Turbo Trubble

[Ham]

For the next few weeks I want to be able to use a trainer to... train. I hate the bloody things, so I can't see myself continuing but?

I've got a few years old Tacx Basic - a reasonable (?) mag brake unit with digital display giving cadence, watts output, and a "slope" that goes from -3 (wtf?) to 9 which is supposedly 9% equivalent. I have my suspicions about the accuracy of the readout, getting a cadence of 85 feels more like 100+ I have mated it up to my old muddy fox MTB frame with a trainer rear tye, converted to a single speed with about a 70" gear. Rolling along a "4" slope I can work up a sweat, "9" however is nowhere near enough resistance to stand, and the main purpose of this is to try to increase my (virtually non existent) climbing stamina.

I'm not sure that a friction trainer will ever provide the resistance needed for an out the saddle ride, but on the other hand it really ought to.

I am wondering how to improve either this setup, or to get another trainer for the short term. Are fluid trainers any better? Should I use a geared bike? Should I use the direct link type (where you take the rear wheel off and engage the chain with the trainer? I know that a workout on the spinning bikes at the gym feels more effective, it is still difficult riding out the saddle but possible.

Any suggestions?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Use a geared bike to increase the overall resistance. Fluid trainers tend to reduce resistance as they heat up. Mag trainers have a limited resistance range and it is silly expecting that a random trainer could cope with a single gear bike.

[Ham]

Whooops. Rather than edit I should say that it is a 90" gear, not much more in a geared bike

[loadsabikes]

As I am sure you know, the only real way to improve your climbing, is to get out and ride hills

[Ham]

Thank you for that perspective, London is well known for its tough climbs, I should have thought of that myself.

(I do try to get out at weekends but RL presents the occasional conflict at present)

[Ham]

Best also add I'm 90-ish kg, and a bit of a masher by style, trying to turn into a spinner.


Thinking about it, a very quick change would be to put the biggest gear I could on the bike, I'll try that.

[Dave_C]

I'm told rollers help in developing a good spinning technique. I was told early on that mashing up hills uses more energy than sitting and spinning so forced myself to spin every hill I rode up. Its only two years later that I.have started to occassionally mash up climbs. You just have to be strict with yourself and sit and spin up hills. I try changing down everyso oftern until I find it uncomfortable spinning then pop back up a grar, to stop me getting in the habit of pushing big gears.

If your training bike has a huge gear (90" is the length of chain right?) then I don't see this being usefull in developing a spinning style, if thats what your after?

[Ham]

I reckon spinning fast is a cadence of 80 - 90, with this setup I can hit and sustain this seated and the range of resistance works for this, but I can't do anything out the saddle, just doesn't work. Sprinting out the saddle is a no-no, whatever the resistance. I suppose I'm comparing to the spinning bikes which are fixed, and have a marked flywheel effect and mixing the cadence and resistance over the workout time seems to be pretty effective.

Maybe I need to adjust my expectations?

edit:

If your training bike has a huge gear (90" is the length of chain right?) then I don't see this being usefull in developing a spinning style, if thats what your after?

90" is in gear inches -  the effective size of a wheel you are trying to turn, a small gear on an MTB can go down to 25" or even lower, a high gear on a road bike is 115" or higher.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Your cadence reduces when you are out of the saddle. Mag trainers (as with wind and fluid trainers) only have small flywheels and provide resistance proportional to wheel speed. The long gap between 'lumpy' power strokes means that the wheel tends to excessively slow down between each pedal stroke. Try securing weights to the spokes/ rim to increase the flywheel effect. NB launching wayward weights around the room isn't a good idea.

I do think you are going about things the wrong way. Your bike isn't rigidly fixed vertically when you actually climb out of the saddle. You would do better on stair-stepper machines or climbing real steps.

[Ham]

Your cadence reduces when you are out of the saddle. Mag trainers (as with wind and fluid trainers) only have small flywheels and provide resistance proportional to wheel speed. The long gap between 'lumpy' power strokes means that the wheel tends to excessively slow down between each pedal stroke. Try securing weights to the spokes/ rim to increase the flywheel effect. NB launching wayward weights around the room isn't a good idea.

I do think you are going about things the wrong way. Your bike isn't rigidly fixed vertically when you actually climb out of the saddle. You would do better on stair-stepper machines or climbing real steps.

That'll be why it's easier on the spinning bike, for sure, but I would have thought it should be possible on the trainer?

As far as the right way is concerned, I'm not training for a race, I'm hoping to increase my ability to deal with extended climbing, and I  have noticed that the spinning sessions seem to improve my ability to continue to pump out, say 250W, for longer - which has to be beneficial. As to the way it translates into pushing my bike up riding up the Pyrenees, that will have to be seen.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I have trained for racing on a turbo and very low cadence stuff just doesn't work without compromises.

The resistance profile (with varying wheel speed) of a trainer doesn't match the resistance profile on the road.Try doing a standing start, cadence varying from 0 to 90 rpm and changing resistance with each pedal stroke. There is just no way to get the same resistance/ feel as the real thing.

