Go figure.

In my previous line of work (audio equipment design and manufacture) I came across a great many audiophiles. I can't recall any of them being musicians.

I also came across a great many people whom loved music and had huge music collections (some of whom were also musicians). Not many of these were audiophiles.
Pen Pusher

Woofage

  • Ain't no hooves on my bike.
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2015, 11:13:41 am »
I didn't know that Ry Cooder's "Bop Till You Drop" was the first all-digital rock album though, coz I'd always thought it to be "Levitation" by Hawkwind.

I thought it was something by Flim & the BB's (don't bother looking them up, the performance* is so sterile it's intolerable).

* If indeed there was one.
Pen Pusher

Zipperhead

  • The cyclist formerly known as Big Helga
Re: Vinyl
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2015, 11:39:25 am »
Well if you were an exceptionally pretentious twat you could have the "best" of both worlds with this

Bluetooth disc plays digital music like vinyl record

Our son does know who Boz Scaggs is, we've done ok as parents.