Author Topic: Sturmey Archer fitting  (Read 4670 times)

alanp

Sturmey Archer fitting
« on: 02 October, 2008, 11:26:35 pm »
Hi,
I'm thinking of getting a hub gear wheel, 27", either second hand, or building one up.
Question1: will there be any problems fitting it to a 70's Falcon frame with longish semi-horizontal dropouts; will I need any special retaining nuts, or do you need specific dropouts to fit SA hubs.
Question 2: SJ cycles sell 3 and 5 speed hubs at a reasonable price. 5 speed sprinter sounds ideal-any thoughts on this hub.
Any help appreciated.
Alan.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #1 on: 03 October, 2008, 06:38:06 am »
No special frame required.  If you want the band-on top tube pulley and "fulcrum" I can send you them, because I had braze-ons fitted instead.  If it has the modern wider dropouts (10mm wide slot) I can let you have the special 9.5mm anti-rotation washers too.  My bike has the older narrow ones.

You run the cable in outer from the shifter to the fulcrum (a cable stop) near the front of the top tube, then it's inner all they way.  The pulley goes at the seat cluster so the cable can turn the corner and go down the seatstay to the hub.  Don't run it round the BB - there are (it transpires) several good reasons not to.

I'd get an older AW, which is oil-lubricated.  They rarely, if ever, need servicing apart from a drop of oil every now and then.  Newer ones have no oil port and are greased - this lasts about 2 years before they need stripping and servicing.

SA 5-speeds are terribly inefficient in bottom gear - the drive has to go through two epicyclic gear trains.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #2 on: 03 October, 2008, 10:11:17 am »
Check your overlocknut dimension beforehand.  A lot of SA hubs are considerably narrower than current dropout widths (particularly older SA hubs).  The axle often is not long enough to allow fitting too many more spacers and changing the axle is a faff.

SA 5sp hubs have 2 epicyclic drivetrains but they only use one at a time, never both together.  One is a wide range 3sp, the other is an extra-wide range 3sp, losing a gear because both have direct drive.  Reason for extra drag in 1st and 5th is because SA saved money by not changing the tooth profiles to match the changed gear wheel diameters.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #3 on: 03 October, 2008, 10:17:03 am »
If you have 120mm dropouts you need a hub with a 6 1/4" axle.  You can space it out to exactly 120mm - it will be 114mm or something out of the box.  A cheap way to get a modern SA hub is to buy one of the complete new Merc wheels for sale on eBay (£40 plus £10 postage) with an S-RF3 hub, and cut the hub out.  The axle is long enough, longer than on a Brompton S-RF3 (which are specially made as far as I can tell).

You may need a spacer outside the RH dropout, under the axle/guide nut.  This is because the guide nut must be in the correct position relative to the end of the axle, so you can see the position of the indicator spindle.

LWAB - thanks for the correction.  Apparently 1st gear is so draggy that the pedalling torque is lower if you stay in second.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #4 on: 03 October, 2008, 11:32:51 am »
LWAB - thanks for the correction.  Apparently 1st gear is so draggy that the pedalling torque is lower if you stay in second.

Not in my experience. I used on in a track frame to ride across Saddleworth moor, 5 days a week, for 18 months.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #5 on: 03 October, 2008, 01:22:21 pm »
Well, I've not used one myself - I'm going on what I've read (from multiple sources).  They may improve when heavily run-in, and SA quality control was hit-or-miss from the 60s onwards, so you may have had a good 'un.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

border-rider

Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #6 on: 03 October, 2008, 01:32:45 pm »
LWAB - thanks for the correction.  Apparently 1st gear is so draggy that the pedalling torque is lower if you stay in second.

Not in my experience. I used on in a track frame to ride across Saddleworth moor, 5 days a week, for 18 months.

I used one for a few years around SW Wales and West Yorkshire  (including a load of offroad) and OK, there are some hills where you need the very low bottom gear - so I'm not sure if the pedalling torque thing holds - but on gradients that it was possible to turn the pedals over on in 2nd, it was faster than 1st

My abiding memory is spinning up a hill in first and being passed by a portly pensioner on fixed :)

After the hub exploded (another trait of the 5s, along with an enhanced propensity to slip: the old ones really barely worked in that respect) I put a fixed wheel on the same bike and it just flew

I'd say that for simplicity and efficiency go with 3 unless you have a mountain to climb.

