Author Topic: Base training  (Read 101821 times)

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #1275 on: January 17, 2019, 10:35:21 am »
I'm dieting for a weight of 41kg with no loss of power then I can match Zigzag :D
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Base training
« Reply #1276 on: January 17, 2019, 11:48:53 am »
i did a ramp test this morning and was surprised in a positive way - i reckon i'm fittest i've ever been at 4.7w/kg

looking forward to the "new and improved" workouts ahead (not!)

Wow, I am targeting 3W/kg by PBP.  I do not know what my highest W/kg has ever been.  All I know is, is that I was my fittest on the bike pre Audax and pre turbo.  If only I still had that daily commute. Too much steady endurance pace in recent years. My average speed is climbing back up this winter, so heading the right way.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1277 on: January 17, 2019, 01:44:18 pm »
I might be able to get to 3.25 by PBP. Need to gain 10W and lose 6kg. Or gain 20W and lose 3kg.  If I gain 20W that would be roughly where I got to in 2015 but slightly heavier. I’ll have gears though.

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #1278 on: January 17, 2019, 04:30:39 pm »
Yesterday was a rest day so I spent two hours analysing all the different interval sessions used in the last 12 months to confirm which elicit the most time at ≥90%HRmax (for Seiler zone3 purposes). Just another 2 weeks on the current block then three weeks with a more varied set of workouts based on my findings.

A study was done on the above - guess you missed reading that one Trev?

Re: Base training
« Reply #1279 on: January 17, 2019, 06:13:43 pm »
Did my first ever 20 minute test on my recently acquired Atom yesterday and after a struggle at the beginning produced an average of 195w giving me exactly 3w per kilo. Found it pretty hard although my legs were a little tired after my 5 x 3 minute running intervals at an average HR 0f 140bpm the day before. Reality has taken over where self delusion previously ruled. Hoping for a bit of improvement over the next few months so I can drag McNasty round his 60th mersey 24 after my 74th birthday in July.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1280 on: January 17, 2019, 11:47:03 pm »
Did my first ever 20 minute test on my recently acquired Atom yesterday and after a struggle at the beginning produced an average of 195w giving me exactly 3w per kilo. Found it pretty hard although my legs were a little tired after my 5 x 3 minute running intervals at an average HR 0f 140bpm the day before. Reality has taken over where self delusion previously ruled. Hoping for a bit of improvement over the next few months so I can drag McNasty round his 60th mersey 24 after my 74th birthday in July.

3w/kg at 73. Good starting point!

Re: Base training
« Reply #1281 on: January 18, 2019, 08:19:17 am »
Did my first ever 20 minute test on my recently acquired Atom yesterday and after a struggle at the beginning produced an average of 195w giving me exactly 3w per kilo. Found it pretty hard although my legs were a little tired after my 5 x 3 minute running intervals at an average HR 0f 140bpm the day before. Reality has taken over where self delusion previously ruled. Hoping for a bit of improvement over the next few months so I can drag McNasty round his 60th mersey 24 after my 74th birthday in July.

I like this a lot  👍

Re: Base training
« Reply #1282 on: January 18, 2019, 09:20:55 am »
Hell yeah Aleksdad1! I'm 41 and I've been doing Trainer Road for about 18 months, and I'm only just over 3W/kg.  :thumbsup:

I had a bike fit yesterday - we moved my TT position about loads (and I've ordered a new seatpost to help move me forwards), and tweaked my road bike saddle setup.
This morning I did Fang Mountain. What a revelation.
1. Erg mode finally makes sense - I hated the increasing power requirement of this workout when I had to achieve it by cadence changes or gear changes.
2. No numbness.
3. I increased the intensity to 102% halfway through because under/overs felt entirely doable. I wonder if I should do another FTP test in my new position it's made that much difference! Astonishing how moving the saddle about  1 cm, and the seatpost about 5 mm can feel so different.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48308549-fang-mountain-1

Re: Base training
« Reply #1283 on: January 19, 2019, 10:00:33 pm »
I'm having erratic power levels in erg mode too (Tacx Vortex + Trainerroad).  Takes maybe a minute to adjust to new interval power levels, sometimes goes really high, other times really low. 

I'm going to try out a range of things before I go to Tacx support.
- adjust the TR power smoothing in settings to a longer period
- use it with power match turned off - ie using the Tacx power not my PM
- do a workout on the Tacx app to see if it is Trainerroad or Tacx problem
- use Bluetooth connection rather than ant+.

The problem was power match. 
Smoothing doesn't affect the resistance, it only smooths the numbers on the screen.
When I did a workout on the tacx app the power was Rock solid. Even when I played around with taking cadence right down and up.
In TR I had to tell it to forget my pm, not just turn off power match.
I then did a ramp test and it was pretty solid. It wouldn't ramp up on about the ninth step but flipping into the big ring got it working again, don't know why.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #1284 on: January 19, 2019, 10:10:13 pm »


I then did a ramp test and it was pretty solid. It wouldn't ramp up on about the ninth step but flipping into the big ring got it working again, don't know why.

it could be that the trainer can only provide so much braking/resistance. changing into a big ring makes it easier for the trainer, aiui.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Base training
« Reply #1285 on: January 20, 2019, 07:09:28 am »
Did my first ever 20 minute test on my recently acquired Atom yesterday and after a struggle at the beginning produced an average of 195w giving me exactly 3w per kilo. Found it pretty hard although my legs were a little tired after my 5 x 3 minute running intervals at an average HR 0f 140bpm the day before. Reality has taken over where self delusion previously ruled. Hoping for a bit of improvement over the next few months so I can drag McNasty round his 60th mersey 24 after my 74th birthday in July.

Very impressive!  :thumbsup:

If I remember correctly, I think the last time I rode the 24 (3 years ago?), didn't McNasty have to ride on his own because you were unwell?

Re: Base training
« Reply #1286 on: January 20, 2019, 08:39:36 am »

[...] The problem was power match [...]


I used to have a Tacx Vortex and (Stages) PM and was never happy with how these worked with TrainerRoad using power match. What made me most suspicious was a subjective variation in easiness of sessions, and a power graph line that was sometimes very spiky, and sometimes very smooth. Although I never got to the bottom of why, I suspected sometimes TR latched on to the PM, and sometimes the Vortex without ever "matching" them properly. In the end I "upgraded" to a Cycleops Hammer which "just works".

Re: Base training
« Reply #1287 on: January 20, 2019, 03:56:50 pm »
Power match seems to be working for me again now. I wonder if it's just spiky intervals it had issues with. I calibrated the trainer and the PM before I started. I'm well pleased with how today's ride went. 5x10 minutes at threshold over the course of 90 minutes should be hard - it was, but it was also doable. I have 1 more week of work before a rest week and then a retest.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48483522-kaweah

I also built myself a trainer desk out of some old shelves. It's not exactly strong and stable, but it won't fall over and hopefully I can put my laptop (and drinks/food/tissues) on there and use ANT+ (which will mean I'll get power from both my pedals instead of just the left). It should also mean I get used to looking up a bit more. That's the theory...

Re: Base training
« Reply #1288 on: January 21, 2019, 10:11:21 am »
I am allowed back on the road again.   I've worked my way up to 12hrs a week of turbo work, but I'll start to build my commutes back in and add a bit of weekend riding.   I rode in this morning and can now put weight on my hand again so we're going on the right direction.   I'm not sure it would handle a few hours of riding, though.

2hr road ride yesterday resulted in quite a sore wrist.  Clearly some way to go.  I’ll need to mix and match turbo and road work for a while.

10hrs on the turbo this week but 6hrs on the road.   I sense the road miles weren’t very helpful fitness wise even if they were good for the soul.

8.5hrs on the turbo and 10hrs on the road last week.   Longest road ride was 2hrs.   The hand is starting to strengthen but it's a long road.   As long as I can get round a couple of 200s in March things should be fine.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1289 on: January 21, 2019, 11:11:32 am »
4.4km rowing race on Saturday. No so long ago following that with a 3x20 sweet spot workout the next day would not have gone well. Legs a little heavy but nowhere near failure. Heart and lungs were “meh, is that all you got?” 

More rowing this evening so might be less blase after that.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1290 on: January 22, 2019, 09:18:20 am »
The last 2 workouts were great - this one was well hard! I didn't take any rests or backpedals, so I wasn't quite on my limit, but I must have been really close.
3 sets of 5 intervals each 1.5 minutes on, with 1 minute off in between (and 5 minutes between intervals). The "on" parts were from 121% of FTP to 125% FTP (stepping up).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48642613-bashful-2
Not helped by doing it at 6am and it being absolutely freezing, but at least I got it done. :)

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Base training
« Reply #1291 on: January 22, 2019, 11:44:54 am »
The last 2 workouts were great - this one was well hard! I didn't take any rests or backpedals, so I wasn't quite on my limit, but I must have been really close.
3 sets of 5 intervals each 1.5 minutes on, with 1 minute off in between (and 5 minutes between intervals). The "on" parts were from 121% of FTP to 125% FTP (stepping up).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48642613-bashful-2
Not helped by doing it at 6am and it being absolutely freezing, but at least I got it done. :)

Good effort! These really hard efforts I prefer to do early morning otherwise I spend all day with a sense of impending doom!  :thumbsup:

Re: Base training
« Reply #1292 on: January 22, 2019, 07:52:21 pm »
The impending doom thing isn’t just me then.  I welcomed a late conference call at work and then got snowed on on the ride home.  Will now defer that session to tomorrow.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1293 on: January 23, 2019, 09:24:37 pm »
The impending doom thing isn’t just me then.  I welcomed a late conference call at work and then got snowed on on the ride home.  Will now defer that session to tomorrow.

Caught up. Feel better now but stairs are an issue.

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #1294 on: January 24, 2019, 06:29:37 am »
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.


TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Base training
« Reply #1295 on: January 24, 2019, 06:46:56 am »
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?

Re: Base training
« Reply #1296 on: January 24, 2019, 07:48:25 am »
Power match seems to be working for me again now. I wonder if it's just spiky intervals it had issues with. I calibrated the trainer and the PM before I started.

Good to hear.  I've not been able to get Power Match working for me.  I've now tried doing a couple of sessions with my power meter disconnected so using my trainer to measure power.

That works to the extent that it enables me to do a workout with a steady resistance level, rather than bouncing all over the place with Power Match, so that is good. 

However, I'm also recording my power meter output at the same time via my Garmin.  What I find is that there is significant difference between the levels of power measured by the trainer and by the power meter (average is about 15W) and, more importantly, it is not a consistent difference.  I did some under and over intervals last week and, for one of the overs, I spun up to a high cadence.  I felt the resistance fall and although my trainer power / trainerroad said the power had gone up, it actually felt easier than the previous under.  My power meter said the power was lower, and my heart rate started to fall.

It's now at least usable, but I'm not confident that I am getting exactly the work-out that I am supposed to be getting.

I did a short session on the Tacx app and the power seemed rock solid.  Next I'll do a longer session and see how it behaves, comparing to PM.   I've also got another Stages PM so can swap that in to see if there is an issue with the one I am using.

I've asked TR where they think the issues is: Stages PM, their software or Tacx trainer - but no answer yet. 

Re: Base training
« Reply #1297 on: January 24, 2019, 10:11:46 am »
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?

Just Google "drivo erg mode" and read some of the threads on the Elite forum :)

Some of that stuff is pretty old, and the firmware has been updated since, but the Drivo still "hunts" the power setting when in Erg Mode, whereas other trainers seem to lock it in much more steadily. Elite say this is the Drivo being more "honest", and that other trainers (Tacx wheel-off trainers, various Kickrs) do much more smoothing to make the graphs look tidy.

I dunno - I pretty-much never use the Drivo in Erg Mode.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1298 on: January 24, 2019, 11:06:05 am »
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?
I don't know what app you are using, but the key I've found is to be spinning at a high cadence (>95 rpm) in the 10 seconds before the high power interval starts. If I do that (TR with Tacx Bushido Smart) then the second the interval starts the resistance spikes, but it settles down very quickly. If I'm not paying attention or spinning really slowly for some reason, then the resistance flies up, I can't maintain the low rpm and as I drop the rpm the resistance gets worse and it's a downward spiral.
Apologies if that's teaching anyone to suck eggs - I'm new to erg mode too. ;)

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Base training
« Reply #1299 on: January 24, 2019, 11:14:44 am »
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?

Just Google "drivo erg mode" and read some of the threads on the Elite forum :)

Some of that stuff is pretty old, and the firmware has been updated since, but the Drivo still "hunts" the power setting when in Erg Mode, whereas other trainers seem to lock it in much more steadily. Elite say this is the Drivo being more "honest", and that other trainers (Tacx wheel-off trainers, various Kickrs) do much more smoothing to make the graphs look tidy.

I dunno - I pretty-much never use the Drivo in Erg Mode.

Cheers

Great video from Shane Miller on this that explains to effect on which gear you're in and the flywheel effect. I'll give Erg mode another go with superFTP efforts using the big ring this time and see what happens.