If you think you are going to be climbing out of the saddle for long periods in the Pyranees, you are kidding yourself. Almost everything there involves winching yourself up for extended periods.

[Ham]

If you think you are going to be climbing out of the saddle for long periods in the Pyranees, you are kidding yourself.

Ohh noooooooooo

Just getting out the saddle helps now and again, and brings other musckles into play wot I don't normally use. It's hard so it must be good, no?

[jogler]

I rarely use the turbo since acquiring a set of rollers.
My perception is that using a geared bike on rollers provides a more challenging,varied & thorough ride than is possible on the turbo.
Unfortunately I have a low boredom threshold & find 30mins about the most I can do on either contraption.

ymmv

[Ningishzidda]

http://www.cptips.com/climb.htm

Have a read of this.

Bryan Steel comes to where I work to give a 'cycling up hills' masterclass each year. I'm booked on the next session in May. I'll tell you what he says.

[LEE]

I bought a GIST Magnetic for £100

As the review says, it gives enough resistance to let you honk out of the saddle (at full resistance, in top gear, I can't turn the pedals).

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/accessories/resistance-trainer/product/review-gist-magnetic-28812

For motivation I downloaded some "Sufferfest" videos and play them on my laptop.

[Ham]

....which appears now to be discontinued.

Are those vids as good as they look? (ie, worth the cost, realising that's subjective)

[eck]

I rarely use the turbo since acquiring a set of rollers.
My perception is that using a geared bike on rollers provides a more challenging,varied & thorough ride than is possible on the turbo.
Unfortunately I have a low boredom threshold & find 30mins about the most I can do on either contraption.

ymmv

Me too jogler. The boredom is a problem, admittedly. I get round it, a bit, by mixing both in one session. Today, I did an hour altogether: 10 min low resistance warm-up on the turbo; 15 min intervals on the rollers, increasing gear from 96" to 108"'; 5 min easy on the turbo; 20 mins hard on 100" on rollers; then a 10min warm-down on the turbo. I find that breaking up the session into chunks helps to reduce the boredom. Music helps, obviously.
Perhaps not very scientific, but probably more beneficial than creeping along on our snowy roads, or sitting on the sofa scoffing chocolate hob-nobs. 

[LEE]

....which appears now to be discontinued.

Are those vids as good as they look? (ie, worth the cost, realising that's subjective)

I honestly think so.

Obviously there's nothing forcing you to push as hard as they say on the video but there's something about seeing a group go for a breakaway (you're seeing the world from a TDF motorcycle camera) that makes you try to chase them down.

The effort level is always displayed, which I have now translated into clicks on the resistance lever (although you could use gears) so it's a matter of keeping up the cadence at a given resistance.  The music is OK but I made my own "mix-tape" and I listen on noise-cancelling headphones to muffle the whirring.

I'm usually drowning in sweat after an hour so it's good exercise (even when it's literally freezing in the garage).

[Ham]

....which appears now to be discontinued.

Are those vids as good as they look? (ie, worth the cost, realising that's subjective)

I honestly think so.

Obviously there's nothing forcing you to push as hard as they say on the video but there's something about seeing a group go for a breakaway (you're seeing the world from a TDF motorcycle camera) that makes you try to chase them down.

The effort level is always displayed, which I have now translated into clicks on the resistance lever (although you could use gears) so it's a matter of keeping up the cadence at a given resistance.  The music is OK but I made my own "mix-tape" and I listen on noise-cancelling headphones to muffle the whirring.

I'm usually drowning in sweat after an hour so it's good exercise (even when it's literally freezing in the garage).

I'd second that, they are cool.  More a measure of how far I had buried myself than the reality, but at one stage as I mopped with a towel and chucked it onto the bars I thought - Oh Noes! it's gonna get caught in the front wheel     

[Hillbilly]

I also recommend the Sufferfest videos.  I was introduced to them by my local club, and bought some for private consumption.  When I say some, I mean most of them (only Blender, Hell hath no Fury and Extra shot:20 missing from collection).

The video comparison on the site (a table with a summary of the program and an indication of difficulty) is a useful way to get a feel of what you want.  Likewise, there was a venn diagram that is useful:

http://www.thesufferfest.com/videocast-workouts/clarity-among-sufferfest-cycling-videos/

Be warned, the "get a bucket" videos are not joking.  Generally 45 minutes of "why am I doing this to myself".  But gives great fitness gains.

My own favourite is Angels.

[Ningishzidda]

Training vids are useful, but nothing beats the sound of a real human being shouting down your earhole.

[spesh]

Apropos of nothing, I keep reading the thread title as "Turbo Tribble".

A normal Tribble is fecund enough as it is... 

[Martin 14]

I bought a GIST Magnetic for £100

As the review says, it gives enough resistance to let you honk out of the saddle (at full resistance, in top gear, I can't turn the pedals).

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/accessories/resistance-trainer/product/review-gist-magnetic-28812

For motivation I downloaded some "Sufferfest" videos and play them on my laptop.

I like the look of them

[Martin 14]

I can add: having down loaded and tried one, its one hell of a work-out my legs feel that belong to someone else!