<slightly OT>

Falcon made a bike until the mid 70s that had a 531 plain gauge  frame and an SA hub gear, so your 70s Falcon frame might be a decent candidate for a hub gear.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #7 on: 03 October, 2008, 01:43:00 pm »
The perfect frame for a Sturmey is one with the old, narrower, dropout slots.  Although you should still use the cast anti-rotation serrated washers (because they prevent axle creep), torque reaction* is provided by the flattened axle anyway.  A 70s frame probably has modern 10mm slots.


*a hub gear, being a torque as well as a speed-changing device, creates a reaction at the frame so the axle will try to twist backward in low gear and forward in high gear.  There's no torque change in normal gear, where the sprocket is connected straight to the hub shell.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #8 on: 03 October, 2008, 03:26:05 pm »
slap me for not reading thoroughly.

My experience is of the THREE speed hub. this is a wonderous bit of clockwork.

I have no experience of the 5.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #9 on: 03 October, 2008, 04:21:09 pm »
I don't know what SJSC are doing deals for, but this bloke (Derek, I think he's called) is selling a narrowish 5-speed SA hub for 50 Quid.

I had one last year off him and it worked a treat...
Haggerty F, Haggerty R, Tomkins, Noble, Carrick, Robson, Crapper, Dewhurst, Macintyre, Treadmore, Davitt.

alanp

Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #10 on: 03 October, 2008, 10:52:08 pm »
Hi,
Thanks for the replies and thanks for the offers Rogerzilla, I'd like to have those items off of you-I'll PM my address; let me know what you want for them plus postage. I've measured the dropouts and they are 10mm width slot, 120mm OLD. SJS cycles have a 3 speed steel hub plus all of the fittings for £40, (any great weight penalty over the alloy shelled hubs?) also a 700c wheel with 3 speed, shop soiled with alloy rim & plated spokes for £50. I've also seen on e-bay a NOS 36 and 40 hole 3 speed. So quite a few options. Would the 700c wheel look a bit small on a frame for 27" wheels? Some new deep drop brakes are on the shopping list.
On the subject of anti-torque washers, do these fit on the outside of the dropout; I'm still not too clear on this bit.
SJS also have Sram 3 speed hubs for £80. I've got one of these on my 6 speed Brompton and it works well. Are the Sram hubs any better than the SA's?
It would be a lot easier if anyone had a 21" bike with SA gears to sell me?
Thanks again,
Alan.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #11 on: 03 October, 2008, 11:10:18 pm »
OK - on the RH axle outside the dropout in this shot, there is the guide nut/axle nut, then a 3mm spacer (only necessary to keep the axle end in the "porthole" for visual adjustment), then the cast anti-rotation washer, which just fits into the slot.  Note the brass washers under the spoke heads to compensate for the thin steel flanges.  The hub is a 1987 AW.  The black plastic protector on the end of the nut is important, although rarely seen on working bikes.  It stops the chain getting bent if the bike falls, or is laid, on its RH side.



This shot (I need to finish building the bike up tomorrow) shows the shifter, which I've mounted upside-down as a bar-con, the cable stop and the pulley.  You'll just have band-on versions instead.



If you want to fit a trigger shifter to drop bars, you'll find they're too fat.  You need to get a longer M5 bolt and put a bend in it (hold it in a vice and whack it with a hammer) so the shifter clamp works when opened up a bit.  Crude but pretty standard among Sturmey tinkerers.

Gearing on mine, incidentally, is 41 x 18, which gives 45", 60" and 80" gears.

An alloy shell saves 4oz/113g.

The SRAM hubs are fine but SA hubs are more widely understood by bike mechanics, and parts are easy to get for the common ones (an K651A "long" AM axle has eluded me so far!).
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

alanp

Re: Sturmey Archer fitting
« Reply #12 on: 03 October, 2008, 11:32:13 pm »
Great stuff-much clearer now. :thumbsup: